Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13451

1 Thursday, 28 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody. Good morning, Madam

6 Registrar. Could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci, Madam. From the Defence teams I notice the

10 absence of Mr. Haynes and Mr. Meek. The Prosecution, I recognise the

11 presence of Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer. That's it. I think there are

12 some preliminaries. Yes, Mr. Thayer? We are all ears.

13 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, good

14 morning, everyone. I was advised by my friend Mr. Zivanovic this morning

15 that there was a tendering issue with respect to an item that came in

16 through -- or that was tendered through a prior witness the Exhibit

17 number's P0295, it is a working vehicle log. Two pages had originally

18 been tendered by the Nikolic team, I believe, in connection with the

19 testimony of PW 101. Two separate pages were tendered by the Popovic team

20 more recently and Mr. Nicholls tendered a couple of pages through his

21 witness.

22 The document is 604 pages long. Tendering bits and pieces I

23 understand has created some difficulty with our friends in the Registry.

24 What I would propose is that we mark for identification the entire 600

25 page document, which has been translated in full already, which I think

Page 13452

1 makes all the difference in the world for everyone. We may continue to

2 refer to it and refer to particular pages but given the fact that it's

3 translated I don't anticipate any objections from my friends. I would

4 suggest we tender it in its entirety at this time.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the position of the Defence teams on this?

6 Mr. Zivanovic, Mr. Bourgon? You are the two who have made use of it.

7 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, we used two pages of this document, Your

9 Honour, and we would like to tender these two pages, we sent a list about

10 it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But do you oppose the Prosecution

12 suggestion?


14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Bourgon?

15 MR. BOURGON: No, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So as I understand it, we had two pages

17 introduced already by you, Mr. Bourgon, or by your team?

18 MR. BOURGON: I believe there were more than two pages but --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: More than two pages, all right. So there are two

20 pages which are now being sought to be tendered by Mr. Zivanovic. Those

21 would be admitted. But the whole document will be marked for

22 identification for the time being, and then we'll see what we need.

23 The suggestion is to have it marked for identification.

24 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I misspoke. I would suggest that we

25 just admit the whole document in its entirety since it's been translated.

Page 13453

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That makes more sense because in actual

2 fact my reaction was going to be while you were talking, first, whether

3 there is a translation issue which obviously there isn't, and secondly,

4 whether there is a need for to have a 600-page document admitted if there

5 are only a few pages that you are relying upon. So it did make sense for

6 some time to have it marked for identification and then the relative

7 pages, but if there is consensus on having the whole document admitted

8 straight away on the assumption that it's going to be made use of further,

9 later on, then I think that's the best way to go about it.

10 Agreed, Mr. Bourgon?

11 MR. BOURGON: Yes, Mr. President, we do agree.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I appreciate that, Mr. Bourgon.

13 Mr. Zivanovic?

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, we agree also.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Sarapa?

16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] There are four pages, those are

17 travel orders, we have already agreed to several of them. I don't think

18 there is any reason at this moment not to accept them, not to admit them

19 as one document because they all have their numbers. And the Prosecution

20 will certainly use all the pages, and they can be admitted as an exhibit.

21 I do not share therefore the view of my colleagues and take a separate

22 position.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The number of pages

24 is 604.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So yes, Mr. Thayer?

Page 13454

1 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I may be mistaken but I think the

2 documents to which my friend is referring to is a separate group of

3 documents.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It is another group of documents. I mean, I didn't

5 want to say that. I thought he would bring it out yourself.

6 So we have no problems with this document. It is admitted.

7 MR. THAYER: While I'm standing on this general topic,

8 Mr. President, we are close to completing the complete translation of the

9 duty officer notebook. I think the aim from our team translator was to

10 have it completed by tomorrow. I think she's on schedule. I will let my

11 friends know as soon as it's completed. But we are close.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's nice music to our ears and I think also to

13 Mr. Sarapa and Mr. Haynes. Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa?

16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Just a little mistake in line 3 on

17 page 3, line 15. It says four pages but it's actually 604.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it was corrected in lines 22 and 23.

19 Yes. Anything else? Any preliminary matters? None. So let's

20 bring in the next witness -- yes, Mr. Thayer?

21 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I believe this witness could use a

22 caution from the Court.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And he has -- there are no protective

24 measures to my knowledge, is there?

25 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President.

Page 13455


2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You're about to start

6 giving evidence. And before doing so, you're required to make a solemn

7 declaration that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the

8 truth. Madam Usher is going to hand you the text of the solemn

9 declaration. Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn

10 undertaking with us.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable.

16 Take a seat.

17 Mr. Thayer is about to start firing his questions at you. He will

18 then be followed by the various Defence teams on cross-examination. But

19 before you start giving evidence, I've been asked to alert you to a right

20 that you enjoy under our rules, namely the right not to be forced to

21 incriminate yourself. This is a right that you enjoy, as I said, but it

22 is not an absolute right so I need to explain to you what the position is.

23 It's not to be excluded that you could be asked questions which,

24 if you answer, could tend to incriminate you. I'm not saying that this

25 will be the case but it could be the case. In such a case, you have a

Page 13456

1 right to stop before giving your answer and ask the Trial Chamber to

2 exempt you from answering such incriminatory questions. We will hear what

3 you have to say and then we will decide whether to exempt you from

4 answering such questions or whether to compel you to answer such a

5 question. If we exempt you, then obviously you don't answer that

6 question. If we compel you to answer that question, then you need to

7 answer that question truthfully pursuant to the oath, to the solemn

8 undertaking that you've taken today. If you are so compelled, however,

9 you enjoy a further right under our rules, namely that whatever you state

10 in answering such incriminatory questions will not be made use of as

11 evidence against you in any subsequent proceedings, except if the

12 proceedings arise out of you giving false testimony.

13 Is that -- have I explained it clear enough to you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And were you made aware of such right before you

16 came into this courtroom?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can safely proceed. Mr. Thayer, he's in your

19 hands.

20 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Examination by Mr. Thayer:

22 Q. Good morning, sir.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. Would you please state your name for the record.

25 A. Predrag Celic.

Page 13457

1 Q. How old are you, sir?

2 A. 33, going on 34.

3 Q. Where were you born and raised?

4 A. I was born in Sekovici and grew up in a place called Jakovica,

5 next door to Sekovici.

6 Q. And you identify yourself as a Bosnian Serb; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, how you're currently

9 employed?

10 A. I'm a member of the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska.

11 I work in the public security centre of Bijeljina in a support unit

12 located in Zvornik.

13 Q. And what kind of work do you do in that unit, sir?

14 A. We provide security escort, we do arrests, we provide security at

15 football matches, and other work which does not fall within regular police

16 work.

17 Q. And how long have you been doing that job, approximately?

18 A. Since 2000 I've been in that unit.

19 Q. And prior to that, how were you employed?

20 A. Before that, I was a member of the Special Police Brigade, the

21 2nd Sekovici Detachment.

22 Q. And we'll talk about that detachment in a moment, sir. What I

23 want to do right now is briefly review with you your service history

24 during the war and I'll just summarise it very briefly, if I could. Just

25 correct anything I may get wrong. After completing your military service,

Page 13458

1 you served as a member of the Intervention Platoon in the Sekovici Brigade

2 which was headquartered in Trnovo; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And May 12th of 1993 you joined the 2nd Sekovici Detachment of the

5 Special Police Brigade which you just referred to; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where was the 2nd Sekovici Detachment headquartered?

8 A. The command of the 2nd Detachment of Sekovici was based in the

9 hotel in Sekovici. The name of the hotel is Lovnica.

10 Q. And just generally, sir, where is Sekovici geographically located

11 in relation to the Srebrenica opstina, north, south, east or west?

12 A. I can't tell exactly. I think -- I think west.

13 Q. Okay. In July of 1995, who commanded the 2nd Sekovici Detachment?

14 A. In July 1995, the commander of the detachment was Rade Cuturic,

15 nicknamed Oficir, Officer.

16 Q. I'm looking at my transcript, sir, and it looks like it didn't

17 pick up the last name of this individual named Oficir, could you repeat

18 his last name, please?

19 A. Rade Cuturic.

20 Q. It also looks like it didn't pick up the nickname. What was

21 Mr. Cuturic's nickname?

22 A. Oficir -- O-f-i-c-i-r.

23 Q. And what was Mr. Cuturic's actual position in the detachment, sir?

24 A. Well, he was commander of the detachment.

25 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a slightly different question. Prior to

Page 13459

1 Mr. Cuturic taking command of the detachment in about July of 1995, who

2 was in command of the detachment?

3 A. Before Rade Cuturic, there was Miso Stupar as commander of the

4 detachment.

5 Q. And do you know approximately when Mr. Cuturic took over from

6 Mr. Stupar as commander?

7 A. I think it was in June, when we were sent out into the field to

8 Sarajevo, Rade Cuturic accompanied us on that mission.

9 Q. And when Mr. Stupar was the commander of your detachment, what was

10 Mr. Cuturic's position when Mr. Stupar was in command?

11 A. He was the deputy, I suppose.

12 Q. Do you suppose, sir, or do you know from your experience and

13 recollection that that was in fact the case?

14 A. That was the case.

15 Q. And in June of 1995, when Mr. Stupar was in command of your

16 detachment, who was his immediate superior commander?

17 A. The immediate superior was the commander of the brigade of the

18 Special Police, Goran Saric, and his deputy Ljubisa Borovcanin.

19 Q. In July of 1995, sir, approximately how many infantry soldiers did

20 the Sekovici Detachment have? And I mean active.

21 A. There were three platoons of infantry. The 1st, the 2nd and the

22 3rd platoon.

23 Q. Okay. Now -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

24 A. And there was also a logistics platoon on top of that.

25 Q. And in July of 1995, in total, how many infantry soldiers did

Page 13460

1 those three platoons add up to, just approximately, if you can give the

2 Court an idea?

3 A. Infantry? In July?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Three platoons, adding up to around 40 men.

6 Q. Do you recall who the commander of the 1st Platoon was in July of

7 1995?

8 A. I'm not sure. I believe it was Marko Aleksic.

9 Q. And how about the 2nd Platoon, sir? In July of 1995, who was the

10 commander?

11 A. The commander of the 2nd Platoon in July 1995 -- how shall I put

12 it? We were in Sarajevo, in the field, and the commander,

13 Velimir Kitaljevic was wounded there, before the arrival in the area of

14 Srebrenica and Bratunac.

15 Q. So is it fair to say that the 2nd Platoon did not have an actual

16 commander?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what platoon were you in, sir?

19 A. The 2nd Platoon.

20 Q. And who was the commander of the 3rd Sekovici Platoon?

21 A. The commander of the 3rd Platoon, which hailed from Skelani, was

22 Milenko Trifunovic, also known as Cop.

23 Q. And was that 3rd platoon also known as the Skelani platoon, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, given that your 2nd Platoon leader had been injured, from

Page 13461

1 whom would your platoon typically receive its orders in June and July of

2 1995?

3 A. From the detachment commander, Rade Cuturic.

4 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the types of equipment and

5 uniforms that you wore in your detachment. Can you tell the Trial Chamber

6 what types of mechanised weaponry your detachment had?

7 A. We had a Praga, two tanks, and we also had a three-barrelled

8 piece.

9 Q. And what was the model of the tank? Do you know the name?

10 A. T-55.

11 Q. And the three-barrelled piece, is that also known as a BOV or a

12 B-O-V?

13 A. That was an armoured vehicle, a BOV, a three-barrelled piece.

14 Q. Okay. And would this mechanised weaponry typically accompany your

15 detachment when it was deployed on an operation, sir?

16 A. It depended on the situation. Sometimes they would, sometimes

17 they wouldn't.

18 Q. Did you also have mortar support?

19 A. We did.

20 Q. And you personally, sir, were you issued any type of weapon in

21 particular?

22 A. I had an M-84 machine-gun. This is what I was issued with in the

23 detachment.

24 Q. And what type of rifle was the average member of your detachment

25 issued, sir?

Page 13462

1 A. Automatic rifles, they had.

2 Q. And did you carry hand grenades, sir?

3 A. Some did, some didn't.

4 Q. And how about you personally? Was that a part of your standard

5 equipment?

6 A. One, two perhaps.

7 Q. And can you describe the uniform that your detachment wore, for

8 the Trial Chamber, please?

9 A. Please repeat your question.

10 Q. Can you please describe the uniform that your detachment wore?

11 What did it look like? What did it consist of? Colour?

12 A. We had camouflage overalls. There were also two-piece uniforms.

13 As far as I can remember, on the left shoulder we had a patch featuring

14 the words "Special Brigade" and beneath it, "The police" and the patch

15 featured a number and in the middle, there was a flag with the coat of

16 arms featuring a two-headed eagle.

17 Q. Now, during the war, sir, what was the general nature of your

18 detachment's assignments?

19 A. During the war, we were mostly engaged in combat assignments.

20 Q. Now, you were a police detachment but in terms of your command

21 structure and operation, was it civilian or military in nature?

22 A. We were attached to the Special Brigade of the police.

23 Q. Okay. Well, can you describe in general how orders were

24 communicated down the chain of command in your organisation?

25 A. Are you referring to the Ministry of the Interior?

Page 13463

1 Q. Well, within your Special Police Brigade?

2 A. It was the brigade commander who issued orders. Next down in the

3 chain was the deputy, and then the order would travel down to the

4 detachment commanders. As far as I know, or at least that's how things

5 should have been.

6 Q. And in your experience, was that how the Special Police Brigade

7 operated, sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I want to turn your attention to July, specifically, of 1995.

10 Actually, let me back up. I want to focus your attention first on June,

11 and into July. Where was your platoon deployed in June of 1995, sir?

12 A. In June 1995, as I've already told you, we were in Sarajevo, near

13 the so-called Srednji part of the Sarajevo theatre of war.

14 Q. And what were you doing there, sir?

15 A. There, we were trying to regain a defence line that had fallen

16 near the settlement of Srednji.

17 Q. And were you ordered to pull out of that area for some reason?

18 A. We were told to withdraw.

19 Q. Do you remember when you were told to withdraw, what the date was?

20 A. It was in the evening, on the 11th, around 8.00 or 9.00 in the

21 evening. I can't exactly -- it was between 7.00 and 9.00 in the evening

22 anyway.

23 Q. Just to be clear, sir, this is the 11th of July; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So where did you go, sir, from Srednji?

Page 13464

1 A. We arrived in the area of Bratunac.

2 Q. Do you remember whether that area had a particular name? And can

3 you describe where it was approximately in relation to Bratunac?

4 A. We arrived in a school in Bjelovac. This is where we were

5 billeted.

6 Q. And do you recall who informed your platoon that it was going to

7 be pulled back and redeployed?

8 A. The entire unit was pulled out. It was the detachment commander

9 who issued that order.

10 Q. And when you arrived and then settled in in Bjelovac, do you

11 recall whether your 2nd Platoon only was there or were you joined by the

12 other two Sekovici platoons on the night of the 11th?

13 A. We were all there, I believe.

14 Q. And do you recall whether any other Special Police Brigade

15 detachments arrived at that location in Bjelovac? For example, specific

16 detachments or elements from the Jahorina training centre? Do you know

17 whether any of those forces also arrived in Bjelovac?

18 A. As for the Special Police, I don't know whether anybody from the

19 brigade was there, in addition to us. But there were some other people

20 there.

21 Q. And when you say "other people", sir, are you referring to MUP

22 forces or some other forces or can you not recall?

23 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

24 Q. All right. I want to turn your attention to the morning of 12

25 July, sir. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you did?

Page 13465

1 A. In the morning of the 12th of July, maybe around 8.00 or 9.00 in

2 the morning, we set out from Bratunac in the direction of Srebrenica. We

3 arrived at the Yellow Bridge where the road forks off towards the right.

4 This is where we turned right towards a place which I believe is called

5 Budak. That's where we were deployed and stayed there for a while.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Lazarevic?

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's an issue of translation, I believe. Here on

8 page 15, line 4, it says, "We arrived at the Yellow Bridge where the road

9 forks off toward the right." The witness I believe said something else.

10 He didn't say that the road forks to the right but he said we forked to

11 the right.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you followed that, Mr. Celic?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you agree with what Mr. Lazarevic has just

15 corrected in the transcript?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We turned right.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. Mr. Thayer?

18 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. I thank my friend.

19 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to resume your narrative. Before that,

20 though, how did you arrive? How were you transported to this location?

21 What types of vehicle or vehicles did you take?

22 A. Most of us were transported by a Dubrava bus.

23 Q. And that bus, sir, was that a detachment bus, an official

24 detachment vehicle?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13466

1 Q. So you arrive at this position, you turned right towards a place

2 that you recalled being called Budak. What did you do when you arrived at

3 this position, sir?

4 A. This is where we were deployed in a line, and if needed, we were

5 supposed to scour the terrain.

6 Q. And do you recall who communicated that assignment to your

7 platoon?

8 A. We were told by the commander before we left where we were going,

9 why we were going there, and what our mission was.

10 Q. And were you given any instructions as to what to do if you

11 encountered anybody while you were deployed there?

12 A. In case we encountered a civilian, we would have to keep that

13 person, we would have to call our superior officers, and what they would

14 do, I don't know. I'm talking about civilians here.

15 Q. And how about if the person was not or did not appear to be a

16 civilian, sir? Were your instructions any different?

17 A. If any such person had weapons and opened fire at us, then we

18 would open fire in return.

19 Q. Understood. Now, if an armed person surrendered, were your

20 instructions any different than what they were with respect to the

21 civilians?

22 A. The same. That person would have been handed over to our superior

23 and with that, my part of the job would end.

24 Q. You testified that you established a line in case you had to

25 conduct a search. Did you, in fact, have to conduct such a search, sir?

Page 13467

1 A. No.

2 Q. At your position, do you recall seeing any other police or army

3 units there where you were?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. And from your position, sir, what if anything could you see of the

6 village of Potocari or the UN base?

7 A. From that place, one could see things down there.

8 Q. And what did you see, sir?

9 A. I could see that there were a lot of people there, and some

10 facilities as well.

11 Q. Did you see both civilians and people who appeared to you to be

12 soldiers, sir?

13 A. I'm saying that I saw people, but this was not close enough for me

14 to tell exactly who they were. There may have been men in uniform among

15 them, I suppose.

16 Q. Okay. Did you move from your position that morning, other than

17 leaving eventually?

18 A. We left that position and went down to the road. After a certain

19 while we withdrew from that area and we arrived in the direction of

20 Bratunac and from there, we went towards Konjevic Polje. We went in the

21 direction of Konjevic Polje, rather.

22 Q. Okay. And before we get to that next stage, sir, I just want to

23 ask you a couple of questions about the time you were near Potocari. Did

24 you actually come across anyone while you were at your position in Budak?

25 A. While I was on position, I did not come across anybody.

Page 13468

1 Q. And approximately how long or how many hours do you recall being

2 in that position?

3 A. Maybe an hour or two hours.

4 Q. You just indicated that you were travelling in the direction of

5 Konjevic Polje and would that have been on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje

6 road, sir?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you stop anywhere?

9 A. Yes. In the vicinity of Kravica.

10 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of the day this was, when

11 you stopped?

12 A. It was in the afternoon.

13 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber what you did when you stopped

14 in the area of Kravica?

15 A. I don't know when, but after a certain time we were deployed on

16 that road from Sandici towards Kravica.

17 Q. And what was your assignment at that point?

18 A. The assignment was to secure the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, and

19 to protect the villages that were around it, Kravica and others.

20 Q. And, sir, secure and protect from whom or from what in particular?

21 A. From the people who were moving through the forest. These people

22 had left the area of Srebrenica or were leaving the area of Srebrenica,

23 and as it turned out later on, they were headed for Tuzla.

24 Q. Can you estimate approximately what length of this road your

25 platoon was responsible for securing?

Page 13469

1 A. You mean the detachment?

2 Q. No, actually I specifically mean your platoon. Can you estimate

3 what length of the road your platoon was responsible for securing?

4 A. Well, since we were relatively few, we didn't cover a great

5 length.

6 Q. And whatever that length was on the road, sir, where you and your

7 platoon were deployed, can you describe where that section of the road was

8 in relation to Kravica and Sandici?

9 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I didn't quite understand

10 it. I'm sorry.

11 Q. Sure. The location where you and your platoon were deployed, was

12 it closer to Kravica or was it closer to Sandici?

13 A. Perhaps closer to Sandici. It was closer to Sandici than to

14 Kravica.

15 Q. And who ordered you and your platoon to deploy along that

16 particular portion of the road?

17 A. It was the order of the detachment commander.

18 Q. Now, as you head --

19 A. As we deployed from Sandici on, and we stopped at certain points

20 and deployed there.

21 Q. Okay. Now, as you head in the direction of Konjevic Polje from

22 your location, which platoon was closest to yours, as you were heading

23 towards Sandici and Konjevic Polje?

24 A. The 1st Platoon.

25 Q. Do you know where the 3rd Platoon was deployed, sir?

Page 13470

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Now, physically, how were you and your fellow platoon members

3 deployed along your section of that road?

4 A. We were deployed in groups of two or three men so that we can see

5 each other.

6 Q. And was there any type of feature or structure where you were

7 positioned, sir?

8 A. There was one house at the point where I was standing.

9 Q. And what was the distance approximately of that house to the road?

10 A. 40 to 50 metres to the left on the side of the road, if you are

11 looking from Kravica towards Sandici.

12 Q. Do you recall the names of any of your 2nd Platoon colleagues who

13 were near your position?

14 A. You mean the men who were with me?

15 Q. Correct.

16 A. At that house, Brano Dzinic was with me, Zoran Tomic, nicknamed

17 Zgembo, and Slobodan Stjepanovic, nicknamed Sule.

18 Q. And do you recall the names of any of your other colleagues who

19 may have been on your left or your right?

20 A. On my left there were Milenko Pepic and Ljubisa Becarevic. And

21 also Mile Bojanic.

22 Q. And were you aware of any other police or VRS forces being

23 deployed along the road, not necessarily at your position but in the area

24 of Kravica through Sandici and along that portion towards Konjevic Polje?

25 A. Yes. There were.

Page 13471

1 Q. And do you recall specifically any units by name that were

2 deployed there, other than your detachment?

3 A. I know that in the area from Sandici towards Konjevic Polje, there

4 was the 1st Company of the police. I don't know about other units. I

5 don't know which units they were.

6 Q. Now, going in the other direction, sir, towards Bratunac, did you

7 ever see the structure that is sometimes referred to as the agricultural

8 hangar or warehouse at Kravica?

9 A. I hadn't passed through before, so when we arrived I saw that

10 structure and after a while I found out it was an agricultural cooperative

11 located to the left of the road, if you're going from Bratunac towards

12 Sandici.

13 Q. And can you estimate approximately how far that warehouse was from

14 your location in the house where you were positioned?

15 A. Around 600 metres.

16 Q. Do you know which units, if any, were deployed in front of that

17 facility?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. And which 2nd Sekovici Detachment platoon was deployed closest to

20 that warehouse, sir?

21 A. I described the location where I was. The men from my platoon who

22 were to the left of me were next, the 1st Platoon was to the right. I

23 really don't know where the Skelani platoon was. But then the 2nd Platoon

24 must have been the closest to my location, and those colleagues from the

25 same platoon.

Page 13472

1 Q. Did you spend the night of 12 July in that house, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That brings us to the 13th. Did you receive any information on

4 the 13th of any incidents that occurred during the night of the 12th along

5 that road between Kravica and Sandici?

6 A. I heard, I don't know from whom, that one member of the

7 1st Company of the police had gotten killed up there near Sandici.

8 Q. And did you hear how that police officer had been killed?

9 A. Well, rumour had it that a grenade had been thrown and the man got

10 killed.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Again, it's a translation issue. It's on page 22,

13 line 2, the answer of the witness as it is recorded here says, "But then

14 the 2nd Platoon must have been the closest to my location" and if I

15 remember correctly, the witness said, it was closest to the location of

16 the warehouse.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you agree to that, Mr. Celic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

20 MR. THAYER: I thank my friend.

21 Q. Now, when you referred to the 1st Company of the police, and

22 forgive me if I asked you this before, I just can't recall, that

23 1st Company was attached to what unit or entity, sir?

24 A. The 1st Police Company belonged to the then-public security centre

25 of Zvornik.

Page 13473

1 Q. And did you remain in your position at that house during the day

2 on the 13th, sir?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And did any of your commanders come by that day to check on your

5 positions and deployment?

6 A. Well, the detachment commander passed by.

7 Q. And during these two days, the 12th and the 13th, did he do that

8 more than once?

9 A. Several times, I suppose, as long as we were there in that area,

10 and he toured that terrain.

11 Q. And what was he doing as he was touring the terrain?

12 A. He kept an eye on where we were, he warned us to take cover so

13 that nobody would be killed, things like that. He told us to hold on and

14 that we would be withdrawing soon because we had already been in the field

15 around Sarajevo or in Sarajevo for a long time.

16 Q. And what kind of communication equipment was Mr. Cuturic and other

17 commanders using during this time, sir?

18 A. Motorolas, as far as I know.

19 Q. And do you recall who was issued those Motorolas, who was using

20 them?

21 A. The detachment commander, platoon commanders, the men on combat

22 vehicles and such.

23 Q. And during these two days, sir, to the best of your recollection,

24 from whom was Mr. Cuturic receiving his orders?

25 A. Well, I suppose Mr. Cuturic received orders from his superior,

Page 13474

1 Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin.

2 Q. And do you recall whether or not you saw Mr. Borovcanin in that

3 area on the 12th or the 13th?

4 A. I don't remember seeing him. He might have been there. He might

5 have passed by.

6 Q. And given your experience, sir, in the field as a Special Police

7 Brigade member, would you have expected Mr. Borovcanin to be in that area

8 as Mr. Cuturic was?

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object to this question. I mean he's here to

10 testify on his actual knowledge what happened there.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. What's your response to

12 that, Mr. Thayer? Do you wish to proceed with your next question?

13 MR. THAYER: I will take the Court's suggestion and move on,

14 Mr. President.

15 Q. Now, sir, what kind of vehicle traffic did you observe along the

16 road on the 13th?

17 A. Buses passed by, trucks, other vehicles.

18 Q. And the buses and the trucks, who or what did they contain, from

19 what you saw?

20 A. Civilians from the area of Srebrenica, Potocari, from up there. I

21 don't know.

22 Q. And do you recall whether you saw similar traffic the day before,

23 on the 12th?

24 A. I think in the afternoon there was traffic.

25 Q. On the 12th or the 13th, do you recall any attempts by Serb forces

Page 13475

1 to communicate with the people who were in the woods?

2 A. I don't know. Could you clarify what you mean by "communicate"?

3 Q. Well, from your position, did you hear anything being said that

4 was loud enough for you to hear, from your position?

5 A. A megaphone was audible.

6 Q. And what do you recall being said through the megaphone?

7 A. It was not quite clearly audible but it could be understood. The

8 people from the forest were called upon to come out on to the road and

9 surrender, that nobody would touch them.

10 Q. And in what direction did you hear this calling out on the

11 microphone coming from?

12 A. It came from the direction of Sandici, to my right.

13 Q. And from your position at that house, looking in the direction of

14 Sandici and Konjevic Polje, were you able to see some of the hills and the

15 clearings in that direction from where you were?

16 A. From my vantage point I could see in front of me a meadow and the

17 forest. And to the right, as the land lies, there were some clearings and

18 then came a slope towards Sandici.

19 Q. And were you able to see anybody moving about in that area that

20 you described, that slope up near Sandici?

21 A. Yes. Occasionally people passed by, in those clearings where

22 there was no trees, they descended towards the brook, but I couldn't see

23 further on.

24 Q. And can you estimate approximately how far from your house this

25 area that you were just talking about was?

Page 13476

1 A. The forest where they descended?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Well, it was perhaps 800 metres away.

4 Q. Sir, did any Muslim men surrender at your location on the 12th or

5 the 13th?

6 A. Nobody surrendered where I stood.

7 Q. Now, other than the buses --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

9 THE ACCUSED BEARA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I really have to

10 leave the room for a moment.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please the security officers, I don't know how

12 the arrangement is --

13 MR. THAYER: Perhaps we could take the break, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we can take the break now. It's in five

15 minutes' time anyway, so -- 25 minutes.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic?

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President for accommodating us

20 earlier before the break. I just want to let you know we appreciate it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You can take it for granted that that will always be

22 the case. We try to keep a watchful eye all the time but we are watching

23 the Prosecution, watching the witness, we are watching you, we are

24 following the transcript and putting our -- inserting our notes, et

25 cetera, so sometimes you might be looking at the other side of what is

Page 13477

1 really happening. So you will understand that too. But I noticed

2 Colonel Beara straight away. Yes, go ahead.

3 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Good morning again, sir.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Now, other than the buses and trucks filled with civilians that

7 you mentioned previously, did you see any prisoners on the 13th along that

8 road?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Please describe what you saw.

11 A. On the 13th, sometime in the afternoon, quite a large group of

12 prisoners was moving from the direction of Sandici towards Kravica. I

13 couldn't put a number, maybe 600, 800 of them.

14 Q. And how were they moving? Were they on foot or were they in

15 vehicles?

16 A. They were walking in a column, on one part of the road, one lane.

17 Q. And was this column being escorted by anyone, sir?

18 A. Yes. I could not recognise the escorts.

19 Q. Can you tell this Trial Chamber whether those escorts were MUP or

20 whether they were VRS?

21 A. I don't know exactly. I didn't notice any members of the Ministry

22 of the Interior.

23 Q. Did you have any prior knowledge or information that this column

24 was going to be passing by your position?

25 A. As far as I remember, I was not informed.

Page 13478

1 Q. What could you observe about the people in the column? Were they

2 men and women, just men only? How were they dressed? Were they armed?

3 A. I didn't really pay attention because there was shooting coming

4 from the forest, but as far as I was able to see, they were in civilian

5 clothes, there were some in uniform, and they were walking.

6 Q. And again, sir, were these men and women or men only, from what

7 you saw?

8 A. From what I was able to see, they were men.

9 Q. And from what you were able to see, were any of those men armed,

10 sir?

11 A. No, none of them.

12 Q. At the time, did you know where those prisoners were being taken?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What happened next?

15 A. Well, after some time, I don't know exactly how much time, I heard

16 shooting coming from down there to my left.

17 Q. And when you say, "Down there to my left," do you mean in the

18 direction of Kravica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. A moment ago, you described -- you referred to some shooting you

21 heard coming from the forest. Can you please describe the shooting that

22 you're talking about now that was coming from the direction of Kravica?

23 A. The shooting from the direction of Kravica was quite louder, and

24 lasted for longer intervals. I wouldn't be able to give you the interval

25 times and durations.

Page 13479

1 Q. How did this shooting that you heard coming from the direction of

2 Kravica differ from this shooting that you were hearing from the woods and

3 throughout your deployment in this area?

4 A. It was much louder and stronger.

5 Q. Did you hear anything else coming from the direction of Kravica,

6 after you heard this stronger, louder shooting?

7 A. I could also hear detonations resounding. I believe that bombs

8 were being thrown.

9 Q. When you say "bombs" sir or it's being translated as "bombs", what

10 are you referring to?

11 A. Hand grenades.

12 Q. Based upon what you were hearing, sir, did you form any impression

13 to yourself as to what was happening down that road in the direction of

14 Kravica?

15 A. I believe that there had been a conflict there.

16 Q. Well, sir, at the time that you were hearing this, you had just

17 seen, you said, 600 to 800 unarmed prisoners being led in the direction of

18 Kravica. When you use the term "conflict," please tell the Trial Chamber,

19 as you were sitting there listening to this shooting and explosions, what

20 you thought was happening down that road to those prisoners.

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer?


24 Q. Sir, you're being asked by the interpreter to repeat your answer

25 to the question.

Page 13480

1 A. I thought that the civilians were being shot at, that fire was

2 opened on them.

3 Q. Did you communicate with any of your colleagues about what you

4 were hearing?

5 A. The person who was with me, we were talking, we were making

6 assumptions as to what might have been going on and how this conflict or,

7 how shall I put it, might have occurred.

8 Q. Well, what happened next, sir?

9 A. What do you mean what happened next?

10 Q. What did you do next after you heard what was going on down the

11 road?

12 A. I remained in my position. I did not leave my area of

13 responsibility, up to the evening when we finally withdrew.

14 Q. And how were you advised or ordered to withdraw?

15 A. Who issued the order, it was either Rado Cuturic or one of the

16 platoon commanders, I don't remember exactly.

17 Q. Where did you withdraw to and how were you taken there?

18 A. As far as I can remember, we withdrew in the direction of

19 Konjevic Polje on the bus that I have already mentioned, the 1st and the

20 2nd Platoon. The 3rd Skelani Platoon, I'm not sure about that unit. It

21 is possible that they withdrew in the direction of Skelani. Later on, I

22 heard a story that a member of the detachment from Skelani had gotten

23 killed in that area where all these civilians were killed, and that one of

24 the officers was wounded, that his arm was burned. So it is quite

25 possible that they were not taken to Konjevic Polje.

Page 13481

1 Q. Okay. Let's talk about this story that you heard about the events

2 at the Kravica warehouse. First of all, do you recall whether or not you

3 heard this account while you were in Konjevic Polje?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And where were you physically positioned or staying while you were

6 in Konjevic Polje?

7 A. Well, we were in Konjevic Polje, we were at the crossroads of the

8 Zvornik-Bratunac-Kravica road. We were on the right-hand side from the

9 direction of Bratunac, very close to the crossroads. We were in the

10 houses nearby.

11 Q. Now, let's go back to this account of the events in the warehouse.

12 You indicated that you heard that a member of the Skelani Platoon had been

13 killed there. Do you recall what that member of the Skelani Platoon's

14 name was?

15 A. Krsto Dragicevic, I believe.

16 Q. And did he have a nickname, sir, that you knew?

17 A. Krle.

18 Q. And in this account that you heard, how was Mr. Dragicevic killed?

19 A. From what I heard, one person, somebody among the prisoners,

20 snatched the rifle from the deceased and killed him. And then he also

21 tried to kill the officer. However, the officer grabbed the rifle barrel

22 and he was holding on to that barrel while the bullet was being fired from

23 the rifle.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's basically a matter of translation but when

Page 13482

1 saying "officer", I believe that we already used the nickname Oficir and

2 he was referring to the person with the nickname Oficir, and here it said

3 tried to kill the officer. So it could be understood in multiple ways

4 so -- to make sure that it's clear in the transcript.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Very valid point. Perhaps you can clear it up with

6 the witness, please.

7 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President, I was going to let him finish his

8 answer.

9 Q. When you refer to "the officer", sir, and I think you heard the

10 comment from my friend and I thank him, who were you referring to when you

11 referred to somebody grabbing the rifle and being injured, just so the

12 record is clear?

13 A. Rado Cuturic, also known as Oficir or Officer.

14 Q. And according to this account that you heard, what injuries, if

15 any, did Mr. Cuturic sustain as a result of grabbing the barrel of the

16 gun?

17 A. Burns.

18 Q. Now, this may sound like an obvious question but do you know where

19 Mr. Dragicevic was from?

20 A. From Skelani.

21 Q. And how about the rest of the members of his platoon? Where were

22 they from?

23 A. They were billeted in Skelani.

24 Q. And, in fact, sir, were most of them from the Skelani area to your

25 knowledge?

Page 13483

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Okay. Now, it's this 3rd Skelani Platoon, sir, to which

3 Mr. Dragicevic belonged that you were telling the Trial Chamber you don't

4 remember where they were located along the road on the 12th and the 13th;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, during these two days on the 12th and the 13th, do you recall

8 whether the detachment's tanks or its Praga or the three-barrelled BOV

9 were with your detachment there in the field?

10 A. There were combat vehicles but I don't know whether they were ours

11 or somebody else's.

12 Q. Well, which or what kind of combat vehicles do you recall being

13 there in that area?

14 A. I spotted a tank in Sandici. I don't know whether I saw a Praga

15 or a BOV. I really can't remember.

16 Q. Do you recall hearing a Praga or a BOV being fired during the 12th

17 and the 13th in the area of that road, sir?

18 A. Yes. I could hear sporadic shooting.

19 Q. I want to turn your attention now to the next day, the 14th of

20 July. Did you leave Konjevic Polje and, if so, where were you deployed

21 next?

22 A. We left Konjevic Polje and we went in the direction of Zvornik, as

23 far as I can recall.

24 Q. And what was your next assignment, sir?

25 A. Because of the large concentration of the then-Muslims and

Page 13484

1 currently Bosniaks, who were moving towards Zvornik and further on towards

2 Tuzla, we had to go to Baljkovica to protect the Serbian villages around

3 there.

4 Q. And what if anything happened in that area of Baljkovica?

5 A. In the area of Baljkovica, there was fierce fighting going on on

6 the 16th, between members of the BiH army, on the one hand, and members of

7 the VRS and members of the Ministry of the Interior, on the other. This

8 is a rather small area where a lot of troops were concentrated on both

9 sides, on theirs as well as ours. At the same time, the BiH army was

10 attacking our positions from the direction of Tuzla. This is where I was

11 wounded, and I had to be pulled out from the area and taken to the

12 hospital.

13 Q. Do you remember approximately -- or do you remember the date on

14 which you were wounded, sir?

15 A. It was on the 16th of July.

16 Q. Did the Serb forces at Baljkovica suffer killed and wounded as a

17 result of the fighting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where were you taken after you were wounded, sir?

20 A. I was taken to the hospital in Zvornik.

21 Q. And can you describe the scene at the hospital in Zvornik when you

22 were there for your treatment? What was happening?

23 A. Well, when I arrived at the hospital, I had been wounded in the

24 right thigh, and the doctors did not consider me an urgent case. That's

25 why I was sitting in the corridor and waiting, whereas other patients who

Page 13485

1 had been brought from the front line, who had been more seriously wounded,

2 would be treated immediately. And then at one point, I fainted as a

3 result of the loss of blood, and then I was treated. The staff was in a

4 state of alert. They were quite on the edge because of the number of

5 wounded that were being brought in.

6 Q. And to your knowledge, sir, were members of the VRS and MUP killed

7 during this action in Baljkovica?

8 A. I don't know. In my estimate, 30 or so people were.

9 Q. Now, sir, I want to show you a document that we went through

10 together yesterday. This is P01891. And I think to save some time what I

11 would like to do with Madam Usher's assistance is simply to show this

12 original to the witness, ask him to flip through it rather than asking for

13 the B/C/S on e-court. This is a logbook from the Zvornik hospital. There

14 are portions of it that are under seal.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I was going to point out that to you,

16 Mr. Thayer.

17 MR. THAYER: I will not be asking the witness to identify any

18 specific patient information other than that which may pertain to himself.

19 What I'd like to do is if we could perhaps also use the ELMO when we get

20 to particular pages. For those who are following in English, I will be

21 turning the witness's attention to pages 22 through 31.

22 Q. Sir, I just ask you to turn to the first yellow-tabbed page and

23 just ask you if a see a date next to the entry 4606 of this logbook, and

24 perhaps if we could place it under the ELMO, just to throw it up there

25 quickly?

Page 13486

1 A. Repeat the number, please.

2 Q. 4606, sir.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is the date there, sir?

5 A. 15 July 1995.

6 Q. And if we could just quickly display that on the ELMO. This is

7 ERN 0118-0285.

8 JUDGE KWON: Do you have an English page number?

9 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour, that should be page 22 of the

10 English translation.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

12 MR. THAYER: The English translation is, we've had this problem

13 before, pretty poor because of the illegibility of some of the writing so

14 I'm afraid it's not going to be particularly helpful.

15 Q. Now, sir, if you would turn to the next yellow-tabbed page in that

16 document, do you see a date on the entry 4671? This is page 25 of the

17 English translation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, what is that date there?

20 A. 16 July 1995.

21 Q. Okay. I'd ask you to flip one, two, three, four, five pages, I

22 think, to the next tabbed page. Do you see an entry at 4721?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you see a name there, sir, and a year of birth?

25 A. Predrag Celic, 1973.

Page 13487

1 Q. Is that the year of your birth, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This is page 29 of the English translation. Lastly, sir, if you

4 would turn to the final tabbed page, do you see an entry at 47 -- or a

5 date at 4749, partially in Roman numerals? This is page 31 of the

6 English. What is the date there, sir?

7 A. Should I take this?

8 Q. If you can -- sure and if you could just read the date there in

9 that entry that's 4749.

10 A. Here at the top of the page?

11 Q. Yes, sir. Do you see the date that's right there at that entry?

12 A. 4/17 Roman numeral III, and then there is 95 or what's that?

13 Q. Okay. I think we have a legibility problem, sir. Could that be a

14 Roman numeral VII that's in that entry there following the 17?

15 A. Possible. There is a line here.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. I think we're done with this exhibit.

17 Now, sir, we were a little short on time yesterday. I want to

18 show you a photograph we didn't have a chance to look at but I think

19 you've looked at this before. I'm going to ask you if you recognise

20 anybody in the photograph. For the record this is ERN 0216-4738, chapter

21 18, page 3, of P01936. It's also a video still from the trial video

22 P02047.

23 Do you recognise anyone in this photograph, sir? Do you see an

24 image in front of you?

25 A. No.

Page 13488

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. I do. I know.

3 Q. And who do you see in the photograph?

4 A. I see two persons.

5 Q. Do you recognise either of those two people, sir?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, the interpreters didn't hear

7 the question.


9 Q. Do you recognise any of those two people, sir?

10 A. I know the person who is to my right.

11 Q. Is that the individual with the ammunition across his chest, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And who is that, sir?

14 A. His name is Mirko and his nickname is Dugi.

15 Q. And how do you know him, sir?

16 A. He was also a member of the Skelani detachment -- the Skelani

17 Platoon.

18 Q. And do you recognise the person next to him, sir?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know whether this individual that you've identified as Dugi

21 is still living?

22 A. From what I heard, he died after the war, got killed after the

23 war. I think he was working with electricity somewhere and he got killed.

24 Q. Do you have any recollection of seeing this individual named Dugi

25 along the road where you were deployed on the 12th or the 13th of July

Page 13489

1 1995?

2 A. Well, I can't remember, maybe I saw him, maybe I didn't. I

3 couldn't say exactly.

4 Q. And how about Mr. Cuturic, sir, Oficir? Do you know whether he is

5 still living?

6 A. He is no longer alive.

7 Q. I want to show you another picture, sir. This is from a video

8 clip that we reviewed together yesterday, also it's a video still that you

9 also saw with me yesterday. I'm just going to ask you if you recognise

10 the individual in this photograph.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one are you referring him to? The one in the

12 foreground?


14 Q. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph, sir?

15 A. I know the person with the bandanna.

16 Q. And that's the person in the foreground with the white bandanna,

17 sir? Is that what you're referring to?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who is that, sir?

20 A. That's Milenko Trifunovic, nicknamed Cop.

21 Q. For the record this is ERN 0216-4735, chapter 18, page 2 of

22 P01936, video still taken from P02047.

23 Sir, how is it that you are familiar or acquainted with Cop?

24 A. I know Cop. He was the commander of the Skelani Platoon, and

25 Skelani was -- he used to come to the Sekovici base as required when he

Page 13490

1 needed to pick up food for that platoon or something else. He used to

2 come rather often. They sometimes went to the Sekovici base as well. So

3 I know him rather well.

4 Q. Now, sir, did any superior officer in the Special Police Brigade

5 ever ask you for a report concerning the actions of you or your platoon in

6 Potocari or along the road in July of 1995?

7 A. Not that I know of.

8 Q. Other than statements you may have provided to Defence counsel in

9 the ongoing case in Sarajevo, other than your testimony in that court,

10 other than our first meeting a couple of days ago, has anyone ever asked

11 you to submit a report about your actions or your platoon's actions in

12 Potocari or along that Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road in July of 1995?

13 A. I don't think I understand quite. Could you make the question

14 clearer?

15 Q. I'll do my best, sir. Other than any statements or testimony you

16 may have given in connection with the case in Sarajevo, and other than

17 meeting with me for the first time a couple of days ago, has anyone else

18 asked you to provide a report or an account of your activities, your

19 platoon's activities, in Potocari or along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje

20 road in July of 1995?

21 A. I think that I gave a statement to what's his name, the counsel of

22 Brano Dzinic, Suzana something.

23 Q. Ms. Tomanovic, but that was in connection with the case in

24 Sarajevo, correct, sir?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13491

1 Q. Other than that, to the best of your recollection, no one has ever

2 asked to you file a report about your activities in Potocari and along the

3 road in July of 1995?

4 A. Nobody.

5 MR. THAYER: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions at this

6 time.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Mr. Lazarevic, I suppose you

8 would wish to go first.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11 Q. Good morning, witness.

12 A. Good morning.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to make sure you wanted to go first.

14 In the meantime in order to more or less assess how much time you can

15 have, for the record, the Gvero and Pandurevic team do not wish to

16 cross-examine this witness, correct?

17 MR. JOSSE: Correct.

18 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: The Nikolic team? One moment, one moment,

20 Ms. Nikolic. Mr. Sarapa?

21 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Well, in view of the

22 examination-in-chief, we decided to ask three questions. That will take

23 no longer than five minutes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, thank you, Mr. Sarapa. Nikolic

25 team?

Page 13492

1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We'll have

2 no questions for this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Fauveau?

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] In view of the evidence given by

5 this witness so far, we decided not to ask any questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau. Mr. Zivanovic?

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We'll not cross-examine this witness also, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Ostojic?

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Mr. President, we have no questions at this time.

11 We reserve the right in case we do.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, that doesn't entitle you to go on

13 beyond what you had in mind, Mr. Stojanovic, but I think you have got more

14 than the hour that you asked for. Go ahead.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think

16 we'll be done before the next break.

17 Q. Mr. Celic, I appear here with my colleagues for Mr. Borovcanin,

18 and I have a couple of questions for you regarding these events. You said

19 today that at this moment you are a member of a support unit that is part

20 of the MUP of Republika Srpska and that is your current occupation?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I suppose in order to do that job, you had to be vetted and

23 certified for that job in Bosnia-Herzegovina, as everyone else?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us who does the vetting? Are there any international

Page 13493

1 representatives involved?

2 A. Yes, there are.

3 Q. Practically, you've been a member of the Sekovici unit from 1993?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If I understand correctly, you were barely 20 when you joined the

6 Sekovici unit?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. You spoke today about the composition of that unit and you

9 mentioned one platoon that you called the Skelani Platoon.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Well, I want to ask you about that platoon. How far is Skelani

12 from Sekovici, where the base of your platoon was?

13 A. I don't know the exact distance, but around 100 kilometres or

14 more.

15 Q. You will agree with me that in order to reach Skelani, one had to

16 pass through the territory of Serbia, because there were the enclaves of

17 Zepa and Srebrenica standing in the way between you?

18 A. Yes. We crossed through the territory of Serbia.

19 Q. In July 1995, how many approximately were in that Skelani Platoon?

20 A. I don't know the exact number, but detachments had 20 to 25 men.

21 Whether all of them were in the field deployed, I'm not sure.

22 Q. You said in your evidence that in the evening or the night on the

23 11th of July, between 1900 and 2100 hours, you departed from the Sarajevo

24 theatre of war towards Bratunac?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13494

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after this answer,

2 let me note that on page 25 -- sorry, page 43, lines 25 and page 44, line

3 1, the answer of the witness was misstated regarding the number of men in

4 a unit.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Maybe it was a slip on the

6 part of the witness but the witness did say "detachment".

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So can you clarify your point? Because although I

8 have understood what the interpreter said, I'm not sure that I have

9 understood you, Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Briefly what I see in the record,

11 the answer of the witness is recorded as follows: A detachment had 20 to

12 25 men, whereas the answer actually had to do with the number of men in a

13 platoon, as part of a detachment.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's clear this up. We are told,

15 Mr. Celic, that you did mention -- use the word "detachment" but the

16 question you need to answer is how many approximately were in the platoon,

17 in the Skelani Platoon.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A platoon had 20 to 25 members.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That is clear enough for you now,

20 Mr. Stojanovic? Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Celic. Let's proceed.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. The next thing I want to ask you, to the best of your

23 recollection, when did you arrive at that school-house in the Bjelovac

24 village near Bratunac, bearing in mind your time of departure from

25 Sarajevo?

Page 13495

1 A. I don't know the exact time but perhaps around midnight.

2 Q. That night of the 11th, after midnight, you spent the night at the

3 school, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You will agree with me that from the Sarajevo theatre of war, you

6 were pulled out precisely at the time of intensive fighting and attacks

7 coming from the 1st Corps of the BH army on the positions of the Republika

8 Srpska army?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you moved towards Bratunac, you didn't really know what your

11 new assignment in that new location would be?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Were you aware at any moment that already on the 11th of July, the

14 VRS had entered Srebrenica?

15 A. When we came to Bratunac, we knew that there were combat

16 activities going on. Whether Srebrenica had fallen or not, I was not

17 aware.

18 Q. In the morning of the 12th, you moved to carry out your combat

19 assignment, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you remember, was it foggy that morning? Was that the reason

22 why you didn't move before 8.00?

23 A. I really can't remember that.

24 Q. Were you aware that emerging at Budak village you would be ending

25 up in an area where you could enter into combat with the BH army and that

Page 13496

1 there was a possible presence of the BH army there?

2 A. We were aware of that.

3 Q. Was that the reason why you moved -- why you advanced so slowly

4 coming into that area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Earlier today, you stated that you were moving towards Budak

7 village. My question was how deep did you go into those hills looking

8 from the road, the asphalt road, leading to Srebrenica?

9 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

10 Q. Do you remember whether moving on your assignment, you saw just

11 behind the Yellow Bridge, you saw a UN check-point?

12 A. There was something, a structure, I believe it was a check-point,

13 there.

14 Q. Did you personally or your platoon have any orders to disarm or

15 capture the members of the Dutch Battalion who were located there?

16 A. No.

17 Q. To the best of your recollection, can you tell us how long this

18 assignment of yours lasted? How long did you move into the hills towards

19 Budak village?

20 A. Well, I don't know precisely. Perhaps an hour or so.

21 Q. At one point you received orders to stop and that your entire unit

22 should descend on to the road between Bratunac and Srebrenica?

23 A. Right. When we arrived up there at that point, we stayed there

24 for an hour, maybe two, and then we drew back on to the road.

25 Q. That's precisely what I meant to ask you. Could you tell us more

Page 13497

1 precisely that point where you descended on to the road, how far was it

2 from the place where you saw the majority of the civilian population

3 gathered?

4 A. Maybe 600, maybe 700 metres.

5 Q. Did you climb down to the asphalt road walking along a macadam

6 road?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now look

9 at Exhibit 4D101 that we have used before? While it is called up on

10 e-court, let me say that it's a map of this area, Bratunac, Yellow Bridge,

11 Potocari, the road towards Srebrenica, and maybe the witness could mark

12 the direction of his unit's movement on that morning of the 11th.

13 Q. Mr. Celic, you will see a map soon on the screen, and if you can

14 orient yourself on that map, maybe you could mark for us the direction in

15 which you moved. At the same time, could you --

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher assist us and

17 give a pen to the witness? Could we zoom in on the Bratunac area? That's

18 the central part of the map, at the crossroad of these two asphalt roads?

19 Thank you. Could you scroll down a bit? You will see Potocari. Down.

20 That's right. Perfect. Thank you.

21 Q. Mr. Celic, I will try to direct you. Do you see on this sketch an

22 area marked Borici? Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just below there is an interruption in the road. It looks like a

25 bridge. Can you see that?

Page 13498

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you see down the road the area of Budak village?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Do you see the area where it says Pecista and letters TV, standing

5 for "tvornica" I suppose, factory?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Is this enough to orient you now so you can mark the route you

8 used from Zuti Most towards Budak and where you emerged on the road?

9 A. Well, we went along this part of the road.

10 Q. You can use the pen to draw on the screen.

11 A. [Marks] And then we turned somewhere, at this point, and we came

12 here.

13 Q. Is that the area where you stayed for about two hours, as you

14 said?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then you said you walked along a macadam road down towards the

17 road. Can you mark that?

18 A. Yes. [Marks]

19 Q. Thank you. Can you mark where most of that civilian population

20 you could see from the hills were located? Could you put a circle?

21 A. Here, I think. [Marks]

22 Q. And could you please mark the area from the point you emerged from

23 the road to this circle, could you just write 600 metres and M for metres?

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you. And then on the right-hand side anywhere you like, put

Page 13499

1 today's date, please, and your signature.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And your signature, please.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Celic.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we leave this

7 on the screen for the next couple of questions? And then we'll remove it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by all means, Mr. Stojanovic.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the

10 record, can we please correct something? It says 28th of July. Today we

11 are 28th of June. I would kindly ask the usher to assist us with erasing

12 that erroneous date and replacing it by the correct date, which is --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Can that still be done? You need to show him how to

14 erase.

15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. Let's

17 proceed.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the witness

19 and the usher. I don't think her assistance will be necessary.

20 Q. Mr. Celic, how long did you stay on the road, on this asphalt

21 road, before you started moving towards Bratunac?

22 A. We stayed there while we were being gathered, waiting for the

23 vehicle to come and pick us up. I believe we were there for an hour or

24 so.

25 Q. On the way from the place where you had gathered, to Sandici,

Page 13500

1 where you stopped, did you make any stops in Bratunac, for example?

2 A. No, I can't remember actually. We might have. I don't know.

3 Q. Mr. Celic, we put it to you that the 2nd Detachment Sekovici left

4 the area of Potocari before the evacuation of the civilian population of

5 Potocari started. To your best recollection, would you agree that that

6 was the case?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You personally did not see the moment when the transport of the

9 civilians from Potocari started in the direction of Tuzla while were you

10 in Potocari, that is?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 Q. As you were leaving the area of Potocari to go towards Bratunac,

13 on your left-hand side you again passed the check-point of the

14 Dutch Battalion; is that correct?

15 A. The left-hand side, the right-hand side -- we did pass it in any

16 case.

17 Q. No members of your unit opened fire or stopped to disarm members

18 of the United Nations; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since we are moving

22 to the territory of Sandici, I believe that we will no longer need this

23 photo and it can be removed from the screen.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Save it, please.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13501

1 Q. To your best recollection, Mr. Celic, on the 12th of July, in the

2 afternoon, when did you arrive and when were you deployed along the

3 Sandici-Kravica road?

4 A. It was in the afternoon, indeed, but I don't know how late it was.

5 Maybe it was around 1.00 or 2.00 in the afternoon.

6 Q. You already found there some members of the VRS and members of the

7 1st Company of the PJP?

8 A. Yes. There were some people there but I don't know who they were,

9 as far as I can remember.

10 Q. You don't know what military unit they belonged to?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Let me just ask you, by the way, bearing in mind the answer that

13 you provided to my learned friend, Mr. Thayer, you had overalls and

14 two-piece uniforms; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. We had overalls and we also had two-piece uniforms.

16 Q. Was that two-piece uniform also a camouflage uniform?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it was also olive-drab?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. Your belts were not white, were they?

21 A. No, they were not?

22 Q. The weapons that you mentioned, the M-84 machine-gun that you were

23 issued was calibre 7.62 made in 64 [as interpreted]; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the

Page 13502

1 record, page 52, line 6, the model was made in 84 rather than in 64, just

2 to avoid any misunderstandings. I don't think that this is very important

3 but I would just like for the record to be clear.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's on the record now. So let's proceed. Thank

5 you.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Do you know whether on the 12th of July, i.e., during that

8 afternoon and the night between the 12th and the 13th, there were any

9 prisoners within the area that you might have controlled?

10 A. As far as I know, there were none.

11 Q. During that afternoon or during that night, was there any shooting

12 from the direction of the forest that was ahead of you?

13 A. Yes, there was shooting coming from there.

14 Q. You said that in the afternoon on the 12th of July, you saw the

15 population being transported in buses and lorries in large numbers. Do

16 you remember that?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Did this continue on the 13th as well?

19 A. Yes, it did.

20 Q. Your unit did not have anything to do with the transport of the

21 civilians, did it?

22 A. No, it did not.

23 Q. Was your attention drawn to the fact that a column of the

24 28th Division of the BiH army was moving along the open spaces and through

25 the forests ahead of you?

Page 13503

1 A. We were told that up there, there were men, but nobody mentioned

2 any numbers or names of any units, so I didn't know that.

3 Q. But you were told that they were members of the BiH army, weren't

4 you?

5 A. Yes, we were.

6 Q. I would now like to ask you this: Do you remember that next to

7 these vehicles on the road, did you see an armoured vehicle of the

8 United Nations, who also followed the same road?

9 A. No, I can't remember that.

10 Q. Did you at any point in time during the war and your membership in

11 the 2nd Detachment of Sekovici see your unit using a bull horn for the

12 purposes similar to those that you described today?

13 A. No. No, we didn't use it.

14 Q. In your best recollection, did your unit have any such device at

15 their disposal?

16 A. No, I don't know. I'm not aware of that.

17 Q. During your chief examination, you have explained in detail the

18 passage of the prisoners that was moving alongside on the road. Can you

19 remember approximately what was the time of -- on that day, the 13th of

20 July, when they passed through there?

21 A. It may have been around 2.00 or maybe 3.00. I don't know.

22 Q. You did not recognise any escorts of the column?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. What I would like to know now is this: At the moment when that

25 column had passed, did you already have information that you were supposed

Page 13504

1 to abandon the area and to eventually head for Zvornik?

2 A. Yes. There were stories to that effect. We have been -- we were

3 told that we should leave the area quite soon.

4 Q. Was anybody said about the people in the column actually having

5 been prisoners that were taken when the crowd moved out of the forest?

6 A. Can you repeat that question? I didn't quite understand you.

7 Q. At one point, that column of prisoners was passing by you, they

8 were on foot and they were moving down the road. Among you, members of

9 your unit, were there any words about the origin of these prisoners? Did

10 anybody say that these were men who had come out of the forest?

11 A. I suppose that those were the same men, those who had come out of

12 the forest. I assume that.

13 Q. Did anybody say that some of them had thrown their arms, that they

14 were unarmed at the moment that -- when they were taken prisoner?

15 A. Yes. There were such stories. After some time people did say

16 that these men had thrown their arms and that they came out of the woods.

17 At certain moments, there were conflicts in the forest, although there

18 were no members of our army or our police up there.

19 Q. Did you know that on that day, on the 13th of July, General Mladic

20 also appeared in the area? Were there stories to that effect amongst

21 yourselves?

22 A. Yes, I heard that. I heard that he'd been here.

23 Q. You personally didn't see him, did you?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. You've also told us that on the 13th of July, late in the

Page 13505

1 afternoon, you left this area and started moving towards Zvornik, i.e.,

2 towards Konjevic Polje. Do you remember saying that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. If I say, bearing in mind that this was during the summer, that

5 this was between 8.00 and 9.00, would that be approximately the time when

6 you left the area?

7 A. Yes. That would approximately be the time when we left.

8 Q. Do you know that another unit replaced you on the road in the

9 positions that you had held up to then? Are you aware of any such unit

10 arriving?

11 A. As far as I can remember, some men did arrive. I don't know which

12 unit that was, where from.

13 Q. You have described for us the place where you were billeted the

14 night after, that this was in the area of Konjevic Polje. Do you remember

15 that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What kind of facilities are we talking about? What kind of houses

18 were those where were you billeted?

19 A. Houses. By the road. They were there, half demolished.

20 Q. They were abandoned houses, then?

21 A. Yes, they were.

22 Q. Will you agree with me that those houses were 300 to 400 metres

23 from the crossroads in the centre of Konjevic Polje in the direction of

24 Zvornik on the right-hand side of the road? That would be the approximate

25 location of these houses, will you agree with me, as you're looking in the

Page 13506

1 direction of Zvornik on the right-hand side?

2 A. Possibly, or maybe some 200 metres, I'd say.

3 Q. That night, between the 13th and 14th of July, were there any

4 combat activities in the area where you were billeted?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You were saying that you did not remember that members of the

7 Skelani Platoon were there. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. According to what you remember, is it possible that in the house

10 where you were, did your commander come to that house, Commander Rado

11 Cuturic, do you remember?

12 A. It is possible that he came to that house.

13 Q. The story about the incident in Kravica that you related to my

14 learned friend, Mr. Thayer, who told you that? Who did you hear that

15 from?

16 A. When we arrived in Konjevic Polje, there were stories to that

17 effect, describing what had taken place, what had transpired. I don't

18 know exactly who told me that story.

19 Q. The next time when you saw Rado, was it in Zvornik, Baljkovica or

20 further afield? Do you remember when you saw him, were his hands injured?

21 Did he have any visible traces of the injuries?

22 A. His hand was dressed. I don't know which one. I don't know

23 whether it was his left or his right hand.

24 Q. Will you agree with me that he was not with you in Baljkovica when

25 that combat was taking place?

Page 13507

1 A. I'm not sure. I don't think so. I don't know.

2 Q. At this moment, I am confused about one day, about the 14th of

3 July, which escapes me somehow. I would like to establish a chronology

4 backwards. It is the fact that you were wounded on the 16th of July in

5 Baljkovica; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you remember to the best of your recollection, how many nights

8 you had spent in Baljkovica, before you were wounded?

9 A. One night.

10 Q. So you should have arrived in Baljkovica on the 15th, in the

11 afternoon, wouldn't that be correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If I put it to you that on the 14th of July, and during the night

14 between the 14th and 15th of July, you arrived in the suburbs of Zvornik

15 in the area of Drinjaca and that you spent that time there waiting your

16 further orders, would that be correct?

17 A. It is possible but I can't remember that at all. I really can't

18 remember where we were.

19 Q. You don't remember that before your arrival in Baljkovica you had

20 any combat engagement that you engaged in any fighting?

21 A. No. We spent the entire day of the 15th in Zvornik. We were in

22 town.

23 Q. And on the 15th, when was it when you started to go towards

24 Baljkovica?

25 A. It was sometime late in the afternoon. When we arrived it was

Page 13508

1 raining very heavily. We were as wet as mice, as our people like to say.

2 Q. Since a majority of us do not know the area, I will kindly ask you

3 to portray a picture for us. The place where you were between Sandici and

4 Kravica, how far is it from Konjevic Polje and the place where you arrived

5 on the 13th in the evening and where you were billeted that night?

6 A. Please repeat your question.

7 Q. My question is this: The place where you were on the 12th and the

8 13th of July, which is the area between Kravica and Sandici that you have

9 described for us, and I'm going to show you a photo later, how far is that

10 place in kilometres from the place where you spent the night between the

11 13th and the 14th of July in Konjevic Polje?

12 A. How far is it? Maybe 25 kilometres.

13 Q. Can you now tell us, please, the area where you were billeted in

14 Konjevic Polje between the 13th and 14th of July, how far is that from the

15 town of Zvornik?

16 A. Approximately 35 kilometres, maybe 40 even.

17 Q. The next thing I would like to know is this: In your best

18 knowledge, do you know that parts of the Sekovici Detachment on the 14th

19 of July, did they have any combat missions on their way to Mount Mudrize

20 [phoen] that's in the vicinity?

21 A. I wouldn't know that.

22 Q. On the 15th of July, in the afternoon, you arrived in Baljkovica;

23 is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Can you please tell us, as far as you can remember, were there

Page 13509

1 members of any other police forces that had arrived in the area?

2 A. There was the 1st Company. I don't know whether there were any

3 other detachments. I can't remember.

4 Q. When you say the 1st Company --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. What's --

6 MR. THAYER: I think we are on the same wavelength.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead, then, Mr. Stojanovic.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Let us just clarify one thing. When you say the 1st Company, do

10 you mean the 1st Company of the PJP, which is part of the centre of

11 security of Zvornik?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were there different military formations there in addition to your

14 units?

15 A. Yes, there were.

16 Q. During that afternoon on the 15th and during the following night,

17 did you have any combat engagements?

18 A. As far as I can remember, we arrived later on the 15th, we were

19 deployed, there was a macadam road in that area. In the place where I

20 was, there was a crossroads and men who were there, the troops that were

21 there, told us that there were self-propelled combat pieces in front of us

22 and that the Muslims had kidnapped those pieces. There was some

23 shooting - but not any major ones - sometime in the evening. And this

24 lasted until 4.00 or 5.00. A few -- actually one bullet was fired at that

25 time. I don't know whether that was a signal of some short. They

Page 13510

1 shouted, "Allahu Akbar," and then fierce fighting started, which continued

2 for quite a long time.

3 Q. You said that it was raining. Are you talking about that night,

4 the night between the 15th and the 16th?

5 A. Yes, when we arrived there.

6 Q. Since we heard more than a few testimonies about this inclement

7 weather, was it really that bad and did it really affect the intensity?

8 A. I don't know about that but it was raining buckets. That was that

9 night. The next day, as far as I remember, there was no rain.

10 Q. What time -- at what point on the 16th of July were you wounded?

11 A. I don't know the exact time, but the fighting started early in the

12 morning, around 4.00 or 5.00, and then you lose track. Maybe it was

13 10.00, maybe it was 12.00.

14 Q. On the 15th, in the afternoon, or in the morning of the 16th, did

15 you see Ljubomir Borovcanin in that area?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. Do you remember hearing that he was somewhere in that area?

18 A. I don't know. It's a possibility. Maybe people were talking.

19 But I don't know.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since we have only

21 one more exhibit that I want to show to this witness, and a couple of more

22 questions that will take ten more minutes, perhaps could we take the break

23 now?

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We have got the following suggestion to make.

Page 13511

1 First, will there be a re-examination based on what you've haired so far?

2 MR. THAYER: Not so far, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Would the interpreters, technicians and

4 everyone else accept to go on for a further ten minutes after which we

5 will then adjourn? I see Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I believe Mr. Lazarevic, we wanted

7 to talk a bit about tomorrow and that would be better if we took a break

8 so we could talk about it afterwards.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means, Mr. McCloskey, so let's have a break

10 now for 25 -- would 25 minutes be enough for you, Mr. McCloskey, or do you

11 require 30 minutes.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Twenty-five is fine.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. We'll have a 25-minute

14 break.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. To try to make it quick, Mr. Celic, you remember that document

20 from the hospital in Zvornik shown you by the Prosecutor?

21 A. Yes, I remember.

22 Q. You saw there was your name there in one line and no information

23 about any injuries you sustained; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'm not going to show it again. Just want to ask you what kind of

Page 13512

1 injuries did you sustain?

2 A. An entry and exit gunshot wound.

3 Q. At one point, were you transferred from the Zvornik hospital to a

4 hospital in Milici?

5 A. I was transferred from Zvornik to Standard, and after a while I

6 was transferred on to Milici.

7 Q. And your treatment was completed at the hospital in Milici;

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. In conclusion, let me ask you, I suppose that from

11 1993 and until the end of the war, 1995, your Sekovici Detachment

12 participated in a lot of fighting where your units were commanded by

13 Ljubomir Borovcanin?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. What are your impressions about Ljubomir Borovcanin as a superior

16 officer, as a human being?

17 A. I can say that very briefly. He was a good man and a strict

18 superior. That means he was kind to people, and he was friendly and

19 helped people whenever he could, when we were at ease, and in combat we

20 had to follow the rules strictly. He insisted on that and people

21 appreciated it.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Celic. I have no

23 further questions, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Sarapa?

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

Page 13513

1 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. My name is Djordje Sarapa and I

2 represent Mr. Pandurevic. I have only one question. Do you know if

3 anybody from the Sekovici Detachment was killed at Baljkovica?

4 A. Let me think. Not that I know.

5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

6 questions.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Sarapa. Is there re-examination?

8 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Celic, we have no further questions for you,

10 which means that your testimony ends here. You're free to go and you'll

11 be escorted out of the courtroom and receive all the assistance you need

12 to return home. I wish to thank you on behalf of the Tribunal for having

13 come over to give testimony and on behalf of everyone present here I wish

14 you a safe journey.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

18 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we circulated a revised witness list

19 last night and as I look at the list, I believe the first item is already

20 admitted, which is -- exhibit list, yes. Yes. So I'm referring to the

21 revised exhibit list that was circulated last night. The first number

22 1891, I believe has already been admitted, as 1DP01891, and the two video

23 stills, I would submit we should follow the practice that we've engaged

24 in, which is they are part of the video still binder that we are gradually

25 filling and that they be marked for identification until the end of the

Page 13514

1 road, at which time we'll move the entire video still binder into

2 evidence. For the time being we've identified the time on the video at

3 which those photographs can be located as well as the chapter and page

4 from that still binder.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections from any of the Defence teams? None.

6 So that's how it will be. First one, 65 ter number 1891 understanding

7 is that it has already been admitted. Okay. There is one document that

8 the Borovcanin Defence team wishes to tender, and that's 65 ter number

9 4DIC136, which is a map of the Zvornik area marked by the witness, no

10 objection, I suppose.

11 MR. THAYER: No objection, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't imagine there are any objections from any

13 of the other Defence teams so that is admitted and we have concluded with

14 this witness.

15 Yes? I understand that you wish to address the Chamber on what's

16 going to happen tomorrow? Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, if I may address the

18 Trial Chamber, I would like to move the Trial Chamber for reconsideration

19 of yesterday's ruling. If Your Honours remember --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Which ruling, that we will have a debate tomorrow,

21 in other words?

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, we were instructed yesterday, both the

23 Defence and the Prosecution, to prepare the debate on the issue of the

24 admissibility of Mr. Borovcanin's interview and it was scheduled for

25 tomorrow, for Friday. And in particular the Defence of Mr. Borovcanin is

Page 13515

1 instructed to make a formal request in this respect for tomorrow.

2 After having second thoughts about all this, we have some issue

3 that we would like to raise before the Trial Chamber before we start all

4 this. It is our understanding that the Prosecution wishes to tender

5 Mr. Borovcanin's interviews into evidence through their witness,

6 Mr. Alistair Graham, and according to the latest witness list that we

7 received yesterday, it is his testimony scheduled for the 17th of July.

8 We believe that if Mr. Borovcanin's Defence makes a submission before

9 Mr. Graham's examination-in-chief, it would put itself in rather

10 unfavourable position.

11 Most of the Defence arguments in support of exclusion of

12 Mr. Borovcanin's interview from the evidence are directly relevant and

13 related to the conduct of Mr. Alistair Graham during this interview, not

14 just Mr. Graham but also to some other participants in these interviews.

15 So if we make a full submission about all the topics that we would like to

16 cover in our arguments, we would basically disclose to the Prosecution all

17 our lines of cross-examination which we intend to go with Mr. Graham, we

18 would give them all our tactics, we would practically put ourselves in a

19 situation to give to the Prosecution all our questions even before

20 Mr. Graham takes the stand. And we don't believe it would be fair, that

21 would give huge advantage to the Prosecution over the Defence in such a

22 situation, and it would cause an unfairness towards Mr. Borovcanin's

23 Defence.

24 However, we would like to suggest the Trial Chamber apply the same

25 approach as it did in the similar situation in this particular

Page 13516

1 proceedings, namely the intercept approach. We suggest that we first hear

2 the evidence of Mr. Graham, then after Mr. Graham gives his evidence, and

3 of course, including examination-in-chief, Mr. Borovcanin's interviews

4 could be marked for identification and then we will be in a position to

5 make a full argumentation about the admissibility of his interviews.

6 That's one of the solutions that we might suggest. It was already applied

7 once in these proceedings. I discussed this issue with some of my

8 colleagues in various other cases. I was also instructed that in

9 Milutinovic case, same approach was applied, first to hear the evidence of

10 a witness, who was -- Mr. Graham was one of the participants in this

11 interview, and after he gives his evidence then we will discuss all this.

12 I discussed this issue with Mr. McCloskey earlier this morning.

13 He did have some sympathy, I don't wish to say that he will fully support

14 but he had some sympathies, he said, "I really don't feel good about

15 knowing your cross-examination in advance." That is something like this.

16 But if there are any legal issues that will not be of this importance,

17 which will not be raised by examination of Mr. Graham, then this is

18 something that we can discuss tomorrow. Basically, I hope I stated his

19 position clearly and that basically was it.

20 By now I managed to find only two legal issues which I can discuss

21 tomorrow without putting myself in such a situation to disclose my

22 cross-examination. And these two are whether the Prosecution is obliged

23 to ask for formal admittance of Mr. Borovcanin's interview on Rule 65 ter

24 list. The other issue is, well, it is of course relevant for

25 Mr. Borovcanin's Defence but it's also relevant for all other defences and

Page 13517

1 that's the impact that the admissibility of -- the admission of

2 Mr. Borovcanin's interview into evidence will have towards other Defences.

3 So these are two topics which I can cover tomorrow without any problem.

4 For all the rest, I believe that it would be fair to first cross-examine

5 Mr. Graham and then, depending on his answers that I receive during

6 cross-examination, I will be able to locate other topics which I can then

7 elaborate more after he finishes his testimony.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One thing that is not clear from your submission is

9 what's going to happen in the meantime relating to the use of the

10 interview, which I suppose is video-taped. No? It's not videotaped?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Audio only.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. I see. What's going to happen with that?

13 And are you suggesting that, pending the resolution of -- the ultimate

14 resolution of admissibility of this previous -- of this interview with

15 your client, it will not be made use during the testimony of Mr. Graham or

16 did I misunderstand you?

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe that I -- of course, it

18 has to be used during cross-examination of Mr. Graham. So once Mr. Graham

19 comes, it can -- it has to be used during his examination-in-chief.


21 MR. LAZAREVIC: I just simply want to avoid the situation to give

22 my questions in advance to the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to make that clear because it's of

24 course important and it has -- such a situation has arisen before, as you

25 know, not only in the Milutinovic case but also in others.

Page 13518

1 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. As you know, my

3 biggest concern about this was whether there would be a delay, a legal

4 issue that would result in a delay to the testimony. Since Mr. Lazarevic

5 is not having a problem with the introduction or the offering, that

6 particular problem is -- does not appear to be a problem any more. So I

7 think that is settled, mostly, though there may be some other smaller

8 issues related to another point he said.

9 But before I get to that, I do think the Defence is required to

10 provide, at least the legal grounds by which their cross-examination will

11 take. The Prosecution, while the law is not absolutely clear in our

12 jurisdiction, what I think is clear is that the Prosecution is obligated

13 to provide evidence to the Court that this -- any statements such as this

14 was done according to the rules and was not done in an environment that it

15 would be less than voluntary or it was coercive or inducements or

16 something like that.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, and the burden of proof of that lies with you

18 and not with Mr. Lazarevic. You know that.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely. So that's one of the reasons why we

20 would call Alistair Graham. The Court may be aware of the recent case of

21 Halilovic, the Appellate Chamber allowed the transcript of an interview to

22 come in based on the fact that the transcript itself met those basic

23 criteria, then they threw it out on other grounds. But in any event, we

24 don't wish to try to bring in the transcript without Alistair Graham.

25 Alistair Graham is available and so we would do that.

Page 13519

1 Now, counsel has said that his grounds -- something to do with the

2 way Mr. Graham conducted the interview, so I think we at the very least

3 need to know if he's suggesting that there were inducements, that

4 something happened that caused it to be involuntary. What are the legal

5 grounds by which he is referring to? I don't need, nor do I want, his

6 cross-examination questions but I think we owe -- we are at least owed

7 if -- basically if he's going to try to have this statement thrown out on

8 what must be voluntary grounds at this point, I don't know what other

9 grounds there are, we need to know what they are. Is it inducement, is it

10 voluntary, is it -- what is it? The record itself is very clear. He gets

11 his rights, there's no problems with any disagreements.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Skip that. Skip that.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's made some allegations here, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need to hear submissions on

15 something that needs -- that will be discussed later on. For the time

16 being I think what we need to know is Mr. Lazarevic's position on what you

17 have just suggested, namely that at least you should have an initial

18 indication of what he is contesting, what he is contesting you.

19 Mr. Lazarevic?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, could I just -- one slight other

21 point. It's also very clear not contested that I played a significant

22 role in this interview, and so if there are some sorts of challenges on

23 these undefined as yet subjects, I need to know that as well. It may be

24 more appropriate if there is some kind of allegations that Mr. Thayer

25 handle this. Right now, I was planning on handling it but I don't

Page 13520

1 generally handle things if my involvement could be at issue. I really

2 don't know what he's referring to. So if we could get at least a legal

3 reference. Thank you, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That raises another point obviously, whether you

5 should be present when we are receiving evidence or submissions on this

6 because if you see yourself even potentially, even if it is a remote

7 possibility, as a witness, then you know what your responsibilities are,

8 and I don't think I need to elaborate on that. This is ordinary --

9 something which we all know.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. My bar association requires

11 me that if I have to become a witness, that I set aside. But for all the

12 years I've been in this business, I will take part in interviews but I

13 will always have an investigator present so I don't see any situation that

14 would require myself to be a witness. If I did see that, I would remove

15 myself. But again, let's -- if we could get more definition on this, we

16 can deal with it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, I mentioned that because I think it's

18 relevant. Then it's up to you, of course. Yes, Mr. Ostojic?

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. With all due respect, and

20 if I can just intervene, I think there are very significant legal issues

21 that the Court has to address, well before we start discussing whether

22 this interview may or may not be admitted into evidence. Specifically,

23 without divulging it, I think Mr. McCloskey will agree with me, the

24 witness who was interviewed in two separate occasions on a couple of days

25 was referred to as a possible suspect.

Page 13521

1 Now, if we look at our rules of evidence and procedure here, they

2 specifically outline -- well the accused, right, at that point. The

3 accused who gave the interview was identified both on the second page of

4 the February 2002 interview and the March 2002 interview, was told that

5 he's possibly a suspect. Now we've seen other interviews that came in and

6 they were either a witness or a suspect and we have seen some variations

7 during those interviews. The rules, specifically 43 and 63, set forth

8 those procedures and guidelines on how to conduct recorded interviews for

9 either suspects or accused and incorporate other requirements from

10 Rule 42(A)(iii), so --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please?

12 MR. OSTOJIC: I will. With all due respect to Mr. McCloskey, I

13 think there are very significant issues, although I would join it, I

14 thought the Court addressed the question specifically to Mr. Lazarevic. I

15 want to be involved in the discussion in this. I haven't been given

16 additional copies of transcripts, although I was promised it today that we

17 should get it tomorrow, because there is some revisions from things that

18 were not necessarily heard. They are important. We have to address that

19 and I think both Mr. Alistair, and possibly Mr. McCloskey but I don't

20 think so, should address that as a fundamental threshold, and then at a

21 subsequent time we can determine the issues that Mr. McCloskey is deciding

22 so I think it's a two-prong process, quite candidly.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's hear what Mr. Lazarevic has to say

24 before I give you back the floor, Mr. McCloskey. Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, yes, thank you, Your Honour. I can

Page 13522

1 understand my colleague's concerns regarding all this. I really feel the

2 same. I would have felt the same way if I were in his position, but I

3 have to say I can name all the issues, that it's not something that I

4 cannot do tomorrow, but elaborating more on all these issues would be

5 simply opening all my cards to the Prosecution.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's fine. I don't think anyone is going to

7 disagree with you. Yes, Mr. Josse?

8 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I make a couple of observations

9 really in relation to what my learned friends representing the co-accused

10 have said? Mr. Lazarevic has suggested that one of the things we could do

11 tomorrow is analyse the effect that this interview would have evidentially

12 against the co-accused. In my submission that would be the wrong thing to

13 do tomorrow. Realistically, the Court first has to decide whether this

14 interview is going to be admitted into evidence. Once that's been done,

15 then the point that Mr. Lazarevic has made does need to be addressed,

16 indeed I've discussed it with a number of my learned friends and indeed

17 with Mr. McCloskey.

18 Presently there is no agreement on the point, and in due course,

19 those of us representing the co-accused will need to know in terms,

20 whether this interview, if admitted into evidence, in part or in whole,

21 has any evidential effect as against our clients. So it is a live issue

22 but it's not one that we should address tomorrow, in our submission.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I will take it that if you have copies of this

24 interview or if you will have copies of this interview, complete copy by

25 today, then you yourselves should be in a position to know how much and to

Page 13523

1 what extent any of the other co-accused are involved in this statement.

2 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, frankly I meant more as a matter of

3 theoretical legal principle rather than the actuality of what

4 Mr. Borovcanin said during the course of the interview, because even

5 theoretically, it has a certain knock-on effect as against all the

6 co-accused. If it's only, for example, in relation to the crime base,

7 which clearly he was asked about at some length in the course of the

8 interview. So it's more a theoretical point.

9 I know that other Trial Chambers of the Tribunal have addressed

10 the issue and are addressing the issue. I know as well that it was a live

11 issue in the Blagojevic-Jokic case and indeed I hope Mr. McCloskey will

12 forgive me for saying this but in that case he conceded that Jokic's

13 interview had no evidential effect as against Blagojevic. He said that in

14 terms in the course of a motion. However he has said to me this morning,

15 to be fair to him, that he might resile from that position. It is an

16 issue but it's not one we should address tomorrow and it's complicated,

17 I'm afraid.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I definitely would agree to you because what -- I

19 understand you better now what obviously Mr. Josse is referring to is the

20 rule that one finds in several jurisdictions, including my own, and I

21 would imagine also in yours, as to whether if at all and to what extent

22 any statement made by one of the co-accused should have -- be valid or

23 have probative value in relation to the other co-accused.

24 MR. JOSSE: I think it is the law in Canada, in fact, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so too. More or less we have got similar.

Page 13524

1 I don't know what the law is in Korea. I understand you well. This is

2 basically what you're referring to. Yes, Mr. McCloskey, I think again

3 it's something that, yes, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. This interesting issue of admissibility

5 towards fellow accused is not a issue that will hold up the testimony and

6 is an issue that can be briefed.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's exactly how I feel.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can tell everyone that the policy of the Office

9 of the Prosecutor is now that a statement can be used against fellow

10 accused and it's up to the Court to decide what weight they give it. I

11 think it's a more of a civil law view of things. In the Jokic case, there

12 was no law on it and I went back on my -- my United States law and he's

13 correct, we just went on what you're obviously familiar with. But in any

14 event I welcome Mr. Ostojic's identifying a legal issue because that's the

15 kind of legal issue I need to know about.

16 Now, Mr. Ostojic has no standing in my view to argue the

17 admissibility of Borovcanin's confession but that is an issue that his

18 colleague may wish to take up. If it is an issue he wishes to take up, I

19 need to know that so that I can be prepared because that's the kind of

20 issue that could result in, if you find that his -- that the warnings were

21 not sufficient, then Mr. Graham would not be called, obviously, or the

22 excuse me, the statement would not come in. But if this is not something

23 Mr. Lazarevic wishes to take on, then that's not the kind of issue I'm

24 concerned about.

25 But I do need to know if there is issues related to voluntariness,

Page 13525

1 issues that sound to me like some kind of an attack on the credibility or

2 the integrity of the Office of the Prosecutor, we need to have some idea

3 of -- again, not the question but we do need something on that lines.

4 Mr. Lazarevic also suggests the issue of admissibility of other co-accused

5 is an issue he can discuss. Well, I don't think he has standing for

6 himself to discuss that. So in any event, I would like -- I think we need

7 to hear what legal issues, if any, Mr. Lazarevic has and after being aware

8 of this issue for ten months, he either makes them tomorrow or they are

9 waived and we go forward. We need more clarity than what I'm getting

10 right now.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But my understanding of what Mr. Lazarevic said is

12 that he's prepared to give you broad insight into what he is contesting

13 without going into further detail. That's my understanding. If I haven't

14 read you well, Mr. Lazarevic, please correct me.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour is completely right. That's exactly

16 what I was suggesting.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I suggest is that you either say it now, in

18 open court, so that it will go in the record, or you intimate it to the

19 Prosecution after we adjourn. Either of the two. I would prefer if we

20 have a clear statement now for the record. I think it would be sufficient

21 if you just state on what basis you are contesting the admissibility of

22 this interview or these interviews, whether it's on a question of

23 voluntariness, whether it's violation of our particular rules, regulating,

24 and in that case, in which part of the rule. I mean that's -- I think

25 that can be done.

Page 13526

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I think so. I can do it openly now.

2 All right. Besides two legal issues that I already mentioned,

3 impact on other accused, it's really not a topic that I will cover, and

4 the other one whether it is on Rule 65 ter list, the warning that was

5 issued to Mr. Borovcanin was insufficient in our opinion. It was not

6 according to rules, according to laws that Mr. Borovcanin was familiar of.

7 Other thing is statutes that Mr. Borovcanin had during this interview.

8 We believable that he was misled by the fact that he was -- well, that's

9 basically what Mr. Ostojic said, that he was a potential suspect instead

10 of being clear about his position, that he is a suspect when giving an

11 interview and the rights that he has according to this. We believe that

12 Mr. Borovcanin did not have adequate Defence and the preparation was not

13 sufficient for this. Furthermore, we state that for one significant part

14 of his interview, his counsel was not present at all. And if Your Honours

15 could bear for one second with me?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, yes, and there is one more issue which is,

19 of course, maybe interesting for Mr. McCloskey. We believe that during

20 the interview, Mr. Borovcanin was directed to give certain answers, which

21 he didn't intend to, and we will make it very clear once we are in a

22 position to speak very openly, once Mr. Graham comes here.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's clear enough and should suffice for

24 your purposes, Mr. McCloskey, unless you disagree. I don't think you

25 would.

Page 13527

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. That's very helpful. Most of those are legal

2 grounds that are fairly common. And I don't see the -- some of the more

3 traditional voluntary issues such as threats or inducements. I didn't

4 hear that. I didn't hear anything directly improper aside from these

5 arguments. So I thank my counsel for that. That does help us. And just

6 one other issue that may be -- may be an issue, and all counsel might be

7 able to help us. On the issue of admissibility of the statements against

8 others, there are -- and of course I won't say what they are but there are

9 some references to other co-accused and it would be our position that that

10 would all come out during this interview and that we argue about

11 admissibility later, this may be resolved by the Trial -- by the Appellate

12 Chamber.

13 There may be counsel that don't want any of that to come out, but

14 I just say that because of -- if we can resolve that, if there are any

15 people or any counsel that don't want or that are arguing that references

16 should not come out in the interview, obviously we need to know that

17 before we go into this so that we know what we are doing when we turn on

18 the tape.

19 MR. JOSSE: By come out my learned friend means adduced, rather

20 than excised.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I mean adduced, made open. Yeah, adduced.

22 Adduced sounds good.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we can safely -- does anyone

24 wish to address? Yes, Ms. Fauveau?

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

Page 13528

1 like to draw the Trial Chamber's attention to the fact that Mr. Miletic's

2 Defence will file an objection to filing of this exhibit. I don't want to

3 go into details but I would like to say that what has been said by

4 Mr. McCloskey with regard to the countries where continental law is

5 practised is simply not right. In such countries, the statements are

6 given before an investigating judge, which is an entirely different

7 matter. In other words, we will contest the admissibility with the

8 interview with Mr. Borovcanin.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: The Trial Chamber with one more issue. During

10 this break I was approached by Ms. Soljan and it seems we will resolve the

11 issue of the transcripts of Mr. Borovcanin later this afternoon. So we

12 most probably will have a transcript which is agreed by both sides here.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any further submissions?

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. I would agree with Ms. Fauveau. When we are

15 talking investigative judge, that's the situation I was referring to.

16 But -- and that is slightly different than lawyers and investigators so

17 that-- I wasn't meaning to get that precise. But there is one thing that

18 Mr. Thayer called my attention to and that was there was one of -- I think

19 the fifth ground that someone in this interview may have pressured to

20 witness to answer a certain way. And if that someone was me - and I can

21 be a little pushy at times - we need to know about that. If that's their

22 allegation.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Of course if there is such thing, I will let

25 Mr. McCloskey know in time.

Page 13529

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Ostojic?

2 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, just on the point that my

3 learned friend made about standing, I disagree with him on that and I

4 specifically, in light of his comment on page 74, lines 15 through 17,

5 telling us what the change of position is, with the Office of the

6 Prosecution, I think we clearly have standing to make the same or even

7 different objection that Mr. Lazarevic may make with respect to the

8 Mr. Borovcanin's interviews so I will be making those before the Court but

9 the issue is not ripe for us until this moment to say that and we are

10 still waiting to gets a completed transcript of those interviews. But I

11 totally disagree with him that I do not have standing on that issue.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Josse?

13 MR. JOSSE: If Your Honour, I could broadly speaking support that,

14 Mr. Lazarevic at page 78, line 16, used the words both sides here. Of

15 course, he means the Borovcanin Defence and the Prosecution. He doesn't

16 mean the six other parties to this case.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that needs to be repeated by anyone.

18 Point taken. So one moment, please.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We've made it in time to communicate our position.

21 We don't see any real need for any debate tomorrow at this point.

22 I think the way we should approach it is to wait until Mr. Alistair Graham

23 testifies, as scheduled on the 17th or thereabouts, and then the

24 understanding is that all the submissions about admissibility in relation

25 to Mr. Borovcanin and in relation to other accused will be heard

Page 13530

1 afterwards, and then obviously we will need to decide on the admissibility

2 issue, and the statements, the interviews will not be admitted in evidence

3 until or unless we decide to, in which case, obviously, there will also be

4 an appeal and whichever way we decide it actually there will be an appeal,

5 I imagine. There is an appeal to be expected. All right? Yes,

6 Mr. McCloskey?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just housekeeping, Mr. Lazarevic's testimony, the

8 Prosecution didn't have any exhibits. I don't know if the Defence did.

9 Is that done? Okay.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah. They had one document only. Oh,

11 Mitar Lazarevic?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Kweku's witness. I don't think we finished the

13 exhibits on Mr. Vanderpuye's witness, I think it was Lazarevic.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Because he said he had none.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: We don't have any.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic?

17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. When it comes to

18 the witness Lazarevic, we don't have any exhibits for admission. The

19 document P312, which was used in this witness's testimony, has already

20 been admitted. We don't have any other documents, and I believe our list

21 has already been submitted to the Trial Chamber.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think we did state that before as well. I

23 mean, it was certainly pointed out to me by Madam Registrar, and I think I

24 raised it with Mr. Bourgon or with you. It was a document that had

25 already been used and tendered by the Nikolic Defence team. So I don't

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1 think there is anything else.

2 So that's it. All right. We'll resume you know when. But there

3 is -- I don't think there is a need unless any one of you sees any

4 significant need but we are certainly not going to meet to discuss whether

5 it's on the 65 ter list or not on the 65 ter list. Thank you. Have a

6 nice weekend.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of July,

9 2007, at 9.00 a.m.