Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19859

 1                          Thursday, 17 January 2008

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you.

 7            Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9    number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes.

11            All the accused are here.  The composition of the Prosecution and

12    Defence is exactly the same as yesterday.  There is only Mr. Meek absent.

13            All right.  Mr. Butler is already in the courtroom.  The five

14    experts, let me count them, are here.  Okay.  We can start.

15            Mr. McCloskey.

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning, everyone.

17                          WITNESS:  RICHARD BUTLER [Resumed]

18                          Examination by Mr. McCloskey:  [Continued]

19       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Butler.  We left off where we were still in our

20    chronology of July the 12th.

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go to 65 ter 149.

22       Q.   That should be 51 in your binder, and this is a document entitled

23    "The Command of the Drina Corps, Intelligence Department."  It's now

24    coming up.  12 July.

25            We see a stamp on the back:  "Received at 2150 hours" in the

Page 19860

 1    evening, and this is under the name of General Tolimir, and it is to the

 2    Pribicevac IKM, attention General Krstic, and the Bratunac IKM, attention

 3    Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic.

 4            Now, Mr. Butler, if you know, the Pribicevac IKM, on the evening

 5    of 12 July, is General Krstic -- where is General Krstic, if you know,

 6    relating to the IKM?

 7       A.   The IKM in Pribicevac was still functional on the evening of

 8    12 July.  It was not shut down until the morning of 13th July, so the

 9    equipment and personnel from that forward command post could then move

10    back through Vlasenica and then redeploy and set up again in preparation

11    for the Zepa operation.

12            General Krstic is still getting -- he's getting his information

13    from one of two means at that one; either, one, he's personally at the

14    IKM, or he also has the alternative of receiving information from the

15    communications centre at the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.

16       Q.   All right.  And can you offer an opinion as to where General

17    Tolimir would have been when he authored or signed off on this document?

18       A.   Given that this document was originated out of the Drina Corps

19    Intelligence Department and has a Drina Corps index number, the first

20    prefix is 17, and the slash, then 897, looking at the message traffic from

21    the Intelligence and Security Branch of the Drina Corps, that 17 prefix is

22    their number.  I believe that General Tolimir is at the headquarters of

23    the Drina Corps in Vlasenica when this message is authored.

24       Q.   Okay.  And we see that the first five paragraphs seem to refer to

25    the VRS picking up radio talk over Muslims in the Ravni Buljin area or in

Page 19861

 1    the woods, which I won't ask you about.

 2            Near the bottom of the first page in both documents, General

 3    Tolimir says that all electronic surveillance of these units should focus

 4    on monitoring the communication of those Muslim groups.  It gives them the

 5    frequency.

 6            Then we see, at the bottom of the page, "The OBP organs," which

 7    has been translated as, at the top of the page, to the Intelligence and

 8    Security Departments.

 9            "The OBP organs of the brigade commands will propose to the

10    commanders of the units positioned along the line of withdrawal of

11    elements of the routed 28th Muslim Division from Srebrenica to undertake

12    all measures," and then something, "and to capture the enemy soldiers."

13            Now, we probably all recall, from a few documents ago, there was a

14    similar suggestion, but it mentioned the Intelligence Department.  This

15    now says "Intelligence and Security."  Does that have any significance for

16    you?

17       A.   Well, sir, again, the intelligence officers, by function, you

18    know, would be the individuals who would be responsible for gathering

19    information from the prisoners of war, from interrogations, as well as the

20    radio intercepts that the VRS is doing, as well as other sources, to have

21    the best situation.  Now, in some cases, as we've noted, in the light

22    infantry brigades, even though the functions were, by order, supposed to

23    be separate, there was no practical way to do that, so -- because of

24    manning shortages in some of the units.

25            So I read this along the same general line that intelligence and

Page 19862

 1    security officers, in this context, are interchangeable.  Both officers

 2    are going to be keeping apprised of the information related to the enemy;

 3    and whoever is available to do that, if there's only one officer,

 4    regardless of his position, now, he is to propose to the commander, you

 5    know, based on what his knowledge of the enemy situation is, where

 6    potential ambush sites might be or where gaps in the line might be.

 7            So this is a reflection of the duties that one would expect an

 8    intelligence officer, and if not one was available, a security officer

 9    would undertake.

10       Q.   All right.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to, in B/C/S, page 2, as well as English

12    page 2.

13       Q.   There's a couple more paragraphs talking about, if we can read it

14    to ourselves, some of the Muslim motivations, in their view.  But what I

15    wanted to focus you on is this paragraph that begins:  "Although it is

16    very important to arrest as many members of the shattered Muslim units as

17    possible, or liquidate date them if they resist ..."

18            Now, this is the part I want to ask you about:  "... It is equally

19    important to note down the names of all men fit for military service who

20    are being evacuated from the UNPROFOR base in Potocari."

21            What do you make of that last remark?

22       A.   That last remark is that General Tolimir, at this particular point

23    in time, for whatever reason, hasn't been informed that what's going to

24    really happen at Potocari is that there's not going to be a systematic

25    screening process where they're going to be doing this.

Page 19863

 1            When we look back in the context of the time that this message is

 2    out and what we actually say happening in Potocari, the men's

 3    identifications are being taken away from them.  They're not being

 4    systematically catalogued.  General Tolimir is still operating under the

 5    impression, from the context of this message, that that, in fact, is

 6    supposed to be taking, and reminding them that it's supposed to be taking

 7    place in Potocari.

 8       Q.   Now, again, going back to the Prosecution's position that it's at

 9    this time there has been a decision made by the VRS to murder those men,

10    if that is, in fact, the case, what would this indicate regarding General

11    Tolimir's knowledge of that?

12       A.   At face value, it indicates that General Tolimir hasn't been read

13    in to the real plan yet.

14       Q.   Is there any -- do you have any indication in documents subsequent

15    to this that that may have changed, his knowledge?

16       A.   Yes, sir, I believe I do.

17       Q.   And what is that?

18       A.   On the 13th, there's a subsequent document authored by General

19    Tolimir from the command post where he is down with the 1st Podrinje Light

20    Infantry Brigade, where he notes that, you know, an awareness of where

21    prisoners are being kept, and that because there's a shortage of

22    facilities to keep them in, in and around the Bratunac area, he's

23    identified a location down in Rogatica where a number of prisoners, I

24    think he uses the number up to 800, can be stored.

25            In that particular order, he makes a reference to the fact that

Page 19864

 1    the prisoners, "If you send the prisoners down there, these prisoners

 2    should be different from the other batches of prisoners," keeping in mind

 3    that by the time he writes that later in the afternoon or certainly in the

 4    early evening of 13 July, there have already been a series of large-scale

 5    executions.

 6       Q.   All right.  We'll get to that document in a bit, but I did want to

 7    see if there was a connection, in your view.

 8            All right.  Then the last paragraph, again we had the reiteration

 9    of the OBP organs, and this says:  "... will brief the MUP organs in their

10    respective areas of responsibility on the aforementioned received.  They

11    will draw up joint plans for breaking up and liquidating the enemy

12    formations trying to escape from the Srebrenica enclave towards Tuzla and

13    Kladanj."

14            What does this representation of the MUP organs mean to you in

15    your analysis at this state of the situation on the ground?

16       A.   By regulation, the assistant for intelligence and security is the

17    focal point for coordination between the civilian authorities,

18    particularly with the MUP, and the unit, because of the shared security

19    and public safety functions.  The fact that the MUP people will be

20    briefing or coordinating with the MUP, letting them know what the enemy

21    situation is on the battlefield to allow them to not necessarily closely

22    coordinate their activities, but to just, you know, operate in a way so,

23    one, they're not at odds with each other and, two, that all important

24    facilities can be guarded and covered.

25       Q.   All right.

Page 19865

 1            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 323.

 2       Q.   This is a Zvornik Brigade report.  It's difficult to say, but it

 3    appears it's been received late on the 12th or the early morning on the

 4    13th.  It's entitled "Intelligence Report to the Drina Corps Command,

 5    Intelligence Section," by Dusko Vukotic.  Can you remind us who Dusko

 6    Vukotic is?

 7       A.   Dusko Vukotic is the assistant commander or assistant Chief of

 8    Staff, as its listed, for intelligence for the Zvornik Infantry Brigade at

 9    this period.

10       Q.   And as an assistant Chief of Staff, who does he report to again?

11       A.   He reports to the Chief of Staff, which is Major Obrenovic.

12       Q.   All right.  And we see the report -- the detailed report here on

13    the -- on the Muslims coming in their direction, and I just wanted to ask

14    about one part of that.

15            It says:  "They are fleeing in panic without any control in groups

16    or individually and giving themselves up to the MUP or the VRS."

17            Now, this is late evening, 12 July.  What do you know, if

18    anything, about this situation that he is describing?

19       A.   The evening of 12 July is when those MUP formations and army

20    formations, primarily along the road, the Bratunac to Konjevic Polje road

21    and then the Konjevic Polje to Milici road, starts seeing large numbers of

22    Muslim fighters attempting to catch the road.  They start engaging them,

23    and that's the real first period where large numbers of Muslims are being

24    captured as they're attempting to cross the road on that night.

25       Q.   Well, do you have any visibility on the evening of 12 where

Page 19866

 1    Muslims are captured, or how many, or anything like that?

 2       A.   Most of the Muslims that we have visibility on with respect to

 3    what the documents and reporting are in that -- are in the southern area.

 4    There's not a whole lot of visibility on the situation with Muslims who

 5    are captured north of the road, the Konjevic Polje-Milici road, and who

 6    have been captured by elements of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

 7       Q.   But even on the -- even down in the Bratunac area on the night of

 8    the 12th, is there any visibility, meaning do you have any documents or

 9    indications of any large collections or anything like that?

10       A.   No, sir.  The numbers aren't being -- they aren't being reported

11    that evening, that the reflection of the prisoners being caught on the

12    evening of the 12th, we'll start to see on the morning of the 13th.

13       Q.   Okay.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, now let's -- let's go to the 13th and go to

15    65 ter 62.

16       Q.   We're back to Dragomir Vasic's reports that -- and this is his

17    number, 282, with the same title as before.  It talks about a -- I'll let

18    you get your binder out and give you a warning.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  We may be skipping some of these, so I'll try to

20    alert you to the tabs so we can all keep up.

21       Q.   We see a reference to contact and combat in the area of Konjevic

22    Polje with the 1st PJP and some other casualties, but it's the second

23    paragraph that says:  "We have no cooperation or assistance from the VRS

24    in sealing off and destroying the large number of enemy soldiers, so that

25    a lot of problems can be expected until the operation is completed,

Page 19867

 1    because the MUP is working alone in this operation and both the area and

 2    the number of Muslim soldiers are large."

 3            What does your review of the materials - the documents, the human

 4    intel, the other kind of intel - when you compare it to that statement, do

 5    you agree with Mr. Vasic there?

 6       A.   Yes, sir, he's correct.  The MUP forces, the various companies of

 7    the Ministry of the Interior, were given the responsibility to essentially

 8    guard the road from roughly Krevica north to Konjevic Polje, then turn

 9    left a little bit towards Milici, where they would pick up with the

10    military police of the 65th Protection Regiment.

11            The only other army that is in that area was a garrison of the 5th

12    Engineer Battalion which did not have many soldiers, so there was no

13    immediate backup with respect to VRS infantry formations that would

14    support the army in that particular zone.

15            So with respect to the areas that he's talking about, Dragomir

16    Vasic is correct; it's strictly the MUP forces.

17       Q.   What about the Bratunac Brigade?

18       A.   The Bratunac Brigade, they're infantry formations are not along

19    the road.  In fact, their units are off the road at several kilometres,

20    still in the frontline trench positions on the border of the enclave. So

21    they're not in a position where they're going to be rapidly pulled off

22    those trench positions and sent up the road.

23       Q.   All right.  As the day of the 13th goes on, do you get any

24    indication of any army personnel in the area between Kravica and Konjevic

25    Polje, from the documents and other materials?

Page 19868

 1       A.   There are indications of isolated movements of army personnel, to

 2    include, I believe, General Mladic travels up and down that road and some

 3    other officers from the Bratunac Brigade.

 4            But on the 13th, at this juncture, General Mladic has already

 5    ordered that the mobile army formations start moving towards staging areas

 6    for the next part of his plan, the Zepa operation.  So there's not a lot

 7    of army units that are going to -- you know, that are sent up to that

 8    road.  There's just none available.

 9       Q.   Any indication from any records that there was any army people in

10    Kravica that day, people or person?

11       A.   Yes, sir.  I mean, there are records of some individuals or small

12    groups.  In Kravica, for example, there's a Bratunac medical record,

13    medical log, which reflects that a member of the Red Beret unit, which is

14    subordinate to the 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade, was wounded in

15    Kravica at approximately 1700 hours and was being treated at the Bratunac

16    Brigade medical centre.  So there are isolated documents that do reflect

17    some army presence along that road.

18       Q.   Okay.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 886.

20       Q.   This is another Vasic document, and it appears that it's the next

21    in line in his numbering system, 283.

22            He begins by saying:  "At the meeting with General Mladic this

23    morning, we were informed that the VRS was continuing operations towards

24    Zepa and leaving all other work to the MUP, as follows."

25            Now, just asking about this first -- this first comment, we spoke

Page 19869

 1    a day or two ago about a General Mladic order, I believe it was on the

 2    10th, saying, "Let's start planning for Zepa," that he left it pretty

 3    limited, I believe, to the corps.

 4            Now we see another reference. Can you tell us, if you recall, had

 5    there been visibly, from your review, any other talk of Zepa between the

 6    time we see it in that Mladic order and the time it's mentioned here?

 7            I'm taking you briefly back to the 12th of July.

 8       A.   There was the series of one or two orders which essentially

 9    reflected the fact that some of the other brigades of the Drina Corps,

10    particularly Vlasenica, were to start taking preparations.  Nothing was

11    definitive at this juncture until, as far as we know, on the evening of

12    12 July, when General Mladic convened a meeting of his senior brigade

13    commanders at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters and where they -- on the

14    fly, they basically came up with a battle plan for Zepa.

15            So you don't see the large-scale orders going out to units until

16    the 13th, once this plan is starting to be solidified.

17       Q.   And what was your principal source of information, if you recall,

18    for that 12 July meeting in Bratunac Brigade, in the evening?

19       A.   We don't have documents that reflect that.  My source of

20    information on that is my understanding of interviews of VRS officers who

21    were present at that meeting.

22       Q.   Okay.  All right.  Okay.  We see, in paragraph 1, this is about --

23    the evacuation of the remaining population is continuing and the need

24    fuel.

25            Then it says:  "... killing of about 8.000 Muslim soldiers whom we

Page 19870

 1    blocked in the woods near Konjevic Polje."

 2            What's your analysis of that comment?

 3       A.   It's a reflection of the fact that at that juncture, Mr. Vasic,

 4    you know, has a fairly accurate -- a fairly accurate estimate of the

 5    amount of individuals who have been trapped in that pocket, the northern

 6    part of the pocket being the Milici-Konjevic Polje road and the eastern

 7    part of that being the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road.  So he's aware and --

 8    he's aware that at this point in time, there's probably at least 8.000

 9    Muslims still trapped in that pocket.

10       Q.   Well, it says "killing of about 8.000."  Do you -- have you ever

11    thought that had any dark meaning?

12       A.   No, sir.  In this context, I take that that all General -- or all

13    Mr. Vasic is referring to is the fact that, you know, engagement and

14    liquidation in a strictly military context.

15       Q.   All right.  And, again, he -- well, he says, "Fighting is going

16    on," and then says, "This job is being done solely by MUP units."

17            So he's still saying that.  What do you -- has anything changed

18    from what material you're seeing in your analysis?

19       A.   No, sir.  During the evening, there had been no army

20    reinforcements to that particular part of the line.

21       Q.   All right.  And then we see the remaining paragraphs, which I

22    won't ask you about.

23            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now if we can skip ahead to 65 ter 45.

24       Q.   It should be your tab number 7, Mr. Butler.  We have two versions

25    of -- two versions of this.  One is not very clear, so the translation

Page 19871

 1    isn't very good, and 45 should be the better one.  Yes.

 2            This is, again, entitled from the Main Staff of the VRS, dated 13

 3    July, and it is in the name of Lieutenant-General Milan Gvero, and we see

 4    a time stamp of --

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse.

 6            MR. JOSSE:  45 isn't on the list.  Could we have the other number,

 7    please?

 8            MR. McCLOSKEY:  My apologies.  1059 is the one that is difficult

 9    to read.  I apologise.  I thought they were both there.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:

12       Q.   Just to perhaps to try to clear that potential issue up,

13    Mr. Butler, do you have 65 ter 1059 and 45 in your binder, the two

14    versions of that order?

15       A.   No, sir.  I believe I only have -- I have one version of the

16    order, and I have the other version on the screen.

17       Q.   All right.  Well, could you just take a -- take a look.  Sometimes

18    translations are different, but do they appear to be the same order to

19    you?

20       A.   Yes, sir, they do.

21       Q.   All right.  Can you make any conclusion about where General Gvero

22    is when this order is either drafted or authored in his name?

23       A.   Yes, sir.  I believe that General Gvero would be at the Main Staff

24    at this point.  He would be at the Main Staff headquarters.

25       Q.   And, again, how do you base that -- what do you base that on?

Page 19872

 1       A.   The header data reflecting a Main Staff order and his signature --

 2       Q.   All right.  And we see --

 3       A.   -- or his signature block is the more appropriate way to say it.

 4    We don't know if he's personally signed this or not.

 5       Q.   And that is why, again, just to clarify that?

 6       A.   One, it's a message version, which means we don't have an actual

 7    signature; and, two, if you look at the B/C/S original, it does not have

 8    the notation that -- that's normally found at the back, noting that it's

 9    earthly signed.  I think it's "S.R."

10       Q.   Now, we see this is entitled "Order to prevent the passage of

11    Muslims towards Tuzla and Kladanj."  So how is it that an assistant

12    commander for Moral, Legal, and Religious is apparently issuing an order

13    in this context?

14       A.   An order like this wouldn't be outside of his competence to issue,

15    but it is a broader reflection of the cooperative effort of the generals

16    and the staffs of the Main Staff to ensure the overall accomplishment of

17    the mission that's been given to them by their superior, General Mladic.

18            General Gvero is a longstanding professional military officer and

19    is well aware of what types of orders and directives are within his

20    competence to issue.  As a military professional, he wouldn't be issuing

21    orders that he knows are outside of his competence to issue.  So this just

22    reflects, you know, that collaborative effort that is going on at the Main

23    Staff in order to accomplish the mission.

24       Q.   In fact, as we look at the order, it has to do with securing

25    Serbian villages and capturing and disarming the Muslims?

Page 19873

 1       A.   Yes, sir.  It doesn't deal with more of the concrete issues, such

 2    as the movement of military forces or changing various components of an

 3    operational plan, and things like that.  So, you know, my view is that

 4    this is a particular order that General Gvero -- or it could easily be

 5    issued under General Gvero's name.

 6       Q.   In your view, could General Gvero have done this without General

 7    Mladic's knowledge?

 8       A.   Once.  If General Mladic presumably, you know, found out that

 9    General Gvero or any of his officers are issuing orders outside of their

10    competence to jeopardise the operations, there would presumably be

11    significant ramifications.

12       Q.   So what can you conclude, if anything, about General Mladic's

13    knowledge or involvement of this order?

14       A.   General Mladic is not necessarily going to be aware of every

15    single aspect of every single order that is coming out of the Main Staff.

16    That is why he has a staff.  As the senior officer, General Mladic is

17    giving broad directives as to what he wants to accomplish, when he wants

18    to accomplish these types of missions, and what he wants to be in a

19    position to do after the accomplishment.  It then goes to the work of the

20    staff to get into the technical details of how that's to be accomplished.

21            Now, in normal circumstances, copies of these orders are available

22    to Main Staff; and when time permits, when General Mladic or when other

23    senior officers are at the Main Staff, they would, you know, have the

24    opportunity to review these orders that have gone out in the last 24 or 48

25    hours just to acquaint themselves with them.

Page 19874

 1            But, you know, the reason why General Mladic, you know, has a

 2    staff of officers that he trusts is precisely because he's established the

 3    relationship with them that they're able to interpret his general guidance

 4    and direction into these concrete tasks that military units need to

 5    accomplish missions.

 6       Q.   Now, at 1335 hours, which we see is a possible received stamp,

 7    where, at about that time, 12:00 noon or thereabouts, 12.00 or early

 8    afternoon, does the material indicate Mladic is?

 9       A.   I'm sorry.  Say again, sir.

10       Q.   Where is Mladic in the early afternoon of the 13th of July, from

11    the materials you've reviewed?

12       A.   From what I am aware of, his movements, based on the broader body

13    of evidence, on 13 July General Mladic is travelling up and down the road

14    Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Nova Kasaba.  There are a number of individuals

15    who speak of seeing him and that he's addressing individual soldiers,

16    police officers, and prisoners on those locations.

17       Q.   And how about the evening of the 13th, just to continue this theme

18    a bit?

19       A.   Moving towards the evening, we know that by approximately 2000

20    hours on the 13th, he's present at the command -- at the headquarters of

21    the Drina Corps, where he presides over the appointment of General Krstic

22    as the commander of the Drina Corps.

23       Q.   And then where does he go?

24       A.   At that juncture of time, we lose visibility of him from the

25    Vlasenica -- from the Vlasenica headquarters.  Presumably, on the 14th, he

Page 19875

 1    is at the Main Staff.

 2       Q.   And then do you get visibility later in the day on the 14th where

 3    he is, where Mladic is?

 4       A.   Yes, sir.  And, again, I believe there's been testimony to this

 5    effect.  By approximately 4.00 or 5.00, Mladic has been departing the Main

 6    Staff and is en route to Belgrade, where he will spend the evening of the

 7    14th and the day of the 15th in a series of meetings with Serbian

 8    President Slobodan Milosevic and a number of other international

 9    officials.

10       Q.   Okay.  So going back to this document on the 13th, Mladic is where

11    you said he was.  Where do you believe Tolimir is at this point?

12       A.   After leaving the Drina Corps headquarters, the next document that

13    we have which sheds light on the visibility of Tolimir are a series of

14    orders that are issued under his signature block from the 1st Podrinje

15    Light Infantry Brigade down in Rogatica.

16            So I believe in this context, after leaving the Command of the

17    Drina Corps - and I don't know by which route - he travels down to

18    Rogatica and he remains there for almost five or six days, where he is the

19    Main Staff representative at that location, dealing with issues related to

20    both the negotiations with Muslim and UN individuals at Zepa prior to the

21    actual beginning of combat; and, also, during the phase of combat, he

22    stays at that location.

23       Q.   Okay.  And Milovanovic, you said, generally, was in the Krajina

24    during this period, but is there any indication that Milovanovic is back

25    for any length of time on the 12th or 13th or 14th of July, back to this

Page 19876

 1    area?

 2       A.   No, sir, not that I'm aware.

 3       Q.   And where do the materials indicate that General Miletic is at

 4    this time on the 13th of July?

 5       A.   By function and the broader body of information that's available,

 6    General Miletic is at the VRS Main Staff headquarters.

 7       Q.   All right.

 8            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's -- let's go to the next document.  It's

 9    8 tab --

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm sorry, Mr. Josse, I didn't see you immediately.

11            MR. JOSSE:  Can I just make this observation.  The translations

12    are of -- significantly different.  Can I invite the Prosecution to look

13    at those two translations of P45 and P1059.  Clearly, it doesn't need to

14    be done now, but it will have to be done in the next few weeks.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I'm sure Mr. McCloskey will attend to that.

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I noticed that.  That's something we should do

17    together so that we're comfortable with what we think is the best

18    translation.

19            MR. JOSSE:  I'm think Mr. McCloskey and I will need some help, but

20    I'm sure others will help us.

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm looking at Mr. Krgovic when I say that.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Thank you both.

23            MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  So we're at tab 8, it's 65 ter 1137A,

24    and C in the B/C/S.

25       Q.   We've now gone to a 13 July intercept that's at about, keeping to

Page 19877

 1    our chronology, 1355 hours.  The participants are Colonel Milanovic and

 2    the Palma duty officer, where we see Milanovic asking for a bulldozer with

 3    a spoon that should be sent to Konjevic Polje.  It appears he's repeating

 4    what's been told to him, "There is nothing before."  I think we can all

 5    see that.  It was obviously not an exact reading.

 6            Who is Colonel Milanovic?

 7       A.   Colonel Milanovic is Colonel Igniat Milanovic.  He is a member of

 8    the Drina Corps operations staff.  His specific function is the

 9    anti-aircraft defence officer.

10       Q.   All right.  And Palma duty officer, just briefly, what's that?

11       A.   Palma is the code name for the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, so that

12    would be the Zvornik Infantry Brigade duty officer.

13       Q.   And are you aware of any -- any work calling for a bulldozer,

14    military or otherwise, on the afternoon of the 13th of July, in the area

15    of Konjevic Polje?

16       A.   Within the context of the ongoing military operations, no, there

17    is not evidence that suggests that the military units in and along the

18    road or the police that are along the road are using, you know,

19    engineer -- heavy equipment in order to build field fortifications in

20    order to enhance their combat abilities against the Muslims.

21            Conversely, what is happening along that -- in that particular

22    area, starting at approximately noon, as the investigation has indicated,

23    is when you start having the first series of large-scale mass executions.

24    I believe Jadar River is first, and then subsequently you have the

25    execution that occurs up in the Cerska Valley at approximately that time.

Page 19878

 1       Q.   Was there any reason for a bulldozer, to your knowledge, at Jadar

 2    River, for a bulldozer?

 3       A.   Again, the only reasons that I would be aware of in this context

 4    would be to bury the individuals who had been executed.

 5       Q.   All right.  Do you recall the actual Jadar River situation, how

 6    they were executed?

 7       A.   I believe in the context of the Jadar River situation, it was a

 8    group of approximately 20 --

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Butler.

10            Yes, Mr. Haynes.

11            MR. HAYNES:  This isn't military analysis.  I mean, it's beyond

12    the confines of this man's expertise.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Intelligence analysis, Mr. President, is putting

15    facts together to make sense out of them.  This is another situation where

16    I'm trying to refresh Mr. Butler's recollection about something, so that

17    an appropriate picture is -- I shouldn't say much else, I guess, but --

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

19            MR. HAYNES:  The point is, you can say it in your closing

20    address.  You can put these pieces together yourself.  That's your job,

21    not his.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

23            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just to add one comment.

24            My colleague just mentioned the fact that this was an intelligence

25    analysis.  That's the question we have been trying to find out from the

Page 19879

 1    beginning.  What kind of an expert is Mr. Butler?  Is he a military expert

 2    or is he an intelligence analyst?

 3            Yesterday, my colleague said he's trying to connect the dots.

 4    We've said that many times, and I think we'll have to say it again, but he

 5    is doing the job of the Trial Chamber, the job of the professional Judges,

 6    as my colleague likes to call them, have to do in this case.

 7            Thank you, Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

 9            Ms. Fauveau.

10            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I join exactly what

11    has been said by my colleagues, and I wish also to say that this testimony

12    is only the arguments of the Prosecution, which are presented in a totally

13    inappropriate way.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you, Madam.

15            Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  We join as well, Mr. President.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  You are in time?

18            MR. OSTOJIC:  I think so, yes.  I hope so.

19            Thank you, Mr. President.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

21            Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

22            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We join as well.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyone else?

24            MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] We, of course, join.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thought the affection had stopped there.

Page 19880

 1            MR. JOSSE:  Mr. Krgovic and I were discussing other things, Your

 2    Honour, so we're neutral.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Josse.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, this is another tempest in a

 5    teapot.  If I could explain.  Perhaps Mr. Butler shouldn't be here when I

 6    explain why I'm asking that question.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can ...

 8                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't think we need to hear any further, to be

10    honest with you.  We can discuss it amongst ourselves; and if we need to

11    hear your further submissions, then we'll give you the opportunity.

12            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I believe there's facts that you need to hear to

13    understand what this is all about.  It's not dissimilar to the previous

14    kind of an argument we had over something.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  This fundamental issue that we've been having,

17    we've been having this fundamental issue forever, and I thought that was

18    resolved.  But there's one more fact you need to hear, I think, before

19    making this decision on this particular factual issue.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

21                          [Trial Chamber confers]

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Haynes et al, we are referring to

23    only the last question that you put to the witness, which was:  "All

24    right.  Do you recall the actual Jadar River situation, how they were

25    executed?"

Page 19881

 1            We are unanimously here in agreement that this goes beyond the

 2    military expertise that Mr. Butler is here for.  That's it.

 3            You can proceed with any other questions that you may have which

 4    fall within those parameters of military expertise, such as the previous

 5    one, for example.

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7       Q.   Mr. Butler, you've suggested that a bulldozer -- you didn't see

 8    any military use for a bulldozer, but two mass executions were going on at

 9    the time.  Would you need a -- would the VRS need a bulldozer for the

10    murder of 16 people on the banks of a river where their bodies fell in the

11    river and went downstream?

12       A.   In that context, they wouldn't require a bulldozer.  The bodies

13    would be disposed of.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Haynes.

15            MR. HAYNES:  I'm afraid that's just being a bad loser.  Let's move

16    on, can we?

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

18            Let's move to your next question, Mr. McCloskey.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  May I be heard, Mr. President?

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey, please proceed with your next

21    question.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

23            All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 377.  I have page 3 in English; and

24    B/C/S, page 122.

25       Q.   This is -- you may want to, I'm told, go to translation 0308-9333.

Page 19882

 1    This is a section out of the Zvornik duty officer notebook, and we see in

 2    the middle of that "bulldozer" and a phone number.  Do you relate this

 3    reference at all to the previous intercept?

 4       A.   Yes, sir, I do.

 5       Q.   How so?

 6       A.   The notation "bulldozer" and where it falls between the two time

 7    references, on the top, 1315 hours and, on the bottom, 1445 hours, again

 8    this is a notation book being made by the duty officer.  This reference

 9    may be a reference to the conversation that occurred over the telephone

10    between Colonel Milanovic and the Zvornik Brigade duty officer.

11       Q.   All right.

12            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, let's go to 65 ter number 192.

13       Q.   This should be in tab 10 of yours.  This is a document from the

14    IKM of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment and entitled:  "Procedure

15    for the treatment of war prisoners," under the name of Commander

16    Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic, who I don't need to ask you about in

17    this context.

18            Now, Mr. Butler, this begins by saying:  "There are over 1.000

19    members of the 28th Division of the so-called BiH Army captured in the

20    area of Dusanovo (Kasaba). Prisoners are under the control of the Military

21    Police Battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment.

22            "Assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of the

23    VRS proposes the following ..."

24            I take it you would agree with me that would be General Tolimir,

25    the assistant commander at the time for security and intelligence.

Page 19883

 1       A.   Yes, sir.

 2       Q.   And we see the various things its saying, and it states that:

 3    "Place them somewhere indoors or in an area protected from sighting from

 4    the ground or the air."

 5            At the time, were you -- does the -- does your analysis indicate

 6    did the Muslims have any -- Muslim army have any access to the air -- to

 7    aeroplanes or helicopters during daylight hours or, excuse me, do we see

 8    them flying helicopters or aeroplanes in the daylight hours in this area?

 9       A.   No, sir.

10       Q.   All right.  And the last paragraph, we see:  "Once the commander

11    of the Military Police Battalion receives this order, he shall contact

12    General Miletic and receive from him additional orders and verify if the

13    proposal has been approved by the commander of the Main Staff."

14            How would it be in the functional -- the makeup of the army that

15    General Miletic would be involved in something like this, actually giving

16    additional orders?

17       A.   Well, in the context of this particular document, when you look at

18    the three proposals, proposal 1 and proposal 3, as they're listed, are

19    orders that Colonel Savcic should easily be able to give under his own

20    authority to the commander of the Military Police Battalion, particularly

21    his Military Police Battalion.

22            The proposal listed as number 2, prohibit the traffic of all UN

23    vehicles along various routes, is clearly outside his competence as a

24    Protection Regiment commander.  As a result, it sounds like, in the

25    broader sense within of the text of this, he's functioning as the

Page 19884

 1    go-between on a number of issues to both his unit and the Main Staff.

 2            What he's directing his subordinate to do is, "Once you receive

 3    this message, call General Miletic, as the," you know, "operations officer

 4    of the Main Staff, and determine whether or not this proposal has been

 5    granted by the commander, General Mladic."

 6            Now, whether General Mladic is personally contacted on this or

 7    whether the decision is made at the Main Staff because they believe this

 8    is in General Mladic's, you know -- the general intent of his framework is

 9    unknown, but, I mean, once that has happened, you know, General Miletic

10    would be able to give clarifying guidance as to whether the stopping of UN

11    vehicles along various routes would be authorised.

12       Q.   All right.  And to be clear, who do you believe is the author of

13    this message, Savcic or Tolimir?

14       A.   I believe the author of this message is Colonel Savcic.

15       Q.   Well, I should say the source of the information, then?

16       A.   And it sounds like, you know, if I had to speculate, it sounds

17    like --

18       Q.   I don't want you to speculate.  I'm asking you -- we see

19    "assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs proposes."

20    What does that mean?

21       A.   It sounds like there was a conversation between General Tolimir

22    and Colonel Savcic.  Colonel Savcic then wrote this down, you know, based

23    on this conversation with him.  I don't know the mechanics of how that may

24    have occurred.

25       Q.   Okay.  All right.  And do we see, in the documents, anything that

Page 19885

 1    you believed was a response to -- well, let me start over.

 2            Is there any indication that this proposal was actually turned

 3    into something more than a proposal, an order?

 4       A.   Yes, sir, there is.

 5       Q.   And where do you get that from?

 6       A.   There are a series of orders that come out of the Main Staff

 7    which, in large part, echo these proposals and put them as orders, that UN

 8    traffic will be closed along certain aspects, and also gives the

 9    directives on how to -- and how and where to put prisoners.

10       Q.   All right.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, let's go to 65 ter 35.

12       Q.   That should be your tab 11, and this is one of three copies of an

13    order that the OTP obtained from different -- well, that appear to have

14    been sent to different organisations.

15            This is from the Main Staff, dated 13 July, in the name of General

16    Mladic; and while this particular stamp in the original is a bit

17    illegible, we see at least something of -- related to 14 July as either a

18    sent or received date.

19            Is this order related to the proposal that you just talked about,

20    in your view?

21       A.   Yes, sir, it is.

22       Q.   And how do you make that conclusion?

23       A.   In some detail, it mirrors many of the proposals that were made.

24    For example, paragraph number 2 of the order, "closing various portions of

25    roads to all traffic, with the exception of military or police units

Page 19886

 1    engaged in combat operations."  It talks about controlling -- or the

 2    access of any journalists, either local or foreign, to this particular

 3    area, with the exception of those journalists who are on staff with the

 4    VRS information centre or press centre.  That would be Colonel

 5    Milutinovic's people.  Order number 5, "ban and prevent the giving of

 6    information pertaining to this."  So these more concrete tasks relate very

 7    broadly to the proposals that were surfaced earlier.

 8       Q.   All right.  And just to try to get a better feeling for the timing

 9    of this document, since they -- both of these came out on 13 July, the

10    previous one, the Savcic-Tolimir document, 192, had a time of 1400 hours

11    on it, as we see, and a handwritten "1510 sent," so we're talking about

12    the afternoon.

13            This first one you've talked about, as we see from the time stamp,

14    there's something about the 14th of July.

15            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the second version briefly, which is

16    65 ter 35C.

17       Q.   Just go to the end of the document to the stamp.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madame Fauveau.

19            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection, because

20    it's the Prosecutor who, in fact, is now being the witness.  Could the

21    witness say something about this, but I don't think it is appropriate for

22    the Prosecution to speak of the 14th of July in this specific case.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Thank you, Madame.

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  All I was doing was reminding us of what the

25    document, so we could be focused on the issue.  I wasn't testifying.  I

Page 19887

 1    was saying what is in evidence, what was before everyone, and just

 2    referring to that page where it says "14 July" was not legible.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 4                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Having heard your explanation, Mr. McCloskey,

 6    please go ahead.

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8       Q.   Mr. Butler, so for this next one, can we go to 35C, which appears

 9    to be the same.  Let's just -- can you tell us about the stamp at the back

10    of that one?  Does it give you any indication of the time frame that the

11    document may have been generated?

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madame Fauveau.

13            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is really

14    twisting what is in these exhibits.  If the Prosecutor wants to analyse

15    this, specifically, he has to do it with the person.  Of course, I can do

16    it myself in the cross-examination, but how much time will we take in the

17    cross-examination if each time you have the document, if I have to go

18    through all the documents that the Prosecutor has analysed, himself?

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

20            Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  This, again, may be the problem of having a case

22    that's this long.  Do you remember this document many months ago and the

23    challenge there was to the time stamp and the problem that we had with the

24    CLSS version?

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't remember.

Page 19888

 1            MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  No one should be expected to remember that,

 2    but these are fundamental documents and there was a challenge to this

 3    document.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Enough, enough, enough.  Okay.  Go ahead,

 5    proceed.  Thank you.

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7       Q.   Mr. Butler, just can you help us sort out, from the time stamp,

 8    when this document might have been generated, just the period of time?

 9       A.   It was received, according to the stamp --

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madame Fauveau.

11            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like to know whether the

12    witness can tell us what unit -- what the stamp corresponds to, which

13    unit.  I do not think the witness can speak about this if he doesn't know

14    what the stamp belongs to.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madame Fauveau.

16            If you can cover that as well, Mr. Butler, please do.

17            I now remember this document, yes.  It was a question of whether

18    that's a "14" or a "17," I think.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Close, but not quite.

20            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] The problem is that it's not this

21    document but the document we had just before, Mr. President.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's proceed.  Let's be practical about it.

23    I mean, there's no point in arguing it out at this stage.

24            Go ahead, Mr. Butler.

25            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  This particular document was received at

Page 19889

 1    roughly, it looks like, approximately 20 minutes after midnight on 14 July

 2    1995.  From the part that I can see on the screen, I can't tell which unit

 3    it would have been received at.  If I can ask the Registrar could scroll

 4    up to the top, please.  I don't have a copy of this one, unfortunately.

 5            No, sir, there's not a stamp on this particular document which

 6    would indicate what unit received it.

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8       Q.   We can see on the front that it's sent to all kinds of different

 9    units.  I won't read through them, but it could have been received by any

10    of those units, I take it.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:  Or not.

12            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Or not.

13            MR. OSTOJIC:  Or none.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Or none.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's come on.  Mr. McCloskey, please, your next

16    question, and we'll have a break in 15 minutes' time, unless you want it

17    now.

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:  We've got one more version of this document,

19    Mr. President.  It should be quick.

20            Can we go to 65 ter 35A -- sorry, 35D is the English.  I guess

21    we're getting close to break time, but -- and this is the actual English

22    translation that was the subject of a previous witness.

23       Q.   And, Mr. Butler, can you take a look at the time stamp on this

24    one?

25       A.   Can I please have the B/C/S version up on the screen?

Page 19890

 1            Is this the same document we were referring to?  This looks like

 2    the same document I've just commented on.

 3       Q.   Yes.  This is version 3 of it with a --

 4       A.   No.  The B/C/S version looks like the same version that I just

 5    commented on.

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Maybe we should take a break.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll do that.

 8            We'll have a 25-minute break, starting from now.  Thank you.

 9                          --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

10                          --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Mr. McCloskey.

12            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13            If we could have 65 ter 35 on the screen.

14       Q.   Mr. Butler, this is the B/C/S of the document we've been talking

15    about that you didn't see because I didn't get it up onto the screen for

16    you.  This is a different version than the previous two.

17            There's the English.

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we can go to the second page on the English,

19    and if we can go down to the stamp on the B/C/S and blow that up the best

20    we can.  If we could have the stamp on the English, too.

21       Q.   And -- well, I think the computer gives us just as good a view as

22    the hard copy, Mr. Butler, so if you could -- and, of course, you can look

23    at both.  And if we -- does --

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, could we blow that up again, so he could

25    concentrate on it?

Page 19891

 1            JUDGE KWON:  The stamp.

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  The stamp, yeah.  Thank you.

 3       Q.   Mr. Butler, what can you make of that -- of that stamp?  Does that

 4    help us?  The disappearing stamp.

 5       A.   Maybe I can cut this short for everyone.  I believe as I -- excuse

 6    me.

 7            I believe as I have noted in my expert report, and I believe I

 8    deal with this specific item, my view is that looking at the stamp in its

 9    totality, I understand that the first line of it, there's a question

10    whether it's a "1" or a "2" with respect to whether the document is

11    received at 1220 or 2220 hours.

12            My opinion on this is that when you look at the other two time

13    notations behind it, which more clearly reflect processing on -- at the

14    2200 hour that day, my evaluation of it is this, in fact, is received at

15    2220 hours, not 1220 hours.

16       Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  And now let's go --

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

19            Madame Fauveau.

20            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Since we are discussing about time,

21    could we also have the date, please?

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. Butler, can you help us on that?

23            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  I believe, if you look at those numbers

24    to the left, you'll see that the notation is "13" indicative of 13 July

25    1995.  So my evaluation is that this document was received, and I believe

Page 19892

 1    it's at the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade Communications Centre, 13 July

 2    1995, approximately 2220 hours, 2230 hours -- I'm sorry, 2220, 2230 hours,

 3    in that time frame.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 5       Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, if we could go to your tab 13.

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY: .  Skipping ahead a bit, 65 ter 245.

 7       Q.   We're still on 13 July.  What this is, as it comes up, is the -- a

 8    daily combat report from the Bratunac Brigade, in the name of the

 9    commander, Blagojevic.  I just -- does this document assist you at all in

10    your analysis of where the forces of the Bratunac Brigade were on the 13th

11    of July?

12       A.   Yes, sir, it does.

13       Q.   And how so?

14       A.   Specifically, the second paragraph discusses the activities of

15    the -- well, it doesn't say it specifically.  It discusses the sweep

16    operation to search the terrain that are to be undertaken by the

17    4th Battalion and the 1st Battalion, which are in those areas.

18            It also notes the fact that the Brigade Command is working on

19    putting together a composite company to another location, Podravanje, to

20    carry out an assignment.  In fact, they were specifically tasked to do

21    that as part of the Zepa operations order.

22       Q.   You mentioned that the MUP forces were along the road.  How -- can

23    you relate this action with the MUP action in any way?

24       A.   They are along the road; but at this particular juncture, the

25    engagements that are occurring with the MUP forces, they're not being

Page 19893

 1    closely coordinated with the sweep operation that the Bratunac Brigade is

 2    doing.  The military forces are -- are operating off of their own orders.

 3            It doesn't appear to be a very close coordination established with

 4    this.  The military forces are advancing through parts of the former

 5    enclave.  The MUP forces at this juncture are remaining on the road to the

 6    northeast of them.  So there's a considerable gap.

 7       Q.   Where are the Muslims in relation to the MUP forces on the road

 8    and the army guys?

 9       A.   At this juncture on the 13th of July, the bulk of the Muslims are

10    actually more opposite where the MUP forces are rather than where the army

11    are.  The army is essentially sweeping through terrain area that the

12    Muslims are no longer in.  They're finding some prisoners, numbers 1 to 5,

13    but mostly what they're going over is terrain that has been abandoned by

14    the Muslims.

15       Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next exhibit, which this is at your

16    tab 14.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter 1140A, a short intercept.

18       Q.   It's at 1530 hours, and that's a 13 July intercept between X

19    and Y.  They're not identified.

20            This one line:  "Tell me, I understand that you have ordered me

21    that Borovcanin be found for him to be sent to Uducac, to the collision."

22            Have you ever been able to figure out if there's a place

23    called "Uducac" or something like that?

24       A.   No, sir.  I've checked the maps.  I can't find that particular

25    location, and I'm not exactly sure in what context "collision" is, whether

Page 19894

 1    we're referring to an auto accident or something else.  So I really can't

 2    make much of this at all.

 3       Q.   Besides the accused Borovcanin, are you aware of any other

 4    Borovcanin that -- that could be mentioned in the context of these events?

 5       A.   Again, not knowing the context of events, I know that from the

 6    2nd Romanija Brigade, there is an officer named "Borovcanin" as well, so I

 7    just can't speculate as to whether the accused in this case is the subject

 8    of this particular conversation.

 9       Q.   Okay.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next one, 13 -- it's an intercept,

11    1141B.

12       Q.   It's another short intercept, 13 July, 1553 hours.  The English is

13    A, the B/C/S is B.

14            Now, to try to save some time, does this appear to be the same

15    Milanovic that you spoke of before, still looking for a bulldozer or an

16    excavator?

17       A.   Yes, sir.

18       Q.   How about Simovic and Avramovic, do you know who they might be?

19       A.   Avramovic is the commander of the 5th Engineer Battalion, and

20    Simovic is the deputy commander of that same unit.

21       Q.   All right.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, let's go to 1142A and B.

23       Q.   It's another short intercept, still 13 July, at 1602 hours,

24    participants X and Y.  It's a reference, which we can read it ourselves.

25            I think we all know -- well, tell us what you believe Malinic unit

Page 19895

 1    is?

 2       A.   The Malinic unit referred to here is the military police company

 3    of the 65th Protection Regiment.

 4       Q.   And the stadium in Kasaba and the 1500, what do you believe that's

 5    a reference to?

 6       A.   That's the football pitch that prisoners were being held on.

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter 117.

 8       Q.   And as that's coming up, was there any other kind of intelligence

 9    that backed up that conclusion?

10       A.   There are additional intercepts, as well as there is overhead

11    imagery that confirms that, yes, sir.

12       Q.   All right.  So now we have a document from the Command of the

13    Drina Corps.  It's by General Zivanovic, 13 July, entitled:  "Preventing

14    passage of Muslim groups to Tuzla and Kladanj.  Order."   It makes

15    reference to confidential order 03/4-1629.

16            Can you relate this order of Zivanovic to any previous order we've

17    looked at?  I am referring to 65 ter 45.

18       A.   I believe there is, like I say -- I can't -- I'm blanking out,

19    memory-wise, at the second, but I know from the context that there was a

20    Main Staff order that, in fact, echoes much of this same language.

21       Q.   Well, let me refer you to Main Staff order 03/4-1629, and that's

22    at 65 ter 45; or, as we've stated, also there's a version of it, 1059 that

23    we talked about earlier.  That's the, as everyone recalls, the Gvero

24    order.  Do you --

25       A.   Yes, sir, I see it on my screen.  This is the corresponding Drina

Page 19896

 1    Corps order, yes, sir.

 2       Q.   Okay.  Let's move on.  Skip up to your tab, Mr. Butler, 20.

 3            MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is 1143A, 1-1-4-3-A.

 4       Q.   It's an intercept.  B for the -- actually, C for the B/C/S; A for

 5    the English.

 6            If you could refresh your recollection on this intercept, as best

 7    you can, Mr. Butler, and I'll ask you some questions about some of the

 8    content in it.

 9            For example, looking at this intercept, of course, and in the

10    context of your analysis, what do you believe "6.000 of them now," in that

11    second line, is a reference to?

12       A.   In this intercept, I believe that is a reference to the number of

13    military-aged men that are currently in the custody of the VRS along

14    various parts of the road.

15       Q.   And what parts of the road do you believe they're referring to in

16    this intercept?

17       A.   The collections of men at Nova Kasaba, the collections of men at

18    Konjevic Polje, the collections of men at Sandici Meadow.

19       Q.   All right.  Now, let's skip to your 22.

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  1148A, and D is a B/C/S version.

21       Q.   It's 13 July still at 1945 hours.  It says X is calling General

22    Krstic and looking for Ljubisa, who has gone to Bratunac; and then it

23    talks about there's one bus from Janja and some other information.

24            It makes a reference about Ljubisa to plan it; and then as we go

25    down, it says:  "Have Ljubisa call me at General Krstic's."

Page 19897

 1            Do you have an opinion on who this Ljubisa could be?

 2       A.   In the context that most of the conversation relates to the

 3    movement of police detachments that have been previously identified by

 4    others as coming into the area from Bijeljina and Doboj, I believe in this

 5    context the "Ljubisa" we're referring to is Mr. Borovcanin.

 6       Q.   Any of the substance in there -- can you make any sense out of

 7    planning anything?

 8       A.   Again, as I just noted, the context of this conversation, in part,

 9    refers to the -- that they're expecting additional MUP forces coming in

10    from Janja, Bijeljina, and Doboj.

11       Q.   And this reference, "Have Ljubisa call me at General Krstic's,"

12    anything after that that adds to your view about who this is, any document

13    or other evidence?

14       A.   Yes, sir.  In fact, there's a subsequent intercept to this, where

15    there is a conversation between Mr. Borovcanin and General Krstic.

16       Q.   Okay.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, let's go to an intercept, 65 ter 993A and

18    993C.

19       Q.   It's your 23.  It's a 13 July intercept at 2040 hours.  So the

20    previous one was 1945 hours.

21            In the title, it says, "General Krstic," and then, "X (Borovcanin

22    from the specials)."  What do you think the "Borovcanin from the specials"

23    is a reference to?

24       A.   It's a reference to the special police forces.

25       Q.   All right.  And what do you make of this conversation?

Page 19898

 1       A.   It is Mr. Borovcanin talking to General Krstic and providing him

 2    an update on the situation.

 3       Q.   And at 2040 hours, is there any particular situation or problem

 4    that happened in the area where Mr. Borovcanin and his troops were that

 5    he's not reporting on in this conversation?

 6       A.   Yes, sir.  I mean, the most glaring situation would be the events

 7    of Kravica warehouse, which occurred at 1700 hours or started at 1700

 8    hours that afternoon.

 9       Q.   Do you have any explanation for that?

10       A.   Why Mr. Borovcanin wouldn't have mentioned something about it to

11    General Krstic?

12       Q.   Or --

13            MR. LAZAREVIC:  It's a call for speculation, I mean.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can go on.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

16            Yes, please go ahead.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next exhibit, 1149A.  This is --

18    and D in B/C/S.  And it's page 4 in the B/C/S.  Thank you.

19       Q.   Now, this is a conversation.  It appears from the substance that

20    it's between President Karadzic and Deronjic, with an intermediary that

21    seems to be communicating between the two.

22            And at one point the intermediary says:  "Deronjic, the president

23    is asking how many thousands."

24            And Deronjic says:  "About two for the time being."

25            And then it said:  "Two, Mr. President."

Page 19899

 1            And then Deronjic said:  "But there will be more during the

 2    night."

 3            So, at 2210 hours, we see that -- which I left out that "Badem" is

 4    mentioned in the title of this.

 5            What do you think this is a reference to?

 6       A.   In this context, Deronjic is referring to the number of Muslim

 7    prisoners who are currently being held in the town of Bratunac.

 8       Q.   And how do you know that, briefly?

 9       A.   There's no information that Miroslav Deronjic was travelling up

10    and down the road to other locations to get numbers.  He was only in and

11    around the Bratunac and Srebrenica area at that juncture.  So 2.000

12    roughly corresponds to the known number of prisoners that were being held

13    in the town of Bratunac that particular evening.

14            Other components of the investigation, you know, note the fact

15    that throughout the night, additional prisoners from the outlying

16    locations are brought in to the town of Bratunac.  So given the context of

17    what has happened, this kind of, again, reaffirms what I believe this

18    is -- this is talking about.

19       Q.   All right.  And as we go down to where Deronjic says:  "Do you

20    want me to come down there to Cerska?

21            "Where you are calling from?"

22            "I take it the president is not in Cerska."

23            What do you make out of this?

24       A.   My understanding, and, again, derived from individuals who were

25    members of the political leadership, Cerska is the nickname for the office

Page 19900

 1    of -- or the location where -- where the Presidency's office is.  That was

 2    their -- that's what they called it, "Cerska," not actually the location

 3    on the ground Cerska.

 4       Q.   And then the person says:  "Deronjic, the president says all the

 5    goods must be placed in the warehouses before 12.00 tomorrow."

 6            And then Deronjic says:  "Right."

 7            And then it says:  "Deronjic, not in the warehouses," and then,

 8    "but somewhere else."

 9            Can you conclude what they're talking about there?

10       A.   In time, we understand that they're under enormous pressure from

11    international organisations to allow access to the prisoners that the

12    people are presuming to be taken in that area, that there's various UN,

13    ICRC, and MSF representatives who may be travelling through there; and

14    this appears to be, again in context, a discussion about making sure that

15    the prisoners cannot be seen from casual observation by internationals who

16    are travelling through Bratunac.

17       Q.   Okay.

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go on to the next exhibit.  We're still in

19    the evening of 13 July.  This is 65 ter number 114.

20       Q.   This is a document from the Drina Corps Command in a place called

21    the Krivace forward command post, and it's in the name of Chief of Staff

22    Radislav Krstic.  I don't want to spend a lot of time on this.

23            Can you just tell us what this is, just very briefly?  I don't

24    need to hear about the plan, but just what it is.

25       A.   Yes, sir.  This is the actual operations plan related to what's

Page 19901

 1    known as Dubocanin 95 or the military operation against the Zepa enclave.

 2       Q.   And we see General Krstic is still Chief of Staff at the time that

 3    this is signed off on?

 4       A.   Yes, sir.

 5       Q.   All right.

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next one, 136 [Realtime transcript

 7    read in error "1136"].

 8       Q.   This is a Drina Corps regular combat report to the Main Staff.  In

 9    just looking at the parts that relate to the events you've been

10    discussing, is this an accurate reflection of the situation, I mean, from

11    the perspective of the Drina Corps?

12       A.   Well, sir, with respect to paragraph 1, where it talks about the

13    enemy situation, and I discussed yesterday, I mean, there was a consistent

14    underestimation of the amount of armed fighters that was moving from the

15    former Srebrenica enclave through the zone of the Zvornik area.  This

16    document, again, reflects their knowledge of what they think the numbers

17    is; and, in fact, they've underestimated it.

18            JUDGE KWON:  Line 13, that number should be "136."

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Judge Kwon.  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, it should be "136."  That's 65 ter 136.

22       Q.   All right.  It notes that: "The enemy from the former" -- I'm

23    sorry, "enclave are in total disarray and have been surrendering to the

24    VRS in great numbers."

25            Is that the way it's actually happening on the ground, Mr. Butler,

Page 19902

 1    at that time on the 13th?

 2       A.   Yes, sir, for the most part.  Most of the column is in some form

 3    of disarray; although, the forward part of the column has more military

 4    order to it, as we see, coming into the evening.  And, yes, they -- all of

 5    the other evidence reflects that they are capturing great quantity -- or

 6    great quantities of prisoners during this reporting period.

 7       Q.   Which particular units are the -- are the Muslims surrendering to?

 8       A.   For the most part, they are surrendering either to the military

 9    police units in Nova Kasaba or they are surrendering to the MUP units that

10    are along the road from Konjevic Polje south to Sandici and Kravica.

11       Q.   And who, in your view, is in overall command of those MUP units

12    along the road?

13       A.   The army is, sir.

14       Q.   And, in particular, who was in overall command of the MUP units

15    that you've testified were under the command of Borovcanin?

16       A.   General -- or Mr. Borovcanin was directly responsible in this

17    regard to General Krstic.

18            MR. LAZAREVIC:  It's a bit too late.  It's like asking him which

19    river flows under the brook, at some bridge, I mean.  He's literally

20    putting words in the witness's mouth.

21            Well, let me quote it again:  "Who is in overall command of the

22    MUP units that you've testified were under the command of Borovcanin?"

23            This kind of question, I mean --

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  But I think what he meant - and I don't think

25    I'm guessing - was ultimately under whose command was Mr. Borovcanin.

Page 19903

 1            MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's precisely what I meant.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, exactly.  And I think his first question was

 3    not read out well by the witness and that's why he put the second one.

 4            Yes, but let's proceed.

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 6       Q.   All right.  Just a -- there's a reference later on in the

 7    document - it's B/C/S page 3 - in the decision part, where it makes a

 8    reference to the MUP.

 9            It says:  "Part of the forces, in coordination with MUP forces,

10    shall control the territory behind the lines, detect, block, capture, and

11    disarm disbursed Muslim forces, protect the population and property," and

12    it goes on as we can all read.  I won't read the whole thing.

13            Does that reflect what you've just previously said about the MUP

14    and the army?

15       A.   Well, this is a slight variation on that theme.  In this

16    particular context, there's not a -- you know, while there are prior

17    orders assigning some various units to -- under the command of

18    Mr. Borovcanin, you know, to report to the army, there's many of the other

19    municipal police units, particularly in the Sekovici and Zvornik

20    municipalities, that are not under military command.

21            This is a reflection of the fact that, you know, even though

22    they're not under military command, they're going to coordinate their

23    activities, particularly with respect to the rear zones of these -- or the

24    rear areas of these municipalities, where there may not be enough soldiers

25    to counter the threat.

Page 19904

 1       Q.   Thank you.

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go on to the next document, 65 ter 47.

 3       Q.   It's 13 July.  This is one of the Main Staff reports to the

 4    president; and the name, again standing in for the chief of staff,

 5    Miletic.

 6            Does this document fairly reflect the information that Drina Corps

 7    has sent up to it?

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

 9            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please have

10    the corresponding page in B/C/S on the screen.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise.  Page 3, both languages.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Page 3, we need page 3.

13            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  If you look in paragraph 6(a), the enemy

14    situation, it is a reflection of that Drina Corps report, you know, noting

15    the large number of surrendering troops, as well as a 200 to 300 strong

16    group of soldiers around Mount Brdic.

17       Q.   All right.  And I won't ask you about the rest of that

18    information.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's now go to the next 65 ter 118, a one-page

20    report.

21       Q.   It's a 13 July document from the chief of personnel and legal

22    affairs of the Drina Corps, Lieutenant-Colonel Jovicic.

23            Just briefly, what is this document?

24       A.   This document is the order reflecting the fact that General Ratko

25    Mladic presided over the hand-over of duties between the former corps

Page 19905

 1    commander, General Zivanovic, and General Milorad Krstic, who is now

 2    assuming full command of the Drina Corps at this time.

 3       Q.   All right.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next document, still on 13 July,

 5    65 ter 77.

 6       Q.   This is another -- this is one of those State Security reports

 7    from Dragan Kijac, and I just want to ask you about one part of it, where

 8    it says, "Ibgan Mustafic, a former..."

 9            This is the first paragraph, at the bottom of the first paragraph:

10    "Mustafic, a former SDA deputy in the former BH Assembly and a great

11    opponent of Naser Oric, was among the prisoners and can, with necessary

12    preparation, be used well in the media."

13            Does this Mustafic person come up in the -- in your analysis?  Is

14    he identified by other material or personnel?

15       A.   There are some notations, not necessarily documents; but through

16    the course of the investigation, it was confirmed that this particular

17    individual was, in fact, an opponent of Naser Oric.

18       Q.   And was there any evidence from any source that he was, in fact,

19    captured?

20       A.   Yes, sir.  I believe, as the course of the investigation, he was

21    captured, he was not executed, and he survived the war.

22       Q.   Any indication where he was identified on 13 July?

23       A.   I don't recall, sir, no.

24       Q.   All right.

25            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 116.

Page 19906

 1       Q.   This is from now Commander Krstic, an order to the Bratunac and

 2    Milici and Skelani units.

 3            Can you, again, briefly tell us what Krstic is doing here or how

 4    it relates to location of those Bratunac Brigade forces that you have been

 5    talking about in that sweeping operation?

 6       A.   In conjunction with the upcoming Srebrenica -- I'm sorry, upcoming

 7    Zepa operation, you know, General Krstic is also directing the units that

 8    had perimeters around the enclaves, specifically the Bratunac Light

 9    Infantry Brigade, the Skelani Separate Battalion, and the Milici Light

10    Infantry Brigade, to conduct various sweep operations to continue going

11    through the entire enclave, in part to ensure individuals from the enclave

12    did not make their way to Zepa.

13            Particularly in the case of the Bratunac Brigade, these trig

14    points and these locations will line up to subsequent orders that are

15    issued to the Bratunac Brigade commander, essentially, you know, a

16    reflection of the Bratunac Brigade commander following these instructions

17    and issuing more detailed orders to his subordinate battalions.

18       Q.   Okay.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 131.

20       Q.   And it's a one-page document.  In the English it translates both

21    the typed version and a handwritten version; and then there's a two-page

22    document in the B/C/S, the first being typed and the second being a

23    handwritten version.

24            This is from the Command of the Rogatica Brigade, as we know, the

25    Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, 13 July, from Tolimir.

Page 19907

 1            What do you -- and it's to General Gvero personally, and it's

 2    entitled:  "Accommodation of prisoners of war," and we can read what it

 3    says.

 4            How does this fit into your analysis?

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

 6            Mr. Josse.

 7            MR. JOSSE:  I don't know whether Mr. McCloskey minds dealing with

 8    what we regard the important translation issue on this document, the

 9    unknown word in the second line of the first paragraph.  The word in B/C/S

10    is "palacana," and Mr. McCloskey might recall that it's been dealt with

11    previously, if he could help.  If he can't, we say it means something

12    along the lines of "sleeping place."

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I remember now.  Yeah, that -- I'll go with

14    their definition on that --

15            MR. JOSSE:  Thank you.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  -- at this point.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you both.

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:  But I don't know if anyone else recalls that, it

19    was a long time ago, but I do and I don't see a problem with that.

20       Q.   If we can perhaps help, Mr. Butler, their version of the

21    translation of part of this is "a sleeping place."  Is that in replace of

22    "accommodation"?  Excuse me.

23       A.   That could work interchangeably, for the most part, yes.

24       Q.   And how does this fit into your analysis?

25       A.   At the first level, it's a reflection that at this point in time,

Page 19908

 1    that General Tolimir is aware of the large quantity of prisoners that are

 2    being taken with respect -- with respect to Srebrenica, and that there are

 3    outstanding problems with finding adequate space for all of them.

 4       Q.   And when he -- is this a document -- had you referred to this

 5    brief before in your testimony?  When I'd asked you about Tolimir, was

 6    there something later on that you became aware of?

 7       A.   Yes, sir.  I thought you were referring to prior court

 8    appearances.

 9       Q.   No, no, no, no, no.

10       A.   They're starting to string along.

11       Q.   You've just testified about something that sounds very similar to

12    this.

13       A.   Yes, sir.

14       Q.   Can you connect that for us?

15       A.   Yes, sir.  This is what I was referring to with respect to the

16    earlier order by Tolimir, where he was -- it appeared that he had no

17    information yet with respect to the fact that prisoners were being

18    executed.

19       Q.   All right.  Now, that last line says:  "It would be best if this

20    new group which has not been in contact with the other prisoners of war."

21            Do you know what he's talking about, "new group" and "other

22    prisoners of war"?

23       A.   As a practical matter, if you're well -- if you're able to

24    segregate prisoners who have no awareness yet that their counterparts are

25    being killed, it would make them a lot easier to guard at that location to

Page 19909

 1    the south.  If prisoners are aware, you know, through their own

 2    observations or they've heard through the grapevine, so to speak that, you

 3    know, that ultimately they're going to be killed, they have a far higher

 4    incentive to want to escape and become security problems.

 5       Q.   Can you -- what can you conclude, if anything, about the presence

 6    of General Gvero, the location of General Gvero, from this document?

 7       A.   I conclude from this document that General Gvero is present at the

 8    Main Staff headquarters.

 9       Q.   All right.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go on to 65 ter 113.

11       Q.   This is from IKM of the Drina Corps, 13 July, Main Staff

12    Intelligence Sector, to the Command of the Drina Corps Intelligence

13    Department, under the name of Colonel Radoslav Jankovic, and this is a

14    report that we can see on the situation of the evacuation, UNPROFOR, other

15    things that I don't want to get in with you.

16            But where do you believe Colonel Radoslav Jankovic is at the time?

17       A.   I believe Colonel Radoslav Jankovic is at the Bratunac Brigade

18    headquarters at this time.

19       Q.   All right.  And have you had a chance to look at the original

20    documents related to this communication?

21       A.   Yes, sir, I have.

22       Q.   And we'll be getting to a communication in the name of Momir

23    Nikolic on I believe it's the 18th of July.  Were you able to relate that

24    at all with this document?  And we'll talk in more detail about it when we

25    get to the 18th.

Page 19910

 1       A.   Yes, sir, in the sense that the handwritten draft versions of this

 2    document and the document on the 18th appear to be written by the same

 3    person.  In fact, in the document on the 18th, it has the initials "RJ."

 4       Q.   So which person are you saying --

 5       A.   When we get -- yeah, when we get to that document, it would have

 6    been Radoslav Jankovic also as the author, even though it is, in the typed

 7    version of the document, it's noted the author is Captain First Class

 8    Momir Nikolic.

 9       Q.   All right.  Well, we'll -- we'll get to that a bit -- a bit later.

10    All right.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now let's go to 65 ter 3013.

12       Q.   This is -- now we're into 14 July.  This is Main Staff of the Army

13    of Republika Srpska.  It says, "Open text," from Commander Ratko Mladic,

14    and it's a reference to enabling the honourable send-off of a group of 50

15    members of the Dutch Battalion from Bratunac to Ljubovija.

16            What is this?

17       A.   This is in relation to the members of the UN Dutch Battalion who

18    are being detained at the Hotel Fontana.

19       Q.   And do you know where these Dutch Battalion guys actually went?

20       A.   They in fact did cross the bridge and go over to Serbia.

21       Q.   All right.  And in paragraph 3, and the English, have you been

22    able to make out that name?

23            MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could blow up paragraph 3 in the -- in

24    the B/C/S.

25            THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.  I mean, in the English translation, it's

Page 19911

 1    listed as "Colonel Savo Bosanovic"  However, when you go to paragraph 3 of

 2    the teleprinter version, the B/C/S version, and you look particularly

 3    closely, you can see a teleprinter double strike where it is, in fact,

 4    an "S" on top of a "K."  So, in fact, the individual they're referring to

 5    is Colonel Savo Sikanovic.

 6       Q.   And remind us who that is?

 7       A.   He is an officer on the Main Staff, Morale, Legal, and Religious

 8    Affairs sector.

 9       Q.   All right.  And did you see another version of this document that

10    actually had his name spelled out correctly?

11       A.   Yes, sir.  When I first noticed this a number of days ago, the

12    Evidence Section managed to find another version of this exact document,

13    where, in fact, the teleprinter operated correctly and the name is spelled

14    out.

15            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 1154A, and B in the B/C/S.

16       Q.   This is an intercept from 14 July at 0805 hours, between General

17    Mladic and an unidentified male person.

18            Now, just very simply, does this help you identify anything about

19    the plans of General Mladic; I mean, where he's going to be?

20       A.   In -- towards the very end of the intercept, it reflects the fact

21    that until 1500 hours, "and then I'm going to the field.  I'll be busy for

22    two or three days and then I'm coming back."

23            In reality, unbeknownst to President Karadzic and the political

24    leadership of the RS at the time, General Mladic was going to Belgrade,

25    where he would be meeting with members of the International Community, as

Page 19912

 1    well as with President Slobodan Milosevic.

 2       Q.   All right.  And this reference to, "and where's Pepo?"  "Pepo is

 3    in the field."  Do you have any information on who Pepo is?

 4       A.   I believe, with respect to prior in evidence from either in this

 5    trial or in the past one with Colonel Borovcanin -- I'm sorry, Colonel

 6    Blagojevic, "Pepo" is the nickname that Colonel Salapura from the Main

 7    Staff attributes to himself.

 8       Q.   And remind us, Salapura, what branch was he part of?

 9       A.   Colonel Salapura was with the Main Staff intelligence and security

10    sector.  He was the chief of intelligence.

11       Q.   All right.

12            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's now go to tab 39, skipping ahead, 65 ter

13    89.

14       Q.   It's 14 July still, where another one of these reports from Dragan

15    Kijac, and I -- you can -- I mean, we can all read that first paragraph.

16    That's not what I'm really interested in.

17            We see, in the -- do you see that document?  Do you have that one?

18       A.   I have it, yes, sir.

19       Q.   Okay.  After providing that information, Kijac says:  "We would

20    like to mention that said reports were submitted to the Zvornik SJB, PJP,

21    and deputy commander of the RS Special Brigade in the field."

22            So who would that be that's the deputy commander of the RS MUP

23    Special Brigade in the field on 14 July?

24       A.   That would be Mr. Borovcanin, sir.

25       Q.   All right.

Page 19913

 1            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go on to 65 ter 183.

 2       Q.   This is a communication where we see a time of about 1745 hours up

 3    in the right-hand corner, and it's again from the Rogatica Brigade, from

 4    General Tolimir, and it's to the Main Staff, personally to General

 5    Miletic, entitled:  "Protection of TVP."

 6            Now, we can read this to ourselves, but what is General Tolimir

 7    doing here?

 8       A.   What General Tolimir is doing is requesting certain radio and

 9    encryption equipment to allow him to more completely monitor the radio

10    activities of the brigades and tactical units that are involved in

11    military activities around Zepa.

12       Q.   And what significance, if any, is the fact that it's to --

13    personally to General Miletic?

14       A.   I don't attribute any particular significance to it.  This is, in

15    fact, who it should be addressed to.  General Miletic, since

16    communications falls under the operative -- or operations purview, would

17    be the person who General Tolimir would want to handle this or to delegate

18    officers on his staff to handle this.

19       Q.   All right.  Now, let's -- let's skip ahead, Mr. Butler, to your

20    tab 45.

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter 2670 -- In fact, let's skip that and

22    get to 15 July, to tab 46, 65 ter 254.

23       Q.   This is a daily combat report from the Command of the Bratunac

24    Brigade, in the name of Colonel Blagojevic, and I just wanted to show you

25    that last paragraph, paragraph 8, regarding the 51 UNPROFOR soldiers.

Page 19914

 1            Does that relate to what you've previously testified about, about

 2    the Dutch -- the Dutch soldiers being moved out?

 3       A.   Yes, sir, those held at the Hotel Fontana.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  All right.

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, 15 July, I want to go to 65 ter 49, just to

 6    get a feel on the narrative.

 7       Q.   We have a Main Staff report to the president by General Miletic,

 8    standing in for the chief of staff, and just referring you to B/C/S page 3

 9    and English page 3, the Drina Corps section.

10            This gives an update about Zepa and Srebrenica, and the movement

11    of Muslim forces.  Can you comment on the accuracy of this information at

12    this time?

13       A.   Well, sir, in context with the actual operations that were

14    occurring on the ground, on the 15th, the 4th, 6th, and 7th Infantry

15    Battalions were the units of the Zvornik Brigade that absorbed the brunt

16    of the attack from the column at that time carving its way through the

17    rear areas of the brigade.

18       Q.   All right.  And, Mr. Butler, we will -- we're going around the

19    Zvornik area for a while, and we will come back there in the chronology

20    around the 13th, but feel free to comment on it, where appropriate, of

21    course.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  But just for everyone's knowledge, that's -- we're

23    not forgetting about Mr. Haynes or Mr. Pandurevic.

24       Q.   All right.  Any other comments about the accuracy of that

25    information?  Is the president being kept up to date?

Page 19915

 1       A.   Yes, sir.  I mean, it's generally accurate with respect to the

 2    military situation.

 3       Q.   All right.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 37.

 5       Q.   I believe it's a document that may have been seen here.  I don't

 6    want to go into a tremendous amount of detail to it -- with it.  But it is

 7    from the Main Staff, dated 17 July, to the Drina Corps, the Zvornik

 8    Brigade and the Bratunac Brigade and the Milici Brigade and the 67th

 9    Communication Regiment, in the name of General Mladic.  It's

10    entitled: "Integration of operations to crush lagging Muslim forces."

11            Basically, it appears to be divided up into two sections,

12    paragraph 1 and 2, and then the rest of it.  Can you -- can you tell us --

13    just briefly outline what this is?

14       A.   It's a two-part order.  In fact, Part 1 of that order commissions

15    a group of three colonels from the Main Staff to go to the Command of the

16    Zvornik Infantry Brigade as a function of planning and coordinating of

17    combat operations.  I believe, particularly before this Trial Chamber,

18    that there has been testimony as to what the actual purpose of these three

19    colonels and their arrival in the Zvornik Brigade was meant to undertake.

20       Q.   Okay.  So let's -- let's go on to the next part, then.

21       A.   The next part is the appointment of Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic,

22    who is a Main Staff officer working for General Tolimir, as a commander of

23    a grouping of forces.  These forces are specified as those forces that are

24    engaged and continuing military operations against the Muslim forces who

25    are still remaining behind and who have been trapped in that pocket

Page 19916

 1    bordered by the Konjevic Polje-Milici and Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road.

 2       Q.   And what about this reference to MUP forces, what are they

 3    supposed to do, if anything, with that?

 4       A.   Well, the MUP forces that are there would, in fact, fall under the

 5    command of Colonel Keserovic when he arrives there as part of that

 6    operation.

 7       Q.   All right.

 8            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 1214D, B/C/S

 9    65 ter 1214 -- it's the same for both.

10       Q.   This is a 17 July intercept between two unknown people - I'm

11    waiting for it to come up - X and Y, and we can read it to ourselves a

12    bit.

13            Then we see, as we get down to it, it says:  "Has Keserovic set

14    out already?"

15            X says:  "We came across him on our way here."

16            "He hasn't arrived yet."

17            "well, he must have first gone over there to Momir Nikolic."

18            "Uh-huh.  Let me tell you, I spoke just a while ago to General

19    Miletic."

20            "Okay. He told me that Keserovic also has to come here to solve

21    these problems."

22            "Yes.  However, what I told you this morning, I told the

23    commander, he ordered Salapura and the order will be drafted, or rather, a

24    request to the MUP to bring back all of them, in fact to keep them."

25            "Well, they are leaving.  The buses are arriving.  They have your

Page 19917

 1    order."

 2            "I know.  Salapura talked to Kovac and got his verbal consent that

 3    the shift will arrive in the course of the day."

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  We can go on to page 2 of the B/C/S.  The rest of

 5    it can be read, but I won't read that.  Everyone, if they want, could

 6    please read that to themselves.

 7       Q.   Can you relate this to anything?

 8       A.   Yes, sir.  In the context of the order that we've just discussed,

 9    it reflects the fact that individuals on the ground - and again I do not

10    know who the correspondents are - are reporting that the MUP forces that

11    are at that particular location, they either believe or have been directed

12    by MUP officials that their mission is over and that they are to depart

13    the area.

14            There is clearly some confusion between the army, which believes

15    that they're supposed to remain there, and the MUP, which believes they're

16    supposed to be leaving.  There's a reference between the army and Mr.

17    Kovac, who is the acting Minister of the Interior, and a discussion that,

18    you know, they have at least talked to him and they have his verbal

19    consent that either those or an additional shift will be arriving during

20    the course of the day, so there may well be MUP replacement forces coming

21    in.

22       Q.   From this intercept, can you get any idea of where Keserovic is

23    actually going?

24       A.   The reference that he must -- "he's supposed to come here," again,

25    I don't know where "here" is.  I don't want to speculate, but the fact

Page 19918

 1    that he must have "first gone over there to Momir Nikolic" is a reflection

 2    that at some juncture he went to the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade prior

 3    to his arrival at that location.

 4       Q.   And can you make any sense out of these next two lines:  "I just a

 5    while ago to General Miletic -- "I spoke just a while ago to General

 6    Miletic."  "Okay.  He told me that Keserovic also has to come here to

 7    solve these issues"?

 8       A.   Yes, sir.  I believe that's a verbal notification that essentially

 9    reflects the written order that we just talked about in the last exhibit.

10       Q.   Where would -- can you -- and don't speculate.  But in that

11    regard, what do you mean by -- where would "here" be?

12       A.   Again, you know, the most -- based on my broader knowledge of

13    everything --

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

15            Ms. Fauveau.

16            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] The witness has just said that he

17    doesn't know where it is, "here."  So I don't understand how he could

18    know.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  That was the first "here."  There's two "heres" in

21    this intercept.  We can go on.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's go on.

23            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's turn to 65 ter 91.

24       Q.   This document is entitled:  "The Special Police Brigade," the same

25    date, the 17th of July, order by Commander Goran Saric and reference to

Page 19919

 1    Ljubomir Borovcanin.  Can you just briefly outline what this is and if it

 2    has anything to do with what you've just been discussing?

 3       A.   Yes, sir.  I believe that this is the written manifestation of the

 4    conversation that the two correspondents in the prior exhibit were

 5    referring to between the discussion of Colonel Salapura and Mr. Kovac.

 6       Q.   And what is Mr. Borovcanin's responsibility here, just briefly?

 7       A.   At this point in time, Colonel -- or Mr. Borovcanin at this

 8    juncture and some part of the overall MUP forces have already re-deployed

 9    from the Bratunac area and are engaged in the zone of the Zvornik Brigade,

10    dealing with issues related to the column.

11            It specifically breaks apart the issue of responsibility, creating

12    two separate battle groups, one that Dusko Jevtic will be the commander on

13    the ground of that second battle group, Borovcanin of the first battle

14    group, but also noting that he is still responsible for command and

15    control of both of the combat groups.

16       Q.   You said "Dusko Jevtic," this --

17       A.   I'm sorry, Jevric.  I want to read the --

18       Q.   Yes, take a look.  Do you know of a Dusko Jevric?

19       A.   No, sir, I don't.  I believe this has to be a reference to Dusko

20    Jevtic.

21       Q.   All right.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next exhibit, 65 ter 1231A.

23       Q.   This is an intercept still on 17 July, 1950 hours, A and C.  The

24    participants, as we can now see, Krstic and Commander Mladic.

25            We see a reference by General Mladic to Krle:  "Can you hear me?

Page 19920

 1            He says:  "I can hear you, full steam ahead, understood."

 2            Mladic says:  "Get in touch with Miletic on the secure line, full

 3    steam ahead. I didn't accept the Turks' conditions."

 4            What do you believe this is a reference to?

 5       A.   This is a reference to the ongoing negotiations back and forth

 6    between the Muslim leadership inside the Zepa enclave, the UN -- the

 7    UNPROFOR forces there, and General Tolimir, who's representing the

 8    interests of the VRS.

 9       Q.   Can you -- do you have any specific information why Mladic would

10    refer Krstic to Miletic, as opposed to someone else?

11       A.   General Miletic is General Mladic's chief of operations.  General

12    Miletic is going along with, you know, General Mladic again telling him,

13    "Get in touch with General Miletic, who is the person who will presumably

14    be able to provide all the operational details and all the other issues

15    that you'll need for the continuation of combat activities."

16            That's not irregular at all.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madame Fauveau.

18            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't raise any

19    objection, but this is now too much.  Very often, the witness used the

20    word "presumably."  I think it's wholly inappropriate.  I think he knows

21    or he doesn't, but I don't think he can speculate in such a way.  Of

22    course, he can give his opinion, but I don't think he should speculate.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  When you use or make use of the adverb, presumably,

24    what do you actually mean?  Are you speculating?

25            THE WITNESS:  Obviously, I'm not a fact witness.  I don't know

Page 19921

 1    whether this is a fact or not.  When I use the phrase "presumably," I use

 2    it, you know, in context with my knowledge of the various JNA and VRS

 3    regulations, all of the documents that I've discussed here and that I'm

 4    aware of, particularly with issues relating to what the functions of these

 5    individuals would have been by their position on -- at various levels of

 6    staff.

 7            I don't know for a fact that General Miletic would have had, you

 8    know, all of the details of the Zepa operation.  However, I presume that,

 9    given the fact that he is the chief of operations for the Main Staff, that

10    he, more than anyone else at that organisation, would have had the

11    details.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Let's proceed.

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

14            All right.  Let's go to 1237A and C.

15       Q.   It's an intercept on the 17th of July at 2055 hours, and there's

16    the name of Trivic, Badem, and Colonel Jankovic.  We know what "Badem" is,

17    or you've told us that "Badem" is Bratunac.

18            Colonel Jankovic, who do you believe this is?

19       A.   Colonel Jankovic is Colonel Radoslav Jankovic of the Main Staff

20    Intelligence Department.

21       Q.   All right.  And from this, can you conclude where he is on the

22    17th at this time, or where someone thinks he is, to be more accurate?

23       A.  "Badem" is the radio code name for the Bratunac Light Infantry

24    Brigade.

25       Q.   All right.  It says:  "Well, Jankovic?

Page 19922

 1            He says:  "Yes."

 2            "Listen here.  Miletic said ..."

 3            "Yes."

 4            "... that you should write what you want to do."

 5            "Yes."

 6            "And send it urgently by code up to Tolimir."

 7            Then he says: "I'm in no position, man, to write.  I'm calling

 8    here, and there is ..."

 9            "Listen to what I'm telling you."

10            "All right."

11            "And the commander will decide with Tolimir and send you a reply."

12            "Fine."

13            "Well, all right.  Take care, mate."

14            With that in mind, I would like to ask you about the next set of

15    documents.

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter number 260.

17       Q.   This is an 18 July document, basically the next day from that

18    intercept.  We see a time of about 1700 hours', and on the typed version

19    we see, "Chief of intelligence organ Momir Nikolic" in both languages.

20    But in the handwritten version, which is page -- on page 4 of the B/C/S,

21    at the bottom, we see those initials which got translated as "RZ."

22            Is this what you had been talking about earlier with the documents

23    we discussed, the previous Radoslav Jankovic document from the 13th?

24       A.   Yes, sir.

25       Q.   And who --

Page 19923

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

 2            Madame Fauveau.

 3            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm completely lost.

 4    Part of an intercept was read out, with questions to the witness, and now

 5    we're going to another document which, personally, I don't see.  Could the

 6    Prosecution tell us why he's now asking questions about a document which

 7    has been shown half an hour ago.  I don't understand why the intercept is

 8    shown if he has no question to ask from the witness on this intercept.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Thank you, Madame.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, the intercept makes reference to -- for

11    Jankovic to write down what he wants and send it along to the commander,

12    and Tolimir will decide.

13            Now we have a document that's being sent up to the Main Staff, and

14    I'm getting into, with Mr. Butler, who authored this document and whether

15    it is related or may be related to the previous intercept.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

17            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] May I answer?  Frankly, I would like

18    to answer in the absence of the witness, because this can have some

19    implications.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  In fact, I had a temptation to stop Mr. McCloskey

21    halfway.  But, Mr. Butler, could you kindly leave the courtroom for a

22    short while.

23            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll soon be calling you back.  Thank you.

25                          [The witness stands down]

Page 19924

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madame Fauveau.

 2            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, maybe there is a

 3    connection, I'm not sure, but the problem, as shown by the Prosecution, he

 4    puts in the mouth of the witness that it is connected, without giving him

 5    an opportunity to say whether there is a link or not.  So in the

 6    conversation we've seen, there's also the name of Trivic.  Trivic was the

 7    commander of a brigade in Zepa and has nothing to do with Bratunac at this

 8    moment.

 9            Maybe this conversation is only connected to Zepa, I do not know.

10    But if the Prosecutor is asking the question in this way to the witness,

11    then he suggests very clearly that there is a link between the document.

12    And then with the question, we won't get an answer from the witness.  It

13    will simply be a confirmation of the argument of the Prosecutor, and this

14    is what I have already said.  It is not bearing to the witness.  These are

15    the arguments of the Prosecution we've just heard; and, in fact, the

16    witness was for a long time employed by the Prosecution.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to comment further, Mr. McCloskey?

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I'm not meaning to do that.  I'm

19    asking him about documents and asking him if he can relate to them, to

20    each other.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  And I think, Madame Fauveau, I doubt how right you

22    can be, because if you look at page 63, which is basically the last part

23    of page 63, where the question is:  "Is this what you have been talking

24    about earlier with the documents we discussed, the previous Radoslav

25    Jankovic document from the 13th?"

Page 19925

 1            So he's not putting anything to the witness.  Then later on, if

 2    there was any doubt, page 64, line 7 and 8 -- or 5 to 8:  "And now we have

 3    a document that's being sent up to the Main Staff, and I'm getting into,

 4    with Mr. Butler, who ordered this document and whether it is related or

 5    may be related to the previous intercept."

 6            So he's not put words or suggested a conclusion to the witness, as

 7    yet, at least, as I see it.

 8            Yes, Madame Fauveau.

 9            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you show him this

10    document first, to my mind, he's just suggesting, by the very fact of

11    showing this document, that there is a link.  I would like the witness to

12    explain to us the intercept itself, the conversation, and that he tells us

13    what it is about, this conversation, this intercept.  If there is a link,

14    then after that he may then tell us what link there is, what relationship

15    between the two.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  But if there is, in Mr. McCloskey's mind, at least,

17    a link between this document and the previous one, why shouldn't he be put

18    in a position to put that question in the first place?  I mean, if there

19    is no link, I'm pretty sure that the witness will not hesitate.

20            Yes.  Do you wish to comment further or should we bring Mr. Butler

21    back in?

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can just, if it's helpful, provide more detail

23    about why I didn't go into that intercept.

24            I don't think you can tell, from this intercept, what he's talking

25    about, except that whatever he's talking about, to write a letter about

Page 19926

 1    it.  So I didn't ask Mr. Butler to speculate.  Sometimes I will ask

 2    Mr. Butler, and sometimes I won't, and that's the decision I've got to

 3    make in direct.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, fine.  I think we can proceed.

 5            Yes, Madame Fauveau.

 6            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] This is precisely the question,

 7    Mr. President.  He asks the question about this intercept and what it's

 8    about, then he is speculating.  If he gives him this document and says it

 9    refers to this, then the witness will say, yes, that's possible, but it

10    remains a speculation.  It doesn't go any further.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't want to discuss it much further.  In my

12    mind, at least, it is quite clear that he's using the second document to

13    try and give some sense to the first one.  I mean, this is basically it.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's really -- the Judges will decide -- you will

15    decide if it's related or not.  I'm not trying to -- you know, we're just

16    trying to lay it out.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Even if the witness says that it is related, it

18    stands to us to decide whether we take his word for it or not.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I frankly can't remember what he says.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

21            MR. HAYNES:  This is none of my business, but I anticipated the

22    objection Madame Fauveau was going to make, and she didn't then make it.

23            I don't know why all this can't go in the Prosecution's final

24    brief.  Why is this all being adduced through a witness?  They're linking

25    documents together through a witness for hour after hour after hour that

Page 19927

 1    could go down in writing and have you read it at the end of the case.

 2            That's the objection I thought she was going to make, not that it

 3    was speculation, but that it is comment by the Prosecution, with the

 4    endorsement of a so-called expert witness.

 5            But as I say, this is none of my business, and you've ruled on the

 6    question, but I hope you'll bear that in mind as we go forth.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Well, by putting myself in your shoes, both of you,

 8    I think I can quite understand why this is being done, because if it goes

 9    in the final brief, then obviously it will have the support of an expert

10    witness.  If no question is put, it can well be included in the final

11    brief, but with less weight if it's not supported by anyone.

12            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could I just briefly respond to that?

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Oh, come on.  Let's leave it at that, Mr. McCloskey.

14    Let's bring Mr. Butler and continue and get it over and done with.

15            MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's a very fundamental attack on our theory.

16    I'd like to be able to -- it will take me 20 seconds to explain why this

17    is happening.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Then let's start counting the seconds.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Imagine a general taking a 3.000-page intelligence

20    report and saying, "Okay, General, you can figure out what the

21    intelligence is," as opposed to a briefing.  This is a briefing, and you

22    can take it or leave it, and that's all.  That's what we're talking about.

23            With that, we can get Mr. Butler back.

24                          [Trial Chamber confers]

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  The suggestion is that we have the break now because

Page 19928

 1    we've been sitting for an hour and a half already.  Thank you.

 2            Twenty-five minutes.

 3                          --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

 4                          --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

 5                          [The witness entered court]

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8       Q.   Mr. Butler, we were at 65 ter 260, and I think I directed your

 9    attention to the handwritten part of that, and you had given us your

10    conclusions.  Were you able to look at the original of that -- of that

11    handwritten recently in your analysis on who -- who wrote that?

12       A.   Yes, sir.  I had requested, and it was provided, the original

13    copies of this document, as well as the prior document from Colonel

14    Jankovic.  I believe it's dated 13 July, from the ICTY evidence vault.

15       Q.   And what did you do with the originals, and how did it help or

16    assist in your analysis?

17       A.   With respect to the original handwritten versions, it reinforces

18    my opinion that the author of this particular document, at least the paper

19    draft version of that document, is in fact Colonel Radoslav Jankovic.

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And, Your Honours, I have the

21    originals here, if there's any interest in it.

22       Q.   Anything unique about the paper in the document that helped this

23    analysis?

24       A.   It's not a normal white sheet of blank paper or lined paper.  The

25    documents, both of whom are attributed to Colonel Jankovic, are on the

Page 19929

 1    same type of graph paper.

 2       Q.   Okay.  Now, let's go to the document --

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

 4            Mr. Bourgon.

 5            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6            For the record, I'd like to state that these kind of conclusions

 7    made by the witness has no relationship with his expertise.  This is a

 8    conclusion that can be drawn and should be drawn by an investigator, and

 9    the work that he did in comparing these documents and obtaining the

10    originals from the vault is something that is done by investigators.  An

11    investigator is not the kind of conclusion that they would be able to come

12    and do before this courtroom.

13            Thank you, Mr. President.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

15            Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can briefly refer the Court back to the

17    testimony of Mr. Butler regarding the job of a -- of a military

18    intelligence officer is to look at human intelligence, documents, to

19    determine their authenticity.  Its absolutely within his job, both as that

20    and as an analyst, to determine the authenticity and the authorship of the

21    documents that he's analysing.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

23            MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go now, if we can --

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, one moment.

25                          [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 19930

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  We authorise you to proceed.  Of course, we reserve

 2    the right of Mr. Bourgon and others to make submissions on this in due

 3    course, when appropriate.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5       Q.   Mr. Butler, that -- let's now go to the English translation of

 6    this, and it's on B/C/S page 1 as well.  What I'm most interested in the

 7    third -- what's marked as the third paragraph, the part about the MSF

 8    convoy.

 9            Then at the third paragraph down, this question that is asked:

10    "Will you please tell me what stand to take in terms of authorisation for

11    evacuation of the international organisation MSF, in fact, how to deal

12    with so-called local staff.  This also applies to the interpreters of the

13    Military Monitors and UNPROFOR.

14            "The RDB passed on to us the opinion that President Karadzic has

15    allegedly abolished all local staff who used to work for UNPROFOR.  It is

16    our opinion that they should not be hold."

17            Maybe "should not be held" or "hold."

18            What is your analysis of those -- of that question?

19       A.   It's pretty straightforward, sir.  Both, you know, many of them

20    international organisations, did use local nationals, some of them from

21    that particular area, for translation duties.  There was an open question

22    as to whether or not, when repatriating back, a number of those members of

23    international organisations are allowing them to leave, whether or not the

24    locally-hired staff should go with them or would they be subject to

25    detention by the military authorities.

Page 19931

 1       Q.   All right.  Now, let's go to the next day, 19 July.  We see that

 2    that document, as the previous one, 260, was about 5.00 in the evening,

 3    5.00 p.m., 1700.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now let's go to 65 ter 1266D for both languages.

 5       Q.   This is from the 19th of July, the next day, at about 1432 hours,

 6    and it says:  "Jankovic's voice at frequency channel 3, and Colonel

 7    Djurdjic at another frequency between channels 3 and 4."

 8            Participants:  Jankovic, Colonel Djurdjic.

 9            From your analysis, can you tell who these people are?

10       A.   Yes, sir.  Colonel Djurdjic is an officer of the Main Staff who is

11    frequently associated with issues related to the UNPROFOR; and Colonel

12    Jankovic is Colonel Jankovic from the Main Staff intelligence branch.

13       Q.   All right.  And let's take a look at this conversation.  As we go

14    down it, it says:  "Colonel Djurdjic speaking."

15            Then Jankovic says:  "I'm listening."

16            Janko?"

17            "Yes."

18            "Is it you?"

19            "Yes, it's me.

20            "We should talk, but I've got to make an effort."

21            "Okay."

22            "Regarding what you were asking."

23            Then Jankovic says: "Yes."

24            "The boss has ordered that they be halted."

25            "Yes."

Page 19932

 1            "That is what he wrote."

 2            "Yes."

 3            "That Kristina, the nurse, can go."

 4            "Yes."

 5            "Daniel O'Brien."

 6            "Yes."

 7            "The physician."

 8            "Yes."

 9            "Can you hear me well?"

10            "Yes."

11            "You here me well?"

12            "I can here you."

13            Then Djurdjic says: "And only women and children can go.

14    Understand?"

15            And on B/C/S, English page 2:  "And what about those young men?"

16            Djurdjic says: "Others, no. I don't know."

17            "They might require."

18            And Djurdjic says:  "Say again?"

19            Jankovic:  "But they will require, but they have government's

20    permission for all of them to go."

21            And then Djurdjic says:  "Goddamn it, can we do this through the

22    girl?"

23            "I have to ask her to act as mediator here, and now I'll --

24            "We can't, we can't.  We're having a one-way conversation."

25            And then Jankovic says:  "Listen."

Page 19933

 1            "Yes."

 2            "So, they have permission from the Koljevic Government?"

 3            "Yes."

 4            "That they can all go.  They have a list."

 5            "Yes, I know ..."

 6            Then they talk about the names of several Muslim men, which I

 7    won't go through.

 8            Then it goes on:  "Yes, they are taking them as local staff, and

 9    they have permission from Koljevic."

10            Djurdjic says:  "All right.  They have the permission, but you

11    know that the procedure you two too took part in.

12            "Great."

13            "Pardon?"

14            "Great.  If that's your position, it's good."

15            "The procedure is such, goddamn it, that it should be checked

16    whether those who ... are they able-bodied or older than 60?"

17            Jankovic:  "They are able-bodied."

18            "They are?"

19            "Yes."

20            "So that is the procedure, and you saw what you left behind in

21    Bratunac the other day."

22            "Okay."

23            "Am I right?"

24            Jankovic says:  "Okay."

25            "All right."

Page 19934

 1            "And they, if they agree, let them go in their vehicles and take

 2    those women and children."

 3            "All right."

 4            "And that little orphan, too, some small kid of a year and a

 5    half."

 6            "Okay."

 7            "Understand."

 8            "All right."

 9            "Is it a deal?"

10            "And they also have two elderly persons."

11            "Say again?"

12            "They have two elderly people with them."

13            "What things?"

14            "No.  Two old, two elderly persons, and ... 80, 81 years old."

15            "Those are kids."

16            "No, no, the elderly."

17            "Two elderly, let them go.  Let the elderly go."

18            "Okay."

19            "Let the elderly go; and tonight when Tosa areaches, you and him

20    must make sure you consult some more, please."

21            "All right, I will.  When is Tosa coming?"

22            "In the early evening."

23            "Okay, I won't."

24            "All right.  Talk to you later."

25            "I'll be in touch with him."

Page 19935

 1            "Cheers."

 2            "Thank you."

 3            Okay.  Let's go back to the beginning here, and, first of all, can

 4    you tell us what they're talking about, generally, in your view?

 5       A.   Generally, they're reviewing to -- they're referring to differing

 6    guidance that they've been receiving with respect to what should happen

 7    with the local national staff for those international organisations.

 8            On one hand, Colonel Djurdjic is saying, "You know what the

 9    procedure is, that if they are in fact males of military age, they're to

10    be separated and screened."

11            On the other hand, Colonel Jankovic is saying, "But I have

12    information that they all have permission to include the local staff to

13    leave, and that permission is signed by the president of the" -- not the

14    president, but I mean "the leadership of the Republika Srpska."

15       Q.   Okay.  And when they get down to the last part of it, they're

16    referring to a Tosa arriving and talking with Tosa about this.

17            "Tosa," I'm sorry.

18            Has your analysis revealed to you who you believe Tosa to be?

19       A.   Yes, sir.  I understand that that is a nickname commonly used to

20    describe General Tolimir.

21       Q.   All right.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 3039.

23       Q.   This is a document from MSF.

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:   It's under seal, I'm told.  Excuse me.  I don't

25    have it in English, but I'm really not --

Page 19936

 1       Q.   This is dated 19 July 1995, and have you reviewed this in your

 2    analysis of the previous intercept?

 3       A.   Yes, sir; and, in fact, a number of names listed here are

 4    mentioned in that previous intercept.

 5       Q.   And do you know, did these MSF interpreters and UNMO interpreters

 6    make it out okay from the area?

 7       A.   Yes, sir.  It is my understanding that they, in fact, were not

 8    detained and were allowed to leave.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:   Let's go to 65 ter 3015 now, a 20 July document.

11       Q.   We've got "10.30 a.m." written on it.  At the bottom, it's from

12    the Drina Corps command, the village of Goranji, the forward command post,

13    20th of July, to the VRS Main Staff, General Miletic personally, from the

14    commander, General Krstic.

15            He's asking -- or what is he doing, just briefly?  You tell us

16    what he's doing.

17       A.   In this document, General Krstic is making a request to the Main

18    Staff, General Miletic personally, that orders be given to engage the

19    Military Police Battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment so they can be

20    used in and around Zepa to prevent the looting of materials presumably by

21    VRS forces after they liberate the town.

22       Q.   And, again, I won't go into it in detail, but does this fit the

23    job description for General Miletic, as you've described earlier in a

24    similar document?

25       A.   Yes, sir.  I mean, General Krstic, as the commander of the Drina

Page 19937

 1    Corps, does not have the competence to order a unit that's directly

 2    subordinate to the Main Staff.  He would have to go through General

 3    Miletic and request the employment of that unit.  It would be up to the

 4    Main Staff to either grant his request, deny it, or modify it in any way.

 5       Q.   Well, the Military Police Battalion, which branch of the Main

 6    Staff do they come under?

 7       A.   In this particular context, they are part of the 65th Protection

 8    Regiment.  They're not an independent military police battalion standing

 9    on their own.  The 65th Protection Regiment is an operative formation, so

10    it would fall under the operative branch.

11       Q.   How about the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

12       A.   In that particular case, given the unique mission of the 10th

13    Sabotage Detachment with respect to long-range reconnaissance and sabotage

14    operations, their orders are directed by the chief of intelligence.

15       Q.   And just to clarify, who is that?

16       A.   General Tolimir --

17       Q.   So --

18       A.   -- and his subordinates.

19       Q.   So would that be more correctly stated "chief of intelligence and

20    security"?

21       A.   Yes, sir, assistant commander for security and intelligence

22    affairs.

23       Q.   Okay.  All right.

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to another one, 65 ter 2517, 21 July.

25       Q.   This one is from General Tolimir, from the Command of the Rogatica

Page 19938

 1    Brigade, as we see up in the left corner, VRS Main Staff, to General

 2    Miletic personally.  It describes the situation in Zepa.  Now, this last

 3    paragraph, "We believe that..."

 4            Where Tolimir is telling Miletic:

 5            "We believe that by destroying the refugee columns of Muslim

 6    population from the village of Stublici, Radava," a word I can't

 7    pronounce, "we would force the Muslims to surrender quickly."

 8            That recommendation and the other proposals, why go through

 9    Miletic on those?

10       A.   These are operational proposals.

11       Q.   The rules in place that we've discussed before regarding laws of

12    international -- related to the International Laws of War in the JNA, is

13    this last recommendation consistent with those rules, the JNA rules?

14       A.   If, in the context, they understand that the refugees are in fact

15    not soldiers fleeing, but in fact civilian refugees, they would not be.

16       Q.   Okay.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 3020.

18       Q.   It's a 21 July Main Staff report to the president, that we have

19    become familiar with. Again, it's in the name of General Miletic.

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to B/C/S page 3, English page 4.

21       Q.   There's just a note:  "Part of the corps forces are continuing

22    offensive operations, carrying out combat tasks around the Zepa enclave."

23            Is that correct, in your view?

24       A.   Yes, sir.  On 21 July, that is still correct.  While some forces,

25    particularly from the Zvornik Infantry Brigade were previously withdrawn,

Page 19939

 1    there are still Drina Corps forces engaged in these operations, yes, sir.

 2       Q.   Okay.

 3            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to --

 4            JUDGE KWON:  The number again?

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter number 3020.

 6            And if we could have 65 ter 1324A, and B in the B/C/S, it's an

 7    intercept, now moving on to 24 July.  Page 2 in the B/C/S is the part I

 8    want to ask about.  Okay.  It should be the bottom.

 9       Q.   There's talk about a generator and hooking up at Konjevic Polje,

10    but then they get into where X says:  "And another thing.  Since I'm

11    having difficulty reaching Connie up there, tell him this Himzo Mujic."

12            "Mujic?"

13            "Himzo is no longer in prison here.  He should be called

14    Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic."

15            "Lieutenant Colonel?"

16            "Popovic.  Ask for the switchboard of the Drina Corps and then for

17    extension 91."

18            "Drina Corps.  Switchboard, extension 91."

19            "Yes.  And he should arrange it personally with him.  He's the

20    only one who knows where he went from here and what happened to him.  You

21    can do it if you see him somewhere during the day.  You pass that on,

22    because I called him on the number he gave me.  He's not in his office."

23            Now, this particular Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, who do you

24    believe that is?

25       A.   This is the chief of security for the Drina Corps.

Page 19940

 1       Q.   And Himzo Mujic, what would be that person's ethnicity and/or

 2    status?

 3       A.   There's not a -- given the fact that there's not a father's name

 4    in there, it's kind of very difficult to be conclusive.  I mean, the name

 5    does sound Muslim, but I'm certainly not an expert in that field.

 6       Q.   Okay.  It says:  "Himzo is no longer in prison here."

 7            What's that a reference to, in your view?

 8       A.   It would be the Drina Corps detention facility.

 9       Q.   And what significance, if any, can you draw from this comment that

10    Popovic -- or that he is the only one who knows where he went and from

11    where and what happened to him?

12       A.   I can't read anything more into it than what's listed here. It's

13    pretty self-explanatory.

14       Q.   And do -- would a Drina Corps security officer have anything to do

15    with Muslim prisoners?

16       A.   Yes, sir.

17       Q.   And we don't need to go through all that again, I don't think.

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next one, 65 ter number 3021.

19       Q.   This is another Main Staff report to the president, just a brief

20    reference.  This is B/C/S, page 3, and English, page 3.

21            This now says, under, "Situation of the corps: "Operations around

22    Zepa have ceased at the moment as an agreement of surrender was signed

23    with the Muslims."

24            Is this accurately updating the president on that point?

25       A.   Yes, sir.

Page 19941

 1       Q.   Okay.

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 191, 25 July 1995.

 3       Q.   Again, we have communication from General Tolimir, from the

 4    Command of the Rogatica Brigade, to the Main Staff, personally to General

 5    Gvero or General Miletic.  It talks about the agreement on disarmament of

 6    Zepa, and I just want to ask you very briefly, Mr. Butler.

 7            It's page 1 of the B/C/S, but it's in the second page of the

 8    English.  There's this comment:  "Make a note to them that we don't want

 9    them to send a general, considering that we have information that they

10    want to take advantage of his presence according to similar scenario when

11    they took advantage of presence of General Morillon in Srebrenica in

12    1993."

13            Can you outline what you believe that is a reference to, both

14    from, well, 25 July 1995 and then the Srebrenica 1993 reference?

15       A.   I think it's fairly explicit that it's a reference to the

16    circumstances in April or May of 1993 where the VRS agreed to a temporary

17    ceasefire to allow General Morillon and UN presence in Srebrenica for the

18    immediate purpose of facilitating the removal of the civilian population

19    that had been trapped in Srebrenica, and, in fact, that that subsequently

20    turned into a -- the creation of a permanent safe area, which they didn't

21    want to see repeated again in 1995 with respect to Zepa.

22       Q.   Okay.

23            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go now to 65 ter 190.

24       Q.   We're at 25 July. Main Staff Sector for Intelligence and Security.

25    It says, "For the chief, Lieutenant-Colonel Jovica Koranovic.

Page 19942

 1            Can you -- if you can, can you give us any information, as we see

 2    what they're talking about on -- especially in reference to the bottom:

 3            "Later on, General Miletic and I had a conversation with Bulajic,

 4    who happened to be at Lugonja's place.  He was told that they are not

 5    going to vary from the agreement signed between Kusic and Muslim side;

 6    although, the Muslim delegation told Bulajic that they did not know who

 7    Torlak was."

 8            Do you know who the name Bulajic is?

 9       A.   I think he's it's person associated with the RS Exchange

10    Commission.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go on to the next document, 65 ter number

12    182.

13       Q.   This is from the Main Staff of the VRS, dated 25 July.  It's an

14    order by General Mladic, and it talks about:  "By means of organised and

15    complete control, prevent the enemy of all uninvited individuals," and it

16    goes on with similar paragraphs.

17            Can you relate this document to any documents that you've

18    previously seen that had to do more with the Srebrenica events?

19       A.   Yes, sir.  This is - and in fact, in paragraph 4 - a reiteration

20    of the 13 July order which talked about those same basic procedures.

21       Q.   Okay.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 3022.

23       Q.   Again, just to make a quick reference, it's a Main Staff report to

24    the president, 26 July, under Miletic's name again.

25            As we go to B/C/S, page 4, page 4 of the English, we see a

Page 19943

 1    notation:  "Units engaged in Zepa are securing the evacuation of the

 2    Muslim population."

 3            Does that reflect a correct update of what's going on, in your

 4    view?

 5       A.   Yes, sir.

 6       Q.   All right.

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 2793.

 8       Q.   This is from the Rogatica Brigade, again from General Tolimir, to

 9    the Main Staff Sector for Intelligence and Security, forward command post

10    for Krstic, and the intelligence organ of the Drina Corps, entitled:

11    "Mine dispositions in Zepa."

12            It says:  "During the conversation with Avdo Palic, we found out

13    that the minefields and individual mines were laid at the following

14    locations:"

15            I don't want to get into the minefields, but what, if anything,

16    does this document tell us about Avdo Palic on this date?

17       A.   It reflects that on that date, there was a conversation with him.

18       Q.   Do you know if he -- if there's any indications whether he was

19    free to meet with other people or anyone else after --

20       A.   No, sir.  At this point in time, he was in the custody of the VRS.

21       Q.   All right.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 3023.

23       Q.   It's another Main Staff report to the president.  B/C/S, page 4,

24    in the name of General Miletic.

25            I want to go down to the bottom of the first paragraph:

Page 19944

 1            "From the Zepa enclave, they tried to break through to the village

 2    of Donje Zezeljevo sector, intending to get to the territory of the SRJ."

 3            Now, do you have anything -- any other information relating to the

 4    movement of Muslims from Zepa to Serbia around this time, 29 July?

 5       A.   Yes, sir.  There are a series of intercepted communications where

 6    various members of the VRS are discussing what they're seeing with respect

 7    to Muslim soldiers, rather than putting themselves in the custody of the

 8    VRS, they were in fact trying to make it over the Drina River and go to

 9    Serbia.

10       Q.   Okay, and we'll get to some of those.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  But on that, let's go to the next document, 29

12    July 1995, 65 ter 2673.  Excuse me.

13       Q.   This is again from the Rogatica Brigade, in the morning, 0930

14    hours, to the Main Staff, Intelligence and Security, Tolimir personally,

15    and the Drina Corps Intelligence and Security, and to General Krstic.  And

16    it's from Captain First Class Dragomir Pecanac.

17            Now, Pecanac is a name we've heard before.  Do you know if that's

18    related at all to the other person you talked about?

19       A.   Yes, sir.  Pecanac is the officer on the Main Staff.  He works for

20    the Security Department, and he is associated with being responsible, to a

21    large degree, with issues relating to the personal security of General

22    Mladic.

23       Q.   Okay.  And just looking at paragraph 5 of this document, it's on

24    the second page in the English, but paragraph 5 in the B/C/S.  It just

25    makes a reference about unconfirmed reports that Muslims are trying to

Page 19945

 1    break through to the right bank of the Drina River, with -- probably with

 2    the intention to surrender to forces of the Serbian MUP.

 3            Is this the same -- same information we saw in the previous

 4    document that you mentioned?

 5       A.   Yes, sir.

 6       Q.   All right.

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:  And getting to 31 July, 65 ter 3024, another Main

 8    Staff report to the president.

 9       Q.   Just a quick reference, again it's from Miletic, and B/C/S page 3;

10    "At 1930 hours we received information that the enemy were building rafts

11    in the Crni Potok sector and escaping to the Drina bank."

12            MR. McCLOSKEY:  English page 4, excuse me.

13       Q.   Now, is this referring to the same topic that the previous two

14    reports of unconfirmed information?

15       A.   Yes, sir.  We're talking about the same general activity.

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now let's go to 65 ter 3036, page 1 of the

17    English.

18       Q.   Now, I think the English translation may be wrong, from which --

19    and there's question marks.  Can you tell, by looking at this, what unit

20    this document is coming from, if you can look at the original?

21       A.   I'm sorry, which one?  Which document are you referring to, tab

22    number?  I have a different --

23       Q.   Oh, 70.  If you look at the original --

24       A.   I just want to make sure what's matching up with the screen.

25    Okay.  It's listed as partially illegible on the English one.  But if you

Page 19946

 1    look at the B/C/S version, I think you get a clear read that we're in fact

 2    talking about the Command of the 1st Podrinje Light Brigade.  We're not

 3    talking about the Bratunac Light Brigade.

 4       Q.   So that would be corrected back to "the Rogatica Brigade"?

 5       A.   Yes, sir, I believe so.

 6       Q.   And this is from the chief of organ, Captain Zoran Carkic.  Do you

 7    know who that is?

 8       A.   I believe he is the assistant -- or he is the chief of security

 9    for the Rogatica Brigade.

10       Q.   All right.  This is listed as "OSVRO."  CLLS:  "Expansion

11    unknown."

12            Do you have any explanation of what that is, in that top part, or

13    that may be again another --

14       A.   No, sir, I don't.  I'm not further with what that "expansion" is.

15       Q.   And to General Miletic personally, who do you think that is?

16       A.   Given the context of this, I believe we're referring to General

17    Miletic of the Main Staff.

18       Q.   Do you have any other VRS officers with that name, besides Zdravko

19    Miletic?

20       A.   No, sir.

21       Q.   Now, Captain Carkic, I want to refer you to B/C/S page 1.  It's

22    page 3 of the English.  In speaking to General Miletic, he says:

23            "Another 100 balija are expected in Bajina Basta."

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Why is that Zdravko?

25            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 19947

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Why "Zdravko"?

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I just got it mixed up.  I apologise.  I apologise

 3    to the general.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

 5            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I object to the form of the

 6    question, because the Prosecution has just said that Captain Zakic, while

 7    speaking to General Miletic.  First of all, he's not talking to him, and

 8    he's not the only addressee and he's not the first addressee, either.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

10            All right.  What do you have to say about that?

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Do you want me to imply he's speaking to him?  I

12    mean, he's communicating to him, and that's what I want to focus on.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not suggesting that what she's saying is not

15    true.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Okay, that's clear enough.  Let's proceed.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:

18       Q.  "Another 100 balija are expected in Bajina Basta.  At the same

19    time, the largest group of balija was registered, around 1.000 men in the

20    general area of Crni Potok.  They seem to be attempting to cross over to

21    the right bank."

22            Then there's some more information about other areas, and there's

23    the last comment: "We have information that they register them

24    immediately, and for the time being, they are not inclined to turn them

25    over to us."

Page 19948

 1            What do you believe that first reference that I mentioned is, this

 2    thousand -- a thousand men?

 3       A.   Those are individuals who are military-aged men, may very well

 4    even be members of the Zepa Light Infantry Brigade.

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 1378.  That's A in the English,

 6    B in the B/C/S.

 7       Q.   It's a 1 August intercept between Jevtic from Serbia and Stevo and

 8    Ljubisa Beara from the Main Staff of the so-called VRS.  Do you know who

 9    Jevtic is in this context?

10       A.   No, sir, I don't.

11       Q.   How about Stevo?

12       A.   I'm sorry, say again.

13       Q.   How about Stevo?

14       A.   No, sir.

15       Q.   And Ljubisa Beara?

16       A.   I know who he is.

17       Q.   The same question regarding his name, are you aware of any other

18    officers of the VRS with that name, "Beara"?

19       A.   No, sir.

20       Q.   All right.  Okay.  In page 2, we get on to this.

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  In the B/C/S, at the bottom.  All right.

22       Q.   I don't want to go through this entire conversation, but can you

23    just briefly tell us, does this have to do with the subject matter of the

24    documents we just looked at?

25       A.   Yes, sir, it does.

Page 19949

 1       Q.   And would the involvement that we see from this intercept of

 2    Ljubisa Beara be consistent with his position on the Main Staff?

 3       A.   Yes, sir, it would.

 4       Q.   Okay.

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next one, 389A in English -- 1389A

 6    and 1389C.

 7       Q.   It's an intercept, 10.00, between someone named Mandzuka and

 8    General Krstic.  Any idea who Mandzuka is?

 9       A.   No, sir.

10       Q.   All right.  Again, I won't -- I won't get into it.  I think we can

11    read this as we see it.

12            It's talking about a thousand of them in Bajina Basta, and Krstic

13    says:  "Register all the RS over there so we can use them for exchange.

14    How about more down there?"

15            The person says:  "About 2.000, altogether.  Beara went over there

16    to Serbia.  He'll take care of it."

17            Again, is this the same subject you've been talking about?

18       A.   Yes, sir.

19       Q.   All right.

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next one, 1392B, page 1.

21       Q.   This is dated 2 August, and, I'm sorry.  I'm going to have to tell

22    you, I will get back to you on the -- I'm going to have to get back to you

23    on the date of the Mandzuka-General Krstic intercept.  It's also --

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

25            MR. HAYNES:  It's no objection, but was 1389 on the list?  Was

Page 19950

 1    there a supplemental list including that one, because it doesn't appear on

 2    my list.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  If it's not on the list, I'll skip it.  I

 5    apologise.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  All right, go ahead.

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:  1392B.  This is 2 August, and we now, if we --

 8    this is a short one between General Krstic and Popovic.  1392 is the B,

 9    B/C/S, on page 1.

10       Q.   What do you think they're talking about here?

11       A.   In this, it's directing General Krstic -- General Krstic is

12    directing General Popovic, as well as a Kosoric; and within the context of

13    where they're located and what they're doing, I take "Kosoric" to be

14    Lieutenant-Colonel Svetozar Kosoric, the chief of intelligence of the

15    Drina Corps, and go over to Serbia.

16       Q.   Okay.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next one, 1395B in both languages.

18    It's divided into two pages in the B/C/S.

19       Q.   It's an intercept on 2 August, between Krstic and Popovic.  Who do

20    you believe the "Popovic" and the "Krstic" is here?

21       A.   Again, the same two correspondents, we're talking about General

22    Krstic, the commander of the Drina Corps, and Colonel Popovic, the chief

23    of security of the Drina Corps.

24       Q.   And just, very briefly, does this have to do with the same -- what

25    does this have to do with?

Page 19951

 1       A.   They're referring about the same issue.  In this particular

 2    context, the report that is coming back is that the Serbian MUP is not

 3    allowing representatives of the VRS to talk to these individuals, and at

 4    present the Serbian MUP is not allowing them to be returned back into the

 5    custody of the VRS, so they're staying in Serbia.

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 7            Mr. President, I have one smaller binder which I will definitely

 8    be able to finish tomorrow, and I would hope that during the second

 9    period, and, if we're lucky, the first period, if I can get your approval

10    for that.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, and that's advanced notice

12    to whoever is going first.

13            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'm going first, Your Honours.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, thank you.

15            We stand adjourned until tomorrow at 9.00.  Thank you.

16                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,

17                          to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of

18                          January, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.