1 Thursday, 6 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar, and good morning,
7 Could you kindly call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin
10 Popovic et al.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.
12 For the record, all the accused are here. From amongst the
13 Defence teams, I only notice the absence of Mr. Haynes and Ms. Condon.
14 The Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey -- and also Mr. Meek. The Prosecution is
15 Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer. That's it.
16 Witness and Magistrate and Legal Assistant and Registrar, Madam
17 Registrar, I welcome you back. We shall continue now with the testimony.
18 Witness, may I just remind you of two things before you start.
19 First is that you are still testifying pursuant to your solemn declaration
20 of yesterday, and second is you are reminded of your rights against
21 self-incrimination that I explained to you yesterday.
22 Having said that, I will now leave you in the hands of
23 Mr. Lazarevic.
24 Mr. Lazarevic.
25 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-100 [Resumed]
1 [The witness testified via videolink]
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good morning, Your Honour.
3 Good morning to the witness and to His Honour, the Magistrate.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]
5 Q. Witness, could you just confirm for me because I haven't heard
6 your voice yet this morning, I am not sure I am receiving the signal from
7 (redacted), and I am on the right channel. Can you just confirm you can
8 hear me?
9 A. Yes, I can hear you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Please try to be careful, being careful even in
11 avoiding certain courtesy.
12 Mr. Lazarevic, we will redact that.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I became aware of it the moment I it, but,
14 unfortunately, it was too late.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry, it happens.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC:
17 Q. Sir, I would like to continue where we left off yesterday, and I
18 would like to pick up just one detail I noticed on the record.
19 Speaking on page 21 of yesterday's transcript --
20 MR. THAYER: We are not getting the translation of the questions
21 by Mr. Lazarevic.
22 [Technical Difficulty]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We will check that immediately.
24 We have a technical problem, Witness. The reporter is not
25 receiving translation of Mr. Lazarevic's words.
1 Mr. Lazarevic, can I ask you to say something again in your own
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Witness, can you hear me loud and
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you. It seems we have resolved this little
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Proceed, please.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir, since there was no interpretation, I'll have to ask the same
11 question again. We are now talking about the event when you left the
12 Jahorina Centre to Srebrenica; and speaking of page 21, line 1 of
13 yesterday's transcript, you said that you had been informed you were going
14 to Potocari.
15 You will agree with me that, actually, when you left Mount
16 Jahorina, nobody told you specifically you are going to Potocari. They
17 actually told you, you were heading for the area of Srebrenica; is that
19 A. That probably would be right, yes.
20 Q. That's what I assumed. I just wanted to clear up that detail.
21 Also in yesterday's evidence, page 21, lines 3 to 5, you said that
22 before leaving for Srebrenica, you and your colleagues from the Jahorina
23 Centre were addressed by somebody higher than Jevic. Do you remember that
24 part of your testimony?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. As I was looking at the statement you gave to the Prosecution -
2 that's 7D00645, for the record - on page 6 in the B/C/S version, I found -
3 and it's page 6 in English as well - you said that the person who
4 addressed you at that time was the commander of all special units. Do you
5 recall saying that?
6 A. Not -- to be quite honest with you, no, but I'm sure that it was a
7 higher rank than Mr. Jevic.
8 Q. Perhaps I can refresh your memory by quoting that passage from
9 your statement. It's page 6: "A man who was introduced to us as the
10 commander of all special police forces of Republika Srpska addressed a
11 speech to us. I saw him for the first and the last time."
12 Does this help you recall this part of your statement?
13 A. Yes. I can see it on my statement.
14 Q. Is that how it happened?
15 A. To be quite honest with you, the officer was introduced to us as
16 the highest-ranking officer; and, at this stage, I cannot recall what was
17 his full rank, but he was definitely, by the looking of Mr. Jevic, how he
18 was addressing the gentleman, that he was addressing, that gentleman was a
19 higher-ranking officer than Mr. Jevic, yes.
20 Q. Would there be any reason for you to change this part of this
21 statement at this moment and to say that he was not actually the commander
22 of all special police forces? Would you change this part of your
24 A. In which sense?
25 Q. In the sense that you would no longer testify that that man was
1 the commander of all special police forces.
2 A. Since I cannot properly remember at this stage, I wouldn't like to
3 change it.
4 Q. Very well. Just one more question with regard to this gentleman.
5 To the best of your recollection, could you please describe him, that man
6 who is the commander of all special units, how old he was, his build, the
7 colour of his hair, his face, anything?
8 A. To be quite honest with you, I cannot recollect the image of the
9 gentleman because it was a brief visit. It was really in a short period
10 of time, and we have had been still in a shock in the past happening. And
11 we just -- I just could not recall that gentleman.
12 Q. All right. Of course, I won't insist if you can't remember.
13 Before that gentleman addressed you, the commander of all special
14 units, and Jevic as well, had anyone at the centre ever mentioned the
15 possibility of your going to Srebrenica? In other words, before this, did
16 you know you were going to Srebrenica?
17 A. No.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you.
19 [In English] Your Honours, I heard the witness saying "no" very --
20 oh, now it's okay.
21 Q. [Interpretation] When you testified yesterday on page 21, lines 18
22 and 19 of the transcript, you said you had all assembled, boarded the
23 buses, and left. Do you recall that part of your testimony?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Nevertheless, in your statement given to the Office of the
1 Prosecutor - and that's on page 6 in B/C/S and page 7 of the English - you
2 stated to the Prosecution that (redacted)
4 And to refresh your memory, I will quote the passage to you: (redacted)
7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Lazarevic.
8 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
9 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I would just ask my friend to read the
10 next sentence from this portion.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: By all means, I believe that -- by all means.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Continued: (redacted)
18 I've just read this entire paragraph, but I'm only interested in
19 this first detail. (redacted)
24 Q. Thank you. And that day, in the afternoon, you arrived at
25 Bilalovac village, the Bratunac municipality. You put up at the
1 schoolhouse and continued the next day. Is that the gist of your
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So that night, when you were at the schoolhouse in Bilalovac
5 village, can you recall whether a certain member -- a certain number of
6 the members of your unit escaped, ran a wall across the Drina River?
7 A. I know that there has been few escapes, but did it happen the
8 first night? I cannot recall it at this stage. But there has been one or
9 two escapes, yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Generally speaking, would you agree with me that your
11 unit, that is, the Jahorina Centre Unit, was not well prepared or well
12 trained enough for any serious action?
13 A. I would agree with that, yes.
14 Q. And if I understood your evidence correctly, practically all
15 members of your unit were brought from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
16 to the Republika Srpska against their will.
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. Thank you. Let us now move on to the following day.
19 Sometime around 9.00 in the morning, you took the road from the
20 place we have discussed so far across the Yellow Bridge in the direction
21 of Potocari, and you said it took you two to three hours to reach
22 Potocari. So I conclude that you arrived approximately around noon. Is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes, I would say so.
25 Q. Could I take you back to the moment when you were leaving from
1 Zuti Most, the Yellow Bridge. Speaking about that yesterday, you
2 mentioned there was a Dutch check-point there. Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. We have heard a lot of evidence about these events; and just to
5 familiarise you a bit, we used to refer to this point as the Dutch
6 observation point "Papa." So when I say "Papa," I will refer to the Dutch
7 observation post near the Yellow Bridge. Do you understand that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. On your way to Potocari, you passed by the Observation Post Papa;
10 is that correct?
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 Q. Passing by that observation post, did there occur any hostilities
13 between your unit and the Dutch soldiers manning that post? Did you open
14 fire at them? Did they open fire at you? Was there any exchange of
15 threats? Any kind of hostility whatsoever?
16 A. Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. Would I be right in assuming that had there occurred any shooting
18 at the Dutch observation post, or had they shot at you, that would
19 certainly be something you would remember?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, moving on, your unit reached the Dutch base,
22 where you saw Dutch troops. The Dutch soldiers that you saw, can you
23 confirm that some of them were in full combat gear; whereas, others were
24 wearing shorts and T-shirts only?
25 A. Yes, that would be correct.
1 Q. As your unit wasn't sufficiently well trained, straightaway upon
2 your arrival in Potocari, you scattered around the area, and it was only
3 after a certain amount of time had gone by that you succeeded in rallying
4 your ranks again and deploy; is that what happened? Is that how it was?
5 A. Can you just clarify that question for me, please?
6 Q. Yes, of course. On page 7 of your statement, it's 7 in the B/C/S
7 and also 7 in the English version. Speaking about these events, you said
8 the following: "We were not a well-trained group, and we scattered around
9 as soon as we arrived."
10 Do you stand by that statement, as you gave it to the OTP?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Thank you. (redacted)
13 (redacted) And you said more
14 or less that you did nothing special, but I'd like to ask you about one
15 detail there.
16 You had communication with members of the Dutch Battalion. Did
17 you talk to those soldiers? Did you socialise a little with them that
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And one more thing for the record, so that we can have that
21 clarified. From that place where you were then -- or rather, let me put
22 it this way: From the place you were, you couldn't see the asphalt road
23 passing by the base, could you?
24 A. It was in distance. It was not in a close vicinity, but I could
25 see -- I could not see it, virtually, but I could see the vehicles in
2 Q. Very well. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions now in
3 relation to the members of the Dutch Battalion over there. Did anybody
4 order you to disarm the members of the Dutch Battalion?
5 A. Not to me, no.
6 Q. I assume that you didn't do that at your own initiative, I mean,
7 you or members of your unit, your colleagues from Jahorina.
8 A. They were told to us, but, sir, I can only speak on my behalf and
9 the events that happened to me and what orders, if any, I've been given.
10 I cannot speak for anybody else.
11 Q. Yes. I understand that, but you didn't hear any order given that
12 the members of the Dutch Battalion should be disarmed, did you?
13 A. No, not me [Realtime transcript read in error "to me"].
14 Q. Did you --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. One moment, because the last line of
16 the transcript may be misleading.
17 I distinctly heard the witness say, "No, not me," but the
18 transcript says, "No, not to me." At this point, particularly, the
19 obvious reason why the question was put by Mr. Lazarevic, I think we need
20 to correct that, but I stand to be corrected by the witness if I am not
21 right, if I am not correct.
22 The question to you was whether you heard any order given, not
23 necessarily to you, but maybe to others that the members of the Dutch
24 Battalion should be disarmed. Did you hear any such order?
25 THE WITNESS: No, I haven't.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. Now, my next question is
4 this: Did you, by threat of weapons or in any other way, prevent the
5 members of the Dutch Battalion from leaving the base?
6 A. No, I haven't.
7 Q. Did you perhaps have any such order to prevent them from leaving
8 the base?
9 A. Not to my best recollection, no.
10 Q. Thank you very much. And just one more question with respect to
11 this: Did you personally have an order to separate the military-able men,
12 Muslims, from their families in Potocari?
13 A. As I said yesterday, no, I haven't, and I haven't seen any of
15 Q. Thank you very much. According to your testimony, you remained in
16 Potocari roughly up until 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening. Is that right?
17 A. To my best recollection, yes.
18 Q. Speaking before this Tribunal yesterday - and that is on page 37
19 of the transcript, lines 18 and 19 - you said that you think that you were
20 in Potocari on the 13th of July, or rather, that it could have been
21 between the 13th and 15th of July. Do you remember having said that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And further on, on that same page of the transcript, you said that
24 you, in fact, believe that you left Jahorina on the 13th of July and that
25 you arrived in Potocari, in fact, on the 14th of July. That's on the same
1 page of the transcript. Do you remember having said that, that part of
2 your testimony?
3 A. Yes, I do, and I did say as well that I'm not sure about the date.
4 Q. Yes, that's how I understood it, too. Now, before this Court, we
5 had an occasion to -- we have had occasion to hear many testimonies and to
6 see many documents, from which we can see that the evacuation of civilians
7 from Potocari lasted for two days, that is to say, on the 12th and 13th of
8 July, and that it was completed only on the 13th of July in the afternoon.
9 I'd like now to go through your statement again and try to
10 determine the time, where you were exactly, during those two days. On
11 page 8 - and that is the Prosecution statement that I'm referring to now.
12 It is 8 in the B/C/S version and 9 of the English version - you say that
13 on that day when you were in Potocari, you assumed that all the people had
14 been evacuated because you did not notice a single refugee when you were
15 moving around, nor did you hear anything unusual. Do you remember that
16 part of your testimony?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And do you confirm that that is correct; right?
19 A. To my best knowledge, yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Lazarevic.
21 Mr. Thayer.
22 MR. THAYER: If we could just have some clarification about the
23 time of the day, and I think that is in that part of the statement, and
24 that just might help with where exactly we're talking about.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
1 Mr. Lazarevic.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Then I will read the whole paragraph
3 just for my colleague.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Go ahead.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] "I left Potocari between 2100
6 hours and 2200 hours. We all gathered in front of the compound, where we
7 stayed for about half an hour, and then left the area by bus. I assumed
8 that all the people had been evacuated because I did not see any refugee,
9 nor did I hear anything special."
10 [In English] Does this satisfy my colleague's inquiry?
11 MR. THAYER: It does. Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Sir, we've just read out that entire paragraph. I certainly did
15 not wish to disorient you in any way by just showing you a portion of
16 that. It speaks for itself, but my question to you is the following: Had
17 it happened that in Potocari, at that point in time when you set out, had
18 there been ten or more thousand refugees, you would certainly have had to
19 have noticed that; right?
20 A. In that vicinity, yes.
21 Q. Precisely. And would you agree with me when I say that on that
22 day, regardless, of course, of the date that that was, when in the evening
23 hours you left Potocari, that the evacuation of the population had already
24 been completed?
25 A. From that point, yes.
1 Q. A large number of exhibits have been presented before this
2 Tribunal, showing that the evacuation of the civilians had been completed
3 by the 13th of July. Now, would you agree with me, then, that the date of
4 your stay in Potocari could have been precisely that day, the 13th of
5 July, when the evacuation was over?
6 A. It might be, but my belief is we went in --
7 Q. Very well. That's fine. We won't pursue the point.
8 Testifying yesterday before this Tribunal, you spoke about the
9 White House, Bila Kuca; and looking at the transcript carefully, I noticed
10 that this "Bila Kuca" was written in inverted commas, and it's page 40,
11 line 1 to 2. Where did you get this term "White House" when you asked
12 about the house you saw? How did you come to term it that way?
13 A. A photo has been shown to me when I had been giving the statement
14 about the house, and I did recognise the house in a photo.
15 Q. Were you told at the time that it was the White House?
16 A. To my recollection, the house was in white colour, so it's normal
17 to be a white house.
18 Q. Yes, but there are many houses that are white. Why did you select
19 this term, personally, "The White House"? You could have just said it's
20 that house. Why did you term it that way, "the White House"?
21 A. I did confirm that the house that I did mention in my testimony is
22 the house that I have seen. I don't recall coming to the term, but the
23 house is the house.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Witness, and one moment, Mr. Lazarevic.
1 Mr. Thayer.
2 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I really don't want to continue to
3 intervene, but I notice that at page 14, line 7 - and I didn't want to
4 interrupt this discussion about the White House; I wanted to let that
5 finish - it appears that the witness, from the transcript, didn't finish
6 his answer. I believe I did hear an answer. I obviously don't want to
7 say what I thought I heard, but I would ask if the witness could complete
8 the answer or if he had more to say to that question.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me check with you. Line 7 is our line 7. What
10 do you have in your line 7?
11 MR. THAYER: Just pardon me. It just scrolled up. I need to
12 freeze it for a second.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, because I believe you're referring to line 3
14 and not line 7.
15 MR. THAYER: In our transcript, the previous question was: "Now,
16 would you agree with me, then, that the date of your stay in Potocari
17 could be precisely that day, the 13th of July, when the evacuation was
19 The answer is: "It might be, but my belief is we went in --"
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And so we're speaking of page 14, line 3 and not
21 line 7.
22 Witness, I don't know if you have been following. You were asked
23 the following question by Mr. Lazarevic: "A large number of exhibits have
24 been presented before this Tribunal, showing that the evacuation of the
25 civilians had been completed by the 13th of July. Now, would you agree
1 with me, then, that the date of your stay in Potocari could have been
2 precisely that day, the 13th of July, when the evacuation was over?"
3 Now, according to our transcript, we have an unfinished sentence.
4 I did hear you complete it, but it doesn't show in the transcript.
5 You said: "It might be, but my belief is that we went in --"
6 Could you complete that sentence, please?
7 THE WITNESS: That we went in first. I meant that we were the
8 first unit that actually came into the area of the Dutch compound.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, sir.
10 Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
11 Mr. Lazarevic, you may proceed.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, after that digression, let's go back to
14 the subject of the White House, if that's no problem.
15 As far as I understood it yesterday, understood your testimony
16 yesterday, my colleague Mr. Thayer asked you where, in relation to the
17 base, the United Nations base, was that White House. And your answer was
18 that as far as you remember, it was on the other side of the road. Do you
19 remember saying that yesterday?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. And let's just clarify the answer you gave to Mr. Thayer. Was it
22 a house that was immediately across from the UNPROFOR base, the entrance
23 to the UNPROFOR base on the other side of the road?
24 A. I can't remember.
25 Q. Let's try and help you with that. In the statement you gave to
1 the investigators of the Prosecution, and this is to be found on page 8 of
2 the B/C/S and also on page 8 of the English text, you say the following:
3 "I came across Jevic. He was standing in front of the house
4 which was directly across the entrance to the base."
5 Does that refresh your memory, that it was directly opposite the
6 entrance to the base?
7 A. Yes, it does.
8 Q. And that's correct, is it, what I've just quoted?
9 A. To my best knowledge, yes.
10 Q. Thank you. As we've cleared that up now, let's move on.
11 The next day, you were free. You spent your time in the school in
12 Bilalovac. And in the afternoon, you were deployed along the road between
13 Kravica and Konjevic Polje, that communication line; is that right?
14 A. That is correct, yes.
15 Q. And on that road, to the best of your recollections, you stayed
16 for four or five days; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I'd like now -- we're talking about that first day which you spent
19 on the road. Well, yesterday you testified about the fact that on that
20 day, (redacted)
20 Q. Fine. I don't see any difference in substance, and please believe
21 me that it wasn't my intention to say that you agreed with me about
22 something that you did not think the same way as I did. But from this
23 answer, too, I can conclude that (redacted)
23 Q. In the deposition you gave in your country of residence, I found,
24 on page 22 in B/C/S and page 26 in English, that on the next day you found
25 out -- (redacted)
7 Q. Thank you. Can we just clear up now one more thing that remained
8 ambivalent in your testimony yesterday?
9 You already confirmed that on that road, you spent some four or
10 five days. Could you now just tell me, did you spend the nights on the
11 road as well or did you perhaps go to the schoolhouse to sleep in
12 Bilalovac or somewhere else?
13 A. We had been there 24 hours, day and night.
14 Q. Thank you. That's clear now. It wasn't quite clear from the
15 record yesterday.
21 Q. Thank you. From this answer, I conclude that you would probably
22 be unable to tell us his name, surname, date of birth, place of residence,
23 or any detail that could help identify him.
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. You testified yesterday that one of your colleagues from the
1 training centre at Jahorina, his colleague [Realtime transcript read in
2 error "a woman"] was wounded. Having reviewed the record, I believe some
3 things remained insufficiently clear, so can I take you back to this
5 I will lead you by my questions so that we can establish a time
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: There is one correction for the transcript. It's
8 on page 22, line 7. It says "a woman was wounded," and actually I said
9 his colleague was wounded.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you know also if his colleague was a man or a
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, I can make a wild guess that --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Let's correct that. I mean, that will be
14 corrected in due course, Mr. Lazarevic. Let's proceed, please. Thank
16 Let's proceed please. Thank you.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. Sir, let us try to establish a timeline. One Muslim fighter came
19 out, saying he wanted to surrender; is that correct?
20 A. That is correct, yes.
21 Q. As he was approaching your colleague from the Jahorina Training
22 Centre, instead of surrendering, that fighting man, or as you said, you
23 are not sure how to term him, threw a hand grenade at your colleague,
24 wounding him; after which, your colleague remained an invalid, remained
25 disabled; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. He did throw the grenade, and a colleague was wounded, and
2 we have heard later, when the ambulance took him, that he remained
3 severely disabled.
4 Q. Could you now remember, roughly, where on that road this incident
5 took place?
6 A. Roughly, (redacted) towards the
7 Konjevic Polje.
8 Q. Right. I suppose that if you were at a distance of 100 metres,
9 you were able to hear the explosion loud and clear.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. From your testimony yesterday, on page 55 of the
12 transcript, I understood that you heard about prisoners being liquidated
13 in Kravica several days after being placed on that road. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, during that five-day stay on the road, yes.
15 Q. Right. And this was second-hand information. You did not see
16 that personally. You were not there. You heard about it from other
17 members of your unit, didn't you?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. If you can recall, could you give us the name, surname, nickname,
20 place of residence of any member of your unit who might have told you
21 about this?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. On the way back, after your deployment on the road, you passed by
24 the warehouse in Kravica. You were able to see it, weren't you?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. I suppose that you also passed it on the way to the road to be
2 deployed. You could see it then as well, couldn't you?
3 A. Probably, yes, but I didn't pay attention to anything.
4 Q. All right. If I can just try to remind you of certain details,
5 because I suppose you were not paying attention to that in particular.
6 But in your statement given to the OTP, on page 12 in B/C/S, page 13 in
7 English, you said that you did not notice anything special about the
8 warehouse, and the traces that were visible were old and greyish. Does
9 that help you remember what you said?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that was the case. There was nothing on the facade of that
12 warehouse that would indicate that something unusual, out of the ordinary,
13 had happened inside. Is that correct?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Thank you. I have some questions related to your status in July
17 Have you ever received an official ID from the Ministry of the
18 Interior, the MUP, of Republika Srpska?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Nor did you receive the policeman's badge that is also a kind of
21 ID, did you?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Nor did you ever conclude a contract, an employment contract, with
24 the MUP of Republika Srpska?
25 A. No, sir.
1 Q. Nor did you receive any kind of written document, such as a
2 decision confirming that you were admitted into the police force of
3 Republika Srpska?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Just one more question on this topic before we look at a document.
6 In your military service book, was the time you spent in the
7 training centre in Jahorina entered? Maybe I should have asked you first
8 whether there were entries made at all in your service book, but could you
9 answer this one, please?
10 A. Can you please repeat the question?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer. I think you have the same concerns
6 that I have. Should we be in open session for this or should we be in
7 closed session, because I think this area of the witness's testimony was
8 covered in private session yesterday. Please check me out, but that's my
10 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Precisely, Mr. President. And you're probably on top
12 of this, but we have some redactions that I think we'll need to make in
13 the transcript already on this.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
15 And are you proceeding on this part of your questions or this area
16 of cross-examination or are you finished with it?
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honour, I just have a couple of
18 more questions in this respect, then I would ask to have our break a bit
19 earlier just to consult, then I will have additionally ten to 15 minutes,
20 and then that would conclude my examination.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 Mr. Thayer --
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: But I believe we should proceed in private
25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I was going to confirm. So let's go
1 into private session for a while, please, and someone will go through the
2 latter part of the transcript to establish what redactions need to be
4 [Private session]
11 Page 14893 redacted. Private session
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will take the break now, Mr. Lazarevic,
21 during which you can consult with your client. Twenty-five minutes.
22 We'll have the usual break for 25 minutes, please. Thank you.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you.
1 Mr. Lazarevic, have you consulted with your client?
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Yes, I did, Your Honour, and I will
3 have just five or ten minutes more.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Proceed, please.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. And before I proceed, I would like to draw
6 the attention of the Trial Chamber to page 2, line 2 of the transcript,
7 because there it says that today's witness is "PW-108," and it's actually
8 "PW-100." And I believe it should be corrected.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you for pointing that out.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I think it would be wise to move
11 into private session now.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Then let's do that. Let's move into private
13 session, please.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 14896-14898 redacted. Private session
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
10 MR. THAYER:
11 Q. Sir, do you recall receiving any information as to the location
12 where the 2nd Company, commanded by Mr. Nedzo Ikonjic was deployed during
13 the period time you were deployed on that road?
14 A. I believe that the rumour had it that they had been in the area of
15 Konjevic Polje.
16 Q. And to your recollection, sir, were there any members of the 2nd
17 Company under Mr. Ikonjic along the stretch of road where you were
19 A. I cannot recall that, no.
20 Q. Sir, earlier today you were asked by my learned friend about a
21 statement or a portion of your statement where you described being
22 dispersed or scattered in Potocari when you first arrived. Do you recall
23 that, sir?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Sir, I just want to refer -- well, do you recall whether you were
1 ever regrouped prior to being deployed?
2 A. Can you please rephrase that question?
3 Q. Certainly. You described being dispersed or scattered upon your
4 arrival at Potocari. Were you ever deployed in any particular fashion
5 around Potocari?
6 A. A few soldiers or a few Jahorina guys have been deployed in some
7 sort of military fashion around the compound, yes, and I was one of them
8 that has been dispersed around the compound, actually put on the position.
9 It was, I believe, about eight or nine of us.
10 Q. Now, sir, you were asked some questions about the dates on which
11 these events occurred. Do you recall being asked some questions about the
12 dates in your deposition?
13 A. I probably was asked the dates, yes.
14 Q. And do you recall, sitting here today, what your answers were?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. And do you recall what those -- can you tell the Trial Chamber
17 what your answers were?
18 A. Okay. My answer was: I believe it was either 12th or 13th of
19 July, maybe even 14th. I'm not sure, but my honest belief is that we are
20 the very first unit that actually has entered Potocari. If that date of
21 entry of Potocari is noted as the 12th, then I firmly believe it was the
22 12th of July.
23 Q. Okay, sir. I want to show you a document, and it is on e-court.
24 MR. THAYER: And I'll leave it up to our technical people to decide
25 whether it's better to show it on e-court or on the ELMO. It is a
1 hospital record for the Bratunac health facility, and the 65 ter number is
2 1892. It is page 26 of the document, the original B/C/S document. The
3 ERN is 0179-3916. This particular page has not been translated.
4 Thank you. If we could scroll down a little bit. Even a little
5 bit more, please. Thank you. Perfect. That's probably as big as we can
6 get without losing the text. Okay. Perfect. Thank you.
7 Q. Sir, do you see this document before you?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Okay. Just hang on a moment, and we'll see if we can get it to
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's --
12 THE WITNESS: Now I can see it, yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
14 MR. THAYER:
15 Q. Sir, I'm going to draw your attention to three entries at the
16 bottom of this page. They are numbered 1480, 1481, and 1482. Do you see
17 those entries all the way on the left-hand --
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. Okay. If you look -- if you look at the far left side of this
20 document, there's a column with numbers, and you should see "1480","1481,"
21 and "1482" running down.
22 A. No. All we can see is the dates.
23 MR. THAYER: Okay. Can we scroll to the right a little?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes. Now it's visible.
25 MR. THAYER: Okay. Perfect, sir.
1 Q. Now, do you see the column directly to the right of those numbers?
2 A. The column with the numbers?
3 Q. Yes. Do you see --
4 A. With the dates?
5 Q. Exactly, sir.
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Can you read the date and the time that's listed under each of
8 those dates for those three entries, please?
9 A. I believe the first one is the 12th of the 7th, 1995. The second
10 one --
11 MS. (redacted): Sorry. Would it be possible to focus a little bit
12 more on the document? Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: This is better.
14 MR. THAYER:
15 Q. And we're looking at entry 1480, 1481 and 1482, please.
16 A. Okay. The 14th of the 7, 1995, 4.30. Fourteenth of the 7, 1995,
17 4 -- it's blurry, the time. It would probably be 4.30. And the 14th of
18 the 7, 1995, 4.30.
19 Q. Okay. And when you say "14 of the 7, 1995", what do you mean --
20 how do you read that, sir, to mean?
21 A. The 14th of July.
22 Q. And when you say "4.30" when you look at the times, is that 4.30
23 in the morning or 4.30 in the afternoon?
24 A. I would say this is 4.30 in the morning.
25 Q. Okay. Now, moving again to your right, in the next column do you
1 see three sets of names? And if you do, would you please read them to
2 yourself - you don't need to read them aloud, and - and I ask you whether
3 you recognise any of those names.
4 A. I read the name, but I cannot recognise the names.
5 MR. THAYER: Okay. If we could scroll to the right a little bit,
7 Q. Sir, you'll see that the next column has three years, and then the
8 column after that has three, looks like, locations, and then I just want
9 you to read the third column, sir. Can you see what that entry is for the
10 top column or for the top?
11 A. "Special Brigade Police, Jahorina."
12 Q. And it's the same entry for the next two below it; is that
14 A. That is correct, yes.
15 Q. And then what does the next column say?
16 A. It's probably the place.
17 Q. Can you read that, sir?
18 A. Sandici.
19 Q. Now, can you scroll up, please, sir, just so we can see what the
20 heading of those two columns is. Can you read the Cyrillic there?
21 A. Can you focus a bit, please?
22 Q. So it would be the Cyrillic to the far left and the heading next
23 to that one.
24 A. Okay. The first one is "Unit," and the second one is the place of
25 injury or "Place of wounding," and the next one, "Diagnosis."
1 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I think everybody here would accept that Sandici
2 is in close proximity to Kravica. Having reviewed this medical log, which
3 indicates that these three Special Police Brigade from Jahorina members
4 were injured in the early morning hours of the 14th of the July, how does
5 that correspond with your recollection of the dates of these events?
6 A. In that case, if those dates are correct, then if we were -- on
7 that point in time, if that's the place where we were, then two days -- a
8 day or two days prior that we have been in Potocari, if that is the --
9 where are you going with the question?
10 Q. I think you've answered it about as much as we're going to try to
11 with you, sir. Thank you.
12 Now, sir, you were asked some questions about whether you had any
13 further information about (redacted)
1 Q. Okay. Well, the fact he was from (redacted) is something I think that
2 is new, in terms of what you've said to us here in this Tribunal in the
3 last day or so. Let me, if I could, just read a portion of your interview
4 with the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995. And this is at page 11 of the
5 English, and B/C/S, page 10.
6 There it's written: (redacted)
11 Do you remember whether you were -- whether you provided that
12 information to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. To the best of your recollection, is that information accurate?
15 A. Yes. To the best of my recollection, yes, it is.
16 Q. Now, I wanted to just ask you a question about the position of
17 (redacted). You said you couldn't remember what his real name was or whether,
18 in fact, you were told his real name. Do you remember what you told --
19 what you stated in your deposition as to what his actual position was or
20 whether he was a regular Special Police Brigade member or simply a recruit
21 like yourself? Do you remember what you said in the deposition about
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe that I said --
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I'm objecting now to this question.
1 I don't believe that this issue of the rank (redacted) was raised during my
2 cross-examination. I did deal with the fact that this person didn't have
3 much details about him. But about the rank, there was nothing that was
4 raised during cross-examination.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I do recall the witness
6 mentioning it earlier on today. Let me just ...
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, maybe I can assist Your Honours.
8 On yesterday's transcript, on page 52, this was the question posed
9 by my colleague, and I believe that the witness already gave his answer.
10 And I never asked anything about (redacted) rank or whether he belonged to
11 regular or special police force or a recruit from Jahorina.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, there was some cross-examination which
14 was obviously designed to illicit the witness's lack of knowledge about
15 any of these individuals, and I'm simply looking to see whether his
16 recollection can be refreshed to further identify who these people were.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's perfectly in order, so let's proceed
18 with the witness's answer to your question.
19 MR. THAYER:
20 Q. And for the record, sir, I'm going to refer you to page 12 of your
22 MR. THAYER: That's ERN 0149-9695. That's at the bottom of page 9
23 of the B/C/S.
24 Q. You were being asked about the structure of your units from
25 Jahorina, and the question was: "And to step up from this fellow recruit,
1 who was the next superior, for example, the company commander?"
2 And your answer was: "It would be the regular guy."
3 The next question: "And do you recall what his name was?"
4 And your answer was: (redacted)
5 When you say the next step up from a recruit like yourself would
6 be "the regular guy," what do you mean by "the regular guy," sir?
7 A. A member, a regular member of the police force or special police
9 Q. Okay, sir. My last question concerns and relates to the questions
10 you were asked about (redacted)
12 MR. THAYER: I think we'll need the assistance of Madam Usher,
13 because I don't think this document is in e-court, so we'll need to place
14 it on the ELMO. This is a photograph that has been disclosed to my
15 friends on February 4th, 2007. It is part of Dean Manning's report, ERN
16 0610-6454 to 0610-0647, disclosed 6 July of this year.
17 Q. Sir, it is the Prosecution's position and evidence that (redacted)
22 Can you see the photograph in front of you, sir?
23 A. Yes, I can.
24 Q. (redacted)
25 A. Can you please clarify that question?
1 Q. (redacted), sir, in the
2 photograph? I just don't know how clear it is for you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Witness, before you answer the
13 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honours, it is redirect, and the
15 Prosecution is first putting his case to the witness, then asking him to
16 confirm. I mean, this is really inappropriate.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We all are in agreement with you, Mr. Lazarevic.
18 You either move to something else, Mr. Thayer, or rephrase your question,
20 MR. THAYER:
3 MR. THAYER: Okay. Witness, I thank you, and I thank His Worship,
4 and I thank His Worship's staff for their cooperation.
5 I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Thayer.
7 Judge Kwon, do you have any questions? Judge Stole? Judge Prost?
8 No questions. Witness, that brings your testimony to an end. We don't
9 have any further questions for you.
10 Before we close this videolink testimony, however, I wish to thank
11 you on behalf of the Trial Chamber and the Tribunal for having given
12 evidence, and I also wish to thank you, Magistrate, and your legal officer
13 for attending during the testimony. And if you could also convey, on our
14 behalf, our gratitude to the authorities of your countries for helping in
15 organising this videolink and also the testimony of the witness.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you for that, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Have a good day.
18 THE WITNESS: Good evening.
19 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So that brings to the end the witness. Now we need
21 to proceed with the tendering of documents.
22 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, there's just one document that we have
23 to offer. Everything else has been already admitted. The one document is
24 the pseudonym sheet, P02878.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I won't even ask whether there is any
1 objections. That is so admitted, and it will remain under seal.
2 Mr. Lazarevic, do you wish to tender any documents?
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. We have two documents to offer. One is
4 4DP0001. It's the order of President Radovan Karadzic, dated 16 of June,
5 1995. And the other document is 4D00119. It's a report by the deputy
6 Minister of the Interior.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any objection on your part, Mr. Thayer?
8 MR. THAYER: No objection.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection by the other Defence teams?
10 There is no objection, so the two documents will be admitted, and
11 they will be given the proper identification number.
12 All right. We can now move to the next witness, which, as I
13 understand, is 108, who has come back for cross-examination.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, I am being informed that in order to be
16 able to proceed, because we have been on a videolink connection, they have
17 to make proper readjustments and that they require, at a minimum, about 20
18 minutes for that.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: What we suggest to do is we'll have a 20-minute
21 break now, and then we go straight to the end, with a ten-minute break
22 somewhere, when it becomes either more convenient to you or because of
23 technical reasons. All right.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 --- Recess taken at 11.34 a.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, sir, and welcome back. We are going
5 to proceed with your testimony now, and you are about to cross-examined by
6 Mr. Bourgon, who is appearing for the Accused Nikolic.
7 May I remind you of the two things I explained to you when you
8 started giving evidence the other day. One is that you are testifying
9 under oath, really, the solemn declaration that you made before you
10 started your testimony. That still applies, holds good. The second is
11 the explanation that I gave you in relation to your right to ask to be
12 exempted from answering some questions, if you feel they are
13 incriminating, incriminatory.
14 All right. Mr. Bourgon.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-108 [Resumed]
16 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Before I begin, I would like to know, do we have to stop or can we
18 until a quarter to?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I think, at this point, having started at a
20 minute or two after 12:00, I think it would be possible to continue right
21 to the end.
22 MR. BOURGON: Thank you. That's what I would prefer, but I just
23 want to know in terms to pace myself with the questions.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: In any case, if you need a break, you only have to
25 tell us.
1 MR. BOURGON: I don't think I will need a break.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:
4 Q. Good morning, Witness.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. I have quite a bit of questions for you this morning. I will hope
7 to conclude -- I will try to conclude today, my cross-examination. If
8 that is not possible, then I guess we will have to continue tomorrow
10 Before I begin with any substantive questions related to your
11 testimony, I would like to confirm, basically, the general outline of your
12 testimony, which will help me to limit my cross-examination.
13 So correct me if I'm wrong, but in your testimony, you answered
14 questions in respect of three events, and I will go basically over those
15 three events.
16 So the first event you testified about is a visit you allegedly
17 made to the Zvornik Brigade Command with your friend, sometime in July of
18 1995, so that's the first event you testified about. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Of course, this is not the only time you went to Zvornik Brigade
21 Command between the period, let's say, from 1992 to 1996; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that was not your first visit, either, to the Zvornik Brigade
24 Command; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Just to clarify, you mean by "yes" that it was not your first
2 visit? That's my understanding. Correct?
3 A. At that time, it was the first visit. The next one was the one I
4 made together with my friend.
5 Q. Okay. Maybe I was not clear enough. I'm just talking about going
6 to Zvornik Brigade Command itself. That visit that you testified about
7 was not the first time that you went to the Zvornik Brigade Command; is
8 that correct?
9 A. That was the first time I went to the Command with that friend.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, the second event --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MR. BOURGON:
13 Q. The second event that you spoke about during your testimony would
14 be an alleged second visit to the Zvornik Brigade Command one month later;
15 is that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And, thirdly, the other event you spoke about would be an occasion
18 when you met your friend at his house socially several months later, when
19 he spoke to you about a cut-off head he saw near a school; is that
21 A. That was in the place where I worked that we socialised, and he
22 observed what I described to you (redacted)
23 Q. Thank you. That clarifies things, because I --
3 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
5 MR. BOURGON: Shall we redact this part?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we need to redact part of line 15 and then
7 whatever I said from 17 to 21.
8 Go ahead.
9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you.
10 Q. So, Witness, let's go back and simply say that those -- all I want
11 to is clarify with you those three events. So the first one is the
12 alleged visit when you went with your friend to Z Brigade Command, the
13 second one is another Z Brigade Command 30 days later, and the third is a
14 visit where the place where you worked, and that was several months later;
15 is that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Now, I'd like to quickly just confirm the general outline of that
18 first visit to the Zvornik Brigade Command. So correct me if I'm wrong,
19 but my understanding is your friend arrived to your location in the
20 morning. He invited you to go to Zvornik Brigade Command. You went
21 there. You had an event that took place at the Z Brigade Command. You
22 returned to your location, and then your friend left for Belgrade. Is
23 that the general outline of that first alleged visit?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. My next question has to do with your knowledge of Commander
1 Pandurevic, because he was the one that you were going to see. Is that
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. So you knew Commander Pandurevic; is that right?
5 A. I knew him.
6 Q. And you also met him before?
7 A. I did not. I just knew of him.
8 Q. Thank you. And you knew that Commander Pandurevic had been
9 commander of the Zvornik Brigade for approximately -- well, for over two
10 years; right?
11 A. I am not sure, but I knew that he was the commander.
12 Q. And it is my understanding that your friend also knew Commander
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And would it be correct in saying that your friend had met with
16 Mr. Pandurevic before?
17 A. I'm not sure, but it's possible.
18 Q. And would you agree with me that Commander Pandurevic --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.
20 MR. BOURGON: Sorry.
21 Q. And, sorry, and would you agree with me, sir, that Commander
22 Pandurevic was pretty well in control of the Zvornik Brigade in 1995? He
23 was exercising effective control over that brigade?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone.
25 A. I think so.
1 MR. BOURGON:
2 Q. And the point I'm really trying to get at here, sir, is that from
3 your point of view, and I'm not going to say what your work was because
4 we're in public session, but from your professional point of view, would
5 you agree with me that when Commander Pandurevic took over Zvornik
6 Brigade, things changed for the better in the Zvornik area? Is that
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic, for assisting.
9 A. I cannot say with absolute certainty either way because I wasn't
10 aware how things were unfolding, so I can't say.
11 MR. BOURGON:
12 Q. And if I think about Mr. Obrenovic, you would agree with me that
13 you knew Mr. Obrenovic before that visit in 1995; is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And would you agree with me that you also met with Mr. Obrenovic
16 on a number of occasions between 1992 and 1995?
17 A. Possibly, but only in the area where I worked. It was socialising
18 between us as private persons.
19 Q. But you knew him much more than you knew Commander Pandurevic; is
20 that correct?
21 A. A little better.
22 Q. And if we look at your friend, your friend also knew
23 Mr. Obrenovic; is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And I would also say that your friend knew Mr. Obrenovic from
1 1992. Is that correct?
2 A. Possibly.
3 Q. And your friend had a number of meetings with Mr. Obrenovic; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Possibly.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Yes, Mr. Thayer.
7 MR. THAYER: Just date/year range would be helpful, I think.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it he's still referring to between 1992 and
9 1995. That's how I understand the question.
10 MR. BOURGON: Exactly, Mr. President. I was referring to the
11 period between 1992 and 1995.
12 Q. So, Witness, just to clarify things concerning that last question,
13 the question was whether your friend had a number of meetings with
14 Mr. Obrenovic during the period from 1992 to 1995, and your answer
15 was, "Possibly." Is that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Now, "possibly" is kind of a, I would say, not -- I'd like you to
18 be a bit more precise, because I'm saying a number of meetings, and you
19 say, "Possibly." So they had a number of meetings. How many meetings did
20 they have during that period?
21 A. I cannot say precisely, considering that I was not there when they
22 met. I can only assume that they met.
23 Q. But you knew that they did meet at times when you were not there?
24 A. Possibly.
25 Q. Thank you. I move on to a different topic, and that is -- now
1 we're still in the very general questions before I get into the events
2 themselves, but I'd like to go over your knowledge of Mr. Drago Nikolic.
3 And I'll just refer to what you said in your testimony, whether you can
5 First of all, that you knew Drago Nikolic before this visit to the
6 Zvornik Brigade Command, is that correct?
7 A. I knew him by sight, but I wasn't there.
8 Q. That was my next question, Witness, so that's pretty good, because
9 you testified, in fact, that you knew him by sight, and that was on page
10 759 of the transcripts at line 10 to 11, and when I say -- would you agree
11 with me that you maybe had seen him two or three times at the most; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Well, when I was there with my friend, I was with him then, and
14 maybe I ran across him in passing, once perhaps, but we didn't socialise.
15 Q. Thank you. So I understand from your answer that before this
16 alleged meeting in 1995, you saw him in passing once. Is that your
18 A. Possibly.
19 Q. So I take it, then, that you had never spoken to Drago Nikolic or
20 had a meeting with him. Is that correct?
21 A. Correct, I had not.
22 Q. And I take it that you, as just said yourself, that you did not
23 socialise. My next point is: What about your friend? I take it that he
24 did not know Mr. Nikolic before. Is that correct?
25 A. I cannot say either way because I don't know.
1 Q. So you have no recollection whether your friend had ever seen
2 Mr. Drago Nikolic before, or is it that he had never seen him?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. And given that you had seen Mr. Nikolic just one time in passing
5 before, you don't really know if Mr. Nikolic knew you; is that correct?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. And that's exactly my point. He might have known you, maybe, as a
8 public figure because of your position, but you don't know whether he knew
9 you; is that correct?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Now, you said in your testimony, at page 761, that you knew that
12 Drago Nikolic was affiliated to the Intelligence Service, and that was
13 before the alleged visit; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you said, on page 760, that this was a notorious fact in
16 Zvornik. Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean by "a notorious
17 fact in Zvornik" that Mr. Nikolic was affiliated to the Intelligence
19 A. Well, I suppose everybody at the Command knew what kind of work
20 Mr. Nikolic was doing; and from the comments of those who worked at the
21 Command, this knowledge spread.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, you testified also, on line 24 of the same page,
23 that you "cannot remember the person who told me that," and then you
24 stated that, "I learned from other people at the barracks." Page 759,
25 lines 13-14. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So what did the people tell you at the barracks?
3 A. It's not at the barracks. It's outside the barracks where I
4 worked. People spoke about the fact that Mr. Nikolic was working for that
6 Q. And when was that?
7 A. Well, I don't remember. It was a long time ago, too long a time
8 for me to remember.
9 Q. Is it too long a time for you to remember who is it in the
10 barracks that shared that information with you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you cannot share with us today the name of anyone from the
13 barracks that you would have met who told you that Mr. Nikolic was
14 affiliated to the Intelligence Service; is that your testimony today?
15 A. I can't recall.
16 Q. I'll move on to -- I've got two more general issues, and then
17 we'll get to more substantive questions.
18 You testified on page 751, lines 1 to 10, yesterday, when you
19 described that first alleged visit. The only thing I'd like to confirm at
20 this time - we will get into the details later - is that when your friend
21 came to see you at your location, he said that -- maybe I should read it
22 just to avoid any misunderstanding.
23 On page 751, I will read what you said yesterday, and that is
24 exactly at line -- first, let's take the question: "If you can remember
25 what, if any, he said about what he was worried about."
1 And your answer was: "My friend said that he was worried and that
2 something was happening across over there."
3 And just to make it clear, to avoid any objection from my
4 colleague, at line 10 you said: "He said that something bad was
6 Do you recall testifying to that effect?
7 A. I think that's what I said.
8 Q. And I take it that before going to Zvornik Brigade, you did not
9 have any further details as to what is it that your friend was referring
10 to when he mentioned bad things happening; is that correct?
11 A. I did not.
12 Q. I have one last general question before I move to your background,
13 and that is something you mentioned yesterday. And, again, I will quote
14 from the transcript on page 765, and that is the part where you were asked
15 by my colleague whether on the trip back from Zvornik Brigade Command to
16 Mali Zvornik, your friend was able to provide you with any more detail
17 about where these bad things were happening on the basis of that meeting
18 he allegedly had. "Allegedly" is added by me.
19 Your answer was, and I quote on page 765, line 25, and 766, lines
20 1 to 2: "He just mentioned several schools where prisoners were being
21 kept, but he did not say exactly what was going on at those schools."
22 I stop here for now because the name of the school is something
23 we'll look at later.
24 Do you remember testifying to that effect two days ago?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. What I will do at this point, sir, is I will first have a
2 few questions which relate to your background, and we'll go into private
3 session for that, then I'll move on with some questions with your
4 relationship with the Prosecution over the years, and then we'll go into
5 the alleged visit, itself, just so that you know where I'm going with my
7 Mr. President, if we can go into private session, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a short while,
10 [Private session]
11 Page 14923 redacted. Private session
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Bourgon.
13 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Looking at your relationship or your dealings with the Office of
15 the Prosecution of this Tribunal over the years, it is my understanding,
16 sir, that the first time you met with the Prosecution, it had nothing to
17 do with the events which unfolded in 1995. Would you agree?
18 A. I would agree.
19 Q. Now, I don't know if you know the exact date, but I simply suggest
20 to you -- I have an info report which was drafted by the Office of the
21 Prosecution, which dates back to the 27th November 2002. Do you recall
22 meeting with the Prosecution at that time?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. And on that occasion, the object of this meeting was to discuss
25 the events which unfolded in the area of Zvornik in the period in 1992; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, I had the opportunity to read this information report, and my
4 understanding of it, if I can summarise or try to summarise in one
5 sentence and see if you will agree, you told the Prosecution that you were
6 aware of what happened in Zvornik in 1992, but that you were not involved
7 in those events. Would that be a fair summarisation of what you told the
8 Prosecution when you met with them in 2002?
9 A. I said that what was generally known and what I could hear from
10 the information media, well, that's what I confirm. What everybody knew,
11 that's what I knew, too.
12 Q. And so beyond what the people knew about the events of 1992, you
13 did not have any direct involvement into those events; is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And the next time you met with the Prosecution, based on the
16 information I have, would be on 21 July 2006 in -- at your location.
17 Would that be correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Now, you recall this interview, which I had the opportunity to
20 read, and maybe we -- we'll go over that interview today. I'm not sure
21 yet. But my understanding is that when you had this interview, someone
22 contacted you before to make an appointment. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. And can you share with us today who is it that contacted you and
1 A. The people who contacted me, I think, were the representatives of
2 the Tribunal and the interpreter. He had my number, and he made an
3 appointment, but I can't remember who the person was.
4 Q. And how much time was it before the actual interview that you were
5 contacted by the persons you mentioned?
6 A. Well, I think it might have been a few days, up to a month. I'm
7 not quite sure.
8 Q. And did they tell you what they wanted to discuss with you during
9 this interview and why they were contacting you, yourself? Because you
10 had spoken to them before, so what did they tell you this interview would
11 be about?
12 A. They didn't say, but I accepted to talk to them.
13 Q. Is it your testimony today that when they met with you, they never
14 mentioned your friend, or did they mention your friend when they called
16 A. They didn't.
17 Q. And I take it that you must have asked them, "Why is it that you
18 want to speak to me?" Did you say that, or did you just accept blindly
19 any invitation by people from this Tribunal?
20 A. I accepted because I considered it to be my civic duty, and I
21 didn't lay down any conditions, nor did I ask any questions.
22 Q. I take it that the next time you met with the Prosecution was not
23 until the 14th of June of this year, when you came for the first time to
24 testify in this case. Do you recall coming here on the 14th of June of
25 this year?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, you were supposed to testify at that moment, and you did not
3 because of a request from the Defence, because we needed more time to
4 investigate and also because we had just received a lot of information,
5 additional information, by the Prosecution which concerned you. Were you
6 informed of this?
7 A. They informed me, with respect to the Defence, that my testimony
8 had been postponed.
9 Q. And did they inform you that they had provided information to the
10 Defence which related to you and that is why we had requested the delay?
11 Did they say that to you?
12 A. Well, I don't remember exactly what was said, specifically, but I
13 think they informed me that the Defence had requested a postponement of my
15 Q. Thank you for this answer. On this occasion, sir, I take it that
16 you did have the opportunity to read your interview - that's the interview
17 of 21 July 2006 - and that you had the opportunity to read this interview
18 in your own language. Is that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And when you read this -- having read this interview, I take it
21 that, from the information I have, that you did some minor corrections;
22 for example, maybe you recall saying something about the apartment of
23 Commander Pandurevic. Do you recall this?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you also said, because I have the information here with me,
1 according to the notes I've received from the Prosecution, you would have
2 said that -- you were asked, actually, whether you recall the exact title
3 of Drago Nikolic in the summer of 1995. And you stated that you did not
4 know the exact title, but that you knew he was in Intelligence. Do you
5 remember saying this?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So other than this -- the information you provided to the
8 Prosecution on that day, that is to say, that your interview, you had an
9 opportunity to read it and you answered a couple of questions, I take it
10 that there was nothing knew that came out of this meeting. Is that
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And the next time you came to the Tribunal, again you were
14 supposed to testify, and my understanding is that this time it was around
15 mid-July 2007. Is that correct?
16 A. Possible.
17 Q. All I'm trying to confirm at this point, sir, is whether you did
18 come to The Hague, in July, another time before this week.
19 A. I came just once and now again.
20 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to confirm this, because initially you
21 were scheduled to testify, I think, around mid-July, and it was postponed.
22 Were you informed of this?
23 A. When I was here that time and I was supposed to testify, the
24 Prosecution informed me that the Defence had requested that I don't
25 testify. So I went back to my place of residence, and now I've come back
2 Q. Thank you. That clarifies things. Now, in the middle, did you
3 make any travel arrangements at any point to testify again that would have
4 been cancelled?
5 A. Well, I don't remember that. I don't actually understand the
7 Q. Okay. I'll try to make it as simple as possible.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, Mr. Bourgon.
9 Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: I think we know why the question was a little
11 confusing, given how these arrangements are made. I mean, we can provide
12 clarification for that kind of information, if my friend really wants it.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon. If this issue --
14 MR. BOURGON: My point, Mr. President, is for him, whether he
15 knows. That's what's important to me, whether he knew that there was
16 another scheduling for his testimony.
17 Q. Sir, I'll try to explain that to you in very simple terms. You
18 said that you came here once and it was postponed and you returned home,
19 and you said that you came this week and now you are testifying. In
20 between the two, were you informed that you were supposed to come to The
21 Hague to testify?
22 A. Well, when I returned, while I was returning, I was told that I
23 would be invited to come again to testify.
24 Q. Thank you. We'll move on to something else.
25 When you came this week, I take it that you had a meeting with the
1 Prosecution, and that was last Sunday on the 2nd of September. Do you
2 recall meeting with the Prosecution on that occasion?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And it is my understanding that you were again shown a copy of
5 your interview and that you had a chance to read it in your own language.
6 Is that correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And my next question is: Were you shown any other material on
9 that occasion when you met with the Prosecution?
10 A. I was just shown a photograph and asked to identify some people,
11 and the day before yesterday I confirmed that.
12 Q. When you say "the day before yesterday," is that a second meeting
13 you had with the Prosecution or is that at the same meeting?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it during his testimony.
15 A. It was on Sunday, Sunday. On Sunday, I had contacts, and the day
16 before yesterday I confirmed this on the photograph that I was shown.
17 MR. BOURGON:
18 Q. Thank you, sir. For me, my purpose is simply to confirm that you
19 met with the Prosecution and you were shown your testimony, you were shown
20 a picture, and you only met with the Prosecution once. Is that correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, I mention this because we always get proofing notes following
23 any meeting you have with the Prosecution in order to allow us to prepare,
24 and I believe it is important that you are made aware that we have what is
25 discussed between you and the Prosecution before you testify.
1 And the only thing I'd like to say is that, during that meeting on
2 Sunday, would you agree with me that very little, if any, new information
3 came out? Is that correct?
4 A. Well, there weren't any. I just read through the transcript and
5 confirmed what was there, that I understood, and there were no additional
6 questions, except to show me the photograph.
7 Q. And I take it, based on the information I have here, that you also
8 at this meeting, you recognised Nikolic. You said that was because of his
9 hair, his distinctive hair; is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you also stated on that occasion,
12 two more details; the first one being that the alleged meeting between
13 your friend and Mr. Nikolic took place upstairs at Standard, and that it
14 may have been in the commander or the deputy commander's office. Is that
16 A. Well, I don't know whose office it was, but it wasn't that of
17 Commander Pandurevic or Obrenovic. It wasn't their office. It was quite
18 a different office. I don't know whose office it actually was.
19 Q. I take it from your answer that you know where the office of
20 Commander Pandurevic and the office of the deputy commander is. Is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Because according to the information I have, it says here it may
24 have been in the commander or deputy commander's office. Can you clarify
25 this for me, please?
1 A. No, no, I didn't say that. I didn't say that at all. It's quite
2 a different office. When you go up the stairs onto the floor above, the
3 office was to your left, the first door to your left, but we looked for
4 Mr. Pandurevic on the right, where his office was.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. I'll just leave it at that. But I also say that
6 it was the first time that you ever provided any information concerning
7 which office this alleged meeting took place in. Would you agree with
9 A. The first time, I explained where the meeting was held between
10 myself [as interpreted], my friend, and Mr. Nikolic.
11 Q. Well, we'll get back to that, but I'm saying that before that --
12 well, okay. First let's make a correction in the transcript.
13 I believe, if I read page 68, lines 12 and 13, it says: "The
14 first time, I explained where the meeting was held between myself, my
15 friend, and Mr. Nikolic."
16 First, I'd like to confirm that you were not in that office when
17 your friend spoke to Mr. Nikolic, as you testified. Is that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So just now that we take this maybe slip of the tongue away from
20 the equation, you say that you said the first time where the meeting was
21 held. Now, what I'm saying to you today is that based on the information
22 that I have, you were asked that question before, but you never said and
23 never indicated any area precisely or any office where that meeting was
24 held. Do you agree with me?
25 A. The question was asked, but I didn't know whose office it was.
1 All I know is that it wasn't Mr. Pandurevic's office or Mr. Obrenovic's.
2 Q. And the fact that it says here in the proofing note that it may
3 have been the commander or deputy commander's office is a mistake that was
4 done by the Prosecution; that's your testimony today?
5 A. Well, I don't know if it's a mistake. All I know is that I did
6 not say that it was in Mr. Pandurevic's or Mr. Obrenovic's office. It
7 wasn't there. It was in another office. I don't know whose office that
9 Q. Now, another thing you said when you met with the Prosecution on
10 that time, you said, prior to 1995, your friend told you that Nikolic was
11 involved in intelligence and security. Did you say that to the
13 A. No, I didn't put it that way. That's not what I said.
14 Q. So you don't know if it's a mistake, but you never said that your
15 friend told you that Nikolic was involved in intelligence and security; is
16 that correct?
17 A. I knew about that, as I told you, but my friend didn't comment to
18 me on that.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. I'll move on to a different question. But, of
20 course, that information will be part of the record, just so at least we
21 know that you today are saying something different than what I have on
22 this information which was provided to me by the Prosecution.
23 Let me move to a different topic or simply just close on this
24 issue. I want to know whether you have, in your possession, a copy of
25 your interview in your language. Did you ever have this in your
2 A. No, I haven't got one.
3 Q. Did you at any time were given a copy to bring home, or here for a
4 couple of days to keep with you, to prepare for your testimony?
5 A. No. Just when I came last time and this time again, I read
6 through it. I was given the opportunity of reading through it several
7 times, but I didn't take it away with me.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. I'll move to a different series of questions,
9 and, basically, I'd like to ask you a few things about the events which
10 took place in 1992.
11 As I mentioned previously, you did meet with the Prosecution on 27
12 November 2002 to discuss these events. You've already said "yes" to this
13 question, but what I need to do at this time, so that the Trial Chamber
14 understands those events which I will cover in my cross-examination, I
15 would like to confirm some of the basic facts which I believe you are
16 aware of and that are established.
17 The first one is that: You are aware that an attack was conducted
18 on Zvornik on the 8th of April, 1992?
19 A. That's when the war began or the conflict in Zvornik.
20 Q. And these are established facts, so it shouldn't be a problem for
21 you to confirm that many units were involved in this attack on 8 April
22 1992, including units of the Territorial Defence of Zvornik, which were
23 commanded by Branko Popovic, or his other name, Marko Pavlovic, and other
24 paramilitary units such as Arkan's units. So you're aware of these facts,
25 aren't you?
1 A. I know about the participation of Arkan's units, but I don't know
2 under whose command they were.
3 Q. Now, you're aware this attack was conducted pursuant to a plan
4 which was adopted by the Serbian Democratic Party, the SDS, which wanted
5 to take over the municipality of Zvornik to chase out the Muslim
6 population and to proclaim this territory as a Serbian municipality; are
7 you aware of this?
8 A. Well, I don't know of that plan.
9 Q. So if I look at the information report, which contains what you
10 said to the Prosecution on 27 November 2002, let's begin maybe with some
11 of the main players involved. It's my understanding from that report that
12 you know who Branko, or is it Brano, Grujic is, as well as the position he
13 held at that time; is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. So if I tell you, at the time, Brano Grujic was the president of
16 the Serbian Democratic Party, SDS, president of the Serbian municipality
17 of Zvornik, and that he became the president of the Serbian municipality
18 of Zvornik War Staff in April 1992, these facts are accurate, are they?
19 A. That's how the public was informed.
20 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, just to inform, before I get an
21 objection from the Prosecution, these questions have to do with the
22 credibility of the witness. I need to establish these facts before I go
23 into any substantive question, and I will be done shortly.
24 Q. Sir, let me continue and say that pursuant to the information
25 report that I have, you knew Brano Grujic very well before the war; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, what about Branko Popovic? You know him, and you know who he
4 is; right?
5 A. I knew him under the name of "Marko Pavlovic," and (redacted)
7 Q. Now, would you agree with me that during the conflict, of course,
8 you just mentioned is a.k.a., or his "also known as," name --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Bourgon.
10 Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'm a little concerned about the
12 identification of the location at that page. I just simply ask for a
13 redaction, if anybody is familiar with that individual.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, agreed?
15 MR. BOURGON: I agree, Mr. President, and I think we should move
16 into closed session for the next two or three questions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll redact that, and we'll move
18 into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 14937-14954 redacted. Private session
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Witness, we'll continue tomorrow morning at
13 9.00. In the meantime, please, same accommodation as before, don't
14 discuss or allow anyone to discuss with you the subject of your testimony.
15 You can escort the witness out, because I see Mr. Thayer on his
17 MR. THAYER: Just a scheduling question, Mr. President, really.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I was going to ask that myself.
19 May I have, before I give you "la parole," Mr. Thayer, how much
20 more do you reckon you have?
21 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I had announced three hours, and I
22 will need a little more than that, so I figure tomorrow I will need the
23 first session and at least half the second session.
24 Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
1 Mr. Ostojic.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Mr. President, we'll try to keep it below an hour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's all I wanted to know, because the
4 rest is -- okay.
5 Okay. So we'll continue tomorrow morning.
6 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
7 MR. THAYER: I was just wondering if we could have an idea of how
8 much of that time we're going to spend in 1992, if we have an idea.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 MR. BOURGON: I would prefer to keep surprises, but it's my
11 pleasure to inform my colleague I will about maybe 15 or 20 minutes at the
12 most in 1992.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And they all have to do with credibility, I
15 MR. BOURGON: 1992, yes. The rest is also credibility, but in a
16 different regard with the events of 1995.
17 Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 So we stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of
22 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.