070905ED

Page 14789

1 Q. And can you describe for the Court approximately how many men in

2 your similar circumstances were brought down with you to the Jahorina

3 hotel?

4 A. I would say about 300 to 350.

5 Q. When you arrived at this location what were you told was going to

6 happen to you?

7 A. Nothing, just training. In the beginning before we had been

8 transferred to Jahorina we'd been told that actually we're just going to

9 be doing the guarding, like guarding duties of the municipalities and --

10 and nothing, nothing combat way type of duty to be concerned at all.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly ask you to make a brief

12 pause between questions and answers, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Our attention has been drawn by the

14 interpreters that they are encountering some problems. They would kindly

15 ask you to allow for a brief pause between question and answer since you

16 both speak the same language. Thank you.

17 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Sir, was there anyone in particular in charge of this training

19 that you just referred to a few moments ago?

20 A. Yes. There was a gentleman by the name of Dusko Jevic in control

21 of facility.

22 Q. And I'll ask you some more questions about him in a little while,

23 but while you were there, that is after your first day of arrival, were

24 there other busloads of men in your similar circumstances arriving or did

25 they all arrive in one batch with you?

Page 14790

1 A. I would say that there had been few batches of buses coming in.

2 Q. And would that have resulted in the total of approximately 300 to

3 350 men that you mentioned before, sir?

4 A. I believe so.

5 Q. Were you free to leave this -- this area or this facility?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And at some point were you issued any uniform or -- or equipment?

8 A. Yes, we had.

9 Q. Can you please describe that for the Trial Chamber?

10 A. We just had been -- one morning, I believe it was second morning,

11 we had been just lined up and given the uniform, and couple of days after

12 that we had been given the personal weapons.

13 Q. Would you please describe the uniform? How was it designed? What

14 colour was it?

15 A. Two-piece camouflage.

16 Q. And what kind of weapon were you issued, sir?

17 A. I would say it's automatic rifle which probably NATO would be

18 AK47.

19 Q. Were you issued any protective gear?

20 A. Yes, we have.

21 Q. And what was that, sir, and would you describe it, please?

22 A. It was a bullet-proof vest.

23 Q. Do you recall what colour it was?

24 A. Yes. It was light blue.

25 Q. And do you remember the quality of that -- that vest, sir, the

Page 14791

1 quality of the construction?

2 A. I wouldn't say it was too great. It was poor quality.

3 Q. Now, sir, I want to ask you a few questions about the structure

4 and organisation of yourself and the other men that were brought down to

5 Jahorina. From now on, sir, I'll just refer to them as recruits, okay?

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber how you and your fellow

8 recruits were organised?

9 A. We have been split in half like two divisions with further split

10 of every half into the four units and each of unit has been split in a

11 further four smaller units.

12 Q. Okay. You referred to two divisions. Did those divisions have a

13 name, platoon, company?

14 A. I don't -- I don't remember this at this present in time, but it

15 was -- I believe it was Company 1, Company 2.

16 Q. Okay. Do you remember the name of the person who commanded the

17 1st company?

18 A. The 1st company, I believe his name was Mane.

19 Q. Do you recall at all what he looked like?

20 A. Dark hair, medium -- medium to -- to larger build, strong. I

21 would say mid-30s then.

22 Q. Okay, sir. And -- I'm sorry, I didn't know if you were finished

23 with your answer.

24 A. I'm finished with my answer.

25 Q. And how about the commander of the 2nd Company? Do you remember

Page 14792

1 his name?

2 A. His name was Nedzo Ikonic.

3 Q. And can you offer any type of description for Mr. Ikonic?

4 A. A similar height like Mane. He was not as built as Mane. He was

5 slightly slimmer. Dark hair.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that the two companies were then

7 subdivided into four other units. Those four other units, can you recall

8 approximately how many men were in each of those four units, and if you

9 remember the name of -- that was given to those units, that would also be

10 helpful.

11 A. To be quite honest with you, I can't remember now but if -- if you

12 wouldn't mind if I could look up the statement that I have given before so

13 I can refresh my memory a bit.

14 Q. Okay, sir. We can do that, and that is your OTP witness statement

15 at page 5, and it is also page 5 of the B/C/S version. I think you'll

16 find the information there, and I'll just let you read it and let us know

17 when -- when and if your memory has been refreshed.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.

19 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You know we are not privy to prior witness

21 statements to the OTP or to others except that we get an indication that

22 they exist? I have here two witness statements purportedly made by the

23 witness. One goes to the 12th of December and the other one to the 18th

24 of December, both 1995.

25 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President.

Page 14793

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one are you --

2 MR. THAYER: I'm referring to the OTP witness statement that began

3 14 December and ended in 18 December as opposed to the statement to the

4 UNHCR which was taken earlier that month.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Could you verify also with the witness

6 the ERN number of the page that you just pointed out to him?

7 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President. That is ERN 00363825.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That -- Mr. Thayer, that doesn't correspond with

9 what we have here. If it's the 18th December 1995 OTP witness statement

10 that you are referring to, the B/C/S ERN is 0307 -- starts at 03074399 and

11 ends with 4418, and the English ERN 1499649 to 9672.

12 We want the witness to know that it's not the practice of this

13 Trial Chamber at least to have available prior witness out-of-court

14 statements, so we need, however, to be able to know precisely what he is

15 reading and what he is referring to.

16 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. I mean, we're proceeding this

17 way. If he had been here I would have handed it to him.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's one further reason why we need to inquire and

19 make sure --

20 MR. THAYER: Certainly.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- which document he's referring to.

22 THE REGISTRAR: [] Your Honour, I can assist. The

23 document provided to the witness in English, witness statement ERN

24 01499649.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And which page, Yaiza, is he reading?

Page 14794

1 THE REGISTRAR: [] He's reading the English version, page

2 number 6.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Page number 6. All right. That would help you

4 focus better, Mr. Thayer, and your -- the other Defence counsels, yes.

5 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

7 MR. THAYER:

8 Q. Sir, have you had an opportunity to review that page?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And let me just repeat the question I asked previously. Do you

11 remember the generic name of the individual units that the companies were

12 subdivided into?

13 A. I cannot recall any generic name of the unit, but, yeah, it was

14 Company 1 and Company 2, and we had four platoons per company.

15 Q. And, sir, do you recall the names of any of the platoon leaders?

16 A. In Company 1 platoon 1, Nedzo. That is the first name, but I

17 don't think it's the same person as the -- the Company 2 leader. It's

18 Company 1 platoon 2 Tomo, company 1 platoon 3 Nedzo again and company 1

19 platoon 4 is Goran.

20 Q. You've mentioned three Nedzos so far today. The second Nedzo who

21 you mentioned was a platoon leader, is that the same Nedzo as Nedzo Ikonic

22 or is it a different Nedzo?

23 A. We had different Nedzo.

24 Q. And within each of the platoons you indicated that they were

25 subdivided into four smaller units; is that correct?

Page 14795

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One -- one moment yes Mr. Lazarevic.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, just for the record I would like to

4 identify that witness is literally reading his statement out. This is

5 what I can see. If the witness cannot remember, that's all right for him

6 to look at it and refresh his memory, but reading his previous statement,

7 it's meaningless. I mean, I don't see the point of this kind of

8 examination.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. Do you wish to

10 comment on that Mr. Thayer?

11 MR. THAYER: Sir, having -- Mr. President, I'll ask him if he's

12 refreshed his --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly, or perhaps you can deal directly with

14 on this point with the witness who should know that he should be giving

15 testimony live and not reading from his previous statement. He may refer

16 to it, of course, if he needs to refresh his memory, but then his

17 testimony should be testimony and not reading out from the -- from the

18 previous statement.

19 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

20 MR. THAYER:

21 Q. Sir, you were -- you were furnished with a copy of your OTP

22 witness statement and you obviously had an opportunity to review it.

23 Having reviewed it, do you have an independent recollection of the names

24 of those platoon leaders without having to actually sit down and look at

25 it while you're answering the question?

Page 14796

1 A. To be quite honest with you it has happened 12 years ago so, yeah,

2 now if I'm more aware I would be able to tell the names without looking at

3 it.

4 Q. Okay. But the question is did reviewing that statement refresh

5 your recollection and enable you to answer the question without having to

6 read the document as you are answering the question? In other words,

7 could you answer the question now without making reference to the

8 document?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. One moment, Mr. Thayer. For the record lead

11 counsel for the Prosecution Mr. McCloskey has entered the courtroom.

12 MR. THAYER: And I don't know if that satisfies my friend. I

13 mean, I can ask him to answer the question again but I think we've --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness has understood precisely what

15 the point was and we can proceed. He can refresh his memory any time this

16 becomes necessary, but then his testimony should -- should not be reading

17 out from the previous statement.

18 MR. THAYER:

19 Q. Now, sir, within the smallest unit, that is the units within each

20 platoon, did those lowest-level units have somebody that was a leader of

21 any kind?

22 A. Not really. It was a one person out of lowest level that actually

23 was a person, not a leader in a grade state, but that was the person, like

24 a spokesperson of that part.

25 Q. And who appointed that lowest-level spokesperson, as you put it?

Page 14797

1 A. The leaders of the platoons.

2 Q. And that lowest-level spokesperson, was he somebody like yourself

3 and your fellow recruits or was he is somebody who was a regular special

4 police brigade member?

5 A. I would -- I would say it was the same person recruit that how --

6 appeared to be that he wore the same uniform. Everything was the same.

7 Q. Now, as for the platoons and the platoon leaders, you just

8 mentioned, I believe, four names. Were those platoon leaders recruits

9 like yourselves or regular special police brigade members?

10 A. They would be regular special -- they would be regular members.

11 Q. And which platoon were you in, sir?

12 A. (redacted)

13 Q. And who actually conducted your training? Who oversaw it?

14 A. It was overseen by the -- by the platoon leaders and by the

15 company leaders.

16 Q. And by the way, sir, do you recall the names of any of the platoon

17 leaders for the 2nd Company?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Would you please describe this training that you received. How

20 long did it last, and what did it consist in?

21 A. In the beginning it was purely fitness training, and then after we

22 did receive the training to get handle with the personal weapon, bits and

23 pieces of training with the mines, bits and -- we had the shootings as

24 well in target shooting, bits and pieces like in the hostage situation,

25 reacting of the hostage situation, like in the real life the proper

Page 14798

1 police -- a special police force member how would react in a hostage

2 situation, and we did -- had a brief training on -- with rocket-propelled

3 grenades.

4 Q. Now, during this period of -- of training, other than your

5 training officers, these platoon leaders and the -- the other regular

6 special police brigade members, the company leaders that you described,

7 did you see other regular special police brigade members in that area of

8 Jahorina where you were?

9 A. Yes. They used to be -- usually there is a -- there are other

10 facilities on -- on a close vicinity, different hotels that served in a

11 different purpose. I believe there was another station of the regular

12 Special Police Unit in Jahorina in different hotel and there was a hotel

13 for, I would say, politicians or -- we were not allowed to go into these

14 hotels.

15 Q. And were you and your fellow recruits treated any differently by

16 the superior officers at this Jahorina facility than the regular special

17 police brigade members were treated?

18 A. Definitely, yes. We have been mistrusted, been called deserters,

19 and were not allowed, actually, to move any further. We could not enter

20 these other two facilities. We would only be able to enter the facility

21 where we have been in.

22 Q. Now, you mentioned Dusko Jevic some time ago.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you just share any recollections you have of him during this

25 period of time with the Trial Chamber? What do you remember about him?

Page 14799

1 A. In which sense?

2 Q. Any sense is --

3 A. Can you please clarify the question?

4 Q. Certainly, sir. First of all, anything about his attitude,

5 anything about the way he trained you, anything he said or did that stands

6 out in your mind in particular. Let's start there first.

7 A. Okay. In the beginning he gave us a lecture how he's a soldier

8 and how every single soldier should be behaving in the combat and

9 especially when there is a prisoner of war that should be held and kept

10 under Geneva Convention and that there is no harm to be done to them under

11 no circumstances. If there is any mistreatment to be done to them, those

12 fighters are becoming more fierce fighters if they get exchanged, and they

13 take the arms on the other side, and that's -- that's pretty much it. And

14 sometimes he would -- it was -- it was pretty much contradictory person.

15 Sometimes he would be saying things like that and sometimes he would come

16 to us and say, like, to kill a person is not a big deal. It just -- you

17 know, you should kill one to see how not -- it's not hard.

18 Q. Did he ever tell you anything about what to do in terms of killing

19 a prisoner of war?

20 A. If -- if prisoner of war had to be killed it should be done in a

21 military way with the bullet and not with any other different type of

22 weapon.

23 Q. Do you remember anything in particular about his appearance, sir?

24 A. In -- in which sense?

25 Q. Do you recall anything about his physical appearance that stands

Page 14800

1 out in your mind? If not, that's okay. We'll move on.

2 A. Physical appearance like physical description of him or --

3 Q. Sure. We'll start there.

4 A. It was -- it was not -- not tall. He was not tall, dark hair,

5 moustaches, slim build. Looks like -- did look like Joseph Stalin.

6 Q. And in fact was he known by any particular nickname, sir?

7 A. Yes. That's what we had learned later on, that actually his

8 nickname was "Stalin."

9 Q. Now, sir, I want to move into a new area now. Did you receive an

10 order at some time to leave Jahorina?

11 A. Before we -- we have been shifted to the area of Potocari, no, but

12 when we have got the order, we had the alert, and we had quick assembly

13 and we had been informed that we are leaving for Potocari.

14 Q. And who do you recall issuing that order to you, sir?

15 A. When we have been assembled Mr. Jevic was there with somebody who

16 was of highest rank to him, and I did see that person briefly, and that

17 was just quick -- quick short statement and off you go.

18 Q. At that time, sir, before you departed were you told anything

19 about what your assignment was going to be?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And at that time, sir, before you departed what information, if

22 any, did you have about the progress of the military assault on the

23 Srebrenica enclave?

24 A. We had no information at all, absolutely nothing. We didn't know

25 what was going to happen to us. We were just -- didn't have any

Page 14801

1 information, nothing.

2 Q. So how did you actually leave Jahorina, sir?

3 A. If I can recall properly, on the buses.

4 Q. And who actually left?

5 A. All -- all -- all conscripts or how you're going to call them.

6 Everybody left.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Only -- only handful -- only handful of injured people or who had

9 medical problems had been left behind, but I would say everybody left.

10 Q. And forgive me if you've already answered this question. I know

11 you told us which platoon you were in, but which company were you in, sir,

12 and who was -- who was your company commander?

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. Did you leave the same day that you received this order, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And where did you go?

25 A. We ended up in school, if I could recall properly. We ended up in

Page 14802

1 a school near -- in the close vicinity. I really didn't know where --

2 where we were.

3 Q. You mentioned in the close vicinity. In the close vicinity of

4 what location, sir?

5 A. Probably in close vicinity of Potocari or Bratunac, somewhere

6 around there.

7 Q. And --

8 A. All I remember it was -- all I remember, it was near Drina River.

9 Q. And by any chance do you remember the village in which the school

10 was located, and if you don't, that's okay, we can just move on.

11 A. I don't recall that name now.

12 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of the day you arrived

13 there?

14 A. I would say it was late afternoon.

15 Q. And when you arrived there do you recall whether there were any

16 other units of the regular special police brigade or just ordinary police

17 officers or the army billeted at that same location?

18 A. I could not recall any of them. It was only us from Jahorina

19 camp.

20 Q. And did you spend the first night there, sir?

21 A. Yes, I believe so, yes.

22 Q. Okay. I'd like to ask you some questions now about the next day.

23 What was your assignment that day?

24 A. Our assignment that day was to go to Potocari and to secure

25 perimeters. We had been informed that the problems are not expected and

Page 14803

1 that we are just there to secure the compound.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. And do you recall what the -- the jump-off point was from where

5 you started to head into Potocari?

6 A. It was close to the UN post before Potocari, on the road. I don't

7 recall the particular point, but it was not very close to Potocari. It

8 was the UN post. It was actually the Dutch post that was there on road.

9 Q. And did (redacted) or any other officer tell you anything more, number

10 one, what to expect when you reached Potocari?

11 A. We have been told that there are going to be civilians, that

12 they're going to be shipped to Tuzla or exchanged, and there is no

13 problems to be expected. There won't be any problems there. And our task

14 there is to make sure that no federal army, if there is any members left,

15 can come in and hurt anybody.

16 Q. And prior to departing for this check-point, sir, or prior to

17 setting out towards Potocari what, if anything, were you told about what

18 your role, that is your fellow Jahorina members' role would be, if

19 anything, with respect to the civilians in Potocari?

20 A. I can't recall any, any particular orders apart of making sure

21 that everything goes okay.

22 Q. And when you say making sure everything goes okay, what are you

23 referring to, sir?

24 A. That there is no problem, actually to make sure that the civilians

25 are all right.

Page 14804

1 Q. And what was your understanding as to what was going to happen to

2 the civilians, sir?

3 A. My understand --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer the question. Yes,

5 Mr. Lazarevic.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that the witness already explained what

7 his actual task was. Everything in the last three questions, I don't

8 see -- I believe that this question is just repeating the previous ones.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the previous questions were -- and answers,

10 in particular, were rather broad and to an extent vague. In answering

11 this last question, he would probably clarify at least his understanding

12 of the order received.

13 MR. THAYER:

14 Q. Sir, did you understand the question?

15 A. Can you please repeat it?

16 Q. Sure. What was your understanding as to the role that you and

17 your fellow Jahorina members were supposed to take with respect to these

18 civilians?

19 A. To make sure that the civilians are not hurt and to -- to protect

20 them from any -- any possible attack from the federal army of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina. And my understanding was that they're going to all be

22 shipped to Tuzla.

23 Q. And what was your understand --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. There's one part I don't understand.

25 First what he understands by the federal army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

Page 14805

1 and then depending on his answer I will consider putting a second one.

2 Which was the federal army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, your

3 understanding?

4 THE WITNESS: My understanding is that is the army that is

5 Croatia and Muslim army.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And why would the BiH army, then -- the federation

7 did not exist as yet. Why would the BiH army, as distinguished from the

8 VRS army, want to -- or wish to harm Muslim civilians?

9 THE WITNESS: Probably some provoking attack or something like

10 that. Just it was made clear to us that we need to protect the civilians,

11 if anybody basically comes in shooting, to shoot back.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So, sir, your understanding was that the civilians,

13 Muslim civilians, needed to be protected from any possible provocative

14 attack by the BiH army.

15 THE WITNESS: That is correct, yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It also occurred to you that they could also

17 be the subject of attacks from the -- by the VRS, and was it your

18 understanding that you were there to protect them from that too?

19 THE WITNESS: No. No. At no point it was said that perhaps VRS

20 or any -- any part of any arm of Republika Srpska is going to do any harm

21 to the civilians.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

23 Mr. Thayer.

24 MR. THAYER:

25 Q. Now, sir, what was your understanding as to the role that you and

Page 14806

1 your fellow Jahorina members were to take with respect to the

2 transportation or evacuation of these civilians to Tuzla, as you had just

3 mentioned?

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object. This is --

5 THE WITNESS: To be quite honest with you --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We have an objection.

7 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that was a very, very leading question.

9 It already suggests that his unit had some tasks in respect to the

10 transport or evacuation. He was asked what was his understanding of the

11 task of his unit. He answered that. There is no -- he never suggested

12 they had anything to do with the evacuation or transportation. Now this

13 question is a very leading one. My colleague is literally putting words

14 into the mouth of the witness.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If anything, the question itself lends itself to

16 misinterpretation basically because I don't necessarily read it to mean

17 that the Jahorina members, including the witness, were tasked with the

18 transportation or evacuation of the civilians. The way I understand it at

19 least is knowing that there was going to be or you were told that there

20 was going to be a transportation or evacuation of those civilians to

21 Tuzla, what was your role?

22 MR. THAYER: If any.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: In that respect, if any, yes. That's how I read the

24 question. Although as it is as you put it I think it could lend itself to

25 the way Mr. Lazarevic understood it.

Page 14807

1 So now I think I've made it clear and if that is what you had in

2 mind asking the witness then the witness can proceed to answer the

3 question.

4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, that was precisely what I was trying

5 to ask.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And I thank you both, Mr. Thayer and Mr. Lazarevic.

7 Witness, perhaps now you can answer the question.

8 THE WITNESS: I don't think -- I never thought that we going to be

9 doing anything with the transportation. My belief was when I got there

10 and with the point when I have been posted that actually just stand there

11 because we really didn't know what are we doing there simply because we've

12 been told we're going to secure the premises to make sure nothing happens

13 to civilians.

14 MR. THAYER:

15 Q. Okay, sir. I just want to ask you one or two more questions on

16 this topic before we move on. Do you remember what you told the OTP

17 investigators on this topic when you met with them in December of 1995?

18 A. Would you mind if I look it up?

19 Q. Not at all, sir. I can direct your attention to your OTP witness

20 statement, the same one that we mentioned before at page 7. In English

21 the ERN is 01499655, and it's the paragraph that begins: "The next

22 morning we were assigned to reach the Dutch compound."

23 And for my friends following in B/C/S, I believe that is also page

24 7, and it is the top of the page, and this ERN is 03074405.

25 Do you see where it says: "Our mission was to prevent the Muslim

Page 14808

1 fighters from entering the area and we were also to take in charge the

2 evacuation of the civilians"?

3 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.

4 Q. Okay. My question, sir, is, number one, do you recall saying that

5 to the investigators in 1995?

6 A. When I see this on a statement, and back then in 1995 it was

7 closer to the event, I would -- I would say I did say that, yes.

8 Q. Now, the second question related to that, sir: Is that an

9 accurate statement, that your task was to prevent the Muslim fighters to

10 enter the area, which is what you've testified, and that you were also

11 supposed to take charge of the evacuation of the civilians?

12 A. Yes, we were supposed to take charge, yes, actually the unit

13 itself, but did it take charge, I don't know.

14 Q. Okay. I think I understand, sir. So we'll discuss what you

15 yourself and the people around you were doing and I'll ask you some

16 questions perhaps about what other members of the Jahorina contingent were

17 doing and then -- and we'll move on.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. Now, we're still on our way into Potocari on that -- that

20 morning. Do you recall approximately what time of the morning you set off

21 for Potocari?

22 A. If I could recall properly, it was around 9.00 in the morning.

23 Q. And did you set off on foot or by vehicle to enter Potocari?

24 A. On foot.

25 Q. And how did you proceed, sir?

Page 14809

1 A. We had went into the formation group of -- of guys on the one side

2 and group of guys on the other side. So-called tactical formation.

3 Q. And were you yourself walking in the field, as it were, on the

4 ground, or were you on a road of any kind?

5 A. We were on a road, yes.

6 Q. And was (redacted) among you as you entered Potocari?

7 A. I can't remember, to be quite honest with you.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. But I would say -- I would say that some of the leaders would be

10 there, yes.

11 Q. And can you estimate for the Trial Chamber approximately how long

12 it took you to reach the Dutch compound in Potocari?

13 A. Probably two to three hours, I think, walking.

14 Q. And did you hear any shooting or did you receive any fire,

15 gunfire, as you approached Potocari?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Would you please describe for the Trial Chamber, sir, what you saw

18 when you approached or when you actually came upon the UN compound there.

19 A. A lot of people. A lot of civilians there. They had been dressed

20 as civilians. Lots of women and children.

21 Q. And, sir, did you see them right at the Dutch compound itself in

22 that factory building, or did you see them somewhere else, that mass of

23 women and children?

24 A. In the Dutch compound.

25 Q. And did you also see Dutch soldiers at that time?

Page 14810

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Sir, did you continue down that road a little bit further beyond

3 the Dutch compound?

4 A. I can't recall it now, no.

5 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber the condition of these

6 civilians that you saw, both their physical condition, and if you can

7 describe their emotional state if you were able to observe that as well,

8 sir?

9 A. It was -- it was hot there and picture there was not really nice.

10 Childrens were crying. People were scared.

11 Q. What was your reaction, sir, personally to that?

12 A. I didn't like it.

13 Q. When you reached the base, when you reached this UN compound, did

14 you see any other special police brigade, regular special police brigade,

15 members or units there as well?

16 A. I believe there were some, yes.

17 Q. Do you recall whether there were any regular VRS, regular army

18 units or soldiers at the Dutch compound when you arrived, sir?

19 A. Not inside the Dutch compound, no. Nobody was inside the

20 compound, because Dutch soldiers would not allow nobody in -- in the Dutch

21 compound at that stage. And later on in the day I did see few members of

22 VRS as well.

23 Q. Do you recall any particular VRS units that stick out in your

24 mind, sir?

25 A. Yes. I did -- I did see a few members from Drina Wolves.

Page 14811

1 Q. And how was it that you knew that these people were with the Drina

2 Wolves?

3 A. There -- there was insignia on their left shoulder on their

4 uniforms on -- of wolf head.

5 Q. And how were you able to recognise these members of this regular

6 special police brigade that you saw down at the Dutch compound when you

7 arrived?

8 A. They -- they wore the similar insignia but different with -- with

9 the White Eagle, so you can distinguished, and it's written down on that

10 insignia what unit they belonged to.

11 Q. Okay. My last question before we take a break, sir, is can you

12 describe what the special police brigade patch looked like? I think you

13 started to a little bit, but if you could just describe what it looked

14 like as best as you can remember.

15 A. I can't remember now, that's the thing. It's 12 years down the

16 track.

17 Q. We understand, sir, and we'll move along.

18 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, if we can take the break now. I

19 think we've pretty much hit the mark.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Witness, we are going to have a short break

21 of 25 minutes, and then we'll resume soon after that. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

Page 14812

1 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Good evening again to you, Witness. Are you with us?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. We're still in Potocari. I just asked you about whether

5 you could remember the patches or emblems from the special police brigade.

6 Do you recall what the uniforms of the regular special police brigade

7 members looked like?

8 A. Yes. They are one-piece overall in camouflage colours.

9 Q. And the colours of the overalls were what, sir?

10 A. Camouflage.

11 Q. Okay. Blue, green, red, black?

12 A. From memory I'm not sure in Potocari, but from memory I know there

13 has been blue and green. At that stage I believe they were green.

14 Q. Okay. Now, can you describe how you and your Jahorina recruits,

15 fellow recruits, were deployed in Potocari?

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. And you described a road. What road was that, sir?

22 A. That was the road that we had been walking on to reach Potocari.

23 I believe it was the main road that was leading to Potocari.

24 Q. And did that main road run in front of the UN base?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14813

1 Q. Okay. How long did you remain in that location where you were

2 deployed?

3 A. Until late afternoon around 4.30, 5.00.

4 Q. And during that period of time what, if anything, did you see from

5 your position with respect to the civilians?

6 A. I could not see civilians. I did see -- the only person that I

7 had seen is the UN soldier on other side of the fence. I could not see

8 civilians at all.

9 Q. And at any time did you see any buses in and around the UN

10 compound?

11 A. At that time I can't remember seeing any buses in around the

12 compound.

13 Q. On this day when you were in Potocari, do you recall ever seeing

14 buses in that area?

15 A. I don't remember now.

16 Q. Okay, sir. Do you remember -- do you remember what you told the

17 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor back in 1995 about that

18 topic?

19 A. Not from 12 years down the track.

20 Q. Okay. Let me direct you to the same witness statement, and it's

21 at page 8. The ERN is 01499656, and the B/C/S, I believe, is also pages 7

22 through 8. Through the top of page 8, ending at 03074406.

23 Sir, let me just direct your attention to the paragraph that

24 starts: "I stayed there until the evening," and if you could just look at

25 the first couple of sentences right above that paragraph.

Page 14814

1 You discuss speaking with that Dutch officer -- or Dutch soldier,

2 and then it says: "From there I could see buses and trucks on the road

3 passing by. They arrived empty from the direction of Bratunac and they

4 were crowded with people when they returned towards Bratunac."

5 Let me ask you, sir, having read that portion of your statement,

6 does that refresh your recollection, number one, about what --

7 A. Yes, that would --

8 Q. Sorry, does that refresh your recollection about what you told the

9 OTP in 1995, first of all?

10 A. Yes, that would be correct. Yes.

11 Q. And is that your memory, sir?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Now, until I think you said about 16.30 did you leave that

14 position for any reason until that time?

15 A. Until that time, no.

16 Q. And why did you leave that position at that time?

17 A. I was hungry.

18 Q. Okay. So what did you do after that?

19 A. We went and we got some things to eat and tried to find some more

20 water and trying to regroup because we have been there as a lost sheep.

21 We didn't know what was happening, and plus we had been under the shock

22 being scooped so fresh from Serbia. So we really, really didn't know what

23 we're supposed to do next.

24 Q. Okay. During the course of that day did you see Mane in and

25 around the UN compound?

Page 14815

1 A. I haven't seen Mane in and around the UN compound at that point of

2 time, but when I was giving the statement, I have seen the video. I have

3 been shown the video where I have -- where I have recognised Mane on the

4 video.

5 Q. Okay. Well, we'll get to that a little bit later. What do you

6 recall Mane's role being, if any, during this day at Potocari?

7 A. From -- from the video shown, it appeared to me that he was

8 liaison officer of some sort with the gentleman from Dutch Battalion.

9 Q. And do you recall whether at the time you had any information or

10 that you learned any information or heard any information to indicate that

11 Mane was acting in this role as a liaison officer?

12 A. There was a rumour that he was taking the role as a liaison

13 officer. There was lots of rumour going in between the recruits.

14 Q. Now, where you were, sir, were you able to observe any of the

15 transportation of the civilians, either the grouping or the separation or

16 the boarding of any of the buses?

17 A. No.

18 Q. During the course of this day, did you receive any information

19 regarding who, if anyone, was taking part in that process of organising,

20 separating, and boarding the civilians on those buses?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, sir, before you give your answer.

22 Mr. Lazarevic.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, I just want to make one objection. I don't

24 believe there is a foundation for this question, because if we look at the

25 previous question, "During the course of this day, did you receive any

Page 14816

1 information --" well, before this. "Were you able to observe any of the

2 transportation of the civilian, either the grouping or the separation of

3 the boarding." The answer was "No," of the witness. So this question

4 that follows during the course did you receive any information was taking

5 part in process, we need to know whether he has knowledge about this

6 process going on, and if so then the follow-up question would be, Then how

7 did you receive any such information.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. I think one was

9 predicated over there on the other.

10 MR. THAYER: I think that was my question.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with his knowledge or otherwise of the

12 events that you mentioned, that is this group or separation or -- or

13 boarding of any of the buses, because you put them all in the alternative

14 and not cumulatively. We could deal with that first and then you can put

15 the second question to him afterwards.

16 MR. THAYER:

17 Q. Sir, at any time during that day did you receive any information

18 concerning what was actually happening to those civilians in Potocari?

19 A. After I have left that post where I had been, in talking with the

20 other guys of the same unit in the same uniform, we could recognise each

21 other in the same uniform. I have heard in a talk that actually there has

22 been some separation, but I haven't seen it.

23 Q. And --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally Mr. Thayer, while we are still on

25 particular day, the witness hasn't been asked and he hasn't furnished us

Page 14817

1 with any information as to the exact date when he first found himself in

2 Potocari. If he would remember the date.

3 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. I've had some conversations with

4 my friends on this topic. I'll put the question to the witness.

5 Q. Sir, do you recall what the date was that you arrived in

6 Potocari? Do you recall the date that you entered Potocari?

7 A. I would say it was 13th of July, in between 13th and 15th. I'm

8 not sure at this stage today in 2007, but it's there.

9 Q. Well, what is your recollection, sir, of the date that you left

10 Jahorina?

11 A. I believe thinking about it we perhaps left Jahorina on 13th, have

12 came to destination probably 14th we have been in Potocari. If I could

13 refresh my memory with the statement, but again you have to understand it

14 is 12 years down the track, and I am trying to suppress all these

15 memories.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. One other thing for the record. Mr. Haynes

17 for accused Pandurevic is now present in the courtroom.

18 Go ahead, Mr. Thayer.

19 MR. THAYER:

20 Q. Thank you, Witness. Maybe we'll come back to the actual dates a

21 little bit later. For now, though, I just want to work with what happened

22 on these particular days, and let me just clarify.

23 The first day we're talking about is the day you got the order to

24 leave Jahorina and that you left Jahorina; correct?

25 A. That is correct, yes.

Page 14818

1 Q. And the second day is the day you entered Potocari; that is

2 correct?

3 A. That is correct, yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, back to your conversation with your Jahorina

5 colleague. You told us that he passed on to you information that there

6 had been separations. Did he tell you whether he had any information

7 about who was participating in those separations? What did he tell you,

8 if anything?

9 A. I cannot recall it, I'm sorry.

10 Q. Okay. Just hang on a minute. Sir, I'd like to refer you to your

11 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. It's at page 9. At the very

12 top. It's ERN 01499657. And in the B/C/S that's at page 8, ERN

13 03074406.

14 I just want to refer you to the section -- do you see where it

15 says: "The evacuation was nearly over and from some conversations with

16 soldiers forcibly brought from Serbia like myself who were in charge of

17 overseeing the evacuation I learnt that 500 people had been evacuated from

18 the UN compound and approximately 5.000 from Potocari"? First I want to

19 ask you, sir, do you recall whether or not you actually said that to the

20 investigators in 1995?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Is that a correct statement of what you heard?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. The next sentence is: "I heard that some soldiers and policemen

25 had separated people before they boarded the buses. These people were

Page 14819

1 taken to a house to be interviewed and after that put on buses and

2 evacuated. I did not see anything and this was what was told to me."

3 Do you recall saying that to the investigators in 1995, sir?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And is that accurate. That portion that I just read to you, is

6 that true? Did that happen? Did you hear that?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Sir, do you recall seeing Dusko Jevic at any time during this day

9 when you were in Potocari?

10 A. Just briefly, yes.

11 Q. And what was he doing, if you can remember?

12 A. He was just standing up on the front of the house.

13 Q. And which house is that, sir?

14 A. It was the house and a photo was shown to me in -- when I had --

15 when I'd given the evidence, and that was the house. It was the "White

16 House." I didn't pay too much attention to it.

17 Q. And that "White House", where in relation to the entrance to the

18 UN compound is it located?

19 A. It's on the other side of the road, if I can recall it correctly.

20 Q. Now, sir, in the conversation that you had with your fellow

21 Jahorina members, did they tell you what role, if any, Mane played in the

22 separation of the men and women?

23 A. I don't recall hearing anything of that role, if there was any.

24 Q. Do you have any information or recollection as to where Mane was

25 posted or operating during this day?

Page 14820

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Lazarevic.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: And I object. This question was already asked and

3 answered. Before the break I believe that my colleague already asked

4 whether he saw Mane on that day and whether he has any knowledge of what

5 Mane did on this day, and the witness, I believe, said that he doesn't

6 have any knowledge on this.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

8 One moment.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. -- we think Mr. Lazarevic's objection

11 should be sustained. Please move to your next question, Mr. Thayer.

12 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.

13 Q. Now, sir, did you spend the night in Potocari or did you return to

14 the school near Bratunac?

15 A. We have returned to school near Bratunac.

16 Q. And prior to returning, did you and your Jahorina recruits gather

17 anywhere?

18 A. We did gather not immediately before the return but when we were

19 around, you know, for food and water. We did gather around the house

20 where the water was and we did see some women and children there and we

21 gave them the food.

22 Q. Okay. Well, let's just talk about that for a second. What was

23 the reaction, if any, that the civilians had to you when they saw you?

24 A. They were scared.

25 Q. Now, did you leave Potocari in the buses?

Page 14821

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And at any time prior to -- at any time prior to leaving on the

3 buses were you mustered and reviewed?

4 A. I don't think so.

5 Q. Okay. Well, let's just take a moment and if I could just refer

6 you again to your statement at page 9, ERN 01499657. And that is also on

7 page 8, ERN 03074406, of the B/C/S version.

8 I just direct your attention to the line that begins: "I left

9 Potocari...." Do you see that, sir?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether you did anything before you left,

12 whether they were organised in any way?

13 A. We had been organised as a formation in front of the compound and

14 boarded the bus.

15 Q. And do you recall approximately what time that was?

16 A. It would be probably around 9.00, 9.00 p.m.

17 Q. And did you spend the night at that school?

18 A. Yes, we did.

19 Q. Okay. That brings us to the next day, sir. Can you tell the

20 Trial Chamber what your assignment was that day?

21 A. The following day we were supposed to have a day off, but in the

22 afternoon we had been called up to relieve our colleagues, that they have

23 been somewhere, and that was on a stretch of the road between Konjevic

24 Polje and Kravica.

25 Q. And were you told what your colleagues had been doing on that

Page 14822

1 road?

2 A. Not at that point, no.

3 Q. So what did you do, sir?

4 A. We had boarded the buses and we went.

5 Q. And can you recall and describe the general location where you

6 were taken?

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. Okay. You indicated that this road ran between Kravica and

14 Konjevic Polje. Had you ever --

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. Had you ever been to this area before that you recall?

17 A. Never in my life.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14823

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 Q. Okay. That's fine, sir. You indicated that you were replacing

9 your fellow Jahorina members. Did you see any members of the regular

10 special police or any other military units there when you arrived?

11 A. To my memory there was -- we had seen few guys from the special

12 police, yes.

13 Q. And do you recall whether there was any attempt to communicate

14 with any Muslim men?

15 A. Yes. There had been calls on a megaphone to come down and they're

16 going to be shipped away and exchanged.

17 Q. And do you recall to which unit the person who was doing that

18 belonged?

19 A. To my memory, it was regular special police force.

20 Q. And let me just ask you again, sir, because I think I asked you a

21 compound question before and I apologise. Do you recall seeing any

22 regular army units or soldiers in this location when you arrived?

23 A. Where, in school or where? Can you clarify the question, please?

24 Q. Yes, sir. When you arrived at this area that you described as

25 (redacted)

Page 14824

1 A. Mm-hmm. I haven't seen to my knowledge, to my memory, any members

2 of military at that stage then.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. And physically would you please describe for the Trial Chamber how

11 exactly you and your Jahorina recruits were deployed along that road? How

12 many and what distances approximately?

13 A. It was -- it was two approximately every 50 to 100 metres again,

14 but it was in pairs.

15 Q. And could you see your fellow recruits to your left and your right

16 from where you were standing?

17 A. On the road, yes, I could.

18 Q. And when you were deployed to the road, what was your assignment

19 while you were on that road? To do what, sir?

20 A. Just to be on the road and perhaps collect any -- anybody that

21 comes down, or to prevent any forcible passing through from -- from the

22 mountains.

23 Q. And when you say perhaps to collect people that were coming down,

24 can you be more precise about what you're talking about, sir?

25 A. If was anybody coming down to surrender, our task was perhaps to

Page 14825

1 take them and -- and just pass them on.

2 Q. Okay, sir. Was that perhaps your assignment or was that in fact

3 your assignment while you were on the road?

4 A. We hadn't been debriefed about assignments as such, and I don't

5 recall being given any tasks as such. We just have been told that we need

6 to be there on a stretch of the road. If anybody surrenders, alert your

7 authorities so you can pass the prisoners.

8 Q. And as you sit here today, sir, do you have any recollection of

9 who passed on those instructions to you?

10 A. Those instructions would have been passed by the command -- by the

11 platoon leaders.

12 Q. Now, that -- that actual day when you first arrived to this

13 location (redacted) and when you were deployed, did you personally

14 take part in any surrender by any Muslims that day?

15 A. Nobody did surrender to me and my colleague directly. Whoever was

16 surrendering, there was about 100, 150 metres away from us, uphill there

17 was a small road coming from the mountains, and whoever was coming from

18 the mountain was going along those -- along that road.

19 Q. Okay. Please continue.

20 A. And they would go to -- to the other guys. And then the other

21 guys would get the men and -- and call for -- for whoever is going to

22 come -- come to pick them up and just sit them and -- and guard them for

23 the prisoners to be picked up.

24 Q. And when you say other guys, sir, are you referring to your fellow

25 Jahorina -- your fellow Jahorina members, the -- the regular special

Page 14826

1 police brigade members, or both?

2 A. Along the stretch of the road to my knowledge from what I've seen

3 we have been from fellow Jahorina, and if anybody would surrender at that

4 point in time to that stretch of road, it could be surrendering to

5 Jahorina guys. And then they would be calling in to their -- like whoever

6 is on the top of them, informing them that actually we have a prisoner or

7 somebody has got a prisoner, and then the vehicle would show up and pick

8 them up.

9 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you just a question about the

10 communications. How were people communicating with each other amongst

11 yourselves, your Jahorina colleagues, and the superior officers?

12 A. Well, all depends how high you're going superior officers in

13 between us. We're just talking. We didn't have any other mean of

14 communications. And it was above us, the guys, they had hand-held two-way

15 radios.

16 Q. And what level soldier or special police member had those two-way

17 radios?

18 A. To my recollection the two-way radio was given to these guys

19 that -- Jahorina members who were in charge of these smaller units to

20 report to their commanding officers.

21 Q. Okay. Now, when -- when you say Jahorina members, do you recall

22 whether any of the recruits like yourself had these two-way radios, or

23 were the only people with two-way radios regular special police members?

24 A. Some of the members of Jahorina, very few, had these two-way

25 radios.

Page 14827

1 Q. Okay. And what do you recall the regular special police brigade

2 members doing during this day when people were surrendering?

3 A. They were just calling them down, to my knowledge. They were

4 calling them down.

5 Q. And when these buses arrived to take the prisoners away, were the

6 prisoners escorted on these buses? Were they guarded?

7 A. I would say so.

8 Q. Well, do you recall whether it was Jahorina members guarding them

9 or regular special police brigade members or someone else.

10 A. On the buses -- on the buses definitely not Jahorina members. And

11 I'm not sure about the regular special police members and -- and the army,

12 I'm not sure about that, but to my recollection on these buses Jahorina

13 members were not on. Jahorina members were going with the other vehicles

14 later on. You know, day or two down the track.

15 Q. Do you recall the coordination and communication, if any, between

16 the Jahorina recruits like yourself and the special police brigade, the

17 regular special police brigade members, who were there in this area?

18 A. I don't recall any direct communication. I haven't seen it.

19 Q. Well, did you have an understanding based on any information that

20 you received what the communication or coordination was between the

21 Jahorina members and the regular special police brigade members?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

23 Mr. Lazarevic.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe it's basically the same question that

25 was posed a second ago. The witness, I believe, clearly answered that he

Page 14828

1 has -- he doesn't recall any direct communication between these two.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Thayer.

5 MR. THAYER: I just interpreted his answer to mean personal.

6 That's why I went to the general in my follow-up question.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's still the same thing, but if you can bring out

8 the difference between the previous question and this one, explain it, in

9 other words, to the witness, then you may put the question, but you need

10 to rephrase it of course.

11 MR. THAYER:

12 Q. Sir, did you become aware at any time during this day as to

13 whether there was any communication or coordination of any kind between

14 the regular Jahorina members and the regular -- I'm sorry, the Jahorina

15 recruits like yourself and the regular special police officers?

16 A. To my knowledge I didn't know that there was any direct

17 communication. What was more a feeling is that we were like sheep there.

18 We didn't know what to do. So when we had been posted somewhere, we stood

19 there without asking many questions.

20 Q. Well, do you recall who would be consulted if you did have

21 questions?

22 A. If I did have a question I would have to go through the Jahorina

23 member who had the two-way radio and ask the question or raise an issue,

24 and he would call up whomever he needs to call up to resolve the issue.

25 Q. Okay. Sir. Do you remember what you said on this issue in your

Page 14829

1 deposition taken in 2002?

2 A. No, not really.

3 Q. If I showed you a portion of that transcript, do you think that

4 might help refresh your recollection?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Let me direct you to page 12 of the English, lines 23 to 32.

7 That's ERN 01499695 in the English and page 10 of the B/C/S at 03074530,

8 the third question and answer on that page.

9 Do you see the question: "How was it when the prisoners were

10 collected that you were able to notify somebody that they needed to be

11 picked up?" And your answer.

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Do you see the answer, "There was a group of the normal regular

14 police force and they had such device and somebody would run to them and

15 tell, like, we have a few prisoners"? Do you see that, sir?

16 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Okay. Do you recall saying that during the deposition?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Is that an accurate statement, sir?

20 A. It would be, is he.

21 Q. And the following question: "Where was the contingent of regular

22 special police located?" And your answer is, "A bit further up, maybe

23 half a K."

24 A. Yeah half a kilometre.

25 Q. Just a clarification. When you refer to having such a device what

Page 14830

1 are you talking about, sir?

2 A. Two-way radio.

3 Q. Okay. So you're referring to contacting the regular special

4 police brigade officers via two-way radio; is that correct?

5 A. That is correct, yes.

6 Q. Sir, I want to ask you some questions about another series of

7 events. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what, if anything, you recall that

8 stands out in your mind happening later that day, that same day that you

9 arrived (redacted)

10 A. (redacted)

11 (redacted) And very, very late in the

12 afternoon, early, early evening, (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. Please continue, sir.

17 A. And on which the reaction was, "Really? Are you crazy? What are

18 you saying?" (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. Now, sir, (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14831

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14832

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Thayer, something that needs some

16 clarification.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 MR. THAYER:

25 Q. Sir, did you understand Mr. President's question?

Page 14833

1 A. Yes, I did, sir. (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14834

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14835

1 (redacted)

2 Q. Now, sir on this -- on this first day when you were deployed along

3 the road, did you begin hearing about any (redacted) executions which

4 occurred in this area?

5 A. Not in the first day but one or two days down the track, yes.

6 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber what you heard and from whom.

7 A. I heard it from the fellow recruit that actually has been in one

8 of the escorts with the smaller vehicle of some of the prisoners to a

9 store facility in Kravica, that actually that has been something.

10 Q. And when you refer to a store facility, what kind of facility or

11 structure are you talking about, sir?

12 A. A warehouse.

13 Q. And what did this fellow Jahorina member tell you happened at this

14 warehouse?

15 A. These prisoners that we are supposed to be sent and exchanged to

16 Tuzla actually have been executed there.

17 Q. And what was this fellow recruit's reaction to this?

18 A. He was cursing. He could not believe what is happening, because

19 we have had far too many shocks in a short distance, in short period of

20 time that we have been there and we just could not believe that that is

21 happening.

22 Q. Did he tell you who was executing these prisoners, what unit the

23 killers belonged to?

24 A. He did mention that they did belong to a regular special police

25 force.

Page 14836

1 Q. Now, sir, do you recall approximately how many days you spent

2 deployed along this stretch of road while the Muslims were surrendering?

3 A. To my knowledge and to my recollection around five days.

4 Q. And did you also receive at some point a new assignment that had

5 to do with this road that you were posted on?

6 A. Not to my knowledge, no. And those five days that we have been on

7 a stretch of road I cannot recall any new assignments.

8 Q. Do you recall being tasked along with some regular VRS units to

9 sweep the terrain anywhere?

10 A. Yes, but that was after we had been withdrawn from the stretch of

11 the road.

12 Q. Okay. Can you describe approximately how long after you had

13 withdrawn from that stretch of the road you were given this new

14 assignment, sir?

15 A. When we have been retrieved from the stretch of the road I believe

16 we had been given half of the day off or even whole day off and then we

17 would sweep the terrain with -- with military force the following day.

18 Q. So can you just describe personally what you did during this sweep

19 operation?

20 A. Personally we had every person to my left and my right every

21 probably two to three metres and walking along the bushes and the trees

22 and trying to find any survivors or prisoners or anything. Just to sweep

23 the forest.

24 Q. And do you recall the approximate location in which you performed

25 this sweep?

Page 14837

1 A. No, sir, it was a mountain.

2 Q. Do you recall in relation to Kravica where you were performing

3 this sweep or in relation to Konjevic Polje? And if you can't remember,

4 that's fine, I'll move on, but I just want to see what your recollection

5 is.

6 A. I really cannot recollect, but my -- I believe that it was from

7 Kravica towards Konjevic Polje.

8 Q. And did you encounter any Muslims during this sweep, whether they

9 were alive or dead?

10 A. We did. We did encounter a few dead bodies, and not close to me.

11 It was a few left like pocket of resistance that actually was higher up in

12 the mountain that actually regular police force was called in to deal

13 with.

14 Q. And did you see or did you become aware of any Muslims

15 surrendering during this sweep operation, sir?

16 A. Not to me, but when we came down I did see few people did

17 surrender, yes.

18 Q. And when you say a few people, can you describe the size of this

19 group of people?

20 A. Probably around, I don't know, 10 to 20. I'm not sure.

21 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you told the investigators from the

22 OTP during your interview in 1995 on this topic?

23 A. Would you mind if I had a look?

24 Q. I'll give you the site. Hold on one second, please. If you

25 turn -- sir, if you turn to page 14 of your OTP witness statement. In the

Page 14838

1 English that's ERN 01499662. And in the B/C/S I believe that's page 12,

2 ERN 03074410. And I just draw your attention to the second paragraph

3 headed "Sometime later."

4 A. Yes, I can see this.

5 Q. Do you see where it says: "While you were on the road we saw the

6 military unit coming downhill with a group of about 100 to 150 prisoners"?

7 A. Yes, I do see that.

8 Q. Do you recall -- do you recall saying that to the investigators at

9 the time, sir?

10 A. Yes, I do, and this was in referral to the army people, and I

11 did -- I did say -- just on this note, I did say that my estimate might

12 not be accurate, because I don't think that my estimate would be accurate.

13 Q. Okay. Let me ask you. As you sit here now, what is your best

14 recollection of how many prisoners this group of army soldiers came down

15 the hill with?

16 A. It definitely would be two busloads, and that would be probably in

17 the vicinity of 100 to 150, but I just wanted to make sure that you don't

18 take me that it was 100 or 150, because my estimates are not that great

19 with numbers and age.

20 Q. Fair enough, sir. And do you know where these prisoners were

21 taken and by whom?

22 A. They have been boarded on buses and taken away.

23 Q. Was this by the army or by the special police brigade?

24 A. I cannot recall that, because I believe that some of the drivers

25 I've seen have been civilians, and it's difficult to differentiate who's

Page 14839

1 who when everybody is wearing camouflage uniform, and you can

2 differentiate between camouflage uniform and civilian clothes, and it's

3 very hard to make a judgement when you had whole day walking through the

4 woods on a -- on a hot day, very tired, very stressed out. It's very,

5 very difficult to -- to make correct observation.

6 Q. Fair enough, sir. And if I may, let me just go back to the time

7 when you were deployed along that road from Kravica to Konjevic Polje and

8 were waiting for prisoners and being on the lookout for prisoners

9 surrendering. Do you recall whether you during that period of time, any

10 time while you were posted there during that five days as you recall the

11 number of days, do you recall whether you personally took any Muslim who

12 surrendered into custody?

13 A. Not myself. Myself and my partner, we did have one attempt of

14 surrendering, and we just waved the person to go away. We just told him

15 to go -- just waved to go away. We didn't want to take them in.

16 Q. Did you observe any Muslims surrendering during that five days in

17 your vicinity, sir?

18 A. It was one particular surrendering of one Muslim fighter or

19 civilian or how you call it that actually is in my memory. The guy came

20 in, probably around 150 to 200 metres uphill, up-road, surrendering to a

21 person, recruit from Jahorina, and on the point of surrendering he had

22 handmade grenade that actually he has throw down on this person, and that

23 Muslim that has been surrendering has been shot in self-defense. But the

24 person, we have been told later that actually the person, the Jahorina

25 recruit was severely disabled with that incident. He was alive but

Page 14840

1 severely disabled.

2 Q. Now, sir, other than the first day on which you arrived (redacted)

3 (redacted), after that first day whether or not you personally saw any

4 Muslim surrendering, can you estimate for the Trial Chamber based on what

5 you were hearing how many Muslims were surrendering on a given day while

6 you were posted there?

7 A. On a given day when we were posted there, on the first day there

8 was a lot of people there before we arrived. On our arrival it was a lot

9 of people, but everyday it was very few, not much, not many, and going

10 into the third, fourth, and fifth day it was basically nothing.

11 Q. Now, sir, back to this -- the sweep operation. How many days did

12 you spend doing that?

13 A. One.

14 Q. And where were you deployed next?

15 A. I believe we went back to Jahorina.

16 Q. And is it fair to say, sir, just to move things along, that after

17 that you were deployed in the Manjaca area and elsewhere through the fall

18 of 1995?

19 A. Yes. That is correct, yes, but not through Jahorina unit. In --

20 through Jahorina unit after we had been on Potocari and after mission, we

21 have been sent to guard the lines on a nearby hill, but with Manjaca that

22 was afterwards, after Jahorina.

23 Q. And you were -- you were made part of a -- of a different brigade;

24 is that correct?

25 A. That is correct, yes.

Page 14841

1 Q. And would you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how your

2 military service came to an end? Again without, if you can, identifying

3 yourself in any way.

4 A. After we went on Manjaca and when we came back to the base

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 Q. Okay, sir. I just have a little bit more time that I want to

9 spend with you, and I'd like to show you some brief video clips. I think

10 you've already described them or referred to them, and with any luck

11 you'll be able to see them through the transmission.

12 MR. THAYER: With the Court's indulgence, I just want to verify.

13 Mr. President, for the record we will be reviewing a segment from

14 the trial video, Exhibit number P02047. The -- the first segment will run

15 from 2 hours 25 minutes and 55.00 seconds.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. THAYER:

18 Q. Sir, first of all, are you receiving the video feed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. We've paused for the record at 2:26:18:3. Do you recognise

21 anyone in this video still?

22 A. Okay. I don't know the gentleman standing there with the

23 bullet-proof vest, but that person is more than likely a person that has

24 been brought from Serbia in Jahorina camp with us. And the gentleman on

25 our right-hand side, by the appearance I would say he is a UN soldier.

Page 14842

1 Q. And, sir, what makes you say that you believe that the other

2 person without the blue beret was a Jahorina recruit like yourself?

3 A. Same bullet-proof vest.

4 Q. Okay, sir. We're going to continue to run the video clip.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. THAYER:

7 Q. Now, sir, you've seen this video clip before. We're pausing at

8 2:26 -- bear with us. We're having technical difficulties.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: And I apologise. I cannot see the witness, the

10 image of the video. I don't have the image of the witness from (redacted).

11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but that's how it has to be. Whenever we are

12 playing a video, then automatically you get a blank screen.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I apologise then for

14 interrupting.

15 MR. JOSSE: I think you might need a redaction there, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Mr. Lazarevic [inaudible].

17 [Videotape played]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes.

19 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'm being advised by the court

20 reporter that she just needs the page and line citation for the redaction

21 again. It wasn't picked up. It wasn't audible for her.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The page is page 62 of our transcript, line 25.

23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

25 MR. THAYER: May I proceed?

Page 14843

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead. Thank you.

2 MR. THAYER:

3 Q. Sir, we've paused at 2:26:27:4. Having viewed this video clip

4 previously and seen it again now, do you recognise any one in this video

5 still.

6 A. The gentleman and the left is the gentleman that disguised himself

7 by the name Mane.

8 Q. Okay. Sir. We are going to show you a second video clip that

9 will run for approximately three and a half minutes. And for the record,

10 this will begin at 2:45:37.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. THAYER:

13 Q. Now, sir, we've just reviewed a video clip shot from a car on this

14 road. We have paused at 2:47:23:1. First I ask you whether you were able

15 to observe any soldiers being deployed along that stretch of the road on

16 this video clip.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And how does that correspond to your recollection of how you and

19 your fellow Jahorina members were deployed while you were there?

20 A. That was us.

21 Q. Now, showing you this particular video still at the time I've

22 mentioned. Do you recognise what unit this individual depicted in it

23 belongs to?

24 A. That gentleman was from Jahorina, but from which particular unit I

25 don't recollect.

Page 14844

1 Q. Okay, sir. We'll just continue running for another minute or so.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. THAYER:

4 Q. Sir, we've stopped at 2:47:52:6. Do you recognise to which unit

5 the individual in this video still belonged?

6 A. That gentleman did belong to Jahorina unit as well.

7 Q. Do you recall the names of either of these two men as you sit here

8 today?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Okay, sir, just a couple of more questions for you. Sir, are you

11 aware of any investigation being initiated by the Republika Srpska special

12 police brigade following deployment of the forces including your forces to

13 Potocari and the road that you described in July of 1995? Are you aware

14 of any investigation being initiated?

15 A. Investigation, you mean of what?

16 Q. Of any activities by the Special Police Brigade or by your

17 Jahorina unit. Are you aware of any investigation being initiated by the

18 RS special police following your deployment there?

19 A. I was too low to had such a knowledge of anything like that. Even

20 if it was initiated, which I'm not aware of, I would definitely not heard

21 about it.

22 Q. Okay, sir. Well, let me ask you, did Dusko Jevic or Mane or any

23 other officer from the Jahorina training centre ask you for a report

24 concerning the actions of you and your fellow colleagues or regular

25 special police members concerning your activities in Potocari and along

Page 14845

1 that road in July of 1995?

2 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

3 Q. What were you told at the time, sir, would happen to you, if

4 anything, if you ever spoke about these events?

5 A. We would end up in The Hague being tried for war crimes.

6 Q. Were you ever threatened in any way concerning your personal

7 safety if you ever spoke about these events?

8 A. I don't recall any direct threats, but we have been told that

9 actually we might be -- we will be picked up and get prosecuted by The

10 Hague Tribunal.

11 Q. And who told you that, sir?

12 A. To my recollection that gentleman would have been Dusko Jevic.

13 Q. And when did he tell you that, if you remember?

14 A. It would have been -- I don't remember to pinpoint the accuracy,

15 but it would have been on the end of all events.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One -- one question while you check whatever you're

17 checking, Mr. Thayer.

18 Witness, when according to you this Dusko Jevic gave you this

19 warning or threat, were you alone at the time with him or were there

20 others present --

21 THE WITNESS: No. No, I'm sorry to interrupt, but no. We had all

22 been said in group, in the various group that at the time it was believed

23 in 1995 that Hague is only to be tried to Serbs and -- and we've been

24 there. We will be tried on Hague if we ever spoke about anything.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 14846

1 MR. THAYER:

2 Q. Sir, just one follow-up question. Do you remember what you said

3 in your deposition about any threats that you received?

4 A. Would you mind if I look up and refresh my memory?

5 Q. I'll refer you to page 35, line 23 in the English. And I believe

6 that's page 30, ERN 03074550 of the B/C/S and the ERN on the English is

7 01499718.

8 The question was put to you: "Do you recall being threatened with

9 death if you ever told anybody what you had seen..." Do you see that

10 question, sir? I know this isn't easy, sir.

11 A. This question is --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Sorry to interrupt you, but we have an

13 objection.

14 Mr. Lazarevic.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that the witness should read the whole

16 paragraph because frankly from what comes from following lines it's

17 basically the same that he said right now.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We don't have -- thank you,

19 Mr. Lazarevic. We don't have a copy of the statement, so we take your

20 word for it, and I suggest the witness to follow the advice of -- or

21 suggestion of Mr. Lazarevic and read the entire paragraph and then perhaps

22 he can proceed to answer the question.

23 THE WITNESS: "Do you recall being threatened with death if you

24 ever told anybody that you had seen or what you have to be -- or that you

25 would have to be tried before a criminal tribunal for war crimes?"

Page 14847

1 Answer: "Yes."

2 "Who would threaten in that manner?"

3 "If everybody, all superior officers, they used to come around and

4 tell us, like, if you go and talk about anything about war, about here,

5 you're going to end up in The Hague. You like struck in Bosnia. You have

6 nowhere to go. If you go they're going to grab you. They're going to

7 trial you."

8 MR. THAYER:

9 Q. Do you remember -- do you remember giving that answer, sir?

10 A. Yes. And I did give correct answer yes, we have been threatened

11 that we have -- that we going to be prosecuted in The Hague but not

12 directly death threats, because there is -- I believe there are two

13 questions in this question, and I did answer this question with yes. Not

14 direct life threats but it was a threat.

15 Q. Well, let me refer you to another statement that you gave even

16 before your statement to the OTP in December of 1995. This is the

17 statement to the UNHCR. In English it's 01499641, paragraph 19. And in

18 the B/C/S it's page 3, also paragraph 19, 03074666.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Mr. Lazarevic.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, it's a matter of clarification

21 whether we are going to consider it to be a witness statement or just

22 notes taken from the interview of the witness, because I would really like

23 to be fair toward witness and I believe that my colleague also have same

24 intent. This was not written by the witness. This is sort of notes from

25 the statements that witness gave to -- to officials of UNHCR.

Page 14848

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer can answer that. We cannot.

2 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, my submission is that this is a very,

3 very detailed recordation by somebody that interviewed this witness, and I

4 can clarify the basis for this document in a question for the witness and

5 then ask him one question and we'll be concluded.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The whole thing boils down to the following: Is

7 that other statement, the way you've described or referred to it, is it a

8 collection of notes taken during an interview with the witness or is it a

9 verbatim transcript of a recording of an interview with the witness by

10 someone else?

11 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I would say it's in between. It's a

12 very detailed narrative account based on the interview or interviews that

13 he had with the UNHCR in much the same way that a witness statement is

14 recorded by the investigator. Although I don't think this was signed by

15 the -- by the witness, it is a document that is drawn up based on

16 obviously whatever notes were taken during the course of the interviews

17 and turned into a very detailed report, as it were. I would refer to it

18 as a report.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Thayer. I think for the

20 time being you may proceed, and then we regulate your questions if

21 necessary, and if Mr. Lazarevic draws our attention to any problem that he

22 envisages. Go ahead.

23 MR. THAYER:

24 Q. Sir, in paragraph 19, and you were referred to in this document

25 simply by some initials, "IC," do you see where it says, "'IC' was

Page 14849

1 threatened of death if he told anyone what he saw and that if he did so he

2 would have been tried by a tribunal for war crimes"? Do you see that,

3 sir?

4 A. Before -- yes, I can see that, but before we continue discussing

5 this statement given in UNHCR, I just would like to make a point that I

6 did raise a lot of discrepancy in this statement simply because

7 interpreter was Macedonian with a poor command of Serbian language, and I

8 did raise lots of discrepancy in this statement, and I don't agree with --

9 with some of the things in the statement.

10 Q. Well, my final question to you is simple, sir. Do you agree or

11 disagree with the statement made here in this document that you were

12 threatened with death if you ever spoke about these events?

13 A. I disagree that I had been --

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Overlapping speakers]... that--

15 THE WITNESS: -- threatened with death.

16 MR. THAYER: Thank you for the clarification, sir. I have no

17 further questions.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I --

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe he disagreed and I --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- also made an objection.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It is being corrected now, Mr. Lazarevic.

23 So thank you Mr. Thayer, and thank you, Witness, for your

24 cooperation.

25 We need to have a break now. We'll have a 25-minute break, but

Page 14850

1 before we do so, let me see, is there a problem? Does any one of the

2 accused have a problem? No.

3 All right. We'll have -- if you have a problem, speak up.

4 Okay. We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's first have a revised estimate of the

8 anticipated cross-examinations. The Pandurevic, Gvero, and Nikolic teams

9 have indicated that they don't wish to cross-examine this witness. Is

10 that still the position? Okay.

11 Mr. Zivanovic for --

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will not cross-examine this witness, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Meek.

15 MR. MEEK: Nothing, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Nothing. All right.

17 Madam Fauveau.

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We have no questions, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, madam.

20 So basically that leaves you, Mr. Lazarevic. Take your time, and

21 I understand that the witness is available also tomorrow.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I believe that there's --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, Mr. Lazarevic.

24 Yes, Yaiza.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [] Well, in fact, we're wanting to know

Page 14851

1 if we will need to be here tomorrow because we need to organise here

2 since -- yeah, wanting to have -- to make some arrangements.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. In fact, my next --

4 THE REGISTRAR: [] [Indiscernible].

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 MAGISTRATE (redacted): [Indiscernible].

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I couldn't hear Magistrate (redacted)

8 MAGISTRATE (redacted): Tomorrow it [Realtime transcript read in

9 error "does"] doesn't pose a difficulty, Mr. President, but if it goes

10 beyond tomorrow, we'll have to make arrangements.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you. I'm sure of that and I appreciate

12 that, Magistrate.

13 My next question is, Mr. Lazarevic, is how long do you anticipate

14 your cross-examination to last?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, I don't think I will be able to

16 complete my cross-examination today. I believe I will have to stick to my

17 estimation, my previous estimation of time.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And your estimation was one hour and a half?

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, that's true.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's start. So tomorrow we will

21 need roughly one hour or so.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We were discussing whether it was at all possible to

24 proceed beyond quarter to 2.00, but it seems that logistically that will

25 be difficult because another -- another trial needs to start at quarter

Page 14852

1 past 2.00 and they have one witness that they need to finish today. So --

2 yes, Mr. Josse.

3 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't want to confuse matters but I

4 think what the learned Magistrate said, that it doesn't prove a difficulty

5 tomorrow and it's been transcribed wrongly. I think that's what he said,

6 and unfortunately, our transcript says the complete opposite. Your Honour

7 might want to confirm with the learned Magistrate.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Josse. I have the same

9 impression. I didn't compare what I heard with what the transcript says,

10 but I just heard that Magistrate (redacted) saying that he needs to know so

11 that they make the necessary arrangements in any case.

12 Is that correct, Magistrate?

13 MAGISTRATE (redacted): Mr. President, tomorrow poses no difficulty

14 whatsoever.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 MAGISTRATE (redacted): It only poses a difficulty if it goes beyond

17 the six hours we've set aside tomorrow.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. That's very clear. Thank you.

19 And we won't need all the time that has been allotted in any case, there

20 being no further cross-examinations except for the Borovcanin Defence

21 team.

22 Mr. Lazarevic, please go ahead with your cross-examination, and

23 could you introduce yourself to the witness and to Magistrate (redacted),

24 please. Thank you.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: By all means.