Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21629

1 Tuesday, 3 June 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody and good morning to you,

6 Madam Registrar. Could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, good morning everyone

8 in the courtroom. This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam. Do you have any preliminaries?

11 None.

12 For the record, yes, Mr. Meek?

13 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, thank you. Good morning, Your Honours.

14 I would just like to introduce John Karis. He's an intern with us from

15 the United States, and he's sitting in with us today.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek and welcome, Mr. Karis.

17 MR. KARIS: Thank you, Your Honours, it's a privilege to be here.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record all the accused are here. I notice

19 the absence of Mr. Haynes, Mr. Bourgon, from the Defence teams.

20 Prosecution, it's Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls and Mr. Mitchell.

21 All right. No preliminaries? I suppose we can bring in the

22 witness and finish with him.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Krajisnik. Welcome back.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 21630

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls is going to proceed with his

2 cross-examination, after which I suppose we can send you back, and I'll

3 make sure that the segregation order is lifted.

4 Mr. Nicholls?

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

9 Q. I want to start off today with a just a couple more questions

10 about the 16th Assembly session.

11 Yesterday, at transcript reference 21584, you stated that the

12 16th Assembly session was held in public. Correct?

13 A. I said that all the sessions were public so I suppose that one

14 was as well. Now that I think about it, at one point, it may have been a

15 closed session. It might have been.

16 Q. Well, let me help refresh your memory on that. If we could have

17 65 ter P25 up, please? On page 22 of the English, which is B/C/S 19.

18 While waiting for that I'm going to ask you a question about what

19 Dragan Kalinic said. He was Minister of Health; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. All right. After the -- you introduce him on page 22 of

22 the English, I won't read it all but he makes a speech about whether the

23 war option or the option of negotiation should be chosen. And he says:

24 "I say this with a reason, I must instantly add that knowing who

25 our enemy is, how perfidious they are and how they cannot be trusted

Page 21631

1 until they are physically militarily destroyed, and crushed, which of

2 course implies eliminating and liquidating their key people, I do not

3 hesitate in selecting the first option. The option of war. Because I

4 believe that our fate, the fate of the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina," he

5 goes on to say he does not link it to the fate of Serbia Montenegro, has

6 to be solved and cannot be solved in any other way but by war, and he

7 continues to say, "Why do I say the war option seems more certain?

8 Because only what has been conquered militarily can be really and truly

9 ours."

10 Now, that's not ordinarily the sort of topic I would think that

11 would be discussed in a public gallery. Do you agree?

12 A. I can explain why Mr. Kalinic said that. In my view, when I was

13 listening to this, and while I said that there were not just assemblymen,

14 I apologise, did you perhaps want to interrupt me here?

15 Q. I just wanted to make you understand my question. I wasn't

16 asking you to interpret what he said but whether that would be ordinarily

17 said in public, a discussion of whether we should choose the war option

18 and liquidate the other sides' leaders. Is that normally the kind of

19 thing that would be said in public, just so you understand my question.

20 A. At that moment, everything people said, they would say it in

21 public because they were embittered, the war had started, they were in

22 panic and under the influence of what was going on around that time.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's go to the next page which is page B/C/S,

24 page 20 in the B/C/S, page 23 in the English.

25 And here, Mr. Kalinic says:

Page 21632

1 "Also I do not fully understand fully this statement, and I want

2 it to be clarified here in this assembly, what would the proclamation of

3 a unilateral cease-fire mean for us? The reason stated was that by doing

4 this we would demonstrate to Europe that we were in favour of

5 negotiations and a peaceful solution, but please since we are in a closed

6 session of the assembly let me make it clear," and he continues to talk

7 about the military solution.

8 Reading that, does that remind you that this session was indeed

9 private? Was not open to the public?

10 A. Mr. Galic's discussion is here as well. That's why I said that

11 there were other people present, other than just the assemblymen but now

12 that you have read this out, yes, I believe that at one point, the

13 session was closed.

14 Q. And Mr. Galic, you're referring to Colonel Galic?

15 A. No. Captain Garic.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. He was there by chance, and on the terrace I remember it well,

18 there were a lot of people present, as well as in the meeting room. I

19 suppose that the record is correct. I don't know, and I can't believe

20 that somebody would have put it in incorrectly.

21 Q. Okay. I want to ask you a question now, moving on, about the map

22 that we saw yesterday. And let me make it clear I'm asking you just a

23 very technical point about the exhibits. And you'll see what -- I just

24 want to clarify something that might have been unclear yesterday.

25 Mr. Zivanovic showed you yesterday 1D1156, the statement of

Page 21633

1 principles and maybe we could have that up. This is the 18 March

2 Sarajevo statement of principles which concludes "this paper is the basis

3 for further negotiations.

4 All right. And could we just scroll through the pages which are

5 in that exhibit in English, one by one? Actually, I can speed this up.

6 There is one page from this packet missing, in the English ERN range is

7 02093996 through 02094001. And what we've got submitted is missing

8 0209400. Could I have 65 ter 3324 up now, please? Is that what we have

9 up now?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please repeat the number?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: 65 ter 3324. I'm told it is in e-court. I can

12 put it on the ELMO, perhaps.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We couldn't find it either here so there must be

14 something wrong.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm told it now might be appearing in e-court.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, we have no such exhibit on the list which

18 the Prosecution provided for cross-examination of this witness.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I can explain that. As I said,

20 Mr. Zivanovic put in this statement of principles, Cutileiro Plan, and

21 omitted one page of the ERN range, the map, and he asked about that map

22 yesterday in his direct examination and said I'm not going to ask you

23 about that map; and frankly I hadn't noticed that one page had been

24 pulled out of the range when I originally got his exhibit so I want to

25 show the witness that map just to confirm and for Your Honours that this

Page 21634

1 is the map that was spoken of that was attached to the plan.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that satisfy you, Mr. Zivanovic?

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, it is not that map. It is not the same map.

4 I have nothing to show to the witness, the map I showed him but not

5 another one.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The map you showed him was another map definitely.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: That is what precisely trying to clarify for the

8 record.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Nicholls.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay.

11 Q. Now, here, 02093996 we have the cover page which has

12 Mr. Cutileiro's name on it, if we could go to the next page, 02093997 the

13 first page of the statement of principles, if we could go to the next

14 page. 02093998. Can we go to the next page? 02093999. And if we

15 scroll down a bit, this is the last page of the statement of principles,

16 it states it's the basis for further negotiations, Sarajevo, 18 March,

17 1992, one question, this is the so-called Sarajevo Agreement, correct?

18 You need to answer orally?

19 A. Yes, this is the Sarajevo Agreement.

20 Q. Okay. 02094000, the next page. Can you just look at that, sir,

21 see if you remember, if you can confirm that this is the map that was

22 attached and was referred to as being attached to the statement of

23 principles?

24 A. Yes, that is the map that was drawn on the 18th of March and was

25 attached to the principles.

Page 21635

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. And just to round it out the end of the

2 package, next page, 02094001, that is the section entitled, "Human

3 rights," correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then just as you stated yesterday, we don't need to put it up

6 but the map which Mr. Zivanovic showed you was from sometime in May 1992,

7 from Lisbon, correct?

8 A. Yes, correct.

9 Q. Thank you. That's -- I'm done with that topic.

10 A. If I may explain, please, I'm afraid that there has been a

11 misunderstanding and that the misunderstanding remains.

12 Q. Well --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: If you feel the need to explain further, please go

14 ahead.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The map that has just been shown to

16 me by the Prosecutor is the map which depicted Serb, Muslim and Croat

17 municipalities with absolute and relative majorities according to the

18 1971, 1981 or 1991 census, and this is the map that was provided on the

19 18th of March. The map that was shown to me yesterday by Mr. Zivanovic

20 is the map that was drawn after the meeting that we had on the eve of the

21 16th session. To prove that this is correct, please refer to the minutes

22 of the meeting to see that Karadzic and Vjestica mentioned that at the

23 last meeting, Europe had accepted the border on the Una. The map that we

24 have just seen today, you can see that the border is not on the Una

25 River, and on the map that Mr. Zivanovic showed to me yesterday, the

Page 21636

1 border is on the Una River, in the western part of the state, and because

2 this had been accepted by Europe, we incorporated that into one of our

3 strategic goals so both maps are correct and what the Prosecutor said

4 today, he is correct, but with the agreement reached on the 18th of March

5 there was another map that was work in progress and we continued working

6 on it during the negotiations and there were two other conferences after

7 that. Thank you very much for allowing me the time to explain this.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Krajisnik. Let's clarify

9 something else for that matter. Do I understand you well that apart from

10 this map that you have just been shown today, there was another map

11 attached to the same report?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which was drawn at the last session

13 on the eve of the 12th of May, from which we had come to this session,

14 and that is the map shown to me yesterday.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But the map that you were shown

16 yesterday, who drew up that map?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, the representatives of the

18 Cutileiro Plan, as far as I can remember the name, the gentleman was

19 Mr. Darvin. He drew up the map, he offered it to us for inspection and

20 that map was published in various publications. Actually I can give you

21 a publication where this map was published. I have it on me here today.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I'm asking you because that was in Cyrillic

23 and also had in caption also Sarajevo singled out separate from the rest

24 and the order of presentation was also different. You had Serbian first,

25 Croatian second, Muslim third, and then Sarajevo while this one Sarajevo

Page 21637

1 is missing and the order is reversed. You have the Muslim first and so

2 on and so forth. So this is why I'm asking you because the two seem to

3 be to me at least to be somewhat different.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be given the

5 time to explain this further, also?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by all means, Mr. Krajisnik. You are here to

7 answer questions and explain whatever needs explaining. So go ahead.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The map that Mr. Zivanovic showed

9 to me yesterday, and which was preliminary drawn up in Lisbon, depicted

10 Sarajevo as a place under the three-year or five-year protectorate of the

11 United Nations and that is why it is marked and only the municipality of

12 Pale shown separately. After that time, Sarajevo would have been

13 internally divided. The rest of the Sarajevo would be split, one-third

14 would go to the Serb side, and the other two-thirds would go to the Serbs

15 and to the Croats. The city had its administration and that is one --

16 why one of our goals says that we wanted a part of Sarajevo that would

17 belong to Republika Srpska. That's why in this map it is marked

18 separately and you will see that in all the subsequent agreements that

19 Sarajevo is especially marked and there was a special agreement on the

20 divided city of Sarajevo. And there should have always been a temporary

21 solution until the final internal demarcation, it should have been only

22 internal because nobody really wanted to split up Sarajevo as a city.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Nicholls?


25 Q. One last question on this: 1D1159, the map in Cyrillic from the

Page 21638

1 Lisbon talks, the Muslim side never agreed to this map at Lisbon, did

2 they?

3 A. Well, the Serb side did not agree either. This was a map which

4 was still work in progress which called for further work but some things

5 were agreed upon and it was the proposal of the international community

6 to us to continue working on this map. So you are right.

7 Q. Good. Thank you. I'm done with the map. I would now like to go

8 through a few more military documents?

9 JUDGE KWON: Do we have 1D1159?

10 MR. NICHOLLS: I believe that's the number for the --

11 JUDGE KWON: We couldn't see it yesterday.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It was wrong number, Your Honours. It's 1160.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: I may have written the wrong number. I apologise,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It was the map I showed to the witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, we couldn't find it at the time and we put

18 it on the ELMO.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could go to 65 ter 3253?

20 Q. Now, what's going to come up before you is a 1 KK, 1st Krajina

21 Corps command document dated the 21st of May 1992. It's signed by the

22 assistant commander for morale, Vukelic, and you've seen this document

23 before and been asked about it before in your trial. If we can go

24 directly to page 2 in the English, if we scroll down I can tell whether

25 -- that's in paragraph 2 of the B/C/S. It should be there on the bottom

Page 21639

1 of the page for you. I'm going to read out the same part that was read

2 out to you in your trial.

3 "The constituent Serbian people who live on around 65 per cent of

4 the area and represent more than 35 per cent of the population of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina must struggle for complete separation from the Muslims

6 and Croatian people and form their own state. Only after that will they

7 be able to decide with whom and how they will unite and associate."

8 If we see on the last page of both English and B/C/S, at the

9 bottom, one page earlier on the B/C/S, please, it says at the very end,

10 "Inform all members of the army about this report in the most suitable

11 way." And at the bottom which is on the next page now, sorry, "Send to

12 all corps units."

13 You were asked about this document on your trial on the 12th of

14 June 2006, transcript 25554 to 25556. The same section was read out to

15 you and you were asked if that was a reference to strategic goal --

16 strategic objective number 1 and you said:

17 "This is information, Mr. Prosecutor, and this was in the

18 strategic objectives but he's not referring to the strategic objectives

19 rather he's referring to our general objectives. However, it is, yes,

20 found in the first strategic objectives. However, this is information

21 for the units. It's not an order." And a little bit further down you

22 say, "However, a link can be established with the first strategic goal, I

23 agree." Do you stand by that answer, that a link can be established

24 between this document and the first strategic goal?

25 A. I don't know what I said at my trial. I forgot. But I can

Page 21640

1 explain the background of this statement which may shed some light on

2 things, if I may put it that way.

3 Q. Okay. You can explain it, of course, but I'm just asking, I've

4 read out your answer, I can show you the transcript in English, if you

5 need it, but do you want to change your answer or do you stick by that

6 same answer?

7 A. No. Well, I don't have my whole transcript, and it's very

8 difficult for me to explain based on just one segment. I can provide

9 further explanation, and if the two don't tally, you may say that I'm not

10 consistent, and that's that. I can't give you my answer based on just

11 this one segment. I have not had the whole transcript after my trial.

12 But let me tell you why this could be logical, why this could make some

13 sort of sense, if you will.

14 Q. All right. Then the question is, just so you know, you can

15 answer it without reference to your sic-ing, do you agree there was a

16 link between what Vukelic wrote in this document and the first strategic

17 objective?

18 A. I think that Mr. Vukelic was not authorised to inform anybody

19 about the six strategic goals and if he did it, he did it in the way he

20 understood this. However, he was neither authorised nor instructed. He

21 could have done it only after the 9th of July when this was made public

22 and when the map was published. Before that he could have said whatever

23 he wanted to say based on how he understood things.

24 Q. Okay.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, it's not okay, Mr. Nicholls. Do I take

Page 21641

1 your answer, it's a kind of an oblique answer you answered the question

2 at a tangents more or less. Am I right in understanding your question as

3 indirectly agreeing with what was proposed to you by the Prosecution?

4 Namely that rightly or wrongly, in this document, Mr. Vukelic, what

5 Mr. Vukelic is saying constitutes a link with the first strategic

6 objective?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you will allow me

8 just to say a few sentences before I answer your question.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the negotiations, under the

11 auspices of the international community, there were different proposals

12 as to how to solve the crisis in Bosnia-Herzegovina. One of the

13 proposals that was tabled was a division of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I can

14 provide you with that paper. In his book Mr. Owen said it ever so

15 nicely. So there were various combinations at steak. In the Cutileiro

16 Plan our position was the position of a compromise. Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina was to be decentralised, three constituent units would be

18 defined according to the geographic, ethnic and other principles. What

19 Mr. Vukelic interpreted, based on what he had heard at the assembly

20 session, that is his view, which he certainly must have based on the

21 strategic goals, but this is not a correct interpretation. He was not

22 authorised to provide any interpretations for that matter. That is my

23 answer. I can provide you with a paper to show you that a division of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina was always on the table as one of the options.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's clear enough. Thank you,

Page 21642

1 Mr. Krajisnik. Mr. Nicholls?


3 Q. 65 ter 3308, please. This is a Main Staff of the army of the RS

4 strictly confidential, extremely urgent, directive for further actions,

5 from the 6th of June 1992, and it's signed by General Mladic. This is

6 another document you've seen before. This is less than a month after the

7 16th Assembly session. I want to recall what strategic goal 2 was, as

8 printed, set up a corridor between Semberija and Krajina. I'd like to

9 look now at page 2 of the document, and it's page 2 in both English and

10 B/C/S. Under the heading, "The goal of the action," paragraph B.

11 "Ensure contact between Semberija and Bosnian Krajina. Reject enemy

12 forces farther away from the road, communication, and make it possible

13 for normal traffic to take place." I'll read one more section to you

14 before I ask you a question. If we turn to the next page, in the

15 English, it's still the -- we can scroll down on the B/C/S, here,

16 General Mladic is talking about the stages of the operation of the

17 directive. "In the second stage, in duration of four to six days, create

18 the corridor between Semberija and Bosnian Krajina." And it continues:

19 "To extend the corridor permanently." That is strategic goal 2, almost

20 verbatim, isn't it?

21 A. No. This is not a strategic goal. This is a military goal which

22 was brought about by the death of the 12 babies in Banja Luka. The

23 military did this irrespective of strategic goals. We had agreed upon

24 the strategic goal 2 with the Croatian side in Graz. There is a paper

25 showing how to do it by political means. That was what was incorporated

Page 21643

1 into our strategic goals. I can provide you with a document that

2 reflects that agreement. And this was a move that had been forced by the

3 interrupted communications between Semberija and Krajina as a result of

4 which 12 babies died in Banja Luka and the military wanted to deal with

5 that with military terms but that had nothing to do with our political

6 goals, the political goals that had been agreed upon by -- with the other

7 side in Graz, as I've told you.

8 Q. So the goal as you a say is exactly the same but you're saying

9 they are completely?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a coincidence?


12 Q. It's a coincidence, exactly.

13 A. I don't know. I don't want to comment. It's not my right to do

14 so.

15 Q. I'll move on. 3254. We are going back to Bosanska Krupa, to

16 talk about that a little bit. I want to read this entire short document.

17 This is from the War Presidency of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanska

18 Krupa. On the 22nd of May 1992. It's an order issued by the president

19 of the War Presidency, Gojko Klickovic. And I'm sure you remember but

20 keep in mind what Mr. Vjestica said 10 days earlier in Banja Luka, at the

21 16th Assembly session. The order states, "To evacuate the remaining

22 Muslim population from the territory of the Serbian municipality Bosanska

23 Krupa." And then it goes on to state that it needs to be executed by

24 8.00 on the 24th of May.

25 In your trial you referred to other orders as orders for ethnic

Page 21644

1 cleansing. Is this an order for ethnic cleansing?

2 A. I don't know anything about this order. There were no

3 communications between us. I don't know whether this evacuation is about

4 an offer for somebody to go somewhere or whether people had been

5 expelled. You should ask Mr. Klickovic or Mr. Vjestica. Mr. Klickovic

6 is currently on trial in Sarajevo for war crimes. I really wouldn't be

7 able to answer that question.

8 Q. He's currently on trial for war crimes in Bosanska Krupa,

9 correct? Murder, torture, forcible displacement?

10 A. See, I've helped you there. I've helped you understand. Didn't

11 I?

12 Q. Actually, I already knew he was on trial for these crimes, in the

13 state court in Bosnia, correct? You need to answer verbally. You nodded

14 your head but could you please say yes or no verbally?

15 A. Yes, he's in Sarajevo actually.

16 Q. And this is the municipality where, as Mr. Vjestica said and you

17 agreed with me yesterday, Serbs were 24 per cent of the population,

18 correct? Correct?

19 A. Yes. But they had 75 per cent of the territory of the

20 municipality, and they made up 25 per cent of the total population, yes.

21 Q. You say there was no communication, but 10 days earlier,

22 Mr. Vjestica addressed the entire assembly and said let me report to you,

23 the assembly, on what's happening in Krupa, correct?

24 A. Yes. But yesterday I wanted to explain things, but you wouldn't

25 let me tell you why he said what he did, and further on, what he said in

Page 21645

1 the statement provided to you.

2 Q. The Trial Chamber may give you the opportunity to say that. The

3 reason I did not want you to explain that is because I'm not interested

4 in his explanation for what he said. I was interested in the record of

5 what he said at the assembly. Just so you understand.

6 Could we go to the next document, 3255?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Nicholls. Mr. Zivanovic?

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, but such answer might be misleading. I

9 would like to give the witness opportunity to explain this.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I think it's entirely in Your Honour's hands. My

12 questions were about what Mr. Vjestica said at the assembly session. I'm

13 not particularly interested in Mr. Vjestica's explanation for why he said

14 those things because I'm sure that he -- I'm just not interested in that.

15 Or the witness's interpretation of it.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 MR. NICHOLLS: And Your Honours, sorry, that could be a matter

18 for redirect if he wants to.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's precisely what we are discussing, but

20 at the same time, if that would be the only question on redirect, we

21 might as well deal with it now and avoid the redirect.

22 Mr. Krajisnik, rather, Mr. Zivanovic first, as things are at the

23 moment, do you plan a redirect or not?

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I do, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then we leave it for the redirect. You can

Page 21646

1 ask Mr. Krajisnik the question. Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go to 3258, please?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: 3258, actually.

5 This is a related document I'd like to go through with you.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, we have the wrong one, 3255, in fact,

7 sorry.

8 Q. Again, from the War Presidency of the Serbian Municipality of

9 Bosanska Krupa, 25th of May 1992, so the day after the deadline in the

10 order we just looked at expired. This is now a proposal rather than

11 order. It's headed, by president of the War Presidency, Gojko Klickovic.

12 And it's to the command of the 1st Podgrmec Brigade in Serbian Jasenica.

13 One, of the proposal to carry outs all military preparations concerning

14 the cleansing of the left bank of the Una River, including the right bank

15 of the Una in the action in the area above Bosanska Otoka. Two, in

16 course of preparations and cleansing of the left bank of the Una, destroy

17 and pull down as many residential and other buildings as possible

18 including demolishing of tunnels setting the pine wood in Tecija area on

19 fire, and cleaning up the Kalender canal. Prepare the troops to hold on

20 to the left bank of the Una for as long as it takes to withdraw material,

21 if any, until the bridges in Bosanska Krupa and Bosanska Otoka have been

22 prepared to be blown up, until the right bank of the Una has been

23 fortified in a better way.

24 If you recall, Mr. Vjestica's speech at the 16th Assembly

25 session, he said, "And now we are preparing for Bosanska Otoka. God

Page 21647

1 willing in 2 to 3 days we shall mine the bridge in Bosanska Otoka."

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry for that, but we needed to discuss something,

4 Mr. Nicholls. Go ahead, please.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

6 Q. And that's correct, in his report, Mr. Vjestica talked about the

7 plan to blow up or mine this bridge, correct? In his report to the

8 assembly?

9 A. Mr. Vjestica explained it all to you, in the interview he gave

10 you. I have nothing to do with it. I can only explain how I understood

11 his words at the assembly as he confirmed in his interview subsequently.

12 That has nothing to do with the six strategic goals. He himself said

13 that they had done all that before the six strategic goals were put in

14 place, well not this one, this one came later, it seems.

15 Q. Yes. And I don't want to go over it again but he did refer to

16 the happy news that the Una was going to be the border, correct? In the

17 16th Assembly session?

18 A. Yes. And in the interview he said he boasted about it. He

19 wanted to become more popular.

20 Q. He boasted that the Muslims, he did not think, would be

21 returning.

22 Now, let's go to the reasons for this proposal. The first one,

23 political determination to have the border of Serbian municipality

24 autonomous region Banja Luka, Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

25 Serbian state established along the river Una up to Bosanska Otoka.

Page 21648

1 Strategic objective 4, as printed in the gazette, as discussed in

2 the assembly session, establish a border at the Una and Neretva rivers.

3 Mr. Klickovic is citing strategic objective 4 as one of the

4 reasons for this proposal, correct?

5 A. No. You see, we had agreed the Una as the border as early as

6 Lisbon. It was before the strategic goals. And it was also decided that

7 that should be resolved by political means rather than military means.

8 That was also in the presentation of Mr. Karadzic. That's why we stated

9 the Una was the border of our future maps. And of course this person

10 mentioned it. I don't know why but he did.

11 Q. Okay. So is that another coincidence, he's mentioning the exact

12 language of strategic objective 4, 13 days later?

13 A. I cannot comment. I can neither confirm nor deny. I don't know

14 what Mr. Klickovic said. He probably was informed that it was

15 politically agreed that the future border would be along the Una and then

16 he made use of it the way he saw fit. He probably knew about it because

17 Mr. Vjestica was at the assembly. He probably knew that it had been

18 agreed that the map would be such that the border would go along the Una.

19 That was supposed to be the political solution.

20 Q. And he's got that -- sorry, not to continue on this too long --

21 as the reason to evacuate, cleanse, the area.

22 A. I can say again what Mr. Vjestica told you in his interview. He

23 said they wanted to leave, we did not expel them. We helped them leave

24 for their own security. That's what he told you. And I can merely

25 repeat it to you. And that was the way I interpreted his words at the

Page 21649

1 assembly. As to whether it was indeed so, only he can know.

2 Q. Let's go to 3258. 28th of May 1992, brigade command Birac, order

3 to the Zvornik Territorial Defence Staff. Now 16 days after the assembly

4 session. Signed by commander Svetozar Andric. I'm interested in

5 paragraph 6.

6 "The moving out of the Muslim population must be organised and

7 coordinated with the municipalities through which the moving is carried

8 out. Only women and children can move out while men fit for military

9 service are to be placed in camps for exchange."

10 Now, in your trial, they found that putting people, men, in camps

11 was one of the methods of cleansing. Do you agree that putting people in

12 these camps as we see in this order here was a way of cleansing them out

13 of Zvornik?

14 A. This document is incriminating. It was something that my

15 Major Andric ordered without having considered the consequences. One

16 needs to bear in mind that in the header, it says, "Command of the

17 Brigade of the Serb army" which as such did not exist. Then you have

18 Birac and then up the military post of the former JNA. He sent this to

19 the TO staff in Zvornik which by that time did not exist, since the army

20 had been formed at the time. This is all very confusing. He was trying

21 to find his way through the situation. Maybe he could explain to you

22 better what he was trying to do. But of course it was impermissible to

23 arrest and detain anyone without a need to do so.

24 Q. And doesn't that also, this order, the goal in this order of

25 removing the population from Zvornik, fit in with strategic goals 1 and

Page 21650

1 3?

2 A. It has absolutely nothing to do with it. That man was in the

3 region. He wasn't familiar with the strategic goals, and I don't think

4 he could have referred to them. This is how we -- how he acted locally.

5 He was engaged by the region. There is another order that we didn't see

6 here. In any case, this does not have anything to do with the six

7 strategic goals and I stated that at my trial.

8 Q. 3261. This is a 2nd of June 1 KK report to the Main Staff of the

9 VRS. Paragraph 2 at the bottom, it's a regular combat report, by the

10 way, signed for General Talic, the 1 KK commander. And it states:

11 "In the area of Derventa there continues to be occasional

12 artillery fire while because the Muslim extremists have failed to hand in

13 their weapons, the Muslim population of the area of Lisnja village has

14 been expelled."

15 Now, the Trial Chamber in your case found that you had demanded

16 that new ethnic facts be created on the ground. It's para 1076. This

17 document reflects in Lisnja the creation of those new ethnic facts,

18 doesn't it?

19 A. What do you base your qualifications upon?

20 Q. Well, the documents we have been looking at. I know it began

21 earlier. But this is another document showing, as the others we've seen,

22 showing the expulsion of the Muslim population, correct?

23 A. The village of Lisnja is in the municipality of Prnjavor. Mr.

24 Nemanja Vasic municipal president, testified. He explained the entire

25 process. He said that he returned the Muslims to Lisnja so that they

Page 21651

1 wouldn't leave. He said that they were not expelled. The problem was

2 resolved and that he did not notify any of us from the leadership

3 concerning the process. It took place locally, following the request of

4 the Muslims. In his words, there was no expulsion, and it had nothing to

5 do with the six strategic objectives, that's the truth of it.

6 Q. And we are not going to retry all the expulsions from the ARK but

7 then, just so I understand you, you don't have to keep saying it, are you

8 saying that in each of these instances the Muslims left on their own

9 accord out of fear and they were helped by the local SDS authorities? Is

10 that what you claim?

11 A. I am stating that the way the Muslim expulsion from the territory

12 of Republika Srpska was qualified is to say the least not completely

13 true. And I can explain further what information I base this on. I

14 stated this in my appeal. If you're interested to hear, I'll explain why

15 it isn't true that the Muslims were all expelled from Republika Srpska,

16 as they would have it.

17 Q. While we are briefly on Prnjavor, did you personally know

18 Veljko Milankovic?

19 A. I didn't personally know Veljko Milankovic.

20 Q. If we have time we will look at documents about him later but do

21 you agree with me he was a criminal?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Mr. Zivanovic?

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It requires clarification, what does it mean,

24 criminal?

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I can --

Page 21652

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I mean I understand the word criminal but

2 maybe you need to explain further.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: I can rephrase it to make my friend --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Someone with a criminal record?


6 Q. Do you agree with me that Veljko Milankovic led a paramilitary

7 group called the Wolves of Vucjak? In the early 1990s?

8 A. Mr. Milankovic, the late Mr. Milankovic, led the Wolves of Vucjak

9 which at first was an independent unit and later became part of the 1st

10 Krajina Corps. You are correct. He commanded the unit.

11 Q. Do you agree with me that when he commanded the unit, let's talk

12 now about just when it was independent, that it committed crimes which

13 I'll define as shooting at, blowing up buildings, harassing the Muslim

14 population of Prnjavor?

15 A. I am familiar with the issue. I know what you are getting at.

16 And I'll explain. At a certain moment, I commended Milankovic. I think

17 you're getting at that. I can explain why it was done. It is my opinion

18 now that he was a criminal, that we weren't able to control him, and I

19 can explain what my reasons were to hold the opinion I did at the time

20 and why I'm holding this opinion now.

21 Q. All right. Well, just let me break that up a bit and you can

22 explain. You agree with me that when he was the leader of the

23 paramilitary unit, he engaged in criminal acts against the Muslim

24 population? Just yes or no. Do you agree with that? And then you can

25 explain why you praised him.

Page 21653

1 A. I cannot say that he committed -- that he was a criminal, but I

2 can state that he committed criminal acts and that he was harassing

3 Muslims, yes.

4 Q. All right. Now, explain, if you want to, why you praised that

5 man.

6 A. In 1995, I believe, I was at a gathering in Prnjavor. It was

7 then that the local authorities, to whom Mr. Milankovic was a hero and a

8 positive character, talked to me about him as someone who had been a hero

9 and was killed defending the Serbian people, and at that pre-election

10 gathering, I praised Mr. Milankovic and his unit. From the documents I

11 saw later, I realised that before the war he had a criminal record, that

12 he had served sentences, and that he also had a special unit which in a

13 way created chaos in town, shooting, harassing Muslims. As for any other

14 criminal acts, I don't know whether he committed any. By virtue of Mr.

15 Galic's [as interpreted] order, that unit became a regular unit of the

16 1st Krajina Corps. That's the truth why I behaved the way I did and why

17 today, after all the information I saw, I believe that he was so to say a

18 person who was in conflict with law before and during the war. And that

19 was the position he entered the war from.

20 Q. And again, as you say, make it clear, he was a hero to the local

21 authorities in Prnjavor?

22 A. Yes. That is what they told me, and they still hold that

23 opinion. Almost 90 per cent of his unit was killed in action and that is

24 how people see those things.

25 Q. 3262, please? I'll do this very quickly. This is a document

Page 21654

1 you've seen before. Sanski Most Crisis Staff, conclusions from the 4th

2 of June 1992. And the conclusions are formed by Nedeljko Rasula, who was

3 president of the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most and also of the War

4 Presidency. Colonel Nedjo Anicic, Sanski Most TO. And we also see

5 references to having a talk with Colonel Stevilovic from the 1st Krajina

6 Corps. The conclusions in 1 are that Mirko Vrucinic, I believe was the

7 vice-president of the Crisis Staff, Nedeljko Rasula and Nedjo Anicic

8 shall be in charge of resolving the issue of prisoners and their

9 categorisation and deportation to Manjaca. Let's look quickly at the

10 categories. One, politicians, 2, nationalist extremists, 3, people

11 unwelcome in Sanski Most municipality.

12 First, do you agree with me that Manjaca camp was a VRS prison

13 camp?

14 A. I truly need to object. I don't know why I need to answer such

15 questions. I explained all that in my trial, and this shouldn't be

16 another trial for me. It is a well known fact that Manjaca was a

17 military prison, but I didn't know at the time that it existed or

18 anything else for that matter. As for these conclusion, when it was

19 discussed, I said I wasn't privy to it and why it was done. It has

20 nothing to do with the six strategic objectives and with the gist of the

21 testimony I was supposed to provide here. If the goal is to use this

22 testimony to my detriment in my appeal, I have to ask the Chamber to

23 relieve me of the need to voluntarily answer these questions. However, I

24 will do so if I am ordered by the Chamber.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krajisnik, it was a very simple question. You

Page 21655

1 made it sound complicated and complicated it further. It was simple

2 question asking you do you agree that Manjaca camp was a VRS prison camp?

3 And you should have answered either yes or no. Irrespective of whether

4 you came to know about that at the time or later. If you need to explain

5 that, of course you have a right to. Otherwise, let's proceed.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, I am not

7 objecting to this question alone but rather to all the questions which

8 are beyond the scope of the six strategic objectives. If it is necessary

9 for me to explain what my view of ethnic cleansing is, I will do so. As

10 for the rest, I object because I see this as an attempt to harm me in my

11 appeal proceedings. I've already answered that to my knowledge Manjaca

12 was a military camp.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. Let me just consult with my

14 colleagues on one thing and then we continue.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. How much more do you have,

17 Mr. Nicholls?

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Actually, I think I would -- I have some more -- I

19 have probably another -- I would finish sometime next session. I can

20 move it up.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Then this is our suggestion to you. Please try to

22 move it up because we are wondering and wandering in a territory that may

23 have much less importance than all of you might think.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: All right, if you give me one moment, Your

25 Honours. All right. I'll skip ahead a little bit and go to P29,

Page 21656

1 directive 4. This is the 19th of November 1992, if we could go to, we

2 have seen this before so I won't go through it much. Go to page 5 in the

3 English. Apparently it's page 11 on the B/C/S.

4 Q. Something you were asked about in your trial. It states, "The

5 Drina Corps from its present position, under paragraph D, its main forces

6 shall persistently defend Visegrad, the dam, Zvornik and the corridor

7 while the rest of its forces in the wider Podrinje region so exhaust the

8 enemy, inflict the heaviest possible losses on him and force him to leave

9 the Birac, Zepa and Gorazde areas together with the Muslim population."

10 Now, just very quickly, you discussed this order in your trial

11 and in a question -- and you agreed that this language was an order for

12 ethnic cleansing, correct?

13 A. Yes. I said that I do not understand why Mr. Mladic wrote this

14 because it's not what I heard from him. I also said that before this

15 directive, on the 17th of October, and in December, I provided two

16 statements in which I firmly stood against ethnic cleansing. That is my

17 full answer.

18 As for this being permissible or whether it is ethnic cleansing,

19 one could interpret it that way, of course. Why would the population

20 leave, if there was no other reason for them to leave? Why should they

21 leave if their army left? However, I'm no soldier and I don't know why

22 this would be logical. You need a professional to resolve this. I can

23 only comment upon this in lay terms. I was rather surprised to see this

24 as part of this directive, and I was also able to read it here in this

25 Court.

Page 21657

1 Q. Thank you. 65 ter number 3307. This is the 53rd session of the

2 RS Assembly from 20th August 1995. I'd ask to go to page 68 of the

3 English, B/C/S page 87.

4 A. Can you tell me where this session was held?

5 Q. Yes. Jahorina Pale.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you -- on the second page it says that you were the chairman.

8 I want to read out to you one part of something Mr. Karadzic said at this

9 assembly session. Again, August 1995.

10 "We absolutely cannot let ourselves get any ideas about them

11 taking our traditional territories from us. To tell the truth, there are

12 towns that we've grabbed for ourselves and there were only 30 per cent of

13 us. I can name as many of those as you want but we cannot give up the

14 towns where we made up 70 per cent. Don't let this get around, but

15 remember how many of us there were in Bratunac, how many in Srebrenica,

16 how many in Visegrad, how many in Rogatica."

17 JUDGE KWON: Could you help me find the passage?

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Page 68 of the English -- 69 of the English,

19 sorry.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the reason I don't think we have --

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour, it splits over. It should be

22 at the top of page 69.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, all right. Okay.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My screen should be moved as well.

25 I don't have that part of the text.

Page 21658


2 Q. All right.

3 A. Thank you.

4 Q. I'll just finish quickly. "How many in Srebrenica, how many in

5 Visegrad, how many in Rogatica, how many in Vlasenica, in Zvornik,

6 et cetera. Due to strategic importance they had to become ours and no

7 one is practically questioning it any more."

8 Now, he's talking there about these towns along the Drina, a

9 thing of strategic importance, is that related to strategic goal 3 or is

10 it coincidental?

11 A. It is not coincidental, but it's not the third strategic

12 objective either. 430.000 Serbs left the federation for Republika

13 Srpska. And 430.000 Muslims went the other way. Mr. Karadzic says, "We

14 are now losing the territory where there -- where we were in majority,

15 holding on to the towns where we were in minority." And now no one is

16 questioning that. Traditionally speaking we had the majorities in

17 certain areas, and now it was on the other side. This probably had to do

18 with the contact group plan. That is why he was talking about it, trying

19 to persuade the deputies and to explain to them why not all of their

20 towns can be in the map itself. He was trying to explain the principles

21 of win some, lose some. This was probably a part of a plan, but I cannot

22 see it here.

23 Q. Okay. Win some, lose some. And the win he's talking about

24 there, just the plain meaning --

25 A. He was discussing the map, and what we gained and what we lost.

Page 21659

1 You can find the agenda. Probably you'll see a reference to the contact

2 group plan. Here he's saying, "We were in the minority here and we hold

3 that territory. And on this part we were in the majority, and we don't

4 have it." That's why he's trying to explain that.

5 Q. Right. But isn't he also talking in the very plain meaning where

6 he says grabbed about these towns, where Serbs, as he said, were in a

7 minority, they have now been taken and it's a fact that he's not going to

8 change, they have been grabbed?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a document

11 which is a very long document. I think the Prosecutor is saying

12 something and the witness is saying something else. I don't think one

13 could take this sentence from the context. Maybe we should have a hard

14 copy and give a hard copy to the witness to know exactly what is in the

15 document. Because I don't believe we'll manage to find our way in all of

16 this.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau. Do you wish to comment

18 or proceed with your next question?

19 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll proceed, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead, then.


22 Q. Okay. This is -- this is -- I just wanted you to comment on this

23 statement which was put forward in this trial as a quote basic fact.

24 On April 8th, 2007, an attack was conducted on Zvornik. Many

25 units were involved in this attack including units of the Zvornik

Page 21660

1 Territorial Defence which were commanded by Branko Popovic?

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, the date is wrong. It is page 31, line

3 17. The year is wrong.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Oh, I'm sorry, yes, on April 8, 1992 an attack was

5 conducted on Zvornik.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.

7 Q. "Many units were involved in this attack including units of the

8 Zvornik Territorial Defence which were commanded by Branko Popovic,

9 Marko Pavlovic and other paramilitary units such as Arkan's units. This

10 attack was conducted pursuant to a plan which was adopted by the Serbian

11 Democratic Party which wanted to take over the municipality of Zvornik to

12 chase out the Muslim population, and to proclaim this territory as a

13 Serbian municipality." That's the position taken by counsel for

14 Drago Nikolic in this case. Do you agree with that statement? I can

15 give the reference?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic?

17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Defence counsel cannot

18 have such a position. Could we please be given a reference? I suppose

19 this comes from a Prosecution statement.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: No, this is --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls?

22 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm happy to do that. That was Mr. Bourgon on the

23 6th of September 2007, transcript reference 14934 to 14935,

24 cross-examination of PW 108.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I notice that you are alone today, Ms. Nikolic. Do

Page 21661

1 you wish some time to check that?

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we proceed in the meantime or do you wish us to

4 wait?

5 MR. NICHOLLS: I can give her the transcript reference?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm asking the question because I'm trying to be

7 pragmatic.

8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we have a break

9 now so that I can check the transcript?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are four minutes away from the break in any

11 case. This is why I asked the question. It would give the opportunity

12 to counsel to check and then you can proceed afterwards. Shall we have a

13 25-minute break now? Good.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic?

17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I totally

18 object to the question put by my learned friend on page 31 of the record

19 at lines 15 and 16. Mr. Krajisnik has not been invited to provide any

20 comments on the cross-examination of Defence counsel, but to testify to

21 the truth and to the facts and to help the Trial Chamber as much as

22 possible in this case. Further, on transcript page on which my learned

23 friend referred to reflect the wording of the questions that refer to the

24 credibility of witness number 108, his involvement in the events, rather

25 than the position of the Defence of Mr. Drago Nikolic, a party, Defence

Page 21662

1 counsel, in the case cannot have a position. Therefore, I would kindly

2 ask the Trial Chamber to order the witness to refrain from commenting

3 upon the evidence provided by other witnesses in the case because this

4 has nothing to do with the facts that the witness has been invited to

5 testify about.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. At least it has served the purpose,

7 Madam Nikolic in that you have had an opportunity to clarify. Yes,

8 Mr. Nicholls, would you like to comment or would you prefer to rephrase

9 the question without reference to the position taken or not taken by the

10 Drago Nikolic Defence?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I will rephrase the question. I think it's fair

12 to comment on a position taken by the Defence when the Defence says this

13 is an established fact.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's not comment on that in the presence of

15 the witness. I am suggesting that you rephrase the question without any

16 reference to the position taken or not taken by the Nikolic Defence team.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

18 Q. Sir, do you agree or disagree with the statement that there was

19 an attack on April 8th 1992 in Zvornik, the units involved in the attack

20 were the Zvornik TO, commanded by Branko Popovic and Marko -- or

21 Marko Pavlovic is the other name and other paramilitary units such as

22 Arkan's units and that this attack was conducted pursuant to a plan

23 adopted by the Serbian Democratic Party which wanted to take over the

24 municipality of Zvornik to chase out the Muslim population and to

25 proclaim this territory as a Serbian municipality? And I ask if you

Page 21663

1 agree or disagree with that statement.

2 A. I don't know anything about that. And I can't provide a positive

3 answer. I only know that there was an armed conflict. That's the extent

4 of my knowledge.

5 Q. I want to go now to a military report. This is P414. It's a

6 large report you've seen before, RS -- VRS Main Staff military secret,

7 strictly confidential analysis of the combat readiness and activities of

8 the army of Republika Srpska in 1992 dated Han Pijesak 1993. I'll just

9 ask a few questions about this report, sir, as the military operations

10 are explained in relation to political goals.

11 I'd like to go first to page 7 of the English, page 8 of the

12 B/C/S. I'm just going to read out a couple portions to you and then ask

13 you if you agree with me on what they mean.

14 This is under the section, "Control and command." First

15 sentence. "In the past year the army of Republika Srpska has evolved

16 into the highest strategic organisational formation of the Serbian people

17 in former Bosnia-Herzegovina capable of realising strategic and other

18 tasks assigned to it by the Supreme Command." I'd like you to keep that

19 statement in mind while I go on to the next section I want to ask you

20 about.

21 English page 69, B/C/S page 62. It's a section --

22 A. Could this page be put on the screen? I have a problem following

23 you. I can't see the page on the screen. I don't know whether this is

24 the same text.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you on video mode or not? Madam Usher, could

Page 21664

1 you check, please, just to make sure and assist Mr. Krajisnik.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the document before me, but

3 I don't have the text, the portion of the text that the Prosecutor is

4 reading at the moment.


6 Q. Do you see section 4.1 in front of you?

7 A. No -- oh, well, yes, 4.1, yes, I can see it.

8 Q. Do you need this to be larger so you can read the text? Is that

9 what you're saying?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Yes. I can see it, but it is now only now that it is okay on the

13 screen.

14 Q. If you want a hard copy, let me know.

15 A. No need. This should do.

16 Q. Okay. This is section 4.1, organisation and establishment, and

17 it's a bit of a historical section of this report. If we go down to the

18 fourth paragraph, to make this quicker, rather than reading it all:

19 "From the beginning of interethnic conflict from mid-March to 19

20 May, these forces succeeded in protecting the Serbian people from

21 large-scale massacre and partially in protecting territories inhabited

22 predominantly or wholly by Serbs. However, they failed to achieve the

23 main strategic objectives of the armed struggle of the Serbian people in

24 former Bosnia-Herzegovina."

25 Next paragraph continuing to talk about this early formation.

Page 21665

1 "They failed to open up and secure core through the Sava River

2 valley, Posavina, between the Krajina and the FRY, or a corridor which

3 would link Herzegovina with the FRY via the Drina River valley. They

4 failed to gain control over considerable part of the territory of former

5 BH which historically and ethnically belonged to Serbian people."

6 Now, do you agree, disagree, you can explain or you don't know,

7 that this reference here to opening up the two corridors are linked to

8 strategic objectives 2 and 3?

9 A. Well, at the time, there was a corridor between Semberija and

10 Krajina. As far as I can remember, there was also a corridor between

11 Romanija and Semberija. If you go back to the beginning, when you said

12 that you had mentioned the strategic goals, please read them and see what

13 the strategic goals of the army were. None of them reflects any of the

14 strategic goals from the decision of the six strategic goals. I know

15 that. I objected to that in my appeal. Go back and see what the

16 strategic goals of the army were.

17 Q. Okay. Well, we can talk about that, but then last question just

18 to make sure I understand completely, the corridor from the Krajina to

19 Serbia Semberija --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Zivanovic?

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would just tell that the translation does not

22 reflect the exact words by Mr. Krajisnik. There are two words from

23 B/C/S, "strateski" and "strategijski." But they are -- they were

24 translated in the same -- with the same --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And what's the difference between the two if I may

Page 21666

1 ask?

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Because "strategijski" is the military

3 expression, as far as I understood the witness, but "strateski" is

4 political objective.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. But I think, having followed the

6 interpretation upon Mr. Krajisnik's testimony, that's how I understood

7 it, that there was a distinction between the two strategic goals, that of

8 the military and that of the political -- that of the politicians or the

9 political framework. So let's proceed, but thank you for pointing that

10 out.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay.

12 Q. I'll move on but quickly. You agreed on the 28th of June or you

13 recalled that on the 28th of June 1992, the corridor was broken through

14 from Krajina to Serbia, correct? That's when the military created that

15 corridor?

16 A. Correct. On or around that date, I believe.

17 Q. Yes. And does that not represent the achievement by the military

18 of strategic objective 2 from the 16th Assembly session, even if you say

19 these are parallel, exactly the same objectives?

20 A. Well, I'm saying that at the 16th Assembly session, we

21 interpreted what had been agreed with the Croatian side, as to how to

22 deal with the corridor. And you have that in the record. Since it could

23 not be achieved through negotiations, and as a result of the humanitarian

24 collapse in Banja Luka, the military did not because of that paper, not

25 because of the six strategic goals but because of the situation. In

Page 21667

1 order to be able to bring oxygen and humanitarian goal to Krajina, one of

2 the six strategic goals was also access to the sea, but the military did

3 not remain on the coast. They were there but they withdrew. The six

4 strategic goals were a lot of things but they were not the basis for

5 military action. The situation called for the humanitarian salvation

6 being brought to Krajina, and this is as much as I could understand the

7 situation.

8 Q. I'd like to go to page 158 of the English, 138 of the B/C/S.

9 This is entitled, "Basic characteristics of the operational tactical

10 utilization of the army of Republika Srpska."

11 Is the text big enough for you to read?

12 A. Could this be enlarged a little bit more? Thank you.

13 Q. Okay. This first sentence, just going quickly through it,

14 similar to the one we looked at a moment ago:

15 "In the past year 1992, from self-organised units at the local

16 level, the VRS has grown into the highest strategic organisational

17 formation of the Serbian people in the former BH, capable of realising

18 strategic and other objectives assigned to it by the Supreme Command and

19 the president of the Republika Srpska as the Supreme Commander."

20 I want to go to, this is still on the same page in B/C/S but page

21 159 of the English, and we could scroll down and to the fourth paragraph,

22 please, for the witness. There is no fourth paragraph. It's -- it's a

23 paragraph in B/C/S on page 138 which begins, "This military organisation

24 developed quickly." It's the bottom paragraph, I believe. Now, in here

25 we see:

Page 21668

1 "The strategic objectives of the war were promptly set and Main

2 Staff of the VRS the command and the units served as a general guideline

3 upon which we planned the operations and concerted battles. This means

4 that the objectives were set before us rather than specific tasks spelled

5 out although the president of the republic as the Supreme Commander of

6 the armed forces of the RS did orally assign a number of tasks which were

7 of general and vital significance to our struggle in protecting the

8 Serbian people and its territories. The Main Staff of the army of RS

9 translated the said objectives and tasks into general and individual

10 missions of the army of RS and of the individual operational and tactical

11 formations with the goals of every individual combat action operation or

12 battle being specifically defined."

13 Now, here, isn't this report saying that the army behaved not

14 independently but as it should as an army of the RS and strove to achieve

15 the objectives put before it by the political leadership?

16 A. Well, I was not a Supreme Commander, I did not write support. I

17 cannot help you. You can ask about that, Mr. Gvero and the other

18 generals or Mr. Karadzic when you bring him here.

19 Q. Okay. But you did attend some meetings of the Supreme Command,

20 you testified about that in your trial.

21 A. The Supreme Command was set up as an advisory body, towards the

22 end of 1992. I did attend some of its meetings, but I would not answer

23 these questions because they have nothing whatsoever to do with the six

24 strategic objectives.

25 Q. Okay. Well, what I'm putting to you, you were a member of the

Page 21669

1 government, you were speaker of the assembly, you went to some meetings

2 of the Supreme Command. What this says is that the army carried out the

3 objectives put before it by the political leadership. As a member of

4 that political leadership, is it true or not true or you can't say, what

5 is written here?

6 A. I did not issue any orders. I don't know anything about that

7 communication. Mr. Karadzic knows that. The army members know that.

8 And they can explain how the communication went. And what I can tell you

9 is what those meetings were and what the agenda of these meetings was.

10 That's all.

11 Q. Were you in Vlasenica with Karadzic just before Srebrenica fell?

12 A. I know what you're asking me. I don't know whether I ever

13 entered that building or not. I haven't a clue. But I did not know

14 anything about that operation. I know what you're asking me, and this is

15 what -- my answer.

16 Q. Go to page 160 in the English, B/C/S page 139.

17 At the very bottom of page 159 in the English it starts saying

18 that these are priorities that they are talking about on the next page.

19 At the bottom of the first paragraph of the English:

20 "In the last month and a half our operations have concentrated on

21 the liberation of Podrinje as thereby the strategic objective of our war

22 would be realised. One that could be defined as 'establishing contact

23 with Serbia on the river Drina or the Drina ceasing to be a frontier.'"

24 Now there again, strategic goal 3 nearly verbatim is being set forth as a

25 goal which must be realised militarily, correct? It's the plain meaning

Page 21670

1 of this military report?

2 A. Well, you can see on this page what the strategic goals of the

3 army were. The military did not have a task to break a corridor with

4 military means. At the 16th session we spoke about the exchange of

5 territories in order to achieve a corridor. That was the whole point.

6 After everything that happened, because of the situation on the ground,

7 because of the circumstances that prevailed, all this happened, but I am

8 not aware of anybody issuing an order to the military to act upon any of

9 the goals, and I really cannot see a link being established or how would

10 it be possible to establish a link between the two.

11 Q. All right. Well, let's just turn the page?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah, this is the last question on this document.



16 Q. Page 162 of the English, B/C/S 141. Sixth bullet point in the

17 English. "By taking Kamenica, Cerska, Glogova, the region of Osmace

18 village and Jadar, the Drina Corps has considerably expanded the free

19 territory and will shortly have achieved the strategic task assigned to

20 it by the Supreme Command while at the same time providing protection for

21 the Serbian people." Can you read that?

22 A. I can't read it, but I believe that what you have read is

23 correct. I really can't find it on the screen, but, no, I've found it

24 now, but I don't have any reason to doubt what you have just read out.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. If you break this up a bit we saw strategic

Page 21671

1 four, directive 4 earlier, talking about these areas. This paragraph,

2 the plain meaning, sitting in carrying out these military actions the

3 Drina Corps as achieved a strategic task assigned to it by the Supreme

4 Command. In other words relating to your last answer this does reflect

5 assignment by the Supreme Command to the military to complete and achieve

6 this strategic task, correct?

7 A. I can't agree with you, I'm sorry.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, yes, Madam Fauveau, please?

9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said on

10 page 28 that the -- there were -- there are some things on which he

11 cannot make any comments, he is not a military man. So with regards to

12 the comments made by my colleague, Mr. Zivanovic, in B/C/S we have two

13 very different words, strategic words, let's say, when we say strategic

14 tasks and strategic objectives are two very different words and terms. I

15 would like to ask the Prosecutor to put the following question to the

16 witness to ask him if he's ever seen that document and if he can, in

17 fact, make any comments on military documents. Does he believe that he

18 knows enough military terminology to make comments on purely military

19 terminology sentences?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Those are two different issues. Actually, looking

21 at the question and more particularly to his answer, I can't agree with

22 you, "I am sorry," my next step would be to ask the witness whether he

23 wants to explain why he doesn't agree with the proposition made to him by

24 the Prosecution or whether he wishes to stop where he left his answer.

25 And then if you want to ask further questions, you can ask further

Page 21672

1 questions. But it's perfectly legitimate question.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krajisnik, do you wish to explain why you don't

4 agree with Mr. Nicholls or do you wish to -- Mr. Nicholls to pass on to

5 his next question?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat the question?

7 There are several questions involved and when I hear all of them again, I

8 will gladly answer them.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I can read it out to you. Mr. Nicholls

10 was referring you to a part of this document, bulleted number -- bullet

11 paragraph 6, and he says, if you break this up we saw strategic 4,

12 directive 4, earlier talking about these areas, that is Glogova and

13 Cerska, Kamenica and the region of Osmace village and the other. And

14 then he continues, "This paragraph, the plain meaning, sitting in --

15 carrying out these -- seeking and carrying out these military actions,

16 the Drina Corps has achieved a strategic task assigned to it by the

17 Supreme Command." In other words relating to your last answer, does this

18 reflect an assignment by the Supreme Command to the military to complete

19 and achieve this strategic task, namely directive number 4 or strategic

20 4?

21 In other words, the question is what you read in this document,

22 does it amount to a statement that the military was doing nothing else

23 but putting into execution the strategic goal that was fixed by the

24 political establishment and as communicated to the military for their

25 implementation? This is basically the question. If you wish to answer

Page 21673

1 it, answer it. If you wish Mr. Nicholls to go -- move forward to the

2 next question, we'll do so.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the fourth objective was

4 drafted, I explained what we meant and how strategic goals could be

5 achieved by an exchange of territories and special ties with Serbia.

6 Because this was provided for by the agreement that we had reached as

7 part of the Cutileiro Plan. I said that everything that happened later

8 on was without any orders. It was never meant for any of these to be

9 achieved by military means. This was not a military plan.

10 On the 9th of June, representatives of the military were present

11 and it was said publish the strategic goals, publish the maps and all

12 that to the international community. If this had been a military

13 objective we would not have sent any of that to the international

14 community, we would have rather said okay let's hide all that, let's

15 cover all this up, so the six strategic objectives were not the basis of

16 any further operations. Whether the Supreme Commander at the time,

17 Mr. Karadzic, did issue any orders to deal with the problems aside from

18 anything else, if this is what transpires from this document, you should

19 ask the military what is meant by that. That's my explanation. And

20 that's why I believe that this cannot be in connection with the six

21 strategic goals, and I also believe that there was no specific order ever

22 issued to do things in the way described herein.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, let's move on, please, Mr. Nicholls.


25 Q. I'd like to now move to 3346. This is minutes and audio

Page 21674

1 recording of the 24th session of the National Assembly of Republika

2 Srpska, 8th of January 1993. This was held in Bijeljina, if you're

3 interested in that. And I want to look at the English page 7, B/C/S, I

4 believe, page 5. It's number 10 is the section I'm looking for. And

5 this is a list of conclusions adopted at this assembly session.

6 And can we scroll down a little bit more? Could we go to the

7 next page, please, first, actually, of the B/C/S? Okay. Scroll down to

8 the signature and stamp.

9 That's your name and signature at the bottom of the page,

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, my name and my signature and the assembly stamp.

12 Q. Okay. Previous page, please. Go back to item 10.

13 "The assembly has adopted the stance that the Muslims are an

14 artificial communist creation. And because of that, they are not

15 recognised as a people. The Muslims, in fact, are a religious sect of

16 Turkish orientation."

17 That conclusion was adopted at that session, correct? And we

18 will talk about the session in a minute and you'll be able to explain

19 anything you want. The question now is this was adopted, correct?

20 A. Yes. That's how it reads.

21 Q. Thank you. 3317, please. Minutes and tape recording of the same

22 session, 24th session, page 94 of the English, 64 of the B/C/S. I'll

23 wait for that to come up. 64 of the B/C/S. And we have a discussion on

24 this conclusion, and it's hard for me to tell where it starts in the

25 B/C/S. There is a portion that says, "What is it, Vjestica? All right.

Page 21675

1 Is there anything else unclear here? Can we adopt these conclusions"?

2 And then Mr. Vojo Kupresanin speaks. I won't read all this out because

3 it's quite a lot of irrelevant text over the next few pages. But

4 Mr. Kupresanin proposes something. He says:

5 "We stumbled over some ideas several times in the past.

6 Gentlemen, is this Muslim nation a nation at all?"

7 That's on page 94 of the English. Continuing further in the

8 paragraph, he says:

9 "And yet Bosnia isn't Serb but Muslim of the non-existent nation.

10 Are these not Serb stupidities again. If we make this mistake now, we

11 make an elementary mistake like in primary school. I propose that we

12 deny the Muslims as a nation on the next session of the assembly, no

13 European country or nation in the world would recognise them as a nation

14 and we should take Bosnia maximally. I just wanted to say as much at the

15 end."

16 And then you reply:

17 "I think Mr. Kupresanin is right. I was wrong when I once said

18 don't put them together with us. Because if you push them together with

19 us, we don't know what to do with them. I think this should be corrected

20 a little. We should really take a stand concerning whether the Muslims

21 are a nation. Here we had one suggestion that we say they are a Muslim

22 sect of Turkish orientation because it would then create a discord in the

23 Muslim world, namely Saudi Arabia and some other Muslim countries believe

24 that the Turks are fake Muslims who eat and drink like the others. It's

25 known that they are not so religious."

Page 21676

1 This is continuing on the next two pages, I'm sorry, page 95 of

2 the English, 65 of the B/C/S. Then you say:

3 "Hey, Vojo, you were right and I wasn't." This is still on page

4 95 of the English. "Let us say a religious group of Turkish orientation.

5 That would be very important to say. Because they are not from any

6 Muslim world but the Muslims of Turkish orientation which is different

7 from the real Muslims." Now, I'm not going to read all this. Skip to

8 page 96 of the English, 66 of the B/C/S. And you say, coming to the

9 vote:

10 "Shall we now take the Muslims out of Serbism forever? All

11 right, gentlemen, can we now make up our mind and take a position that

12 the Muslims are a nation of the communist creation? We do not accept

13 this artificial nation, we believe the Muslims are an sect, a group or a

14 party of Turkish provenance." Then it's put to a vote.

15 You said in your trial you regretted these statements. Can you

16 tell me what you meant by, "Shall we now take the Muslims out of Serbism

17 forever" where you put this to a vote?

18 A. Firstly, I have to answer by way of an explanation. On the

19 agenda of the assembly session, you can also find the Vance-Owen Plan and

20 the discussion was about territories. And it wasn't discussed whether

21 the Muslims were a nation or not. And there were some people who were

22 completely out of control and they mined the entire negotiating

23 procedure. They posed the question of whether Muslims should get

24 anything, any of the territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina. We came to a dead

25 end and as you can see here, I was trying to explain that nations defined

Page 21677

1 themselves as such. When we were about to vote on the Vance-Owen Plan

2 and the problems therein, I just said, "You were right, I wasn't," to

3 calm him down. The assembly does not have the right to decide whether a

4 people are a nation or not. And I just wanted to say, "Okay, let them be

5 an sect. Let's move on." Everything I said here, well, there was either

6 at the assembly session or at the club of representatives. Now that

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina is being carved up, deputies were discontented and

8 they all wanted to see their small chunks of territory to be on the map.

9 The discussion was about the map and then someone came one this

10 question of whether Muslims were a people or nation or not. Up until the

11 60s of the last century, the Muslims were not defined as a nation. In

12 the communist times there was a decree proclaiming them a nation. They

13 were one of the parties in the negotiations in Bosnia-Herzegovina. As

14 for the mention of Saudi Arabia and others, this was all coming from the

15 media, the goal was to stop with this type of discussion and to continue

16 discussing the Vance-Owen Plan.

17 When I said that I was ashamed, I was at the time when the Muslim

18 side occupied my village. That's when I called them Turks, and it's not

19 a word I ever use in my vocabulary otherwise. That's how much I can

20 recall. Either I or most of the deputies, we never said that Muslims

21 were not a nation. However, a number of the deputies wanted them to be

22 proclaimed as Serbs again because before 1960s, they were stating that

23 they were Croats or Serbs which was nonsensical, really. Now, in 1992,

24 somebody had the brilliant idea to say they were no longer Muslims. It

25 was a communist creation let us bring them back to the Serbian body, to

Page 21678

1 the body of the Serbian people. As for Serbia not being able to be

2 transformed and to say that the separate factor, the separate side of

3 Muslims existed, this is not something we tried to deny. And the goal of

4 the entire discussion was not such. You can see for yourself that in the

5 agenda, there is the Vance-Owen Plan.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we move on and bring this to an end,

7 Mr. Nicholls?

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

9 Q. I'd like to play a video now, it's a video you're familiar with

10 of course, sir. It's dated 21st of August 1994. It's 65 ter number

11 3318. And it's a large rally in Banja Luka. And before we turn that on,

12 I've watched the video, I've been to Banja Luka, not a long time. This

13 is by the Boska department store, correct? We can wait until we turn it

14 on but I'd like you to confirm that. I'm sorry, it's 3344 is the video,

15 3318 is the transcript. We can start playing the video at -- it's at 31

16 minutes 4 seconds:

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay, there should be sound. I'm not getting any.

19 Q. Just my question, this is in front of the Boska department store

20 in Banja Luka, correct, in that big square?

21 A. Yes, you are correct.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. If we can play?

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, we may need -- let's keep playing it

25 a little and see if the sound comes up.

Page 21679

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. I apologise, Your Honour, if we could

3 stop here, 3133, when we checked it before and the sound was working.

4 I'm going to have to get a technician to take a look at it. We are

5 playing it out of sanction.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think you can fix this or it's going to keep

7 us waiting?

8 MR. NICHOLLS: I frankly have no idea, Your Honour. We need a

9 technician to come, I think. I am --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I am informed that the technician is on his way

11 already.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: If it's the Court's pleasure, I'm almost done with

13 my cross, if we could take a break for ten minutes or we could wait in

14 the courtroom, whichever Your Honours could prefer.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: He's on his way. Yesterday he sorted a similar

16 problem in a jiffy. In a minute it was solved, so I would suggest that

17 we wait for him.

18 [Videotape played]


20 Q. Okay. We can stop for a second. Before the sound was working it

21 panned across some of the people present.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, for the record we stopped at 32.012.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

24 Q. Do you agree with me that some of the persons presents on the

25 stage were Biljana Plavsic, yourself, Radovan Karadzic, Vojo Kupresanin,

Page 21680

1 Predrag Radic and Radoslav Brdjanin?

2 A. Yes. I saw Radic, Karadzic, Plavsic, myself. I don't know

3 whether Brdjanin was there, but I suppose so.

4 Q. Okay. Well, we'll see. If we could continue now to counter

5 48.42? Start playing there.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay we stop at 49.11.7.

8 Q. That's Vojo Kupresanin who we have seen in some of the assembly

9 session minutes, correct? I need to you answer?

10 A. Yes. Mr. Kupresanin.

11 Q. Okay. We are not going to watch all of this. Let's go to 51.21,

12 please. We can start there that's fine, at 51.17 or .18.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop at 53.27.

15 Q. The date of this rally, 21st of August 1994, this is after the

16 Ferhadija mosque in Banja Luka had been blown up, correct?

17 A. This rally was held on the occasion of the plebiscite concerning

18 the contact plan group. As for the mosque being blown up or not, I

19 really don't know. This had to do with the plebiscite which was

20 subsequently organised.

21 Q. Okay. Maybe you didn't understand me, I'm not saying the rally

22 is about the mosque being blown up, I'm just trying to get the time and

23 some context. This is after that UNESCO protected monument, that mosque,

24 had been destroyed in Banja Luka, correct? It was no longer standing at

25 the time of this rally?

Page 21681

1 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already told you he doesn't know,

2 Mr. Nicholls.


4 Q. I'm sorry, you don't know when the mosque was blown up?

5 A. I don't. I don't know now, and I didn't know then.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay, we can continue playing then at 53.27.7.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop there, 54.58. Move on to you. That's at

9 1.10.07 or so. Maybe move back a little bit on the counter. Okay 1.10

10 exactly, can play.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop. All right. We haven't played the whole

13 video but --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We have stopped at 1 hour ten minutes 36.5 seconds.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. You've heard Vojo Kupresanin again saying that there is no such

17 thing as a Muslim nation, heard Brdjanin's infamous speech about wiping

18 the non-Christian filth from the shoes of the Serbian people and now

19 you've characterised these as wonderful words, right?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is a misstatement. He didn't mention

22 Mr. Kupresanin but the prior speakers. And he didn't emphasise the words

23 of Mr. Kupresanin.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Everyone is included, no one is excluded, in other

25 words?

Page 21682

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, really for the record some of these

2 objections are just simply improper.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Put your question, please.


5 Q. You remember the question or do you want me to ask it again? You

6 said, "Dear brothers and sisters, my dear people on the Krajina on both

7 sides of the Una, having heard these wonderful words by my predecessors,

8 I feel great satisfaction." And continue.

9 You're calling Brdjanin's speech and Kupresanin's speech those

10 wonderful words, aren't you?

11 A. Firstly this speech of mine was a well-balanced approach which

12 deserves only the highest grades. As a politician first I praised the

13 entire situation and then I responded to Kupresanin and Brdjanin. During

14 my speech, as you can see later, you can see that I said that no one has

15 the right to say that Muslims are Serbs, and I said clearly that we don't

16 hate neither Muslims nor Croats. You have it all on the footage. This

17 was a pre-election rally at which I stood against such war mongering

18 statements and I said, let them live and we should do our own. If one

19 goes into this in detail, I actually denied what they said and I thought

20 it would be crazy to keep the discussion at the level the two of them had

21 used.

22 Q. Okay. Well, I'm almost done here but then this is you taking a

23 stand against the extremists, is that what you're saying?

24 A. Yes. I said we don't hate Muslims and Croats.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, yes, Madam Fauveau?

Page 21683

1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would it be possible

2 to see the entire video?

3 MR. NICHOLLS: My friends can do anything they want on redirect.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move. I think it will be a waste of time in

5 any case, so let's move on, please.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: 120 -- I'm sorry.

7 JUDGE KWON: Whether he finished his answer.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You're 100 per cent right, Judge Kwon, he hadn't

9 finished.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was, it was put to you whether you

12 were actually taking a stand against the extremists, whether that's what

13 you were maintaining, and you said, "Yes, I said we don't hate Muslims,

14 and Croats." Could you continue from there, please, Mr. Krajisnik?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I also said that what we were

16 asking for ourselves was what was discussed was a peace plan, and I also

17 said that we wished the same for the other side. It was very daring to

18 say in such a heated atmosphere and the time of war. You can find this

19 in the transcript. You can find it on the footage. I also said, "Those

20 who do not wish to be Serbian," and I referred to Mr. Kupresanin's

21 speech, I tried to say something in jest and I said, "Well, if someone

22 doesn't want to be Serbian, let us not drive them away." I denied their

23 statements, Your Honour. I explained this at my trial and I can explain

24 it to you now as to why I approached things the way I did. There were

25 100.000 people there.

Page 21684

1 MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated]

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Let's play the section you might be referring to,

4 1.22.29.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we have the transcript as

6 well? Maybe that way I can follow.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. NICHOLLS: We can stop. It's at

9 Q. Is that the section you were talking about where you respond to

10 Mr. Kupresanin and make a joke?

11 A. No it would be good to see the part in which I said and explained

12 everything. Taking things out of the context is wrong. Please find that

13 portion in which we say we don't hate them and that we were in favour of

14 a solution. I explained it all.

15 Q. Okay. What did you mean by "we simply want to separate because

16 we can't live together and it would take a war to force us to live

17 together again"?

18 A. My position throughout the negotiations was to be given our own

19 constituent unit that we had been promised. Under that I meant

20 separation. They kept wanting to have a unified, unitary Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina where the majority would rule over us. That was the gist of

22 my speech. Please see the agenda. It includes the plan to recognise

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the plan which includes constituent units.

24 The only problem was what was to be part and parcel of those constituent

25 units. That is what I was talking about. There was no mention of

Page 21685

1 splitting Bosnia-Herzegovina up but, rather, how it was to be

2 transformed, and the other side was against it. That was the essence.

3 Q. Then finally, just go to the end of your speech, 1.25.33.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay, we can stop there before Karadzic speaks.

6 Q. That's the end of your speech. This grand hope that it will all

7 be Serbia, right? In the end.

8 A. It was a matter of rhetoric, very dear to Serbs. However, it was

9 there for political reasons alone. I don't know why you didn't show the

10 excerpt I asked you to so as to put things in the context, to see what

11 the essence was. When you cut it up like this, you're trying to put

12 together a picture which does not tally with what I said.

13 Q. The whole video and the whole transcript is going into evidence.

14 I will move to put it all into evidence. I have no further questions for

15 you now?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Is there redirect? You intimated

17 that there would be.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, please.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

21 Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to be asking you some

23 questions that remain unresolved after the Prosecutor's examination. Let

24 me start with first things first. And the first thing was the statement

25 about the principles that he showed to you and he also showed you the

Page 21686

1 text that was drafted in Sarajevo on the 18th of March 1992. Can we

2 please look at the text together? This is 1D1156.

3 In answering the Prosecutor's question, you said that after this,

4 there was another meeting in Lisbon, also as part of the talks under the

5 auspices of Mr. Cutileiro. Could you please tell me whether there were

6 any changes with regard to the principles that were adopted on the 18th

7 of March 1992, that I showed to you? And that were valid up to the

8 meeting in Lisbon which took place, I believe, at the beginning of May

9 1992? Were there any major changes to the principle?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I just want to note that this is

12 really beyond the scope of my cross on the map which I said at the

13 beginning was limited to the very technical issue of putting the missing

14 page back into the plan and making it clear that the other map had not

15 been attached to the 18th of March. That's it. So I did not go into any

16 discussion from me about these maps or changes in between negotiations.

17 I just put that on the record.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You wish it reply to that, Mr. Zivanovic?

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Mr. Nicholls insisted on the date and he

20 reiterated -- said that it was -- it was the date 18 March 1992 in the

21 principles and the witness testified in chief.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need this because the witness already

23 testified there were two maps, one in March which is the one he was shown

24 this morning and then there was another one later on in May on which they

25 based the map that you showed the witness yesterday.

Page 21687

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, but he testified that one map was the

2 factual findings of the -- Mr. Darvin as far as I understand, and it was

3 not the map created as the base for the negotiation, but the other map

4 was the proposal, official proposal of the European Union.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We don't agree with you, Mr. Nicholls.

7 Mr. Krajisnik, could you answer the question from Mr. Zivanovic? If

8 necessary he will repeat it.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay, let me repeat.

10 Q. In a nutshell, yesterday I showed you this statement about the

11 principles that you had an occasion to see and you have spoken about it

12 again today. And Mr. Nicholls told you that the date is 18 March 1992.

13 That's when the statement on the principles was drafted. You've said

14 that after the meeting that was held on the 18th of March 1992 in

15 Sarajevo there was another meeting in Lisbon, sometime in May 1992,

16 immediately before the assembly session that we discussed. My question

17 is this: Was this statement on the principles changed before the meeting

18 in Lisbon was held in May 1992? Were there any major changes to this

19 statement?

20 A. Let me try and help you but let me go back to the time preceding

21 March 1992. 22nd of February was the first version of the principles at

22 the Lisbon principles providing the key as to how to establish

23 constituent units and it was said then that it should be done based on

24 the census of 1971, 1981 and 1991. The map was drafted on the 18th of

25 March, showing provisionally the majority population makeup and we said

Page 21688

1 on that day that if we took whole municipalities into account, that would

2 be a mistake. It was said then that even the municipality borders could

3 be altered. We depicted a large area of Ozren with five municipalities

4 sharing the area with 100.000 Serbs in each of the municipalities but

5 they were still minorities. But that's why the May 1992 map was subject

6 to some changes and then smaller territorial units, local communes,

7 villages and municipalities were taken into account, although nothing

8 came out of this. My answer would be this: The principles were not

9 altered; however, if the -- the second map shows that the second element

10 was taken into account because it shows that the principles were not

11 based on the whole municipalities but on smaller units such as villages

12 and local communes.

13 Q. [Microphone not activated]

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.

16 Q. The map that I showed you yesterday, can we please see it once

17 again in order to avoid any confusion? The exhibit number is 1D1160. Is

18 this the map that was drafted in Lisbon in May 1992?

19 A. Yes. This is the map.

20 Q. You said that there was a document about the corridor. You said

21 that in reply to the Prosecutor's question, and this was the corridor

22 that had been agreed with the Croats. Can you please explain what kind

23 of corridor are we talking about and what kind of an agreement had been

24 reached with the Croats?

25 A. Maybe you should give me a pointer so I could point things for

Page 21689

1 you on the map that is before us, on the screen.


3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it. I hope that you will --


5 Q. Maybe we should place the map on the ELMO and you can point on

6 the ELMO?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: He can mark it on the monitor.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And, if necessary, we can zoom in a little bit

10 more.


12 Q. [Interpretation] Okay. Can you now explain the nature of that

13 corridor?

14 A. That corridor would be much easier to show on the ethnic map in

15 various colours, but I'll try and see what I can do here. The Serbian

16 side was supposed to establish a link between these two areas, Semberija

17 and the area around Doboj. That was our goal. We wanted to establish a

18 link between the two.

19 Q. Can you please draw a line?

20 A. What I'm going to draw shows how important it was to establish a

21 link between the two. [Marks]. And the Croatian side on the other side

22 was interested in this part here, because they wanted to link up their

23 own areas, and this is actually the Croatian side here. So we negotiated

24 with the Croatian side because this was a Croatian area and we wanted to

25 create a bypass of sorts, and that was our conversation with the Muslims,

Page 21690

1 actually, the Croatian side. It would be a bit different on the ethnic

2 map and it would really be good to have that map because it would show

3 better that the Croatian ethnic areas could have been used in order to

4 achieve an exchange of territories.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: We have that in e-court, I just offer it to my

6 friend if he wishes to --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, let's finish with this one first because we

8 can't have two maps at the same time.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, here we see a text in the Serbian language, in the

11 Cyrillic script. Could you just briefly explain the meaning of these

12 areas? For example the first one marked with horizontal lines?

13 A. The horizontal lines depict the Serbian areas. The white areas

14 are Muslim areas. And black areas although it was blue originally, those

15 are Croatian areas. And Sarajevo is a separate area that I have

16 forgotten to mention. We should have a separate piece of paper depicting

17 Sarajevo as an extra territorial area under the protectorate of the

18 United Nations and here you can see a separate part which is Pale and

19 this here should have been split between two or three entities once the

20 UN administration was discontinued.

21 Q. Could you please mark that corridor that was supposed to connect

22 Semberija with the area around Doboj?

23 A. Also it would be good to do it on the other map. However, we

24 believe that this is how it should look. [Marks]. This is Herzegovina,

25 Romanija.

Page 21691

1 Q. I apologise. I don't think you understood me. I said a corridor

2 between Semberija and Doboj?

3 A. This is the road, and it was up to the further negotiations as to

4 what the route of the corridor would have been after the exchange of

5 territories. These are the areas that should have been corrected with

6 the corridor. There are a lot of Serbian territories here that would

7 have been ceded in order to have the corridor. You can see this on the

8 other blue and red map.

9 Q. I believe that we have now gone beyond the scope of my question.

10 I was only talking about the corridor that had been agreed with the

11 Croatian side that you yourself mentioned, and I don't think that this is

12 the corridor that you drew last.

13 A. No. It is not. This is the corridor that you're talking about

14 that should have connected these two areas.

15 Q. Can you please just mark these two areas that were discussed with

16 the Croatian side and the corridor that was supposed to connects them?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You are overlapping.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, sorry.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the Croatian side we had

20 agreed the principles, we said that we wanted to connect these two areas

21 of ours. And we said that we would give our territories in Posavina at

22 their disposal and vice versa, and they said we are interested in

23 obtaining several territories in the area of Kupres which I marked here

24 but we did not draw any corridors. We did not reach any agreements. We

25 just agreed on the principles that would be subject to further

Page 21692

1 negotiations within the Cutileiro Plan.

2 Q. You have drawn this but now I'm asking you to put a number next

3 to the area that was supposed to be a corridor between Semberija and

4 Doboj that had been agreed with the Croats.

5 A. Mr. Zivanovic, I drew up an area, and this is the -- another

6 area. These two areas should have been connected, but the modalities

7 should have been subject to further negotiations. This is just the

8 direction. But this is not a corridor. We should have achieved

9 something through the exchange of territories that would have been

10 subject to further negotiations, and I told you what they were interested

11 in.

12 Q. Can you please mark by number 3 all the territories that they,

13 the other side, was interested in?

14 A. Here you have it. [Marks].

15 Q. And can you put number 4 next to the part of Sarajevo that you

16 showed on the map?

17 A. This is the part of Sarajevo. [Marks]. That should have been

18 under the protectorate of the United Nations or under the United Nations

19 administration.

20 Q. And finally the corridor that I didn't ask you about that you

21 still drew, can you please mark it by number 5?

22 A. This is the area that should have been linked up. This is it.

23 [Marks].

24 Q. I apologise. I used the term corridor. Actually this should

25 have been an area through which a corridor would have passed.

Page 21693

1 A. Yes. The exact route was not agreed. It was to be subject of

2 further negotiations.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Can we now please mark, but I don't know what

4 number I should use. What is the next number? We are still talking

5 about 1D1160. Maybe we should mark it as 1D1169. I don't think we have

6 that number on our list yet.

7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Are we finished with this map?

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Then he needs to put the date and signature. Can

11 you help him, Madam Usher, please? He needs to put the date and his

12 signature.


14 Q. Yes, please.

15 A. [Marks]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And we can save this document. Earlier

17 on, before you proceed, Mr. Zivanovic, earlier on, Mr. Nicholls offered

18 the other map.


20 JUDGE AGIUS: And there was an indication that Mr. Krajisnik was

21 also interested in making marks, marking, the other map too. If you wish

22 to proceed that way, we can have the other map brought up on e-court and

23 you can proceed accordingly.

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. I would ask Mr. Nicholls to provide this

25 map to Mr. Krajisnik.

Page 21694

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: It's 3356.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need to say that that is not the

4 map. This is the Prosecutor's map. It is not the ethnic map. I have it

5 with me. I can show it to you, and I believe you have it too.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. The ethnic map, you said?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could we please try going with 1149, 1D1149? I think it's on our

10 list. Is this the map?

11 A. No.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: If I can just explain what that is. That's a

13 creation in the OTP with the municipalities on it broken up by ethnicity

14 which is the same as the one attached to the statement of principles, the

15 one I put in today. So it's the map which was introduced today that was

16 attached to the 18 March principles which the witness said was based on

17 the census and we've just put it in colour and put the municipality lines

18 on it clearer.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Is this the map, Mr. Krajisnik?

21 A. Yes. It is a map that was used at my trial, and I marked it. I

22 can explain what it was about. The basis of what we are discussing now

23 is this map.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I don't know about this map. It

Page 21695

1 wasn't used in the direct, it wasn't -- it's not just the ethnic census

2 map of 1991. It's some marked-up map from the trial and that should have

3 been introduced in direct. What I've provided or there is the one

4 attached to the 18 March but I think we are now getting into a way beyond

5 the scope of cross.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can move to your next. It's not going

7 to change anything from what the witness has already stated. He's

8 indicated where the corridor was more or less, and if you insist I think

9 we can proceed but I don't see the utility of it.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, Mr. Krajisnik, do you wish to give us

12 further information, different, or in addition to what you have already,

13 based on the map that you see in front of you? Do you consider it

14 necessary or not necessary?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that this was

16 a cadastre map with even the smallest territorial units drawn in. It is

17 different from the municipal map. You can see the rural part which to a

18 large extent was held by the Serbs. The blue is the Serbs. And here you

19 can see how corridors can be achieved through an exchange of territory.

20 And you can see why the map of the second or the 3rd of May was the way

21 it was. It was based on this map.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we move on?

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would like to ask Mr. Krajisnik to clarify

24 something.

25 Q. Was this map shown to you during his testimony at his trial?

Page 21696

1 A. I drew up this map.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already confirmed that.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have further questions and another issue.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to enter this map in the records or --

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Not this map, the previous one.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then let's move to your next question.

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we make a break?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course. We'll have a 25-minute break now.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, I see that the family keeps

12 increasing, changing.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon. As you

14 know, this is Mr. Predrag Nikolic, who is our legal consultant and we

15 hope his status will change from my understanding to something different

16 by Wednesday, and he's here for primarily the next witness and we thank

17 you for acknowledging him.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good afternoon to you, Mr. Nikolic

19 and welcome.

20 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I used to be an

21 investigator with this team, and I have been an investigator since

22 October last year. It seems that I will take on a different role soon.

23 I would like to thank the Court for approving that change.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. I haven't approved anything as

25 yet. But maybe those are pleasures yet to come.

Page 21697

1 So Mr. Zivanovic?

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you were asked by the Prosecutor concerning a

4 document, it's 3254. Could we please have it brought back on the screen?

5 He put to you a part of the document, which reads that no personal or

6 collective security could be guaranteed to the remaining Muslim

7 population, and it includes the order that he read out to you. I will

8 not repeat it again. But I wanted to ask you something about a

9 particular part of the order. And that is something that the Prosecutor

10 did not read out to you or I may have failed to notice it.

11 It reads, "Given the growing complexity of the political

12 situation and direct threats on the parts of Mr. Alija Izetbegovic to the

13 Serb territorial forces, concerning further -- a further increase of

14 war-related activities, we cannot guarantee personal or collective safety

15 to the remaining Muslim population."

16 Do you know personally or through some other contacts or

17 information that there were some parts, some threats, issued by

18 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic directed at the Serb territorial forces?

19 A. It says here the growing complexity of the political situation.

20 I have to be honest and say that I don't know what Mr. Klickovic had in

21 mind. Throughout the war, I believe the situation was complex.

22 Therefore, I could only speculate. I cannot really recall what was

23 taking place at the time, if anything.

24 Q. This document is from May 1992. Are you familiar with or did you

25 hear about the Muslim forces at the time carrying visible symbols,

Page 21698

1 insignia or anything of the sort which could tell them apart as an army,

2 as soldiers, as opposed to civilians? Did they have uniforms?

3 A. According to the modest knowledge I possess, what was present on

4 all three sides is that at the beginning, before the armed forces were

5 formed, and perhaps even later, the armed part of the population on all

6 three sides wore civilian clothes. They were all defending their own

7 homes. Perhaps it was prevalent on the Muslim side because they did not

8 have any uniforms. The Croatian side got some from Croatia, the Serbs

9 had some uniforms because of the mobilisation that had been carried out,

10 whereas the Muslims did not have uniforms, as far as I can recall.

11 Q. Another thing concerning this: Clarify for us perhaps, who was

12 Mr. Gojko Klickovic at the time, since he was mentioned by the

13 Prosecutor?

14 A. Gojko Klickovic was a local leader. I wasn't aware of that at

15 the time. He may have been president of the Executive Board or of the

16 Serbian Assembly or perhaps both. I knew what his position was during my

17 trial, but I cannot recall it now. He was a local leader from the

18 civilian authorities. This illustrates that his approach was completely

19 incorrect. He wasn't a part of the military. Therefore he couldn't

20 issue orders. But people were trying to deal with the situation as best

21 they could.

22 Q. Thank you. I would move on to another document shown to you by

23 the Prosecutor, which is 3258.

24 You said that there were some things in this document that were

25 illogical, starting with the header of the document, where it is stated

Page 21699

1 that it concerns the Birac Brigade command, and ending with the stamp at

2 the bottom. Please clarify what the inconsistencies are as regards this

3 document.

4 A. Until the 19th of May, as far as I recall, in the area of Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina, the JNA was present there. Before that, on the 12th of

6 May, the VRS was formed or it was at the time called the army of the Serb

7 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. At that time, this person was a major.

8 He holds a different rank nowadays. At that time, he was probably still

9 with the JNA. Since the JNA left on the 19th, and since the unit

10 mentioned was not formed, he relied on the Birac region, and he called

11 his office the Serbian army brigade command of Birac and further down we

12 have the military post of the JNA which at the time was no longer its

13 designator. He was trying to find his way at the time, and he probably

14 did not receive any instructions from his staff. Therefore, he composed

15 a header the way he did. This is what I can tell you as a lay person.

16 However, an expert on the matter could put it more clearly to you.

17 Q. Please have a look at the stamp of the document. You mentioned

18 the stamp. Could you please repeat?

19 A. The stamp strikes me as a bit odd. In Cyrillic letters it says

20 the military post of Sekovic. Usually the former JNA stamps as far as I

21 know were not in the Cyrillic script. The VRS was not organised in terms

22 of military posts but units. That's another odd thing. This is a

23 strange mixture and you have generals and other officers sitting here who

24 can explain it. This is what I can see and it strikes me as improper.

25 As to what it is exactly, only an expert could say.

Page 21700

1 Q. Thank you. The next question I have for you concerns a person by

2 the name of Veljko Milankovic. The Prosecutor asked you about him. I

3 didn't quite understand you when you referred to him on that occasion.

4 Was he alive at the time?

5 A. He was dead by then. He had died. As far as I recall, I was

6 talking about the end of the war. It was a pre-election rally because

7 after the Dayton Accords, elections were underway, and I believe I talked

8 about him then. Everyone around me kept saying, this is a unit, these

9 people were heros, they had a memorial hall for them at which he was the

10 central figure. I knew nothing else about it. Once I came here, I

11 learned the rest. And the municipal representative confirmed the

12 Prosecutor's statement that he was a borderline case, as law was

13 concerned, but at the time I didn't know that. I only knew that he was a

14 hero to them and it was very important for them.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, Madam Fauveau, will you be putting

16 any questions to the witness or not?

17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] If my colleague does not cover that

18 particular topic, maybe not more than five minutes and if we end today

19 the hearing of the witness, I will not ask for the witness to be

20 recalled.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And I put that question to

22 Madam Fauveau precisely, Mr. Zivanovic, because I would like you to wind

23 up and conclude your redirect with the witness today.

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll do my best to do so.

25 Q. [Interpretation] I noticed that the very last part of your

Page 21701

1 sentence -- answer did not make it to -- into the transcript. I think

2 you said something along the lines that he was defending them and

3 therefore it was a hero to them. Did I hear you correctly?

4 A. Each municipality, in a way, had its own units or a unit, and

5 this is how they named themselves. One of the units of the 1st Krajina

6 Corps, because subsequently Mr. Milankovic was a part of the 1st Krajina

7 Corps with his unit, his unit was called the wolfs of Vucjak. Those who

8 participated in the armed defence of the Serbian people, not at Prnjavor

9 but in other areas were very proud of their own units, in particular of

10 this unit, in which many people had been killed. And Mr. Milankovic led

11 their operations until the time he was killed. Later on he was succeeded

12 by someone else, I don't know when, though. In that municipality they

13 heros. This is what they told me and that is how I referred to them at

14 the rally.

15 Q. Do you know how he was killed, was it in combat or in some other

16 circumstances?

17 A. I know he was wounded and that his wound got infected in Banja

18 Luka. I inquired because I wanted to learn of his fate. And I heard

19 that he died of blood poisoning from the wound, in Banja Luka.

20 Q. Among other things, during examination-in-chief, you said that 90

21 per cent of his men lost their lives. If I understood properly.

22 A. As far as I can remember, that was the percentage. Or maybe if

23 not that percentage, I know that the percentage was very high of those

24 who were killed in that unit. It may not be 90 per cent, but I know that

25 a large number of the members of that unit died during the war.

Page 21702

1 Q. Now that you've mentioned the circumstances under which

2 Mr. Milankovic died, you have also spoken about a corridor that was

3 opened by the military leading towards Banja Luka and that this corridor

4 was used to deliver humanitarian aid, and you also mentioned 12 babies.

5 Could you please be more precise and tell us what this was all about, if

6 you know?

7 A. As far as I know, and my knowledge is modest, but still

8 sufficient for this testimony, I know that there had been political

9 negotiations with UNHCR and the International Red Cross as well as with

10 the representatives of UNPROFOR in order to allow for the humanitarian

11 aid to reach Banja Luka because that area was cut off. I know that there

12 were a lot of combinations on the table but none of them came to fruition

13 and then a terrible piece of news appeared in the newspapers, according

14 to which because of the lack of oxygen, some 12 new-born babies died, and

15 this was published in the newspapers, a monument was subsequently erected

16 for them. And this broke the camel's back in the political negotiations.

17 That was the last straw. I was not aware of all the details, but I know

18 that there were problems with the humanitarian aid and that these babies

19 died as a result of the lack of oxygen in Banja Luka.

20 Q. Just one more thing, if you know. Do you know where this road to

21 Banja Luka was cut off? Where was it where the humanitarian aid was

22 blocked? In which part of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. In the part where Semberija was cut off from Doboj. This is

24 where there was no corridor, and this is where you could not go through.

25 For a while there were air drops which were then discontinued, so the

Page 21703

1 whole area of Republika Srpska was cut off. We were also cut off and

2 there were no communications, and people were deprived of the most bare

3 necessities. That was my information at the time. That was how it was

4 presented to general public and to the international community.

5 Q. If you remember the map that you marked during the last session,

6 would that be the part that you marked with numbers 1 and 2?

7 A. Yes, 1 is Semberija and 2 Strebava [phoen] is around Doboj or

8 maybe the other way around but in any case, the answer is yes.

9 Q. One more thing with this regard. At the time, under the

10 circumstances, did the army of Republika Srpska undertake an operation

11 and connected the two territories that had been cut off from each other?

12 A. I must say, honestly, that piece of news was published one day

13 saying that the army had broken through the corridor and connected the

14 two and that took place around the 26th or 28th of June, as far as I can

15 remember. I may be mistaken, but I believe that it was around the time

16 that the situation was resolved because that particular day was the

17 holiday of our army, that's the St. Vitus day popularly known among the

18 people.

19 Q. I would like to move on. You've been shown a page from the

20 minutes or the record taken at the session of the National Assembly of

21 Republika Srpska, a reference is made to the cities which would be given

22 to Republika Srpska, that had had a majority Muslim population before.

23 In answering the Prosecutor's question, you said that at the same session

24 of the assembly, a reference was made to the cities and towns that the

25 Serbs had lost that would remain within the boundaries of the

Page 21704

1 Croatian-Muslim federation, and that had a Serb majority. Could you

2 please tell me, if you remember, which towns are these where the Serbs

3 constituted a majority and which according to the plan that was

4 considered at the assembly meeting would remain within the

5 Croatian-Muslim federation?

6 A. I can answer your question in principle. In the western part of

7 Republika Srpska, in our Krajina, there are historical ethnic areas which

8 according to that map fell into the possession of the federation, where

9 the Serbs were a majority. Just like was established by the Dayton

10 Accords. Maybe to illustrate the matter best, we lost Glamoc, Grahovo,

11 Petrovac and other towns according to the Dayton Accords, and in the

12 eastern part, we got Bratunac and others that Karadzic mentioned. This

13 was confirmed by the Dayton Accords and a similar situation was outlined

14 in the other agreement in a different form, and Karadzic spoke about the

15 agreement and he said that we could not allow that but at least we got

16 the other things; but in the local situation, it is not the same because

17 people say we don't want others, what others have, we want our own, but

18 it was a compromise that was achieved by the international community and

19 it was very difficult to reconcile local with the regional interests.

20 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor showed you a video clip with your

21 speech. I would kindly ask the Trial Chamber to play the same video clip

22 for the witness, from 1 hour 47 seconds. I would kindly ask the witness

23 to be shown the whole speech of his, which lasts 25 minutes.

24 The video clip is 3344 and the transcript is 3318, from the

25 Prosecutor's list of exhibits.

Page 21705

1 JUDGE AGIUS: According to my calculations, Mr. Zivanovic, if

2 this takes 25 minutes and we have already lost two minutes, there won't

3 be time for a single question after that.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: All right. All right, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So the option is that we show him the film, the

6 video, and then you proceed with the questions tomorrow or else, if you

7 have some specific part of the video in mind, we go straight to that part

8 and you will have ample time for your questions.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Unfortunately, I was not able to take the clips

10 because I saw this video just in presentation of the Prosecution

11 cross-examination.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why --

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What are we waiting for?

15 [Videotape played]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We can stop there, and you've got six minutes left.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And we hope that you will conclude in that time.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe so.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, then, Mr. Zivanovic.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, first of all I wanted to ask you this. Is this

23 your whole speech? Is that it?

24 A. Yes, that is that.

25 Q. I can see that in your speech, at one point you say that people

Page 21706

1 who are listening to you would vote in the referendum. What kind of

2 referendum are you talking about?

3 A. In 1993 and 1994, we had the so-called compromise maps and action

4 plan and in 1994, there was even a proposal tabled for a confederational

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina which was adopted by all, and the declarations were

6 signed and all of a sudden somebody put all that aside and tabled a

7 contact group plan which was a catastrophe and against our interests, and

8 that's why we organised a referendum in order for people to say whether

9 they were for or against those maps or not because we had been threatened

10 with air strikes if we did not accept that, and finally we ended up with

11 the Dayton Accords which was a true solid compromise after all.

12 Q. Can you please tell me roughly what was the result of that

13 referendum? Just roughly. I'm sure that you can't be sure of the exact

14 results.

15 A. In Republika Srpska, over 90 per cent of the people refused the

16 contact group maps and that's why we embarked on negotiations leading to

17 the Dayton Accords.

18 Q. Thank you. Let me move on to the last topic of my

19 re-examination. The Prosecutor touched upon the decision which was

20 issued in your case, and as I was reading that decision, I could see that

21 the Trial Chamber found you not guilty of genocide; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. The Trial Chamber also found you not guilty of being an

24 accomplice in genocide?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 21707

1 Q. I also wanted to ask you this: Do you know whether the

2 Prosecutor appealed against this portion of the sentence referring to

3 genocide?

4 A. No, they did not appeal that.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's it. I would like to thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Shall we call it a day,

7 Madam Fauveau?

8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will forgo now

9 because if I start now, I don't think I can finish.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

11 Mr. Krajisnik, we have finished here with your testimony. I will

12 make sure, first of all, you will be returned to the Detention Unit, and

13 I will make sure that the previous order on segregation, which was to

14 have effect for the duration of seven days, or the -- until the end of

15 your testimony, whichever came first, will be terminated. And I leave

16 that in your hands, Madam Registrar. You need to communicate with the

17 registrar. Thank you so much. We will reconvene tomorrow in the

18 afternoon at quarter past 2.00 with a new witness, all right? Thank you.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of June,

22 2008, at 2.15 p.m.