1 Thursday, 21 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good afternoon, everybody.

6 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. For the record all the accused

10 are here. I do not notice any absences on the -- amongst the Defence

11 teams. Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Nicholls.

12 Yes. I understand there are some preliminaries? Yes,

13 Mr. McCloskey?

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, good afternoon. Good

15 afternoon, everyone.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: At this time I would like to make a request, Mr.

18 President, that we take the first three weeks of July as a break. I know

19 that you have issued the -- your decision that we put on witnesses up

20 until the end of June and we've all been planning on what to do with July

21 and hoping to -- that there would be some -- a lawyer appointed for or

22 chosen by General Tolimir and that we would have a better idea. There is

23 nothing that's actually clarified itself on this issue and we are having a

24 very difficult time finding adequate witnesses to fill that time that

25 might not affect the concerns that I think Mr. Bourgon mentioned and that

1 I share with him, that I had mentioned, that we would be getting into

2 issues that may relate to Tolimir.

3 I think most of the Defence counsel have felt the same way, that

4 we need some clarity, if possible, on those three weeks. I can bring in

5 some witnesses but it has been difficult and I think if we are also -- I

6 can tell you we are all very tired as well. This has been ten months of a

7 good pace and as you know, a rigorous case and subject matter but we are

8 ready -- we can put on witnesses in July. We are having trouble but I

9 think it would be a good for all if we took this break. I know that there

10 are efforts to resolve the Tolimir issue. I think OLAD is working hard on

11 that so I hope that will happen soon. But that is just the request I

12 wanted to put forward to you and of course answer any questions you have.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Are there any comments from the Defence

14 teams? Mr. Josse?

15 MR. JOSSE: Well, I only rise, Your Honour, because we were the

16 one team who opposed that suggestion originally. On reflection and on

17 balance, we now support what my learned friend says. So I think the

18 Defence are unanimous in this regard. Of course, it's a matter for the

19 Trial Chamber but I think I would just make that clear.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be issuing -- thank you, Mr. Josse. We will

21 be issuing a ruling later on today.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We've taken note of what you said, Mr. McCloskey.

24 We will not of course pronounce ourselves on your request which seems to

25 have the endorsement of all the Defence teams. We'll need to think about

1 it. In the meantime later on today, we will be handing down a ruling or

2 an order asking you to give -- work on some estimates that would be

3 applicable if there is a joinder, and if not. At the same time, I hope

4 you all understand that the question of joinder as such doesn't hinge

5 necessarily only at the moment -- or the timing of the decision on joinder

6 doesn't hinge necessarily or only on assignment of counsel to Mr. Tolimir.

7 There are various legal issues involved, particularly what has

8 happened in the last ten months or 11 months in his absence, including the

9 hearing of evidence and the tendering of documents. So there are problems

10 ahead, and of course we are - like I would assume you all are - fully

11 aware of. We'll think about your request, Mr. McCloskey, and we'll try to

12 come back to you as soon as we can with a view to making it possible for

13 both sides, if we decide to proceed, to be able to know exactly on what

14 terms and for how long and to what extent. So please allow us to ponder

15 on these issues, and hopefully we'll come back to you very soon. Thank

16 you. Are there any further preliminaries? Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

17 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, Mr. President. At this point in

18 time I would like to make an oral application further to information which

19 was provided to us by the Prosecution today. We've received a proofing

20 notes which were drafted by the Prosecution further to their proofing

21 session with Witness 129. Witness 129 is -- will be testifying, not the

22 next witness but the second following witness, and based on the proofing

23 notes that we've received, it appears that there have been some

24 substantial modifications to his -- the information this witness has

25 provided previously to the Prosecution, and this information or the

1 changes, whether new or modified information, goes in the direction of

2 supporting the testimony of the witness who is presently on the stand.

3 And both witnesses are presently in The Hague. The Prosecution has had an

4 opportunity to proof the witness, and the application at this time is to

5 bar any further contact between the Prosecution and the witness. They had

6 the chance to proof him. Now it's better if the witness does not have any

7 contact so that he may testify and not be privy to any further information

8 that this witness presently on the stand might provide to him or not.

9 Of course, on cross-examination, I will raise that issue with the

10 present witness, whether they spoke together, because they are quite

11 close, and this second witness happens to be, as the Chamber will see, the

12 only witness who can corroborate the story put forward by the present

13 witness. Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, this person is one of the two associates

15 that the witness referred to, I take it. What about the second one? Is

16 he also scheduled listed as a witness or not, or isn't he available?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. He is not currently scheduled and I don't

18 know if we have a statement from him off the top of my head.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. What's your comment on

20 Mr. Bourgon's request?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would object. I think this is the subject

22 matter of a previous motion. It seems similar to what they are talking

23 about with Obrenovic so I think some of the law and the facts have been

24 stated there. I don't see any grounds that -- to prevent us from talking

25 to someone unless there is some sort of underlying belief or argument that

1 there is something crooked going on and there is absolutely not. And so I

2 don't, as he has -- as Mr. Bourgon has said, he will be able to

3 cross-examine the witness fully, and I don't see any reason that we

4 wouldn't be speaking to the witness. It would be normal that we would

5 continue to speak.

6 It's Mr. Vanderpuye's witness. I think Mr. Vanderpuye, at this

7 point, is probably finished with most of his proofing so this may not be a

8 big issue but like the Obrenovic issue wasn't, since I never saw

9 Mr. Obrenovic any way but I can find that out, if that would be

10 interesting, maybe we can avoid the whole issue but my guess is

11 Mr. Vanderpuye would have planned to see him today or perhaps tomorrow,

12 but I don't know. I can find that out but I see no grounds for it. I

13 don't see the point.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Zivanovic, because Mr. Bourgon was

15 standing before. Already standing before. Yes go ahead, Mr. Bourgon.

16 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President, just briefly in reply

17 first I would like to confirm that the second associate is a Defence

18 witness and the Prosecution has taken a statement from him. Of course,

19 they won't call him because he's not giving the same information. But we

20 will be calling the other -- this other associate. As for the one that is

21 presently scheduled to testify, the Prosecution has met him, so they've

22 had an opportunity to discuss everything they wanted to, and we are not

23 suggesting any impropriety on the part of the Prosecution, although it is

24 a fact that we are seeing from the proofing notes that we've received that

25 this witness is modifying what he previously said in statements, so

1 whether he was prompted to do so in questions by the Prosecution, whether

2 he was -- simply spoke with this witness or whether it is truthful or

3 refreshed -- new recollection on his behalf, whatever the situation, I

4 think it is in the interests of justice to have a witness that is not

5 influenced in any way before he testifies here a couple of days from now.

6 Thank you, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But you all know -- I mean, and of course, you

8 amongst the -- foremost amongst others because of where you come from,

9 which jurisdiction you come from, that in a system like we have, where you

10 have proofing, that's why we also have a cross-examination system, and

11 that's what it's all about basically. I mean the control is in the

12 cross-examination. Anyway, we've taken note of your submission,

13 Mr. Bourgon. Mr. McCloskey, if you could kindly verify, as you suggested

14 you could do, and then come back to us, that would help us immensely come

15 to a pristine conclusion on this. Thank you.

16 Mr. Zivanovic?

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I just like to add that

18 the information report with the conversation of the Prosecution

19 investigators with the second assistant of this witness was disclosed to

20 us under Rule 68.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one, the one who is witness 129 or the other

22 one that Mr. Bourgon --

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, the other assistant.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So that's it. That's for your

25 information. So I think we can proceed with admitting the witness in the

1 courtroom, unless there are further preliminaries. There seem to be none.

2 Yes, Madam Usher, please.

3 While we are waiting, it occurred to my mind yesterday that you

4 haven't come back to us in a final fashion, manner, on the question of the

5 aerial images. You had told us that there had been some consultations and

6 exchange of correspondence and that you would be coming back to us

7 shortly. Shortly, is of course a relative term in this environment. But

8 if perhaps you could at some point in time come back to us and pinpoint

9 the exact position of where you stand, it would be very helpful.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Acimovic, good afternoon to you and welcome

14 back.

15 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to proceed with your testimony and then

17 we see where we get at the end of today.

18 Mr. Nicholls -- I was going to call you Nikolic.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Once a day is enough. Could we please start in

20 private session. I will try to very quickly wrap up all the parts that

21 need to be there. There is not much more.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session, please.

23 [Private session]

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9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Make sure that this document is not broadcast as we

11 go into open session, please.

12 (redacted)

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14 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go to private session, please and redact

15 that line.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have to redact and go into private session.

17 [Private session]

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3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I still need to sign the redaction.

5 MR. NICHOLLS:

6 Q. Okay, sir, I'm nearly done with the questions I have for you. I

7 just want to wrap up about how events finished at the school and how you

8 came to leave the school and then we'll be almost done.

9 First of all, during the time at the school, were you able to see

10 whether or not Mr. Popovic was armed, whether he had a weapon?

11 A. He had a pistol.

12 Q. Thank you. You spoke about how Popovic called the brigade and

13 requested trucks. Did he ask for anything else from the brigade, for

14 anything else to be sent or anybody to come from the brigade, anything

15 else?

16 A. Yes. He said, "Urgently send me one of the two men who were or

17 who were located either in Petkovci or in Orahovac," one of these two

18 locations but I'm not sure which one he actually mentioned.

19 Q. All right. Now, at the time did you know who he was referring to?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever learn who these people were who had been requested to

22 be sent to the Rocevic school?

23 A. In a subsequent conversation with Milorad Trbic, when I explained

24 to him --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment. Yes, Mr. Meek?

1 MR. MEEK: I would ask that the witness take his ear phones off

2 also.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls? There is a request for

4 submission to be made. Yes go ahead, Mr. Meek.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Can I approach my friend for a minute?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

7 [Prosecution and Defence counsel confer]

8 MR. MEEK: I'll withdraw the objection at this point, Judge.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Yes. I'll repeat the question

10 myself to you, Mr. Acimovic, and then you start answering it. Did you

11 ever learn who these people were who had been requested to be sent to the

12 Rocevic school? And you had just started telling us, "In a subsequent

13 conversation with Milorad Trbic, when I explained to him --"

14 Will you go on, take it up from there, please?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I explained to him what this

16 was all about, when I told him that Popovic had uttered that sentence, he

17 told me that he had probably meant either him or Jasikovac. That Popovic

18 most probably had referred to either him or Jasikovac.

19 MR. NICHOLLS:

20 Q. And which Jasikovac is that? Who is Jasikovac? Do you know his

21 first name or his position?

22 A. The commander of the military police company.

23 Q. Of the Zvornik Brigade?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did Mr. Trbic tell you whether he or Mr. Jasikovac had gone to

1 the Rocevic school?

2 A. Later on, I learned, and I heard, that Jasikovac had gone down

3 there.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. And just to be clear, did you learn that

5 from Mr. Trbic or from somebody else?

6 A. I believe that Trbic told me.

7 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, can you tell the Court please how you

8 came to leave the school that morning after all this had gone on? How

9 did -- what happened? How did you end up leaving the school and when did

10 you leave?

11 A. I told Popovic, as I have already explained in my previous

12 statements, that I had to go back to my unit, given the situation that my

13 unit was in. I told him that I had to go. At that moment he called the

14 brigade and told them exactly what I have just mentioned. He called the

15 brigade, I don't know who he spoke to, and he asked that person to

16 urgently send one of these two men to Rocevic. At that moment he told me

17 to wait until one of the two turned up at the school and only then to go

18 back to my unit. I told him that I wouldn't wait, that I had to leave

19 immediately. He was in a haste. The whole conversation that I conducted

20 with Popovic was carried out in a haste. He rushed me. He came to the

21 door and he ordered me to wait for one of the two to get to the school and

22 only then to leave to go to my unit. And then he went down the corridor

23 swearing and cursing. I shouted after him, "I'm not going to wait. I'm

24 going to leave before." However, he went down the corridor. Whether he

25 left the school or whether he stayed on I'm not sure. A few moments

1 later, or maybe a few minutes later, I decided to leave that place where I

2 was. I went through the school door and I started walking to my car,

3 where my car was parked. I thought that maybe somebody would stop me but

4 nobody did. As nobody stopped me, I got into my car and I returned to my

5 unit, and this would be the long and the short of that.

6 Q. Okay. And approximately what time did you get back to your

7 2nd Battalion headquarters?

8 A. I cannot say with any degree of certainty, but I believe that it

9 was in the period between 11.30 and 12.15.

10 Q. Just to be very clear, that's in the afternoon?

11 A. That's when I left. That's when I left the school, in that

12 interval.

13 Q. Before you left the school, or when you were leaving the school,

14 did you see whether any prisoners were being transported? Were any

15 prisoners being put on trucks? Any movement of the prisoners going on in

16 any way?

17 A. I cannot say for sure whether there were any of them or not. I

18 was in a severe nightmare at the time, so I cannot be 100 per cent sure

19 whether the boarding or the loading of prisoners had already started to

20 one of the trucks. I cannot confirm that.

21 Q. And briefly, what did you do when you got back to the battalion

22 headquarters?

23 A. Very briefly, I explained to my colleagues that I mentioned in my

24 previous statement, and informed them about what was going on in the

25 Rocevic school, and what the intentions were, what was going to happen

1 with those prisoners. I explained to them briefly, and I believe that at

2 that point I called them fools or some such-like names. Once again, I

3 called the duty officer in the Zvornik Brigade and while I was calling him

4 I was explaining to them what was happening. I wanted to get in touch

5 again with the chief or possibly with the commander. However, the duty

6 officer told me again what he told me on the previous day, that is to say

7 that neither of the two were at the brigade headquarters. I also

8 explained to the duty officer what was going on in the school, what

9 actions I had taken, and what potentially could happen to those prisoners.

10 In response, he said that he couldn't do anything about it, that he was

11 helpless. That was the context.

12 Q. Now, in the answer you just gave you said you explained to my

13 colleagues that I mentioned in my previous statement. Could you tell us

14 who those two colleagues were when you came back and explained what was

15 happening at the Rocevic school?

16 A. I remember those were Vujo Lazarevic and Mitar Lazarevic. I asked

17 them to tell me if there was any news or any new developments in the

18 defence area of the battalion, and we were mainly focused on our duties

19 and obligations relating to the unit.

20 Q. All right. Were you ever disciplined in any way or was your

21 failure to follow this order ever discussed? Did you have problems with

22 that refusal to follow this order after these events had finished? And I

23 mean problems from the brigade.

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Do you recall whether you ever discussed it with any -- with

1 either the Chief of Staff Obrenovic or with any or with the commander or

2 with anybody else what had happened at the Rocevic school?

3 A. I didn't have an opportunity to discuss it with the commander and

4 as for the Chief of Staff, on one occasion I raised this subject with him

5 while he was visiting my unit. He said -- actually I tried to ask him

6 whether he had been informed that I tried to call him on numerous times

7 and that I had tried to get in touch with him. He cut short my statement,

8 that conversation, and said that he hadn't been available, that he had

9 been in the field and that he was inaccessible and that he also knew

10 nothing about the events that I was talking about, and that is where he

11 cut the conversation short.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have one moment?

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, I have no further questions at this

15 time.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Now, before we start

17 with the cross-examinations, can I ask you one by one the estimated time

18 you require? Mr. Zivanovic, you had indicated two hours.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek? You had indicated one hour.

21 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, I think we had put down 45 minutes and I

22 believe that will be reduced substantially.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Nikolic or Mr. Bourgon? You indicated

24 two hours.

25 MR. BOURGON: No change to what we indicated, Mr. President, but

1 that will be, of course, adjusted depending on what happens and the way

2 the cross-examination, Mr. Zivanovic does. Thank you, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Mr. Lazarevic?

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, as things stand now we don't have any

5 cross-examination but I cannot exclude the possibility that something

6 might raise. But now we don't have any cross-examination.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Madam Fauveau? You had indicated

8 30 minutes.

9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the moment, we

10 don't expect to have any questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Krgovic or Mr. Josse?

12 MR. JOSSE: Exactly the same, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. And Mr. Haynes? You had

14 indicated one hour.

15 MR. HAYNES: That's very pessimistic. I think 20 or 30 minutes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Who wishes to start? Mr. Zivanovic?

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Acimovic.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. Mr. Acimovic, from your answers, one may conclude, and also on the

24 basis on the information that I have, that as a soldier and as a company

25 commander, and a battalion commander, you were a very brave and courageous

1 man?

2 A. That is your assessment.

3 Q. You don't agree?

4 A. I wouldn't like to speak about myself.

5 Q. Thank you. I also have information that you were promoted from a

6 private to a company commander and eventually battalion commander

7 particularly due to what I just mentioned before. Do you not also wish to

8 speak about this?

9 A. I would tell you that it is true that I don't have any formal

10 military training and I acquired my rank during the war.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic and Mr. Acimovic, you're racing. And

13 that's no good for the interpreters. Please slow down. You speak the

14 same language, Mr. Acimovic, and Mr. Zivanovic, and there is a tendency

15 when that is the case for overlapping and one doesn't leave -- allow

16 enough time for the interpreters to catch up with you. So please allow a

17 short pause between question and answer. Thank you.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. From your yesterday's and today's evidence, one may conclude that

20 throughout your military service, you always observed military rules and

21 regulations. Is that correct?

22 A. Mainly speaking, yes.

23 Q. When you say mainly speaking, yes, does that imply that you did

24 not take part in the commission of any crimes, nor did you allow this to

25 be done by men under your command?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That also means that you didn't try to conceal these crimes and

3 their perpetrators; is that correct?

4 A. Can you please repeat the question. Or make it more clear.

5 Q. Does that also mean that you did not conceal this kind of crimes

6 and their perpetrators?

7 A. No, I didn't conceal them.

8 Q. Can you tell me, please, when were you demobilised?

9 A. I believe that it was in 1995 or 1996. I'm not 100 per cent sure.

10 Q. You were living in Rocevici with your family, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And as you told us yesterday, two companies of your soldiers were

13 also natives of Rocevici?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At the time, you were certainly very keen for your family and the

16 families of your soldiers to be safe; is that correct?

17 A. At any rate, yes, that was the case.

18 Q. Let us just please clarify one thing. As a battalion commander,

19 you were directly subordinate to the brigade commander, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In July 1995, or more precisely these two days that we are

22 discussing here, when the prisoners were in the school in Rocevici,

23 Dragan Obrenovic was the commander; is that correct?

24 A. I believe it is so because the commander himself was not present

25 at the time.

1 Q. In your evidence yesterday, you mentioned that at the time, you

2 didn't have a deputy in your battalion, that also one of your officers was

3 away, I think he was a security officer, and that practically you had two

4 assistants, one was Mitar Lazarevic and the other one was Vujo Lazarevic;

5 is that correct?

6 A. I didn't say that I had only two assistants.

7 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't -- I misunderstood you.

8 A. I said that I remember that they were there at the time.

9 Q. Can you tell me, what was precisely the duty of Mitar Lazarevic?

10 A. He was a desk officer for general affairs.

11 Q. Can you tell us more precisely what does that involve, a desk

12 officer for general affairs, in a battalion?

13 A. Mostly he kept records, paid salaries and things like that.

14 Q. Was he also in charge of keeping the records and the archive?

15 A. I think that the general affairs desk officer kept the archives

16 pending their return to the brigade.

17 Q. Do you know whether these archives were handed over to the

18 brigade?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. You did not attend the handover?

21 A. What kind of handover?

22 Q. The handover of the archives.

23 A. That was not one of my duties.

24 Q. Did he perhaps keep the attendance lists or the presence lists of

25 men in the battalion?

1 A. Can you please be more precise? What do you mean by keeping the

2 attendance records in the battalion?

3 Q. We had an opportunity to see certain forms, not only coming from

4 your battalion but from other battalions as well, which contain

5 information when personnel were in the unit, when personnel were away on

6 leave, et cetera. I'm asking you whether this was kept by

7 Mitar Lazarevic.

8 A. I believe that a general affairs officer was not in charge of

9 keeping attendance records. This was mainly within the purview of unit

10 commanders.

11 Q. When you say unit commanders, do you refer to company commanders?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what was the situation in the battalion command? Who kept

14 those records of attendance?

15 A. We had certain assignments and rotas that probably we adhered to.

16 We knew who was on duty, who was supposed to carry out certain activities

17 and things like that.

18 Q. Perhaps it will be helpful if I showed you these records just to

19 refresh your memory of how they look like. But I'll do it a little bit

20 later. However I'm under the impression that we are not speaking about

21 the same thing since apparently you cannot remember this form so I'm going

22 to show it to you later on.

23 Can you tell me, please, one more thing? Your battalion had a

24 facility in Kozluk, as you said yesterday?

25 A. Yes. No. Actually we didn't have it. We just spent time on

1 those premises. This is where our kitchen was for a certain period of

2 time.

3 Q. Can you tell me how far is Kozluk from Rocevici?

4 A. Seven kilometres.

5 Q. And this facility where you sometimes spent time, is it close to

6 the factory Vitinka?

7 A. You said temporarily located.

8 Q. No. I asked you whether it's in the facility of Vitinka factory?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In July 1995, when you went there as you explained, this facility

11 had been abandoned --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I apologise to you, Mr. Nicholls.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: I might be wrong. I think the interpreter is

14 struggling a bit again is my feeling.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Zivanovic and Mr. Acimovic.

16 You are both to blame.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Acimovic, before you came here you provided three statements

19 to the Office of the Prosecutor; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Those statements were recorded, weren't they?

22 A. They were recorded -- actually, the first two were. I'm not sure

23 about the third one.

24 Q. At the time when you provided those statements, and again now, you

25 did not feel threatened, you did not ask for any protective measures, in

1 order to come and testify here or in order to provide your statements to

2 the Tribunal; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. After that, did you have an occasion to look at the transcripts of

5 those statements or to hear the recordings played back to you?

6 A. Yes. I had such an occasion.

7 Q. Is it correct if I told you that every time you gave a statement,

8 each of those statements, new statements, contained something that you

9 hadn't said in your previous statement?

10 A. This is your view of the things.

11 Q. And you don't agree with that?

12 A. I provided my statement based on what I remembered.

13 Q. In other words, whenever you remembered something new, then in

14 your subsequent statement you added that to your previous statement, is

15 that what you're saying?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In your first statement, provided in 2001, you never mentioned

18 that you had met with Vujadin Popovic one day after the prisoners had been

19 brought to Rocevic, and that he had asked you to assign people to execute

20 these prisoners, that he had put pressure on you and so on and so forth,

21 that he had threatened you, cursed you, sweared, am I right in thinking

22 and saying that?

23 A. I was never put a question to be able to answer in that particular

24 way, as far as I can remember.

25 Q. Tell me, please, at the time you did not talk about that because a

1 question was not put to you and you believe that the investigators were

2 not interested in that?

3 A. No, not that they were not interested, but they simply did not jog

4 my memory in that sense. They didn't mention anything to entice me to

5 provide such an answer.

6 Q. Are you saying that it simply didn't cross your mind when you were

7 providing that statement and they never reminded you of such a detail?

8 A. Yes, exactly.

9 Q. In the second interview, they did ask you this, and they also

10 asked you how come you had not mentioned the thing that you were

11 mentioning then in your first statement, that is that you had come across

12 Popovic in the school or around the school, that he had put pressure on

13 you, that he ordered you to allocate people to execute the prisoners, that

14 he cursed you and swore, and your answer was more or less the same, in

15 that second interview. However, the question that the investigators put

16 to you at the time is something that is really striking and if you want me

17 to, I can read the question that was put to you at the time back to you or

18 I can give it to you to read it yourself. They first asked you whether

19 you knew anything about a large number of prisoners that had been brought

20 to the area of responsibility of the brigade, and then they explained to

21 you and they asked you whether you could provide some more detail about

22 those prisoners?

23 A. And that is exactly what I did.

24 Q. But you never mentioned Popovic, the pressures put to you, the

25 alleged request that you should assign people to execute these people and

1 so on and so forth?

2 A. We spoke about the prisoners.

3 Q. In other words, that conversation with Popovic did not have

4 anything to do with the prisoners?

5 A. I did not have the impression that I was supposed to talk about

6 that, and it never occurred to me. I just did not think about that. I

7 just focused on the questions that were put to me and I just made sure

8 that I answered them. Given the fact that this had happened in 1995 and

9 my first statement was provided maybe six or seven years later, I had to

10 focus very hard on the questions and the answers that I was going to give.

11 Q. In other words, this encounter with Popovic, his request to give

12 you people to execute the prisoners and the rest of the things, those

13 things just slipped your mind at that moment?

14 A. Precisely.

15 Q. Mr. Acimovic, now, when you're here, you've had interviews with

16 the Prosecutor and you have provided them with some new information that

17 was not known before, i.e., that you never mentioned in any of the three

18 statements that you provided previously. Just, for example, let me

19 mention a few things that you never mentioned in your second statement,

20 even after your memory had been jogged. For example, you never stated in

21 your statement that under the alleged Popovic's pressure you went to the

22 school courtyard and asked for the volunteers to execute the prisoners.

23 Is that another thing that simply slipped your mind?

24 A. I did not say anything to that effect. This is how I explained

25 things: One of those individuals asked me what was going on, and then I

1 said to them what I had been asked to do, what I had been requested to do,

2 and that was all I said.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

4 MR. NICHOLLS: And the question has been asked and answered but

5 just for the record I would object to that misstatement in the last

6 question and what the witness has just said is precisely what he said on

7 his direct examination, not what was put to him that he said.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what's your comment on that, Mr. Zivanovic?

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the gist of my

10 question is not the exact wording of what the witness said. The gist of

11 my question is that the witness never said it before. This is the essence

12 of my question. The witness never mentioned this detail before. That's

13 why I'm putting this question to him and my question to him is precisely

14 this:

15 Q. How come you never mentioned this before?

16 A. I really can't answer your question. Not that I don't want to. I

17 simply can't remember.

18 Q. You don't remember why you didn't mention it in any of your three

19 interviews?

20 A. Yes, precisely. You can't remember every detail, every tiny

21 detail of every situation. I've already told you how long ago this

22 happened.

23 Q. Yes. On that occasion, you also didn't say that you had asked

24 from Popovic for people to be evacuated from Rocevic and then he called

25 the brigade and asked for some vehicles?

1 A. Could you please repeat that question?

2 MR. NICHOLLS: On what occasion is the question that I have.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, the witness said it

5 on page 55, line 17 of the LiveNote.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, it's still not clear in my mind

7 either. If I understood Mr. Nicholls correctly, he was referring

8 specifically to your question which was: "You don't remember why you

9 didn't mention it in any of your three interviews?" "Yes, precisely. You

10 can't remember every detail," et cetera. And then you said, "Yes. On

11 that occasion you also didn't say that you had asked from Popovic for

12 people to be evacuated ..." Which occasion? Because even from what you

13 repeated, it's still not clear in my mind and the witness seems to have

14 understood, and you seem to have understood his testimony here basically

15 which I don't think is the case. I may be wrong but I --

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Q. In none of your three statements did you mention that you asked

18 from Popovic to evacuate these people and that after that Popovic called

19 the brigade and asked for the lorries to be sent.

20 A. You should read my statements more carefully and you will find the

21 answer to that question, my answer to what you're asking me now. I said,

22 I believe I did, that I asked for these people to be evacuated, to be

23 returned to wherever they had come from, because a disaster would take

24 place, that some of the units might be tempted to leave their positions

25 and so on and so forth.

1 Q. Very well, then. Would you agree with me when I say that on any

2 of the -- in any of the statements did you mention any of the names that

3 you mentioned here in the courtroom?

4 A. I would agree.

5 Q. You also forgot them?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. But you did not want to mention their names to the Prosecutor's

8 Office?

9 A. If I hadn't wanted to, I would not have mentioned them now.

10 Q. But in your three interviews, you didn't want to mention them, you

11 remembered them but you didn't want to mention their names?

12 A. That's not correct. You're not right.

13 Q. Did you mention them in your first three interviews?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Line 7, 8 and 9 on page 30 are not clear. In any

16 case, I think one could understand them. Let's proceed.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Acimovic, tell me, please, can you actually give me the

19 reasons why you never mentioned the names of these people before?

20 A. I've explained the reasons to the Prosecutor.

21 Q. You're not going to do the same for us, are you?

22 A. Not that I don't want to. I can do that. I told the Prosecutor--

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, maybe we should go into private

24 session. I don't know exactly what's coming.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree, Mr. Zivanovic?

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. I agree.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

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3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

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11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: At the request of Mr. Zivanovic, we are having a

21 break now, and it will be of 25 minutes duration. That covers the

22 redaction sufficiently? Okay? 25 minutes starting from now. Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic?

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Acimovic, let us begin with your first

3 statement and your other previous statements, about your arrival in

4 Rocevici, in those days when the prisoners were there. Can you please

5 first tell me how did you arrive at Rocevici?

6 A. In a car.

7 Q. Was that a passenger car?

8 A. Yes, it was.

9 Q. After your arrival in Rocevici and until the president of the

10 local commune and the priest came to see you, how long was it?

11 A. I suppose about 30 minutes.

12 Q. You and the president of the local commune and the priest went to

13 the school?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How long did it take you to get there?

16 A. We drove in a car and it took a couple of minutes.

17 Q. How far is your house from the school?

18 A. About 400 to 500 to 600 metres.

19 Q. Were you in the same car?

20 A. I don't think we were.

21 Q. Mr. Acimovic, I have information that at that time, you talked to

22 the men who were guarding the prisoners and that on that occasion you were

23 alone. In other words, that you alone approached these soldiers without

24 the priest and without the president of the local commune.

25 A. That is the information you have.

1 Q. Yes. That is precisely what I said. Only tell me if that is

2 true.

3 A. No.

4 Q. I have another information that after you talked to these soldiers

5 and this conversation lasted only a couple of minutes, you said that

6 jerrycans with water will be provided and that these soldiers would be

7 exchanged. In other words, this is what the soldiers told you, that these

8 POWs were going to be exchanged; is that correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. After that, as you said, you went to Kozluk?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. To make a telephone call?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I put it to you that this is not true because in the log of the

15 duty officer, which is an unofficial document, there is no entry with

16 relation to any of the calls that you made. Do you know anything about

17 that?

18 A. This is what you claim. This is what you are saying.

19 Q. Yes. Exactly.

20 A. So what do you want me to tell you?

21 Q. Whether it's true or not.

22 A. You said that I was not telling the truth.

23 Q. Absolutely.

24 A. So you have finished.

25 Q. You claim that you called the duty officer from Kozluk?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell me why didn't you do that from Rocevici?

3 A. Because at the time I didn't have a telephone available, an

4 induction telephone available, not a civilian one but an induction

5 telephone. There was one induction telephone in Kozluk on those premises

6 that I mentioned before.

7 Q. Does that mean that it was impossible to call the brigade from

8 Rocevici via a regular phone?

9 A. No.

10 Q. But you nevertheless decided to go to Kozluk?

11 A. I think I was headed for my unit and on the way there, I made this

12 call, because I didn't want to wait because this telephone was handy

13 before I got to Malesic.

14 Q. In other words, your original idea was first to go to Malesici?

15 A. No, my first idea was to call the brigade.

16 Q. From Malesici?

17 A. From Kozluk.

18 Q. I understood you that you were on your way to Malesici, you just

19 dropped by in Kozluk?

20 A. My intention was to call the brigade as soon as possible, and that

21 is what I did, and I did that from Kozluk for your information.

22 Q. You are saying that then you talked to Vujadin Popovic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You said that you told him on that occasion that the men guarding

25 the prisoners were under the influence of drugs or alcohol, that they were

1 behaving erratically?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Acimovic, this applies more to you now than to

4 Mr. Zivanovic. Please allow Mr. Zivanovic to finish his question and

5 allow also a short pause after that so that we receive interpretation

6 before you start giving your answer. You're trying to answer his

7 questions before he has even finished them. So please calm down and take

8 my advice, allow this short pause before you give your answer. Thank you.

9 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Zivanovic.

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You were then given an explanation that these prisoners would be

12 exchanged on the following day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As I understand, this calmed you down to a certain extent and for

15 that reason you went back to Kozluk -- no, I apologise -- to Rocevic, in

16 order to convey this again to the president of the local commune and the

17 priest?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And they accepted that, that kind of explanation?

20 A. I just relayed information to them.

21 Q. After that, you went to Malesic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell me, please, in what way did you, the president of the local

24 commune and the priest were calmed down after receiving this information

25 that on the following day the prisoners were going to be exchanged, since

1 you knew that these men allegedly guarding the prisoners were to remain in

2 the village and these people were behaving erratically, doing all sorts of

3 things, they wounded a woman according to you? How could that possibly

4 have calmed you, the priest, the president of the local commune and the

5 whole village?

6 A. Didn't I tell you that we tried to convince the soldiers guarding

7 the prisoners to give them water or to give permission for water to be

8 given to the prisoners and everything else that they had asked for in

9 order to calm those people down? They were in the gym. After these

10 lengthy process of persuasion which lasted for about half an hour, I said

11 that they accepted that, and I explained how they accepted for water to be

12 given to them, and this I suppose had some effect on people getting calm.

13 I also believed that this information was important and crucial, saying

14 that those men were going to be exchanged the following day and that the

15 killing would not -- the killing of the prisoners would not continue, and

16 the things of that nature, and I believe that to be crucial information

17 for the residents of that village.

18 Q. That was crucial information, as far as prisoners were concerned.

19 What about the local residents? They had to stay there overnight. Your

20 family, the families of your soldiers, had to spend the night with people

21 who were armed, who were shooting, who wounded this woman. How could you

22 become calm in view of that and leave that area?

23 A. Yes. I became calm.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls?

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I may be wrong but I think it's exactly the same

1 question pretty much that he answered about how after they had this

2 discussion about the water everybody calmed down a little bit.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so too but Mr. Zivanovic might not agree

4 with that. Let's proceed, Mr. Zivanovic. Let's proceed.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. I've noticed in the transcript that it hasn't been recorded about

7 the -- your facility of your battalion in Kozluk. Was it close to the

8 Vitinka factory?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. Thank you. You assert that you informed your two colleagues,

11 Mitar Lazarevic and Vujo Lazarevic, about all this?

12 A. Yes. There may have been someone else, but -- from among my

13 colleagues but I don't remember. That is why I mentioned their names

14 specifically.

15 Q. You also mentioned a telegram that you received that night.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You cannot recall who signed the telegram, as you said?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You sent a reply, didn't you?

20 A. I beg your pardon?

21 Q. You did send a reply to this telegram?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You also don't know who it was addressed to?

24 A. We sent it back to the one who sent it to us, or to the duty

25 operations officer.

1 Q. Mr. Acimovic, I admit that I find it a little bit strange that you

2 cannot remember who wrote and sent this telegram to you, in which you were

3 requested to do something that probably nobody asked you to do the same

4 thing during the war. Am I right?

5 A. I think I explained that in my previous statements quite

6 sufficiently.

7 Q. I am under the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that by

8 giving that reply, you were trying to protect someone.

9 A. Absolutely not.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, Mr. Acimovic, please allow Mr. Zivanovic to

11 finish his question and then also a brief pause so that we get the

12 interpretation before you start giving your answer. Otherwise, it can

13 happen that you will be answering in your own language and the

14 interpreter -- while the interpreters are still translating to us what

15 Mr. Zivanovic is saying.

16 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. At the time when you gave this statement, you were aware that

19 there were proceedings being conducted against Dragan Obrenovic?

20 A. I'm not sure.

21 Q. You were in contact with his Defence team?

22 A. Yes, yes. I had contacts with all Defence teams.

23 Q. Yes, yes. I'm talking about that particular period when you made

24 those statements, that was in 2001 and 2002. Were you in touch with the

25 Defence of Dragan Obrenovic at the time?

1 A. Yes. I said yes, I did, at their initiative.

2 Q. Did you tell that to the investigators? Did they ask you about

3 it?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I told them.

5 Q. Do you remember when did you tell them that, on the first or the

6 second or the third occasion?

7 A. I honestly cannot remember.

8 Q. I'll try to remind you. Did you say that when you were informed

9 that you had been given a status of suspect? That was your last interview

10 with the Prosecution.

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. I have information that prior to Dragan Obrenovic's arrest, he had

13 meetings with various people from the Zvornik Brigade, at which it was

14 agreed what to say should they be asked questions by the Prosecution. Did

15 you attend any of those meetings?

16 A. I didn't attend a single of those meetings with Obrenovic.

17 Neither did I have any contact with him regarding this matter, at any

18 time.

19 Q. Did you have meetings with someone else?

20 A. I told you.

21 Q. You assert that on that night, when you received the telegram, and

22 generally during that day, you were unable to communicate with

23 Dragan Obrenovic via the duty officer?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At the time, Dragan Obrenovic was in command of the brigade and he

1 was your immediate superior and I put it to you that you had direct

2 communication line with him; am I right?

3 A. No, not at the time. In that period, but I don't know which

4 period we are talking about. Earlier on, I had a line of communication

5 with him but I could not communicate to him about the events that we are

6 talking about.

7 Q. When was your line of communication between you and Obrenovic

8 interrupted?

9 A. Can you specify what you mean? Can you be more specific when you

10 say this direct line of communication? What do you mean?

11 Q. I would like to you clarify your previous answer. In your

12 previous answer you stated, "Not at that time, at that time I did not have

13 a direct line of communication."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. "In that period, but I don't know what period you are talking

16 about. Earlier on, I did have a line of communication with him but I

17 could not communicate to him about the events that we are talking about."

18 A. All this time you are trying to play games of words with me. Let

19 me try to explain some things to you. Every brigade commander and every

20 Chief of Staff have very clear lines with the subordinate units, and I

21 really don't understand what you are not clear about in that.

22 Q. I'm absolutely very clear on everything, and this is what I am

23 saying, that you had a direct line of communication with Obrenovic?

24 A. When?

25 Q. All the time.

1 A. This is what you claim. This is your opinion and your view.

2 Q. And you're saying that you could not establish communication

3 through the duty operations officer, through the radio?

4 A. You're right.

5 Q. And what about courier?

6 A. No. That was not available to me because I didn't know where the

7 courier was at the time. If I had known where he was, I would have

8 probably sent him there.

9 Q. Are you saying that the brigade didn't know either where the

10 courier was either?

11 A. I'm not saying that. I can't say that. This is the answer I was

12 given, and I have related it to you.

13 Q. Did you send a courier to the brigade for the duty operations

14 officer to tell him where the courier was?

15 A. Why would I send a courier to the brigade? I could communicate

16 with the brigade. I was in communication with the brigade.

17 Q. For the duty operations officer to tell me -- to tell him where

18 Obrenovic was. Maybe he could have conveyed your message.

19 A. Why would the duty operations officer have told my courier where

20 Obrenovic was and he would not have told me on several occasions that I

21 tried to elicit that information from him?

22 Q. It arises from that, that the duty operations officer did not know

23 where Obrenovic was.

24 A. I can't confirm that. He told me that he didn't know where he

25 was, that he wasn't available, that he was in the field, and that he

1 wasn't available. This is what the duty operations officer told me.

2 Q. But you don't know who the duty operations officer was?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreters are really doing a wonderful job

4 with the difficulties that you are creating for them. I would hate to be

5 in their position.

6 Please slow down, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Acimovic, I'm putting it to you that you did not receive any

10 telegrams from the brigade at the time and especially not a telegram with

11 such content, requesting you to allocate people for the execution, and I

12 am basing this on the fact that such a telegram was not registered

13 anywhere.

14 A. You can put anything to -- you want to me, and I'm not interested

15 the least bit in what you are putting to me because I'm telling the truth.

16 Q. You don't know where the telegram that you received can be found?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I'm also putting to you that you never received an order either

19 from the duty operations officer or in a telegram or from Vujadin Popovic

20 to allocate men for the execution.

21 A. I've already told you: You can put anything you want to me. I'm

22 not interested in that at all.

23 Q. If you had received an order of that sort, and you knew that it

24 was illegal, why didn't you report that to your commander then?

25 A. Did I not tell you that I could not get in touch with either the

1 commander or the Chief of Staff?

2 Q. Until when?

3 A. During that night and during the following day, I'm sure I

4 couldn't. And I don't know exactly when after that the Chief of Staff

5 returned to the brigade. I can't tell you when he returned to the

6 brigade.

7 Q. But I'm sure that you had an opportunity after that to report that

8 to your commander?

9 A. I did not have an opportunity to discuss that matter at all. I

10 reported that to the duty operations officer, and that was more than

11 enough. The duty officer in the brigade got my report.

12 Q. And you believed that the commander should not have been informed

13 about such an order that was against the law and that's why you didn't

14 inform him?

15 A. Not that he should not have been informed. He was not there, and

16 it was more than enough for the duty operations officer in the brigade to

17 be briefed about such an order, and I believe that it was his duty to

18 inform the commander or the Chief of Staff at their first opportunity.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to private session,

20 please, Your Honours, just for a brief moment.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Zivanovic. Let's go into private

22 session, please.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And if either of you are at the point of mentioning

12 any names that we haven't been mentioning in public session, then alert us

13 immediately so that we go into private session.

14 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic. We are in open session now.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Acimovic, you also couldn't remember who received that

17 telegram?

18 A. That's true.

19 Q. You can't remember --

20 A. Just a moment, please. Who received the telegram you're saying?

21 I said in my previous statements that I believe that in the course of that

22 night, the duty officer in the battalion command was Mitar Lazarevic.

23 Q. Do you remember who decoded the telegram?

24 A. I was not there at the moment when the telegram was decoded

25 actually, I was asleep. They only woke me up once the telegram had been

1 decoded and it arrived at my desk already decoded, when I came downstairs.

2 Q. Do you remember who sent your reply?

3 A. I believe it was the duty operations officer as well.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you proceed. In your system at

5 the time, was decoding a privileged matter? In other words, was there a

6 specific person assigned to decoding messages or could anyone present

7 there do it?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that every battalion command

9 had a table for decoding of telegrams that were sent within that context

10 and I believe that this could be found in the duty operations officer's

11 room.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: My question is: Would the duty officer on duty at

13 any time a message comes in be able or be able to decode that message or

14 does he -- would he have to hand it over to a person tasked with the

15 decoding procedure?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer your question because

17 in practice we received very few coded telegrams. I'm not sure whether

18 the duty officer decoded the telegram himself or maybe he did it together

19 with somebody else. It is possible that somebody assisted him, but I'm

20 not sure.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Back to you, Mr. Zivanovic.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. In your previous statements and again here, you have stated that

24 upon the receipt of this telegram you didn't call the duty officer in the

25 brigade in order to check the accuracy of the telegram; is that correct?

1 A. I can't remember.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Again, just to be clear for the record. There were

4 two telegrams. I don't know exactly -- maybe he said the first one, I'm

5 not sure though, it's not clear on the record which telegram my friend is

6 asking questions about.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a legitimate observation. Perhaps you can

8 address this, Mr. Zivanovic.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try and be more precise.

10 Q. In your previous statements you have stated that you didn't call

11 the duty officer either after the first or the second telegram in order to

12 check their accuracy; is that correct?

13 A. I really can't remember. I don't remember at all.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move into private

15 session again, Your Honours?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's do that, please.

17 [Private session]

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8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In your previous statements, you mentioned that in front of you

14 Popovic requested two men to be sent to him from the brigade. This time,

15 you said that he only asked for one of the two.

16 A. Maybe it was not interpreted properly, if that is what you heard.

17 I always maintained that he wanted one of the two. That is literally what

18 he said.

19 Q. In your previous statements, the Prosecutor asked you, inter alia,

20 if you had seen any trucks arriving at Rocevici.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer. Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

22 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like a page reference from my friend please

23 about the previous statement because I'm looking at page 30 of the 2002

24 interview and his answer on this issue is, "He said send me one of the --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. You shouldn't be saying this in the

1 witness's presence.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I apologise. Then I just ask for a page reference.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Just ask for a page reference and you would be able

4 to follow.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is page 30 of his interview from -- no, no, no,

6 no, just a moment. It is second interview, his second interview, page 30.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's the same one you had in mind,

8 Mr. Nicholls? Or is it a different one?

9 MR. NICHOLLS: It may be. I haven't had time but what I have on

10 page 30 in English does not reflect what was put to the witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Let's make sure we are talking of the same

12 section first. Okay? Mr. Zivanovic is suggesting that this comes from

13 page 30 of the second interview, and you had referred to page 30 of the

14 2002 interview.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: That's the same interview and I'm looking at lines

16 5 to 6. It's ERN L0069717 that I'm referring to. And that should be at

17 about page 29, lines 19 to 21 of the B/C/S version.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: There seems to be disagreement between you as to the

19 way that you are putting your question.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, I'll withdraw my question.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, both of you. Go ahead, please.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Acimovic, I'm going to show you the records of attendance of

24 personnel that I mentioned before. I'm going to ask you just to tell me

25 if you remember that. Do you remember this document? It's a document --

1 maybe we can use an ELMO because I can't give you the precise number.

2 Maybe it will be easier for you if you look to the right. I think

3 you can see it there better.

4 Now you also have it on your monitor. What I wanted to ask you is

5 this regarding this -- these records: Can you tell me, please, do you

6 remember seeing this record?

7 A. Partly.

8 Q. I think this shouldn't be broadcast. That would be advisable.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a reason why you wouldn't like it to be

10 broadcast? Okay. I can understand the reason. All right. So we block

11 the broadcasting for the same reasons as before. And we go into private

12 session.

13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. The reason for it not

14 to be broadcast is because some of potential witnesses may be on this

15 list. That's the only reason.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you going to refer to names specifically?

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I'm not, no. I'm not going to

18 mention any names. That is -- but I just ask for it not to be broadcast

19 anyway.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Then we can proceed in open

21 session but we'll block that part where it was broadcast in any case.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Zivanovic.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you remember these records?

25 A. No. I didn't keep these records.

1 Q. Do you know who did?

2 A. Probably the general affairs desk officer.

3 Q. Was that the aforementioned Mr. Mitar Lazarevic?

4 A. I suppose so.

5 Q. Then you don't know if these records were forwarded to the brigade

6 command. Was it sent to someone, to the brigade command?

7 A. I'm not sure but I think this is just a formality. I didn't pay

8 any attention at all to these matters at the time.

9 Q. It says here that this is the record of the presence of personnel

10 in the command involved in combat operations. You were not interested in

11 that?

12 A. Not that I wasn't interested in that, but we had our assignments

13 and our tasks given to each individual listed here, and this is where

14 particular attention was paid, and I think that this was done by the

15 general affairs desk officer. It even says here that there is a man

16 called Stevo Savic and some other names, but I noticed Stevo Savic who at

17 the time was demobilised, which means that this is not a valid document.

18 So actually you can see here -- yes, these boxes are empty, blank.

19 Q. At any rate, you maintain that you never saw this, never checked

20 this?

21 A. No, I never checked this kind of documents.

22 Q. You would recall -- I apologise. Just give me a second to find

23 it -- your statement -- your third statement given to the Prosecution, or

24 not -- rather, not the statement but the interview that you had with the

25 Prosecutor, that was your last interview before your coming here and it

1 took place on the 29th of October 2002?

2 A. Did you say the second one?

3 Q. 29th of October 2002?

4 A. And what kind of statement are you referring to, the first or

5 second one?

6 Q. This was just an information report. We are not talking about the

7 interviews that you had and which were audio recorded.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, please slow down. Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

10 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know if my friend is done with the document

11 but I don't think it's anywhere in the record what the 65 ter number was

12 or what we were looking at.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Correct.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's on the list, it was put in e-court.

16 THE REGISTRAR: The document was 65 ter number 312, Prosecution

17 document.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. We are talking about this information report compiled on the 29th

20 of October 2002. In this report, you said, among other things, that you

21 accepted the fact that you will have to testify and that you wouldn't be

22 very happy to do that because the accused in that case were your former

23 war comrades.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And by that, you meant Mr. Obrenovic as well?

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Acimovic, the interpreters couldn't hear

3 your answer because you gave it while they were still translating to us.

4 Can you repeat it, please?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat the question?

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. On that occasion, you told the Prosecution that you accepted the

8 fact that you would have to testify but that you weren't too happy about

9 that because the accused in that case were your former war comrades.

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And after that, I asked you whether by that you also meant

12 Obrenovic, and you said, "Don't know."

13 A. I really don't know, at the time I had information and I still

14 don't know whether Obrenovic was -- what was his status at the time,

15 whether any proceedings had been instituted against him.

16 Q. I'm going to try and refresh your memory now. You were also asked

17 a question -- I can even show you a document, 1D202, and maybe it will be

18 easier for you if you can read it.

19 It's on page 2, paragraph 3. And in the English version, it's

20 page 1, last paragraph. This is where it begins. Can you see it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The third paragraph reads, "Acimovic was asked whether he thought

23 that Obrenovic tried to avoid him when he tried to contact him ..."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. "... on the night in July 1995 when Acimovic received an order to

1 take a firing squad to the school in Rocevici."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then you said that you didn't know what Obrenovic had in mind.

4 A. This is a wrong translation. I said on that occasion -- I

5 apologise. Can you please repeat your question once again?

6 Q. Well, you can read it for yourself but, okay. "Acimovic was asked

7 whether he thought that Obrenovic was trying to avoid him when he tried to

8 get in touch with him (on the night in July 1995 when Acimovic received an

9 order to take a firing squad to the school Rocevic). Acimovic said that

10 he didn't know what Obrenovic had in mind at the time."

11 A. As far as I can remember, I was asked the following question:

12 Whether Obrenovic knew, and I said that I supposed that he did know.

13 That's what I said.

14 Q. In other words, this is a mistake, probably a wrong translation or

15 the understanding of your words.

16 A. Probably wrong translation. I said that I supposed that Obrenovic

17 had known. I cannot confirm whether he did or didn't, that I assume that

18 he did.

19 Q. Look at the following -- at the next paragraph. "Asked again

20 whether he thought that Obrenovic was trying to avoid him, Acimovic said

21 it wasn't logical for Obrenovic not to have known what was going on since

22 there were army telephones, civilian telephones, radio communications, and

23 if all this was -- all this failed, it was possible to communicate through

24 a courier."

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And it was impossible for him not to know what was going on?

2 A. That is what my supposition was.

3 Q. Can you go on reading? Can you see that a similar question was

4 put to you again?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, before you answer the question. Before

6 you start.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm not clear where the questions are here. He's

8 having him read parts of the statement and then just having him read more

9 parts. So, so far there hasn't been a question about what this means or

10 he's just reading, having the witness read parts of the information report

11 and then not asking questions so I don't understand.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The previous question, basically, I think you have

13 it clear there, what was meant. The proposition was put to the witness

14 relating to part of his interview. He was asked whether he stands by that

15 or whether it's -- and he's even suggested that there could be a case of

16 wrong translation. So I think we can proceed. Go ahead. I do understand

17 what you said. I don't minimise it but I think it's better if we proceed.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. As we read on, you will see that a question was put to you again

20 whether you were under the impression that Obrenovic wanted to avoid you

21 because he didn't answer your question. "And it was said to Acimovic that

22 he didn't have an opinion of that question, that he should have stated

23 that," and then you stated that you didn't know what Obrenovic thought at

24 the time.

25 A. This is very ambiguous. You will agree with me, won't you? And I

1 believe that this is just a matter of mistranslation or bad translation.

2 As far as I can remember, I was asked, as you have just said it, and I

3 said that I assumed that Obrenovic had known and I provided similar

4 answers to all of these questions, and here this is represented within

5 another context.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it's a case of moving to your next

7 area of questions because this has been beaten enough, I think. He's

8 answered you.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. At that time, your status was changed and you were told that you

11 were no longer a witness but a suspect; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. You were talking about a debriefing in the brigade, in the Zvornik

14 Brigade?

15 A. This is a word that I don't understand.

16 Q. You're right. This is a meeting. This -- our word for debriefing

17 would be meeting or -- back or reporting back?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Wasn't that an occasion to convey to your commander what had

20 happened?

21 A. I don't think I had an opportunity to talk to the commander about

22 that topic at the time. This was post festum, after all the developments

23 that had taken place in our area of responsibility relative to the passage

24 of enemy soldiers, you know that there were a lot of displaced soldiers

25 and wounded and I believe that this meeting was focused around that,

1 around those developments.

2 Q. When you say these meetings, these debriefings, would that be an

3 opportunity for you to say what had happened in your unit? Would that be

4 an opportunity for you to inform the commander about what had happened in

5 your unit?

6 A. It largely depended on the type of meeting. In any case,

7 reporting back is an occasion to report about the tasks that had been put

8 by the commander. We have to report back about the tasks that the

9 commander had given to his subordinate officers.

10 Q. You are very categorical when you said that the prisoners in the

11 school in Rocevic were not guarded by the Zvornik Brigade members and I

12 have the same information.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But you also said that they were guarded by some guards from

15 Bratunac and Visegrad.

16 A. I did not say that they were guarded by guards from Bratunac and

17 Visegrad.

18 Q. That you heard that?

19 A. Yes. I heard, rumour had it, that that was the case but I also

20 told you that that information was not reliable, that it was not from a

21 reliable source.

22 Q. I believe that you told that it was the first time when you had

23 gotten in touch with the Obrenovic Defence team?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And after that, your status of witness had been reinstated. If

1 you wish, you can look at the end of your statement, that's page 3, the

2 last two or three paragraphs on that page. Very brief paragraphs.

3 A. Yes. What's the question?

4 Q. Is that true? I have not been quoting from the statement, I have

5 put to you a question and I am asking whether what I put to you is

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, but here, this is not very clearly described.

8 Q. Can you clarify for us?

9 A. I said to the Obrenovic Defence team, to his lawyers, the same

10 thing I said to the Prosecutor's Office. I answered some questions in the

11 exact same way. They were interested in some details.

12 Q. They were interested in the details that had to do with him?

13 A. I really can't remember at this moment.

14 Q. That will be all.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

16 this witness, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Who wishes to go next?

18 Mr. Bourgon? We'll have to break at quarter to 6.00.

19 MR. BOURGON: With your leave, Mr. President, maybe we could take

20 the break now and go right up till the end instead of doing it in two

21 parts. It's already 20 after 5.00, with the break, and then we can do one

22 session until the end, which would be better for me, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we are all in agreement with that. The

24 break will be of 25 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 5.22 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed, Mr. Bourgon. I'm

3 informed that Mr. Ostojic would like to address the Chamber on some issue

4 at the end of the sitting so please allow five minutes for that purpose.

5 Would five minutes be enough, Mr. Ostojic?

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Should be more than enough. Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So five minutes before the end. Go

8 ahead.

9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: If you don't finish today, you continue tomorrow.

11 There is no problem.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Acimovic.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. My name is Stephane Bourgon and I represent the accused

16 Drago Nikolic in this case. But I take it that's not something that you

17 were not aware of, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As I've already mentioned to you when we met, I have a bit of a

20 different angle of approach to the cross-examination, which will be

21 divided into two parts. The first part I'd like to discuss with you

22 basically your knowledge of Drago Nikolic and in the second part to go

23 into some of the operating procedures within your battalion.

24 Before I do so, I just have a few questions and I'll simply begin

25 by saying or asking you to confirm that you are a battalion commander

1 since November of 1992; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So by July of 1995, you had been a battalion commander for more

4 than three years; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So I take it, and it is my understanding, that by 1995, you knew

7 your job pretty well; is that correct?

8 A. I wouldn't like to speak about myself.

9 Q. Then let me just ask you very straightforward: Did you know your

10 job as a battalion commander in July 1995?

11 A. I did my best.

12 Q. Would I be right in saying that many soldiers in your battalion,

13 that the same cannot be said of them because many of these soldiers had

14 little, and in any event, less military experience than you had? Would

15 that be correct?

16 A. In what respect?

17 Q. General military knowledge and maybe I can use the expression that

18 in many respects some of the soldiers within the Zvornik Brigade were

19 either civilians in uniform or weekend warriors. Would that be a

20 description of the quality of soldiers in general within Zvornik Brigade?

21 A. Are you talking generally about the whole period or --

22 Q. In general. I'm just saying, let's say in 1995, the war is about

23 to end, I'm just saying that the soldiers within Zvornik Brigade, we

24 cannot speak, even by 1995, of a professional army; would that be correct?

25 A. They were not a professional army. That's true. But they knew

1 what they were doing and what they were supposed to do.

2 Q. And if they knew what they were supposed to do, that was because

3 they had, indeed, some good officers, and I'm -- refer to you despite your

4 relatively few years of service, within three years you had managed to

5 build an effective battalion. Would that be a fair statement?

6 A. I did my best to carry out my duties to the best of my ability,

7 throughout the whole period that we are talking about. I said earlier

8 that I had absolutely no military training.

9 Q. So it was a steep learning curve for you to reach the level at

10 which you were in July of 1995?

11 A. I don't see any steep curve.

12 Q. Well, I am just trying here to establish your manner of commanding

13 in July of 1995, and all I'm trying to refer to is the fact that within

14 the period of three years or a little more, you went from a private to a

15 battalion commander, and you exercised command over a large number of

16 individuals, and that is an accomplishment in itself. Would you agree

17 with that?

18 A. I would not talk about any successes as such.

19 Q. Okay. Let's take it from another point of view. Despite the fact

20 that war is something that nobody likes, your position as battalion

21 commander is something that suited you well; is that correct? You felt

22 comfortable in that position; is that so?

23 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question. What are you trying

24 to get from me? Can you be more specific, please? I must tell you,

25 though, I have to answer you by saying that I don't think that any single

1 soldier can feel comfortable during the war. I really don't understand

2 where you got that notion from. A war is the worst thing that can happen

3 to any one people and it's therefore very hard to talk about comfort or

4 people being suited to a role or feeling comfortable in a role.

5 Q. Let's -- Mr. Acimovic, let's take a practical example so that we

6 try to establish contact together. You remember The Untouchables, do you?

7 A. I really don't know what you're talking about.

8 Q. The intervention unit, The Untouchables, do you know who that is?

9 A. No.

10 Q. That's not an intervention unit that you put together within

11 2nd Battalion, The Untouchables?

12 A. No, no.

13 Q. Well, tomorrow I'll show you -- I'm just mentioning where I took

14 this from and then tomorrow I'll show you the source because I just wanted

15 to share that with you. It wasn't my intent to contradict you with that

16 but we have a Drinski magazine article that talks about you and the

17 accomplishments of the Untouchables. Are you saying you have no idea who

18 that is?

19 A. I'm afraid you did not read the article properly. It was not The

20 Untouchables but The Unbreakables. That was the name of the unit.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Precisely, I was going to suggest, because in the

22 back of my mind I had the suspicion that the word was being translated

23 into something which you wouldn't understand. So if we can make sure

24 you're using both of you the same word in Serbo-Croat or whatever language

25 it is. If you can read it out.

1 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Mr. President. Maybe I'll cite it for

2 tomorrow not to waste any time because I have in the English translation

3 The Untouchables, but I guess we are talking about The Unbreakables. So

4 you know The Unbreakables?

5 A. Well, these are two different words, aren't they? The

6 Untouchables, The Unbreakables, two different things, do not belong to the

7 same context.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the original word used in the article, if

9 you have it in the original language?

10 MR. BOURGON: I don't presently, Mr. President. I just have the

11 English translation, but I'm told that the original word is

12 "unbreakable". It should read,"unbreakable" but what I have says

13 "untouchable".

14 Q. Now, did you set up that unit, Mr. Acimovic, The Unbreakables?

15 A. Yes. An intervention platoon. That was an intervention platoon.

16 Every infantry battalion, on the order of the brigade commander, had to

17 establish such a platoon within the unit.

18 Q. And would I be correct in saying that in March of 1995, maybe you

19 don't remember March, but that you were visited at some point by the

20 Drinski magazine reporter and they went to visit The Unbreakables and that

21 they made a reporting on you about this unit? You remember that?

22 A. To a certain extent.

23 Q. So can you share with us what this unit was about and what it did

24 and what made it special?

25 A. It was not a special unit at all. It was a unit which was a

1 platoon, a platoon of troops, and in the true sense of the word, that

2 platoon was some sort of a reserve unit that was behind the forward lines

3 of the defence. If a need arose to engage them in combat in the defence

4 sector of the battalion, and the defence sector of the Zvornik Brigade,

5 they would have been used to that purpose.

6 Q. So these were the young guys, the healthy guys, and those that

7 would be used with the tough combat missions; would that be correct?

8 A. At a given moment.

9 Q. Tomorrow, I'll give you the copy in your language and we can share

10 that because this is only to establish that it's something that you,

11 according to this paper that I have, that you took some great pride in,

12 the creation of this unit and the fact that it was involved in difficult

13 situations. Would that be a fair statement?

14 A. That unit assisted everywhere. It was used if one of our

15 positions came under attack. This platoon and platoons similar to this

16 one were used for that purpose.

17 Q. Thank you. A few more personal questions and then we move on to

18 my questions relating to Drago Nikolic. Just to confirm that your house

19 was in the Rocevic area, that has been established already, but it was

20 some 300 metres from the school in Rocevic; is that correct?

21 A. 300 to 500 metres.

22 Q. And most of the soldiers --

23 A. As the crow flies, I apologise.

24 Q. And I was going to say most of the soldiers but a fair amount of

25 soldiers in the 2nd Battalion, they were from Rocevic, even though Rocevic

1 was not in your battalion defence area; is that correct?

2 A. There was no single company that would be composed exclusively of

3 natives of Rocevic but in any case, the 1st Infantry Brigade --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Company , interpreter's correction.

5 A. -- was mostly composed of troops from Rocevic but there were other

6 troops from other villages. In the 2nd Infantry Company, we also had an

7 infantry platoon from Rocevic, and that would be that.

8 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to the -- your knowledge of

9 Drago Nikolic in 1995, which is the first part of my cross-examination

10 today. Yesterday you said, and I quote from page 21, lines 22 and 23, you

11 stated yesterday that the question was, "Did you know an officer named

12 Drago Nikolic?"

13 And your answer was: "Yes."

14 "What was his position at the time?"

15 And he was: "... assistant brigade commander for intelligence and

16 security."

17 Do you recall that giving that answer yesterday?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. I think just as a matter of just as a small correction, you would

20 agree with me that he wasn't assistant commander for both intelligence and

21 security, but just for security. Do you recall that?

22 A. I'm not sure.

23 Q. Is it something you're not aware of or maybe you don't remember?

24 A. I'm not sure that I know that.

25 Q. Okay. Now, when you were asked to describe the relationship, you

1 described it as being "... a fair relationship, the relationship between

2 me and Drago Nikolic, when it came to our cooperation and our duties, we

3 never had any disagreements so it was a fair relationship and a correct

4 relationship."

5 So that's what you said yesterday, and I guess this is also your

6 testimony today?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And you also said that you at times socialised and you gave that

9 information also to my colleague from the Prosecution, that at times you

10 went out and you had drinks with Drago Nikolic.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you remember meeting with the investigator assigned to the

13 Nikolic team? And that was quite recently, and that was, I believe,

14 earlier in June? Do you remember meeting with our investigator?

15 A. Yes. At their request, though.

16 Q. Yes. And I just want to -- because when you met him, the

17 information he provided me with is that, in fact, the relationship between

18 Drago and yourself was more something like and I'll quote his words - you

19 can correct me, if that is correct or not - the witness says that he had

20 an extraordinary relationship with Drago Nikolic, both military and

21 personal. Sorry for my pronunciation.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you agree with that?

24 A. Yes, one might say so.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, my friend is clearly cross-examining

2 with a report of some kind from his investigator. I think we are entitled

3 to see that and have a copy of that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

5 MR. BOURGON: I have information and notes, I'm not going to share

6 my notes with my colleague. Those are notes that I got from my

7 investigator, like we don't have access to their notes, we don't give

8 access to our notes. It's not a statement, it's just a -- and the witness

9 is perfectly free to confirm or not to confirm.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: But he's reading from a document. I'm entitled to

11 see what he's reading from and clearly --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: He's telling you they are his notes.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: They are not his notes. He's said that they are

14 what his investigator wrote down from an interview with a witness.

15 MR. BOURGON: I don't see where my colleague is going with this.

16 This is just information that I have. Someone is pointing to me at

17 Rule 97 here. And that's information that I have received that is

18 privileged.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stop it therefore.

20 MR. BOURGON: I don't see what the problem is. At least he should

21 wait until it's something that's contentious.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stop it there, and we will have some

23 consultations on this. It will only take us a couple of seconds.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We consider such a document as privileged provided--

1 and we take your word for it -- that it is not a statement by the witness

2 when he was interviewed.

3 MR. BOURGON: It is not a statement, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I don't see where the privilege is

6 when it's a witness -- where the witness is discussing something with an

7 investigator. Once it's written down -- of course, our investigators,

8 when they write something down, we turn that into a report and give it to

9 them. If we used investigator's notes in cross-examination, of course

10 they would say, "I'd like to see what" -- if I picked up and said, "All

11 right I'm reading from my investigator's notes," is there any way that

12 wouldn't be shared with them during cross? Would they accept that?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not going to delve into the rights and

14 practices of the Prosecution. I'm just dealing -- we are just dealing at

15 the moment with the issue that you raised, and Rule 70(A) specifically

16 provides that:

17 "Notwithstanding the provisions of Rules 66 and 67, reports,

18 memoranda, or other internal documents prepared by a party, its assistants

19 or representatives in connection with the investigation or preparation of

20 the case, are not subject to disclosure or notification under those

21 Rules."

22 MR. NICHOLLS: I agree with that but when it is read out in court,

23 to be used in cross-examination, I think that changes things. It's no

24 longer anything internal because he's reading it to the entire world.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It still remains his notes. It still remains his

1 notes. So -- let's not waste more time on this. We are taking your word

2 that this is not a statement but it's just notes that were prepared for

3 you by your assistant and please proceed.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Just to be clear I would not want Mr. Bourgon's

5 notes. And maybe we'll file something on this but if the investigator

6 writes down something which a witness has told him and then that is read

7 back to the witness, I think I have a right to see what has been written

8 down by that investigator for completeness. When you use something in

9 cross-examination normally the other side, whatever it is, gets to see it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's proceed.

11 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We have handed down our decision.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed and our ruling is to be understood to

16 refer specifically to the document that you have and the part that you

17 read from it, or that you referred to.

18 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Let's proceed, Mr. Acimovic. As I've mentioned to you when we

20 met, this is the game and they do this regularly so it's -- don't take it

21 personally, please.

22 I just asked you to qualify the idea of the relationship, both

23 military and personal, between yourself and Drago Nikolic. I would like

24 you to confirm that it is your opinion, and at least it was until that

25 time, that Drago Nikolic was a highly professional military officer who

1 was very strict on military rules and that he was not a big talker, he

2 didn't speak much. Is that correct?

3 A. I wouldn't say that he was strict. It is not my call to be the

4 judge of Drago's abilities. I only said that my relationship with him was

5 correct.

6 Q. And would you agree that he was a professional military officer

7 that, he behaved in a professional manner, are you able to qualify that?

8 A. At any rate, I believe that he did his best to perform his duties

9 in a proper manner.

10 Q. Now, just to move immediately into those conversations that you

11 testified you say you had with Drago Nikolic on that night and that

12 morning, well, to begin with, you can confirm that these -- and I believe

13 you said that already, you said it in your statement, that that

14 conversation took place on an open line and that no codes were used for

15 that conversation; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And would I be right in saying that at the time you believed

18 Drago Nikolic was transmitting an order which came from somebody else?

19 A. I believe that at any rate, this was not an order that he

20 personally issued, that he did not order that himself but, rather, that he

21 conveyed somebody else's order, but I repeat I only assumed that that was

22 the case.

23 Q. And that's exactly what I'm simply asking you. And would I be

24 correct in saying that when you -- when you tried to remember back the

25 content of the conversation, you told to the Prosecution on a number of

1 occasions that it is difficult to remember the exact word or details in

2 which this conversation took place? Would you agree with this statement?

3 A. Please can you remind me of that statement of mine? I don't know

4 which one are you referring to. What do you mean?

5 Q. Will do. Let's take, for example, the -- your second interview

6 and we can call this up on e-court, and that is at 3D154, and I'd like to

7 have page 17 to 19 in English and in -- sorry, page 19 in English and page

8 20 in B/C/S. So you can look at this in your language, just to remind you

9 what you told the Prosecution at that time.

10 Okay. I'd like to, if we can just -- we will have the -- here.

11 Now, I'll ask you to look, Mr. Acimovic, at page 20, lines 1 to 3 up

12 there, where it says, "He was not pleased" -- "He was not protesting ...

13 He was not pleased, he raised his voice at me and things like that. But I

14 cannot remember the exact words or details in which this conversation took

15 place."

16 Do you remember saying that to the Prosecution in your second

17 interview? At the top, lines 1 to 3. Were these the words that you used

18 with the Prosecution?

19 A. There is no need for me to consult this document at all. Could

20 you please repeat your question and please be more precise? Tell me what

21 you want me to answer.

22 Q. I'm just saying, Mr. Acimovic, that what you told the Prosecution

23 is simply that it is difficult, looking back, to remember precisely the

24 exact words or details in which this conversation took place.

25 A. This is how the interview evolved. When --

1 Q. I have very limited time and I'm simply asking, is it difficult

2 today to remember the details or do you remember every single detail?

3 Because you said on three different occasions, and I can refer to those,

4 but I'm just trying here to establish something that -- remember things

5 that you said, "I cannot remember the exact words or details in which this

6 conversation took place." Do you remember ever saying that to the

7 Prosecution? Because you've already described that conversation in your

8 examination-in-chief. All I want to know is did you tell the Prosecution?

9 A. Yes, yes, but I've told you that I can't remember every single

10 word, every single comma. These are some details that I don't think are

11 that important.

12 Q. Okay. Let's move on. I'll just say that -- I'll just suggest to

13 you that it was your impression at the time that Drago Nikolic was under

14 pressure and that he had no choice but to pass the order or whatever

15 message he passed to you. Would that be a fair statement?

16 A. At the moment when I talked to Drago, I did not feel that.

17 However, on reflection, since I know what Drago is like, I really gave it

18 a long and hard thought, to try and guess what could have made him put

19 such a pressure on me, especially in light of the fact that my

20 relationship with him had been good, as I've already told you. Also, I

21 would like to emphasise that again I assume, but I only assume, that he

22 did it on somebody else's orders. But I can't be sure of that. This is

23 merely my assumption.

24 Q. And that he was under pressure when relaying those words to you,

25 was he?

1 A. I cannot claim for a fact that he was under pressure. This is

2 just my assumption.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He's answered the question. Let's proceed.

4 MR. BOURGON: I'll proceed, Mr. President.

5 Q. In any event, Mr. Acimovic, would I be correct in saying that you

6 were very surprised to see Drago Nikolic involved into any of this?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And do you think, Mr. Acimovic, that Drago Nikolic was able to

9 issue such an order or would you agree that he had no authority or

10 competence to be able to organise in his own any such action? Would you

11 agree with that?

12 A. I suppose that the operation was not his own initiative, that he

13 did it -- did not do it of his own accord.

14 Q. And we discussed this when we met. Based on your knowledge of

15 what happened, would you agree that Drago Nikolic was a small player and

16 no more than a pawn in those events?

17 A. I suppose that he wasn't in a position to plan all that on his

18 own. I only assume that he acted on somebody's orders.

19 Q. And you mentioned to me when we met, Mr. Acimovic, that it was

20 your impression that Drago Nikolic had been misused at the time. Can you

21 comment on that?

22 A. I think that whoever participated in all of this was misused.

23 Q. Can you elaborate with respect to Drago Nikolic? I'm just

24 referring to our conversation. I don't want to put it to you. I just

25 want you to repeat what you told me.

1 A. This conversation took place in this context.

2 Q. Okay. We'll move on. After the phone call that you say you had

3 with Drago Nikolic on that morning, and you said it was something around

4 7.00, would I be right in saying that after that you had no more dealings

5 with Drago Nikolic concerning those events?

6 A. You said at 7.00 a.m.?

7 Q. After 7.00 a.m.

8 A. After that morning's conversation, I wasn't in touch with Drago in

9 any way whatsoever.

10 Q. And in -- at any time when you went in -- when were you in

11 Rocevic, you never saw Drago Nikolic there; would that be a fair

12 statement?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, you mentioned in response to a question from my colleague

15 that you discussed these events with Trbic at some point. And my question

16 is that you never discussed these events with Drago Nikolic, did you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the meeting which was referred to by my colleague, Mr.

19 Zivanovic, later on in the month, you can confirm that Drago Nikolic was

20 present; is that correct?

21 A. I cannot confirm, but I suppose he was there.

22 Q. But you did not discuss these events at that time with him?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Let me move on to a different area of my cross-examination, and

25 again, this is all material that we've discussed and I took it from your

1 statements. And I would first suggest to you that keeping prisoners in

2 the school in the village of Rocevic was a dangerous thing to do because

3 there were no soldiers in the village and no one was armed to defend the

4 population there. Would that be correct?

5 A. In any case, a school is not a facility where one should keep

6 prisoners.

7 Q. Well, I beg to disagree with you on this but that's not the issue

8 of my question. So let's get to my question. My question is simply in

9 that context, and you've testified at length about the context, in the

10 military situation, and at that particular moment, to put prisoners in the

11 school in Rocevic, in the context at the time, that was a dangerous thing

12 to do. Would you agree?

13 A. With the soldiers that were there, yes.

14 Q. And I believe you may have mentioned this -- I don't have the

15 exact reference in your testimony but I have the reference in your first

16 interview -- where you mentioned that soldiers in the trenches, your

17 soldiers on the front line, they learned about Rocevic and they were ready

18 to leave the front line, which would have been a disaster. Do you agree

19 with that?

20 A. They heard about this woman being wounded, and about the behaviour

21 of the soldiers who were down there.

22 Q. And it would have been a disaster had they decided to leave the

23 front line?

24 A. Of course. But I don't think that that could have happened

25 without my knowledge.

1 Q. Now, the -- would you agree with me that anyone in the -- in

2 Zvornik Brigade at that time was fully aware of the difficulty of the

3 situation on the front line at that particular moment?

4 A. Could you please repeat your question?

5 Q. I'll try and make it more precise. You yourself knew that a

6 column was approaching and that there was a risk of attack. Did you know

7 that?

8 A. We received telegrams to that effect.

9 Q. And would you agree with me that anybody on the front line, all of

10 the battalions, would be aware of that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And such information was disseminated to the battalion by the

13 brigade command. Would that be a fair statement?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. So would you agree with me that the Zvornik Brigade itself, in

16 those circumstances, would never have instigated, planned or ordered such

17 a risky and dangerous move of putting prisoners in the schools?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I'll move to another segment of my cross-examination. And I just

20 want at this time to go over with you some members of your battalion and

21 to see where they were in July of 1995 during those events that you

22 testified about.

23 So if we begin by Vujo Lazarevic, he was your assistant commander

24 for morale and religious affairs; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. And on that night, he was the duty officer?

2 A. No. I think it was Mitar Lazarevic. That's another person.

3 Q. You're right to point this out because yesterday you said

4 Vujo Lazarevic was the duty officer and today you said Mitar Lazarevic was

5 the duty officer. I know two different persons but which one was the

6 officer between the two?

7 A. I said that I think that Mitar Lazarevic was the duty officer but

8 I'm not sure.

9 Q. So the two were present, and they were on duty that night?

10 A. No. One of them was on duty, and I said that I think that it was

11 Mitar Lazarevic.

12 Q. And the other person, Vujo, was present. What was he doing there

13 during the night, if he wasn't on duty?

14 A. We in the battalion command were billeted there as well, only one

15 floor above. That means that the room where the duty officer was had two

16 or three beds, where officers from the battalion command would sleep.

17 Q. And that's exactly the reason why I asked these questions, to

18 allow the Trial Chamber to understand exactly how the battalion command,

19 where it was, how it worked, and I have a couple of questions for that.

20 But just to go back to Mitar Lazarevic, which is the second one on my

21 list, you've already said that he was the person responsible for general

22 affairs; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Now, Mitar was not an officer, was he?

25 A. None of my assistants were officers.

1 Q. Now, the post of clerk for general affairs or person responsible

2 for general affairs, is that a post normally held by an officer? Is that

3 an officer post? Or is that a clerk position?

4 A. An officer should hold this position, but since this was a desk

5 officer in charge of general affairs, as you can see for yourself, we had

6 privates discharging these duties.

7 Q. Okay. And Vujo, what rank was he? Vujo Lazarevic.

8 A. He had no rank.

9 Q. No rank. So they were both ordinary soldiers?

10 A. Privates.

11 Q. But in occupying the roles of assistant commander with your

12 battalion?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. I move on quickly to Stevan Savic. He was your deputy

15 commander and he was absent from your battalion at the time; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And Milorad Sakotic he was your assistant commander for security

19 and he was also absent in Trnovo at that time; is that correct?

20 A. I suppose that he was in Trnovo.

21 Q. Do you have any other information that he was anywhere else?

22 A. No. A group of soldiers was at the time involved in carrying out

23 combat missions in that area but I'm not sure whether it was Trnovo or

24 some other location.

25 Q. So he was away. You had sent him on some kind of mission away

1 from the command at that time; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That's all I'm trying to get it.

4 A. [No interpretation]

5 Q. Zivojin Pisic, he was your quartermaster; is that correct?

6 A. Assistant commander for logistics, Zivan Pisic.

7 Q. That's just a mistake with my language because I happened to be a

8 quartermaster and assistant commander for logistics before myself. So

9 there are moving on to this man, you changed the first name, I thought it

10 was Zivojin but you gave me a different name, Zivan Pisic. He worked in

11 the command with you; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And would I be correct in saying that you had a number of radio

14 operators working in the command also?

15 A. I wouldn't agree that there was a large number.

16 Q. Well, we'll go through the list just to confirm whether these

17 people are your radio operator or communications people. Miodrag Pisic,

18 he was one of them?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And Dragan Stevanovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Goran Ilic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And Milisav Cvijetinovic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, can you just at this point -- maybe we can for the benefit of

2 the Trial Chamber, where did these people work physically?

3 A. You mean where they were deployed or situated? Not far from the

4 battalion command, some 40 metres.

5 Q. Now, I move on to -- you had a cook with the battalion command,

6 that was Milan Jovic; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And were there any other persons that you may remember that I may

9 have missed that were working in the battalion command?

10 A. There were probably more people there, but I'm not claiming that

11 all that you have named here were present. Also, from those

12 communications officers that you mentioned, I also cannot say that whether

13 all of them were present or only some of them were present. The same also

14 applies to the cooks.

15 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was those are persons

16 working in the command, they are assigned to the command of the

17 2nd Battalion, that was the only purpose of my question.

18 A. Yes. They were members of the battalion, of course.

19 Q. Did you have -- were there any persons for the security of the

20 command?

21 A. In what way? Are you referring to the military police and things

22 like that?

23 Q. Anybody who would ensure the physical protection of the battalion

24 command, other than the people we spoke about.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, I just -- may we go into private session, Mr. President?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a short

3 while, please.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.

19 MR. BOURGON:

20 Q. Now, I'm just curious. You mentioned Goran Radic. Was he present

21 in July 1995 or during these events, was he present?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did he -- but I take it he did not drive you when you went to

24 Rocevic school or --

25 A. No, he didn't.

1 Q. And why is this so?

2 A. Most definitely not. It is possible that he was among the

3 soldiers who were outside the defence area of the battalion but I'm not

4 sure. But in many other cases, and other situations, I drove the car

5 myself, when I went home and things like that.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Acimovic. My next section is that I would just

7 like to discuss a bit of well, the company commanders, you've mentioned

8 all the company commanders already but let's just confirm that and then

9 I'll be -- I think that will be it for me for today. First company was

10 Dragan Stjepanovic, you said that already; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who was his deputy?

13 A. Mico Savic.

14 Q. And 2nd Company was Miroslav Stankovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who was his deputy?

17 A. Risto Milosevic.

18 Q. And the 3rd Company was Milan Radic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I take it that his deputy was Petko Tomic?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I'm moving to a different area. I

23 think the Trial Chamber requested five minutes. I would prefer to stop

24 here, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. It's fine with us.

1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. Acimovic, and we'll see you in the

2 morning.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. I think the witness can

4 leave the courtroom. Mr. Acimovic, same advisory as yesterday. Please no

5 communication with anyone on the subject matter of your testimony.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic?

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. There's two

10 points I'd like to raise. One, today in the transcript of this witness,

11 on page 40, line 2, and I had a discussion with my learned friend - I'm

12 not sure if it was a translation problem or not, the witness specifically

13 testified that he spoke to all Defence teams. And I think my learned

14 friend will agree that, even during our discussion yesterday, the Beara

15 Defence team did not at any time meet with this witness. And I believe my

16 friend agrees with that, because he has inquired with this witness prior

17 to him taking the oath with whom he met, so I just wanted that to be

18 clarified, not to waste time. I guess he's standing and I'll just stop.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: That's correct. I took that as the witness saying,

20 "I met with everybody who wanted to meet with me," and the Beara team was

21 not amongst those.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken, and it goes on record. The second

23 point?

24 MR. OSTOJIC: The second point was the Court's request on the

25 progress on the aerial images. We have discussed that at length and on

1 multiple occasions and we are coming closer. We are waiting to get some

2 other verification from the actual source of those images, and we think we

3 can get it to the Court, a final determination on whether we need to

4 continue to discuss that in the next week to 10 days. But we are actually

5 meeting on that issue and we have met on numerous occasions on that, and

6 we seem to be getting closer on the information that we feel is required

7 and necessary. So I just wanted to advise the Court on that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. The important thing is that

9 something is being done and you haven't put it in deep freeze, in other

10 words. Yes, Mr. McCloskey? Thank you, Mr. Ostojic. Mr. McCloskey?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That's correct, Mr. President, and also on

12 the issue of -- Mr. Vanderpuye has informed me that he has finished his

13 proofing and is not planning on seeing the person again, though he would

14 like to have the ability to do that, of course. And so we really,

15 hopefully, we don't have an issue and I would like to avoid controversy if

16 possible. However, this is an issue we feel strongly about, that these

17 sorts of orders that are being requested are inappropriate so, perhaps

18 some time we need to deal with it but at this point, it doesn't look like

19 it's a problem.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I suppose you also -- it's the case of

21 waiting for our Obrenovic decision as well, because it might give you an

22 indication of where we stand on such issues.

23 All right. Perhaps we will have a second verification of that

24 tomorrow, Mr. McCloskey, and then we will ask Mr. Bourgon what position he

25 will be taking. We'll deal with it tomorrow. Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

1 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, just to inform the Trial Chamber, I

2 had estimated two hours for this witness. I've already taken one hour. I

3 will require more time tomorrow in light of the testimony. I would say

4 probably two hours, maybe a little more but I'll try to cut it down. My

5 aim is to finish in one session. Not sure I'll be able to.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. We will use our discretion, of course,

7 Mr. Bourgon, but we believe that we use it right.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Any more estimates while we've got everybody so I

9 can --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I had asked -- you were here, no? The Beara

11 team.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sometimes things change.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The Beara team asked for 45 minutes, probably will

14 be less. And then we have the Pandurevic team 30 minutes at the most,

15 between 20 and 30. The others, I don't think there is a change in

16 position, unless I hear statements to the contrary. I see Madam Fauveau

17 is not requiring, Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Josse the same.

18 So basically we have another two hours from Mr. Bourgon, roughly,

19 and then Mr. Meek will kindly break the news to us tomorrow morning after

20 a whole night of deep thinking on the subject. Thank you. We stand

21 adjourned until tomorrow.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day of June,

24 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

25