Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11741

1 Friday, 18 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everybody. Please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

7 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

8 JUDGE KWON: As I said earlier, Judge Agius is away on official

9 business and Judge Stole is not able to sit with us on an urgent personal

10 matter and therefore, Judge Prost and I have decided that it is in the

11 interest of justice to continue sitting pursuant to 15 bis. I was

12 informed that Prosecution has something to raise before we hear the next

13 evidence.

14 MR. THAYER: Yes, good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your

15 Honours. Good morning, everyone.

16 We wanted to just raise one brief preliminary regarding the

17 General Smith expertise issue that's been litigated to some degree thus

18 far. It's the Prosecution's belief that the Smith expert motions and the

19 filings thus far leave some issues open for in some cases further

20 refinement, in some cases, with respect to some arguments, further

21 elaboration. I think frankly some of the issues have remained a bit

22 muddled and that's I think our responsibility as well as my friends'

23 responsibility. I think I had just the way the motion practice has

24 evolved on that issue thus far. It leaves a little bit to be desired in

25 our humble opinion.

Page 11742

1 We understand that oral argument is something that's not preferred

2 because it takes away from court time, from witness time. We also

3 understand that filing surreplies and motions for leave to file surreplies

4 to surreplies is as distasteful for all concerned as is taking away

5 valuable witness time and we want to avoid that ping-pong match, whether

6 it's in writing or on our feet that Judge Agius referred to the other day.

7 Nevertheless, we sincerely believe that the Smith expert issue

8 does provide an opportunity for some limited beneficial oral argument on

9 the issues that were raised.

10 I've spoken with my friends representing Generals Miletic and

11 Gvero about this suggestion. I think I'm batting about approximately 500

12 with them on whether they would agree to oral argument. I think it's fair

13 to say that everybody on that side opposes a written motion for leave to

14 file surreply and I think last I heard, one party would object to oral

15 argument but would certainly be prepared for oral argument if the Court so

16 ordered and one party does not have an objection to oral argument. We

17 believe that some limited oral argument in total, 20 minutes, maybe half

18 an hour, if there was some more back and forth, would be beneficial for

19 the Court. We don't know where the Bench is in terms of its

20 decision-making on the Smith issue, but if, in the next several weeks -

21 that's usually the time frame with respect to certain issues being

22 decided - we have a gap perhaps that opens up in the witness schedule,

23 that might be a profitable way to use our time.

24 All that said, I can represent to the Court that we will stand on

25 the principle that I've articulated, although we believe that there are

Page 11743

1 some issues that -- larger and smaller, that we would prefer to respond to

2 or have the opportunity to respond to from the last filing from my

3 friends, we will not move for leave to file a surreply to the filing. We

4 will not do that. But we would like the opportunity to address certain

5 issues, large and small, with the Court at the appropriate time.

6 And I've also assured my friends that any oral argument we would

7 not push for today or Monday. It would be in a sufficient time for

8 everybody to prepare.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. I take it there would be no

10 opposition from the Defence or -- Mr. Josse?

11 MR. JOSSE: Speaking on behalf of General Gvero, Your Honour,

12 there is no opposition to this. That's right. Let me make it clear, we

13 are not asking for oral argument but equally we certainly wouldn't oppose

14 it. Could I invite the Chamber, informally, in effect, to make one

15 precondition and that is that I and perhaps my learned friend

16 Madam Fauveau have a further discussion with Mr. Thayer in which he could

17 outline to us what it is that he proposes to say, because what we don't

18 want to happen is to be taken by surprise by his arguments, so we have

19 some vague idea what he's going to say. And we can prepare to respond

20 accordingly and I would respectfully agree with him that half an hour

21 should be ample to deal with the issue. As Your Honour knows from our

22 perspective it's a very important issue and in some senses, whilst we

23 don't invite it, we would welcome the opportunity for the Chamber to

24 consider it more fully.

25 JUDGE KWON: I would very much encourage the parties to have a

Page 11744

1 discussion prior to that. Yes. Ms. Fauveau?

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I just want to notify the Chamber

3 that my position is a bit different. I personally am opposed to oral

4 arguments. In fact, I'm not specifically opposed to oral arguments; I am

5 opposed to the argument of the Prosecutor, to the reply of the Prosecutor.

6 I would like the Chamber to comply by the rules and not to deviate from

7 them.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. JOSSE: Could Your Honour give us one moment? My client wants

10 to give us some instructions, please.

11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President, we have a

12 small problem with the transcript. In fact, there is one whole sentence

13 that is missing. I wanted to say that the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

14 make it incumbent upon one party to make a motion, the other party to make

15 a response and then the other party gives a reply. The rules of procedure

16 do not give the other party to provide an additional reply. That is the

17 Chamber -- that is the rule that I was concerned with, 126.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Josse? Do you --

19 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour. Mr. Krgovic has spoken to

20 General Gvero. We've got nothing to add.

21 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has the various submissions from the

22 parties before it and the Chamber will consider the matter in due course.

23 However, in the interim, as I said before, I'd like to encourage very much

24 the parties to have the discussion among themselves.

25 Let's bring in the next witness.

Page 11745

1 Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. Just before you do I

3 raised two preliminaries regarding to this witness a couple days ago when

4 I thought he was going to start and I just wanted to remind Your Honours.

5 I believe that a Rule 90(E) is applicable and also, the witness is

6 literate but did not bring his reading glasses so he may not -- he may

7 need to have the solemn declaration read to him. Thank you.

8 JUDGE KWON: So it is not because of his literacy but because of

9 his eyesight?

10 MR. NICHOLLS: That is my understanding. He did not bring his

11 glasses with him.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Ms. Nikolic?

13 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Before

14 the witness is brought in, just one question from the Nikolic Defence. As

15 was announced a couple of days ago, this Defence team is working on a

16 submission that was announced to the Chamber and the Chamber granted a

17 longer time for submitting this motion but we expect that the current

18 version will be finalised today and we anticipate that the length exceeds

19 the number of words allowed, 3.000, and we would like to seek approval

20 from the Chamber to exceed 3.000 words so that the submission can contain

21 everything that can be helpful to the Chamber to decide. I informed my

22 colleagues from the Prosecution already and they do not object.

23 Therefore, I kindly request your approval to exceed 3.000 words.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. It is so granted.

Page 11746

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Djukanovic, good morning to you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

4 JUDGE KWON: I take it that you didn't bring your glasses so that

5 you cannot read letters.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not. I can't.

7 JUDGE KWON: Before you give evidence here, you need to take a

8 solemn declaration, so I will read out the declaration. Would you kindly

9 repeat what you hear through the interpreters?

10 I solemnly declare.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

12 JUDGE KWON: That I will speak the truth.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.

14 JUDGE KWON: The whole truth.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

16 JUDGE KWON: And nothing but the truth.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE KWON: If you would like to take a seat?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE KWON: One thing I would like to tell you, Mr. Djukanovic,

23 is as a witness you have a right to refuse to make any statements which

24 might tend to incriminate yourself. Do you understand that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

Page 11747

1 JUDGE KWON: However, in some cases, the Chamber, the

2 Trial Chamber, may compel you to answer some questions. However,

3 testimony compelled in that way shall not be used as evidence in a

4 subsequent prosecution against yourself for any offence other than false

5 testimony. Do you understand, Mr. Djukanovic?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Mr. Nicholls?

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

9 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

10 Q. Good morning, sir. I want to first say I'm sorry that you waited

11 for some hours yesterday. That wasn't intentional on our part, to keep

12 you waiting.

13 First of all, could you tell us, please, when you were born?

14 A. I was born on the 8th of September 1914 [as interpreted].

15 Q. I think there is an interpretation problem. Can I ask you again,

16 sir, tell us when you were born?

17 A. 19th August, 1940.

18 Q. Thank you. And where were you born?

19 A. Opravdic village, Bratunac municipality.

20 Q. And where are you living now?

21 A. Right now, in Opravdici village.

22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, for the record, how about getting his

23 name first of all.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, thank you.

25 Q. Can you tell us your full name, please, Mr. Djukanovic?

Page 11748

1 A. Milos Djukanovic.

2 Q. Thank you. And your ethnicity is Bosnian Serb; is that right?

3 A. Yes, correct.

4 Q. Now, earlier in my office, did you receive -- review and have read

5 to you two written statements which you had given to the Bosnian

6 authorities?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you also listen to and watch your testimony from the case

9 of Prosecutor versus Mitrovic and others in the BiH state court?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Now, the village you live in, could you tell us where is

12 that in relation to Kravica? How far away?

13 A. It's two and a half kilometres from the school, looking from the

14 centre.

15 Q. Could you tell us very briefly when and where you served your

16 mandatory military service?

17 A. In 1961, I left on the 27th of March, and I returned on the 12th

18 February 1963.

19 Q. And where did you do that service?

20 A. The first three months, I was in Lika area, in Croatia, and then I

21 was transferred to the Italian border where my battalion command was.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the rest.


24 Q. That was in Slovenia, correct?

25 A. In Slovenia.

Page 11749

1 Q. And what type of work have you done all your life? What's your

2 occupation been?

3 A. Well, I've been a farmer and I did some work in construction, in

4 the construction business.

5 Q. Now, in 1994, were you assigned to any brigade in the VRS? Were

6 you part of any military unit, 1994?

7 A. When the war began, I was mobilised into logistics until the 15th

8 September or 15th August, I was in logistics. And then I was given labour

9 obligation.

10 Q. And when you were in logistics, was that in the Bratunac Brigade?

11 A. I think it was the Bratunac Brigade. I don't know much about

12 these things.

13 Q. And in July 1995, were you performing your work obligation?

14 A. I think so, you mean 1995?

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls I'm sorry to interrupt you but I take it

16 is 15th September or August in 1994 that he was demobilised? He didn't

17 say the year.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, Your Honours, you're quite correct.

19 Q. Was it in September or August of 1994 that you were then assigned

20 to a work obligation?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.

23 I'll ask you again: In July 1995, where were you performing your

24 work obligation?

25 A. Well, I was everywhere, mostly I was a repairman near Krajiska Oka

Page 11750

1 [phoen]. There was a large agricultural estate where cows and pigs were

2 bred. And then I went to do repairs in houses, wherever I was called, so I

3 wasn't on that farm all the time.

4 Q. Now, which farm are you talking about that you say you weren't on

5 all the time? Which village is that farm in?

6 A. In Kravica.

7 Q. Okay. I want to go now to Petrovdan in July 1995. Do you

8 remember what day Petrovdan falls on?

9 A. I know it's on the 12th of July.

10 Q. Where were you on the 12th of July 1995? What village?

11 A. I couldn't really remember exactly. I think I was in Kravica on

12 the 12th. I was in Kravica. I was minding the cattle.

13 Q. Can you tell us, as best you remember, the names of your

14 colleagues who worked at this farm in Kravica or cooperative in Kravica?

15 A. I know Zoran Eric. He was around me most of the time. And

16 Nikolic also. We were working in the barn, working on a rota, and when we

17 were free from that duty, we did other jobs.

18 Q. Do you remember Nikolic's first name?

19 A. Miladin Nikolic.

20 Q. Now on that day the 12th of July when you were working in Kravica,

21 other than the local villagers and the people working with you, were there

22 any other people in Kravica, any strangers?

23 A. Well, there were some villagers around whom I knew. I still know

24 them. They had returned to their houses. Elderly people, one or two per

25 household.

Page 11751

1 Q. Were there any armed men? Any armed units?

2 A. If you mean armed men, apart from those who were standing guard or

3 keeping an eye on things, I didn't know anyone, and I don't think they

4 were from our area at all.

5 Q. Okay. I'm not asking you their names or if you knew them, but who

6 were these armed men standing guard who were not from your area? What was

7 the name of their unit? How were they referred to by the people in the

8 village?

9 A. Well, I heard them referred to as specials or specialists.

10 Q. And who did you -- who referred to them as specials or

11 specialists, these armed men from outside the area?

12 A. Well, mostly those who don't even know what a specialist is. How

13 would I put it? I didn't know what they were myself. I just heard that

14 name when people referred to them, and that's what I'm repeating.

15 Q. Okay. And these specials, where did you see them on 12 July 1995

16 in Kravica? You said they were standing guard. Can you tell me where --

17 where in Kravica you saw these men? Just describe that, please.

18 A. In groups of two or three. Some of them were walking the asphalt

19 road and some of them came into the perimeter. I didn't spend much time

20 with them or talk to them. I just asked a couple of times, "Brave men,

21 where are you from?" But nobody answered. Just one of them answered,

22 saying that he was from Vukovar.

23 Q. And when you say some of them came into the perimeter, perimeter

24 of what? What are you talking about? Where did they come into?

25 A. Well, the perimeter of our cooperative, the farm, the perimeter

Page 11752

1 formed by the buildings where we were accommodated, we who minded the

2 cattle.

3 Q. And on the asphalt road you're talking about, is that the asphalt

4 road that runs between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje?

5 A. Yes, from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac and Bratunac-Konjevic Polje.

6 Q. Now, did you ever see any of these specials in the town, around

7 the school?

8 A. That happened as well.

9 Q. What were they doing by the school, the specials?

10 A. I have no idea what they did. I didn't go there. I just saw that

11 they walked around there in groups of one or two.

12 Q. And where is this school in relation to the farm in Kravica where

13 you were working? How far away is it?

14 A. It is maybe 700 metres towards Bratunac from the farm. I wouldn't

15 be able to tell you the exact distance. It is probably between 700 and

16 800 metres.

17 Q. Okay. Just to be clear, could we have 65 ter --

18 A. [No interpretation]

19 Q. Something was missed there, I think?

20 JUDGE KWON: We haven't heard the interpretation.


22 Q. Sorry, sir, the last part of your answer was not caught by the

23 interpreters. You said it's probably between 700 and 800 metres and I

24 think you said. Can you just finish what you said next? Something about

25 a road, I think.

Page 11753

1 A. You asked me about the road, towards Bratunac, where the school

2 is. That's what I said.

3 Q. All right. Could we have 65 ter 1563 in e-court, please?

4 JUDGE KWON: While it is being brought in, for clarification, you

5 mentioned Petrovdan. It's St. Peter's Day, I take it?


7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we blow that up a little bit with the main

9 buildings in the centre still? Okay.

10 Q. Sir, take a moment to look at that. I know you don't have your

11 glasses with you. Can you just tell me what --

12 A. But I can see.

13 Q. Good. What is that place you see in the photo? Where is that?

14 Do you recognise it?

15 A. Yes, I do. I recognise it. This is the hangar. This is your

16 barn. This is where we were accommodated, us who were tending to the

17 cattle. And this is a building where offices used to be, or a kind of

18 storage or warehouse or something.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you. The question was just that you recognise this

20 then as the place you've been talking about, the farm where you were

21 working on the 12th of July 1995?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm done with that for now.

24 And could you please describe, as best you can, the uniforms you

25 saw the specials wearing?

Page 11754

1 A. They were in one part, they were camouflage uniforms, a bit

2 darker. They also had black belts, and they also had automatic rifles

3 with folding rifle butts.

4 Q. All right. Now, a while ago you said that they were guarding.

5 Just a minute.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that we have one detail missing here.

7 The witness used when describing the belts that the specials had, he said

8 a word pleteni, and it was not translated.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. If you could ask the witness to --


11 Q. Could you describe the belts, please? The black belts you saw?

12 A. Black belts, around their waists, up to ten centimetres wide. In

13 any case, they were not like we used to wear, they were not leather belts,

14 they were knitted belts or --

15 Q. Fabric belts, is that what you're --

16 A. Fabric, braided belts. I didn't pay too much attention. I did

17 not hold them in my hands as to be able to tell what they were like. I

18 just saw them.

19 Q. That's all right. I'm just asking you to remember and describe

20 things as best you can and you're doing fine. Now, you said these men

21 were guarding. They were acting as guards, these specials. Who were they

22 guarding or what were they guarding when you saw them on the 12th of July?

23 A. I don't know who they were guarding, what they were guarding. I

24 only saw them walking in groups of two or three on that asphalt road.

25 They were within the perimeter. Sometimes they came up to us, they came

Page 11755

1 closer. Nobody ever wanted to tell me what was being guarded, and I

2 didn't dare ask.

3 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you see any Muslims in Kravica that day?

4 Any Muslim men?

5 A. On the 12th? On the 12th, I wouldn't be able to remember exactly.

6 Q. Around that time, let's say.

7 A. Later on, there were some who had arrived from the forest. They

8 would surrender there and from there, somebody said that they were taken

9 to Tuzla. As I was on my way to fetch water, I saw a man coming from the

10 woods, and asked me where he could surrender, and I told him where to do

11 that, and as I was walking towards the centre, there he was again and I

12 told him, "You can go down there or you can go to the school." Actually,

13 these were two different men. One went up to the farm and one went to the

14 school.

15 Q. Okay. Stop there for a minute, please. So you saw two Muslim men

16 that day who wanted to surrender and one surrendered to the school and one

17 surrendered to the farm; is that right?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Okay. Did you help that Muslim man, who wanted to surrender to

20 the school, get to the school and bring him in?

21 A. I only told him where to go, to the gate, to report there, because

22 I'd heard that there was a bus there who was supposed to take everybody to

23 Tuzla. It was parked there. That's why I told him to go either there or

24 to go up to the school because there were buses there who were going to

25 take them away to Tuzla.

Page 11756

1 Q. Okay. Do you remember any specials saying anything to you when

2 the -- at the school, when that Muslim man surrendered at the school in

3 Kravica, asking you a question?

4 A. Yes. He asked me whether I had searched him. I said, "Why should

5 I have searched him? Who am I supposed to be to search him? Nobody ever

6 told me that I was supposed to do that." And when they asked me what to

7 do, I did it of my own goodwill because I meant to help them. For

8 example, if I were here in a foreign city, and if I got lost and if I

9 couldn't find my hotel and if I asked somebody and if they told me, I

10 would take that as them helping me. That's what I did.

11 Q. Okay. And when these two specials at the school asked you, they

12 asked you if you searched the Muslim who was surrendering, did they ask

13 you anything else? Or say anything else?

14 A. No. They didn't ask me anything. I didn't stay there any longer.

15 I just brought the man to the gate. I had to divert for maybe 200 metres

16 from my way, as this man had come out of the woods. One of them was

17 actually wounded in the neck.

18 Q. Which was the Muslim who was wounded in the neck? Was it the one

19 who went to the school or the one who went to the hangar in the farm?

20 A. The one who stayed by the farm, the first one, the one that I had

21 encountered as I went to fetch the water. He was all wet, in jeans. He

22 was holding his hand on his neck, and I realised that he was all covered

23 in blood, and I heard from him that there are lots of them and they

24 scattered through the woods, they didn't know where they were going.

25 Q. Okay. When?

Page 11757

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed part of the witness's

2 answer.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Again, I believe that one part of the witness's

4 testimony didn't enter. I believe that I heard in our language that he

5 said that they, meaning Muslims, had fought among themselves in the woods

6 and I don't see that in the transcript.

7 JUDGE KWON: That's what interpreter noted.

8 Mr. Djukanovic, did you say that Muslims, they had fight among

9 themselves in the woods? Could you repeat what you said earlier, please?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can repeat. I heard that in the

11 wood called Bokcin, as they were leaving Srebrenica, their commanders, one

12 left them, the other stayed and they were all of a sudden two factions

13 there and I heard from others that they had fought among themselves up

14 there. That's what I heard later on.


16 Q. Okay. Now, the Muslim you've just described who surrendered at

17 the farm to the specials and went into the hangar, were there other --

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is not my

20 intention to interrupt my learned friend but this is for the seventh or

21 eighth time that the witness mentions the word "specials", the witness has

22 never mentioned the word "specials". He said that they were soldiers and

23 at the beginning, to my learned friend's question, how these men were

24 called, he answered that people said that they were some sort of specials

25 but nobody knew what a special was. I believe that it is in order to

Page 11758

1 clarify that, the witness is using the word "soldier" and in the questions

2 the word my learned friend keeps on repeating the is the word "specials"

3 which may be rather leading. Thank you.

4 JUDGE KWON: Can I refer to your in-- draw your attention, line 10

5 of page 11, the witness specifically answered, well, I heard them referred

6 to as specials or specialists.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct, Your Honour. And the question was what

8 was the name of the unit of these men.

9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stojanovic's microphone is not activated. Could

10 you turn it off, Mr. Nicholls?

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, it seems that my

12 learned friend doesn't want me to speak. I apologise for the joke. This

13 is exactly what I meant, on page 10 of the transcript, the witness

14 repeated that that's what he had heard, that he heard these men being

15 called specials but neither him nor anybody else knew what specials were.

16 I believe that we should clarify whether we want the witness to use the

17 word "soldier" as he does or "special", as the -- my learned friend is

18 putting it to him. In the witness's vocabulary, I haven't heard the word

19 "specials" mentioned spontaneously.

20 JUDGE KWON: That's what the witness has referred to. If you're

21 not satisfied with the examination-in-chief, you can further pursue the

22 meaning later on in the course of your cross-examination.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE KWON: Otherwise you may proceed.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour and I would also ask that

Page 11759

1 that type of objection in the future that he perhaps request -- that

2 should not have been done in the presence of the witness. I could respond

3 but I won't.

4 JUDGE KWON: Let us move on.


6 Q. Now, the Muslim who surrendered to the specials at the warehouse

7 and went into the hangar, were there other prisoners there?

8 A. Yes. I saw a couple in front of the hangar, standing by the bus.

9 Q. Approximately how many prisoners total did you see around the

10 hangar at this time?

11 A. I didn't go closer. I stayed by the hangar corner. I saw some

12 ten or 15 of them standing by the entrance.

13 Q. All right. Now, the night of --

14 JUDGE KWON: Sorry to interrupt, at one time the witness said that

15 he went to fetch water. Could you clarify that? For whom?

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, I was -- we can do that now. I was -- that's

17 sort of a chapter but we can talk about that.

18 Q. Can you tell the Court, please, about why you went to fetch water

19 and who the water was for?

20 A. The one whom we called special ordered me to go and fetch water.

21 I went, I found a plastic bucket of ten litres. I went to the well in

22 front of Radoslav [as interpreted] Vasic's house. I could have gone to

23 the river but I didn't. I brought this water to the hangar corner, and I

24 passed that bucket full of water to him. That's when I saw some ten or 15

25 men standing there at the first entrance, in front of the door.

Page 11760

1 Q. Thank you. Now, the night of the 12th of July, into the 13th, do

2 you remember what you were doing that night, if you had to do anything out

3 of the ordinary?

4 A. I don't remember the exact date, nor what I did, but I know that

5 on the 12th, I was by the barn tending to the cattle, and on the 13th,

6 maybe in the evening but I don't remember the exact dates, I didn't pay

7 attention to that, I didn't make any notes, I never knew that I would need

8 all that.

9 Q. All right. Let me -- did you at any time during this period help

10 to guard prisoners at the warehouse?

11 A. As far as I'm concerned, I didn't do this voluntarily. One or two

12 of these policemen who were there, one evening, they forced me at 12.00 at

13 night, as I was on my way to the barn to tend to the two cows that were

14 supposed to give birth, they came my way, they commanded me to raise my

15 arms, and I was with a colleague and they asked him to do the same and

16 they forced us to go behind the hangar to a cornfield and they asked us to

17 watch the windows, from there, from that cornfield. Later on, the

18 director came and he saw us there, he stayed ten minutes, he went to his

19 office, I don't know what happened next. We stayed there until 6.00 in

20 the morning. When we wanted to -- when we said that the director told us

21 to go to the cattle, to the cows, and then the director cursed our mother.

22 Q. Stop for a moment, please, thank you.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. There is again one correction for the

24 transcript on page 20, line 15, it says, "one or two of these policemen".

25 "Policemen". That's what it says here. And the witness never actually

Page 11761

1 used the word policemen. I mean, I was listening in our language so the

2 translation was not correct. He said one of these two men that were

3 there.

4 JUDGE KWON: Witness, do you remember what did you say in relation

5 to the two men who forced you to guard the cornfield? Who were they?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same ones that I referred to a

7 little while ago. I don't know they were specials or not. I heard them

8 being referred to as specials. But they took turns. Those who were

9 there, up to 12, wore somewhat more modest clothes and those who forced us

10 to watch the windows, they were a bit tougher. They were not the same

11 ones as those before. They were not the same.

12 JUDGE KWON: Did you say they were policemen?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said specials, those who were

14 there during the day as well, those who were walking around. They are

15 not -- they were not policemen.

16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. Mr. Nicholls?

17 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

18 Q. Let me read part of your statement to you that you gave to the war

19 crimes investigators, just to see if it helps you remember the date where

20 you did this guard duty. This is from the witness's second statement and

21 it's paragraph 6. Page 5 in the English. "On the night of 12th to 13

22 July 1995, while I was in the shift with Zoran Eric, I set off to check on

23 the cows in the barn around midnight, where we were intercepted by two

24 very nervous special units members."

25 A. Yes.

Page 11762

1 Q. It then continues to discuss how they forced you to guard the

2 prisoners that night. Does that help you remember whether it was the

3 night of the 12th to the 13th?

4 A. I believe that this was on the night between the 13th and the

5 14th. One day after the day of St. Peter. I really can't remember. It

6 was 12 years ago and it's very hard for me to remember all that.

7 Q. Okay. Let me just refresh you with one other part of your

8 statement. This is on page 55 of your testimony in the state court. At

9 line 12 in the English. "From the 12th to the 13th, that means in the

10 night of Petrovdan to the next day, that was most probably when these

11 people forced to us keep guard." I'll ask you again if you recall that it

12 was the night of Petrovdan into the next morning?

13 A. I've just told you that I cannot give you a guarantee as to what

14 night it was, whether it was 12th to the 13th or the 13th to the 14th. I

15 really can't be 100 per cent sure of that. I don't remember.

16 Q. Okay. Now, did you notice whether the specials had any shift

17 changes during that time period, during the night?

18 A. While I was there between 12.00 and 6.00 in the morning, the same

19 shift stayed in place, the same men were there.

20 Q. Did you notice shift changes with the specials while you observed

21 them around the Kravica warehouse?

22 A. No, I didn't see that.

23 Q. Maybe let me put it this way: Do you remember any of the specials

24 leaving and other specials coming to take their place? Let me put it that

25 way.

Page 11763

1 A. They probably took shifts. I didn't know them and I did not have

2 any interest in observing whether they were the same ones or whether they

3 were replaced by somebody else. I only saw them arriving in twos or just

4 one of them and they would be walking on that asphalt road in groups of

5 two or three. I did not have the time to stand and watch whether they

6 were changing shifts or not. I did not even dare take a look at them at

7 times.

8 Q. All right. Let me just again try to help you remember this. This

9 is on page 8 of your testimony. "I don't know if they were always the

10 same men because they would relieve each other. I know the shift changed

11 that night but I think it was after 12.00. It was other men. It wasn't

12 the same men."

13 A. Well, they probably weren't the same. They had a rota and the

14 shift that took over at 12.00 was a different group of men. That's what I

15 said earlier.

16 Q. Okay. While you were guarding the prisoners during the night,

17 don't worry about the date, were you armed?

18 A. I had the rifle that was issued to me to stand guard at the

19 building so that nobody could come and thieve. I had the PAP rifle, the

20 semi-automatic rifle not only I, all the three of us; Miladin Nikolic,

21 myself and Zoran had the same.

22 Q. Now, besides you, as best you can remember, approximately how many

23 specials were guarding the prisoners at the warehouse that night?

24 A. I'm not sure if there were two or three of them together with two

25 of us. I didn't go on rounds around the hangar to see who was there. I

Page 11764

1 didn't dare to.

2 Q. And could we please bring up 1563 again? All right. Take a look

3 at that, sir, and what I'm going to ask is for the usher to help you to

4 give you the special pen I told you about, and if you could please, if you

5 can, look at it and mark where you were standing when you spent the night

6 standing guard. Just put an X where you were standing guard.

7 A. From the other side of the hangar.

8 Q. Well, then draw an arrow to where you were standing guard behind

9 the hangar?

10 A. [Marks]. My hand is shaking. It's on that side of the hangar.

11 Q. That's all right.

12 A. Over there.

13 Q. That's close enough. The witness has made a mark indicating for

14 the record his approximate location behind the hangar and could you just

15 write your initials on the bottom right-hand corner, just write MD

16 somewhere on there?

17 A. Here. [Marks].

18 Q. Okay. Good enough.

19 A. This part here, not the other one.

20 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, you just made a line in front of the hangar.

21 What does that line represent?

22 A. In this part here, there were those what do you want to call them,

23 Bosniaks or Muslims. That's where they were. And the rest was machines

24 that were burned down, trucks and tractors. This part here was not built

25 up to the top. There was a procurement storehouse.

Page 11765

1 Q. Okay. You've answered my question. Thank you.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll just say for the record the witness made two

3 marks in the field behind the hangar to indicate his position at night

4 guarding the prisoners and he made two horizontal lines in front of the

5 hangar closer to the asphalt road to indicate where he saw prisoners.

6 Q. And did you see the prisoners, sir - you don't need to mark it -

7 outside where you've drawn the line or were they inside the opening, the

8 hangar we see there, or both?

9 A. I saw the prisoners here in this part, next to the door, here

10 somewhere, right next to the door, from this corner of the hangar.

11 Q. I don't know if we can just save this as it is, Your Honours?

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Djukanovic, could you write down your initials on

13 the bottom right part of this picture, MD? Could you write down your

14 initials?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean where I was? Where I

16 brought the water?


18 Q. No, no.

19 A. What shall I write? What am I supposed to write down there? I'm

20 not sure.

21 JUDGE KWON: MD, M for Milos, D for Djukanovic.

22 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

23 JUDGE KWON: Well done. Thank you.


25 Q. Thank you very much, sir. And I'm finished with that for now.

Page 11766

1 Thank you. I think we can -- I think the date is automatically recorded.

2 I forgot to ask at the beginning, sir, I know that you have a bad

3 back and it can trouble you. If you're in pain at any time while you're

4 here, just let us know, if you need a break because you feel tired, a

5 short break, just let us know. Would you like to continue right now or

6 would you like a short break?

7 A. Let's continue so we can finish earlier.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, you've talked about on Petrovdan, 12th of July,

9 the people you saw and the specials. I wanted you to tell me about the

10 next day. Did you see specials the next day, and if so, where?

11 A. Well, the soldiers were walking around Kravica on the asphalt

12 road, in groups of two or three. I didn't see any larger groups.

13 Q. And did you see whether any more -- did you personally observe any

14 more Muslims surrendering to the warehouse that day or being brought to

15 the warehouse that day?

16 A. I did not see any. I saw only one group outside the hangar here.

17 I didn't see if any more of them arrived because I didn't stand around all

18 the time to see the comings and goings.

19 Q. Now, you talked about bringing some water to the prisoners because

20 the one special asked you to. Do you recall whether you said anything to

21 him when you gave him that bucket of water?

22 A. When he ordered me to go and get that bucket of water, whatever

23 you want to call it, I did that, and he was standing there with his rifle

24 on his shoulder, and I told him, "Watch out. Somebody might snatch it

25 away from you or kill you." And he said, "No. These people here are

Page 11767

1 quiet." I went into the barn, stayed there for about five minutes and

2 heard two short bursts of fire. I got out and then somebody told me, I

3 don't know exactly who, somebody told me this special got killed, and one

4 of the others got wounded, and I said, "That's impossible."

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Lazarevic?

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, Your Honours, again, I believe that the

7 interpreters didn't catch the last part of the answer of the witness.

8 What we have is on page 27, line 7, the witness allegedly said when he

9 heard about these incidents, "That's impossible." And basically what I

10 heard him saying is that --

11 JUDGE KWON: Let's clarify it with the witness.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: He would rather repeat his answer.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Djukanovic, when you heard about that event, you

14 said, "That's impossible." And after that, what did you say? Did you --

15 could you repeat what you said earlier?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said the same thing and I

17 have to repeat it. I didn't go there and I didn't see which one was

18 killed and which one was wounded. I didn't go there at all. And

19 everything happened the way I described it.

20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Lazarevic, is that what you heard?

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: No. Your Honour, maybe I was not clear enough. I

22 never heard the witness saying, "That's impossible." I heard him

23 literally saying, "I told him so. That's what I told him."

24 [Trial Chamber confers]


Page 11768

1 Q. What did you say after somebody told you that the special you

2 brought the water to had been killed?

3 A. I said when they told me this special was killed, I said, "I had

4 told him that would happen and he didn't believe me."

5 Q. Thank you. After those two bursts of fire, what did you hear

6 next? Did you hear any more gunfire?

7 A. Well, while I was at the barn, I heard -- I don't know how long it

8 lasted. I heard a bit more shooting behind the hangar, but there was

9 nothing around the barn where I was but what happened over there I don't

10 know. I heard shooting.

11 Q. You heard shooting around the hangar?

12 A. From the front part of the road.

13 Q. All right. Approximately, best that you can remember, how long

14 did that shooting last?

15 A. Well, maybe ten, 15 minutes, but not throughout, not all the time.

16 Q. Besides the shooting, what else did you hear? Did you hear any

17 other loud noises?

18 A. I heard noises, explosions, but that was already towards dusk but

19 I didn't go anywhere near.

20 Q. And if you can tell, what do you think those -- what were those

21 explosions from? What kind of explosions did they sound like to you, from

22 being in the army and from being in this war?

23 A. Well, a bomb exploding, something like that. That's what I heard

24 a couple of times.

25 Q. Did it sound to you like hand grenades or like a different type of

Page 11769

1 explosion, if you could tell?

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Lazarevic?

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's all right. I didn't hear the other part of

4 the question. Now I withdraw my objection.

5 JUDGE KWON: Would you repeat the question?


7 Q. Did the sounds of these explosions sound to you like hand

8 grenades, shellings or something else? What did it sound most like?

9 A. Well, I think it was like a -- more like a bomb rather than a

10 shell.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Bomb could mean hand

12 grenade.

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that we

14 should establish first if the witness knows the difference between an

15 explosion of a bomb, a grenade and a shell.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: I asked him that based on his military experience

17 and experience during the war. And I had also meant during his service.

18 Q. What do you mean by "bomba"? What kind of device is that or

19 explosive? When you say "bomba", describe what you're talking about,

20 please?

21 A. I can describe a hand grenade or a bomb. You don't have to ask me

22 about that. I know it. I went to the army; I threw hand grenades into a

23 trench. The one with the security latch, the impact-activated one.

24 Q. All right. Now, you said -- I think I'll move on.

25 Now, after this -- hearing this shooting, hearing these

Page 11770

1 explosions, were you able to see whether anybody had been hurt or killed

2 from these shootings and explosions?

3 A. I don't think I could see from that room I was in, from the barn,

4 who was where and what they were doing. I was with the cattle in the

5 barn.

6 Q. That wasn't my question. I mean after -- after this shooting and

7 explosions, did you see anybody who had been hurt or killed around the

8 Kravica warehouse?

9 A. Yes. When I went to get a bucket of water for us, I saw on the

10 opposite side between the bus and the hangar, I saw a couple of dead

11 bodies in a pile.

12 Q. All right. Could we have the same exhibit, 1563, up again,

13 please?

14 Could you please -- the usher will give you the pen again. All

15 right. Take your time and try to draw a circle showing where you saw

16 these bodies after the shooting.

17 A. Shall I draw my position? My vantage point?

18 Q. First draw a circle around where you saw the pile of bodies.

19 A. The bodies? Here [Marks]. And I was here [Marks].

20 Q. All right.

21 A. And when I brought the water, I was there [Marks]. I mean while

22 they were alive, while there were no dead bodies.

23 Q. All right. So I think I will do it this way. The mark on the far

24 left is where the witness states he was when he saw the bodies. The mark

25 in the middle next to the corner of the hangar is where the witness

Page 11771

1 brought the water to the special. And the mark on the far right is where

2 he saw the pile of dead bodies.

3 And if you could please -- at the bottom of the photo, write MD,

4 please, witness.

5 A. Yes [Marks].

6 Q. Thank you. Now --

7 JUDGE KWON: So are you done with this?

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE KWON: That will be saved.


11 Q. And how many specials, if any, did you see in that area, the area

12 around the warehouse, at the time that you saw the pile of dead bodies?

13 A. Two or three, were here on the asphalt road. I don't know if

14 there were any more further up. There was a bus standing outside the

15 hangar.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, it's not quite time but I would

17 prefer to take the break now, if it's all right with the Court.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Although the examination-in-chief hasn't been

19 completed, can I confirm with the Defence counsel as to their time for

20 cross-examination, for the sake of planning of the day? Is there any

21 change?

22 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President. I believe we will probably have no

23 questions for this witness so that would be a change.

24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Madam Fauveau?

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] The Defence of General Miletic will

Page 11772

1 have no questions, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic?

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We will not cross-examine this witness, very

4 likely.

5 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Nikolic?

6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We will probably have no questions

7 for this witness, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Stojanovic?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we announced one

10 hour, but in view of the examination-in-chief, we'll take less time,

11 probably.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And can I confirm with Gvero team that

13 there will be no cross-examination.

14 MR. JOSSE: Confirmed.

15 JUDGE KWON: And Mr. Sarapa?

16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] It is almost certain that we will

17 have no questions.

18 JUDGE KWON: Then we should have the next witness ready.


20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Djukanovic, we'll have a break for 25 minutes.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, sir.

25 Q. Now, we talked earlier about the uniforms you saw the specials

Page 11773

1 wearing, one piece with the belt. Were you able to see any kind of

2 insignia, patches, any other special markings on the uniforms that you saw

3 the specials wearing?

4 A. I didn't see any patches. I wasn't interested in them. I didn't

5 see them.

6 Q. Okay. And you also said you didn't know where these specials were

7 from other than the one who told you -- did you see any of them in

8 different --

9 A. One said he was from Vukovar.

10 Q. Yes, thank you. Did you see any of them wearing different

11 uniforms that would show different ranks or anything like that or were

12 they all wearing identical uniforms?

13 A. Those whom I saw all wore the same uniforms, those who were in my

14 vicinity.

15 Q. Okay. So that was all the armed men from outside the village you

16 saw those days were wearing that same uniform; is that right?

17 A. Camouflage uniforms in one part, as I've told you already, with

18 wide [Realtime transcript read in error "white"] black belts.

19 Q. I think is it white or wide black belts? You said wide before?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Wide, the interpreter notes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Black belts, ten centimetres wide.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. Nothing further now.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. My understanding is that it is only

24 Mr. Stojanovic who will cross-examine this witness. Mr. Stojanovic is

25 representing Mr. Borovcanin. Please go ahead.

Page 11774

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, good morning once

2 again.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

4 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, let's just briefly take you back to your war path,

5 so to call it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In 1992, you joined the Republika Srpska army, didn't you?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. The commander of your unit during the first period of war was

10 Milisav Obackic?

11 A. He was the platoon commander, yes. Of the 2nd Platoon, that is.

12 Q. At that time, you referred to your unit as the Kravica Battalion?

13 A. That's what they called it. I'm not familiar with all that.

14 I'm -- I was not interested in what platoon I was, what company it was. I

15 know that I was in the rear all that time.

16 Q. And you were there up to August or September 1994 when were you

17 given work obligation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember that already in June 1992, at the beginning of the

20 war, in your village, Kravica, several villagers were ambushed and killed,

21 among them were Milutin Milosevic and Bogoljub Eric and others; are you

22 aware of that?

23 A. I'm aware of that, of course I am. That was in my neighbourhood,

24 very close to where I lived.

25 Q. Bogoljub Eric, was he the father [as interpreted] of Zoran Eric?

Page 11775

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I've just been warned about the transcript. Was Bogoljub Eric

3 grandfather of Zoran Eric?

4 A. Bogoljub was Zoran Eric's father. He was elderly. That's why you

5 referred to him as grandfather but he was his father.

6 Q. Also, you were in Kravica on the 7th of January 1993 on Christmas

7 when the BiH army launched an attack on that village?

8 A. Yes. I was at home when the village started burning. I was at

9 home in the evening when the villages started burning. I didn't know

10 anything. And I saw in front of my house people running, crying that the

11 surrounding villages were burnt. That's when I left my house and

12 everything burned down after that.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stojanovic, if you could get to the relevant

14 point as soon as possible?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, just two more

16 questions, please.

17 Q. Members of the BiH army attacked from the direction of Jezestica

18 and Siljkovici towards Kravica; is that correct?

19 A. From all three sides. The only side that remained passable was to

20 the north.

21 JUDGE KWON: That's in 1993?

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. Was that in 1993, on Christmas that year?

24 A. I suppose so, in 1993, in the morning.

25 Q. Will you agree with me that the population that had been expelled

Page 11776

1 was settled by the football pitch in Kravica?

2 A. Yes. I was involved in working on that pitch all the time, the

3 Norwegians funded that or somebody else. The settlement is still there,

4 the settlement that had been constructed for the refugees and expelled

5 population.

6 Q. Can we now look at an exhibit in e-court which is 4D107? While

7 this is being brought up, let me just tell you that this is a document

8 issued by the Ministry of Defence, the Bratunac division, dated 10 July

9 1995, and I believe that this will bring me to the relevant period,

10 Your Honours.

11 Mr. Djukanovic, I've been told that you don't have glasses and you

12 won't be able to read.

13 A. I'm sorry, I've forgotten them. Don't have them on me.

14 Q. Then I will read the document to you. This is a document by the

15 Ministry of Defence, the division in Bratunac, dated 10 July 1995. It

16 features a list of the military conscripts' files and these military

17 conscripts were assigned to the work unit of the R Battalion within the

18 Bratunac Brigade, and could you please scroll up a little? It says here

19 that the commander of the 2nd Squad of the 1st Company, Milos Djukanovic,

20 son of Rajko, born in 1940. My question to you is this: Do you know that

21 already as of 10 July, you were assigned to the R Battalion on the

22 strength of the Bratunac Brigade?

23 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. Is there another person by the name of Milos Djukanovic, son of

25 Rajko?

Page 11777

1 A. Yes. There are several people by the name of Djukanovic but I was

2 never a commander to anybody. I cannot confirm that.

3 Q. Next to your name, there is a handwritten word, sowing. Do you

4 know that in that period, in July 1995, you had any duties in connection

5 with this sowing?

6 A. No, nothing.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The interpreter

8 corrects herself: It is not sowing, it is harvest.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].

10 Q. Then I will go on and ask you this: On the 12th of July 1995, on

11 St. Peter's Day, you found yourself doing work in the Kravica farm as part

12 of your work obligation; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. You arrived at that place, at the request of the then-director of

15 the farm, whose name was Jovan Nikolic; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please tell me whether you know Luka Markovic?

18 A. I know Luka Markovic very well.

19 Q. During those days, was he in any way your superior?

20 A. Yes. He was superior. I could never find a common language with

21 him.

22 Q. Did he give you tasks, orders?

23 A. Yes, he did give me tasks, all sorts of tasks. He gave me all

24 sorts of jobs, just to keep us busy, and when we were supposed to have a

25 bite to eat he would go missing, he would just disappear, vanish. That's

Page 11778

1 how it was. He was not a very nice person.

2 Q. Did he tell you to put up a tent in front of the church in Kravica

3 together with Zoran Eric?

4 A. It was Jovan Nikolic who ordered us to do that because we knew how

5 to do that, Zoran Eric and I. We put up the tent but there was no

6 celebration. On the following day nothing happened, no festivities.

7 Q. You know that the farm in Ljubovija purchased a large quantities

8 of drinks for the celebrations but they were not drunk, they were stored

9 in the warehouse in Kravica?

10 A. I don't know whether the drinks were purchased or not. I really

11 wouldn't know. Nobody ever told me that. And there was a storage, a

12 warehouse, where I could go and I was in charge of but I did not see any

13 drinks or anything of the sort stored there.

14 Q. Did you maybe hear that a warehouse, a farmhouse, was broken into

15 and that a large quantity of drinks went missing on one of those days,

16 either the 13th, the 14th or the 15th?

17 A. No, I didn't hear that.

18 Q. Let me ask you something about these Bosniaks, Muslims, how you

19 call them, who surrendered as they came out of the woods. Do you remember

20 that you spoke about that?

21 A. Of course I do. I know.

22 Q. Did one of them, to whom you talked, on whom you saw those

23 injuries, tell you how he sustained them?

24 A. I didn't talk long with him, just exchanged a few words with him.

25 He asked me where something was, I showed him the way, and the other one,

Page 11779

1 I saw crossing the road towards the centre, he too was covered with mud,

2 wet, soaked. I was smoking a cigarette. He said he hadn't had a

3 cigarette in three days. I took one out and gave it to him to light up,

4 although I didn't have many myself.

5 Q. Were they escorted by any troops or were they on their own?

6 A. They were coming down from the forest, less than 100 metres away,

7 crossing the riverbed, going towards the road.

8 Q. There were no escorts, no troops around them?

9 A. No.

10 Q. One of them went towards the school?

11 A. I took one of them to the gate of the school because I was pouring

12 water over there, the water supply did not work those days. I was going

13 there anyway to get some water for us to drink.

14 Q. Do you agree with me that there was the kitchen and the logistics

15 next to the school?

16 A. There was a kitchen there, right. Any one of the refugees coming

17 by could stop and have something to eat.

18 Q. Who held that facility? Whose kitchen was it?

19 A. Well, I don't know how to explain it to you. Whether it was a

20 military kitchen or whether it was set up for civilians, I'm not clear on

21 that. All I know is that our cook brought us meals three times a week

22 when we were working.

23 Q. After you returned from the school, did you see outside the

24 Kravica warehouse a military vehicle and persons who asked for a chain and

25 padlock from Luka Markovic?

Page 11780

1 A. I don't know about that.

2 Q. You didn't see anything of the sort?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you hear and do you know that on that day, in fact during

5 those days, a column of members of the BH army set out from Srebrenica

6 towards Tuzla across the hills overlooking Kravica?

7 A. I heard people saying that those columns were passing, who their

8 leaders were I don't know, and that they were supposed to meet at Bokcin

9 woods and that they had -- there was some infighting among them and that

10 some men got out of those woods injured, wounded, I don't know.

11 Q. Who told you that?

12 A. The stories went round, you run into one of the villagers, they

13 would tell you. I don't know who they heard it from. At any rate, I

14 didn't go up there and didn't see it myself so I can't tell you.

15 Q. If they were moving towards Tuzla, would you agree with me that

16 there was no reason for them to go towards Siljkovici or Kravica?

17 A. I know that place where the woods are, from before, but when they

18 came by that forest, they didn't know where they were. They could have

19 known the neighbours who were from Kravica but those who were from

20 Srebrenica didn't know the way and they didn't know where to go and that's

21 how they parted ways.

22 Q. Could you understand that as a movement on Christmas 1993?

23 A. The same as we moved out of our villages on Christmas when they

24 started burning.

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls?

Page 11781

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry to interrupt, I just noticed a bit of overlap

2 with the speakers and I want the record to be clear.

3 JUDGE KWON: I think the interpreters got it right but --

4 MR. NICHOLLS: I think they did get it right but I thought I was

5 hearing stress in the interpreter's voice a little bit.

6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stojanovic, could you bear that in mind? Thank

7 you.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm

9 trying hard.

10 Q. And, please, you too try to wait a little when I finish my

11 question before you start answering so it's all on the record.

12 A. I will, thank you.

13 Q. The next thing I want to ask you is that bus you mentioned. You

14 said you had seen the arrival of the buses into the yard where the Kravica

15 warehouse was. Do you remember that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I was warned about interpretation, so I want to ask you was it one

18 bus or several buses?

19 A. I saw only one bus. It was white. It is recorded somewhere that

20 I saw a blue bus but that's wrong. It was a white bus parked there but

21 what kind of licence plates, if any, it had, I don't know.

22 Q. How long did that bus stand there before the moment when the

23 shooting occurred?

24 A. I don't remember exactly when the bus arrived, but I just asked,

25 "What is the bus for?" And somebody said, "To take those people from the

Page 11782

1 hangar out to Tuzla." But the bus eventually didn't go anywhere. It just

2 stayed there, bullet-ridden.

3 Q. You said a moment ago the bus was strifed [as interpreted] with

4 bullets?

5 A. Yes, after the shooting.

6 Q. Can you tell me if you can remember, from what side was the bus

7 strifed with bullets, from the warehouse side or?

8 A. From what I could see, from the road towards the hangar when I

9 went to get that water, and from the front side, as far as I was able to

10 see, and it was standing outside the exit turned towards the east facing

11 the door of the hangar. And after that I saw that pile of dead bodies

12 that I saw when I brought the water.

13 Q. Let us take it slowly, from the beginning. First of all, which

14 way did the bus face? Did the front of the bus face Konjevic Polje or

15 Bratunac, if you can remember?

16 A. Well, I cannot tell you that, whether it was facing Konjevic Polje

17 or whether Kravica, the east, I don't know. At any rate, it was strifed

18 with bullets from the Kravica side.

19 Q. Was it just one side of the vehicle or the flanks as well that was

20 ridden with bullets?

21 A. I couldn't see the flanks. I just could see the front side.

22 Q. To the best of your knowledge, was there any reason to shoot at

23 that bus?

24 A. What can I tell you? Maybe the reason was when that special, that

25 man from the specials, got killed, and when the other one was wounded, the

Page 11783

1 person who had shot them must have also shot at the bus, but what happened

2 after the rifle was taken away from that person, the other special shot at

3 that person. I saw -- in fact I heard later that the shooter himself was

4 wounded but I didn't see any of it myself.

5 Q. You say the person who shot at them probably hit the bus as well?

6 A. That's how I imagine it. The person who shot at the special must

7 have also shot in the direction of the bus, but who else shot from the

8 other side, I can't tell you because I didn't see it.

9 JUDGE KWON: I note Mr. Nicholls on his feet.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, the witness previously said he didn't

11 know and this was going to be pure speculation and my friend is asking him

12 to speculate further.

13 JUDGE KWON: That's right. Let's move on, Mr. Stojanovic.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. At the moment when you were talking with this soldier, or that man

16 from the specials, as you call him, and when he asked you to get water,

17 did you at any time notice that the column of prisoners, Muslim prisoners,

18 was entering the hangar?

19 A. I didn't see that.

20 Q. If I told you that there is a version of these events, according

21 to which the column of Muslim prisoners was entering the hangar and when

22 the last of them was in, the Serb soldier hit him and opened fire and

23 immediately after that, shooting started from all sorts of weapons, would

24 you agree that that is right?

25 A. I don't know. I wasn't there to see who shot at whom and I didn't

Page 11784

1 see the column. I just saw ten or 15 of them outside the hangar close to

2 the door, between 10 and 15. I cannot guarantee how many exactly. And

3 that I saw them when I brought that bucket of water. That's all. I

4 didn't see anything else.

5 Q. When you say you saw between 10 and 15, you mean Bosniaks,

6 Muslims?

7 A. Yes, at the entrance to the hangar, close to the bus.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd quoted

9 transcript from this trial, page 7095, a moment ago.

10 Q. So you stand by what you said, you heard two short bursts of fire

11 and the shooting occurred about five minutes later?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That night of the 13th, the second night after St. Peter's Day,

14 Petrovdan, started quietly, there was no shooting?

15 A. I can't be sure. There were two explosions, strong explosions,

16 two or three, a bit earlier, that I heard, but I don't know anything

17 further.

18 Q. Will you agree that you heard those explosions in the afternoon

19 and not in the night?

20 A. Well, I don't remember the exact time, but I think it was towards

21 the evening, towards dusk, those two or three strong explosions that I

22 heard.

23 Q. If I told you again that there is another version of these events,

24 according to which when the night fell shooting occurred from infantry

25 weapons and after a short lull, hand grenades were thrown through the

Page 11785

1 windows into the warehouse where the prisoners were held, that's

2 transcript 699 --

3 A. I didn't see that and I don't know anything about those hand

4 grenades. If somebody threw them, it may have been from the other side

5 that I couldn't see. I wasn't even close.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, page 45,

7 line 5, the page quoted was 6999, and an additional two lines are on page

8 7.000.

9 Q. Thank you. Could we look at P01563, a Prosecution exhibit? While

10 we are waiting, let me say that this is a photograph of the Kravica

11 warehouse that we have seen in this courtroom before.

12 You saw this photograph, sir?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the centre of this structure, you see four openings without

15 doors.

16 A. I see that.

17 Q. My question is: Did you at any point in those few days, on the

18 12th or the 13th, see any Bosniaks, Muslims, in that part of that

19 building?

20 A. I didn't see that. Just before that, I know that there were some

21 burned-down machines, trucks and tractors.

22 Q. Those machines and tractors, did they occupy all that space?

23 A. This open hangar, it was almost full, almost full of those

24 machines.

25 Q. When you testified before the Court in Bosnia-Herzegovina - and

Page 11786

1 some of that testimony has already been quoted back to you - you said,

2 amongst other things, that among those specials you did not see an officer

3 or somebody who could be taken as a commander.

4 A. No, I did not see anybody. I didn't see a commander. I didn't

5 see what the commander was like. I didn't see anybody.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, I was

7 quoting from transcript that we received from the Prosecution, P02188,

8 page 42 in the B/C/S version.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number?

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 28 in the English version.

11 I will repeat the number. This is Exhibit number P02818, page 41 in the

12 B/C/S version and page 28 in the English version.

13 Q. In practical terms, sir, you saw the two specials, as you called

14 them, who were in your vicinity?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you say that you see maybe two or three more?

17 A. Yes, on the road towards Konjevic Polje.

18 Q. You personally did not see any other specials?

19 A. No, I didn't see anybody.

20 Q. During the night when you stood guard, together with Zoran Eric,

21 they were replaced, they were replaced by some others?

22 A. Yes. That was at midnight.

23 Q. Those whose shift had ended were fair, they treated you well, and

24 they treated the prisoners well?

25 A. Yes, that was the case. I don't know how they treated the

Page 11787

1 prisoners. The person who was there, he asked for some water, when I

2 brought it I saw that they were calm, peaceful, like lambs, and the other,

3 I didn't -- wasn't able to talk to. I couldn't talk to him. There was

4 nothing to talk about.

5 Q. Again I've been warned that in the transcript, your words have

6 been recorded differently.

7 Who said to you that the prisoners were calm?

8 A. The person whom I gave the bucket of water. I thought that he was

9 a special. I don't know who he was. I only know that he was not a local,

10 he was not from our village. Judging by his accent and everything else he

11 was not a local.

12 Q. You know Ilija Nikolic, don't you?

13 A. Of course I do.

14 Q. He was the brother of your then-director, Jovan, wasn't he?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know Nikola Gajic?

17 A. Nikola Gajic? Yes, I do.

18 Q. During those few days, did you see the two of them in the

19 warehouse in Kravica?

20 A. I saw Ilija before that. He arrived with Jovo to the -- to the

21 farm where we were, and later on, I also saw him when he arrived in

22 Kravica. As for Gajic, I don't remember ever seeing him there. Maybe he

23 did arrive but I didn't see him because I was not there 24 hours a day. I

24 had things to do, things to tend to. I didn't stand guard to see who

25 would arrive.

Page 11788

1 Q. Do you know from stories that you heard later on that

2 Ilija Nikolic was there at that place at the time when the incident

3 happened?

4 A. No, I'm not clear on that. I don't know.

5 Q. Could you please help us in clarifying the role of some other

6 persons, the roles that these people possibly had in these events? If I

7 were to tell you that during that time in front of the warehouse,

8 providing security for the prisoners, was also a person whose name is

9 Milo Obradovic, also known as Riba, that together with two other men, in

10 front of the entrance door to the warehouse, he put up a table and

11 interviewed the prisoners looking for those who knew anything about the

12 attack on Kravica on the 7th of January 1993? Would you agree with me

13 that that was the case?

14 A. I am only going to tell you about Milo Obradovic, also known as

15 Riba, that I knew him well. He killed -- he was killed in a traffic

16 accident. He was no longer alive. I know that he brought a crate of beer

17 on one day. Whether it was for himself or not, I don't know. A special

18 asked him whether there was any beer to be had and he said, "I have it."

19 And the special asked where it is and he says, "In the car."

20 Q. My question to you was whether you saw him by a desk at the

21 entrance to the Kravica warehouse where the prisoners were?

22 A. No, I didn't see him. I can't say that I did.

23 Q. Also you did not see who the dead soldier was and you were not

24 sure whether he was the same soldier to whom you had given water?

25 A. I only heard that the person that I had given water to, but I

Page 11789

1 didn't come closer to see.

2 Q. You only heard it from your colleague, Miladin Nikolic?

3 A. Yes, he told me that. I don't know who had told him.

4 Q. And finally, let us look at another exhibit.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is 4D --

6 P01892. P01892. While we are waiting for this document in e-court, I

7 would like to tell you that this is the book called the protocol of the

8 health centre in Bratunac. Could we please look at the page 30 in B/C/S

9 and page 2 in the English version? We've already had an occasion to see

10 that document, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE KWON: I'm afraid whether he would be able to read it. Try

12 your best, Mr. Stojanovic.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honours.

14 I'll try to make it short.

15 Q. You can see for yourself that this is a protocol. Mr. Djukanovic,

16 since you can't see it I still wanted to ask you something. In this

17 protocol of the health centre in Bratunac, on the 1489, it says, on the

18 13th of July 1995, at 1730 hours, a person was brought to the health

19 centre in Bratunac, he was a member of the Red Beret unit, he had been

20 wounded in Kravica, and his name was Milisav Stanojevic or maybe Miroslav

21 Stanojevic, we will establish that later, and he had a gunshot wound or

22 wounds described here in. My question to you is this: Do you know

23 anybody by the name of Miroslav or Milisav Stanojevic?

24 A. Milisav is my best man, Milisav Stanojevic. He is still alive but

25 barely because he is disabled, if we are talking about him. As for

Page 11790

1 Miroslav, I don't know anybody by that name. Milisav had been wounded in

2 the leg. For 12 years he hasn't been able to walk and if you're talking

3 about him, that's my best man and my neighbour and everything.

4 Q. Will you agree that your best man was not born in 1972, that he is

5 a bit older?

6 A. I'm not sure when he was born but I believe he is older.

7 Q. How old is your best man today? Maybe I should ask you this,

8 approximately.

9 A. I know that his brother -- actually, he has two brothers older

10 than him. One is the same age as me. The other was born in 1952 and

11 Milisav is younger than the two of them.

12 Q. Very well. Let's finish with this. Are you familiar with this

13 Red Beret unit?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Did you ever hear that on the strength of the Bratunac Brigade

16 there was a Red Beret unit?

17 A. I only heard that that existed in Belgrade and that they still

18 exist in Belgrade, the Red Berets and in our local midst I never saw them,

19 I never understood anything about them. But I didn't go there that much

20 to know.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic. I don't have any further questions.

22 A. Thank you as well.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

24 Mr. Nicholls, do you have any re-examination?

25 MR. NICHOLLS: May I have one moment?

Page 11791

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

3 Q. Just a couple questions, Mr. Djukanovic. Could I just look at

4 exhibit -- the one we just looked at, the Bratunac hospital record.

5 4DP01892.

6 Mr. Djukanovic, you were read just the first line from this

7 hospital record. Could you scroll over, please? I want to read the next

8 two for you. If we can scroll to the left for Mr. Djukanovic so he can

9 see the beginning. Records 1490 and 1491, both 13 July 1995, the first

10 one, 13 July, 1995 at 1740, Rade, son of Milan, Suteric [phoen], if we

11 scroll over, after his birth-date, we see in the next column, Sekovici and

12 his unit is "MUP special brigade", place of wounding, "Kravica", burns on

13 the palms of his hand. Did you hear any more about what kind of wounding

14 happened to the wounded special in Kravica that you heard about?

15 A. The one who was wounded, he was wounded through the chest. And

16 another gunshot wound through one of his arms. That's what I heard. I

17 did not see it myself. I just heard stories.

18 Q. Okay. The next one, 1491, 13 July 1995 at 1900, Krsto Dragicevic,

19 from Skelani Special Police, Skelani his unit, wounded in Kravica,

20 deceased.

21 A. I didn't know him.

22 Q. Didn't know him?

23 A. I don't know who that was.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Nothing else, then, Your Honours, thank you.

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Djukanovic, that concludes your evidence. I'd

Page 11792

1 like to thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, too.

3 JUDGE KWON: And now you're free to go.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE KWON: I understand that there are two IC documents on your

6 part?

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. Those would be just the two

8 photo stills of Kravica marked by the witness. PIC00114 and PIC00115.

9 JUDGE KWON: I take it there would be no opposition to those from

10 the Defence? Mr. Stojanovic you'd like to tender any exhibits?

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We would like

12 to tender 4D107 for admission. This is the list of members of the

13 R Battalion issued by the Ministry of Defence, the Bratunac Division, on

14 the 10th of July 1995. And as for the other exhibits, I believe that I've

15 only used those that have already been either tendered or admitted, so

16 there is no need for me to retender them.

17 JUDGE KWON: Is it 107 or 157? 107, thank you.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 107.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection.

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. They will be admitted but that list was

21 not translated yet. So they will be marked for identification pending

22 translation.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE KWON: Judge Prost wanted to check that the Prosecution

Page 11793

1 exhibits were included in them. Yes.

2 Shall we bring in the next witness?

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Trivic. If you could kindly read

5 out the solemn declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. I solemnly declare

7 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE KWON: If you would like to take a seat, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Thayer, do we need a Rule 90 warning?

13 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, in these circumstances, I don't think

14 one will be necessary. Thank you.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then it's your witness now.

16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Examination by Mr. Thayer:

18 Q. Sir, good morning.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. Would you please state your name?

21 A. My name is Mirko Trivic.

22 Q. And how old are you?

23 A. 58.

24 Q. And where were you born and raised, sir?

25 A. I was born in a village in Bosanska Gradiska municipality, which

Page 11794

1 is in the territory of the present-day Republika Srpska in Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina.

3 Q. And you identify yourself as a Bosnian Serb; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. I identify myself as a Serb.

5 Q. Now, what I'd like to do for the next few moments, sir, is review

6 with you your military service history. And if I make any mistakes or if

7 there is anything you'd like to clarify please feel free to do so as I

8 move through it, okay?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You completed the command staff academy in 1971 and became a

11 professional soldier in the JNA serving in Slovenia until 1988?

12 A. Yes. I completed the military academy, not the command staff

13 academy. It was a military academy which I completed after the secondary

14 school and that was in 1971. From then to 1988, I served in various

15 garrisons in Slovenia.

16 Q. And you later served in Belgrade as an instructor in the high

17 military academy; is that correct?

18 A. No. After the military academy, I completed the military staff

19 academy, the post-graduate studies of military skills and that education

20 allowed me to apply to be a teacher at the military academy. I was given

21 the job in 1988. I arrived at the centre in Belgrade. I was involved

22 with the tactics department at the military academy, and it was at the

23 military academy where I taught military tactics up to 1990 and then in

24 1990 I was appointed as the head of that year's class, that started

25 education at the military academy in that year.

Page 11795

1 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Let's see if I can get this right.

2 Beginning in January of 1993, you served as the chief of staff of the

3 1st Guards based in Han Pijesak?

4 A. Yes. In January 1993, I joined the army of Republika Srpska and

5 was appointed chief of staff of the 1st Guards Motorised Brigade that was

6 established then in January as a unit of the Main Staff.

7 Q. And you served in the guards until approximately August of 1994,

8 when you took command of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes. I was chief of staff at the Guards Brigade.

11 Q. And when you took command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, you took

12 over from then Colonel Radislav Krstic, who himself then became Chief of

13 Staff to the Drina Corps commander, General Zivanovic; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. I took over duty from the then commander of the 2nd Romanija

15 Motorised Brigade, Colonel Krstic, who was going on to become Chief of

16 Staff at the Drina Corps.

17 Q. You commanded the 2nd Romanija Brigade and if we can refer to it

18 just as the Romanija Brigade to shorten it a little bit, through the

19 Srebrenica and Zepa operations and you were injured in the Zepa operation;

20 is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were on medical leave until the end of June 1996?

23 A. Yes. I was in treatment for 11 months. That's when I was on sick

24 leave.

25 Q. Then reported to the 1st Corps in Banja Luka and served as

Page 11796

1 commander of an infantry brigade at that time?

2 A. Yes. After that treatment, I was appointed to the garrison, the

3 Banja Luka garrison, and I became commander of one infantry brigade in the

4 Banja Luka garrison.

5 Q. And in approximately 1997, you also served as commander of an

6 artillery unit; is that correct?

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask Mr. Thayer to speak

8 into the microphone, thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After being commander of an infantry

10 brigade, there occurred reorganisation in the army and that unit ceased to

11 exist and my specialisation is actually artillery officer so I became

12 commander of the mixed artillery regiment, also in the Banja Luka

13 garrison, in the VRS.

14 Q. And you subsequently served as assistant commander for morale and

15 legal affairs in the corps at that time; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. A year or 18 months later, I became assistant commander of

17 the 1st Corps for morale, political and legal affairs.

18 Q. And you retired with the rank of Colonel in 2002, correct, sir?

19 A. Yes. That's the duty from which I retired in 2002 as a colonel.

20 Q. Now, you were called and testified as a Prosecution witness in the

21 Blagojevic trial in February of 2004 and then you returned as a Defence

22 expert witness in June of 2004; is that correct?

23 A. In the Blagojevic case, I started as a Prosecution witness, with

24 my own consent, in February 2004, and again with my consent and at the

25 request of the Defence counsel, since it was not possible to conduct the

Page 11797

1 cross-examination, the Chamber allowed my engagement as a witness and

2 consultant for the Defence in June 2004.

3 Q. Now, I think as I've mentioned to you before, you're not being

4 called as an expert here. I just want to ask you some questions about

5 your activities on the ground during the time period in which you served

6 in the Srebrenica and Zepa operations, okay?

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 Q. Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber where the 2nd Romanija Brigade

9 was headquartered?

10 A. The command of the 2nd Romanija brigade was stationed in a place

11 called Knezena [phoen] in Sokolac municipality.

12 Q. And would you just roughly describe the geographical boundaries

13 for which your brigade was responsible? If it's easier to refer to some

14 surrounding locations, please do so, we don't need a detailed explanation

15 but generally, sir, if you would?

16 A. The defence lines in the defence area of the brigade were focused

17 on defence from Kladanj-Olovo direction, and I believe that the

18 structures, features that were the boundaries of the forward line of

19 defence were in Krivojevic village. That's the Niksic plateau and they

20 were linked up with units of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and that line

21 then went towards the enemy up to a feature called Slivanj in Han Pijesak

22 municipality. Of course, because of the layout of the terrain, that line

23 went outside of normal rules of brigade organisation. It was a very long

24 line, therefore, over 50 kilometres, covering three municipalities.

25 Q. And what was the strength of your brigade, in terms of overall

Page 11798

1 personnel, both combat and support services, sir?

2 A. You mean the total number in the unit, in the brigade?

3 Q. [Microphone not activated]

4 A. In itself, since it was a motorised brigade, it originated from

5 the JNA with the envisaged establishment equipment. It was well equipped

6 with over 4.000 personnel assigned to all the duties that were envisaged

7 by establishment and manning all the equipment the brigade had.

8 Q. Okay, sir. I want to turn your attention to late June, early

9 July, of 1995. With respect to the Srebrenica operation, did you receive

10 any particular order informing you to prepare for an action?

11 A. In end June or maybe beginning of July, I can't remember the exact

12 date now, I received a preparatory order in the brigade command to make a

13 selection and form a unit for active duty, active operations, and these

14 men had to be picked out of my units and prepared for engagement outside

15 the brigade's area.

16 Q. And from whom was that order issued and in what form was it

17 issued, sir?

18 A. The order was issued by the corps commander. It is his privilege

19 to issue orders. And it was a preparatory order based on an evaluation of

20 the situation in the corps, the command issued such orders to all the

21 units, including my brigade, to prepare my brigade.

22 Q. And just to be clear, sir, at this time, we are speaking about

23 General Zivanovic, commander of the Drina Corps; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, yes, the corps commander was General Zivanovic.

25 Q. So what specifically did you do in response to that order, in

Page 11799

1 terms of forming this unit for active duty?

2 A. According to normal procedure, I studied the order, consulted my

3 co-workers and commanding officers in the command, and prepared

4 assignments for subordinate units, to prepare the personnel, which is

5 ready and which they evaluate to be capable of performing tasks outside

6 the zone of the brigade, together with the logistical support, that is

7 younger and abler men. And of course, after that, they had to be pulled

8 out of their units from the lines on which they were deployed.

9 Q. Now, in pulling these soldiers and resources away from your

10 brigade to form this combat group, if I may call it that, how did you

11 ensure that the brigade would be able to continue to carry out its own

12 mission, duties and responsibilities?

13 A. My main approach and the approach of my command and other

14 officers, who participated in the decision-making, is not to harm the

15 combat readiness of any unit, any battalion in doing so and to pull out

16 one platoon from each battalion and no battalion should be considerably

17 affected by the absence, temporary absence, of one platoon.

18 Q. And how many soldiers approximately all together did your combat

19 group contain?

20 A. Sometime -- in fact somewhere in my documents I have the exact

21 number but I believe that combat group was around 200 men, including me.

22 Q. And did that also include the rear services personnel as well or

23 is that actual combat individuals?

24 A. The entire group, including me, down to the last soldier who was

25 engaged in the logistical support of that group.

Page 11800

1 Q. Now, were you told the approximate size of this combat group that

2 you were supposed to constitute?

3 A. I don't remember very clearly, but in view of our strength, it was

4 the equivalent of a strong infantry company reinforced with a platoon of

5 tanks, which I remember arrived to that area after they received their

6 assignment.

7 Q. And what other specific weaponry elements did this combat group

8 contain?

9 A. There were three tanks. That's one tank platoon that I mentioned.

10 And from each battalion, one infantry platoon was taken. Two mortars.

11 And the rest was infantry weapons carried by soldiers.

12 Q. Other than the mortars, did you take any other artillery or heavy

13 weaponry with you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And did you assign someone to command this combat group?

16 A. Yes. I assigned and stipulated in my own order that the commander

17 of that combat group would be my operations officer, Major Ljubo Eric.

18 Q. At some point did you then receive an order to move your unit,

19 sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what did it instruct you to do?

22 A. It was ordered that this unit should arrive on the 5th of July in

23 the morning to the area of Zeleni Jadar, that it should deploy there and

24 await further instructions.

25 Q. And did you follow that order, sir, and if so, did your combat

Page 11801

1 group arrive at the appointed time in the Zeleni Jadar area?

2 A. Yes. They came on time, and awaited further orders there, and I

3 conveyed to them those orders.

4 Q. And were you based in any particular location in the Zeleni Jadar

5 area?

6 A. That is a small population centre, Jasenova village. I classified

7 it as a village. And that's where my forward command post of the brigade

8 for that task was established, including the commander of that combat

9 group, myself and all the other organs involved in the combat group

10 assigned from the brigade command.

11 Q. And at some point after you arrived, together with your combat

12 group, at that location, did you receive an order personally to report

13 anywhere?

14 A. The combat group marched on its own and I received an assignment

15 to report to Pribicevac area on the 5th, where I received specific tasks

16 stipulating the axes of action. I was briefed and oriented as a person

17 coming from a different area. We got areas where reconnaissance was to be

18 conducted. We were given axes along which to act. And in the afternoon

19 of the 5th, the other commanders received their instructions and their

20 specific orders within the Krivaja 95 operation.

21 Q. And to whom did you report, sir, at Pribicevac?

22 A. Colonel Krstic, or General Krstic, I think he was already general

23 by that time, who led the reconnaissance in the stage of preparation for

24 that mission.

25 Q. Now, you referred to the Pribicevac area. Was there some sort of

Page 11802

1 command post based there, and if so, can you tell the Trial Chamber what

2 it was?

3 A. From the way things developed later, I knew of course that the

4 forward command post of the Drina Corps was there, but I and the others

5 did not participate at the forward command post. We were instead at a

6 topographic feature which provided a good vantage point of the area where

7 the units would be engaged in the future, so we were not actually at the

8 command post but at a point, at a feature from which we were able to

9 orient ourselves in that area and see the axes of future action. It was

10 actually an observation point where -- from which we could see various

11 roads, various structures, communications, et cetera.

12 Q. You referred to other commanders receiving their instruction.

13 Which other brigades do you recall participating in this operation? And

14 if you would, when you refer to the brigade, if you could also refer to

15 the name of the commander of the brigade as well, please?

16 A. In that operation, mainly involved were parts of the brigades

17 which had defence areas within the corps's area, and only the

18 Romanija Brigade was an exception. It had nothing no do with Srebrenica

19 or Zepa until then. So there was the commander of the Bratunac Brigade,

20 Mr. -- or rather Colonel Pandurevic, I believe the commander of the Milic

21 Brigade was there.

22 Q. If I just may interrupt you, sir, you identified according to the

23 transcript the commander of the Bratunac Brigade being Colonel Pandurevic,

24 just wanted to make sure I didn't read that wrong.

25 A. No, no, not Bratunac. The commander of the Bratunac Brigade --

Page 11803

1 which transcript do you mean?

2 Q. I'm looking at my live transcript of your answer, sir. That's

3 what I'm referring to. So I just wanted to make sure that I didn't read

4 it wrong. If you would just please start over and if you can recall the

5 brigades that were involved in this operation and the commanders of those

6 brigades?

7 A. Involved in the operation were the Bratunac Brigade,

8 Colonel Blagojevic was its commander; the Zvornik Brigade commanded by

9 Colonel Pandurevic; the Milic Brigade commanded by Captain First Class or

10 Major Nastic; the Bircanska Brigade commanded by Colonel Andric; and the

11 Skelani Independent Battalion led by Colonel Vukota, I believe. I think

12 Vukota was the name.

13 Q. Just a couple follow-up questions, sir. You referred to the

14 Skelani Independent Battalion. The name suggests something. Can you just

15 tell the Trial Chamber to what entity that battalion is attached?

16 A. That battalion, as the name says, was an independent battalion

17 within the Drina Corps.

18 Q. And I'm again looking at my transcript and I'm not seeing the name

19 of the brigade that you identified as being commanded by Colonel Andric.

20 Can you just say that again for the record, please?

21 A. Bircanska Brigade from Sekovici, its command was in Sekovici.

22 Q. And sir was that also referred sometimes as the Birac Brigade, and

23 as the 1st Sekovici Brigade?

24 A. Yes. That's the brigade, Sekovici Brigade or Birac Brigade, from

25 the Birca area. That's the brigade.

Page 11804

1 Q. Now, you're at this observation point. As you sit here today, can

2 you recall which of these commanders you personally saw there at that

3 time, if any?

4 A. In my previous interviews and statements, I've explained that I

5 remember, and that I've also recorded for myself - I did it in a notebook

6 that I always carried on me - I mostly recorded those that were my

7 next-door neighbours, whose activities depended on mine and vice versa,

8 and as for Colonel Pandurevic, since we were neighbours in carrying out

9 our tasks, and when I say neighbours, I mean our units were next to each

10 other, he was there, I'm sure. As for the others, whether they were on

11 that observation point, I can't say whether they were there personally or

12 they had delegated their group commanders or something. I wouldn't be

13 able to talk about that.

14 MR. THAYER: I see it's time for a break, sir.

15 JUDGE KWON: We'll break for 25 minutes.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Good afternoon again, sir.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. Sir, before we continue with the movements of your combat group.

23 I just wanted to follow up --?

24 JUDGE KWON: I could hardly hear you. Could you repeat?

25 MR THAYER: I'll get closer to the microphone. Okay, that's

Page 11805

1 better?

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, now we can hear you. Please go ahead.

3 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Sir, I just wanted to go back to a couple of answers you gave, and

5 I know it's been 12 years since these events. I know you've spent a long

6 time here since you've been here reviewing all of your prior statements

7 and testimony, you've met with a number of teams, including meeting with

8 myself. So I just want to make sure that we are getting your best

9 recollection about certain events.

10 You testified just before the break that your recollection was

11 that the strength of your combat unit was approximately a strong company.

12 Do you recall your testimony on this subject in the Blagojevic case

13 involving what the strength of your numbers were, the strength of that

14 combat group? It's not a major point but I just want to make sure that we

15 are getting your best recollection. Do you recall what you said on this

16 issue in Blagojevic and if you don't, if my reading you your answer help

17 refresh your recollection, I can certainly do that.

18 A. I assume that when I said that I meant an equivalent of the

19 battalion. If this is what you mean, then, yes, that was the case as far

20 as I remember. When I was preparing for this, and as I was studying the

21 materials that I had, the strength of a unit can be given almost to the

22 last soldier. And when you take that into account, and when you ponder on

23 that, then it would not be even 50 per cent of a battalion. That's why

24 I've used the term "strong company". Hence the difference.

25 There is no other difference. I still adhere by what I have

Page 11806

1 stated before. Since I was given some other units. But here I'm talking

2 about my strength, from the brigade, not the original strength that I had

3 under my command originally. The total strength you have in my materials

4 that you have used, that you have at your disposal, my original was

5 reinforced by some troops that equalled a battalion. No longer the strong

6 company that I had from my brigade. If you want me to, I can give you the

7 material that I have consulted but that you already have.

8 Q. That's fine. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that. And do you

9 recall whether the order you received required a battalion strength unit

10 to be formed? Or was it some other unit that you were asked to form? And

11 if you don't recall, that's fine. I just want to find out what your best

12 current recollection is.

13 A. The unit that I was supposed to command, I don't know exactly what

14 it says in the preparatory order, but I know that it should have been a

15 combat group and that all together, the whole strength that I had under my

16 command equalled a battalion before I could say that it was something of a

17 strong company that I had received from my brigade.

18 Q. Okay. The second issue I just wanted to revisit with you briefly

19 is the location -- the actual location of this first meeting that you had

20 when you reported to General Krstic on the 5th. You've described being at

21 an observation location in the area of the Pribicevac IKM. Do you recall

22 what you testified to in Blagojevic - and this is at page 7474, in case

23 anybody is looking at the English - with respect to where you had your

24 first briefing with General Krstic? Again it's not a major issue. I just

25 wanted to make sure we are getting your best recollection on this, sir.

Page 11807

1 And if you like, I can read you the answer that you gave in the Blagojevic

2 case to that question.

3 A. The first oral report or debriefing on the unit leaving the area

4 of responsibility was at the command position of the Bratunac Brigade.

5 Nobody ever asked about the place where the task was issued. To this very

6 day I have never been asked where that task was actually implemented. And

7 as for the final task and the report on the unit leaving, its strength,

8 what we had at our disposal, that report, that debriefing, was at the

9 command post of the Bratunac Brigade.

10 Q. Okay. So just so we are clear, did you -- do you recall ever

11 reporting to General Krstic at the actual Bratunac Brigade headquarters

12 itself in Bratunac, as opposed to anywhere else out in the field on the

13 5th of July?

14 A. But of course, of course. That's what I'm saying. Before the

15 tasks were given where the activities were supposed to start, we had to

16 report as to how many men we had in every unit that had arrived in the

17 territory from which they would be deployed into combat. That was the

18 combat -- the command position of the Bratunac Brigade in Bratunac.

19 That's where I submitted my briefing. I received tasks about the

20 beginning of attack. As for the rest, that was at the observation point

21 in the general area of the forward command post in Pribicevac.

22 Q. And you went to Pribicevac after reporting to the command

23 headquarters in Bratunac, just to be clear.

24 A. I believe that we were briefed even before that. We were given

25 the situation, the deployment, the strength of the forces, and then at the

Page 11808

1 command post we were given the beginning of attack order, we reported on

2 the strength of the unit. We did everything that is customarily done

3 before any action.

4 Q. Now, at the observation point that you were discussing just prior

5 to the break, you told us that you recall seeing Commander Pandurevic

6 there. Do you recall seeing any other Drina Corps officers at that

7 location at that time?

8 A. Yes. I remember, and according to the customary procedure, there

9 was also the intelligence man from the Drina Corps, who was there, who

10 briefed us about the situation and the estimates of the situation on the

11 enemy side. He also gave us an estimate of their strength, deployment,

12 according to what he knew, according to the intelligence that he had. He

13 was an officer whom I had not seen before. There was also Colonel Vicic

14 who gave us the task. He was the operations guy. Who else? I don't

15 remember who else was there but these two were certainly there. That's

16 how I have recorded it.

17 Q. Do you recall the name of this intelligence officer with the

18 corps?

19 A. I learned later on that I believe that he was

20 Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric. I don't know his name but his family name was

21 Kosoric.

22 Q. Do you recall seeing any Main Staff officers at this time?

23 A. No. I don't remember.

24 Q. How about any MUP officers, sir?

25 A. I don't recall.

Page 11809

1 Q. Now, you've already discussed the general subject matter of this

2 briefing and meeting. Did you receive any further orders, specific

3 orders, while were you there, and, if so, what were they?

4 A. Where? At the observation point or at the command post in

5 Bratunac?

6 Q. Let's start with the observation point. Were you given any

7 specific orders at that time?

8 A. At the observation point, before the beginning of the task, what

9 is usually given, and that's why we met there on that occasion, axes, the

10 estimated deployment, and lines of defence on the axes of activity, an

11 estimate of the strength of the enemy on the lines, what can be expected,

12 where the artillery devices are. This is the procedure which is

13 undertaken in every situation before you start preparing for the

14 implementation of the task, before you start moving the units into

15 offensive, and also what is given are the lines that are expected to be

16 achieved at the end of the task. This is the procedure that is regulated

17 by the rules for the operation of staffs, commands, units, everything that

18 is prescribed as a procedure which allow the officers to orientate

19 themselves before the task and prepare their units for the estimated

20 situation and what lies ahead, what can be expected.

21 These are tasks that are usually recorded and spelled out in any

22 combat order or attack order.

23 Q. And were you given a combat-readiness date, sir, that is a date by

24 which the forces would be ready to go into action?

25 A. Yes. It was given in Bratunac. Whatever was not supposed to be

Page 11810

1 dealt with on the ground was dealt with in Bratunac at the command post

2 when we received the attack order.

3 Q. And what was that combat-readiness date, sir? If you remember.

4 A. It was on the 6th of July, I believe; not that I believe, I know

5 that the 6th of July was specified as the combat-readiness date.

6 Q. And, sir, what was the main objective, as you understood it, of

7 this operation?

8 A. The main objective of the operation that was set out by the corps

9 command as a result of the events of the previous months -- years and

10 months, that preceded this decision, was to separate the protected areas

11 of Zepa and Srebrenica, in view of the fact that there were constant

12 incidents, sabotage actions from the protected zones and losses were

13 suffered both on the lines and in the villages that were in the immediate

14 vicinity of the protected areas. And the tasks of the units were geared

15 towards that general task and that's how the task was spelled out. And

16 from that general task, all the other tasks arose, and this also

17 influenced the implementation of the commitment that the Muslim side had

18 taken on two years before and the task was the commitment was to

19 demilitarise those zones in order to allow the two peoples to live

20 normally. That was my understanding of the task. And the objective of

21 those offensive operations.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Krgovic?

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a minor correction

24 in the transcript. The answer was not recorded on page 17 [as

25 interpreted], line 20, page 70, line 12, the witness said sabotage and

Page 11811

1 terrorist actions. And the only thing that we have recorded in the

2 transcript is sabotage actions. The terrorist actions were omitted from

3 the transcript. Maybe the witness could repeat that for the record.

4 JUDGE KWON: Can I ask Colonel Trivic whether he can confirm this.

5 Did you say sabotage and terrorist action?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what I said.

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please proceed.


9 Q. And did part of the objective of separating the two enclaves also

10 involve in any way affecting the size of the enclaves?

11 A. With the very separation and entry of units into that interspace

12 between enclaves, that were held anyway by the units of VRS, the Skelani

13 Battalion and part of the Milici Brigade, with the very separation, a

14 certain effect was created on the territory of those protected areas

15 because it's precisely from that territory that I won't say under the

16 protection but under the shield of UNPROFOR units, UNPROFOR points,

17 incursions had been made before, against our units. And all the actions

18 that do not target the army are considered to be terrorists, because it

19 was not only soldiers that were on those lines but mainly the civilian

20 population. That's why I characterised this, that's the way I understood

21 it, that these were sabotage actions, terrorist acts, where people doing

22 work in their yards, in their fields, would be killed, their throats would

23 be slit, they would be robbed, and left to rot. So these units had the

24 task to separate the enclaves and that implied a narrowing down of the

25 territory in which they were active.

Page 11812

1 Q. So do I understand your answer correctly, sir, then, that a

2 component of the objective of this operation was to reduce the size of the

3 enclaves themselves, in addition to separating them?

4 A. First came the separation, and from that follows automatically a

5 narrowing down of the area.

6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Meek?

7 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I'm sorry, for clarity's sake, when the

8 Prosecutor asked "reducing the size", is he referring to the population

9 size or the area geographically?

10 MR. THAYER: I thank my friend for that clarification.

11 Q. Sir, I presume we've been understanding each other that we are

12 talking about the geographical size of the enclaves, not the numbers of

13 the population; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And do you have any recollection as to the size to which your army

16 was planning to reduce these enclaves?

17 A. No. I don't remember.

18 Q. Now, after these briefings on the 5th of July, did you return to

19 your base in Jasenova and if so, what did you do?

20 A. I left that meeting and went to the IKM in the area of Jasenova

21 and conveyed to the commanding officers their respective tasks. I

22 notified them of their respective missions related to the beginning of the

23 operation, the introduction of units on various axes, the method of

24 execution of these tasks, and methods of support in the way that is normal

25 when you convey to various units and their commanders the tasks received.

Page 11813

1 Q. Sir, I note that you've taken out what I believe is your diary

2 that I've furnished to my friends, and it's perfectly appropriate if you

3 need to, to refer to it in answer to some of my questions or the questions

4 of my colleagues or the Trial Chamber, but I would ask that, unless you

5 absolutely have to, if you could put it to the side so that we all

6 understand that when you're answering a question that it's coming from

7 your memory and if you do need the aid that we know for the record when

8 you're getting the aid, okay? Thank, sir.

9 Now, without going into too much detail, Zeleni Jadar is to the

10 south of Srebrenica, Jasenova is located where in respect to Zeleni Jadar,

11 just orient us north, south, east, west?

12 A. You're right, Zeleni Jadar is to the south, but Jasenova is in the

13 immediate vicinity of what is known as Zeleni Jadar, as it is marked on

14 the map, and it's in the immediate vicinity on a plateau. There are

15 several houses of Jasenova village where my units were deployed, and the

16 forward command post that had the task of performing command in the

17 execution of these tasks. Relative to Zeleni Jadar, Jasenova is to the

18 west, one or two kilometres to the west. But you could also say it is

19 south to Srebrenica.

20 Q. Okay. And what was the axis of attack for your combat group, just

21 in terms of directionally, sir, first, and then if you can give us some

22 towns or locations, villages, that would help orient us, please do so.

23 Again we don't need a whole lot of detail but just generally.

24 A. I have already dealt with these questions more than once and

25 reminded myself, so it's Jasenova village, Kiprovo, Slapovici, Zivkovo

Page 11814

1 Hill, Bojna, Stupina. All of these are rather geographic features or

2 settlements on that axis or otherwise prominent features that were laid

3 out along that line, and are to the west of my unit's position and the

4 settlement of Srebrenica. You could say that it was a kind of axis for

5 the engagement of my unit in active combat, that was a reference point to

6 determine the axis of engagement of my unit. Those are the features that

7 I remember. If you want more detail I would have to refresh my memory but

8 I think this is enough.

9 Q. The direction, just roughly, is north-northwest from your position

10 in Jasenova, is that fair to say?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, from your position facing your axis of attack, did you have

13 any brigade formations or neighbours to your right? And if so, what was

14 it? Who were they?

15 A. My neighbour to the right was a part of the Zvornik Brigade.

16 Q. And when you say a part of the Zvornik Brigade, do you recall

17 whether that part was a particular unit and, if so, was it commanded by

18 anyone in particular?

19 A. There were units from the Zvornik Brigade led by Major Jolovic,

20 also known as Legenda.

21 Q. And do you recall what the name of his particular unit was, sir?

22 A. That usual name was used, in view of their importance and their

23 experience and their readiness for executing missions, they had an unusual

24 name, the Drina Wolves, I believe that was the full name of that unit.

25 Q. And who was your neighbour to the left, sir?

Page 11815

1 A. My neighbour to the left was a unit from the 1st Birac Brigade.

2 Q. Now, just to move things along, if I can, you had a date of 6 July

3 for combat readiness. But is it fair to say that not much happened until

4 the 9th?

5 A. As far as my unit was concerned, on that particular axis, there

6 was no action, nothing was started because the conditions were bad, the

7 fog was very dense. I just reported that visibility was very poor. If we

8 engaged in combat, we would get lost, and there were no prominent features

9 to help us orient ourselves so we didn't start anything.

10 Q. Would you please describe the terrain on your axis, just briefly?

11 A. You mean the configuration of the terrain?

12 Q. No, just the nature of the ground.

13 A. Hilly, mountainous, hilly terrain, with features that are suitable

14 for taking up positions and making fortifications but very difficult for

15 offensive actions because you would need very well-trained forces to get

16 anywhere near defence lines.

17 Q. And on 9 July, were you in fact able to begin advancing?

18 A. On the 9th of July, parts of my unit moved to attack in typical

19 military movement, with offensive reconnaissance, as we call it in the

20 military, and we wanted to see how ready the enemy forces were, how well

21 they organised their defence, and then we were supposed to mount an attack

22 in the area of Kiprovo village. As far as I remember, it was an area

23 occupied by the cemetery of that village, at a mountain pass, at

24 elevation, and when we emerged there, we got a view of the slope, and from

25 that point on, it was much easier to make decisions and decide on further

Page 11816

1 lines of movements for the unit.

2 Q. And as you advanced, did you reach some sort of refugee

3 settlement?

4 A. Yes, in this careful movement, we reached a refugee settlement

5 that we were aware of. It's called Slapovic. By that time, there were no

6 longer even occasional shootings from the other side, from the enemy side,

7 and we saw in that settlement prefab houses probably donated by some

8 foreign organisations, and the Muslim population. It was the middle of

9 the day when we got there and realised there was no fire from that

10 settlement.

11 Q. Do you recall whether you saw any people in the settlement at that

12 time? Or had it been abandoned?

13 A. It was abandoned. There were no people.

14 Q. And along your group's axis, were there any UN observation posts,

15 sir?

16 A. On my axis, on my unit's axis, there were no observation points.

17 Q. You indicated earlier that, I believe, other than some mortars,

18 your combat group did not bring any artillery or heavy weaponry with it;

19 is that correct?

20 A. No, only two mortars.

21 Q. Do you recall shelling during this period of time and over the

22 next couple of days, either in your area or within ear-shot of your

23 position?

24 A. Not that I recall. All the fire was from the mortars that I had,

25 82 millimetres, and 100, 200 metres ahead of my forces, one or two shells

Page 11817

1 were dropped to see if any forces would emerge in response, but we didn't

2 see any forces in position on the line of our movement, nor did we see any

3 casualties. I didn't see and I don't remember any other fire, any other

4 shelling, especially not large calibre. I suppose I would have heard it.

5 Q. And were there any fixed military targets that you were provided

6 with on any kind of list or that you became aware of on your axis?

7 A. No. I wasn't given anything of the kind.

8 Q. And, sir, you spent the night of 9 July back at your base in

9 Jasenova; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And to keep things moving along, bringing you up to the 10th of

12 July, were you redirected in any way at that time, sir?

13 A. You mean with my unit or on my own?

14 Q. Your unit, sir. Was your unit -- did your unit or yourself

15 receive any orders to redirect your unit on the 10th of July?

16 A. Yes. I received the assignment to continue along the axis towards

17 Stupina which was a small adjustment because the axis that had been given

18 the brigade, the northwestern part of the territory relative to Srebrenica

19 and we were told to continue.

20 MR. THAYER: Okay of the I thank you, sir. We'll stop on 10 July,

21 I think, for the time being, if we may, Mr. President, we do have one

22 brief scheduling matter that we've been in contact with our friends about

23 that we would like to bring to the Chamber's attention in just a couple of

24 minutes, if we could.

25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Mr. Trivic, we are going to adjourn for

Page 11818

1 the day with your evidence. We'll resume at 9.00 on Monday. In the

2 meantime, if -- I would like to advise you not to discuss your evidence

3 with anyone.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand and I'm familiar with

5 that from my previous visits and cautions I received earlier.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Now you are free to go.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 JUDGE KWON: So Mr. Thayer, you're going to deal with it?

9 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. If I may just wait until the

10 witness leaves.

11 Mr. President, we are constantly looking at the witness schedule

12 and the time estimates. Given the pace at which this week and today has

13 unfolded, given the length of cross-examination that's estimated for the

14 current witness, and particularly given the fact that we have the Defence

15 intercept expert scheduled for next Wednesday and Thursday as fixed days,

16 we are really going to try to, I think, complete that beginning -- begin

17 and complete that testimony in two days. We are going to have to withdraw

18 the witness who is currently scheduled to follow the current witness. I

19 believe he's Witness 102, Mr. Salapura.

20 I think we are going to have to send him home because we simply

21 are not going to have any realistic chance of completing his testimony

22 before the intercept operator begins to testify. I think that this

23 current witness, given the time estimates, may take us well enough into

24 Tuesday so that calling Mr. Salapura will inevitably involve having to

25 break up his testimony, potentially in the early part, and then bring him

Page 11819

1 back, who knows when. He's already been here for a bit of time. We've

2 consulted with as many of our friends as we could over the break and that

3 we just wanted to advise the Court of that significant change in the

4 schedule and I'll incorporate that into the usual scheduling memo that I

5 send out.

6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Thayer, are you in the position to tell us how

9 long are you going to -- you are going to stay with this current witness?

10 MR. THAYER: I'm going to do my best it try to move it along

11 faster. I think it's going to be probably an hour more with him. Things

12 will pick up. We are about to enter Srebrenica and I think things will

13 pick up a little bit.

14 It may be more than an hour but I think I can do the remaining

15 testimony in an hour, and then we've got, as I understand it, over four

16 hours of cross-examination.

17 JUDGE KWON: That's what I'd like to ask the Defence, whether they

18 would stand by with their estimate tendered earlier.

19 MR. JOSSE: I'm happy to go first, Your Honour. Mr. Krgovic is

20 going to cross-examine the witness but we wrote to the court officer

21 earlier this week to say we would take rather longer with this witness

22 than we had originally planned. Mr. Krgovic's present estimate is 90

23 minutes.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes?

25 MR. HAYNES: I was simply going to say that we've been alive to

Page 11820

1 this issue since the last break when we all got together. There has been

2 quite a good deal of e-mail correspondence on the length of

3 cross-examination, and everybody is doing their very best to be as

4 accurate as possible and I think the current estimates add up to something

5 like five hours, and I have, I think, the authority to say that everybody

6 is doing their very best to say that that is accurate.

7 JUDGE KWON: Five hours in total?

8 MR. HAYNES: Yes. So I think Mr. Thayer is quite right, it will

9 take us to the end of Tuesday.

10 JUDGE KWON: I take it that Defence is, in general, happy with the

11 suggestion of Mr. Thayer?

12 MR. HAYNES: I think so, yes.

13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

14 We will adjourn for the week and resume on Monday at 9.00. Please

15 have a nice weekend, everybody.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of May,

18 2007, at 9.00 a.m.