Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18009

 1                          Wednesday, 21 November 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon, Madam Registrar.  If you could call

 7    the case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9    IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11            All the accused are here.

12            From the Defence teams I only notice the absence of Mr. Ostojic.

13    What's become of Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Meek?

14            MR. MEEK:  I'm sorry, Your Honour?

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  What's become of Mr. Ostojic?

16            MR. MEEK:  Your Honour, Mr. Ostojic is in Chicago, and he should

17    be back Monday.  He had some personal affairs to attend to.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

19            The Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Nicholls.

20            The witness is already in his place.  Good afternoon to you.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22                          WITNESS:  MILE JANJIC [Resumed]

23                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  And we are going to proceed with your testimony.

25    You're still testifying of course pursuant to the solemn declaration that

Page 18010

 1    you made yesterday.

 2            Madam Fauveau?

 3            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                          Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau: [Continued]

 5       Q.   Sir, in the Blagojevic case, when you testified in 2004, this was

 6    on page 9845, when you talked about the transport of men on the 12th of

 7    July 1995, which took place on the 12th of July 1995, you said that you

 8    did not know how many people exactly had boarded the buses but there were

 9    over 50 people per bus; is that right?  Do you remember that that is what

10    you said in your testimony?

11       A.   Yes.  That more than 50 were boarded.

12       Q.   Yesterday, on page 22 of the transcript, you said that there were

13    70 people and not 50.  I understand that 70 is over 50, but this is quite

14    an exact figure.  Why didn't you mention the fact that there were 70

15    people in the Blagojevic case?

16       A.   Well, I wasn't asked to go into detail.  In that testimony it was

17    said over 50.  Well 51 is over 50 too but I tried to be helpful here and

18    explain how it was since I was there, and I'm sure that this is how it

19    was.

20       Q.   All right.  Nonetheless, in the Blagojevic case, you did say or

21    you mentioned that there were 50 people, and more than 50, and you are

22    saying today that the figure is higher.  How come that three years after

23    your testimony, you are able to be more accurate than you were then?

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Asked and answered.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  You are right.  And even yesterday, he said that it

Page 18011

 1    was between 50 and 70.  He couldn't be quite sure.  So I think we have

 2    covered that.

 3            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I agree that the

 4    witness did say this yesterday, but in the Blagojevic case, the witness

 5    never mentioned the figure of 70, so my question runs as follows:  How

 6    come that this figure has now come to the forefront.  But I shall not

 7    belabour the point and I have no further questions.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam Fauveau.

 9            Mr. Stojanovic?

10            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

11                          Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

12       Q.   Good afternoon, witness.

13       A.   Good afternoon.

14       Q.   My name is Miodrag Stojanovic and together with my colleagues I

15    defend Ljubomir Borovcanin.  I should like to go through several documents

16    in order to clarify some matters.  If my understanding is correct, based

17    on what you said yesterday, the whole day on the 12th and the 13th of

18    July, you were in Potocari recording the numbers of the population being

19    evacuated; is that right?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   You went to perform this assignment because Momir Nikolic told you

22    to report to Colonel Jankovic who in turn issued you with this specific

23    order; is that right?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   From that point on, when you reported to Colonel Jankovic, and you

Page 18012

 1    spoke of this in the Blagojevic case at page 9766 and 9767, you understood

 2    yourself to be subordinated to Colonel Jankovic in carrying out this

 3    specific assignment that was given to you?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   In those two days, namely the 12th and the 13th, in Potocari, did

 6    you see Colonel Jankovic together with Major or Captain Momir Nikolic?

 7       A.   I can't remember that.

 8       Q.   Will you tell me more closely what your personal understanding

 9    was?  What sort of duties did Colonel Jankovic carry out in Potocari on

10    the 12th and the 13th?  What was your impression as to his tasks?

11       A.   I explained this in great detail.  I don't know if there is any

12    need for me to repeat what I said.  I told you what he did, what I saw him

13    do.  I didn't give you my impressions.  I told you what he did, in what

14    way, and for how long and I still stand by that.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Janjic and Mr. Stojanovic, please allow a short

16    pause between question and answer because there was some overlapping

17    already, and I would like to avoid it as much as we can.

18            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19       Q.   Let us try and be mindful of that, both of us, because we speak

20    the same language.  I would like us to look at Defence Exhibit 4D00016.

21    We already had an opportunity to look at the document.  This is the plea

22    agreement and statement of facts of Momir Nikolic.  We need to look at

23    item 5 of his statement which is at page 2 of both the English and B/C/S

24    versions.  Let us focus on that part of his statement.

25            Before this appears on our screens, I want to take you back to

Page 18013

 1    what you told us about the position of Colonel Jankovic.  Let us clarify

 2    any remaining dilemmas that there may be.  Can we please have item 5 on

 3    the screen?  Thank you.

 4            Sir, please look at the first paragraph where Momir Nikolic states

 5    the following when speaking of the 12th of July and of the meeting at

 6    Fontana.  That was the third meeting.  And he says the following:  "After

 7    the third meeting," do you see that in front of you?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Item 5, paragraph 1 --

10       A.   Well, the first paragraph doesn't start with that sentence.

11       Q.   That's the second sentence.  Do you see that now?

12       A.   After?

13       Q.  "After the third meeting Colonel Jankovic came out of the Hotel

14    Fontana and told me to coordinate the transportation of all women and

15    children and the separation of able-bodied Muslim men."

16            Do you see that?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Would you agree with me, in view of what you personally know, and

19    in view of what you've just read, that at that time, Jankovic was both by

20    rank and by virtue of his position there, superior to Momir Nikolic?

21       A.   I don't want to comment upon that.  I didn't hear of this, of this

22    encounter of theirs and these comments made.  I don't want to comment or

23    speculate.

24       Q.   You say you don't want to speculate or comment upon that.  I would

25    take this as your position in terms of you not knowing anything about it

Page 18014

 1    and that's why you don't want to comment upon that?

 2       A.   Whatever I would have to say about that would be speculation.  I

 3    have no knowledge of this.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Would I be right in saying that Colonel Jankovic

 5    issued you with that particular assignment because he wanted to arrive at

 6    the number of the evacuated population through counting the people leaving

 7    Potocari?

 8       A.   He issued me with a specific assignment, which I accepted, which I

 9    did.  Now, as to what his initial or final goal may have been, I don't

10    know.  I can't tell you.

11       Q.   Could we have a look at the same document but the following page,

12    and the following paragraph of item 6 of the plea agreement by Momir

13    Nikolic?  And that's page 3.

14            Let us look at the last sentence of the first paragraph where

15    Momir Nikolic states the following:  He lists the units that were in

16    Potocari on that day, and he goes on to say that in coordination, in

17    coordinated action with these units, he coordinated and monitored the

18    transportation of women and children to Kladanj and the separation and

19    detention of able-bodied Muslim men.  Do you see this portion of his

20    statement?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   In your testimony in the Blagojevic case, at page 9781, lines 10

23    to 21, you said that on the 12th of July you saw Momir Nikolic in

24    Potocari.  Do you recall that?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 18015

 1       Q.   Is there a single reason why you should not believe Momir Nikolic

 2    and his statement which concerns himself?

 3       A.   There is a thousand reasons why I should not believe Momir

 4    Nikolic.  I really cannot comment upon this.  I don't see how I could

 5    comment upon that.

 6       Q.   I'm quite content with your answer, and I don't want to you

 7    comment upon matters you are unable to comment upon.  If you look at the

 8    preceding line, it says there that this coordinated action and monitoring

 9    was carried out by Momir Nikolic in relation to the units that he listed

10    there, and among them there is the military police of the Bratunac Brigade

11    as well.  Do you see that?

12       A.   Yes, I do.  Military police of the Bratunac Brigade.  And the

13    civilian police with the Alsatians.  Is that what you're referring to?

14       Q.   Yes.  On the basis of your knowledge and on the basis of what you

15    saw, did the military police of the Bratunac Brigade take part in the

16    activities during those two days in separating the able-bodied Muslim men

17    in Potocari?

18       A.   I was present throughout the two days, and I can state with

19    responsibility that the military police did not participate in any way in

20    separating the able-bodied Muslim men from women, as you put it.  Now, it

21    is true that the military police was present there for those two days and

22    that they had indeed their assignments.

23       Q.   If you had assignments, as you put it a moment ago, can you tell

24    us what were these specific assignments that they had based on what you

25    saw and what you know?

Page 18016

 1       A.   As far as the specific assignments are concerned, I will start by

 2    myself and will then refer to my colleagues.  I told you what I did those

 3    two days.  I'm a military police man and that was my duty.  That's how I

 4    see it.  I explained extensively that for the first hour, hour and a half

 5    or two, the time isn't that important, the counting, meaning the job that

 6    I did, was also done by other colleagues.

 7            After that, I explained that from that same locality, my

 8    colleagues, policemen, sat in a car and went to somewhere that I didn't

 9    know where they were going at the time.  That was an assignment in my

10    view.  I also mentioned that the following day, the 13th, they were

11    escorting buses to Bratunac.  And I believe that I've mentioned sufficient

12    assignments.  These are the assignments I knew of and I observed.

13       Q.   If I told you that thanks to the Prosecution we are in possession

14    of statements by several members of the military police of the Bratunac

15    Brigade, I will mention only some, Rankic Petko, Bucalina Desimir, Francic

16    Zlatko, who claimed that on the 12th of July, they had received an order

17    from Momir Nikolic to do the following:  From the Zuti Most, the Yellow

18    Bridge where I quote, they were providing security to the bridge, to go to

19    Potocari and assist their colleagues from the military police and members

20    of the DutchBat, in order to make sure that the Muslim population could

21    board buses without delay, would these statements refresh your memory as

22    to their participation in the assignments and the carrying out of these

23    obligations given by Momir Nikolic?

24       A.   Let me tell you this:  I would not wish to comment upon the

25    statements of the policemen that you refer to.  You're repeating merely

Page 18017

 1    what I said, and that's that the military police helped escort the buses

 2    to Bratunac.  I said that a couple of seconds ago.  That's at least how I

 3    understood what you said, that at some point, a larger number of the

 4    military police, not only myself, were engaged in counting the population

 5    boarding the buses.  I don't recall seeing the individuals you referred

 6    to.

 7       Q.   We heard that, but the question was not to comment upon his

 8    statement.  My question was whether you would find this a confirmation of

 9    what you remember or whether this would refresh your memory, whether you

10    saw that members of the military police boarded the Muslim population

11    without delay on to buses, thus assisting members of the DutchBat in doing

12    the same thing, yes or no?

13       A.   Sir, the individuals you refer to were not members of the military

14    police, in terms of paper work, yes, but they were never part of the

15    military police I was a member of, and believe me when I tell you that

16    they weren't there on that day.  Their position was at Zuti Most.  They

17    may have gone there out of curiosity but I didn't see them.

18       Q.   Therefore, you want to tell us -- first of all tell us by name, do

19    you know the three individuals?

20       A.   Zlatko Francic, professor or teacher, Jovic [phoen] should also be

21    among them.  The individuals who were listed as members of the military

22    police, but they never entered the military police building.  I never saw

23    them there.  They're quite clearly -- they were stationed at Zuti Most

24    where UNPROFOR soldiers passed.  I don't know much about that but they

25    worked at the -- at Zuti Most at the UNPROFOR check-point there.

Page 18018

 1       Q.   Was Momir Nikolic in a position to issue orders to these persons

 2    to go to Potocari and assist to DutchBat in facilitating the departure of

 3    Muslim population without delay and boarding them on to buses?  Could

 4    Momir Nikolic issue such an order to them?

 5       A.   I don't know about that order.  But I know that I never saw it,

 6    and I can't help you in answering whether he was in a position to issue

 7    such an order.  I really don't know.

 8       Q.   Do you know a soldier from the platoon of the military police of

 9    the Bratunac Brigade by the name of Nenad Djokic?

10       A.   I know him and I believe that I have mentioned him in my

11    statements.  Yes, I did mention his name and I know him very well.

12       Q.   On the 12th and 13th of July, did you see him at Potocari?

13       A.   I spent a night with him, one of the nights, at the Fontana Hotel.

14    I remember him well.  But I cannot say whether I saw him at Potocari.  I

15    cannot remember now.

16       Q.   If I repeat to you that in this very courtroom, we heard the

17    testimony of a protected witness and it was on November 6, 2006, on page

18    3608, and the brother of that person was singled out at Potocari, and this

19    separation was performed by Nenad Djokic.  My question would be whether

20    such a testimony would refresh your memory whether or not it was possible

21    that Nenad Djokic, as member of the military police of Bratunac Brigade,

22    participated in the separation of able-bodied Muslim men?

23       A.   As for Nenad Djokic, I gave you my answer.  I was with him during

24    the entire evening in front of the Fontana, in the night of the 12th to

25    the 13th, and this is all I can tell you about Nenad Djokic.  Whether or

Page 18019

 1    not he was in the position to do this or that, I cannot speculate.

 2       Q.   You will agree with me, then, that you simply cannot rule out the

 3    possibility that that witness told the truth, because you didn't see him?

 4       A.   I apologise but if I may, I would not venture into commenting the

 5    statement of that witness.  I cannot rule it out, but I cannot say

 6    anything else about it either.  I cannot comment.

 7       Q.   You have mentioned the name of Milan Gvozdenovic, do you remember?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we just get a spelling of that so we can

10    clear it up?  It's a difficult one.

11            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We'll try to go slower,

12    Gvozdenovic, G-V-O-Z-D-E-N-O-V-I-C, Milan.  Thank you.  I'll repeat once

13    more for the transcript.  Gvozdenovic.

14       Q.   Can we agree that Milan Gvozdenovic was a member of the platoon of

15    the military police of the Bratunac Brigade and that on July 12th and

16    13th, he was in Potocari?

17       A.   He was a member of the military police platoon, yes, I agree.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  There was a second part to the question, whether he

19    was in Potocari, whether you saw him in Potocari.  Mr. Janjic, did you see

20    him in Potocari on the 12th and 13th?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may not -- not have given a

22    complete answer.  I understood the question to be whether he was there all

23    day on the 12th and the 13th.  And yes, I know him, he was there on the

24    12th and the 13th, but I cannot say whether he was there all day on those

25    dates stated but he was there.

Page 18020

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   Do we agree that at the times you saw him, he also was in -- he

 4    also participated in the recording of the persons leaving Potocari?

 5       A.   I don't remember whether he was performing that task, whether he

 6    assisted me in the first hour and a half, whether he was part of that

 7    group, because I said that they didn't all do that, but I'm sure that he

 8    was present.

 9       Q.   Did he, at any moment, work on the registering of the number of

10    people leaving Potocari, as you did?

11       A.   He was present but I don't remember.  But we are talking only

12    about an hour and a half or two hours on the 12th.  At the time, some

13    other members of the police were engaged in that activity.

14       Q.   Who was entitled, in the system, to issue him an order to carry

15    out certain assignments in Potocari?

16       A.   I cannot testify about the system of command, because yesterday it

17    was mentioned that it may not be normal, that the chain of command, when

18    we were mentioning Momir Nikolic, to my understanding the commander of the

19    platoon could have done that, Momir Nikolic or the deputy could have given

20    an order to us, police, military policemen, and I wouldn't like to go

21    further.

22       Q.   I have in front of me the transcript of your statement given on

23    February the 5th, 2007, to the Public Prosecution Office of

24    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  On page 18 of the B/C/S version, you see said, "I

25    forgot to say that all the time, with me, Gvozdenovic, Milan participated

Page 18021

 1    in the counting, and he submitted a list of that counting.  He was there.

 2    I remember now."

 3            Does this part of your statement given on the 5th of February

 4    remind you whether or not this member of the Bratunac Brigade was --

 5    engaged in certain activities in Potocari, namely the counting of people?

 6       A.   I understood your question.  I mentioned the counting but I -- I

 7    was counting.  I didn't mean to say that he was counting.  While I was

 8    there counting, I remember that Milan Gvozdenovic was there, and then I go

 9    on to elaborate that I contacted him and that I -- that we had some common

10    tasks, but what you are saying must have been said subsequently.

11       Q.   Do you know that by a decision of this Court, which is in force,

12    Colonel Blagojevic was pronounced guilty because members of the military

13    police of the Bratunac Brigade participated in the separation of persons?

14    Have you read that, that decision?

15       A.   No, I haven't.  I don't -- I'm not even familiar with the

16    Prosecution -- with the indictment, that is.

17       Q.   I'm not going to ask you about this any further.  Did you on that

18    day, July the 12th, in Potocari, see other members of the Bratunac

19    Brigade, to be more concrete, the 2nd and 3rd Battalion of that brigade?

20       A.   I have given detailed statements about that.  Briefly, in passing

21    by, I think you have it all in detail.  I don't want to take away your

22    precious time.

23       Q.   Then your answer would be "Yes, I saw them on July 12th, the way I

24    have described in more detail earlier"?

25       A.   Yes, if you add that comment, as I described in more detail

Page 18022

 1    earlier, yes.

 2       Q.   Let us now take a look at Exhibit number P00220.  It's a document

 3    that we were able to see yesterday.  The log of the military police of the

 4    Bratunac Brigade, dated July 12 and 13th, the B/C/S version page 16, ERN

 5    number 00663925, page 13 [Realtime transcript read in error "16"] of the

 6    English version.  And while we are waiting for this to be put on the

 7    screen, I'll remind you that this is the document that you saw yesterday

 8    when you were questioned by the Defence of Mr. Nikolic.

 9            In the English version it's page 13 because it seems that the

10    transcript reads page 16.  So it's actually page 13.  Can you see it in

11    front of you?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   You spoke about this yesterday and if I remember well, you said

14    that some information here is not correct, such as, that you personally,

15    on those days, July the 12th and 13th, were not on the bridge; is that

16    correct?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   You also said that you think that this log was written

19    subsequently, after the events.  Do you remember?

20       A.   I stated my opinion.  I said that this may be dated wrongly, but

21    this is only my opinion.

22       Q.   So you think that this was actually written subsequently, after

23    the event?

24       A.   I think that the content of this entry is not correct and I said

25    why I think so.  And I stand by that opinion that I uttered.

Page 18023

 1       Q.   And then to continue, do you still think that this was done after

 2    the event as you said yesterday?

 3       A.   I said so even today.  Either the date is wrong or the information

 4    transmitted is wrong.  I can't explain it.  But there is -- there are

 5    errors in the text.  I cannot say more because I have no knowledge about

 6    it.

 7       Q.   What I want to ask you is:  To your knowledge, can you explain in

 8    any way if this reads: "The police was engaged in the securing of UNHCR,"

 9    what can this be about?

10       A.   I answered yesterday, I can repeat if you --

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  [Microphone not activated] Mr. Stojanovic, yesterday

12    he made it very clear that he ruled out in an absolute manner any

13    intervention or any protection directed towards UNHCR.  So there is no

14    point in asking him because that has already been ruled out already.

15            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow, I

16    have this part of the witness's statement that he gave yesterday in front

17    of me, but I would like to hear whether this is his opinion or whether

18    this is his precise knowledge because he knew where exactly each military

19    police member was at any given moment.

20       Q.   So, is this your opinion, sir, or do you know that this didn't

21    happen that way?

22       A.   If you read my statement, it will be all clear to you.  So I must

23    repeat what I said:  I have no knowledge about the UNHCR.  And for me to

24    speculate about that organisation would be speculation.

25       Q.   Thank you.  I will never ask to you speculate, only to say

Page 18024

 1    something with which you can help us.  And the following:  The police

 2    worked on the handing over of the Muslim population to the Serbian

 3    fighters at Bratunac.  You spoke about this yesterday.  And I'm asking you

 4    again:  Do you say -- do you say once more that you know nothing about

 5    that, that you don't know what happened?  Is this your answer?

 6       A.   I don't believe I understand you.  I'm sorry.

 7       Q.   In a simplified manner, what this reads here, about what you can

 8    read here, is your answer this didn't happen or I don't know if it

 9    happened?

10       A.   You mean this handing over of the Muslim population from

11    Srebrenica on Zuti Most to the Serbian fighters in Bratunac?  It is

12    unclear to me.  This is unclear to me.  I don't know what this means.  It

13    is unclear, "To the Serbian fighters in Bratunac?"  So literally, if I

14    take it literally, then there are some Serbian fighters and somebody is

15    being handed over to them.  This is unclear to me.

16       Q.   As this isn't clear to you, I will not continue asking questions

17    about it.  You spoke about this yesterday.  I won't continue along these

18    lines.  Let us now take a look at Exhibit P01549.  P01549.  And while this

19    is being put on the screen, let me say that this is an aerial photograph

20    of the industrial zone in Potocari, taken on July 12th, 1995, at 1400

21    hours, and before we can see it I would like to ask you, on July 12th,

22    1995, around 1400 hours, you had a drink in Potocari; is that correct?  Is

23    it correct timewise?

24       A.   Yes.

25            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can I just clarify that this image means it was

Page 18025

 1    taken around 1400 hours.  That's what that squiggly mark means from the

 2    imagery provider, just to remind us all.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 4            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm being told that

 5    on page 16, line 23 of the transcript, a part of the witness's testimony

 6    is not reflected correctly.  So that -- what reads here, "Around 1400

 7    hours he had a drink in Potocari," that was not my question.  My question

 8    was whether the witness was there at that time.

 9            Can I ask the usher to provide the witness with the pencil in

10    order for to us look at some of the details together?

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  How did this drink come into the transcript?

12            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you are asking me, I perhaps

13    may have taken a sip of water from my glass and that may have been the

14    reason for it.

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  In the B/C/S there is only

16    a one-letter difference in the words.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  I see.  It's a strange language, B/C/S.

18            Yes, your next question.  So we have this photo here which

19    Mr. McCloskey has indicated shows the Potocari industrial area at around

20    1400 hours.  So your question, Mr. Stojanovic?

21            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22       Q.   Sir, did you get your bearings on this photograph?

23       A.   I don't want to disappoints you, but I really don't find any of

24    this clear.

25       Q.   Let us try to go through this together, and we'll see if this

Page 18026

 1    works out.  Do you see the white line in the middle, which is the road

 2    through the industrial zone in Potocari?  If at the end of this line you

 3    can place the letter B?

 4       A.   Where?

 5       Q.   On the right-hand side, can you place the letter B on the

 6    right-hand side, in the -- on the bottom right-hand side corner?  Please

 7    place the letter B there.

 8       A.   Next to the number 01 in red?

 9       Q.   Yes.  That would be the direction toward Bratunac?

10       A.   [Marks]

11       Q.   In the upper corner, can you place the letter S for Srebrenica?

12       A.   [Marks]

13       Q.   Would this help you to orientate yourself?  Do you see the

14    markings and if you see the place where there are some people there, would

15    that help you to get your bearings on this photograph?

16       A.   I really apologise but I don't see any of what you've been telling

17    me.  Could you guide me more closely?

18       Q.   In the central part of the photograph, do you see the black trace

19    above which, in English, it is written "people"?  The black trace which

20    practically crosses the white line, do you see that?  That's precisely in

21    the centre of the photograph.

22       A.   You said in English, and I don't speak English, "People."

23       Q.   Do you see the black trace cutting or running across the white

24    line?  It's right at the centre of the photograph.

25       A.   Can we -- can I place a dot for us to see whether we are speaking

Page 18027

 1    of the same thing?  [Marks]

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's put it more simply.  Exactly.  Where you put

 3    that dot right above it, there is a box and in it there are -- there is a

 4    word in English containing six letters, PEOPLE.  That's where or the spot

 5    that Mr. Stojanovic is referring you to.

 6            Correct, Mr. Stojanovic?

 7            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, let's proceed from there.  Now your question.

 9            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, in order to be of

10    assistance to the witness and to ourselves, let's pinpoint another

11    location.

12       Q.   In the lower left-hand corner, you see a building, and in front of

13    it there are buses.  It's a wider area which was referred to here as the

14    bus station or the repair station and such like in Srebrenica or, rather,

15    in Potocari.  Can you orientate yourself now as to what was exactly

16    photographed here?

17       A.   I really apologise but I cannot claim with certainty that it's all

18    clear to me.  It would be easier for me to draw for myself the position,

19    the building, whatever you want me to.  I can draw it.  My movements

20    throughout the day in metres and everything.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let me try and help you both here.  Now, if you

22    divide the photo into four squares, the lower square or the last square in

23    the bottom to the left, you see two arrows pointing up and they are shaded

24    in a kind of a dirty pink colour.

25            Next to those two arrows, there is a rectangular white box with a

Page 18028

 1    letter -- with a word in English, saying "trucks," I'll spell it for you

 2    as it is, TRUCKS.  And an indicator, and an indicator there.  This is the

 3    other spot that Mr. Stojanovic wants to you concentrate on.

 4            Now, do you wish to direct the witness to any other particular

 5    spot on this photo, Mr. Stojanovic?  And I'll do it for you.

 6            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours -- Your

 7    Honour.  I will try and see if we can work upon that.

 8       Q.   Can you help us now, having these landmarks in mind, and indicate

 9    with an X the place where you were or place a circle on roughly the place

10    where you were on the 12th of July?

11       A.   I apologise but this isn't clear to me at all.  The photograph is

12    not clear to me, and I was never able to orientate myself on any maps.  I

13    can try but I need someone's assistance.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  There is another photo which shows a

15    bigger -- the bigger area with the UN DutchBat compound clearly visible,

16    and some -- and the factories nearby and some of the houses nearby.  I

17    think if we use that photo and then we zoom in and out as required, it

18    will help the witness orient himself better, because this may -- I agree

19    with him, it may be confusing.

20            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let us try it this

21    way, then.  Unless we are mistaken, this is a photograph from the

22    collection we received from Mr. Ruez, P02103, P02103, photograph number 6

23    or 7, I'm not sure but I believe this allows us to have a better view.

24    Perhaps that might help.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  If we see number 6, photo number 6,.

Page 18029

 1            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps then we can say that we

 2    won't be needing this photograph any more.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Again, you have to agree to using photo because I

 4    can't impose on you to use any particular photo, but I think it will be

 5    more helpful if he's shown photo number 6.

 6            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.

 7                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you need to save this photo?  I don't think there

 9    is any need for it because all we have there is --

10            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour.  We won't be

11    needing this photograph, and we won't be pursuing these questions since

12    the witness obviously is having a hard time working on this.

13            Your Honours, if we could have a look at the photograph number 7,

14    we already used it while examining a witness here.  This might assist the

15    witness in getting his bearings.

16       Q.   Sir, you will have before you a new photograph now, where the

17    perspective will be different so that might help.  Can this photograph

18    help you to orient yourself and to establish the area of your movement on

19    the 12th of July?

20       A.   I've been trying to recognise --

21       Q.   If I told you that in the bottom part of it was the direction to

22    Srebrenica and at the top part, close to the UN base, was the direction to

23    Zuti Most and Bratunac, would that assist you?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   In that case, I'll ask you to take that pencil and to indicate the

Page 18030

 1    area where you were on the 12th of July.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

 3            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we just make sure he can orient himself

 4    because sometimes this is just hard for people to do.  I just --

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We can do that easily.  Can you identify the

 6    UN DutchBat compound there on that photo and place an arrow next to it or

 7    an X next to it.

 8            THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Now, if you go to the top right-hand corner,

10    the extreme top right-hand corner, you see the road there.  That road

11    leads to where, to Srebrenica or to Bratunac?

12            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   If you can place the letter B where this part of the road toward

14    Bratunac ends on the photograph?

15       A.   If you tell me that Bratunac is in the top right-hand side corner,

16    if you tell me that, because I don't recognise it.

17       Q.   I shouldn't be the one telling you that.  We can only work this

18    way if we agree and only if you're certain of it, can you place a marking?

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Mr. Janjic, if you are in a car driving

20    from Bratunac to Srebrenica, and you come to this road, you're driving in

21    the direction of Srebrenica, would UN Dutch compound be to your left or to

22    your right?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Going from Bratunac, on the

24    left-hand side, there is a large factory, in one of those there was a

25    large UN base, and further down the road towards Srebrenica there is

Page 18031

 1    another factory on the left.  They might even be physically next to each

 2    other, whether it was a battery manufacturing factory or cement, but they

 3    were both on the left-hand side as one goes towards Srebrenica.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So basically, if this is your position, and I

 5    put it to you that you are 100 per cent correct, then the road which you

 6    can barely see at the top right-hand corner of this photo is the road

 7    which takes you to where?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I even indicated it that way, if you

 9    can see it.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  So that is the road to Srebrenica or to Bratunac?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's clear to me.  X is the road

12    to Bratunac, and I'm referring to the last X that I placed.  That's the

13    road to Bratunac.  Now it's clear to me, thank you.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  If you can change that last X into a B, please?

15            THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So the consequence of that is that the road

17    that you see in the left-hand corner now, bottom of the photo, left,

18    bottom left corner of the photo, that is the road to takes to you

19    Srebrenica; isn't that correct?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I may even mark it.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  So if you can put an S there, please?

22            THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  You're being very kind and very

24    cooperative.

25            Now, Mr. Stojanovic, once you have more or less understood what is

Page 18032

 1    shown on this photo, would like you to mark with letters that you will

 2    explain to us your position on the 12th and on the 13th or on the 12th, we

 3    start with the 12th, Mr. Stojanovic?  He is your witness so I wouldn't

 4    like to intervene more than I have.

 5            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I presume that there was

 6    some dynamics of it, that he was moving around, although in his statement

 7    he said that he was located at one site and then had to move a bit, but

 8    I'd like him to place a wider circle indicating the area of his movement

 9    on the 12th of July.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will mark it in any event, but I

12    just want to say that I know the side from which I came.  This is

13    something I can talk about, and I can note, but I don't know about the

14    entire area of my movement.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Use arrows and we will be able to understand

16    what you are indicating.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The most part of the day, I spent

18    from these crossroads and there is a factory here, I can put a letter next

19    to it.  [Marks]

20            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Yes, try to do so.

22       A.   This is a factory and this is a crossroads, and this is a -- there

23    is a white circle, and my movement was hereabouts forward and backward and

24    the like most of the day.

25       Q.   Please put the date the 12th of July above it?

Page 18033

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Put the date and your signature wherever you like,

 2    or your initials wherever you like.  And for the record I'm just

 3    indicating that the witness has made some markings on the photo at between

 4    35 -- at 40 minutes from the square indicating the UN base.

 5            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   So if you could put the date 12th of July above it and in the

 7    lower right corner, please put today's date and your signature.

 8       A.   So I can put both the 12th and the 13th there?

 9       Q.   12th/13th July 1995, above these dots the Court has just explained

10    to you?

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, because I want to make sure that I am

12    understanding the witness well.  What you have marked on this map, is that

13    the position -- your position more or less as it was on the 12th and on

14    the 13th or only on the 12th?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the place where I was both

16    on the 12th and the 13th, one of the locations, but I'm also moved a

17    little further toward Bratunac and I can mark it.  But not further than

18    that, I believe.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then concentrate on one of the corners

20    and put today's date, please.  Today is the 21st.  And your signature.

21            THE WITNESS:  [Marks]  As far as I understood, I'm supposed to put

22    both the 12th and the 13th as dates above those dots.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Go ahead.  Do that.  Just put 12 plus 13,

24    Juli.

25            THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

Page 18034

 1            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   Thank you.  And, please now mark on this photograph, by a circle,

 3    the area where you saw most of the soldiers of the DutchBat on the 12th

 4    and the 13th, on this road.

 5       A.   I cannot do that.  What do you mean most of the soldiers?  I don't

 6    know how many they were.  I don't understand.

 7       Q.   I'll try to be more specific.  Can you mark the area where you saw

 8    the members of the DutchBat moving?

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we did it in blue it might help.

11            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no problem with that.  It

12    may be a good idea.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On both days, I saw UNPROFOR

14    members.  They were moving along the road where I could see them.  They

15    were reaching the imaginary ramp.  They brought water, they carried people

16    on stretchers.  That's what I saw of them.  And they were present on those

17    two days.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Just mark their position on the map, please,

19    in blue.

20            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   The ramp, as you call it.

22       A.   [Marks] I am marking the area that I could see next to me and a

23    little further, and I think that this imaginary ramp was hereabouts, it

24    cannot be seen clearly.

25       Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree with me when I say that the members of

Page 18035

 1    the civilian police that you mentioned on those days were at the places

 2    marked in blue where you said the ramp was?

 3       A.   I don't understand -- or I don't agree that I said members of the

 4    civilian police.

 5       Q.   Members of the Special Police, as you called them, or the

 6    specials, were they at the places that you marked as the position of the

 7    ramp?

 8       A.   As for the Special Police, I mentioned the name of one of its

 9    members, and I mentioned the activities of the other members of the

10    Special Police from the ramp to my area of movement.

11       Q.   Did the officer who you mentioned by name, according to what you

12    saw, was by the ramp as it is marked here?

13       A.   I saw him there, and I saluted him there.

14       Q.   Thank you.  And now, could you help us and say whether the

15    able-bodied men who were separated, according to what you saw, were taken

16    to the same house on the 12th and the 13th?

17       A.   I explained that in detail too.  On the first day, I didn't

18    mention the house.  It was a yard and garden.  And I assumed that some

19    were taken to the house too.  And I added that along the road, now having

20    a map I could even tell where, maybe at the points 12, 13, and even 07 in

21    the -- as shown on the map, were along the road, on the meadow, and I

22    think I could mark the position of that building or facility, as you

23    called it.

24       Q.   Yes.  I would like you to do that.  This was going to be my next

25    question but let's proceed your way.  Do mark it and then I will ask my

Page 18036

 1    question.

 2       A.   Looking from the right, from the direction of Bratunac, close to

 3    this crossroads, marked with the numbers 12 and 13, there is a small road

 4    or path to the right next to the figure 12 in the image, and in the

 5    immediate vicinity, there is a -- there is a gate which is the entrance to

 6    that facility.

 7       Q.   Now I would first like to ask you whether that was the place, the

 8    place of assembly both on the 12th and 13th?

 9       A.   Yes.  They were there, and I also added some information about the

10    13th.

11       Q.   Thank you.  I will finish with this photograph and it is both

12    dated and signed, so that I can -- so that we can thank both you and the

13    usher and save this photograph.

14            Thank you for your assistance.

15            During those two days, did you hear comments from the members of

16    the military or the police that there was a list of war criminals with

17    which the command of the 1st Bratunac Brigade was familiar and that an

18    investigation was to be launched whether someone from that list was among

19    the persons in Potocari?

20       A.   There was some speculation, there were rumours, but I had never

21    heard anyone ordering that, issuing such an order.  There were rumours

22    about that, but I don't know whether that's important.

23       Q.   Let us now together look at Exhibit 4D00015, page 1 of both the

24    B/C/S and English versions, and you will now see on your screen that

25    document.  I would like to ask you one question.  You will see in front of

Page 18037

 1    you a document entitled, "The List of War Criminals Known to the Command

 2    of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade who Have Committed War Crimes in the

 3    Areas of the Municipalities," and they are stated."  You said that people

 4    spoke about that and my question is whether you have heard about the

 5    existence of such a list at any time, and was it -- and whether it was

 6    used in the investigation that was launched?

 7       A.   I have never heard of the existence of a list, and I -- this is

 8    also the first time I've heard that an investigation was conducted.  This

 9    is news to me.

10       Q.   You know nothing about that?

11       A.   Yes, absolutely.

12       Q.   You have already spoken about buses leaving from Potocari toward

13    Bratunac.  The number of buses that you mentioned, was it -- did those

14    buses come at once or did they come in several waves or from time to time?

15    Is it from time to time that the people were being taken away?

16       A.   I answered this question at least three times yesterday.  If you

17    want, I can answer.

18       Q.   I'll be more precise.  You spoke about the 12th, and you were more

19    precise from 10 to 1500 [as interpreted], and you also mentioned the

20    evening hours.  Now I'll ask you about the 13th.  You also mentioned the

21    numbers.  Is -- so now my question is, on the 13th, did the buses come at

22    once, or did they come in waves?

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:

25            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry but with we may want to clarify the 10

Page 18038

 1    to 1500.  I'm not sure that's what he meant.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  He did clarify yesterday, I think, but -- and

 3    precisely because of the same figures.  So yesterday when we spoke about

 4    these numbers, you specified that they were from 10 to 15.  Is that what

 5    you mean, Mr. Stojanovic?  And not -- we were not talking of thousands?

 6            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly, Your Honours.

 7    That's what I said, 10 to 15.  I believe this is only a problem with the

 8    transcript.  The witness and I understand each other.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So go ahead, if you can answer the question,

10    Mr. Janjic, please.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So on the second day, you asked

12    whether they were leaving in groups.  So not as on the first day, 10 to

13    15.  I spoke about this yesterday.  We, during the day, together with the

14    other vehicles, with the trucks, with the women, they were leaving

15    separately.  I mean, the men and the women were separated, to put it

16    clearer.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's not clear.

18            Mr. Stojanovic, can you repeat your question and cut it in

19    different questions so that we know what we are talking about?

20            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try, Your Honour.

21       Q.   Well, will you agree with me when I say that on the second day,

22    the 13th of July, the transportation of the able-bodied men did not take

23    place at once, but on several occasions during that day, July the 13th,

24    1995?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 18039

 1       Q.   And to finish my question, when you arrived on the 13th of July,

 2    to continue carrying out your assignment, what time of day was it?

 3       A.   It was in the morning, as I said, and earlier than on the first

 4    day.  After coming from the Fontana, I cannot state to you precisely but

 5    it was earlier than on the first day.  Around 10.00 or before 10.00, but

 6    now this -- this -- the hour is a conjecture.  Anyway, it was in the

 7    morning and earlier than on the first day.

 8       Q.   I'm asking you this just to understand, because I know what you

 9    were doing.  Is it possible that the buses were already or had already

10    been leaving before you arrived there and before you started counting?

11       A.   I didn't see any buses on the way.  They may have left during the

12    night, maybe, maybe not.  I never saw them so I cannot say whether they

13    had left before I arrived there, and I believe Colonel Jankovic, who came

14    on the next day after me, how that went, who organised that, in whose

15    presence, I don't know.

16       Q.   Thank you.  No more questions.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

18            There are no further cross-examinations.  Do you wish to

19    re-examine the witness?

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

22            Mr. Janjic, we haven't got any further questions for you, which

23    means that we've made it.  You're free to go.  You've finished your

24    testimony.  Our staff will assist you.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, my

25    colleagues, Judge Kwon, Judge Prost, Judge Stole, I would like to thank

Page 18040

 1    you for having come over to give testimony, and we also wish you a safe

 2    journey back home.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And I thank everybody

 4    present.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We will have the break now, and we'll do

 6    the documents, the exhibits, after the break, Mr. McCloskey, is that okay

 7    with you?

 8            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have a 25 minute break.

10                          [The witness withdrew]

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Exhibits?

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have 65 ter number 2963,

15    that previous testimony in the Blagojevic case of this witness.  This

16    witness also identified two still photographs, and they come from a book

17    of photographs that has been marked for identification, not yet that book

18    has not yet been offered into evidence.  Tomasz Blaszczyk will be

19    testifying about that entire book, and so we are fine on just waiting

20    until we get to Mr. Blaszczyk on that book to offer that book into

21    evidence or these photographs individually.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  But in the meantime, he's put his markings on these

23    two photos and signed, so I think they ought to be given --

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Actually, anything that he's marked I think should

25    come into evidence independently.

Page 18041

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think so.

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Whether it's admitted or marked for identification

 4    purposes is another matter.

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have no objection to anything that he's marked

 6    should come in as evidence independently of the book, because it really is

 7    independent of the ID book, but he didn't mark anything for us I'm told.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Not for you but he did mark both for

 9    Mr. Stojanovic -- I think he marked for Mr. Stojanovic.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And I won't have any objection to any of

11    that.

12                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Otherwise, apart from 65 ter 2963, do you have any

14    other documents?

15            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, yes, do I.  And I would call the Court's

16    attention to the reference of Mr. Stojanovic made of the statement of

17    facts Momir Nikolic made pursuant to his plea agreement and guilty plea

18    which is in evidence in full.  And Mr. Stojanovic challenged some of the

19    factual assertions by Mr. Nikolic in that, at length, with this witness.

20            As such, I would like to offer, under Rule 94, I would like to

21    offer Mr. Nikolic's guilty plea of 6 and 7th May 2003, and the acceptance

22    of that plea by the Court, as a judicial notice of a fact of common

23    knowledge or as evidence to rebut the implications and the evidence put

24    forward through this witness.  And this is potentially complex area which

25    we will certainly be able to provide the Court written material on, if you

Page 18042

 1    so choose.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Is there any objection?  Yes, don't rush, take it

 3    one after the other.

 4            Yes, Madam Fauveau?

 5            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this judicial notice

 6    only takes into account the fact Momir Nikolic made a plea agreement and a

 7    guilty plea.  There I see no objection to this if that's the only thing.

 8    However, regarding the accuracy of the facts that are noted in the

 9    statement of facts and in the plea agreement, there, I do not -- I

10    objected to this being tendered as notorious facts.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. McCloskey?

12            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I provide it to the Court for any weight it should

13    be allowed, that it should feel it should give.  But for the truth of the

14    matter asserted in it, but of course if you wish to set it aside and not

15    give it any value that's your discretion.  So I don't offer it as the

16    God's honest truth and only the truth, but we do offer it as a -- as to go

17    to the credibility of those statements of facts which have been challenged

18    by Mr. Stojanovic.  And I will recall to the Court that this statement of

19    facts was initially introduced by Mr. Stojanovic.  This is not something

20    the Prosecution is piggy backing on to.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  He didn't introduce the whole document.  He

22    introduced part of that document with this witness and asked some

23    questions.

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  The document was already in -- it's my

25    understanding that the entire document was already into evidence under

Page 18043

 1    Major Boering as introduced by the Borovcanin team many months ago.

 2    That's what I was referring to.  And he's now -- he's now -- and I believe

 3    he attacked it through Major Boering, though I don't remember, but he

 4    certainly attacked it through this witness, and so I think he has opened

 5    the door to me being able to rebut that with the admissions of Momir

 6    Nikolic, his guilty plea the acceptance of that by the Court.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's check what was admitted with Major Boering.

 8                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 9                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Then -- okay.  So I think the position is very

11    simple.  If you wish to tender -- or if you wish to move before the Trial

12    Chamber, for the taking of judicial notice of a documentary evidence from

13    the Momir Nikolic proceedings, pursuant to Rule 94, we suggest that you do

14    so in writing, by means of an ad hoc motion, and then everyone will have

15    an opportunity to discuss that and it will also give us the opportunity to

16    decide after hearing your submissions, your respective submissions.

17            As regards to the use made today of parts of that document by

18    Mr. Stojanovic, I think we'll wait to see what Mr. Stojanovic has in mind,

19    and then we see.  But let's conclude on your list, the Prosecution list.

20    His previous testimony in Blagojevic.  What else?

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's it, Mr. President, yes.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Now, Defence teams, who wishes to tender

23    any document?  Madam Fauveau?

24            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, only P113, the report

25    of Colonel Jankovic of July 13th 1995.

Page 18044

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection?

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from the other Defence teams?  None.

 4    So admitted.  Yours is also admitted, Mr. McCloskey.

 5            Any other Defence team would like to tender any document?

 6    Mr. Stojanovic?

 7            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we move that the

 8    marked diagram be admitted, 4D.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the number.

10            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And we will be of course

11    responding to the filing by the Prosecution in writing concerning the

12    judicial notice of the facts that are just being asked to be admitted.

13    Let me repeat:  4DIC 191.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  The two things are different.  What

15    Mr. McCloskey is seeking is completely different from the possible

16    tendering on your part of either the whole document which is already in

17    the records or the part from that document which you made use of.  But

18    anyway I'm not going to interfere with that.  If you wish to tender it,

19    you tender it.  If you don't wish to tender it, we stop there and proceed

20    with the next witness.

21            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Therefore, the answer is we are

22    not tendering it.  We are mindful of the fact that the statement is

23    already in -- it's already in evidence and it's marked 4D00016.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  All right.  So is there any objection to the

25    other document, the photo that has been marked?

Page 18045

 1            MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  That is admitted.  No further documents, I

 3    take it?  Mr. Meek?

 4            MR. MEEK:  No, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So is the next witness ready?

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  No -- I just want a confirmation that there are no

 8    protective measures involved?

 9            MR. NICHOLLS:  That is correct, Your Honour, but I think that the

10    witness should receive a caution, yes.

11                          [The witness entered court]

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon, Mr. Jovic.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  And I wish to welcome you to this trial.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Where you are about to start giving evidence.  I

17    don't think we will finish with you today, but we'll make our best and

18    make sure that we will finish with your testimony tomorrow.  Before you

19    start, however, there is a solemn procedure that we need to follow.  You

20    need to give us your undertaking, your word, that you will be testifying

21    the truth, and for that purpose, you're required to make the solemn

22    declaration that is contained in the text that is being handed to you by

23    Madam Usher.  Read it out aloud, please, and that will be your

24    undertaking.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 18046

 1    the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 2                          WITNESS:  DRAGAN JOVIC

 3                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Please make yourself comfortable.  And welcome once

 7    more.  I'll briefly, very briefly, explain to you what's going to happen.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  You're going to be asked several questions first by

10    Mr. Nicholls for the Office of the Prosecutor and subsequently by the

11    various Defence teams which you have to your right.

12            In the course of the questions that will be put to you, there

13    could be a possibility - I'm not saying that this will happen - but there

14    could be a possibility of questions put to you, being put to you, which,

15    if answered truthfully by you, could possibly expose you to criminal

16    proceedings later on.  Now, as in most countries, we have a provision in

17    our law which protects the witness from self-incrimination, which means

18    that if such a question is put to you, and if you believe that by

19    answering truthfully you would expose yourself to criminal proceedings,

20    then you can ask us, the four judges here, to consider exempting you from

21    answering such questions.  I told you you had a right, but it's not an

22    absolute right.  It's a limited right.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  In the sense that we can either accede to your

25    request, or we can disagree with you completely and compel you to answer

Page 18047

 1    such questions.  If we do compel to you answer such questions, then there

 2    is a further right that you enjoy, namely that provided that your answer

 3    is truthful, whatever you state here in answering such questions cannot be

 4    made use of in any proceedings that might be taken against you.  That is a

 5    guarantee that our law, our rules, provide you with.  Have I made myself

 6    clear?  Have you understood what I tried to explain?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have.  Yes.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's very good.  That paves the way for the

 9    commencement of your testimony.  Mr. Nicholls?

10            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11                          Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

12       Q.   Good afternoon.

13       A.   Good afternoon.

14       Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber your full name?

15       A.   Dragan Jovic, 26th of July 1959, Zvornik, Rocevici.

16       Q.   And you would describe your ethnicity as that you are a Bosnian

17    Serb; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Could you tell us what your present job is?

20       A.   I am a private businessman, haulier.

21       Q.   And where were you born?  You said that, excuse me, Rocevic.

22    Where do you live now?

23       A.   I live in Rocevic, and I am registered in the Osmace municipality.

24    I have been some seven or eight years ago because I had some tax benefits

25    beforehand.  Now it's all the same.  I live in Rocevic.

Page 18048

 1       Q.   All right.  I want to start asking you some questions now about

 2    1995.  In July 1995, can you tell us what your rank and position was in

 3    the VRS?

 4       A.   I didn't hold any rank.  I was the driver for the commander of the

 5    2nd Battalion.

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat the name, please?

 7            MR. NICHOLLS:

 8       Q.   Could you tell us the name of the commander, please?  It wasn't

 9    picked up.

10       A.   Sreco Acimovic.

11       Q.   And how long had you been Commander Acimovic's driver?  When did

12    you start driving for him?

13       A.   As of March of 1993, I guess.  I don't recall exactly,

14    thereabouts.

15       Q.   All right.  And in July 1995, where were you living?  Where was

16    your family home when you weren't on duty?

17       A.   In the house at Rocevic.

18       Q.   And your house in Rocevic, how far is that from the school in

19    Rocevic?

20       A.   Around 200 metres, more or less, around 200 metres.

21       Q.   And do you recall that the first time I met you was on the 30th of

22    June 2007, and on that day you gave a tape-recorded interview to the

23    Office of the Prosecutor?

24       A.   Yes, yes.

25       Q.   And when you arrived here in The Hague, were you given an

Page 18049

 1    opportunity to review the transcript of your interview with the assistance

 2    of an interpreter?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Did you have any changes or alterations to your interview or do

 5    you stand by that statement you gave to us?

 6       A.   As far as my statement is concerned, I stand by it.

 7       Q.   Okay.  And last question on this topic, before you met with me on

 8    the 30th of June, had you given an interview to investigators for the

 9    Defence in this case?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Okay.  I want to ask you now some more questions about July 1995,

12    specifically concerning the Rocevic area.  During this time, in the days

13    following the fall of Srebrenica or the Srebrenica campaign, did you

14    become aware of any Muslim prisoners being held in the Rocevic area?

15       A.   I had heard of it on the eve of the execution.

16       Q.   Okay.  Tell me -- tell me what you heard about prisoners in

17    Rocevic.  Where were they held?

18       A.   I was outside the command where I was all the time, either at the

19    back of the building or in front of it, when a young man came up who was a

20    member, a soldier, of our battalion, who had been visiting someone or I

21    don't know what, in Rocevic.  He passed by the reception area and said

22    that Muslims, prisoners, had been brought over to the hall at Rocevic.

23       Q.   And is that the hall of the school in Rocevic, the gym?

24       A.   Yes, yes, yes.

25       Q.   Okay.  What else did he tell you about what was going on at the

Page 18050

 1    school?  What did you hear was going on at the school where the prisoners

 2    were held?

 3       A.   I heard that there were dead among them, and that Joco Stojanovic,

 4    I don't know who called him or ordered him anything, that he came to take

 5    them away by tractor.  What he did and how, I don't know anything about

 6    that.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  And just to be clear, I sometimes have to ask

 8    follow-up questions even though you are answering well.  Are these dead

 9    Serbs or Muslims that were taken away by tractor?

10       A.   Well, they must have been Muslims.

11       Q.   And did you hear about whether any -- excuse me -- Serb civilians

12    had been hurt or wounded at this time, around the school?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Can you describe that, please?

15       A.   Well, I heard that during either the killing of the Muslims or, I

16    don't know when, the wife of Petko Tanaskovic was wounded, who is also

17    some 200 metres away from the school.  She was wounded in her arm.

18       Q.   Thank you.  And just last question or two on this topic, did you

19    hear how many Muslims had been killed at the school in Rocevic?

20       A.   I didn't.

21       Q.   Did you go to the school yourself --

22       A.   I didn't understand you, whether it was the evening before the

23    executions or on the day of the executions or what, on the eve of the

24    executions?

25       Q.   Let me try to make that clearer.  When you first heard -- on the

Page 18051

 1    day that the wife of Petko Tanaskovic was wounded, did you hear how many

 2    Muslims had been killed that day?  Or another way of saying it, how many

 3    Muslims were taken away on the tractor?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Okay.

 6       A.   No, no.  I don't know.

 7       Q.   Now, that day, when you heard this information, did you personally

 8    go to Rocevic school that same day that you heard about this?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Okay.

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   The next day did you go anywhere from the command of the 2nd

13    Battalion?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Okay.  Where did you go on the following day?

16       A.   We woke up in the morning, had breakfast, I was in front of the

17    command where my post was.  I believe I was in the front of the command, I

18    don't know exactly.  Sreco Acimovic called me and asked me to drive him.

19    I asked him where.  He told me, "You should go towards Kozluk."

20       Q.   Okay.  And then where did you go?  Please tell us where you went

21    with Acimovic.

22       A.   When we arrived, we continued our journey to Rocevic, in front --

23    we stopped in front of the school.

24       Q.   Approximately what time did you arrive at the school in Rocevic

25    that day?

Page 18052

 1       A.   Well, between 10.00 or 11.00.  I'm not sure.  I never had a watch

 2    on me, just to tell you that.  It was a general conundrum and I don't know

 3    who told Sreco Acimovic that we should go to Rocevic.  I only know that he

 4    ordered me to take him down there and that we went to the school in

 5    Rocevic.

 6       Q.   Okay.  It's not a huge point but in your interview you said

 7    between 11.00 and noon.  Does that help you remember?  Which do you think

 8    is more accurate, 10.00 to 11.00 or 11.00 to noon when you arrived?

 9       A.   Well, around that time.  It's quite possible 11.00, 12.00 noon.  I

10    can't tell you exactly.

11       Q.   I'd like you to describe in your own words to the Trial Chamber,

12    if you could, what you saw at the school when you arrived there with

13    Acimovic?  What was the scene there?  What did you see going on?

14       A.   As we arrived and entered the school yard, to the left there was

15    an UNPROFOR APC.  I parked my car next to the APC, between the two

16    buildings, where there was a shade.  From there, we went directly into the

17    school.  The school was unlocked.  Sreco asked that the door to an office

18    be opened where there was a phone line.

19            I can't tell you whether there was the school secretary there or

20    probably I went to fetch the school secretary to get the keys in order to

21    open the door to the office where there were phones.  And that's it.

22       Q.   Okay.  What's the name of the school secretary that you're

23    referring to?  Do you remember his name?

24       A.   I do, Boro Lakic.

25       Q.   The APC, can you describe that, what colour it was, which unit or

Page 18053

 1    organisation it belonged to, if you know?

 2       A.   I only know that it was white in colour.  Whose it was I don't

 3    know.  I don't know which army it belonged to.

 4       Q.   Did you see any VRS soldiers or military police or any other

 5    military personnel around the school when you arrived with Mr. Acimovic?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Can you describe how many of these soldiers or military police you

 8    saw?

 9       A.   Well, in front of the gym, perhaps up to ten, but there were some

10    of them in front of the gym and behind the school, perhaps some 15 to 20

11    of them.  I don't know.  This wasn't important to me.  I didn't go

12    counting them and nobody told me to record that.

13       Q.   And I realise you weren't at that time thinking would you have to

14    remember the precise number, were these -- which unit did these men belong

15    to, who were around the school and in front of the gym?

16       A.   There was talk that they belonged to the Bratunac Brigade.  I

17    didn't know them.  Which means that they weren't part of our brigade, but

18    people said that they belonged to the Bratunac Brigade.

19       Q.   Okay.  Who said they belonged to the Bratunac Brigade?  Which

20    people?

21       A.   It may have been Sreco or someone who said that they belonged to

22    the Bratunac Brigade.

23       Q.   And were these MPs or ordinary soldiers?

24       A.   They were MPs.

25       Q.   All right.  What happened after you got the keys to -- from Boro

Page 18054

 1    Lakic?  What happened next?

 2       A.   Sreco Acimovic entered the office.  I saw no one, no soldier, no

 3    officer, anyone.  I stayed in the hall way, some 20 metres from the

 4    office.

 5       Q.   You didn't go into the office or did you go into the office?

 6       A.   No, no.

 7       Q.   Okay.  And how long did you stay in the hallway or did you go

 8    somewhere else after a while?

 9       A.   I stayed for a short while.  In the meantime Sreco came out and I

10    asked him, since the campaign lasted for a number of days, I was dirty and

11    all, and as my house was nearby, I asked him for permission to go to my

12    home to change and wash quickly.

13       Q.   Now before --

14       A.   And this took me about 40 minutes or an hour, thereabouts.

15       Q.   All right.

16       A.   My absence, that is.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Now, before you went home, did you see any prisoners

18    personally?  I mean, did you see any prisoners in the school or in the

19    gym?

20       A.   Yes.  When I left to go home, I couldn't believe that this was

21    taking place there in our village.  I went to the gym and took a look.  A

22    quarter maybe, in fact, a third, was full of soldiers and civilians who

23    were sitting on the floor of the gym.

24       Q.   Now, let me ask you about how sure you are about that gym being a

25    third full.  If could you think about it.

Page 18055

 1       A.   It seemed to me at first glance.

 2       Q.   Okay.

 3       A.   So a quarter almost was empty or thereabouts.

 4       Q.   Okay.  So if a quarter of the gym was empty, perhaps then the gym

 5    was three-quarters full; is that right?

 6       A.   Yes, yes.  Yes.  I didn't express myself so well.

 7       Q.   Thank you.

 8       A.   Thank you.

 9       Q.   When you went home, did you go home alone or did you go with

10    anybody?

11       A.   I went alone.

12       Q.   And what -- what did you do after that time that you were at home?

13    Where did you go next when you left your house?

14       A.   After my bath and having changed, I returned to the school.  I was

15    in front of the school as agreed with Sreco.  When I came up to the

16    school, I saw a military jeep, a Campagnola on the road in front school,

17    not on the sports ground but on the road.  And then I saw Sreco with some

18    man.  They were talking, and I went to the car and sat in the car.

19       Q.   How far away were you when you saw Sreco Acimovic speaking with

20    this other man?

21       A.   About 30 metres, where my car was, and they were standing in front

22    of the goal on the soccer pitch, and I was standing by the building, so we

23    would have been some 30 metres apart.

24       Q.   Could you hear what they were talking about, Sreco and this other

25    man?

Page 18056

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   As best you can, describe the appearance of the man you're

 3    referring to that you saw Sreco Acimovic talking to 30 metres away?  What

 4    did he look like?

 5       A.   Well, he was of a powerful stature like Sreco.  I don't know if he

 6    was a little shorter or taller than Sreco.  He was wearing a military

 7    uniform with no ranks and no uniform hat.  He did have -- he had no

 8    weapons and he didn't belong to the Zvornik Brigade.  I didn't know him.

 9    I would have known him if he belonged to the Zvornik Brigade.

10       Q.   Do you remember anything else about the appearance of this man?

11       A.   Nothing else.  He was shaven, with a round face, rather a big man,

12    you would say.  As I said about your colleague when you were hearing me in

13    Kozluk or -- in fact, I don't remember who said it.

14       Q.   And just to be clear there, you're referring to my colleague,

15    Tomasz Blaszczyk, that you said that they were about the same size; is

16    that right?

17       A.   Yes.  I think so.  I don't really remember who said it.  Maybe you

18    did, or I.

19       Q.   We can go over that later if we need to.  What happened next after

20    you saw Mr. Acimovic talking to this man?

21       A.   Well, nothing much.  When that man left in his jeep, Acimovic

22    called me and said that I should go to see Draskovic, whose brother had

23    been killed early on in the war, but Kula or Liplje, three or four of them

24    were killed there and their bodies were never found.  So he sent me over

25    to that man, to ask him whether he would be -- he would want to come and

Page 18057

 1    execute, but when he mentioned the execution, the firing, to the extent

 2    possible, I opposed him and I said to him, "Sreco, is that more normal?

 3    What are you doing, man?"  And he answered, "We have to do that.  It's an

 4    order, the order must be carried out."  And that's it.

 5            And he sent me over to Draskovic, and I went over to Draskovic's

 6    house which was about a kilometre and a half or two away and asked him, I

 7    said to him that Sreco had sent me to ask him whether he would like to

 8    come and execute the people from Srebrenica.  Sreco probably reckoned that

 9    Draskovic had lost a brother and that he might want to take vengeance but

10    Draskovic didn't want to.

11       Q.   Okay.  Did Sreco Acimovic tell you what he had been discussing

12    with that man you saw him talking to in any detail?  Did he tell you what

13    they had been talking about or how long they had been talking?

14       A.   No.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  You asked more than one question.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Could you split it into two parts, please?

18            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, you're correct, Your Honour.

19       Q.   Did -- it's the same question, but I'll split it up.  Did Sreco

20    Acimovic tell you what he'd been discussing with that man you saw him

21    with?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Did he tell you how long he had been with that man talking while

24    you'd been in your home?

25       A.   I don't know.  I was away for about 40 minutes or 50, up to an

Page 18058

 1    hour, I don't know exactly.  Whether they had been in the school before

 2    that, I don't know, but when I returned I saw them in front -- standing in

 3    front of the goal on the soccer pitch.  The man wore a uniform.  He was

 4    well shaven.  He didn't -- I didn't see any weapons on his person.  He

 5    wasn't wearing ranks.

 6       Q.   What happened after you came back from Draskovic's house?  Coming

 7    back now to after you'd been sent to get this man to help execute the

 8    prisoners and he refused, what happened next?

 9       A.   Well, nothing.  I think that the truck, the battalion's Mercedes

10    driven by Veljko Ivanovic, was already there, waiting, and the decision

11    was taken.  Sreco certainly wouldn't have taken that decision by himself

12    if he hadn't been ordered to.  But from whom that order came, he knows

13    best.  He said that we had to go to Kozluk because there the execution

14    would take place.

15            And before the war he also transported gravel from that place.  It

16    was a gravel pit.  And there was an elderly man who didn't know where that

17    was, that Veljko Ivanovic.  As I was a private entrepreneur before the

18    war, I knew exactly where that was and that's why I went there with Veljko

19    in his truck.

20       Q.   All right.  Let me go back and ask you some questions about what

21    you've just said.  Were you ordered to go with Veljko Ivanovic in the

22    truck and show him the place in Kozluk or was that something that you came

23    up with?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Sorry, I didn't ask that --

Page 18059

 1       A.   No, no.  Not by myself.  It was -- I was ordered to go there

 2    because Veljko didn't know the place, and I had transported gravel from

 3    the place, so I was sent there with him to show him the way of the place.

 4       Q.   All right.  Can you tell me, describe for the Court, how the

 5    prisoners were transported out of the school and to Kozluk?  Describe

 6    that, please.

 7       A.   They were -- they were in trucks, in the back of trucks, and

 8    military police, two or three, were with them there or four at the most,

 9    and that's how they were transported.

10       Q.   Can you tell -- first of all, this truck, the Mercedes, how big is

11    that truck?  Can you describe it, please?  The battalion's Mercedes.

12       A.   It's a smaller Mercedes, with a tarpaulin, able to carry some five

13    to seven tonnes, I'm not sure.

14       Q.   If you remember, approximately how many prisoners were put in the

15    back of the Mercedes truck on the first trip?

16       A.   I don't know.  I wasn't in the back and I didn't count, so I don't

17    know.

18       Q.   Can you describe, as best you can, where you went to in Kozluk

19    with Veljko Ivanovic in his truck and with the prisoners?  Where did the

20    truck stop?

21       A.   Rocevic-Kozluk, that's six kilometres, and the gravel pit is about

22    three kilometres away from Kozluk, and the road is very bad.  I was

23    surprised myself because I remember what it looked like before, but five

24    years later, it was all overgrown, it was even hard to recognise.  We

25    drove the truck as far as we could get, and Veljko turned around and

Page 18060

 1    there, they were unloaded, and they were taken away, but I didn't see what

 2    happened later.  They must have been shot there.  But I didn't witness

 3    that.  I only accompanied Veljko to show him the way.  And there, there

 4    were the pits from which gravel and sand had been dug out.

 5       Q.   Who unloaded the prisoners from the truck, when they arrived at

 6    that location in Kozluk?

 7       A.   The military police.

 8       Q.   Is that military police who accompanied the truck from Rocevic

 9    school or were there military police already there waiting?

10       A.   Nobody was there waiting.  It was the military police who had been

11    in Rocevic.

12       Q.   And then what did you and Veljko Ivanovic do after the prisoners

13    had been taken off the truck?  What happened next?

14       A.   We returned to Rocevic.

15       Q.   And then what happened?  What did you do next when you got back to

16    Rocevic?

17       A.   When I returned to Rocevic, Sreco Acimovic -- you could say that

18    he ordered me to fetch the truck from Mico Stanojevic, who -- whose truck

19    was requisitioned for the military, and I went there to Mico Stanojevic's

20    house which was some -- a kilometre and a half away, to inform him of

21    Sreco's order.  So I got to his house, I asked for Mico Stanojevic, his

22    wife came out, and his mother.  I said to them that Sreco had sent me for

23    Mico.  Whether there had been a telephone conversation before, I don't

24    know, but he sent me to fetch the truck.

25            His mother came out and said, no, you can't take the truck.  And

Page 18061

 1    his wife also said I couldn't.  And the truck was or rather belonged to

 2    Mico's relative, and it was to be used to transport soldiers.  And that

 3    guy lives in -- close to Padine and Sreco then said, "We'll go there

 4    together."  And we drove there in my car.  And again, Mico's mother and

 5    wife came out who again said that they wouldn't give us the truck, but

 6    Sreco used his authority because he was a battalion commander, and he had

 7    to be respected.  He didn't use force but he sternly ordered them to give

 8    us the keys to the truck.

 9            I had a truck before the war, and I sold it in 1991, so I could

10    drive any truck.  So I took the truck and Sreco returned to Rocevic in my

11    car.  And Sreco -- and I continued as ordered by Sreco to take soldiers to

12    Kozluk.  Two or three times I took soldiers there.  It was a smaller

13    truck.  Maybe -- it could hold some ten prisoners or so at a time, and the

14    soldiers securing those civilians and prisoners, Muslims.

15       Q.   Now, the first -- I'm going to come back to this, but the first

16    trip that you took with Veljko, where you -- when the prisoners were

17    loaded, taken to Kozluk and taken down that difficult road, unloaded and

18    then you returned, how long did that whole trip take, round trip?  How

19    long was that process, the entire first --

20       A.   Not less than an hour, certainly.

21       Q.   Okay.

22       A.   Because from Kozluk, there were three kilometres to the gravel pit

23    on a bad road which was not -- had not been maintained for five years, so

24    it was even difficult to walk on that road, let alone drive a truck on it.

25       Q.   Okay.  When you came back -- just to be clear -- and you got the

Page 18062

 1    second truck, what was that truck going to be used for, the truck which

 2    you and Sreco went and were able to persuade Mico Stanojevic's mother and

 3    wife to give to you, what was that truck for?

 4       A.   It was used for the same purpose as Veljko's truck.

 5       Q.   Transporting prisoners to Kozluk?

 6       A.   Yes, yes.

 7       Q.   Now, approximately how many round trips did you make, taking

 8    prisoners to Kozluk, using Stanojevic's truck?

 9       A.   Well, I said a little while ago two to three times.  I don't

10    remember exactly.  So two times at least, up to three times.

11       Q.   And if you know, how many trips did Veljko Ivanovic make with his

12    truck, the Mercedes?

13       A.   I don't know.  You'd have to ask him. (redacted).  Veljko

14    was nervous on that day, and I don't know how he was able to drive because

15    he was ill.  He was ill even before the war but especially in such a

16    situation.

17            MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go into private session for one moment,

18    please, Your Honour?

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go into private session.

20                          [Private session]

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 18063

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4                          [Open session]

 5            MR. NICHOLLS:

 6       Q.   Sir, were there any other --

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Yes, we are in open session now.

 8            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 9       Q.   As best you remember, were there any other trucks used besides the

10    two you've already talked about?  Any other trucks that you saw that day

11    being used to transport prisoners from the Rocevic school to Kozluk?

12       A.   I saw that Milivoje Lazarevic also drove a load, if you pardon the

13    expression, a truck load.  I don't really remember.  When I was asked by

14    the Nikolic Defence, I'm not sure, whether I remember that there was Djoko

15    Nikolic, I really can't remember.  I can't remember whether that man was

16    there with a truck.  I don't remember.

17       Q.   Now, how long did this entire operation, I'll call it, take?  How

18    long was it until all the prisoners were transported out of the school and

19    had been taken to the execution site?

20       A.   It started late because there was expectation that it wouldn't

21    begin.  Nobody was for that.  I said to Sreco right away that it shouldn't

22    be done but he received an order, I don't know from whom, he knows that,

23    and the -- it lasted from 2.00 or 3.00 until -- I was there until 6.00 or

24    7.00 when Mico took over the truck from me.  I don't know exactly.  I'm

25    not sure about the times.  But thereabouts.

Page 18064

 1       Q.   After Mico Stanojevic took over the truck from you, did he drive

 2    any prisoners from the school?  Do you know?

 3       A.   I don't know that.  I didn't see that.

 4       Q.   And --

 5       A.   You'd have to ask him that.

 6       Q.   Now, after the last prisoners had been taken away from the school,

 7    what did you do next?

 8       A.   I didn't stay until the end.  When I gave the keys, that is when I

 9    handed over the truck, to Mico Stanojevic, Sreco ordered me to take some

10    sandwiches and juice and mineral water to another place, and then I went

11    home because he didn't tell me to return.  So it would have been around

12    5.00 or 6.00 when Sreco sent me away.  And having delivered those

13    sandwiches and mineral water and juice, I didn't go to see those soldiers

14    there and I didn't return to the school.  I don't know how long it all

15    lasted and what time it was.

16       Q.   What time did you actually get home that night or that evening?

17       A.   Well, perhaps at around 7.30 or 8.00.  I don't know.

18            MR. NICHOLLS:  One moment, Your Honour.

19                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

21            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I found one slip in translation.  The

22    witness said that he brought mineral water and juices and sandwiches to

23    the soldiers.  Not -- it was --

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  You're maintaining that he said that he took.

25            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

Page 18065

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's what he said.

 2            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Then it doesn't tally with the transcript.

 4    Mr. Jovic, what did do you with the sandwiches, mineral water and the

 5    juice?  What did you do with them?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I handed the truck over to Mico

 7    Stanojevic, I came to the school and to Sreco, who told me to take the

 8    sandwiches and to drop by a store in Kozluk to buy some mineral water and

 9    juices and that the battalion would sort that out, and I took this down to

10    those soldiers and the first soldiers I came across I gave them the goods.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

12    Mr. Nicholls?

13            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

14       Q.   Okay.  And which soldiers are these that you're bringing the juice

15    and the food to?  The mineral water and juices?

16       A.   When I first left with Veljko, there was only the military police

17    there.  When I arrived with Mico Stanojevic's truck, there was already a

18    larger presence of the army, together with the military police, and I mean

19    the presence of the army that was unknown to me.  They weren't from the

20    2nd Battalion, I don't know where they were from.  They were unknown to

21    me.  There were soldiers who were not members of the 2nd Battalion who

22    were from Kozluk but they were assigned to all manner of battalions.

23            Although I was a haulier, it was the first time at Branjevo and

24    now in the streets of Zvornik I meet some people for the first time

25    although I've been living there for a long time.  Whether they were

Page 18066

 1    members of the 2nd Battalion, and I didn't know them, or whether they were

 2    sent from outside, from some other battalion or brigade, I really don't

 3    know.

 4       Q.   Okay.  And when you say you meet some people, when you meet some

 5    people in Zvornik, you're talking there about people who were -- who are

 6    you talking about there?  People -- you just said in your answer sometimes

 7    you meet people for the first time in the streets of Zvornik, and you

 8    don't know which units they were from.  Are you -- which people are you

 9    talking about?  Why -- when you talk about meeting people in Zvornik?

10       A.   What I want to say is that in Kozluk, which is a Muslim place,

11    Muslims who lived there were moved out, and there were people moved in

12    from Tuzla, Zivinice, Zenica, half of Bosnia was in Kozluk, and all these

13    people were assigned to all the different units in the Zvornik Brigade and

14    outside the Zvornik Brigade, and even now, when I move about the town, I

15    meet some people for the first time.  So I don't know these people even

16    today, let alone at that time we are discussing.

17       Q.   Okay.  But were any of these people who were present at Kozluk, at

18    the execution site?  People from Zenica and elsewhere?

19       A.   No, no, no.  I don't know.  I don't know.  I can't really

20    speculate about that.  I didn't see any of the people I knew.

21       Q.   Okay.  Well, let me ask you about this because you've -- because

22    it's come up, you've brought it up.  In your statement, you talked about

23    how now even after 15 years sometimes when you transport construction

24    material to people from Zenica or other places, some of them tell you that

25    they were there, also there, at Kozluk.  Can you tell me what you were

Page 18067

 1    referring to there?  Did you meet people who had also been at Kozluk?

 2       A.   No.  No, no.  Those were people residing in Kozluk at the time who

 3    were assigned throughout the Zvornik Brigade.  I didn't see them there.

 4    What I meant was that they were occupying Muslim houses and were assigned

 5    to all the different parts of the Zvornik Brigade.  I don't know now in

 6    terms of percentage of our people who were in our battalion.  Of course,

 7    there were more in the entire battalion.  Maybe Mr. Pandurevic knows, the

 8    battalion has some 500 to 600 people.  I don't know.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Was Sreco Acimovic at the school in Rocevic the whole day,

10    as far as you could see, or did he go away at some point?

11       A.   Well, this was between five and six hours that he was there for

12    sure.  After that, I didn't talk to him, I didn't see him.  I went home.

13    I don't know where he went.  It was only the next day that I went to

14    Malesic, to the command.  Nobody had been asking for me in the meantime or

15    anything of the sort.

16                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

17            MR. NICHOLLS:

18       Q.   Let me just ask you this question, I'm sorry you may have answered

19    this but I missed it, when you're bringing the juice and the mineral water

20    to the soldiers, is that soldiers at the school or soldiers at the

21    execution site in Kozluk?

22       A.   At the execution site, but they were outside of that site.  They

23    were waiting for the buses.  They couldn't come to that site itself, to

24    the pit itself, because it was overgrown by vegetation, and the first

25    soldiers I came across and saw, I stopped, took the sandwiches, mineral

Page 18068

 1    water and juice out of the boot, gave it to them and left.  After that, I

 2    didn't call Sreco, he didn't call me.  I never carried a Motorola, I

 3    wasn't the commander of a single squad, platoon or a company.  I was only

 4    serving the army  -- service, I was providing a service to the army.  I

 5    couldn't make any decisions or order anyone anything.

 6            MR. NICHOLLS:  Nothing else at this time.  Thanks.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Who is going first?  Mr. Bourgon?

10                          Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  We will have a break in about 20 minutes time.

12            MR. BOURGON:  I can begin, Mr. President.

13       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Jovic.

14       A.   Good afternoon.

15       Q.   I have less questions than expected to ask you.  Many of the

16    questions I intended to ask were already asked by my colleague, but in any

17    event I will still go through the events as they unfolded.  I think it

18    will be easier for you to understand each of the questions I'm going to

19    ask you.  Do you understand this?

20       A.   Yes.  If I don't understand you, I will tell you so.

21       Q.   Thank you, sir.  First starting with the fact that you were the

22    driver of Sreco Acimovic, can you confirm that you were a member of the

23    command of the 2nd Battalion in July of 1995?

24       A.   The driver of the commander of the 2nd Battalion, that's correct.

25       Q.   So the place where you stayed at that time was at the command of

Page 18069

 1    the 2nd Battalion?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And in July of 1995, when you were driving Sreco Acimovic, you

 4    were using your own vehicle and that was a Mercedes; is that correct?

 5       A.   Yes.  And my fuel too.  My car, my fuel, which cost 15.000 German

 6    marks at the time.  100 litres of fuel a month costing 500 German marks

 7    that I paid for.  I sold a new truck in 1991 which I wouldn't have saved

 8    my head unless I worked for the command.  That's why Sreco admitted me as

 9    a driver to help me have the job.

10       Q.   And one of the reasons you got into this agreement was because you

11    had a problem with your spine and your leg.  You had water in your knee, I

12    believe; is that correct?

13       A.   In 1993, at Viska Glavica, in the direction of Zeca [phoen] Kosa,

14    Kovacvici, Mr. Pandurevic knows the area, I was driving a tractor, with a

15    bucket.  It was raining and snowing.  There were Pinzgauers and Lada Nivas

16    with chains that weren't unable to reach the front lines to collect the

17    wounded and the dead.  I drove them all the way to the medical corps.  It

18    would so happen that I would drive a dead person in the bucket and two

19    soldiers would hold him, and a Muslim howitzer shell would land two metres

20    away from me, wounding one of the soldiers in the bucket, and you know

21    what a Pinzgauer with chains on is.  What sort of terrain it can -- can be

22    trafficable for it, but that sort of terrain was not trafficable for that

23    vehicle.

24            And I've had problems with my spine.  And up until 1992, 1993, I

25    had to drink 600-millimetre [as interpreted] prophines in the mornings and

Page 18070

 1    evenings, pain killers to endure this.  Nobody believed me, not even the

 2    doctors.  In 1993, I was able to drive a tractor in one of the actions,

 3    and I get water in my knee at the start of the action.  I went to Zvornik

 4    to the hospital to Vucetic who said that water had to be extracted from my

 5    knee, but that what was required were more expensive injections that my

 6    knee had to be injected with in order to prevent further forming of any

 7    water.

 8            My wife had an uncle in Belgrade and I spoke to him and he said,

 9    "Well, if you can get a prescription, if not all the same, you have to

10    come to Belgrade to the orthopaedic ward there."  I went there to my

11    wife's uncle, who -- well, I went there without having to pay for

12    anything.  I went to the main orthopaedic specialist there, probably all

13    of you know Lepa Brena the singer and Bobo Zivojinovic the tennis player,

14    and I was treated by that orthopaedic doctor who treated the tennis

15    player, and I had this -- I had this plaster that I had to wear and I

16    received tablets in Belgrade, I had to report to Dr. Vucetic to extend my

17    sick leave.  But he told me that the tablets I was prescribed with would

18    never assist anyone with anything and they wouldn't help me either.

19            So I had to stay put for 20 days resting, and even to this day my

20    knee has not been giving me any trouble but my spine has been giving me

21    trouble, and I'm limping on my right foot because the three fingers on my

22    right foot, the three toes on my right foot are causing me trouble and I

23    can't stand on them.  And all of this trouble emerged during the war.

24       Q.   And luckily by using your car and paying for that fuel, you

25    managed to stay at the 2nd Battalion command, and you avoided going back

Page 18071

 1    to the trenches; is that correct?

 2       A.   I was supposed to go back because I was supposed to appear before

 3    a commission once the plaster was taken off.  I was supposed to appear

 4    before a commission.  However, Sreco met me on one of these occasions I

 5    was going back from a medical checkup.  He had known me from before.  He

 6    knew that I was a private haulier and that I had to sell my truck in 1991

 7    for 20.000 German marks.  He knew that I had some money on the side, some

 8    savings, so he told me, rather than ending up somewhere, you should come

 9    to my command, use your Lada, and be our driver for the battalion.  This

10    way, you can take care of your health, and you can avoid being engaged in

11    fighting the Muslims.

12       Q.   Thank you for sharing this with us.  Now, at the 2nd Battalion

13    command, I take it that you were sleeping in a house which was by the

14    command but you did not sleep in the command; is that correct?

15       A.   I slept in the rear, because Sreco was a great man.  None of the

16    soldiers could sleep at the command.  Only those who were desk officers,

17    who worked in the moral guidance sector, and those higher up, they were

18    able to sleep at the command.  We, the ordinary soldiers, had to sleep in

19    the rear in some homes, in very bad conditions, with no bathroom

20    facilities of any sort.  We were eating directly from the pots in the

21    kitchen, whereas Sreco had a cook who brought him food as if he was in a

22    hotel, and to some others who were members of the command, because they

23    were the higher ups.  They were powerful people at the time.

24       Q.   Now, this man that came to -- by the command to the -- the first

25    one to share the information concerning the prisoners taken in the Rocevic

Page 18072

 1    school, you don't know the name of this man, do you?

 2       A.   He didn't share his opinion with me.  It was by happenstance that

 3    I was at the gate.  In front of the command, there was the gate and that's

 4    where we were.  We were always at the ready to be dispatched somewhere.

 5    At some point, I was assigned to go to Baljkovica as an aide, perhaps some

 6    five platoons from the 2nd Battalion went to Baljkovica.  Sreco's cousin,

 7    who was also sent to Baljkovica, never came back.  That man, he was a

 8    member of the 2nd Battalion.  I don't know his name although I know him by

 9    sight.  He was born in Malesic and he was married in Rocevic, and he

10    happened to come at that point, but I don't know who told this to Sreco at

11    the command, whether it came by telegraph or whether it was the courier, I

12    don't know.

13       Q.   Do you recall, sir, that this man, when he gave that information,

14    you made -- you mentioned in your statement or your -- during your

15    interview that the soldiers at the school who were guarding the prisoners,

16    that they were drunk?  Do you remember that?

17       A.   Yes, yes.

18       Q.   And when that man came by the command, my understanding is that

19    this took place in the evening or at dusk; is that correct?

20       A.   Yes.  It was at dusk, just before night fall.  He probably had to

21    get to the front line before dark.  Since his house is situated

22    practically at the front line in Malesic, his family must have been in

23    Rocevic and he went to visit them.

24       Q.   And that night, the night that this man came by the battalion, I

25    take it that you slept in that house by the command; is that correct?

Page 18073

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And you did not hear or see anything special that night that you

 3    recall, something -- anything special happened that night?

 4       A.   No, nothing.  I simply went to sleep and you're waiting at the

 5    command.  One could still hear gunfire from Baljkovica all the way in

 6    front of the lines of our 2nd Battalion, and I'm sure that Mr. Pandurevic

 7    knows this better.  He's familiar with the terrain, that is.  I don't know

 8    if he heard this or not.  I did.  The gunfire, I mean.

 9       Q.   If I look at -- you testified earlier that you parked your car

10    between two buildings behind the school, and my understanding is that you

11    immediately entered the school at that time with Sreco Acimovic; is that

12    correct?

13       A.   That's not correct.  Not behind the school.  In front of the

14    school.  There were two residential buildings in front of the school, and

15    I parked my vehicle right next the APC, close to trees, since it was quite

16    warm, the weather, that's where I parked the car, in the shade.

17       Q.   Maybe it's my question that was not clear enough.  After parking

18    the car, you went directly into the school with Sreco Acimovic?

19       A.   Yes, yes, yes.

20       Q.   And you did not meet anybody outside, a high-ranking officer,

21    before going into the school?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Okay.  And when you went inside the school, Sreco Acimovic went

24    into one of those offices and you stayed in the hallway, and just to

25    confirm, the distance about where you were from where Acimovic was, that

Page 18074

 1    office, is about 20 metres; is that correct?

 2       A.   Certainly that much.  It's quite a long school hallway.  I didn't

 3    have access to the command in Malesic, and even less would I have that

 4    here.  Yes, I was at least 20 to 30 metres away from the office.

 5       Q.   You mentioned that you never went into that office where Sreco

 6    Acimovic was, but then can you confirm that you did not hear any

 7    discussion between Sreco Acimovic and whoever was with him in that office?

 8       A.   Never.  I didn't hear that ever.  The conversation or -- although

 9    he had a Motorola and a phone, but I wasn't interested in that.  You

10    understand.  And Sreco's highness did not allow soldiers to come to --

11    close to him.  That was off limits.

12       Q.   Now, you don't know who, if anyone, was in that office with

13    Acimovic at that time; is that correct?

14       A.   I didn't see anyone.

15       Q.   And while you were waiting in the hallway, you never saw anybody

16    coming and going from that office, did you?

17       A.   No, nobody.

18       Q.   And I take it that you yourself did not participate in any

19    conversation between Sreco Acimovic and whoever was with him at the time;

20    is that correct?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   And are you aware that Sreco Acimovic testified before this Trial

23    Chamber earlier this year?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And where did you learn that Sreco Acimovic testified?

Page 18075

 1       A.   I heard it over the TV.  I heard his words.  I heard his words,

 2    although I came too late, since I work 10 to 12, sometimes even 15 hours a

 3    day.  If you want to have a living, you have to work that much back in our

 4    parts.  Some might even earn a better living working only half an hour

 5    than me working 15 hours.

 6            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President, I think it's time for the

 7    break.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Perfect.  Thank you.  We'll have a break.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead, Mr. Bourgon.

12            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13       Q.   Welcome back, sir.  I have a few more questions, and we will try

14    to finish today so that you can go home as early as possible.

15       A.   Thank you.

16       Q.   When Sreco Acimovic testified, he said that he did not remember

17    that you drove him to Rocevic.  Is that possible?

18       A.   Who else could have driven him when there was no other vehicle in

19    the battalion?

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

21            MR. NICHOLLS:  I just had an objection to the form of the question

22    but --

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's move then.

24            MR. BOURGON:

25       Q.   And sir, when Sreco Acimovic testified, he said that you were

Page 18076

 1    standing close to him when pressure was exercised on him.  Do you recall

 2    any such pressure being exercised on Sreco Acimovic?

 3       A.   No.  Not in my presence.  But I wasn't present in the office or

 4    when that man in the jeep arrived.  I was -- I was not present when they

 5    were together.

 6       Q.   And when Sreco Acimovic testified, he said that he really could

 7    not remember how you found yourself in the school.  Is that possible?

 8       A.   That is impossible.  In this room, I concede that over 90 per cent

 9    must have children.  I can swear on the lives of my children -- may I not

10    find them alive when I return home if it wasn't me who drove Sreco there.

11    I drove him because the battalion had no other vehicle.  There was an old

12    Lada Niva, and Sreco didn't go anywhere in that vehicle.  It was only me

13    who drove him in my car and using my own fuel and fuel was five marks a

14    litre at the time.

15       Q.   Thank you.  Now, when Sreco Acimovic testified, he said that you

16    overheard his conversation with another officer and that you said, "Well,

17    we have trucks that can be used to drive the prisoners away."  Did you

18    ever offer trucks to drive the prisoners away to Sreco Acimovic?

19       A.   That's ridiculous.  It is clear who was in charge of requisitioned

20    vehicles and who can order a driver to drive a requisitioned vehicle

21    somewhere.  I, as a private, the driver of a commander, was not in a

22    position to order anyone anything.

23       Q.   Thank you, sir.  Also during his testimony and this one I will

24    quote for the benefit of my colleague from page 12969 to 12970, talking

25    about Djoko Nikolic, Sreco Acimovic said the following:  "This soldier,

Page 18077

 1    Dragan Jovic, who was nearby and who listened in our conversation, he

 2    said, and I noted earlier, that he thought that one of those soldiers,

 3    Djoko Nikolic, was at home because this man was in private business."  Did

 4    you ever suggest to Sreco Acimovic that Djoko Nikolic could be used to

 5    transport the prisoners?

 6       A.   I said that once.  For five days, I was in Malesic during the

 7    campaign in Srebrenica and the breakthrough from Srebrenica via Baljkovica

 8    to Muslim territory around Tuzla.  I didn't even know where my wife and

 9    children were, let alone some -- who would be in what --

10       Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, in your statement, or your interview, you

11    said that when you were waiting in the hallway, that Sreco Acimovic spent

12    a long time in that office.  Is that correct?

13       A.   Yes, correct.

14       Q.   And you also mentioned in your interview that according to you,

15    when you looked into the gym, you estimated that there was from 100 to 150

16    prisoners.  Is that correct?  Is that your estimate?

17       A.   Yes.  I may have overestimated the number but it was -- it's a

18    rough number.

19       Q.   And when you went home, in your interview you stated that one of

20    the reasons was that you took a pill because you had a headache.  Do you

21    recall saying this in your interview?

22       A.   Yes, yes.  I don't know who did not have a headache on that day.

23    Everybody must have had it.

24       Q.   And I'd like to know the -- after coming back from your house, to

25    the best of your recollection, what time would it have been?

Page 18078

 1       A.   Well, between 12.00 and 1.00 p.m. or 1.30.  I don't know exactly.

 2    Thereabouts.

 3       Q.   And also in your -- when you testified earlier about this man that

 4    had a conversation with Sreco Acimovic when you came back, you stated that

 5    he was there for a very short time.  Is that -- do you recall saying this

 6    in your interview?

 7       A.   I remember.  I was absent some 40 minutes to 60 minutes because I

 8    went home to take a bath, change, and take a pill because of my headache.

 9    When that vehicle arrived, I wasn't there.  Whether they were in the

10    school or not, I don't know.  I only know that they were standing in front

11    of the goal of the soccer pitch, and I passed them by at a distance of

12    some 10 or 15 metres, walking toward my car.

13       Q.   I'd like to have Exhibit 3D100 on e-court, please.  Sir, I'm going

14    to show you a sketch.  I'd like you to -- which will appear in front of

15    you.  I'd like you to tell me if you recognise this sketch.  Can we reduce

16    it a bit so we have the complete sketch?  Like this.  It's perfect.

17            Sir, do you recognise this sketch?

18       A.   No, no.  Turn it the other way.  Not that way.  Now it's good.

19    Now it's good.  I know this sketch.

20       Q.   And what is it?

21       A.   This is a sketch of the school at Rocevic, at the sports grounds,

22    two residential buildings, across the road from the school a shop, and the

23    road toward my house.

24       Q.   I'm going to ask to you make some markings on this sketch with the

25    assistance of the usher.  I explained to you when we met that there was a

Page 18079

 1    special pen that will be give town.  I'd like you to write the number 1

 2    with a circle around it where you parked your car that day?

 3       A.   [Marks]

 4       Q.   Can you put -- make a circle around that number?

 5       A.   [Marks]  It's a little big but all right.

 6       Q.   And can you mark a number 2 where the United Nations carrier was?

 7       A.   Number 2?

 8       Q.   Yes, sir.

 9       A.   [Marks]

10       Q.   And can you put a number 3 where that conversation took place

11    between the unknown man and Sreco Acimovic?

12       A.   Number 3.  [Marks].

13       Q.   And if you can put a number 4 where the Campagnola, that four

14    wheel drive jeep, where that was?

15       A.   [Marks] On the road.  The village road.

16       Q.   And can you put a number 5 where the door by which you entered the

17    school, when you came in the first time, when you arrive for the first

18    time in Rocevic?

19       A.   [Marks]

20       Q.   And can you put an arrow and the number 6 indicating the way

21    towards your house?

22       A.   [Marks]

23       Q.   Thank you.  In the bottom right corner, can you put your initials,

24    DJ, and put today's date, which is 21 November 2007?

25       A.   [Marks]  Which date is it?

Page 18080

 1       Q.   21 November.

 2       A.   The 21st of November?

 3       Q.   Yes.

 4       A.   I confused that too.  [Marks] 21.11.07.

 5       Q.   Yes.  Just one question, we can save this, please.  Just one

 6    question.  Where you indicated the one with your car, would I be right in

 7    saying that your car was further between those two buildings; is that

 8    correct?

 9       A.   Yes, inside, or rather, in there, because there is enough space.

10       Q.   Thank you.  Now, the moment at which Sreco Acimovic came to tell

11    you that the prisoners had to be killed, is that shortly after this

12    unknown man left?  Was that when this took place?

13       A.   Right after that, and I believe that Sreco Acimovic never did

14    anything on his own.  He only obeyed orders.  And he didn't listen to his

15    subordinates, to his soldiers.  He respected Mr. Pandurevic more than his

16    own father.

17       Q.   And would I be right in saying that -- you mentioned already that

18    you told Sreco Acimovic that it was wrong, what he was -- what he wanted

19    to do.  Can you just explain how you felt when you were told about this

20    order?

21       A.   That is impossible to say in one sentence.  It is a huge stress

22    when you're told something like that, because I expected an exchange,

23    because we are not talking about one man or two men.  It's a greater

24    number of people.  And I tried to tell him somehow, and he was probably

25    lost, but he must certainly have had an order.

Page 18081

 1            But he said, "It's an order.  We have to do it."  And I don't know

 2    from whom that order was because I never had a Motorola or access to a

 3    telephone or a telegraph.  I couldn't send or receive any such messages,

 4    nor could I sleep there.

 5       Q.   And in your -- during your interview, you stated the following

 6    about Sreco Acimovic, that he was a man who would always render his

 7    orders, orders that he would always receive, 120 per cent, not even 100

 8    per cent.

 9            Does that correspond to your knowledge of Sreco Acimovic?

10       A.   Yes, exactly.  And that can also be corroborated by

11    Mr. Pandurevic.  Whenever the -- our forces went, were deployed, and we

12    know where they were deployed from Zvornik over Sarajevo over to Krajina,

13    Sreco Acimovic always sent as many soldiers as he was required to,

14    possibly he would even send more but never fewer.  He was a car

15    electrician but in the army he was a commander.

16       Q.   And again during your interview on page 12, you stated the

17    following about Acimovic:  "He's a tough man.  He is not cooperative.  He

18    is only -- he is only important for himself.  He thinks that he is the

19    smartest and one cannot talk to him.  You cannot, in discussion with him,

20    contribute in any way.  He has his opinion and nobody else matters."

21            Does that correspond to your knowledge of Sreco Acimovic?

22       A.   Exactly.  He could only talk with a high-ranking officers, but he

23    wouldn't talk to soldiers.  There was no discussion with soldiers.  They

24    were -- they had to execute his orders.

25       Q.   And when I look at -- when you say you returned home and you saw

Page 18082

 1    Veljko Ivanovic, you don't know who asked or who ordered him to come to

 2    the school; is that correct?

 3       A.   No.  Veljko had his commander, in the rear, who decided where a

 4    vehicle should go and who should sign the relevant order.  (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13    (redacted)

14    (redacted)

15       A.   Yes, thank you.

16       Q.   Now, during that first trip to Kozluk, it was Ivanovic who was

17    driving the truck; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And the only reason you went with him was because you were

20    familiar with that area because you were a private entrepreneur before the

21    war?

22       A.   Yes.  Sreco ordered me to go with Veljko Ivanovic to show him the

23    way on his first trip there, and Sreco, before the war, also transported

24    gravel in a tractor just like myself.  He also knew the place.

25       Q.   Okay.  And on that first trip, in the back of this truck, my

Page 18083

 1    understanding, based on your testimony, is that there was some prisoners

 2    on the truck as well as three or four military police; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And during your interview, you stated, on page 5, concerning these

 5    soldiers, and I will read what you said, "So I did not know these

 6    soldiers.  They were military police.  They said that they were from the

 7    Bratunac Brigade, but I never saw them and I would not be able to

 8    recognise them today."  Is that a fair summary of your --

 9       A.   Correct.

10       Q.   -- testimony?

11       A.   Correct.

12       Q.   Now, those -- to the best of your knowledge, those three or four

13    military police who were on that first trip, they were part of the

14    military police that were guarding the prisoners at the school, it was the

15    same people; is that correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And when you returned to the school, you had to make two trips to

18    get the truck from Mico Stanojevic because his wife and mother had refused

19    to give you the keys; is that correct?

20       A.   Correct.

21       Q.   Now, are you sure that Sreco Acimovic did go with to you get that

22    vehicle the second time?

23       A.   200 per cent sure.

24       Q.   Now, about Djoko Nikolic, you mentioned in your testimony today

25    that you still do not remember whether he was there or not; is that

Page 18084

 1    correct?

 2       A.   I don't remember.  That man never helped me or harmed me, but I

 3    don't remember.  Nor did we talk about that any -- at any time.

 4       Q.   So if Sreco Acimovic testified that you proposed the name of Djoko

 5    Nikolic, this does not correspond to what you remember; is that correct?

 6       A.   That's a lie.  That's a lie.  How should I have known where Djoko

 7    Nikolic was, whether he was at home?  I had my car to care about, and

 8    Sreco was in a position to command both me and my car.  And he also gave

 9    orders to go to the front line and back.

10       Q.   Only a few more questions.  During the time that you were at

11    Rocevic school, and the trips you made to Kozluk, I take it that did you

12    not see any other member of the 2nd Battalion; is that correct?

13       A.   When I came to Rocevic with Sreco, I saw nobody.  Later, I

14    couldn't see anyone because I drove a truck.  And later on, certainly not,

15    in front of the school, only the military police and a few -- you're

16    talking about the executions, I went there with Veljko on the first trip,

17    and when I went there with the vehicle of Mico Stanojevic, there were also

18    soldiers there, but about the rest, no, just military police.

19       Q.   And these soldiers, you did not recognise any of them, and they

20    were unknown to you; is that correct?

21       A.   I know five military police at the most who were from the

22    surroundings but not more.  I know who was killed and who was injured at

23    Baljkovica.  But the military police, or 99 per cent of them, were at

24    Baljkovica.

25       Q.   And you just mentioned that you, to use your words --

Page 18085

 1       A.   The Zvornik Brigade.

 2       Q.   Yes.  So you just testified that you know five military police at

 3    the most who were from the surroundings, from Zvornik Brigade, but these

 4    people, you did not see them at Rocevic or at Kozluk; is that correct?

 5       A.   Correct.  I didn't know that as military police.

 6       Q.   And I take it that you know who Drago Nikolic is, maybe not

 7    personally, but you know what he looks like; is that correct?

 8       A.   Yes, I know.

 9       Q.   And I take it that you never saw Drago Nikolic in and/or around

10    Rocevic school or Kozluk on those days; is that correct?

11       A.   Correct.

12       Q.   And the name Drago Nikolic was never mentioned either by Sreco

13    Acimovic or by anyone else during this period or during that day in 1995;

14    is that correct?

15       A.   I know that I didn't see him, and I cannot guarantee for Sreco

16    Acimovic, especially bearing in mind his statements.

17       Q.   Now, I'm not talking whether someone else saw him, but the name

18    was not mentioned when in your presence on that day?

19       A.   No, nobody.

20       Q.   Now, I'd like to mention a few names to see if you can confirm

21    that these people who are members of the 2nd Battalion command, Zdravko

22    Ilic, he's a member of the 2nd Battalion command; is that correct?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And Stevo Savic is also a member of the 2nd Battalion command?

25       A.   Yes.  He's the deputy battalion commander.

Page 18086

 1       Q.   And Mile Lazarevic is also somebody who is from the 2nd Battalion

 2    command?

 3       A.   Yes.  I don't know his exact duty.

 4       Q.   And --?

 5       A.   Desk officer.

 6       Q.   And Zico?

 7       A.   Zico Pisic, his father's name is Stevo.  He was commander of the

 8    rear.  Because there were two men of that name.  That's why I'm saying

 9    that this one is the son of Stevo, and he was the commander of the rear.

10    And I remember Vujo, who was in charge of moral guidance.

11       Q.   [Previous translation continued]...  Vujo Lazarevic correct?

12       A.   Vujo Lazarevic, yes, yes.  And Zoran Jovic, another desk officer

13    or administrator for the payroll in the military.  That's what I can

14    remember at this time.

15       Q.   Now, bearing in mind these people at the command, my question is

16    the following:  Either on those days in July of 1995 or at any other time

17    since then, you never heard or learned about a telegram being sent to the

18    2nd Battalion command asking Sreco Acimovic to send volunteers from the

19    2nd Battalion to execute the prisoners; is that correct?

20       A.   No.  I never heard of that.  I heard that on the TV when he was in

21    the court proceedings, that he was asked to set aside an execution

22    platoon.  He said that there were no available soldiers and that's

23    correct.  Therefore, that's definitely not true.  I never heard of that.

24    I never heard of that telegram or saw anything.  A lot of the soldiers

25    from the 2nd Battalion were seconded because things weren't looking up.

Page 18087

 1    The soldiers knew that.  The officers knew that.  Because things did not

 2    go as planned.

 3       Q.   And you yourself, sir, personally, when you took those people to

 4    Kozluk, you never saw or heard any executions taking place when you were

 5    there; is that correct?

 6       A.   I don't understand the question.

 7       Q.   When taking -- either when you were driving with Ivanovic or when

 8    you were driving your truck from --

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   When you went to Kozluk, you never saw executions yourself?

11       A.   No.  That's correct.  I didn't.

12       Q.   And just maybe one last question, the -- in your interview you

13    stated that it is Acimovic who selected Kozluk as the execution site; is

14    that correct?

15       A.   He said that the executions should take place at Kozluk.  Whether

16    this was ordered to him or whether this was his decision, the location,

17    the site, I can't talk about that.  I wouldn't want to err.

18            MR. BOURGON:  If I can just have one quick minute to check my

19    notes, I think I'm done, Mr. President.

20                          [Defence counsel confer]

21            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you very much, sir.  I have no further

22    questions.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

24            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 18088

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic?

 2            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I have no questions for this witness.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Meek?

 4            MR. MEEK:  Your Honour, I have no questions.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Stojanovic, no questions?

 6            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau?

 8            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I have no

 9    questions.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Krgovic?  None?  Or Mr. Josse?

11            MR. JOSSE:  None, as indicated.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Haynes?

13            MR. HAYNES:  Just two or three.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.  Leave about two minutes before the time

15    because Mr. McCloskey wishes to address the Chamber.

16            MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.

17                          Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

18       Q.   Mr. Jovic, I want to begin by asking you a question or two

19    about --

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   -- the day before you drove to Kozluk.  Do you understand?

22       A.   Yes.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  The gentleman who is putting questions to you is

24    Defence counsel for Pandurevic.

25            MR. HAYNES:

Page 18089

 1       Q.   You've told us that on that day, that that was the first time that

 2    you heard about the presence of prisoners at Rocevic.  Is that right?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And at the time that you heard, you were at or near the command of

 5    the 2nd Battalion at Malesici?

 6       A.   In front of the command at the place where the soldiers, the

 7    logistics people, gathered.  Not the check-point but the gate at the

 8    entrance into the headquarters, some 10, 20 metres away.  So I was in

 9    front of the command.  In a garden, let's put it that way.

10       Q.   Thank you.  And as far as you were aware, the person who brought

11    that message conveyed it to the people inside the command building; is

12    that right?

13       A.   I don't know who conveyed it to the command.  The man who came up

14    from Rocevici, he told those who were gathered there.  We were listening

15    to the fighting that was going on day and night.  We were sitting there

16    and we couldn't hear a single good -- a single good piece of news.  We

17    were listening to the fighting.  Now, who conveyed this to Sreco, if

18    anyone from the people who were at the gate conveyed that to him, I don't

19    know about that.

20       Q.   But in any event, the following day, you went with him to Rocevic;

21    that's correct, isn't it?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And it appeared to you, didn't it, during the course of that

24    journey, that he was surprised to learn that prisoners were being held in

25    the school at Rocevic?

Page 18090

 1       A.   Well, I wouldn't put it that way.  I think that it was maybe

 2    through a telegram or some other sort of communications device, he had

 3    known already of these prisoners.  That's my opinion.  He would be the one

 4    who would know best if he received it in writing or in some other way,

 5    because he had all of that, writing, the oral information, Motorolas.  He

 6    had everything with him at the command.  Which was operational.

 7       Q.   But when you arrived at the school, the first thing that he did

 8    was to get Boro Lakic to open the office for him so he had access to

 9    telephones; is that right?

10       A.   Certainly.

11       Q.   And did you see the office opened by Boro Lakic?

12       A.   I don't remember.  I know that there was the man there who was in

13    charge of the school.  He had the keys to the teachers' offices because

14    after all, the school books, with the students' marks were there,

15    stationery, and he was in charge of that to make sure nothing went

16    missing, and I'm sure that Boro opened the door to the office since there

17    was a telephone set in the office.  Sreco had his Motorola.  Now, what the

18    range of a Motorola is, others know that.  I don't.  Of course, one can do

19    whatever one needs to with a telephone.

20       Q.   And I think it's right, isn't it, that you remained at the school

21    for about an hour before you went home to take a pill?

22       A.   Thereabouts.

23       Q.   And during that time, there was no question of Sreco Acimovic

24    giving orders for prisoners to be killed or anything like that?

25       A.   No, no.

Page 18091

 1       Q.   But when you returned, there was a jeep vehicle there and a man

 2    you hadn't seen before conversing with Sreco Acimovic on the playground;

 3    is that correct?

 4       A.   Correct.

 5       Q.   And it was after that conversation that you saw that there was the

 6    first discussion about prisoners being killed; is that right?

 7       A.   From Sreco, yes.

 8       Q.   And following that, you were dispatched to the house of a man

 9    called Draskovic, correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And you've told us you were an officer without rank.  Did you have

12    any authority to give him an order?

13       A.   No, not to anyone.

14       Q.   But Sreco Acimovic would have given -- had the authority to give

15    him an order, would he?

16       A.   Well, I don't believe he would have one in relation to him because

17    Draskovic was not a member of the army.  After his brother had been

18    killed, he was released from military duty because I believe that the rule

19    was that where one of the brothers was killed, the other one should be

20    placed -- assigned to the rear or released from duty, especially if they

21    are poor.  And I know that Draskovic's brother and the other two men who

22    were with them who were killed, their bodies had never been found.  They

23    had never been given a burial.  Today, the Muslims live there and nobody

24    made the effort of finding their bodies and having their bones laid to

25    rest.

Page 18092

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  How many more --

 2            MR. HAYNES:  This is the last question.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Go ahead.

 4            MR. HAYNES:

 5       Q.   But when he declined the invitation to take part in executing

 6    prisoners, nothing was done about it; is that right?  Sreco didn't go

 7    along and say, "You've got to do this"?

 8       A.   To whom?

 9       Q.   To Mr. Draskovic.

10       A.   No.  He didn't ask for Draskovic.  He sent me to ask Draskovic

11    whether he would want to go and execute Muslims.  And my conclusion was

12    that he got this idea because he believed that perhaps Draskovic would

13    want to take vengeance for his brother who had been killed and whose body

14    has never been found, and how many years have passed since?  He did not

15    order anything.  He merely sent me.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  The question was whether, when Draskovic refused to

17    take part in the executions, whether he was punished or whether any action

18    was taken against him.  And your answer is no?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

20            MR. HAYNES:  Thank you, I have no further questions.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was on a voluntary basis.

23    Practically to enable him to revenge his brother.  That's how I understood

24    it.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  And Mr. Nicholls, do you have a re-examination?

Page 18093

 1            MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honours.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  We don't have any further questions for you,

 3    Mr. Jovic, which means you can go.  Thank you for coming over to give

 4    testimony and we wish you a safe journey back home.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                          [The witness withdrew]

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  We will do the exhibits tomorrow.  In the meantime,

 8    who is going to address the Trial Chamber?  Mr. Nicholls?  Yes,

 9    Mr. Nicholls?

10            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour it's a matter for scheduling.  It

11    can be in open session if we don't use names.  I sent out an e-mail to my

12    colleagues that I believe was forwarded to Your Honours staff that we may

13    have a change tomorrow.  I have not got any new information on the health

14    status of the witness who was scheduled to be next.  I'll check on that

15    after court right now.  My indications that I received earlier today is

16    that he was quite ill, so our proposal was to continue the

17    cross-examination of Mr. Blaszczyk which had been scheduled for Friday in

18    any event.  In other words, to swap these two witnesses and to give the

19    scheduled Witness 190 time to recuperate and that would be the plan.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  So we'll see what happens

21    tomorrow.  Thank you, have a nice evening.  See you tomorrow in the

22    afternoon at 2.15.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

24                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

25                          November, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.