1 Friday, 15 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [Accused Popovic and Beara not present]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you kindly
8 call the case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
10 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. For the record, accused Popovic
12 and Beara are still missing due to indisposition. We understand that the
13 waivers will reach us in the course of today. Do I have a confirmation of
14 that and also formal waiver from you, Mr. Zivanovic, and you Mr. Meek?
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, of course, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek?
17 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. For the record also I notice the absence
19 of Mr. Krgovic, of Ms. Condon and Mr. Ostojic. Anyone else? I don't
20 think so.
21 Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 And we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis today. Judge Stole
23 couldn't be with us.
24 All right. Now, we have concerns about the practice that has been
25 resorted to with some of the recent witnesses where both Prosecution and
1 Defence have exceeded the time that was indicated to us prior to the
2 testimony. We do understand that sometimes this can become necessary but
3 there are limits, and these limits are easy for you to understand, one of
4 which was handed to me yesterday by Mr. McCloskey himself that sometimes
5 we end up with witnesses here, staying here, for an entire week without
6 being called to testify. I think out of all the options that we have, the
7 first thing is that we try to deal with this in the same spirit that we
8 have approached the testimony from the beginning of this trial, that is
9 expecting both sides, Prosecution and Defence, to exercise self-restraint
10 and self-discipline without the need of us interfering. Please don't
11 force our hands because if you do, then we will have to intervene.
12 As regards this witness, we have given it a lot of thought and we
13 suggest to you that you do your utmost, all of you, to finish with this
14 witness today.
15 Yes, Mr. Haynes. First of all, let me say good morning to the
16 witness. Good morning, Mr. Dragutinovic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We are continuing with your testimony. Mr. Haynes
19 will continue his cross-examination. Mr. Haynes.
20 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 WITNESS: MIODRAG DRAGUTINOVIC [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dragutinovic.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. When you were giving evidence-in-chief, you told us a little bit
2 about the formation of Tactical Group 1 and I'm going to ask you just a
3 few questions about that this morning. It's right, isn't it, that the
4 formation of that group was substantially the responsibility of your
5 commander, Vinko Pandurevic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And once he had been tasked with the responsibility of forming
8 Tactical Group 1, he had to require Dragan Obrenovic to come back to
9 command the brigade because Dragan Obrenovic had been on sick leave in
10 June. That's right also, isn't it?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. I entirely understand if you couldn't answer this question, but do
13 you have any recollection of the precise date upon which Dragan Obrenovic
14 came back to the brigade on duty?
15 A. No, I don't remember the exact date.
16 Q. In relation to Tactical Group 1, you yourself gave the order to
17 march, didn't you?
18 A. Yes. I wrote it and it was on the basis of that order that the
19 march took place.
20 Q. Now, I just want to explore with you a little bit, and I'm going
21 to show you some documents to help your memory, the -- about the
22 composition of Tactical Group 1 and I wonder whether we could start by
23 having P106, at page 48, put into e-court, please. No, I'm sorry, P106.
24 I don't need a page for that document. And if the witness's attention
25 could be focused on point 2.
1 Can you look at that and read it to yourself, Mr. Dragutinovic,
2 and then confirm to me that the contribution that the Zvornik Brigade made
3 to Tactical Group 1 was a strengthened light infantry brigade, sorry,
4 battalion, a strengthened light infantry battalion?
5 A. Paragraph 2(A), the Zvornik Brigade has to form a unit, one light
6 battalion strong. That's what we did.
7 Q. And in terms of the precise number of men that that involved, I'm
8 going to show you another document now, it's P384, and this is page 48.
9 I think if you read through this page of the war diary, it will
10 show you that on the 4th of July, 407 men left the Standard barracks. Can
11 the page go down, please? The relevant section isn't -- there you are.
12 A. Yes. It is a document of the war diary. It says, indeed, 407
13 men. However, the number I know, and the difference is small, is 394. We
14 had formed a unit of 394 men but the discrepancy is minor.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic. That's very helpful.
16 And in fact that number of men is rather smaller than one light
17 infantry brigade, isn't it?
18 A. Light infantry battalion, not brigade.
19 Q. Sorry, my mistake again. Light infantry battalion but 394 men is
20 rather smaller than a light infantry battalion?
21 A. Battalion, yes.
22 Q. So --
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. In any event, the suggestion that the Zvornik Brigade contributed
25 two battalions to Tactical Group 1 would be quite incorrect, wouldn't it?
1 A. No. That is not true.
2 Q. Now, I want to move on to a particular unit of the
3 Zvornik Brigade, that's the Podrinje Detachment, which you described in
4 your evidence the other day as a manoeuvres battalion; is that correct?
5 Those are the same things?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And with the assistance of some other brigade records, I'd like to
8 confirm with you the size of that particular unit, and I wonder whether we
9 could look at P382, please. We need to go, I think, to the second page of
10 this document. Now, if you look at the fourth entry down, does that show
11 the numbers in July of 1995 of the manoeuvres battalion of the
12 Zvornik Brigade?
13 A. Yes. That is the status of the manoeuvring battalion of
14 360-something people. That's all the men who were in that manoeuvre
15 battalion but that's not just the combat component. It includes the
16 logistics and all the other non-combat components. The tactical group
17 however included only the combat component.
18 Q. And would that number also include members of that battalion who
19 were on sick leave or wounded?
20 A. Yes. This is the total number of men in that manoeuvre
21 detachment, and all those who were included in the battalion, including
22 everybody, those on sick leave, those who were wounded. They were not
23 written off. They are included in the number.
24 Q. Now, I want to move on a little to ask you about the operations
25 that that unit was involved in in June and July of 1995. It's right,
1 isn't it, that the manoeuvres battalion or the Podrinje Detachment, or the
2 Drina Wolves as they are sometimes known, were engaged in the region of
3 the Sarajevo Romanija brigade in July of 1995?
4 A. Yes. One part of that detachment was in the area of the Sarajevo
5 theatre of war. So not all of the detachment was part of Tactical Group
7 Q. Thank you. And just to get some idea of how many of that
8 detachment were involved in the Sarajevo Romanija Brigade region, can we
9 have a look at P378 at page 70? If you look at the entry for 1400 hours,
10 for the 16th of June of 1995, I think you'll see that that shows that 85
11 men and eight vehicles of the manoeuvres battalion departed for the region
12 of the Sarajevo Romanija Brigade; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, yes. You can see it here. Correct.
14 Q. And was one of the commanders of that unit a man called Pepic?
15 A. Yes, that was the commander of that company that was in the
16 Sarajevo theatre of war.
17 Q. And we can see a little of what happened to him if we look at
18 P377, at page 101. Can that be placed into e-court? The time we are
19 looking for is 1405 so the page needs to go down a little bit and I think
20 that shows us from the duty officer's notebook that Pepic, the commander
21 of that brigade, was wounded in the region of Trnovo on about the 6th of
22 July; is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, 394 men were contributed by the Zvornik Brigade
25 to Tactical Group 1, but that still left substantial numbers of men and
1 resources available to the brigade's area of defence, didn't it?
2 A. Well, yes, because this Tactical Group 1 included only one light
3 infantry battalion size unit, a smaller part of the Zvornik Brigade.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to move on now, please, to the movements
5 of Tactical Group 1, between the 4th of July and the 10th, please, and to
6 that end I'm going to ask that 7D64 be put into e-court. And when it's
7 there, we'll manoeuvre it appropriately so that you can mark it for us.
8 You might have to wait a little while, Mr. Dragutinovic. This is a map
9 and they take a bit of time to come up.
10 I think we need to go south a little, and a bit more. That's
12 Now, on the first day of march, the unit left Standard. Did it
13 move all as one unit on that day?
14 A. We divided the march into two segments. In the first segment, the
15 armoured mechanised company went on the route of Bjelovac, Pribicevac, et
16 cetera and then the axis --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat that? He did that very
18 fast, much too fast.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Dragutinovic, can you repeat the last part of
20 your answer, please? You said, "We divided the march into two segments.
21 In the first segment, the armoured mechanised company went on the route of
22 Bjelovac, Pribicevac ..." Can you continue from there, please?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zvornik, Bratunac, Bjelovac, Sase,
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And the second segment?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the second one, that's the
2 infantry part, went Zvornik, Bratunac, Bjelovac, Skelani, Zeleni Jadar.
3 MR. HAYNES:
4 Q. I'm going to ask that you be provided with some pens now so you
5 can mark on this map where the units moved to. We know that you began in
6 Zvornik and you're not going to be able to show us that because it's too
7 far north on the map so perhaps you can take the route from Bratunac,
8 please, firstly of the mechanised unit, and then secondly of the infantry
9 unit, and perhaps you could be -- mark those in two different colours. So
10 firstly could you mark on the map the route that was taken by the
11 mechanised unit?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can even zoom in. It would allow him to
13 do that better.
14 MR. HAYNES: By all means, let's have a look. Can we zoom in one
15 more time and see whether we can keep all of the relevant portions on the
16 map? Now, can we go up a little bit? Yes. That might just do. Thank
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Armoured mechanised company,
19 Bratunac, Bjelovac, Sase, Pribicevac.
20 Q. And before you move on to the infantry brigade, did the armoured
21 mechanised units reach Pribicevac on the first day of march or did it take
22 more than one day to get there?
23 A. It arrived the same day, in the afternoon.
24 Q. Thank you very much. Now, perhaps in blue you could mark the
25 movement of the infantry unit.
1 A. [Marks] We need to move the map to the right so that I can find
2 Skelani. Skelani is not visible in this section.
3 Q. Well, what we are going to have to do then is you're going to have
4 to erase all the marks you've made and then we are going to have to move
5 the map because we can't move it once you've marked it.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: What I suggest something. We can ignore this map
7 completely, bring up again -- forget about this. Bring up the same map
8 once more, with -- bring up the same mark, same zoom, zooming level, but
9 move it a little bit to the right. And then he can repeat the markings.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can zoom out and I will mark.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You have to go up a little bit.
12 MR. HAYNES: Just a little up. Perfect.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I draw that?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, please, thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
16 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.
17 Q. That's very well drawn if I may say so. Would you put next to the
18 red line, AU or AMU, armoured mechanised unit?
19 A. [Marks] I need red.
20 Q. And next to the blue line, can you put IU for infantry unit?
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And would you at the finishing positions of those marches just
23 perhaps put an X or a dot? One in red, one in blue, preferably?
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. And those Xs represent the positions that each of
1 those units had reached by, as it were, the end of the march on the 4th of
2 July; is that right?
3 A. This red line depicts the movement of the armoured mechanised
4 company on the same day and the blue line shows the total route covered by
5 the infantry component that started on the 4th and arrived at the
6 destination on the 5th. It spent the night in the area of Jezero, that I
7 can mark.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 A. But I don't quite see --
10 Q. Well, if it's not on the map, mark the position to the best of
11 your recollection where it would be on the map, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Have you marked it, Mr. Dragutinovic?
14 A. Yes. I did.
15 Q. Oh, it's in the bottom right-hand corner, yes, thank you. And
16 would you just put next to that X, 4/7 to indicate the 4th of July, the
17 point at which the infantry unit stopped its march for the night?
18 A. [Marks] Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, which of those units were you with?
20 A. The armoured mechanised company.
21 Q. And which of those units was the commander with, Mr. Pandurevic?
22 A. Commander Pandurevic was with the other element, the infantry
23 element that was moving along the Bratunac-Skelani-Zeleni Jadar route.
24 Q. During the days between the 4th and the 10th of July, did the
25 armoured mechanised unit move from the position where you've marked the X?
1 A. Yes. Depending on the combat activities.
2 Q. Was that a forward movement or movement to support combat
3 activities and returning to Pribicevac which was a forward command post,
4 as I understand it?
5 A. Yes. Movement forwards, in order to provide support to the units
6 that were engaged in combat at that time.
7 Q. And what direction did the infantry unit move after the 4th of
9 A. After the 4th of July, it moved towards the lake, Zeleni Jadar,
10 and there it stayed until the 6th, the morning of the 6th.
11 Q. And after the morning of the 6th, was it involved in combat
12 activities with the forces of the 28th Division in the region of
13 Zeleni Jadar?
14 A. Yes. As early as on the 6th of July, in the morning, combat
15 started, units joined the fight, and it lasted until the early evening.
16 Q. Can you describe for us, please, the strength of the resistance of
17 the forces of the 28th Division throughout the 6th, 7th and 8th of July?
18 A. After the units joined the fight in the morning of the 6th, and
19 after being engaged in combat until the evening, our forces did not carry
20 out their task. They were unable to push back the units of the
21 28th Division along this axis that was assigned to us, so we ceased our
22 attacks sometime in the evening.
23 Q. And where did the infantry unit and in particular
24 Commander Pandurevic spend the night of the 6th of July?
25 A. In the sector of our command post, which was located at the Javor
1 elevation. I can't find it probably because this is a smaller scale map
2 but it should be somewhere here, between those two crosses that I marked
3 here, that was on the 6th. This is where we established our command.
4 Q. Now, were there combat activities on the 7th and could you briefly
5 describe them to us?
6 A. After the failure to carry out the task on the 6th, the commander
7 brought together the commands of the combat groups 1 and 2 and decided to
8 group them and to take another axis, Javor-Biljeg. And the start of the
9 attack was scheduled for the morning of the 7th. But it was foggy. The
10 weather was bad. It was raining. So we stopped our attack along this
11 axis that I just mentioned.
12 Q. And again, on the 7th of July, where did Commander Pandurevic
13 spend the night?
14 A. In the sector where the Javor elevation was, in the immediate
15 vicinity of the units that were getting ready for the combat action. That
16 would be Combat Group 1.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Tactical Group 1.
19 MR. HAYNES:
20 Q. Could we briefly move to the 8th of July and could you describe
21 for us then the combat activities of Tactical Group 1?
22 A. When the fog dispersed and when the weather improved, that was in
23 the afternoon, the units headed along the axis that was assigned to them,
24 and after about an hour or two of fighting, they were able to capture the
25 Biljeg feature and then they continued their attack and captured the
1 heights that we called Tri Sise. That's what we called them. They did
2 not have a name. So this was our immediate task, to do so. And after
3 capturing those features, our next task was to reach the
4 Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road, and our units were to prepare for the next
5 day there.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Is this map sufficiently detailed for you to
7 indicate where the three hills were that you captured on the 8th of July?
8 A. I think the scale is too small. We should zoom in and then I
9 would be able to see but I can see now that it's impossible to see the
10 features that I need.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We can mark this one and save it, Mr. Haynes, and
12 then zoom in on the area where you wish to direct the witness to. And he
13 can mark that area.
14 MR. HAYNES: Before he does, I wonder if he could just indicate
15 the positions for the 6th of July and the 7th of July where, to his
16 knowledge, Commander Pandurevic spent the night.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. By all means.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I mark?
19 MR. HAYNES:
20 Q. Yes, please, Mr. Dragutinovic.
21 A. I will mark it on this map here.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make things clear. What are you going to
23 mark? I want to make sure that you have understood Mr. Haynes.
24 MR. HAYNES:
25 Q. Would you mark firstly a position between the two Xs with 6/7 to
1 indicate the position where Commander Pandurevic spent the night of the
2 6th of July?
3 A. I've already told you that this map is too small, the scale is too
5 Q. Well, you appear to have marked it. And then if it's a position
6 very different, 7/7, the position where approximately he spent the night
7 of the 7th of July.
8 A. Well, it was in the same place, so the 6th to the 7th and the 7th
9 to the 8th, those two nights he spent at the same place.
10 Q. Thank you. That's very helpful. Well, in that case, can you just
11 sign this map in the bottom left-hand corner and date it the 15th of June
12 2007 and then we can call it up again and expand it a bit further?
13 A. [Marks] 15th.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We can save that, and I suggest we bring up
15 the same map again and we zoom, as much as we can, the area south of
16 Srebrenica. I think it can go one further. Yeah. Stop there. Does it
17 help you, Mr. Haynes or not?
18 MR. HAYNES: Well, I'm really interested is whether the witness
19 can identify on there where the three hills are and perhaps he could put
20 3T by the position.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Why 3T and not 3H?
22 MR. HAYNES: Because of the description he gave of them yesterday.
23 But 3H in the interests of political correctness.
24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Dragutinovic, have we zoomed too much or is it
1 okay for you? Yeah, okay. He's identified them.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect. Thank you.
4 MR. HAYNES:
5 Q. Thank you. And --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: While we are here, perhaps he could indicate again
7 on this map if it is possible, the locations where your client supposedly
8 slept on the 6th and on the 7th. It would be more precise than we had it
9 on the previous map.
10 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President, that's very helpful.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. What mark should I put?
12 Or should I just put in the date?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the date 6/7 and 7/7.
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 MR. HAYNES:
17 Q. Now, can we move to the 9th of July and can you describe to us,
18 please, the combat activities of the unit on the 9th of July?
19 A. Well, since the units were able to reach the
20 Srebrenica-Zeleni Jadar road, to the north of those three nameless hills
21 and Biljeg, they continued with their actions in the area of the
22 Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road, heading towards the village of Rajne and
23 they launched an attack on the axis, Tri Sise hills-Zivkovo Brdo -- hill.
24 Q. And on the 9th of July was there still strong resistance from the
25 forces of the 28th Division?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And where on the 8th of July, again if it can be marked on the
3 map, did the units and Commander Pandurevic spent the night?
4 A. I can mark it here. Well, the 9th, the 8th, the 9th -- between
5 the 9th and the 10th?
6 Q. Well, if you can do between the 8th and the 9th and the 9th and
7 the 10th, that would be very helpful.
8 A. [Marks] The night between the 8th and the 9th, in the same sector
9 where he had spent nights before. That was in the Javor sector. And then
10 we moved to the other side and we spent the night between the 9th and the
11 10th on the slopes to the north of the Three Teats and Biljeg hills.
12 Q. I don't want to be difficult but so that your markings are
13 consistent would you just change those two so they read 8/7 and 9/7 so
14 that we have the date of the night? Can't he rub it out?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course he can.
16 MR. HAYNES:
17 Q. Can you just rub out -- thank you.
18 A. [Marks] This should be erased too. This should be erased. Now
19 you erased everything. Can I have the pen, please? [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic. Now can we move on, please to the
21 combat activities of the 10th of July? Can you describe those to us
23 A. On the 9th, the units had already reached the Zivkovo Brdo-Rajne
24 village line, and they stayed there at the positions that they had taken,
25 but Combat Group 1, that consisted of a detachment, went back from
1 Zivkovo Brdo to Zeleni Jadar to get some rest and Zivkovo Brdo was manned
2 by a part of the Skelani Battalion. They manned the positions there. It
3 was not a part of our tactical group. Combat Group 2, which was part of
4 our unit, remained in the village of Rajne and to the right, in the area
5 of the Cicevac stream.
6 Q. And on the 10th?
7 A. In the early morning hours of the 10th, the forces of the
8 28th Division launched an attack against the Combat Group 2 in the Rajne
9 village sector, pushing it back towards the Three Teats and Biljeg hills
10 and at the same time, in engaging elements of the Skelani Battalion, they
11 pushed back the elements of that battalion and managed to capture the
12 Zivkovo Brdo feature.
13 Q. And what happened after that?
14 A. In the afternoon, once we were able to reorganise our units, we
15 launched a counterattack by introducing Combat Group 1, the
16 Podrinje Detachment, along the Zeleni Jadar-Zivkovo Brdo axis, the
17 Podrinje Detachment was able to capture Zivkovo Brdo again, and moved
18 forwards to the village of Pusmulic and Rajne. While Combat Group 2,
19 again in the area of the Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road, was able to
20 recapture the positions that had been lost and was able to reach the Bojna
21 village, the line there. This village is not marked here but it is closer
22 to Srebrenica, maybe a kilometre or two closer to Srebrenica than Rajne.
23 Q. I think if we look at the road leading out of Srebrenica to the
24 south towards Rajne and Pusmulici, we can see written alongside it the
25 word Bojna, can't we?
1 A. I can see Rajne here and Bojna is a little bit lower, but it's
2 here where there are those hair-pin bends, and a part of this village is
3 quite high, closer to Rajne. So if I were to mark it on the map, you
4 would be able to see where -- how far we actually got.
5 Q. Yes, please, if you would do that and then you could mark that
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Thank you. Now, by that stage in the combat activities was there
9 any substantial or indeed any resistance from the 28th Division forces any
11 A. Well, the forces of the 28th Division did put up a very strong
12 resistance in this fighting, and you can see from what I just told you
13 that we suffered some casualties, but later on, when we were able to
14 consolidate our ranks, and when we continued fighting, we were able to
15 push them back towards Srebrenica again.
16 Q. And did you spend the night in the position near Bojna? Or,
17 rather, did the unit and Commander Pandurevic --
18 A. We spent the night -- we spent a night in the village of Bojna, in
19 the location that I marked, and the units were to the left and to the
20 right of the Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica road.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, on the 10th of July, you described to us the
22 other day a briefing at Bojna which was conducted by General Krstic. Do
23 you recall that?
24 A. Yes. I do. Mr. Krstic, General Krstic, arrived to the positions
25 that we were able to reach, and together with the commanders of
1 Tactical Groups 1 and 2, Tactical Group 2 cooperated with us in this
2 action, he held a briefing in order to hear reports about the tasks that
3 were supposed to have been carried out that day, to hear to what extent
4 they had been carried out and to discuss further tasks.
5 Q. And at that briefing, did he order the deployment of an additional
6 particular unit called the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
7 A. I think that the 10th Detachment was envisaged to take part in
8 combat the next day.
9 Q. Thank you. I want to just go back a little bit and ask you a
10 couple of general questions about combat with the forces of the
11 28th Division. In the positions around the three hills and Biljeg, were
12 there also -- were there also DutchBat OP positions?
13 A. On Biljeg Hill, which is not here on this map, the Dutch Battalion
14 did have its positions. It had its positions that were set up as quarters
15 and for combat and for observation.
16 Q. And how close to the Dutch forces did the forces of the
17 28th Division make their positions?
18 A. They were so close that we had the impression that they were
19 actually engaging us from the positions of the Dutch Battalion.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Did you fire on any Dutch positions in the
21 course of the combat activities of Krivaja 95?
22 A. Fire was never opened at the Dutch Battalion, but in light of the
23 fact that the units of the 28th Division were positioned so close to the
24 Dutch Battalion, they may have gotten the impression that fire was opened
25 at them but no shell, no round, caused any damage to the structures of the
1 Dutch Battalion.
2 Q. Did you encounter any Dutch soldiers during the course of combat
3 activities you were involved in?
4 A. After taking the positions of the 28th Division in the sector of
5 Biljeg and Three Teats, the soldiers who were the first to reach the
6 defence lines of the 28th Division established a contact with the soldiers
7 of the Dutch Battalion. We had a soldier who was able to talk to the
8 Dutch in German.
9 Q. And what were your orders? What were your actions towards these
10 Dutch soldiers that you came into contact with?
11 A. Well, all the contacts were very correct, and a proposal was made
12 to them to withdraw with their unit along the Zeleni Jadar-Pribicevac
13 axis, and we told them that we would make it possible for them to go back
14 via Pribicevac and Sase to their base in Potocari.
15 Q. Thank you. One other thing: What orders did you receive in
16 relation to destroying any property or setting fire to things and the
18 A. We were given strict orders that no buildings were to be destroyed
19 or set on fire, no physical damage was to be caused to any buildings in
20 the Srebrenica area.
21 Q. And who were those orders from?
22 A. From General Krstic and then Commander Pandurevic relayed them to
23 our unit.
24 Q. Thank you very much. Can we now come to the 11th of July and can
25 you describe what happened then?
1 A. On the 11th, pursuant to orders from the previous day, tasks were
2 given to move towards the town of Srebrenica itself. And General Krstic
3 himself was present.
4 Q. Did you enter the town?
5 A. Tactical Group 1, including the Zvornik Brigade component, was on
6 the Bojna-Srebrenica route, and after the first fighting started, I stayed
7 in the area of Bojna due to NATO air strikes, and after minor injury and
8 shell shock, I was sent back to Zeleni Jadar.
9 Q. Are you aware how the forces of Tactical Group 1 were deployed on
10 the 11th of July?
11 A. I didn't understand the question. You mean during the attack or
12 after we entered Srebrenica?
13 Q. I'm really interested in after you entered Srebrenica.
14 A. After accomplishing its mission, and entering Srebrenica, the
15 command of the Tactical Group 1 was based in the police station, whereas
16 the other units were quartered in Gostilj village and surrounding hills in
17 order to secure the units that remained in the town itself.
18 Q. It's correct, isn't it, that no personnel from Tactical Group 1
19 went towards Potocari on the 11th of July or any date thereafter?
20 A. Our outmost point towards Bratunac and Potocari was the Gostilj
21 neighbourhood. It is on the outskirts of Srebrenica looking towards
22 Bratunac, near the football pitch.
23 Q. And where did Commander Pandurevic spend the night of the 11th of
25 A. To the best of my knowledge, Commander Pandurevic spent the night
1 at the police station.
2 Q. Just one last thing about the operation Krivaja 95. Was any fire
3 from artillery that you were responsible for directed at the town of
4 Srebrenica itself?
5 A. The town itself was not shelled by artillery, and you can see --
6 you could see when entering the town that there was no damage on any
7 buildings from artillery shell.
8 Q. Thank you very much. Would you now just initial the map that's in
9 front of you and put the date on it? You got the date wrong the last
10 time. It's the 15th of June today, which is 15/06. But we won't worry
11 about that.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Can the witness -- yes, he's doing it.
14 A. [Marks]
15 MR. HAYNES: Now, can that be saved and preserved, but then can we
16 call up the same exhibit for a third time? No. Can we call up 7D624 this
17 time, please? I think that's ideal. We can just see Zepa at the bottom
18 of the screen, yes.
19 Q. Now, what I want you to do with this map, Mr. Dragutinovic, if you
20 can be provided with a pen, is to show the movement of the unit on the
21 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th of July, in the same way. So perhaps you can
22 start by showing the movement of the unit from Srebrenica to the position
23 where it spent the night of the 12th of July.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. And would you put 12/7 by Viogor? Thank you. That's
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. We have the 12th and the 14th. Can you mark, please, the 13th for
4 us as well?
5 A. We spent the 13th travelling non-stop, no stops for overnight
6 rest. That was the night of the 13th. We didn't stop. This is where we
7 spent the night on the 12th and on the 13th we started in the direction I
8 marked and we arrived at 0200 hours on the 13th of July. Maybe I can
9 write 13th in the area of Viogor.
10 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, if you would do that.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Now --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Haynes, sorry to interrupt you but
14 we need to have the break now. We will reconvene in 25 minutes. We save
15 this for the time being. Could you sign it, please, Mr. Dragutinovic, and
16 put the date, today's date, 15th? In the meantime, please, can you have
17 consultations amongst yourselves and also with the Prosecution to give us
18 an indication where we stand? We'll reconvene in 25 minutes' time. Thank
20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
21 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes? Before -- have you discussed
24 amongst yourselves --
25 MR. HAYNES: We have. It might be best, I think, if the witness
1 just slipped off his headphones for this.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Dragutinovic, do you understand
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you don't. So can I ask you to remove your
6 headphones for a short while, please? Yes, Mr. Haynes?
7 MR. HAYNES: We have discussed matters. I'll say at the outset I
8 can't give the Trial Chamber too much comfort. We are all going to use
9 our best endeavours to be as economic in our cross-examinations and
10 re-examinations as we can, but it appeared to us that in any event, even
11 if I sat down now, there is enough cross-examination and re-examination of
12 this witness to take him into next week because there are substantial
13 cross-examinations by at least two or three of the other teams and a
14 substantial redirect. I'm going to do my best to get through the material
15 I've got to deal with but there are others who have placed many, many
16 documents into e-court to use with this witness.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Who are the others?
18 MR. HAYNES: I think Madam Fauveau will cross-examine him for a
19 considerable length of time. He is, of course, an officer within the
20 Zvornik Brigade so he's of interest to the Nikolic team. The Beara team
21 have asked for 45 minutes. And others have questions for him. I don't
22 want to get into an argument about this. The witness, for my purposes, is
23 absolutely unique and out of 187 witnesses he's the only one who was with
24 my client from the 4th to the 15th of July, and I hope the Court would be
25 the first to acknowledge that I'm not somebody who has abused the
1 privilege of cross-examination in this Court. I didn't cross-examine any
2 intercept operators, barely a survivor, and hardly any of the DutchBat
3 officers but this witness is absolutely central to my client's case.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Our intervention was not
5 meant to engage into any argument with any of you.
6 MR. HAYNES: I'm sorry, I didn't really mean to but I thought for
7 the saving of time now, I thought I would state in bullet points my
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Madam Fauveau, how long do you
10 expect your cross-examination to last?
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I need an hour and 45
13 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Meek? You require 45 minutes as well?
14 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, we had indicated that. At this point I
15 may not have any questions depending on what the rest of the testimony is.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And -- thank you, Mr. Meek. And what
17 sort of redirect time constraints are we talking about?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. It is at this point, I
19 don't see it being any more than about a half an hour, so it's not quite
20 that substantial. But that, of course, depends upon the nature of the
21 upcoming cross-examinations.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes -- you want to cross-examine him,
23 Ms. Nikolic?
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We had announced
25 one hour, but I think it's possible to reduce that to 45 minutes depending
1 on the course of further cross-examination by Mr. Haynes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Haynes, how much more time do
3 you think you require?
4 MR. HAYNES: It should go a little more quickly now. Once I've
5 asked the witness to mark a couple more things on this map, we are done
6 with maps which are a lengthy and difficult process. There are a few
7 documents I want to show him but I do have to take him through the
8 remainder of the month of July up to the 23rd, and then I have to deal
9 with the -- a portion of August and September. So I will do well to
10 finish by the end of this session, I'd have thought.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. While incidentally the witness is not
12 following the proceedings, in relation to the joinder motion in the
13 Popovic case, joinder motion in the Tolimir case will be dealt with
14 separately by Judge Prost. As far as the request for suspension of time
15 limits for filing of response is concerned, for the time being, until
16 further -- until you hear further from us, all time limits for filing of
17 responses are suspended. Later on, we will have further communications
18 for you.
19 Let me now have some consultations with my colleagues, please.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes, I do not mean to say to you to reduce
22 the time for cross-examination right now but I had the impression that
23 much of what you adduced from the -- during the course of
24 cross-examination could have been stipulated by the Prosecution. So I
25 would appreciate if you would pursue that path in the future.
1 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. That's very helpful. It's certainly not
2 something we are blind to, and Mr. McCloskey and I have good relations and
3 are in good contact.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you may now proceed, Mr. Haynes.
5 MR. HAYNES:
6 Q. Thank you. We are going to have to go back to this map just
7 briefly, Mr. Dragutinovic. Can it be blown up to the same proportion that
8 is it was previously and can we see the same area?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, the witness is not receiving interpretation.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We can put the question straight to Mr. Haynes. Do
12 you wish to have brought up again the one that he has marked?
13 MR. HAYNES: Yes, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Which he can put further marks upon?
15 MR. HAYNES: If that is possible I would be very grateful.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it would be better for everyone.
17 Mr. Dragutinovic, is the interpretation now reaching you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
20 MR. HAYNES:
21 Q. Now, I would just like you, if you can be provided with another
22 pen, it can be in the same colour or a different one, it doesn't matter,
23 just to mark a few more points for me. You told Mr. Vanderpuye about a
24 stop during the night of the 13th and 14th when you were on the move, for
25 fuel in Vlasenica. So would you put a circle around Vlasenica and write
1 the word "fuel" above it or F?
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And would you also put a circle around Krivace and write above
4 that IKM?
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And if you can see it, would you put a circle around Brloznik?
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And would you indicate -- that was the furthest forward position
9 that the forces made towards Zepa. You can simply say that if you agree
10 with it.
11 A. No. That is not the furthest forward position. The units had
12 reached the line between Brloznik village and Purtic village.
13 Q. In that case, erase that circle and put a mark where that position
14 was and perhaps write above that, TG.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Now I think we are now finished with that, so it can be saved and
17 preserved because it already has your signature and the date upon it.
18 Now, I want to ask you about the 13th of July. By the 13th of
19 July, would you agree that the forces were tired, hungry and dirty?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that many of the men who had been part of this operation by
22 then for nine days wanted to go home?
23 A. You could say that only about Combat Group 2.
24 Q. Was it the view of the commander, Pandurevic, that a replacement
25 force ought to be used to carry out the operation towards Zepa?
1 A. Well, I can't really remember, but I know that we were working to
2 prepare this Combat Group 2 for the reasons I've already described so that
3 it can continue combat activities, and there was no indication they would
4 go back, although some individual requests and demands were made to that
6 Q. You told us the other day that General Krstic mentioned to you on
7 the 12th of July the possibility that General Mladic would address the
8 troops on the following day, the 13th. Did you understand that the
9 purpose of General Mladic addressing the troops was to boost their morale?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And in any event, General Krstic was aware of the possibility that
12 General Mladic would address the troops on the 12th, that's correct, isn't
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did you understand that the possibility of General Mladic
16 addressing the troops was something that had been discussed at the meeting
17 in Bratunac the previous evening, the 11th?
18 A. I didn't know what had transpired before, but I could draw
19 inferences from what happened on the 13th.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, you've described in some detail the protests of
21 Colonel Pandurevic to the orders of General Mladic on the 13th of July.
22 Did his plea not also include a plea on behalf of his tired troops?
23 A. To some extent, yes. But the way I understood it, the commander
24 had a better idea of what the situation was really like than many others
1 Q. Well, you've described to us in some detail the response of
2 General Mladic to Colonel Pandurevic's protests. I mean, I assume it's
3 fair to say that sitting here today, you don't remember the precise
4 details of that exchange; is that right?
5 A. I don't recall all the details, but I remember the gist of it.
6 Q. And the gist of it was this, wasn't it, that General Mladic was
7 saying to Colonel Pandurevic, "Obey your orders to advance on Zepa and
8 mind your own business in relation to the 28th Division"?
9 A. He said that Commander Pandurevic, in fact he said to
10 Commander Pandurevic, "Did you get your assignments?"
11 Commander Pandurevic answered yes. And then he said, "Leave the problem
12 of the 28th Division to others. The 28th Division will not cross the
13 Konjevic Polje-Kasaba-Milici road. Other forces will take care of that
14 and prevent them."
15 Q. So in effect he was saying, on the 13th of July, that the defeat
16 or capture of the 28th Division was no responsibility of the command of
17 the Zvornik Brigade, was it?
18 A. He didn't mention the Zvornik Brigade, only the units that were
19 engaged in their missions and were to move towards Zepa. As for the
20 28th Division, other forces were supposed to take care of that but I
21 couldn't know which other forces.
22 Q. Thank you. I want to move on to another topic now. Did you know
23 a man in the Zvornik Brigade called Dragan Stevic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And would you agree that throughout this period certainly, he was
1 Vinko Pandurevic's driver?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that throughout the period you have
4 described and marked on this map, you were travelling in the same vehicle
5 as Vinko Pandurevic?
6 A. Yes. For the most part. I wasn't with him always but I mostly
7 was with him. There were certain errands I had to take care of.
8 Q. But certainly you were with him on the journey that went through
9 the night of the 13th to 14th of July when you stopped for fuel at
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, the stop for fuel in Vlasenica involved a long convoy of
13 vehicles, didn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you may not recall this but we'll have a look at a couple of
16 documents, but it was a refueling stop that began before midnight on the
17 13th of July and finished in the small hours of the morning on the 14th.
18 That's right, isn't it?
19 A. Yes. Replenishment took a long time because it was a small local
20 petrol station where we refueled the whole base of the VRS.
21 Q. Thank you for that but in any event, I just want you to have a
22 quick look to remind yourself at P177. Can that be placed into e-court,
24 And can we see that that is a fueling document that's initially
25 dated the 13th of July at the top?
1 A. Yes. 13th July 1995. You see it in the left top corner.
2 Q. But in relation to the fueling of the vehicles, as each entry is
3 signed by the driver on the right, it's become the 14th. So the document
4 began to be filled in on the 13th but then proceeded by people dating it
5 the 14th as they filled their vehicles. That's right? And I want you to
6 have a look just quickly at vehicle number 13.
7 A. Yes, and you see the signature of Stevic, Dragan.
8 Q. Thank you very much indeed. 48 litres of fuel, and if we just
9 look --
10 A. Yes. It started on the 13th and it ended after midnight. So he
11 wrote the actual date when he tanked up.
12 Q. Thank you. And after you'd fueled up, you and Vinko Pandurevic
13 and Dragan Stevic got back in that car and drove on towards Pozeplje?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And where precisely did you spend the night that night?
16 A. We were in Rijeka village, between Pozeplje and Han Pijesak.
17 Q. In what sort of building?
18 A. There were no buildings, just an abandoned house. Everybody spent
19 the night the best way they could. Some under tent. Some in their
20 vehicles. I think most people slept in their cars. Many more than in the
22 Q. And you and the commander? Were you together in the same
24 A. Yes, yes. In the house, in the car, or around the car. I had one
25 tent that I stretched between the car and a nearby tree, just in case it
2 Q. I just want to be absolutely clear about this. On the nights of
3 the 12th, 13th and 14th of July, you can confirm that Vinko Pandurevic was
4 with you and the unit on the route that you drew on that map?
5 A. Absolutely, and certainly.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Now, throughout the period of the 4th to the
7 15th of July, consistent with the procedure you described yesterday,
8 Dragan Obrenovic was in command of the Zvornik Brigade, that's correct,
9 isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And in the absence of the commander, he would command, subject to
12 the orders of higher command; that's also correct, isn't it?
13 A. Yes. And he's answerable to the superior command.
14 Q. And I would just like to show you a couple of documents so that we
15 can see that process in action in the relevant period, and can we have
16 placed into e-court now, please, P438? Take a little time to read this,
17 but this, I think you'll agree, is an order from Drina Corps command on
18 the 11th of July to strengthen combat readiness of the units and an order
19 that all forward command posts had to be upgraded on all levels? The
20 document may need to go down a little bit so that the witness can read it
21 and confirm that. It's really the second half of the document.
22 A. Basically I'm familiar with it. Without even reading it, I can
23 see what it's about.
24 Q. And just a second document, P157. You perhaps should clear this
25 up. You do confirm that without even reading it, my summary of the
1 document was accurate, the first document you saw?
2 A. Yes. You said what is written, so I didn't need to read it, but
3 this thing I do have to read.
4 Yes. I read it. This has to do with the task for the
5 Zvornik Brigade.
6 Q. And the date of the order?
7 A. Well, it's difficult to read the date here. I think it's the 12th
8 of July.
9 Q. Thank you. So these were orders, both of them addressed to
10 Zvornik Brigade command in the absence of the commander, Vinko Pandurevic?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Now, during the time you were away in Srebrenica and Zepa, the
13 commander, Vinko Pandurevic, never gave any order to the Zvornik Brigade,
14 did he?
15 A. It is true because the commander, according to the order, was the
16 commander of the tactical group and he was duty-bound to command this unit
17 and only that unit.
18 Q. And more to the point, he wasn't notified of any orders that had
19 been given to the Zvornik Brigade by higher command, was he?
20 A. No, no. We had certain tasks and there was no need for us to be
21 even informed about this.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I object to the question, and frankly to the
24 answer as well, because the basis of knowledge hasn't been established
25 with respect to what information this witness would have had of his
1 commander's orders.
2 MR. HAYNES: Oh, I think it has. I think Mr. Vanderpuye
3 established in his examination-in-chief that this man was with, spoke to
4 and asked about everything that was going through Vinko Pandurevic's
5 mind,, and I will deal with it in that way if Mr. Vanderpuye insists but
6 I'll move on. The question has been answered.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We agree with your submission, Mr. Haynes. Go
9 ahead. Thank you.
10 MR. HAYNES:
11 Q. Now, during the time you were in Srebrenica and Zepa, you didn't
12 have, yourself, any information about the evacuation of prisoners, the
13 transportation of prisoners, or the execution of prisoners, did you?
14 A. No. Yes, what you said is correct. I didn't know anything. I
15 didn't hear about any such things.
16 Q. And just to make sure the foundation is good, you travelled with
17 Vinko Pandurevic in his car, that's correct, isn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You slept with him at night, didn't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You regularly conversed with him about the combat situation and
22 the general situation in the Srebrenica and surrounding areas?
23 A. Yes. And received orders.
24 Q. And to your knowledge, Vinko Pandurevic had no knowledge of the
25 evacuation, transportation or execution of prisoners during the period
1 that you were involved in combat operations with him?
2 A. No. I never had any feeling that the commander knew anything
3 about that.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, in terms of the involvement of Zvornik Brigade
5 personnel in Operation Krivaja 95, it's correct, isn't it, that a number
6 of soldiers were decorated for their bravery in Operation Krivaja 95?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I'd like you to quickly look at 7D440, please. And it's page
9 2, entries 18 to 21. This is the list of people decorated and there
10 appear to have been four from the Zvornik Brigade who were decorated; do
11 you agree with that?
12 A. I know the man listed under number 18. I know the man listed
13 under number 20 personally. I also know the man under number 22. And I
14 could perhaps find other people that I know, if I were to look, to go
15 through this list in detail.
16 Q. It might help you if the list was just moved to the right a bit so
17 you could see the units that these people were part of. It needs to go a
18 bit further than that. And we --
19 A. Yes, yes. From 18 and then onwards, these are all members of the
20 Zvornik Infantry Brigade but if you're asking me if I knew some of these
21 people personally, then, yes, I did but according to this list they belong
22 to the Zvornik Brigade.
23 Q. Thank you. And I wonder if lastly you could just look at the very
24 last page of this document so that that we could see the number of people
25 who were decorated in total. And you can confirm that the number is 60 of
1 which apparently 4 were from the Zvornik Brigade?
2 A. Yes. 60, as listed here.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to move on to your return to Zvornik
4 from Zepa. And just to clear up one thing. After your unit returned from
5 Zepa on the 15th of July, it's correct, isn't it, that no unit or
6 personnel of the Zvornik Brigade returned to the operation towards Zepa
7 before the 31st of July?
8 A. No. The plan was for a part of the Podrinje Detachment to do so
9 on the 23rd but then an order was received later on that they were to go
11 Q. But so that we are clear, that they didn't in fact go until the
12 31st of July?
13 A. In fact, they went on the 31st, and on the 1st they were there,
14 and perhaps for one more day, and not before that.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, you're familiar, I imagine, with the brigade
16 forward command post at Delici.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you're familiar, I imagine, with the fact that from the
19 forward command post, there is a very good view of the positions of the
20 4th, 6th and 7th Battalions and an effective position to command each of
21 those units.
22 A. Yes. And that's why it was chosen, because it was possible to
23 monitor the other battalions from there, the 3rd, the 2nd, the 5th and the
24 1st to a smaller degree, but all the battalions could be observed from
25 there. There was a line of sight to all of them.
1 Q. And also, there was a very good line of sight to the villages of
2 Nezuk, Drugi Dijo [phoen] and the positions of the 2nd Corps of the army
3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. Yes. There was a line of sight to the village of Nezuk. It was
5 just opposite the forward command post, in a northerly direction.
6 Q. Now, although you weren't back in Zvornik until the 15th of July,
7 you have seen, as operations officer, all of the regular and irregular
8 combat reports of July of 1995, that's correct, isn't it?
9 A. After the return, yes.
10 Q. And you are aware from that and from your presence there, from the
11 15th of July onwards, that the Zvornik Brigade, in Baljkovica and
12 Crni Vrh, had strong forces in the 7th and the 4th Battalion; two platoons
13 from the Bircanska Light Infantry Brigade; a platoon of military police; a
14 platoon from the Krajina Corps; a platoon from Vlasenica; a special MUP
15 brigade from Sekovici; Drina Wolves; tank company; and strong artillery
16 support from the Zvornik Brigade?
17 A. Yes. They were all stationed there in the period of the 15th,
18 16th, 17th and 18th. And even before that, some elements had arrived
19 already on the 14th.
20 Q. And those forces, in the positions that they were placed,
21 effectively commanded from the forward command post, would have been quite
22 sufficient to massacre the column of the 28th Division and the civilians
23 coming from the rear, wouldn't they?
24 A. Yes. The commander from his command post was able to exercise
25 command very easily, and this strength of units was quite sufficient to
1 inflict major casualties on the 28th Division, in particular if they had
2 civilians with them.
3 Q. Now, it is correct that the Zvornik Brigade suffered some losses
4 on the 15th and 16th of July?
5 A. Yes. Yes. It did have some losses in those days, and even
6 before, in the period before the Tactical Group 1 had arrived from
7 Srebrenica and Zepa.
8 Q. Would you agree that in the period of the 15th and 16th of July,
9 there were a lot of armed men congregated in a relatively small
10 geographical area?
11 A. The sector of the 4th Battalion in terms of the lay of the land,
12 was in a valley, and all the features that dominated the valley had been
13 taken before or were taken now by the Zvornik Brigade, in particular the
14 7th Battalion Pandurica, the 6th Battalion to the right, Parlog, and then
15 in the depth, from the Zvornik-Caparde road, from the Crni Vrh sector, the
16 units from already advancing towards Cetino Brdo which is a dominant hill.
17 It dominates this entire area.
18 Q. Is it right that some of the losses that were suffered by the
19 brigade in that period could be accounted for by the concentration of
20 armed men in a small area who fell victim to random and even friendly
22 A. This was a really small area, and the possibility for conflicts
23 and even friendly fire, it was quite rife, in fact, in this small area.
24 Q. Now, I assume you have heard of Semso Muminovic?
25 A. Yes, yes, I've heard.
1 Q. And you were aware that your commander was in contact with him
2 from the brigade forward command post during the period, I will suggest,
3 of the 15th and 16th of July?
4 A. Yes. I know, through the commander of the 7th Battalion, because
5 I had direct contacts with him, and the commander of the 7th Battalion was
6 in contact with the commander at the forward command post.
7 Q. Did he let you know the regularity of that contact? Were you
8 aware that there were many, many phone calls between them over a 24-hour
9 period or so?
10 A. From my contacts with the commander of the 7th Battalion, I do
11 know that the contacts were first established on the 15th and that they
12 ended on the 16th, with the final agreement about letting the
13 28th Division and the civilian population that accompanied it through.
14 Q. And did you see the column pass?
15 A. Yes, in part, what could be observed from Pandurica, which was a
16 dominant feature. But I was able to see the size of the column as I
17 passed with the armoured mechanised company going in the direction of
18 Zvornik and Caparde.
19 Q. And could you see that the column contained both armed and unarmed
21 A. From the Pandurica position, it was impossible to ascertain
22 whether people were armed or unarmed. One could only see whether they
23 were soldiers or in civilian clothes.
24 Q. And could you see that some of them were soldiers?
25 A. Yes, yes, for sure.
1 Q. Now, you've told us a little bit the other day about a colonel
2 called Trkulja. Were you aware that he visited the command of the Zvornik
3 Brigade as part of a group of officers?
4 A. I know that he was present only on the basis of the conversation
5 or at least that's what the situation was like at the time, with the
6 logistics detachment soldiers who gave me, relayed to me an order, what I
7 should do as a next task, and intimating that there was a high-ranking
8 officer at the command but he didn't know who he was, so I didn't insist
9 on identifying that man, but I was able to see from the documents that I
10 saw later who that officer was, because in the duty operations officer's
11 notebook, and in the duty operations officer logbook, it is stated quite
12 clearly who the officer was and what time he was there.
13 Q. Thank you. Well, I just want to clarify with you what date that
14 was, and to that end I'm going to show you P378, please. And it's page 89
15 for the witness, page 4 for those of us who read English.
16 A. A soldier or, rather, the platoon leader handed to me the order of
17 the commander, and that was in the afternoon of the 17th.
18 Q. Thank you very much. I've just -- I'm just showing you now a page
19 from the duty operations officer's logbook for the 17th of July, and does
20 that show that at 8.45, that morning, a team of officers headed by
21 Colonel Trkulja stayed in the brigade IKM for insight of the new
22 situation, the same returned at 1500 hours?
23 A. Yes. To analyse the situation in those days and in those
24 operations, it says here 8.45. This is indeed an excerpt from the logbook
25 and it bears the signature of an officer but I can't recognise whose
1 signature it is.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Did you understand that the purpose of the
3 arrival of those officers was to investigate why your commander had
4 allowed the column to pass?
5 A. On the basis of what I learned later, the purpose of their arrival
6 was to check why the commander had, on his own initiative, decided to let
7 the column pass through our ranks, through our combat positions.
8 Q. 1995 wasn't the first time that you heard of Semso Muminovic, was
10 A. I knew Semso Muminovic from before the war.
11 Q. And it wasn't the only time that he and Vinko Pandurevic resolved
12 a conflict situation by cease-fire and allowing men to go free?
13 A. There were instances before. Mr. Pandurevic and Mr. Muminovic had
14 been in contact before regarding some exchanges and so on. I do remember
15 that; I'm quite sure of that. Even before this event on the 15th, 16th
16 and the 17th.
17 Q. And on a similar but different level, in Ustipraca in 1993,
18 Commander Pandurevic had reached an agreement with the opposing Muslim
19 forces to allow substantial number of their soldiers to walk free to the
20 free territory then, hadn't he?
21 A. Yes. It's true. I was there with the commander and the commander
22 was the commander of the tactical group that included units of the
23 Zvornik Brigade and of the Rogatica brigade and the 2nd Romanija Brigade.
24 Q. Thank you. After the passage of the column, it's right that the
25 Zvornik Brigade was tasked to perform a search of the terrain to determine
1 whether there were armed groups left behind and groups that had
2 infiltrated from the 2nd Corps of the Bosnian army, that's right, isn't
4 A. Yes. That's right. Quite a few armed soldiers of the
5 28th Division were left behind and they constantly tried to break through,
6 not only in this segment but in other areas, to get in the rear of our
7 units where conflicts would break out. The command was forced to search
8 the terrain to prevent any attacks by those straggling groups on our units
9 at the defence line.
10 Q. And that search of the terrain in the days following the 17th of
11 July resulted in the capture of a large number of enemy soldiers, didn't
13 A. There were prisoners, not a large number, but I do have an
14 approximate figure.
15 Q. Those prisoners were all detained in the military prison at the
16 barracks at Standard in Karakaj, weren't they?
17 A. Yes. On the orders of the commander, all the soldiers of the
18 28th Division who surrendered were handed over to military police squads
19 who took them to the barracks where they were placed in detention until
20 they could be transported to the collection centre for the prisoners at
22 Q. And the prisoners at the barracks were mixed, weren't they, with
23 prisoners of the Zvornik Brigade who were being held there for military
25 A. Well, we really couldn't keep them apart, but there were no major
1 problems as a result of that.
2 Q. And Commander Pandurevic asked superior command to transport these
3 prisoners so that the exchange process could be begun with them?
4 A. Well, I didn't really understand your question, but I do get the
5 gist. The procedure for the capture of the enemy troops by the
6 Zvornik Brigade was well known. The prisoners were to be taken to the
7 barracks, there to be placed in detention, and the next day or the day
8 after that, at the latest, they were to be taken to Batkovic. As for the
9 exchange, the Zvornik Brigade did not have the capability to carry out
10 such exchanges on its own. There was a commission that was in charge of
11 exchanging the enemy soldiers for our soldiers who had been captured by
12 the other side. But I do know about this case that you, I think, are
13 referring to. But if you get more specific, I will be able to tell you
14 what I know.
15 Q. Yes. It would be far easier if I just showed you the document I
16 had in mind. It's P340, please. Can that be placed into e-court?
17 Is that a document in your handwriting?
18 A. Yes. That's my document and my handwriting. In fact, it's the
19 commander's document but written by me.
20 Q. Thank you for the correction. I think we need to go down the
21 document so that you can identify the section of the document that deals
22 with the question of exchange of prisoners.
23 A. If I remember well, it's like this: During these combat
24 operations in the area of Baljkovica, Memici, some of our soldiers went
25 missing, some were captured. From the communications between the enemy
1 and our command, through Muminovic and Pandurevic, there were some
2 indications that they were in favour of direct exchange for some of their
3 soldiers who had been captured and who they knew to be still on our side.
4 As for our soldiers who had been captured and were on the other side,
5 their families found out about it somehow and pressured us a great deal to
6 accept the exchange.
7 However, we had no authorisation to do that. Therefore, we asked
8 the corps command to hand down some instructions or to send a commission
9 for exchange if they thought that was the best thing to do. Otherwise, we
10 needed them to tell us what to do with the prisoners, to wait for the
11 commission or to send them on to Batkovici.
12 Q. Does that explain why at paragraph 3 of this interim combat report
13 the commander is requesting that corps command and -- requests that corps
14 command ask the exchange commission to start work as soon as possible?
15 A. Yes, yes. Precisely. The commander asked for instructions so
16 that we wouldn't have any more problems. And the commission was needed to
17 start working immediately.
18 Q. Now, we've gone a little forward in time. I want now to go back
19 to the 18th of July, if I can. And I'd like for P334 to be placed into
21 This is another interim combat report of the 18th of July, and do
22 you recall whether or not this is another report that was dictated to you
23 by the commander, Vinko Pandurevic?
24 A. Yes. By that time, I had already returned to the command sometime
25 in the afternoon, and I'm familiar with this document.
1 Q. I'd like it, please, if the document could go to the very bottom
2 to see if you can clear something up for us.
3 A. Which paragraph?
4 Q. It needs to go right to the bottom, to the commander's signature.
5 It will be another page. And if we could zoom in on the signature box?
6 Now --
7 A. Yes. That's the commander's signature.
8 Q. Thank you. Now on the 18th of July, what time was it that you
9 went to have this document dictated to you by the commander?
10 A. In the afternoon, but I couldn't tell you the hour.
11 Q. Well, in the English translation, this document is timed 1317.
12 That's 1.00 in the afternoon. Is that in your view --
13 A. No. It must have been later.
14 Q. I mean, it could be an 8. Is it more likely that this document
15 was timed 1817? In other words, just after quarter past 6.00 in the
17 A. It's certainly not 13. But later.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, is this a document you recall being dictated to
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you recall the mood of the commander at the time he
22 dictated this document to you?
23 A. All these events, in view of the fact that the commander had taken
24 many responsibilities upon himself and made his own decisions, he was
25 rather angry with the superior command, that is, with the Drina Corps
2 Q. This document, particularly if we can go back to the first page
3 and look at paragraph 4, does not contain language that -- the like of
4 which we generally find in combat reports from the Zvornik Brigade, does
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And to put it into its context, it was written a day after
8 Colonel Pandurevic had been visited by the three colonels from the
9 Main Staff; you recall that?
10 A. This was on the 18th, from what I know, and they came before.
11 Q. I don't want to be difficult but it's probably my fault. We've
12 flicked about this document. I just wonder whether it could be taken down
13 so that the witness can see the whole document, to understand my next
14 questions. Can we go to paragraph 4? The next page, please. From the
15 top, please. Yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: Further down.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I see this paragraph.
18 MR. HAYNES:
19 Q. Would you agree that the commander took the opportunity in this
20 document to include every piece of information at his disposal about
21 brigade losses from March of 1995 right up to the day of writing that
23 A. In this passage that I see on the screen, I don't see that. I see
24 paragraph 4, though.
25 Q. I think it needs to go further up. No, the other way. Maybe back
1 a page.
2 A. I think this document has more than two pages.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. [No interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you. When that document has been taken down a little bit so
6 you can see the three sections of losses that it contains, I'll put the
7 question again. Can it go down a little further?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. And a bit more. Can we see the last section, please?
10 Now, I'll put the question to you again. In this report,
11 Commander Pandurevic took the opportunity, didn't he, to convey to corps
12 command every piece of information he had about brigade losses pretty much
13 in the whole of 1995 but certainly most recently?
14 A. Yes. This is from the 27th March, when Zvornik Brigade was
15 involved in intensive fighting quite apart from Krivaja 95, and sustained
16 considerable losses. The point of all this is to inform the corps command
17 of the problems that the Zvornik Brigade was facing, and all the tasks
18 that we received from the superior command outside the area of defence of
19 the Zvornik Brigade. We were trying to make a point that it was very
20 questionable whether we would be able to accomplish all these tasks.
21 Q. Thank you. And in order to be persuasive when he was dictating
22 these figures to you, he was trying to make the situation look as bad as
23 possible, wasn't he?
24 A. Well, it couldn't have been worse. These figures are something
25 that I'm aware of.
1 Q. And did you, at the time that you were listening to him telling
2 you what to write, understand that he thought he was under some suspicion
3 from superior command because of his actions on the 16th and 17th in
4 letting the column go?
5 A. At any rate, Commander Pandurevic was then under fire from the
6 superior command because he had on his own initiative taken the decision
7 to let the column pass through their positions. I know that for sure.
8 Q. Now, before we leave this document, I just want to deal with a
9 separate point with you, and can we go, please, now, to the first
10 paragraph of the document?
11 There is a description there, isn't there, of the way in which or
12 the determination with which some members of the 28th Division fought even
13 after capture?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. A document written on the 18th of July; did you ever receive on
16 the 18th of July any order from Vinko Pandurevic that captured soldiers
17 were to be shot rather than taken prisoner?
18 A. I arrived at the brigade command sometime in the afternoon on the
19 18th. I know about this document. I also know that the stragglers of the
20 28th Division fought to the last in order to be able to pass through, to
21 break out, and we learned from those we captured that many of them were
22 ready to die and commit suicide before surrendering but I had never heard
23 from the commander that we were not taking any prisoners or that we should
24 kill those who surrender.
25 Q. Leave aside from the commander, did you ever hear of any such
2 A. Never. I never heard any such thing. That's what I'm trying to
3 tell you. From the 18th when I returned to the brigade, I never heard the
4 commander say any such thing. I know only about the order to boost
5 security measures to be applied during capturing and search of terrain,
6 but that does not mean killing prisoners.
7 Q. Thank you very much, indeed. And I'm going to ask you a question
8 you volunteered the answer to a little while ago. About how many
9 prisoners were taken, detained and sent for exchange by the
10 Zvornik Brigade in the period after the 17th of July up to the 22nd?
11 A. According to the records that I had at the time, and the records
12 of the duty operations logbook and the combat reports we sent to the
13 corps, and from my personal knowledge, there were around 80 men taken
15 Q. Thank you. And in your experience generally in the
16 Zvornik Brigade, were prisoners of war treated fairly, properly and in
17 accordance with the Geneva Conventions?
18 A. Those men that were taken prisoner by the Zvornik Brigade were
19 treated precisely like that. I can give you an example that happened in
20 my presence. Soldiers brought 12 troops of the 28th Division who had been
21 captured, they were all in shiny new uniforms, all young, fit. All of
22 them were offered food and water. Some accepted, some refused. Some
23 accepted a smoke. Our soldiers struck up a conversation with them, and to
24 be frank, it all seemed a bit unreal after what had been going on for the
25 past month.
1 Q. Thank you very much. I'm about to move on to --
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes, before you go on, you dealt with
3 extensively with this exhibit but I had the impression that not much was
4 asked about paragraph 4 to the witness. Mr. Dragutinovic, I wonder if you
5 read paragraph 4 in full. I think it's on the second page. If the
6 e-court shows the page 4 -- page 2, para 4.
7 MR. HAYNES: While we are going there can I make a cross-inquiry.
8 I'm a bit disoriented; when are we due another break?
9 JUDGE KWON: Half past.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: In about 20 minutes' time. Unless you require it
12 MR. HAYNES: No, no, no, no. I know we rose a little early.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: But we also understand the stress of
14 cross-examination. We've all been lawyers before.
15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Any time you need a break, Mr. Haynes, just -- that
17 equally applies to you, Witness. Any time you need a break, please let us
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dragutinovic, I'd like to know in particular what
20 the situation was as you understood it, in particular in relation to those
21 3.000 Muslim prisoners.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first heard of 3.000 captured
23 Muslims from the commander, that is from that document that the commander
25 JUDGE KWON: What was your understanding at the time what happened
1 to those prisoners? What did you know and did you know why your commander
2 was upset?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand it that way. I
4 didn't think that the commander was upset. I still believe, and I assert,
5 that he was very angry with the superior command because somebody had
6 decided to bring to the Zvornik municipality 3.000, as it says here,
7 captives, and to allow 7.000, which I read as 7.000 soldiers of the
8 28th Division, simply to find themselves behind the lines of the
9 Zvornik Brigade, behind the back of the Zvornik Brigade. He says it is
10 inconceivable in this text.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I'm referring to those 3.000 Muslim prisoners.
12 Did you or did you not know at the time what happened to those 3.000
13 Muslim prisoners?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that those 3.000 prisoners
15 were put up somewhere. At that time, I wasn't aware that they were there
16 until the moment when this was dictated. It says here they were put up in
17 school-houses, and elsewhere on the territory of the Zvornik municipality.
18 And that's what I believed. Because I had no occasion to see for myself
19 what was going on between the 11th and my return to the brigade command.
20 JUDGE KWON: When did you know at the end of the day those
21 prisoners were executed?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had never personally, from
23 documents or from talking to other people, found out where, how and how
24 many soldiers or civilians who had been captured during all these events
25 from Srebrenica to Zvornik were executed. And there are some reasons that
1 could explain that.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I'll stop here. I'll leave it to the
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes?
5 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Judge Kwon.
6 Q. I was going to move on now to the period in August and September,
7 when you went on a separate operation with your commander,
8 Vinko Pandurevic. You'll remember, I imagine, that at the beginning of
9 August, Drina Corps command ordered the formation of a light infantry
10 brigade called the Drinski Brigade, to carry out operations in the
11 Krajina, in the area of Drvar?
12 A. Yes. I remember that.
13 Q. Just so that we get the dates correct, I'm going to ask that
14 you're briefly shown 7D612. And is that an order of Drina Corps command
15 dated the 3rd of August of 1995, ordering the formation of a light
16 infantry brigade called the Drinski Brigade to be commanded by
17 Colonel Pandurevic?
18 A. Yes. That's the order we received from the superior command.
19 Q. And I'd like you quickly to look at some other documents now.
20 7D252. Again, briefly look at it, a document dated the 6th of August.
21 It's an order on behalf of the Drinski Brigade, and if we go to the
22 bottom, we can see who gave that order. I think we might need a second
24 A. Well, that's already a document that governs the establishment of
25 that brigade, and the commander is designated. Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko
1 Pandurevic is appointed commander. I'm familiar with this document.
2 Q. And this second document I've shown you is a document dated the
3 6th of August showing Vinko Pandurevic already issuing orders as commander
4 of that brigade; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And according to your understanding of the position, from the 6th
7 of August he was commander of the Drinski Brigade and therefore ceased to
8 act as commander of the Zvornik Brigade?
9 A. That's correct. Because by assuming command over that newly
10 formed brigade, the commander no longer commands the Zvornik Brigade.
11 Q. And do you recall that, in fact, you gave the orders to march in
12 relation to that brigade?
13 A. Yes. In that command, I was appointed again operations officer
14 and pursuant to the commander's order, the commander of the brigade, I
15 drafted that order to march, designated the routes and formulated all the
16 other components of such a document.
17 Q. Do you remember, in fact, that the Drinski Brigade marched to
18 Krajina on the 7th of August, the day after this and other orders were
19 given by Vinko Pandurevic?
20 A. Yes, yes. The march started on the 7th.
21 Q. And I'm going to a little more carefully deal with the date of
22 your return. I'd like, please, if you could be shown P378, the bottom of
23 page 121 and the top of page 122.
24 This is going to be a little difficult, Mr. Dragutinovic. You're
25 going to have to read the bottom of one page and then wait for another
1 page to come up. It is the very bottom of the page you're looking at and
2 now can we look at page 122 at the very top? I should say by way of
3 introduction that this is the duty officer's logbook for the 16th of
5 A. Well, right below that, right below this first line, it
6 says, "Today at 11.30, that 2nd Drina Brigade," that's what we call
7 it, "returned to Zvornik headed by Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic,
8 from the area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps." The date is
9 the 16th, 11.30.
10 Q. Thank you very much. This is the duty officer's logbook and as
11 you told us yesterday, this is a document that summarises and puts into
12 some sort of chronology information from the notebook and perhaps other
13 sources; is that right?
14 A. Yes. That's from the notebook of the duty operations officer and
15 then it was copied into the logbook. In fact, this is the logbook.
16 Q. Thank you. And the passage I asked you to read at the bottom of
17 page 121, which appears to have occurred or have been written in any way
18 before the entry about the return of the 2nd Drina Brigade concerns the
19 commander inspecting positions of the 7th Battalion in the village of
20 Memici, do you agree with that?
21 A. In the first part?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the reference to the commander in the first part of the
25 logbook for the 16th of September must therefore refer to
1 Dragan Obrenovic, mustn't it?
2 A. Yes. Dragan Obrenovic was the commander at the time.
3 Q. So that we can draw this together, the 2nd Drina Brigade was in
4 Krajina from the 7th of August until 11.30 in the morning of the 16th of
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. And at the time of its return, the deputy commander, called
8 commander at the time, of the Zvornik Brigade was inspecting positions of
9 the 7th Battalion in Memici?
10 A. Well, yes. Dragan Obrenovic, as the brigade commander in the
11 absence of Commander Pandurevic, performed all the relevant duties. We
12 came back at that time, when Dragan Obrenovic was already at the other end
13 of the brigade's defence area.
14 Q. And just to give this particular passage of evidence a human
15 element, you came back with Vinko Pandurevic, didn't you?
16 A. Yes. I came back, and upon my return, the commander called up the
17 command to meet at the command post of the Zvornik Brigade at Karakaj
18 where we summed up some reports and we gave some tasks to the members of
19 the command so that some of the units that were part of the Drina Brigade
20 would be able to go back to their original units smoothly, without any
22 Q. But when you got back to Standard, there was no question of
23 Dragan Obrenovic being there and briefing Vinko Pandurevic on the
24 situation within the Zvornik Brigade, was there?
25 A. I don't recall that we actually found him there at the barracks.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dragutinovic. And that would be a convenient
2 moment for a break.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. Haynes. We'll have a
4 25-minute break. Thank you.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
8 MR. HAYNES:
9 Q. Now, just before we broke, Mr. Dragutinovic, you were explaining
10 to us both from your own personal recollection and by reference to some of
11 the brigade documents, about your return from the Krajina with
12 Vinko Pandurevic on the 16th of September. I want to try and link that
13 with another important event in this case. And I'd like you to tell us,
14 please, if you recall a man called Radislav Pantic, who was the chief of
15 traffic services within the logistics organ of the Zvornik Brigade. Yes?
16 A. I know who Pantic is and I do know him. He was the chief of the
17 traffic service in the logistics organ of the brigade.
18 Q. And I wonder if we could now put into e-court please P1054.
19 Could the document be brought down a little bit so that we can see
20 the top right-hand corner? No, probably -- I meant brought up, yes. Yes.
21 Now, can you see that on that document, the name Pantic is written
22 in the top right-hand corner?
23 A. Yes, I can see that.
24 Q. And can you see that that document is a document from the
25 Main Staff to the Drina Corps notifying them of an order of the Main Staff
1 for the delivery to the Drina Corps of 5.000 litres of diesel?
2 A. If you could maybe scroll down a little bit?
3 Q. Of course. That will be done for you.
4 A. Yes. Yes, I can see that now.
5 Q. Just one thing about that document: A copy of it appears to have
6 come to the Zvornik Brigade, but for information. What does that mean,
7 when a document is given to the Drina Corps for information?
8 A. I know what it means if Zvornik Brigade received it for
9 information. That means that this fuel belongs to someone and that
10 perhaps it could be stored in a facility somewhere, but that Pantic or the
11 Zvornik Brigade is just provided with this for information. It cannot
12 avail itself of it. It cannot dispose of it.
13 Q. Thank you. And would you just make a mental note of the
14 confidential document number 03/4-2341 of the 14th of September? And then
15 I'm going to ask you to look, please, at P1053. And can you see straight
16 away, if you've remembered it, in the top left-hand -- no, we haven't got
17 the document up yet. Yes, in the top left-hand corner we have the same
18 order number there, 03/4-2341. And again, the document marked Pantic in
19 the top right-hand corner. And this is a telegram dated the 14th of
20 September, again from the -- what's described here as the General Staff to
21 the electronic communications centre -- sorry, addressed to the
22 logistics -- to the 1st Zvornik Brigade for their information.
23 Now, I want now to look, if we can, at P379 which is the duty
24 officer's notebook at page 115, and this is only in your language,
25 Mr. Dragutinovic. There is no English translation so we may have to have
1 your help with it.
2 A. If I am able to read it.
3 Q. Well, I certainly can't so you're better placed than I am.
4 Can the document be brought up so he can see the lower half of the
5 page? And can you see there, there is an asterisk relating to a telegram?
6 A. Yes, I can see that.
7 Q. And again, it contains the same number. Would you mind please
8 just reading out what you can there so that we can have something on the
9 record in English?
10 A. It says, "Telegram, strictly confidential, 03/4-2341, dated the
11 14th of September 1995. And telegram strictly confidential number
12 10/34/2-3-701, dated the 14th of September." It says 9 here but I assume
13 that this refers to the year 1995.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 A. Let me just try and see what it says further on. I don't really
16 see whether it says, "Handed in to Pantic." It says, "To be handed over
17 to Pantic."
18 Q. Thank you very much. And if we could just go to the top of the
19 page, I think we'll see that this is again the 14th of July. Thank you.
20 There, on the top right-hand -- sorry, 14th of September. Thank you.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, while you were in the Krajina with Vinko Pandurevic, which
23 trip you returned from on the 16th of July, were you ever aware of any --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you ever aware of any arrangement between the Main Staff of
1 the army of Republika Srpska and the Drina Corps for the delivery of 500
2 litres of fuel?
3 A. No. Except on the basis of what I've just read now.
4 Q. And again, did you enjoy the same sort of relationship with
5 Commander Pandurevic during the time that you were in the Krajina that you
6 had done when you were on Operation Krivaja 95? In other words, did you
7 stay with him? Did you travel with him? Did you talk to him?
8 A. I was the commander's operations officer, and on both occasions, I
9 was by the commander's side precisely in order to receive orders, to work
10 them out, and to convey them to the units, which means that I was at the
11 commander's side at all times.
12 Q. And did anything that you discussed or anything he said indicate
13 to you that he had any knowledge of an arrangement being made for the
14 delivery of fuel by the Main Staff to the Drina Corps to be stored at the
15 barracks of the Zvornik Brigade during your absence in the Krajina?
16 A. During our stay in Krajina, we had such problems that fuel for the
17 Zvornik Brigade and for Standard was not a topic that we could have
18 discussed even if we had wanted to.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I want to come back, please, to the
20 16th of September and your return to the Zvornik Brigade command. You've
21 told us that on the 16th of September, when Colonel Pandurevic returned,
22 he dealt with substantially the return of the other units to their
23 respective brigades and that so far as you were aware, he had no contact
24 with Dragan Obrenovic that day. I want to have a look now at the
25 following day, the 17th of September, and can we look, please, at P379, at
1 page 122?
2 I'm very sorry, I might have made a mistake here. We have to
3 start on page 121. I'm very sorry to the Court usher, who is doing a
4 great job.
5 Can we try page 122 again? I'm sorry about this, the 65 ter
6 number at the top -- the ERN number at the top should be 6530. Yes. And
7 could you help us, please, by reading the top lines there? Because I
8 think we might need to see a little bit of the previous page.
9 Mr. Dragutinovic, would you help us, please, by just reading out
10 those top lines and seeing if they make any sense?
11 A. As far as I can see it says here, "Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic
12 should maybe upon arrival in Vlasenica report to General Krstic".
13 Q. And then?
14 A. "And in the afternoon, he should not go to Vlasenica." That's
15 what I read but I'm not sure.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, this is the day after the --
17 A. I understand that somebody ordered Commander Pandurevic to go to
18 Vlasenica and then, in the second part, on the orders of General Krstic,
19 he should not go to Vlasenica because probably something or other had been
20 cancelled. So there was no need for him to go.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, the day prior to this, Colonel Pandurevic had
22 returned with the 1st Drina Brigade which had been ordered by the
23 Drina Corps. Now, would it have been protocol for him to report to
24 General Krstic, the commander of the Drina Corps, upon returning with that
1 A. Well, it would be logical, but not on that day. He didn't go on
2 that day. I know that for sure. Not to brief, but to make a report; he
3 could have done that in writing. And let me just add on this note that I
4 drafted the reports on the stay of the Zvornik Brigade in Krajina.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, just beneath that entry is a telephone number,
6 and a further entry. I wonder if you could read that out to us?
7 A. It says here, "589-991." I can't read what it says here in the
8 middle but then it says, "In Celopek." Something like, "I am now in
9 Celopek" or something like that. No, it says, "589-991,
10 lieutenant-colonel in Celopek."
11 Q. Thank you. Now Celopek and the telephone number 589-9991 [sic],
12 does that mean anything to you?
13 A. Should I say? It's a private number of a person where the
14 commander was.
15 Q. Thank you, and just lastly, the next entry says what?
16 A. Below this, "Major in" - I'd say Malesic - "at a briefing." Or
17 something like that.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 A. This probably refers to Major Dragan Obrenovic indicating that he
20 was in Malesic at the briefing, most likely in one of the battalions or
21 something like that.
22 Q. Now, I'll ask you again: Do you have any independent recollection
23 of the events of the 17th of September that might help us supplement what
24 the notebook means?
25 A. What do you mean specifically? The same image or something else?
1 Is there something else that you're referring to?
2 Q. Again, Mr. Dragutinovic, you're quite right to criticise my
3 questions. Can I suggest to you that what the notebook shows us is that
4 on the 17th of September, Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic was at a house in
5 Celopek, that he had --
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. That Major Dragan Obrenovic was in Malesici?
8 A. In Malesic, yes.
9 Q. And that Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic had no obligation, at that
10 stage, to go to Vlasenica?
11 A. Yes. He did not have such an obligation because in the previous
12 entry, it is stated that he didn't need to go to Vlasenica, because a
13 commander would not have gone to Celopek on his own initiative. He would
14 go to carry out his task. So this indicates quite clearly that the
15 commander was -- had taken some kind of a leave of absence. He was
17 Q. Thank you. And there is one further minor point about this. It's
18 unusual, isn't it, that the commander and the Chief of Staff are referred
19 to in the notebook by their military rank? They are referred to here as
20 lieutenant-colonel and major, not as commander or Chief of Staff.
21 A. Well, I have to tell you that every officer made the kind of notes
22 that he found the easiest, the most convenient. These were not
23 professional soldiers, where everything has to be done in accordance with
24 the rules just so.
25 Q. Very well. I'll take that no further. But are you aware that on
1 the 17th of September, Commander Pandurevic was given leave of absence by
2 General Krstic to --
3 A. Yes. He was granted leave of absence because of some health
4 problems that he had.
5 Q. And if we can now look at P379, at page 128, and that's the
6 relevant part that is on the screen now, again, there is a telephone
7 number there, and a reference to a room number, and the name of the
8 commander. Is that right?
9 A. Yes. It's quite obvious that the commander had already left. Let
10 me just explain. The commander had some problems with his back. The year
11 before he had had surgery, back surgery, and he'd already had some
12 problems while we were in Krajina. So this is the telephone number, and I
13 guess the room in the hotel where he was staying.
14 Q. And do you know where that hotel was?
15 A. I think it was in Montenegro somewhere.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, later on in the month of September, were you
17 aware that Dragan Obrenovic was asked to command a unit to go to Krajina?
18 A. Yes. I do know about that.
19 Q. I think originally, the unit was to be led by Colonel Furtula of
20 whom we have heard -- Trkulja of whom we've heard previously but when he
21 was unable to do it for various reasons the Drina Corps asked
22 Dragan Obrenovic to take his place?
23 A. Let me correct you here. If I'm not mistaken I think this was
24 Colonel Furtula.
25 Q. I got it right the first time but then I corrected myself and got
1 it wrong. It was Radomir Furtula, wasn't it?
2 A. Yes, yes, if it's Radomir, then that could be Furtula, and I know
3 him quite well so I couldn't have made a mistake. He was appointed the
4 commander of that unit. First for some reasons he was not, then he was.
5 And then he was actually -- actually Major Obrenovic was invited to
6 receive the task.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, just so that we can ascertain the date or
8 relevant dates, could we look at P158, please? And is this the order
9 appointing Dragan Obrenovic as commander of this unit dated the 26th of
10 September of 1995?
11 A. Yes, precisely. That's the document confirming what I've just
12 said, that Radomir Furtula was the man and then Major Dragan Obrenovic was
13 tasked with setting up the brigade.
14 Q. Thank you. And just to follow this through, throughout the period
15 from the 17th of September to the 26th of September, when this order was
16 made, Dragan Obrenovic was the commander of the Zvornik Brigade; that's
17 correct, isn't it?
18 A. Yes. By virtue of his office, he was the deputy commander of the
19 brigade, and he took over the command of the brigade until the 26th, when
20 the commander returned to the brigade.
21 Q. Well, I'm just going to see if we can clarify that. Can we look,
22 please, at Exhibit 37 -- P379 again, page 140? And can we have a look at
23 the entry at 10.00, 1000 hours? Does that refer to a briefing of the
24 battalion and division commanders?
25 A. Yes. It says here under 1000 hours, yes, precisely.
1 Q. And we can see at the top of this page that this refers to the
2 27th of September. Now, that debriefing would have been, wouldn't it, the
3 debriefing held by the commander on his return to the command on that day?
4 A. The briefing of the battalion and artillery battalion commanders
5 is always held in the presence of the commander. In his absence, it is
6 done in the presence of the Chief of Staff. So this means that the
7 commander was present there because Major Obrenovic had already taken on
8 the tasks to set up this brigade that he was supposed to take to Krajina.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, can we just summarise the movement of the
10 commander that you've taken us through? On the 7th of August he departed
11 for the Krajina, returning on the 16th of September; that's correct, isn't
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On neither the 16th nor the 17th, did he resume command of the
15 brigade, nor did he have any contact with Dragan Obrenovic?
16 A. Well, I don't know if he did or not, but he was given leave of
17 absence starting the very next day, and he left the very next day.
18 Q. And he returned when Dragan Obrenovic went off to command another
19 unit on either the 26th or the 27th of September?
20 A. Yes. On the 26th and on the 27th, the commander was already in
21 the brigade.
22 Q. So to all intents and purposes, the commander of the
23 Zvornik Brigade was Dragan Obrenovic from the 7th of August to the 26th or
24 27th of September?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, were you yourself ever aware of 500 litres of fuel being
2 stored -- sorry, 5.000 litres of fuel being stored at the barracks at
4 A. No. I never heard about such a quantity of fuel being stored in
5 our barracks.
6 Q. Did you ever see such a quantity of fuel --
7 A. I did not see it and I did not have to know.
8 Q. And I just want to show you a few images now, please. Can we see
9 P171 -- sorry, P2103, at page 171?
10 Do you know the dam at Petkovci?
11 A. I know the dam well because my construction company worked there,
12 but if this image depicts the dam, I do not distinguish it.
13 Q. Well, let me put a simple question to you. These images are
14 intended to show that sometime between the 7th of September 1995 and the
15 27th of September 1995, some bodies were dug up at the dam at Petkovci.
16 Were you at that time aware of anything like that going on?
17 A. No. I was never aware of any excavations. I never learned that
18 from any source.
19 Q. And again, a question I've asked you two or three times: So far
20 as you were aware, could Vinko Pandurevic know anything of any such
21 engineering operations?
22 A. In which period?
23 Q. Well, between the 7th and the 27th of September would be pretty
25 A. No. No way. Because we were not at all in the area of defence of
1 the Zvornik Brigade. We were in Krajina. We were engaged in completely
2 different missions. I'm hearing about this for the first time, and the
3 commander couldn't have known either.
4 Q. Just for the sake of completeness, I'd like the witness to see
5 page 220 of the same exhibit. Again, so far as you were aware, did the
6 commander at the time you were in Krajina have any knowledge of
7 excavations going on at the Branjevo state farm?
8 A. No. He had no knowledge at all, if this is an image of Branjevo.
9 Yes, actually I recognise this picture, but only because I am a surveyor
10 by training and I worked there before the war. This is the old farm.
11 Q. And lastly, page 240 of the same exhibit. This is Orahovac. Did
12 you or the commander have any knowledge of excavations going on at
13 Orahovac between the 7th and the 27th of September?
14 A. Well, the same response: No. I can see here that there is the
15 railroad up there in the upper corner, but no, no.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, you've talked in the course of your evidence
17 about two operations that you and the commander took part in in July,
18 August and September of 1995. But it was a common occurrence, wasn't it,
19 for either the commander or the Chief of Staff to go on operations outside
20 the Zvornik area?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when either of them returned, was there any formality to their
23 greeting of one another?
24 A. As far as I can recall, and this is not something that I'm likely
25 to forget because we were all on good, friendly terms, there were no
1 military formal greetings or giving reports. What would usually happen
2 would be we would come across each other and we would then just
3 say, "Hello," if -- provided we survived. So these were just the usual
4 kind of encounters.
5 Q. I mean, to get straight at the point, did you ever see
6 Major Dragan Obrenovic salute Vinko Pandurevic upon his return to the unit
7 and give him a report on the situation there and then?
8 A. Not that I remember.
9 Q. Now, I want to show you a few photographs now, if I may. Can we
10 see 7D581?
11 JUDGE KWON: If you could check the number again?
12 MR. HAYNES: I am doing, Judge Kwon, and I'm assured I'm right but
13 I've been assured I'm right many times and have been wrong. Thank you.
14 Q. You recognise that photograph, do you?
15 A. Our former command.
16 Q. And if we can take a walk through it, if we go to 7D582, no, 7D586
17 first, please. And turn that one round, please. Is that a photograph
18 going through the doors of the command and showing just on the right there
19 the stairway up to the first floor?
20 A. Yes. Yes. We see the front door, the stairway. To the right of
21 the front door there was a small room where an officer -- a soldier, that
22 is, was on duty.
23 Q. And what other personnel would have been present when this
24 building was used as command on the ground floor?
25 A. There were offices to the left, offices of the military police
1 company, and somewhere there my staff office was there, I think if you go
2 straight ahead. To the right there was a room in which we held training
3 sometimes. A medical corps office. And to the left, next to the military
4 police company room, was a passage leading to the canteen.
5 Q. And was this entrance area frequently busy with people coming in
6 and out and occupying nearby offices?
7 A. Usually, yes. I forgot also there was a room where the assistant
8 Chief of Staff for organisation and mobilisation was sitting. So the
9 place was never empty.
10 Q. Can we now go to 7D582? And does that show us the stairway up to
11 the first floor, the first flight, and 7D583 --
12 A. I suppose so. I suppose that is the stairway.
13 Q. And that, the second --
14 A. This is photographed from the upper landing, and the stairway goes
15 on, leading to the floor where the communications company was housed.
16 That is part of it.
17 Q. Now, can we have 7D584, please? Does this show the first floor
18 hallway in which most of the brigade officers had their offices?
19 A. Yes. That's the hallway. And I could tell you which office is
20 which from my recollection.
21 Q. Well, I'm going to try and quicken that up by putting some
22 questions to you and I don't want to you mark the photograph. But the
23 first doorway on the right was the office of the duty operations officer,
24 wasn't it?
25 A. Yes, correct.
1 Q. And then came the offices of Sreten Milosevic. There was a
2 meeting room?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And operational office --
5 A. Yes, the operations room.
6 Q. Then your office?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then the office of Dragan Obrenovic?
9 A. Yes. He was right next door to me.
10 Q. And on the left-hand side, the chief of signals -- no, the chief
11 of engineering, Jokic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Then the chief of signals, Petrovic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then the assistant commander for moral, religious and legal
17 A. Yes, on that side.
18 Q. Then Drago Nikolic' office?
19 A. Yes. He was on that side too.
20 Q. And at the bottom on the left, Vinko Pandurevic?
21 A. Yes. That was the commander's office.
22 Q. A busy corridor?
23 A. There was always someone there, and on the other side was the
24 staff command, some messengers, parts of the security detail, the police
25 section attached to the command, a coffee bar, and that was all.
1 Q. Now, could we have, please, on an entirely unrelated matter put
2 into --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We have only got one more minute left.
4 MR. HAYNES: I have only got one more question.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, please.
6 MR. HAYNES: Could we have P377 put into e-court, please, at
7 page 177?
8 Q. Now, you've told us previously that you were regularly present at
9 brigade morning meetings and debriefings. This is a record of a --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- debriefing on the 23rd of July. Were you present at that
13 A. 23rd July, yes.
14 Q. And was the commander also present?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the Chief of Staff?
17 A. Yes, as usual, everybody was there.
18 Q. And at that meeting, was there any discussion of prisoners of war
19 or detainees?
20 A. If I remember well, the commander demanded that part of the
21 prisoners who were held in our detention be evacuated as soon as possible
22 to Batkovici and he demanded that from the corps command. Why they were
23 kept there, I can't remember. But it wasn't our decision. It was their
25 Q. Thank you. And thank you very much, Mr. Dragutinovic. I
1 apologise to you for having taken so long but I hope you'll understand I
2 did so in the interests of my client.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. I take it that that brings
4 to an end your cross-examination.
5 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Dragutinovic, we will continue on Monday
7 morning, and we will be doing our utmost to try and finish. In the
8 meantime between now and then, same advisory as I had for you yesterday.
9 You're not to communicate with anyone on the subject matter of your
10 testimony. Have a nice weekend, everybody.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. Thank you.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of June,
14 2007, at 9.00 a.m.