Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13980

1 Tuesday, 21 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody. And on behalf of the Trial

6 Chamber I wish to welcome everybody, everyone back. I hope you've had a

7 good rest, although we are all aware that some of you have been working on

8 filing motions just as we have been working on draft -- the drafting of

9 some of the decisions which will be forthcoming very shortly. So

10 Madam Registrar, could you kindly call the case, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

12 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. For the record all the accused

14 are here. From the Defence teams I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes, I

15 notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon and I think that's about it.

16 Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer. Yes. I understand there are

17 some preliminaries you wish to raise, Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Good morning, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And everyone, Your Honours. Just for the

21 audiovisual people I've got some static in my headphones, I don't know if

22 anybody else does. But just for a couple of preliminaries, as the Court

23 and everyone is aware, we have agreed with the Defence to request that we

24 have the first week of October off, which is, as you know, according to

25 our established processes of giving a break to reassess and reassemble and

Page 13981

1 as that's proved, I think very helpful in this last year, I know everyone

2 unanimously requests that first week of October, after a good run from

3 today on. So I wanted to mention that to the Trial Chamber to put that

4 request out.

5 Also, as everyone is aware, we are trying to organise a videolink

6 a week from Friday, and if the Defence could --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm coming to that.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- work with us on that, that's coming to a head

9 and it's a difficult time difference and other logistical issues.

10 Also, and this -- the next witness is here and ready to go. He

11 had asked us initially for private session but in discussing it with him

12 he didn't have the necessary requirements and so I explained that to him

13 and he agreed to testify in public session. However, I would ask and he'd

14 ask, there was a document that he provided a witness and if I could go

15 into private session.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to suggest that. Let's go into private

17 session for a while, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 13982

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11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In relation to this break, the first week in

13 October that you are requesting, do you anticipate that ultimately this

14 could result in shortening of your case, Mr. McCloskey?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's certainly not going to lengthen it and --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if there is one week off, automatically it

17 lengthens the Prosecution case by one week.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the time that it'll save us and be able to

19 organise ourselves and as you know, especially with the witnesses that we

20 are bringing, it's a really logistical difficulty getting people here and

21 that's actually the more difficult witnesses have all been sort of pushed

22 to the end and so the more time we have to get ready and to work on that,

23 the better we are. And I think we'll very likely save time by having that

24 time, and I think -- well, I think everyone is aware that having that

25 break with the pressure and the stress that everyone is under is

Page 13983

1 absolutely critical.

2 I mean we've all seen it, how we get on a Friday afternoon or

3 evening session after we have been going week after week, and I think

4 that's an invaluable time savings, I think it saves in argument and it

5 saves in frayed tempers and I know we all appreciate that. And we've been

6 all together a year now and I think we've shown the ability to work hard

7 together and argue hard together and I think one of the reasons that we

8 have been able to do that and get as far as we have is because this

9 procedure that the Court set early on so I can argue for days in support

10 of that procedure, and I know the Defence can too, and I think in the end

11 it does save time and resources and emotions.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So you're requesting from the 1st?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe it's the 1st through the 5th, Monday

14 through Friday.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll think about it and we'll come back to

16 you in due course. Let's go into private session, please.

17 [Private session]

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Page 13984











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Page 13986

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm taking you back in time to when we received a

18 motion for guidelines regarding interviewing witnesses. This motion, you

19 will recall, was filed time back by the Popovic Defence. Our attention

20 has been drawn to the various parts from transcripts, particularly that of

21 the 11th July, when this matter was briefly debated, and going through the

22 transcript, it's our position that the parties declared themselves to be

23 in agreement with the Prosecution motion for a hearing and ruling

24 regarding interviewing witnesses, so according to us, that Prosecution

25 motion, which was filed to my knowledge on the 6th of July, is now moot

Page 13987

1 because hearing was granted and so there is no point in deciding that

2 motion. But there seems to be pending, however, the question as to the

3 manner of approaching witnesses, particularly as indicated in paras 9 and

4 11 of the Popovic motion.

5 Reading through the 11th July transcript, it appears that

6 Mr. Nicholls for the OTP had suggested that rather than hastening into a

7 decision on the matter it would be more helpful for all parties to

8 continue discussing what guidelines, if any, ought to be established and

9 followed, and we had agreed with you to give you this opportunity to

10 discuss amongst yourselves a possible list of guidelines which --

11 consensual list of guidelines.

12 What we would like to know, and of course if you're not in a

13 position to give us an answer now, you can do so tomorrow, is whether

14 there have been ongoing discussions between the parties on the issues

15 still remaining to be discussed and decided, namely in relation to the

16 manner of approaching witnesses, failing which you also need to confirm to

17 us whether we still need to hand down a decision indicating guidelines

18 ourselves. So, please, come back to us on this at the earliest, possibly

19 tomorrow. Not later than tomorrow.

20 Thank you.

21 Apart from what you said in relation to the next witness, there is

22 nothing else. All right. So I think, Madam Usher, you can proceed with

23 bringing the witness in.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I still have a bit of a buzz in my ear. I don't

25 know if it's my head or the system.

Page 13988

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I had it too. I have this knob which I turned

2 anti-clockwise and it disappeared. I don't know if you have a similar

3 knob.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, that seems to have helped.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Todorovic.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to welcome

9 you to this Tribunal. You're about to start giving evidence.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You're about to start giving evidence

12 and before you do so, you're required to enter a solemn declaration that

13 in the course of your testimony, you will be speaking the truth and the

14 whole truth. Please read the text of the solemn declaration aloud and

15 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Please make yourself

21 comfortable. You are now going to be asked a few questions by

22 Mr. McCloskey, who is lead counsel for the Prosecution in this case, and

23 he will then be followed by the Defence teams on cross-examination. Your

24 duty is to answer each question, whoever is putting it to you, truthfully

25 and as briefly as possible but as precisely as possible, too.

Page 13989

1 Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Todorovic. Can you --

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Can you for the record please state your name?

7 A. Dragan Todorovic.

8 Q. And can you tell us how old you are?

9 A. 42.

10 Q. And where did you grow up?

11 A. In Kladanj.

12 Q. And what is your occupation?

13 A. I work in the catering industry.

14 Q. All right. And everyone here knows that Kladanj is in

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. All right. And can you tell us, did you do JNA

16 military service?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember what year?

19 A. In 1984, and 1985 actually.

20 Q. And what kind of position did you have?

21 A. I was a foot soldier.

22 Q. All right. And when the war broke out in Bosnia, in 1992, can you

23 briefly outline for us the -- your military history?

24 A. Since I fled Kladanj and went to Vlasenica, I signed up with the

25 army of Republika Srpska.

Page 13990

1 Q. And what was that unit you first signed up with?

2 A. First it was the Sekovac brigade, actually the Sekovici brigade,

3 at the very beginning of the war.

4 Q. Okay. Was that similar to Vlasenica or --

5 A. And later on, it was Vlasenica. Actually, it was the same. I

6 believe that the two shared the same military post number.

7 Q. Okay. And after that time period at the Vlasenica/Sekovici unit,

8 as you described, did you move to another unit?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And when was that?

11 A. I believe it was in September, early September, 1992. A unit was

12 set up. It was an assault detachment with the Drina Corps. I stayed with

13 them for a short period of time.

14 Q. And then where did you go?

15 A. And then I went to the Special Police Brigade, the 2nd Sekovici

16 Detachment.

17 Q. So that would have been under the Ministry of Interior?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And what was your position in the Special Police?

20 A. A foot soldier, a policeman.

21 Q. Did you know Mr. Borovcanin, an accused in this case?

22 A. I didn't know Mr. Borovcanin at that time. I did not see him

23 around. I don't know whether he was in the position that he held later

24 on. But I knew him from my private life, from the municipality where I

25 resided. He resided there as well. I believe that he was either the

Page 13991

1 commander or the chief of police station. He was held in high esteem. He

2 was educated, influential in town. He introduced order to the police and

3 to the town. You have to know that the area had been ridden with a lot of

4 problems before the war and he restored peace and order to the area.

5 Q. And can you just clarify which town you're referring to?

6 A. Kladanj.

7 Q. Okay. All right. So and how long were you in the Special Police,

8 just roughly?

9 A. It was set up in March, and I stayed with it until mid-June or the

10 beginning of July. I don't know exactly. In any case, I believe it could

11 have been three to four months.

12 Q. And where did you go after those three to four months?

13 A. When I left the unit, the Special Police, that is, I joined the

14 Vlasenica Brigade, an intervention unit, there.

15 Q. All right. What did you do then?

16 A. I was with that unit until the moment I was wounded.

17 Q. When was that?

18 A. The 27th of July 1994, I believe.

19 Q. And did you rejoin the army after your wounding?

20 A. Yes, when I recovered.

21 Q. Can you tell us about that?

22 A. A unit was set up, the 2nd -- the 10th Sabotage Unit, and I joined

23 that unit. I believe it was either on the 1st of October or the 1st of

24 November, I can't be sure of that. I joined that unit.

25 Q. What year?

Page 13992

1 A. 1994.

2 Q. And can you tell us a bit about that unit, where it was located?

3 A. The sabotage unit was located in Bijeljina and in Vlasenica. It

4 was military post 7572/15 Sarajevo but it was located in Bijeljina and in

5 Vlasenica.

6 Q. Okay. And can you tell us what was the purpose of that unit?

7 What was the job of that unit?

8 A. That unit was used in depth of the enemy territory to secure

9 certain facilities or persons. It all depended on their importance.

10 Q. So the soldiers worked behind enemy lines basically in most cases?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. And can you tell us a bit about what you know about the structure?

13 For example, the 10th Sabotage Unit, under what jurisdiction of the army

14 was it under?

15 A. Well, it was under the authority of the Main Staff of the

16 Republika Srpska army.

17 Q. And which of the units were you assigned to in 1995? And you've

18 mentioned Bijeljina and Vlasenica.

19 A. It was the Vlasenica platoon. One part of the troops were

20 deployed in Dragasevac and I belonged to that part of the unit.

21 Q. Is Dragasevac a village near Vlasenica?

22 A. Maybe four or five kilometres away from Vlasenica, I'd say.

23 Q. All right. And was Drazen Erdemovic in the 10th Sabotage Unit in

24 1995 to your knowledge?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13993

1 Q. In which area was he assigned, which unit?

2 A. He also belonged to the 10th Sabotage Unit, but he was deployed in

3 Bijeljina. He had been signed up to the Bijeljina part of the unit.

4 Q. Okay. In 1995, can you tell us your rank, if any, and your

5 position, your job?

6 A. I was involved in the logistics of the Dragasevac unit, and I also

7 performed all the logistical support task for the Bijeljina squad. I was

8 in charge of the food, the arms, the accommodation, both during the times

9 when the unit was billeted in Dragasevac as well as they were sent into

10 the field.

11 Q. Okay. And so you went into the field with the units that you were

12 supplying?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when you went into the field, did your position change at all,

15 or did you stay as a logistics support person?

16 A. Throughout all that time, I was in charge of the logistics. I

17 made sure that people had food, that they had accommodation, that they had

18 breakfast in the morning, transportation to wherever they were being

19 taken.

20 Q. Okay. Let's go back a little bit to the -- and you'll find we may

21 repeat ourselves and you may get asked the same questions again. Please

22 bear with us. That's a normal part of -- we try to not do it too often

23 but it's normal.

24 Just go back a bit to this structure. Can you tell us who your

25 commander was in 1995, at the Vlasenica unit?

Page 13994

1 A. My commander was Mr. Pelemis. His deputy was a lad who had come

2 from I don't know where. His name was Andrija Borovic [as interpreted].

3 Q. And did you have any kind of a rank? I think I asked you that

4 but --

5 A. I had the rank that I had received in the army but I had not

6 finished any schools. We just performed certain tasks or competed in

7 various competitions and that's how we gained our ranks. Mine was

8 corporal, and this is what I have in my military booklet, but that wasn't

9 really a rank as such.

10 Q. How about Mr. Pelemis, what was his rank in 1995?

11 A. I believe that he was either the second lieutenant or lieutenant

12 in the Republika Srpska army, but he never wore any patches.

13 Q. All right. And can you tell us, as far as you know, who were the

14 authorities above Mr. Pelemis, that you were aware of?

15 A. Those were people from the Main Staff, General Ratko Mladic,

16 Mr. Manojlo Milovanovic. Mr. Petar Salapura. Mr. Tolimir.

17 Q. Okay. You've mentioned a few other people to us that I'll ask you

18 about as we go along, but let's start with who you've just mentioned,

19 Mr. Petar Salapura. What -- as far as you knew, what was his position in

20 relation to the 10th Sabotage Unit, if any?

21 A. I don't know, but he communicated with the sabotage unit the most.

22 I don't know what his position was. I really wouldn't be able to tell

23 you.

24 Q. And what branch of the army did you feel he was part of or did you

25 know he was part of, if any?

Page 13995

1 A. I'm not a hundred per cent sure whether he was a member of the

2 intelligence structure or the security structure.

3 Q. Okay. And you mentioned Tolimir, Mr. Tolimir. What was your

4 knowledge of his position?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was he above or below Salapura, to your knowledge?

7 A. Well, I saw Mr. Tolimir in Zepa the first time, and I believe that

8 he was a general. That was his rank. And I believe that Petar Salapura

9 was subordinated to Mr. Tolimir, at least judging by their ranks.

10 Q. Were you aware of any contact that Mr. Tolimir had had with the

11 10th Sabotage Detachment before you saw him in Zepa?

12 A. He never came to our unit. Maybe he assisted -- attended a lineup

13 but we never paid too much attention to all these officers. There were

14 always so many of them.

15 Q. All right. You had mentioned the name of an officer named

16 Mr. Beara. Do you know anything about Mr. Beara?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?

18 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, that's a lading suggestive question. I

19 don't think he mentioned that name at all, unless I just missed it.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Meek is right, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you need to rephrase your question. That's

23 all.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Did you mention Mr. Beara's name in your interviews with the

Page 13996

1 Office of the Prosecutor?

2 MR. MEEK: Again, Judge, I object. That's leading and suggestive.

3 He's indicated --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. We can keep on going around in

5 circles on this. At the end of the day he can always ask the question:

6 Which names did you mention to the Prosecution during the interview? And

7 then you can, of course, try to suggest names and to get a confirmation

8 from him. You go around in circles on a matter like this so at the end of

9 the day it doesn't get you anywhere. I mean, listen, we've all got years

10 and years and years of practice in a courtroom. You know that this is how

11 it works out.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think this is really a contentious point.

13 I can ask him to review his statement to see if it refreshes his

14 recollection to anyone else he may have mentioned to us or I can just

15 simply ask him the same question. I really would prefer to skip the

16 intricacies of the adversarial system, unless it's a real issue then I

17 think we should play by that rule.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we should move on. There are so many ways

19 of dealing with it, Mr. McCloskey. I'm not here to teach anyone.


21 Q. Sir, this discussion we've had, did this refresh your recollection

22 at all as to anybody else that may have had anything to do with your

23 experience as a soldier at this time period?

24 A. Well, I only met them in passing by. I saw them talking to my

25 officers. I personally never exchanged a word with any of the officers

Page 13997

1 that I've mentioned. Neither did they ever give me any orders.

2 Q. Okay. Had you mentioned Mr. Beara to the Office of the

3 Prosecutor?

4 A. Well, I did. I saw Mr. Beara on the Han Pijesak-Vlasenica road.

5 He was exchanging greetings with my commander but that wasn't a

6 significant moment at all. I only saw him there.

7 Q. And can you just give us a rough time frame when you saw him there

8 on this road? Before or after Srebrenica?

9 A. This was before the sabotage detachment, that unit. I can't

10 remember which unit exactly it was. It was either in 1993 or maybe 1992.

11 I don't know.

12 Q. All right. And were you aware of him having any contact with the

13 10th Sabotage Detachment in 1995?

14 A. No. I wasn't aware of any such thing.

15 Q. All right. Now, let's go to the time period in early July 1995.

16 And can you tell us, did you and your unit have any assignment related to

17 the Srebrenica enclave?

18 A. We received our assignment on the 10th of July. The task was to

19 prepare the unit to go into the field.

20 Q. And did you get a written order to that effect?

21 A. If we did, then it was the officer in charge who received it.

22 When he did, he would pass the assignment on to the troops. But the

23 whereabouts of the field where we were supposed to go to was only made

24 known to us ten minutes before we started marching, and it was only then

25 when we were made aware of the assignment -- what the assignment really

Page 13998

1 was.

2 Q. Are you aware of a written order that was general and was related

3 to this mission?

4 A. Yes. I was aware of that. I had a piece of paper that had

5 arrived in the unit, and I knew what troops were being sent out, and what

6 things had to be prepared by way of logistical support.

7 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document. It's P02869. It will come up

8 on your screen, but just for convenience sake I've got an original here

9 that I would like you to be able to look at as well.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could just hand it to him.

11 Q. And we can see that this is addressed to the command of the 10th

12 Sabotage Detachment and that this order to you was pursuant to a Main

13 Staff order of the intelligence sector. Do you recognise this document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And can you tell us what it is?

16 A. This is just some of the troops that were sent out on the mission,

17 on the 10th of July 1995. They went to Srebrenica.

18 Q. Is this a document you saw on the 10th of July?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And we see at the bottom that it's in the name of

21 Milorad Pelemis but it is signed by Franc Kos. Can you tell us who

22 Franc Kos was?

23 A. He was a member of the Bijeljina group, of the Bijeljina Platoon.

24 I did not communicate with him much. I did not know him. The units was

25 of a mixed composition. I'm talking about the Bijeljina Platoon. It

Page 13999

1 consisted of Muslims, Croats. There was a Slovenian, there were people

2 from Serbia, and in Vlasenica, we were a Serb platoon, all the people bore

3 Serbian names, and that's why we did not really trust them. We were not

4 very close. We didn't know how they had joined the unit, and how they had

5 left -- how they left the unit finally when the unit broke up. To this

6 very day, we don't know how this unit came about to be.

7 Q. Okay. Could we go into private session briefly?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.

9 [Private session]

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6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. McCloskey.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Thank you.

9 Q. And in 2004, where did you get the document from?

10 A. I had this document on my files that were left behind after the

11 war.

12 Q. All right. And you provided us some other documents as well,

13 and-- didn't you? And we may go over some of those.

14 A. No problem.

15 Q. Okay. Let's talk about, let's go back to 1995, July 10th, and we

16 see this group of people listed in the document. Did that -- and we see

17 your name on it. As far as you know, did that group of people actually go

18 to the area of Srebrenica?

19 A. You mean the ones that are on this list?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. And what day did they go?

23 A. On the 10th.

24 Q. All right. Can you briefly describe to us when you left your

25 area, where you went and what you did on the 10th?

Page 14002

1 A. We packed our gear in Dragasevac. We waited for the Bijeljina

2 platoon. We boarded the vehicles that we had at our disposal. We came

3 into the vicinity of Zeleni Jadar, where we spent the night, and we didn't

4 move anywhere from Zeleni Jadar. It was a couple of kilometres from

5 Srebrenica.

6 Q. All right. So it would be the morning of the 11th that you would

7 have woken up in Zeleni Jadar. Can you tell us what the unit did that

8 day?

9 A. Yes, yes. We had breakfast that day, made some preparations for

10 our future work and we were awaiting instructions and orders from the man

11 in charge for further movement of the unit.

12 Q. And who was that, the man in charge?

13 A. It was Mr. Pelemis.

14 Q. All right. And when -- I don't see his name on this list. When

15 did he join you?

16 A. He came later, along with Mr. Vukasinovic, the driver. They came

17 in a Golf car.

18 Q. All right. So what orders did you get on the 11th?

19 A. An order was given on that date to enter the town, the town of

20 Srebrenica, and to capture the town, that we were to be divided into two

21 groups and that we would enter from a plum tree into the town.

22 Q. Okay. And were you part of one of those groups?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Plum tree group.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


Page 14003

1 Q. And all right. And who was the command of your group, of your

2 small group?

3 A. There was no one heading. We were lined up. We had communication

4 between ourselves. We had Motorola radios and that is how we maintained

5 communication with our central point or centre of communications as a

6 detachment.

7 Q. So Mr. Pelemis remained in command of the entire group?

8 A. He was leading our movement, and he maintained communication lines

9 all the time with us.

10 Q. And just briefly describe what you did.

11 A. Well, if I told you now that we just -- that we -- it was just a

12 walk in the park, that would be ridiculous. We entered the city or the

13 town without any resistance.

14 Q. About what time did you actually get into the town?

15 A. I cannot tell you exactly the time, whether it was mid-day,

16 afternoon. Nobody paid attention to that.

17 Q. Okay, just roughly. Just your best idea.

18 A. I do believe that it happened in the afternoon.

19 Q. And where did you go in the town, any particular place where you

20 settled in?

21 A. We went down to the police station. We secured the police station

22 to prevent anyone from tampering with the documents, because that is where

23 the alleged staff of Naser Oric was. We spent all the time there keeping

24 the police station under blockade.

25 Q. Did you see any superior officers at that time?

Page 14004

1 A. None of these officers did I see prior to the arrival of

2 General Mladic. I believe that he came before General Zivanovic but I

3 don't know exactly whether he was there. I know that General Zivanovic's

4 brother was there but I don't know what he was doing. And a couple of

5 lads from the security detail.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned General Zivanovic for the first time. Who was

7 he?

8 A. He was the commander of the Drina Corps. I personally had no

9 contact with him. I never visited him. I never saw him. I wouldn't be

10 able to recognise him even today. So truly ...

11 Q. But did you know who he was at the time?

12 A. No. I didn't. I just heard comments from other soldiers. There

13 were not even soldiers from our unit. There were some soldiers from

14 elsewhere. They didn't have any insignia and we didn't know to which

15 units they belonged.

16 Q. Okay. And did General Mladic come by?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what if anything did he tell you?

19 A. He didn't address me personally. He exchanged greetings with a

20 couple of soldiers and the men that were there, soldiers as well. He

21 ordered us to continue the blockade, pending the removal of the material

22 from the SUP, and then he issued an order for them to move towards

23 Potocari.

24 Q. You say he issued an order for them to move towards Potocari. Who

25 do you mean by "them"?

Page 14005

1 A. Well, the remaining troops that were there. I don't know whose

2 units these were. Our troops were there. That's for sure. But I don't

3 know to which units they belonged. They didn't have any insignia. They

4 only have tricolour patches.

5 Q. The tricolour patches, what was that?

6 A. It was a form of the troops having some sort of recognising

7 patches when they embark on a mission.

8 Q. And what was your understanding of the orders of your unit from

9 General Mladic? Or from Pelemis or whoever you may have received an order

10 from?

11 A. He ordered us to keep the station under blockade until all the

12 important documents were removed and everything inside inspected. After

13 that, we were relieved of duty on the 11th of -- on the evening of the

14 11th and we were told to retreat and that we had 48 hours to search and to

15 take whatever we wanted.

16 Q. Okay. And I probably confused the issue. Who did you receive

17 that order from?

18 A. From the general.

19 Q. Okay. All right. And where did you stay the night of the 11th?

20 Where did you sleep?

21 A. We spent the night outside of town, or rather in the suburbs,

22 close to the road leading to Zeleni Jadar. There were three houses there.

23 Q. Okay. And what did you do on the morning of the 12th?

24 A. A driver, Zeljko Vukovic, and I headed off to Dragasevac in order

25 to prepare the receipt of other unit, that is to prepare the meals for

Page 14006

1 them, before their arrival.

2 Q. I'm -- the interpreter may not have gotten the -- may have missed

3 some of the -- where did you say you were heading off to? What town?

4 A. Via Zeleni Jadar, we went, I don't know the name, it's

5 Kragljivoda, Jezero, Skelani, Favkovici [phoen], Bratunac and Konjevic

6 Polje, Milici, Vlasenica, Dragasevac.

7 Q. Dragasevac is your final destination, back to your base, correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Do you know roughly what time you got to your base on the 12th?

10 A. Given that it's a long journey, maybe it was 12.00 or 1.00 but I

11 didn't pay attention to the time. The point was for us to get there. We

12 didn't have any time limitations imposed on us.

13 Q. And when you got back to the base, what did you do? Just briefly

14 describe the rest of your day there.

15 A. There were female cooks and gate-keepers. I inspected the

16 compound. We parked the lorry. We provided warm water for people to have

17 a bath in the evening. We set up billeting facilities. We prepared

18 dinner for them. We secured the perimeter.

19 Q. All right. And did any of the units return that night?

20 A. No.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. They returned on the evening of the 12th, and I'm talking about

23 the remaining troops, but I was there ahead of them.

24 Q. Okay. Understood. So did you get another assignment sometime

25 after you returned on the 12th?

Page 14007

1 A. No. Until the remaining soldiers came back.

2 Q. And then what assignment did you receive?

3 A. One of the vehicles went off the road, and Dragan from Trebinje --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the last name of the

5 soldier.

6 A. -- was killed and another soldier I think his name was Mladjen, I

7 think he was a Croat, was also -- was injured as well as Mr. Pelemis, and

8 it all happened on their way back from Srebrenica.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Todorovic, could you repeat the name

10 of the person that got killed in this accident because the interpreters

11 didn't hear it well.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragan Koljivrat, a private from

13 Trebinje, was killed in this accident and that's where he was subsequently

14 buried.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Can you tell us what assignment you received then?

18 A. This all happened so quickly. First the soldiers took care of the

19 injured. Then we took the private, Koljivrat, to the hospital in

20 Vlasenica, in order to obtain certain papers for the benefit of his family

21 so that they know how he lost his life. And we ourselves saw that he was

22 dead. He didn't need any treatment. We just saw that he was killed

23 instantly. He was just taken to the hospital in order for all the

24 paperwork to be done.

25 Q. And did you receive an assignment in relation to his death and his

Page 14008

1 family?

2 A. My duty was to take the body from the hospital, to notify his

3 family via the army phone, to establish a line with Trebinje and try to

4 locate members of his family in order to convey this sad news to them that

5 they had lost their son, and thereafter, the usual procedure was followed.

6 We prepared that body. We transported it to Trebinje. We organised the

7 burial. And I did it all myself with the assistance, of course, of other

8 soldiers who were with me there.

9 Q. So did a group of you go all the way from Vlasenica across over to

10 Trebinje?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember some of the names that went with you from the

13 unit?

14 A. I can remember two drivers, Zeljko Gagic, excuse me,

15 Zeljko Vukovic and Nebojsa Gagic.

16 Q. And who else do you remember that went along?

17 A. Drazen Erdemovic. Srdjan Brijezo. And another three or four

18 soldiers but I cannot remember their names.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, can you tell us all -- many people may

20 know but can you tell us where Trebinje is in relation to Vlasenica?

21 A. It's about -- it takes about six or seven hours to drive there. I

22 don't know how can I explain to you where it is. I don't know how many

23 kilometres the exact distance is. I didn't measure it. But I know that

24 it was a long ride. We had to take some roundabout roads that we arrived

25 after midnight where we met the family. They showed us the way to their

Page 14009

1 house. It was a house in the suburb of Trebinje. It was completely made

2 of stone, as I was -- as far as I was able to see.

3 Q. And is Trebinje very close to Dubrovnik?

4 A. I think it's about 20 kilometres, maybe less, maybe more. Because

5 I saw the road sign and that is, I think, where this sign post was that

6 HVO forces were deployed. That's what I heard. And one could see that

7 from the cemetery where this dead soldier was buried.

8 Q. Okay. And can you now tell us -- tell us what day was it that you

9 took this very long drive to the Trebinje area?

10 A. I believe the 13th.

11 Q. Okay. And what day was the actual funeral?

12 A. On the 14th.

13 Q. And after the funeral, did you go back to the -- to the family

14 home, as is the tradition?

15 A. Yes. We did. And that's what kept us there. His father offered

16 us wine and a bottle of brandy sealed with wax which is the tradition to

17 prepare such a bottle for a son and his wedding, and he was in such a

18 shock he said because we buried him today, I'm going to offer you this

19 brandy. I don't know what kind of tradition that was. So we stayed there

20 longer than planned, and then we went back.

21 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you another document that you gave us.

22 It's P02867. You'll see the B/C/S on the screen. I think it should be

23 fine for this. This is a -- obviously an obituary for Mr. Koljivrat. Do

24 you recognise this obituary? Is this something you gave to us?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14010

1 Q. Okay. And are the dates correct, as far as you know, regarding

2 his death on the 12th of July and the funeral?

3 A. Yes. He was killed on the 12th. He was 25 years old.

4 Q. And the funeral was on the 14th, as it states?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. I don't think we need that any further.

7 So as -- was it the -- your small unit that you've described with

8 the family that evening, was it everyone with the family, not just

9 yourself?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And just roughly what time did you leave the family home?

12 A. Maybe it was 8.00 or 9.00 in the evening.

13 Q. And where did your group go?

14 A. Back to Vlasenica.

15 Q. All right. And did you make any stops on the way, any long stops?

16 A. Well, we did. We stayed for a while at Pale. This is where

17 Srdjan Brijezo's family was living there. They had fled Sarajevo. And

18 they were living in the settlement made up of weekend cottages.

19 Q. And what did you do at Pale?

20 A. We took a rest there for a while, had a breakfast because the

21 family offered us something to eat.

22 Q. And then what did you do?

23 A. We proceeded towards our base in Dragasevac.

24 Q. And so just again roughly what time did you get back to the base

25 in Dragasevac?

Page 14011

1 A. It was in the morning, 9.00, 10.00 or 11.00 but definitely between

2 10.00 and 11.00.

3 Q. So this would be what date, then?

4 A. The 15th.

5 Q. Okay.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, it might be a good time to break.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll have a 25-minute break starting from

8 now. Thank you.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. I switched it off when I should have

15 switched it on.

16 For the record, Mr. Haynes is now present.


18 Q. All right. You had just told us that your group came back from

19 the funeral about, you said between 10.00 and 11.00 on the morning of the

20 15th. Can you tell us what happened, what you remember about the 15th at

21 your base after you got back?

22 A. When I returned to the base in Dragasevac, we parked the car, the

23 troops who were with me were relieved. I went to the office to search for

24 the commander because I had some gifts that his family had sent him. He

25 wasn't there. I asked a soldier at the gate where Mr. Pelemis was, and he

Page 14012

1 told me that he was either in Bijeljina or at the hospital in Belgrade. I

2 stayed there for a while. I tidied up a little. There were more troops

3 from the unit. They were idle. They were not engaged in any activity.

4 Q. Okay. What do you remember happening? Any arrivals? Anything

5 you recall?

6 A. After a while, Mr. Pecanac arrived.

7 Q. That's not a name we've heard before. Can you tell us who

8 Mr. Pecanac is, a name during your testimony, you didn't mention him

9 before. Who is he?

10 A. He was the head of security, general's aide de camp. I don't know

11 how I should put it. He was always with him. He carried out his orders

12 and looked after his security and he had some troops who provided security

13 with him.

14 Q. So when you say security for General Mladic, you mean personal

15 security?

16 A. Not personal security, but I believe that he was in charge of his

17 personal affairs. He looked after his security together with some other

18 troops that were around him.

19 Q. Okay. And it may be a difference between the English -- sometimes

20 English uses the same word for security. But we are talking about

21 security as in safety as opposed to security as in the security branch?

22 A. I understand, I understand, yes.

23 Q. So when you --

24 A. Generally speaking, safety.

25 Q. Okay. All right. So what happens with Pecanac?

Page 14013

1 A. An officer came with him but he did not enter the perimeter of the

2 base. Mr. Popovic. He did not speak to any of the soldiers. He stayed

3 by the car outside the gate and Mr. Pecanac entered and asked Obrenovic

4 for some soldiers. There was a skirmish between the two of them of sorts.

5 I don't know what they argued about. I didn't know at the time. He

6 started shouting. After the argument with Obrenovic he shouted at

7 Vojkovic to gather some people and to send those soldiers with him. I

8 don't know where he took them and I don't know who was supposed to give

9 the authority instead of the commander to let the soldiers go.

10 Mr. Popovic's Golf was parked there all the time. Mr. Popovic did not get

11 involved in any of those things, nor did he communicate with anybody all

12 that time.

13 Q. Okay. And who, as far as you knew at the time, was this

14 Mr. Popovic person?

15 A. He was a security officer in the Drina Corps. He used to come to

16 our unit even before the 15th. He would talk to the commander. They

17 hailed from the same area. They probably knew each other from before. He

18 worked in the Drina Corps. He was in charge of the security, as far as I

19 know. He never spoke to any of our soldiers. He never issued any orders

20 to any of us when he came to our unit, he would just greet us but he

21 didn't have any influence on our unit, as far as I know. He never asked

22 any questions or issued any orders to any of our soldiers or any soldier,

23 not even Pelemis. Maybe he conveyed some messages to him in their

24 conversations but he never issued a written order, an order that would

25 come from him; at least I never saw any such order coming from him in our

Page 14014

1 unit.

2 Q. And did you know what rank he was at the time?

3 A. How should I know? Those ranks were bestowed upon people over

4 night. I don't know whether anybody completed any education. I don't

5 know if he was a lieutenant-colonel or colonel.

6 Q. Okay. You had mentioned I think before that you thought he was a

7 lieutenant-colonel or a colonel, you weren't sure. Is that right?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Did you know his full name?

10 A. Well, it was 12 years ago. Even if I knew, I've forgotten. I

11 just know his family name. I believe his name was Vujadin.

12 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned that Pecanac had come in and gotten

13 in an argument with Obrenovic. Is that Zoran Obrenovic, one of the

14 soldiers with the 10th Sabotage?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And this --

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. All right. And did you actually see Mr. Popovic outside the gate

19 with his car or did someone just tell you that he was there?

20 A. The gate-keeper told us that Officer Popovic was outside. This

21 person who was working, providing security for the base, I suppose that he

22 must have seen his car and he must have assumed that he was there. I'm

23 sure he knew him.

24 Q. Did you, after getting this information, did you actually see

25 Mr. Popovic yourself?

Page 14015

1 A. I didn't approach the gate. I was standing some 25 to 30 metres

2 away from the gate. I was standing next to the garage door and the garage

3 was the place where Popovic [as interpreted] and Pecanac had that

4 argument.

5 Q. Okay. But did you ever see Mr. Popovic?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. And where was he when you saw him?

8 A. I saw him in town. I saw him when he came to the unit. I saw him

9 during certain events or lineups. He would appear together with the other

10 officers from the Drina Corps, when this was some sort of a festivity or a

11 celebration in the brigade.

12 Q. But on the 15th, did you see him?

13 A. I saw the car but I did not see him personally getting out of the

14 car or talking to anybody. That I didn't see.

15 Q. I understand you didn't see him talking to anybody but did you see

16 him in the car?

17 A. I could see a person in the car. I don't know whether there was

18 anybody else with him in the car. I didn't pay too much attention because

19 my attention was drawn by the argument. I tried to calm the two people

20 down but Pecanac ignored me when I asked Zoran what the argument was all

21 about and then he left the base.

22 Q. All right. Now, did the person you see in the car look like the

23 Popovic you knew?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The witness already responded to this question

Page 14016

1 more than once.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think so. I think this is a

4 clarification.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Where has he already answered that question

6 according to you, Mr. Zivanovic?

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: He already said that he didn't see Mr. Popovic.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's page 36, line --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We know exactly what you're referring to but the

11 thing is that going through the part of the transcript, I think definitely

12 calls for a clarification. So perhaps you can rephrase your question,

13 Mr. McCloskey, and put another one by way of trying to clarify what the

14 witness has already stated.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Do you recall telling investigators before that Mr. Popovic waited

17 outside his car, outside the base?

18 A. He did not get out of the car. He was in the car.

19 Q. Okay. Let me show you the --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, that's why I asked you to clarify

21 because when Mr. Zivanovic says that the witness never said that he saw

22 Mr. Popovic is basically not correct because the witness has already

23 stated that he did, in lines 36, page 36, lines 10 and 11. "Okay, but did

24 you ever see Mr. Popovic?"

25 The answer was: "Yes, I did."

Page 14017

1 "And where was he had he saw him?"

2 "I saw him in town."

3 So the reason why we asked to clarify because your question was

4 relating to the Popovic that he knew but it is not necessarily related to

5 the time frame that you were asking the witness about when you put that

6 second question.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can clarify the issue.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it needs to be -- yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can argue with it but I think we all understand

10 the point and I think we are --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, let him say what --

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: There is one mistake in the transcript at page 36,

13 line 9.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, let me get there, please.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The witness said the name of Obrenovic, not the

16 name of Popovic.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But what we have in the transcript is Popovic.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, but he said Obrenovic, Obrenovic and Pecanac

19 had arguments.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But unless someone points that out to us we are not

21 in a position to know because we follow the proceedings in English.

22 That's one further reason why you should clarify, Mr. McCloskey. And

23 thank you for pointing that out to us, Mr. Zivanovic. Because otherwise

24 we wouldn't have become aware of it.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think Mr. Zivanovic is correct. That is an

Page 14018

1 error. I'm sure the witness said that the argument was between

2 Zoran Obrenovic and Pecanac but I think he can confirm that for us.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


5 Q. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I want to show you some notes that the

8 Federal Bureau of Investigation took when they interviewed you back on the

9 19th of June in 2005.

10 MR. MEEK: Mr. President?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek?

12 MR. MEEK: I object to the procedure the Prosecution is going to

13 attempt to use to clear up a simple point in regards to Mr. Zivanovic's

14 objection and I think he can go back easily to the transcript of what he

15 just said today and clarify it like you had insinuated and I object to

16 using some statement when he can do it very easily by asking him one

17 simple question from his testimony on page 36, line 22.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't heard the question as yet. I don't know

19 if Mr. McCloskey by referring to this interview or notes resulting from

20 the interview are related to this issue or to some other issue. Perhaps

21 you can clarify that before we can decide.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. It's related to the issue of whether or not

23 the witness recalls Mr. Popovic being out of his car or inside his car.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: He clearly said that he didn't see Mr. Popovic at

Page 14019

1 all either inside the car or outside the car.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that needs to be clarified, Mr. Zivanovic

3 and if this is one way of clarifying it our decision is that you may

4 proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. And if we could -- I can show the witness his -- the notes in

7 B/C/S on this -- on this point?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it right? Was it the FBI?




12 Q. You recall being interviewed by the FBI, and if we could get some

13 help we'll just show him the B/C/S version of that.

14 And I'm sorry I haven't outlined it for you but if you -- it's in

15 the middle of the document, about the 11th paragraph, it says:

16 "A group of soldiers that included Major Pecanac, General Mladic's

17 aide de camp, was waiting for Todorovic when he got back to Dragasevac, a

18 senior officer named Popovic was also present, although he waited for

19 Pecanac by his Volkswagen Golf outside the driveway's gate."

20 Does that help you remember whether or not this Popovic person was

21 inside the car or outside the car?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic first.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone, please.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

Page 14020

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Switch yours off, Mr. Meek.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I cannot see the document on the display. Ah,

3 that's okay.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic, Mr. Meek?

5 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour, Mr. President, I just want to clarify

6 that on page 40, line 9 and 10, Mr. McCloskey has indicated that he's

7 going to show this witness some of his -- the witness's notes and that's

8 just not true. This is an FBI report. These aren't notes of the witness.

9 The FBI can write down what they want to write down. It doesn't mean that

10 it is the notes of this witness which Mr. McCloskey insinuated it was.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I said notes. I didn't insinuate anything. And

12 these are FBI notes as we all know.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I recall -- there is nowhere it says that

14 Mr. McCloskey said that he was going to show him his own notes.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is a standard FBI report of a witness.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: "Now I want to show you some notes that the Federal

17 Bureau of Investigation took." I'm referring to page 39, lines 10 and 11

18 and 12. "I want to show you some notes that the FBI took when they

19 interviewed you back on the 19th of June 2005." That's what Mr. McCloskey

20 premised --

21 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour, pardon me, but I was looking at page

22 40, line 9 where Mr. McCloskey said, "And if we could, I can show the

23 witness his, the notes in B/C/S."

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But I think it's clear enough. Let's

25 make it clear once and for all. These are not notes that were prepared by

Page 14021

1 the witness. They are notes that were prepared by the FBI; isn't that

2 correct, Mr. McCloskey?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Having clarified that, I suggest you proceed.


6 Q. Witness, does this help your memory at all?

7 A. Just a moment. If he had appeared, I would have approached him.

8 I don't know what the person from the FBI put in his notes. I stated that

9 the car was his, that a person was seated in the car. If Mr. Popovic had

10 come out, I would have approached him and said hello or he would have

11 approached us. I don't know why he was there on that day, the boss was

12 not there. I didn't really understand what he was doing there with

13 Mr. Pecanac because this gentleman Pecanac he would turn up out of the

14 blue every now and then whenever the mood took him.

15 Q. Okay. When you say the car was his, who do you mean? Whose car

16 was it?

17 A. At the Drina Corps, that he used to drive.

18 Q. Okay. And you also -- do you recall telling the investigators of

19 the Office of the Prosecutor that Popovic showed up that day?

20 A. His car, and it was only normal that he was driving it. I wasn't

21 driving it. But I didn't speak to him. I did not have any contact, any

22 conversation, any dialogue with the person in the car. He did not address

23 either me or the gate-keeper or any of the troops, whereas Mr. Pecanac

24 entered the base on his own. That's what I said.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic?

Page 14022

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: One sentence from his testimony was omitted in the

2 transcript. He said "or someone else" after the --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Which line on which page, please?

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is page 42, line 23, after first sentence, he

5 said "or someone else." His car and it was only normal that he was

6 driving it or someone else. He said it but it was not translated.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What was your answer, Mr. Todorovic, to the -- to

8 Mr. McCloskey's question?

9 The question was, "Okay. And do you recall telling the

10 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor that Popovic showed up that

11 day?"

12 In the transcript, we have this as the first part of your answer:

13 "His car, and it was only normal that he was driving it."

14 Who would drive that car?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The car was driven by the person

16 that the car belonged to. It was wartime. Cars were requisitioned or

17 used by different persons. It could have been a foot soldier on a

18 mission. It could have been the general. This was the car of the Drina

19 Corps that was parked in the garage and it was used by officers, and for

20 officers.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. McCloskey.


23 Q. Do you recall what you told the Office of the Prosecutor about

24 Mr. Popovic that day?

25 A. That it was his car and that it is possible that he was in the

Page 14023

1 car. I did not see the man personally. I never said that I'd seen him.

2 If I'd seen him, I would have said hello. I don't know how my words are

3 being translated because I know that Mr. Popovic did used to come to the

4 unit. I can't say that he didn't. But he never issued any orders to us

5 soldiers. Mr. Popovic never issued us any soldiers [as interpreted]. He

6 worked in the Drina Corps. He performed his duties. I don't know what he

7 did. I'm not aware of that. I can't tell you what he did. I don't know

8 whether he was in charge of security or operations or intelligence. There

9 were various formations, various detachments, but I claim with full

10 responsibility that Mr. Pecanac was the one, he entered the base. I

11 myself did not leave the base in order to see who was driving Mr. Popovic.

12 I don't know whether it was him or not. Maybe he had a driver. Maybe

13 there was another officer. But it was his car. Definitely his car. And

14 he was the one who used this car most often.

15 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you've previously just -- you just testified

16 earlier that Mr. Popovic was the security officer for the Drina Corps.

17 Now you've just said you don't know what he was. I know it's not easy to

18 testify but can you clarify that? What was he?

19 A. No. It's not a problem. He was a Drina Corps officer and that's

20 where his office was. I assume that he was a security officer, but I

21 never questioned him about his job. I can only assume that he was the

22 security officer of the Drina Corps. I suppose that he was not an

23 intelligence officer of the Main Staff. I was a foot soldier. I could

24 hardly tell the ranks and those changed very often. I know he was an

25 officer; he had his office in the Drina Corps. I'm sure of that but I

Page 14024

1 don't know whether he was a security officer or not. I can't be 100 per

2 cent sure. I am sure that he was an officer, though, but I never dwelled

3 upon the structure of ranks and things like that. You should ask his

4 superior who bestowed the rank upon him. If I'd had any contact with him,

5 if I'd cooperated with him, if I had collaborated with him then I would be

6 better suited to give you his rank and his official position.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's keep questions and answers as short as

8 possible, particularly the answers. This was long, drawn, unnecessarily.


10 Q. Do you believe Mr. Popovic was at your base on the 15th of July?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what's the objection, Mr. Zivanovic?

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It calls for speculation.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, it's a belief, it's not do you think or do

14 you speculate. Do you believe. Do you have reason to believe that he was

15 there on the 15th of July? We don't want to you speculate, Mr. Todorovic.

16 We just want you to give a truthful answer to the question that has been

17 put to you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not making any speculations.

19 What I'm saying is that it was possible that he was there because that was

20 his car but I personally didn't see him. There was a -- there was some

21 trees and there was 30 metres between me, where I was, and where he was.

22 He never entered, nor did I go down there. And he didn't address anyone

23 from the car. I'm not speculating. It was his car. There was a man in

24 the car who talked to nobody. And he didn't address anybody. Nobody

25 asked me any details, whether I saw Popovic personally when I was

Page 14025

1 questioned. I said that his car was there. I don't know the licence

2 number. The man was some ten metres to the side of the gate. Nobody

3 approached the car. I didn't. No soldiers did -- didn't. Mr. Pecanac

4 was with Obrenovic. I was some ten metres away from him. And after all

5 this happened --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's enough for us, Mr. McCloskey. You

7 can proceed with your next question.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

9 Q. I'd like to show you what you had said to the Office of the

10 Prosecutor on this point because it appears that it may help you remember

11 this incident. And it may be slightly different than you're remembering

12 it now but let me get that for you now so you can look at it. If I can

13 get the statement to the Office of the Prosecutor from 9 December 2004 in

14 B/C/S?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: While that's being done, Mr. Meek?

16 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour. This is not refreshing the witness's

17 recollection. He's trying to impeach the witness. The witness said,

18 never said he didn't have a recollection of it. In fact his told us his

19 recollection of it. It's very clear. There was a person in the car, he

20 couldn't identify that person. He never saw Mr. Popovic. And this is not

21 proper refreshing of any recollection of his own witness.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Meek, but I think if you read lines

23 18 -- from line 18, page 45, to line 5 on page 46, you will immediately

24 understand why further clarifications from the witness are necessary.


Page 14026

1 Q. Now, just, if you could hand that to him so he can have a chance

2 to look at it, this -- Mr. Todorovic -- begins with paragraph 9 is where

3 we -- where you start talking about this subject. So take a little time

4 to look at that. And -- now, in that statement, it says:

5 "Between 10.00 a.m. and 12 noon, Major Pecanac arrived at

6 Dragasevac, with a security officer, Lieutenant-Colonel, or Colonel

7 Vujadin Popovic. They arrived in two separate vehicles. Pecanac came

8 into the compound whilst Popovic remained on the outside. Pecanac told

9 Zoran Obrenovic to round up some men to deploy somewhere. I've never

10 heard exactly what he said but I saw that Obrenovic had a verbal argument

11 with Pecanac."

12 And then I'm going to just go to the part about Popovic. You go on to

13 say:

14 "All this while, Popovic remained outside the compound area. The

15 group then followed Popovic in a van which I previously used to travel to

16 Trebinje. Popovic drove alone in the VW Golf." Now, today, are you

17 telling us you told the Prosecutor all this and you told what you told the

18 FBI and now you're saying you never saw Popovic?

19 A. I saw Popovic but it's not written anywhere here that he alighted

20 from the car, that I communicated with him. There was a driver in the car

21 and I suppose that it was Popovic, but I personally didn't see him. It's

22 not written anywhere here that he came out of the car, that I said that

23 that he got out of the car, moved away from it, spoke to anyone. Only Mr.

24 Pecanac spoke to soldier. It says here very clearly his car, actually two

25 cars, Pecanac entered the compound while Popovic remained outside. Since

Page 14027

1 it was his car, I presume he was in the car. And I never said that he got

2 out of the car, moved around, talked to someone, because judging by the

3 car, the make of the car and the licence plate, it was his car. But I

4 didn't see him personally coming out of the car and I never said that. It

5 says clearly here that there were two cars, one was driven by Pecanac and

6 the other belonged to Popovic. I didn't go down to the gate to see

7 whether it was him 100 per cent. I only presumed that since it was his

8 car, he was the one driving it. I didn't say anything to compromise these

9 people. I didn't say anything incorrectly. It is my statement and it was

10 translated.

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Todorovic, you told us that you heard from the

12 gate-keeper that Mr. Popovic was outside; is that correct?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.


16 Q. All right. Let's go on to another subject. The argument you saw

17 between Mr. Pecanac and Mr. -- And I don't think we need that any more.

18 A. I don't need it either.

19 Q. Okay. And if you do need it, just let us know.

20 A. No problem.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I don't need it.

23 Q. Okay. Tell us what you heard Pecanac tell Zoran Obrenovic.

24 A. He asked him to give him a group of men.

25 MR. MEEK: [Microphone not activated].

Page 14028

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.

2 MR. MEEK: I'm sorry. Excuse me. I think the question has been

3 asked and answered. I could go back. I recall specifically this witness

4 stating that he did not hear the conversation, the argument between these

5 two individuals, if I'm correct.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: We got briefly into it. We haven't had a chance

8 to flush it out at all, and that's what I'm doing.

9 [Trial Chamber confers].

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It hasn't been elaborated more than having a passing

11 comments on it. So please go -- proceed, Mr. McCloskey.


13 Q. So you told us that you saw this argument. Can you tell us what

14 you heard of the argument, if anything?

15 A. At the moment this conversation was going on, but after Zoran and

16 I left the compound, I asked him what this officer wanted, and he said

17 that he wanted a group of men for a certain job. I didn't give the

18 permission for men because I didn't have an authorisation from the

19 commander Pelemis, because he was the one who can give direct order or

20 sign an order for anyone to leave the base. If anyone got killed without

21 such an order, it entails certain responsibility.

22 Q. I understand. What did -- what did Zoran Obrenovic tell you about

23 this job, in details?

24 A. No. Nobody talked to us soldiers about any mission, whether --

25 where the unit was going. Upon return from the field there was no

Page 14029

1 conversation about that because we had contracts signed as professional

2 soldiers with the staff. Therefore we didn't discuss where any group had

3 gone. Upon return we would just return the weapons and other equipment

4 into the depot. Whatever was to be used again was stored in the depot.

5 What was not usable any longer was written off, and that was how it

6 worked.

7 Q. Do you recall telling the Office of the Prosecutor that Zoran had

8 mentioned a particular place and meeting a particular person?

9 A. After Pecanac was giving order to Vojkovic, soldier Vojkovic, when

10 he shouted at him following the argument he told him to round up the men,

11 that he had a meeting in Zvornik with a colonel or whatever he was.

12 Q. And did you tell us a name when you spoke to us about what that

13 colonel's name was?

14 A. I believe that his name was Beara. That he had to see him.

15 Q. Is that what you told us, that he had to -- round up this group,

16 go to Zvornik and see Colonel Beara?

17 A. I didn't say that he had gone to Zvornik. I didn't say that men

18 went to Zvornik. They just left the base and went towards Sekovici and

19 there were five combat lines, one to Kladanj, Sekovici, Klisa, Boskovici,

20 but nobody asked me anything where the troops might have gone. I said I

21 didn't know. Maybe they were providing security for Pecanac and Beara.

22 Maybe they were providing escort for some other officer. I didn't have

23 any written order as to where to deploy the troops. Once Mr. Pecanac

24 rounded them up, he took them from the compound down the road which is a

25 fork road. One goes to Sekovici and one to Kladanj. That is what I said

Page 14030

1 on the first occasion when I was asked about this.

2 Q. And did you mention Mr. Beara's name to the investigator at the

3 OTP when he interviewed you on 9 December 2004, as you've just testified?

4 A. Yes. I said that I had seen him and I just said a minute ago that

5 I saw the man in Han Pijesak that he saluted my commander and I said that

6 he personally didn't issue any order of any of our soldiers when I was

7 there. After I had gone I cannot say.

8 Q. Just to clarify that you're not saying you saw Mr. Beara anywhere

9 around the base or Vlasenica on the 15th, are you?

10 A. No, no, no.

11 Q. At some other point in Han Pijesak?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. Now, did you - that day on the 15th - organise any

14 materials for any group to go out pursuant to what you'd heard and seen

15 happen, to get a group to go somewhere?

16 A. It was customary when a unit goes out into the field for certain

17 amount of ammunition and weapons to be prepared as support, if a unit is

18 dispatched to carry out a mission. In addition to basic standard issue,

19 machine -- submachine-gun can be added, a larger amount of ammunition may

20 also be added depending on how long they are going to stay out in the

21 field, also meals or sleeping bags, pads and stuff like that. All the

22 materiel normally used whenever a unit is going into the field as a kind

23 of backup supplies.

24 Q. Okay. And that's generally what you do. In this particular

25 situation, do you remember getting any materials, food or weapons or

Page 14031

1 anything else, together for this group?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us what that was?

4 A. I believe two zolja launchers, these are hand-held launchers. One

5 PKT. And a crate of ammunition. I cannot say exactly but I think there

6 was around 1200 rounds in each crate. These were rifle bullets. And also

7 the other usual stuff like food, rations and water flasks and things like

8 that.

9 Q. What's a PKT for us that may not know?

10 A. It's a submachine-gun, 7.62 millimetre, the latest version of 84

11 submachine-gun.

12 Q. Is it sometimes called an M-84?

13 A. Yes, M-84.

14 Q. Okay. And that's a bigger machine-gun than the automatic, normal

15 automatic machine-gun that a soldier might have?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And this ammunition you mentioned, which weapon was this

18 ammunition for?

19 A. Since machine-guns are issued as necessary, there is always a

20 crate of ammunition that goes with it. And it's already in -- they were

21 always stashed in the belts. Plus a crate that is given to soldiers as

22 kind of replenishment in case they get engaged in combat situations. It

23 depends on the actual situation on the ground whether it's going to be

24 used or not.

25 Q. All right. But you had mentioned specific -- I think you said

Page 14032

1 1200 rounds for a crate. Was that the ammunition for the soldiers assault

2 rifle or for the M-84 machine-gun?

3 A. I just said that a machine-gun already has bullets stashed in

4 belts. This was just an additional amount for automatic weapons or,

5 rather, automatic rifles that soldiers use.

6 Q. Okay. You provided the investigator with some pieces of paper

7 from a -- from one of your notebooks that helped talk about some of the

8 food and ammunition from that time, didn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And I'll show you the original pieces of paper and that

11 is -- comes out as Exhibit P02868, but before we get to sort of the

12 details, can you -- this is obviously just one little piece of paper from

13 one of those small notebooks. Can you tell us about this notebook that it

14 came from?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this a notebook you actually used during the war or is this

17 something that you prepared for the investigators?

18 A. This is an internal notebook, in Momo's absence that was used by

19 soldiers or someone who was my substitute, in case that any inspection

20 would come subsequently, I would have the proof of all the material

21 issued, food and bullets and everything else, materiel, in one word. It's

22 a kind of internal record that is kept in the storehouse, which says who

23 issued something, if I was not there, so these were the entries made

24 there. In my absence, they were noted down, and then I would write it in

25 the proper form in order for any possible inspection coming from the main

Page 14033

1 site to see how much was spent in terms of food and ammunition. I have to

2 have proper records corresponding to the consumption.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Who was Momo?


5 Q. Can you tell us who Momo is? You mentioned Momo briefly and

6 that's I'm sure -- can you tell us who that is so we understand?

7 A. Maybe somebody heard that but there was no Momo in the unit.

8 Maybe that was my pronunciation.

9 Q. Yes?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: At least exactly. I mean the transcript says, "This

11 is an internal notebook, in Momo's absence there was used -- that was

12 used" --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my absence, when I was away.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. That explains it. Thank you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.


17 Q. And -- well, the proper records you're speaking of, were you able

18 to find any of those records for the -- for the investigators? I mean

19 relating to these -- this sort of material specifically, the --

20 A. Are you talking about my records? My personal records?

21 Q. No, you said there were proper records where you had to write down

22 the ammunition and the food. Do we have any of those?

23 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

24 Q. Did you find any of those records?

25 A. You can look for that only in Bijeljina because everything was

Page 14034

1 sealed after we had finished combat operation and the war was over,

2 everything was sealed and the handover of materiel and equipment was

3 carried out. Everything was taken to the collection centre in Bijeljina,

4 of all the papers documents and other material. It was meaningless

5 without a proper form.

6 Q. But you did manage to find this one page. Did you have a whole

7 notebook when you gave this one page to the investigators?

8 A. Well, I had a notebook but I told you this was some kind of

9 internal paper used to issue financial aid to those who were killed, for

10 the burial. So there was just a kind of internal document. The person

11 who happened to be there would just note it down and then I would enter it

12 into a proper form and then my commander had to sign it as well. If there

13 was anything missing or lacking from the stocks, then I would be accused

14 of misappropriating it.

15 Q. Let's just talk about this little internal thing since it's what

16 we have. When you gave this one page to the investigator, did you have

17 the whole book as well?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So when you gave that to the investigator, you kept the book?

20 A. He asked me to do that. He asked me if I could give him that.

21 For me, this is a worthless paper. It doesn't mean anything. It says

22 pate, green peas, oil, sugar, salt. No soldier would take that into the

23 mission. Ammunition that was issued. This was some sort of aid that was

24 given to us by somebody.

25 Q. Okay. Well, let's -- we see that we have a date marked here, 15

Page 14035

1 July 1995, and then under it is fish, pate, luncheon meat, pepper.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recognise that handwriting?

4 A. This is a soldier's handwriting. His name is Milesic [Realtime

5 transcript read in error "millcic"], Milovan. He would stand in for me.

6 He lived in Janja. He got ill last year. He died of cancer, I think. He

7 was in charge of these things in Bijeljina like I was in Vlasenica. When

8 I was in the field, he would stand in for me or one of the gate-keepers

9 would. We had four gate-keepers in the units and if I wasn't there, one

10 of them could issue something of the sort.

11 Q. All right. Do you have any knowledge --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Madam Fauveau?

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very simply, there is

14 a mistake in the examination-in-chief. The witness said "Milesic" and it

15 has been transcribed as "millcic".

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milovan Milesic [Realtime transcript

17 in error "millsic"], also known as Malisa. He was from Zenica, from the

18 village of Drinjesa.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you both but again in the

20 transcript, we have "millsic". And I think he said Milesic. Yes,

21 Ms. Fauveau?

22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Maybe the best solution would be for

23 the witness to spell because the name is still transcribed incorrectly.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I said. I could hear him say Milesic.

25 Mr. Todorovic, can you spell for us the family name of this Milovan,

Page 14036

1 please?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I-L-E-S-I-C.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We still are missing the M, the first.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first letter is M.

5 M-I-L-E-S-I-C.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's clear enough now. We can proceed,

7 Mr. McCloskey.


9 Q. In looking at this, the document, this 7, 6, 2, AP, can you tell

10 us what that is -- what that means?

11 A. This is rifle ammunition for an automatic rifle.

12 Q. And then it says, looks like 2 point or 2 comma 400 KG. What's

13 that?

14 A. That's a mistake. It could only be KOM. This is 80 packages of

15 ammunition, so it could only be KOM standing for piece. It could only be

16 two boxes. This is a mistake. The KG is a mistake. It could only be

17 2400 pieces of bullets for the brigade.

18 Q. So 2400 rounds of 7.62 ammo?

19 A. Yes. Pieces for an automatic rifle. Bullets.

20 Q. Do you know if this reference which appears to be between the 14th

21 and the 15th by the note, has anything to do with the thing that was going

22 on on the 15th when ammunition and food was being passed out?

23 A. I really wouldn't know. I don't know why this ammunition was

24 issued. I recorded everything correctly, but it was not my place to ask

25 any questions, nor was there anybody to ask for that matter.

Page 14037

1 Q. Yeah. I understand that. I'm not worrying about the mission or

2 that. This ammunition, do you remember 2400 rounds of 7.62 going to this

3 group on the 15th? Do you remember that in that kind of detail or do you

4 think this might have to do with something else, maybe on the 14th or

5 something else, if you know?

6 A. No. I provided that group with one package of ammunition for

7 automatic weapons, just one package of ammunition I provided them with. I

8 provided them with 8 to 10 cold meat packages, water, a machine-gun with

9 the ammunition belts, that are reserve belts that the troops normally

10 don't use before they go out on a mission. I prepared all that for them.

11 Q. I understand that but do you think this reference to ammunition

12 and then the food on the 15th is a reflection of what you gave them or at

13 least part of what you gave them?

14 A. I gave them that on a piece of paper and Franc Kos signed that

15 piece of paper and the size of the paper is like this what I'm showing

16 you, Franc Kos signed that paper because he had a rank.

17 Q. I understand there is a more official document but does this

18 unofficial document reflect the same stuff that would have been on the

19 official document for this day that we are talking about?

20 A. Of course. All this was reflected on the official document, and

21 somebody had to sign that paper in order to confirm that things had been

22 issued.

23 Q. All right. Can you turn over the original and if we can go to the

24 next page in the computer, we -- there is one more entry. It's ERN 938.

25 And does that handwriting appear to be different to you than the previous

Page 14038

1 page?

2 A. It looks very similar to me. I would not place a bet on this

3 being the same handwriting but it's very similar and the colour of the pen

4 is different but I would say that this is very similar to the previous

5 one.

6 Q. Okay. So do you know who may have written this or do you think

7 it's the same person, the deceased person, or could it have been someone

8 else?

9 A. I assume, 90 per cent I'm sure, that it is his handwriting. Only

10 the colour of the ballpoint pen is different. The previous document is

11 different. It's somewhat bolder than this one.

12 Q. Just for the record, when you say, "His," can you give us the name

13 of your friend that's died?

14 A. The late Milovan Milesic.

15 Q. Now if we go down that list, now on the 16th, we see luncheon

16 meat, ammunition for M-84, do you know anything about -- well, you know,

17 before I ask you about that, let's get finished with the 15th, okay? And

18 then we'll come back to this.

19 What happens? You described you've -- that Pecanac has an

20 argument with Zoran Obrenovic, Zoran Obrenovic tells you a bit about what

21 is supposed to happen but what actually happens that you see that day at

22 the base?

23 A. Nothing unusual happened. The troops left the base, they had been

24 provided with all the logistical support, and they started marching on the

25 road leading towards Sekovici, Tisca, Kladanj. There are several roads

Page 14039

1 there. I didn't ask anybody where they were headed to. I didn't dare ask

2 anybody. I didn't know what their mission was. The commander wasn't

3 there. Without his approval, nobody was allowed to leave the base but the

4 officer took this responsibility upon himself, I suppose, and the troops

5 left.

6 Q. About how many troops from the 10th left?

7 A. Seven or eight maybe, as many as a minivan could hold together

8 with the driver. I don't know how many people can fit in an APC. Maybe

9 eight. And the APC is 4 because of all the equipment that they were

10 taking with them.

11 Q. There may be a translation issue so let me just ask you. Can you

12 describe the vehicle this group left in?

13 A. It was a Volkswagen minivan, black. This was given to us by a

14 civilian. I don't know why. Maybe to avoid any other duty towards the

15 army. It was not up to me to question that. It was a vehicle that was

16 registered to the Republika Srpska army. There is a paper trail of the

17 origin and the destiny of that people [as interpreted]. I did not

18 register it. It was not up to me. My duty was just to fill it with fuel.

19 It was a minivan, a black minivan.

20 Q. Okay. And was there any vehicle that left at the same time it

21 did?

22 A. Mr. Pecanac's vehicle left and the other Golf vehicle that was out

23 there, I don't know whether it was his or not. I didn't see. I can't

24 tell. I suppose that it was his vehicle, of this gentleman. But when

25 you -- if you don't see the driver, then ...

Page 14040

1 Q. Whether you say, "His," who do you mean? And we understand you're

2 saying you didn't see him.

3 A. His vehicle, Mr. Popovic's vehicle, but I'm repeating again, I did

4 not see the driver. It would be a mistake to claim something for a fact

5 that you didn't see. It was his vehicle, however.

6 Q. I understand. Okay. You've -- can you tell us some of the

7 soldiers that you -- that left that day in the minivan?

8 A. Franc Kos, I believe that he took the duty of the leader, although

9 the other one shouted at Brano but Brano did not have a rank. He was a

10 foot soldier. Then there was Gojkovic, I believe. Selanovic.

11 Boris Popov. Marko Boskic. And Mr. Drazen Erdemovic who joined the group

12 a bit later.

13 Q. Did you actually see these guys go or are you going off a document

14 or someone telling you?

15 A. I saw the people leave the base and get into the van. Everybody

16 standing at the gate could see that. And I myself had prepared the

17 equipment and all the materiel for the vehicle and the soldiers.

18 Everybody saw them leaving the base.

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. McCloskey, the witness mentioned just now name by

20 Gojkovic. Can I draw your attention to page 50, lines 7 to 9? In answer

21 to your question, the witness is reported to have said, "After Pecanac was

22 giving order to Vojkovic, soldier Vojkovic when he shouted at him." This

23 must be Gojkovic. Could you clarify? And if you could ask the witness to

24 elaborate on this issue, the shouting, yelling, shouting at him.


Page 14041

1 Q. First let's clear up who was being shouted at. Was that

2 Brano Gojkovic that got shouted at or someone else?

3 A. Brano.

4 Q. Can you tell the Judge more about that situation, what he was

5 shouting at, at him about, what you could make of it?

6 A. The shouting was about an order that only he was aware of,

7 Pecanac. The whole story was to collect people, to send them out on a

8 mission into the field. What he meant by the mission, whether it was an

9 operation, whether it was securing a person, a road, an elevation, nobody

10 told me anything about that, nor was I allowed to ask where they were

11 going. At that time there was BiH army troops all over the place. They

12 were breaking through and attacking everywhere. I could only assume that

13 they had captured a road, a person or threatened something or somebody.

14 That's why they were sent out of the base. I only know that they left the

15 base, that they had been equipped for a mission but I don't know where

16 they went. I know that Mr. Gojkovic did not have an order, that he didn't

17 have a rank, that he could not command any member of the sabotage unit.

18 He could not issue, he was not in a position to issue any orders to any of

19 the soldiers there.

20 Q. Okay. Among this group that you've named that left, do you know

21 who was in charge of the group?

22 A. Franc Kos, who was a second lieutenant signed for the equipment.

23 If hadn't been there it would have been Drazen Erdemovic who would have

24 signed for a document like this.

25 Q. And you had mentioned that Drazen Erdemovic had joined this group

Page 14042

1 a little later. Can you tell us what you know about that, the

2 circumstances about Erdemovic being a member of the group?

3 A. Well, he didn't want to stay on his own in the base. The

4 intervention squad had already left. Some of the troops were on furlough.

5 Instead of going to Bijeljina on his own, he joined the group that left

6 the base.

7 Q. I notice of the group that you remember leaving the base,

8 Erdemovic is the only one of the people that you've named that went all

9 the way to Trebinje and had been driving all the way back that whole

10 night. Is that right?

11 A. He didn't drive. Nebojsa Gagic and Zeljko Vukovic were driving.

12 I didn't say that Erdemovic drove. There were two drivers that went to

13 Trebinje. You'll find it in my statement.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... meant that they came back by

15 car. I didn't mean who was behind the wheel. That's okay.

16 A. Well, they came alive, thank God. They did not carry stones.

17 They were sleeping in the car.

18 Q. But Erdemovic was the only one that had gone to Trebinje that went

19 on this mission on the 15th?

20 A. He volunteered. He wanted to avoid staying on his own in the

21 base. Nobody selected him. Nobody picked him. He volunteered.

22 Q. Okay. And after they left, what did you do?

23 A. With a group of soldiers, I went to Srebrenica.

24 Q. To do what, just briefly?

25 A. To gather livestock for the unit because we thought at the time

Page 14043

1 that the war would go on for at least a year.

2 Q. And did you come back to the base near Vlasenica that night, the

3 night of the 15th?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And what did you see when you got back?

6 A. Everything was okay. The base was calm. All the vehicles were

7 parked. Everything was under control. I unloaded the livestock, tied the

8 cattle that we were to use, and the rest I distributed among the people

9 from whom the livestock had been stolen by Muslims in the first place.

10 Q. Did you see the vehicle that had gone with that group with Pecanac

11 and the other person?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where was it?

14 A. It was parked to the right from the house, next to a column where

15 the soldiers used to be trained.

16 Q. Did you see any of the men that had gone on that mission that day

17 that we had talked about?

18 A. No, no.

19 Q. Do you know where they were?

20 A. Those who had gone on the mission?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Or those with the Slovenian? Those who went with Franc Kos or

23 those who went with me? We are talking about two groups. One went with

24 me to Srebrenica and the others had been taken by --

25 Q. You said you've seen the van that Franc Kos's group took. Did you

Page 14044

1 see the men with Franc Kos? Were they around the base that evening that

2 you saw?

3 A. They went and they came back.

4 Q. Okay. So Franc Kos and his men were --

5 A. They came back before I did.

6 Q. Okay. So Franc Kos, Erdemovic and that group were back at the

7 base the night of the 15th?

8 A. I suppose they were in town because all the cafes were open. I

9 suppose that they had been given some free time to go into town. I did

10 not see any of them. I just saw the soldier who was on duty, and the

11 gate-keeper who was on duty as well.

12 Q. All right. Did you hear any information about what they had done

13 that day, which was the 15th of July?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. On the 16th of July, do you see Erdemovic or Franc Kos or

16 Brano Gojkovic or Boskic?

17 A. On the 16th of July I was in Srebrenica again. I did not come to

18 the base. I took the same group of people and I took the same truck to

19 Srebrenica.

20 Q. So that morning when you left from your base to Srebrenica,

21 though, I take it, the 16th?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That morning did you see any of the men I mentioned, Erdemovic,

24 Franc Kos, Brano Gojkovic, Boskic?

25 A. No.

Page 14045

1 Q. Were you aware of any mission that they went on that -- you got to

2 let me finish, sorry, we are almost through.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. So were you aware of any mission that those men went on, on the

5 day of the 16th?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And when did you come back to the base from your Srebrenica trip

8 on the 16th?

9 A. On the 16th, in the evening, I returned after the mission had been

10 accomplished, and I had done something for the unit. I collected some

11 desks and chairs. We unloaded that. We went home. And the unit was

12 supposed to line up again, either on the 18th or the 19th of July.

13 Q. What time did you get back to the base on the 16th?

14 A. Again, rather late.

15 Q. That night, did you see Franc Kos, Erdemovic, Boskic or

16 Brano Gojkovic?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. Do you have any reliable information on what if anything your --

19 the 10th Sabotage Detachment did on the 16th of July besides what you were

20 doing?

21 A. I've just told you, I don't really know what the units could have

22 been used for in the absence of the commander. If the commander had been

23 there, I would probably also have known where they were sent. Things were

24 what they were, so they could have been used to secure a road, a higher

25 ranking officer to make the rounds of the line that was kilometres long,

Page 14046

1 maybe one of the officers asked for security or escort. I wasn't there.

2 I don't have anything in writing, anything signed, to tell me where the

3 unit had been sent. If troops are sent somewhere, we would have known

4 that it was either Srebrenica, Vlasenica, Sekovici. This seems to have

5 been the doing of Officer Pecanac, and he alone knew where he was taking

6 these people or so it seems.

7 Q. Let's not speculate, and I don't have any other questions.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. We'll have a break in ten

9 minutes' time. Do you prefer to start now, Mr. Zivanovic, or after the

10 break.

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honour, after the break, thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have the break now, 25 minutes, and then we

13 start with the cross-examination. More or less before we break, just to

14 update the time required for cross-examination, I know that you have

15 given, Mr. Zivanovic?

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think we'll reduce our cross-examination

17 estimate.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: How long?

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: To half an hour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek?

21 MR. MEEK: Approximately 20 to 25 minutes, Judge.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic?

23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Not more than ten minutes,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic?

Page 14047

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: We'll have no cross-examination whatsoever.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Madam Fauveau?

3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] For the time being, I believe I will

4 need about 30 minutes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?

6 MR. JOSSE: Unlikely to have any questions, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes?

8 MR. HAYNES: If anything at all, five minutes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Anyway, we'll have a 25-minute break starting

10 from now. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Zivanovic?

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Todorovic.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. I represent Vujadin Popovic and I'll have some questions for you.

18 A. Go ahead, please.

19 Q. You told us at the very beginning that you resided in Kladanj?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell me what were your reasons for leaving Kladanj and

22 moving to Vlasenica?

23 A. The reasons were war, avoiding any threats. I chose a different

24 town to live in.

25 Q. Who did you feel threatened by?

Page 14048

1 A. It was not only me. It was a town where the majority Muslim

2 population. I believe that 80 per cent of the population were Muslim at

3 the time. Certain units had already been established while I was there.

4 It was only normal for me to leave and save my family. Everybody else who

5 left had the same reasons. Those who did not leave or join the BiH army

6 would be killed.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. Not at all.

9 Q. You've told us here, amongst other things, and I'm going back to

10 the event that took place on the 15th of July, that the group that was

11 sent out on this mission of which you did not know much, was provided with

12 zoljas as well?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Tell me, please, whether you know that the zoljas are normally

15 used only as assault weapon to open fire at tanks, bunkers, dugouts and

16 different things like that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would that indicate in your view what the destination of the group

19 was?

20 A. I inferred from that that it was either an ambush or a road was

21 being blocked. It depended on the situation on the ground, whether the

22 unit would be attacked or whether it would be engaged in attack launched

23 by them. It all depended on the situation. Zolja is used to enforce the

24 machine-gun fire. If the unit is -- comes under attack, if a person has

25 to be provided security for, or if a road is to be secured, if a combat

Page 14049

1 line is to be inspected, this was part of the duty of an officer to

2 inspect combat lines to see what the troops have at their disposal. Every

3 higher ranking officer had to be accompanied by their security when they

4 went on a mission into the field.

5 Q. Thank you. I read that you said this in an interview that you had

6 with the investigators of the United States of America, I believe that

7 those were FBI investigators?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You remember that, don't you?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Did you repeat the same thing before the investigator of The Hague

12 Tribunal?

13 A. This question, yes. No, nobody asked me about the use of the

14 unit they just asked me about the composition of the unit, who was

15 responsible for the unit, who was responsible person, what was the

16 military post, the command, who was the head of the unit and what was its

17 purpose; and I said that the purpose of the unit was fighting behind the

18 enemy lines and providing security for the facilities and persons,

19 depending on the situation.

20 Q. Thank you. However, the investigators also asked you whether and

21 what you issued to the group that was sent out on a mission?

22 A. I told them that I issued them with a PKT, with the ammunition,

23 rucksack for the water, the necessary food and all the personal effects.

24 I didn't know how long they would stay in the field, whether it would be a

25 day, two days or three days. Nobody ever told me that, they just told me

Page 14050

1 that the troops were sent out on a mission, and the normal procedure is to

2 provide them with all the necessity for 48 hours.

3 Q. And you said that to the investigators of the Tribunal when they

4 first asked you?

5 A. I believe that you will find it in my statement.

6 Q. I'm asking you this because in the statement that you're referring

7 to either by omission or by mistake, it was omitted that you issued the

8 troops with the zoljas?

9 A. I believe that this was omitted in the first statement that I

10 provided the FBI with. Somebody did ask me this thing, the others didn't.

11 I don't know who it was, who asked me and I believe that the FBI

12 investigators didn't ask me about zoljas.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I think you're going too

14 fast. Please allow a small pause between question and answer since you

15 speak the same language, and what you say needs to be translated to us.

16 And the interpreters, I can figure out, are finding it a little bit

17 difficult. So Mr. Zivanovic.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].

19 Q. Let me remind you that you told the FBI investigators and that has

20 been recorded in the statement, that rocket launchers were given to the

21 troops and in the statement that The Hague Tribunal investigators took, it

22 is stated that you issued them with a machine-guns and ammunition, but

23 this is omitted.

24 A. Nobody asked me. If I had been asked, I would have answered

25 them.

Page 14051

1 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you something else with regard to

2 your contact with the Tribunal investigators on the 14th of June 2005 in

3 Banja Luka. You provided the investigator on that occasion with certain

4 documents. Those documents were taken from you. Among those documents,

5 if you recall, there were some lists of materiel and equipment.

6 A. This is what every soldier in unit had. When they were enlisted,

7 they were issued with a piece of paper showing what they were issued with.

8 It was like a personal chart, a personal list for every soldier.

9 Q. In addition to these personal charts, there were some other lists

10 called the exit of goods and materiel, containing all sorts of food-stuff

11 like cold cuts and other similar things. I believe that you will remember

12 this as well.

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. What attracted my attention was the fact that in these reports, it

15 is indicated that you had handed over a number of such documents without

16 any breakdown of those documents, no lists of those documents were ever

17 made. I'm asking you this: Did the investigator ever suggest that

18 something like this should be done?

19 A. Yes, I have it on a piece of paper. I was given this when I came

20 to testify and that list shows some five or six items of the documents

21 that I had handed over.

22 Q. Five or six. I believe that we have the same paper that you're

23 now referring to. I would like this to be shown to you and I would like

24 you to tell us whether -- just bear with me for a moment, please.

25 A. It's all right.

Page 14052

1 Q. Can you please first look at item 1? This report is in English,

2 though, I don't have a B/C/S translation of this particular page, of this

3 report. I'm going to read it to you so item 1 says, "[In English] Batch

4 of invoices of issued supplies to the VRS 10th Sabotage Detachment to the

5 period July 1995, January 1996." [Interpretation] So in other words, you

6 have handed over a number of records relating to the materiel issued. Now

7 I have found a B/C/S version as well so you can look at it. I'm sure you

8 recall this.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did anyone ask you -- I'm talking about the investigators -- let

11 us make a list of these records and see whether there are some kind of 50

12 or 100 or 20 receipts of that kind so that we can know exactly what it is

13 that you handed over, I presume it is very difficult for you to remember

14 everything?

15 A. I remember very well. There is no problem. I handed over this in

16 Banja Luka and I received this paper only upon my arrival here containing

17 these items, but I know very well, even today, what I gave them.

18 Q. But you were not requested on that occasion?

19 A. Neither I requested this nor they.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Todorovic, Mr. Zivanovic is allowing a pause

21 after your answer but you're not allowing a pause at all after his

22 question. So, please, give the interpreters a chance to translate to us

23 his question before you start answering.

24 Mr. Zivanovic.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 14053

1 Q. Can you tell me now roughly, from memory, how many papers were

2 there that you handed over?

3 A. Can I answer?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. There were maybe seven or eight personal weapons cards issued to

6 the soldiers. There was a death certificate for Mr. Koljivrat, the member

7 of our unit who was killed. There was an extract from the Vlasenica

8 health centre confirming Dragan Koljivrat's death.

9 Q. You told us about items 2, 3 and 4 from this list.

10 A. There was a list of troops who were sent out into the field in

11 Srebrenica on the 10th of July. I don't know if the list was made as per

12 establishment, per formation, or in alphabetic order but I think it's

13 irrelevant. And I think there was another list, a kind of peril [as

14 interpreted] or donations from the municipality, the relief that they

15 provided in firewood and things like that but basically it contained

16 probably the names of members of the unit.

17 Q. Thank you. Let me draw your attention now to item 1, if you can

18 please look at it, I think you have it on your monitor or in front of you.

19 Let us just look at item 1. It says that it's a number of documents.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What I'm interested in is speaking about these documents, I

22 suppose that at the moment you cannot remember exactly how many of these

23 documents were and what kind of documents they were?

24 A. Those were these documents.

25 Q. Let me remind you by showing you some of the pieces of paper,

Page 14054

1 although I don't know whether they are all relevant, if you can please

2 take a look. Can you please look at these pieces of paper and say whether

3 these were the documents that you handed over on that specific occasion?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. There are quite a few of these papers dating from July

6 all the way to January 1996. I suppose that you cannot remember exactly

7 how many documents of this kind there were.

8 A. No, I cannot remember accurately.

9 Q. Thank you. That is precisely what I wanted to hear. You were

10 never asked to prepare a list of these material lists?

11 A. In Banja Luka?

12 Q. Yes. In Banja Luka the investigator didn't suggest that?

13 A. No, they just asked me if I can give these documents. This is the

14 paper that I used in my unit.

15 Q. Thank you for this information.

16 Let me ask you one more thing. You described to us that on the

17 11th of July, you and your unit were in positions around Srebrenica. Can

18 you tell me whether Srebrenica was being shelled during the time that you

19 were there? Were any shells fired at Srebrenica?

20 A. We arrived in Srebrenica when already there were many troops

21 there, since it was night, the night went by calmly, we spent the night

22 outdoors, there was not much shooting and there was no intense shelling,

23 which is otherwise normal when there is an operation in progress. We were

24 at Zeleni Jadar, we were able to see Srebrenica from that point.

25 Q. You didn't see or hear shelling?

Page 14055

1 A. No, no. There was just sporadic shooting, nobody took any action

2 during the night. There was no movement of units. Everybody was staying

3 put. There was just an occasional shot fired.

4 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

5 A. Thank you too.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Mr. Meek?

7 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President. I don't have any questions.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Meek confirmed that he has no questions.

10 Ms. Nikolic?

11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, just a few

12 questions for this witness.

13 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Todorovic. Having listening today on page 60,

15 lines 8 to 14 in the transcript, you mentioned a black vehicle. Was that

16 a van?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember what other kinds of vehicles did your unit have?

19 A. We had a WV [as interpreted] Golf; a red Mitsubishi; a minivan,

20 olive-drab colour; a military vehicle; a Fiat Ritmo, which was a civilian

21 vehicle used by the military; there was another yellow van used to -- for

22 transportation of food. There was a driver from Sekovici who was

23 collecting donations in Serbia or elsewhere, or from local people, so it

24 was also used for transporting soldiers who wanted to move. So their

25 personal belongings were taken in that van and I'm not sure whether there

Page 14056

1 was another truck, 110 or 150.

2 Q. Thank you. On the 14th of July, you testified that you were in

3 Trebinje attending the funeral of the colleague of yours who was killed?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There were a few members of the detachment with you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As for other members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, you don't

8 know their whereabouts on the 14th?

9 A. I don't know and I didn't have any communication lines with them.

10 We didn't have any communication devices because this is pretty far from

11 Vlasenica.

12 Q. [No interpretation]

13 A. I believe that a group of people from Vlasenica were on leave

14 because their houses were there, and they had a certain rash on their skin

15 so some were sent either to the first aid station in Vlasenica, whereas

16 those from Bijeljina remained in Dragasevac to take a bath and to spend

17 the night there because we had billeting quarters prepared there. And a

18 number of men were with me in Trebinje.

19 Q. In addition to what you told us about Trebinje and these are just

20 your suppositions, is that they spent the 14th of July?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please

22 do not overlap.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You're back. Please allow a pause between

24 question and answer.

25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. I'm going to repeat

Page 14057

1 the question.

2 Q. So please wait until I've finished and then give me the answer

3 after that. Apart from the group that was with you in Trebinje, you

4 supposed that other members of the detachments were in the places that you

5 mentioned on page 77, lines 10 to 15 in the previous answer that you gave

6 me?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The vehicles that you had, that you mentioned, you also have no

9 knowledge whether they were involved in any missions, I'm talking about

10 the red car, et cetera?

11 A. I don't know whether these vehicles were being used either by our

12 unit or if they were requisitions or seconded to another unit.

13 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Nikolic. Madam Fauveau?

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Can we show the witness Exhibit number 2868?

17 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

18 Q. Sir, if I understood you well, this is one of the documents that

19 you have handed over to the Office of the Prosecutor?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us how you got hold of this document in the first

22 place?

23 A. How I got hold of the document? This is a document that was

24 drafted in my unit, in my storage where I worked. This is an internal

25 document that I used to transfer the data from it to the paper that

Page 14058

1 counsel Zivanovic showed to me. I believe that's the name of the lawyer

2 who examined me before you.

3 Q. But this is a document that originates from your unit but it is

4 not your personal document.

5 A. This is an internal document which is used in the depot. Anybody

6 can use it, for example, gate-keepers or soldiers who were present, to

7 record what was handed out by way of materiel and technical equipment

8 while I was absent.

9 Q. And this did not had to be archived together with the other

10 documents that originated from the unit; is that correct?

11 A. It was archived but I don't know where the original is, I don't

12 know whether it was in Bijeljina when the unit was dismantled, whether it

13 was handed over to somebody else or whether it is stored together with the

14 other archive of the Republika Srpska army.

15 Q. Can you tell me where did you obtain this copy of this document or

16 when did you make a copy of this document?

17 A. This copy was made by the Tribunal. I had the original. I handed

18 the original over to them.

19 Q. And how did you obtain the original?

20 A. I had it. This is an internal piece of document that means

21 nothing to anybody. It only served me to transfer on to an official

22 document what was handed over on the date.

23 Q. Do you agree that this document does not mention the 10th Sabotage

24 Unit that was part of your larger unit?

25 A. This is a document that originates for the 10th Sabotage

Page 14059

1 Detachment although it indicates the Special Police Sekovici. I got it

2 from a member of the police that I shared the unit with and the heading at

3 the top doesn't mean anything. This document originates from the sabotage

4 detachment. This is my document. It was issued in my unit in the depot

5 where I worked, that I was in charge of.

6 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to show you another exhibit.

7 P2869 is the number of this exhibit.

8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show the signature part of

9 the document, please?

10 Q. The signature on the document is by Mr. Kos, not by Mr. Pelemis;

11 is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know why Pelemis didn't sign this document?

14 A. I wouldn't know that.

15 Q. You've told us earlier today, on page 15, line 19, that

16 Andrija Borovic was his deputy?

17 A. Bodirogic.

18 Q. Do you know why his deputy didn't sign the document?

19 A. I don't know. Maybe he wasn't there. Maybe he was not in the

20 unit.

21 Q. How did you know that Franc Kos was authorised to sign this

22 document?

23 A. I look at the ranks and the highest rank is the person that I

24 address.

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to go

Page 14060

1 into private session for the next couple of questions, if I may, please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14061

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] And I will no longer need this

14 document.

15 Q. When you were in Srebrenica on the 11th of July 1995, were you

16 anywhere close to Drazen Erdemovic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions for you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

20 So that leaves you, Mr. Sarapa. Go ahead.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Todorovic.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. Would you agree with the assertion that the 10th Sabotage

25 Detachment had 7.62 millimetre submachine-guns and M-84 machine-guns?

Page 14062

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it true that an M-84 signifies the year of production, and that

3 it has nothing to do with calibre?

4 A. Yes, that's the year, 1984, and the calibre is 7.62.

5 Q. So it's the same calibre like an automatic rifle, 7.62?

6 A. Only the charge is different.

7 Q. But the calibre is the same?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it true that members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment had combat

10 vests and that they had pockets on these vests where they could store

11 ammunition?

12 A. They had combat vests but they also had combat racks that they

13 carried on their right thighs and on the left thighs they carried

14 protective masks.

15 Q. So in any event, their uniform was such that with them they were

16 able to carry enough ammunition that constituted the combat kit.

17 A. Each member of the detachment had a combat kit consisting of 150

18 rounds of ammunition, two or three grenades and also depending on the

19 particular situation, they were issued with zolja or with an M-84, that is

20 to say PKT. Frequently, the practice was to load these kind of weapons on

21 the back of the vehicle, just in case it might be needed.

22 Q. Is it true that a combat kit for an M-84 machine-gun consists of

23 600 rounds in belts?

24 A. I'm not quite sure whether it's part of the kit or whether it's

25 how many rounds can be fired in a minute. I'm not an expert but I believe

Page 14063

1 that 600 rounds is a minimum amount for this type of weapons.

2 Q. So if a unit is issued with a machine-gun and the ammunition for

3 it, do you think that 600 rounds is a minimum amount of ammunition?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On that occasion, you issued this group of people with a

6 machine-gun and everything else that you mentioned during your testimony.

7 You also said that they gave them an additional crate with about 1200

8 rounds for automatic rifles.

9 A. Since there was another 1200 rounds for a PKT, I just added one

10 more crate for them to be encounter the situation on the ground, because

11 one crate of PKT ammunition is not enough.

12 Q. So if we presume that in the crate that you gave them, there was

13 additional 1200 rounds for automatic rifle, and if there were eight men in

14 this group, that means that each one of them was issued with 150 rounds.

15 That would be standard issue for a combat kit. That makes the total of

16 2400 rounds. If we take the minimum number of rounds required for a

17 machine-gun of the 600, would you agree that that would make a minimum of

18 3.000 rounds?

19 A. More or less so.

20 Q. You said that Pecanac had insisted on what you spoke in great

21 detail, we are not going to repeat this.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Pecanac was not a direct subordinate to the 10th Sabotage

24 Detachment?

25 A. No, he wasn't.

Page 14064

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Superior.

2 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So formally speaking, he didn't have an authority to issue any

4 orders?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. However, his orders were followed through based on his personal

7 assistance?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Sarapa. Is there any re-examination,

11 Mr. McCloskey?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

13 Mr. Todorovic, there are no further questions for you, which means

14 your testimony comes to an end here. You'll be assisted by our staff and

15 before you leave the courtroom, on behalf of my colleagues and on behalf

16 of the Tribunal, I wish to thank you for having come over and also wish

17 you a safe journey back home.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your hospitality.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have the next witness here, Mr. McCloskey? I

21 suppose, I'm afraid not.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. I cut their estimate in half and that still

23 came up with letting him go. So I -- we let him go.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That is understandable. Is there anything that

25 maybe the matter that I raised earlier on this morning about the

Page 14065

1 guidelines? Yes, Mr. Meek?

2 MR. MEEK: Not on that issue, Your Honour, but I see-- I think

3 there is a problem with line 25, page 84. Mr. Sarapa asked the question so

4 normally speaking he didn't have authority and the transcript says

5 normally speaking I didn't have the authority.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need to get the witness back or not? I don't

7 think so. I mean it's -- okay. We can live with that. Is there any

8 further business you wish or you are in a position to transact,

9 Mr. McCloskey?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe we -- well, of course the exhibits, but

11 I believe we have spoken to the Popovic team about the issue we had spoken

12 of, but Mr. Nicholls said we might have had something resolved but I can

13 see from the looks not quite yet. But we'll resolve that tomorrow.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's get the exhibits, then. We conclude that. Do

15 you have any exhibits? I suppose so, Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, the three that are on the list that we spoke

17 of.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? No objections. They are so

19 tendered and I guess I will give them the proper identification number.

20 Defence? Madam Fauveau? You wish to tender any documents?

21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic?

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That basically brings this to an end. Yes,

25 Mr. McCloskey?

Page 14066

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could just note that it's P02867, 68 and 69

2 that would help Ms. Stewart and our records to keep track of it.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. Then I think we can adjourn

4 until tomorrow. All right. You do not anticipate any problems in

5 relation to the next witness? Okay. Thank you.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.33 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of

8 August, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.