1 Tuesday, 20 November 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All the accused are here. From the
10 Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Ostojic. Prosecution it's
11 Mr. McCloskey.
12 So I think we can start. Are there any preliminaries? No. This
13 guy hasn't got any protective measures? No?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: He does need a caution, though, I'm sorry,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Janjic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal, to this trial.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You are going to give evidence. Our rules require
23 that before you start your testimony, you make a solemn declaration that
24 you will be testifying the truth. The text of this solemn declaration,
25 which is equivalent to an oath is being handed to you. Please read it out
1 aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: MILE JANJIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Janjic. Please make yourself
7 comfortable. Have a seat.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: The procedure here is quite simple and
10 uncomplicated. Mr. McCloskey will ask you a series of questions and then
11 he will be followed by the various Defence teams. If we all cooperate,
12 and that includes you by keeping your answers as concise and as to the
13 point as possible, you have a good chance of finishing your testimony
15 But before you start giving evidence, I would like to draw your
16 attention to a matter that is of concern to you. You lived through these
17 events, some of which are the subject matter of this indictment, and there
18 is a possibility, however remote or unlikely it might be, that in the
19 course of the examination-in-chief and cross-examination, questions may be
20 put to you which, if you answer truthfully, could expose you possibly to
21 criminal proceedings. Now, as in many, if not all, criminal jurisdictions
22 throughout the world, we also have a provision in our rules which gives
23 you a limited right to ask to be exempted from answering such questions if
24 they are put to you. It's not an absolute right, in the sense that we can
25 accede to your request and grant you an exemption, or we can simply
1 disagree with you and order you to answer such questions.
2 If we choose the latter, that is, if we order to you answer such
3 questions, then you have a further right. Provided that your answers to
4 such questions are truthful, then whatever you say in answering such
5 questions cannot be used against you and will not be made use of in any
6 subsequent proceedings that there could possibly be. As I said, I am
7 alerting you to these rights that you have under the rules, not because
8 I'm expecting such questions but because such questions could be put to
9 you, and then you would need to know what your rights are. All right?
10 Have I made myself clear enough?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely clear.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Janjic. He's all yours,
13 Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President and everyone, good
15 morning, Your Honours.
16 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Janjic. Can you first of all tell us your full
18 name for the record?
19 A. Mile Janjic.
20 Q. And how old are you?
21 A. I was born in 1971.
22 Q. And what is your current occupation?
23 A. Labourer.
24 Q. And what country do you currently live in?
25 A. I currently live in Austria, and work there.
1 Q. All right. And did you testify in the Blagojevic case in May 2004
2 as a --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And was that as a Defence witness called by Mr. Karnavas?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And have you had a chance to listen to the audio of your testimony
7 in the last couple of days?
8 A. After that date, yes, but only last Sunday, two days ago.
9 Q. Okay. And did you also give a statement to the BiH state
10 prosecutor on February of this year?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you have a chance yesterday to see a transcript in your
13 language of that interview?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, when you listened to your testimony, did you find any areas
16 that you wished to clarify with me, that we went over?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Besides those clarifications which I will go over, if you
19 were asked those same questions today, would your answers be the same?
20 A. I believe they would, yes.
21 Q. And did you testify truthfully in that prior trial?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And do you stand by your testimony?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. As I had mentioned to you, I'll read a summary of that
1 testimony. Then we'll go over the clarifications. But as I -- as I'm
2 reading the summary, if you found that I've made a mistake or there is
3 something you want to change, feel free to interrupt me. I know we've
4 gone over this once before, but sometimes translations change or you may
5 have thought about something. Okay?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. In July 1995, Mr. Janjic was a member of the Bratunac
8 Brigade military police. In the period leading up to the fall of
9 Srebrenica, on 11 July, Mr. Janjic was on duty engaged in his normal
10 military police tasks. On 11 July 1995, late in the afternoon, just
11 before dark, about 10 to 15 members of his military police unit were
12 assembled by Momir Nikolic and told to go to the Hotel Fontana.
13 Mr. Janjic did this and met with persons identifying themselves as
14 the personal security for General Mladic, and those people assigned his
15 group of Bratunac MPs to provide security around the outside of the Hotel
16 Fontana. Later that evening, after negotiations were held at the hotel,
17 Mladic's security people assigned Mr. Janjic and other Bratunac Brigade
18 MPs to provide security for rooms upstairs in the hotel. Mr. Janjic and
19 other Bratunac Brigade MPs provided security all night and left in the
20 morning of the 12th and reported back to the military police building.
21 At the military police building on the morning of 12 July,
22 Mr. Janjic saw Mirko Jankovic, the commander of his unit, and his deputy,
23 Mile Petrovic. Mirko Jankovic told him that Momir Nikolic would be
24 calling and giving him a task. Shortly thereafter, someone came into the
25 room and stated that Momir Nikolic called and stated that the military
1 police should go to Zuti Most. Mirko Jankovic then told the ten or 15 MPs
2 gathered there to go to Zuti Most.
3 Mr. Janjic went with the group of MPs, and when they arrived at
4 Zuti Most, they met Momir Nikolic. Momir Nikolic told them to move
5 towards Potocari, that he would catch up with them there.
6 About ten minutes later, when the group had reached Potocari --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. McCloskey. Yes, Ms. Nikolic?
8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I am really doing this hesitatingly.
9 However, we never received the summary of the statement. The 92 ter
10 summary. I've double checked this rather than interrupt at the outset,
11 but we haven't received it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that the position with all the other Defence
13 teams? I see everyone nodding. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was working on it up until the last minute this
15 morning. It's just a summary.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we move? I can understand your -- but shall
17 we move, notwithstanding? Okay. Let's move.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't believe there is a requirement either.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but that's not the point, you know.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let me see where I left off.
21 Momir Nikolic told them to move towards Potocari and that he would
22 catch up with them. About ten minutes later, when the group had reached
23 Potocari, Momir Nikolic met the group and told Mile Janjic specifically
24 that his task that day would be to assist Colonel Jankovic. Mr. Janjic
25 did not know who Colonel Jankovic was. Momir Nikolic then pointed out
1 Colonel Jankovic standing nearby. Mr. Janjic then walked over to Colonel
2 Jankovic and reported to him. Colonel Jankovic told him that buses and
3 trucks would be arriving to take the Muslim civilians from Potocari to
4 Kladanj. Colonel Jankovic said that it would be his job, meaning Colonel
5 Jankovic's, to count the number of Muslims transported out of Potocari and
6 that it would be Janjic's job to help him do this and that more military
7 police would be available to assist in this process.
8 Colonel Jankovic told this to Mr. Janjic in the morning, before
9 any buses or trucks had arrived. Mr. Janjic and Colonel Jankovic were
10 about 100 metres towards Bratunac from a large gathering of Muslims.
11 Mr. Janjic carried out this task all day, the 12th of July, and all the
12 next day, the 13th of July. On the first day, he counted 9.000 and
13 several hundred Muslim women and children leaving Potocari. A member of
14 the civilian police named Milisav Ilic was also involved in counting
16 During these two days, Mr. Janjic did not see any Muslims
17 assaulted or abused in any way. Mr. Janjic did see men separated from
18 their families. The process of separating men from their families began
19 when the first people were boarding the buses on 12 July. Officers who
20 Janjic did not know were issuing orders to uniformed men that Janjic did
21 not know to separate the men from their families. These uniformed men
22 identified themselves to Janjic as being from the specials, and Janjic
23 knew this was an abbreviation for the Special Police unit that was under
24 the MUP.
25 Mr. Janjic noticed that the separated men were being taken to the
1 other side of the street. He asked one of the Special Police why this was
2 happening, and he was told that it was on the orders of General Mladic.
3 During the day, Mr. Janjic noticed Momir Nikolic was present in Potocari
4 and saw him talking to members of the Special Police. Mr. Janjic also saw
5 General Krstic and his entourage in Potocari the first day as well as
6 General Mladic.
7 Later in the afternoon, buses arrived and the men who had been
8 separated were put on those buses and driven off in the direction of
9 Bratunac. This occurred farther down from the area where the women and
10 children were getting on the buses. Colonel Jankovic told Mr. Janjic to
11 count these separated men as well as the women and children. Mr. Janjic
12 stated that between 10 and 15 buses were loaded with men that day, the
13 12th of July. Mr. Janjic does not recall now the exact number of men that
14 were placed on each bus on the 12th but he does remember it was over 50
15 persons per bus. Mr. Janjic did not give an estimate of the number of men
16 separated on the 13th because the buses came in several rounds and he
17 could not recall how many buses actually transported Muslim men out of
18 Potocari that day.
19 The transportation of people continued on the 12th until about
20 dusk and Colonel Jankovic was present in the area the entire day.
21 In the late afternoon, Colonel Jankovic told Mr. Janjic that the
22 same work would continue the next day. Near the end of the work that day
23 in Potocari, Momir Nikolic came by and ordered Janjic and others to report
24 to the outside of the military police building in Bratunac when the job
25 was finished.
1 So after the evacuation ended for the day, Mr. Janjic and other
2 Bratunac Brigade MPs went back to Bratunac and reported to the building of
3 the military police. Mr. Janjic and the other MPs were ordered to
4 continue evening security detail at the Hotel Fontana. Mr. Janjic and
5 other MPs walked across town to the Hotel Fontana and began the same
6 security job they had done the night before.
7 The next morning, they walked back to the military police building
8 and received the assignments from Momir Nikolic to go back to Potocari and
9 carry on the work from the previous day.
10 When Mr. Janjic returned to Potocari, he saw the same group of
11 Special Police as the previous day. Shortly after he arrived in Potocari,
12 more buses and trucks arrived and Colonel Jankovic arrived as well. And
13 they all continued the work they had done the previous day, counting the
14 people moving out from Potocari.
15 Colonel Jankovic did not give him any new orders, but at one point
16 Colonel Jankovic came over and told them to pay more attention to the
17 counting. The work on July 13th continued as it had the previous day.
18 Men were separated from their families and transported towards Bratunac.
19 Bratunac MPs went with some of those buses and returned shortly after
20 leaving. Mr. Janjic asked one of his colleagues why he had returned so
21 quickly. His colleague told him that the Muslim men were taken to the
22 school in Bratunac and were being guarded there. Mr. Janjic found this
23 strange and asked a Special Police officer what was happening and Janjic
24 was told that the task was to finish and close the Potocari check-point as
25 soon as possible and that there were not enough vehicles to carry all the
1 men onward but that other vehicles would come for them shortly.
2 On the 13th, Momir Nikolic came and went as he had the day before
3 and Colonel Jankovic stayed in Potocari the entire day.
4 Near the end of the day, on the 13th, Colonel Jankovic ordered
5 Janjic and others to take a vehicle in the direction of Srebrenica, and if
6 they found any Muslims, to tell them to come to Potocari and that vehicles
7 would come and take them to Kladanj. Colonel Jankovic told Janjic to tell
8 the people not to panic and that everything would be all right.
9 Mr. Janjic carried out that order near dusk that day. He came
10 across a couple of dozen Muslims, mostly women, and told them to go to
11 Potocari so they could be taken on to Kladanj with the others. Mr. Janjic
12 returned from the area of Srebrenica to Potocari where he saw Momir
13 Nikolic. Momir Nikolic told him and the other Bratunac MPs to report to
14 the front of the military police building. Mr. Janjic and the others did
15 so, where they again met with Momir Nikolic. Momir Nikolic told them to
16 go into town and help secure the Muslims detained in the schools and on
17 the vehicles near the school.
18 Mr. Janjic and other Bratunac Brigade MPs stayed up all night in
19 Bratunac guarding buses full of Muslim men. At one point, he heard a man
20 shouting from the direction of the school and it sounded like he was
21 putting up resistance. Shortly after that, he heard automatic gunfire and
22 the shouting stopped. Mr. Janjic did not see anyone hurt or killed in
23 Bratunac that night. During the night, between about 10.00 p.m. to
24 midnight, Momir Nikolic came by and told them to continue working.
25 On the morning of the 14th, soldiers arrived at this location.
1 They were wearing black overalls and black bandanas and some of them had
2 dogs. Some of these men got on to the buses and the buses began leaving.
3 When all the buses left the area, Mr. Janjic went home and got some rest.
4 While the witness was in Potocari, he saw that the Muslim
5 civilians were given some food. The witness did not receive any food
6 while he was in Potocari on the 12th and 13th. During the night of 13
7 July and the morning of 14th July, Mr. Janjic and his colleague from the
8 MPs provided some water and bread to some of the Muslims on a bus.
9 That's the end of the summary.
10 Q. Is that correct, according to your memory?
11 A. I would have a couple of corrections. Perhaps I could have had
12 something to just note a few things down. If I understood it correctly, I
13 don't know if that was correctly interpreted, it said, "We left after the
14 first evening of security." It says, "Around noon they went to the
15 police," and then it continues, "In the morning they returned to the
17 Q. Can you clarify what you -- what you actually remember happening
18 just so we understand, on that point?
19 A. In the morning, when it got light, we left in the direction of the
20 police and everything else I stand by, but it's unclear to me what's being
21 referred to at 12.00, if it was correctly translated.
22 Q. Which morning are -- were you talking about? What day? The
23 morning of which day?
24 A. I'm talking about the morning of the 12th, the first time that I
25 went to the police, the first time that all of this in Potocari was
2 Q. Okay. Thank you.
3 A. I also have some more things, this number 9.000 something, it is
4 said "women and children." That's what I understood. But I would like to
5 add, women, children and men. This figure that was mentioned, 10 to
6 15.000 around the buses at the end of the day, buses that are going in the
7 direction of Bratunac.
8 Q. Okay. Anything else?
9 A. It is unclear to me --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: There is an error on the page 12 line 4, this is
12 10 to 15.000. I don't know, is it about the buses or about people?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope it wasn't buses. I would imagine we are
14 talking about people, but I don't know. I mean, I'm not the one to
15 clarify that. Yes, Mr. McCloskey, you can handle this.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. Were you talking about 10 to 15.000 people or buses?
18 A. Buses. 10, 15 buses, not thousand.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right that explains it. So there were no
20 thousands involved. All right. Thank you, Mr. Janjic.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Janjic, I want to go over three things, clarifications,
23 that I think we had talked about before, and the first one can be found on
24 the transcript of the previous trial on page 9852 --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. McCloskey, because when
1 Mr. Zivanovic intervened, the witness was about to answer a question that
2 you had put, and so let's go back. The witness had just explained about
3 these 10 to 15 buses at the end of the day, buses that were going in the
4 direction of Bratunac. And then you asked him, "Okay. Anything else?"
5 And then he said, "It is unclear to me" -- and that's where he was
6 interrupted. If he could finish that sentence, that answer, yes,
7 Mr. Janjic?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, we got interrupted.
9 Q. Was there something else you wanted to explain? Pardon me.
10 A. The detail was unclear to me from the second day that you
11 mentioned. This is the 13th. About the buses that we are talking about,
12 that at one point the buses returned quickly, that they went to Bratunac,
13 to the school, that I learned from my colleagues. I understood that the
14 colleagues were escorting the buses to the Bratunac school and that I
15 asked colleagues or I asked the policemen from the Special Police where
16 they were going, to which I would say that my colleagues together with
17 those members of the Special Police were escorting the buses to the school
18 in Bratunac. This is all that I wanted.
19 Q. And when you say colleagues, who do you mean?
20 A. When I refer to colleagues I mean members of the military police.
21 This is how I frequently referred to them, that they were together in
22 coordinated action, that they are being escorted by the military police
23 and the Special Police that happened to be in in those few days at that
25 Q. Okay. And when you say escorted do you mean escorted by being
1 inside the bus or by escorting from the outside?
2 A. This was the usual practice, not only with the men. It was the
3 usual practice with all, including buses that took away women. On the
4 first day and the second day, that the army always well, call them
5 soldiers or military police or the police, the Special Police that
6 happened to be there involved at that moment, always escorted those buses.
7 Inside would be one or two mostly in the front, in the immediate vicinity
8 of the driver of the bus.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you for that clarification.
10 Anything else from the summary that you wanted to clarify?
11 A. I don't think so.
12 Q. Okay. Now, let's go over to a couple of the clarifications or
13 changes that we had talked about prior to court. And the first is on page
14 9852, beginning lines 12 -- excuse me, page 9808, beginning lines 1
15 through 3. And that segment, you testified that Momir Nikolic had told
16 you that on the night of the 13th, your group would work until midnight
17 and then the work would be over. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Did Momir Nikolic actually tell you that the work would be
20 over at midnight?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you read in your statement to the state prosecutor on that
23 same subject? And do you remember what you said to the state prosecutor?
24 A. Yes. I did read that. I didn't really understand him. I
25 understood him to say that the job Momir said would be finished, he
1 promised that the job would be finished at midnight, that the buses would
2 come, that those men would go. I understood him to say that that would be
3 over at midnight, but it wasn't over at midnight. It was over only on the
4 following day in the morning.
5 So there was a mistake there. I don't know if I didn't hear him
6 correctly or if it wasn't translated, but in any case it was over in the
7 morning and not at midnight. It was promised, though, that this would be
8 finished in the course of the night, at midnight, though.
9 Q. All right. And let's go to another correction and it's on page
10 9852, beginning line 12, and at the testimony, at the Blagojevic trial,
11 you had stated that you did not know about men at the Bratunac stadium on
12 the 13th of July, and in your interview with the state court, you did
13 provide information about the stadium. Can you explain that, if you
15 A. Yes. From what I recall of those preparations for the Blagojevic
16 trial, Mr. Mike Karnavas asked during the proofing for me to say or speak
17 about only what I saw, about where I was, and what I'm sure about, not to
18 discuss things that I had heard. In the sense that all of that would be
19 just getting away from the topic. So just to state the facts, where I
20 was, what I saw, who I talked about. I wasn't there, though. I didn't
21 see it. But I did hear about it, though. And I understood that I could
22 not really say that then. I didn't have the opportunity. Just like this
23 time some things will also be left unsaid. It will always be like that.
24 Q. Okay. And one more clarification and on page 9814, beginning line
25 8, you testified that some soldiers arrived in Bratunac on the morning and
1 that you did not know who they were. But it appears in your statement to
2 the state prosecutor, you identified those people. Which is -- which is
4 A. I think that both are correct, if we take the first thing, I
5 didn't know them but I stand behind the fact that I don't know who they
6 are. But then again there was speculation that they maybe looked like
7 those members of the Special Police. That was how we called them, the
8 real Special Police members. We had two names for that formation
9 actually. Perhaps what was dropped out was that they resembled or they
10 looked like that to me.
11 Q. Okay. You mentioned you had two names for the Special Police.
12 Can you tell us what those names were?
13 A. At that time, in all the events, we all knew that the Special
14 Police existed, the Special Police, and this Special Police, you know, I
15 can give you my opinion, the opinion of many. You know, it's a quite
16 positive opinion about their professionalism and all. There was a lot of
17 praise for them. And we also knew about the existence of those so-called
18 deserter formations, this is what we called them, that were joined on to
19 the regular forces of that honourable Special Police.
20 Q. Okay. Well, then, tell us, you said you saw men being separated
21 when the people first started getting on the bus. Who was doing the
23 A. You know, there was the presence of the Special Police there.
24 Well, let us find some way to call them the original Special Police.
25 There were fewer, fewer of them. And also there were large groups of that
1 what we would call the deserter detachments of the Special Police, you
2 know, that were joined on to these other forces, the deserters if I can
3 call them that, who were within the Special Police.
4 Q. Okay. But who, if you know, was doing the separation of men from
5 their families?
6 A. You know, this other group, those deserters from the Special
7 Police, who were there, of course, as part of the regular Special Police.
8 Q. I know, but we need you to tell us who was doing the separation,
9 just in particular, so it's clear on the record.
10 A. Yes, of course. Not to go by groups or formations, so the answer
11 would be the Special Police.
12 Q. Okay. Did you see members of the deserter unit actually
13 physically separating the men from their families?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did you know the nickname of one of the supervisors of the
16 Special Police that was present in Potocari?
17 A. Yes. I knew one of their commanders. I don't know what -- if it
18 was a platoon, a company, a squad, from some earlier events in 1992. I
19 didn't have the opportunity in my previous appearance here in the Tribunal
20 to -- I simply didn't have the opportunity and I wasn't sure and I'm not
21 sure now. I don't know the first name, I don't know the last name, I know
22 the nickname. Maybe that's part of the name of the person under the name
23 of Mane or Manic. That could be the nickname or the last name. I cannot
24 really guarantee about that.
25 Q. Did you give this information about Mane to the state prosecutor
1 back in February?
2 A. Yes. But from what I was able to read yesterday, it's not
3 anywhere there, but I'm sure. I don't know why it's not included. I'm
4 sure that during the trial from June, of this year, that question was put
5 in the hearing, it was answered. Then, in February, and also in the
6 Tribunal, a certain photograph of that person was shown, one photograph.
7 Q. Okay. I haven't asked you about your -- you testified in a trial
8 this year in Bosnia; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. About these same events?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And we haven't been able to show you a transcript or an audio of
13 that trial, have we?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. When -- did the state prosecutor show you a picture of a
16 person when you told him you remembered a nickname Mane?
17 A. The nickname Mane or Manic, and I was shown a photograph by him.
18 I already said that.
19 Q. And did you recognise the person in the photograph?
20 A. I did. Also because of the fact that I know that person from way
21 back 1992, he also, you know, came to my house a couple of times. He was
22 the commander, at that time, too, of some so-called special unit, I don't
23 know. It was also the Special Police, it was described as a unit during
24 the fall of Kravica.
25 They were sent from the Bijeljina direction to help out the
1 Serbian people in Kravica. They spent the time there from before the new
2 year until the very fall of Kravica, the 7th of July -- no, the 7th of
3 January, 1993. You know, our contact was for over seven days, ten or more
5 Q. So where were you living in that period of late 1992 and 1993 when
6 you had contact with this person you recognised?
7 A. You know, before 1992, then the whole of 1992, until Christmas,
8 the 7th of January until the entry of those bloodthirsty Muslim groups
9 into Kravica, the burning of my village. That is when I go to Bratunac.
10 Q. Okay. Now, did I show you a -- the same picture you'd been shown
11 by the state prosecutor?
12 A. Well, you've said you have -- you had more photographs but you
13 showed me just one, but it just happened by chance that it was the same
14 one. Although you didn't talk about the same person. You said, "Out of a
15 number of photographs, I'm going to show you one."
16 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at that photograph, and see what you
17 think. It's 65 ter number 1936, and it will be in Sanction just so we
18 don't have any of the information on the other exhibit.
19 It's at page 60 in e-court.
20 Has that picture come up on your screen?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And do you recognise -- do you recognise the person
23 depicted in that picture?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who is that?
1 A. You know, that is the person that we were talking about a bit
2 earlier with the nickname, or the name.
3 Q. Okay. And where did you see him on -- or excuse me, when did you
4 first see him?
5 A. Out of those two dates, I cannot really guarantee which one it was
6 or if I saw him on both those dates. I saw him on several occasions and
7 always at the same place, mostly at the exit in front of that group of
8 Muslims at the very ramp. I am just using that vocabulary, it's not
9 literally a ramp. It's just like a police tape in red and white. It's
10 like an imagined ramp where the Muslims were going down in groups, going
11 to the buses.
12 Q. And what was he doing?
13 A. I think that he was helping for everything, to flow smoothly,
14 according to my aspect, to prevent a stampede from happening, it was a
15 large group of people, it was impossible to load them all into vehicles.
16 Well, that was my conclusion. I didn't have any personal contact with him
17 other than just a brief greeting.
18 Q. Did you see Momir Nikolic talking to him ever?
19 A. No. Momir -- I didn't see any of the officers issuing any orders
20 to him or anything. I really couldn't say.
21 Q. Okay. Now, let me try to clarify some of the numbers, and I know
22 this can be difficult but let's talk about the first day, and I'm just
23 talking about the men, the number of buses you saw separated men get on.
24 Today, can you give us your best estimate of the number of buses you saw
25 men, separated men, get on on that first day, the 12th of July?
1 A. What I remember is what I've said, the number, I really couldn't
2 change that now. It's difficult to make an estimate. This is a group of
3 10, 15, 11, 9, scores of buses, if I can put it that way.
4 Q. Okay. And you testified last time, as we know from the summary,
5 that it was over 50 men on each bus. Can you give us any better estimate
6 than that?
7 A. Well, we could calculate that on our own. If it's ten buses, then
8 times 50, or over 50 people, probably 70 most likely, because I remember
9 that from the samples taken earlier on the 12th in the morning, in a
10 period of one and a half hours or two hours of counting, in the buses,
11 where the samples were taken, there were no men, I think there were just
12 women, and if by the volume of the body we take that and each one of them
13 had some kind of luggage, and then I could really estimate that you would
14 have the same number of men as -- as the number of women seated, if you
15 understand me.
16 Q. Can you explain briefly what you just started to say, that you
17 were taking in the morning, you were sampling by counting each person on
18 the bus. Can you explain how you did that and how it changed?
19 A. The first order, that first contact with Colonel Jankovic was to
20 count persons being loaded into the vehicles, I'm talking of buses, trucks
21 and the rest, into the vehicles. And he said that that assignment needed
22 several people, that he was going to ask Nikolic to include more police
23 officers, colleagues, for that assignment. We were literally going into
24 the buses, in the majority of the cases, I'm thinking of the colleagues,
25 they would be standing at the front and the back door; they were counting,
1 adding up the numbers, given to me, and I was the one who was recording
2 them. I myself was also going inside, when I didn't manage to count
3 because it was getting more and more crowded, I would even enter the bus
4 and try to count in order to have an as precise figure as possible because
5 I understood that or I took that assignment very seriously.
6 Q. So counting those individuals, did that change later, where you
7 didn't count individuals?
8 A. Yes. That changed when the numbers of buses increased, there was
9 a terrible crowd there and it became particularly complicated and
10 compounded by the separation of men from women, was there an ever
11 increasing crowd because there was an increasing number of the police
12 present, they came in ever-greater numbers. As a result of that, I
13 suggested to Colonel Jankovic, because I concluded based on my previous
14 experience that the numbers were more or less the same, that we apply the
15 method of sampling. So we would actually count on the basis of the number
16 of vehicles not of individuals, and later on, in due time, we would arrive
17 at the number of individuals through the number of vehicles recorded.
18 Q. Okay. You mentioned the term or the word -- the number 70. How
19 did you reach that number in response to my question about men?
20 A. This is not a precise number. I'm not sure. But when I have in
21 mind those large trucks, the numbers were 170, but it was mostly women and
22 children who were boarded on to such large trucks. But I stand by the
23 numbers concerning the buses. It was 70 and not 50.
24 Q. And do you know how many men or how many passengers those buses
25 were designed for, to actually sit in?
1 A. These were classical buses with some 52 to 54 seats. These were
2 not double deckers, but the regular ones, numbering 52 to 54 seats.
3 Therefore, you had the seats and you had the aisles, and of course, it's
4 from 15 to 20 persons who could fit there, I'm sure.
5 Q. When you saw the buses filled with only men, were there people
6 standing in the aisles?
7 A. Yes. I had to see that because I was counting buses one by one,
8 but I was quite close to the buses.
9 Q. And how many of the buses, roughly, had men actually standing in
10 the aisles?
11 A. If I understand your question in how many -- how many of the
12 buses, I would say all of the buses, if that was the question.
13 Q. Yes, it was. Thank you. Okay. Now, let's go to the 13th. Can
14 you give us a -- you weren't -- at your trial testimony, according to the
15 summary, you had a difficulty giving an estimate. Let me ask you this
16 question: Based on what you saw on the 13th, well, were men separated on
17 the 13th as well?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And can you tell us in your view was it more men or less men that
20 were separate -- than the 12th of July?
21 A. If I had the time, I would substantiate it with facts because we
22 have the description where the men were on the first day. There was the
23 white house on the right-hand side, a yard full of people and in addition
24 to that, these 10 to 15 buses were fully boarded. That's what was
25 recorded. For the second day, I don't know if there is the record of
1 that. I described the white house, the yard, and the section of the road
2 toward Bratunac. So looking at the right road side of the road to
3 Bratunac and then also the meadow across from there. So by far more.
4 Q. So on the 13th, it was by far more than on the 12th, separated
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you get -- can you tell us any closer, how much more? Was it
8 twice as much, three times as much, four times as much? Any -- what would
9 be your best estimate, if you can estimate? I don't want to you
11 A. Yes. That is speculation now, but in my estimate, as an
12 eyewitness, certainly two or three times more.
13 Q. Okay. At the time of this, did you know a Mr. Borovcanin?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how did you know him? What was his full name, according to
16 your knowledge?
17 A. I lived in Bratunac. One could say that I lived in the immediate
18 vicinity of the Bratunac SUP. I know about Ljubisa Borovcanin, as the
19 commander of our SUP. I don't want to go into that structure of
20 commanders, chiefs, and the top leadership of the SUP, but I know that in
21 Bratunac, he was deemed an honourable man, an uncorrupted police officer,
22 and I'm speaking about the period preceding all these events.
23 I also know that in a period of time, he was away from Bratunac.
24 The story around the town was that somebody had sold him that deserter
25 detachment, that somebody had given him this thankless task of commanding
1 this unit. Therefore I knew that he was at the top of the special units
2 of MUP.
3 Q. Okay. Did you see him around Bratunac or Potocari on those days
4 from the 11th through the 14th or 15th of July?
5 A. I already said that. I really don't recall seeing him.
6 Q. All right. And another thing I want to clarify from -- well, from
7 your testimony. You mentioned the name of a civilian police officer that
8 was also assigned to count. Who was that?
9 A. A civilian policeman by the name of Milisav Ilic.
10 Q. And did you see who gave him the job to count?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you see him report to anybody or speak to anybody about
13 counting or the job he was doing that day?
14 A. It all boiled down to this brief remark by Colonel Jankovic which
15 I didn't see, but I presumed that they had some sort of contact, some sort
16 of comparing of the figures. They explained what he said and...
17 Q. Can you give us some more detail about that? Because you said you
18 didn't -- you didn't see it. How did you know that, first of all, the
19 civilian police officer -- actually I should use his name, Milisav Ilic,
20 how did you know he was counting like you were?
21 A. I knew that from a previous event. That's to say, in the morning,
22 when I was taking a sample, when I'm -- or when we are counting literally
23 person by person, we were counting person by person, I noticed the
24 presence of Milisav Ilic, I noticed that he was making notes. I don't
25 know whether we came to that idea at the same time, but he also came down
1 to that figure of -- the number of individuals that could be -- that could
2 fit into a bus, and I was under the impression that he never counted the
3 individuals, that from the start he was counting buses. Maybe he had his
4 own average that he used, but he was interested in knowing the sum that I
5 arrived at.
6 Q. Okay. And where does the Colonel Jankovic come into this?
7 A. In that -- that particular dialogue took place much later, perhaps
8 on the following day, when he was telling us, "You should take more care
9 counting because there are some discrepancies." And on the basis of that,
10 I presumed that he may have had a look at his figures, that's what I
11 concluded, and if he said what he said, I believe that to be correct,
13 Q. Okay. We are going to have to put some names on to the "he"s and
14 the "him"s and the "us"s here, so it's very clear for the record. Okay?
15 When Jankovic made this comment to you, who else did he make it to?
16 A. Milisav Ilic.
17 Q. Okay. And so is that the person you're referring to when you say,
18 "He," "His" numbers?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what unit was Milisav Ilic part of?
21 A. Even before the war, he was a member of the MUP of the police. At
22 that point, he worked in the public security station in Bratunac as a
23 policeman. Before the war, he worked in Srebrenica. I suppose that the
24 Srebrenica and Bratunac MUP were merged then, and I know that after the
25 war, he resumed the police duties in Srebrenica. Now I believe he's
2 Q. Okay. Do you remember what he was wearing, what Ilic was wearing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us?
5 A. The blue camouflage police, the way they had. Perhaps I could
6 have a look at the photographs, and then I recall their uniforms during
7 the war, the blue police camouflage uniform.
8 Q. All right. Okay. Now, I want to skip ahead to the point that
9 where we ended in the summary that finally on the morning of the 14th, the
10 buses leave Bratunac and I believe you finally get a chance to get some
11 rest. At some point after that, did you go to Rocevic?
12 A. Following the night on the 13th, on a given date, yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us what you remember about that? When, for example?
14 A. I have never been sure of the date, whether it was the afternoon
15 of the 14th. I know that it was in the late afternoon hours. And it was
16 either the 14th or the 15th. I can't be sure. But in the late afternoon
18 Q. Okay. So what happened in the late afternoon hours?
19 A. I happened to be in front of the police building. I don't know
20 whether somebody informed me of the details. I cannot tell you anything.
21 I happened to be there. A vehicle was already ready there, a Pinzgauer,
22 and the task was that we should board the vehicle. I heard that from a
23 colleague of mine, Slobodan Mijatovic, one of the lower-ranking or the
24 lowest-ranking commanding officers of the police. We were told that we
25 had a mission to accomplish and that we should set off, and we did.
1 Q. And we just need to clarify, do you mean he was as a colleague was
2 a military police from Bratunac?
3 A. Well, one of the lowest-ranking commanding officers of the
4 military police, yes.
5 Q. Okay. And do you recall receiving orders from anyone besides him,
6 to do this?
7 A. I don't think there was anybody else there at that point in time.
8 Q. And who else do you remember going with you in this truck that
10 A. It was a group of six, seven individuals. Four persons excluding
11 myself is -- I really can identify. As for the others, I don't remember
12 them. Let's take the driver, Milovan Mitrovic first. He was the head of
13 the party. Then Slobodan Mijatovic. Then in the back seat behind me,
14 there was Mladen Blagojevic. I know about that. And there were a couple,
15 few colleagues, I can't remember.
16 Q. Okay. And did you know where you were going when you got in this
18 A. No.
19 Q. Where did you go?
20 A. We set off in the direction of Kravica-Konjevic Polje-Zvornik.
21 Q. And then where?
22 A. Without any stops, without any task that was apparent to me or
23 anything by which I could conclude what the purpose of our trip was, we
24 arrived in Zvornik and later on in -- we passed Zvornik, and then later on
25 in a smaller place, and I read the sign post Rocevic or Rocevici, I'm not
1 sure, I know where the place is, we pulled over to the left road side,
2 when facing Zvornik, and switched the engine off.
3 Q. Now, was there a bridge near this place?
4 A. I know from personal knowledge, which has nothing to do with these
5 events, I know that several minutes drive beyond there is the Sepak
6 bridge, which is the bridge where the -- bordering with the Republic of
7 Serbia, across the Drina River.
8 Q. So this road you're on above Zvornik, how would you describe that
9 road? Was it a main road, was it an off -- an off road?
10 A. You mean the road that we were driving along or the road where we
11 pulled over?
12 Q. The road you were driving along, right before you turned over.
13 A. That was the main Zvornik-Bijeljina road. We stopped ahead of the
14 bridge. I knew that the bridge was there, but of course we weren't able
15 to see it where we stopped because from that place called Rocevici or
16 Roncevici [phoen], it would take several more minutes driving to reach the
18 Q. Okay. Now, which way did you turn off the main road driving
19 north? Left or right?
20 A. I said that we turned left, from the Zvornik-Bijeljina road. We
21 crossed -- we turned left off that road.
22 Q. And how far did you travel until you stopped after your left turn?
23 A. A dozen, couple of dozen metres.
24 Q. And where did you stop?
25 A. We stopped on the road side next to a building I presume to be a
1 school. Actually I'm sure that it was.
2 Q. And what did you see at that school?
3 A. I didn't see anything at that school. I saw in front of the
5 Q. Okay. Yeah. What did you see in front of the school?
6 A. I saw a group of people. I saw a UN APC, a personnel carrier.
7 And that group of people. That was all. Of soldiers.
8 Q. What colour was the UN APC?
9 A. White.
10 Q. And did you recognise anybody in that area personally?
11 A. Of the persons who were there, if that's what you're asking, yes.
12 Q. Who did you personally recognise that was there?
13 A. I personally recognised the police commander, Mirko Jankovic. I
14 recognised a colleague, a military policeman, by the name of Zoran
15 Zivanovic. Those are the persons I could identify.
16 Q. And were you able to recognise any of the soldiers from any
17 particular unit?
18 A. As for that other group of 10 to 15 soldiers of the Serbian army
19 that I saw outside the building, let's say in the yard, in a meadow, close
20 to that building, as I was performing these police duties, I could
21 recognise them as members of the Bratunac Brigade. And I state this for a
22 fact, that I could know, judging by the faces of the persons, that they
23 were members of the Zenica company, which was part of the Bratunac
25 Q. Was that group of men from Zenica part of a particular battalion
1 of the Bratunac Brigade?
2 A. I'm not sure. There are some of them in the 1st Battalion and in
3 the 2nd Battalion too. I believe that there is a company in each of the
4 battalions, but I cannot state with any certainty where. I know that
5 there are some of them in both battalions.
6 Q. And what is it about them being from Zenica that -- can you
7 explain that, how men from Zenica are there?
8 A. These were members of the Bratunac Brigade. But we referred to
9 them as Zenicani, the Zenica people, that's because they came from Zenica
10 in 1992 with their families as refugees from that area. There they joined
11 the Serbian army and became part of that establishment, although setting
12 up their own units, platoons, companies, et cetera. And this was the
13 situation throughout the war. They had their own companies and platoons
14 that were then part of battalions, brigades, and the establishment.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'm almost finished but it's break
16 time and hopefully within five or ten minutes I'll finish up.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll have a 25-minute break starting from
18 now. Thank you.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
23 Q. Okay. We're still at -- we just got to the Rocevic school. Is
24 there anybody else or any other persons that you saw there that you could
25 help us recognise, either their identity or their unit, besides what
1 you've already said?
2 A. Other than these two colleagues that I recognised, soldiers that
3 belonged to a specific unit, no.
4 Q. Did you see any officers there?
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear whether the witness
6 said yes or no.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I heard him say "ne," but I would like him to
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. Did you see any officers there?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. What did you do when you -- did you get out of the back of
13 the truck when you arrived?
14 A. I wouldn't call it a truck, the Pinzgauer. I personally went out.
15 Some of the colleagues did not even leave the vehicle. I was standing
16 next to the vehicle, commenting a little bit with the soldiers who were
17 present. That's it.
18 Q. And did you learn anything from those soldiers about what was
19 going on?
20 A. Yes. For example, they said that the school, as the facility,
21 inside, is full of Muslims, that they were told to guard them there for a
22 while, and that vehicles were supposed to come for them to be transported
23 farther on towards Kladanj -- no, actually in the direction of Teocak.
24 And I knew that at the time Teocak and all the time throughout the war was
25 under the command of the Muslim forces. I don't know exactly where,
2 Q. Okay. And did you hear any discussion between Mirko Jankovic and
3 anyone while you were there?
4 A. I heard his conversation with one of the colleagues, actually the
5 only one who happened to be there, Zoran Zivanovic, the talk with him,
6 and -- and a kind of comment, and addressing the other soldiers in the
7 group, and it referred to them in the sense, "You need to see, organise
8 yourselves and gather up the other inhabitants to help you in this
10 And then the part that was -- what Zoran told Mirko Jankovic
11 boiled down that he had the desire to return with the rest of us because
12 we already knew we were going back, those who arrived in the Pinzgauer,
13 myself and the other comments [as interpreted] and he wanted to come back
14 with us, and he said, "Why are they going back without me? I would like
15 to go back with them as well. I am tired." And there that was no way
16 that he wanted to stay. And then I stepped away and I did not follow what
17 happened subsequently in their conversation, and I don't know what
18 happened, whether he went back with us or Mirko in the APC. I believe
19 that he did. Or maybe he even stayed.
20 Q. Okay. And Zoran Zivanovic was a member of the Bratunac Brigade
21 Military Police?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know, was he related to General Zivanovic?
24 A. No. We are not related. We had a member who was related to
25 General Zivanovic, but Zoran Zivanovic that I'm talking about, no.
1 Q. Can you tell me who the person that was related or is related to
2 General Zivanovic, what's his name?
3 A. I don't remember the name, Zivanovic, he was a former escort of
4 General Zivanovic, his personal security detail, a member of his security
5 detail at that time in the unit. As we know Zivanovic was not at that
6 post any more from the fall of Srebrenica and onward, and then the later
7 period after that this colleague Zivanovic, and I might remember his name
8 before we finish, served out his term in the military police platoon
9 together with us.
10 Q. Okay. Let me get you back to Rocevic, sorry about that slight
11 distraction. When did you first hear that you were going back?
12 A. From Rocevic?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. I really cannot be specific. We stayed there 10, 15, 20 minutes,
15 not half an hour, in any event. In the beginning I tried to say I don't
16 know why I got there, who sent us there, what the assignment was. I don't
17 know who issued the assignment for us to return either.
18 Q. Okay. And did you do anything before you guys got in the vehicle
19 and went back?
20 A. Other than just staying there for a bit and then commenting with
21 the soldiers that I found there, nothing else.
22 Q. Did you see any bodies around?
23 A. Absolutely not.
24 Q. Did you see any Muslims, any of the Muslims around at all?
25 A. Like I said, I heard what I -- I said what I heard, but if I had a
1 photograph of the school, the hall, and everything behind the school there
2 are no windows so I was not in a position to see inside, but I had no
3 doubts about believing what the people who were there said.
4 Q. Okay. When your group left after a short time, did the guys, the
5 Zenica guys, stay, as far as you know? Were they there when you left?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How about Mirko Jankovic? Do you know where he went or what he
8 did when you left?
9 A. I know for sure that he didn't stay behind. I don't know if we
10 left together. I am convinced that he left a couple of minutes before we
11 did. He switched the engine on in the APC and left in an unknown
12 direction, as far as I'm concerned.
13 Q. You don't know if he went north or south?
14 A. I don't know, really. From the place where I was, there is a
15 small incline or a kind of mild curve from the place where I was standing
16 on the -- next to the side of the road, but I really don't know.
17 Q. And where did you go when you left?
18 A. We took the same road that we arrived on, in the direction of
19 Zvornik. We took the main Bijeljina-Zvornik road in the direction of
21 Q. And where did you end up?
22 A. The final destination was Bratunac but we did stop by on the way,
23 on that road. While on the way there, we didn't make any stops.
24 Q. And where did you stop on the way back?
25 A. We stopped in the Drinjaca neighbourhood, which is also on the
1 Zvornik-Sarajevo road, before Konjevic Polje, near to Konjevic Polje than
3 Q. And what did you do in the Drinjaca neighbourhood?
4 A. We stopped in Drinjaca, before the war, and now there was a
5 catering establishment. We stopped there. I mentioned about the way we
6 ate in the days before that, in Potocari, food was scarce, we stopped
7 there in order to have dinner in that catering establishment to find that
8 because we knew once we arrived in Bratunac, this would not be waiting for
9 us because we knew we could not achieve that anywhere else because it was
11 Q. Okay. When was the first time that you told anybody from a
12 Tribunal about going to Rocevic, any lawyers or judges or anybody?
13 A. This was mentioned in the B and H court in Sarajevo, and they took
14 that seriously,. At one point I mentioned it during the proofing, for the
15 testimony in the Blagojevic case. I told it to Mr. Michael Karnavas, when
16 we stopped at a specific date, he took what he needed for his case, and
17 that then there were other activities that I linked with those days
18 immediately before the fall of Srebrenica, during and after the fall of
19 Srebrenica. He didn't pay attention to those things.
20 I mentioned some new information in Sarajevo that had to do with
21 that. They listened to me. I had the opportunity to explain, and I see
22 here, I believe that certain things will probably be left unsaid because
23 there is a lot of that, and even during proofing with you, we didn't touch
24 upon a lot of topics; my activities linked to those dates later and the
1 Q. Okay. Did you talk with Mirko Jankovic sometime after these
2 events and ask him about the events?
3 A. We did talk -- well, let me say it was a kind of rebellion, a sort
4 of negative reaction on our part, we, the policemen, at some point
5 afterwards, a week or 10 days later, when the situation with Srebrenica
6 calmed down a bit, when it was all over, we reacted, and I mentioned that
7 somewhere, there was a little bit of dynamics there. Perhaps I
8 exaggerated a little bit, but I'm right over 50 per cent, I'm certain of
9 the facts.
10 Our reaction about the command structure at the given point in
11 time was we felt that we were being infringed upon at that point because
12 at a critical point in time, we had been left without cadre, command
13 cadres, we were left to our own devices and other units and their
14 commanders, I don't know exactly which ones.
15 Q. So did you say this to Mirko Jankovic?
16 A. Not just myself, but other colleagues too, we told him that
17 Slobodan Mijatovic, as the last subordinate, was not with us. There was
18 Mirko, then Mirko's deputy, who was with them, according to their stories,
19 and both of them were linked to Momir Nikolic. This is what they stated,
20 that they spent those two days in the presence of Momir Nikolic which, for
21 us, was incomprehensible for all that command cadre to be working
22 separately, that they are all in a group together and not with the
23 soldiers and the police. And then I added on, you probably went further
24 from Nikolic, he's the first superior, then to Mr. Beara, and then from
25 Beara to Mladic; this complete command cadre had distanced itself from the
1 soldiers. They were working separately because they were telling us what
2 they were doing.
3 Q. Okay. Let me just try to clarify that. You just mentioned the
4 name Beara. Who brought up first the name Beara in this -- in this
6 A. I would say, I would take that upon myself and the colleagues,
7 that this was our revolt, our reaction.
8 Q. And why did you mention Beara's name? Excuse me, let me just
9 clarify that. Did you mention Beara's name or did Mirko Jankovic mention
10 Beara's name first?
11 A. I would say we. I don't mean myself personally, but I mean the
12 colleagues and myself personally.
13 Q. Okay. And in what context was Beara brought up?
14 A. He was mentioned in the context of negative command. At that
15 point in time, based on our conclusion, which was reflected on the
16 situation, which reflected directly upon ourselves. You know, they are
17 always going in a group, going from Mile Petrovic, then goes to Mirko
18 Jankovic, they mention Mr. Nikolic, they grouped themselves, and then we
19 add, so the command cadre as a whole functioned separately from the army.
20 And then we add to this, where did you go and then there was the
21 opportunity for Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Beara, I assume that the superior to him
22 is General -- Mr. Mladic, well we couldn't link anybody else after that
23 because there is nobody else after Mladic. Well, if -- I can explain to
24 you what I meant.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. I think I said through this, if you understood at all what I said.
2 Q. Okay. I thought you had -- you don't need any more explanation?
3 A. No, no, if you have nothing to ask me.
4 Q. Well, what if anything did Mirko Jankovic say after you and the
5 group told him your frustrations?
6 A. He told us several times -- well, actually he was retelling us his
7 situation, the time he spent to go from the first day, his fitness,
8 moving, then at an APC that was captured from the UNPROFOR and that was
9 brought somewhere. He was the only one who could actually operate it,
10 that he was sent to various assignments in that vehicle, and in gathering
11 some people, Muslims, groups of Muslims, escorting Nikolic, he was
12 escorting Nikolic, as well as Mile Petrovic to Konjevic Polje several
13 times. This is what he was talking about. These were some of his
14 activities or their activities, their assignments. Going to the area of
15 Zvornik with that vehicle, which I actually confirmed that for myself that
16 there was some truth in that.
17 He had meetings with high-ranking officers, I recall that other
18 than Nikolic, he mentioned Pop, I don't know who he meant, Pop, Nikolic,
19 he himself, I'm just retelling you what he said. Whereby I understand
20 that he was justifying himself to us, that he was out on assignments, that
21 he was talking -- that he was busy, and that was why we had been left to
22 our own devices.
23 Q. Did he say anything about Beara?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And when he said pop, did you have any idea who he was talking
2 A. I have no idea to this day. Pop in my language means priest. I
3 really don't know.
4 Q. At the time, did you know the commander of the -- or excuse me,
5 did you know the chief of security of the Drina Corps?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you see or -- Beara during these days, before or after the
8 fall of Srebrenica?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And where do you -- did you see him?
11 A. I wouldn't go into the dates, but it's definitely after the fall
12 of Srebrenica, and in my view it was after the situation quietened down.
13 I saw him a couple of times in front of the brigade command, and I saw him
14 much earlier, before those events. He would come in front of the brigade
15 command, this would be usually announced by Nikolic.
16 Q. Okay. Now you say you saw him after things quieted down at the
17 front of the brigade. What do you mean when you say "after things quieted
19 A. I mean -- well, as far as I'm concerned, I spent the 13th, the
20 night, I'm thinking of the 12th, the 13th, the night of the 13th, and I'm
21 thinking of that assignment for which I said that I don't know whether
22 this was on the 14th or the 15th, going to Rocevic. This is the last of
23 my major assignments. As far as I'm concerned. And then after that,
24 return from Rocevic, that's what I'm thinking of, and that's what I
25 described as things having calmed down. I could go back. I could rest.
1 I could relax. I mean, we did have some assignments after that but we
2 will come to that.
3 Q. So do you think you saw him before or after you got back from
5 A. I'm thinking of those days, I'm not thinking of that evening or
6 the next morning, I'm thinking of those days after Rocevic, those days,
7 that could be the 14th, the 15th, it could be the 16th, the 17th, even the
8 20th. I really wouldn't want to speculate.
9 Q. Okay. How about Colonel Jankovic? Aside from seeing him in
10 Potocari on the 12th and 13th, did you see him anywhere else?
11 A. The first time I saw Colonel Jankovic was in Potocari, just like I
12 explained in detail how I got to him, who pointed it out to him -- him out
13 to me, what the contact was. It was unclear to me with those papers when
14 I was reading, with the prosecutor in the B and H court. I'm sure that I
15 didn't understand the question. He asked me did I see him before, and I
16 took the question to mean after because the question was put to me -- he
17 confused me by stating his comment if Colonel Jankovic was in Potocari
18 with a briefcase, which probably made me angry, a Colonel in that
20 I would not see any colonel on the front with a briefcase. The
21 brief case is something you would take into the parliament building or
22 something. So he confused me a bit, so unconsciously I answered that I
23 saw him before just in Potocari for the first time on the 12th and after
24 that, yes, at the brigade command.
25 Q. Okay. So just to be clear, when do you actually remember seeing
1 Colonel Jankovic, before the two days at Potocari, 12th and 13th, or
3 A. I believe you mean the brigade command after those two days in
5 Q. Okay. And did you see him carrying anything?
6 A. No, except in Potocari when I explained what he had of the bags,
7 and I explained that in detail. I don't remember any details; if he was
8 carrying a bag slung across his shoulders, a briefcase, papers, I really
9 don't recall the details.
10 Q. Was he dealing in your knowledge with any particular officer at
11 the Bratunac command?
12 A. I know that when I saw him, he was moving. I'm going to need time
13 if we are looking at the brigade command building, in the middle there is
14 the kitchen, the cafeteria, the mess room, and then next the gate, the
15 commander had his office, and then on the other side, Major Eskic had his
17 I know this because we often were carrying out police jobs, and we
18 were going in that direction, to that office, we were going to take
19 certified requests in order to bring in military conscripts, and I saw him
20 moving in that direction. This was when I saw him in the command sector.
21 In the direction looking from the left of the gate, there was the office
22 of Major Eskic.
23 Q. Okay. Where was Momir Nikolic's office in relation to Eskic's
24 office, if you remember?
25 A. He was somewhere around in the immediate vicinity. Once I was in
1 the room, where I encountered him, whether that was his office or not,
2 it's something I cannot assert. It was on the opposite side from the
3 brigade commander, closer to Eskic in the sector.
4 Q. And did you actually see Jankovic in that sector where those
5 offices were or just going in that direction?
6 A. As I said, his movements in the direction, on the left side of the
7 facility. So the orientation is the left side of the facility where the
8 office was or the seat of Major Eskic. So I saw him outside.
9 Q. So he was outside the building?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you a picture. It's 65 ter 1936. It
12 will be on Sanction again. It's page 43. Has that come up on your
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And do you recognise the person in the forefront of this picture?
16 The big head?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who is that?
19 A. General Krstic.
20 Q. And do you recognise the person over General Krstic's right
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who is that?
24 A. It's me.
25 Q. Do you remember which day this was -- or excuse me, do you
1 remember where this was?
2 A. I remember where it was. It was in Potocari, close to my
3 workplace, let's put it that way, where the buses arrived, where the
4 passengers boarded the buses, in that sector.
5 Q. Do you remember which day?
6 A. I'm not sure. The first?
7 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. I don't have any further questions.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
9 Now, I don't know if you have come to an arrangement amongst
10 yourselves who is going to go first, second.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would reduce my cross-examination
12 but before that I would consult my -- with my client, very briefly.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Okay. You can do that.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, let me just check, Mr. Meek, do you
16 think you still require one hour?
17 MR. MEEK: Well, I hope not, Your Honour. But I may need a good
18 portion of it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic?
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I expect it to be shorter than that,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Stojanovic?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we announced that
24 the examination would take about 45 minutes, and I believe that it will
25 indeed be so.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Fauveau?
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We will need 20 minutes, Your
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The Gvero, no cross-examination?
5 MR. JOSSE: As before.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes.
7 MR. HAYNES: No, we won't be cross-examining this witness.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, thank you, Mr. Haynes.
9 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, we will not cross-examine
11 this witness. Thanks.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Will you go next,
13 Mr. Meek?
14 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And could you introduce yourself to the
16 witness, please?
17 MR. MEEK: Yes, I will.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
19 Q. How are you, sir? My name is Chris Meek and I represent Ljubisa
20 Beara. How are you this morning?
21 A. Fine.
22 Q. You've never met Ljubisa Beara, I take it, from your testimony
23 today and your testimony in the Blagojevic trial, and your statements you
24 gave three years after the Blagojevic trial to the Prosecutor in Sarajevo?
25 A. Can you clarify what you mean? I never met him? Do you mean I
1 didn't get acquainted with him, I didn't see him around? I'm not sure
2 what you're referring to.
3 Q. Well, sir, you've just testified that prior to the fall of
4 Srebrenica and sometime subsequent, you did see him around. Correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What was his position then?
7 A. Do you mean his position as an officer?
8 Q. That's correct. And with which organ?
9 A. We knew through Mr. Nikolic who performed security related duties
10 in the Bratunac Brigade, that according to the information he provided,
11 his superior from the staff and from the security sector was Ljubisa
13 Q. And did you have a close relationship with Mr. Nikolic of the
14 Zvornik Brigade?
15 A. Zvornik Brigade?
16 Q. I'm sorry, excuse me, you're talking about Momir Nikolic in your
17 answer, the Bratunac Brigade?
18 A. If you mean personal, close relations, well, I didn't have those
19 with any of the officers.
20 Q. Okay. So how often would you talk to Mr. Momir Nikolic?
21 A. I can state for a fact that half of his working day, Momir Nikolic
22 spent either with the police or in front of the police building, and such
23 like. He would go with us on regular police assignments such as taking in
24 military conscripts and the like.
25 Q. Well, how often would you speak with him and converse with him on
1 a weekly or bi-weekly basis, to the best of your recollection?
2 A. You're -- you've put seeing and speaking to him in one question.
3 I told you how many times I saw him, and I'm speaking on my -- in my own
4 name and in the name of my unit. We were seeing him but nobody spoke to
5 him. It was mostly he who spoke if you get my meaning. He did the
7 Q. Okay. And we are speaking of Momir Nikolic, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was your immediate supervisor or superior?
10 A. The commander of the military police, in relation to these events,
11 was after Dragisa Ivanovic, was Mirko Jankovic, after Dragisa Ivanovic.
12 And the way we understood it in the chain of command, above Mirko Jankovic
13 was Momir Nikolic, because we didn't have any contacts of the command of
14 the brigade. All the assignments were given by Momir Nikolic, and he was
15 always the one participating in them which I always found quite strange.
16 Q. So is it your understanding, sir, today, as you testify here under
17 oath, that a security officer with the Bratunac Brigade could give orders
18 to military police rather than make requests to the commander of the
19 military police or the commander of the brigade?
20 A. I wouldn't wish to speculate or interpret, but if you want to look
21 at the facts, look at my statements, and who gave me orders on the 12th,
22 13th, and the 14th, and there you will find the answer to that. Whether
23 this is something that was normal or not, I don't want to speculate.
24 Q. Well, I agree with you, sir. I would not like to you speculate
25 either, but I'm afraid we are going to have to get into that since we have
1 already. Now, you testified for Blagojevic Defence, 2004, correct?
2 A. Said what? I'm sorry?
3 Q. You in fact testified as a Defence witness in the Blagojevic case
4 in this building on the 24th and 25th of May 2004, did you not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you spent, would you agree, a substantial period of time with
7 Blagojevic's Defence team, Mr. Karnavas, Ms. Suzana?
8 A. May I answer?
9 Q. Yes?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, go ahead.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't agree with the statement
12 that I spent sufficient time with them.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because the question was a substantial
14 period of time, and now you're saying a sufficient time. Would you
15 clarify that with the witness, please?
16 MR. MEEK: I will, Judge.
17 Q. My question was, sir, didn't you, from when you were first
18 contacted by that Defence team, up and to the time that you actually gave
19 your testimony, that you spent a substantial period of time with them,
20 with that Defence team, irregardless of whether you felt that it was
21 sufficient enough time. You still spent a substantial amount of time
22 going over your proposed testimony. Would that be true, sir?
23 A. I cannot answer to you in terms of substantial or not substantial.
24 I can tell you that I had an hour's meeting with them, and then I had two
25 contacts of one, one and a half hours each, where we actively discussed
1 matters, and if we take into consideration that there was interpretation,
2 there was around one or -- one to two hours discussions here and then some
3 back in Bratunac, maybe amounting to five hours of conversation. Now,
4 whether that's substantial or not, I don't know.
5 Q. So it's your testimony under oath here that Michael Karnavas and
6 his co-counsel, Suzana, only spent approximately five hours total with you
7 from the time they met you until the time they prepared you to testify in
8 the Blagojevic case?
9 A. Of active conversation.
10 Q. All right. Then give us an idea of how many hours of inactive
11 conversation you had with the Blagojevic Defence team.
12 A. Going to --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to the next question, please.
14 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, if you would allow me one more question on
15 this subject.
16 Q. When you say inactive time or inactive hours or inactive
17 conversation, you're not telling us that you didn't talk about the case at
18 all or the facts that you lived through in that week or so in 1995 in
19 July? You're not telling us that, are you?
20 A. I'm referring to the time that it took us to reach the place where
21 we had conversations, the drive to and fro of some 10 to 15 minutes
22 because we already -- always had somebody taking us to them or from them,
23 and then we had an exchange of pleasantries, talking about the weather,
24 that's something that I don't factor into active conversation, talking
25 about weather or local history.
1 Q. And you are aware, sir, are you not, that Mr. Karnavas's client,
2 Mr. Blagojevic, he had a defence that there was a parallel chain of
3 command and that security was behind all of this? Do you realise that,
5 A. I don't know anything about that.
6 Q. Mr. Karnavas never talked to you about that?
7 A. Save for what is contained in the statement and for telling me
8 why -- save for what is contained in the statement, he never told me what
9 line of defence he had and how, and we never talked about those matters.
10 Q. Well, let me put it to you, sir, that you did talk about matters
11 in relation to security officers, didn't you, during this time period of
12 the 11th through the 17th or 18th of July 1995?
13 A. If you're referring to Mr. Nikolic as among security officers,
14 well, he was mentioned on several occasions.
15 Q. And you're telling us under oath today that this Momir Nikolic is
16 the only security officer that Michael Karnavas and his Defence team were
17 interested in talking to you about?
18 A. I sense something quite overwhelming or overpowering from your
19 side because in almost every question you put to me there is mention of an
20 oath or something like that.
21 Q. Well, yes, sir. You're under oath and you've testified in
22 Sarajevo, correct?
23 A. Now, I understand that after each question, there is mention of an
24 oath. Yes, I did testify under oath in Sarajevo.
25 Q. Okay. And in fact, can you tell the Trial Chamber the individuals
1 who you testified against? Could you name them, please?
2 A. I would answer that question if the -- if Their Honours ask me
3 about that. I have a right to say that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: You complicated this, Mr. Meek, because he qualified
5 it as testimony against a particular person. I would imagine that he
6 testified about events.
7 MR. MEEK: I'll rephrase it.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And about persons but not necessarily against.
9 MR. MEEK: Well that could just be a matter of the systems we come
10 from, Your Honour, because when usually a Prosecution witness comes in a
11 criminal case, it's to testify against an accused.
12 Q. Let me ask you this, sir --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Mr. Meek, because yes, we don't have
14 Prosecution and Defence witnesses here. We have witnesses on whom neither
15 Prosecution nor defence can pretend any ownership rights.
16 MR. MEEK:
17 Q. Sir you mentioned today in your testimony a colleague, Miladin
18 Blagojevic, correct?
19 A. Not Miladin, Miladin Blagojevic.
20 Q. Excuse my pronunciation. And you've also mentioned another
21 colleague of yours from 1995, Zoran Zivanovic, have you not?
22 A. In 1995, I mentioned several colleagues, not only Zoran Zivanovic.
23 I only mentioned him in connection with one of the locations.
24 Q. Sir, we can get through this a lot quicker if you'll just try to
25 listen to my answer, and if you can possibly say yes or no it will be well
1 appreciated by me and I presume everybody else here.
2 In the case, you testified in Sarajevo, there were four accused;
3 is that correct, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. One of those was Zoran Zivanovic, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Your colleague from the Bratunac Brigade?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Another one was Mladen Blagojevic, correct?
10 A. One of them was Mladen Blagojevic, yes.
11 Q. And he was also your colleague from the Bratunac Brigade, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And then we have Bozic, you can help me on this one, witness,
15 A. Zdravko Bozic, yes.
16 Q. Now, he was also a colleague of yours, wasn't he, in 1995?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And Zeljko Zaric?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Another colleague of yours from 1995, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And during this time period that we have been talking about today
23 in court, you were with these folks, weren't you, these colleagues, from
24 time to time, during those three days; isn't that correct, sir?
25 A. With some of them, yes.
1 Q. Okay. And, sir, did you have a lawyer down in there in that court
2 at any time prior to or during your testimony against these four
3 individuals we have just discussed?
4 A. Again, you're using that term "against." I don't know if that's
6 Q. I'm just asking you again, I don't know what term you're talking
7 about --
8 A. It was translated to me as "against."
9 Q. Sir, did you have a lawyer in the Court in Bosnia-Herzegovina any
10 time prior to or during or after your giving testimony in that case?
11 A. I didn't have contacts with any lawyers save for Mr. Prosecutor in
12 question, before that, in February.
13 Q. In February. And since then?
14 A. Since then, in July, I appeared in that case. I was in the
16 Q. Were you represented by a lawyer? That's my only question.
17 A. I don't understand. Was I represented? I wasn't the one who was
18 tried. I was on my own.
19 Q. Your colleagues were being tried, correct? The colleagues that
20 you spent the time with or some of the time with in the same days you've
21 been testifying about at the same locations you've been testifying about,
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's told us already that he didn't have the
24 assistance of counsel. So let's move to the next question, Mr. Meek.
25 MR. MEEK: Bear with me for a moment, Judge.
1 Q. Prior to your testimony, let me ask this: Because Bratunac is not
2 a big city, is it?
3 A. In my mind, it is. I don't know what you're getting at.
4 Q. Most people know everybody that's grown up there and lived there,
6 A. I wouldn't make such assumptions. If you can put a specific
7 question to me. Really I don't want to speculate.
8 Q. Do you recall the time when your four colleagues that we've just
9 mentioned were under investigation in the Court in Bosnia-Herzegovina or
10 had just been indicted?
11 A. My first contact with the Prosecutor in February, my only contact
12 with anybody at that time, was when I learned that they were in detention
13 and that an indictment had been issued against them. I was told that the
14 Prosecutor thought my statement in that case was very important. He told
15 me that he was representing the office of the Prosecutor.
16 Q. Do you know the name of that prosecutor?
17 A. I don't want to speculate. I wouldn't wish to offend him. I know
18 that he's of Asian origin. He may be from China or Korea. I don't want
19 to speculate. I have his calling card from somewhere. If I'd known I was
20 going to need it I would have taken it with me, but I can get hold of it
21 over the break.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. I'll take you up on that. Did, sir,
23 he contact you and, if so, how?
24 A. Since I am not living in Bratunac, for the past two years, they
25 tried to contact me at home in January. There was a person introducing
1 himself on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor, and he came with a
2 summons that he served -- he wanted to serve to me, but there were just my
3 parents there. My parents kept in touch with me and at the same time I
4 got in touch with the Bratunac SUP who told me that I was supposed to get
5 back to them in Sarajevo.
6 What I did, I left them my phone number and shortly after that I
7 was -- I received a call from Sarajevo, from a person who introduced
8 himself by the name of Brkic who said that he was working for the BH state
9 court, and that I should appear before the BH court some time in February,
10 I don't know the date exactly, that I should provide them with my address
11 and I did so.
12 Q. Now, did you ever see a copy of that summons? Was it left with
13 the SUP or was it left at your house?
14 A. As for the summons, I was told that the summons would be served on
15 me as soon as I arrived at the Kraljica Jelena in Sarajevo, in the
16 building of the BH court, because I insisted on receiving the summons in
17 order to be able to justify my absence from work. I did receive the
18 summons in the BH court as promised.
19 Q. And included in that summons did it tell you that you were a
20 suspect, that they wanted to interview you as a suspect?
21 A. I wasn't examining the summons, but I did conclude that this was
22 some sort of investigation, because I read on the door to the office where
23 I was taken that it said, "Interview room" or "interrogation room," one of
24 the two was definitely correct.
25 Q. And you'll agree with me, sir, that you never had mentioned to
1 Michael Karnavas or his Defence team because you say they just did not pay
2 attention, about this alleged stories that you heard weeks later about a
3 Pop or a Beara? You just never told them anything about that, nor did you
4 tell anybody about it until three years later when you went down to
6 A. I didn't have contacts about that for three years at all. After
7 staying there in May of 2004, the first -- the next time when I talked
8 about my participation in the events in Srebrenica was in Sarajevo in the
9 month of February, earlier this year. To answer your previous question,
10 that was my impression, why I was there, because during the contact I had
11 with the person who introduced himself as the prosecutor and with the rest
12 of his team, he told me that he needed my statement in the case Prosecutor
13 versus Bozic et al, that I was supposed to be the future potential witness
14 of the Prosecution.
15 Q. And you understood, didn't you, that the Prosecution wanted to
16 convict those four colleagues of yours, correct?
17 A. It did not convict them. I don't know if they will be convicted
18 or not. I really don't want to speculate, if they really want to convict
19 them or not, what will happen.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. They initiated the proceedings.
22 Q. How well, sir, how well, sir, did you know Jankovic before these
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we clarify which one?
25 MR. MEEK:
1 Q. The commander, the new commander.
2 A. I knew him from the day that I arrived at the police in 2004. He
3 was already in the police and that's where I met him. I'm sorry, I meant
4 1994. Maybe I made a mistake.
5 Q. Now, and while you were in this interview in May of 2000 -- excuse
6 me, February of -- February 5th of 2007, just this year, after having
7 testified here in the Blagojevic case over the same facts three years
8 earlier, towards the very end of your statement, do you recall the
9 Prosecutor asking you, "Did you see who was in charge of these soldiers?"
10 Meaning the -- 40 or 50 soldiers that you claim were around Rocevici.
11 A. I don't know if I mentioned the figure 40 or 50, if the
12 translation I got is good.
13 Q. Well, the translation I get in English, but be that as it may, do
14 you recall the Prosecutor, sir, asking you towards the very end of that
15 day-long interview, question: "Did you see who was in charge of these
16 soldiers?" Question. You remember that?
17 A. No, I don't remember that really.
18 Q. Your answer was, "No." Does that refresh your recollection?
19 A. I don't remember anything about that. Perhaps we can move to the
20 next question. I don't remember what I said.
21 Q. You don't remember what you said there? Are you telling me you
22 don't remember what you said in the statement in February of this year?
23 A. No, no. I'm not saying that.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: If you are interested in any particular part of that
25 statement, show it to him, Mr. Meek.
1 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I don't have a B/C/S copy of it. But it's
2 on --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure it can be provided.
4 MR. MEEK: The way they did this, Your Honour, they had like four
5 sessions, and every time they will start a session they start with a new
6 page number, 1 through whatever they get to, 25, 30, then they start at 1
7 again. So I think this is the last --
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: There is a B/C/S, I think --
9 MR. MEEK: There is one, I know.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure there is.
11 MR. MEEK: And it's --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could take a moment so the witness can have
13 the copy?
14 MR. MEEK: We can give him a hard copy or would you like to put it
15 on -- 65 ter number 2963. No. That's not it. That's Blagojevic. For
16 the record, Your Honours, this would be page 6, starting at lower page 6
17 of the last section of the interview, the transcript of the interview.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put it on the ELMO so that at least there is a
19 record of it.
20 MR. MEEK:
21 Q. Okay. I think, witness, for you it would be lines 17. Could you
22 read out line 17, the Prosecutor's question?
23 A. "Did you see who was in charge of these soldiers?"
24 Q. What was your answer, sir?
25 A. The answer was, "No."
1 Q. Do you recall, before I go any further, at the start of this
2 conversation you had down there in Sarajevo, the BiH court, you told them
3 you were there just to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, remember?
4 A. We are evidently misunderstanding each other. I said today too
5 that I don't know who was in command of those soldiers. You asked me if
6 the question was put to me, "Did I know who was in command," not what my
7 answer was. My answer today is that I don't know. It was then the same.
8 And much earlier than that, too. This question was also put by the
10 Q. Well, if you recalled it, why didn't you just answer it that you
11 remember that and you said no? But I'll go on. The Prosecutor then asked
12 you did you see any officers from any brigade? It's on the screen. And
13 you can flip to the next page, if you want to read it. Maybe you remember
14 your answer now. I don't know. Did that help refresh your recollection?
15 A. We still are not understanding each other. The question put to me
16 before that is do I recall whether the question was put to me and what the
17 answer was. I don't remember if the question was put to me. I think this
18 is where the -- but you are insisting that I did not answer, how I
20 Q. I'm not insisting anything, sir. I'm just asking you -- you're
21 looking at a transcript of your statement you gave in February of this
22 year, that you claimed to have read and it's correct, and truthful. So we
23 are at cross-purposes here. In any event, the Prosecutor then asked you,
24 sir, "Did you see any officers from any brigade?" And your answer was, at
25 the top of the next page, line 1, can you see it on the screen, sir? You
1 can read it to yourself if you'd like to, if that refreshes your
3 JUDGE PROST: It would be helpful, Mr. Meek if it were read.
4 MR. MEEK: I will, thank you,.
5 JUDGE PROST: So we can follow.
6 MR. MEEK: I know.
7 Q. Okay. You answered to that question, sir, whether or not you had
8 seen any officers from the brigade. Your answer, sir, was, "Not in that
9 moment. Definitely not. I know from the stories that later when we were
10 coming back, that later, at the police, some officers came during the day
11 and some of them came for sure. Jankovic mentioned it later. He
12 commented about it, about some of his experiences and encounters with
13 those people. I really don't know the names." You remember giving that
14 answer, sir?
15 A. It's the same thing that I answered this morning. I explained all
16 this in detail about his experiences, movements, mention of specific names
17 like Pop and so on. But not linked directly with this person where you
19 Q. That was a truthful answer that you gave back in February to the
20 Court prosecutor in Bosnia-Herzegovina, correct?
21 A. I don't know which answer you mean. What I'm saying now, I stand
22 by. I don't understand you.
23 Q. Very simple, sir. Your answer was that at that moment, you didn't
24 see any officers from the brigade definitely not. Later you heard stories
25 about it, and Jankovic even mentioned it to you later, when he commented
1 on some of his experiences. Is that correct? Is that what happened?
2 That's all I'm asking.
3 A. About the events, but I cannot link those events with the place of
4 Rocevic, with his entire engagement over the course of the two days.
5 Perhaps it's some other locations. I'm not connecting them with that
6 location, those events. He never said Rocevic, Kravica, Konjevic Polje,
7 Ljubovija, and let me not mention any more. He was talking globally.
8 Q. Later on, and if you'd like to, it should be on page 8 if you'd
9 like to turn it, but let me just see if I can refresh your recollection
10 first. It should be page 8. Okay. Now, again, the Prosecutor asked you
11 a similar question that Mr. McCloskey asked you today, and that is, "What
12 did Jankovic talk about when he mentioned the man nicknamed Pop?" Your
13 answer then was, "I really don't know. He said that he was with officers,
14 that everything -- I cannot make any guesses. First, he always praised
15 himself. He was always with some -- we did not believe everything he
16 said. He's the kind of person who likes to brag around. Closer he is to
17 Momir," and that's Nikolic, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "The closer he is to Momir or someone with a rank, the better he
20 feels. If we tried to find some logics in the whole event and answer why
21 everything was on the police shoulder, the answer is because there was no
22 command." Do you recall giving that answer, sir?
23 A. I see it, and I remember it, yes.
24 Q. And it was the truth, this guy praised himself, Jankovic, didn't
25 he, praised himself all the time?
1 A. That's what he used to say.
2 Q. That's what you used to say, correct? And your colleagues. You
3 said it here, correct?
4 A. I said that because I was present and I heard that, yes.
5 Q. And you also said, when you gave this truthful statement down
6 there, that "We did not believe everything he said." Correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Because basically Jankovic was just one of those kind of people
9 that wanted to go around and tell people how important they were and brag
10 and say, I was with so and so at this date and I was with so and so at
11 that date, to try to impress people; isn't that a fact, sir?
12 A. Well, there are a bit too many questions. According to what I
13 said, he tended to boast to exaggerate his importance, his assignment.
14 Q. And you all didn't believe everything he said?
15 A. You're absolutely correct.
16 Q. And since you don't want to speculate, you wouldn't want to really
17 sit here and speculate that what Jankovic told you in his braggadocio back
18 then about Beara, was really true, would you?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, that's argumentative.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is definitely argumentative. Mr. Meek, you
21 can rephrase your question, but he's not to answer the one as formulated.
22 MR. MEEK:
23 Q. Sir, let me ask you this question because you are not an accused:
24 Did you make any kind of deal with any prosecutor or prosecutors in the
25 Court in Sarajevo not to be indicted for war crimes that occurred as your
1 colleagues were?
2 A. Well, for me, this is an insulting question, and if I do not have
3 to, I would rather not answer that question. It's absurd.
4 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm sorry that it insults you but frankly, a lot of
5 times, individuals will make agreements with prosecutors so they don't
6 become charged but yet testify in other proceedings against other people
7 who are charged. And I believe it's a fair question.
8 A. I don't believe that it is, and I don't see myself as a potential
9 suspect, and from that side, I'm not afraid, and I have no deals with
10 these gentlemen here or with Mr. Karnavas before or anything like that.
11 Nobody ever tried to persuade me about anything or to anything.
12 Q. Sir, I know that you don't see yourself as a potential suspect, I
13 know that Mr. Karnavas didn't, and I'm not saying that the prosecutors
14 over here did. My question simply put: You had four colleagues from the
15 same period of time indicted in the Court in Bosnia-Herzegovina. You
16 don't get indicted. You testify in that case. And then all of a sudden,
17 after your testimony, you bring up the name of my client and a few other
18 people that will link, make the linkage that's possible for what this
19 prosecutor wants in this case, and I put it to you that's what happened.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already answered the question that he's made no
21 deals with anyone, Mr. Meek. Let's move to your next question.
22 MR. MEEK: Okay.
23 Q. And again on page 7, when you're even talking with these folks in
24 Sarajevo, you would often times say he mentioned -- again, page 7, B/C/S,
25 line 7 for English. I'll read it out. It's after a long question by the
1 Prosecutor, you answer a long question any way about the stories that
2 later were coming back and Jankovic mentioned it later, the Prosecutor
3 said: Question: "So what did he say?" Your answer was: "Well, he
4 mentioned some officers, he said that he had contact with them, I really
5 don't know."
6 That was true, wasn't it? You really didn't know their names? Or
7 were you not telling the truth?
8 A. You're saying I'm not speaking the truth. I'm saying now that I
9 didn't know the names. I said then that I didn't know the names. I
10 didn't know them then, and I don't know them now.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. You are confusing me after putting the question with comments.
13 Q. Okay. Now, I see your answer on page 64, line 4 through 6.
14 That's fine. That's the same answer you gave back in Sarajevo, February
15 of this year. Then, sir, you kind of indicated in that statement that the
16 stories you heard about, and again they were stories, correct, gossip,
17 innuendo, hearsay?
18 A. This is his return -- well, I explained about our reaction to all
19 of those events, the loss of command cadre. I don't want to repeat that.
20 That was his answer, his justification, his assignments, in the course of
21 those two days, because we literally asked him what he was doing over
22 those two days, him and the others from the command group. Then he
23 continued that story of his, what he was doing, and I already talked about
24 that. I don't want to repeat that again.
25 Q. But you kind of indicated in the statement that the stories came
1 later, we were coming back, and later at the police station, but it really
2 wasn't that soon after the events, was it, sir?
3 A. I think that you have -- well, I explained that, later, I think I
4 explained it maybe twice from this morning, after those events when they
5 asked me what did I think, when the situation calmed down, and thinking
6 about the assignments of the 13th, the 14th, the 12th or the 14th and the
7 15th, that trip to Rocevic, and then the return, so I'm thinking of the
8 events after those dates. I cannot say what happened before those dates.
9 Q. I understand that. And the events that happened before that date
10 with Jankovic, when he wasn't around, that's the stories he's telling you
11 about, correct? Or was it during the days, two days or so, you were at
12 Rocevic that he wasn't there, or both? And I'll rephrase the question if
13 you'd like me to?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so because he did testify that in Rocevic he
15 saw amongst others Jankovic, didn't he?
16 MR. MEEK: All right.
17 Q. So let me get this straight. I really want to get this straight.
18 When Jankovic is telling you subsequent to Rocevic about who he had been
19 with, and he's naming these names, that you don't know the names, and you
20 don't know the people, when was that time period? When did you understand
21 that time period was, that he was talking about, when he was telling you
22 these stories?
23 A. I answered that question ten seconds ago, that these are dates
24 after the 15th and that the story about those dates, the stories, referred
25 to the times when he was not with us, in answer to the put question, when
1 he was not with us. He was not with us on the 12th, he was not with us on
2 the 13th, and even after the 15th with the exception of that brief meeting
3 in Rocevic on the 15th or maybe the 14th, I think.
4 Q. And when did he -- when did he tell you -- strike that question.
5 Earlier today, you testified on direct examination that you made
6 that comment, it wasn't Jankovic, it was you who made the comment about
7 feeling double-crossed somehow, not having a commander there and -- is
8 that true?
9 A. We, I said about an hour ago, us, meaning myself and my
10 colleagues, we, not I.
11 Q. All right. Well, do you recall talking yesterday, last evening,
12 with Mr. McCloskey, from the Prosecutor's Office, making more changes in
13 your statements and testimony, and clarifications?
14 A. I did have a contacts yesterday, in the late afternoon, but you
15 could say that it was more to assist with a couple of clarifications, to
16 interpret what I meant, in those papers that arrived from Sarajevo, very,
17 very briefly.
18 Q. Okay. And very briefly, would you agree with the Prosecutor,
19 Mr. McCloskey, when he says, during this brief time you spent together
20 talking about certain issues, out of which, sir, was generated an
21 additional proofing notes of Mile Janjic, Mr. McCloskey says, "I asked
22 him," meaning you, "where he received the information he provided the
23 state Prosecutor about Beara and the person named Pop. And he stated that
24 he received that information from Mirko Jankovic one to two weeks after
25 the events.
1 Do you remember telling the Prosecutor that yesterday?
2 A. That I said that days after those events. I'm not sure that I
3 mentioned a week or two after.
4 Q. My additional proofing notes say, one to two weeks after the
6 A. I don't believe that I specified the time. That's not clear to
7 me. I believe that after the events or the dates after those events, or
8 perhaps I had used the words after the situation calmed down, and I was
9 asked what I meant by that and I responded to that question this morning.
10 As for the rest, I really -- I don't know.
11 Q. Sir, with all due respect, you respond to questions in different
12 ways when you're asked by different people, but to go on, in your meeting
13 with Mr. McCloskey yesterday --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: This should just be ended.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: These kind of continuing comments will make it
19 impossible for a witness to respond. After a while there is no point in
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We will not allow you to treat witnesses like that.
22 MR. MEEK: I'm sorry, I apologise. Witness, I apologise.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And your time is coming up. You've got three more
24 minutes to finish your examination.
25 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. McCloskey, the Prosecutor, tells me and all the are rest of
2 the Defence counsel representing these accused here today that you told
3 him that you asked Mirko Jankovic where he was during the -- those days
4 because the MPs were not happy about not having their commander with them.
5 And then you say, Mirko Jankovic responded by bragging. Do you remember
6 telling Mr. McCloskey that yesterday?
7 A. We asked him, and not only him but the rest of the command group,
8 including Petrovic, even that lowest ranking person, well, I cannot answer
9 with a yes or no regardless of your nervousness.
10 Q. Can I just break in, Judge? This was a very simple question, just
11 whether he remembered answering it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But you have repeatedly put the same question.
13 MR. MEEK: Not this question.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You repeatedly have the same answer, and you keep
15 repeating, you are annoying the witness, you are annoying the Trial
16 Chamber, and you're getting no where.
17 MR. MEEK: Well, honestly I apologise for being annoying but this
18 is the additional proofing sheet we received late last night or this
19 morning and it's all completely new. I only have a few more questions on
20 it. I'm just asking the witness: Do you recall telling Mr. McCloskey
21 this yesterday? If he doesn't, he can say no. If he does, he can say
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Mr. Meek, with your last questions.
24 MR. MEEK:
25 Q. Do you recall yesterday telling Mr. McCloskey that Mirko Jankovic
1 told you that he -- that during that time, he was the only person who
2 could drive the UN APC? Do you recall that, just yes or no, talking with
3 Mr. McCloskey about that yesterday?
4 A. Well, I have to answer this way: He said he was the only person
5 that managed to start up the UN vehicle. He didn't say that he was the
6 only person that he knew how to drive it. I mean we are setting off from
7 the assumption that we drove it frequently. Maybe then we can come to the
8 conclusion that somebody else tried to start up the engine but he was the
9 only one who had managed to do that.
10 Q. Sir, we are just about finished here obviously, but you did not
11 see and you told Mr. McCloskey in the proofing session, you did not see
12 Ljubisa Beara any time, the 11th, 12th, 13th, nor did you see him at the
13 Hotel Fontana during the period you were there, correct?
14 A. I didn't see him at the time, in those days, I don't remember.
15 Q. So basically what we have, and I just want to summarise this real
16 quickly, your testimony regarding my client, Ljubisa Beara, comes from
17 Mirko Jankovic, a person who you don't trust everything he says, he brags
18 a lot, and he likes to be the centre of attention by throwing names out?
19 Would that be a fair statement?
20 A. Except I would just add that except for seeing him after those
21 events, the three dates. I would just add that, but I would otherwise
22 agree with what you stated.
23 Q. Thank you very much and very quickly on that, I think you got back
24 the 15th, correct, of July?
25 A. I said perhaps a hundred times about these two dates that I wasn't
1 sure whether it was the 14th or the 15th. I don't remember.
2 Q. And you were off for a few days after being on call, on duty, all
3 this time, weren't you? I think you testified you had a few light duties
4 but you had some time off?
5 A. I had some health problems in those two or three days. I was
6 receiving an infusion in the infirmary. And then we had many assignments
7 we had to perform in relation to Srebrenica. Nobody had ever asked me
9 Q. How long were you in the infirmary?
10 A. I didn't say I was in the hospital. It was merely an infirmary
11 where I was treated and sent back home to undergo the treatment that I was
12 given, and I believe that it was whilst I was undergoing that treatment
13 that I was called off for that assignment in Rocevic, whether somebody
14 called me or came to pick me up. And it's again those two days.
15 Definitely after the night of the 13th.
16 Q. Okay. I don't have any further questions. Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek. We will have a 25-minute
18 break. We start at 1.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you go next, Ms. Nikolic?
22 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you,
23 Mr. President.
24 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Janjic.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. My name is Jelena Nikolic and I represent the Defence of Mr. Drago
3 Nikolic. I want to put a couple of questions to you concerning your duty
4 activities in the Bratunac Brigade, in the military police there. You
5 know that the military police of the Bratunac Brigade kept diaries on
6 daily activities where the duty officer wrote the events of the day
7 concerning the unit?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit
10 P220? 65 ter number. And it's page 6 in the B/C/S and 3 in the English
12 Q. This is the entry for the 2nd and the 3rd of July 1995, in the
13 military police logbook or diary. Could you please take a look at it?
14 It's in front of you. Do you see the document there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. It says here, if I'm not mistaken, "Duty officer, Mile Janjic"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That's you, is it not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you recognise this entry and the handwriting?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Whose handwriting is it?
23 A. I am almost certain that it is mine.
24 Q. And you briefly wrote what it was that happened on the 2nd and the
25 3rd of July 1995, what the patrol and other military police units did out
1 in the field; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 16 of
4 the same document, in the B/C/S, and 13 in the English.
5 Q. Before the document appears on the screen, I will tell you that
6 this is an entry for the 12th -- the 13th of July 1995. We can see that
7 another duty officer is named here; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Reading this entry, I found under one of the bullets that the
10 military police, among other things, provided security to the commander
11 Ratko Mladic and had night guard shift at the Hotel Fontana and so on and
12 so forth. Have you read this?
13 A. Yes, yes, I have.
14 Q. Is that correct? Does this reflect what happened on that day?
15 A. I wouldn't be able to give you a yes or no answer since I didn't
16 write this document. I see just by casting one glance of it some
17 irregularities on it, either concerning the date or -- what I want to say
18 is that the text does not reflect what I know happened and I'm sure
20 Q. Very well.
21 A. And I mean the part of the text where it says, "Bridge, Mladen
22 Blagojevic," although I'm sure it says Mile Janjic. It says my name on
24 Q. You'll agree with me, then, won't you, that one part of the entry
25 does reflect what happened, whereas there are some errors concerning the
1 dates and the presence of the persons at the bridge on that date?
2 A. I connect the date, I tie it up with the presence, if I'm talking
3 about myself personally, if it says the 12th and the 13th, that I spent
4 those two days at the bridge and I wish I did, then I don't think the date
5 is correct because I could not have been at the bridge on the 12th and the
6 13th at any time of day, not for a moment. This is unclear to me. I can
7 only assume -- I can see that the signature is that of the duty officer,
8 Mile Petrovic. We know also too, according to what he said, that he had
9 great assignments with Mirko Jankovic and Momir Nikolic and others. I
10 believe that the document may have been written subsequently, that the
11 diary may have been supplemented subsequently. What's unclear to me is
12 the UNHCR. I don't know anything about that. The security for the UNHCR,
13 that is.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you. But on that date, you were on duty at
15 Fontana and you were providing security for Ratko Mladic on the 12th?
16 A. Yes. On the 12th, I was securing the area there at Fontana, and
17 in Potocari, yes.
18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the
19 same document but page 19 in the B/C/S and 16 in the English?
20 Q. Mr. Janjic, do you see the document before you? Again, this is an
21 entry, if the date is correct, for the 17th of July 1995. Again some of
22 the duties of the military police?
23 A. I see that.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the entire
25 page, can we scroll the page down for him to read the entirety of the
1 text? Thank you.
2 Q. I see that you were not on duty on that day. Your name is not
3 mentioned there either. However, in one section of it, we have an entry,
4 by a third person, that one of the activities on that date was the going
5 to the, to Pilica, in the territory of Zvornik municipality of a group of
6 military police. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Do you believe that these other entries are also authentic
9 although you did not write them in your own hand?
10 A. Well, by the very fact that I wasn't there, that I wasn't
11 mentioned, I wouldn't be able to say anything about this document authored
12 by someone else. I cannot either confirm or deny that they were there or
13 not. It does look and appear like a regular police report, and that's all
14 I can tell you about it.
15 Q. Looks like one of the regular police duties of the day?
16 A. The report looks like that. Now, whether the contents are true or
17 not, I don't want to comment upon that.
18 Q. Thank you. Let me go back to a couple of questions concerning the
19 statement you gave or your testimony before the BH court in Sarajevo
20 against the four of your colleagues. You've testified quite a lot about
21 it today, and I am not going back and revisiting the same issues. We have
22 the number of the case. You saw the minutes, that's KTRZ 132/06 of the
23 State Court for the War Crimes in Sarajevo. The case against Blagojevic,
24 Mladen, Zoran Zivanovic, and others.
25 Testifying in that case, since you testified in that case, you
1 know that your colleagues in addition to the events in the Vuk Karadzic
2 school, they were also charged for the events at the Orahovac school based
3 on this indictment?
4 A. I can tell you that I have never seen the indictment against the
5 four colleagues. I don't know what they were charged with. It was never
6 read out to me.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit
8 3D133? That's an MFI document of the 9th of May 2007. It's a Defence
9 Exhibit that was admitted through a different witness. Can the B/C/S
10 version be shown to the witness, please? Can we turn to -- do we have the
11 B/C/S version?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it available or not?
13 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Here it is. You see the document before you?
15 A. Yes, I've been reading it.
16 Q. We can turn to the following page, to shorten the procedure. You
17 will recognise the names and the -- what is stated here is the background
18 information concerning your colleagues. Are these the four individuals we
19 were discussing previously?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can we turn to the next page, please? You can see that this has
22 to do with the events at Vuk Karadzic school?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can we turn to the next page? If you look at item 6 and 7, where
25 these individuals are charged with the events in Orahovac in the Zvornik
2 A. Yes, I can see that now.
3 Q. That's the same case in which you testified before the Court in
5 A. Yes. But this is the first time I'm looking at the indictment.
6 Q. And you did not testify in relation to these events; rather only
7 in relation to the events in the Vuk Karadzic school and in relation to
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I have two or three questions for you concerning your trip to
11 Rocevic. You said that six or seven of you were driving in a Pinzgauer
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you describe the vehicle for us, please?
15 A. It's a military vehicle, the Pinzgauer. At the front it had a cab
16 seating two, driver and the passenger next to the driver. At the back it
17 did not have a tarpaulin. It was an open-type vehicle. And it had two
18 parallel benches, laterally, with the mounted anti-aircraft machine-gun
19 and primitively produced cover around it which could turn 360 degrees,
20 turn on itself.
21 Q. You said today that you left off in the late afternoon hours. Can
22 you please tell us approximately the time when it was that you set out on
23 the 14th and the 15th of July from Bratunac and how long it took you
24 roughly to reach that school in Rocevic?
25 A. It's difficult to do that but I will try. If we started off as it
1 became dark, and it took us more than an hour and a half with that sort of
2 vehicle to reach Rocevici. It could have been 8.00 in the afternoon,
4 Q. That you arrived there?
5 A. That we set off. That we set off from Bratunac, around -- at
6 around 7.00. I'm saying this because I know that it was already dark as
7 we were going back, and if we know that in the summer time it becomes dark
8 at around 9.30, then that would be roughly it. I'm trying to assist you.
9 Q. That means that you arrived in Rocevic at around 8.30, 9.00, in
10 the evening on that day?
11 A. Yes. We could say it was 8.30, after 8.00, probably.
12 Q. Was it -- was it already getting dark at the point?
13 A. No, it wasn't dark at the time. It was when we were going back,
14 so in Drinjaca, as we were one hour into our trip, it was already dark.
15 So we could perhaps say that we set out from there at around 9.00.
16 Q. You will agree with me that it roughly took an hour, an hour and a
17 half, both ways, for the trip, Bratunac-Zvornik-Rocevic and back?
18 A. I would say both -- for both ways, it took you that amount of time
19 in one way and back, if you're taking the same route, that is.
20 Q. Were you taking the same route that day?
21 A. As we were going off on our assignment, we took one route, and
22 then as we were going back, we partly took the same route and partly took
23 a different route to the same destination.
24 Q. Where was it that you changed the route and to what destination
25 was it and why, if you can tell us?
1 A. On our way back from Rocevici, we reached Zvornik. That was the
2 first large town. And then from Zvornik we were using the
3 Zvornik-Sarajevo road, and stopped at Drinjaca, which is a small place.
4 There, we made a stop, we had our supper there, I said this already, and
5 it was already pitch dark at the time. And then we took a different route
6 to go back to Bratunac.
7 Q. Was it a longer or a shorter route? How long did it take you,
8 along this route?
9 A. From there to Bratunac, it's a longer route. It's mostly a
10 macadam road, a dirt road, and we had to move more slowly, and it took us
11 longer than it did when we were going from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac.
12 Q. Why did you choose that other route? Why didn't you take the
13 regular Konjevic Polje-Bratunac route?
14 A. As I said, the head of our party was Slobodan Mijatovic, who was a
15 squad commander. That was down to him. We were told that for security
16 reasons, we should go back along that route. He told us that but he
17 didn't tell us who had told him that. But even if he hadn't told us that,
18 we would have suggested that on our own. I suppose I would, and others,
19 for security reasons. We would have decided to take that route anyway,
20 because we knew, and we also assumed, that there would be Muslim forces
21 crossing the area of Konjevic Polje, the area of Kravica, and we had had
22 that sort of information in the course of the day anyway.
23 Q. Today, when you were testifying, several times in response to
24 questions, without mentioning the first name of the person with the
25 surname Nikolic, I assume that the whole time you were testifying about
1 Mr. Momir Nikolic from the Bratunac Brigade; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, absolutely.
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have no
4 further questions.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Nikolic.
6 Mr. Stojanovic, do you still require 45 minutes?
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we will cut
8 it short, I mean cut five or six questions out, because they were already
9 covered in a way, so I think that our cross-examination will be a bit
10 shorter than planned.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: By how much?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] According to my estimate, Your
13 Honours, I think we will need 30 to 35 minutes because right now, it's
14 very hard for me to say exactly how much.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. Madam Fauveau, are you in a position
16 to go ahead with your cross-examination now? Because you said you needed
17 20 minutes, no?
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In that case, I
19 would like to discuss this with my colleague, Mr. Stojanovic, to see if
20 that's all right to him. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't make any
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, if you wish to have a tete-a-tete,
23 consultation, of course, please do.
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. It seems we are going ahead with the Miletic
1 Defence team cross-examination. Madam Fauveau, if you could introduce
3 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
4 Q. Hello, my name is Natacha Fauveau Ivanovic and I represent General
5 Miletic. I would like to ask you a few questions relating to the 11th of
6 July 1995, at the time you were going on the road to [indiscernible]
7 Pribicevac, were you?
8 A. Yes. I would like to apologise. We cannot really see each other.
9 I'm just perhaps I can ask the gentleman because I'm just answering blind
10 like this. Well, the answer is yes.
11 Q. And when you were on this road, the NATO planes were flying over
12 the area, weren't they?
13 A. If we are thinking about the 11th, at one point, they were flying
14 over, not the whole day. I wouldn't say that.
15 Q. At one point in time they were dropping bombs; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know whether these bombs killed anyone?
18 A. I don't know that information. I know people were killed in that
19 action, but I don't have any specific facts, whether this was from bombs
20 or in fighting.
21 Q. But at any rate, some bombs fell not very far from your positions;
22 is that right?
23 A. I tried to explain that before. Practically all the bombs, the
24 bulk of the bombs, dropped, I believe, missing the target that was
25 intended, the command, and where the General Mladic was present as well,
1 this was the 3rd Battalion command. Since we were at a higher elevation,
2 some two kilometres away from the command, the bulk of the bombs actually
3 dropped in our immediate vicinity, having missed their target. I believe
4 that they were the target.
5 Q. I would now like to ask you a few questions about the night of the
6 13th in Bratunac. During that night, you heard shots, didn't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But you don't know whether anyone was killed?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. And just before you heard these shots, you heard screams. Can you
11 determine whether those cries came from Muslim or Serb prisoners or was it
13 A. I would just call that shouts, cries sounds very different. I
14 think they were just shouts or yells, from the Muslims. Having recognised
15 the words Glogovci, the people from Glogova, I know that Glogova is an
16 ethnically homogeneous place.
17 Q. A cry for rebellion --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Madam Fauveau needs to wait for the end of the
19 English translation before putting her question in French.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, we have had some overlapping, if
21 could you repeat your question, please.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'll repeat the question.
23 Q. So, can we say that the shouts that you heard were a sort of a
24 call for a rebellion?
25 A. That's how I understood it.
1 Q. When you testified in the Blagojevic case, 24th of May 2005, this
2 is on page 9799, you spoke of the end of the evacuation of Potocari of the
3 Muslim population of Potocari, and you indicated that you left with
4 Colonel Jankovic from Potocari heading towards Srebrenica to see if there
5 were other people who wanted to be transported towards Kladanj.
6 A. Just a correction. I received translation with Colonel Jankovic,
7 and this is not correct, went in the direction of Srebrenica.
8 Q. Sorry, my mistake. So you personally indeed left in the direction
9 of Srebrenica from Potocari?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And it was to see whether there was still people, Muslims, who
12 wished to leave, who wished to be evacuated from the region?
13 A. I would say see and inform them about what we were given. We told
14 them about the assignment.
15 Q. Indeed, you were to tell them that if they wanted to be
16 evacuated,, they had to report to a specific bridge the next morning?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's a misstatement of his evidence.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau?
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] -- Statement, I'm asking if that was
20 the information he was to give to these people. This is a
21 cross-examination so I'm entitled to put these questions --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] -- leading questions.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: She's not allowed to misstate his evidence. He's
25 been very clear on that point. She can ask him if there is any further
1 information such as what she said, but she cannot put words in his mouth
2 that he did not put in.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: But where is the misstatement? Because I don't
4 think that is clear in Madam Fauveau's mind.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, he has always said that it was his job to go
6 inform people that he saw that they should go to the checkpoint in
7 Potocari to be transported. He has never added the part that she added
8 about if they want to go. I think she can ask him about that, but she
9 cannot put words in his mouth that he hasn't said before.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not claiming that
12 the witness said that. I'm asking him if that indeed was the case.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are all in agreement here that forget about the
14 question of whether they wanted or did not want to go, but please answer
15 Madam Fauveau's question. Will you repeat it, Madam Fauveau? Because I
16 think we have lost track.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Sir, when you went from Potocari to Srebrenica, was your
19 assignment to say to people who wished to leave, who wanted to be
20 evacuated, that the buses would be in a specific place the next morning
21 and that people had to be at that spot if they wished to be evacuated?
22 A. The exact order, and I recall it, was that after the questions do
23 I -- do I, and my colleague have a vehicle, then we would go in the
24 direction of Srebrenica, not Srebrenica itself. We were told to go into
25 the depth, in the direction of Srebrenica, and if groups were arriving,
1 conditionally speaking, people, meaning men, women, children, that they
2 should assemble without a panic at the gathering point in Potocari, and
3 that the next day, transport will be organised, that buses will come, and
4 nobody should be left behind and there should be no room for panic. And
5 this is what we did. And this is what I said.
6 Q. Indeed, you didn't assemble these people. You didn't collect them
7 and transport them yourself to this place?
8 A. Well, the answer imposes itself, that I went with my colleague, a
9 police officer, and we were told to inform them, not to assemble them or
10 transport them. You cannot say assemble them. Perhaps they weren't even
11 there. Just the information.
12 Q. And none of these people were forced to go to this place?
13 A. Absolutely no. I'm talking about my assignment.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show the witness Exhibit
16 Q. Before this exhibit arrives, is it true that when you were in
17 Potocari on the 12th and 13th of July 1995, you didn't see that the Muslim
18 population was mistreated or abused?
19 A. I didn't see any abuse or mistreatment.
20 Q. Sir, I believe you've seen this exhibit when you testified in the
21 Blagojevic case. This is a - can we show the foot of the page, please -
22 of a report of the 13th of July 1995, sent on the 14th of July at
23 midnight, 0030 hours, from Colonel Jankovic. If you could look at the
24 last paragraph of this exhibit. And in particular, the final two lines of
25 this paragraph, it appears in this exhibit, at least Colonel Jankovic was
1 convinced that the Muslim population had received adequate treatment in
2 Potocari. Do you agree with this?
3 A. We can see here that we are talking about the 13th, in the
4 evening. I agree with that. This is what I'm talking about. I answered
5 that a couple of seconds ago, that I didn't see any beating, anything
6 unusual. I answered your question.
7 Q. Okay. You mentioned today, this was on page 23, lines 21 and --
8 20 and 21, the white house where the men were taken separately. Can you
9 tell me, when you heard this expression for the first time, the white
11 A. I've never heard the term "white house." Maybe in my statements
12 they asked me to explain about the building, where it was, what does it
13 look like, what is the colour, whether it's yellow, blue, green, white. I
14 tried to explain that it was a white house. But I don't know where this
15 term "white house" comes from. I don't understand you.
16 Q. So today, you clearly stated, and I quote from the record, page
17 23, lines 20 to 21, "[In English] There was the white house."
18 [Interpretation] Indeed, so it's the first -- today is the first time that
19 you mention the white house, that you use that term. So I'd like to know
20 if someone spoke to you about the white house between your testimony in
21 2004 and today.
22 A. I don't think you understood my answer. I said that they asked me
23 where these men were, so I repeat, I had to explain the building where it
24 was near what, and the building, let's say the house, if it was a house,
25 the colour of the house, the yard. I explained everything in detail.
1 So it's not true that I have just heard the term "white house." I
2 described it like that in 2004, how that house looks like, that it's white
3 in colour, that it has a yard around it and so on, so I don't want to take
4 up any more time.
5 Q. Well, precisely. I'll read what you said in 2004. "[In English]
6 So it's on the right-hand side, there was a big building there too. Now,
7 was it a house or what kind of building it was, a factory, whatever, I
8 don't know. They were brought into the yard of the particular building."
9 [Interpretation] So back then, you didn't -- you weren't able to
10 determine whether it was a house or a factory. Today, you used the term,
11 the "white house," so I'm asking you once again, do you recall that
12 someone, when you spoke with the Prosecutor here in The Hague or in BH,
13 someone spoke to you about the "white house"?
14 A. I absolutely with that -- if you go further somewhere in the
15 statement you must have that, that the photograph of that house was shown
16 to me, that I recognised it, that there was talk about baggage left at the
17 gates. I was shown a photograph of that house, and I had to establish
18 that it was that house, and that I clearly saw it in the photograph. I
19 think the misunderstanding is there, but "white house" doesn't mean
20 anything to me. But it was white, the majority of them were white.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: Your Honour, another two or three minutes, perhaps
22 we can end tomorrow?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll adjourn here. There is no problem. You
24 will continue tomorrow, Madam Fauveau. And then you, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 Tomorrow, the sitting is in the afternoon, as you -- I'm sure you are
1 aware. And we'll finish with this witness and have the next one ready,
2 please. Thank you.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of
5 November, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.