1 Wednesday, 29 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Madam Registrar and good afternoon,

6 everybody. Could you kindly call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci. I notice that all the accused are present.

10 From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Krgovic and

11 Mr. Ostojic. That's about it. Prosecution I notice the presence of

12 Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.

13 I understand there is some preliminary. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good afternoon, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, everyone. Could we go into private

17 session just briefly.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. Let's go into private session briefly.

19 [Private session]

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22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Before I give you the floor, Mr. McCloskey, we are

24 sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis. Judge Stole, although he was here this

25 morning, is not feeling well at all and he has asked me to relieve him.

1 So he hopes to be able to join us tomorrow. That's number 1.

2 Number 2, yesterday, you know that we had this inconvenient power

3 outage. We convened you all here for a short while at 5.00. We were

4 under the impression that the sitting was not being recorded. It now

5 transpires that it was recorded and since it seems that it was not

6 transmitted due to having been considered to be in closed session, when it

7 shouldn't, and we wouldn't have conducted it in closed session, we are

8 just declaring that it should be considered to be a sitting held in open,

9 public session, and not in closed session. So it should be made available

10 to whoever requires a transcript thereof. Having said that, let's go back

11 to private session for a while, please.

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24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Please go ahead.

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'd like to raise the issue of disclosing of

2 information report from June 2000 as to Prosecution Witness 109. He is

3 scheduled to testify here with a conference link on this Friday and I got

4 information report in a redacted form from the Prosecution. I'd ask them

5 to provide me with an unredacted form of this report, and this morning,

6 they refused to do that. I was notified that the redactions are related

7 to the address and some contact details of the witness but I see from the

8 same report that the witness refused to give any address or contact

9 details, so I need this report in unredacted form so -- for proper

10 preparation of my cross-examination, and I'd ask the Chamber to order the

11 Prosecution to disclose this information report in its entirety without

12 redactions.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We are talking of Witness PW-109. That's his,

14 nom de plume, his pseudonym. Who is going to respond to that?

15 Mr. Thayer? I suggest you first give information as to what the redacted

16 parts actually refer to and then respond to the rest.

17 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.

19 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, everyone. Just to be on the safe

20 side, if we could move into closed session or private session for this?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

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6 [Open session]

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Gospodin Lazarevic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You're about to start

11 giving the evidence that you would have started giving yesterday.

12 Unfortunately you know what happened. We had a power outage. I'm sure

13 that was explained to you and that's why your testimony has been delayed

14 for today. I'm sorry for that but it was beyond our control.

15 Before you start your testimony, you are bound by our rules to

16 make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth. The text

17 of the solemn declaration is being handed to you now. Please read it out

18 aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

21 WITNESS: DAMJAN LAZAREVIC

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. Please make yourself

24 comfortable.

25 Now, Mr. Lazarevic, you are here to testify on certain events that

1 the Prosecution alleges to have taken place in July of 1995. You will be

2 asked questions by the -- Mr. Thayer for the Prosecution and then by the

3 various Defence teams, but before Mr. Thayer starts with his questions, I

4 need to explain to you or caution you on a right that you enjoy under our

5 rules. It is being suggested or alleged that you were -- you lived

6 through some of the events that are alleged by the Prosecution, and it is

7 not to be excluded that questions could be put to you by either Mr. Thayer

8 or by any of the Defence teams which, if you answer truthfully, could tend

9 to incriminate you.

10 I am not telling you that there will be such questions but just in

11 case such questions are put to you, then you can -- you have a right to

12 ask the three of us up here to exempt you from answering such questions.

13 We have a choice. After hearing you, we can decide to exempt you from

14 answering such questions or alternatively, we can decide that in the best

15 interests of justice, we will compel you to answer such questions. So

16 this right is limited and it is not an absolute one. However, in case

17 such questions are asked and we compel you notwithstanding your request to

18 answer such questions, then whatever evidence you give in answering such

19 questions, unless it is false evidence, cannot be used against you in any

20 subsequent criminal proceedings. Is that clear enough to you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And were you alerted to this before you came into

23 this room to testify?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was indeed. I was prepared.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. And that clears the way

1 for the first question from -- by Mr. Thayer.

2 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Examination by Mr. Thayer:

4 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Would you please state your full name for the record?

7 A. Damjan Lazarevic.

8 Q. And how old are you, sir?

9 A. 53.

10 Q. And where were you born and raised?

11 A. In Celopek, near Zvornik, and I currently reside in Zvornik.

12 Q. And you identify yourself as a Bosnian Serb; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I just want to ask you a couple of questions about your military

15 service history. It will just take a moment. But please correct me when

16 I'm done if I've gotten anything wrong or you need to clarify anything.

17 When the Zvornik Brigade was formed, you began serving in the road

18 and bridges platoon of the Zvornik Brigade's Engineering Company; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you served in the Engineering Company until shortly after the

22 Dayton Accords or agreement was signed, is that also correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, prior to serving in the Zvornik Brigade, can you just

25 describe for the Trial Chamber, please, what your military service was

1 from the beginning of the war up until that time?

2 A. Well, before the war I worked in a company, and when the war broke

3 out, we were all mobilised. I was on the front line for some two months

4 or so. And when the Engineering Company in the Zvornik Brigade was

5 established, I was assigned to that brigade because when I served in the

6 army, I was in charge of roads and bridges in the Engineering Company.

7 That was my duty in the former army. And that's why I was assigned to the

8 newly established engineers' company in the rear of the brigade where I

9 was in charge of building roads, bridges and similar things.

10 Q. Okay, sir. Just one final question on your military service

11 history. After the war broke out but before the formation of the

12 Zvornik Brigade, did you serve in a TO or local unit of some sort at the

13 front lines?

14 A. Before the conflicts broke out? No. I didn't.

15 Q. Okay. After the conflict broke out but before the establishment

16 of the Zvornik Brigade, did you serve with -- in a local unit by the name

17 of the Celopek unit? Because everybody in the unit was from the area of

18 Celopek?

19 A. Yes. That was the Celopek Platoon.

20 Q. Okay. I want to turn your attention, sir, to 1995 and

21 specifically to the time period of July of 1995. The Zvornik Brigade

22 itself was headquartered in some facilities that we have been referring to

23 as Standard. But where was your Engineering Company itself headquartered?

24 A. At the beginning, we were at the Standard, at the command, and

25 then we separated and we had our premises in the so-called youth

1 neighbourhood or youth area. That's what the youth brigades had built

2 before the war, and that's where we were located after that.

3 Q. And in close proximity to this area where your engineering command

4 was headquartered, were there also some companies or factories or other

5 businesses located close by?

6 A. Around our premises, there were companies. For example, Glinica,

7 the metalworks called Univerzal, and in the broader area, there were some

8 other companies. The two that I've mentioned were the closest to us.

9 Q. And was the Glinica facility or factory also known to you by any

10 other names?

11 A. Birac Holding, the company Glinica of Birac.

12 Q. Okay. Would you please describe for the Trial Chamber how your

13 Engineering Company was structured? For example, who was the chief of

14 your company?

15 A. Major Jokic, Major Jokic. He was the chief of engineers.

16 Q. And do you recall his first name, sir?

17 A. Dragan Jokic, Major Dragan Jokic.

18 Q. And who served directly under him?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer. Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

20 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd just like my

21 colleague to clarify because he started his question and I referred to

22 page 12-- sorry, to page 12, lines 10, when my colleague is asking how the

23 engineering is -- company is structured, and then he follows with a

24 question about the chief of engineering. The two are separate and I think

25 my colleague should clarify that before asking questions to the witness.

1 Thank you, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right. Could you comply, please,

3 Mr. Thayer?

4 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Your Honour, I think the next couple of

5 questions, at least I hoped, would clarify that points which is obviously

6 one that's important and we have alluded to that before.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, both of you.

8 MR. THAYER:

9 Q. Now, sir, with respect to your Engineering Company, from your

10 experience and your recollection, in terms of the chain of command that

11 operated at your company, who was directly below Chief Jokic in that chain

12 of command as it related to your company?

13 A. Do you mean at the moment when the conflict broke out or maybe

14 later?

15 Q. Again, sir, I'm focusing on July of 1995.

16 A. Dragan Jevtic. He was the company commander.

17 Q. And can you distinguish for the Trial Chamber what the difference

18 was between the roles and responsibilities of the chief of engineering,

19 Major Jokic, and Mr. Jevtic? If you know, if you recall.

20 A. The chief of engineers was superior to all of us in the company,

21 and all the orders and tasks we received in the company, we received from

22 him. Actually, the company commander received those and distributed them

23 down the line to various parts of the company.

24 Q. And do you recall where Mr. Jokic, Dragan Jokic, had his office?

25 Was it at your company command near the youth settlement or was his office

1 at Standard in the brigade barracks?

2 A. I believe that he had his office in -- down there in the Standard,

3 but he was very much present in our headquarters. Whenever we -- he had

4 time he would be with us, with our unit.

5 Q. Okay. Now, below Mr. Jevtic, who was next in line in the chain of

6 command?

7 A. The deputy commander of our company was Slavko Bogicevic and he

8 also acted as the chief of morale, guidance but he was also the deputy

9 commander of the company, Slavko Bogicevic.

10 Q. And was there also a company clerk of some kind in your

11 Engineering Company?

12 A. I wouldn't know. He was the one who was acting as the deputy

13 commander, and the officer for morale. He drafted daily orders and things

14 like that.

15 Q. Okay. Do you remember an individual by the name of Sekonjic?

16 A. Vojkan Sekonjic?

17 Q. Yes, sir.

18 A. He was the company officer, the company desk officer, in our

19 company.

20 Q. And would you explain what his role and responsibilities were, to

21 the Trial Chamber, please?

22 A. He would draft the daily orders. He would also take attendance.

23 He would be the one to record who was absent, who was present, in the unit

24 on what day.

25 Q. Okay. Just a couple more questions about the structure and then

1 we'll move on to a different area, sir.

2 Was your company divided into platoons and if so, would you

3 describe how many and what they were called?

4 A. First we have the Pioneer Platoon; the second platoon was the

5 platoon for roads and bridges; and the third platoon was the platoon for

6 engineering works.

7 Q. And, sir, in July of 1995, did you have any particular position

8 within any of these platoons?

9 A. I was the commander of the Roads and Bridges Platoon, which means

10 that throughout the conflict I was in charge of building roads and

11 bridges. This is what I did.

12 Q. And in July of 1995, did you have a particular rank, sir?

13 A. I was the sergeant second class. This is the rank that I obtained

14 from the former army, and then, after different manoeuvres that I

15 attended, I got the rank of a staff sergeant. And that was my rank at the

16 time.

17 Q. And how many men were in your platoon?

18 A. 10 to 12, maybe.

19 Q. And who was your immediate superior? I know you've given us the

20 structure but when you were the -- in charge of that platoon, who was your

21 immediate superior? To whom would you report directly?

22 A. The company commander.

23 Q. Now, would you describe for the Trial Chamber, please, how your

24 company typically received its tasks? How would orders typically flow

25 through or flow into and through your company?

1 A. Every morning there was a briefing. The major would go to the

2 brigade command. He would attend those briefings. And after the

3 briefings ended, he would either come to us or he would call the company

4 commander or his deputy on the phone and tell them what to do and what we

5 were supposed to do. He would receive his tasks from the command and then

6 he would convey those tasks either directly in person verbally or over the

7 phone. He would tell us what to do and who was supposed to do it.

8 Q. And just so the record is clear, you referred to the major.

9 You're referring, I take it, to Major Dragan Jokic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What kind of construction equipment or heavy machinery did your

12 platoon have itself in July of 1995? As opposed, for example, available

13 to it from outside?

14 A. We did not have much, maybe two or three lorries and a 75

15 bulldozer, a Skip, which was a very small building machine, like a tractor

16 with a bucket, and also had the digging part in the rear. It was a small

17 machine that was not capable of engaging in any major construction works.

18 Q. Okay. I'm going to take a couple of moments with you to talk

19 about some specific pieces of machinery. So let's just take them one at a

20 time and I'm going to ask you some questions about each one. You

21 mentioned bulldozers, specifically I think you mentioned a 75 bulldozer.

22 The -- that piece of machinery, was it referred to by any particular name

23 or nickname?

24 A. Just a bulldozer, a 75, a Caterpillar machine. That machine had

25 caterpillars.

1 Q. And did you ever refer to it as just simply a Dozer or Dozer 75?

2 A. Dozer, bulldozer. Those were the names, the two names.

3 Q. And you described somewhat what a Skip is. Can you try to

4 describe it in just a little bit more detail for us, please?

5 A. A Skip? A Skip is a machine which can be used in construction, in

6 front it had a loading and unloading bucket, a small bucket, and in the

7 back it had a backhoe for digging canals, trenches, that bucket is

8 somewhat smaller, the one in the back. And the machine itself is somewhat

9 smaller. It's a small building machine, a small construction machine.

10 Q. And is it wheeled or is it on tracks?

11 A. Wheeled.

12 Q. And I want to use a specific term that comes up from time to time.

13 I don't mean to injure your language but have you heard the term

14 "Rovokopac" or "Kopac" and if so, what does it refer to?

15 A. Yes. Many people call this thing Rovokopac. This is a machine

16 that digs holes. You can use it in the construction industry, in private

17 life, for bigger-scale works, for smaller-scale works.

18 Q. Now, with respect to larger jobs and larger machinery that are

19 required for those jobs, did your company itself have larger Rovokopacs,

20 for example, or did you have to obtain them elsewhere?

21 A. We did not have any larger machinery. Whenever the brigade needed

22 something larger, then we would requisition such machinery from various

23 construction companies that had them, backhoe excavators, loading

24 machinery and staff. It all depended on what various companies had at

25 their disposal and that we needed at the time.

1 Q. Okay, sir. I want to turn your attention specifically to a series

2 of days that my friends and I all know that you're here to talk about.

3 Would you please tell the Trial Chamber whether you recall receiving an

4 order on a particular day in July of 1995 to go somewhere? And if so,

5 please tell the Trial Chamber what that order entailed.

6 A. On the 14th June, I accompanied my son, who was going to the army,

7 I was below the Standard with my son. My son was on his way to the army.

8 I went home and on the following day, when I returned to the unit, I was

9 given the task to go to Orahovac. When I asked why, they said, It is for

10 you to go and for us to know. Trenches are being dug over there. You

11 have to do something and you have to go.

12 That's how I went. I had to go. I didn't have a choice.

13 Q. Okay. Let me just stop you right there, sir. In your answer, and

14 I'm just referring to the transcript here, page 18, line 10, you referred

15 to the 14th of June of 1995. And I'm asking you about specific events

16 that occurred in July of 1995 and I just want to clarify the date and the

17 month that we are talking about here, of these events.

18 A. I'm sorry, I misspoke. I know what you're saying. I gave you the

19 wrong month.

20 Q. Okay. So we are talking about being with your son on the 14th of

21 July 1995; is that correct, sir?

22 A. Yes, it is correct, yes, yes.

23 Q. Okay. Now, you told us that you received this order the next day,

24 which would be the 15th of July. Would you please take the Trial Chamber

25 through the events of that day, from the very beginning, and let's just

1 start with where did you receive this order and from whom?

2 A. I got that order at the command -- at the company. Major Jokic

3 was not there but Slavko Bogicevic was and some others and Major Jokic

4 called and I was immediately sent up there to do whatever was being done

5 there. I had to go. And when I arrived there, actually on my way up

6 there, I came by a group of soldiers, somewhere around the school. There

7 were a few of them there. I don't know the exact number. And there was

8 some two or three soldiers with white belts. I proceeded to a well by the

9 road leading to Krizevici. When I arrived there, on the right-hand side,

10 I saw some meadows and a group of people or young men in that meadow.

11 They had been dead. They had been killed. And I was told that there is a

12 machine up there towards the flyover that had left on the 14th and that

13 was already digging the graves. I went up there and below the fly bridge

14 I did get a glimpse of the situation. I could not go any closer. I

15 couldn't -- I couldn't stand the sight, and I returned. There were other

16 people who were doing that. I returned on to the road, and then I

17 returned to the base, and then I went home.

18 Q. Okay, sir. I'm going to take you back a little bit and ask you

19 for some more details about this day that you've just described. That

20 morning, on the 15th of July, when you arrived at the company command, did

21 you encounter any company soldiers talking amongst themselves about

22 anything?

23 A. At the entrance towards the barracks, there was a group of

24 soldiers from a unit. They were discussing Orahovac. They said there

25 were some people up there that should be buried. I didn't pay much heed

1 to it and I went to the office where Slavko was, as well as Sekonjic and

2 the rest. I was told that I should go up there as soon as possible to do

3 that. I asked, "Why me?" And they said, "Well, it's you. Just go up

4 there. You've got nothing to do with it but you just need to be there.

5 You can say that your machine broke down and that you couldn't have done

6 any work today." But however, it wasn't possible for me to do that.

7 Q. Okay. Now, these soldiers who were talking amongst themselves,

8 were they Engineering Company soldiers, sir?

9 A. Yes, our soldiers.

10 Q. And you said that they were discussing Orahovac and that there

11 were some people up there that should be buried. Did you overhear them

12 saying anything about how those individuals died? Whether they were

13 killed in battle or whether they were killed some other way, under some

14 other circumstances?

15 A. I don't know. I didn't hear anything from them about how they

16 died. I just heard that they said that there were people up there.

17 Q. You told us that you left the compound. Were you told exactly

18 where to go?

19 A. To Orahovac.

20 Q. Were you told to go any place in particular in Orahovac?

21 A. From the place where the school is towards the Krizevici road.

22 Q. Did you go alone, sir?

23 A. A vehicle brought me as far as the school, and then I continued on

24 foot.

25 Q. Now, when you arrived at the school, you said you saw some

1 soldiers and some men in white belts. Do the white belts mean anything to

2 you in terms of what the position or role of that individual is?

3 A. Well, the only ones who had white belts were the military police

4 in our brigade. No one else.

5 Q. When you arrived at the school, how did you get to this other

6 location that you described that was near a water source or a water point

7 and the railroad tracks?

8 A. The first location was next to the water point, in the meadow

9 there. The other one was just below the tracks, somewhat further up. I

10 went there on foot. I went on foot from the school to that location after

11 I had come out of the vehicle.

12 Q. What was your specific assignment that morning, as it was relayed

13 to you by Mr. Bogicevic?

14 A. That I should go up there. He said, "A machine is already up

15 there and you report there, see to it that they are buried." That is why

16 I went there. As I said, I saw something under the overpass and returned

17 after that. I saw some people working there.

18 Q. When you arrived at the school, were you told anything about any

19 machinery that was already present in the area working?

20 A. At the base I was told that the machine had already gone up there

21 with the engineers. After that, once I got there, no one told me

22 anything. I wasn't down there by the soldiers next to the road. I went

23 on after I passed the school and to the location itself.

24 Q. Okay. Well, when you arrived at the school, how did you know

25 where to go? How did you know where to report?

1 A. At the base, I was told to follow the road to Krizevici. It

2 passes by the school. That's the main road to Krizevici. And they

3 said, "Well, next to the road you'll see where the location is. Just keep

4 going."

5 Q. And do you recall approximately what time of the day it was when

6 you arrived at the school?

7 A. Say, 7.30, 8.00 p.m.

8 Q. Was this in the evening, sir, or in the morning?

9 A. In the morning.

10 Q. Okay. When you arrived at the school in the morning, do you

11 recall seeing any VRS officers from any brigade, from the corps, from the

12 Main Staff, in the area of the school?

13 A. No. When we passed by in that vehicle, I saw a few of those

14 soldiers before the school. As for any officers, I didn't see any, be it

15 at the school or at the location itself where the thing was being done.

16 Q. After you walked to this other site, along the road to the area

17 where the water source was, can you describe in more detail what you saw?

18 A. The water point was the first location next to the road. The

19 other one is further up next to the overpass. I saw some killed soldiers

20 and civilians. I continued all the way up to the overpass. To the

21 right-hand side, I could see one part of it and then I returned and went

22 back.

23 Q. This first group of dead people, sir, you described as killed

24 soldiers and civilians. Why do you say that they were soldiers and

25 civilians?

1 A. Because I noticed that a few of them had camouflage uniforms on.

2 I presumed they were members of an army. And there were also civilians

3 wearing civilian clothes.

4 Q. And can you estimate approximately how large this group of bodies

5 was?

6 A. I don't know. There was a pile, a heap. I cannot tell you

7 exactly. Well, a group of them, around 20, 25, 30. I can't say. I can't

8 provide a figure. They were lying on top of each other.

9 Q. And when you continued walking, you've described a railroad track.

10 Is that railroad track on the ground, or is it elevated, sir?

11 A. It is elevated. That is the overpass across which the railroad

12 tracks pass on, go on to Tuzla.

13 Q. And how far did you continue along that road leading towards the

14 railroad tracks?

15 A. It's not much of a distance, perhaps 150 or 200 metres, between

16 the first and the second location, that is. That is my assessment. As to

17 whether there was more or less, well ...

18 Q. Well, where did you stop, sir?

19 A. First I stopped just before the overpass. I was standing there

20 for a short while thinking whether I should continue or not. And then

21 once I passed the overpass, to my right-hand side I could see a few

22 corpses right nearby, to the right side of the overpass, perhaps some 20

23 or 30 metres away.

24 Q. Now, you just mentioned seeing a few corpses as you were standing

25 near the overpass. Can you estimate for the Trial Chamber, thinking back

1 on that day as you saw what you saw from your location, how many corpses

2 approximately did you see at that second location?

3 A. A larger number. They were somewhat dispersed. They were not in

4 a pile. They covered a distance across the meadow. I don't know how

5 many. I didn't come close. I could see from afar that that group was

6 larger than the first group at the first location.

7 Q. And from your position near these railroad tracks, were you able

8 to see any machinery at work?

9 A. There was a machine, the BGH. It is a backhoe/excavator. It was

10 sent there on the 14th. I don't know who sent it up there.

11 Q. And this BGH, do you recall whether the one you saw had a

12 particular model number attached to it?

13 A. BGH, I think it was a BGH-500.

14 Q. And can you describe the size and what this BGH machine looked

15 like, for the Trial Chamber, please, just generally speaking, what's its

16 design?

17 A. It is a construction machine used to dig canals, building

18 foundations. At the front it has a bucket. It is a tracked vehicle. It

19 can turn in any direction. It is a construction machine.

20 Q. And does BGH also make a 700 model, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you have any specific recollection as to whether this

23 machine that you saw on that day was a BGH-500 -- I note that you say "I

24 think it was a BGH-500" -- or a BGH-700?

25 A. Well, what should I tell you? I didn't pay any particular

1 attention as to the number but I do think it was a 500 one, the smaller

2 one.

3 Q. And are both of these models larger than the Engineering Company

4 had in its own inventory at the compound?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. While you were in this area that day, did any other equipment

7 arrive?

8 A. There was another ULT 220 that came. It was the property of the

9 Birac Holding of the aluminum oxide factory.

10 Q. And this ULT 220, what kinds of machine is it? What does it do?

11 And if you could describe what it looks like, please?

12 A. It is a self-propelled construction machine with wheels. In the

13 front it has a loading bucket.

14 Q. And as opposed to the Rovokopac type of machinery, such as the

15 BGH-500, what is the ULT 220 designed to do? You've told us that the BGH

16 is designed to dig trenches with its bucket. What is a ULT 220 primarily

17 designed to do, sir?

18 A. It is mainly used to load construction material. That's its

19 principal purpose. But it can also be used for smaller excavations on

20 flat areas, but it cannot dig deeply.

21 Q. And --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, by any chance, do you have perhaps

23 photos of all these machines which we could show to the witness and also

24 to us and it would make everybody's life much easier?

25 MR. THAYER: I do, Your Honour, I do. I can show them now or I

1 can wait until a little later but if Your Honour wishes I can do it right

2 now.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it will speed up and facilitate the whole --

4 MR. THAYER: If we may have 65 ter 2069 on e-court, please?

5 Q. Sir, unfortunately this is the best photograph we have. Do you

6 see an image on your -- in front of you?

7 A. Yes, I do. It is an excavator, a BGH-500.

8 Q. And it is the machine that is directly in the centre of the

9 photograph, correct?

10 A. The machinery next to the person in the photograph.

11 Q. And is this the piece of machinery you recall seeing at Orahovac?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. THAYER: May we see 65 ter 2070, please? Now, that picture

14 really hasn't come out -- I have a better colour. It looks like we loaded

15 this -- this got loaded in black and white somehow. With Madam Usher's

16 assistance, if I could just place this on the ELMO? I see we are having

17 some technical difficulties.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Meek is stealing the show.

19 MR. THAYER: Okay.

20 Q. Sir, do you recognise this piece of machinery?

21 A. Yes. It is a ULT 220. It is a self-propelled construction

22 machinery.

23 Q. Now, where were you, sir, when you first saw the ULT 220 arrive

24 that day? Where do you remember being when you first saw it?

25 A. By the water point. I was there when the machine arrived, this

1 ULT 220.

2 Q. And in this case, sir, was it driven by itself or did it come on a

3 trailer?

4 A. By itself. It has rubber wheels and it moves by itself.

5 Q. And do you recall whether you had been told to expect this second

6 piece of equipment that day?

7 A. I didn't know about it. No one told me about it. This machine

8 arrived after some time, I don't know how much later, though.

9 Q. And where did it go, sir?

10 A. To another location.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Or to the other

12 location.

13 A. There were some people there were the public utility company.

14 They loaded bodies on to the bucket and the machine would take them away.

15 Q. And where did the machine take those bodies, sir?

16 A. To the mass grave that had been dug out by the BGH-500.

17 Q. And the bodies that were loaded on to this ULT 220, which bodies

18 were these, sir? Were these the bodies that you had described earlier

19 encountering when you first arrived at this scene or were they other

20 bodies?

21 A. It was at the other location. As for the group of killed people,

22 the dispersed one, they were up there and I saw that some of them were

23 uniformed and that others were civilians.

24 Q. Okay. Let me just try to clarify this in the couple of minutes

25 that we have before the break. You say you saw members of the public

1 utility company loading bodies. First of all, which public utility

2 company are we talking about, sir?

3 A. The public utility company of Zvornik.

4 Q. And where did you see them loading these bodies on to the ULT 220?

5 A. Once the ULT has arrived, they started loading the bodies, and

6 then I went away. I went up to the school, and they continued their work

7 by themselves. I did not return. And once they were done with it, they

8 returned to their respective bases.

9 Q. Okay. Sir, the bodies that you saw the public utility workers

10 loading on to the ULT, were those bodies bodies from the smaller group

11 that you described seeing first or were they bodies from some other

12 location or some other group?

13 A. It was the other location, up there. Since the machine was first

14 working at the other location.

15 Q. Beyond the railroad tracks is what you're saying?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, should we take the break?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We can take the break now. It will be of 25

19 minutes. Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

22 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, may I proceed?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Thayer.

24 MR. THAYER: Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, you recall going back a few minutes ago when you were shown

1 the photograph of the BGH digger. Do you recall the colour of the digger,

2 sir, as you saw it on the 15th of July?

3 A. Yellow.

4 Q. And do you recall the colour of the ULT 220 that you saw on the

5 15th of July?

6 A. Also yellow.

7 Q. Now, sir, what was your reaction when you saw all of these bodies

8 at the upper site?

9 A. Well, not pleasant, not comfortable.

10 Q. Prior to travelling to that site, both near the water point and

11 beyond the railroad, had you received any information, either overheard

12 anyone speaking or heard anything, about executions taking place in

13 Orahovac on the 14th?

14 A. I heard in the unit that what had been done had to be buried, that

15 people had to be buried up there.

16 Q. Now, you told us earlier in your testimony that your reaction to

17 receiving the order was, "Why me? Why do I have to go?" Was it your

18 understanding that you were --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was it your understanding that you were being sent to oversee the

21 burial of people who had been executed?

22 A. They sent me to be by the machine in case something went wrong, in

23 case one of the machines broke down, so I was there to intervene and they

24 told me, "You have nothing to do with what's going on there." I did go

25 there but I couldn't stand the sight very long, so I went back.

1 Q. Sir, based on your experience in the Engineering Company, what was

2 your understanding of the relationship between the public utilities entity

3 and the civil protection entity in the Zvornik municipality?

4 A. The public utility company was established, we all knew why, and

5 we knew what the public utility company's function was in the

6 municipality. Now, as to why they sent those older people there to bury

7 these other people, to collect them in the bucket and to carry them to the

8 graves, I don't know.

9 Q. Okay. Well, let me just ask you this, sir: What is your

10 understanding of what the civil protection people did in the Zvornik

11 municipality? What was the purpose of civil protection?

12 A. Well, the civil protection, the word is self-explanatory. It's to

13 provide assistance and help in case of fire, a natural disaster or similar

14 things. People would gather to help other people in certain parts of

15 town, in local communes, whereas the local utility company would be

16 engaged in all sorts of municipal activities, collecting garbage, cleaning

17 the town and things like that.

18 Q. Sir, do you recall who was operating these two machines when you

19 were at the site near Orahovac?

20 A. The BGH-500 was operated by Cvijetin Ristanovic, the machine

21 operator, I believe. His profession was handling construction machinery.

22 That was his position in the company where he had worked before the war

23 and later on. As for the other machine, the ULT 220, which had come from

24 the Glinica Birac company, was operated by somebody called Rade but I

25 can't recall his family name.

1 Q. Okay. How long would you estimate you stayed at this location,

2 whether it was near the water source or up near the railroad? How long

3 did you stay in that general area?

4 A. I left earlier. I went on to -- on foot down to the school. A

5 car came by from the line near Krizevici. The others remained to finish

6 the job. And then they themselves retired to the base. But I don't know

7 when that was. I don't know how late it was when they arrived. I believe

8 that they worked until the dusk. The following day when I arrived at the

9 unit, they told me that they had finished around 6.00 or 7.00 or

10 thereabouts.

11 Q. Now, how long would you estimate you were in Orahovac on the 15th

12 of July, from the time you arrived at the school to the time you left in

13 that vehicle to return to the compound?

14 A. I could not stand the sight. That's why I went back to the

15 school. There was an unpleasant scent in the air. And I must have spent

16 about three or four hours in the whole area, walking to and fro the school

17 and the water fountain.

18 Q. And when you returned to your company, did you report to anyone,

19 sir?

20 A. No, I didn't. I don't even remember whether anybody was in the

21 office, whether Slavko was there or anybody else. I returned and then I

22 went back home.

23 Q. Do you remember speaking to anybody at the company compound

24 about --

25 A. No.

1 Q. Okay. Before we move on, let's look at 65 ter 1705.

2 Sir, do you see an image in front of you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Take your time and get acquainted with it, and when you think you

5 know or recognise what you're looking at, please just let us know and I'm

6 going to ask you some questions about it.

7 A. Yes, I can see everything well.

8 Q. Okay. Can you just generally describe what this photograph

9 depicts?

10 A. This is the place where the mass graves are, the two graves, the

11 grave number 1 and the grave number 2. This is the road leading up to

12 Krizevici.

13 Q. Can I just interrupt you for a second and ask Madam Usher to hand

14 you the pen that I warned you might be coming.

15 Would you mark with an X where the water source was that you

16 stated was close to the road?

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And would you please draw a circle to indicate the area where you

19 saw the first group of bodies that you told us about? And if you could

20 just put a number 1 inside that circle for us, please?

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. And if you could draw another circle and indicate the area in

23 which you say you saw the bodies dispersed, and if you could mark that

24 area with a number 2, please?

25 A. [Marks]

1 Q. And if you would, just place your initials on the area where you

2 were standing when you came closest to seeing the bodies in area number 2.

3 A. [Marks] Here.

4 Q. And if you would just write your initials there, please, there,

5 sir.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And if you would, just put today's date on the lower right-hand

8 corner. And today is the 29th of August.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you, sir.

11 MR. THAYER: I think we can save this. And we are done with this

12 exhibit.

13 Q. Sir, at some point did you receive another assignment similar to

14 the one that you were given on July 15th?

15 A. Yes. On the following day, when I arrived at the unit, on the

16 16th, that was, I was again said to go to Kozluk for the same reason.

17 What had been done had been done, and then they told Milos Mitrovic to

18 take the small Skip there.

19 Q. Okay. And, sir, when you say what had been done had been done,

20 please tell the Trial Chamber -- I know it might be difficult -- just tell

21 the Trial Chamber what that means.

22 A. It means that people were executed at that location, and then I

23 had to go subsequently to finish the job off, to bury the people.

24 Q. Do you recall who gave you this order to go to Kozluk?

25 A. When I was at the unit, Slavko was there, Major Jokic was not

1 there, he was not at the unit, and Sekonjic was there and an order came

2 from Milos to go there with a small machine and for me to also go there to

3 bury the bodies. They were in the crevices, in the field. Nothing had to

4 be dug. Just the earth had to be put over the bodies.

5 Q. Okay. We'll get to that in just a few seconds, sir. Just one

6 question. Where did this order to you and the order to Mr. Mitrovic

7 originate, sir?

8 A. I believe that Slavko sent Milos, Slavko Bogicevic sent Milos

9 there. And I myself was told that I should also go there when I came in

10 front of the office. I was told to be there as well. I was told that in

11 the office. I don't know whether it was Slavko Bogicevic or Sekonjic, but

12 one of them told me, "The major had told you to go there to finish the job

13 off."

14 Q. And did you travel to Kozluk by yourself, sir?

15 A. I was not alone. I was driven in a TAM lorry, TAM 75, which was a

16 military vehicle. The driver drove me there, and then I proceeded on foot

17 to the location because it was not easy to get to that location because of

18 the stench that was spreading around.

19 Q. Now, do you recall approximately what time you arrived at this

20 location?

21 A. Around 8.00 or thereabouts, in the morning again.

22 Q. And would you please describe, as best as you can, what this area

23 that you came to looked like, where was it located, what was the ground

24 like when you arrived there?

25 A. It was the location where the gravel was being dug for the

1 construction industry. That's the kind of the terrain. There were holes

2 in the ground from which gravels used to be excavated from, and all that

3 was there. Somebody had also brought broken glass in one of the crevices

4 there was broken glass. I believe that it had come from the Kozluk glass

5 factory, the broken glass would be transported from the factory and

6 unloaded in that same gravel field.

7 Q. Okay. You referred to a factory in Kozluk, sir. In fact, as you

8 travelled to this area where the gravel pits were, did you have to pass

9 any particular factory to get there?

10 A. By the Vitinka Kozluk mineral water plant.

11 Q. And is that the company to which you were just referring when, as

12 I see it here on the transcript, it's referred to as the Kozluk glass

13 factory?

14 A. No. The factory produced mineral water and they probably used

15 glass bottles to bottle the water, and when whatever glass got broken in

16 the process would be deposited in those gravel pits, I suppose.

17 Q. Okay. And do you recall what colour the glass was that you saw,

18 sir?

19 A. The bottles would predominantly be either white or green. The

20 white, however, prevailed. There was some green glass, however, but I

21 didn't pay too much heed to the site. I just passed by that pit.

22 Q. And was this location close to a water source or a body of water?

23 A. In the immediate vicinity, maybe 20 or 30 metres away, is the bed

24 of the Drina River.

25 Q. Now, can you describe where you saw the bodies and the condition

1 of the bodies, for the Trial Chamber, please?

2 A. Those gravel pits, on the surface, the bodies were decomposing.

3 You couldn't stay for any longer. It was almost impossible to come any

4 closer than maybe 20 metres. When I passed by that gravel pit containing

5 glass, I hurried away. I couldn't stand the stench.

6 Q. Could you tell what kind of clothing the bodies were clad in, sir?

7 A. During the short period of time that I spent by the gravel pits, I

8 could see that there were some uniformed persons, and there were also

9 bodies in civilian clothes.

10 Q. And were these bodies, sir, already in the pits or were they on

11 the surface of the ground?

12 A. All of them were in the pit. Just a few of them were on the

13 surface. But it was all kind of close. The bodies were not scattered far

14 away from the pits. They were all close to each other.

15 Q. Did you see anyone else, other than Mr. Mitrovic and the driver,

16 while you were at this site?

17 A. The driver who had brought me remained behind. Only Mitrovic came

18 with this small Skip in order to bury the bodies and to prevent the stench

19 from spreading. There may have been some three or four uniformed young

20 men with normal belts, but they were masked. Their faces were painted.

21 There was a group of some three or four of them. I did not approach them.

22 I didn't ask them who they were. I couldn't recognise them. They were a

23 bit further away from me and I wouldn't be able to tell you what they were

24 doing there. Mitrovic could not do anything with his machine. His

25 machine was very small, so that after a certain while, the ULT 220

1 arrived. This is a bigger machine. The driver got off his cabin. You

2 could tell that he found the whole situation very difficult to sustain but

3 he had to do it. I don't know whether he was under the pressure of these

4 young men. And as I say, I don't know who they were, where they had come

5 from. He had to do it.

6 Q. Did you order that ULT 220 to be brought to that location, sir?

7 A. No, not me.

8 Q. Who did, if you know?

9 A. I suppose that the order came from the unit. I suppose that they

10 had realised that nothing could be done with the small machine, that that

11 small machine was not fit for that job in that location, that it would

12 take a very long time to accomplish the task, and I suppose that they had

13 sent the big machine from the unit.

14 Q. And do you know who was operating this ULT 220?

15 A. This machine belonged to the stone quarry in Josanica which is a

16 company that quarried stone. This was their machine and the operator was

17 Rade Boskovic. He was an employee of that company and he was the operator

18 of that machine that belonged to them.

19 Q. And do you recall approximately how long you stayed at this site?

20 A. Not long. Again, I left earlier. Milos left before me, with the

21 small machine that was useless. Rade remained there after me. And then

22 since he drove that self-propelling machine he returned in that machine

23 once he had accomplished the job.

24 Q. Well, did you leave before Mr. Boskovic finished the job or did

25 you leave with him or did you leave after him?

1 A. I left before him.

2 Q. Did you in fact see him operating his ULT 220, sir?

3 A. Well, I had to see that. He passed by me. He went there to

4 finish whatever had to be finished.

5 Q. And did you actually see him doing the job that he had been sent

6 to do, sir?

7 A. I wasn't in his immediate vicinity. I was a bit further off. But

8 I did see him working.

9 Q. And where did you go after you left this site in Kozluk?

10 A. I went to the unit. I got off the vehicle, and when I found no

11 one in the office, I went back out in the street, I hitch-hiked and

12 returned home and Rade returned to the base on his own.

13 Q. Now, sir, were you ordered a third time to go somewhere?

14 A. Yes. Every morning, whenever I came to the unit, I would be

15 issued with tasks. Therefore, time came for the third day, when they told

16 me to go to Branjevo. I asked what was I to do there and they

17 said, "Well, the same job as the previous one awaits you." That's what

18 they told me at the unit. Slavko and Sekonjic told me that, to go there

19 immediately.

20 Q. And were you told to go anywhere in particular in Branjevo?

21 A. In Branjevo, there was an execution by the farm, by the pig farm,

22 in the area of Branjevo, and a pit was supposed to be dug out to dump the

23 bodies in. I was told that the people from the utility company would come

24 to load the bodies.

25 Q. And were you already familiar with this farm in Branjevo?

1 A. I was not. Well, during the war, I would pass through that area

2 on that road, via Branjevo, but I wasn't very familiar with the location

3 itself, with the pig farm. I never went in there. I just passed by on

4 the road.

5 Q. How did you get there, sir?

6 A. I got there in a small vehicle.

7 Q. Did you drive yourself or did you have a driver?

8 A. No. They sent a driver from the unit.

9 Q. Do you recall approximately what time you arrived?

10 A. I think it was past 8.00 or around 8.30, 9.00. It is rather far

11 from Zvornik.

12 Q. And just to be clear, was this in the morning or in the evening?

13 A. In the morning.

14 Q. Would you please describe what you saw when you arrived at the

15 Branjevo Farm that morning?

16 A. When I arrived, the vehicle stayed down the road, just before one

17 is supposed to turn to the farm. I came to the farm itself and I

18 encountered a group of workers from the farm. They were standing on the

19 road. They told me -- well, they asked me whether anyone would come to do

20 anything, and I said, "Yes, I guess so. I was sent up here." After that

21 a BGH arrived on a trailer truck, after which a ULT arrived as well by

22 itself. Whether any of the workers told them where to dig, I don't know,

23 but I think it was supposed to be as far from the sties as possible. I

24 didn't even have time to leave when they started digging, once the BGH

25 arrived.

1 Q. Now, when you refer to workers from the farm, are you referring to

2 civilian workers or military workers, sir?

3 A. These were elderly civilians that were renting out the facilities

4 and working on the farm, elderly people.

5 Q. And do you recall seeing anyone from the rear battalion at that

6 location?

7 A. At the moment of my arrival, no one was there. However, later the

8 elderly people from the public utilities company arrived to help with the

9 whole thing, to get it over with.

10 Q. And what were these elderly people doing, sir?

11 A. Nothing at the moment of my arrival. They were standing within

12 the perimeter, next to the sties.

13 Q. And then what did they do, sir?

14 A. They went to their own facilities. Occasionally they would come

15 out of the buildings, just to see what was going on with the burial.

16 Q. Well, did you see anyone other than the operator of the BGH or the

17 operator of the ULT, who were operating their machines? Did you see

18 anyone handle any of the bodies, do anything physically with any of the

19 bodies?

20 A. Not at the moment of my arrival. I only saw those people from the

21 farm, and later when I saw the machine operators.

22 Q. Well, you said that the public utility people had been sent to

23 help. What did they help do?

24 A. To load the bodies into the bucket. Sometimes the operator would

25 pick up the bodies with the bucket itself, but mainly they were loaded on

1 to it manually.

2 Q. Now, are you aware that there was something known as the rear

3 battalion in the Zvornik Brigade, sir?

4 A. Yes, I am.

5 Q. And what was that rear battalion comprised of, in terms of the men

6 in that battalion?

7 A. Predominantly, these were somewhat older people who were not

8 supposed to go to the front lines, to the positions. They were in the

9 rear, to do various tasks that had to be done. Usually elderly people or

10 older.

11 Q. And do you recall seeing any members of the rear battalion also

12 working with the public utilities workers that day?

13 A. In the group, when they arrived, there may have been two or three

14 of them with them. I can't recall exactly. I can't recall any names. I

15 didn't know any of them. But there was a group from the utilities company

16 and perhaps two or three men from the rear.

17 Q. Now, did you stay at this site the entire time you were there, or

18 did you go back and forth to some other location during this process of

19 loading up the bodies and burying them?

20 A. I was there almost up until the end, but not really close to them.

21 I was next to the road and towards the outpatient clinic. It was supposed

22 to cater for the Lokanj part of the area. I was closer to the road that

23 was between the sties and the clinic.

24 Q. And when you were at this clinic, did you speak with anybody or

25 did you see anybody there that you recall?

1 A. I was there with a captain, a captain first class, I think, who

2 was there at Lokanj. By profession he was a teacher. I can't recall his

3 first or last name. He was an older person. His house was close to the

4 clinic itself. I went up to see him and then we were standing by the

5 road.

6 Q. And can you describe anything about his appearance?

7 A. It is an older man, somewhat stout. He had a belly. As far as I

8 can recall what he looked like, he was rather heavily built.

9 Q. And do you recall whether this captain was part of any particular

10 battalion and, if so, do you recall to which brigade his battalion

11 belonged?

12 A. He was with the Lokanj Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade.

13 Q. And do you recall approximately what time of the day it was when

14 you left Branjevo?

15 A. In the evening, around 7.00 or 8.00.

16 Q. And when you left, had the digging and burying been completed or

17 was it still going on?

18 A. Some bodies remained. I left, and once they were done, the

19 self-propelling machine went on its own. The other one was loaded on to

20 the truck, and sent to the base.

21 MR. THAYER: Now, if we may have P02103 on e-court, please, and

22 specifically page 210.

23 Actually, may we have page 212, please.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. THAYER: May we have page 212, please.

1 Q. Sir, do you recognise this location in this photograph?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. What is it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us what it is, please, sir?

6 A. It's the Branjevo Farm.

7 Q. You mentioned some pigsties, sir. I just ask to you take that pen

8 and you may require some assistance.

9 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Madam Usher.

10 Q. Would you just please draw an X on the pigsties that you recall?

11 A. [Marks] Over here, in this part.

12 Q. And when you refer to "this part," are you referring to the two

13 long buildings with the red roofs, sir, as being the pigsties?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Now, do you see the area in this photograph where the bodies were

16 being buried?

17 A. Should I mark it?

18 Q. If you can, if you can draw a circle in the area where the bodies

19 were being buried.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. All right, sir. I'd just ask you to place your initials on the

22 lower right-hand corner and today's date, the 29th of August.

23 A. [Marks]

24 MR. THAYER: We can save it. And we'll be done with this exhibit.

25 And when we are done, if we could have page 210 up, please? Thank you,

1 Madam Usher.

2 Q. First question, sir, do you read English?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Just ask you to look at this and can you tell us what this

5 overhead image represents?

6 A. It is the same location at Branjevo as shown in the previous

7 photograph.

8 Q. Okay. And if you would, please mark with Xs the pigsties.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. And if you would, just draw a line to indicate the area in which

11 this digging and burying was going on. If you can do it with a circle,

12 fine but if it's just easier to draw a line to show the extent of the area

13 that you recall seeing.

14 A. It is this part here. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you, sir. If you would just again place your initials in

16 the lower right-hand corner and today's date, the 29th of August.

17 A. [Marks]

18 MR. THAYER: We can save this and we'll move on from this exhibit.

19 Thank you, Madam Usher.

20 Q. Sir, did you ever speak to Major Jokic, your chief of engineering,

21 about these assignments that you received?

22 A. I did. Whenever we met. We didn't meet daily but on occasion. I

23 would ask him about it and he said, "Well, someone had to do it. Since

24 you were there with your men, from the road and bridge platoon, you were

25 tasked with that, since you know how to work in the field. That's why you

1 were sent."

2 Q. Sir, based on what you were seeing and hearing over these days

3 when you had these assignments, were these executions a secret in your

4 company? Or was it something people were talking about and knew about?

5 A. I don't know. Before the whole thing, I spent two or three days

6 at home getting ready to see my son off to serve his military term. I

7 didn't know about the whole thing. Once I returned to the unit, it was

8 then that I was told what I was supposed to do. Before that, I had no

9 knowledge of it.

10 Q. And these assignments that you received to bury the bodies of

11 these people who had been executed, were they a secret in your company?

12 A. I don't think so. It was no secret at all. All of the people in

13 the company knew that it had to be done. The soldiers talked about it

14 between themselves.

15 Q. Now, sir, on each of these days when you were sent to these three

16 locations, were you the highest-ranking member of your company at those

17 sites?

18 A. I was, but the soldiers were the operators. Since I was a staff

19 sergeant from the times before the war, I was assigned to accompany them.

20 That was my task within the company, to carry out such tasks and to

21 command the road and bridges platoon.

22 Q. And is it your testimony that you did not issue a single order to

23 any of your men in connection with these three assignments?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: "No" what? "No," you didn't issue a single order

1 or, "No," this is not your testimony? What we want to know from you very

2 clearly, Mr. Lazarevic, is: Did you on occasion at any time issue a

3 single order to any of your men in connection with these three

4 assignments? What's your answer to that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not, not to anyone. I never

6 issued a specific task.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that clear, Mr. Thayer?

8 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Did you ever mark any of the sites with pegs or in any fashion

10 prior to the bodies being buried at any of them?

11 A. Not me. That's for sure.

12 Q. Did you ever show anyone at any of these sites where to bury the

13 bodies?

14 A. Not me.

15 Q. Did you become aware at any time after these events of any

16 operation to dig up all those bodies and rebury them elsewhere?

17 A. After the initial burial, you mean?

18 Q. That's correct, sir.

19 A. I heard about it.

20 Q. When did you hear about it, sir?

21 A. After some time. I don't know how much later exactly.

22 Q. And do you have any information or knowledge about your

23 Engineering Company being involved in any way in such activities?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Can you share that information for us, please? What

1 information do you have of your Engineering Company being involved in any

2 way with the reburial of these bodies?

3 A. I heard that the machine operators went somewhere. The ones who

4 did the initial burying were called in to dig the bodies out.

5 Q. And, sir -- I'm sorry, please continue.

6 A. I was assigned to do that the same way it was done the first time,

7 from the engineering base. I was told to go there with them when they

8 begin working, they made a list of men. Major Jokic and Slavko Bogicevic

9 did that. They were the people who were supposed to do that.

10 Q. And do you recall when you were given this assignment, sir?

11 A. I was at home. I was on furlough on that day. I was off duty.

12 They called me on the phone. Slavko Bogicevic called me. And told me to

13 come urgently. I went there. He was standing in front of the barracks.

14 He handed me a piece of paper. I asked him what that was. And he

15 explained to me that the bodies had to be dug out and transferred

16 somewhere, and he also handed me the list of people who were supposed to

17 go with me. Again I asked, "Why me?" But it turned out that the major

18 actually decided that he should go with that group of people. He didn't

19 want to do that. And instead of going himself, he called me at home and

20 when I got there, he gave me that list and told me what to do and what had

21 been prepared.

22 Q. And this is Major Jokic, sir?

23 A. Major Jokic and Slavko Bogicevic.

24 Q. Now, do you recall approximately what month this occurred, this

25 assignment to dig up the bodies?

1 A. I don't know when, what month. I don't know the date. I can't

2 remember.

3 Q. Was it in 1995, sir, before the end of the -- before December of

4 1995?

5 A. It was in 1995, but I don't know what month.

6 Q. So, did you, in the end, personally participate in any way in this

7 reburial -- or digging up and reburial of the bodies?

8 A. I participated in the same way as before. I was there, but I was

9 not in the immediate vicinity of the site. The people who were doing the

10 reburial knew what to do, and they did it on their own. They were the

11 ones who dug the bodies out and did the rest.

12 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the locations that you went to

13 during this reburial operation?

14 A. I went to the same locations where the bodies were originally

15 buried. That was my task. My task was to be there.

16 Q. And on any of these occasions, did you follow the bodies to the

17 locations where they were to be reburied?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, sir, I want to review some more documents with you. The

20 first is 65 ter number 297.

21 Now, sir, with Madam Usher's assistance, I want to show you an

22 original document, original item. Sir, if you would, just pick up that

23 book, feel free to pick it up. Would you just leaf through it and tell us

24 if you recognise what it is?

25 A. This is the book where daily orders and tasks of the Engineering

1 Company were recorded.

2 Q. Okay. And if we could go to page 135 in the original B/C/S, and

3 that's page 15 in the English, and, sir, that's page 126 of the original

4 there. If you're looking at the logbook, in the upper right-hand corner

5 it's page 126.

6 Sir, can you read what the first line of that page 126 says?

7 A. "The duty officer in the company command on 15 July 1995 will be

8 Sergeant First Class Damjan Lazarevic."

9 Q. Okay. And at the very top of that page, sir, what does it say?

10 What's the very first line on the page?

11 A. "Daily order of the company commander for 15 July 1995."

12 Q. And do you recall what the purpose of this logbook was?

13 A. It showed who the duty officer in the company was, what people

14 were supposed to do, what they did, on certain days. I was assigned as

15 the duty officer in the company on the day when I was sent to Krizevici,

16 to Orahovac. I was not even in the company. The common practice was if

17 somebody was sent away to the field, then somebody else would act as the

18 duty officer, and it could have even been a foot soldier. It did not

19 necessarily have to be an officer. That was a common practice in the

20 company.

21 Q. Okay. And who do you recall being responsible for writing in this

22 information every day?

23 A. The company officer did it most of the time. If he wasn't there,

24 then it would be the deputy company commander.

25 Q. And when you say "company officer," to whom are you referring

1 specifically, sir?

2 A. The person who recorded daily orders. If he wasn't there, then it

3 would be Slavko Bogicevic the deputy commander or if even he wasn't there

4 then it would be the company commander himself who would make a record of

5 the things that people are supposed to do on a certain day.

6 Q. Okay, sir, I'm sorry, I asked an unclear question. What was the

7 name of the company officer? I think you may have referred to him as the

8 desk officer.

9 A. Sekonjic, Vojislav, Vojkan Sekonjic. I believe that his name is

10 Vojkan, actually.

11 Q. Now, I want to turn your attention to numbers 4, 5, 6 and 7 on

12 this page under the heading of "tasks." Again, that's on the 15th of

13 July, page 126, the page -- if you just turn to page 126, the page you

14 just had, or if you want to look at your computer, do you see

15 under "tasks", sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What does number 4 say?

18 A. "BGH-700 to work in Orahovac."

19 Q. And the next line, number 5, task number 5, what does that say?

20 A. "The ULT 220 to work in Orahovac."

21 Q. And the next line, number 6?

22 A. "The ULT to work in Petkovci." I don't know anything about this.

23 I don't know anything about bullet number 6.

24 Q. Okay. How about bullet number 7? What does that say, sir?

25 A. Again, I know nothing about the bullet number 7.

1 Q. That is working with the excavator at Petkovci, you don't know

2 anything about that, correct?

3 A. Correct, I don't know. I know nothing about the bullet number 6

4 or 7.

5 Q. Okay. May we look at the next page of this document? And, sir,

6 if you want to just look at the next page, page 127, no, I don't think you

7 need to turn the page. I think you'll see that it's right there. And

8 what does the first line there say, sir, at the very top of the page?

9 A. "Daily order by the company commander for 16 July 1995."

10 Q. And if you would, would you just read task number 2 and task

11 number 3?

12 A. "Working with the BGH-700 in Orahovac."

13 And number 3: "Working with ULT 220 in Orahovac."

14 Q. And if we may look at the next page of the document, please? And

15 sir, if you just turn the page to page 128, as it's marked there. What

16 does the first line say on this page, please, sir?

17 A. "Daily order by company commander for 17 July 1995."

18 Q. And would you please read entries -- first entry number 2?

19 A. "Working with BGH-700 in Branjevo."

20 Q. And the next item, the next task, number 3, please?

21 A. "Working with ULT 220 in Branjevo."

22 Q. And task number 5, please?

23 A. "BGH-700 should be transported to Branjevo."

24 Q. And does it indicate how? By what means?

25 A. No, it doesn't indicate that.

1 Q. Okay. Okay, sir, you can close that. And thank you.

2 I want to show you a couple of more documents, sir. If we could

3 look at 65 ter number 301. And with Madam Usher's assistance, I'm going

4 to hand you the original because it may be more legible for you. And

5 actually, we need the next page, because I think this was ERNed backwards

6 but I'll --

7 Sir -- and if we could just scroll to the top of the document.

8 There is something in handwriting at the top of the page on the right-hand

9 side, and it seems to be underlined. What does that say, sir?

10 A. "Birac holding," the aluminum factory in Birac, Birac Holding.

11 Q. And if we could just scroll down? That's fine actually. There

12 appears to be a line with a date range of July 1st to 31st, 1995. What

13 does that line indicate, sir?

14 A. I can't see it on the screen.

15 Q. Okay. We have the original there. There is -- there is a line

16 with --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Can someone point to the line with the pointer,

18 please?

19 MR. THAYER:

20 Q. Sir, if you look back at your computer, can you see the line

21 that's being shown to you? I know it's a little difficult?

22 A. "Backhoe excavator, Torpedo."

23 Q. Okay. Well, right above that line, sir, what does that line

24 indicate, the line above the line that says --

25 A. The 1st of July.

1 Q. Yes. What does that line indicate, sir?

2 A. 1st of July to 31st of July.

3 Q. Okay. And the second line, as you've just read it, underneath

4 that? What is the second -- the line directly underneath that date

5 indicate? There is something in Cyrillic and then something typewritten.

6 Could you just read that, please?

7 A. I can't see a thing on this.

8 Q. Okay. If would you look at the original, then, just hold it up?

9 A. "D-2."

10 Q. Okay. Right above that line, and you read part of it a moment

11 ago, what does that line say? Can you read the Cyrillic and then the

12 typewritten line after it?

13 A. What I've read was, "Backhoe excavator, Torpedo." What else

14 should I read?

15 Q. And what is this document, sir? Can you tell the Trial Chamber

16 what this document is?

17 A. This is a travel and work logbook which existed for every

18 construction vehicle or every piece of construction equipment that we had

19 in our possession.

20 Q. And we've already explained what Rovokopac is. What is "Torpedo"?

21 Is that just a brand name of a digger?

22 A. I suppose that it was its brand name. It was also a smaller

23 machine looking like a tractor, with a small bucket in the front and a

24 somewhat bigger digging basket in the back for digging holes, and I

25 suppose that Torpedo is the make of that machinery.

1 Q. And if you can just look a little further down on this document,

2 there are two names that appear. Can you read those, sir?

3 A. Cvijetin Ristanovic and Milos Mitrovic. These two names mean that

4 there was one machine and two operators. They would take turns. For

5 example, one would work for two or three days and then he would be off for

6 two days and the other would take over. Both names are here to indicate

7 who was the one who filled the tank with fuel. In any case, these two

8 people operated one machine. One machine, two operators, that's all.

9 Q. If we could just look down a little further, there is a larger

10 chart, and on the first column on the left side, there appear to be some

11 dates. Do you see the chart, sir, and there are some dates?

12 Thank you, thank you, Madam Usher.

13 A. Yes, I can see the 11th, the 14th, the 16th, the 21st, and in the

14 last line, 23rd.

15 Q. And what do the two lines for the 14th and the 16th indicate to

16 you, as you read the information going from left to right, let's start

17 with the entry for the 14th of July. What does that entry say?

18 A. The date, and then there is the number of the travel order, and

19 then after that the quantity of fuel issued.

20 Q. In litres, sir?

21 A. In litres, yes.

22 Q. And then going all the way across to the far right of the chart,

23 what's that last column, sir? What does that indicate?

24 A. These are signatures, the signatures of somebody from the rear,

25 confirming how much fuel had been issued and used for whatever work was

1 done with the machine.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if we could go to the other page of this

3 document, please? And again, sir, if it helps you to look at the

4 original, please do so. We'll have it up on the screen and just feel free

5 to use whichever one is more legible. Again, on the far left, we have a

6 column that appears to have dates on it. Just generally speaking, sir,

7 without looking at any particular entry, what is this page designed to

8 communicate? What's the information on this page supposed to tell the

9 reader?

10 A. This is a -- the description of every particular day of where the

11 machines were sent, which route they took. For example on the 11th of

12 July 1995, the Republika Srpska army. It says, "The base," and I can't

13 decipher the next word.

14 Q. That's okay, sir. We are going to be talking about a couple of

15 the other ones in particular. But if you look at column number 16, as we

16 move across the document from left to right, what does that indicate, sir?

17 A. These are vehicle hours.

18 Q. Okay. The number of hours that the vehicle was in use; is that

19 correct?

20 A. The number of hours that the machine was used according to the

21 travel order or the work order.

22 Q. Now, if we could swing back to the far left of the document, sir,

23 I just want you to read, please, the entire entry for -- do you see a date

24 of 14 July, 1995?

25 A. "The base-Orahovac-the base, digging trenches in Orahovac."

1 Q. And the time there? Vehicle time? Use time?

2 A. Five hours.

3 Q. And, sir, if we could look at the next entry underneath that one,

4 underneath the entry for the 14th of July, what does it say?

5 A. "The base-Orahovac-the base, digging trenches in Kozluk."

6 Q. Okay, sir, I just want to make sure we have read the right line.

7 If you could look at -- see the entry for the 16th, and just move slowly

8 to the right under column 4. Can you read what it says there for the

9 entry on the 16th?

10 A. "The base-Kozluk-the base. Digging trenches in Kozluk."

11 Q. And the time if you can see it there on the original, the time

12 spent?

13 A. Eight, eight hours.

14 Q. And just to go back to column 2, what does that column indicate

15 for those dates on the 14th and the 16th, column 2?

16 A. "The base-Orahovac-the base" on the 14th and on the 16th, "The

17 base-Kozluk-the base."

18 Q. Okay, now if you're looking at the column number 2 -- Do you see

19 that, there sir, as you're moving left to right, columns 1 through 20, I'm

20 asking you about column 2?

21 A. "Indication" -- yes, I can see the VRS, the army of Republika

22 Srpska.

23 Q. And that's the case for the 14th and the 16th; is that correct?

24 A. I think so. I believe that the same applies because no other

25 indication has been put.

1 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm sorry, please finish your answer.

2 A. But these two machines, on those two days, on the 16th, it did go

3 to Kozluk but it did not do anything. And on the 14th, this particular

4 machine was not up there. It was not in Orahovac. The other one, the

5 bigger one, the BGH-500, was there. Somebody just put this information

6 randomly. When I arrived in Orahovac, a BGH was there. The Torpedo

7 wasn't there. The Torpedo was in Kozluk. Milos Mitrovic took him there

8 but it was useless. He could not do anything with it.

9 Q. Okay.

10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think it's time for a break and we

11 just have a couple more documents to review with the witness when we

12 return.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I'm handing to Madam Registrar the clean copy

14 of what you handed to us earlier on, indicating the parts that you need to

15 redact. What is not cancelled on the sheet that I'm handing to you must

16 not be redacted. Just give it to Mr. Thayer. Then we'll verify it,

17 Mr. Zivanovic, later on, and you will have the newly redacted copy. Thank

18 you.

19 We will have a 25-minute break, please.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 May we have 65 ter number 302, please? And may I have the

25 assistance of Madam Usher?

1 Q. Okay, sir. Do you see a document on the computer in front of you?

2 And I've also given you the original of that document, if that's easier

3 for you to read. Okay.

4 There is a typewritten line at the very top of the document, just

5 above that series of numbers. Can you read what that typewriting says at

6 the very top of the document, sir, please?

7 A. "Construction machine, the property of the Birac Holding company."

8 Q. And just looking a little further down the document, what is the

9 date range again for this piece of equipment?

10 A. From the 1st of July until the 31st of July 1995.

11 Q. And what is this piece of equipment from Birac Holding, sir?

12 A. Construction machine ULT 220, four wheels, self-propelled, colour

13 yellow.

14 Q. And there is a name that appears in the small chart just a little

15 further down. Do you know -- can you read that and can you tell the Trial

16 Chamber who that person is?

17 A. It's the name of the operator of that piece of equipment. He used

18 to work at the holding, at the Birac Holding company. His name was

19 Veljko Kovacevic.

20 Q. And proceeding down a little further into the larger chart, do you

21 see some entries for the dates of July 15th and July 17th, in terms of the

22 fuel that was used?

23 A. Yes. On the 15th of July, 60 litres of fuel was put in. On the

24 17th of July, 100 litres.

25 Q. And do you see two other entries also for the 15th and the 17th,

1 in that same column, and if so, what are the fueling amounts there?

2 A. The 15th, 40 litres, the 17th, 70 litres.

3 Q. Now, if we may have the second page of this document shown on

4 e-court, please?

5 And, sir, I couldn't tell -- if you could turn the page over, if

6 you could look at the back of the document? Okay. And in column 1, do

7 you see two dates, sir? One underneath the other?

8 A. The 17th of July 1995, VRS, digging trenches in Orahovac.

9 Q. Okay. Just ask you to take another look, if you would, under

10 column 1, if you could look at the date on the very first entry there,

11 right under column 1 where it says the date. Can you take a look and tell

12 us what that date is for that first entry?

13 A. The 15th of July 1995, VRS, digging of trenches in Orahovac.

14 Q. And how many hours does this log indicate this ULT 220 worked on

15 that day at Orahovac?

16 A. It says here 5.00.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Five hours.

18 A. But it should have been longer. But someone wrote down five hours

19 only. I don't know why.

20 Q. Okay. And looking down at that second entry, if we could scroll

21 all the way to the left, thank you, what is the second date under column

22 1, sir?

23 A. The 17th of July 1995, VRS, digging trenches in Branjevo.

24 Q. And how much time was spent at Branjevo, according to this log?

25 A. It says here eight and a half.

1 Q. May we have 65 ter number 299 on e-court, please? And again, sir,

2 I'm going to show you the original with the assistance of Madam Usher.

3 A. Could I make a correction as to the other date?

4 Q. Certainly, sir.

5 A. This machine was not at Branjevo on the 17th. There was another

6 machine there. It was also a ULT 220 but it was the property of the

7 quarry at Josanica, not this one. I know it for certain.

8 Q. Okay. And the fuel that was used to refuel these vehicles, where

9 was -- where was that done and whose fuel was it?

10 A. The VRS, our brigade, at the gas station. That's where our

11 vehicles were filled with fuel.

12 Q. Okay. This is the last document I'm going to show you, sir. And

13 again, what's the date range for this vehicle? If you could look at the

14 front, page. Thank you, sir. Do you have -- do you see the image on your

15 screen, sir?

16 A. I can't see it. I can see the original much better.

17 Q. Great. Thank you, sir. Then if you would, please read the date

18 range on this document.

19 A. This is not a construction machine. This is a truck, a vehicle,

20 2626 D2. It is a truck used to transport material.

21 Q. And the manufacturer of this truck, if you can read it, sir?

22 What's the word right before 2626?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the make of the truck?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here D2, type of fuel.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. It's the line before, above that.

1 What's the make? You've told us that this was a truck, a 2626, or

2 whatever the number is, but what make was the truck?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Mercedes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Thayer.

5 MR. THAYER:

6 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, again, there is a name a little lower down.

7 Can you read that? And do you know who that person is?

8 A. I do. Milan Milovanovic. He used to be a driver in our unit.

9 Q. And if we go down to that larger chart, if we could just scroll

10 down a little bit, there are some entries for the 14th and 17th of July.

11 Do you see those there, sir?

12 A. The 14th of July, 1995, yes.

13 Q. And how much fuel was --

14 A. 30 litres. On the 17th of July, it was 30 litres as well.

15 Q. Now, from your recollection, sir, if a vehicle was requisitioned

16 from an outside company like the Glinica or Birac Holding as you've

17 referred to it, would that company be responsible for fueling the vehicle

18 or would it be VRS, in this case, Zvornik Brigade, fuel that would be used

19 to keep that vehicle going and to -- and refueled?

20 A. Predominantly the vehicles would be provided with fuel by the

21 brigade. However, if the brigade was short of fuel, then they were

22 supposed to be provided fuel for by the companies from which they were

23 requisitioned.

24 Q. Okay. If we could go to the next page, please, sir, and I just

25 have a few more questions on this document for you. If we could scroll up

1 just a little bit, and, sir, going down column 1 all the way on the left,

2 do you see an entry for the 14th of July?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And would you please just read across this entry and tell us what

5 it says?

6 A. The 14th of July 1995, "The base at Krizevici, transport of an

7 excavator on a trailer."

8 Q. Now, does it say "base at Krizevici" or "base to Krizevici", sir?

9 A. The reference is made to the engineering base, to Krizevici and

10 back to the base.

11 Q. Okay. If would you just look down to the very next row, at the

12 entry for the 16th of July, and if you would just read that entry all the

13 way across, please, sir?

14 A. The 16th of July, 1995, "Base to Orahovac, transport of excavator

15 and trailer."

16 Q. And the next entry at July 17th, sir?

17 A. The 17th of July, 1995, "Base to Standard," which is where the

18 seat of our brigade was, "To Branjevo, to base. Transport of BGH-700."

19 Q. And, sir, just continuing to go to the right on that line, if we

20 could scroll over a little bit, do you recognise the signature there on

21 that particular entry on the 17th of July?

22 A. The 17th, it is my signature. I signed this. Someone was

23 supposed to sign. When I was present, I would. If I was absent, it would

24 be signed by someone else.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. I think we are done with these documents.

1 Now, sir, I just want to ask you some additional questions about

2 the reburial of these bodies. You referred to a list of people that had

3 been compiled and shown to you, of people that, I believe, were supposed

4 to work, people that belonged to your company, during this operation. Do

5 you know who compiled that list, sir?

6 A. From my company, two or rather three operators were singled out.

7 The rest were from other units, not from the engineering unit. There were

8 only three of our men from our unit.

9 Q. And when you say "unit," sir, are you referring to other units or

10 battalions of the Zvornik Brigade or are you talking about other brigades?

11 A. I mean other units. From my unit, from the engineering unit,

12 there were only three men. The rest were from the Zvornik Brigade, from

13 its different units.

14 Q. Were you ever shown a map of the locations where these bodies were

15 going to be reburied, sir? Or did you ever hear of such a map?

16 A. No, never. No one has ever shown me such a map, and I don't know

17 of its existence.

18 Q. Are you aware of or did you receive any information about who

19 chose these reburial locations?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you were at these same three sites, when the bodies were

22 being dug up, were you there when the vehicles that were used to transport

23 those corpses arrived to take them away, sir?

24 A. I was. I was there when they arrived, and when those people

25 started loading, but not too close. However, I was in the vicinity.

1 Q. Can you describe what kind of vehicles were used to transport

2 those bodies?

3 A. The vehicles of the company, trucks from various companies. Our

4 vehicles were old, and we couldn't use them to complete the work.

5 Q. And how often do you recall those trucks having to arrive to

6 transport those corpses from these various locations, sir, to be reburied?

7 A. Whenever needed at each of the locations; whenever needed they

8 would arrive there.

9 Q. Are you able to even estimate how many times at these locations

10 these trucks arrived, sir, to take away these bodies?

11 A. I wouldn't know how many times each of the vehicles came, but they

12 were present at all three locations when there was a reburial.

13 Q. And, sir, was this during the day or during the night?

14 A. In the evening.

15 Q. Can you describe what it was like for you, in terms of the smell,

16 as these bodies were being dug up and placed on these trucks?

17 A. Well, it was unbearable. The machine operators would abandon

18 their vehicles in order to get some air. They couldn't stand it.

19 Q. To your knowledge, did the brigade receive any assistance from any

20 other brigades or units, for example, the 5th Engineers, or any corps

21 level or higher level units, in carrying out this operation?

22 A. I don't know. As far as I know, we did the digging out. As to

23 who subsequently reburied the bodies, I don't know. We weren't able to

24 know. And we weren't told either. I don't know where the load was taken

25 to.

1 Q. So, sir, then is it your testimony that as far as you knew,

2 Zvornik Brigade Engineering Company members were not tasked to help bury

3 those bodies wherever they may have been buried? I should say should

4 rebury those bodies, wherever they had been reburied.

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clarify this now because as put, it may lead

7 to -- leave some doubt.

8 You are confirming to us, Mr. Lazarevic, that the Zvornik Brigade

9 Engineering Company was not tasked with the reburying, reburial, of any of

10 these bodies; is that correct?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, it was not.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

13 MR. THAYER:

14 Q. Now, sir, to your knowledge, from what you were told at the time

15 or from what you heard later on, were there other burial sites that were

16 exhumed, unearthed, at which this operation occurred, in addition to the

17 three that you were involved with, did you ever become aware that that was

18 done elsewhere, where other mass executions and burials occurred?

19 A. No. I'm not aware of it. I know the three locations, our

20 locations in the area of Zvornik, and the people buried and then reburied.

21 As for any other locations, I don't know anything about that.

22 Q. Can you estimate approximately how many days this reburial

23 operation that occurred in the Zvornik Brigade zone of responsibility

24 took?

25 A. Maybe five or six days at the most. This is how long it went on

1 for. If we are talking about the three locations in the area of the

2 Zvornik Brigade.

3 Q. At any of these locations, when you were present, was there anyone

4 of a higher rank or authority than yourself?

5 A. While I was present there with the soldiers, nobody else came. I

6 did not see anybody. However, I wasn't there all the time, while all this

7 was being done, I would pop by for a moment and stayed there just for a

8 short while, but then I would leave, I would go as far away as possible

9 because I just couldn't stand the stench.

10 Q. Now, given that this process, this operation, took several days,

11 can you tell the Trial Chamber where you recall all of the fuel that would

12 have been needed for this operation coming from?

13 A. From the brigade, from the Zvornik Brigade.

14 Q. From what you saw, from what you had been told by Mr. Bogicevic or

15 perhaps by Major Jokic, did this operation appear to you to be coordinated

16 solely by the Zvornik Brigade or by some higher level command, sir?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?

18 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, that calls -- it's leading and a

19 suggestive question. It calls for speculation.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. You can rephrase the question. The way you

21 put it, it's marginal. Mr. Meek may be right. So I would suggest you

22 rephrase it.

23 MR. THAYER:

24 Q. Sir, you were there. Based on what you saw, based on what you

25 were told by the people within your command, did it appear that this

1 operation was something that was coordinated entirely by the

2 Zvornik Brigade?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?

4 MR. MEEK: Same objection, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me consult with my colleagues, now.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The reason why I asked you to rephrase the question

8 in the first place is because you could have put a very direct question.

9 To your knowledge, or do you know who coordinated this whole operation?

10 MR. THAYER:

11 Q. Sir, can you answer that question?

12 A. Major Trbic, who was in the Zvornik Brigade. He was up there in

13 the command.

14 Q. And sir, who is Major Trbic?

15 A. He was up there in the brigade. He was a major in charge of

16 security, I believe. I don't know. But I believe that he was in charge

17 of security.

18 Q. And, sir, what is the basis of your answer that it was Major Trbic

19 in the Zvornik Brigade who coordinated this operation?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes?

21 MR. MEEK: Judge, I believe that question also misstates the

22 evidence. The witness just said Major Trbic was in the command. This

23 witness also, Your Honour, has already testified in the last ten minutes

24 that no one told him anything about this situation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop. I mean, there is a limit beyond

1 which you shouldn't go. The reference to the Zvornik Brigade, I think

2 Mr. Meek is right, because the -- not completely because actually the

3 previous answer was, "He was up there in the brigade. He was a major in

4 charge of security." The only thing is that on line 23 on the previous

5 page, he said, "Major Trbic, who was in the Zvornik Brigade. He was up

6 there in the command." That's the only thing, but you can clarify this

7 and you have also not asked him for the first name of this so-called

8 Major Trbic.

9 MR. THAYER:

10 Q. Sir, just a couple of questions to clarify. First you heard

11 Mr. President's question. Do you recall the first name of this

12 Major Trbic?

13 A. Nothing comes to mind, but I know the man. He was from our

14 brigade. I can't remember off the cuff.

15 Q. And when you say he was "up at the command," what do you mean,

16 sir?

17 A. At the command. He was in charge of all these reburial and

18 transfer of bodies.

19 Q. Which command, sir?

20 A. At the command of the Zvornik Brigade. He was up there, and

21 people addressed him as to what to do and how.

22 Q. And again, sir, what is the basis of your testimony that it was

23 this Major Trbic at the command of the Zvornik Brigade who coordinated

24 this reburial operation?

25 A. Because, after every job, he would summon us up there to inquire

1 as to what had been done, how much had been done. That's how I know. I

2 never spoke to anybody else. Nobody else called me to report to him

3 there.

4 MR. THAYER: With the Court's indulgence, may I just have a

5 moment?

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President, just two more questions.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

9 MR. THAYER:

10 Q. Sir, did you know at the time who Mr. or Major Trbic's superior

11 was in the command?

12 A. Drago Nikolic. He was in charge of security, him and Trbic both.

13 Q. And sir, do you recall whether or not you told the investigator in

14 Banja Luka in 2002, when you met for your interview, any of this

15 information about the reburial operation? Do you recall whether at the

16 time you mentioned any of this information to him?

17 A. Well, he did ask me questions, but at the moment I did not provide

18 any answers to him about that.

19 Q. And when do you recall first telling any investigator or anybody

20 about this reburial operation and the people that were involved in it and

21 your role in it?

22 A. I did not. Nobody ever asked me as to what, when, why. Nobody

23 ever asked me about that. If they had asked me, I would have told them.

24 MR. THAYER: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One question before we adjourn, because I suppose no

1 one would like to start the cross-examination at this late hour.

2 Mr. Lazarevic, during the days when you were called to go to Orahovac and

3 Kozluk, did you meet or see or speak to Major Trbic?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're talking about the initial

5 burials, the first time around?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Only the second time around,

8 during the exhumation operations, he was my superior for that operation.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. We will continue tomorrow afternoon,

10 Mr. Lazarevic, when the cross-examinations will start. In the meantime, I

11 need to tell you that between now and tomorrow, when you continue with

12 your evidence, you're not to discuss or talk to anyone in connection with

13 the subject matter of your testimony. Is that clear?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. Thank you,

16 everybody. We'll reconvene tomorrow.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of

19 August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

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