Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19412

 1                          Friday, 11 January 2008

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Registrar, good morning to you.  Could

 7    you call the case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9    number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam.

11            Good morning, everybody.  All the accused are here.  From the

12    Defence teams, I only notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon.  The Prosecution

13    composition of the Prosecution team is as yesterday.  The witness is

14    already present.

15            Good morning to you, Colonel.

16            THE WITNESS:  Good morning, sir.

17                          WITNESS:  JOSEPH KINGORI [Resumed]

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  So, Mr. Lazarevic.

19            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Thank you and good morning to you,

20    Your Honours.  Good morning, Colonel.

21                          Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:  [Continued]

22       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, yesterday we spoke about the action

23    taken by the 28th Division from the Srebrenica area, and I'm talking about

24    Serbian territory now, but can we just go back briefly to the subject that

25    you discussed with my learned friend Mr. Zivanovic, who was

Page 19413

 1    cross-examining you, the shelling of Srebrenica.

 2            I asked you about your proofing session yesterday.  I asked you

 3    about the proofing notes that you received from the OTP as well, and you

 4    told me you've never seen those.  Let me tell you one thing that I found

 5    in those notes, and I'm expecting you to please just confirm whether you

 6    shared anything like that with the OTP during your actual proofing or not.

 7            Thank you.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

 9            Mr. Thayer.

10            MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your

11    Honours, good morning, everyone.

12            Sorry to intervene so early.  I'm don't know whether it's just a

13    translation or transcription issue.  I don't think there's any evidence

14    and it's certainly not the case that this witness was furnished with my

15    proofing notes.  I just wanted to clarify that before we went any further.

16            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Then I apologise.  It's probably,

17    then, a translation issue.  I mean, the witness was very clear that he

18    never received this.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Then it is definitely, I mean, because that's what

20    the transcript says.

21            MR. LAZAREVIC:  This is why -- this is why I would just like to

22    quote this part of the proofing notes to the witness.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

24            Colonel, is it clear to you?  No one is suggesting that you were

25    handed a copy of the proofing notes, but reference is going to be made to

Page 19414

 1    them and you're going to be asked a question.

 2            THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Fine, sir.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 4            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   You see, Colonel, I'm looking at your proofing notes and I found

 6    the following sentence.  I'll read it back to you.  Tell me whether you

 7    shared anything like that with the OTP during the proofing?

 8            [In English] "The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina Communication

 9    Centre would constitute a legitimate military target."

10            [Interpretation] Therefore, is it your position that the Army's

11    Communication Centre would constitute a legitimate target, which it is

12    therefore legitimate to fire upon?

13       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I agree.

14       Q.   Thank you very much, Witness.  If we could just elaborate on this

15    a little, may I ask you this:   What about, for example, a building

16    housing the headquarters of a military unit, would that, too, constitute a

17    legitimate military target, sir?

18       A.   Correct, Your Honour, it would.

19       Q.   Thank you very much.  Now I would like to show you a document.

20            MR. LAZAREVIC:  [In English] Your Honours, I have to give a brief

21    explanation regarding this document.

22            We were working very hard on documents regarding this case, and

23    the late - "late" meant last evening - very lately, we discovered one

24    document which we found very significant for this case.  I only have it in

25    hard copy, one copy in B/C/S.  I already informed my colleague,

Page 19415

 1    Mr. Thayer, about this document.  We will do our best to provide the Trial

 2    Chamber with a -- with translation of this document as soon as practical,

 3    but we find it highly important for this case.

 4            It's a document dated the 22nd of February, 1995.  It is from

 5    Srebrenica, and it is basically a list of premises that were used by the

 6    28th Division within Srebrenica and the surrounding villages.  It contains

 7    something like - I didn't count it - but maybe around 20 places where

 8    various portions of 28th Division's headquarters, staff communications

 9    centre, and other -- other parts of 28th Division were located within

10    Srebrenica.

11            So I would just like to put it on the ELMO, so I don't know

12    whether the witness can help us much with it.  It's in B/C/S, but I would

13    like to tender this document into evidence.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  What's the -- what's the source of this document? Is

15    it a document provided by the Prosecution?

16            MR. LAZAREVIC:  We found it on the EDS, and --

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay, that's enough.

18            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   Colonel, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that you can't help us

20    much with this document, since we don't have it in a language that you

21    understand.  But it is a very important document for our purposes, so I'll

22    be asking you questions about certain details from this document in order

23    to clarify a number of issues.

24            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Can we just see the lower -- the upper

25    part?  Is it possible to have the whole page on the screen?

Page 19416

 1            Thank you.

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] You see, Colonel, this document was found within

 3    the possession of the OTP.  What we see here is the commander of the 28th

 4    Division.  As far as I can see, it says:   "Inspection of the premises

 5    used by the Armed Forces of the Republic of B and H, Tuzla Secretariat of

 6    Defence," and then at "1" we see the Command of the 8th Operations Group

 7    of Srebrenica.

 8            Now you, told us already at one point in time the 28th Division

 9    had its name changed to "Operations Group 8."  Do you remember telling us

10    that, sir?

11       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

12       Q.   You see what it says here, don't you?  The commander or the HQ of

13    OG-8 is at a facility known as "Lovac" in Srebrenica's old town.  Are you

14    familiar with that facility, sir?

15       A.   I'm familiar with the name, not maybe the facility you're talking

16    about, but I'm familiar with the name "Lovac."

17       Q.   At "B" we see that the facility is being used by the Command of

18    OG-8.  There's the area mentioned, the surface, and it says it's being

19    used by the Command.

20            Roman numeral II, the 280 1st Light Infantry Brigade of Potocari,

21    the family home owned by Meho Hrvacic at Potocari.  That's wait says.  I

22    assume you don't know specifically which home this might be, but what this

23    document tells us is that it was used for the purposes of the 280th

24    Brigade.

25            Further, at 2(a), facility, old Territorial Defence staff in

Page 19417

 1    Srebrenica.  Do you happen to know where that building is located?

 2       A.   No.  I don't know where it's located, unless maybe you give me a

 3    specific location; otherwise, I don't know.

 4       Q.   I'd love to do that, but frankly I'm not entirely sure myself.

 5    Believe me, Colonel, however, we shall find a way of demonstrating that.

 6            If we look at the rest of this document, page 1 and page 2, there

 7    is a list there of various facilities used either by the Command of OG-8

 8    in Srebrenica or certain brigades that were part of OG-8.  There are a

 9    total of about 20 facilities, some in Srebrenica and some around

10    Srebrenica in the surrounding villages, apparently being used by various

11    HQs, commands, logistics, sections belonging to the 28th Division or OG-8.

12            In your opinion, sir, and based on everything you've told us so

13    far, would that -- or would those constitute, likewise, legitimate

14    military targets?

15       A.   Your Honour, it depends on what these facilities were holding.

16    Right now, it's difficult to estimate or even know the kind of equipment

17    which were -- which were there to make it a military target.

18            As far as I know, the building that we were living in, that is,

19    the PTT building, as I said earlier, could have constituted a military

20    target because of its strategic position, and also it's housing the

21    communication equipment.

22            But, really, when you're talking about the whole enclave, then I

23    doubt how it can constitute a military target, and especially when you

24    know for sure it is holding very many civilians and you really do not want

25    the civilians to become a target.  For any conventional force, you don't

Page 19418

 1    target civilians, you do not, and you avoid hitting areas that have

 2    civilians in them.  So --

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop, stop.

 4            Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Thayer, and Colonel, we allowed the question to

 5    go and the witness to start answering it.  However, we have moved from

 6    what is or what would be a legitimate question to a question which

 7    elicits, for all intents and purposes, an opinion by or from the witness

 8    on what is strictly legal.

 9            We're talking of what constitutes a legitimate target and what

10    doesn't.  I mean, I don't think we should ask the witness to give us that

11    information.  That is a legal matter that we can deal with at the right

12    moment or when the time comes.

13            So I would suggest that you move either to something else or to

14    refine or limit your question to what would be strictly acceptable.

15            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] As always, Your Honour is right and

16    I'll skip to something different.

17       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, the last thing we talked about yesterday

18    were the attacks launched by the 28th Division, at least based on

19    documents that we saw yesterday.  These attacks were carried out against

20    Serb-held territory.  You told us that you were familiar with that and

21    everything else that was going on.

22            I have another document from the same set now, the same set as the

23    previous document, I mean.  The date is the 23rd of June, 1995.  To all

24    practical intents, this is a monthly report by the 28th Division that was

25    forwarded to the 2nd Corps in Tuzla.

Page 19419

 1            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] It's in B/C/S, and the ERN number

 2    is DA18-2435.  Likewise, this is a B/C/S document.

 3            Can we just look at the title page, if it could please be placed

 4    on the ELMO, and then we shall be focusing on a portion -- a specific

 5    portion on page 2 of this document.

 6       Q.   I just wanted you to look at the header of this document, sir.  I

 7    will translate that for your benefit.  It says:  "BH Army, Command of the

 8    28th Division, Security section."  There is the number and the date, the

 9    23rd of June, 1995.  This is a monthly report delivered to the 2nd Corps,

10    which is based in Tuzla.

11            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please move on to page

12    2 of this document, second paragraph, please.

13       Q.   We see item 3, the situation in the Command and units.  I will

14    skip the first sentence, but then it goes on to say:  "On the 22nd of

15    June, 1995, DIV Sabotage and Reconnaissance Platoons were dispatched by

16    units to carry out active sabotage in the general Kragljivode area and

17    along the Vlasenica-Han Pijesak Road.  Acts of sabotage were launched in

18    order to provide assistance to units of the 1st, 2nd, and other Corps in

19    order to stretch enemy forces."

20            That is the end of the portion that I wanted to show you, sir.

21            What about what I've just told you, does that not, in essence,

22    confirm everything that we've been studying, based on previous documents

23    especially yesterday; namely, the fact that the 28th Division, which

24    obviously was within the Srebrenica enclave, was dispatching its sabotage

25    and reconnaissance platoons in order to carry out acts of sabotage outside

Page 19420

 1    the enclave itself?

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't want to interrupt again, but this matter was

 3    dealt with yesterday, I don't know whether by you or Mr. Zivanovic, and

 4    the witness explained that insofar as attacks or actions or activities

 5    outside the enclave itself, he could tell us nothing.  In actual fact, he

 6    could tell us barely anything about what was happening inside the enclave,

 7    in any case, so I wouldn't like you to ask repetitive questions.

 8            Actually, what we have in this document is almost a replication of

 9    what we had in another document that we were shown yesterday.

10            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] All right, Your Honour, I will then

11    move to another issue.

12       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, what was your relationship with

13    Dutch-Bat or with UNPROFOR, generally speaking?  Did you exchange

14    experiences, information, you and Dutch-Bat, their command, Colonel

15    Karremans, and everybody else there?

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  I mean, correct me if I am wrong, Colonel, but I

17    think you were asked this question yesterday and you explained that you

18    were instructed to exchange views laterally, I remember, and vertically.

19    So if I'm not correct, if it was a different question, I stand to be

20    corrected, but I think it was.  I think it was the same question, yes.

21            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] The question was slightly different,

22    but this was the foundation of questions for the next line of documents

23    that I would like to show to the witness.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead.

25            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19421

 1       Q.   There was some exchange of information between you and Dutch-Bat

 2    in Srebrenica; right?

 3       A.   It's true, there was.

 4       Q.   Thank you very much.

 5            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have 4D00128.

 6    4D00128, please.

 7       Q.   Colonel, you see the document in front of you.  It's in English.

 8    You can read that document, but what I'm really interested in is the

 9    header.

10            This is a letter written by General Nikolai Cornelis and sent to

11    General Rasim Delic on the 26th of June, 1995.

12            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to page 2 of

13    this document.

14       Q.   Can you please read the first two paragraphs.  They are rather

15    brief.  The first one reads:  [In English] "I also have to inform you that

16    the commanding officer of Dutch-Bat during the last few weeks for several

17    times had to warn your troops in the enclave to restrain from attacks

18    outside the safe area.

19            "As you will understand, these kinds of attacks cause responses

20    which endanger the safety of the civil population in the safe area and

21    make it very difficult for UNPROFOR to protect the safe area in any an

22    appropriate way."

23            [Interpretation] You see, General Nikolai sent this letter to

24    Rasim Delic, the BH Army general, informing him that UNPROFOR, or rather,

25    the Command of Dutch-Bat in Srebrenica were trying to prevent attacks

Page 19422

 1    being carried out from within the enclave against the Serbs.

 2            Did you receive this type of information from Dutch-Bat as well?

 3       A.   First of all, Your Honour, I don't know whether this letter is

 4    directed to the CO Dutch-Bat.  Secondly, the letter is on an UNPROFOR

 5    letterhead, I think - that is what I saw - and is written by two people

 6    who are not, I think, working with -- were not working with UNPROFOR.  I

 7    don't know, but is that what I saw on the first page?

 8            I'm not trying to doubt the authenticity of the letter, but what

 9    I'm saying is this letter was not addressed to CO Dutch-Bat, and I don't

10    think there's any way I could have come in contact with such a letter.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  That wasn't the question.  The question, yes, let's

12    see the first page again.

13            Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I was just going to ask that perhaps

15    to uncomplicate things, if the witness could just be given a thorough

16    opportunity to read the entire document.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I think it's very important for the witness to

18    read the entire document, because the question that Mr. Lazarevic put to

19    him was:  "On the basis of what you read in this document, did you ever

20    receive this type of information from Dutch-Bat?"

21            This is what Mr. Lazarevic wants to know from you.

22            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honours, maybe while we wait for

23    the witness to finish reading this document, maybe I should read for the

24    record the DRN number for the first documents that I used today, because

25    I -- it simply slipped my mind.

Page 19423

 1            The document we were dealing with premises used by the 28th

 2    Division, dated 22nd of February, 1995, bears number DAA -- DA17-8185.

 3       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, you were able to read the whole letter

 4    now, and you can see that it was sent by General Nikolai of UNPROFOR to

 5    General Rasim Delic, as you can see in the letterhead.  You can also see

 6    who received it.  Therefore, General Nikolai sent this information for

 7    which he says he had received from the Dutch-Bat commander.

 8            My question is:  Did you receive the same information from the

 9    Dutch-Bat commander?

10       A.   Your Honour, I did not receive any information concerning this,

11    this letter, or any issues therein, only that at least I know there was no

12    fuel.  But information coming from Dutch-Bat concerning this, I did not

13    receive.

14       Q.   I would like to ask you another thing concerning this matter.

15    Concerning these events, there was an investigation conducted by Dutch-Bat

16    members.  Did you know that?

17       A.   Your Honour, I think there's one thing that I may try to clear, in

18    that it's not everything that was going on in Dutch-Bat that I had to

19    know.  They did not have to tell me everything, and, in fact, there was no

20    obligation for them to tell me anything.  Likewise, even what we heard is

21    not -- was not necessarily to be directed or communicated to them in any

22    way whatsoever, other than where we think there is a mutual interest in

23    some of these issues.

24            The letters, they were being directed to them, and they didn't

25    have to disclose whether the letters had gone to them or even the contents

Page 19424

 1    of those letters to any of us.  There was no obligation on that.

 2       Q.   Yes, I understand that fully.  However, there was an order in

 3    place -- well, I'm not sure whether it was an order or an instruction for

 4    you to cooperate with them, to cooperate with the Dutch-Bat command. Both

 5    you and them were members of the UN; therefore, such cooperation would

 6    only have been logical.

 7            What I find interesting is that these are significant incidents

 8    with dozens of killed and wounded on the Serb side, and yet it seems you

 9    did not exchange that type of information with Dutch-Bat members.  This is

10    what I'm interested in.

11            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have a look at

12    4D129 in relation to that.

13       Q.   Again, it is the 26th of June, 1995, and, again, General Nikolai

14    is sending a letter to General Mladic this time.  Therefore, there was

15    communication at that level between General Nikolai and General Delic as

16    well as General Mladic.

17            In the first paragraph of the letter, it reads:  [In English] "In

18    response to your letter number 06/17-441 of 24 June 1995 with reports on

19    several attacks from the safe area of Srebrenica, I ordered an immediate

20    investigation.  That investigation made me recognise that at the times and

21    places mentioned in your letter, combat activities by BiH troops had

22    really occurred."

23            [Interpretation] You can see from the letter that General Nikolai

24    is confirming that those attacks had occurred and that there was an

25    investigation.  Do you have an explanation as to why this -- this was not

Page 19425

 1    known to you, since you were an UN monitor?

 2       A.   Your Honour, when you say that these things happened and I did not

 3    know, what there is is that when somebody these things are happening at

 4    higher levels, the generals' level and all that, sometimes it may not

 5    trickle down to us down there.  The fact is I was not informed of this

 6    kind of investigation.  I'm not aware of it; and if the results were made

 7    to anybody, or if the investigations were ordered by somebody, somewhere,

 8    their reports were made to somebody, somewhere.  I'm not aware of them.

 9            If these activities were happening at the general command level,

10    definitely they did not necessarily have to trickle down to us, maybe, but

11    I don't know why we were -- we were not informed.  And if we were to be

12    informed, it's -- it's not at a personal level.  It would have been at

13    UNMO level, maybe from UNMO headquarters all the way down to us, as a team

14    down there, and this did not happen at all.

15       Q.   Very well.  I'll move on.

16            I've already shown you a number of documents concerning the arming

17    of the units within the enclave, but I'd like to show you a footage now in

18    e-court just to explain to you.  According to our information, it was

19    taken on the 10th of July, 1995, in Srebrenica town itself.  We've

20    received that piece of information from the OTP, and we have no reason to

21    doubt it.  We have no reason to doubt that it was taken on that day.

22            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] It was -- it is 4D0014.

23                          [Videotape played]

24            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] We can stop now.

25       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, do you recognise the location where this

Page 19426

 1    footage was taken?

 2       A.   This should have been, according to what I saw, should have been

 3    in Srebrenica.

 4       Q.   We can see a gas station there.  If I remember correctly, since I

 5    visited it several times, it is right across the PTT building in

 6    Srebrenica; am I correct in saying that?

 7       A.   Yeah, yeah, you're correct.

 8       Q.   As I understood from your testimony, you said that on the 9th of

 9    July, that is, one day before that, you went to Srebrenica and Potocari

10    together with Major Tetteh.  On the 10th of July, you were not in

11    Srebrenica itself as this was taking place.  But you also told us that

12    your interpreter, Emir Suljagic, received an order for you -- from you to

13    go to Srebrenica and to report.

14            Since your interpreter was there at the time and informing you on

15    the Srebrenica events, did you receive any information that there was

16    mortar fire being opened on the town from Srebrenica itself on the Serb

17    positions?

18       A.   Your Honour, he did not tell us anything to do with that.  But

19    maybe on the 10th, maybe by the time the firing was taking place, I don't

20    know.  Maybe that is the time he had already left to come back to -- maybe

21    the timing, if you tell us the timings, I can know whether he had come

22    back to Potocari or not.

23            Also, it's worth noting that by this time, the BiH had already

24    taken some of the weapons from the Bravo Company, so this is a different

25    scenario altogether.  It's a different scenario altogether, as far as I

Page 19427

 1    can see.

 2       Q.   Yes, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I only want to know

 3    whether, in your sitreps, we can find any information that mortar shells

 4    are being fired by the Army of B and H from Srebrenica on the Serb

 5    positions and that such fire was being opened from the location of the gas

 6    station, or rather, right across the street from the PTT building, if you

 7    prefer that.

 8       A.   There was nothing like that in our reports.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  That's all I wanted to ask you.

10            We've already seen 4D0002.  It is the statement of Ramiz

11    Becirovic, and we agreed that you know him.  The date is the 11th of

12    August.  I would like to discuss some other parts of his statement.

13            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 4D0002 shown

14    in e-court.  Let us go to page 4 in the B/C/S and page 5 in the English,

15    please.

16       Q.   As you can see in the second paragraph from the top:  [In English]

17     "Agreements on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica, we had to disarm

18    completely.  We barely managed to secure some older weapons in disrepair

19    to hand over to UNPROFOR."

20            [Interpretation] Concerning your previous answer, Ramiz Becirovic

21    in his statement says that the weapons handed over to UNPROFOR were old

22    and dysfunctional; and on this footage, we could see a fully functional

23    mortar.

24            Did you know that at the time you were there all of the weapons

25    that had been handed over to UNPROFOR were actually inoperable and old?

Page 19428

 1       A.   No.  We were not checking the usability state of the weapons.

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like us now to go to page 12

 3    in the B/C/S and - excuse me - page 14 in the English, towards the middle

 4    of the page.

 5       Q.   As you can see, well, in answering Mr. Zivanovic's questions

 6    concerning the number of fighters and people who were members of the

 7    division, towards the middle of the page, it says:  [In English] "A column

 8    which sets out that evening was not established, but in my estimate there

 9    were between 10.000 and 15.000 people.  I had around 6.000 troops, without

10    counting the troops from Zepa."

11            [Interpretation] Do you have any reason to believe that Ramiz

12    Becirovic, who was Chief of Staff of the 28th Division, did not have 6.000

13    troops, excluding non-fighters and women?

14       A.   Your Honour, I think there's -- there's one thing we need maybe to

15    know.  Holding 10.000 to 15.000 troops in Srebrenica, as I said yesterday,

16    is a bit difficult.  A conventional force of ten to 15 thousand troops

17    definitely is -- it cannot be able to.  But what I am saying here is,

18    according to my own interpretation, war is fought from very many fronts,

19    very many fronts, and propaganda is one of them.

20            I'm not saying that this is propaganda, but when you are

21    communicating issues to other authorities, you may want to show how good

22    you are, how organised you are.  The opposite is also true, the others on

23    the other side who also try to do the same.

24            What am I trying to say here?  Ten thousand to 15 thousand

25    soldiers in an enclave, and especially where we were in Srebrenica itself,

Page 19429

 1    we could not have failed to notice that.

 2            This, you're saying, is between the 11th and 12th July?  11th and,

 3    I think, 12th of July.

 4       Q.   Colonel, I apologise.  You furnished us with the same answer

 5    yesterday, stating that you doubt the existence of those.  However,

 6    potentially, having in mind the number of men within the enclave and the

 7    rest, that figure could have been as high as this?

 8       A.   Would you maybe, if I may request, come up with a date?  What date

 9    is this?  Is it the 11th and 12th, so that I can continue?

10       Q.   Maybe this is the cause of our misunderstanding.  We are talking

11    about a column of men which were trying to break out towards Tuzla.  It is

12    Ramiz Becirovic's assessment that the column comprised ten to 15 thousand

13    people, out of which 6.000 were troops, soldiers.  That is the piece of

14    information that Ramiz Becirovic is furnishing here, saying that he had

15    6.000 soldiers at his disposal.

16            This is what is contained in that part of the statement.  This is

17    the 11th of July, in the afternoon, when the column started from Susnjari

18    towards Tuzla, trying to break out.

19       A.   Yeah.  It is possible, if each and every person -- if each and

20    every person was taken to be a soldier; and maybe even if you're given a

21    weapon, if you're given a gun and you become a soldier, yeah, it is

22    possible to get this number.  Especially, when you -- when you're escaping

23    and each and every one is armed, definitely, people in the enclave were

24    more than this.

25            But a conventional -- what I'm disputing is this.  A conventional

Page 19430

 1    force with 10.000 to 15.000 people, I can't contemplate it being able to

 2    be housed in Srebrenica.  But if, as I have just said, if you are going to

 3    say each and every person, each and every child who is above 15 or so

 4    years or so, you give him a gun and he becomes a soldier, each and every

 5    old man, I mean, it is possible because the people are there.

 6       Q.   Very well.  I won't press any further, but I'd like to go back to

 7    a question I had already posed.

 8            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let us please go to page 17 in the

 9    English.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic, one moment.

11            Colonel, we are not actually talking at any time here of a

12    conventional army of between ten to 15 thousand people.  I think that was

13    made clear to you by Mr. Lazarevic, and it is clear from the document

14    itself, that ten to 15 thousand people are basically the number of people

15    that made the column or composed the column.  When it comes to troops,

16    what Becirovic is saying here that, not counting the troops from Zepa, he

17    had around 6.000 troops.

18            Now, I have heard what you had to say yesterday and what you

19    basically repeated again today.  What's not clear in my mind is how you

20    can reconcile the possibility of there being 6.000 individuals who are

21    given a weapon and all of a sudden they become soldiers, so to say, with

22    what you maintained yesterday, saying that the amount of weapons in

23    Srebrenica was minimal or almost nonexistent.

24            If they could arm, give a weapon to 6.000 people, what do you have

25    to say about that?

Page 19431

 1            THE WITNESS:  I mean, 6.000 people, as far as I can see here, is

 2    not necessarily giving each and every person a gun.  It could be a weapon,

 3    any kind of weapon, any kind of weapon.  Like, if there is a pistol, a

 4    pistol is not a weapon that one can go fight with.  Forming a section is

 5    really not necessarily that each and every person has to have a gun.

 6            You know, there's no reason -- there's no clear indication that we

 7    are getting from this letter that these 6.000 were armed.  They can be

 8    troops, but not armed.  They can be called troops, but not necessarily

 9    armed.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead, Mr. Lazarevic.  I'm not going to

11    ask him any further questions myself.

12            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   One more thing concerning your statement.  I'd like to have your

14    comment about it.  At page 17 in the English, in the third paragraph, it

15    reads:  [In English] "... Command was located in the area of the old town

16    and the hunters social centre."

17            [Interpretation] Is this not consistent with the document I have

18    shown you recently, where Ramiz Becirovic says that the Division Command

19    was in the Lovac facility, as we can see from this document as

20    well, "Lovac" meaning "hunter" in B/C/S?

21       A.   Your Honour, I didn't see where you read because it was not shown.

22            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] It's on page 17, third paragraph.

23       Q.   It's the paragraph starts with, "Throughout these developments,"

24    and the next sentence says:  "The Division Command was located in the area

25    of the old town and the hunters' social centre ..."

Page 19432

 1            It's the second sentence in the third paragraph of.

 2       A.   I can see it.

 3       Q.   [Interpretation] Is this consistent with what we saw earlier in

 4    another document, where it states that the 28th Division Command was

 5    there?

 6       A.   Your Honour, there's something I did -- I did not know, that the

 7    headquarters was located in that place.

 8       Q.   Very well.  Let us move on to another topic.

 9            On the 10th of July, you were already at the base in Potocari; and

10    according to the information we have, and according to numerous evidence

11    before this Chamber, by that time a great many people -- a great many

12    people started leaving Srebrenica towards Potocari and they began

13    assembling around the base.  Is it correct or not?

14       A.   It is correct, because they are streaming into Potocari and

15    Srebrenica itself.

16       Q.   Thank you.  The very next day, on the 11th of July, the Serb

17    forces entered the town of Srebrenica, which by that time was empty.

18    People had already left.  Does that tally with what you could see at the

19    time?

20       A.   The entry of the Serbs mainly was from the -- the Bratunac side;

21    that is, going via Potocari all the way up towards Srebrenica.  This

22    happened that day, so they entered from the Bratunac side.  So the ones we

23    are talking about, from entering Srebrenica from anywhere else, we were

24    not aware at that particular moment.

25       Q.   Very well.  Perhaps this does not correspond fully to the data I

Page 19433

 1    have.  But if this is your testimony and your knowledge, I have nothing to

 2    observe.  However, I'm interested in the following --

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

 4            Where were you, exactly, on the 11th of July when the Bosnian

 5    Serbs or VRS forces entered Srebrenica?

 6            THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, on the 11th, I was in Potocari,

 7    Dutch-Bat compound.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  So you couldn't see what was happening on the other

 9    side of Srebrenica?

10            THE WITNESS:  That's correct, that's what I said.  I did not see

11    what was happening on the other side, but I saw now the entry from the

12    Bratunac side.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I think that's clear enough.  I mean, he

14    is not contradicting any other evidence there may be.

15            JUDGE KWON:  But, Mr. Kingori, you said, didn't you, that Serbs

16    went to Srebrenica from the Bratunac side via Potocari?

17            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.  Because I was in

18    Potocari, I could see them going towards Srebrenica from that side.

19            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   In any case, you arrived in Potocari from Srebrenica.  That was

22    the route you took, Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar, on the 9th?

23       A.   The direction we took was from Srebrenica down towards Potocari;

24    and Zeleni Jadar, I don't remember.  I mean, we were not going towards

25    that direction.  Zeleni Jadar, I think, is in exactly the opposite

Page 19434

 1    direction.

 2       Q.   I apologise.  It was a mistake in the transcript or I may have

 3    misspoken, in which case I apologise.  I'm asking these questions for the

 4    following reason:  Do you know who it was that decided, for the people

 5    from Srebrenica who were there on the 10th, to take the same route you did

 6    for Potocari?

 7       A.   Well, as far as I know, there's nobody who told them, but it's

 8    common sense that the safer place was now towards where the UNPROFOR is.

 9    It's common sense, so I think that is -- that is exactly what they

10    followed.  Even ourselves, that is the route we followed.  We found that

11    we would be safer when we are, all of us, together in one particular

12    place, and especially when we are in a battalion headquarter where there

13    is a bit of defence and where the BSA would think twice before -- before

14    hitting, because at least they know we are there.

15            There's nothing we are going to do to them, and that is a safer

16    place.  That is why these -- the Muslims also maybe thought that is wiser,

17    to go towards that direction, where they think they have safety and

18    security.

19       Q.   So if I understand your answer correctly, since it was quite a

20    lengthy one, you say that no one actually took the decision to go from

21    Srebrenica to the Potocari base.  It was just a reasonable line of

22    thinking that made those people go there; is that your evidence?

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

24            Mr. Thayer.

25            MR. THAYER:  It's asked and answered, Mr. President.

Page 19435

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I think so.

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Fine.  Let us, please, go back to

 3    Ramiz Becirovic's statement, 4D02, page 12.  We've spoken about this

 4    already a lot already.  Page 12 in the English.

 5            [In English] Can we scroll it down a bit just to make sure the

 6    witness can see the lower part.

 7       Q.   [Interpretation] You see, towards the bottom of this page, there's

 8    the word "UNPROFOR."

 9            This is five or six lines from the bottom:  [In English] "That

10    UNPROFOR soldiers were directing the inhabitants to Potocari.  When I

11    asked why, I was told that they, too, had the intention of moving on to

12    Potocari."

13            [Interpretation] Did you know anything to indicate that UNPROFOR

14    soldiers were sending people from Srebrenica to Potocari or telling them

15    to go there?

16       A.   No.  I did not have such information at all.

17       Q.   Thank you.  My next question is very similar.

18            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] But can we please just move on to

19    page 14 of the English, the top of the page.  It's the same document.

20       Q.   Again, I will ask you this:  Did you know about this?  You see,

21    the second sentence from the top of the page:  [In English] "I ordered the

22    signalmen to go out on the hill and establish communication with the Corps

23    Command.  We remained behind and determined the manner of movement, the

24    sequence of units, security methods, and reconnoitering.  At the rear, the

25    column would head towards Tuzla.

Page 19436

 1            "The order was issued that the entire civilian population located

 2    there set off, but they were free to decide whether they would go with us

 3    or head towards UNPROFOR."

 4            [Interpretation] Did you have information to the effect that the

 5    population from Srebrenica had been ordered to go to Potocari by the Corps

 6    Command?  Did you know about that?  A simple "yes" or "no" will do,

 7    please.  There's no need to go any further into this.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 9            MR. THAYER:  But, Mr. President, I just don't think that's what's

10    represented in the plain language of the document, as I read it.  It

11    appears that they were given a choice.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

13            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Yes, I can -- I can understand.  They

14    had a choice whether to go to Potocari or to go through the woods, but not

15    to make any other decisions, because here it says the order was issued

16    that the entire civilian population located there set off, and that was my

17    question.  They are free to decide whether they would go "with us,"

18    meaning with the army through the woods, or head towards UNPROFOR.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead and answer the question, please,

20    Colonel.

21            THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, it's clearly indicated here that they

22    were not forced to go to any direction.  They were free to either follow

23    these guys to the -- towards Tuzla or go to -- to Potocari.  They were

24    free to make their own choice.

25            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19437

 1       Q.   This document shows clearly that there was no third option for

 2    them; namely, to stay where they were.  That was not an option, was it?

 3       A.   Your Honour, it's not indicated here, but that does not mean that

 4    it was not there.  Only that, as I said earlier, if I may have to repeat

 5    it, their direction towards -- they had to move to a safe place.  The

 6    issue here is safety and security, safety and security.  And if it were

 7    me, definitely I would have moved towards Potocari because I could believe

 8    that it was more secure and safer.

 9       Q.   Very well.  Let us just clarify one thing.  In essence, you've

10    answered the question already, but let's just dispel any doubts that may

11    remain.

12            Did you, and I mean the UNMOs, the Dutch-Bat Command

13    representatives of military or civilian authorities, have any sort of

14    meeting about what would become of the civilians should they go, should

15    they stay, if they were going, where would they be going to?  Did you

16    discuss anything like that during your meeting?

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

18            MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, if we could just have a time frame for

19    this, because these decisions were potentially taken at different

20    locations at different times for different reasons.

21            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] By all means, by all means.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

23            Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

24            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   The time period that I have in mind would be, roughly speaking,

Page 19438

 1    somewhere around the 8th and 9th, the 10th, possibly the 11th of July,

 2    over those four days.  Because we know that on the 11th of July, or by the

 3    11th of July, the population of Srebrenica had moved to Potocari already.

 4            Were there any debate in those days as to what the civilians would

 5    be doing?  Would they be going, would they be staying, and I mean of

 6    course in terms of your own personal experience, attending any such

 7    meetings, sir?

 8       A.   Your Honour, what there is is that we had no meeting to discuss or

 9    even direct the people to go to any place.  That was not discussed

10    anywhere that they would go directly towards a certain direction.  In

11    fact, what really happened is that when the people started streaming

12    towards Srebrenica, we realised that it's becoming an issue, that many

13    people are going towards there.  But there was no meeting that I can

14    recall that we discussed where these people were to go.

15            The only thing we did is when they came in and they filled the

16    whole Dutch-Bat compound, that is, that whole factory, we decided that,

17    for the rest, we would place them next to the road just short of the

18    Potocari Dutch-Bat compound.  But on where they were to be taken, I mean,

19    the direction they were to take from Srebrenica, we never had such a

20    meeting that I can recall.

21       Q.   Very well.  Thank you very much.

22            I would like to see another short video clip.  You may be able to

23    identify a number of faces from Srebrenica.

24            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] This is P02047 from Srebrenica.

25    The footage was taken on the 10th of July, 1995.

Page 19439

 1       Q.   I would like to show you that particular portion of the footage,

 2    and we'll stop at a certain point.

 3                          [Videotape played]

 4            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Stop here.

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] This is the 10th of July, 1995 footage from

 6    Potocari.  You saw the subtitles and you could follow what was being said

 7    in the footage.

 8            My apologies.  This is Srebrenica, not Potocari.  I seem to have

 9    misspoken again.  The footage was taken at Srebrenica on the 10th of July.

10            You saw a man there saying, and the subtitles reflected

11    that, "They are forcing us to go to Potocari.  Block the road."  He is now

12    addressing the civilians.

13            Can you tell us who this man could have had in mind when he

14    said, "They are forcing us to go to Potocari"?  Why was he addressing the

15    people there, asking them to block the road?  What can you tell us about

16    that?

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

18            MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, without some further foundation, I think

19    this question really just calls for a sheer speculation as to why somebody

20    might be doing something.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's move to your next question,

22    Mr. Lazarevic.

23            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Fine.  Let me just finish this.

24       Q.   At any rate, on the 10th of July, in the town of Srebrenica

25    itself, there are no Serb soldiers, not yet.  Can you confirm that?

Page 19440

 1       A.   Your Honour, there is no Serb soldiers at that time in Srebrenica.

 2       Q.   Yes, and it seems to follow from that that the Serb Army could not

 3    possibly have been the one to order anyone to leave Srebrenica, which is

 4    what seems to follow from your answer.  Would that seem to be a fact, sir?

 5       A.   I don't know whether it would be towards something there.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can safely go to your next question.

 7    Mr. Lazarevic, when you realise that a witness knows next to nothing on a

 8    particular event or on a particular chapter in the events that we're

 9    talking about, and you have and we have other evidence that we have heard,

10    why waste your time on him?  So at the end of the day, what is he going to

11    tell you?

12            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'll move on to

13    something else.

14            Can we please have P0009.

15       Q.   You see, Colonel, this is a letter written by the president of the

16    Presidency, Osman Suljic, and we know that you know who he was.  He was

17    the president of the Presidency of Srebrenica Municipality.  He sent this

18    letter on the 7th of July, 1995, to President Ramiz Becirovic and the

19    General of the Army, General Rasim Delic.

20            We can see the date on the face of this document.  If you look at

21    the lower half of the document, you will be going through the entire

22    document, but the portion that I'm interested in is the paragraph where it

23    reads:  "The civilian authorities were left with the last unpopular step

24    of saving the population.  It is stressed that a meeting at the level of

25    state and military organs of the RBH should organised with the aggressor

Page 19441

 1    side with the aim at fighting and possibility to open a corridor to be

 2    used by the population to move to the nearest free territory of the RBH

 3    under the control of the international players."

 4            This document was produced by Osman Suljic. It's a letter that he

 5    wrote.  Can we use this to infer that as early as the 9th of July, 1995,

 6    the possibility was reviewed of moving the entire civilian population out

 7    of the Srebrenica enclave, and that, in fact, this is something that was

 8    done by the local authorities?

 9       A.   Your Honour, this happened, or this letter is written, though the

10    time is not indicated, on the 9th of July.  This is the date we left

11    Srebrenica.  That's the time we left the PTT building for Potocari . And

12    as it is indicated in my statement, at this time these people felt very

13    insecure, after we gave our intention to depart from Srebrenica to

14    Potocari.  That insecurity may have caused a lot of panic, which is true,

15    and definitely they did not know where else to go, who else to talk to,

16    and maybe even the ultimate place where they would be headed for.

17            This letter, as you can see, I think it was one out of

18    desperation, where the president did not know what else to do with the

19    population.  But he's saying that they may find a possibility to open a

20    corridor for the population to move to the nearest free territory; that

21    is, to ensure that the people are safe.

22            In essence, the -- the way we should be looking at this issue is

23    that the enclave had already been encroached by the Bosnian Serb Army, and

24    this was from all sides, almost all sides.  It's like the Muslims were

25    being crushed in one place, sort of, and they had now to look for a

Page 19442

 1    possible exist from the problems that they were already in, the

 2    bombardment, the harassment, and the possible decimation by the BSA,

 3    because these guys were really pounding on Srebrenica in a way that they

 4    really do not want anyone to -- I mean, they wanted the whole enclave, all

 5    the people inside there, either to be -- to be killed or to vacate, one of

 6    them, and it is indicated even in my statement.

 7            So what I'm trying to say here is that they had to look a safe way

 8    out, they had to look for a safe way out, not necessarily because of their

 9    own will to leave the enclave, but because they are forced by

10    circumstances under which the bombardment was happening.  They were being

11    bombarded, and they were left with no option but to try to escape from

12    this place. Otherwise, they would be killed all of them together.

13       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I would like to ask you something, though.

14    My question was a very simple one.  Basically, it would have elicited a

15    yes-or-no answer.  It is not my intention to offend you or to interrupt

16    any of the answers you think to provide, although it is, as it happens,

17    filled with speculation and mere assumptions.  But can we please just try

18    to wrap this up as quickly and expeditiously as possible.  Otherwise, I

19    will not be able to comply with my remit here, and I will be leaving no

20    time for my learned friends from the other Defence teams.  Please bear

21    this in mind for the benefit of the Chamber and all the other Defence

22    teams, if you can.

23            Now I'll continue to follow the timeline of your statement to the

24    OTP.  This is page 8 of the B/C/S version and the English version as well.

25            You testified that on the 11th of July, 1995, a meeting was held

Page 19443

 1    which you personally did not attend.  The meeting was held between General

 2    Mladic and Colonel Karremans, but you clearly state that you don't

 3    remember who called that meeting, who asked for that meeting.  Was it the

 4    VRS or Colonel Karremans, you're not sure.  You remember that portion of

 5    your statement to the OTP, do you not, sir?

 6       A.   Yes, I do.

 7       Q.   Now I'd like us again to look at some footage which might be able

 8    to jog your memory a little.  You'll watch it in e-court now, and you will

 9    hear what those two participants had to say.

10                          [Videotape played]

11            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12       Q.   So you heard General Mladic ask Karremans what he wanted.  He

13    says, "You called the meeting, you asked for the meeting."  Would this jog

14    your memory?  Would this help you remember who was the first to ask for a

15    meeting, and I'm referring to the meeting that was eventually held on the

16    11th at the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac?

17       A.   I wish you would play it again.  I can't give the voice to

18    whichever person, so --

19       Q.   Let me tell you this, sir.  We do have a transcript of this

20    exchange.

21            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]  This is P02048, and it's page 16.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  I wouldn't like to interrupt you, but again, where

23    do you think are you going to get?  Where do you think you're getting? You

24    have the tape and you have Mladic speaking and saying.  Is his testimony

25    going to change anything?

Page 19444

 1            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I was only trying to --

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  But at the end of the day, even if he told you, "No,

 3    it was Mladic who was at the meeting," is it going to change anything?

 4    What Mladic says on the tape is what he says, I mean, so I don't know.

 5            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, yes, Your Honour, maybe I don't -- I really

 6    don't need to insist on this, of course.  However, I notice that the

 7    witness couldn't remember certain details, and this was just for the

 8    purpose to refresh his memory.  However, I can skip to something else.

 9    But then I will first ask the witness -- of course, he wasn't present

10    there, but I will ask him only one question in this respect.

11       Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, sir, were I to tell you that the issue

12    of moving the refugees who were at Potocari to Tuzla territory was first

13    raised by Colonel Karremans, were I to tell you that he was the first to

14    bring this up with Mladic and ask him to talk on behalf of the civilians

15    in Potocari about moving them to Tuzla, would that be consistent with what

16    you actually witnessed there?

17       A.   Your Honour, if you go back to my statement, you will see that I

18    indicated that there is a time that I talked to General Ratko Mladic, and

19    the plan was if the civilians, because now the UN had to move and General

20    Mladic had already indicated that the UN must leave that place, where were

21    the civilians to go to, then we said that, and I remember I'm the one who

22    told General Mladic, that the UN would prepare to evacuate, to remove the

23    people from there because they cannot be left there.  They would not be

24    safe.  They will not be -- is it working?  Yeah. They will not be safe in

25    that place.

Page 19445

 1            So when I asked him, when I told him that it is the intention of

 2    the UN to remove the people from there, to provide buses, the general said

 3    that he's already been able to get his own buses.  He will get his own

 4    buses and bring them over, to pick the people from Srebrenica itself.

 5       Q.   Colonel, it is not my intention to interrupt you, but I do have

 6    the questions here about that.  I just wanted to follow the timeline and

 7    then sort of link these up.  I promise that I'll be asking you further

 8    questions about the meeting and what you said to Mladic at the time.

 9            My intention was to ask you whether you, in fact, knew that

10    Colonel Karremans was the first to raise this, but you weren't there,

11    yourself; therefore, I'm not pressing the matter.

12            I'd like us to look at something else now.  This is a document

13    that you produced.  It's an UNMO report dated the 11th of July, 1995,

14    Attachment 16 to your statement.

15            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] This is P00510.

16       Q.   So you have that in front of you, don't you?

17       A.   Yes, I do.  It's dated the 11th of July, 1995.

18       Q.   Indeed.  To the extent that I can see, it was dispatched at 1745

19    hours; right?

20       A.   Yeah, it was.

21       Q.   At paragraph 2, in the last line of this report, it says:  [In

22    English] "... Tuzla is a possibility in the coming days."

23            [Interpretation] At that right, sir, that's what it says, doesn't

24    it?

25       A.   Where did you read that, para 2?

Page 19446

 1       Q.   [In English] It's second paragraph, last sentence: "... Movement

 2    out of the enclave."

 3       A.   You're saying the refugees are moving to the northern part of the

 4    enclave and the food situation is becoming critical?  I don't know where

 5    that is on.

 6       Q.   Yes, and next sentence?

 7       A.  "The movement out of enclave towards Tuzla region is a possibility

 8    in the coming days."

 9       Q.   Yes, that's the one I'm referring to.

10            [Interpretation] Can you confirm that that's what the sitrep says,

11    the one that left at 1745; right?

12       A.   Yes, Your Honour.  This is an UNMO assessment.

13       Q.   Thank you very much.  Believe me, there's nothing tricky about

14    this.

15            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Should we take a break?  I mean, it's

16    10.30.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we'll have a 25-minute break.

18                          --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

19                          --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau, having followed cross-examination of

21    Mr. Lazarevic of over two hours already, how much time do you think you

22    will need?

23            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, one hour and a half,

24    I think.  I'm ready to make an effort if we must finish with the witness

25    today.

Page 19447

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  We must.  I said that loud and clear yesterday.

 2            Mr. Josse?

 3            MR. JOSSE:  I really would like my hour and a half as well, Your

 4    Honour.  The -- could I make this remark?  I'd rather have done it in the

 5    absence of the witness.  But since I addressed the Court very briefly

 6    yesterday, I've had an opportunity to look at a document that he brought

 7    to The Hague, which was disclosed on Tuesday, and I would like to ask him

 8    about it at some length.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Josse.

10            Mr. Lazarevic, how long --

11                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  How much more time do you think you require,

13    Mr. Lazarevic?

14            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honour, during this break, I

15    really looked at the questions that I prepared, and I deleted a large

16    number of questions from my list.  However, we are progressing relatively

17    slowly, I have to admit this, and --

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's certainly not the Trial Chamber's fault.

19            MR. LAZAREVIC:  I'm going to need -- yes, of course, and I really

20    was doing my best to organise my questions in order to speed up things,

21    but it's very difficult with --

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah.  You have to conclude in ten minutes,

23    Mr. Lazarevic.  You've been already two hours and a half, so you have ten

24    minutes, and the rest of the time needs to be divided between you,

25    Mr. Josse and Ms. Fauveau.

Page 19448

 1            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honour, can I please confer for one minute

 2    with Madame Fauveau and Mr. Josse, because --

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 4                          [Defence counsel confer]

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, and you have re-examination?

 6            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, right now I have very limited

 7    re-examination, but considering that we've got what I anticipate to be two

 8    substantial cross-examinations, I may need a few more minutes, based on

 9    some of the questions that are asked.  I just can't predict that, but I

10    will need some perhaps 15 minutes, I would say.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Meek.

12            MR. MEEK:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13            We had originally put an hour down and we reserved 30 minutes, so

14    we certainly are not waiving that.

15            MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, if the Trial Chamber are saying the

16    witness has to be finished today, then clearly that's a decision and we'll

17    all have to abide by it.  But if the witness is going to go over to

18    Monday, then, in my submission, there is no point doing this with unseemly

19    haste, particularly bearing in mind how this trial has proceeded hitherto.

20    I say that with the greatest of respect.

21            But if it's going to end today, then clearly there won't be time

22    for any re-examination and we will -- we will all tailor our

23    cross-examinations accordingly, if that's the order of the Court.  But if

24    not, then, as I say, there is no point, to use the same expression, doing

25    this with unseemly haste, in my submission.

Page 19449

 1                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  What we will do is the following:  You'll have 20

 3    more minutes, Mr. Lazarevic.  Mr. Josse and Ms. Fauveau, you will have one

 4    hour each.  You will have 15 minutes for re-examination, which means we

 5    won't be able to finish by quarter to 2:00, which ultimately means that we

 6    will reconvene in this same courtroom at a quarter past 2.00 and continue

 7    from there.  All right?

 8            Yes, 20 minutes, Mr. Lazarevic.

 9            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honour, if you could please issue

10    an instruction to the witness just to answer with short answers, if

11    possible, of course, because otherwise I don't know how to proceed.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Actually, I will do two things.  I will do that.

13            Witness, please try to be concise as much as you can in your

14    answers, and you, Mr. Lazarevic, please avoid long-winded questions or

15    going around in circles when you can put a very straightforward question,

16    because that is what has been happening today and yesterday.

17            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I will obey to this ruling.

18       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, Colonel, we saw the sitrep already and

19    when it was sent.  Can you confirm to me that the issue of evacuation of

20    the refugees was discussed and arranged before Colonel Karremans met with

21    General Mladic at 8.00 in the evening that day?  Please answer with a

22     "yes" or "no."

23       A.   There's no indication that that was discussed.

24       Q.   Very well.  In the report, it says: [In English] "Movement out of

25    the enclave is a possibility in the coming days."

Page 19450

 1            [Interpretation] That is what I had in mind concerning to that

 2    part of sitrep.  Does that change your answer in any way?

 3       A.   Your Honour, it does not, because this is an assessment by the

 4    SMO.  An assessment is not necessarily coming out of a meeting.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Let us move on to the arrival of Serb forces in

 6    Potocari.

 7            You've testified before this Chamber that according to what you

 8    could see, the first soldiers to enter Potocari wore black uniforms.  They

 9    were followed by others, by other soldiers in different uniforms.

10            Testifying in the Krstic trial, you said that a group of soldiers

11    entered the base to check whether there were any BiH soldiers inside.  You

12    also said that you knew some of those people and that one of them was

13    Major Nikolic; your interpreter, Petar; and Colonel Vukovic, and that the

14    whole thing lasted for about a quarter of an hour.  Do you stand by your

15    answer?

16       A.   Yes, I do.

17       Q.   In your statement to the Prosecutor and your testimony so far, I

18    understood that you knew Major Nikolic from earlier.  It is the person we

19    know by the name of "Momir Nikolic," just to confirm; is that correct?

20       A.   The person I know is the one we were calling "Major Nikolic."  I

21    don't know the other names.

22       Q.   Very well.  In your statement, this Major Nikolic, at page 3 in

23    the B/C/S and the same page in the English, you described him as

24    follows:  "Major Nikolic was the commander of the local unit of the BSA.

25    He at least presented himself as the commander."

Page 19451

 1            [Interpretation] Can you confirm that here today as well?

 2       A.   Yes.  He told us that is the local commander of the BSA in that

 3    area.

 4       Q.   You saw Major Nikolic in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th of

 5    July; is that correct?

 6       A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   Let us move on to the 13th of July.  According to your statement

 8    to the Prosecutor at page 10, you say that the evacuation of the

 9    population from Potocari began on the 13th of July, around 7.00 a.m.  Can

10    you confirm that here today?

11       A.   Yeah.  I can't see a copy of the statement, but I think that is

12    the date started.

13       Q.   Very well.  My learned friend, Mr. Prosecutor, can verify that,

14    whether I quoted it precisely.

15            Another thing concerning this issue:  On the 13th of July, 1995,

16    did the evacuation process begin prior to the arrival of the Serb forces

17    in Potocari?  Did the members of the Dutch-Bat initiate evacuation alone,

18    without the presence of any Serb forces, on the 13th of July?

19       A.   That is not true.

20       Q.   If I told you that there is testimony here of a Dutch soldier who

21    participated in it and who said that they, themselves, initiated the

22    evacuation, would that change your answer?

23       A.   Your Honour, it will not, because I saw it.  I saw the evacuation,

24    I was there as a military observer, and I know what I saw and witnessed.

25       Q.   In your statement --

Page 19452

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

 2            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just to clarify the previous statement

 3    with respect to the evacuation starting at 0700 on the 13th, I have read

 4    the reference in the witness statement and I would just ask my friend to

 5    make a clarification and actually read the portion of the statement,

 6    because it is slightly different and it may make a difference.  I don't

 7    want there to be any confusion on the record, and I can just state it.

 8            It says:  "The next day, 13 July, the evacuation resumed at 0700,"

 9    and I think the question was "The evacuation started."  I just didn't want

10    there to be any lack of clarity about when it happened.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, that's clear.

12            Mr. Lazarevic.

13            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I'm fine with what my colleague said.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, so let's move on to your next question.

15            MR. LAZAREVIC:  I said it in B/C/S.  This is why it occurred.

16       Q.   [Interpretation] I understood that on the 13th, at a certain point

17    in time, you left Potocari for Srebrenica and then returned, whereupon you

18    met Major Nikolic at the base on the 13th.  Is that correct?

19       A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

20       Q.   If I understood correctly, if I understood the gist of your

21    testimony, those who were evacuated first were those who were outside the

22    base in Potocari; and after that phase of evacuation was completed, only

23    then the people who were within the base at Potocari were evacuated.  Is

24    that correct?

25       A.   That's correct.

Page 19453

 1       Q.   Testifying before this Tribunal on the 14th of December, you,

 2    talking about the sitrep of the 12th of July, said that there were some

 3    10.000 refugees within the base and some 20.000 without the base,

 4    explaining that in the building of the base itself, there were some 5.000

 5    people, and an additional 5.000 within the general compound, a wider area

 6    of the base.  Do you remember having said that?

 7       A.   I really do not remember it getting as such, because generally

 8    those who were inside the -- the compound were five -- you know, around

 9    5.000 or so; and those outside, the ones who were 20.  But the figure

10    inside could have been between 5.000 and 7.000, somewhere there.  I'm not

11    trying to contradict.  I'm just saying the possibility of it being that

12    figure.  But there was no inside, the workshop, that is, the main building

13    and outside.

14       Q.   Very well.  In order for the Chamber to have a clearer picture of

15    the situation, I wanted to show a short footage so that we could see the

16    actual area.  It is a footage made by one of the members of the Dutch-Bat.

17                          [Videotape played]

18            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, you can stop there.

19       Q.   Can you make out the facilities we saw in this short footage?

20       A.   Yes, I can.

21            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I wanted to

22    say that we saw the footage from 000104 to 00010 --

23            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  001010.

24            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] ... some six seconds in the

25    footage.

Page 19454

 1       Q.   You can see from here the Dutch base; is that correct?

 2       A.   That's correct.

 3       Q.   To the right of the entrance, there is a Dutch observation post;

 4    is that correct?

 5       A.   That's correct.

 6       Q.   In the left-hand corner of the screen, we can see the building

 7    which you termed "the white house" in your testimony; is that correct?

 8       A.   That's correct.

 9       Q.   Were you present when the evacuation began, the evacuation of

10    those who were within the compound of Dutch-Bat; that is to say, at the

11    outset?

12       A.   I don't -- I don't get the question, Your Honour.

13       Q.   I'll repeat.  When people began being evacuated from the base,

14    were you present there at the very beginning of the evacuation from the

15    base or had you gone to Srebrenica by that time?

16       A.   By the time the evacuation started from inside the base I was, I

17    was around there.

18       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  That is what I wanted to hear.

19            When the evacuation began from the base, you saw Major Nikolic

20    there; is that correct?

21       A.   That's true, Major Nikolic was there.

22       Q.   He had a list in his hands with certain names.  He said that those

23    people, in his belief, were war criminals, according to the information

24    the Bratunac Brigade had at the time?

25       A.   Yeah, he had a list.  He had a list that he was checking through.

Page 19455

 1       Q.   Having in mind the still before us, we can see that the white

 2    house is close to the entrance, and the men leaving the base had to cross

 3    the road and make their way to the white house.

 4            I apologise, I apologise.  It should have read "across the road

 5    from the entrance of the base."

 6       A.   Your Honour, I don't get what you mean, because for the people to

 7    get inside that white house, the people who were going there are the ones

 8    who are being collected from outside.

 9       Q.   The people, the men who were inside the base were leaving through

10    the gate, by the way of the entrance we can see here.  What I wanted to

11    ask you is this:  When they crossed the road, they immediately come up to

12    the white house.  They are being sent there, those which had been taken?

13       A.   Your Honour, I have not stated anywhere that those from inside the

14    base were taken to the white house.  There is nowhere that I've stated

15    that, because I did not see them being taken to the white house from

16    inside the compound.  The ones I talked about were the ones who were being

17    picked from outside the compound to the white house.

18       Q.   Very well.  I'll move on to my next question.

19            Were you familiar with the fact that inside the base, a list was

20    made of men who were inside the base?  Major Franken provided a sheet of

21    paper on which the list of men who were inside the base were included.

22    Did you know of that?

23       A.   What I know -- what I knew about was that Major Nikolic was coming

24    through with a list and checking from amongst the men who were there, who

25    corresponded with the name and whatever he had in his list.  That's what I

Page 19456

 1    know.

 2       Q.   Therefore, you don't know of the Franken list, the list comprising

 3    the Muslims who were inside the base itself?  You don't know anything

 4    about that?

 5       A.   Your Honour, I do not know.

 6       Q.   Very well.

 7            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the document -- or

 8    rather, the footage that we saw is 4D131.

 9       Q.   Answering Mr. Zivanovic's questions, you mentioned Hasan

10    Nuhanovic, who was your interpreter.  At page 11 of your statement to the

11    Prosecution, in both the English and the B/C/S version, you said that

12    Hasan Nuhanovic asked you to sign a document in which it was stated that

13    his family left the base on the 13th of July, having been ordered to do so

14    by the Dutch officers.  However, you don't know whether they indeed left

15    and under what circumstances.

16            Do you still stand by what you said, that you were not present

17    when Mr. Nuhanovic's family left the base in Potocari?

18       A.   Your Honour, I still stand by that.

19            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to show another footage,

20    please.  It is 4D00132.  For the record, it begins with 004226 to 004330.

21                          [Videotape played]

22            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] We can stop here.

23       Q.   Is this Hasan Nuhanovic?

24       A.   Yes, Your Honour, he is.

25       Q.   You could see the English subtitles, and Hasan Nuhanovic says that

Page 19457

 1    three Dutch-Bat soldiers, together with three UNMOs that he used to be

 2    interpreter to, arrived, and he was told that his family had to leave the

 3    base area in Potocari.  Is what Hasan Nuhanovic said correct?

 4       A.   Your Honour, it's not correct.

 5       Q.   Just to be completely clear about this, three UNMOs.  I'm not

 6    saying it's true, what Hasan Nuhanovic said, but let us try and identify

 7    those three people.  It is you, Major Dehan, and Major Tetteh.  Those were

 8    the only three UNMOs who were in Srebrenica at the time; isn't that so?

 9       A.   Your Honour, what I mean is that, myself, I never witnessed that.

10    I was not there on whatever he is talking about.  So as far as I'm

11    concerned, it did not happen.  I did not see it.  I was not there.

12       Q.   Very well.  According to your statement at page 11 of both the

13    English and the B/C/S, you said that the entire evacuation was completed

14    on the 13th, in the afternoon; and that, after that, a delegation

15    comprising senior officers inspected the complex, among whom you

16    recognised Major Nikolic and Colonel Acamovic.

17            Colonel Acamovic introduced himself as a special envoy or

18    representative of General Mladic, in charge of the evacuation.  Do you

19    stand by that answer?

20       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

21       Q.   Another thing:  You were there when the evacuation was completed.

22    Was there a large pile, a heap of clothes, discarded clothes, that

23    belonged to the people who had been evacuated from the base?

24       A.   Your Honour, there were clothes, and the ones I talked about in my

25    statement are the ones left outside the white house, after those detained

Page 19458

 1    in the white house left.  That is one that I talked about.

 2       Q.   Very well.  However, I'm asking you about the base area.  Was

 3    there a heap of clothes there as well?

 4       A.   Your Honour, inside the base area, I never noticed a heap of

 5    clothes or anything, only that there were -- it was littered with a lot of

 6    dark papers everywhere.  It was littered with a lot of things.  But a heap

 7    of clothes like witnessed, you know, outside the white house, I did not

 8    see it myself.

 9       Q.   Very well.  Referring to Major Nikolic in the Krstic case, on the

10    13th of July, it is page --

11            THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please repeat the page

12    reference.

13            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I apologise to the interpreters.

14            [Interpretation] I am referring to 1874 and 1875, the pages of the

15    transcript in the Krstic trial.

16       Q.   It has to do with the events of the 13th of July, and I will read

17    it in English, that is, your answer concerning Major Nikolic: [In English]

18     "He was there almost throughout."

19            [Interpretation] Let me say that you saw him in and outside the

20    Dutch-Bat base; right?

21       A.   That's right.

22            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honours, I believe that I need,

23    literally, five to ten more minutes.  There is nothing more.  This has

24    speeded up, and, really, I think that all these questions that I have are

25    highly relevant to the indictment and deal with particular charges.

Page 19459

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  You will have seven minutes, seven minutes, not a

 2    second more.

 3            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you.  Your Honour is very generous.

 4       Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, Colonel, I would like to ask you

 5    specifically about OPs.  I came across certain references in sitreps to

 6    you reporting on Dutch-Bat OPs.  I want to know about Observation Post

 7    Papa.  That's what your reports reflect, even up to which point in time

 8    Papa OP was being used.

 9            Up until which point in time did the Dutch-Bat people remain

10    there, and when did they withdraw from their OP to the one near the yellow

11    bridge?

12       A.   Your Honour, I think that was the last OP to be -- for the

13    Dutch-Bat to evacuate.

14       Q.   Fine.  Thank you.  Of course, you can't pinpoint the date for us,

15    can you?

16       A.   I cannot.  I cannot remember the actual dates.

17       Q.   Thank you very much.

18            On the 13th and 14th of December, you gave evidence before this

19    Chamber.  This is 19254 and 19921.  You were shown footage of a person who

20    you said spoke little English and was helping you by doing some

21    interpretation for you.

22            You say that it can be seen in the footage that he was wearing a

23    UN bulletproof vest.  You remember that; right?

24       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I remember that.

25       Q.   About that same person, you testified in the Krstic trial; and on

Page 19460

 1    1860 of the transcript, you categorically stated this, and I'll quote in

 2    English:  [In English] "I am sure it had been stolen from some of the

 3    Dutch soldiers."

 4            [Interpretation] Do you still maintain the same thing today?

 5       A.  "May," the word is "may." "May have been stolen from the Dutch-Bat

 6    soldiers."  It is possible.

 7       Q.   Very well.  That is good enough for my purposes, because I don't

 8    have much time left, but there's something I'd like to show you now.

 9            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] That is OTP Exhibit number P01936,

10    page 62.  That is the e-court reference.

11            THE REGISTRAR:  Could the counsel repeat the exhibit number,

12    please.

13            MR. LAZAREVIC:  By all means.  It's P01936, page 62.

14                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead, Mr. Lazarevic.

16            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   You see this shot.  Is this the same person you talked about?

18    That's all I'm trying to find out.  It's the young man on the right with

19    the blue UN bulletproof vest.

20       A.   Yeah.  This is the man I'm talking about.

21       Q.   Were I to tell you that Dutch soldiers never had any light blue

22    bulletproof vests but rather camouflage ones, how would that affect your

23    conclusion that this bulletproof vest may have been stolen from the UN?

24    Would that change your conclusion, sir?

25       A.   The point is that from the UN, I think my main concern was not

Page 19461

 1    whether it's Dutch-Bat but the UN.  This is an UN vest.

 2       Q.   You're entirely certain of what you are saying; right?

 3       A.   I don't know whether that means a changing, but what this means is

 4    these are UN -- UN vests.  The BSA also never used anything blue.  It is

 5    not in their inventory, but the UN had the blue bulletproof vests.

 6       Q.   Very well, very well.  There's just one more thing that I'd like

 7    us to look at.

 8            In your testimony on the 14th of December before this Tribunal,

 9    page 19290, you were watching a video clip and you noticed a person in the

10    footage: [In English] "This is not a UN soldier, but he has a blue

11    helmet."

12            [Interpretation] Do you remember that or would you perhaps like to

13    be shown the relevant portion again?

14       A.   Please do, please do.

15            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  This is

16    P2 -- P02074, and the time reference is 01.

17                          [Videotape played]

18            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] You'll be seeing that on your

19    screen in a moment, sir.

20                          [Videotape played]

21            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] We can stop now.

22       Q.   [Interpretation] We spoke about this point in time, and you talked

23    about this person, and you said that he was wearing a blue helmet but that

24    this was no UN soldier.  Do you now remember that, sir?

25       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do remember.

Page 19462

 1       Q.   Do you stand by that statement that you made; right?

 2       A.   Yes, I do.

 3       Q.   Were I to tell you that the person wearing the blue helmet was

 4    Vincentus Egbert and that he identified himself as a member of Dutch-Bat

 5    in this footage, would that perhaps do anything to change your opinion?

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 7            MR. THAYER:  I don't object to the question itself, other than

 8    that's not the testimony.  It was another individual who identified

 9    himself, Eelco Koster, not Mr. --

10            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I apologise, my mistake.  My colleague

11    is right. My colleague is 100 per cent right.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead.  It's being put to you that actually

13    that individual came here and identified himself as being a member of

14    Dutch-Bat.  What do you have to say to that?

15            THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, now, the -- the point is that I don't

16    remember whether it is this person.  I don't know whether we can see the

17    whole clip or whether there's the possibility of seeing someone else in a

18    blue -- a blue helmet who is not a Dutch soldier, because I believe there

19    was and I saw one like that.

20            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   By all means, sir, but please accept what I'm telling you.  I've

22    seen the footage many times.  We could, of course, do that.  With the

23    exception of this gentleman and yourself, nobody else appears to be

24    wearing a blue helmet in this footage.  However, I'll withdraw my

25    question.

Page 19463

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's better.  Let's proceed.

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   Just a couple of questions left.  During your evidence before this

 4    Tribunal, you spoke a great deal about the white house.  Let me clarify a

 5    point in relation to that.

 6            You said you went to this white house.  You talked about what

 7    happened there, something to do with General Mladic outside the white

 8    house.  You talked about the distribution of beer, fruit juice, sweets,

 9    and such, at the white house.  While you were there, did you actually

10    count the people who were brought to the white house?

11       A.   Your Honour, the question you're asking, I really was not there

12    counting the people who were going in; and at that particular moment, we

13    were seeing those who were inside the house, not those who were coming in.

14    So the issue of counting, I think, may not arise at this moment, because I

15    was not counting those who were going in.

16       Q.   When you say "we," are you talking about yourself, you as an

17    individual, or are you talking about other UNMOs as well?

18       A.   Here, I mean I'm talking about UNMOs.  And if I can be specific,

19    then I can talk about myself, in that when we went there with the

20    general -- when I went there with General Ratko Mladic, myself, I never

21    counted the people who were going in.  And at that particular moment, as

22    I've just said, there was no issue of people going in, because when we

23    went there to see them, they were already inside the house.

24       Q.   Just another question.  That is practically my second-to-last

25    question.

Page 19464

 1            Did you perhaps count the people who were taken from the white

 2    house to the buses?

 3       A.   No, Your Honour, I did not count.

 4       Q.   You see, there has been evidence before this Tribunal, more

 5    specifically one of the Dutch-Bat officers testified, Major Franken to be

 6    specific.

 7            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of my learned

 8    friends, I will provide a transcript reference, 4297 and 4298.

 9       Q.   Major Franken spoke about this, and he said that he was the one

10    who put an UNMO in charge of counting the people who were brought to the

11    white house, as well as those who were leaving the white house to be taken

12    to the buses.

13            Then on 2675, he goes on to say this:  "The numbers of those

14    counted tallied.  In other words, the same number of people was brought to

15    the white house as those that were taken out."

16            Is that your experience, namely, that one of the UNMOs was

17    monitoring the process whereby people were being brought to the white

18    house and taken out of the white house?  This seems to be the information

19    that was forwarded to Dutch-Bat.

20       A.   Your Honour, for one, Major Franken could not order the military

21    observers to do anything.  That is a fact.  We were the same rank.  He

22    could not order us to do anything.  Secondly, we were of different

23    commands.  We were military observers.  He was from Dutch-Bat.  So the

24    issue of ordering any observer, that's not right.

25            Secondly, the -- the counting of the men that were going into the

Page 19465

 1    white house, as far as I'm concerned, I don't think he did that.  I mean,

 2    we did that, as observers.  And even when they were going out, I don't

 3    remember -- okay.  If I talk about myself, I don't remember, myself,

 4    counting those people.  But I was there when they were going to the

 5    buses.  I was personally there, but we were not counting the people.

 6            I do not remember, myself, giving out a figure of this number of

 7    men who left -- I mean, who, as we were counting them, were going into the

 8    buses.  I don't remember doing that.  It's only that, if I may add -- if

 9    I'm allowed to add, it's only that we were counting the busloads when they

10    were leaving.  We were counting the busloads, and we could estimate the

11    number of people going out, because for the busloads, we knew capacity of

12    the buses.

13       Q.   Very well.  But this is your personal experience.  Are you certain

14    about your colleagues?  Did one of them perhaps do just that, unbeknownst

15    to you?

16       A.   Your Honour, I don't believe anyone, any other observer counted

17    the people, one, two, three, whatever, as they boarded the buses or even

18    as they were going into the white house.  That, I don't believe.  But we

19    counted the busloads.

20            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Colonel.

21            I have no further questions.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

23            Madame Fauveau.

24            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25                          Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

Page 19466

 1       Q.   My name is Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic, and I represent General

 2    Ivetic?

 3            Is it right that before getting on the territory of the former

 4    Yugoslavia, you were working in the Kenya Air Force?

 5       A.   That is correct.

 6       Q.   As an officer, as an Air Force officer, did you not have an

 7    experience in calculating trajectory and craters?

 8       A.   As a trained military officer, that was part of our training, and

 9    we were ongoing in that training and we knew how to do it.

10       Q.   Yes, but you told us that you joined the Kenyan Air Force in 1977.

11    From that moment on, therefore, you were no longer working with these

12    matters on those things?

13       A.   After joining in 1977, as a soldier, I trained and became a

14    fully-trained soldier.  In 1985, I went back for cadets officers' course,

15    a one-year cadets officers' course, which enriched me with all these

16    capabilities.  That included even battle camps and everything else that

17    has something to do with war.  All the major support weapons, everything,

18    you name it, I learned about them.

19            In 1987, I went to the United States of America, where I trained

20    on all major weapons, including even the ones which were not being used in

21    Srebrenica or in Bosnia and Herzegovina, including even the aircrafts

22    themselves, the kind of weapons they carried, and even the artillery, as

23    part of the supply chain.

24            And immediately after that, in 1988, I did the Grade 3 staff

25    course.  This is staff and command course.  That included everything to do

Page 19467

 1    with weaponry, the fighting in battle areas, and also the -- all the

 2    weapon systems that I needed in any weapon theatre, including the ones we

 3    have in the military and the ones we do not have, because they are also

 4    needed.

 5            Then in 1988, I went to India, where I trained on similar issues,

 6    but now at a slightly advanced level.

 7            So when I say that I am familiar with these kind of weapons, I may

 8    not be 100 per cent, and also my employment may not be in the infantry or

 9    any specific arm, but that does not mean I do not have a general knowledge

10    of this kind of weaponry.

11       Q.   Very well.  But you do confirm to us that for approximately 20

12    years, or 18 to be more precise, you worked as an Air Force officer?

13       A.   Your Honour, I think I've just explained that in plain terms; and

14    though the normal employment will be on the specific job that you do, that

15    does not mean that you do not know the other issues.

16       Q.   Sir, I guess you answered my question.  When you would go out to

17    analyse craters, what was the role of the interpreters during this

18    analysis?

19       A.   We were not carrying interpreters to help us in analysing.  We

20    were carrying interpreters to do their role as interpreters.

21       Q.   When you were analysing craters, did you take pictures of the

22    craters?

23       A.   Your Honour, I think -- I think we were doing -- we had cameras, I

24    think.  I can't remember very well, but I think we had cameras that we

25    used to take the photos.  Yeah, I think we had.  We were taking them.

Page 19468

 1       Q.   Would you be able to tell me where these pictures are right now or

 2    what happened to those pictures when you left the enclave?

 3       A.   Your Honour, some of the photos we would attach to the sitreps

 4    when we were sending them over, or sent them as an attachment; and where

 5    they are, where the copies are, I really cannot tell now.

 6       Q.   When you were analysing craters, would you include in your daily

 7    report the analysis, the results of the analysis, or were you sending a

 8    specific report on the crater analysis that day?

 9       A.   At times, Your Honour, we would include both the results and also

10    the measurements that we took, but what was required most was the -- the

11    analysis itself, what did we find.

12       Q.   I would like to show you now very quickly 5D502.

13            Before this document is posted on the screen, this is a

14    demilitarisation agreement that my colleague showed you yesterday.

15            What I would like to know is the following:   Before arriving to

16    Srebrenica or when you were in Srebrenica, were you made aware of this

17    agreement?  Did you ever see it while you were there?

18       A.   Your Honour, I was aware of the demilitarised areas in the whole

19    of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Concerning the document itself, I don't

20    remember seeing it or reading it, myself, but that does not mean that it

21    was not there.  I'm not sure whether it was there or not, but I don't

22    remember, you know, going through it myself.

23       Q.   At any rate, this agreement was not something that was extremely

24    important to you.  You do not have a memory of knowing or finding out what

25    these clauses were at the time?

Page 19469

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, there's a frequency interference or

 2    something.  The interpreters have some problems.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I am hearing that, too.  I don't know what's

 4    the cause of it, where it's emanating from, but there is definitely an

 5    interference.  I can't hear it now, I mean, so let's proceed; and then if

 6    it becomes a problem, we'll try and sort it out.

 7            Madame Fauveau.

 8            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, should I repeat my

 9    question?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think the question is there.

11            THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I can't see it.  I don't have it here.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Line 17 on page 57:  "At any rate, this agreement

13    was not something that was extremely important to you.  You do not have a

14    memory of knowing or finding out what these clauses were at the time?"

15            This is what is being put to you.

16            THE WITNESS:  Well, the fact that I do not see these, I did not

17    read, I did not personally read these -- this agreement, does not mean

18    that it was not important.  But at least most of the information contained

19    herein, I was aware, and we had been briefed on the issues that, you know,

20    are being referred to here.

21            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   A lot of talk was held on the disarmament of Srebrenica, which

23    didn't mean that you didn't know that weapons were coming into

24    Srebrenica.  But what I would like to know is whether you knew that the

25    Serbs suspected that weapons were carried to Srebrenica, because Serbs

Page 19470

 1    were complaining about the arrival of weapons to Srebrenica, did they not?

 2       A.   Your Honour, the question is a bit -- I don't -- I don't really

 3    get it, but the weapons that you are talking about --

 4       Q.   Sir, the question is rather complicated.  I will try to simplify

 5    it.  You are right.

 6            Is it right to say that Serbs complained about the arrival and the

 7    transportation of weapons into Srebrenica?

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  Your Honour, we're really

 9    having problems with this interference.  Could you please call a

10    technician, maybe?

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, by all means.  You could call a technician,

12    please.

13            I am not hearing it now, but of course it doesn't mean that you

14    don't have the interference over there.  We are calling a technician.

15            Okay.  Thank you.

16            Can you answer the question, Colonel?

17            THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

18            I really do not remember much concerning -- concerning the

19    complaints by the BSA on weapons going into -- into Srebrenica.  I think

20    maybe - I'm not very sure - but maybe once, but sincerely I cannot

21    remember very well -- very well of the complaints of weapons going into

22    there.

23            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   This complaint regarded the arrival of weapons via helicopters; is

25    that right?

Page 19471

 1       A.   There was ones complaining about a helicopter going into the

 2    enclave.  That was raised by the BSA.  That I can remember, and they

 3    talked about them bringing it down.  And after that, I remember, and it's

 4    in my statement somewhere, that although the BiH denied that, I saw Ramiz,

 5    you know, limping, and maybe that is -- that was the cause of the --

 6    his -- his problems on the left -- I think left or right leg,  I can't

 7    remember which one.  But, yeah, there was a complaint about a helicopter

 8    going in there.

 9       Q.   But the fact that you saw Ramiz Becirovic injured contributed to

10    veracity of the Serbian complaint.  It corroborated that complaint, didn't

11    it?

12       A.   It did, Your Honour.

13       Q.   Did you try to get more information from the municipality

14    authorities or military authorities after seeing that Ramiz Becirovic was

15    injured?

16       A.   Yes, we did.  As observers, we asked them actually the cause of

17    his limping.  In fact, we asked them if actually the helicopter was

18    brought down, and they denied.  They said there was nothing like that.

19            But after we saw that Ramiz was limping, we asked them what was

20    the cause, and they said.  Even though at time that he was hospitalised,

21    we were told; and when he came out, that is the time we discovered he was

22    limping.  When asked them, they said it's a normal injury, and that's what

23    they told us.  We could not be able to go further into it because we

24    didn't know now who else to ask.

25            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be shown

Page 19472

 1    Exhibit 5D214, please.

 2       Q.   This is an official report from the 28th Division, the Security

 3    Department.  It's a report written on the 22nd of May, 1995, and  you can

 4    see, at -- towards the middle of the page, that this is an official report

 5    drafted on the 17th of May, 1995, with regard to a helicopter that was hit

 6    during the night of 6th to 7th May, 1995.

 7            If I understand correctly, you never saw these reports before.  Is

 8    that right?

 9       A.   It's true, I didn't.  I never saw this report at all.

10       Q.   If you look at the top part of the page, you can see that it

11    says "28th Division Command, Security Department."  Do you know where this

12    Security Department of the 28th Division was situated physically?

13       A.   Your Honour, these names, I don't know where it was -- where it

14    was located.  I don't know the actual location.  All I know is that 28th

15    Division, which was later changed to 8-OG, they had a command net at our

16    building; that is, PTT.

17            THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, this interference is really

18    bothering the interpreters.  I'm terribly sorry.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  What happened with the technicians?

20                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  They are already in there.  Yes.  I can understand

22    the interpreters getting annoyed with this, because it's annoying me as

23    well.

24                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25                          [Technical Difficulties]

Page 19473

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are suggesting to take the break now, 25 minutes

 2    now, so that in the meantime they try and fix this nuisance.  Okay.

 3                          --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

 4                          --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madame Fauveau.

 6            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   After seeing Ramiz Becirovic injured, did you tell you superiors

 8    that a possibility existed that weapons had been brought to the enclave?

 9    Did you make a report on that?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

11            MR. JOSSE:  I think the problem is the witness can't hear anything

12    at all.  I had to reset my set presumably because of the problem we had

13    before.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Same case here, but it was easy to realise.

15            Can you repeat your question, please.

16            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

17       Q.   Can you tell us, sir, after you saw that Ramiz Becirovic was

18    wounded, did you send a report to your superiors regarding a possibility

19    that weapons be brought into the enclave?

20       A.   Your Honour, we sent a report concerning the possibility that that

21    helicopter that crashed could have carried Becirovic, but I don't remember

22    indicating anything to do with -- with the weapons.

23       Q.   You declared that your offices were in the post office building.

24    You talked about the centre of communications, and earlier you told us

25    that the Security Department was also in the same building.  Did you tell

Page 19474

 1    your superiors that you were in the same building as the Army of Bosnia

 2    and Herzegovina?

 3       A.   Your Honour, it was known, it was known.  We had found the

 4    building there, the observers there, housed there, and the communication

 5    was still there.  So it was all known from the beginning that the

 6    communication was there in the same building with the observers.

 7       Q.   Sir, I understand what you're telling us, but I would like to know

 8    if you or one of your colleagues, while you were there, did you ever

 9    inform your superiors about that?

10       A.   Yeah, there is a report somewhere concerning that.  The same

11    building that we were in is the one that was holding the communication

12    equipments of the BSA -- of the BiH.  There is a report on that.

13       Q.   Neither you, neither your superiors, thought that you should be in

14    a building without any military presence of one of the parties which took

15    part in the conflict?

16       A.   Well, the hiring of buildings where observers are housed, that is

17    where the officers are.  As far as I'm concerned, I was not involved in

18    it; so me, I just went where the observers were staying.

19       Q.   You also told us that you did not know if there were any brigades

20    in the enclave, the brigade that belonged to the 28th Division.  If you

21    did not know that the brigades were there, you could not know where your

22    headquarters were, could you -- where their headquarters were situated?

23       A.   Really, I don't think you want me to go back into saying the way

24    the organisation was or where the -- because I already talked about the

25    28th Division and the 8-OG.  So I know about them, and I really don't know

Page 19475

 1    what you want me to say concerning this.

 2       Q.   Since you don't know where the militaries or the soldiers in the

 3    enclave were situated, how can you know that the eventual Serb targets

 4    were civilian and not military?

 5       A.   Your Honour, this is something that I've already said before, and

 6    that is, the targeting of the enclave, whether there was any military

 7    objective or not, the way the shelling was done was definitely aimed at

 8    the residents of that place.  The residents, as far as I was concerned,

 9    were mainly civilians.  Most of them were civilians, even if there was

10    some armed brigades.

11            Definitely, the major was civilians in that enclave, and so my --

12    my conscience is very clear that the target was there, not necessarily

13    just the communication building.  The whole enclave was being shelled, and

14    the whole enclave did not have communications centres.  It did not have

15    the military people distributed in each and every corner of the enclave.

16       Q.   Do you know if Dutch-Bat members thought that the Army of

17    Bosnia-Herzegovina were shooting on their own people, that they suspected

18    this on at least one occasion?

19       A.   Your Honour, unless you tell me the occasion, because, you know,

20    Dutch-Bat were doing their own things other than where--

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  But, Colonel, this is something which you either

22    heard about or you didn't.  If you didn't, there's no point in telling you

23    when or which occasion it was.  Did you ever hear of such a case while you

24    were there?

25            THE WITNESS:  The only time that there was suspected to be -- you

Page 19476

 1    know, we suspected that maybe something like that happened was when there

 2    was an infiltration by the BSA into the enclave.  We said maybe also on

 3    the other side, the BiH could have done it on their own people, you know,

 4    themselves.  I think that is the only occasion that -- I don't remember

 5    hearing about any other occasion.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

 7            Yes, Madame Fauveau.

 8            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   It was precisely what I was talking about.

10            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be shown

11    Exhibit 5D541, please.

12            This is a Dutch-Bat report dated June 24, 1995, and I would like

13    the next page to be shown, the following page.  I'm mainly interested in

14    the bottom part of the page.

15       Q.   You can see the third paragraph from the bottom of the page, and

16    we can read the following:  [In English] "We urge you to be very careful

17    about who was responsible for this incident.  There is a possibility BiH

18    made up this attack to influence our opinion about the situation in the

19    enclave and to influence public opinion."

20            [Interpretation] So what I would like to know is if the UNMOs or

21    yourself sent a similar report regarding this incident.

22       A.   Your Honour, our report indicated that there was a BSA

23    infiltration.

24       Q.   You told us yesterday, on page 47 of the transcript, that you had

25    the list of weapons that Serbs had.  Who had given you that list?

Page 19477

 1       A.   Your Honour, I don't remember saying that we had a list of weapons

 2    that the Serbs had.  All we had was what we got there as having been used

 3    by -- by the Serbs, not necessarily a list of the weapons that the Serbs

 4    had, because we never saw them.

 5       Q.   I will read what you stated on the transcript yesterday.  On page

 6    47 of the transcript of yesterday, you said, I quote -- or at least it was

 7    written as such:  [In English] "We had a list of weapons that they had:

 8    Artillery shells, missiles, rocket-launchers, and all that."

 9            [Interpretation] I will not spend too much time on this question,

10    but are you telling us today that it was not true, that you never had such

11    a list?

12       A.   Your Honour, the list here indicates really what they used, not

13    necessarily what they had.  What was used is what we found there.  And

14    after analysing everything that was -- that was there, we came up with a

15    list of what was used during the attack, and this is what we provided.

16       Q.   Can you tell us where this list of used weapons or weapons that

17    were used at the time is?

18       A.   The list is there.  I think it is in -- in one of the reports, in

19    the document that you already have.  It is there in one of the sitreps.

20       Q.   Yesterday, on page 21, you told us that you did not know if Muslim

21    authorities of Srebrenica were stopping people from leaving the enclave.

22    Would you be surprised to find out that, in fact, the authorities of

23    Srebrenica were stopping people from leaving?

24       A.   Your Honour, I wouldn't be surprised.  In desperation, anyone can

25    do anything.

Page 19478

 1            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown document

 2    5D244, please.  It's an order, once again, from the Command of the 28th

 3    Division of the 27th of May, 1995.

 4       Q.   In the first paragraph, you can see that the command of all the

 5    units of the 28th Division should take all the measures to prevent army

 6    members and civilians from leaving the enclave.

 7       A.   Yes, I can read that.

 8       Q.   Tell us, please, your contacts in Srebrenica, the civilian

 9    authorities or military authorities, did they ever tell you that they had

10    problems with people leaving the enclave?

11       A.   No, Your Honour.

12       Q.   Look at paragraph 3.  At the beginning of the paragraph, the

13    command of the Division ordered to its units to do -- go about their tasks

14    of combat.  It is the 280th, 83rd, and 285th Light Brigade.  Can you

15    confirm that you never heard about these brigades?

16       A.   No, Your Honour, I never heard of them.

17            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 2 of

18    the document.

19       Q.   You can see on this document it's been drafted by Ramiz Becirovic,

20    a person which you knew.  Ramiz Becirovic was one of your contact points,

21    with certain information coming from him?

22       A.   [Microphone not activated]

23       Q.   Could you repeat your answer, please?

24       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I can see that.

25       Q.   My question was:  Is it true that some information which you

Page 19479

 1    obtained came from Ramiz Becirovic?

 2       A.   I think I'm lost.  What information, because I didn't see that.

 3    What information could you be referring to, please?

 4       Q.   You said that you were three observers and that you had to obtain

 5    information from somebody in order to be able to check this information.

 6    Is it true that some information, in particular on the Serbian attacks,

 7    were given by Ramiz Becirovic?

 8       A.   It's true, some of the military issues, you know, issues to do

 9    with the enclave.  From the beginning, I said we were discussing with

10    Ramiz Becirovic and also with the mayor of the Opstina.  So we were in

11    constant touch with them.

12       Q.   Indeed, both the mayor and Ramiz Becirovic gave you information,

13    the information which suited them?

14       A.   Your Honour, that I may not -- I may not know.  The information we

15    were getting is the information they give us.  So whether it's the one

16    that suited them or not, I really cannot -- cannot tell.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  The question was in another sense. I think you to

18    understand the question put to you as being the following:  Would you

19    accept that in giving you a series of information, Ramiz Becirovic and

20    others may have been taking you down the garden path, feeding you false

21    information on purpose?  Would you accept that, that that could have been

22    the case?

23            THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I really won't take it that way,

24    because there were many issues that we were discussing concerning the

25    enclave that really you could see that was true, and it's not everything

Page 19480

 1    that we were saying that was not correct or that he was telling us or that

 2    interested -- was to their interests.

 3            But at the same time, I think it's worth remembering that when we

 4    have two warring factions, definitely you get from one side what they want

 5    you to know and also what they want you to convey to the other side.

 6    Likewise, when we go to the other side, the BSA side, they were telling us

 7    what they know from their side and what they want us to convey to the BiH.

 8            So these are issues that by now maybe, Your Honour, you should

 9    see.

10            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   You spoke of humanitarian aid, and you said that a part of the

12    humanitarian aid brought by UNHCR was sold on the market.  Do you know how

13    it was possible that the humanitarian aid was sold on the market, please?

14       A.   Your Honour, let me start by correcting that.  It's not that

15    humanitarian aid brought by UNHCR was sold on the market.  It is that part

16    of it was being sold on the market, because the interpretation here may

17    mean that everything that was brought in by the UNHCR was being sold at

18    the market.  But the locals sometimes could save a bit of it.  You said

19    you see the other part being sold in the market.  That was evident.  We

20    could see part of it being sold in the market, but not everything.

21       Q.   Who was monitoring the distribution of humanitarian aid inside the

22    enclave?

23       A.   Your Honour, when there was a distribution of -- of this

24    humanitarian aid, we used to send one observer to go there and see what is

25    happening.

Page 19481

 1       Q.   Did you inform the UNHCR that part of the humanitarian aid was

 2    later on the market, was to be seen on the market?

 3       A.   They were also aware.  We used to see it, and they were also aware

 4    about it.

 5       Q.   And did you -- you did say, sir, a part, a small part, you said,

 6    was taken by the BH Army.  Did you inform UNHCR of the fact that the BH

 7    Army took part of the humanitarian aid?

 8       A.   There was no -- there was nothing like that they were taking this

 9    apart in proportion, maybe a certain percentage.  But at least even the

10    UNHCR knew about the soldiers, that is, the BiH also being given a bit of

11    the proportion, but not in percentage form that it is official, they've

12    got to get this percentage of what is distributed.

13            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown document

14    5D65.  And just before that, it's a report from the Dutch Institute, NIOD.

15      This is just an excerpt of this report.

16            Could you please show page 3 of the document, the last paragraph.

17       Q.   Can you see the last paragraph?  You can read the first two

18    sentences: [In English] "In the meantime, the ABiH in Srebrenica appeared

19    to be taking good care of itself.  In May, the ABiH separated

20    approximately 40 tons of goods from UNHCR."

21       A.   Yes, I --   .

22       Q.   [Interpretation] Those 40 tons, it's a considerable quantity,

23    isn't it?

24       A.   It is, yes.  It's quite a considerable quantity, but we were not

25    aware of this.

Page 19482

 1       Q.   But you -- you knew that the Dutch-Bat was searching the convoys

 2    of UNHCR before they entered the enclave?

 3       A.   No, I'm not aware that Dutch-Bat was searching the convoy.

 4            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like you to see document

 5    5D545, copy books, notebooks which were transmitted to the Prosecution and

 6    which we obtained.

 7            No, it's not that exhibit or this document.  It is the right

 8    number in the transcript.

 9            Could we see page 12 of the document.

10            Excuse me.  Could I see the ERN number of this page.  I need to

11    see ERN number 3828, page 12.

12            Apparently, it's a mistake.  It should be page 4, apparently. Yes,

13    that's the right page.  Excuse me.

14       Q.   You see here you were in a meeting with several people, and

15    towards the lower part of the page, you can see:  [In English] "Search by

16    Dutch-Bat on UNHCR convoys should continue."

17            [Interpretation] Do you remember something of that?  Does it ring

18    a bell?

19       A.   I can't see where you -- where you're reading.

20       Q.   While you were looking, you see at a given moment it is the Chief

21    of Staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina who's speaking, "COS BiH," and after that

22    there is a hyphen, and there I repeat what I said because it was not in

23    the transcript: [In English] "Search by Dutch-Bat..." [Microphone not

24    activated]

25             "Search by Dutch-Bat on UNHCR convoys continue."

Page 19483

 1       A.   Yes, I can -- [Microphone not activated]

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] Tell me, do you -- does it help you to remember

 3    this topic?

 4       A.   Your Honour, what this means, and if you read the whole paragraph

 5    in totality, is that this is the Chief of Staff saying it, that -- about

 6    the information he had gotten concerning the convoy and that the BSA would

 7    get a token, because that is what he's saying he had, and that the search

 8    by Dutch-Bat on the UNHCR convoys should continue.

 9            That does not necessarily mean that it was actually happening or

10    that I knew about it.  I'm writing about what the Chief of Staff was

11    saying, if you can read that paragraph in totality.

12       Q.   I understand that maybe you were not aware of that before this

13    meeting.  But if the representative of the BH Army said that the search

14    should continue, that means they were in progress, and they existed?

15       A.   Your Honour, one may interpret it that way.  But as far as I was

16    concerned, there was no such a -- there was no such thing being done by

17    UN -- by Dutch-Bat on UNHCR convoys.  I don't -- I don't remember knowing

18    something like that.  I don't.

19       Q.   Do you know that Medicins Sans Frontieres was present, the

20    organisation Medicins Sans Frontieres were present in Srebrenica; are you

21    aware of that?

22       A.   [Microphone not activated]

23       Q.   And when you arrived at Srebrenica in April 1995, you heard that

24    there were problems between the municipal authorities and that

25    organisation?

Page 19484

 1       A.   Your Honour, I did.  There were problems between them.

 2            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown an

 3    exhibit, 1D470, which we've already shown.

 4       Q.   This is a debriefing with your colleague when you arrived in

 5    Zagreb on the 24th of July, 1995, and yesterday you told us that you

 6    remembered this briefing or debriefing.

 7            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown paragraph

 8    2.

 9       Q.   You said yesterday that you had two notebooks.  One was destroyed,

10    you destroyed it, and the other one, the one we have seen now, you had it

11    when you arrived in Zagreb, didn't you?

12       A.   Yes, I did, I had that.

13       Q.   Why -- do you have an explanation why this -- for these briefing

14    notes, at the middle of paragraph two:  [In English]"  The Kenyan officer

15    seemed to have no written record"?

16       A.   That is what is written there, that I seem to not have written

17    records, and it's true.  When we were being debriefed, I did not have it.

18    That does not mean I did not have it in my -- in my dwelling area in

19    Zagreb.

20            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could page 5 be shown now, please,

21    page 5 of this document, please.

22       Q.   Can you see paragraph 23?  It's about Sunday and Monday, 9/10

23    July; and in paragraph 24, you can read:  [In English] "The compound in

24    Potocari was not fired on at all; although, it could easily have been."

25            [Interpretation] Is this what you have said to your colleagues in

Page 19485

 1    Zagreb on the 24th of July, 1995?  Is that what you told them?  The

 2    question was:  Did you and your colleagues, have you said that in Zagreb

 3    on the 24th of July?

 4       A.   Your Honour, I don't think this is correct.  I don't think we're

 5    the ones who said it.  I don't know who this report is coming from,

 6    because the compound in Potocari was fired at several times.  We were

 7    reporting that in our sitreps, and we even indicated that even the day we

 8    were going in, there was -- there was shelling in the Potocari compound.

 9       Q.   If you look at paragraph 25, it is a question of Tuesday,

10    therefore, on the 11th of July; and then on the second sentence: [In

11    English] "However, the factory at Potocari was already full and they had

12    to stop 100 metres outside the compound.  This was not seen as a problem

13    because it was already noted that the BSA were not firing on the area."

14            [Interpretation] The only question I'm interested in is that

15    effectively, at a given moment on the 11th of July, the refugees could not

16    enter the compound anymore; is that true?

17       A.   It is true they could not enter.  It was already full.

18            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could now page 3 be shown, page 3 of

19    this document.

20       Q.   We can see paragraph 13, and this paragraph has been noted:  [In

21    English] "There were allegedly no stores of food and the civilian

22    population was getting very unruly because of this.  In fact, there were

23    many smuggling routes that brought in food every day.  OPK reported 40-50

24    horses bringing in food each day from Zepa.  Occasionally, the BSA

25    ambushed the trail, but it still went on.

Page 19486

 1            "There was some payment going on at a high level between the BSA

 2    and the BiH to allow this transport.  UNMOs were not allowed to see inside

 3    the Opstina storage area to check food stocks."

 4            [Interpretation] What I'm interested in is the last sentence of

 5    this paragraph.  Yesterday, you told us that you could go and see the

 6    warehouse where the food stuffs were.  Perhaps you made a mistake.  Is it

 7    possible?

 8            Is it true that you couldn't go and see the contents of the

 9    warehouse, or at least not always?

10       A.   Your Honour, at least we could go there and count the food that

11    was inside there.  We were able to do that.  If maybe there's a day that

12    we could not or one of us was not able to go there, maybe that is an

13    exception, but at least most of the time we were allowed to go there and

14    see what was inside.

15       Q.   So what you say now is that indeed there were exceptions and that

16    sometimes you were not allowed to enter and see.  You leave the

17    possibility that there were situations where you couldn't go in and see?

18       A.   Your Honour, the possibility I leave is that maybe an observer,

19    once or twice or whatever number, maybe was not allowed; but as far as I

20    know, whenever we wanted to go in there to see what is inside, we were

21    able to, to do that.

22       Q.   You have no explanation why this sentence is in the debriefing

23    report in Zagreb on the 24th of July, three days only after you left the

24    enclave of Srebrenica?

25       A.   Your Honour, I said this could have been maybe one instant, but

Page 19487

 1    the number of times we wanted to go there --

 2       Q.   All right.  Now -- all right, now, this paragraph also speaks of

 3    the food which was coming from Zepa.  You knew that food stuffs were

 4    coming from Zepa?

 5       A.   Yes, Your Honour, we -- I knew that.

 6       Q.   You also knew that Zepa was an enclave?

 7       A.   Yes, I did.

 8       Q.   Have you ever asked the municipality authorities how it happened

 9    that Zepa had enough food to feed also the people in Srebrenica?

10       A.   I never asked, Your Honour.

11       Q.   On the 13th of December last, you mentioned the British who were

12    in the enclave, and you said that they could go anywhere, and they had a

13    vehicle, a Land Rover in particular.  Do you know who was giving,

14    furnishing the petrol to these British personnel so that they could use

15    their vehicle?

16       A.   I really do not know, but it could have been coming from either

17    UNHCR or Dutch-Bat.  That, I'm not aware.  I cannot recall.

18       Q.   Do you know who sent these British people inside the enclave?

19       A.   I don't know who sent them in the enclave.

20       Q.   And you don't know to whom they reported, either?

21       A.   I don't know.

22       Q.   You said that on the 9th of July, when you left Srebrenica and

23    went to Potocari, you had a problem, which was to go back to Srebrenica,

24    and you sent your interpreter there to give you some information, to

25    report, to tell you what was going on at Srebrenica.

Page 19488

 1            If I understood what you said on the 13th of December, page 19218,

 2    it was too dangerous for you - I'm talking about the UNMOs, not you

 3    personally - to go back to Srebrenica, to return.  Is that a fact?

 4       A.   That is a fact.

 5       Q.   Your interpreter at the time was only 20 years old, Emir

 6    Suljagic.  Your interpreter at the time, he was just 20 years old or so?

 7       A.   He had just celebrated his 20 -- 20 years, that's true.

 8       Q.   Didn't you feel that it was also dangerous for your interpreter to

 9    return to Srebrenica?

10       A.   I think that is indicated in my report very clearly, that we found

11    us going back to Srebrenica, in our white vehicle, soft-skinned vehicle,

12    and our blue helmets.  I think it's very clear in my report that it could

13    have made us a collective target.  We could easily have been seen.

14            So after we discussed together, that is, we observers and the

15    interpreter, we agreed he can go there using that route through the river

16    all the way up, because through that he could not be -- he could not be

17    seen.  But with us, we couldn't go back to Srebrenica.

18            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would now like to see P501.

19       Q.   It's your own report, your report of the 10th of July.  What I'm

20    interested in is the second part of this report, where there's this

21    question of the shells of 150 [as interpreted] millimetres.

22            In this report, we read that it was probably shells of 155

23    millimetres.

24       Q.   Can you tell us whether the word "probably" was the word used by

25    your interpreter when he told you what was going on, or was it a word used

Page 19489

 1    by the drafter of the report?  Was it added by the person who drafted the

 2    report, this "probably"?

 3       A.   This is our report, and the word "probably" means we were not sure

 4    whether it is the 155-millimetre shells or not.

 5       Q.   I understand very well, but was it the interpreter who was on the

 6    spot who wasn't sure or was it you who weren't sure of what the

 7    interpreter was telling you?

 8       A.   It is we who are not sure of what he was telling us.  We could not

 9    confirm that is exactly 155 or any other calibre.

10       Q.   In this report, you say nowhere that this information was given by

11    interpreter.  Anybody reading this report could think it was one of the

12    UNMOs who had seen that?

13       A.   Yeah, it is true, one can interpret that.

14       Q.   In fact, you should have said that this information was not

15    confirmed by the UNMOs?

16       A.   Agreed.

17            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

18    P1533.  This is an aerial photograph of Potocari.

19            Would it be possible to zoom on the road.

20       Q.   First of all, I would like to ask you:  On the 12th of July in

21    Potocari, there were a lot of people, wasn't there?

22       A.   Yeah, there were.  There were a lot of people.

23            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

Page 19490

 1       Q.   And on this photograph, you can see people just in the middle of

 2    the road going towards a bus.  You don't see people anywhere else.  Does

 3    this photo correspond to what you saw in Potocari on the 12th of July,

 4    1995?

 5       A.   Yeah, it does.  I think it does.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Madame Fauveau, you've already taken an hour and ten

 7    minutes.

 8            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could I ask for an extra five

 9    minutes, please?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

11            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12       Q.   How is it that here you can't see any people?

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14            MR. THAYER:  Objection to the way the question is phrased,

15    Mr. President.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

17            Madame Fauveau.

18            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Very well.  I will go to another

19    topic, and it will be my last question, if I could put my last question.

20            Could the witness be shown Exhibit P515, please.

21       Q.   This is your report, sir, dated 13th of July, 1995.

22            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown paragraph

23    6.  It's at the bottom of the page.

24       Q.   It talks about the fact that 50 babies were born.

25            Would you agree, sir, that there must be a mistake there and that,

Page 19491

 1    in fact, they probably meant five babies and not 50 babies?

 2       A.   It is, it is possible.  I can't remember whether there were five

 3    or 50.  I can't remember.

 4       Q.   I will not spend too much time on this, but I would like to remind

 5    you that in your personal journal, you noted that in 1993 a hundred babies

 6    were born; and 1994 and 1995, 1.040 babies were born, which on an average

 7    brings us to two to three babies a day.  So to my mind, "five babies"

 8    seems to be a plausible number.  Do you agree with me?

 9       A.   Your Honour, as I say, right now I cannot remember whether it was

10    five or 50, so it's a possibility.

11       Q.   Thank you very much.

12            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madame Fauveau.

14            Mr. Josse.

15                          Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:

16       Q.   My name is David Josse, and I represent General Gvero.

17            You have described, Colonel Kingori, being very scared as you left

18    Srebrenica on the 9th of July.  That's right, isn't it?

19       A.   That's right, Your Honour.

20       Q.   And you described, with what might be described as a disarming

21    frankness, being very, very scared on the journey to Potocari that day?

22       A.   I agree, Your Honour.

23       Q.   And when you arrived in Potocari, you spent a fair amount of your

24    time there in a bunker; correct?

25       A.   That's not correct, Your Honour.  Immediately, we entered

Page 19492

 1    Potocari, we established a communication -- our communication net, and it

 2    is well documented.  We have written that.  We never entered the bunker

 3    immediately we went there.  So it's all documented that we started

 4    establishing a communication link with our headquarters.

 5       Q.   I didn't say you spent -- went there immediately.  I said you

 6    spent a fair amount of your time inside the bunker.  Would you agree with

 7    that?

 8       A.   No, that is not correct.

 9       Q.   Who else was with you in this bunker?

10       A.   Which bunker are you talking about?  In Potocari?

11       Q.   Yes.

12       A.   Yes.  Whenever there was firing, we would go into a bunker, and I

13    was not alone.  There was many of us.

14       Q.   Who?

15       A.   That is people from Dutch-Bat and ourselves as UN observers.

16       Q.   You've been asked a great deal about your time in the enclave

17    prior to the commencement of hostilities and whether you were aware of any

18    aggression inside the enclave from Muslims or any general military

19    activity on the part of the Muslims; and for the most part, you weren't

20    aware of either aggression or military activity.  Is that a fair summary

21    of what you've been saying over the last few days?

22       A.   That is true, we were not aware of the Muslim military activity.

23    We were not aware of that.

24       Q.   And, in particular, you've been at pains to point out that you

25    were not aware of any complaint by the VRS of Muslim military activity?

Page 19493

 1       A.   That's correct.

 2       Q.   Now, the journal or the diary that Ms. Fauveau, the counsel who's

 3    just been cross-examining you, have taken to you to, you brought to the

 4    Hague with you on Tuesday; correct?

 5       A.   That's correct.

 6       Q.   Did you have a read of it prior to giving evidence in December?

 7       A.   No, I had not gone through it.

 8       Q.   Did you read it on your way to The Hague this week?

 9       A.   Yes, I did.

10       Q.   It, on a number of occasions, does it not, makes mention of

11    meetings you attended prior to the outbreak of hostilities, in other

12    words, in particular May and in particular June of 1995, where Serbs made

13    clear that they were very unhappy about military activity by Muslims?

14       A.   Yeah, there was some mention about that.

15       Q.   Why haven't you previously mentioned it, Mr. Kingori, when you've

16    been asked repeatedly on the topic?

17       A.   Your Honour, I remember mentioning that; and especially when I

18    said that when - if you want me to go back to it - when the BSA were

19    complaining mainly about the BiH activities, whenever a deal went sour,

20    that is what we had and it's documented.  Whenever there was a

21    disagreement between these two groups when they inhabited the -- or the

22    Muslims were going to Tuzla or any other place to get food and come back,

23    whenever there was a disagreement, that is the only time that the BSA

24    could come and complain about incursions or even presence or passage of

25    the BSA -- the BiH through the Serb-held territory.

Page 19494

 1       Q.   So you're saying that you understood this to be some sort of

 2    elaborate ploy on the part of the Serb negotiators, where they were making

 3    this up in order to in some way subvert these negotiations; is that your

 4    evidence?

 5       A.   Your Honour, I won't summarise it that way.  They had the reasons

 6    to say whatever they wanted to say, and so we would not just dismiss it as

 7    such.  But we had to weigh the situation as it was at that particular

 8    moment, given the fact that we were getting information from all sides and

 9    from all the groups concerned.

10       Q.  "We" in this context is who, Colonel?  You, the UNMOs, or the UNMOs

11    and Dutch-Bat?

12       A.   With the UNMOs.

13       Q.   Well, let's have a look at a few entries, if we may, in this

14    diary.

15            MR. JOSSE:  I don't have the advantage of my copy having ERN

16    numbers at the bottom, so this is going to be a little tricky to do.

17            I sought here -- heard the number "5D545."  I didn't actually know

18    it was in e-court.  Let's see how we get on.  The seventh page, at the

19    bottom.  No, these pages, unfortunately, don't marry up.

20            Is there an unmarked hard copy?  I've, in fact, got one.  We've

21    got a bigger one.  There are two versions.  Thank you, thank you very

22    much.

23            Perhaps you'd give that one to the witness and perhaps you'd put

24    this one on the ELMO.

25       Q.   Do you have the original with you, Mr. Kingori?

Page 19495

 1       A.   It is inside there.  I have it there.

 2       Q.   It's in the witness room, is it?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Perhaps when I continue after the break, if you'd bring it back in

 5    with you.

 6       A.   Sure, I will.

 7       Q.   Now, the bit that I want to refer you to is there on the screen in

 8    the left-hand side of the page.  It's not entirely clear to me when the

 9    meeting you are referring to took place.  You might be able to help with

10    that, but we can see --

11            MR. JOSSE: No, other side of the page, please.

12       Q.   It says:  "BSA said the enclave is not fully demilitarised.  All

13    inferences to and from the enclave will be closed as of today.  BiH are

14    seen at UNPROFOR Ops, and BSA will shoot them.  The situation should go

15    back to normal soonest."

16            Then it's clear from the next comment that the commander of

17    Dutch-Bat was present at the meeting.

18            Now, presumably this was some sort of meeting and you were taking

19    minutes.  Is that right?

20       A.   Yeah.  I was taking my own minutes so that I can convey the same.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

22            MR. THAYER:  If I might just ask if we could go back a couple of

23    pages, because I'm -- I'm not sure that, if we just look at what this

24    memorialises, that this actually memorialises a meeting in which the

25    witness was present with the BSA.  I don't mean any disrespect to my

Page 19496

 1    friend; but just to make the record clearer, if we go back to the

 2    preceding page, it refers to a meeting with Dutch-Bat, UNMOs, and the BiH,

 3    in which they relate a meeting between the liaison team from Dutch-Bat and

 4    the BSA.  I just wanted to clarify that.

 5            MR. JOSSE:

 6       Q.   You heard what Mr. Thayer just said there, Colonel.  That is

 7    probably right, isn't it?  In other words, this was a meeting between

 8    Dutch-Bat and Muslim authorities, in which they were relaying allegations

 9    that the Serbs were making?  That's right, isn't it?

10       A.   Yeah, maybe you can let me go back to the --

11       Q.   Yes.

12       A.   -- to the other pages.

13       Q.   But the reason, frankly, I'm not very concerned about that, is

14    that what I'm trying to elicit is the fact that you were made aware of

15    allegations that the VRS were making.  Whether they're making it to you or

16    making it indirectly, you knew about it, didn't you?  That's the thrust of

17    the questions I'm about to ask you.  I want you to be clear about that.

18       A.   Maybe I'm lost.  Maybe you'll bring me back on track, because I

19    don't get what question actually -- your actual question.  You read these

20    and I have read it, but I don't get the actual question.

21       Q.   The question is:  This is an occasion when you were being made

22    aware that the Serbs were complaining about Muslim military aggression;

23    correct?

24       A.   It is true that they were talking about the military activities

25    that was not fully -- according to them, it was not at that time

Page 19497

 1    demilitarised.

 2       Q.   Let's go forward a few pages, the 4th of June, because it's a

 3    little bit clearer.  So at the left-hand side of my page, it says: "4th of

 4    June, 1995, meeting with the BiH, Dutch-Bat," and someone called

 5    Mr. Ramisi [phoen]?

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse, I think Madam Usher is not in a position

 7    to follow.  Do you have some kind of other identification reference?

 8            Okay.  She found it.

 9            MR. JOSSE:  Thank you.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11            MR. JOSSE:  No, unfortunately, it's not that.  It's two pages on

12    from that, two pages on.

13            It is that.  Thank you very much.

14       Q.   Now, it does appear that at this meeting, no Serb was present. But

15    here we see that the BSA have threatened to shoot at BiH soldiers

16    using..." is that "artillery"?  Is that short for "artillery"?

17       A.   "Artillery," that's correct.

18       Q.   "... or other weapons if the BiH keep shooting at BSA from UN

19    positions.  The BSA have ensured the enclave that unarmed civilians will

20    be saved and they will attack only armed soldiers."

21            Colonel, you were aware, weren't you, that the VRS were suggesting

22    that the Muslims were acting in an aggressive manner towards them?

23       A.   Your Honour, the issue was in here.  Whenever we had meetings with

24    the BSA, whatever they told us we conveyed to the BiH, and vice versa.  So

25    you can see here now this is we are reporting what we have been told to

Page 19498

 1    the BiH.  We are telling them that --

 2       Q.   Precisely.

 3       A.   -- what the BSA are saying.  That is true.

 4       Q.   What I'm asking you is why today you continued telling this Trial

 5    Chamber that you weren't aware of these allegations.  That's been the

 6    thrust of your evidence today and before Christmas.  Why?

 7       A.   The fact that these reports were being made, you know, we got to

 8    look at the whole issue in totality, in that the threats that we were

 9    getting, the reports that we were getting from the BSA concerning what was

10    happening inside the enclave or even outside, there's the Muslims who were

11    getting out to Zepa or any other place, this is actually what is written

12    here.  These are accurate reports we were getting from them.

13            When we are telling the Muslims, we are telling them so that they

14    can also tell us whether it is true, verify if it is true that that is

15    actually happening, because we've got to tell them, and I never say they

16    never did that.

17            In one of my reports, and I think in my statement, I indicated

18    that we were being told that the Muslims were actually infiltrating on

19    the -- on the Serb side.  In fact, they were going to Zepa, and that is

20    indicated.  And there were activities, and especially when there were

21    problems between the two -- between the two groups.  That is all

22    indicated, so I'm not hiding anything out of it.

23       Q.   On the 13th of December, you were asked whether Major Nikolic or

24    Colonel Vukovic or any other Serb - and I'm paraphrasing here at page

25    19168 - ever complained that Muslim forces were attacking from inside the

Page 19499

 1    enclave or outside the enclave.

 2            You give quite a long answer, and you end by saying:  "It was, I

 3    think, very rare or never occurred."

 4       A.   Correct.

 5       Q.   That answer is correct, is it?

 6       A.   It is correct.

 7       Q.   Then would you explain why this diary is peppered with references

 8    to allegations that Serbs have made to the contrary?

 9       A.   If you look at the whole document, how many meetings did we have

10    with the BSA?  How many meetings did we have with the BiH?  If you look at

11    all that, you'll find that the complaints about the -- the incursions by

12    the -- by the BiH actually are minimal, very few, if any, and I still

13    stand by that.

14       Q.   You were at pains, weren't you, in December to tell the Trial

15    Chamber about the allegations that you say -- or, I beg your pardon, about

16    what Colonel Vukovic said as to how he was going to have all the Muslims

17    removed from the enclave or forced out of the enclave.  You obviously

18    remember that?

19       A.   Very well, I do.

20       Q.   Why is it not in the diary?

21       A.   It's not everything that happened is in this diary.

22       Q.   You mentioned Colonel Vukovic in the diary on at least two places,

23    don't you?

24       A.   Correct, but it's not necessarily the meeting that he said that.

25       Q.   No.  So it's -- why is it not recorded in the diary?  Explain to

Page 19500

 1    the Court.

 2       A.   Your Honour, I've just said that it's not everything that is

 3    recorded in this -- in this diary, and I said from the beginning that

 4    there were -- there was another diary and also there was no limitation on

 5    the number of books that you could go out with.  Maybe it was in another

 6    book that I destroyed, but the issue is that was reported even in our

 7    daily sitrep.  It is official.  He said it and I recorded it, so the issue

 8    of the diary does not arise in this case.

 9            The point is what we were reporting to the UN system is that that

10    is what Colonel Vukovic said.  It is evidence, and I remember very well I

11    was in that meeting and he said it.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I think we need to stop here, Mr. Josse.

13    We'll continue at 2.15.

14            Thank you.

15                          [Trial Chamber confers]

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, one moment, because I'm not worried about

17    ourselves and you having lunch because we can always find something to

18    eat, but what about the accused?  I would like to know, and I want to be

19    sure.

20            MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, I don't want to speak these fellows, who

21    can speak for themselves, but I know food is provided on a daily basis.

22    Whether it amounts to lunch is another issue, but certainly they are

23    provided with food.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but what I mean is that they are not going back

25    to the Detention Unit and come back.

Page 19501

 1            MR. JOSSE:  But of course not.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  So what I wanted to ensure is that they are given

 3    something to eat while they are here and that they are not kept --

 4            MR. JOSSE:  Yes, Your Honour, as I tried, obviously not very

 5    effectively, to explain, is that they are provided with a packed lunch.

 6    They have a packed lunch, and I think they're all satisfied.  Perhaps I

 7    apologise to any one of them if they're not happy with what I'm saying.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So we'll meet in 30 minutes' time from now,

 9    thank you.  Yes, 20 past.

10                          --- Recess taken at 1.48 p.m.

11                          --- On resuming at 2.25 p.m.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse.

13            JUDGE KWON:  Just a quick question to Mr. Josse.  What we have in

14    e-court is not a full pact, is it?

15            MR. JOSSE:  I think --

16            JUDGE KWON:  This diary?

17            MR. JOSSE:  I think it is the full pact, as I understand.

18            JUDGE KWON:  Twenty-seven pages?

19            MR. JOSSE:  Yes.

20            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21            MR. JOSSE:  Mr. Thayer, I think, can help more on that, much more

22    than me.

23            JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

24            MR. THAYER:  Just to add a little bit of detail, I advised my

25    friends in an e-mail that there were numerous blank pages throughout the

Page 19502

 1    diary, two big chunks of blank pages where the diary - pardon me, I'm a

 2    little under the weather - where the diary basically stopped at a

 3    particular date.  We did not scan those blank pages, given the press of

 4    time to get it into the hands of my friends, but the original has been

 5    available for their review.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 7            JUDGE KWON:  At any rate, for future reference, I would like to

 8    know the e-court pages later on, in one way or another.

 9            MR. JOSSE:  Yes.

10            Your Honour, I'm going to come back to that document in a moment,

11    and I have marked in red, on the copy I had, the passages that I'm going

12    to go to, to make life for all of us easier.  I regret to say that in a

13    few moments' time, I'm going to show the witness some other documents

14    which also aren't in e-court, but I think they will be less problematical.

15       Q.   Now, Mr. Kingori, when we broke off, I was asking you about your

16    allegation as to what Vukovic had said to you about expelling and killing

17    Muslims, and you had told the Trial Chamber that it wasn't in your diary,

18    that it didn't matter, because it was in your daily sitrep.  You're sure

19    about that, are you?

20       A.   I am.  The official documents of the UN is the sitrep, and we

21    ensured that we put it there.

22       Q.   When was the last time you saw the relevant sitrep, the one that

23    had that report of the conversation with Vukovic in?

24       A.   I think it was in -- the last time, I think, it was in December.

25    At least I saw it at that time.

Page 19503

 1       Q.   All right.  Well, let's have a look at another document which

 2    might shed some light on that very topic, and it's part of the NIOD

 3    report.  Now, you were asked about the NIOD report earlier by Ms. Fauveau.

 4    Do you know what it is?  There's no reason why you should know what it is;

 5    but if you don't, I think I should tell you so -- out of fairness, because

 6    I'm actually going to put a number of passages from it to you.

 7            Do you know what the NIOD report is?

 8       A.   NIOD, I don't understand what it is.

 9       Q.   What it is is it's a report, and it was prepared I think at the

10    behest of the Dutch government by an independent institute which

11    investigated, in great depth, the events surrounding the fall of

12    Srebrenica and the events subsequent to the fall of the enclave.  Okay?

13       A.   Okay, I understand now.

14       Q.   And parts of it have been referred to in passing in the course of

15    this case, and I think you'll answer my next question.  It makes a number

16    of passing references to you, in your role.  You obviously weren't aware

17    of that.  Since you didn't know what the NIOD report is, you presumably

18    didn't know what it said about you; correct?

19       A.   It's true, I don't know about it.  I don't know what it said about

20    me.

21       Q.   Now, I'd like you to have a look at this part, first of all,

22    please.

23            MR. JOSSE: This needs to go on the ELMO.

24       Q.   Now, to help, what's going on the ELMO is a small section of part

25    3 of this very long report called "The Fall of Srebrenica," chapter 4:

Page 19504

 1     "The Mood in the Enclave, May-July 1995".  That heading has in effect

 2    been cut-and-pasted into this bit, and this bit, itself, comes from

 3    section 7.  So we all know what we're talking about.

 4            I'm going to read aloud, in fact, the first two paragraphs here.

 5    It says this:  "With respect to the opening of a corridor for the

 6    population, UNMO Major Joseph Kingori stated in 1997 that he had been

 7    invited in early June by VRS Major Nikolic to a meeting in Hotel Fontana

 8    in Bratunac, which was also attended by VRS Colonel Vukovic, as well as

 9    another high-ranking VRS officer.

10            "The VRS delegation had taken this opportunity to state through

11    Vukovic that the entire population would have to leave the enclave.  In

12    addition, Vukovic is said to have threatened that if this did not happen,

13    he would have the population killed.  However, if the population were to

14    leave, they would be offered safe passage to Tuzla.

15            "Kingori understandably said that the meeting had left him with

16    the feeling that something was in the air if no use were to be made of the

17    corridor.  He also assumed that the Bosnian Serbs had passed on the same

18    message to the UN headquarters, but no indications can be found for this

19    in the UNPROFOR archives.  The message clearly did not reach this

20    destination."

21            Do you understand what the author of the report is trying to say

22    there, Colonel?

23       A.   Yes, I do understand.

24       Q.   It's in complete variance to what you told the Chamber before the

25    adjournment we've just had, isn't it?

Page 19505

 1       A.   Not necessarily, because when we wrote the report and we sent it

 2    to the UN headquarters, whether someone could have found it later or not,

 3    really, we may not know.  I may not know.  But the point is he said that,

 4    we recorded it, and we sent it to the UN headquarters.

 5            MR. JOSSE:  All right.  Could we go to the next page, please.

 6       Q.   The paragraph I'm leaving out, in fact, simply deals with your

 7    testimony here in the Krstic trial.

 8            The next page, which is the paragraph after the one I've left out,

 9    reads as follows:  "What is surprising is that Kingori had apparently not

10    reported back what was discussed so that it could reach Dutch-Bat."

11            That, you're saying, is inaccurate.  Is that correct, Major --

12    Colonel, I beg your pardon?

13       A.   What they're saying is what is surprising is that Kingori had

14    apparently not reported back what was discussed so that it could reach

15    Dutch-Bat.

16       Q.   Did you tell Dutch-Bat what Vukovic had said to you?

17       A.   Yes, we told them.

18       Q.   So what this sentence that I have just read out states is

19    inaccurate?

20       A.   Correct.

21       Q.   Let's go on:  "Neither was the subject raised at the debriefing of

22    the UNMOs, including Kingori, after the fall of Srebrenica."

23            It's not in your debriefing, is it?

24       A.   We were not asked that question, and so I don't remember whether

25    we raised it -- we raised it ourselves or not.  But at least this was

Page 19506

 1    known by everybody in the UN headquarters.  They knew about what we had

 2    reported about Colonel Vukovic, about the threats he had made.  Right now

 3    I think I can remember very well we talked about it during the debrief.

 4    We talked about it.  We told them about what they -- the events that

 5    happened just prior to the fall of the enclave.  We talked about it.

 6       Q.   Well, I think we can rest assured, Colonel, that if what this

 7    report says is inaccurate, when Mr. Thayer asks some questions a little

 8    later, he'll put us right.  I mean, it may be the report is wrong and

 9    you're right, but we'll no doubt discover shortly.  So I'll move on, if I

10    may.

11            Let's go back, if we may, to your journal.  I'll call it that.

12            MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, the document I've just referred to,

13    perhaps that needs a number.  I don't know if I can have some assistance

14    from Madam Registrar in that regard.  No, I need to do that.  We'll sort

15    it out.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

17            MR. JOSSE:

18       Q.   The next passage I would like to show you is this one marked

19     "number 1".

20            MR. JOSSE:  To assist, as I say, the marking "number 1" is by me.

21    The marking in the left-hand margin on the left of the "1" was not by me,

22    could I emphasise to the Chamber.

23       Q.   This relates, to save everyone flipping through the diary, to a

24    meeting you had with Dutch-Bat, UNMOs, BiH, and Mr. Ramisi seems to be

25    present again; and, again, I accept that it appears that the Serbs were

Page 19507

 1    not at the meeting.  So this must be a repeat of what they had said to

 2    someone, presumably the Dutch, at an earlier stage.  I think this meeting

 3    was on the 16th of June.

 4            I beg your pardon, it wasn't Mr. Ramisi.  It was the Chief of

 5    Staff, Mekrem [phoen], a Dutch-Bat liaison officer.

 6            This says:  "BiH CRS say they have recently requested for

 7    assistance from the 2nd Corps HQ and have recently received.  He said he

 8    feels stronger than he was 15 days ago."

 9            Military build-up by the Muslims is what is being said there;

10    correct?

11       A.   Correct.  You can interpret it that way, yeah.

12       Q.   Well, did you interpret it that way?  You were at the meeting, you

13    wrote this down.

14       A.   Yeah.

15       Q.   Okay.  Beside that, meeting on the 20th of June.

16            MR. JOSSE:  So number 2, please.  This refers to, as I've already

17    said, the 20th of June.

18            If we go down a little bit, we can actually see -- scroll down the

19    page down a little bit.  A bit more, please.  No, down, on the ELMO to

20    you, yes.  No, the other way, the other way.  That's it.  Thank you.

21       Q.   So I won't read out what it says at the top there:  "Afternoon,

22    BiH soldiers shot at a BSA vehicle travelling a wrong road to former OPE,

23    and it landed into the river, and a firefight ensued."

24            It looks like there was some ABiH aggression there, doesn't it,

25    Colonel?

Page 19508

 1       A.   Yeah, it can be seen it's there.

 2       Q.   I repeat my earlier question.  Why haven't you mentioned this in

 3    your evidence hitherto, after you didn't think it was relevant?  Tell the

 4    Chamber.

 5       A.   I have mentioned about these incursions.  It's only that I may not

 6    have mentioned as many times as maybe you think should have been

 7    mentioned.  But at least I've mentioned somewhere that there were issues


 8    to do with the BiH activity inside and even to the BSA on the other side,

 9    against the BSA.  It is mentioned somewhere.

10            MR. JOSSE:  All right.  Could we go to number 3, please.

11       Q.   That, again, to put it into context, relates to a meeting on the

12    27th of June with the BiH, Mr. Ramisi, liaison officer team, UNMO, and

13    here we see it says:  "Dutch-Bat protested the armed soldiers along the

14    streets of the enclave."

15            Now, did you see that?

16       A.   Your Honour, it's not a matter of even seeing, because I wrote

17    about this even in our sitrep, about the presence of armed soldiers and

18    that we were not happy about it.  We saw I think there were three or four

19    along -- along the streets, and we mentioned about it.

20       Q.   Three or four soldiers, that's all?

21       A.   Yeah, we saw soldiers on the way.  I can't remember the actual --

22    the actual number, but we reported on the same.

23            MR. JOSSE:  And to waste no time, let's go to number 4, please,

24    which is a meeting of the 30th of June.

25       Q.   You might be able to help here:  "Dutch-Bat said the patrol was a

Page 19509

 1    normal one and saw five BiH and" and what does the next abbreviation stand

 2    for?

 3       A.   And a commander.

 4       Q.   2MG machine-guns?

 5       A.   Yeah, that's machine-gun.

 6       Q.   SA?

 7       A.   Small arms.

 8       Q.  "And carried on with their ..."?

 9       A.   "Patrol."

10       Q.  "... towards 399."  What's that a reference to?

11       A.   The 399, that is a trick point, one high ground.

12       Q.   So, help.  Who had the machine-guns and the small arms?

13       A.   This is the BiH soldiers that the Dutch-Bat saw.  This is a report

14    from Dutch-Bat.

15       Q.  "As they proceeded, they met five BiH soldiers in firing positions

16    who stopped them.  The patrol wanted to continue, but 12 other BiH

17    approached from height 789 and loaded them weapons, threatening the

18    Dutch-Bat patrol."

19            Do you --

20       A.   Yeah, this is a report by Dutch-Bat.  They are the ones who are

21    briefing.

22       Q.   Yes.  And do you recall that being mentioned at the meeting?

23       A.   Yes, I do.

24       Q.   Yes.  Did you put that in your sitrep?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19510

 1       Q.   You did?

 2       A.   Yeah.

 3       Q.   Okay.  So you'd agree with me that you were aware of a number of

 4    allegations of Muslim aggression prior to the attack on the enclave by the

 5    Serbs?

 6       A.   We need to separate some of this.  Like, when we are talking about

 7    this particular one, the one in front of us right now, this was a

 8    complaint by Dutch-Bat itself, not that they were acting against the BSA.

 9    Of course, they are armed; and when they are armed, obviously that is an

10    issue to us.  But this is Dutch-Bat complaining, not the BSA, because they

11    were now preventing the Dutch-Bat from their routine from carrying on with

12    their duties.

13            The other areas, if you can remember what I said concerning the --

14    the number of people who were armed inside the enclave as compared to the

15    BSA, you'll find that this is a negligible number, for sure.  This is

16    quite negligible.  And if you also compare the kind of weapons these

17    people had, five soldiers with two machine-guns and small arms, compared

18    with the ammunition that the BSA had, and you -- and they were around the

19    enclave, it's simply incomparable.

20       Q.   Why is that relevant?  You've chosen to tell the Trial Chamber

21    those last two sentences.  Explain why that's at all relevant to what I've

22    just been asking you?

23       A.   What I'm saying here is it is important to report everything, and

24    we were reporting everything as we were seeing it.  But then you cannot

25    fail to compare the kind of -- the armament or the kind of weapons that

Page 19511

 1    the two sides had.  You see that this is -- the difference is quite big.

 2    The BSA were all around the enclave, fully, fully, fully armed, compared

 3    with five -- well, five -- two machine-guns and some small arms.  It's

 4    quite incomparable, totally incomparable.

 5       Q.   I'll tell you, Colonel, why it's relevant.  It's relevant, is it

 6    not, because in your mind, you had taken the side of the Muslims and you

 7    were not acting in an impartial manner.  That's why what you've just said

 8    is relevant, isn't it?

 9       A.   Your Honour, I never said and I never used the word "irrelevant."

10    There's nothing which is irrelevant to a military observer.  We, as

11    military observers, we make sure that we report everything that we see,

12    everything that we find, everything that we are told, and we go through

13    all that before we pass it on to the higher headquarters.

14            Secondly, an issue of being biased, as far as I'm concerned, does

15    not arise at all, because I was there as a neutral person.  I personally

16    did not have any interests, I never have, and I don't think I will ever

17    have.  My country, Kenya, has got no national interest there.

18            What I'm saying is -- I mean national interests that maybe I could

19    be protecting, none at all.

20            So there's no issue of being biased, and there's no reason for me

21    to get biased because that was influencing me or even my judgement at that

22    particular moment concerning what was going on inside the enclave.  It's

23    only that you have to compare the two areas, because that was part of our

24    role, so that you can see both sides were unequal.  That is true.  So

25    there should be no match.  The Srebrenica -- the Muslims who were inside

Page 19512

 1    there were no match for the Serbs.

 2            That's why we were there, to make sure that these guys were safe,

 3    because most of the weapons were held somewhere in a safe place, as far as

 4    we knew.

 5            So comparing this kind of weapons with the other side, that may

 6    repeat what I've said, but it is imperative that we realise that there was

 7    no reason why an observer like me would be biased at all.  There was

 8    nothing to force me to get biased to any of the warring factions.  I could

 9    sit with either side.  We could discuss issues.  I could report what I was

10    told from this side to the other side.

11            It is on record that even General Ratko Mladic mentioned that he

12    had heard much about us, as observers, and how neutral we were and how

13    good we were to his people.  Major Nikolic was also aware that whatever we

14    were reporting, we were very neutral.  So there was no doubts about my

15    personal neutrality, and I was not biased at all.

16       Q.   I'll move --

17            JUDGE KWON:  Sorry, Mr. Josse.  Can I interrupt.

18            If I can put it this way, Mr. Kingori, you just compared the

19    quality of arms that were held by BSA, on the one hand, and those held by

20    the Muslims inside the enclave, on the other hand.  But inside the

21    enclave, one was not supposed to be armed at all; am I correct?

22            THE WITNESS:  You're correct, they're not supposed to be armed.

23            JUDGE KWON:  But if you are to compare the quality of arms, you

24    have to compare that of the BSA and that held by the Tuzla or 2nd Corps or

25    whatever?

Page 19513

 1            THE WITNESS:  Maybe it's not very clear, but the -- the reason why

 2    one has got to compare is not that you are going there to compare, that is

 3    not the aim.  The aim is not to compare.  The aim is to show that these

 4    people inside the enclave were disarmed.  And when you notice one or two

 5    guns, really, yeah, you're going to report on it, but it's not as much as

 6    held on the other side.

 7            JUDGE KWON:  So my point was that if one is not to be supposed

 8    armed at all, then comparison is not relevant.

 9            THE WITNESS:  It is true, but I've said that the aim was not to

10    compare.  It's only that you are forced, when you see the kind of reaction

11    from the other side and this other side, because at the same time, because

12    the enclave was demilitarised, the BSA were not supposed to harm or even

13    fire at the enclave, but they were also doing that.

14            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15            Mr. Josse.

16            MR. JOSSE:  Yes.  I'm going to move on to another topic.

17       Q.   You, in your evidence in December, described, I think in graphic

18    detail, the attack on the enclave, and you used, on a number of occasions,

19    the word "onslaught," and I suppose you don't resile from a strong word

20    like that, do you?

21       A.   "Onslaught."

22       Q.   That was a word you chose to use on at least two occasions before

23    Christmas.

24       A.   Yeah, yeah, I may have used it.  I don't remember very well, but I

25    may have used it.

Page 19514

 1       Q.   And I want to summarise your description of this onslaught.

 2            On the 6th of July, you said that you heard about 250 ordinance;

 3    7th, 250; the 8th, you said, was the heaviest day.  I don't think you gave

 4    a figure, but clearly it was more than 250; correct?

 5       A.   Correct.

 6       Q.   The 9th, you said you heard over 100, and of course you moved to

 7    Potocari.  And on the 10th, you again heard shells from Potocari.  You

 8    said 100, plus other detonations; and, of course, you were also getting

 9    information from Emir, your yellow card.  Correct?

10       A.   Correct.

11       Q.   So we are talking about something like a thousand shells, are we,

12    falling on Srebrenica in this period?

13       A.   Yeah, around that figure, maybe.

14       Q.   And that's a lot of shells, isn't it?

15       A.   It is.

16       Q.   Did you go to Srebrenica after these events?  In other words, when

17    you left Potocari, you didn't go back to Srebrenica, did you?

18       A.   I went back.

19       Q.   You did?

20       A.   Yes, I did.

21       Q.   So you went back and you saw what damage these thousand shells had

22    caused?

23       A.   Your Honour, the shelling was not just inside the village of

24    Srebrenica.  It was not just in the town.  Where I went was the town, and

25    I saw the kind of damage that was inside there, not necessarily caused by

Page 19515

 1    the 1.000 shells, because the 1.000 shells were not on the Srebrenica town

 2    as the target.

 3       Q.   No, because a good number of these shells were targeted at

 4    surrounding hills, where there were Muslim military encampments; correct?

 5       A.   Some were just missing their targets and hitting the hills, and

 6    that is mentioned also.

 7       Q.   Were there Muslim military encampments in the hills, fighters?

 8       A.   Not that I know of.

 9       Q.   Before I go on with this, did you go to Vukovar after it had been

10    shelled?  Were you in Vukovar at any point in time?

11       A.   Vukovar, yeah.  That was my first station en route.

12       Q.   Yes, exactly.  And were you there after it had been shelled by the

13    Serbs?

14       A.   Yeah, that's when I went there.

15       Q.   What state was it in?

16       A.   A state of disrepair.

17       Q.   Yes.  It was very badly damage?

18       A.   Correct, you are quite right.

19       Q.   Compare Vukovar to the village of Srebrenica after it had been

20    shelled by the Serbs.

21       A.   It's good to compare that, but I don't know whether you know that

22    the kind of damage that was in Vukovar was caused by different things.  I

23    mean, it was not just shelling from outside.  Vukovar, what those people

24    did, they were going into houses and putting mines or detonations and then

25    detonating the whole building.  This is different from mass shelling from

Page 19516

 1    the outside.

 2       Q.   Answer the question.  You said it was good to compare it.  Compare

 3    it, please.

 4       A.   It was --

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

 6            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the witness is trying to answer the

 7    question and, in fact, did answer the question.  I think my friend needs

 8    to just calm down a little bit and keep the temperature a little lower.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we send him outside on the terrace?  Yes, I

10    think you can safely move to the next question, Mr. Josse.  I mean, he's

11    told you that he cannot really draw a comparison because the circumstances

12    would have --

13            MR. JOSSE:  I'll go back to Srebrenica, Mr. Thayer will be

14    relieved to hear.

15       Q.   Let me then ask you:  You went there.  Describe the damage that

16    you saw in Srebrenica after all these days of shelling.

17       A.   Your Honour, Srebrenica was not the same anymore.  It was not the

18    same place that we had left.  A lot of buildings had been freshly damaged,

19    part of the roads were cratered, also the Bravo Company compound had also

20    been cratered, and a lot of other areas.  The PTT building had also been

21    hit, and all those other damages.  The place was very different.  It was

22    not the PTT.  It was not the Srebrenica that we had left, I think, three

23    or four or five days earlier.

24       Q.   I was going to ask you to specify which building you say had been

25    hit.  You say the PTT was hit.  Any others, significant buildings that you

Page 19517

 1    can remember?

 2       A.   The hospital had also been hit.

 3       Q.   In what way?

 4       A.   By a shell.

 5       Q.   Where?

 6       A.   I can't remember the actual location, but it was hit.

 7       Q.   Let's have a look.

 8       A.   And we reported that also.

 9            MR. JOSSE:  Let's have a look at 6D209, please.

10            Your Honour, this is a still from a video of the 14th of July,

11    part of the trial video.

12       Q.   That's the hospital, isn't it?

13       A.   I can't remember it very well now.  It's all those years ago, but

14    at least I can see it. It could be a hospital, itself, yeah.

15       Q.   Where was that building hit, please?

16       A.   I can't remember which place.

17            MR. JOSSE:  6D214, please.

18       Q.   Is that the PTT?

19       A.   I can't recognise it from there.

20            MR. JOSSE:  6D213.

21       Q.   Does that help you at all?  PTT?

22            MR. JOSSE:  I beg your pardon, I'm told that's the police station.

23    I'm sorry, my fault.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Which one, this one or the previous?

25            MR. JOSSE:  This one, this one.

Page 19518

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you recognise it, Colonel, or not?

 2            THE WITNESS:  This one, I don't.  I don't recognize it.

 3            MR. JOSSE:  Let's have a look at 6D210, please.

 4       Q.   Not a great picture, I concede, but that's a bit of a Bravo

 5    compound; correct?

 6       A.   It could be.  It's not very clear, yeah.

 7       Q.   I accept that.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  I certainly wouldn't trust you with mounting a

 9    photography exhibition, Mr. Josse.

10            MR. JOSSE:  No, Your Honour, I concede that.  Perhaps I should

11    have played the video.

12       Q.   Anyway, your recollection is of damage in the way that you've

13    described to the PTT, the hospital?

14       A.   Yeah, the Bravo Company compound.

15       Q.   Could I just ask you this:  Mr. Lazarevic showed you the mortar

16    being fired earlier from the petrol station.  What distance is that petrol

17    station from the hospital?

18       A.   Do I remember?  Really, I cannot.  I can't be able to estimate now

19    for sure.

20       Q.   Presumably, you can't remember what distance it was from the PTT

21    either.

22       A.   Yeah, I can't.  I can't.  I can't visualise where it was.

23       Q.   When you went back, what state was the mosque in?

24       A.   I didn't see the mosque.  I didn't go to the mosque.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

Page 19519

 1            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think the evidence in the case has

 2    shown that there is more than one mosque in Srebrenica, so if my friend

 3    could be a little more specific.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  There is one in town, downtown, and one as you

 5    enter, before you enter Srebrenica.

 6            MR. JOSSE:  It wasn't designed as a trick question.  The witness

 7    could have told us that.

 8       Q.   Did you recall there was more than one mosque, without being

 9    reminded?

10       A.   Yeah, at least I know there are mosques inside the enclave.

11       Q.   I'm suggesting to you that you're exaggerating this damage.  Do

12    you understand that?

13       A.   I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with it,

14    because the damage, I saw to it, and it was different from the way it was

15    before.  After all that shelling, definitely it was different.  I saw it.

16    And though I did not go throughout the whole village, at least where I

17    saw, I could see there was a lot of damage, as compared to how it was when

18    we were there before we left for Potocari.

19       Q.   Were you surprised it wasn't more damage, bearing in mind the

20    extent of the shelling that you have described?

21       A.   Correct.

22       Q.   So it was lucky, Srebrenica, in your estimation?

23       A.   In my estimation, it was lucky.

24       Q.   And you've already said that you take the same view as to the

25    number of wounded and fatalities.  It was surprising there were so few,

Page 19520

 1    bearing in mind the ferocity of the attack?

 2       A.   Correct.

 3       Q.   So coincidence favoured the inhabitants on this occasion?  "Good

 4    fortune," perhaps I should have said.

 5       A.   On what?  I mean --

 6       Q.   I'll move on.  I've asked that question.

 7            Now, I said I was going to come back to the NIOD report.  I want

 8    to take you to another part of it, please.

 9            MR. JOSSE: If I might have a moment.  I think it may be on the

10    ELMO.  I hope so.  No, it's not, it's bare.  I beg your pardon.

11            Again, Madam Usher, you're going to have to stand by the ELMO. My

12    apologies, please.

13       Q.   We've got part 4, the repercussion and the aftermath until the end

14    of 1995.  This is part of Chapter 4:  "Potocari-Dutch-Bat and the fate of

15    the local population."  This is section 24 which deals with observations

16    and reports by the UNMOs.

17            You might want to read that first page perhaps to yourself so that

18    you are fully aware of what knowledge the author of this report gained

19    about your role, in effect.

20            Whilst you are doing that, to summarise, the first paragraph

21    really deals with the role of UNMO in general, and the second paragraph

22    specifically deals with UNMO involvement in the events in Srebrenica, and

23    explains what should have happened, at least in theory.

24            When you finish, say so.

25       A.   Yeah, I've read.

Page 19521

 1            MR. JOSSE: Just turn the page, please.

 2       Q.   I'm going to read the next paragraph and ask you some

 3    questions:  "The reality of the UNMO activities during the last days of

 4    Srebrenica was rather less rosy.  When the attack began, there were three

 5    UNMOs in the enclave."

 6            That's correct, isn't it?

 7       A.   That's correct.

 8       Q.  "Three others had left on June 24th to be rotated, but the VRS did

 9    not allow their replacements to enter the enclave."

10            You've told us about that already, haven't you?

11       A.   Correct.

12       Q.  "Many Dutch soldiers, including the battalion's commanding

13    officers, later criticised the three remaining UNMOs in Srebrenica."

14            Are you now aware, Colonel, that you have been criticised by

15    Dutch-Bat in the way that this report describes, or was this the first

16    time you've learnt of it?

17       A.   This is the -- the first time I'm learning about it, but we could

18    also criticise them.  They failed in very many areas.  They are the ones

19    who failed the enclave.  So it's not a matter of them criticising us.  We

20    were doing our job, and we did it well.

21       Q.   Let's go on:  "They complain," this is Dutch-Bat, "about their,"

22    that is UNMO's "'invisibility,' tendency to hold back, and even fear in

23    monitoring and reporting the events during the crucial days of the fall of

24    the enclave and what happened afterwards."

25            What do you say about that allegation that Dutch-Bat, certain

Page 19522

 1    members of it, has made against you?

 2       A.   That is very inaccurate.  In actual fact, we were the main force

 3    in the enclave, and they were even depending on us to escort them.  We

 4    were the ones who were monitoring the whole enclave, when these guys had

 5    gone back to the battalion headquarters.  In fact, we were left out there

 6    to monitor whatever activities were happening.

 7            And even in some of the reports somewhere, I've written that we

 8    were left alone and we were in soft-skinned vehicles, and we were

 9    patrolling the enclave alone.  And in fact, at that time, we were just

10    two, not three, because that one, a Dutch, was already in Dutch-Bat

11    compound.  In fact, when the shelling started, and even about a week

12    before that, we were only two military observers, me and Major David

13    Tetteh.  The other one, Dehan, was in the Dutch-Bat compound.

14            So considering the actual situation at that time, you can see we

15    were doing our work, and we were monitored.  We were everywhere.  It's

16    only that we were limited by the number that we had, two.  In fact, we did

17    not even form a patrol.  A patrol team was supposed to be two and one

18    interpreter, and that is one; and then you get another two and an

19    interpreter together.  You move out together.

20            But here, we ourselves were separating.  We were leaving one

21    observer in the offices, and we could put one observer in the vehicle, and

22    an interpreter, to form like a team.  Does that mean cowardice or fear?

23    You going out there, knowing that you are alone as an observer.   We were

24    patrolling and coming back and giving reports, even during the fighting.

25    When the shelling was continuing, we were going out there.  We could leave

Page 19523

 1    one person inside the office, and we go out.

 2            So what they are saying here, this is not true at all.  Maybe

 3    they're just trying to justify their own failures.  As far as I'm

 4    concerned, we did our job to the best of our ability, considering the

 5    limitations that we had.

 6       Q.   Well, I'm going to go through other parts of this.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  For how much longer?

 8            MR. JOSSE:  I'd like to go through the rest of this page,

 9    Your Honour.  But, I mean, the witness gave a very long answer.  I'm not

10    going to stop him.  If the Chamber feels that the answers are --

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  But how much more time do you require, because you

12    have exceeded the one hour already.

13            MR. JOSSE:  I'd say 15 minutes to go through the rest of this

14    page, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's make it ten, please.

16            MR. JOSSE:

17       Q.   I'll go on:  "Karremans," who was the commander, "as well as

18    Franken," who was his deputy, "accused the UNMOs of not taking greater

19    advantage of their special position and wider mandate to at least try to

20    follow the events better."

21            What do you say about that?

22       A.   That is all false.

23       Q.  "In Karremans' eyes, they could have followed convoys by car; or at

24    the start of the evacuation, they can stand in the middle of Bratunac, so

25    to speak.  Moreover, the UNMOs would even have been able to use the excuse

Page 19524

 1    that their second office was in Bratunac, at the Hotel Fontana."

 2            What do you say about that?

 3       A.   That is a flat lie.  It is a flat lie, and I don't know.  Whoever

 4    was writing this, whoever gave this, really was just trying to justify his

 5    position by discrediting others or he was under pressure.  This is someone

 6    who was under pressure somewhere, because UNMOs were all the time in their

 7    area of responsibility.

 8            When we were not, after we left Srebrenica and we went to

 9    Dutch-Bat, in fact, we were scattered in the whole of that area to cover

10    the whole -- the whole place.  And even when there were meetings, we would

11    go to those meetings.  And in fact, calling Bratunac our second office,

12    that is an insult.  It is an insult, because Bratunac, we went there I

13    think only twice for meetings which had been requested by the BSA.

14            So this is someone who is trying to, I think, divert attention

15    from their own failures.  Karremans failed.  That is a fact.

16       Q.   Okay.  Well, it goes on, in fairness to the report, to say

17    that:  "Conversely, the UNMOs complained especially about the poor

18    information that they received from the battalion, something that is

19    supposed to have hampered their activities.  Even early on July 12, they

20    already reported their frustration about having been ignored in

21    consultations between Dutch-Bat and other aid organisations.

22            "'They tell us outright we are not required.  We feel

23    frustrated.'" However, that may already have been the result of a loss of

24    credibility at the time.  Dutch-Bat personnel, as well as local staff,

25    complained about the fact that the UNMOs made their own job more difficult

Page 19525

 1    by leaving their office at the post office in Srebrenica quite early in

 2    the piece, on July the 9th."

 3            In other words, they're suggesting you ran rather too early.

 4    Isn't that right?

 5       A.   That is not right.  We never ran from our headquarters, and we

 6    were giving constant information to the UN headquarters concerning the

 7    state of the enclave and about the enclosure -- I mean, the encroachment

 8    of the enclave by the tanks from the BSA.  And when they were within range

 9    of our PTT building, about two kilometres or so, that is the time we

10    decided to leave.  By that time, it was very risky to continue staying

11    there, and especially when these are a tank which can get a direct hit.

12    That is not something to joke around with.

13            So we feared for our safety, and it is on record.  It is recorded

14    that we decided to request that we be allowed to leave our PTT building.

15    We requested the UN, through the normal UNMO channels, and they agreed

16    that according to the circumstances at that time, we can leave.  That is

17    not fear, that is not running away.  That is actually going to a safer

18    place.

19            And even after that, the BiH prevented us from leaving, but we

20    requested them further, and it is on record also that later is the time

21    they agreed to let us leave.  By that time, the tanks were very close,

22    less than two kilometres away.  So do you stay there until you're hit, and

23    people start praising you for having been killed?  No, we could not do

24    that.  So we decided that our safe bet was to go to the Dutch-Bat

25    compound, which, to us, was slightly safer.

Page 19526

 1            And by the way, when saying that we were scared and they were not,

 2    how many OPs had been closed at that time?  Why did they run away from the

 3    BSA?

 4       Q.   Well, the author of this report doesn't, sadly, agree with you,

 5    because it goes on to say that:  "At the time the UNMOs left Srebrenica in

 6    a great hurry, one of them, De Haan, was already in the compound at

 7    Potocari," and you've told us that.

 8            So moving on a few lines:  "The remaining UNMOs, Kingori and

 9    Tetteh, already joined him on July the 9th, when things got too hot for

10    them and they left the compound again only after the fall of the enclave."

11            Would you agree with that characterisation, that you left when

12    things got, quote "too hot" for you?

13       A.   That is true.  That is exactly what I mean, but also look at where

14    they say that they left the compound again only after the fall of the

15    enclave.  Is that true, even to yourself?  Did you read the report, that I

16    went back to Srebrenica itself, that I was out -- we were outside the

17    compound, talking to the BSA, monitoring what was happening out there?

18            So what do they mean by inside, that we just stayed inside?  This

19    is a distortion.

20       Q.   It then goes on and says that it didn't make a very good

21    impression that you sent your yellow card back, and then the last sentence

22    on this page says:  "Some Dutch-Bat soldiers like to call the UNMOs

23     'UNBOs,' standing for 'UN Bunker Observers,' because 'when something had

24    to be observed, these people were sitting in the bunkers.'".

25            You were scared, and the Dutch-Bat characterisation of you, as

Page 19527

 1    someone sitting in a bunker is accurate, sadly, isn't it, Colonel?

 2       A.   Your Honour, this is a distortion of the truth.  This is actually

 3    directly the opposite of what we did.  We were able to go around the whole

 4    enclave.  And even during this, this incursion, we were able to monitor

 5    what was happening.  We reported, and it's evidenced by the reports that

 6    we made, the counting of those shells.  Going out to analyse, does that

 7    mean staying in the bunker?

 8            Do you analyse when you are in a bunker?  It is in the report that

 9    we analysed the craters, did the reports, grid references, and all that.

10    You are not doing that inside the bunker.  So I'm sure you also do not

11    believe what is written here.

12            MR. JOSSE:  Thank you very much.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Josse.

14            Mr. Ostojic.

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Not more than 30 minutes, please.

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, sir.

18                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic.

19       Q.   Colonel, as you know, my name is John Ostojic, and I represent the

20    Mr. Ljubisa Beara.  Good afternoon to you, sir.

21       A.   Thank you, sir.

22       Q.   Thank you.  I just want confirm a couple of things from reading

23    your reports or your report of 1997 and your testimony here, sir.

24            Can you confirm to me that you never met Mr. Ljubisa Beara during

25    July of 1995?

Page 19528

 1       A.   Your Honour, I don't remember meeting someone of that name.

 2       Q.   So can you confirm that you never heard of his name during the

 3    period of July 1995?

 4       A.   Your Honour, that name is not familiar to me.

 5       Q.   Sir, in your September 1997 report that you reviewed prior to

 6    giving your testimony in December of last year, can you confirm that you

 7    also never mentioned Mr. Ljubisa Beara in that report during the interview

 8    that you gave to the Prosecutor from the ICTY?

 9       A.   Your Honour, I'm not familiar with that.  I don't remember that

10    name at all.

11       Q.   And one last question with respect to specifically Mr. Beara.  Can

12    you confirm in the diary that you brought with you this past Tuesday that

13    nowhere in that report do you reference or mention the name of Mr. Beara;

14    is that correct?

15       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I don't.  I have not mentioned him.

16       Q.   Now, I want to ask you a couple questions about these three

17    colonels that you mentioned in your statement and some of which is in your

18    diary.  That would be Colonel Vukovic; Colonel Drcic, D-R-C-I-C, as you've

19    identified him in your sit reports and in your statement of 1997; and a

20    Colonel Acamovic.  Do you remember those three colonels?

21       A.   Yes, I do, Your Honour.

22       Q.   And in the interests of time, sir, if I can just -- or if you can

23    help me understand this, you saw and met Colonel Acamovic around July 12th

24    and 13th, 1995; correct?

25       A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

Page 19529

 1       Q.   And did you see him at any time after the 13th of July, 19 1995?

 2       A.   I don't remember the actual date, but at least he was there, and I

 3    don't -- I don't know.  I don't know.  I can't remember whether I met him

 4    after that, really, Your Honour.

 5       Q.   Can you describe for Your Honours what this colonel looked like?

 6    Was he an older man, younger man, middle-aged?  Given that he's a Colonel,

 7    would you assume that maybe he was in his 50s?

 8       A.   Yeah, of course, all colonels are in their 50s.  I am one.  But he

 9    was like -- he was a bit older.

10       Q.   Tall or short, sir?

11       A.   Acamovic, I think this is someone I really cannot be able to

12    describe properly.

13       Q.   What about grey hair?  Do you remember the colour of his hair;

14    grey, black, blonde?

15       A.   I can't.  It's out of my mind.

16       Q.   And other characteristics such as eyeglasses?  Do you remember

17    whether he wore any eyeglasses?

18       A.   No, I can't right on this.  It's blank.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Let's talk about the other colonel, D-R-C-I-C, as

20    you've spelled his name before and as reflected in your report.  This

21    Colonel Drcic, do you remember what he looked like?  Was he taller or

22    shorter than yourself, sir?

23       A.   Drcic.  You know, the two, I normally confuse them, Colonel Drcic

24    and Colonel Acamovic.  I normally confuse them because I didn't have a lot

25    of interaction with them, not very much.  But I can't remember which one

Page 19530

 1    was slightly taller than me.  There was one that was slightly taller than

 2    me and the other one shorter, but I can't remember which one.  Drcic, I

 3    think, is also in my report, but I would not be able to describe him.  I

 4    cannot remember him very well.

 5       Q.   But do you recall if he had grey hair, sir, or the colour of his

 6    hair at all?

 7       A.   No, I can't.

 8       Q.   Okay.  And do you recall if he had any other distinguishing

 9    characteristics, such as eyeglasses or a balding or receding hairline?

10       A.   No, I can't.

11       Q.   Now, you were one of the military observers.  These meetings that

12    you had with Colonel Vukovic -- I'm sorry, with General Acamovic and

13    Colonel Vukovic, they were rather important, were they not?

14       A.   The what?

15       Q.   The meetings that you had or when you met them, those were

16    important encounters, were they not?

17       A.   They were.  They were important in contrast.

18       Q.   And you don't describe them at all in your statement of 1997, and

19    you don't describe them at all in your sit reports; is that correct?

20       A.   I have described Acamovic, I think.

21       Q.   In terms of physical description, I am asking think, sir?

22       A.   Yes, I think I described Acamovic; but Drcic, I would not be able

23    to describe him.

24       Q.   How about the third colonel, which is Colonel Vukovic, can you

25    describe him better for you than what you have in your statement of

Page 19531

 1    September 1997?

 2       A.   Yes, Acamovic [sic], I can remember very well.  I think he was

 3    slightly , not very at all, slightly taller than me.

 4       Q.   Let me just interrupt you.  I'm actually talking about Colonel

 5    Vukovic now.  I thought we already covered Acamovic.

 6            Just so the record is clear, you started by saying that you

 7    remember Acamovic very well, and I just want to make sure I'm correct on

 8    this.

 9       A.   Vukovic.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  He said Vukovic, not Acamovic.  Vukovic.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:  Just on line 5, it says"Acamovic," that is why I

12    reference it, Your Honour.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's a mistake.  I really wasn't following the

14    transcript, but I heard him distinctly mention --

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  That's why I pointed out just the word clearly, Your

16    Honour.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay. Thank you.

18            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, sir.

19            THE WITNESS:  Vukovic, I would be able to describe him.  As I

20    said, I saw him, I can remember him, and he was slightly taller than me.

21    At that time, I was giving him the age of 50.  But when I reached 50, I

22    think he looked slightly older than me.  So he was round-faced, sort of,

23    and I think he had a mark somewhere.  I can't remember very well.  He was

24    very forceful when talking.  When he's talking to you, he's a bit

25    forceful.

Page 19532

 1       Q.   Do you remember if he had grey hair or not, sir, or a receding

 2    hairline?

 3       A.   The hair, no.  I just remember the face.  The hair, I can't

 4    remember how it was.

 5       Q.   And you say it was a round, large face that you remember for

 6    Colonel Vukovic; correct?

 7       A.   Yeah.  He was slightly round, round-faced.

 8       Q.   Okay.  Now, let me also ask you, if you remember, during the

 9    September 1997 interview, you recall that you were at a meeting with a

10    person by the name of "Miroslav Drnic" [phoen].  Do you remember that?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And in that meeting, there were two colonels present, were there

13    not?

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   And can you tell me, sir, to the best of your recollection, who

16    those two colonels were?

17       A.   I'm not very sure.

18       Q.   Just quickly, if I read to you from your September 1997 report, on

19    page 12, you reference Colonel Drcic and Colonel Vukovic.  Would that be

20    accurate?

21       A.   It is possible.  Those two could have been there.

22       Q.   If we look at your sit report, which was an attachment to your

23    September 1997 report, Attachment, I think, number 26, it references those

24    two colonels; correct?  Do you remember that?

25       A.   Yeah, I think it references the two.

Page 19533

 1       Q.   Thank you.  One last area, if I may, just to cover with you:  When

 2    we discussed, sir, in your testimony previously the willingness of the

 3    Bosnian Muslims to leave the enclave, you used terms such as "refugees,"

 4     "displaced persons," et cetera.  Do you remember that, generally

 5    speaking?

 6       A.   Yeah, generally, I used those words.

 7       Q.   Now, do you recall, sir, in one of your sit reports dated the 8th

 8    of July, 1995, that you give a breakdown of the number of inhabitants in

 9    Srebrenica?

10       A.   Yes, I do.  We give that.

11       Q.   And as you sit here, do you remember why you called the people

12    within Srebrenica in July of 1995 as refugees or displaced persons?

13       A.   I don't know whether the words were used correctly.  I don't know

14    whether it was correct or not, but most of the people inside the enclave

15    were not living in their own natural habitats.  Some of them were moved

16    from areas that they were living in before to other areas.  A good example

17    would be the [indiscernible] village, where people have built some houses

18    and were taken there.  Those are not their normal habitats. That's not

19    where they were living before, so that is why I mentioned, I used those

20    words.

21       Q.   And when you say "most," sir, would I be correct to interpret that

22    to be 80 to 85 per cent were actually people who were displaced into

23    Srebrenica in July or immediately prior to that of 1995?

24       A.   That is the type of background that is not with me at the moment,

25    whether they were actually there from the outside or whether they were

Page 19534

 1    actually in or displaced or taken to different areas.

 2       Q.   Well, how do you -- what is your definition of the word "locals"?

 3    If people were locals, would that indicate that they were people that were

 4    actually from the very area upon which we're discussing?

 5       A.  "Locals," it depends on the perspective you are saying it, because

 6    if like when we are here, the locals are the people who belong here, but

 7    it can be these -- this town, this building, it can be.  So for that, I

 8    don't remember what --

 9       Q.   Thank you.  What percentage of the Srebrenica population, in July

10    of 1995, were locals?

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Colonel, if you know, you know.  If you don't know,

12    tell us you don't know.

13            THE WITNESS:  I don't know that one.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  Let's look at 65 ter 493, please, which is your UNMO

15    report dated the 8th of July, 1995, which was attachment number 1 to your

16    statement in September of 1997.

17       Q.   Do you remember that report, sir?

18       A.   Yeah, I remember this report.

19       Q.   And just looking on the subject, it talks about the food situation

20    in Srebrenica and the status for food to the civilian population.

21    Immediately below that, under number 1, it talks about the number and

22    status of inhabitants.  Do you see that?

23       A.   Yes, I see it.

24       Q.   And under B, I mean, there is subsection (a), but under (b) you

25    talk about 85 per cent of the people who are there are refugees or

Page 19535

 1    displaced persons; and under (c), you say 20 per cent as being locals.

 2            Do you see that?

 3       A.   Yes, I do.

 4       Q.   Would that be accurate, to be your knowledge, that this an UNMO --

 5       A.   This could be accurate.

 6       Q.   Pardon me?

 7       A.   This could be accurate.

 8       Q.   Just to make sure we are be accurate, 85 and 20 is a little more

 9    than 100 per cent, isn't it?

10       A.   I know that's the percentage, but that could have been, you know,

11    a typographical error.

12       Q.   And that's why in my question earlier to you, I suggested, it was

13    80 to 85 per cent were people who were refugees or displaced persons, as

14    the UNMO report reflects on the 8th of July 1995.  Would that sound about

15    accurate?

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   And isn't it true, sir, that the 80 to 85 per cent of the people,

18    not being from the enclave in Srebrenica, had no willingness to continue

19    remain in that enclave for any period of time?  Isn't that what you

20    observed, sir?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   You didn't observe that?

23       A.   We didn't observe that they didn't want to stay there.

24       Q.   You observed that they wanted to stay there?

25       A.   As far as they were concerned and according to what we were seeing

Page 19536

 1    and getting from them is that they wanted to continue living inside the

 2    enclave.

 3       Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much, Colonel.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

 5            You have -- we need to finish as soon as possible, because I don't

 6    want to create problems for the interpreters and technicians, et cetera,

 7    so try to limit yourself as much as you can, please.

 8            MR. THAYER:  I will, Mr. President.

 9                          Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

10       Q.   Good afternoon, Colonel.

11       A.   Good afternoon, sir.

12       Q.   And happy new year.

13       A.   Happy new year to you, too.

14       Q.   I think it's going to get happier soon for you, I hope.

15       A.   Maybe tomorrow, when I go back.

16       Q.   Sir, you testified that you tried to inspect the Dutch-Bat Bravo

17    Company compound in Srebrenica because you had received a report that it

18    had been shelled.  Do you recall that testimony, sir?

19       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

20       Q.   Do you recall the precise source of that report or information?

21       A.   That shelling, we had been told by -- by Emir.  Emir is the one

22    who told us that it had been shelled.

23       Q.   And when you refer to the B Company compound being cratered, what

24    are you referring to specifically, sir?

25       A.   Your Honour, what I'm referring to is that there were shells that

Page 19537

 1    landed, that hit that particular place, and my main point is that from the

 2    BSA, they shelled that place.

 3       Q.   Now, you were shown and asked questions based upon the statement

 4    of Hasan Nuhanovic, sir?

 5       A.   Yes, Your Honour.

 6       Q.   I want to just turn your attention to a couple of portions.

 7            MR. THAYER:  This is 1D451.

 8       Q.   Now, to save time, sir, you -- do you recall testifying about a

 9    series of sitreps which you authored on the 8th, one of which my friend

10    just showed, and on the 9th of July, which you transmitted from

11    Srebrenica?  Do you remember that, sir?  Do you remember those reports?

12       A.   Correct, Your Honour.

13       Q.   You were asked some questions about whether you were in fact in

14    Srebrenica on the 8th of July.  I just want to ask you:  Do you have any

15    reason to doubt the accuracy of those reports or your recollection about

16    the date on which those reports were written and issued?

17       A.   No, sir.

18       Q.   Now, I want to turn your attention to page 2, the second page of

19    Mr. Nuhanovic's statement, and particularly if we could look at the

20    paragraph that begins:  "On 10 July ..."

21            "On 10 July, my colleague Emir Suljagic, who evacuated with the

22    UNMOs on 8 July to the Dutch-Bat compound, returned to the PTT building

23    alone.  He had walked six kilometres and brought with him a military map

24    and a Motorola radio.  He said the UNMOs gave him the radio and map since

25    he voluntarily wanted to come back to Srebrenica in order to report what

Page 19538

 1    was happening in the town.

 2            "We used the map to determine the coordinates of the BSA positions

 3    and impact points of the shelling.  We radioed the information to the

 4    UNMOs."

 5            My question, Colonel, is:  Other than the date of 8 July, which

 6    Mr. Hasan Nuhanovic has obviously recalled your withdrawal from

 7    Srebrenica, how does this passage comport with your recollection of these

 8    events?

 9       A.   First of all, the date, 8th July, is not when we left Srebrenica.

10    We left Srebrenica on 9th of July.

11            Secondly, we never gave -- we never got any reports from Hasan at

12    all.  The reports we got from one of the -- I mean, we got reports from

13    Emir Suljagic.  That is the one who gave us reports.

14       Q.   And do you recall learning at any time that Mr. Hasan Nuhanovic

15    was spending time with Emir in the process of gathering this information?

16    If you don't, that's fine.  If you do, please let us know whether you --

17    whether you recall such information?

18       A.   Not at all, we never got to know that.

19       Q.   Now, I want to turn your attention to page 4.  Specifically, in

20    the middle of the paragraph that begins:  "In the morning, around 0600

21    hours ..."

22            This is describing events on the 11th of July: "The parking lot of

23    the Bravo Company was crowded with people.  Two shells landed in the

24    center of the compound.  The explosions were very strong.  I saw five or

25    six people laying on the ground in blood.  Later, I saw the Dutch doctors

Page 19539

 1    trying to operate a boy.  I saw a woman die at the entrance of the bunker.

 2    People panicked, screamed, and yelled at the Dutch for help."

 3            Sir, how does this portion of Mr. Hasan Nuhanovic's statement

 4    comport, if at all, with whatever the report was that you received from

 5    Emir regarding the shelling of the Bravo Company compound which you

 6    investigated on the 13th of July, when you returned to Srebrenica?

 7       A.   This compares favorably, at least it's a bit of what we were told

 8    by Emir concerning the -- the shelling of that place.

 9            MR. THAYER:  If we may, I'd like to take a look at 5D3, please.

10       Q.   Colonel, you were shown this document by, I believe, more than one

11    of my friends during their cross-examination.  To keep it short, it was

12    authored by Ramiz Becirovic and describes and takes credit for several

13    acts of sabotage by the ABiH, which resulted in significant casualties to

14    Serbs.  Do you recall that -- those questions on cross-examination, sir?

15       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

16            MR. THAYER:  If we may look at page 2 of this document,

17    specifically paragraph 4, please.

18       Q.   About midway through this paragraph, Colonel, it describes, as

19    opposed to a couple of unsuccessful infiltrations attempted by the VRS,

20    Mr. Becirovic describes a 24 June 1995 infiltration through a mine

21    corridor from the Sase lead mine.  Would you please just read that portion

22    to yourself, and I want to ask you a couple questions about it.

23       A.   Yeah, I've read it.

24       Q.   Now, Mr. Becirovic does not take credit for this act in this

25    document, sir.  I want to ask you:  You were asked some questions about an

Page 19540

 1    attack from outside the enclave, inside the enclave, which resulted in

 2    some -- a death and some injuries on the 24th of June, and I believe my

 3    friend Madame Fauveau showed you an UNPROFOR report concerning that

 4    attack.  Do you recall that, sir?

 5       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

 6       Q.   Based on a review of this paragraph, can you tell us whether or

 7    not your recollection is that this attack described herein, which

 8    Mr. Becirovic attributes to the BSA, is the same incident which you

 9    investigated and which was the subject matter of Madame Fauveau's

10    questions on the Dutch-Bat report?

11       A.   Your Honour, it is the one, as I can see.

12       Q.   I want to ask you a couple of brief questions about this debrief

13    that was conducted 24 July 1995.

14            MR. THAYER: If we may be shown 1D470, please.

15       Q.   Paragraph 1 states that: "There were no trained debriefers present

16    and the meeting was held in an informal atmosphere."

17            Colonel, were you aware that the person who was interviewing you

18    was not a trained debriefer?

19       A.   Yes, Your Honour, we knew he was not a trained one.

20       Q.   If we look at paragraph 3, in the middle, it states that:  "Where

21    possible, the exact wording has been maintained, although it has

22    been 'translated' from direct speech of a conversational nature in a

23    situation where English was not the mother tongue."

24            Does that comport with your recollection, sir, or not?

25       A.   It does.  It does, Your Honour.

Page 19541

 1       Q.   If we look at paragraph 1, it notes that the debrief occurred from

 2    0945 to 1130 hours.  How would you describe the thoroughness of this

 3    debrief, sir?

 4       A.   Your Honour, this debrief was very basic, very basic, in that it

 5    did not carry out everything.  Not everything was asked, not everything

 6    was given, and it was sort of ad hoc.  It's like they just wanted to

 7    finish with us and we go home.

 8       Q.   Did you have your sitreps with you during this debrief, Colonel?

 9       A.   No, Your Honour.

10       Q.   And until today, have you ever seen this document before, sir, or

11    been given at that opportunity to review it?

12       A.   Your Honour, this is the first time I'm seeing this document.

13       Q.   And while we're on the topic of interviews and reports, sir, my

14    friend spent a great deal of time recounting to you the assessments of

15    others about your performance during the events of the attack on the

16    Srebrenica enclave.

17            I want to turn your attention to a couple of sections which my

18    friend didn't recite to you and ask you to respond in the same manner that

19    you were asked to respond --

20       A.   Okay.

21       Q.   -- to the attacks on your performance and courage.

22            Page 4 of this document reads: "The one UNMO who appears to have

23    been most active in those days after the fall was the Kenyan major,

24    J. Kingori.  He could, in fact, be seen in the film images made on July

25    12th after the entry of the Serb troops and Mladic.  He was also the one

Page 19542

 1    who asked them why the men were being separated.

 2            "At Franken's request, he watched the white house on July 13th to

 3    check whether the number of men who were led in corresponded with the

 4    number who came out.  And as Dutch-Bat soldier Kerman wrote in his diary,

 5    Kingori also protected continually against the brutal manner in which

 6    people were packed together in the buses."

 7            How does this passage comport, sir, with your recollection of

 8    these events?

 9       A.   Your Honour, I think that is the most accurate description of what

10    we did and what I personally did in the enclave.

11       Q.   If we turn to page 7 of the document, there's another passage

12    which my friend failed to cite to you; and that is:

13             "The things that Kingori now says that he has seen appear to have

14    been confirmed by other sources."

15       A.   Yeah, that's correct.

16       Q.   Sir, other than your sitreps and the notebook which you recently

17    reviewed, and the documents that you and I reviewed during proofing which

18    I've enumerated for my friends, what is the basis for your testimony, for

19    your recollection in court today?

20       A.   Your Honour, I'm using what I know, what I did when I was there,

21    what I saw, what we discussed, and also what we sent to the UNMO

22    headquarters.  This is a pure truth, as far as I can recollect.

23       Q.   Now, one last question, sir.  Do you recall where the former OP

24    Echo was located in the enclave; to the north, south, east, or west, sir?

25    Do you recall?

Page 19543

 1       A.   It's a difficult one.  OP Echo, I really cannot -- I think it was

 2    to the -- to the west, to the -- yeah, to the west, I think.  I'm not very

 3    sure, but I think it's to the west.

 4       Q.   Okay.  Do you recall what you told the OTP in 1997 about any BSA

 5    complaints about the Muslims' military activity within the enclave?  Do

 6    you recall precisely what you told the investigator at that time?

 7       A.   Your Honour, I can't -- I can't remember now.

 8            MR. THAYER:  All right.  One last document, if we may, 1D351,

 9    please.  And if we may turn to page 4 of the English.  There we go, and

10    we'll be focusing on the large paragraph about halfway down the page.

11       Q.   It begins:  "At one occasion ...," and in the paragraph you

12    discuss the dinner meeting you had with Colonel Vukovic.  I just want to

13    read to you what this witness statement says:

14            "During all these meetings, on some occasions the BSA complained

15    about BiH strikes on the east and southeast of the enclave.  During the

16    four months of my stay, I do not remember having ever heard any complaint

17    of the BSA about the fact that Serb civilians had been killed or injured

18    by the Muslims from the enclave."

19            Sir, did you make this statement to the investigators in 1997?

20       A.   Yes, Your Honour, I did.

21       Q.   Is it accurate?

22       A.   It is accurate, Your Honour.

23            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Colonel.  I have no further questions.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We haven't got questions from the Bench,

25    which means your testimony ends here.

Page 19544

 1            Colonel, I thank you for having come over to give -- to continue

 2    and finish your testimony, and on behalf of everyone I wish you a safe

 3    journey back home.  Thank you.

 4            THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  With your indulgence, shall we leave the exhibits

 6    for Monday.  And the reason is I am getting concerned about the length of

 7    time that we have kept the interpreters, in particular, here.

 8            So thank you, Colonel.  You may leave the courtroom.

 9            But before we adjourn, again I wish that also what I'm going to

10    say be communicated to the Registrar and the head of the CNSS.  You've

11    been extremely forthcoming and cooperative, all of you, interpreters,

12    technicians, reporters, and of course last but not least certainly

13    counsel, and the accused themselves, and the security guards.  We've kept

14    you here for a long time, so I thank you all, and we appreciate all you

15    have done.  We also wish you a nice weekend. Thank you.

16                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.49 p.m.,

17                          to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of

18                          January, 2008.