Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11579

 1                          Wednesday, 16 May 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, everybody.  Madam Registrar, could you

 6    call the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, ma'am.  All the accused are here.  I

10    don't notice any absences amongst the Defence teams.  Prosecution is

11    Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.

12            All right.  I think there are some preliminaries, according to

13    what we have been told.  Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

14            MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Judges.

15    Good morning, colleagues in the courtroom.

16            Indeed, Mr. President, with your leave I would like to address the

17    Trial Chamber concerning the Prosecution's motion filed on the 14th of May

18    in the afternoon, as mentioned yesterday.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

20            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Mr. President, as

21    mentioned yesterday, as a follow-up to the filing of the Prosecution

22    motion requesting protective measures for Witness PW-108, which included

23    for the first time, as you know, disclosure of an interview conducted with

24    the witness, as well as a summary which was prepared along the lines of

25    Rule 65 ter, we have met with our client at the Detention Unit yesterday,

Page 11580

 1    with a view to, first, taking stock of this new material and, number 2,

 2    assessing its impact on the ability of the accused, Drago Nikolic, to

 3    conduct his defence.

 4            As a result of this consultation process, I am now in a position

 5    to state that more than ever we are of the view that serious prejudice to

 6    the accused Drago Nikolic results from this Prosecution motion.

 7    Accordingly, we have decided to file a motion for reconsideration of two

 8    decisions rendered by the Trial Chamber on 6 December 2006 and 9 February

 9    2007.

10            As will be seen from this motion, which we hope to file no later

11    than tomorrow, 17 May, because it does require some preparation and we are

12    not in a position to do it today, our objective is to have this witness,

13    namely P108 [sic], removed.

14            JUDGE KWON:  Could you give me a minute?

15                          [Trial Chamber confers]

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Mr. Bourgon, if you are going to file a

17    motion, we prefer not to hear anything further from you and wait for the

18    motion and then hear what the Prosecution has to say and then decide it.

19            MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, we believe that I need, and that is

20    my -- the aim of my -- of what I wish to say this morning, is to highlight

21    the context of this motion, which is necessary --

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  We don't need to hear it now, Mr. Bourgon.  So I

23    suggest that you sit down, unless you have anything else to state which is

24    not related to the motion.  You sit down and prepare the motion and let

25    us -- let it take its normal course.  We don't want to hear submissions on

Page 11581

 1    a motion that hasn't still been prepared.

 2            MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, I will then not speak about the

 3    motion but simply tell you or inform the Trial Chamber, which is the aim

 4    of what I wish to say this morning, that we believe that this is a serious

 5    motion but why I want to address the Trial Chamber orally this morning

 6    before the motion is to inform the Trial Chamber that as a result of this

 7    motion that we will file, we will be asking the Court not to proceed with

 8    13 witnesses, because we are no longer ready to cross-examine these

 9    witnesses.  And I can inform you the numbers of these witnesses or I can

10    sit down and --

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon, stop, please.  Mr. Bourgon, sit down.

12    We've heard enough on this.  Please file your -- prepare and file your

13    motion and it will be dealt with in due course.  Finished.

14            Let's get this new witness, please, unless there are other

15    preliminaries.

16                          [Trial Chamber confers]

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Is this witness that we -- is about to enter the

18    courtroom amongst those 13 witnesses?

19            MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, I was about to inform that because of

20    this witness, because he's already here and as a gesture of goodwill, we

21    want to proceed and we will proceed with this witness, with the caveat

22    that he may be recalled --

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  That is very much appreciated.

24            MR. BOURGON:  -- at a later points for further cross-examination.

25    Mr. President, I want to put on the record that I disagree with being

Page 11582

 1    prevented from addressing the Court this morning on such an important

 2    issue that goes directly to the rights of the accused.

 3            Thank you, Mr. President.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  That is our conclusion.  Please come forward with

 5    your motion and we will give it...

 6            Mr. Thayer, if it's about this motion or about what Mr. Bourgon

 7    stated then leave it and incorporate what you have to say in your reply.

 8            MR. THAYER:  I wouldn't dare at this point, Mr. President.  I have

 9    one exhibit from yesterday to tender.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I'm coming to that.  Yes, Mr. Meek?

11            MR. MEEK:  Just before the tender process, Your Honour, I want the

12    Trial Chamber to be on alert that the Defence of Ljubisa Beara also joins

13    Mr. Bourgon.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We have no problems with motion.  That

15    is your right and we'll give each motion due consideration.

16            Yes.

17            MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, there is one more thing I need to say

18    at this point and it is simply that there is one issue that needs to be

19    determined before the motion is filed, and I've asked my colleague this

20    morning to inform me whether annex C, which was joined to the motion in

21    August, which was filed by the Prosecution, that was an ex parte motion

22    given to the Trial Chamber, whether this annex C is the same as annex B

23    which was given to the Trial Chamber in December.  I've asked my colleague

24    and I require this information before we can file the motion, and

25    Mr. President, I wish to add that this motion for the sake of judicial

Page 11583

 1    expediency could be done also orally tomorrow morning if that was the wish

 2    of the Trial Chamber.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think the points involved are serious enough to

 4    merit a written motion.  Can you give Mr. Bourgon an answer to his query?

 5            MR. THAYER:  I can, Mr. President.  Since my friend's inquiry we

 6    have looked at the document in question.  I believe we can disclose it

 7    confidentially.  It is substantially the same information that has been

 8    disclosed during the course of yesterday's proceeding with the exception

 9    of a bottom part of the document which is not pertinent to the witness at

10    all.  It concerns a completely different witness.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Because the August one covered more than one person.

12    All right.

13            So let's bring in the next witness.  Mr. Bourgon, if you require

14    more than tomorrow for the filing of the motion, you will have more time.

15            MR. BOURGON:  We will do as quickly as we can, Mr. President.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

17            MR. BOURGON:  We will do our best.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Before we bring in the witness, documents.

19            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just one exhibit with respect to the

20    last witness it's P00377, the operations duty officer notebook.  The

21    exhibit had been mistakenly identified in e-court as being previously

22    admitted through PW-104.  We have double checked.  It has not.  So at this

23    time we would offer the exhibit in its entirety.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objections, Mr. Haynes?

25            MR. HAYNES:  Yes.  It's not fully translated.  It's been

Page 11584

 1    translated in three tranches.  It's a document that runs to 188 pages.

 2    And it's been translated - I can give the ERN numbers - 46 pages the first

 3    time, seven pages the second time, and three pages the third.

 4    Accordingly --

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's 56 pages.

 6            MR. HAYNES:  Less than a third of it has been translated, and I

 7    know because we have been in discussion, if we leave it marked for

 8    identification purposes, it will remain marked for identification purposes

 9    probably until we've all packed up our bags and left this Tribunal because

10    we have all of us trying to persuade the translation service to translate

11    the whole document without any success.  Accordingly, I believe it's

12    inappropriate to admit the whole of this document, all 188 pages of it, as

13    an exhibit.  What I've suggested to the Prosecution is that they give to

14    each of the translated passages or portions new 65 ter numbers, and that

15    they are then admitted into evidence and there would be no objection to

16    that.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

18            MR. HAYNES:  The complicating factor is we have had certain pages

19    of it translated that are not within the Prosecution's sections that are

20    translated and we've had to go back through the exhibits that you have

21    rejected for tendering on the basis that P377 was in evidence when it was

22    not.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

24            MR. HAYNES:  That's my suggestion as to how to deal with P377, and

25    without being overly technical, I do object to it being admitted in its

Page 11585

 1    entirety because it's not a language of the Tribunal, but I also in due

 2    course will have to ask you to admit certain passages which we've put to

 3    witnesses in the last couple of days.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's deal with the objection, first.

 5    Yes, what's your position on what has been suggested --

 6            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we can certainly have the entire

 7    notebook translated.  We will coordinate with our friends to get that

 8    done.  I understand that there has been some other portions that have

 9    already been translated.  We will work with them to translate the entire

10    notebook.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  One question, and again it's based on our ignorance

12    of what supposedly could happen in the future.  This document has been

13    made use of already by -- during the testimony of other witnesses.  Is

14    it-- are you planning, either you or any of the Defence teams, to make use

15    of it any further with other witnesses?

16            MR. THAYER:  Absolutely, Mr. President.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Then it's also the case of having it translated

18    within a specified time limit.  Not just in a vacuum.  You said -- you

19    spoke with some authority, as if you are sure that you can have it

20    translated.  How far does that go?

21            MR. THAYER:  If we push, Your Honour, we have managed to get

22    pretty big projects done.  I'll have to check to find out what the

23    realistic estimate is, what we are really talking about, but we will do

24    everything we can to get it translated.  We've done that before with other

25    large projects.

Page 11586

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  In the meantime until this is done and

 2    hopefully this is done at the earliest and in time for it being able to be

 3    used for future witnesses if possible, do you object to the proposition of

 4    Mr. Haynes to have the parts that are already translated admitted with

 5    three different 65 ter numbers and then eventually 377 will replace them?

 6            MR. THAYER:  No.  At this point, I think that we can work with

 7    that, Your Honour.  No objection at this point to that.  It's not the --

 8                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  I'll give the floor to Mr. Meek first and then deal

10    with the matter.  It's all -- you're still on this issue?

11            MR. MEEK:  Yes.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

13            MR. MEEK:  Mr. President, Your Honours we object, the Defence of

14    Ljubisa Beara, we object to the admission of this on several grounds.

15    First, it has not been translated.  Secondly, there has been no showing of

16   chain of custody. Thirdly, the witness who previously testified,(redacted),

17    who mentioned this notebook, only testified he saw his name in it and a

18    phone number.  The witness yesterday only -- only testified in regards to

19    two pages in his own handwriting and if you recall his testimony, he

20    didn't know anything about other entries, he didn't know who made those

21    entries, he's not an expert, he said, he couldn't tell us a lot of things,

22    so again, there has been no foundation for this document, no authenticity

23    and no chain of custody.  It should not be admitted at this point, in its

24    entirety.

25            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I'm only standing to seek a redaction.

Page 11587

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  But that person did not have protective

 2    measures, did he?

 3            MR. THAYER:  No, he absolutely did, Your Honour, and I believe my

 4    friend was referring --

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 6            MR. MEEK:  I apologise.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's okay, Mr. Meek.  Still I remind you that

 8    yesterday, for example, you went practically through the entire notebook

 9    with the witness, drawing his attention to where it was -- where entries

10    in pencil, entries in pen, asking about handwriting, asking about this and

11    about that.  So our answer to all the submissions that have been made,

12    submission to admit and objections from Mr. Haynes and from Mr. Meek is

13    that for the time being, this is not being admitted; it is being marked

14    for identification.  Once we have the full translation, there will only be

15    left the question of authenticity and chain of command that has been

16    brought up, et cetera.  So the document will remain marked for

17    identification, not only until it is translated but until these two issues

18    also are dealt with and determined.

19            MR. THAYER:  And, Your Honour, just to follow up on your previous

20    query, Mr. President, we will be, in addition to bringing witnesses who

21    will discuss various portions of the notebook, as my friends know,

22    (redacted)

23    (redacted)  So there are many questions that I believe

24    will be dealt with.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon has left the courtroom?  Yes,

Page 11588

 1    Ms. Nikolic, he went to prepare the motion?

 2            MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 3    leave -- Mr. Bourgon has left and he's working from the office.  He's

 4    working on the submission so as to be able to file it as soon as possible.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  He should be thankful we gave him more time.

 6            Yes, let's bring the witness now.  I'm sorry, you had some --

 7            MR. HAYNES:  Yes.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  My apologies to you, Mr. Haynes.

 9            MR. HAYNES:  Not at all.  Through the last witness, I would tender

10    into evidence 7D180.  It is a page from the Zvornik Brigade duty officer's

11    notebook.

12            JUDGE KWON:  But Mr. Haynes, is it not page 36 of P377?

13            MR. HAYNES:  It may very well be but it's a portion that is

14    untranslated and we had it translated separately.

15            JUDGE KWON:  No, it was translated.

16            MR. HAYNES:  I'm very sorry, you're quite correct, yes.  I stand

17    corrected on that, but through the previous witness, there was 7D155 and

18    7D159.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  What are you tendering exactly, 7D180 and through

20    the previous witness, 155 and 159?

21            MR. HAYNES:  155 and 159, yes.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  One moment.

23                          [Trial Chamber confers]

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  As regards 155 and 159, do they form part of

25    377?  And have they been translated?

Page 11589

 1            MR. HAYNES:  Yes, they do.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah.  So I don't think there is a need --

 3                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Since these are part of 377 in any case, our

 5    decision is to have them all marked temporarily for identification.  The

 6    reason being the points raised by Mr. Meek now, because there is the

 7    possibility of this document not being admitted at all.  Do you follow,

 8    Mr. Haynes?

 9            MR. HAYNES:  I do.  I'm not going to argue any further.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's the position.  These three will remain marked

11    for identification pending a decision on whether 377 will be admitted or

12    whether it should remain -- or whether it should be thrown out of the

13    records.

14            Anyone else wishes to tender documents?  Okay.  There are no

15    protective measures for the witness.

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  This witness will need a caution.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

18                          [The witness entered court]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Mr. Stanisic.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to welcome

22    you to this courtroom, where you are about to start giving evidence.

23    Madam Usher is going to give you a piece of paper with the text of a

24    solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth, that you are

25    required to make before you start giving evidence according to our rules.

Page 11590

 1    Please go ahead, read it out aloud.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 3    the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 4                          WITNESS:  OSTOJA STANISIC

 5                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself

 7    comfortable, take a seat.  You're here to answer questions that will be

 8    put to you first by the Prosecution, per Mr. McCloskey, whom you've

 9    already met and then by the various members of the Defence teams.

10            You have lived part of the events that you are going to testify

11    about, and my responsibility here is to alert you, to make you aware of

12    certain rights that you have as a witness.  Your obligation normally is

13    that you answer each question that is put to you fully and truthfully but

14    there may be some questions asked sometimes which you feel that, if you

15    are answer them, you may be exposing yourself to possible criminal

16    proceedings later on.

17            I don't know if this will be the case or not but I'm just giving

18    you a piece of advice that I am required to do under the rules.  If

19    questions are put to you that, if answered by you, truthfully, would --

20    could possibly expose you to criminal proceedings or could possibly

21    incriminate you in any manner, then you have a right under our rules to

22    ask us to be exempted from answering such questions.  This is a right that

23    you have.  But it is not an absolute right.  It's a limited right.  We

24    have two options.  We can either decide, after hearing you and possibly

25    other submissions, to indeed exempt you from answering such questions, or

Page 11591

 1    we can compel you to answer such questions.  If we do compel you to answer

 2    such questions, however, you have an ulterior right, namely that whatever

 3    you state in answering those questions, provided you're telling us the

 4    truth, that information cannot be used against you in any future

 5    proceedings that could be taken in your regard.  Is that clear?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  And have you -- had you been informed

 8    about this right before?  Were you aware of it?

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  So I think we can safely proceed.  I expect you to

11    be here today and tomorrow.  We won't finish with you today.  I don't see

12    the testimony of this witness finishing today.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning, everyone.

14                          Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

15       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Stanisic.

16       A.   Good morning.

17       Q.   Thank you for your patience; sometimes we take longer than we

18    expect.

19            First, can you tell us your full name?

20       A.   Ostoja Stanisic.

21       Q.   And where were you born and raised?

22       A.   I was born on the 12th -- or the 2nd of December, 1951 in Fojnica.

23    I was raised in Fojnica and up to 1980, upon completion of school, I

24    worked in Fojnica.  As of 1980 to 1992 I was in the territory of Kalesija

25    in Memici village where I worked at school until 1992.  From 1992,

Page 11592

 1    onwards, I was mobilised and up to 1995, I was a member of the army.

 2       Q.   We'll get into a little more detail about that, but can you tell

 3    us what -- how you wound up in school, what kind of schooling you took?

 4       A.   I am a PE teacher.  I completed higher education in physical

 5    education.  I have a degree in physical education.

 6       Q.   Let me skip to what you do now.  What work do you do now,

 7    especially in the winter?

 8       A.   I have a car wash, and in the winter I spend about three months

 9    every year on mount Jahorina.  I teach people to ski.  I'm a ski trainer,

10    a ski instructor.

11       Q.   Can you tell us, did you do your regular mandatory JNA service?

12       A.   Yes.  I served in the JNA.  I went to the school for reserve

13    officers.

14       Q.   And how long were you in the JNA and when?

15       A.   I served from 1977 to 1978, a total of 12 months.  That was my

16    regular compulsory military service.

17       Q.   In what area were you working during that year?  Sorry, not

18    physical location but what sort of military work were you engaged in?

19       A.   Are you asking me about my compulsory military service, where I

20    served then, or later?

21       Q.   Just the compulsory right now.  Just what branch were you in

22    during your compulsory?

23       A.   Infantry, the school for reserve officers, infantry.  Upon the

24    completion of my training, lasting seven months, I was given a rank of a

25    Sergeant.  Then I was reassigned and then we were assigned either to be

Page 11593

 1    commanders of squads or commanders of platoons.

 2       Q.   All right.  And at the end of your mandatory year, did you stay in

 3    the reserves and continue to be connected in some way to the JNA?

 4       A.   Yes.  Upon completion of my regular military service, I returned

 5    to my workplace and I was a member of the reserve forces in Fojnica, and I

 6    occupied the position of the security organ there.

 7       Q.   Can you just briefly describe, during the peacetime period, what

 8    does reserve service involve?  How often do you actually become engaged in

 9    that work?

10       A.   It all depended on various things.  There were manoeuvres, for

11    example, between 1978 and 1992, I spent a month or a month and a half in

12    training as a member of peacetime units, as a member of the reserve force.

13       Q.   Okay.  Well, let's now jump ahead to 1992.  Before the war got

14    going in Bosnia, what were you doing for a living?

15       A.   I taught at school.  I was a PE teacher at school.

16       Q.   Did you become mobilised at some point in 1992?

17       A.   In May 1992, there was general mobilisation and that is when I

18    became a member of the armed forces of Republika Srpska.

19       Q.   At what rank did you begin in 1992?

20       A.   I started as a captain.

21       Q.   Can you give us just a very brief outline of your career in the

22    VRS from 1992 to just up to July 1995?

23       A.   At the beginning, I worked as a security organ for a short period

24    of time, up to the fall of the 6th Battalion when an attack was launched

25    on Glodjansko Brdo.  And then I was appointed the battalion commander.

Page 11594

 1    From that moment on, I would act as a deputy battalion commander or

 2    battalion commander.

 3       Q.   Can you tell us roughly what date you became a battalion commander

 4    for the 6th Battalion?  It can be rough.  It doesn't matter.

 5       A.   It was in 1995.  I acted as a commander for six or seven months of

 6    that year or so.

 7       Q.   Okay.  And in July 1995, were you the commander of the

 8    6th Battalion?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Where was the 6th Battalion headquarters located in July 1995?

11       A.   In July 1995, the command of the 6th Battalion was in the village

12    of Petkovci, in the old school, next to it is a building, a residential

13    building, for teachers.  And actually we used one of those flats in that

14    residential building as the seat of my command.

15       Q.   Okay.  I showed you an aerial photo in my office.  Were you able

16    to mark where you believe those -- the building was?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Okay.  I'm going to show you -- I'm going to show you a copy of

19    that just so we can establish that.

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  It should be P02815.  This is a what-- a bit of a

21    different aerial than we have used before but I provided it to the Defence

22    a few days ago, after he marked it, Your Honours.

23       Q.   As we are waiting for that to come up, can you tell us just

24    generally what was your area that -- of responsibility for the 6th

25    Battalion?

Page 11595

 1       A.   The defence sector of the 6th Battalion was the right bank of the

 2    Sapna river and to the left from Baljkovacka Rijeka.

 3       Q.   All right.  And in July 1995, can you tell us about how many men

 4    you had in the 6th Battalion?

 5       A.   The battalion had approximately 400 men.  However, about 120 men

 6    were on the line, or maybe up to 150.  In other words, between 120 and 150

 7    men were in the trenches on the defence lines of the 6th Battalion.

 8       Q.   All right.  This photo has come up and we notice that there are

 9    two places marked.  Does this look like the photo that you marked in my

10    office?

11       A.   Yes, it does.

12       Q.   Can you first tell us what number 1 is?  You might zoom in a bit

13    more on one and two.  Thank you.  Do you recognise that building you

14    circled as number 1?

15       A.   Yes.  That's the residential building.  Before the war, it was

16    used by teachers, and during the war as well, teachers were living in that

17    building.  In the lower part of the building, i.e. in the -- on the ground

18    floor, there was an empty apartment, an apartment that had been vacated,

19    and this is where my command was.

20       Q.   All right.  And I'd also asked you to circle the new school in

21    Petkovci.  Did you do that?  Do you see that on this photo?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And is that marked number 2?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   All right.  And we'll -- as you know, we'll talk about that a

Page 11596

 1    little later.  All right.  Let's now go to the 14th of July, which is I

 2    know a date you've talked about before.  But on the 14th of July, had any

 3    of your men been attached with Vinko Pandurevic, to have gone down to the

 4    Srebrenica operation, do you recall?

 5       A.   Yes.  On the 14th of July, in the morning, I received a call from

 6    the chief, from Dragan Obrenovic.  I was asked to send 40 men to the

 7    brigade command, to the Standard barracks.  They were to join the units

 8    that had been deployed in Snagovo.  The mission was to defend Zvornik and

 9    the Serbian villages located in that sector; in the sector of Snagovo

10    there were Serbian villages.  I asked him not to take my soldiers if at

11    all possible because an attack had been expected on that axis by the

12    Muslim forces.  However, he called me again and told me that I had to send

13    40 men to the Standard.  That was his order.  I did that.  I gathered my

14    men.

15       Q.   Let me interrupt you briefly.  Do you know where Obrenovic was

16    when he spoke to you over the phone?

17       A.   No.  We spoke via radio.  Later on, however, I learned that he was

18    somewhere in the Snagovo sector when he called me.

19       Q.   And you said he's called you twice.  Do you remember roughly the

20    time of day on the 14th that you received the first call from him?

21       A.   Possibly between 8.00 and 9.00.  And the second call came maybe an

22    hour or an hour and a half later, after the first call.

23       Q.   And were you -- pardon me if you've said this, but were you at

24    your command post at Petkovci where you received this radio communication?

25       A.   No.  I was on the defence lines at a forward command post, an IKM.

Page 11597

 1       Q.   And can you describe what kind of communication you had at your

 2    forward command post?

 3       A.   I had induction means of communication, and a radio communication,

 4    RUP 12.

 5       Q.   And the induction communication, that was a hard line, hard wire?

 6       A.   Yes, hard-line telephone.

 7       Q.   Where did that wire go to from your IKM?

 8       A.   All the battalions had their battalion switchboards.  They were

 9    all at the commands of the respective battalions.  Not in the commander's

10    office, but all over the battalion, the signalsmen had their own premises,

11    they had a switchboard there, and through that switchboard, communications

12    were established with the defence lines.  All platoon commanders, company

13    commanders, and the forward command post were linked via that telephone

14    line.  At the same time, the telephone line existed between my command and

15    the brigade.

16       Q.   That's the induction line you're talking about too; is that

17    correct?

18       A.   Yes, that was the telephone induction line.

19       Q.   Was there a civilian PTT line at your forward command post?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Okay.  Now, when you spoke with Obrenovic that morning, you said

22    it was on the radio.  So was it on the RUP that you spoke to him?

23       A.   Yes, RUP 12.

24       Q.   Do you remember if you spoke to him directly, or whether it was

25    perhaps a signalsman or a radio person passing on the conversation or do

Page 11598

 1    you remember speaking to him directly?

 2       A.   I spoke to Chief Obrenovic personally.

 3       Q.   All right.  I think I interrupted you when you were saying you

 4    were gathering your men to take them to Standard.  Can you continue

 5    telling us about that?  About what time did you start gathering your men

 6    to go to Standard?

 7       A.   Well, immediately after the second call.  It could have been 10.00

 8    or half past 10.00.  I called my company commanders and asked them to

 9    choose a number of men from each trench.  They gathered and sometime

10    between 11.00 and 12.00, they assembled.  One part of the unit was

11    gathered in Kitovnica and another part in Petkovci.  They were all

12    transported to Standard sometime before 12.00.

13       Q.   Did you go with them?

14       A.   I went there because I was in the defence sector of the

15    6th Battalion.  I took the battalion car and the soldiers were transported

16    in a small TAM lorry.  The other group arrived from Petkovci, so I handed

17    those 40 men over at Standard.

18       Q.   And did you see Major Obrenovic at Standard that day?

19       A.   No, no at all.

20       Q.   Did you learn that day where he was?

21       A.   Yes.  At Snagovo.

22       Q.   All right.  And let me ask you a question I've asked before but I

23    think it was a little confusing so you may have misunderstood it.  Going

24    back to early July, Vinko Pandurevic took a group down to Srebrenica,

25    didn't he, to take part in that operation?

Page 11599

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Did you have to give any of your men to assist the

 3    Commander Pandurevic in that operation?

 4       A.   Yes.  I was supposed to send 40 men, i.e. a platoon, with their

 5    commander to Srebrenica.  They were first brought to Standard, handed over

 6    to the brigade command, and then they were placed under the command of the

 7    commander of the unit that was engaged in fighting in Srebrenica.

 8       Q.   So by 14 July, when you've given another 40 men, are your units

 9    stretched pretty thin up at the defence sector?

10       A.   I've told you that the strength of the battalion was about 400

11    men, but I could not send half of the unit for vacation, so I had to

12    recall my men who were on furlough in order to reinforce our lines, in

13    order to bring up the units on the defence lines up to strength.

14       Q.   When did you recall your men from furlough?

15       A.   Some men were recalled even before the 14th, i.e. when the unit

16    had been sent to Srebrenica, and since Kitovnica is very close, usually

17    men were from that village, also from Brnjica, which had been known as

18    Djulici.  This is where the soldiers resided.  So it was easy for me to

19    replenish my unit by recalling the men from there.

20       Q.   Do you remember what day you recalled them?  Was it before you

21    took the 40 to Standard or after?

22       A.   After.  I recalled them once men had left for Standard, and then I

23    reinforced the trenches to meet the minimum criteria of at least three men

24    per one trench for safety reasons.

25       Q.   Okay.  And when -- roughly what time did you leave Standard on the

Page 11600

 1    14th?

 2       A.   Between 1300 and 1400 hours.  I went back to my defence positions,

 3    to my forward command post.  I had a briefing with my company commanders,

 4    and I stayed there sometime up to between 1700 and 1800 hours, I believe.

 5       Q.   And do you remember, was anyone with you when you went from

 6    Standard back to your forward command post?

 7       A.   Well, to tell you the truth, it's quite possible that the courier

 8    was with me, the driver, but I often drove myself.  So I can't really

 9    recall whether this man was with me at that time or not.

10       Q.   Who was your driver that you're referring to?

11       A.   Vlado Josic.

12       Q.   At the time hat you were at Standard did you hear anything about

13    any prisoners, Muslim prisoners located around the schools in the area?

14       A.   No, no.  I didn't hear anything about that.

15       Q.   All right.  Now, you said you were at your forward command post

16    until about how late that day?  I'm sorry.  Sorry, after -- from Standard

17    you went to your forward command post, how long were you there at your

18    forward command post on the afternoon of the 14th?

19       A.   Well, up until maybe 1700 hours.  It was in the afternoon.  Now, I

20    don't know whether it was 1700 hours, 1800 hours.  I don't know.

21       Q.   All right.  And did you receive any information when you -- well,

22    where did you go when you left your forward command post?

23       A.   I went back to the battalion command in Petkovci.

24       Q.   And did you receive any information when you got back there?

25       A.   Well, down there, I met my deputy, Marko Milosevic, and he told me

Page 11601

 1    that he had been told that some prisoners were supposed to arrive at the

 2    Petkovci school, and -- however, he had received this call earlier and by

 3    the time I arrived there, the prisoners were already in the school.

 4       Q.   Did your deputy tell you who he received this call from?

 5       A.   From the duty operations officer in the brigade.  This man told

 6    him that the prisoners were supposed to arrive there, allegedly to be

 7    exchanged.

 8       Q.   Did Marko Milosevic, your deputy, have any information about these

 9    prisoners that were to be exchanged, how many of them?

10       A.   No, no.  He didn't know their number, and he didn't know the

11    number of vehicles that was supposed to arrive.

12       Q.   Okay.  And what's the next thing that happened after you got this

13    report?

14       A.   After that, there was a call from the brigade.  Colonel Beara was

15    supposed to be notified that he should report to the command.  I asked,

16    "Where, what command?"  And the duty officer said, "Well, he knows well

17    which command he's supposed to report to."

18       Q.   All right.  And you said that there was a call from the brigade.

19    Who took the call?

20       A.   I took the call.

21       Q.   And who were you speaking to, if you know?

22       A.   The duty operations officer.  It was Dragan Jokic.

23       Q.   And when he told you that Colonel Beara was supposed to be

24    notified, did you know who Colonel Beara was?

25       A.   No, no.  I didn't know Colonel Beara at all.

Page 11602

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, one moment.  I'll look at the other one

 2    as well, just in case.

 3            JUDGE KWON:  This is okay.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  On the LiveNote, we are not receiving the

 5    transcript any further, while it's still scrolling on the main monitor.

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Should I just keep going and see what

 7    happens?  Are they getting it okay now?

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  It depends.  If we get the okay from the parties,

 9    yes.  Otherwise, no.  Yes, Mr. Meek?

10            MR. MEEK:  There it goes again.  I'm sorry, I apologise.  Anyway,

11    last week we just disconnected and reconnected and it worked.  We could

12    try that.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no.  My question was still, since the transcript

14    is still rolling on the other monitor, can we proceed while the

15    technicians try to fix the e-court or do you -- because, for example, last

16    time I heard someone saying, yeah, but we need to mark --

17            MR. MEEK:  We kind of need to mark it, Judge.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  We need to stop for a short while.  Mr. McCloskey, I

19    apologise to you, I'm sorry, but we can't help it.  The technicians,

20    please.

21            I'll try to disconnect and connect again.  It didn't work?

22                          [Trial Chamber confers]

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  If you disconnect completely and connect again, it

24    gets you back to where we are.  All right?  But I want to make sure, thank

25    you, Mr. Meek, for letting us know that you have done that already.  The

Page 11603

 1    other Defence teams, please?  Ms. Fauveau is okay; Mr. Lazarevic, the

 2    same; Ms. Condon, all right.  Does anyone still have the problem?  Is any

 3    of the accused following the transcript in English?  We can proceed?

 4    Okay?  All right.  We can proceed.  I think everyone has more or less

 5    fixed the problem.  Sorry for that interruption, Witness, and

 6    Mr. McCloskey.  Let's go -- let's proceed.

 7            JUDGE KWON:  Before you continue, Mr. McCloskey, can I get his

 8    rank?  He said he started as a captain but what his rank was when he was

 9    6th Battalion commander.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11       Q.   Yes.  In July, can you tell us all what your rank was in 1995?

12       A.   Captain first class.  So it's just one rank higher than the one I

13    started out with.

14       Q.   All right.

15            JUDGE KWON:  If I can ask one more question, whether he addressed

16    Obrenovic as Chief Obrenovic, whether it was his way of addressing him or

17    it's a matter of translation.  I'd like to check that.

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:

19       Q.   How did you address Major Obrenovic normally?

20       A.   Well, normally I would say, "Chief, sir."

21       Q.   The "sir "was always there, I take it?

22       A.   Yes, yes.  I would always say, "Sir" and then I would also use his

23    functional title, "Chief".

24       Q.   On that same subject, how would you address your commander,

25    Vinko Pandurevic?

Page 11604

 1       A.   "Commander, sir."

 2       Q.   Thank you.  All right.  Let's go back to this phone call that you

 3    took, and you were told that Colonel Beara, a person you didn't know, was

 4    to be informed to call a command.  Were you given any other information,

 5    for example, where to find this Colonel Beara?

 6       A.   Yes.  I was told that he should be somewhere around the new

 7    school.

 8       Q.   The new school in Petkovci?

 9       A.   Yes, yes, in the village of Petkovci, that's right.

10       Q.   Okay.  Do you remember anything else from the conversation?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   So what did you do?

13       A.   I sent the deputy, Milosevic, to go there to the school and to

14    find the colonel, to tell him about the order that I had received, that he

15    should report to the command.

16       Q.   And do you remember roughly what time of day it was at this point?

17    Do you know if it was dark or light or --

18       A.   Well, it may have been between 1800 and 1900 hours, thereabouts.

19       Q.   And did your deputy report back to you later?

20       A.   Yes.  My deputy arrived at the command and he said that he had

21    informed Colonel Beara about the notification that had been received that

22    he should report back to his command, to his command, not the battalion

23    command.  That was my mistake.  To his command.

24       Q.   All right.  And did the -- your deputy tell you that he saw

25    anybody else with Beara?

Page 11605

 1       A.   Yes.  He said that Drago Nikolic was also there, the security

 2    organ in the Zvornik Brigade.

 3       Q.   Anybody else that you recall him mentioning, any other people or

 4    troops or anyone else that was with these two individuals?

 5       A.   There were some troops, unknown troops, and military police.  He

 6    was able to identify such because they had white belts.  He also said that

 7    there had been trucks and buses there.

 8       Q.   And when you say "there," what was he referring to, to your

 9    knowledge?

10       A.   There, at the school building, at the intersection.

11       Q.   Did he give you an idea of the number of prisoners that were at

12    the school?

13       A.   No, he didn't tell me how many prisoners there were.

14       Q.   And did he give you an indication of the number of VRS troops or

15    soldiers that were there along with Nikolic and Beara?

16       A.   Well, he didn't give me the number, but he said that there had

17    been troops there, there at the intersection where they met, but he didn't

18    even go to the school building, so I don't know if there had been any

19    troops there.

20       Q.   Okay.  So you don't know if there is any troops at the school

21    building.  But can you tell us what intersection you believe your deputy

22    was telling you that he -- there -- where this occurred?

23       A.   The Zvornik-Sapna main road, and a smaller road leading towards

24    the school.  So that's the intersection that I'm talking about.

25       Q.   Where the driveway from the school leads up the main road that's

Page 11606

 1    in front of your command post?

 2       A.   No, no.  The new school was some distance away from the old

 3    school, the place where my command post was.  It's about 600 to

 4    700 metres.  And this is an inhabited area.  There are houses there.  So

 5    this is a village road and at the same time it's the road that's actually

 6    leading towards the school building.

 7       Q.   Okay.  Maybe we should get that document -- that photograph up

 8    again just to clarify it.  It's P02815.  You can actually now mark on

 9    this.  The usher will show you.  If you can tell from this photograph

10    where you thought they met, maybe we can blow that up a little bit more,

11    one more.  Now, I don't know if -- how good you are at understanding these

12    sorts of photographs but can you make out where you think it was that your

13    deputy met Beara and Drago Nikolic?  Why don't you put just a big X where

14    you can see it and it will mark it on the screen?

15       A.   [Marks]

16       Q.   Okay.  If you could just put your initials and today's date, which

17    I think is the 16th.

18       A.   [Marks]

19       Q.   So this -- these -- do we see houses along that little road that

20    leads towards the new school?

21       A.   Yes.  Here at the right-hand side of the road, there are houses.

22       Q.   And were those inhabited at the time?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Okay.  Why don't you just circle the inhabited houses with the pen

25    and we'll finish up with that.

Page 11607

 1       A.   Well, all those houses here in this area were inhabited.  [Marks]

 2       Q.   All right.  And you've made sort of a dotted oval.  Thank you.

 3    Okay, we can save that.  Thanks.  Thank you.

 4            All right.  So you get this report from your deputy.  Roughly how

 5    long was he away meeting Beara and Nikolic?

 6       A.   Well, maybe half an hour.

 7       Q.   All right.  And so what, if anything, did you do to check out that

 8    situation?

 9       A.   I didn't do anything, because I had not received any orders from

10    my command, so there was no need for me to do anything and I had other,

11    more urgent, things to do.  I had to deal with the organising.  I had to

12    work on improving the combat readiness in my battalion, in fact.

13       Q.   So where did you go and what did you do after receiving this

14    report?

15       A.   The deputy and myself stayed there for a while, at the battalion

16    command, and then we went back to the defence sector of our battalion, the

17    right wing, the Sapna river area, and we toured the entire line to check

18    out the situation, to verify what the status of the units was, the

19    staffing levels, and whether they had enough ammunition.

20       Q.   Before going to your front lines, did you hear any noises coming

21    from the area of the new school?

22       A.   Yes.  Isolated shots or short bursts, things like that.

23       Q.   What, if anything, did you do when you heard these short bursts

24    coming from the area of the school and the isolated shots?

25       A.   I didn't do anything.

Page 11608

 1       Q.   Can you briefly tell us what you did that evening of the 15th?

 2    You've inspected your lines.  Did you meet with any commanding officers or

 3    do anything else that evening?

 4       A.   The 15th of July?

 5       Q.   I'm sorry, exactly.  I'm not -- I'm jumping ahead of myself.

 6    We're still on the 14th.  And so you've said you've inspected your lines

 7    that early evening.  What else did you do?  Did you see any commanding

 8    officers or anyone else there?

 9       A.   No, as regards the commanding officers from the brigade command, I

10    didn't encounter any of them.  I only met with my commanders and we came

11    back quite late to our command in Petkovci.

12       Q.   Roughly what time did you come back that night to your command in

13    Petkovci?

14       A.   Well, it may have been at around 2300 hours, 2400 hours.

15       Q.   All right.  And when you got back, did you check on the situation

16    at the school, the new school, I should say?

17       A.   No.  We didn't go down to the new school at all.  It was probably

18    all quiet already.  But because I had not received any orders, and there

19    were officers present there from the superior command, there was no need

20    for me to go to the school at all.

21       Q.   Okay.  Did you hear any noises from the area of the school or

22    elsewhere that drew your attention that night?

23       A.   Well, there was gunfire in the depths, from the free territory.

24    It is quite difficult to establish at night where the sound comes from.

25       Q.   Were these the sounds of -- that you're used to hearing from the

Page 11609

 1    front lines?  Can you hear me okay?

 2       A.   Yes, yes, yes.  It's okay.

 3       Q.   Were these the sounds that you were used to hearing from the front

 4    line or were these some sort of different sounds, from what you normally

 5    heard at night in that area?

 6       A.   At that time, there would be sporadic gunfire and short bursts of

 7    gunfire.

 8       Q.   How long did that last?

 9       A.   Well, maybe until 1.00 a.m.  That's the morning of the 15th.

10       Q.   Did you sleep that night?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Where?

13       A.   In the battalion command.

14       Q.   Did you know that hundreds and hundreds of prisoners were being

15    transported from the new school to the Petkovci dam that night?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   No idea?

18       A.   No idea.

19       Q.   Okay.  What's the next thing you remember happening?  I guess we

20    are now on the 15th, the morning of the 15th.

21       A.   Yes.  In the morning, the 4th Company, in the left wing of my

22    battalion, sustained an attack, a strong attack launched by the Muslim

23    forces, launched from the direction of Nezuk.  And a trench was hit at

24    that time.

25       Q.   Let me interrupt you just for a second.  Do you know if that

Page 11610

 1    attack was from your front, the 2nd Corps troops, or from your rear, from

 2    these guys that were coming through the Snagovo area towards you from the

 3    rear?

 4       A.   The attack did not begin on the 15th.  The attack started on the

 5    11th and the 12th and they continued.  Those were the attacks launched by

 6    this 2nd Brigade of the Muslim forces.  So it was from the Muslim side,

 7    from the front.  It was not an attack from our rear.

 8       Q.   All right.  So what do you do in that morning of the 15th?

 9       A.   I sent my deputy, telling him that he should take a few soldiers

10    from the 1st Company on the left wing and check out the situation on the

11    right wing, and if necessary, if any reinforcements were needed, that he

12    should leave those soldiers there until we can assemble some

13    reinforcements.

14       Q.   Where were you when you were issuing these orders?

15       A.   I was at the battalion command.

16       Q.   Roughly what time of day is it now?

17       A.   In the morning.

18       Q.   Did you receive any information about anything at the new school

19    that day, the 15th?

20       A.   When I went to the defence sector, to the forward command post, I

21    had gathered up some people, some personnel, from the command, there were

22    some miners there and some soldiers and I took them up there to fill in

23    the gaps on the left flank.  And while I was there on the line, I received

24    a call from the battalion communications, telling me that the villagers

25    had come asking for a truck because they had wanted to clean up the school

Page 11611

 1    and to drive some bodies, dead bodies, away.  I gave my approval for the

 2    use of the truck and that's all I know.

 3       Q.   Okay.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's break time, Mr. President.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  It is indeed.  I thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  We'll

 6    have a 25-minute break.  I just wish to inform you from the second session

 7    onwards, Judge Kwon will preside instead of me, and you will be proceeding

 8    pursuant -- we will be proceeding pursuant to 15 bis.  Thank you.

 9                          --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

10                          --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

11            JUDGE KWON:  As indicated, Judge Agius will be away on an official

12    business until the end of this week, we will be sitting pursuant to 15

13    bis.  Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15       Q.   All right.  We left off and you'd been informed that you say some

16    villagers wanted one of your trucks to take away some bodies.  What did

17    you learn about these bodies at the new school?

18       A.   At that moment, while I was up there on the defence line, there

19    was nothing else, just the call and a request for a lorry for the bodies.

20    That's all I knew at the moment.

21       Q.   Did you know whose bodies they were?

22       A.   I assumed, since Muslim prisoners had been brought there the

23    previous day, that it would be their bodies, that it would be them.

24       Q.   No one told you that, you just assumed it?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 11612

 1       Q.   Okay.  Did you learn anything else about those bodies or what

 2    happened at the school that day on the 15th of July?

 3       A.   On the 15th, I spent the whole day on the defence lines.  I had

 4    problems with the organisation of the situation in my unit.  I did not

 5    receive information as to what was going on down there as a result of

 6    that.

 7       Q.   Do you recall seeing Major Obrenovic any time on the 15th?

 8       A.   I didn't see him on the 15th.  However, I saw him in the morning

 9    on the 16th.

10       Q.   And where was that?

11       A.   That was on the left wing of the 6th Battalion's defence.  As it

12    was pulling out from the positions of the neighbouring battalion, of the

13    4th Battalion, the Muslim units had already carried out an attack in that

14    area and they had already taken the command of the 4th Battalion on

15    Motovska Kosa.  They also took some artillery tools, among them was a

16    Praga and self-propelled mortars.

17       Q.   I know that was a very tense and difficult day, but do you recall

18    talking or saying anything to Major Obrenovic about the bodies?

19       A.   Well, he stayed there very shortly and in passing by, he informed

20    me that one trench was empty and that they had withdrawn into another

21    trench.  I was angry because of that lorry.  I told him, "I have a lot of

22    things to do here, and now they are asking me to provide them with a

23    lorry."

24       Q.   And when you say being provided with a lorry, what does -- just

25    what does that have to do with, so it's clear?

Page 11613

 1       A.   Well, that referred to that call in which I was asked that I

 2    should provide a lorry to the civilians for their use, because that area

 3    was settled and, as you can see in this image, the houses are very close

 4    to the school.

 5       Q.   Mr. Obrenovic has said that -- he has reported that you were angry

 6    because you had to provide that lorry yourself?

 7       A.   Yes.  A lorry had to be allocated from my command and sent away,

 8    because the rear of the battalion was in Petkovci.

 9       Q.   Okay.  And you've been shown some logs for some -- from some

10    lorries and I mentioned to you that we would go over those briefly, so

11    let's take a look at a couple of logs for lorries, for vehicles from your

12    battalion.  If we could go to number -- it should be 303, this is a

13    vehicle log for a truck called a TAM 80, and at the top of it, it has,

14    under the driver, we have a Dragomir Topalovic and Vlado Josic.  First of

15    all, can you tell us what a TAM 80 is?

16       A.   TAM 80 is a small truck, up to 2 and a half tonnes capacity with a

17    very small driver's cabin.

18       Q.   And is this the kind that has a canvas top over the back?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Can it hydraulically dump sand or is it just a straight bed, if

21    you remember?

22       A.   No.  There was no hydraulic device.  The bed was made of wood.

23       Q.   All right.  And does Dragomir Topalovic, pardon the pronunciation,

24    was he in your battalion?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 11614

 1       Q.   And what was his job?

 2       A.   He was a driver in the logistics platoon.  He was in charge of

 3    that small lorry and he drove it.

 4       Q.   All right.  And also we have Vlado Josic.  Is that the same

 5    Vlado Josic you've mentioned previously as a courier?

 6       A.   Yes.  In the absence of Topalovic or when he had to go to

 7    Srebrenica, then the travel order contained his name, the travel order

 8    featured his name.

 9       Q.   Can you make out who has signed this travel order in the boxes on

10    the right?

11       A.   It's very hard for me to devise the names.

12       Q.   All right.  That's all right, if you can't make that out.  Let's

13    go now to the segment of the next -- it would be the next page hopefully

14    on the B/C/S and let's go to 15 July.  If we could blow that up?  We see

15    in the middle of this page, there is what appears to be two segments for

16    the 15 July, and the first one -- can you make out what that first one

17    says?  It looks like it's 8.00 to 10.00 and then there is just some --

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   -- slash marks and then what -- under the route, which is that big

20    middle section that lists a lot of villages, can you tell us what it says

21    for the 15th that -- those words, that first one?

22       A.   Yes.  Petkovci-Srebrenica.

23       Q.   All right.  And the next entry is also on the 15th July.  The next

24    line down, and it says, 9.00 to 11.00, I believe, and can you read what --

25       A.   Yes.

Page 11615

 1       Q.   -- it says?

 2       A.   Petkovci-Brana-Petkovci.

 3       Q.   And Brana, what is that a reference to?

 4       A.   That is a separation between the man-made lake and the land.  The

 5    bauxite factory used that lake for its waste waters.

 6       Q.   Okay.  So the term, Brana, is -- I don't know how this is going to

 7    be translated but Brana is the dam that holds back the -- that lake, that

 8    red lake, from the waste waters of the factory; is that right?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Okay.  And it says number of journeys is one of those -- the --

11    one of the lines where there is a 6, has -- that's number of journeys, if

12    we look at the same 15 July, we go over past the -- what looks like 11 or

13    slash marks and then we see a 6.  Is that 6 number of journeys?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Okay.  Do you know what this is a reference to, a TAM 80 taking

16    six journeys to the -- Petkovci and to the dam and then back to Petkovci?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   What is that -- what do you believe that is being used for on the

19    15th of July?

20       A.   First of all, let me explain this, because during my second

21    interview with the investigators, I spoke at length about this particular

22    travel order.  If the TAM left on the 15th at 8.00 in the direction of

23    Srebrenica, it was absolutely impossible for it to come back to Petkovci

24    at 10.00, and to make six extra journeys between Petkovci, Brana and

25    Crveni Mulj.  I know that the TAM left on the 15th in the morning and

Page 11616

 1    returned on the 16th to the battalion command, and I really find this

 2    totally illogical.  I really can't explain how, on the same day, these two

 3    impossible things were entered.  It was absolutely not possible that these

 4    actions had taken place at the same time.  The distance between Petkovci

 5    and Srebrenica is around 60 kilometres each way, which makes it 120

 6    kilometres for the return journey.  These TAM vehicles were not in a very

 7    good state of repair and the highest speed that they could achieve was

 8    maybe 60 or 70 kilometres.  Really, I can't account for these particular

 9    entries.

10       Q.   And you explained that to Mr. Manning in your interview of March

11    2002; is that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Since he showed you this log, have you cleared this up by speaking

14    to Vlado Josic or Dragomir Topalovic?

15       A.   I spoke to Vlado Josic.  I asked him whether he would be able to

16    confirm that he did leave on the 15th to Srebrenica and that he returned

17    on the 16th.  He told me that that is correct, that it is exactly that

18    long that that particular TAM vehicle had spent out of the area of

19    responsibilities of the Zvornik Brigade.

20       Q.   Did he tell you that he'd been summonsed to talk to the Office of

21    the Prosecutor?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Okay.  Let's go to another vehicle log.  It's number 945, I think

24    another one you'd been asked about in that interview.

25            JUDGE KWON:  Before then, Mr. McCloskey, can I clarify one thing?

Page 11617

 1    Can I draw your attention to page -- let me see -- page 35, line 7 to 8?

 2    You put to the witness that whether Mr. Obrenovic said that or he reported

 3    the witness was angry.  Is it correct that you put that way?

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 5            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  I'm sorry, I may have misunderstood.

 7    My question I believe was supposed to mean not that Mr. Obrenovic was

 8    angry but that the witness was angry.

 9            JUDGE KWON:  But it was Mr. Obrenovic who said that.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Mr. Obrenovic has said that and he spoke of

11    that subject in response to that question.

12            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:

14       Q.   Okay.  So we got another -- so we have another vehicle log.  In

15    one is for a TAM 75, and we again see the names Dragomir Topalovic and

16    Vlado Josic, and if we go to the next page and we again look at 15 July--

17    actually, it is -- one second.

18            Sorry, we've got a bit of a mix-up so I'll go on to another

19    question.

20            Sometime before Mr. Obrenovic was arrested, did he speak to you

21    about his -- about these events that you've just testified to, about the

22    time that the Office of the Prosecutor was interviewing people?

23       A.   Should I answer?  When I received my first summons from the

24    investigators of The Hague Tribunal, we had a short conversation --

25    conversations.  Since he had already been interviewed, at one point I

Page 11618

 1    asked him whether I would be allowed to say that there was the cleansing

 2    operation at the school, which was a notorious fact by then.  However, he

 3    said that I shouldn't say that.  He said that that was something that

 4    should not be known.

 5       Q.   What did he mean by that, as far as you know?  What was he telling

 6    you?

 7            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Haynes?

 8            MR. HAYNES:  What's the relevance of this to any accused in this

 9    trial?

10            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. McCloskey?

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think the relevance is pretty clear from the

12    questions that -- and I don't know if I need -- if I should get into the

13    facts in front of the witness but --

14            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15                          [Trial Chamber confers]

16            JUDGE KWON:  In the Chamber's view, I think the question is

17    relevant and also it may touch upon the credibility as well.  Please go

18    on, Mr. McCloskey.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:

20       Q.   Can you just give us a little -- what did you think Obrenovic was

21    doing?  This is about -- before you were going to go speak to the Office

22    of the Prosecutor.

23       A.   At that time, he was the brigade commander.

24       Q.   Were you still in the army?

25       A.   Yes.  I was in the army, up to 2002.

Page 11619

 1       Q.   And so what do you think he was doing, calling you in and talking

 2    to you about this, telling you not to say anything about the bodies?

 3       A.   Well, believe me, I really can't guess what he may have been

 4    thinking when he said that.  He only let me know that I wasn't supposed to

 5    say anything about the event.

 6       Q.   Okay.  Did he intimidate you or threaten you or pressure you in

 7    any way, aside from what you've just said?

 8       A.   No.  He did not.

 9       Q.   And was that before your first interview with the Tribunal, or it

10    the OTP?

11       A.   Yes.  That was before my first interview with the Tribunal.

12       Q.   Now, you've said that these -- the cleansing operation at the

13    school became notorious.  Were you ever -- did you ever become aware of

14    any investigation into the events related to those bodies or the prisoners

15    at the school by your command or anyone else in 1995?

16       A.   No.  We never discussed that, either in the brigade command or

17    elsewhere.  I never spoke about these things to any investigators, save

18    for the investigators of The Hague Tribunal.

19       Q.   Were you -- did you ever become aware that any member of the

20    Zvornik Brigade was ever punished for any activity related to those

21    prisoners?

22       A.   In our brigade, as far as I know, nobody was punished.  The first

23    one that was punished was General Krstic, if that is also what you're

24    referring to in your question.  In the brigade itself, there was nothing.

25    There were no proceedings taken in that respect.  Nobody was punished.

Page 11620

 1       Q.   And if I could ask you just for one last explanation, and I think

 2    a similar question was probably asked of you in your interview but one may

 3    find it rather difficult to believe that you didn't know anything about

 4    those prisoners at the school and that the villagers were the ones that

 5    you gave the truck to.  Can you explain that?  How is it that you don't

 6    know anything about this and that it's the villagers that got the bodies?

 7       A.   My battalion command was in Petkovci, and I have told you that the

 8    defence sector of the battalion was to the right from the Sapna river and

 9    300 metres from the left from Baljkovacka Potok.  In depth, it encompassed

10    Kitovnica and Grbavci villages.  Petkovci, as a village did not fall under

11    my defence sector and under my area of responsibility.  At the moment when

12    I received the call and when all this was happening, I was at the defence

13    line.  In 1992, I was also a member of another battalion, and I

14    experienced a massacre, we had a lot of casualty.  That was on

15    Glodjansko Brdo.  And I was afraid that the same thing may -- might repeat

16    in Petkovci.  That is why I focused on the defence of that area and of the

17    villages in depth, the villages that were inhabited, including Kitovnica,

18    for example.  The first houses there were only one kilometre away from the

19    defence line.  If the enemy had managed to penetrate through there, then

20    the situation would have been much worse.

21       Q.   I understand that.  Had there been 500 to a thousand Muslim men in

22    the new school, they would have posed a potential security threat to the

23    village of Petkovci as well, wouldn't they?

24            MR. HAYNES:  He's cross-examining his own witness here.  This has

25    gone far enough.

Page 11621

 1            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can rephrase the question.

 2       Q.   If there were 500 to a thousand prisoners at the Petkovci school,

 3    would that have posed a security threat, potentially, to your command in

 4    the village of Petkovci?

 5            MR. HAYNES:  That's not rephrased at all and it's based on a

 6    supposition that's not founded in evidence.  It's a question in

 7    cross-examination.

 8            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely disagree on all counts.

 9                          [Trial Chamber confers]

10            JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has difficulty understanding why this

11    amounts to a cross-examination, if not leading, but please proceed,

12    Mr. McCloskey.

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:

14       Q.   Had there been 500 to a thousand Muslim men in that school, would

15    they have posed a potential security threat to your command and the

16    village of Petkovci?

17       A.   Well, when my deputy was informed that the prisoners were coming,

18    he was told that there would be security in place and that our battalion

19    would not be involved, that there was no need for us to be involved in

20    those activities.  I therefore saw no need to provide any additional

21    security of the school and the people in the village, the civilians.

22            And this was not my duty, at any rate.

23       Q.   If prisoners had escaped from that school and killed the

24    village -- people in the house next door to the school, whose

25    responsibility would it have been to protect that house?

Page 11622

 1            JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Ms. Fauveau?  I think Madam Fauveau

 2    was the first to rise.

 3            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this question is based

 4    on speculation.

 5            JUDGE KWON:  And already answered.  Let's proceed, Mr. McCloskey,

 6    move on to another subject.

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8       Q.   Are you responsible for prisoners that you are aware are located

 9    within a kilometre of your battalion, in any way, in your view?

10            JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Ms. Nikolic?

11            MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the

12    witness has already answered this question, at page 43, lines 20 to 24,

13    and he also spoke about the responsibilities of his battalion for the

14    school in Petkovci, and the village of Petkovci itself.  I think that this

15    has been asked and answered.

16            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic?

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have -- it calls for a

18    legal conclusion which is inappropriate to ask a witness but I also think

19    that because he's asking this type of question it's clear he's putting the

20    credibility and veracity of this witness at issue which I agree with him

21    on that point, quite candidly.  However, I think that maybe it would be

22    prudent at this time to give the instruction again, the caution to the

23    witness if the Court is going to allow this question.

24            JUDGE KWON:  I don't see the need to caution him once again, and

25    just speaking for myself, this question is different from the question

Page 11623

 1    previously put.  I think.  But I'll consult my colleagues.

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, if I could respond, the

 3    responsibility of a soldier is something that this -- does not call for a

 4    legal conclusion.  They know their responsibility.

 5                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 6            JUDGE KWON:  As I indicated, this question is different from the

 7    previous one and this may relate to his statement -- state of mind at the

 8    time so that can be asked.

 9            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

10       Q.   And Mr. Stanisic, this will be my last question so we are almost

11    over from this side of things.  Are you responsible in any way for

12    prisoners that are housed within a kilometre from you in your village?

13       A.   In my opinion, and in accordance with the orders I had received

14    for my battalion to defend an area, the building that you talk about was

15    in the free territory.  It was not used for any military purpose on the

16    part of my command, and only civilian structures can be responsible in

17    such a situation for this building.  In my view, it was free territory,

18    and I can only defend an area from the rear in case of an attack, such as

19    there was on the 15th and the 16th of July, on the left wing of my

20    battalion.  The school was a civilian structure.  I couldn't issue an

21    order that it be mobilised, in other words, used for military purposes.

22    That could have been done only by the military department or the brigade

23    command or some instance of that sort.

24       Q.   Sorry, I just remembered one thing I forgot to ask you.  On the

25    15th, did you get a phone call about prisoners again?

Page 11624

 1       A.   My deputy received a call on the 15th, and he said that the

 2    prisoners were supposed to come, Muslim prisoners, and that they had their

 3    own security in place and there was no need for us, we did not receive any

 4    orders to do anything with regard to the school building.  This was just a

 5    notification that we received.

 6       Q.   And I understand that and that's what you said happened on the

 7    14th of July.  I'm going now to the next day.  Did you receive another

 8    call?

 9       A.   The 15th, okay.  Yes.  On the 15th, I was on the defence lines,

10    and while I was at the forward command post, I received a call telling me

11    that the prisoners should be put in the school building.  The man who

12    called me told me he was a security officer.  He didn't give me his name.

13    I said that this was not possible, that the prisoners could not be brought

14    to Petkovci.

15       Q.   Then what happened?

16       A.   The trucks arrived down there.  I heard from the locals that the

17    trucks remained there for a while.  And then they just turned around and

18    left in an unknown direction.  We didn't know where they went.

19       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

20            JUDGE KWON:  Are you not going to ask whether he told Pandurevic

21    after he arrived about what happened?  Shall I ask it?

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's a very good question, Mr. President.

23            JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:

25       Q.   Did you ever speak to your commander, Vinko Pandurevic, about the

Page 11625

 1    events at the school, the bodies and these other things you've been

 2    speaking of?

 3       A.   Well, officially there was no briefing.  They did not ask for any

 4    information from us about the school and what happened there.  I don't

 5    recall any official demands, requests, by Mr. Pandurevic, and I don't

 6    recall that I actually reported about those events to him.

 7       Q.   We don't need any official report, and as we've learned from you,

 8    you were pretty angry when you spoke to Obrenovic about it.  Did you ever

 9    in any way officially or unofficially mention these events to Pandurevic?

10    And you may want to think about what you'd said in your interview to

11    Mr. Manning on that subject.

12       A.   Well, I don't know really.  I can't remember whether I told him

13    about that.  Probably there was some discussion, but I really can't

14    remember.

15       Q.   Let me just -- I'll read back to you a little bit to see if this

16    helps refresh your recollection at all but it's -- this is page 60 of the

17    English and should be page 65 of the B/C/S.  You say that:

18            "After everything was over, sometime after that, there were some

19    spontaneous discussions that occurred where it came up, that I had refused

20    these people to be there and refused to accept them, and I don't know how

21    much they will accept to say that I had indeed informed them about this."

22            Then Mr. Manning says, "So it's your recollection that you did

23    speak about this with Pandurevic?"

24            And you say, "Yes, but I do not recall the exact time."

25       A.   Well, I think that now in my evidence, I told you that I may have

Page 11626

 1    spoken to him, but I really don't recall any long or official discussion

 2    on this subject.  There was no official discussion.

 3       Q.   What short, unofficial discussion did you have with Pandurevic?

 4       A.   Well, I may have told him that there had been some bodies up

 5    there, that the school had been cleaned up.  This was a notorious fact

 6    that the school had been cleaned up and that the tank truck had arrived

 7    there to clean up, to wash the area, the platform, in front of the school.

 8       Q.   And what did he say when you told him this?

 9            JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Witness, Mr. Stanisic.  Ms. Fauveau?

10            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness stated

11    quite clearly that he may have spoken with Mr. Pandurevic.  So I don't see

12    how he can know what Mr. Pandurevic had told him if he is not sure at all

13    that they had in fact spoken.

14            JUDGE KWON:  I think you can rephrase the question, whether he may

15    have heard anything from Mr. Pandurevic.

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:

17       Q.   What do you recall, if anything, what Mr. Pandurevic may have

18    responded to your information?

19       A.   Well, as far as I know, Mr. Pandurevic was indignant about this

20    whole situation, and all the events in Zvornik, all those things that

21    happened there.  So probably in this conversation with me, he must have

22    expressed the same sentiments.

23       Q.   Did either of you express the sentiments to let's figure out who

24    did this so we are not put to blame?

25       A.   No.  There were no such agreements, no orders to that effect, no

Page 11627

 1    investigations.

 2       Q.   Thank you very much.

 3            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Stanisic, you said -- you answered to

 4    Mr. McCloskey that "Mr. Pandurevic was indignant about this whole

 5    situation and all the events in Zvornik, all those things that happened

 6    there."  What would you mean by this, this "all the events in Zvornik"?

 7    What did you have in mind?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the killing of those

 9    prisoners.

10            JUDGE KWON:  In Petkovci?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Who will go first?  Mr. Ostojic?

13            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic represents Mr. Beara.

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  May I proceed?

16            JUDGE KWON:  Please.

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

18                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

19       Q.   Sir, good morning.  I'm going to ask you a couple of questions and

20    hopefully it won't take too long but I think it may take an hour or an

21    hour and a half as we predicted just so you have that in mind.  My first

22    question to you with respect to the general background:  Am I correct that

23    within the 6th Battalion of which you were the commander, there were four

24    companies immediately beneath you, correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 11628

 1       Q.   And can you describe for me how many men were in each company that

 2    was below your 6th Battalion, of which you were a commander?

 3       A.   Well, according to the list, each company was between 90 and 120

 4    strong.

 5       Q.   And if I correct -- if I understand your testimony correctly, a

 6    fifth battalion was formed from various -- a fifth company was formed from

 7    various members of the four companies of your 6th Battalion that were sent

 8    to Srebrenica, correct?

 9       A.   Yes.  From each company you take out a certain number of men and

10    then you establish a unit as required.  If you need a unit that is 40

11    soldiers strong, then you take ten soldiers from each company and then I

12    send them -- send this unit as requested by the superior command.

13       Q.   Now, what I'd like now to turn your attention to, sir, is the

14    number of interviews that you have had in connection with the Srebrenica

15    enclave.  Can you tell us how many interviews you've had with the OTP or

16    any other investigative institution?

17       A.   I had two interviews regarding the events in Srebrenica with the

18    Office of the Prosecutor from The Hague, and I received a summons from the

19    civilian police in Zvornik to make a statement regarding the events in

20    Srebrenica in 1995.

21       Q.   And did you at any time have any interviews with the Office of the

22    Prosecutor in connection with events other than Srebrenica?

23       A.   Yes.  There was another interview, again with the investigators

24    from The Hague.  It was regarding the Snagovo sector in 1992.  But in that

25    period, I was not in the Zvornik Brigade at all, so they did not have

Page 11629

 1    proper information, and I myself was unable to give them any information

 2    or to tell them anything.

 3       Q.   And that's what I have also but I'll just give you the chronology

 4    so that I can be certain about it.  Your first interview was on July 28,

 5    2000 and you were identified or summoned to appear for an interview with

 6    the Office of the Prosecutor as a witness involving the events of 1995,

 7    correct?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And your second interview with the Office of the Prosecutor was

10    July 27th, 2001, approximately a year later, and that involved issues or

11    concerns involving 1992, correct, and not Srebrenica; is that correct?

12       A.   No, it was about Srebrenica again.  In 2002, it was about

13    Srebrenica.

14       Q.   Okay.  Right.  March 14th, 2002, it was about Srebrenica.  But my

15    question was in between the first and second interview you had an

16    interview with the Office of the Prosecutor on July 27, 2001, and that

17    involved only the period of 1992, which you just testified to in

18    connection with Snagovo, correct?

19       A.   Yes, yes.

20       Q.   Now, can you explain to us why -- how it is that -- strike that.

21    On March 14, 2002, when you were summoned for a second interview with the

22    office of the Prosecution, did your status change from that which it was

23    on July 28th, 2000, from being a witness to being a suspect?

24       A.   The interview was halfway done when I -- when my status changed

25    from that of a witness to that of a suspect and then we continued the

Page 11630

 1    interview because I agreed to continue.

 2       Q.   You're referring, of course, sir to the first interview, correct?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Now, let me just jump a little before we get into these meetings

 5    that you may have had with certain individuals.  You don't know

 6    Ljubisa Beara, correct?

 7       A.   That's correct.

 8       Q.   And sir, you never met him, correct?

 9       A.   That's correct.

10       Q.   And sir, you never spoke to him, correct?

11       A.   That's correct.

12       Q.   Now, sir, with respect to your deputy, Marko Milosevic, is it true

13    that the only time you claim that he may have encountered Mr. Beara was on

14    the 14th of July 1995, correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Now, let me switch to the meeting that the Prosecution asked you

17    about with Mr. Obrenovic.  In his question, he asked, and I'm sure it was

18    somewhat innocently, that before Obrenovic was arrested, you had a meeting

19    with Mr. Obrenovic.  Do you remember that he asked you that?

20       A.   Could you please repeat your question?

21       Q.   I want to know the meeting that you had with Mr. Obrenovic, was it

22    immediately before he was arrested or was it a longer period of time

23    before his arrest that you had had this meeting with him?

24       A.   Well, I met with Obrenovic before his arrest, while he was still

25    the brigade commander.

Page 11631

 1       Q.   And you had had this conversation with Mr. Obrenovic about a year

 2    before his arrest; correct?

 3       A.   Well, before I went for the first interview with the investigators

 4    from The Hague.

 5       Q.   Okay.  So if I have here that the indictment for Mr. Obrenovic was

 6    the 9th of April 2001, and SFOR arrested him on the 15th of April 2001 and

 7    we know that your meeting with Mr. Obrenovic happened before your first

 8    interview which was July 28th, 2000, it would mean that in fact you met

 9    him the year prior, correct?

10       A.   Yes, yes.

11       Q.   Where did you meet Mr. Obrenovic?

12       A.   Mr. Obrenovic was the brigade commander, and I was a commanding

13    officer in this brigade.  I was the battalion commander.  And he summoned

14    me to his office.

15       Q.   And you stated on page 40, line 3, today, that you had a "short

16    conversation with Mr. Obrenovic".  Page 40, line 3.  Do you remember that?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And how short was it?  A few minutes?  A minute or two?

19       A.   30 minutes or so.

20       Q.   Okay.  And now, do you remember when you spoke to Mr. Dean Manning

21    in the Office of the Prosecutor during your second interview involving

22    Srebrenica on March 14th, 2002, you said that the meeting with

23    Mr. Obrenovic, on page 51, counsel, was a one-hour meeting?  Do you

24    remember that?

25       A.   To tell you the truth, whether it was half an hour long or an hour

Page 11632

 1    long, I don't know.  But I do remember now that you've mentioned it, that

 2    it lasted an hour.  However, whether it was half an hour or an hour, I did

 3    not have a stop-watch to time it.

 4       Q.   And I could appreciate that, sir.  This short one hour or so or

 5    half hour to an hour conversation that you had with Mr. Obrenovic, who

 6    else was present?

 7       A.   It was just the two of us.

 8       Q.   At that time, you were working under him in 2000 when this -- when

 9    this meeting happened.  Do you know if Mr. Obrenovic met with other

10    soldiers to also discuss witnesses' testimony prior to them meeting with

11    the Office of the Prosecutor?

12       A.   I wouldn't know that.

13       Q.   Did you ask Mr. -- your courier, let me get his name here,

14    Mr. Jovic, did you ask him if Obrenovic spoke to him at any time?

15            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think you mean Josic.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:

17       Q.   Josic, I'm sorry.  Thank you.

18       A.   I don't know that Obrenovic ever spoke to Josic.

19       Q.   Well, did you ever ask Mr. Josic if Mr. Obrenovic spoke to him,

20    given that you spoke to Mr. Josic about the various logs and lorries that

21    you were questioned today and previously by the office of the Prosecution?

22    Did you ever ask Mr. Josic that?

23       A.   When I saw these orders on my return from Banja Luka, I did meet

24    up with Josic.  He worked in Belgrade at the time, and I had managed to

25    set up a meeting to talk to him and to ask him and to inform him that his

Page 11633

 1    name was on the travel order.  And I wanted to ask him whether he

 2    remembered that he had left for Srebrenica on the 15th and that he had

 3    returned on the 16th.  This is what I wanted to ask him.  And after that,

 4    we did not see each other.  He works in Belgrade as a civilian.  I

 5    continued working in the army.  So I really don't remember when it was it

 6    when I saw him last.  I have not seen him in two or three years maybe.

 7       Q.   Fair enough.  All I want to know is if you discussed with

 8    Mr. Josic whether or not Mr. Obrenovic also met with him in order for him

 9    to get his story straight?

10       A.   No, I didn't talk to him.

11       Q.   Did you ever meet or discuss your interview with your former

12    deputy, Marko Milosevic?

13       A.   As for Marko Milosevic, we both reside in Zvornik.  We see each

14    other, but we are not very close friends.  Still we do maintain contact.

15    However, we have not discussed the events and the second round of

16    testimony.

17       Q.   Okay.  Did you ever discuss with Marko Milosevic whether

18    Mr. Obrenovic tried to influence his testimony prior to his interview with

19    the office of the Prosecution?

20       A.   No.  I'm not aware of that.

21       Q.   Do you know when Mr. Milosevic gave his interview to the office of

22    the Prosecution in connection with the Srebrenica enclave?

23       A.   We were interviewed on the same day, in Banja Luka, at the same

24    time but in different offices, in two separate offices.

25       Q.   And that's the second interview of March 14th, 2002, correct?

Page 11634

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   I suggest to you, sir, that in fact you did meet with

 3    Mr. Milosevic prior to that second interview so that the both of you can

 4    get your story straight as to what you purport occurred on or about the

 5    14th of July 1995.  I would be correct, wouldn't I?

 6       A.   We had to jog each other's memory.  It had been a long time ago.

 7    However, we never talked in order to coordinate our stories.  In my view,

 8    it's even impossible for the two of us to have our stories tally 100 per

 9    cent.  It's impossible for us to agree to tell an identical story.

10       Q.   Well, tell us when you met with Mr. Milosevic so that you both can

11    have your memory jogged.

12       A.   Before our departure to Banja Luka, to meet with the

13    investigators.  I really can't remember when that was.

14       Q.   So sometime before March 14th, 2002, correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Did you and Mr. Milosevic drive together to Banja Luka for this

17    interview on the 14th of March 2002?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And how long of a ride is it that you were together prior to your

20    interview with the office of the Prosecution and Mr. Milosevic's

21    interview?

22       A.   It takes two and a half hours.

23       Q.   Now, I read, I think carefully, your statement and I'd like you to

24    clarify somethings with me.  On page 62 of your second interview you

25    state, and because there is no line number, Your Honour, it's hard to

Page 11635

 1    offer that to the Prosecution, but it's there.  Page 62, you state, "Many

 2    things you learned afterwards, how things went on and what really went on

 3    in Petkovci."  Do you remember that?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   We'll show that to you possibly at the next break because I have

 6    only the English version, but is it your testimony, sir, that you did not

 7    say that or you just don't recall saying that?

 8       A.   I don't recall.

 9       Q.   Now, just going back briefly to your meeting when conversation

10    with Mr. Obrenovic half hour, hour, whatever that sort conversation was,

11    can you tell us, please, as best as you can recall, what was said during

12    that 30- to 60-minute conversation?

13       A.   Since Commander Obrenovic had already spoken to the investigators

14    of The Hague Tribunal, he wanted to inform me as to what they were after,

15    what their questions were like, and precisely for that reason, I asked him

16    whether I should tell them what I knew, what I did, and then I mentioned

17    specifically the cleansing operation at the school.  However, he told me

18    not to mention that.  And that's more or less what was said in that

19    conversation.  He asked me where I'd been, where I was, what my

20    obligations had been, what I'd done, and my impression was that I was

21    actually being investigated by him in order for him to learn what was

22    going on in Petkovci, whether I'd seen this person or the other, whether

23    I'd gone to the school at all.  And I told him everything that I stated in

24    my statement.  I don't know what his objective was.  It's hard for me to

25    assume what it might have been.

Page 11636

 1            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic, Madam Nikolic seems to have something.

 2            MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we have

 3    a mistake in the interpretation, page 27, line 21 in B/C/S, I heard it

 4    clearly that the witness said, "cleansing of the school" and in the

 5    transcript we had, "the cleansing operation at the school".

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness said, "cleanup of the school".

 7            JUDGE KWON:  I think that resolves the matter.  Please proceed.

 8            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, my learned friend.

 9       Q.   Do you remember, as you sit here, why did Obrenovic tell you not

10    to mention the bodies and the cleaning of the school?

11       A.   Why he asked me not to mention this is very difficult for me to

12    say.  It's very difficult for me to put myself in his shoes and speculate

13    what he meant by that.  However, he insisted on me not mentioning it.

14       Q.   Okay.  Well, do you remember during your interview with the office

15    of the Prosecution when that exact question was asked of you on page 50,

16    your answer was as follows, and it's in the middle of the page on page 50.

17    I'll read the question from Dean Manning:

18            "Why did Obrenovic tell you not to mention the bodies and the

19    cleaning of the school?"

20            Answer by yourself, Mr. Ostoja Stanisic:  "He just said that this

21    should not be mentioned because this would maybe compromise the brigade

22    and the command but this came spontaneously."

23            Do you remember, sir, that you actually told the office of the

24    Prosecution approximately five years ago that you remembered why

25    Mr. Obrenovic told you not to mention, and that the answer you gave was

Page 11637

 1    the answer that I just read out to you?

 2       A.   I remember that answer, but that was just my opinion.

 3       Q.   Well, who came up with this "spontaneously"?

 4       A.   Maybe I was just thinking aloud.  Maybe that was what I was

 5    thinking, that the brigade should not be involved.

 6       Q.   Okay.  Mr. Stanisic, before you testified or are testifying here

 7    today, it's my understanding from my learned friend that you had an

 8    opportunity to review your second statement as well as your other

 9    statements, correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And it's my understanding from the office of the Prosecution that

12    you had no changes and are going to stick to now this second version

13    because it was different from the first interview, that you were going to

14    stay with this second version, correct, and that you had no changes or

15    corrections, correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Okay.  Let me read your answer back again with respect to what

18    Mr. Obrenovic may have said.  Your answer sir and I'm quoting it here:

19            "He just said that this should not be mentioned because this would

20    maybe compromise the brigade and the command.  But this came

21    spontaneously."

22            You're telling me and us today that that was your spontaneous

23    thought and five years ago you didn't share with the Prosecution that in

24    fact that is what you recalled Mr. Obrenovic said and that Mr. Obrenovic

25    said it spontaneously, is that what you want to us believe?

Page 11638

 1            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  It's a convoluted question, multi-part

 2    question and it's getting towards engaging in an argument.  And if counsel

 3    could also lower his voice, he's awful close to the witness.

 4            JUDGE KWON:  Let's check with Mr. Stanisic, did you understand the

 5    question?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was just going to ask for

 7    the question to be rephrased.  Because I really cannot grasp the meaning

 8    of your question.  What are you asking me?

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:  If I may proceed, Your Honour?

10            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:

12       Q.   Mr. Stanisic, I will and I'll keep my voice down but if I have the

13    earphones on I can't hear it so that's the complexity of it.  Mr. Stanisic

14    I'm confused by your answer that you gave in 2002 and the answer that

15    you're trying to give us today.  And all I want is some simple

16    clarification on that.  Are you telling us under oath today that

17    Mr. Obrenovic did not say that you must not mention the bodies and the

18    prisoners because it would compromise the brigade and the command, or did

19    he say that to you, as you testified and informed the office of the

20    Prosecution both yesterday and five years ago?

21       A.   Could you please take that slowly?  It's just too fast.  I can't

22    follow you.  You lost me.

23       Q.   I was speaking fast?

24            JUDGE KWON:  Please make questions simpler.

25            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could I also -- excuse me just one second, the

Page 11639

 1    interviews at Banja Luka are not testimony.  I know that's not -- but that

 2    may become relevant about testimony or statement later on.  So if we could

 3    not refer that as testimony.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  How would I -- With the Court's permission, if the

 5    Court can ask the Prosecution how would he like me to refer to the

 6    interviews?  Or statements or -- statements?  Whatever his pleasure is, I

 7    just want to keep it consistent.

 8            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Interview statements would be fine.  We don't have

 9    a grand jury.  There was no court there, so --

10            JUDGE KWON:  Proceed.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

12       Q.   Sir, when you gave your interview to the office of the Prosecution

13    in 2002, were you telling them the truth?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   When you met with the Prosecutor a couple days ago, or yesterday,

16    and you read your testimony from -- your statement from 2002, and you told

17    them that you had no changes or corrections to it, was that also the

18    truth?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Now, knowing from your testimony -- from your testimony here today

21    and the statement that you gave in 2002, did Mr. Obrenovic tell you that

22    you should not mention the bodies and the cleaning of the school because

23    this would compromise the brigade and the command?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Thank you.  Sir, you mentioned in your interview statement of 2002

Page 11640

 1    that from time to time you heard rumours and other sources, and that's on

 2    page 61 of his interview of 2002, that you heard rumours and stories and

 3    that you were actively following the newspaper and media in connection

 4    with the development of the Srebrenica trial.  Do you remember that?

 5       A.   You'll have to repeat this again.  Were you asking me whether I

 6    was actively following something?

 7       Q.   Yes.  I'll restate the question with the Court's permission.  Sir,

 8    on page 61 of your 2002 interview, you informed the office of the

 9    Prosecution that you learned many things afterwards, and that you had

10    heard rumours, stories, you read from various newspapers, and listened to

11    various media outlets in connection with the Srebrenica issues that had

12    developed since 1995.  Did you in fact listen and hear about these stories

13    and did you read from the newspaper and watch TV regarding the

14    developments at issue after Srebrenica July 1995?

15       A.   Well, a lot of the information I learned from the newspapers, from

16    General Krstic's trial.  How shall I put it?  When there are celebrations

17    and festivities, people talk about these things.  But those are all

18    stories.  This is all hearsay, something that is circulated on the

19    grapevine.  By the time it reaches me, God knows what the original story

20    might have been.

21       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Do you remember reading any books on

22    Srebrenica?

23       A.   Yes.  A book was published in which two people had escaped from

24    the Brana and Crveni Mulj.  This is their story.

25       Q.   Okay.  Do you remember whether or not you followed or heard any of

Page 11641

 1    the developments from the Blagojevic trial?  You mentioned Krstic but you

 2    didn't mention Blagojevic.  Did you follow that?

 3       A.   No, I didn't.

 4       Q.   Do you know if any -- do you know if your former deputy,

 5    Marko Milosevic, testified in the Blagojevic case?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Can you tell me, sir, during the second interview process with the

 8    office of the Prosecution, did you feel at all threatened or intimidated?

 9       A.   No.  I didn't feel threatened.

10       Q.   Sir, do you remember during the second interview with the office

11    of the Prosecution, that Mr. Dean Manning, among others, insisted and

12    instructed you on numerous occasions to tell the truth and actually

13    doubted that you were telling them the truth?  Do you remember that?

14       A.   Yes, I do.

15       Q.   And do you remember ultimately, or at one point, that Dean Manning

16    or the Prosecutor who was there at the time said, on page 29, Your Honour,

17    and counsel, on page 29 of said interview, "I don't think anyone would be

18    able to believe your version."  Do you remember being told that?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Do you remember the Prosecutor even prior to that instructing you

21    to be frank, and that's on page 19, I'm sorry, to be frank and then also

22    that they didn't believe what you said to them was true?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Do you also know -- recall that on page 28, the Prosecutor or the

25    investigator at the time, and I believe it was Mr. Manning, on page 28,

Page 11642

 1    said, "You expect us to believe that there were only ten people in your

 2    command after you had that discussion?"  And you responded by saying you

 3    expect us to believe that?  Do you remember that?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   With respect to that last comment, just so that we are clear, the

 6    headquarters of the 6th Battalion was located at what is commonly referred

 7    to as the old school in Petkovci, correct?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And it was your -- and it's your statement today, is it not, that

10    on July 14th, 1995, purportedly there were only ten people at this old

11    school at the 6th Battalion headquarters, correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And I think if I recall your testimony -- or your statement

14    properly, there were some elderly people there, a cook or two, and some

15    wounded people as well, correct?

16       A.   No.  I did not mention the wounded.  What I meant were these

17    people, my deputy, myself, three or four men who were elderly, who stood

18    guard, and brought food, cooks and the signalsman, and that amounts to

19    some ten people or so.

20       Q.   What's the name of the signalsman, if you will?

21       A.   I can't remember who the signalsman was.  I had six of them, and I

22    can't remember their names.  I might be able to recall some of their

23    nicknames, though.  It was a long time ago.  I never see them.  And it's

24    only natural that I've forgotten their names.

25       Q.   Fair enough.  Do you remember the names of any of those ten people

Page 11643

 1    who were purportedly at the 6th Battalion headquarters known as old

 2    school, other than your deputy?  Such as the elderly people who were

 3    standing guard, as you mentioned?

 4       A.   I don't know their names.  The cook was there.  He resides in

 5    Trsic, I believe.  What his name was, we used to call him Miki.  I really

 6    can't remember.  Really, I can't.  I can't remember the names.

 7       Q.   Just one question that I failed to ask you about your meeting with

 8    Mr. Obrenovic.  Did he -- actually two questions.  Did he have -- was he

 9    taking notes during your meeting with him?

10       A.   He did have a pen, and a notebook in front of him.  He did make

11    some notes.

12       Q.   Do you know if he at that time also had with him the Zvornik

13    Brigade duty officer logbook, notebook, I think is we are trying to call

14    it consistently because we have used inconsistent words, which I think is

15    P0377, for the record, of course.  Do you know if he had the notebook, the

16    duty officer's notebook from the Zvornik Brigade at the time that you had

17    this meeting with him?

18       A.   No, I didn't notice that.

19       Q.   Just a couple questions before the break.  Sir, do you remember if

20    Dean Manning ever told you -- and this is on page 4 -- whether he had

21    intercepts of your radio communications?

22       A.   That my conversation was recorded?  No.  But he did mention that

23    there were a lot of intercepts that were recorded, but he never mentioned

24    me as having been recorded.

25       Q.   Okay.

Page 11644

 1       A.   On any of these intercepts.

 2       Q.   If I could just clarify that.  On page 4, Dean Manning, among

 3    other things, states, "Intercepts of your radio conversations."  And it

 4    goes on of course but just for purposes of this limited question, do you

 5    remember that he said he had intercepts of your radio conversations?

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  I think in order for the whole context

 7    to be understood, you should read the whole thing.

 8            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic, you suggested that you would be able to

 9    produce his statement or interview statement in B/C/S during the break.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes.  We have it, I think.

11            JUDGE KWON:  It's better for the witness to have his statement in

12    front of him to answer those questions.  If you agree with that.

13            MR. OSTOJIC:  Of course I agree with you, Mr. President.  I just

14    was testing his recollection on that, sir.

15            JUDGE KWON:  How about taking a break now?

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

17            JUDGE KWON:  We will adjourn for 25 minutes.

18                          --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

19                          --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

20            JUDGE KWON:  Has the witness been provided with his statement?

21            MR. OSTOJIC:  No, Your Honour.  We -- or at least I didn't

22    understand to give him the statement.  We found the statement.  It is in

23    e-court but he can be given the statement.  We have it here --

24            JUDGE KWON:  When necessary.

25            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 11645

 1            JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed.

 2            MR. OSTOJIC:

 3       Q.   Mr. Stanisic, I would like to ask you, were you ever shown by

 4    Dean Manning or the Office of the Prosecution any intercepts of radio

 5    communications that you may have been mentioned in or were involved in?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Now, as I said earlier, and I think it's on 7D266, on the English

 8    version, page 4, and on the B/C/S version, it's page 5, but I think what's

 9    in the e-court is a mixed version of both English and B/C/S.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm not sure how that happens from time to time but

11    it was produced by another team, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE KWON:  If you have a hard copy it would be easier for the

13    witness to follow.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  I do.  Fair enough.  With the Court's permission, if

15    the usher can hand this to the witness?  Please show it to my learned

16    friend first.  Page 5, if I may direct.

17            JUDGE KWON:  I think the parties and the Bench can follow from

18    what you're saying but just give it to the witness so that he can follow.

19            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes.  Thank you.

20       Q.   Now, sir, I believe what we've given you is a translated version

21    of your interview of 2002, and before the break I was asking you, and it's

22    just a quick question, Dean Manning, according to at least the English

23    transcript that I have, page 4, states as follows:

24            "What I want to know from you now and bearing in mind that we have

25    not -- that we have not only those vehicle records but records from the

Page 11646

 1    Zvornik Brigade and the Bratunac Brigade, aerial images of the execution

 2    as it happened, intercepts of your radio conversations, radio

 3    conversations with the Zvornik Brigade, Bratunac Brigade and the Drina

 4    Corps, we have survivors from the dom itself, people who weren't executed,

 5    who managed to escape."

 6            He goes on and I'll read it just for completion of it?

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could correct.  That's a -- it's meant to be

 8    "dam", not "dom".

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:  I understand.

10            JUDGE KWON:  Please go on, Mr. Ostojic.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:

12       Q.   And he continues to state, "So what I'm saying to you is that we

13    have a large amount of information that points us in this direction and I

14    want you to appreciate that before you answer."  Did you find that

15    section, sir, in your interview?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Now, my question is:  Did Dean Manning or anyone from the Office

18    of the Prosecution ever share with you this "aerial images of the

19    execution as it happened"?

20       A.   No.  Never.  It was never shown to me.

21       Q.   Now, I'd like to clarify a couple other points, aside from your

22    statement, so I don't think we need it at this point any more but it can

23    remain with you, Mr. Witness, if the president and the Chamber so agrees.

24    I want to ask you, in your 6th Battalion, were there any individuals with

25    the first name Ljubo, as either a nickname or a full name?  In July of

Page 11647

 1    1995, obviously, sorry.

 2       A.   Well, there probably were people by the name of Ljubo.

 3       Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Ljubo Stojanovic.  Stojanovic,

 4    I think.  I'm going to go first and then I'll go to Bojanovic next, if I

 5    may.  Do you know that person?

 6       A.   Not by the name.  I may know this person by sight but --

 7       Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Ljubo Bojanovic?

 8       A.   Yes.  I knew him.  He died.

 9       Q.   Do you know of a person named Ljubo Beatovic?

10       A.   The last name Beatovic sounds familiar but Ljubo Beatovic?

11       Q.   Do you know a name Ljubo Sobot?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Do you know of a Ljubo Sobot who may have been a colonel in July

14    of 1995?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Now, if we can have for the witness P0377 which is the

17    Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook shown to him?

18            JUDGE KWON:  The notebook or logbook?

19            MR. OSTOJIC:  Well, I was informed last night by my learned friend

20    Mr. Thayer that we should try to call it a little consistently and he

21    recommended that we call it by notebook as did Mr. McCloskey this morning

22    so I'll call it whatever the Court prefers.

23            JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

24            MR. OSTOJIC:  Just trying to accommodate them.  If we can turn

25    specifically to page -- which is on the entry of the 13th of July and it's

Page 11648

 1    page 2 of the English translation, and on the B/C/S it's the last ERN

 2    numbers 5739.  Yes.

 3       Q.   On that page, sir, do you see it in front of you, it's the third

 4    paragraph, if you will, of that page, which has ERN number 5739 do you see

 5    that entry where it starts with "Stojanovic, Ljubomir"?  Do you see that?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And it states in English, at the very least, that this individual

 8    Ljubomir Stojanovic was to provide food.  Does it say that or can you read

 9    it to us, for us?

10       A.   "Stojanovic, Ljubomir, provides food for SR."  Now, I don't know

11    if this is the first or the second PB, for the 15th.

12       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I just wanted to confirm that this

13    Ljubomir Stojanovic was providing food for the SR, as you say, that it

14    states, and do you know if this conversation on the 13th of July, 1995,

15    was purportedly captured by various Muslim intercept operators?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   We will address that later.  Thank you for that.  Sir, let me

18    direct your attention to a map or a picture that you drew for the Office

19    of the Prosecutor on the 14th of March 2001.  It has ERN number 02171667,

20    and with the Court's permission the usher can place it on the ELMO.  Thank

21    you.  Now, just quickly if we may with this exhibit, sir, can you identify

22    first of all what this is?

23       A.   Here, we can see a sketch of the new school building, the

24    battalion command.  It's part of Petkovci.

25       Q.   Right.  And this is something, sir, that you drew, correct?

Page 11649

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And in fact your signature appears on the left-hand side of this

 3    drawing, correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   As well as the date.  And underneath I'm not sure if it matters

 6    but Dean Manning's signature as well, correct?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Now, when you testified -- when you were interviewed and gave

 9    evidence to the Office of the Prosecution in 2002, this is -- it says

10    2001.  This was a sketch that you were showing them where the command was,

11    and you've identified it as such, I think in B/C/S, you write, "komanda",

12    which is command.  Underneath you put that it's the old school, "stara

13    skola", do you see that?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And on the right-hand side you have an arrow pointing to what

16    seems to be a vacant area as the "igraliste", correct, the playground

17    or --

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And then you also identify the "nova skola", which is the new

20    school, correct?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And then you identify the two crossroads, do you not?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And sir, you made a circle by this crossroad five or so years ago,

25    maybe six now, and the circle indicated where you and Mr. -- where you

Page 11650

 1    claimed that Mr. Milosevic purportedly told you he encountered Mr. Beara

 2    on the 14th of July 1995, correct?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   I just want to compare that to what the Prosecution had you draw

 5    today in their picture.  Now, do you agree with me that this picture that

 6    you drew more accurately identifies where you recall and where you

 7    recalled at that time that which Mr. Milosevic told you where he

 8    supposedly met Mr. Beara, correct?

 9       A.   Here we see the same intersection as on the picture where I marked

10    it.  You have the same intersection.  It's the same thing, the same

11    intersection.

12       Q.   We'll examine that.  Thank you.  Sir, what I wanted to ask you

13    also was, and I don't believe my learned friend asked you this question,

14    when Mr. Milosevic went towards the meadow to purportedly convey a message

15    to Mr. Beara, did he drive?

16       A.   He went there on foot.

17       Q.   And he returned within a half hour, correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Now, I don't believe this was asked on direct but isn't it true

20    that at one time or another, you claimed that you then called the brigade

21    to inform him that the message to Mr. Beara was conveyed; correct?

22       A.   Yes.  I notified the duty operations officer in the brigade that

23    the message had been relayed.

24       Q.   And would you agree with me, sir, that the custom and practice --

25    thank you, Madam Usher.  That the custom and practice of the duty officer

Page 11651

 1    at the brigade was to record such purported conversations that you may

 2    have had with them, informing them that you have conveyed a certain

 3    message to an individual?

 4       A.   Well, he should have written that down, but much would depend on

 5    the duty officer in question.  It would also depend on whether he was

 6    supposed to forward this information to anyone or was it just for his

 7    information.  He perhaps should have noted this down, this message.

 8       Q.   And, sir, if you look at the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook

 9    on the 12th, for example, on page 7 in the English version, it clearly

10    says that if there was any information to be conveyed, the duty officer on

11    the 12th of July, for example, to the 4th and 7th Battalion, he identifies

12    and says, "The 4th and 7th Battalion were informed."  And it's my

13    suggestion to you, sir, that at all times, as reflected in the duty

14    officer notebook, such as July 12th, 15th, 16th, 17th and so on, that each

15    time any request for things even such as mortar support, messages to be

16    conveyed, looking for specific individuals, if someone calls back, they

17    specifically identify and say, "Message conveyed."  Do you agree with me

18    on that?

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.

20            JUDGE KWON:  I was about to intervene.  I'm not sure whether the

21    witness can follow.

22            MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.  I'll break it down.  I was trying to simplify

23    it in the interests of time, Your Honour.  If we could have the logbook,

24    please, brought up?  If we could look to July 12th, for the Court and my

25    learned friend, we are looking at page 7 of July 12th, of the translated

Page 11652

 1    version.

 2       Q.   And it states, sir, on page 7 and I'll just read it to you and by

 3    the time we get it up in the transcript he's looking for it now, the exact

 4    page number, it says, if I may proceed?

 5            JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6            MR. OSTOJIC:

 7       Q.   It says, "At 4.42, Lovac 1 reported, informed the 4th and 7th to

 8    pay special attention to their back."

 9            Immediately underneath that or after it, it says, "The 4th and 7th

10    PB were informed immediately."

11            I'm just highlighting for you, sir, that if they informed someone

12    of something they would record whether or not that person was actually

13    informed or advised.  Would you agree with me on that?

14       A.   Well, I don't know what you're driving at.  Whether the duty

15    operations officer noted down what I told him?

16            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic, I think the witness has answered in a

17    general manner.  Could we -- the logbook, the notebook is there.  Can we

18    not proceed and move on to another subject?

19            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, Your Honour, if I can just ask one other

20    question and I am proceeding on this, if we could look at ERN number of

21    the notebook 5764, which is in English the last four numbers, 9359.

22       Q.   And towards the bottom of that page, 5764, if we may scroll down,

23    on the bottom of that page, do you see, sir, where at 1120 hours, it says

24    "Badem, Colonel Jankovic was looking for Major Malinic".  Do you see

25    that?

Page 11653

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   What does it say after that?

 3       A.   "To call him."  I can't decipher this.

 4       Q.   On the English version it says, "Message conveyed."

 5       A.   "Conveyed".

 6       Q.   I suggest to you, sir, that nowhere in the Zvornik Brigade duty

 7    officer notebook is there any indication that you called purportedly the

 8    duty officer to inform him that you had conveyed a message to Mr. Beara on

 9    the 14th of July 1995.  And the reason for that, sir, is because you're

10    simply not telling us the truth and you did not convey a message to

11    Mr. Beara through your deputy.

12       A.   Well, that, I think, is your opinion.  I cannot agree with it.

13    Now, whether the duty officer noted that down or not, I can't bring him

14    here, I cannot confront him here and ask him why you didn't sign -- why

15    didn't you note this in.

16       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... And, sir, you never saw

17    Mr. Beara himself either at the Zvornik command, at the Petkovci old

18    school or at the new school personally, correct?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Just so I'm clear because it's a double negative sometimes this

21    happens, I'm correct you did not, correct?

22       A.   I did not.

23       Q.   I'd like to ask you a couple questions about your first name,

24    Ostoja.  Was there another Ostoja in the battalion in July of 1995?

25       A.   I don't know.

Page 11654

 1       Q.   With the Court's permission I've been notified that the full

 2    question wasn't recorded.  I'm sure it's my fault so if I can restate it

 3    or should we just allow for the transcript to be corrected as they do it

 4    from time to time in the --

 5            JUDGE KWON:  It was because you overlapped with the witness.

 6            MR. OSTOJIC:  Clearly it was my fault.

 7            JUDGE KWON:  Just in case, why don't you repeat your question for

 8    the record.

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:

10       Q.   Mr. Witness, or Mr. Stanisic, I'm sorry, I asked you a question

11    and you answered it.  It was not captured on the transcript.  I apologise

12    for having to ask the question again.  But I'll ask it:  Sir, am I correct

13    that in July of 1995, you never saw Mr. Ljubisa Beara himself anywhere

14    near or around the Zvornik command, the Petkovci old school or the

15    Petkovci new school; is that correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Now, I'd like to look with you this one intercept that we've been

18    having some trouble with and I think you might be able to help me.  Do you

19    remember what the code-name was for the Zvornik Brigade?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Do you remember what the code-name was for Drina Corps?

22       A.   No.  Because as a battalion commander, I did not communicate

23    directly with the brigades, with the exception of my brigade, and usually

24    it would be encrypted for the purpose of radio communication.

25       Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Vojanovic?

Page 11655

 1       A.   Vojanovic?  I don't.

 2       Q.   Can you tell us where or what -- where in relation to Snagovo is

 3    Crni Vrh?

 4       A.   It is west of Snagovo, more to the west.

 5       Q.   You mentioned Snagovo earlier in your testimony today.  Am I

 6    correct that you were asked to bring men and you sent them to the Standard

 7    so that they could go to Snagovo and the reason for that is because the

 8    Bosnian Muslims were pushing your guys back towards Crni Vrh?  Is that

 9    accurate?  And that's why they needed reinforcements?

10       A.   I stated in my previous statement that reinforcements had been

11    sought in order to set up a unit to defend the town of Zvornik, and the

12    Serb villages at Snagovo, simply to oppose the enemy, to prevent the enemy

13    from attacking the town or the Serb villages.

14       Q.   Now, if we can have the intercept which we don't have in e-court,

15    Your Honour, and I think it might take a second but we can probably give

16    him a clean copy that's already been tendered by the Prosecution of the

17    14th of July 1995, which bears ERN number 01043214, and this quite

18    candidly came up because the witness testified for the first time, at

19    least based on my recollection, that he understood RUP as the evidence was

20    led by my learned friend from the Office of the Prosecution.  And this is

21    an intercept with the time 2102 hours.

22            Even though I have some markings on it, unless -- may I show him

23    that?  Maybe I could show it to my learned friend and he can see if he has

24    an objection to the markings?

25            JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 11656

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  I just got the number on e-court, 1164.  I

 2    apologise, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE KWON:  Small a, b, c?

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  We can have both the English and the B/C/S version

 5    so I think it would be a and b, Your Honour.

 6            JUDGE KWON:  A is English.

 7            MR. OSTOJIC:

 8       Q.   While --

 9            JUDGE KWON:  Give me a minute.

10                          [Trial Chamber confers]

11            MR. OSTOJIC:  1164D, D as in dog.

12                          [Trial Chamber confers]

13            JUDGE KWON:  Before putting this to the witness, can I ask

14    Mr. McCloskey whether it would be okay to put this document, which is

15    confidential, to the witness, in particular the B/C/S?

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  If I could see what we are talking about, I don't

17    think it's a particular problem.  I mean if it's initials it's not a

18    problem.  I don't know what else it might be shown.

19            JUDGE KWON:  Name of the place or -- I can't read it.

20            MR. OSTOJIC:  If I may, Your Honour, the reason I think the first

21    name that appears on this intercept is identical to this gentleman's first

22    name and I wanted to clarify because we did have some issues, with all due

23    respect, with this intercept, the operator himself at the end of the

24    intercept identifies that it may or may not have been intercepted or

25    interrupted and I wanted to clarify if he recalls --

Page 11657

 1            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  Could we not have these discussions in

 2    front of the witness?  All I think we are worried about is identifying the

 3    intercept operator and if that is not a problem with the exhibit which I

 4    don't see, then I think we can show it to him with no problem.

 5            JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  If the Prosecution is in agreement, let's put

 6    it, proceed with the question.

 7            MR. OSTOJIC:  And did we -- were we able to put on the e-court --

 8            JUDGE KWON:  Let's not broadcast this document.

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, of course.

10       Q.   Mr. Witness, sir, in this document, it has -- do you see reference

11    to the first name Ostoja?  Do you see that?  And this is the printed

12    version, although I think from time to time we also used the written

13    version of this document.  Do you see that?

14       A.   Just a moment, please.  I can't see it.  Where, roughly?

15       Q.   If you look on the -- right on the 4th entry on the left which

16    says, J, and then four lines below that it has the name --

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And above that --

19       A.   Yes, yes, I've found it.

20       Q.   And above that, two lines to the right, it has the name Ostoja

21    again, correct?

22       A.   It says, "Is there Ostoja, who is Ostoja?  Is Ostoja there?  Can

23    you pass him on to me?"

24       Q.   Now, do you recall a conversation with Major Jokic on or about the

25    14th of July 1994, at 210 -- 1995, at 2102 hours where you discuss with

Page 11658

 1    him Snagovo and the reason why he needed men in Snagovo was because the

 2    Muslims have pushed your guys back toward Crni Vrh?  Do you remember that?

 3       A.   This is not clear.  The name Ostoja is mentioned but I don't

 4    remember this conversation at all.  Is there Ostoja?  Is there Brko?  In

 5    my battalion, I did not have a Brko.

 6       Q.   Do you know, sir, what extension 155 is?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Do you know to whom extension 155 belongs to?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Do you know where extension 155 is located at?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Thank you for that.  We don't need that document any longer.

13            Sir, quite candidly, I would like to suggest to you in the few

14    moments that we have that during your two and a half hour ride with

15    Mr. Milosevic, for your interview with the Office of the Prosecutor in

16    2002, you and he both concocted this story to say that Mr. Beara was near

17    or around a meadow towards the new school on July 14th, 1995.

18       A.   I don't agree with what you're saying.  What I've stated is the

19    truth.  I got a call from the brigade that Colonel Beara should report to

20    a command, Milosevic conveyed that message, there was no previous

21    agreement on that on our part.  This is the truth.

22       Q.   Can you tell me, sir, when you met with Mr. Josic, I suggest to

23    you that you also concocted and created the story with Mr. Josic with

24    respect to the lorries and the trucks that were being used to transport

25    some of the dead bodies that were located at the school.  Isn't that true?

Page 11659

 1       A.   No.  Again, I don't agree with you.  I stand by what I've stated,

 2    which is the following:  The lorry that was driven by Josic went to

 3    Srebrenica and returned on the 16th.  Many can confirm that fact, I'm

 4    sure.

 5       Q.   And give me the names of some of those many, sir.

 6       A.   Acimovic can confirm it.  His name is Mladen.

 7       Q.   Did you ever meet with Mladen Acimovic prior to giving an

 8    interview or testifying here today?

 9       A.   Privately, we did meet on several occasions but we never discussed

10    this particular topic.

11       Q.   Sir, I want you to accept this as a proposition for my follow-up

12    question, that in the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook, on numerous

13    occasions, when someone requests that a message be conveyed, and if that

14    message is indeed conveyed, the duty officer would record that in his

15    notebook.  Can you tell me why, for the period of July 14th, 1995, there

16    is no such record whatsoever --

17            JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.  That's been dealt with.

18            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'd like for him to reconcile it, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.  He answered the question.

20            MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

21       Q.   Sir, can you tell me why it is that only you and Mr. Milosevic

22    purport to be the only individuals from all those in your battalion that

23    claim to know that there was this purported request for Mr. Beara and that

24    that request was purportedly conveyed to him to report to the brigade?

25            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  Assumes facts not in evidence.  I

Page 11660

 1    don't think there is any -- been established that they are the only one

 2    that know this.

 3            MR. OSTOJIC:  I could restate it.

 4            JUDGE KWON:  Maybe it's taken as his suggestion and whether -- the

 5    question can be taken whether he would agree with it or not.

 6            MR. OSTOJIC:

 7       Q.   Do you agree with that, sir?

 8       A.   Why nobody from the 6th Battalion, from among the troops or

 9    anybody else, saw Colonel Beara?  From my testimony, you could conclude

10    where people were, who could have seen him, who was in the command and how

11    far the school is from the command.  Nobody was able to see him.  Maybe

12    many did see him.  But maybe they didn't know him, they didn't know who he

13    was.

14       Q.   Let me ask you this question maybe another way, if I may.  Do you

15    know of any individual other than yourself and Mr. Milosevic who claim

16    that Mr. Beara was at or near the intersection by the new school?

17       A.   No.  I'm not aware of that.

18       Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you a question that was followed up by my

19    learned friend towards the end of his direct examination.  Is it your

20    testimony that on the 15th of July 1995, some unknown person called you

21    and they requested that additional prisoners be brought to the school and

22    that you said no, and that ultimately those prisoners were not brought to

23    the school; correct?

24       A.   Correct.

25       Q.   Well, sir, let me ask you this while you're under oath.  Why, if

Page 11661

 1    you knew that the prisoners were coming to the school on the 14th of July

 2    1995, why didn't you say no at that time?

 3       A.   On the 14th, I didn't know that they were coming to the school.

 4    When I returned from the forward command post, i.e. from the defence

 5    sector, they were already in the school.  My deputy had received

 6    information that soldiers were supposed to arrive at the school.  How

 7    should I have refused that given the fact that they had already been there

 8    in the school, even before I returned from my defence position?

 9       Q.   Let me ask you a couple more questions with respect to

10    Mr. Obrenovic.  Do you have any information, sir, about the fact that

11    Mr. Obrenovic may have entered certain dates in the Zvornik Brigade duty

12    officer notebook with pencil?  Do you know anything about that?

13       A.   No, I don't.

14       Q.   You didn't hear that from anyone, a rumour or a story?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Do you know, sir, that when SFOR went to obtain the Zvornik

17    Brigade documents in 1998, correct, you knew that they did that in 1998?

18       A.   Yes.  I'm aware of that.

19       Q.   And are you aware of the fact that the Zvornik Brigade duty

20    officer notebook was not among those documents but that that specific

21    notebook was provided to the Office of the Prosecutor a couple, if not

22    several or a few years after the attempt and seizure by SFOR in 1998 of

23    the Zvornik Brigade?  Do you know that?

24       A.   No, I don't know that.

25       Q.   Do you know, sir, who had possession of the Zvornik Brigade duty

Page 11662

 1    officer notebook for those two to four years prior to the time that the

 2    Prosecution received it, but after the seizure by SFOR?

 3            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to clarify the record, SFOR didn't seize it,

 4    if we could just get the OTP --

 5            MR. OSTOJIC:  That's fair.  In his statement he actually I think

 6    in the 2001 statement referred to it as being SFOR so I didn't want to

 7    complicate it by showing him his statement but the OTP seizure is fine.

 8            JUDGE KWON:  The witness can be asked who had possession of the

 9    duty officer's notebook.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.  May I restate the question, then?

11            JUDGE KWON:  Probably the witness can answer.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what was taken from the

13    brigade.  I only know that those who had collected the documents said that

14    everything was taken away.  Whatever remained was out of my reach because

15    I was in another barracks as a battalion commander.  I was not in the

16    brigade command.  So I'm not in a position to tell you what remained

17    behind and where the documents that might have remained behind were kept.

18            MR. OSTOJIC:  Just a couple more questions if I may.

19       Q.   Sir, just so I'm clear because I asked you about this intercept,

20    on 14th July 1995 at 2100 hours, you were never in Bratunac, correct?

21       A.   No, I wasn't.

22       Q.   Okay.  Now, I suggest to you, sir, that having watched the Krstic

23    trial and having these meetings with Obrenovic and Josic and Milosevic,

24    that in fact, sir, as early as 2000 and specifically in 2002, you and

25    these other individuals, including Obrenovic, decided to come up and

Page 11663

 1    create a story which would purportedly absolve you of any culpability or

 2    responsibility and you sought to shift that blame on others, specifically

 3    the security staff.  Am I correct on that, aren't I?

 4       A.   Again, that is your personal view.  I don't agree with that.  I,

 5    as a member of the army, when I was an active officer and especially now,

 6    when I'm a mere civilian, I have never conspired with anybody against

 7    anybody, and particularly in those things that you claim that I

 8    continuously followed the trial.  You are mistaken there as well.  Only in

 9    one of my statements did I say that the first person who was ever found

10    responsible or punished was Krstic.  I never said that I followed the

11    entire trial and everything.  I believe that your opinion of me is

12    completely wrong and for that reason, I can't agree with you.

13       Q.   Sir, my opinion of you is that which the Prosecutor had in 2002 on

14    page 29, when they say they don't think anyone would be able to believe

15    your version.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Your Honour, I'm going to object.  That was not a

18    question.  It's just a little crack, as he's leaving.

19            JUDGE KWON:  Reserve your opinion to a later stage.  So you're

20    done with your cross-examination?

21            MR. OSTOJIC:  I may have more but given the hour I think it might

22    be a good time to stop.

23            JUDGE KWON:  You're done for the day?

24            MR. OSTOJIC:  For the day.

25            JUDGE KWON:  You'll continue tomorrow?

Page 11664

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  I may.  I'll look over everything and consult and

 2    we'll let the Court know tomorrow.  Mr. McCloskey.

 3            MR. McCLOSKEY:  You may have noticed, Your Honour, when I was

 4    getting out the second vehicle log there was a foul-up and we didn't have

 5    what I needed on the computer.  We've fixed it and it's now there.  I just

 6    wanted to make sure counsel had the correct vehicle log, and if I could

 7    have one question to reopen my examination, perhaps tomorrow, or I can

 8    come in after everybody, just to ask about that second vehicle log.

 9            JUDGE KWON:  Would there be any objection from the Defence?

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  Your Honour, no objection, we saw he was looking for

11    the document and it would be fair, I think.

12            JUDGE KWON:  So for the first thing tomorrow you ask that question

13    to be followed by the Defence.  Very well, we will adjourn.  We will sit

14    tomorrow at 9.00, but Mr. Stanisic, probably you may have been informed

15    but you are not to discuss your evidence with other people during the

16    break.  Do you understand that?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18            JUDGE KWON:  See you tomorrow.

19                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

20                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of May,

21                          2007, at 9.00 a.m.