1                          Tuesday, 4 December 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 6    case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Merci.  All the accused are here.  From the Defence

10    teams I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes.

11            Prosecution, it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Nicholls who are present.

12            I don't see the witness.  Are there any preliminaries?

13            MR. NICHOLLS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Yes, briefly.  First

14    of all, just a bit of the housekeeping and schedule.  We, the Prosecution,

15    is not going to be calling Witness 183.  We have decided not to call that

16    witness.  That's Danilo Zoljic.  He's not a protected witness.  And he was

17    scheduled for later on in this week.  What we intend to do is to call an

18    investigator to talk about the Muslim identification book and explain what

19    that book is and what it shows.  What we would propose to do is have our

20    investigator Erin Gallagher testify about that book.  She is not on our

21    witness list so we would be seeking to add her just for that topic.  It's

22    something which Mr. Blaszczyk could do.  He's been our sort of

23    catch-all for everything that comes up as an investigator.  He's on the

24    list.  But we would like to give him a bit of a break at the moment and

25    he's got other things I'm sure he needs to work.  And I don't think there

 1    is any prejudice in that because it's really something that any

 2    investigator could do once they look at the exhibit and learn about it.  I

 3    know in other cases that I've been on we have listed initially on our

 4    witness list an investigator will discuss how this picture was obtained or

 5    something like that.  So that is our plan and what we hope to do following

 6    Witness 164 who is available today, Mr. Petrovic, Pirocanac.

 7            And one further point, I've discussed this with Mr. Ostojic, the

 8    way we plan to proceed if it's all right with Your Honours is we'll finish

 9    this entire testimony concerning the Muslim book, cross-examination --

10    road book, excuse me, cross-examination and any redirect.  Then

11    Mr. Ostojic will finish his cross-examination regarding the Drina Corps

12    collection.  I think I'll have a short redirect and then we can move to

13    the next witness.  That's our plan.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Do you confirm that, Mr. Ostojic?

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  I do, Mr. President.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, before we proceed any further, what are your

17    comments, if any, about the Prosecution request to add a new witness,

18    Erin Gallagher to testify on the Muslim ID book?  The alternative is,

19    obviously, that it will be dealt with by Mr. Blaszczyk himself, so I see

20    no point in -- this anyway, Ms. Nikolic?

21            MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

22    afternoon, my learned friends from the Prosecution.  Concerning this

23    change, we've exchanged a few e-mails and letters with our friends from

24    the Prosecution on that topic.  What Defence teams request, at least the

25    Nikolic Defence, was that they forward a short 65 ter summary for this

 1    witness so that we would know what his testimony would be in regard of the

 2    book.

 3            Since she did not participate in the collection of statements,

 4    based on which the people from the book were identified, we haven't

 5    received a summary, therefore we are still waiting for that and the

 6    material provided by our learned friends so that we would know about the

 7    subject matter of her testimony.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you.  Yes, Mr. Nicholls?  Go ahead.

 9                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

11            MR. NICHOLLS:  We could certainly do a short 65 ter summary.  I

12    don't think it's absolutely necessary because if I give you a little bit

13    of information on the book, this is virtually the same with some

14    corrections.  It's the same Muslim identification book which has been

15    exhibited in the two prior trials.  It contains pictures of persons from

16    the videos and their names and explains how they've been identified either

17    by themselves for some people who made it through these events or whether

18    they've been identified by family members or others.  So what the

19    investigator will do is explain really what's in the book and how it's put

20    together.  There is not going to be a whole lot of information coming in

21    from outside the book but I can provide something very short, I think,

22    which explains how that is going to work.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think that would be better.  I think that would be

24    better.  So for the time being, I take it that there are no radical or

25    fundamental objections to this witness being brought over to deal with

 1    this piece of evidence rather than Mr. Blaszczyk himself.  Am I right in

 2    thinking so?  I know that silence is golden but ... All right.  Thank you.

 3    So I would take it that this would be the procedure we will be following.

 4    One moment.

 5                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are also thinking on this subject matter based on

 7    our respective past experiences whether there is indeed any need for a

 8    witness to come and testify on this book.  Obviously, if there is going to

 9    be a cross-examination, then obviously the need for a witness arises.  But

10    there is agreement between the two sides that the book will be tendered

11    and the information you seek to produce arises or shows on the face of the

12    book itself, then perhaps you can agree to dispense with the need of a

13    witness.  But if there is even one single Defence counsel that wishes to

14    cross-examine anyone in particular on this Muslim ID book, then obviously

15    you need a witness.  But in any case, message is if you require a witness,

16    the witness is going to be allowed to testify.  If you come to an

17    agreement that you can dispense of a witness, please let us know and we

18    can proceed accordingly.

19            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, and I'll talk to my friends, Your Honours and

20    see if we can do that.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Okay.  Anything else?  Mr. Ostojic?

22            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon, Your

23    Honours.  I'd like, if we can, to go into private session and raise this

24    issue.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  By all means.  Let's go into private session,

 1    please.

 2                          [Private session]

 3  (redacted)

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25  (redacted)

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 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8                          [Open session]

 9                          [The witness entered court]

10                          WITNESS:  TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, Mr. Blaszczyk.

12            THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome back.  We are going to finish off the

14    chapter that we were discussing yesterday and then we'll revert to your

15    previous testimony with Mr. Ostojic's cross-examination.

16            Mr. Nicholls.

17            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18                          Examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

19       Q.   If we could just continue, we were in chapter 4, Zeleni Jadar, at

20    pages 70 and 71.  When we left off, we were nearing the end of this

21    presentation, at least in pages.  I think about 20 minutes or slightly

22    less of video and we will just continue and stop at a couple of places.

23    If we could play it, please.

24                          [Videotape played]

25            MR. NICHOLLS:

 1       Q.   This is not in the book but I've stopped it at 48.26.  We've just

 2    seen the car moving now again, shooting out of the window of the car and

 3    we were passing a couple of large buildings.  Can you tell us where

 4    Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Borovcanin are going, which direction they are

 5    heading in now and where they are?

 6       A.   They are going towards Srebrenica.  This is an overview of

 7    Srebrenica from the hills above Srebrenica on the way from Zeleni Jadar to

 8    Srebrenica.

 9       Q.   Okay.  And, Your Honours, if we could go now to pages 66 and 67 of

10    the book, 2986.  The reason for that is there is one chapter which just

11    have a few pictures of Srebrenica and it has the pictures that we saw

12    yesterday on the way to the wood factory and also on the way back rather

13    than splitting the town photos up into two sections.  Yes, 66 and 67.  I

14    think we have 76 on the monitor.  That's right.  Thank you.  And if we

15    could continue to play.

16                          [Videotape played]

17            MR. NICHOLLS:

18       Q.   Thank you.  We are now at just about the frame on page 66 A.  Can

19    you tell us where this is, Mr. Blaszczyk?

20       A.   This is Srebrenica.  The car is moving towards the centre of

21    Srebrenica, to the place close to this market mosque.

22       Q.   Thank you.  And if we could continue to the next photo on page

23    66 B?

24                          [Videotape played]

25            MR. NICHOLLS:

 1       Q.   Thank you.  We are now at approximately the photo on page 66 B.

 2    And you've marked it here but this is -- well, you tell us where we are,

 3    please?

 4       A.   We are in the centre of Srebrenica.  This is the street between

 5    the market in Srebrenica, market square, and the department store in

 6    Srebrenica.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  Actually, Your Honours, it's not a question for

 8    Mr. Blaszczyk but we've included these photos so that later it may help to

 9    identify places on a different video.

10            If we could continue now.

11                          [Videotape played]

12            MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  We are now at page 74 B which is the last

13    chapter 5, Mosque Azemina.  This is, I think, quite self explanatory but

14    where are we now, Mr. Blaszczyk, in the video and which direction is

15    Mr. Petrovic heading in?

16       A.   We are at the edge of Srebrenica.  This is Vidikovac settlement

17    and the car with Mr. Borovcanin and Petrovic is driving towards Bratunac,

18    Potocari, Bratunac, and we see the picture of the mosque located in this

19    Vidikovac settlement.  And on page 75, I attached two current pictures of

20    the same mosque.  The first picture, picture number 1 from page 75, this

21    is the same -- the view from the side of Srebrenica, from the direction of

22    Srebrenica, of the same mosque.  And on the picture number 2 from page 75,

23    this is view of the same mosque but from direction of -- from Potocari.

24            MR. NICHOLLS:  All right.  We can play now.

25                          [Videotape played]

 1            MR. NICHOLLS:  This is just before the end at

 2       Q.   Do you know where this is, just this last big hills we see just

 3    before the tape ends?

 4       A.   The last hill is according to Witness Petrovic, it was recorded in

 5    Serbia already.

 6       Q.   Thank you.

 7                          [Videotape played]

 8            MR. NICHOLLS:  We can stop.

 9            Thank you.  I don't have any other questions at this time.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.  Does any one of the

11    Defence team wish to cross-examine the witness?  Let's go through the list

12    first.  I had the Popovic team asking for ten minutes.

13            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, we have no questions for this witness, Your

14    Honours.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

16            The Beara team wanted 30 minutes.

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  We will a have a few questions, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead, please.  Unless there is an agreement with

19    some other Defence team that they go first.

20                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

21       Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  I have a couple --

22       A.   Good afternoon.

23       Q.   I have a couple questions just to follow up on some of the points

24    that my learned friend asked you.  When he asked you yesterday about the

25    software that was used to put together this book, I think on page 60 and

 1    61 you stated that it was used -- or Zoran Lesic is the person who

 2    actually used the software and created this?

 3       A.   It was the person Zoran Lesic.  He created, yeah, he created this

 4    presentation with my help of course.  I was present during this

 5    presentation.

 6       Q.   Did you ever find the name of that software?

 7       A.   I knew the name and I believe this is VR Worx, and plus Photoshop,

 8    of course.  And it was played in QuickTime player.

 9       Q.   Now, what part of this presentation or this -- that you shared

10    with us today, what part was created by Zoran and which was created by

11    you?  I know you mentioned that you participated in it but --

12       A.   You mean technically it was created by Zoran Lesic, but I was

13    present during this creation.  I confirmed all the locations and I was the

14    person who pointed out where we should put the particular places or

15    pictures, how we should play with them.

16       Q.   Okay.  And if we can have 65 ter 1517 up on the screen, please?

17    While that's coming up, sir, you mentioned this and it's an aerial

18    photograph that you mentioned on page 32, line 17, on yesterday's

19    transcript.  I just have a couple of questions on that, if you don't mind.

20            Well, I think I can still ask the question until they get up on

21    the screen because I'm sure you're familiar with it; it's the aerial

22    photograph on the 13th of July in Potocari.  Can you tell me more about

23    that aerial photograph?  From whom did you receive it?

24       A.   This is aerial photograph from our exhibit list.  I don't remember

25    right now from where we received it, but I believe it was aerial

 1    photograph from US.

 2       Q.   Okay.  I know it's on the exhibit list.  I'm asking for the

 3    source.  As you sit here today under oath, do you know if it was aerial

 4    photograph that the United States government provided to the OTP?

 5       A.   Yeah.  This is -- this is the photograph provided to us by the

 6    government of US.

 7       Q.   Okay.  Do you know who put the markings on this photograph, sir?

 8       A.   No, I don't know.

 9       Q.   Do you know who put the top caption that's in the box which states

10    overview of Potocari, Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11       A.   No, I don't know.

12       Q.   Do you know who added the red numbers on the right-hand side of

13    that box that's on the top centre of the photograph?

14       A.   It's evidence unit.

15       Q.   Evidence unit --

16       A.   I believe this is evidence unit.

17       Q.   Where in the United --

18       A.   No, evidence unit, it's our ERN number.

19       Q.   And I'm only stopping because I think we are overlapping a little

20    bit and I apologise to you, sir.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Not a little bit, a lot.

22            THE WITNESS:  I apologise.

23            MR. OSTOJIC:

24       Q.   We are overlapping a lot.  Just so I'm clear, sir, in this centre

25    box that's presented here on the right-hand side, that's the evidence

 1    unit's identification number that they placed on this document here in The

 2    Hague after they received it from the US government, correct?

 3       A.   This red letters with number were put by evidence unit.  This is

 4    our ERN number.

 5       Q.   And what about the date that appears immediately below the box

 6    that's in the centre of the page, 13 July 1995?  Who placed that there?

 7       A.   I don't know.

 8       Q.   Okay.  When did you receive this aerial photograph?

 9       A.   It was long time ago, before I arrived when I joined the Tribunal,

10    for sure.

11       Q.   Now, did you assist also in selecting that this photograph be used

12    as part of the presentation that you're going to give in your testimony?

13       A.   No, I didn't.

14       Q.   Who made that selection?

15       A.   I don't know.

16       Q.   Now, being the lead investigator at least for the last year and a

17    half plus, and being the -- playing that role in the years that you have

18    as second in command, can you tell me what efforts you undertook to

19    determine not only the source of the documents but who may have placed the

20    writing in yellow on this photograph?  Did you do any inquiries into that?

21       A.   No, I didn't.

22       Q.   Do you know anyone who did, who was under your command or superior

23    to you?

24       A.   I don't think so.

25       Q.   How about with respect to the box that's in the centre of the page

 1    that we see where it's identified as overview which has the red ERN number

 2    on it?

 3       A.   Also the same answer.

 4       Q.   And would it be the same answer for the date that falls underneath

 5    that box in the centre page?

 6       A.   I believe it was created by investigators before me who used to

 7    work for this case much before.

 8       Q.   And are you speaking of a particular investigator, sir?

 9       A.   There was a group of investigators, more than right now.

10       Q.   Was that under the leadership and tutelage of Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez?

11       A.   Yes, I believe.

12       Q.   Thank you.  I think we are done with that exhibit.  Sir, I want to

13    just clarify, if I may, the point because in the beginning of your

14    testimony yesterday, you mentioned that you received several copies of

15    this Petrovic video:  One from the BBC, one from himself, one from the

16    Ministry of Defence and I think also one from Studio B, correct?

17       A.   I am not aware about any copy from Studio B.  I know that we

18    received a copy from broadcast of Studio B from Mr. Borovcanin and another

19    copy we received from Mr. Petrovic.

20       Q.   So there is only two copies that you received, correct?

21       A.   If you are speaking about the copy of Studio B broadcast, yes.

22       Q.   And in all fairness, I know that it was the Studio B broadcast

23    that came as you've identified it from Mr. Borovcanin.  So is it just

24    those two videos that you had in your possession and you showed us the

25    difference between the two where you felt it was edited, correct?

 1       A.   If we are referring to the Studio B edited programme, yes.

 2       Q.   Okay.  And now, you mentioned though in your testimony that you

 3    also received a copy of the Petrovic video from BBC in 2002.  What was

 4    that about then?

 5       A.   I don't know but I know that we received a copy from BBC of the

 6    raw material -- the copy of the raw material from Mr. Petrovic.

 7       Q.   What about the copy of the Petrovic video as you identified it

 8    from the Ministry of Defence in 2007?

 9       A.   What do you want to know?

10       Q.   Well, is that also a copy of a video that you received that is

11    similar or the same as that -- those copies of videos that you received

12    from either Studio B or from Mr. Borovcanin or Mr. Petrovic?

13       A.   This is also the copied material of the raw material of

14    Mr. Petrovic as the BBC copy.

15       Q.   So the 2007 video from the Ministry of Defence was the same

16    material which you identify as raw material that you received from

17    Mr. Petrovic identified as the BBC copy, correct?

18       A.   Yes, is correct.

19       Q.   Thank you.  That's all I have on this issue and I think with the

20    Court's permission we will come back to the Drina Corps collection a

21    little later today.  Thank you, sir.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.  Madam Nikolic, no

23    cross-examination.  Mr. Stojanovic, you had asked for 20 minutes.

24            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

25                          Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 1       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Blaszczyk.

 2       A.   Good afternoon, sir.

 3       Q.   Let us go through a couple of exhibits in order to eliminate any

 4    misunderstandings that may have arisen from yesterday's evidence.  Let us

 5    look at P02478 first, please.  And while we are waiting for this exhibit

 6    to appear, I will only let you know that this is one of the aerial

 7    photographs of the industrial zone in Potocari.  Which is ERN number

 8    01068728, 01068728.  And can Madam Usher assist us in providing

 9    Mr. Blaszczyk with a pencil in order for him to make certain markings?

10    Thank you.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Wait, Mr. Stojanovic.

12            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   Mr. Blaszczyk, I believe that we can orientate ourselves as to the

14    buildings or facilities that are involved here.  I suppose it wouldn't be

15    much of a difficulty for you to identify the buildings?

16       A.   You are right.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Can you please use the pen that you have and mark with

18    a cross the place where you located a group containing

19    Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin and Mr. Kingori on the 13th of July in front of

20    the white house, as you called it?

21       A.   [Marks]

22       Q.   Thank you.  Would you please mark the place where the entrance

23    into the UN base in Potocari was?

24       A.   [Marks]

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  We can't have everything an X.  So if you put an

 1    arrow -- you know, you can cancel that mark?

 2            THE WITNESS:  How come?

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Usher will assist you.  You can erase it and

 4    then do it again and just put an arrow sort of mark.

 5            THE WITNESS:  I should mark as --

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Just an arrow indicating the entrance or following

 7    the entrance to the compound.

 8            THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 9            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Could you please place the letter O or a circle on the place where

11    the observation post used by the UN base was, if you know where it was

12    located, of course?

13       A.   You mean OP?  Or observation post in front of you?

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know whether it fits in this photo but, the

15    nearest OP, I doubt it having been there, I doubt it.

16            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

17       Q.   And Mr. Blaszczyk, we are not talking about the OP Papa, that's

18    the closest.  Rather, I'm referring to whether you know whether there was

19    an observation post within the UN base compound in Potocari, in fact the

20    site that you were just looking at.

21       A.   It was on the left side of the road heading towards Srebrenica.

22    But I am not 100 per cent sure, but I am thinking that the place is close

23    to -- close to entrance to the base.

24       Q.   Can you please indicate with a circle roughly where the

25    observation post was?

 1       A.   I'm not sure about it.  [Marks]

 2       Q.   Thank you.  In view of your familiarity with the place, can you

 3    give us the approximate distance between the place you marked with a cross

 4    as the place where Mr. Borovcanin, Kingori and the others were and the

 5    place you marked with an arrow as the entrance leading into the UN base.

 6    In your estimate, what is the distance in metres?

 7       A.   It's about 50 metres, the distance is about 50 metres from the

 8    entrance to the UN base to the place where Mr. Kingori and Borovcanin were

 9    standing in the group.

10       Q.   You'll agree with me that there were no obstacles there impeding

11    the line of sight toward the building that we refer to as the white house?

12       A.   Yes, yes, I agree.

13       Q.   Thank you.  Could you please place today's date at the bottom

14    there and your signature because we will not be needing this.  It's the

15    4th of December and your signature, please.

16       A.   [Marks]

17       Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday in your testimony inter alia, at page 18626,

18    lines 6 to 8, you said the following:  Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Borovcanin

19    stopped their vehicle between the white building and the blue building,

20    the distance between which was some 100 to 150 metres.  Do you remember

21    that part of your testimony?

22       A.   Yes.  I remember but I think I said that I think that they parked

23    the car over there because the first footage we have, we started from in

24    the front of -- from the -- of the front from white house and Feros

25    building.  They started to recording the events in the front of the Feros

 1    building and white house.

 2       Q.   Could we please look at an aerial shot of the Dutch base which is

 3    P0153 -- 523?  While we are waiting for the shot, I just wanted to tell

 4    you, Mr. Blaszczyk, that this is one of the aerial shots dated the 13th of

 5    July, around 2.00 p.m.  According to what you know, does that tally to --

 6    with the time at which such photographs -- those photographs were

 7    approximately taken?

 8            For the transcript I wanted to repeat that this is P01523.

 9            While we are waiting for the photograph, Mr. Blaszczyk, my

10    question was:  Since it says in the transcript that some time of taking

11    the photographs was mentioned, the 13th of July, around 2.00 p.m., does

12    that correspond to the time when Mr. Pirocanac's footage was made and you

13    referred to it yesterday regarding Potocari?

14       A.   Yes.  If we see the footage of Mr. Petrovic, we can see, I think,

15    that the first time code is about 1500 hours, taken on the 13th of July

16    1995.

17       Q.   Am I correct if I say that when looking at the photograph before

18    us, that that part of the road between the white house and the blue

19    factory, such as you indicated, was full of vehicles, buses, trucks,

20    civilians, and UN vehicles?

21       A.   Yes, you are correct.

22       Q.   The car in which Borovcanin and Pirocanac came, would it be

23    logical that it be left in front of the Dutch base and that they continue

24    on foot from the blue factory to the white building -- from the white

25    house to the blue factory, especially keeping in mind everything that was

 1    recorded on that day in Potocari?

 2       A.   It is possible.

 3       Q.   Can we agree, then, that at this moment, you cannot tell us

 4    precisely where the car had been stopped and what part the cameraman went

 5    on foot to cover the distance between the white house and the blue

 6    factory?

 7       A.   You are right.  I cannot tell the precisely the place where they

 8    parked the car.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at another photograph from the set before

10    you.  It is P02986.  Page 12, photographs B and D.  You'll see it on the

11    screen and you also have it in front of you.  It is your set, page 12,

12    photographs B and D.  I suppose you have the photographs in front of you.

13    Am I correct in saying that in that entire area in Potocari, there were

14    back-packs, bags, items, clothing left, and maybe the most of it was where

15    the armed personnel carriers of the Dutch Battalion were as can be seen

16    from the photograph D.  By analysing the footage and the photographs,

17    would one be able to confirm that?

18       A.   We can see some rubbish, some box over there, yes.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at a short excerpt from the footage that

20    we also saw yesterday.  It is V 0006747.  Prosecution Exhibit P02054.  The

21    time is 6.56 to 7.02.  I believe that should be approximately the time

22    reference.  We'll wait for the excerpt to be shown.  While waiting, I just

23    wanted to say that that excerpt is where we can see the blue factory, the

24    truck, the tractor and Mr. Borovcanin, Kingori, and my questions will have

25    to do with that.

 1                          [Videotape played]

 2            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop there.  Thank you.

 3       Q.   Will you agree with me that on this still we can see a red tractor

 4    towing a white water tank with the letters UN?

 5       A.   Yes.  I agree.

 6       Q.   Will you agree with me that the discussion among those present is

 7    taking place in front of the tractor and the tank with the UN letters?

 8       A.   Yes, it's visible.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  I will have some additional questions regarding this

10    topic for some other witnesses.

11            On the same footage, and the same exhibit, could we please go to

12    13.40 to 13.50?  That part of the footage is something we saw yesterday,

13    Mr. Blaszczyk, as well.  The APCs and some music in the background.

14            I wanted to remind you yesterday at page 18633, pages 11 through

15    to 15, said that you believe that the music that can be heard was actually

16    playing in the vehicle where Zoran Petrovic was.  Let us all have another

17    look at that.

18                          [Videotape played]

19            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20       Q.   I believe the time is right.  It is indeed 13.40 to 13.50 on the

21    footage.  What do you base your conclusion on, mentioned yesterday when

22    you said that you believed that the music that can be heard was played in

23    the vehicle where Zoran Petrovic was?

24       A.   I believe that Zoran Petrovic together with other person that

25    followed this armed vehicles and they parked these armed vehicles before,

 1    and he started to recording -- to record these armed vehicles when they

 2    were shooting and he was standing next to his car when he -- which he used

 3    to follow these vehicles.  And the only explanation for me that it could

 4    be hear music from this car because it's -- this is some distance from

 5    these armed vehicles and the shooting would be quite dangerous to stay

 6    there.

 7       Q.   Would you today exclude the possibility that the music in the

 8    background was actually edited on to the footage before it was released

 9    for TV broadcast?

10       A.   Of course I cannot exclude such situation.

11       Q.   Thank you.  Since we still have the armoured vehicles in front of

12    us, I wanted to ask you about what you could conclude based on the footage

13    referred to.  Would these armoured vehicles be Pragas with anti-aircraft

14    or anti-tank cannons, guns?

15       A.   Yeah, it seems that they are Pragas.

16       Q.   Is that the reason for which, on the interactive CD we saw

17    yesterday, you termed this armoured vehicles Praga or was that because of

18    something else?

19       A.   I think the first vehicle is a Praga.  The second one is also the

20    armed vehicle used by the forces, and the Praga is the first one.  Sorry,

21    could you repeat your question?

22       Q.   My question is this:  Based on what you've just told us, on the

23    interactive CD we saw yesterday during your testimony, at the bottom,

24    well, it says that it is a Praga, that the armoured vehicle is a Praga.

25       A.   I don't think that I put any marks in this interactive

 1    presentation.

 2       Q.   I will not go back to it unless necessary but it is 502987, and it

 3    says, "Praga" on that photograph.  Do you remember that or do you think

 4    that I'm stating this incorrectly?

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The exhibit is P02987.

 6            THE WITNESS:  I would like to see this footage first.

 7            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   I would kindly ask you for your assistance, then, so that we can

 9    see that part together.  The CD is P02987.  Those photographs are titled,

10    "Praga 1" and "Praga 2."  Could you please find that so that we have a

11    look at it together?

12       A.   Yes.  You're right.  I marked this place as Praga 1 and Praga

13    jedan [phoen] but I referred to the location rather than the vehicles.

14       Q.   Therefore, we can agree that this was Pervani village and that on

15    the interactive CD, you marked the two photographs as Praga 1 and Praga 2;

16    is that correct?

17       A.   It's correct.

18       Q.   I wanted to ask you this since it may be of importance when

19    discussing who could have had such vehicles in their possession.  Is it

20    within your knowledge and please tell us if it is not, whether this indeed

21    is a Praga or maybe it is a Pat or an anti-aircraft gun?

22       A.   I believe the first vehicle seen on the picture now, I don't know,

23    this is a Pat vehicle and the second one is a Praga.

24       Q.   For the record, when you say that one vehicle is a Pat, do you

25    mean the one further away from us or closer to us?

 1       A.   Closer to us, the one closer to us.

 2       Q.   And the more distant vehicle, you believe is a Praga, is that your

 3    answer?

 4       A.   I believe -- I believe so.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Let us have a look at P01562.  While waiting for it,

 6    Mr. Blaszczyk, I wanted to tell you that it is one of the shots of the

 7    Kravica warehouse, an aerial shot, taken on the 13th of July, as marked on

 8    the photograph, the date is the 13th of July 1995, around 2.00 p.m.  Can

 9    you see the photograph in front of you?

10       A.   Yes, I can see.

11       Q.   The bus closer to the building and closer to the western entrance

12    of it, and that is something you referred to yesterday, can you confirm to

13    me that it is in the exact spot as you explained yesterday based on the

14    footage excerpt taken by Zoran Petrovic, Pirocanac?  And please bear in

15    mind also what you had on the topic during the interactive presentation.

16       A.   I think this is not correct.  No, this bus is not located in

17    exactly the same place which was shown by me yesterday during the

18    presentation.

19       Q.   Is it fair to say - and I'm not setting a trap or anything, I'm

20    just trying to get an answer from you - is it fair to say that the bus on

21    the shot of Zoran Petrovic was closer to the western entrance as described

22    to you or, rather, closer to the right-hand side of the photograph and of

23    the warehouse, therefore?

24       A.   Yes, it was closer to the western side of the white -- of the

25    warehouse.

 1       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us approximately how many metres that is?

 2       A.   I think about 30 metres, 30 metres, 30, 40 metres.

 3       Q.   30 to 40 metres.  To the west, compared to the current position of

 4    the bus?

 5       A.   Yes, you are right, about even less but for sure few metres, more

 6    than 20.

 7       Q.   Can we also agree that on the footage referred to yesterday, and

 8    analysed by you, made by Zoran Petrovic, there is no evidence or trace of

 9    two buses being there at the time when the footage was taken or there was

10    only one bus there?

11       A.   On this footage it's visible only one bus.

12       Q.   Comparing this photograph with Zoran Petrovic's footage, can we

13    conclude that within an interval, both buses moved, the result of which

14    was that one was gone and the other bus or some other bus which arrived in

15    the meantime was moved some 20 metres to the west?

16       A.   Is possible, is possible.

17       Q.   Having in mind that you said yesterday that you were at the

18    location at least 50 times, perhaps you can use this photograph to tell me

19    something, if not we can use another one.  In any case, will you agree

20    with me that between the entrance to the warehouse and the western gate,

21    the distance between the two can be covered in the following way:  From

22    the road, from the direction of Konjevic Polje, one can turn to the right

23    on a side road, cover the distance of some 30 to 40 metres and then turn

24    right again to enter the warehouse compound?

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

 1            MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry, no objection but I'm just not -- what is

 2    exactly referred to by entrance to the warehouse?  It's not -- it may be

 3    just me but it's not completely clear to me.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?

 5            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Perhaps it

 6    would be more practical to look at another Prosecution Exhibit.  Perhaps

 7    we can put it on the ELMO.  I believe it would be much clearer from it.

 8    We can also provide another copy to the Prosecutor so that they can verify

 9    that indeed it is their exhibit.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Is it in e-court or not?

11            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  It is in

12    e-court.  However, I only have the ERN number at this moment.  I don't

13    have the exhibit number.  That is why I asked for it to be done this way.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  If you tell us the ERN number, I think we can easily

15    trace it, Mr. Stojanovic.

16            THE WITNESS:  02683858 [sic], I believe.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  I can't see anything as yet.  I can see the picture

18    but I can't see the number.  02683858, he said, yeah.

19            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20            THE WITNESS:  [Microphone not activated] You're right, you have to

21    turn to the right, you have to pass about 30 metres, turn right again, and

22    you can reach the eastern part of the warehouse.

23            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a

24    good time for a break in order to reorganise our cross-examination.  We

25    will provide exhibit number for this photograph after the break and I will

 1    have a few questions left and then conclude with my cross-examination.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.  And also consider

 3    this during the break, because on page 24, line 23, you had referred --

 4    and this is what prompted Mr. Nicholls to intervene -- you had referred to

 5    the possible distance between the entrance to the warehouse and the

 6    western gate.  And now the witness is speaking of an eastern part of the

 7    warehouse.  So I think we need better bearings because that -- the way you

 8    have described it and he has answered, I find it confusing.  If necessary,

 9    please, Mr. Blaszczyk, be prepared to mark the photo if we have located it

10    on e-court.  You mark it for us so that we can understand better.  Thank

11    you.

12            We'll have a 25-minute break.

13                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Blaszczyk, shall we

16    start with the point I raised before the break?  We will mark exactly what

17    you intended when you put the question to the witness and what he meant

18    when he answered you so that we can see clear what distance he's talking

19    about, or you both are talking about.

20            Mr. Blaszczyk, I'll read out to you -- you said, you are right,

21    you have to turn to the right, pass 30 metres and turn right again and you

22    can reach the eastern part of the warehouse.  And we are talking as

23    starting from the entrance, I take it, Mr. Stojanovic; is that correct?

24            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  In order to be

25    practical, we agreed that we would now take the pen and indicate the route

 1    toward the -- that particular side of the warehouse, to make it clearer.

 2       Q.   Mr. Blaszczyk, I believe that the way I put the question we

 3    understood each other correctly.  If we go, take the road in the direction

 4    of Konjevic Polje and we turn toward the Kravica warehouse where the

 5    vehicles we referred to were, can you please indicate the direction of

 6    movement with arrows?

 7       A.   [Marks]

 8       Q.   Thank you.  So that would be the movement from the direction of

 9    Bratunac toward the entrance into the Kravica warehouse; is that right?

10       A.   Yes, that's right.  From direction of Bratunac towards Konjevic

11    Polje.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

13            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   Very well.  I believe that now -- or let me ask you now to take

15    the blue pen, to mark the route you would take from the direction of

16    Konjevic Polje toward the Kravica warehouse.

17       A.   I think this is the same route, we have to get the same road.

18            [Marks]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, okay, now, at the beginning of the first arrow

20    you drew, could you write, "K" for Konjevic and "P" for Polje, please?

21    No, the blue arrow, that is coming from which direction, from Konjevic

22    Polje or from Bratunac.

23            THE WITNESS:  The blue arrow is coming from direction of Konjevic

24    Polje.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's what I asked to you write, Konjevic Polje,

 1    here.  Okay.  And next to the other arrow, which is coming from Bratunac

 2    direction, could you put a B, please?

 3            THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 5            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance.  For the record let

 7    us state that this is the P1563 exhibit that we are using and can I ask

 8    Mr. Blaszczyk to place today's date, the 4th of December, at the bottom of

 9    the page together with your signature?

10       A.   [Marks]

11       Q.   And we can put this photograph away now.  Thank you very much.

12    Thank you.  Let us look at another exhibit now, Prosecution Exhibit

13    P02103, page 107 of the book used during the presentation by Witness

14    Jean-Rene Ruez.  There, we will also see a photograph of the Kravica

15    warehouse.

16            Mr. Blaszczyk, this is my question while we are waiting for the

17    picture.  In view of the fact that you stated yesterday that you were

18    present in front of the Kravica warehouse on several occasions, to the

19    best of your recollection and based on what you were able to conclude by

20    analysing the footage of Mr. Pirocanac and by analysing this photograph

21    which was taken back in 1996, could you conclude that the

22    Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road and the yard of the Kravica warehouse were

23    separated from each other by a wire fence running in front of the

24    warehouse in relation to the road?

25       A.   Yeah.  We can see the wire fence in front of the Kravica

 1    warehouse.

 2       Q.   Does this fence stand there today?

 3       A.   I think, if today, I believe so, yes, I believe.  It looks not the

 4    same but I think it's a little bit higher.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  I will have no further questions on this subject.

 6            In several footage clips we analysed yesterday, you saw and you

 7    indicated yourself that the date and the time appeared in the corners of

 8    the screen when referring to the footage by Mr. Petrovic/Pirocanac.  Do

 9    you recall that?

10       A.   Yes, I do.

11       Q.   Based on your knowledge, could you state whether the time

12    indicated on the footage corresponded to the time at which in fact the

13    footage was made or were there possible discrepancies in terms of shorter

14    intervals of time, to your knowledge?

15       A.   I cannot confirm and I cannot deny it.  According to Mr. Petrovic,

16    he had no experience to operate with this video camera, he couldn't know

17    how to put the proper time on the video camera.  But I believe this is the

18    proper time because -- at least the date.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Can we go back once more to the aerial photograph of

20    Potocari which is P1517?  That's the photograph we used at the start of

21    cross-examination today.  Can you take the pen again and place a circle on

22    the DutchBat base, as you will see it on the picture?

23            Before we look at this photograph, can we go back to P2478?  That

24    was the picture we used first, 2478, P2478.  That's the picture we used at

25    the start of examination today, in fact.

 1            That's the photograph, Mr. Blaszczyk, we had at the start, where

 2    you indicated the position of the white house and the blue factory.  I'd

 3    like you to mark the entire compound of the DutchBat base on that

 4    photograph.  That's precisely the photograph.  Thank you.

 5            Can I kindly ask you to mark the UN base compound?

 6       A.   [Marks]

 7       Q.   Thank you.  This is what I want to ask you in relation to the

 8    photograph:  The facility or the building in front of the building you

 9    called the white house, what is it?  Or what was it in July of 1995?  What

10    was its purpose?

11       A.   I don't know.  This is the former Feros company building, the

12    factory and building in front of the road leading from Bratunac to

13    Srebrenica.

14       Q.   Was it at any point in time in July of 1995 used for the purposes

15    of the DutchBat?

16       A.   I don't know.

17       Q.   According to what you were able to see while analysing the

18    yesterday's footage, were you aware of the fact that there were members of

19    the DutchBat there and the refugees from Srebrenica, the population that

20    fled Srebrenica on the 12th and the 13th of July 1995?

21       A.   Analysing my picture from the road book, it's difficult to say

22    that they were the members of UN DutchBat inside and refugees from

23    Srebrenica.  On the pictures we see only the group of the people walking

24    on the right and on the left side of the road towards Bratunac.

25       Q.   Would you agree with me that you do not rule out the possibility

 1    that the population that fled Srebrenica was indeed present in that part

 2    of the industrial zone of Potocari in those buildings?

 3       A.   I cannot exclude that -- such possibility but I don't remember on

 4    the statement of the witness who was located in this place.

 5       Q.   Do you know at all that the group of fleeing people were

 6    accommodated in that part of the Potocari industrial zone that was held by

 7    the DutchBat?

 8       A.   I know that the group of the people were also accommodated in

 9    DutchBat base in Potocari, and because there were no more place for the

10    people, from the refugee from Srebrenica, they were also located in bus

11    compound, Zinc company and Energoinvest company buildings.

12       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk.  Can you place today's date and your

13    signature on this photograph?  And that would conclude my

14    cross-examination.

15       A.   [Marks]

16            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  So thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.  Ms. Fauveau, do you

18    have a cross-examination?  You had asked for ten minutes.

19            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no questions.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Merci.  The Gvero Defence team have no

21    cross-examination.  Mr. Sarapa, do you have any questions for the witness?

22            MR. SARAPA: [In English] No, we don't have any questions.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  I don't think there is a re-examination,

24    Mr. Nicholls, is there?

25            MR. NICHOLLS:  Extremely brief, I think, Your Honour.

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 2                          Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

 3       Q.   Mr. Blaszczyk, you were asked by Mr. Stojanovic about the

 4    conclusion you made, you spoke about of the music coming from the car

 5    during the portion of the video where we see fire directed into the hills.

 6    Do you remember that?

 7       A.   Yes, I remember.

 8       Q.   Okay.  Do you recall whether you asked during the interview of

 9    Zoran Petrovic in 2006, do you remember if you asked him about that music?

10       A.   For sure we asked him about this music but I don't remember right

11    now.

12       Q.   Okay.  Do you remember what his answer was?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Would it help you remember if I showed you the statement?

15       A.   Yes, please.

16            MR. LAZAREVIC:  I believe this is highly improper.

17            MR. NICHOLLS:  No, it's not.  I'm refreshing his recollection.

18    The interview -- I'll let my friend finish.  Well, if he's finished, it's

19    simply this, Your Honour:  The basis of his conclusion was put into

20    question.  This was a topic that was gone over with the witness in the

21    interview, in April -- February and April 2006 and the question was asked,

22    he remembers asking the question.  I think I'm just trying to refresh his

23    recollection and I think it's completely a normal procedure to refresh on

24    this topic.  It was over a year ago.

25            MR. LAZAREVIC:  If I may very briefly reply.  This is the next

 1    witness.  We can ask him this.

 2            MR. NICHOLLS:  The issue is not --

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

 4                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 5            MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, if I may, the issue is not to get in

 6    this vital piece of information of where the music is coming from.  It's

 7    because there was a challenge to his -- to Mr. Blaszczyk's basis for

 8    saying where the music was coming from and saying, well, you haven't been

 9    able to tell us how you concluded that.  It's --

10                          [Trial Chamber confers]

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  [Microphone not activated] We believe that this

12    issue could probably be dealt with much better by Mr. Petrovic instead of

13    the witness.  However, since the witness has given us his opinion and he's

14    also been asked on cross-examination on how he formed this opinion, we

15    think you have a right to pursue the matter.  So go ahead.

16            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

17       Q.   I'm referring to page 127 of the interview, lines 24 to 27,

18    Mr. Blaszczyk, I'll just read it out since it's not in e-court.  In this

19    portion of the video you asked the question of Mr. Petrovic, is that music

20    coming from your car?  And he answered:  From the car because the car is

21    there, yeah, I was next to the car.

22            Does that help you remember how you came to your conclusion about

23    the music?

24       A.   Yes.  You read me back the transcript from this interview.  I

25    asked this question and I got answer.

 1       Q.   Thank you.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  All right.

 3            That concludes your testimony on this chapter.  However, as you

 4    may have heard earlier on, I think you were already present in the

 5    courtroom, maybe, maybe not, we are going to proceed now with

 6    Mr. Ostojic's continuation of his cross-examination on the subject matter

 7    that you testified upon a couple of weeks ago.

 8            THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Then I understand you are going to be called again

10    later on to testify again; is that correct, Mr. Nicholls?  Or -- according

11    to the information that we have, you're going to summon him again to

12    testify on the duty officer's notebook.

13            MR. NICHOLLS:  This is all subject, Your Honours, to our

14    discussions with the Defence and, hopefully, possibly working out some

15    kind of agreement or stipulation on these exhibits.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Thank you.  So let's see how it

17    works out, Mr. Blaszczyk, and you may need to come back.

18            Mr. Ostojic.

19            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

21       Q.   Sir, we're now going to focus our discussion back to the Drina

22    Corps collection that you seized, I think, in 2004, if you don't mind.

23    Sir, in our last discussion before an objection was raised by my learned

24    friend, I was simply inquiring of you as to who was personally supervising

25    the transfer of the Drina Corps collection to Mali Zvornik?

 1       A.   The order was given by Colonel General Andric at that time but

 2    according to the witness Nebojsa Vukicevic, it was supervised -- the

 3    transport was from Zvornik to Mali Zvornik, (redacted)

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10       Q.   Okay.  Tell me this:  Who -- and you found this information when,

11    sir, recently or did you find the information since you seized the

12    documents in 2004?

13       A.   You mean the information about --

14       Q.   As to who is personally supervising the transfer of the Drina

15    Corps collection to Mali Zvornik?

16       A.   This information by OTP, we received a statement of

17    Nebojsa Vukicevic in, I believe, in between May and October 2004, before

18    the collection was seized in Banja Luka.

19       Q.   Did you also, sir, remember getting a letter from Republika Srpska

20    addressed to the ICTY in March of 2005 also identifying that the transfer

21    of the documents were under the direct command of Lieutenant-Colonel

22    Dragan Obrenovic?

23       A.   It's possible that it was such letter but I would like to see this

24    letter to confirm.

25       Q.   Sure.  I'll be happy to give it to you.

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  Your Honour, it's a letter that was provided to us

 2    by the Office of the Prosecutor dated the 3rd of March 2005, and I have a

 3    hard copy for the witness signed by Mr. Jovan Spajic.  With the Court's

 4    permission if the usher can hand that to -- if I may, Your Honours, just

 5    to speed it up, direct his attention to page 2 and I put a little asterisk

 6    or an arrow in the significant portion for this question, but he's welcome

 7    to look at the document in its entirety.

 8            THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:

10       Q.   So let me ask you this, sir:  Also not only personally supervising

11    the transfer of the Drina Corps documents, is it true that in fact Dragan

12    Obrenovic was the person who had the keys to the padlocks that contained

13    those documents in Mali Zvornik, correct?

14       A.   Yes.  Dragan Obrenovic had a key from this room.

15       Q.   Well, you being the lead investigator did you come to learn that

16    anyone else had a key during that time period of approximately one year

17    that those documents were at Mali Zvornik other than Dragan Obrenovic?

18       A.   Also, I should refer to the statement and testimony of protected

19    witness.

20       Q.   Okay.  And why don't we go quickly with the Court's permission

21    into private session so that I can just make sure we are talking about the

22    same witness, Your Honour, to get the name?

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's go into private session, please.

24                          [Private session]

25    (redacted)

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7                          [Open session]

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10       Q.   Sir, being the lead investigator on this team and involved

11    Srebrenica did you obtain from any other individual or source that other

12    than this individual that you said testified in private session, did

13    anyone rebut or contradict Mr. Vukicevic's statement that Dragan Obrenovic

14    is the only person who had the keys to the two padlocks to the storage?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Okay.  Did you learn from any witnesses that you interviewed

17    whether or not any other individual maintained any such sets of keys?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Okay.  Are you -- do you know, sir, as I'm sure you do, and isn't

20    it correct that it was Dragan Obrenovic who was responsible for the

21    storage of the Drina Corps collection while it was at Mali Zvornik?

22       A.   Yeah, again we should refer to those two statements, statement of

23    Nebojsa Vukicevic and protected witness.

24       Q.   Again I'll ask you then as the lead investigator in the Srebrenica

25    case, did you obtain information from any other witnesses or documents

 1    which would contradict what Mr. Vukicevic said?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Let me ask you this, if I may, sir, please?

 4       A.   If you are referring to Mali Zvornik location?

 5       Q.   Now, I am.  Up until March of 1999, correct?

 6       A.   Yeah.

 7       Q.   Are you familiar with the evidence that in March of 1999, the

 8    warehouse or the storage area where the Drina Corps collection was held

 9    was broken into?

10       A.   Yeah, this is also mentioned in the Nebojsa Vukicevic's statement.

11       Q.   Well, share with me this:  As the lead investigator in the

12    Srebrenica case, what did you do to either confirm or to determine who

13    broke into the storage facility which contained these documents?

14       A.   Nothing, me personally.

15       Q.   What about anyone on your staff?

16       A.   I have no information about that.

17       Q.   What about anyone who preceded you in your position or in your

18    staff before you arrived at the ICTY?

19            THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down a little bit, Mr. Ostojic,

20    please.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  And he told you that he hasn't got any

22    information about it which means neither before nor during nor after.

23            MR. OSTOJIC:

24       Q.   Sir, do you know if an index was made of the Drina Corps

25    collection before the documents were moved to Mali Zvornik?

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Do you know where the location of the Drina Corps collection was

 3    after they were removed from Mali Zvornik in March of 1999?

 4       A.   The collection ended up in Gornji Milanovac.  We have only this

 5    information.  Whether it was transferred from Mali Zvornik to Milanovac

 6    directly or were kept in any other places, we don't know.  We cannot

 7    exclude it.

 8       Q.   Okay.  And do you know for what period of time that you would have

 9    a gap in this chain of custody, if you will, for the Drina Corps

10    collection before you identified that they were kept at Mali -- in

11    Milanovac?

12       A.   We have no information, in fact, where the collection was kept

13    between March, at least March 1999 and December 2004.

14       Q.   Now it's my understanding, sir, that Dragan Obrenovic tendered to

15    the Prosecution documents on two separate occasions in 2003, correct?

16       A.   Yes.  This is correct.

17       Q.   Were any of the documents that he provided to the Office of the

18    Prosecution part of the Drina Corps collection?

19       A.   I don't remember right now but I think that most of these

20    documents were part of the Drina Corps collection, according to the

21    description of the witness.

22       Q.   Now, let me ask you this question, sir:  With respect to --

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Ostojic.  Mr. Nicholls and

24    Mr. McCloskey, if my memory is not failing me, let's go into private

25    session, please.

 1                          [Private session]

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20                          [Open session]

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead, Mr. Ostojic, please proceed with your

22    questions.

23            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24       Q.   Sir, just so we have a clear record, Mr. Obrenovic tendered

25    documents to the Prosecution both in June of 2003 and September 2003,

 1    correct?

 2       A.   Yes, this is correct.

 3       Q.   And it's your testimony that the documents that he provided to the

 4    OTP were in part that from the Drina Corps collection as we've come to

 5    identify them, correct?

 6       A.   Yes, this is correct.

 7       Q.   I would like to ask you this question, sir.  If could you tell me

 8    who is responsible to analyse the Drina Corps collection for purposes of

 9    compliance with Rule 68?

10       A.   Everybody in team.

11       Q.   Does that include yourself, obviously, sir?

12       A.   Include myself as well.

13       Q.   Can you tell me what your understanding is of Rule 68?

14       A.   It's my understanding is to find all information or the facts,

15    mitigating facts and all information we can say that the accused can be

16    innocent.

17       Q.   What about with exculpatory facts, sir, or do you just look at

18    mitigating facts?

19       A.   And also all the facts we can say that Prosecution evidence are

20    not reliable.

21       Q.   Do you create an index with the information that you provide to

22    the Prosecutor specifically that you undertook in connection with

23    analysing the Drina Corps collection to be in compliance with Rule 68?

24       A.   No, I didn't.

25       Q.   How do you communicate that to the Prosecutor?

 1       A.   We inform our lawyers from our team.

 2       Q.   And that's what I assume but do you do it orally or do you do it

 3    in writing, by memo form, e-mail?

 4       A.   Mostly by e-mail or just giving the copy of the documents to them

 5    personally.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Blaszczyk, please slow down a

 7    little bit.  Short pause between question and answer so that the

 8    interpreters' life doesn't become more difficult than it already is.

 9            THE WITNESS:  I apologise, Your Honour.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:

11       Q.   Sir, am I correct that this same type of analysis and

12    responsibility that you undertook with the Drina Corps collection you and

13    everyone at the OTP would undertake that obligation for all other

14    collections and documents, correct?

15       A.   Yes, correct.

16       Q.   Now, do you still maintain records of your analysis with respect

17    to the Drina Corps collection and that which may be exculpatory or, as you

18    say, mitigating pursuant to Rule 68?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Did do you a search recently to determine if you maintained those

21    documents?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   As you sit here, sir, did you undertake this specific analysis

24    with respect to the Drina Corps collection?

25       A.   No.

 1       Q.   Well, why not, if you're the lead investigator in the Srebrenica

 2    case?

 3       A.   I was busy with another task.

 4       Q.   Now, earlier you testified that everyone was involved in this

 5    responsibility and analysis of Rule 68 in connection with the Drina Corps

 6    collection.  Can you identify for me which investigators under your

 7    command, sir, were responsible to do that?

 8       A.   Everybody is obligate to identify all documents in regards to Rule

 9    68, and each investigators which can see such document should inform our

10    lawyers about it.

11       Q.   Well, and I heard that now for the second time and thank you for

12    that, but everybody includes you and yet you didn't do it, correct?

13       A.   I don't remember [indiscernible] document which I identified as

14    Rule 68.

15       Q.   Let me ask about, if I may, your obligations as a professional

16    investigator and a member of the Office of the Prosecution.  Do you agree

17    with me that you have a professional duty when a witness misstates

18    something and you have evidence that he's wrong on his recollection, that

19    you should correct him on his recollection?

20       A.   I should analyse this information, yes.

21       Q.   Do you also agree with me that it's not only a professional

22    obligation but it's also an ethical obligation?

23       A.   Yes, of course.

24       Q.   And not only professional and ethical but it's a legal obligation,

25    is it not, sir?

 1       A.   Yeah, to analyse the possible Rule 68, yeah, this is legal

 2    obligation.

 3       Q.   Well, you're switching -- my question wasn't limited just to Rule

 4    68, sir, I'm asking you specifically given than you've informed us that

 5    you've interviewed witnesses (redacted), is it your

 6    professional, ethical and legal obligation, if the witness makes a

 7    statement --

 8                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

11       Q.   If I could just restate the question, Your Honour, because I'm not

12    sure if the witness, with all due respect, fully understood.  Sir I'm

13    moving away from Rule 68 and the obligations that we discussed previously.

14    I'm asking you do you have a professional, ethical and legal obligation

15    when you interview a witness and if you know that the witness has

16    misspoken or did not recall properly, to inform the witness that in fact

17    he's incorrect by showing him documentation or other testimony to refresh

18    his recollection on that?

19       A.   If you are referring to this particular witness we spoken about, I

20    think he was -- he was confronted with the statement which stated totally

21    different things when he stated.

22       Q.   I'm, sir, talking generically here for the moment.  I'm saying

23    with any witness.  Isn't it true that you have a professional, ethical and

24    legal obligation if a witness, for example, says, that I was in Potocari

25    on this date but you have evidence that he was, for example, in Pale on

 1    that given date and at that given time, is it not your professional,

 2    ethical and legal obligation to share with him that documentation so that

 3    he could refresh his recollection?

 4       A.   This is my way.  I would say to the witness that I have another

 5    information but I'm not going to disclose the -- it's not my habit to

 6    disclose that to the witness the source of this information.

 7       Q.   And is that also the policy of the investigators who work under

 8    you, sir?

 9       A.   It depends of the -- of the way how they conducting the interview

10    or they conducting the investigation.

11       Q.   And --

12       A.   But -- but, as you know, the -- we investigators are coming from

13    different countries and they have different experience and different way

14    to do their investigation.

15       Q.   And I'm more interested in how you do your investigation, sir, in

16    particular if you failed to at least tell the witness that you have

17    information that would either refresh his recollection or contradict that

18    which he's sharing with you, what would that constitute in your mind, if

19    not a breach of your professional, ethical and legal duties?

20       A.   I can assure you that I have clear conscience.

21       Q.   And, sir, I'm not testing your conscience here; I'm asking you if

22    there was a breach of that policy that you enunciated here to us that you

23    wouldn't show him the document but that, in fact, you would share with him

24    the information would that be --

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, stop.  Please proceed to your next

 1    question.  We've had enough of this.  I think he's already excluded the

 2    possibility that you're putting to him.

 3            MR. NICHOLLS:  I'll put this down as a marker, Judge.  We had a

 4    clear deal with Mr. Meek that the cross-examination would not exceed 30

 5    minutes.  That was the agreement why we agreed to defer this, and I'm not

 6    making a huge fuss about it but now we are well over 30 minutes.  This

 7    exactly what we wanted to avoid was a long, burbling fishing expedition

 8    cross being deferred until Mr. Ostojic got back.  That's why we agreed to

 9    the half hour.

10                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  In my estimate, you haven't been 30 minutes as yet

12    but --

13            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  -- anyways, I'm going to check and you continue in

15    the meantime.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  And I'll try not to --

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Please proceed to your next question.

18            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll try not to burble or garble anything for the

19    Prosecution but I'd like to ask this witness concretely.

20       Q.   Did you, sir, ever interview Mr. Ljubisa Beara, my client's

21    driver?

22       A.   Yes, I met him.

23       Q.   Did you interview him or just meet him?

24       A.   I think I met him.  I prepare the information report but because

25    at that time, as far I remember, there was no time and even was very

 1    difficult to interview him because I met him at his house, in -- at his

 2    home in Han Pijesak.  And he was called for interview again to Sarajevo,

 3    as far as I remember.

 4       Q.   Okay.  And based on your recollection, sir, do you remember that

 5    you did not at any time share with Mr. -- or Mr. Beara's driver any

 6    documents like a vehicle log?

 7       A.   During our meeting?

 8       Q.   Correct.

 9       A.   During our meeting in Han Pijesak?

10       Q.   Yes, sir.

11       A.   I don't remember showing him any documents at that stage, but I

12    informed him that we call him for the official interview in Sarajevo.

13       Q.   Well, do you remember, sir, in Sarajevo, if you showed him any

14    documents?

15       A.   But I am pretty sure that interview in Sarajevo was conducted by

16    my colleague but I cannot refer right now to the transcript of this

17    interview but I'm pretty sure that I wasn't present during this interview.

18       Q.   Well, other than failing to show that driver vehicle logs from the

19    Main Staff, do you have a recollection whether or not you showed him any

20    statements for other witnesses which would help us get to the truth as to

21    where Milos Tomovic and Mr. Beara were on certain given points?  Do you

22    remember sharing with him any information from other witnesses, sir?

23       A.   I don't -- this meeting with Mr. Tomovic, as far as I could

24    remember his name, lasted not too long and as I told you there were not

25    circumstances to provide, to conduct any interview with this witness, and

 1    I don't believe that I share any information with this witness.

 2       Q.   Well, you didn't, but why was it short, sir, and why were you not

 3    prepared?  Did it just be a happenstance that you ran into him or did you

 4    call him in advance and schedule a meeting with him days, if not weeks,

 5    prior to you coming to his home to interview him?

 6       A.   The answer is very simple, we didn't know.  As far as I remember,

 7    we didn't know where the witness lives and where he's located.  I just

 8    took the chance that I was driving from Sarajevo to another place, maybe

 9    to Zvornik or Bratunac.  I don't remember right now where exactly but I

10    stopped in Han Pijesak and I phoned this witness.

11       Q.   Well, at any time since those two interviews in Han Pijesak, the

12    first one, and Sarajevo, the second one, did you get in contact with

13    Mr. Beara's driver?

14       A.   Not personally.  It's possible that I called him but I don't

15    remember right now.  I called him to show up for this interview in

16    Sarajevo.

17       Q.   How about after the interview in Sarajevo is really what I'm

18    getting at, sir?

19       A.   No.  After the interview in Sarajevo, I never was in touch with

20    him.

21       Q.   Okay.  And do you think, sir, by failing to refresh a witness's

22    recollection such as Mr. Tomovic with either the vehicle log documents or

23    other documents or statements from other witnesses, that it would be a

24    breach or a violation of your professional, ethical and legal duties as

25    the lead investigator in the Srebrenica case?

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Mr. Ostojic, there was the first

 2    occasion when the witness confirmed that he met with this person at his

 3    residence in Han Pijesak.  And if I have understood the witness correctly,

 4    there was no proper interview then.  It was just a first meeting, mostly

 5    intended to confirm that he had been found and that there will be a second

 6    interview later on, date of which will be communicated to him.  Second

 7    instance was the Sarajevo interview at which, if I understood the witness

 8    well, he doesn't even recollect being present.  So he cannot confirm or

 9    deny any of the suggestions that you are putting.  So the conclusion,

10    according to me, is in regards to the first instance, you cannot allege a

11    failure to show the gentleman logbook, notebook or whatever it is.  As

12    regards the second instance, you also cannot suggest failure to the

13    witness because he's not in a position to answer you.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  I see the Court's point and thank you.  But, Your

15    Honour, I would like to just clarify that first meeting if I will.  Thank

16    you, Mr. President.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  You can clarify the first meeting without suggesting

18    any undue -- because he's told you that there was no proper -- no proper

19    interview then.

20            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

21       Q.   Is that correct, sir --

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Just one moment.  Mr. Nicholls?

23            MR. NICHOLLS:  I'd also object, Your Honour, that my friend is

24    misstating the facts as he's putting it to the witness.  I think he knows

25    that there is no legal, ethical and professional obligation to show one

 1    witness another witness's statement which he knows that and it's --

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's another matter.  That's another matter and I

 3    wouldn't ask the witness to answer that because he is not -- he is an

 4    investigator and not a lawyer.  Unless you are a lawyer and we don't know

 5    it.

 6            MR. OSTOJIC:  I think we have the witness's testimony on what he

 7    feels his personal, professional obligations as well as ethical

 8    obligations, I just find it hard to believe that the Prosecutor is taking

 9    that view.  But in any event, Your Honour, I have a couple more questions.

10       Q.   Sir, is it true what our honourable Mr. President said that that

11    first meeting was just an introductory meeting and that you didn't ask any

12    questions but just wanted to confirm where the driver of Mr. Beara was?

13       A.   I told him what will be the -- what will be the issue for the

14    proper interview.

15       Q.   You mentioned that you prepared an information report, did you

16    not, based on that contact that you had with Mr. Beara's driver?

17       A.   I should look up this information report.  I don't remember this

18    information report right now.

19       Q.   Well, to the best of your recollection, sir, is it your testimony

20    here under oath that you did not ask any questions of Mr. Tomovic in

21    connection with the events in July of 1995 involving Srebrenica but merely

22    obtained general information as to his telephone number, address, where

23    will he be living in the next few days until you could obtain contact from

24    him, is that accurate?

25       A.   It's possible that I asked him a few questions about the events in

 1    1995, but as I told you, that was not circumstances to conduct an

 2    interview.  It was at his accommodation in the presence of his family.  I

 3    didn't want to discuss these events with him in the front of his family.

 4       Q.   Just so that I understand because I did read the information

 5    report, sir, but based on your recollection when you say a few questions,

 6    how many did do you think you asked him?

 7       A.   I don't know, don't ask me right now.  I would prefer to look at

 8    my notes and information report.

 9       Q.   That's all I have, Mr. President.  Thank you.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.  Is there re-examination,

11    Mr. Nicholls?  I hope not.

12            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Go ahead.

14                          Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  And thank you, Mr. Ostojic for keeping within the

16    30-minute limit.

17            MR. NICHOLLS:

18       Q.   First, very briefly, Mr. Blaszczyk, you were asked about

19    investigators under your command in this team.  Do you command

20    investigators in the OTP?

21       A.   No.  I am not.  As I told you, maybe I didn't express properly but

22    I am the most experienced investigator in this team, I mean Srebrenica

23    team.  This is why I am so-called leading investigator but I am not

24    responsible, I am not supervisor of other investigators.

25       Q.   Okay.  Could we put 2967 up in e-court, please?  While that's

 1    coming up that's the statement of Nebojsa Vukicevic which has been asked

 2    about.  And back when he was first cross-examining you, Mr. Ostojic stated

 3    that the collection according to this statement was in Zvornik for one

 4    year from April 1998 through March of 1999.  And I can make this quick

 5    because I think my friend might agree with me that it doesn't say anything

 6    like that in this statement and we can move on.

 7            MR. OSTOJIC:  We did discuss it, Your Honour, and we clarified it

 8    after he objected on the 22nd of November.

 9            MR. NICHOLLS:

10       Q.   Now, this statement, to continue, it was read out to you, parts of

11    it, about -- if we can scroll down, the keys being given to

12    Dragan Obrenovic, once the -- once the documents were transferred to Mali

13    Zvornik.  What kind of institution were they held in in Mali Zvornik, what

14    sort of place was it?

15       A.   It was the premises of Defence department of Serbia, the military

16    premises of Serbia and Montenegro, sorry.

17       Q.   Okay.  And from your reading of the statement, does the statement

18    say or imply that Mr. Obrenovic, as Mr. Ostojic put it to you, had the

19    sole access and was the only person who could get the documents in a

20    military facility in Serbia?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Thank you.  I want to go now and show you P192.  That's a document

23    Ms. Fauveau asked you about at T 18114 to 16 and let me just check if we

24    still have the original here.  I'll wait for that to come up on e-court.

25    While we are waiting, I'll remind you that you referred to, I think, you

 1    called it a binder of documents that you saw in Zagreb.  Okay, could I

 2    have the assistance of the usher, please?  I'm going to hand you some

 3    original documents.  Please show it to my friend, first, Mr. Ostojic, or

 4    Ms. Fauveau.

 5            Now, can you -- first of all, tell me if you recognise what I've

 6    just handed to you, that packet of paper with a cardboard cover?

 7       A.   Yes, I recognise this small binder.  At that time when I saw this

 8    binder, it was clipped together.

 9       Q.   I was going to ask you about that.  What do you mean by clipped

10    together?  I see that there are holes punched in the cardboard cover and

11    also in the pages.

12       A.   These documents were clipped together and this is the first page,

13    this is cover page of this small binder.

14       Q.   Now, could you turn to what should be the last page in there,

15    04258580?  Do you recognise that document?

16       A.   Yes, I do.

17       Q.   Okay.  When did you first see that document?

18       A.   I am very sure, 100 per cent sure, that I saw this document first

19    time in Zagreb.

20       Q.   And I'll just ask this question although it's quite clear.  When

21    you saw this document in Zagreb, was it -- how did it get to Zagreb?

22       A.   This document arrived to Zagreb together in -- yeah, with other

23    documents from so-called Drina collection from Banja Luka, on 17 December

24    2004.

25       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I'm done with that.

 1            And just can you remind us - if you can read it - what is written

 2    on the cardboard cover of that binder?

 3       A.   It's mean telegrams and the number of the telegrams.

 4       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 5       A.   And they quote the name of Atlanti Dabat [phoen].  That's it.

 6       Q.   All right.  Now, you were asked some questions by my friend

 7    Mr. Ostojic and by Ms. Fauveau about who had access, in fact that was a

 8    huge part of your cross, who had access to the Drina Corps collection

 9    while it was in Mali Zvornik.  And what I'd like to do now is show you

10    some documents and I spoke to my friends about this which we received from

11    the Krstic Defence.  And the first is 2979.  This is a receipt from 19

12    February 2000 to the Office of the Prosecutor, re receipt for disclosure

13    of materials Prosecutor versus General Radislav Krstic and it's signed by

14    senior trial attorney Mark Harmon.  For the moment, could I just ask you

15    to take a look at numbers 4, 20 and 23, these documents we received in

16    February 2000?

17       A.   Could you scroll down, this?

18       Q.   We'll have to go to the next page.  Now I'd like to go to an

19    exhibit which is in evidence, P00927.  And to save time if we look at

20    this, we'll see that it's a Main Staff VRS document number 03/4-1670, 17

21    July 1995, and this is document number 4 on the list of documents received

22    from the Krstic Defence.  We'll need to look at the Serbian originals.

23    And I'll ask you to take a look when you can as well at the stamp and

24    small amount of handwriting on the document, at the bottom.  Now, if

25    possible, if we can keep that up on the screen, I'd like to put on 2982,

 1    the Serbian original, next to it.  While waiting for it to come up, we'll

 2    see that that is also Main Staff RS document 03/4-1670 of 17 July 1995.

 3    And could we go up to the top, please, sorry, of the -- of 2982?

 4            We see that ERN number 04257985, is that a -- well, what

 5    collection does that come from?

 6       A.   According to the ERN number, I see that these documents comes from

 7    Drina Corps collection.

 8       Q.   And we see, can you just look at the numbers handwritten on the

 9    top right-hand corner of both documents, the one we received from the

10    Defence and the one we received from the Drina Corps collection and tell

11    me if they look similar?

12       A.   Yeah, the same number.

13       Q.   All right.  And if we look down at the stamp and the

14    handwriting --

15            MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I believe we have the originals of

16    each of these here in case anybody wants to look at it.  Well, we have the

17    original from the Drina Corps collection, I should say.

18       Q.   If you look at those two stamps, and the handwriting, written in

19    the stamps, the date, do they appear -- does one -- is the one on the left

20    0927, appear to be a photocopy of the original 2982?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   I'd like to now put up, please, 2981 and if possible next to it

23    2982.  This is a Drina Corps command document number 04/156-9 from 10 July

24    1995, and this is number 23 on the list of documents disclosed in Krstic.

25    I'll just wait for those two to come up, please, next to each other.

 1            I think we've got the wrong one on the right.  It should be -- the

 2    ERN should be 04367235.  Yeah, 2980.  Maybe I misspoke.  That was the one

 3    I wanted on the right, sorry.

 4            And here, if we can scroll down towards the bottom of both

 5    documents, and look at the stamp and the handwriting?

 6       A.   It seems that one of these documents is original and other one is

 7    a copy of this document.

 8       Q.   Now can we go up to the top, please?  Again, 2980 is the document

 9    on the right, with the ERN number 04367235.  What collection does that ERN

10    number signify that this document came from?

11       A.   I believe this is Drina Corps collection.

12       Q.   The last two, it's same exercise, if we could have up 2745 on the

13    left and 2983 on the right.  This is another command of the Drina Corps

14    document 03/156-11, 13 July 1995.  Number 20 on the Krstic Defence

15    disclosure receipt.  And when you've looked at those if we could scroll

16    down again to the stamps and the handwriting, compare these two, please.

17    And could we scroll down to the bottom, please, so that we can see the

18    stamp and the signatures?

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we do the same with -- okay.  All right.

20            THE WITNESS:  It seems the same documents, one of them is original

21    and another one is copy.

22            MR. NICHOLLS:

23       Q.   And again, I'm sorry, if we go up -- well, on the right we have

24    the ERN number 04312743.

25       A.   This is a range of Drina Corps collection.

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Sorry, is it 2743?  What we are -- maybe that is the

 2    first page.

 3            MR. NICHOLLS:  43 to 44, you're correct, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 5            MR. NICHOLLS:

 6       Q.   Is that your answer, the same?

 7       A.   Yes, yes, this is a range of Drina Corps collection.

 8       Q.   Now, again, we received these documents in February 2000, the

 9    copies on the left we've been looking at.  Did the OTP know where these

10    Drina Corps documents were at that time or have access to them?

11       A.   I don't know.

12       Q.   Thank you.  I think that's all I have, Your Honour.  I'll just say

13    that my understanding is that these documents received from the Krstic

14    Defence were the result of -- and I can't speak to an official request

15    make to the Republika Srpska for these documents.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

17            Mr. Blaszczyk, we don't have any further questions for you, at

18    least for today, so you're free to go.

19            THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  I wish to thank you for having taken the trouble to

21    come again and I hope we will not disturb you any further.

22                          [The witness withdrew]

23                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm just wondering whether we now have two separate

25    series of documents that you wish to tender, which I suppose is the case.

 1            MR. NICHOLLS:  That's correct.  Miss Stewart has combined them on

 2    one list but has indicated which testimony they are pertinent to and which

 3    testimony they came in with.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then we can do that now.  Because if you

 5    are not prepared for that, I was going to suggest to have the break

 6    straight away during which you would sort it out.

 7            Where is the list?

 8            Have the Defence been provided with a copy?  Not yet.  So I think

 9    it would be appropriate to have the break now so that each Defence team

10    has got time to go through the list, because otherwise, I can't expect

11    anyone to be in a position to decide whether to object or not to object.

12            We'll have the 25-minute break now.  Do you want to explain

13    anything from this -- no, I think it's self explanatory.

14            MR. NICHOLLS:  Just one, Your Honour, perhaps is not completely

15    self-evident.  2985 is the English transcript of the -- what's been

16    referred to as the raw material shot by Zoran Petrovic that we watched in

17    court with the road book testimony.  That transcript is also the one which

18    we saw synced to the video, video V0006747.  If you look at the

19    transcript, the cover sheet explains that the two versions of that video

20    were used to make the transcript because some portions were clear, some

21    unintelligibles could be heard on the BBC copy that could not be heard on

22    the copy we received from Mr. Petrovic and vice versa.  And so where

23    language comes from the BBC as opposed to the raw material we copied from

24    Mr. Petrovic during our interview that is indicated in the transcript so

25    that one can see which video is used for that particular portion of speech

 1    and translation.

 2            And in addition, there is a key to the abbreviations used for

 3    unidentified male, unidentified female, and the main speakers.  Thank you.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.  We'll have a 25-minute

 5    break now and then we'll process these documents, as well as the Defence

 6    ones.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Now, you've had time to go through the

10    Prosecution list of proposed documents to be tendered in relation to the

11    two matters that the witness testified upon on different occasions, one

12    being the Drina Corps collection and you have nine documents there on

13    direct, and seven on redirect, and then the road book, seven and five, 12.

14    Any objections, Mr. Zivanovic?

15            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I would object to the

16    tendering of documents P20805 [sic] through 2813 through this witness,

17    because these nine documents, in providing of these documents, this

18    witness did not take part, either from Yugoslav or Republika Srpska

19    authorities.  His only role in -- is in the second repacking of these

20    documents in Zagreb from 24 to 57 boxes and also he did not participate in

21    receiving of these documents in The Hague where the photos were -- where

22    the documents were unpacked and photos were taken.

23            Finally, he did not make inventory of these documents.

24            On the other hand, not a single person participating in the

25    process testified before this Trial Chamber.  Some of them provided

 1    witness statements, but not called to testify under oath and

 2    cross-examined by the Defence.

 3            Consequently, due to gap in providing and due to gap in our

 4    knowledge about places where these Drina Corps documents were for five

 5    years from 1999 to 2004, we cannot establish what documents were taken,

 6    replaced or added to the Drina Corps archives and because of that, I

 7    object to tendering of these documents through this witness.  Thank you.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.  Mr. Ostojic?

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:  We'll join in that objection, Your Honour, as well.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:  Just with respect to the second portion of the

12    documents, and I'm not sure if you covered it and I apologise, if he had,

13    the Petrovic video, we would make the same or similar objections.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nicholls?

17            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honours.  I believe that Mr. Blaszczyk

18    laid a perfectly adequate foundation for all these documents to be

19    admitted.  He had personal knowledge of all these documents, he may not

20    have been the person who actually received some of these but he laid the

21    foundation through his work in the OTP, through his knowledge of the way

22    that the documents were received, the correspondence, the official reports

23    from the Republika Srpska, and his actions in the chain of custody once

24    the documents came to Zagreb to -- and then came to us.  He was intimately

25    involved in the way these documents came.  The focus of my direct

 1    examination obviously was the chain of custody once the OTP became aware

 2    of these Drina Corps documents and once the OTP took possession of them in

 3    Banja Luka.  That's what all of these documents were referred to.  The

 4    argument about who had access to these documents earlier has nothing to do

 5    with the admission of these exhibits and I think that Mr. Blaszczyk has

 6    demonstrated to the Court that these are authentic documents, that they

 7    are probative and they're reliable and therefore they should be admitted.

 8    And most of my friends' arguments I think go to the weight, not to

 9    admission, because the admissibility has been established.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  For the purpose of admissibility

11    we are talking of relevance and probative value, and nothing else.  Of

12    course, some areas like you mentioned of authenticity are by-products of

13    probative value and also of relevance sometimes.

14            All right.  I need to confer with my colleagues.

15                          [Trial Chamber confers]

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Setting apart some of your submissions,

17    Mr. Zivanovic, with which we don't need to deal with because there is a

18    standard set for admissibility purposes at this stage, our position is

19    that we unanimously come to the conclusion that these documents on a prima

20    facie basis meet those standards and they are therefore being admitted.

21    Then obviously at the end of the exercise we will give them all the

22    attention that they deserve.

23            All right.  We also have some Defence documents from the Miletic

24    Defence team.  These have been circulated, three documents, 5D434, 5D432,

25    and 5D533.  Any objections from your part?

 1            MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Any objections from the other

 3    Defence teams?  So they are so admitted.

 4            Then I do have another list of -- from the Borovcanin team but I

 5    think that belongs to the second issue.  All right.

 6            So yes, Mr. Josse?

 7            MR. JOSSE:  Could I mention for completeness the Trial Chamber

 8    very kindly gave me a few days to consider the documents that were put to

 9    General Nicolai in re-examination, particularly bearing in mind I'm told

10    they are going to be dealt with with a witness who is coming next week, I

11    don't think he's protected but I won't give his name, I've got no

12    objection.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I thank you.  So Madam Registrar, you know

14    what we are talking about and you'll deal with that.  Thank you,

15    Mr. Josse.

16            We now -- is there any other Defence team that wishes to tender

17    documents in relation to the first part of Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony,

18    namely that relating to the Drina Corps collection and the recovery

19    thereof?  None.

20            So we move to the second matter that the witness testified upon,

21    namely the so-called road book.  As I said I think there are 12 documents

22    that the Prosecution seeks to tender.  Are there any objections?  I heard

23    before Mr. Ostojic challenging.  Yes, Mr. Ostojic?

24            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  Just given the

25    witness's testimony in connection with the road book evidence, in fact, I

 1    think it's clear so I won't recite it, I think it would be inappropriate

 2    to introduce this evidence through this witness given that he just

 3    verified some pictures and wasn't the person actually who conducted and

 4    prepared the documentation in connection with that and the video

 5    presentation that he presented.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.  Mr. Nicholls?

 7            MR. NICHOLLS:  That's not a ground for objection, I don't believe.

 8    If I understand the objection, it's just that he physically didn't select

 9    all the exhibits, the photos and put them together.  Mr. Blaszczyk made it

10    very clear that he worked with a person with more technical expertise to

11    create the CD presentation, and also the printing of the book.  We don't

12    need to call the person who hit all the computer keys when Mr. Blaszczyk

13    was there explaining where to put various photos.  We don't need to call

14    the person who worked on putting the book together and binding it.  He

15    made clear that his knowledge of these -- of these photos, exhibits and

16    documents and again as Your Honours rightly said, the issue is whether

17    it's probative and relevant when we seek to introduce evidence and I think

18    we've gone beyond a prima facie showing of relevance for all the documents

19    we seek to tender relating to the road book testimony.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I want to make sure that you're both on the

21    same wavelength and that we equally are fine-tuned with you.  Which of

22    these 12 documents in particular were you objecting to, Mr. Ostojic?

23            MR. OSTOJIC:  To all of them, Your Honour.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  All of them, okay.  All right.  Any further

25    objections from other Defence teams?  None.  I need to consult with my

 1    colleagues.

 2                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Our position is exactly the same as before,

 4    Mr. Ostojic.  We appreciate, of course, your submission and that will be

 5    taken into consideration at the right moment.  But the standards set by

 6    the rules and by the jurisprudence of this Tribunal for the admission of

 7    documents at this stage in our consideration is met and therefore these

 8    documents are hereby being admitted.

 9            Then there is a Borovcanin Defence team list of three documents,

10    they are all 4DIC and that's 194, 195 and 196.  These are colour

11    photographs, photographs that have been marked by the witness.  I take it

12    there are no objections on your part?

13            MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour, there are not.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  I wouldn't imagine there are objections from any

15    other Defence team.  None.  So these three documents are so admitted.

16            Is there anyone else who wishes to tender any other documents from

17    the Defence teams in relation to the second part of Mr. Blaszczyk's

18    testimony?  None.

19            So that closes the Blaszczyk testimony for the time being.

20            Are you ready with the next witness, Mr. Nicholls?

21            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, we are ready to proceed, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So let's call him.  We have three-quarters of

23    an hour.

24                          [The witness entered court]

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Petrovic, please put your ear-phones on because

 1    I need to address you.

 2            First of all, I hope you understand that the reason why you have

 3    been waiting is because we had a previous witness that took a little bit

 4    longer than we expected, and so, please accept the Trial Chamber's

 5    explanation and apologies.  You're here to give evidence and our rules

 6    require that before you do so, you make a solemn declaration that you will

 7    be speaking the truth.  The text is being handed to you.  Read it out and

 8    that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

 9            THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10    speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself comfortable.

12                          WITNESS:  ZORAN PETROVIC

13                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So help me God.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  You still have to put the ear-phones otherwise we

16    will have problems.

17            THE WITNESS:  I understand you.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  The reason, Mr. Petrovic, I would imagine if I speak

19    loud enough and if others speak loud enough, you will be able to hear but

20    as we go along, there are comments made by the interpreters, if there are

21    words that they haven't understood, words that they need to you repeat,

22    and you won't be able to follow unless you have the ear-phones on.  I

23    mean, I know they are uncomfortable but believe me we have to stay here

24    every day with -- for over three and a half hours with them so I can

25    understand that they are uncomfortable.  But be patient with us and we try

 1    to get over and done with this testimony as soon as we can.

 2            Just let me explain a few more things.

 3            I heard you speak in French.

 4            THE WITNESS:  Partly.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  I'll be speaking in English, for example, and others

 6    may be speaking in Serbo-Croat or in French.  I would like to know first

 7    and foremost when it comes to interpretation, which language you wish to

 8    receive.  We can provide you with English, French or your own languages,

 9    which is Serbo-Croat.  One moment.

10                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it I am informed that you have the floor

12    channel which means that you will be able to follow the proceedings in

13    whichever language they are being conducted, say if I'm speaking in

14    English you would be receiving me in English now.  I want to make sure

15    that you understand it.

16            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  And French obviously you understand otherwise you

18    wouldn't be speaking it and your own language I have no doubt you

19    understand.  So do you wish, I see that you wish to address the Trial

20    Chamber before you start giving evidence.

21            THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] First and foremost, I decided to

22    speak French for a very personal reason, but I shall speak Serbian

23    afterwards.  This had been agreed with Mrs. Carla Del Ponte's office as

24    well as Defence lawyers.  In order not to complicate matters, I wish to

25    address myself to you directly before we start, just for a few minutes

 1    because these are to me, this is vital to me.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's hear what you have to say.

 3            THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] This has to do with a letter I

 4    addressed to you.  I explained to you why I could not be here before

 5    today.  There are two things, I can clarify, and I can only clarify this

 6    with your assistance so I would like you to help me in this.

 7            Because of the report I prepared, that is the reason why I am here

 8    today.  I have suffered for years in Serbia.  This is not something very

 9    important to you here but I do not live in The Hague and I don't live in

10    Paris and I don't live in Malta.  I live in Belgrade.  So it so happens as

11    I told in the letter that a former employee of the ICTY, Mr. Ruez, caused

12    me a lot of problems in my country.  But he never actually met me, which

13    is even more serious, I believe.  When he conducted his research work, he

14    said or he concluded or he said he could not infer whether I was a

15    journalist or a policeman.  Given the regime we were living under, this, I

16    believe, is a greatest offence you can commit.  This has been recorded in

17    the official documents of this Tribunal, I think as part of the Krstic

18    case, and will remain there forever.

19            Another point I would like to clarify with Mr. McCloskey today,

20    and I hope we will be able to settle this issue, because it is very

21    similar to what Mr. Ruez has said.  In other words, I was a so-called

22    journalist, as you say in English, and what was said in 2006, before this

23    Tribunal, was not, Mr. McCloskey, not very accurate.  And in Serbia, one

24    has a feeling that I had been sent by Belgrade, when you say Belgrade that

25    means the Belgrade regime that had sent me to prepare this report which

 1    you have been using for a number of years.  I am not very spoilt.  I've

 2    done a lot of things in my life.  But this is something which I cannot

 3    accept, and I cannot forgive anyone if nobody apologises, if nobody tells

 4    me outright that this is wrong.

 5            I have been asked to be honest, I have been given a letter,

 6    Mr. McCloskey did, and I think this issue was cleared up, and I'm grateful

 7    to him for that.  But there is the office of Mrs. Carla Del Ponte and I

 8    cannot accept that even though I am not such a resourceful person, I

 9    cannot live with that so I would like you to settle this issue very

10    quickly.  It's not very complicated to do.  Mrs. Carla Del Ponte's office

11    can also say something.  But if somebody has not understood me, I

12    recommend you to read Avishai Margalit, the Israeli philosopher's book,

13    entitled, "The decent society."  That is the driving force behind my

14    speech today.

15            The last thing I wanted to say but which is very important if you

16    set it against the backdrop of Serbia, I -- for some unknown reason, all

17    the lawyers and various departments of this Tribunal avoided me.  My

18    pictures have been used extensively.  There were a lot of so-called

19    experts and I'm the greatest so this was quite clear in General Krstic's

20    trial and nobody called me before 2002.  Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin who asked

21    me to come and testify to talk about what I saw whilst I was shooting this

22    video, and I accepted this on moral grounds.  I know that the witnesses

23    here are neither in favour of one or other party so to speak but over

24    there, it is very important for me to be able to say that the reason why I

25    was asked to come -- I was asked to come, and it was Mr. Borovcanin asked

 1    me to come and I want everybody to know this in Serbia.  I'm sure you will

 2    understand what I'm saying.  It doesn't matter, I was without a witness to

 3    begin with and I want my people to help me and I want my people to know

 4    about this.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you so much, Mr. Petrovic.  Let me explain

 6    just a couple of things before we proceed.  It's true that you sent a

 7    letter addressed to us directly following the issue of the subpoena.

 8            I conceded at the time that you were unaware, as most people are,

 9    that it's not regular procedure, not a regular practice to write directly

10    to the Chamber, to the Judges, but there is a special procedure that one

11    needs to follow, failing which basically it is the duty of the Judges to

12    not only to ignore that letter but to send it over to the registrar who

13    would then communicate with you and explain to you that you cannot do

14    this, this is wrong, et cetera, et cetera.  We didn't even do that because

15    reading through the letter, we understood that this was not a frivolous

16    letter that you were writing but you were justifying, trying to justify

17    that your failure to attend previously was not motivated by any contempt

18    towards the Tribunal but because of personal reasons that you had and

19    which you wanted to make known to the Trial Chamber.

20            So I think that explains to you why you did not get a response

21    from the Trial Chamber.  The Trial Chamber is not expected to act except

22    in one way and we didn't even act that way, not to embarrass you and not

23    to create problems for you.

24            And I hope you understand now what happened.

25            The other thing is the complaint you have against Mr. Ruez.  I

 1    think the only person who can provide or create a remedy is you yourself

 2    now, that have been given this golden opportunity to have your day in

 3    court where you can explain why you disagree completely with what was

 4    stated about you by Mr. Ruez in the past.  And you will have every

 5    opportunity to do that, even if no direct questions are put to you on the

 6    issue.

 7            The third thing, and which you complained about the way you were

 8    described in this trial by Mr. McCloskey, I think, has been cleared by

 9    Mr. McCloskey in a most dignified manner.  And I do wish to express our

10    appreciation for the way you did this, Mr. McCloskey, because it was the

11    right and fit thing to do in the circumstances.  Asking us, however, to

12    intervene with Mrs. Del Ponte's office or with her personally to deal with

13    the rest, which is more or less related to what was stated by

14    Mr. McCloskey is beyond what we can do.  And I would suggest to you, you

15    seem to be a very reasonable and sensible person, with whom we can have a

16    healthy exchange while your testimony progresses, I think I would suggest

17    to you that you consider that when Mr. McCloskey expressed his regrets and

18    provided you with an explanation, that was not only his own personal

19    position that he was taking.  He doesn't come into this courtroom and make

20    a representation on his own behalf.  He represents Mrs. Del Ponte, and her

21    office, that is the Prosecutor of this Tribunal.  So if there was an

22    apology, I would suggest that you also take it as an apology from the

23    office of the Prosecutor and not merely as one forthcoming from

24    Mr. McCloskey himself.  And I hope that satisfies you and that we can

25    proceed.

 1            THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I thank you for understanding.  We will

 3    certainly not finish your testimony.

 4            THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you and I do accept.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  But I could understand.  This is the

 6    complication.  I can follow you in French.  So I got the interpretation

 7    after I had already understood what you had stated.

 8            THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Now I can go to speaking the Serb

 9    language, if you wish.  I said in French what I wanted to say, so to

10    accelerate matters, I can now go into Serb.  I was listening to you in

11    English.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Petrovic, you can -- you have to keep it

13    because, for example, sometimes I receive comments that you were running

14    too fast, for example.  You wouldn't know that were you running too fast

15    so you need to keep the headphones.  It won't be of any help to yourself

16    and to us if you remove them.  We will spend --

17            THE WITNESS:  No, no.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  You can speak whichever language you choose.

19            THE WITNESS:  I will follow you in English, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Thank you.  And you can then

21    speak and intervene in Serbian.

22            THE WITNESS:  Serbian, yeah.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  That will be translated to us because we don't

24    understand the language.

25            Okay.  So we can now start the procedure.  It's going to be like

 1    this.  Mr. Nicholls for the Office of the Prosecutor is going to go first.

 2    He is expected to last about two hours, I take it.  He will then be

 3    followed by the various Defence teams, and it's estimated we are in the

 4    region of about three hours all of them put together.  I also wanted to

 5    tell you one thing, since you mentioned something about the Defence teams

 6    that they have ignored you, they haven't shown you any importance, et

 7    cetera.  It's not the case.  I can assure you that whenever we have

 8    discussed you or your report here, that was done with the utmost respect

 9    both from the Prosecution and from the Defence counsel.  So please put

10    your mind at rest that you enjoy all the respect and if we notice that

11    anyone shows disrespect to you, we will intervene and protect you.

12            THE WITNESS:  I understand.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Nicholls.  We'll finish

14    at 7.00 sharp.

15            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16                          Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

17       Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

18       A.   Good afternoon.

19       Q.   The first thing I want to ask you about is your background.  Then

20    I'll ask you a little bit about how you know Mr. Borovcanin.  And then the

21    third thing I'll ask you about is, as His Honour put to you, for you to

22    explain in your own words how you came to travel to Srebrenica and

23    Potocari and film this footage.  So we'll get to that quite soon.

24            First of all, could you tell us your full name for the record,

25    please?

 1       A.   My name is Zoran Petrovic.

 2       Q.   Okay.  And --

 3       A.   My nickname is Pirocanac because there it's like John Smith in

 4    England and America.  Zoran Petrovic is John Smith, so everybody knows me

 5    by my nickname.

 6       Q.   And can you just tell us what the nickname means, if it does mean

 7    anything?

 8       A.   I think it -- nomen est omen.  It means that my parents came from

 9    this region near Bulgarian border.  This is a town Piroc and Pirocanac is

10    a man from Pirot, Pirotian, if you want.

11       Q.   Okay.  Now, when were you born?

12       A.   I was born in Belgrade, 30 of August, 1953.

13       Q.   And how long have you lived in Belgrade or are have you lived --

14       A.   All my life.

15       Q.   Whole life, okay.  Can you tell us about your -- just a little bit

16    about your education and then your professional background as a

17    journalist.  What -- briefly give us a run through of your career.

18       A.   I graduated at the philological faculty of Belgrade, French

19    literature and language.  I did my post-graduate studies, my master in --

20    at Paris university, Ecole des hautes etudes en sciences sociales, one of

21    the prestigious schools in France.  And I am just about to finish my PhD

22    at the same school.  This was one very important reason for which I

23    couldn't satisfy your needs before.  So I'm employee of the Institute of

24    Political Studies in Belgrade which is a state-run institution.  And in

25    this institute, I lead a small centre for geopolitical studies which is

 1    called southeast Jugoistok in Serbian.  So I am, I could say, an expert in

 2    geopolitics.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us a little bit about your work as a

 4    journalist and whether that was primarily as a reporter, if I use the

 5    right word, or whether you also worked as a cameraman in the past before

 6    1995?

 7       A.   I started in famous Belgrade student weekly, Student, which gave,

 8    we can say best journalist in ex-Yugoslavia.  So in -- but practically

 9    started with the mainstream media in 79, I was for six months in

10    Nicaraguan war, covering events in Nicaragua.  I went two more times.  So

11    my career was mostly world policy subjects connected with the hot spots in

12    the planet.  So I did a lot of reports from Israel, I was in Lebanon in

13    85, I was kept and captured for 40 days by some tough group.  So I have a

14    long experience in difficult subjects.  And I covered also events in civil

15    war in Yugoslavia, in ex-Yugoslavia, Vukovar, Sarajevo, Majevica,

16    Semizovac, Srebrenica; so I covered most of the important events.

17            Mostly I worked during the war for French television, TF1, which

18    is the biggest private television in Europe, and I was most of my career

19    independent journalist.  I was the first, if I can say, independent,

20    freelance journalist from the communist world ever in this foundation,

21    Journalistes En Europe in France which was founded by the founder of Le

22    Monde, Hubert Beuve-Mery, and I am very proud of this moment in my CV.  So

23    mostly I couldn't get full employment in Serbia.  I worked and my best

24    years were in Croatian magazine Star which was best-ever magazine in

25    Yugoslavia.  So I was known for at least 20 years from now as a known

 1    journalist, as le grand reporteur, as the French say.  So I'm just for

 2    three years permanently employed and I'm nearer to my retirement than to

 3    the beginning, much nearer.  So -- but this is a society we lived in.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you some questions about

 5    Mr. Borovcanin, and if -- could you start by telling -- excuse me, when

 6    you first met Mr. Borovcanin?

 7       A.   If you allow me, I will start now in Serbian.

 8       Q.   That's fine.

 9       A.   For other people.  [Interpretation] I met Mr. Borovcanin for the

10    first time, if I recall correctly, in 1994, in the winter of 1994.  There

11    was a large offensive.  A telecommunications system was supposed to be

12    taken over at Mount Majevica close to the Serbian border.  I wanted to

13    make a reportage for the telegraph weekly published in Belgrade.  If the

14    interpreters believe I'm going too fast, by all means they should warn me.

15    I appreciate their work and I know that most people speak too fast.

16            It was an exceptionally interesting situation for a journalist to

17    be in since a group of Serb soldiers was surrounded at the top of the

18    mountain where the telecommunications centre was, and it was one of the

19    key points for telecommunications links in the whole of Yugoslavia.  This

20    was the crossroads of TV, communication networks, a very sensitive spot.

21    And I asked to go and report from there.  I didn't know that I would meet

22    Mr. Borovcanin then.  Together with a group of their soldiers, I climbed

23    up the mountain in deep snow.  It was very difficult to get through the

24    encirclement.  Fire was opened upon us and the same applied to when we

25    were going back a week later.

 1            Why was it interesting for me?  I learned that some Mujahedin were

 2    there, volunteers from the Muslim countries, and I personally saw them

 3    there in close proximity of the Serbian positions.  Those are the guys

 4    yelling Tekbir, Tekbir, and are fierce and fanatical fighters.  The

 5    reportage was published, including the cover page, and it was a scoop for

 6    me.  As far as I recall, perhaps I met commander Saric, I'm not certain

 7    because they didn't go all the way up to the summit.  I didn't go with

 8    them.  I went with a group of soldiers.  A year later, perhaps a bit over

 9    one year, in 1995, in the summer of that year, three to four weeks before

10    the events in Srebrenica, I located them again and I wanted to take some

11    footage for Studio B, although at that point, or subsequently, I never

12    received a camera from that poor TV station.  They had one camera and they

13    needed it in the city in order to cover the events there.

14            That -- the case referred to here and the camera I'm talking about

15    is also something I had at Semizovac when we went with Ljubisa Borovcanin

16    to reach their positions; they were in a double ring of encirclement.

17    They were encircled from the outside and from the inside by the Muslims,

18    and to cover a few hundred metres as the crow flies we had to take the

19    round about way of some 80 kilometres.  That is why some footage may be

20    too long but I know that Christiane Amanpour, at the time, made a report

21    with the Black Swans which was a special unit of the Bosnian army.  And

22    there were a number of Islamic volunteers there as well.  I wanted to do

23    the same but she has a team of 10 to 15 to work with.  Those people of Mr.

24    Borovcanin's helped me that I showed the conditions they were in living in

25    the forest and at the positions.  The broadcast was actually called, "When

 1    you catch a fox alive."

 2            And the third meeting was concerning Srebrenica, when I

 3    established contact with that unit from Belgrade.  I asked for him,

 4    although I wasn't able to locate him right away.  Then he called back.  It

 5    was probably on the 12th of July.  I had certain doubts as to the date,

 6    whether it was the 12th or the 13th or the 13th and the 14th.  However, we

 7    agreed that it was probably the 13th and the 14th.

 8            Thanks to the date you can see on the footage itself.

 9            It was long expected that Srebrenica would fall.  It was expected

10    to happen for months and all the world agencies were reporting on that and

11    that's why I wanted to go there.

12       Q.   Thank you.  Let me go back a bit and ask you a couple of follow-up

13    questions and then we'll get to July.

14            The campaign at Mount Majevica, if I pronounce it correctly, how

15    long did you spend with Mr. or Commander Borovcanin at that time in 1994?

16       A.   I cannot recall exactly.  I was at the staff, down there.  I don't

17    know what the place was called.  And I probably saw him there with Saric.

18    In any case, I know I saw General Saric first, in the reportage,

19    General Saric figures as a more important person than Mr. Borovcanin.  But

20    I don't remember we had any particular contact then.  Maybe I was wrong.

21    Maybe I just saw him at the command then.

22       Q.   Okay.

23       A.   In any case, his team, his elite unit, permitted me to go there at

24    my own risk all the way up to the summit.  I was embedded.  They covered

25    me, tried to have me not get killed, but that was basically their task.  I

 1    was quite lucky.

 2       Q.   So let me just -- I think this is clear but let me just make sure.

 3    When you were with Mr. Borovcanin's unit in 1994, you were embedded, as

 4    you say, that was during -- you were with them while they were in actual

 5    combat; is that right?

 6       A.   I climbed up to a group of soldiers, maybe 50 strong or perhaps up

 7    to 100, they were defending the relay point which is strategically very

 8    important.  All around there were Mujahedin, and I know that, for example,

 9    when I left the house, I was followed by their doctor and was -- who was

10    wounded in the leg by the Muslim soldiers.  It was quite tough.  The news

11    report was published.  Had we discussed this earlier, you would have been

12    able to find it in the Telegraph.  It was five or six pages long.

13       Q.   Thank you.  Just very briefly how long were you embedded with that

14    unit, with Mr. Borovcanin's unit?

15       A.   I climbed up to the top -- well, maybe two or three days, I

16    believe it was in March, maybe you can see it in the newspaper.  There was

17    a great snowstorm, bad weather.  I was there during the time I needed to

18    make the news report, take some photographs and then descend.  It was

19    quite an effort for them because they had to enter the besieged area and

20    then leave it again.  It's always a risk to have soldiers wounded.

21    However, I believe I justified their trust and efforts since I produced a

22    balanced report that I'm proud of.

23       Q.   Thank you.  Now, if could you please tell me -- you started to

24    talk about this and I asked to you stop for a minute -- about how you came

25    to meet with Mr. Borovcanin in July 1995 in Bratunac, the process first of

 1    who you had to ask for permission or what you had to do to be able to go

 2    and report on the events in Srebrenica.

 3       A.   I managed to do that with a very state-of-the-art device called

 4    telephone, since it was in another country in Republika Srpska.  I was in

 5    Serbia and when on the 11th of July all news agencies of the world

 6    announced that Serbs entered Srebrenica, in the world of journalists it is

 7    madness because everyone wants to be there from all over the world.  By

 8    the way, when I was there, there were dozens of different journalists, but

 9    no one asked them to talk about it.  Maybe they might be of assistance,

10    people such as Mr. Block from England or a photographer from the US.  They

11    came there with NGOs as usual.  There was this excitement among the

12    journalists, there were dozens of them from Serbia, and all over.  And on

13    the 12th, since I initially failed to contact those people, I set out

14    towards the border crossing called Ljubovija, there is a bridge over the

15    Drina River.  I tried to cross it with my passport and with my press ID,

16    however, unsuccessfully.

17            They told me that operations were on going, Serbs had entered

18    Srebrenica but battles were going on for a while after that.

19            I returned to Belgrade and during that day, in the evening, I

20    believe, I managed to convey my message to Mr. Borovcanin's unit and he

21    called back.

22            The credit which I had earned objectively reporting on their unit

23    was probably decisive.  The next day, he waited for me at the bridge, at

24    which I had not been able to pass the previous day, and then we entered

25    Bratunac.

 1       Q.   Thank you.  And can you just tell me very briefly what -- how you

 2    explained to Mr. Borovcanin what you wanted to do and what you wanted to

 3    accomplish by going to Srebrenica and what he said to you about being able

 4    to come and work with his and be with his --

 5       A.   [In English] Can you repeat the beginning?

 6       Q.   Yes, it's not a good question.  What did Mr. Borovcanin say to you

 7    during that telephone conversation when he called you back?

 8       A.   [Interpretation] I truly do not recall the conversation.  However,

 9    I know that we discussed that I couldn't cross.  I must have told him that

10    I tried on the 11th and the 12th to do that.  I tried to get into touch

11    with the press service of Republika Srpska as did other Serbian

12    journalists but we were all told not to come.  We were -- we are a small

13    country, a small village, so to say, we all know each other and someone

14    told me, Pirocanac, don't come here.  I don't know whether it was a

15    Colonel.  In any case he told me, don't come here; we would have to arrest

16    you since operations are still ongoing.  The same situation as in Iraq, if

17    you are not embedded with US troops, it is impossible for you to enter as

18    a journalist.  That was the situation.  I don't remember any other

19    details.  I do remember, however, that I tried to persuade him to help me

20    to see what was going on.  He agreed right away.  He could have said no.

21       Q.   And thank you.  This conversation was on the 12th?

22       A.   [In English] Maybe it was 11th, I cannot be sure.

23       Q.   Thank you.  And then you started to say how you met Mr. Borovcanin

24    at the bridge in Bratunac.  Best as you recollect, what day was that that

25    you met Mr. Borovcanin?

 1       A.   The 13th of July.  I don't know the day now.  I should look to the

 2    calendar.

 3       Q.   Okay.

 4       A.   But it was 13th.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  And best as you remember, about what time was it that

 6    you met on the bridge?

 7       A.   Well, [Interpretation] There was a procedure.  You first had to

 8    cross the Serbian border and then the border into Republika Srpska on the

 9    other end of the bridge.  In any case, since a lot of time has passed, I

10    can go by the first scene that you can see in my report, when I arrived at

11    the Dutch compound.  It was around 2.30 or perhaps around 3.00.  I think

12    the first time recorded is 14 hours 29 minutes.  Perhaps the procedure

13    took some half hour at the bridge.  I don't think it is very important.

14    In any case, I entered Bratunac and the compound around 2.30 or 3.00, as

15    far as I recall.  And this can be checked against the recording, the

16    footage.

17       Q.   Thank you.  We just have a few minutes.  I've got a couple other

18    questions before we break for the day.  You recall you met with me for the

19    first time on 28th of February in Belgrade in our field office there?

20       A.   2005?

21       Q.   2006.

22       A.   6, yeah.

23       Q.   And also with me was Mr. Blaszczyk, my investigator?

24       A.   Blaszczyk.

25       Q.   And Zoran Lesic?

 1       A.   Employee, yeah.

 2       Q.   Employee with the --

 3       A.   Sound was not so well at the end.

 4       Q.   And on that day, do you recall that you provided us with a copy of

 5    your raw footage from the 8-millimetre tape that you had, the original

 6    tape you had used in July 1995?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And do you recall signing -- that we asked to you sign the tape

 9    and you were -- excuse me?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes?

11            MR. LAZAREVIC:  This whole series of questions were leading ones.

12    Obviously.  My colleague is putting his -- well, his assertion to the

13    witness asking him to confirm.  So he knows the way how to ask questions.

14    I think it would be more proper because it's examination-in-chief.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

16            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, I can do that, Your Honour.  I frankly didn't

17    think this was a matter where I would be getting an objection but I

18    don't -- should I just -- I'll move on.

19       Q.   After you gave us the copy of your 8 millimetre tape and we copied

20    it on our equipment, did we ask to you do anything with that tape?

21       A.   I didn't understand quite well.

22       Q.   I'm not surprised.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Strictly speaking, you're right, Mr. Lazarevic but

24    it's more practical to proceed the way Mr. Nicholls was handling the --

25            THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, I didn't hear well the question.

 1            MR. NICHOLLS:

 2       Q.   It's simple.  Do you recall that you signed the tape for us, the

 3    copy that you --

 4       A.   I signed several things among this cassette also.

 5       Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, now, the copy that we made from the

 6    tape you brought to the interview, what was the tape that you brought to

 7    the interview, your 8-millimetre tape?  Was that an original recording or

 8    was that copy of a copy of a copy or something?

 9       A.   No, I gave I think already before to Mr. McCloskey, if I remember,

10    to his crew, VHS cassette of the disappeared original 28 minutes programme

11    documentary Operation Srebrenica that I found finally in Canada, if you

12    believe or not, because the original disappeared from Studio B.  Until

13    today nobody explained how it was possible because, as I know, it is the

14    only in the history of 20 years of Studio B, only original programme made

15    which disappeared.  It was on the cassette which was called Umatic.  It's

16    not any more in use, very big, and it disappeared I was told from Studio B

17    from the bureau of the editor-in-chief.  So -- but I was lucky that some

18    Serbs in Canada kept this cassette so this is one material.  And you are

19    talking about our meeting and this was my cassette, original, with some

20    slight changes.  I think today I don't know what happened for everything

21    which was there but I was happy when my -- my VHS copy reappeared to

22    explain a lot of things.

23       Q.   Thank you.  I'll ask you a couple more questions about that

24    tomorrow.

25            MR. NICHOLLS:  If we can, Judge, this would be a good time for me

 1    to break.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's perfect.  Mr. Petrovic it's time to stop here

 3    today because our time is over.  You will have time to relax because we

 4    will be sitting tomorrow in the afternoon.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say -- as this is the end of

 6    the day, if you will entitle me to be a little bit cynical in French.  As

 7    I have spent over four hours up top there, there was very cold breeze up

 8    there.  It was a bit claustrophobic.  I'm not a softie but I couldn't help

 9    thinking that this is what happened when people were deprived all the time

10    and there was air coming in all the time.  I hope I don't have to wait

11    four hours tomorrow again, thank you.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Tomorrow we will start immediately with you at 2.15

13    in the afternoon.  Thank you.

14            THE WITNESS:  Merci.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

16                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of

17                          December, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.