Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16360

1 Tuesday, 16 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. If you could kindly

7 call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. All the accused are present.

11 From the Defence teams I only notice the absence of Mr. Lazarevic. The

12 Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Thayer and Ms. Janisiewicz.

13 The witness, Mr. Dibb, is presents in the courtroom. We will

14 proceed with his testimony. I take it there are no preliminaries and then

15 after that we'll continue with the other witness.

16 Good morning to you, Mr. Dibb.

17 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic will conclude his cross-examination

19 soon. We'll then see if there is re-examination or whether there are any

20 further -- but I don't think there are further cross-examinations so --

21 and hopefully within the next hour, you'll be out and free to go back.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

25 Honours.

Page 16361


2 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

3 Q. Good morning Mr. Dibb.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. Sir, yesterday we left off essentially looking at Exhibit 1D00374

6 and with the Court's permission I'd like to give that exhibit to you again

7 to review. But my question is specific. If you can just identify the

8 individual on the front cover sheet, who was supposed to report to General

9 Smith on or about July of 1995, with respect to the contents of what's in

10 this document.

11 A. As we got to yesterday, from Ken Biser drafted by Ed Joseph. What

12 I would say, though, is that it's on the info list, it is purely up to the

13 civil affairs chain, not necessarily through the military chain.

14 Q. And Can you explain why it doesn't go through the military chain?

15 A. Not particularly apart from the fact that we touched yesterday on

16 command structures and if there are two parallel commands, in this case

17 one civilian, one military, there is always the possibility that things

18 will go up one and not necessarily up the other simultaneously.

19 Q. And it would cause for more chaos or more disorder, would you

20 agree?

21 A. Yes, certainly it's far from ideal but it also depends on what is

22 the content of the document, and you would also have to ask General Smith

23 rather than me as to just how much of this traffic he saw.

24 Q. Let me ask you because we were discussing the purported massacre

25 that you heard although you don't remember from whom or when you heard it,

Page 16362

1 was it at all possible or probable that you understood this massacre to be

2 that they were Muslims who were killed during a combat battle while they

3 were in the column trying to escape and leave Srebrenica to get to Tuzla

4 or other BiH territory?

5 A. No. My recollection is that the information we were receiving was

6 that it had been an atrocity rather than a military action.

7 Q. As you sit here you don't know from whom you heard this from, nor

8 when you heard it, correct?

9 A. My recollection is it was certainly before deployment to Zepa.

10 Q. Well, that's July 25th, I recall you saying, right?

11 A. According to the earliest --

12 Q. Did you hear if anyone died --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly request that the

14 speakers make pauses between question and answer. Thank you.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. I apologise.

16 Q. Do you recall if there was any news of any Bosnian Muslims dying

17 as a result of combat operations while they were fleeing Srebrenica

18 through the forest trying to reach the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. At this stage, sorry, no I don't recall if we had that

20 information.

21 Q. Let's look together at this Exhibit 1D0 -- I lost the number now,

22 but I think you could read it for me right on top, 374, I believe, up on

23 the top right-hand corner?

24 A. Yeah, 374.

25 Q. Let's look at the second page of that document and although you

Page 16363

1 were with Ed Joseph and other civil affairs officers from July 25th, with

2 whom you may have had some informal if not formal discussions about the

3 events that were developing both in Tuzla and around Srebrenica, do you

4 see under bullet point number 3 under the caption "Some of the Srebrenica

5 men arrive," then as we've discussed, they talk about the 5.000 or 6.000

6 who crossed into the BiH 2nd Corps territory and then the third bullet

7 points talk about those who were killed?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the interpreters, thank

9 you. Could counsel please repeat the question?


11 Q. Okay. Sir, do you see the third bullet point on page 2 which is

12 captioned "Some of the Srebrenica men arrive"?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14 THE WITNESS: No I'm looking in the wrong place.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Dibb. Mr. Thayer?

16 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President, what we have up on

17 e-court is not from what I can see what's being discussed. I don't know

18 if anybody else is having this problem. Okay. We've got it now.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it is the one, okay. All right. Let's

20 continue.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Maybe I'll restate it a little slower, Mr. Dibb.

22 Q. Sir, I know you're looking through the entire document, and you're

23 welcome to look at it, but am I clear that you weren't giving these

24 documents in preparation for your testimony by the Office of the

25 Prosecutor, correct?

Page 16364

1 A. This one I don't recall seeing before, no.

2 Q. Okay. And this is a document I just want to you focus on the

3 first paragraph of page 2 and it's under the caption where it says "Some

4 of the Srebrenica men arrive." Do you see that on --

5 A. Yeah, yeah, got it. Sorry, I was looking further down.

6 Q. It's okay. Paragraph number one, there is a three little hash

7 marks, I'm focusing now on this third one. Do you see that?

8 A. I've seen, yep.

9 Q. Now, from the 17th, which is the date of this document, up through

10 the 25th and while you were in Zepa with Mr. Edward Joseph, did you ever

11 or do you recall discussing that there were men who were killed on the way

12 through the forest trying to escape Srebrenica to reach the free territory

13 as they called it?

14 A. I don't recall discussing that with them, but I also don't see

15 anything peculiar that I've failed to recall that. We may well have

16 discussed it.

17 Q. Well, as you sit here, you don't recall it, though, correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And do you remember discussing the number that was being reported

20 by the UNMOs, the civil affairs, and others?

21 A. I don't recall that being discussed at this stage. However,

22 again, things have slightly mashed together over time. What I do recall

23 is that it -- information came out in bits and pieces and there was over a

24 period of some time. There's debate over what the numbers were.

25 Q. Do you remember a debate about whether the number was greater than

Page 16365

1 or less than 3.000?

2 A. Not particularly, no.

3 Q. We get information that you had maintained some notes or records

4 during your stay in the former Yugoslavia, and I know you said that it

5 could be in several different places. Had you ever had an opportunity to

6 go back and try to find those notes?

7 A. Yes. I have seen them before. What has happened since is I've

8 moved out of Scotland to Afghanistan and packed my stuff up, so they are

9 somewhere I'm just not sure where.

10 Q. Have you done anything recently to try to obtain or uncover those

11 notes?

12 A. No, I've not been back in the U.K. for months.

13 Q. What I find interesting here, you work with the Halo Trust and

14 obviously you're in charge or you have a directorship position with a

15 company that does de-mining projects across the world, correct?

16 A. Not a directorship but yes, I'm one of the senior staff.

17 Q. One of the senior staff. Hopefully one day you'll be director,

18 but with respect to that do you see in this specific bullet point that the

19 UNMOs, the civil affairs, and other United Nations organisations reported

20 that these men were killed among other reasons as a result of mines that

21 were placed in the forest over the course of the three years in the war?

22 A. I see that, yes.

23 Q. Wouldn't that be an interesting point for you as a person who

24 works with the Halo Trust to look at and to examine and to find out

25 whether it's -- how accurate it is?

Page 16366

1 A. If I'm allowed to speculate I'd say thousands killed on mines is a

2 fantasy.

3 Q. And why is that?

4 A. It just simply mine casualties don't get that high over quick

5 periods of time.

6 Q. Share with me this: How many mines were placed in the forest

7 through -- from 1992 to 1995 on the route that the column took from

8 Srebrenica to Tuzla?

9 A. I simply don't know.

10 Q. Okay. Well, you worked for the Halo Trust, do you know if

11 anything at the Halo Trust did any such investigative work to determine

12 that?

13 A. No. We, the Halo Trust did -- we call it a recce into Bosnia, but

14 we chose not to work there. What I can say is that mine figures globally

15 tend to be hugely exaggerated, and I think at one stage there was talk of

16 33 million mines being laid in the former Yugoslavia possibly in Bosnia

17 itself. Again, I would say without hesitation that would be a fantasy.

18 We've is seen countries such as Afghanistan, people talk about 10

19 to 15 million. Having been there for 20 years, I would say the number is

20 closer to 620.000 and that statistical difference is something that we

21 have seen in virtually every country we have worked in around the world.

22 Q. Can you explain or can you tell us if there is any reason that the

23 facts that are set forth in this internal cable, which is highlighted as

24 being immediate and restrictive with the United Nations, is there any

25 reason that we should disbelieve these three or other points that they

Page 16367

1 make in this table?

2 A. You've got to look at the date on it.

3 Q. The 17th of July 1995?

4 A. Yeah, yeah and you've got it think how long it takes to gather

5 that sort of information, and I don't doubt that they were getting reports

6 coming in to say these things had happened. However, there is obviously

7 absolutely no time at all to - I would say - to verify whether these

8 things had actually happened. And if we are talking specifically on the

9 issue of mine accidents, which I'm extremely familiar with, that would

10 take you know weeks if not months I think to ascertain genuinely if that

11 many people were injured on mines on that particular route.

12 Q. Well, as you sit here, do you know if any UN organisation or

13 entity actually tried to find the answer to that question? It's been 12

14 years now.

15 A. I'm well aware that is a Bosnian mine action centre run by the UN

16 who I would assume have done some sort of survey work, but having said

17 that, and with due respect, I've got, how to phrase it, not the greatest

18 respect for UN-run mine action centres around the world. So they may or

19 may not have done that, and you would have to speak to them and consult

20 records which must be on the public record because donors who fund mine

21 action surveys, one of the criteria of providing the funding is that that

22 information is public information.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, we are not just going to look at the mining

24 accidents or incidents that may have occurred but it also references BSA

25 engagements. Do you see that immediately after the word, I think,

Page 16368

1 "mines"?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Do you know what BSA stands for, Bosnian Serb army?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know how many BSA engagements there were from the fall of

6 Srebrenica up through this report, the 17th of July 1995?

7 A. I have absolutely no idea.

8 Q. So you never discussed that with Edward Joseph?

9 A. Again I can't say I did or didn't discuss it. I would also say

10 sitting here that Edward Joseph and anyone in civil affairs would also not

11 have none exactly how many engagements there were. They might have had a

12 knowledge of how many reported engagements but that too wouldn't

13 necessarily be the definitive amount.

14 Q. You spoke a little bit about Captain Bliss, I think, do you

15 remember his first name who was your counterpart to the ABiH?

16 A. Emma Bliss.

17 Q. Do you know if he prepared similar such reports while he was

18 negotiating or speaking with the ABiH representatives at that time?

19 A. Sorry, Emma is a she but that's beside the point entirely.

20 Q. I apologise.

21 A. I don't know if she would have -- if she had been in meetings with

22 senior BiH officers and that information had been passed to her, then I

23 have little doubt that she would have passed that information on to

24 General Smith.

25 Q. Well, who would have been providing information that General Smith

Page 16369

1 so that he could find a balance between what his people are telling him

2 the Bosnian Serbs are doing and that which the Bosnian Muslims were doing

3 at that critical time? Would it have been Captain Bliss?

4 A. Possibly, but I would guess it would have been happening at a -

5 and again I stress I would guess - it would have been happening at a

6 higher level and it wasn't -- it wasn't rare for General Smith's office to

7 be contacted by Mr. Muratovic and his office. And he would call up the

8 general and say, "Listen, these are the reports that are coming to us."

9 So it wouldn't necessarily have been through BiH military

10 channels. It could have been through Muratovic's office. And in such

11 cases, it's-- I've certainly attended meetings with Muratovic that General

12 Smith attended. I'd have thought it was as likely or more likely that he

13 would have gone in person to such a meeting.

14 Q. Now, do you know who was in charge to actually determine from the

15 ABiH army or ABiH being the army, the number of soldiers that were fleeing

16 from Srebrenica? Do you know who the one individual was that was supposed

17 to maintain that information or gather that information?

18 A. Sorry, just to clarify the person within BHC staff tasked to

19 gather that?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. There was a J2 intelligence cell as part of that -- as part of BHC

22 setup so that sort of information would -- the primary source of that

23 would have come through the J2 cell rather than the two liaison officers,

24 myself and Captain Bliss.

25 Q. Would you give me a name of a JC officer that would have been

Page 16370

1 providing that information as to how many Bosnian Muslims were potentially

2 in the forests and breaking through and ultimately reaching the free

3 territory?

4 A. Again that information must be readily available. I'm trying to

5 remember the man's name, it might have been Paul but I might be completely

6 wrong on that.

7 Q. Now, you talk a little bit about the disorder that UNPROFOR

8 experienced in Tuzla on or about the 14th of July when you were there.

9 Can you tell me what in your view is the number 1 reason for this

10 disorder?

11 A. It's a -- it's difficult to say exactly what the number 1 reason

12 was. I think they were not as well prepared for it as they should have

13 been, is self-evident. But whether that's the reason or whether that's a

14 symptom of something else.

15 Q. Was there any problems with actually the civilian population that

16 was arriving in Tuzla that caused this to become more of a disorganised or

17 disorderly assemblence such as rocks throwing by the people who arrived,

18 whether we call them displaced persons or refugees?

19 A. Not that I recall at that stage. It wouldn't surprise me at all

20 if tension had built up and rocks may have been thrown at a later date.

21 However, that -- if that happened, again, I surmise that would have been

22 because not enough was being done in the short term, so I think it was

23 more a failing on the UN and other bodies to get themselves organised

24 which was the problem. And probably the sheer scale of the people coming

25 in.

Page 16371

1 Again Tuzla hadn't, I don't think, was -- I don't know how well

2 staffed Tuzla was at that stage, but it was more down to their inability

3 to deal with it than a problem with the refugees/displace.

4 Q. Now you mentioned earlier today Mr. Muratovic, who was minister I

5 think, is it Dr. Hasan Muratovic, do you remember that?

6 A. Hasan Muratovic, yes.

7 Q. And do you remember if there were any conflicts between the United

8 Nations and him in particular being a representative of the BiH with

9 respect to the refugees that had just an arrived on the days that you were

10 there, do you remember that at all?

11 A. Again, I don't and what I would say is that for quite a bit of

12 this period I was as we've noted in Tuzla, Bratunac, and Zepa itself which

13 means to some extent I was out of the whatever conflict was going on

14 within BHC command itself. So things would almost certainly have been

15 going on that wouldn't have been part of my immediate patch or day to day

16 dealings over this period.

17 Q. Help me with this. What was Mr. Muratovic's main purpose and

18 goal, if you remember, at that period from the 14th on of 1995, July?

19 A. Where I remember clearly Muratovic's name coming up was when we

20 were in Zepa, so to be clear, I don't recall Muratovic's involvement from

21 the 14th to prior to the 25th. I do remember his name coming up in Zepa

22 in discussions of prisoner exchanges, and at that stage, there was I think

23 two things. One it appeared that there was an effort to thrash out an

24 agreement on the ground with the commanders on the ground, Avdo Palic,

25 Mladic, saying with Palic being happy to say please look after my troops

Page 16372

1 I'd like to get into a prisoner swap with the ABiH troops from Zepa, and

2 BSA prisoners, the word coming back from Sarajevo was more hang on we want

3 to do an all for all. And again I'm -- all for all, I'm surmising he

4 means all ABiH prisoners, but at this stage I don't remember.

5 Muratovic also slightly, I think once the main body of people had

6 left, this whole issue of there is still civilians left in Zepa was again

7 something raised by Muratovic.

8 Q. But do you remember, sir, that in fact it was Muratovic who

9 disagreed with Palic and did not want to exchange the purported 2.000

10 Bosnian Muslims soldiers who were in the hills with 500 VRS soldiers? Do

11 you remember that at all?

12 A. That's -- I remember that being the issue. What I can't tell you

13 is how Muratovic's message was conveyed to that meeting, but I recall

14 General Smith was attending the meeting so again, we would need to ask

15 General Smith if he had met with Muratovic and had conveyed that message

16 from Muratovic to that body, to the best of my knowledge, there was no

17 direct communication between Avdo Palic and Muratovic, and we certainly

18 weren't providing that communication.

19 Q. Okay. Well then I just need a little help. Even though you've

20 read your statement before testifying and we're pretty clear on your

21 recollection, it states on page 4 of your statement that Mladic wanted to

22 exchange -- and you talked here in this statement which is on page 4, the

23 first full paragraph on the 26th of July. It says that "Mladic wanted to

24 exchange all the men from the hills in Zepa some 2.000 men for

25 approximately 500 VRS prisoners being held by the Bosnians." You go on in

Page 16373

1 your statement to say quote "Palic agreed to this but Muratovic would not

2 agree."

3 Where would you get that information if you're inviting me to ask

4 General Smith but you had no such information but yet put it in your

5 statement?

6 A. Yeah, I'm -- what I'm saying is that would have been we talked

7 yesterday with you or your colleague behind about did I have discussions

8 with General Smith in Zepa, which I said almost certainly but I don't

9 remember the content thereof. Obviously, I would have talked with Smith

10 and Baxter, who I think probably was there, and there would have been some

11 briefing on you know this is the situation that we are in so that we would

12 have had awareness of what was happening around us. So I would say I've

13 got that information from the Sarajevo team which turned up in Zepa to

14 conduct these discussions with Mladic and Palic.

15 Q. But as you sit here, do you recall Muratovic not agreeing to that

16 proposal by Mladic to make an exchange of 500 VRS soldiers for 2.000

17 Bosnian Muslim soldiers?

18 A. Yeah. If you're asking do I remember that being the issue, very

19 definitely I do. If you're asking do I remember Muratovic personally

20 saying it, very definitely I don't because I simply wasn't there when he

21 did say it.

22 Q. But it's in your statement and there is no doubt that it was

23 Muratovic who refused it, would you agree with me there?

24 A. From my understanding, very definitely. I was absolutely clear in

25 my mind that it was Muratovic who was the call it the stumbling block,

Page 16374

1 call it whatever, in Sarajevo.

2 Q. Was this something that that you had experienced with the minister

3 Muratovic prior to this occasion on July 26 involving Zepa or was this the

4 first time that you experienced this as you coin it stumbling block?

5 A. Again, exact dates are difficult. I said earlier I had a meeting

6 with Muratovic with General Smith. I think that probably happened

7 sometime after this, but I know he was in fairly regular contact with

8 General Smith and his office. And he's saying he was a stumbling block,

9 let's put that in inverted commas. All sides were coming to us with their

10 side of the particular story, and it was for the commander of UNPROFOR to

11 try and steer a course through various sides so --

12 Q. Thank you. Was the minister, Minister Muratovic particularly, was

13 -- and this POW issue, would we call this a policy issue or how would you

14 coin it?

15 A. Difficult for me to answer in that I don't think I'm -- well, I

16 know I wasn't fully aware of all the facts surrounding it. I'm not sure

17 if it was a Muratovic personal issue or if it was an issue where he truly

18 represented the Bosnian government and it was something that had been

19 agreed by General Delic and others, which I would have thought would have

20 been relevant in this particular case.

21 Q. But the POW issue is a policy issue, you would agree with me

22 there, correct?

23 A. The government policy or Muratovic policy?

24 Q. Government policy in general.

25 A. I really couldn't say on that one.

Page 16375

1 Q. Do you know if he was in a position, being a minister, whether he

2 was in a position to make decisions relating to any government policy,

3 whether it be POW or others?

4 A. As a minister I'm sure he would have been, but can you remind me

5 of what, minister of what that he was?

6 Q. Well, actually many different roles, but I'd like to -- do you

7 think General Smith, since you have found or think that Muratovic, Hasan

8 was a person of position and prepared to make decisions relating to

9 policy, do you know if General Smith would have had the same view as you

10 did?

11 A. I don't.

12 Q. Okay.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to intervene not to let him answer that

14 question.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?

16 Q. Now, do you remember a person by the name or nickname Palijan

17 [phoen]?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. Okay. Mustafa Hajrulahovic, do you remember him at all, an

20 intelligence officer?

21 A. Yeah, I know the name, Captain Bliss used to deal with him. I

22 don't recall meeting him personally.

23 Q. Now, during your proofing session with the Office of the

24 Prosecutor, did you ever ask them for any documents that may have been

25 generated or prepared by Captain Bliss or anyone to see what the ABiH was

Page 16376

1 thinking in these critical moments from July 14th through the 25th, let's

2 say?

3 A. No, I didn't.

4 Q. Okay. Did they share with you any of the contents of those

5 documents if any?

6 A. I don't think so.

7 Q. Now, I couldn't help but notice in reading your interview, you

8 don't mention in your interview that you at -- by the 25th of July 1995,

9 had received this information regarding a massacre but you testified to it

10 here. When is it that you recalled that you remembered that you were

11 informed of this massacre prior to July 25th 1995?

12 A. As I've said before, I don't have a clear recollection of that, of

13 the date that it was informed, and what I'm absolutely clear on is we --

14 Q. Sorry to interrupt, who is the we?

15 A. BHC.

16 Q. Okay. Go ahead?

17 A. BHC had suspicions something had happened, I simply, as I said,

18 things have merged. So the dates that we became certain there had been a

19 massacre versus the date there was consistent reports that something

20 had -- was untoward had occurred, and I'm certain by the 25th if we hadn't

21 had absolute confirmation there had been a massacre we were receiving

22 consistent reports that something was amiss, and it was for that reason

23 BHC took a decision to send a different team to Zepa.

24 Q. Let me just show you one last document with the Court's

25 permission, it's 2D0003, and I just have a couple of questions, Mr. Dibb,

Page 16377

1 on this document and if the usher would be kind enough with your

2 permission, Mr. President, to -- I guess we could just see it on e-court.

3 Thank you.

4 And again, Mr. Dibb, this is an out-going cable which seems to

5 have some immediate status to it, and you could see to whom it's going and

6 from whom and the people who are copied on this document. The date is the

7 19th of July 1995. Do you see it?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. Okay. Have you seen this document before?

10 A. Let me just have a quick look at it. I don't remember seeing it.

11 Q. Okay. We just want going to focus your attention in the brief

12 time that we have, it's a paragraph number 4 do you see that?

13 A. I've only got half of hour at the moment.

14 Q. It's that half that I'd like to discuss with you, but you're

15 welcome to take the original and look at both of them simultaneously if

16 you would like.

17 A. Thank you very much.

18 Q. Did you get a chance to look at that?

19 A. Yep.

20 Q. With respect to paragraph number 4, who from the United Nations

21 was providing or was -- let me strike that and let me repeat it. From

22 whom in particular was the United Nations representative obtaining the

23 information that's reflected on paragraph number 4?

24 A. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure. The J2 cell at BHC may have

25 been providing some of it.

Page 16378

1 Q. That's Paul again, right?

2 A. Yeah, if that's the right man. Some may have been coming through

3 that. Again it's coming up through the civilian chain not the military

4 chain, so they may have been looking at other sources.

5 Q. Okay. Well look at the third sentence which is in the third line,

6 doesn't it really indicate that it's a civilian source versus military

7 when it starts the sentence by saying, "ABiH 2nd Corps report"? That

8 seems to be more of a military source, doesn't it?

9 A. It appears to be, but you also have to understand that everybody

10 there was living this environment as you guys are living this particular

11 case, and it wouldn't surprise me particularly if civilians were aware of

12 which battalion was where. There are a lot of bright people out there.

13 Q. There is no doubt about that, but what I'm wanting to actually

14 obtain from you is, and if you don't know just tell us, would you know who

15 the one individual who was with the ABiH 2nd Corps who would have been

16 providing this information to the United Nations representatives?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. Okay. Do you know if these numbers could have been inflated or

19 underrepresentative of what was really coming through?

20 A. I'd say certainly they -- it's possible, yes.

21 Q. Either way it's possible, correct?

22 A. Yep.

23 Q. And it's probable that it was depending on whether you had any

24 political motivation to dictate other policies with respect to the ongoing

25 war, wouldn't it? It's something that happened at that time, wouldn't you

Page 16379

1 agree?

2 A. Looking at the previous document of mine casualties, I would say

3 that figure was inflated. But it's possible but I would be speculating.

4 Q. I want to go back to the mine thing only because I want to have

5 you rest comfortably. There was never a statement that said 3.000 died as

6 a result of any mine accidents. I think it was both the mine accidents as

7 well as the BSA engagements?

8 A. Agreed.

9 Q. So we don't know just by looking at that whether it was 50 per

10 cent mine accidents or 90 per cent mine accidents?

11 A. Agreed.

12 Q. Fair enough. Now we were talking a little about utilising some of

13 this data for political purposes, and even if you look at the paragraph 4

14 towards the end of that paragraph on page 2, there seems to be some

15 indication?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down for the translation?

17 Thank you.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. And I do apologise. Just trying to get

19 it within the estimated time, but I will slow down and I apologise.

20 Q. Mr. Dibb, we were generally talking about the use of such data

21 which is highly relevant and critical, especially given the situation at

22 that time and abusing that data for political purposes, okay, so focusing

23 on that, do you know, sir, what if anything General Smith did to obtain

24 more precise figures as to the number of ABiH soldiers who made it to the

25 free territory?

Page 16380

1 A. I don't specifically, no.

2 Q. Did you take any proactive initiative to obtain that information?

3 A. Personally?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Probably not, no. We -- what General Smith did do was send

6 Colonel Coiffet accompanied by me to Tuzla and down as far as Kladanj,

7 where I'm certain we would have been asking ABiH personnel there what the

8 story was. Thereafter, I was tasked on other different tasks.

9 Q. And would you agree with me that there should be reports from

10 people such as Colonel Coiffet and Powell from the JC 2 indicating what

11 the ABiH may have told them as to the number of military or civilian men

12 that reached Tuzla or Kladanj or any other area as a result of the fall of

13 the Srebrenica enclave?

14 A. Whether they -- whether reports to Smith would be written, how

15 much was done on briefs, again, the people who would know better than me.

16 I think in situations like this there would be a blizzard of information

17 coming in, or disinformation as we discussed coming in, and it would then

18 be for people to sift through it. And it's as your man Rumsfeld said,

19 you're dealing with all sorts of different knowns and unknowns, and any

20 commander or indeed this Court are dealing in that same world of truths

21 and half truths and trying to work out where exactly what you can count on

22 and what you can't count on.

23 Q. Last section, if you will. Can you help me understand, and then

24 you called it a morning prayers and these briefings, these are daily

25 morning briefings that you and General Smith and others would attend,

Page 16381

1 correct?

2 A. Yeah, the first one was a more -- the first one was a more general

3 briefing which had various people from come commanders from all the

4 outlying all the units within Sarajevo called in, would get a central ops

5 brief in the morning, this is what we know, this is what's happened, this

6 is what's going on. They would then often then be a slightly smaller

7 forum afterwards discussing other issues, and sensitive intelligence

8 matters would be more likely to be a face-to-face. As I said, I didn't

9 have secret clearance, so I certainly wouldn't have been invited or, you

10 know, again, why would I have the ability to attend those.

11 Q. I'm not suggesting that you did. Just give me an idea of how many

12 people attended these morning briefings sessions, 8, 12?

13 A. No, the first one I would say more like 30, 40, the second one

14 more like 8.

15 Q. The second one is the meeting that follows the early morning

16 meeting, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that would be broken down to 8, basically 8 people in one

19 group, correct??

20 A. 8 is a random number, but a much smaller number.

21 Q. Just identify for me, if you will in your group that you were

22 with, after their initial meeting meaning the group of 8, General Smith

23 was with you, I take it?

24 A. Yes, usually.

25 Q. Who else, just if you can identify them and their position?

Page 16382

1 A. General Smith, Colonel Baxter, and then really it would depend and

2 again I'm scratching my head to remember if this smaller one was an every

3 day or just when something had been raised. I would attend some, Coiffet

4 as deputy Chief of Staff, Nicolai's Chief of Staff may or may not have

5 attended. People from J2, J3, which is intelligence and operations, may

6 or may not have attended.

7 Q. And J3 is operations, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And who was the person if you remember when was in charge of J3?

10 A. I don't, to be honest.

11 Q. But there should some in some other documents, correct?

12 A. Sure.

13 Q. And is that the individual that you think most likely worked with

14 the ABiH in determining exactly what if any kind of operations were

15 undergoing in the forest while the men from Srebrenica were trying to make

16 it to Tuzla or Kladanj?

17 A. No. I would say J2 would be the more appropriate.

18 Q. More intelligence than operations?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. That's all I have, Mr. Dibb.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic. Do you have a

23 re-examination, Mr. Thayer?

24 MR. THAYER: I do have a few questions, Mr. President.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

Page 16383

1 Q. Good morning, sir.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. Forgive me, but I think I forgot to ask you what rank you held

4 during these events in July of 1995?

5 A. I was a captain at that stage.

6 Q. Okay. You were asked yesterday by Madam Fauveau about a statement

7 you gave to the OTP, Office of the Prosecutor, in 2006, and that's at page

8 16299 of yesterday's transcript. The statement refers to a meeting you

9 had on September 19th with General Smith, General Dragomir Milosevic of

10 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and General Miletic. Just to be clear, do

11 you recall whether the investigators and the attorneys from the OTP who

12 interviewed you in 2006 were part of this case or part of some other case?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment before you answer. Madam Fauveau?

14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I really do not see the relevance of

15 this question. I don't see that the answer of a witness really depends on

16 the team to which the Prosecutor belongs.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: What's your answer to that?

18 MR. THAYER: Your Honour it very well may be relevant, if certain

19 teams don't know certain players, don't know certain roles, they may not

20 have an opportunity to realise that certain things are said or not being

21 said.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We see validity in the point you raised or you

25 referred to in your answer to Madam Fauveau's objection. We agree with

Page 16384

1 you, Mr. Thayer, so the witness now will proceed to answer the question if

2 he's in a position to answer.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm afraid I was guilty of not digging into

4 that team specifically at the time, so I couldn't answer for certain.


6 Q. Okay, sir, and do you remember the first time or any other time

7 that you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor and if so, do

8 you recall what year that was?

9 A. The first time I was interviewed was, I believe, the end of 1996

10 in London.

11 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Josse asked you some questions yesterday about

12 what information you had about the fate of the Srebrenica men by the time

13 you left Zepa, and certainly that's been the subject of some questions by

14 my friend Mr. Ostojic yesterday and today.

15 I want to show you a couple of public-source articles that

16 appeared during this period of time. We do have 65 ter numbers for them.

17 The first is 65 ter 467, and we will be looking at page 2 of the English

18 and page 2 of the B/C/S. Can you read that okay, can you read that all

19 right, sir?

20 A. Can you blow it up a little bit?

21 Q. Okay. It's a little small on our screen, too.

22 A. Thank you.

23 Q. You'll note that the source is Belgrade SRNA, the date is 17 July,

24 the time is 1854 hours Greenwich mean time. There is a reference here to

25 a Jovan Zametica and it describes him as an adviser to the president of

Page 16385

1 the Bosnian Serb Republic. You referred to an individual, I believe, by a

2 similar or identical name. Do you believe that this is the individual who

3 you dealt with on the civilian side of the Serb government, sir?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Now, I just ask to you take a moment and read the article here.

6 A. Thank you.

7 Q. Now, the -- apparently this appears to be a statement that

8 Mr. Zametica --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Madam Fauveau?

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to know

11 whether we could have the B/C/S version so that the accused can follow

12 what is going on.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Fauveau.

14 MR. THAYER: I do have hard copies, Mr. President, if that will be

15 of immediate assistance.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have solved that, Madam Fauveau. Yeah, I

18 think we have solved that Madam Fauveau. If at any time we need to go

19 back to the English text and have it blown up again, we will do that.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead, please.


23 Q. Now, sir, this appears, this article appears to be based on an a

24 statement that was issued by Mr. Zametica and in it it refers to over the

25 past few days the world media, assisted and prompted by the Muslim

Page 16386

1 authorities, have indulged in an orgy of uncritical reporting on the

2 events in Srebrenica, claims of torture, executions, rapes and

3 deportations of Muslims are being constantly repeated without any

4 independent confirmation.

5 My question is, during this period of time, and I know you've told

6 us that you were busy, you were assigned to other things, but did you

7 become aware yourself, do you have any recollection of the international

8 media raising these issues reporting on these reports of torture,

9 executions, rapes and deportation to the extent that this individual with

10 whom you liaised obviously felt compelled to issue a response? Do you

11 remember the international media having picked up on these reports during

12 this period of time?

13 A. Yes, I do and again it's just trying to pinpoint at exactly which

14 date I remember it happening but, yes, I remember that the media getting

15 hold of the story pretty early on. And running with it ever since.

16 Q. Now, sir, if we could turn to 65 ter 466, and we'll be looking at

17 page 3 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S. And if we employ the same

18 procedure that Mr. President suggested, I have a copy of the English for

19 the witness if we are going to put the B/C/S on the screen.

20 A. Thank you.

21 Q. Just take a moment, sir, and let me know when you've had an

22 opportunity to read it.

23 A. Thank you.

24 Q. Sir, this is a copy of an article that was picked up by the

25 Beijing Xinhua. Do you know what that is, what the Xinhua News Agency is,

Page 16387

1 sir?

2 A. No, I don't.

3 Q. Apparently it made it to China, and it refers to the UN Security

4 Council on the 14th of July demanding that the Bosnian Serbs respect fully

5 the rights of the civilian population from Srebrenica. Did you become

6 aware during this period of time, sir, that in fact the UN had taken this

7 action this early and that it had apparently been picked up by the

8 international media? Is this the type of thing that you were aware of?

9 A. Yes, I was aware of the UN engaging and as you say dealing with

10 demands for troops to move, for civilian population to be treated in a

11 humane manner. I may be wrong in my recollection, but I seem to think

12 there might also have been a civilian shot dead in front of the Dutch

13 peacekeepers at that stage which I think was pretty well reported. And

14 again that would have acted as a trigger anywhere that things weren't

15 quite right.

16 Q. Okay, sir, I just want to show you one other document along these

17 lines, and this is not something that has a 65 ter number. It was

18 disclosed 18 October of 2005. I have hard copies for all the parties, if

19 they wish, and I've got a copy for the ELMO, just a couple of questions on

20 it. The ERN is R0033695 to 3698. And do you have a copy? If you could

21 please just look at the first -- the cover page and I'm only really going

22 to ask you about one portion of one paragraph, so...

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have a copy of this

24 document.

25 MR. THAYER: There should be sufficient numbers, so I would kindly

Page 16388

1 ask someone to furnish -- okay. And we are putting it on the ELMO.

2 Q. Okay, sir, the -- the document is dated the 13th of July, and it

3 appears to be or is signed by General Smith; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Headed "The aftermath of fall of Srebrenica." If we look at the

6 cover sheet, the distribution sheet, can you help us and just tell us

7 based on this, can you tell what the scope of the distribution was meant

8 to be for this document?

9 A. HQUNPF Zagreb would be General Janvier. Attention SRSG, attache,

10 FC, DFC, not sure, immediately Chief of Staff, COS, Chief of Staff,

11 Brigadier General Nicolai.

12 Q. And could FC and DFC stand for force commander and deputy force

13 commander or is that not?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?

15 MR. JOSSE: A leading question, and I object.

16 MR. THAYER: I mean, Mr. President --.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You can rephrase it, Mr. Thayer, that's easy.


19 Q. Were you aware, sir, of any abbreviations for General Janvier's

20 position?

21 A. General Janvier was, yeah, force commander.

22 Q. I'll move on to my question. Sir, I want to turn your attention

23 to the first page of General Smith's memorandum and specifically to

24 paragraph 3. Where it says, "The Bosnian Serbs are cleansing Srebrenica,

25 DutchBat are doing what they can to monitor the situation but reports of

Page 16389

1 abductions and murder unconfirmed as yet are beginning to be heard."

2 Sir, let me ask you first, do you have any recollection of

3 receiving or viewing this memorandum from General Smith?

4 A. Again, no, I don't remember specifically seeing this previously.

5 Q. Were you aware at the time that General Smith had this type of

6 information, these reports, that he refers to, and I'll leave it there for

7 now?

8 A. Yeah, going back, as I've said, information was coming in from a

9 variety of sources and my recollection is clearly that we were receiving

10 reports of atrocities happening in and around Srebrenica, so, yes, I'm

11 certain General Smith will have had those reports.

12 Q. Now, sir, my last question is: With respect to the negotiations

13 that were on going with respect to Zepa and in particular to the

14 disposition of the military-aged men of Zepa, my friend Mr. Ostojic asked

15 you some questions about, for example, Minister Muratovic's role in those

16 discussions. Did you ever become aware of the Bosnian Muslims fear,

17 whether it was the Bosnian Muslims in Sarajevo, in the political area, or

18 the Bosnian Muslims on the ground in Zepa, did you ever become aware of

19 their fear of the military-age men of Zepa being placed, should there be a

20 surrender, in the hands of the Serbs prior to any exchange versus in the

21 hands of another party, for example, UNPROFOR, and that being an obstacle

22 in the eyes of the Muslims, an obstacle to an agreement? Did you ever

23 become aware of that, sir?

24 A. What I can say -- and I may ask to you rephrase the bit about how

25 it becomes an obstacle an agreement -- but let me answer part of it any

Page 16390

1 way. When we spoke to Avdo Palic on the first day, he made it clear, and

2 again, obviously his exact words I don't recall, but it was we hope that

3 our troops or our people are going to be treated humanely, and what I do

4 recall is my -- my interpretation of that being not -- not like what has

5 happened previously in Srebrenica.

6 We also have to look at the-- the means through which military-age

7 men were evacuated from Zepa. It was quite clear the rest of -- women and

8 children were put into unprotected buses and trucks but that simply wasn't

9 deemed acceptable, I think by everybody, probably everybody meaning UN and

10 Palic and the Bosnians themselves, and it was deemed that the

11 military-aged men had to travel with UN drivers in armoured vehicles,

12 which clearly shows there was genuine fear that something -- something

13 might happen untoward if military-aged men fell into the hands of the

14 Bosnian Serb army.

15 Q. Okay. And then just to finish up on the question, and I'll try to

16 clarify it for you. I know it was a convoluted question to begin with,

17 but that concern that you just described of military-aged men falling into

18 the hands of the VRS, do you recall hearing, receiving any information,

19 that that concern became an obstacle to the overall or any overall

20 agreement with respect to the military-aged men who were still in the

21 hills; that is, whether the men would ever be placed in VRS hands or not

22 during the course of any future exchange? Do you remember hearing

23 anything about that? If you didn't, that's fine and that's my last

24 question, sir.

25 A. Yeah. I simply don't recall that.

Page 16391

1 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions?

2 A. Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

4 Mr. Dibb, we've come to the end of your testimony. There are no

5 further questions for you, which means you're free to go. On behalf of

6 the Tribunal I wish to thank you for having come over to give evidence and

7 on behalf of everyone present, I wish you a safe journey back to your

8 place of work.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, documents?

12 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, in an effort to meet the estimate I had

13 given, I cut out all the video so as I'm sure everyone noticed. So we are

14 really down to four items, the first is 65 ter 2575, P02575. The two

15 press articles, P0 -- I guess that would be P00467 and P00466.

16 Mr. President, I would offer what is -- we may have to have some

17 discussions with my friends about this, but in the Krstic case there was a

18 collection of news articles that reached the international press during

19 this period of time, as we've seen. It has become an issue. Those were

20 collected into an exhibit and admitted in the Krstic case. They do have

21 all 65 ter numbers. They're all along the same lines as these two that I

22 showed Mr. Dibb. We would offer that collective binder or small packet of

23 documents along the same lines as Mr. Dibb's testimony showed their

24 relevance today. We can put those together and have them ready to offer

25 from the Bench. We'll certainly let our friends know, but I just want to

Page 16392

1 let you know that that is an offer that will be coming based on the

2 examination that we had with this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: But has the collection been already circulated as

4 such amongst the --

5 MR. THAYER: It's in e-court. They have the following 65 ter

6 numbers so my friends can look at them at their leisure. They all have

7 French and B/C/S translations already as they were a prior exhibit. Those

8 65 ter numbers are 465, 466, 467, and 468.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that you're giving notice of this. You're

10 not tendering this document today, are you?

11 MR. THAYER: I think at this point, Your Honour, it's probably

12 futile.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think they need to have -- I suppose each one of

14 the Defence team has been taken by surprise like we have and -- yes.

15 MR. JOSSE: I am taken by surprise, and I'm surprised at the way

16 my learned friend is going about this frankly. As he is at pains to point

17 out, rightly on occasions, there is reasonably good channels of

18 communication between the parties in this case. And I'm sorry for putting

19 it like this, but he could have had the courtesy to inform us of this in

20 advance so that he would have had some idea what our response would have

21 been. So at this particular juncture, we are certainly not in a position

22 to agree.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm going to put a stop to it here now.

24 Mr. Ostojic, please.

25 MR. THAYER: It's an invitation.

Page 16393

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, please sit down. We'll deal with this

2 if ever you table an oral or written motion after having given time to the

3 Defence teams to ponder about it and come to a conclusion. But we

4 shouldn't lose -- waste more time on it now.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So we stick to the documents that he mentioned,

7 Mr. Thayer mentioned earlier. I haven't got the numbers in front of me.

8 MR. THAYER: They are --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. Any objections? Mr. Josse?

10 MR. JOSSE: Well, the two newspaper articles, we would rather were

11 adjourned until such time as this full collection is put before us. Your

12 Honour, we recall that the Trial Chamber has had some reservations in the

13 past about the admission of newspaper articles, and of course this can

14 open a rather large potential Pandora's box, and in our submission, the

15 matter would be better left to consider whether --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But these newspapers or reports were used with this

17 witness. So I think one can isolate them from the rest, from the would-be

18 collection that Mr. Thayer was referring to and which are pleasures yet to

19 come.

20 MR. JOSSE: I have nothing more to say about that, then.

21 JUDGE KWON: If I can put a question to Mr. Josse, whether he can

22 see a distinction between these two situations, one newspaper is a hearsay

23 for the truth of the content of it, and the other as a non-hearsay for the

24 proof of a certain article that appeared in that item.

25 MR. JOSSE: Well, of course, I see that distinction. I've two

Page 16394

1 observations. The first is if a newspaper article is only going in for

2 the latter purpose, for the witness's reaction or to explain other

3 evidence the witness might have given, then that really does need to be

4 stated at the time in my submission, so the parties know where they stand

5 so far as that is concerned because unless it's stated at the time, the

6 matter is unclear and unclear when we come to make our final submissions

7 in this particular case.

8 My second comment in relation to these newspaper articles in

9 general is of course this witness had no knowledge of either of these

10 articles and nor frankly did they jog his memory to any great degree, and

11 of course, it does really rather open the floodgates for newspaper galore

12 to be introduced to witnesses in the way my learned friend has done in

13 re-examination. Those are my observations, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse. Any further -- yes,

15 Mr. Ostojic?

16 MR. OSTOJIC: I would join my learned friend Mr. Josse in

17 objecting to the newspaper articles, but I hope that this criminal court

18 doesn't want to try the case on newspaper articles. This in particular is

19 a witness who had some rather insightful views and was involved in some

20 very important meetings, as we will see, with other witnesses that come

21 in.

22 I would hope that my learned friend would invite us and say we'll

23 share the collection of all the out going and in going cable material that

24 we have in our possession from both the Serb side as well as the Muslim

25 side. We haven't heard that offer, but we see that they do have from time

Page 16395

1 to time additional documents which don't have or bear the 65 ter number

2 which was this one from Mr. Smith. I think it's more important for this

3 Court to look at the facts as they existed from the principal parties than

4 from what political or lobbyists were trying to convey to the media at

5 that time. I would strongly urge that the Court reject these articles

6 specifically given that Mr. Dibb did not acknowledge that he read them,

7 that he relied on them, or even knew about it based on both the direct and

8 the cross-examinations that were conducted. Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic. Mr. Thayer or any other

10 Defence team wishes to contribute? No, Mr. Thayer?

11 MR. JOSSE: Sorry. Just before my learned friend replies could I

12 ask, is he seeking to put in the Smith document at this stage?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer?

14 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour, I think it's relevant to a specific

15 issue that the Defence raised very consistently during their

16 cross-examination. It wasn't something that we had anticipated putting

17 in, but to the extent that we've heard a lot of examination about the

18 level of knowledge of these reports, for the same reason that these press

19 articles are relevant because in fact this witness did say, yes this is

20 the type of information that we were hearing. Yes, I remember the

21 international press was all over this issue, they were reporting it from

22 very early on and then consistently thereafter. The witness's testimony

23 in fact was very clear on that issue, and the relevance of these articles,

24 and I would submit the other articles that we've told our friends about,

25 is clear. So I would offer this UN document to go to that specific issue

Page 16396

1 that the Defence raised.

2 Now, if it doesn't come in now, I'll make the decision whether

3 it's something that General Smith may speak about and if -- and we'll just

4 have to cross that bridge, but it's been raised by the -- by my friends, I

5 don't see what the excitement is about. It's an issue that they went

6 into, and it's an issue that is dealt with in the articles and in the memo

7 itself. It's crystal clear that they are discussing reports of atrocities

8 and murders and rapes and deportations.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Josse.

10 MR. JOSSE: Could I address the Court on that document

11 specifically if I may? I find it surprising in the extreme that that

12 document was not on the 65 ter list. I am aware of the Trial Chamber's

13 rulings in relation to the ability to put documents in in re-examination,

14 and I certainly don't want to go behind that or revisit that particular

15 issue but, Your Honour, the relevance of this issue, the issue as to the

16 state of knowledge of UNPROFOR people at the time of the Zepa events, was

17 gone into to some extent with Mr. Joseph, and in particular Judge Prost

18 asked a question which alerted us to the importance of the issue and that

19 is one of the reasons why we explored it with this particular witness.

20 Now, Your Honour, my learned friend chose not to. It would be

21 churlish and absurd of me to suggest that document, the Smith document, is

22 not relevant to your considerations, and I don't say that for one moment

23 but what I do say, yet again, is it is rather extraordinary that it wasn't

24 on the list and the way it's now being used.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse. So let's go through the

Page 16397

1 documents one by one. The first one is P2575. Any objection to that? It

2 is admitted. Now, then we have the two press articles, P -- correct me if

3 I'm wrong, P467 and P466, correct? And these are being objected to by at

4 least two Defence teams. One moment, please.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So these two, having discussed amongst ourselves the

7 unanimous position is that since they have been used with this witness,

8 they are to be admitted and then the same applies to the Rupert Smith

9 document, which doesn't have, regrettably doesn't have a 65 ter number, as

10 rightly pointed out by Mr. Josse. Its reference ERN number is R 0033695

11 to 698, both numbers included.

12 Now, let's start with Madam Fauveau. Do you have any documents

13 that you wish to tender?

14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Josse?

16 MR. JOSSE: There are three in a list that's just been

17 distributed, Your Honour. 6D164 which was a report from Colonel Baxter,

18 6D166 which was the order from Mladic of the 30th of July of 1995. That

19 translation of which has been received today, I can tell the Trial

20 Chamber. And the third document, I'm in the Chamber and the registrar's

21 hands as to how to cope with this, that's 2D125. I'm uncertain whether

22 that's been admitted in whole. If it has, the question is why it hasn't

23 all been translated, of course.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: My information is that it has been admitted with

25 previous witness Trivic.

Page 16398

1 MR. JOSSE: Trivic, he's not protected, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, with Trivic. That's the information. Madam

3 Registrar will check will whether it was admitted in toto or what's the

4 question. However, as you indicated, when you made use of this document,

5 there are still three pages that remain -- the three pages that you made

6 use of remain untranslated.

7 MR. JOSSE: Well, they do, Your Honour, and I suspect large parts

8 of it remain untranslated. I'm the last person to ask for unnecessary

9 translation work. We only need those three pages translated. I'm

10 entirely in the Chamber's hands as to what to seek -- what should now

11 happen.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse. Any objections from any of

13 the Defence teams?

14 MR. JOSSE: One others observation, just a -- I said 6D164 at line

15 9 of page 38. It says 166. I'm sure that will be corrected in due

16 course.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Any objections from anyone?

18 Mr. Thayer?

19 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So the first one is being admitted, is being marked

21 for identification because we still don't have a B/C/S translation of it.

22 Is that correct, Mr. Josse?

23 MR. JOSSE: We -- the first one is in English, Your Honour. The

24 second document we have a translation today, and it's the third one, I beg

25 your pardon, the Trivic diary we don't have a translation of.

Page 16399

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But the first one we do have because the

2 original is in English.

3 MR. JOSSE: Correct.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But we don't have a B/C/S version of it.

5 MR. JOSSE: We don't need a B/C/S translation, and indeed we won't

6 be provided one. The translation service will not provide us with such a

7 translation, I'm afraid.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So that is admitted, 6D166 is admitted,

9 translation has arrived. And 2D125, if these three pages, as I

10 understand, have already been admitted with previous witness Trivic, there

11 is no point in admitting them again. Unless you specifically ask to

12 select them and have them admitted separately, but I don't think --

13 MR. JOSSE: No, I'm not asking for that. I repeat the issue of

14 the translation of the whole of that document is something I'll discuss

15 with the learned registrar if I may.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So there is no point in marking anything

17 for identification. We are just making an order for these three pages to

18 be translated, and they will of course form an integral part of what is

19 already Exhibit 2D125. Okay.

20 Having said that, Mr. Haynes, I think we might as well take the

21 break now. We've still got three or four minutes for it.

22 MR. HAYNES: Certainly. And particularly given, as I understand

23 it from others behind me, that there are preliminary matters that they

24 wish to raise. I don't suppose there is even time to raise them in the

25 next two minutes.

Page 16400

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Who wishes to raise preliminaries? Yes,

2 Mr. Bourgon? Can you dispose of this in three minutes or not?

3 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I would prefer to have a few minutes

4 simply to discuss with my colleagues so that we do have a common position

5 rather than to go with only three teams, but this can be done very shortly

6 at the beginning of the next session in a matter of ten minutes at the

7 most and then we can put it to rest while the witness continues his

8 testimony. Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we'll have a -- do you need more time

10 than the 25 minutes? That should be more than enough. Okay.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The number that will be given to the Rupert Smith

13 document is PIC 181.

14 25 minutes.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we go into closed session?

18 Yes, Mr. Bourgon. Let's go into closed session, please.

19 [Closed session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 Pages 16401-16447 redacted. Closed session















Page 16448

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of

8 October, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.