Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21869

†1†††††††††††††††††††††††††† Friday, June 6 2008

†2†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Open session]

†3†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [The accused entered court]

†4†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [The witness entered court]

†5†††††††††††††††††††††††††† --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

†6†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† All right.† Good morning, Madam Registrar and

†7†††† everybody, all the accused are here.† I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes,

†8†††† Mr. Bourgon, that's it.

†9†††††††††††† And Prosecution, it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer who are

10†††† present.† All right.

11†††††††††††† We can -- Mr. Thayer -- good morning to you, Mr. Lazic.

12†††††††††††††††††††††††††† WITNESS: MILENKO LAZIC [Resumed]

13†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Witness answered through interpreter]

14†††††† ††††††THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† And good day as well.

16†††††††††††† Mr. Thayer, good morning to you.† You may proceed and conclude

17†††† and we'll pick it up from there.

18†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Thank you, Mr. President.† Good morning to you and

19†††† Your Honours.† Good morning, everyone.

20†††††††††††††††††††††††††† Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]

21††††††† Q.†† Colonel, good morning.

22††††††† A.†† Good morning.

23††††††† Q.†† I just have one or two final questions for you.† The first

24†††† concerns a document which we looked at yesterday from the Drina Corps

25†††† command to the command of the Uzice Corps.† Do you remember that

Page 21870

†1†††† document?

†2††††††† A.†† No, I don't remember that document.† I mean, I remember from

†3†††† yesterday what I saw then, but otherwise from before in practice I didn't

†4†††† see it.

†5††††††† Q.†† Okay.† That's all I was asking about.† The Presiding Judge had a

†6†††† question about a document or an order number that was referred to in that

†7†††† document.† Do you remember that question from His Honour, sir?

†8††††††† A.†† Yes.

†9††††††† Q.†† Okay.† Last night I located that document.† If we could just show

10†††† it on e-court and I just wanted to follow-up and see if you have any

11†††† recollection about this document.† I have a hard copy here if that's

12†††† easier, but we should have it on e-court momentarily.† And that's 3385.

13††††††† A.†† I would like to have a hard copy if possible, the paper version.

14†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Madam Usher, if you could assist.

15†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've seen the document now.

16†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:

17††††††† Q.†† Okay.† We see that it's a communication from the Uzice Corps

18†††† command to the --

19†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† It is now okay.† All right.† Sorry.

21†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:

22††††††† Q.†† We can see from the document, Colonel, that it is dated

23† †††25 January 1993.† It's from the Uzice Corps command to the Drina Corps

24†††† command, references various axes that the Uzice Corps has been involved

25†††† in.† And in paragraph 3 refers to establishing cooperation and then

Page 21871

†1†††† paragraph 4 refers to exchanging information.† Does this refresh your

†2†††† recollection at all as to cooperation between these two corps during the

†3†††† operations in 1993?

†4††††††† A.†† At the time I was in the Main Staff - and I don't know about this

†5†††† communication along the Drina Corps-Uzice Corps line, I've never seen

†6†††† this document before and I didn't know about this form of communication.

†7††††††† Q.†† Let me just ask you this:† In your experience in the Main Staff

†8†††† and as a corps commander, would this type of communication between a

†9†††† corps in Serbia and a corps in Bosnia and Herzegovina, would that have

10†††† typically been communicated or made known to the Main Staff of the VRS?

11††††††† A.†† As a rule, this type of communication should have gone through

12†††† the Main Staff not directly between the two different or several

13†††† different corps.† That's in my opinion.† So what they should have done is

14†††† to inform the Main Staff too.† I don't know if the Main Staff was indeed

15††† †informed or not.

16††††††† Q.†† And, sir, what is your recollection with respect to cooperation

17†††† between these two corps during the Krivaja 95 operation?

18††††††† A.†† I don't know that there was any cooperation during that period of

19†††† time, during the Drina Corps, that is, and the Uzice Corps.† I don't

20†††† think there was in fact, no cooperation.

21††††††† Q.†† Now, Colonel, during May and June of 1995, how many times do you

22†††† recall standing in for the Drina Corps commander?

23†††††† †A.†† Not once.† I don't think I did that once on behalf of the

24†††† Drina Corps commander.

25††††††† Q.†† Okay.† Well, let's just look at one last document and this is

Page 21872

†1†††† 65 ter 3361, please.† Just take a moment and take your time to read the

†2†† ††document and acquaint yourself with it, please.

†3††††††† A.†† Could you move it down a bit, please.† Could you move it down a

†4†††† bit further, please.† More, please.

†5††††††† Q.†† If you're done reading paragraph 3, we'll go to the next page,

†6††† †Colonel.

†7††††††† A.†† I have read it.

†8††††††† Q.†† Okay.† If we look at the last lines on the lower left, what does

†9†††† that say there, sir?

10††††††† A.†† It says:† "Standing in for the commander, Colonel Milenko Lazic."

11††††††† Q.†† And if we could go back to the first page of this document we see

12†††† that it's dated 8 June of 1995 and it references a Main Staff order

13†††† 03/4-1165, dated two days prior, the 6th of June.† And in the order

14†††† section it refers to getting together Drina Corps units to form a

15†††† battalion and various brigades are given tasks further down, including

16†††† the Zvornik Brigade, if we look at paragraph 2.1.

17††††††† A.†† Yes, I see.

18††††††† Q.†† Do you recall issuing this order as standing in for the commander

19†††† of the Drina Corps in June -- early June of 1995, Colonel?

20††††††† A.†† I can't really remember now precisely, but I have to tell you

21†††† that standing in for the commander, if somebody's going to do that you

22†††† need an order and this was probably a temporary absence on behalf of the

23†††† commander and the order had some sort of urgency, so --

24†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Mr. Zivanovic.

25†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† As a matter of principle, I believe that it is

Page 21873

†1†††† fair for the -- toward the witness to show him whole document, not to ask

†2†††† him whether he signed it and he hasn't opportunity to see all document.

†3†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Mr. President, we spent a couple minutes looking at

†4†††† the document.† I don't understand the objection.

†5†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† It's not a long document and it was on the screen.

†6†††† I could see it myself in his language.

†7†††††††††††† So let's proceed.

†8†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:

†9††††††† Q.†† Sir, if you would, you were saying that -- I'll just quote the

10†††† beginning portion of your answer, you said:† "I can't really remember now

11†††† precisely, but I have to tell you that standing in for the commander, if

12†††† somebody's going to do that you need an order and this was probably a

13†††† temporary absence on behalf of the commander and the order had some sort

14†††† of urgency ..."

15†††††††††††† My question to you then, sir, is:† Was it the case in your

16†††† experience in the Drina Corps command that if there were a temporary

17†††† absence of the commander or the Chief of Staff, would you on those

18†††† occasions be delegated or be temporarily standing in if for just that

19†††† limited occasion?

20††††††† A.†† Well, obviously there was no person who was more senior in the

21†††† command than me, so I was expected to sign it because the document was

22†††† urgent.

23††††††† Q.†† Well, my question to you, sir, is:† In your prior answer you

24†††† suggested that as in the case earlier on in the spring of 1995 when there

25†††† was a formal appointment that you were to assume the role of standing in

Page 21874

†1†††† for General Krstic because of his extended medical leave, as opposed to

†2†††† that situation where you had a formal order because everybody knew he was

†3†††† going to be unable to carry out his duties for that period of time; as I

†4†††† understand what you're saying, in some limited circumstances, an

†5†††† emergency or where the commander or Chief of Staff for some reason is

†6†††† temporarily absent, on those occasions you did stand in for the commander

†7†††† or the Chief of Staff.† Is that correct?

†8††††††† A.†† Well, that was the customary practice.

†9††††††† Q.†† And you didn't need any formal order to do that because it was of

10†††† such a temporary nature, just to make it clear?

11††††††† A.†† They were just solutions for urgent cases, otherwise I didn't

12†††† have the right to issue orders or anything similar in practice as a

13†††† general rule.

14††††††† Q.†† Colonel, I thank you.† I have no further questions.

15†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

16†††††††††††† Now, Mr. Popovic -- Mr. Zivanovic, redirect?

17†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Yes, Your Honours.

18†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† How long do you require, how much time?

19†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† I have some videos to play, and I believe that it

20†††† will require --

21†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Okay, go ahead, go ahead.

22†††††††††††††††††††††††††† Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

23††††††† Q.†† [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lazic.

24††††††† A.†† Good morning.

25††††††† Q.†† I'm going to limit my cross-examination to just one portion of

Page 21875

†1†††† the questions put to you by my colleague Mr. Thayer, and they relate to

†2†††† document 3373.† So could we have that document put up on e-court, please.

†3†††† It's the order of the 25th of January -- well, it's not an order.† It's a

†4†††† document of the 25th of January, 1993, and you explained it to us

†5†††† yesterday and said that something had to be done to protect the civilian

†6††† †population and that this is a document referring to the protection of the

†7†††† civilian population in fact.

†8†††††††††††† Now, I'm going to show you a video and I'm just going to ask

†9†††† you - and I'd like to remind you of -- well, take a look at the video and

10†††† I'll ask you a question after that.

11†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Videotape played]

12†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Here we are at the bridge of

13†††† Skelani and here the street of Bajina Basta, civilians died 16th, 17th,

14†††† that is the 16th of January ..."

15†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see anything.

16†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Well, we have to run it again, please, if you don't

17†††† mind.

18†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† The interpreters note that the voice is

19†††† inaudible and we're reading from the text provided to us.

20†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.† I appreciate that.

21†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Videotape played]

22†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "As far as we heard here in

23†††† Bajina Basta, civilians were killed on the 16th -- 17th, that is, 16th,

24†††† 16th of January.

25†††††††††††† "Where is the hospital?

Page 21876

†1†††††††††††† "There behind the van.

†2†††††††††††† "It started on the 16th at 4.30 in the morning.† Suddenly they

†3†††† had distributed their forces throughout the whole range, roughly 16 to 17

†4†††† kilometres, maybe 700 fighters strong.

†5†††††††††††† "On which line was that?

†6†††††††††††† "It was on the line all the way up to the hydro-electric

†7††† †power-plant, the lake and the dam, the way up to Crvice.† On the way up

†8†††† there we lost many people.† They even killed children as people came out

†9†††† of their houses.† They killed without any mercy.† Then our forces went

10†††† into action straight away, there was no panic, besides the civilian

11†††† population who also in the attempt to get away were killed and the

12†††† results are clearly visible.

13†††††††††††† "Is there any data about how many Serbs died, mainly civilians,

14†††† and then how many soldiers?

15†††††††††††† "Around 15 soldiers lost their lives, while the rest were

16†††† civilians.† There are still some people listed as missing, not a large

17†††† number, but around 50 victims in total.

18†††††††††††† "And how many died on their side?

19†††††††††††† "Well, we intercepted them and they lost 150 to 200 men

20†††† approximately.

21†††††††††††† "So it was a massive attack?

22†††††††††††† "Yes, of course.

23†††††††††††† "Which of the villages there?

24†††††††††††† "The villages are Kusici, Visocnik, Drvnik, Malta, Zarkovici,

25†††† that part there Kalimanici, a part of that, they stormed into the whole

Page 21877

†1†††† of Kalimanici.† Eight of the Ustashas remained.† Arapovici, that is where

†2†††† we had most of the victims.† Well, it's presumed that around 17 people

†3†††† lost their lives, not only fighters.

†4†††††††††††† "Okay.† What is your name?

†5†††††††††††† "My name is Maksimovic, Vladimir, nickname Buco.

†6†††††††††††† "In Bajina Basta Dr. Milos Nincic will explain to us how they

†7†††† were organized when they received the wounded and injured in the massacre

†8†††† in Skelani which happened on that particular day.

†9†††††††††††† "Since the whole of the previous year we were under imminent

10†††† danger of war because of the aggression of the Muslim forces against the

11†††† territory of the autonomous Republika Srpska and on the territory of our

12†††† municipality of Skelani, in a way we did enforce certain measures of

13†††† readiness, duty shifts, so as to be able at any given moment to respond

14†††† to" --

15†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Sorry, we can stop here, but I intended to

16†††† show --

17†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yeah, but what's the big idea?† At the end of the

18†††† day I think you can put the question that I am and my colleagues are

19†††† anticipating anything.

20†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† All right.

21††††††† Q.†† [Interpretation] Mr. Lazic, Mr. Lazic, the doctor gave the exact

22†††† date when the incident took place and that was the 16th of January, 1993,

23††† †but the year wasn't stated on the video.† All it said was the date,

24†††† January the 16th.† Now, what I wanted to ask you is this:† Do you perhaps

25†††† remember this particular incident that took place nine days before your

Page 21878

†1†††† act came into being?

†2††††††† A.†† Yes, I do remember.† The situation was very unpleasant and

†3†††† Bajina Basta was under threat.† On the bridge, actually, from Bajina

†4†††† Basta to Skelani some children were even killed.† I heard about that.† I

†5†††† knew about that in general terms, but I did not know that the

†6†††† Uzice Corps, which is logical, had to intervene.† I didn't know that.† I

†7†††† didn't know how far the Uzice Corps had to intervene and what it did.

†8††††††† Q.†† Just tell me this, please.† Do you happen to know, when you say

†9†††† that the Uzice Corps had to intervene, can you explain why, why did it

10†††† have to intervene?

11††††††† A.†† Well, I said that the action going on in the Skelani region

12†††† flowed over across the Drina River and engulfed the territory of Serbia

13†††† as well.† There was shooting on the territory of Serbia as well.

14††††††† Q.†† I'm going to show you another brief excerpt from the same video,

15†††† and it is 8 --

16†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Videotape played]

17†††† ††††††††THE INTERPRETER:† [Voiceover] "Here we are at the bridge in

18†††† Skelani --

19†††††††††††† "The artillery and mortars, the wounded on this side -- there

20†††† weren't any wounded on this side of the Drina River but

21†††† Radojke Milovanovic, let's hear her story."

22†††††††††††† Could counsel give us a reference, please, for the interpreters

23†††† to be able to find the section?

24†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Mr. Zivanovic, the interpreters are asking for a

25†††† reference so that they can follow and translate.

Page 21879

†1†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† It is -- it is toward the end of the video.† It

†2†††† is sixth paragraph on the third -- on the third page of the video -- on

†3†††† the second page -- on the third page of the -- on the third page they

†4 ††††have -- they provided with the text of this video.

†5†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Okay.

†6†††††††††††† JUDGE KWON:† The problem is they can't find the relevant passage.

†7†††† How does it begin to read?

†8†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† "The media objectively stated the jihad warriors

†9†††† were targeting the" --

10†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Thank you, we have found it.

11†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

12†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† If necessary, we can start from the beginning.

13†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Well, I don't know if it is necessary to see the

14†††† video at all if you have a question which can be answered without --

15†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† It is --

16†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† How long this clip?

17†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC: †30 seconds, 40 seconds.

18†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Okay.† Then go ahead.

19†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Videotape played]

20†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† [Voiceover] "The media objectively stated the

21†††† jihad warriors were targeting the Yugoslav side with their artillery,

22†††† their mortars, but what was reported that there were no wounded on this

23†††† side of the Drina.† Here is Radojke Milovanovic who was wounded in

24†††† Yugoslavia, so let us hear her story.

25†††††††††††† "There were five to six wounded from my group, Dobrila, whom I

Page 21880

†1†††† know, Dusanka also, Borka and myself, the four of us, I believe.† There

†2†††† is more but I haven't seen that.† We are from that group that were

†3†††† wounded over here over the bridge.

†4†††††††††††† "So you crossed over?

†5†††††††††††† "Yes, we did."

†6†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

†7††††††† Q.†† Mr. Lazic, does this excerpt confirm that some people were

†8†††† wounded in the territory of Yugoslavia as well on that occasion?

†9††††††† A.†† Yes, obviously.

10††††††† Q.†† What about the Yugoslav authorities or the Army of Yugoslavia,

11†††† did they have the task to protect their population and territory?

12††††††† A.†† Yes, that is one of the basic tasks of any armed forces.

13††††††† Q.† †You saw where this took place.† Is it near Uzice?

14††††††† A.†† Uzice is a bit further afield, but it is the main town in that

15†††† area.

16††††††† Q.†† Do you know whether this place, this part, was in the area of

17†††† defence of the Uzice Corps?

18††††††† A.†† Yes.

19††††††† Q.†† I wanted to ask you this:† Are you familiar with any attacks

20†††† which took place in December, such as an attack against the village of

21†††† Bjelovac, and I have in mind 1992?† Have you ever heard of that?

22††††††† A.†† Yes, it was when the Muslim forces, or rather, the forces of the

23†††† Army of B&H launched an attack from the area of Srebrenica.† They were

24†††† very active, destroying the villages in the area of Skelani and Bratunac

25†††† in particular.

Page 21881

†1†††† †††Q.†† I wanted to play another excerpt.

†2†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Videotape played]

†3†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Unless we have a reference, we cannot read the

†4†††† text and it is completely inaudible.

†5†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Did you take note of that, Mr. Zivanovic?† The

†6†††† interpreters need a reference as before.

†7†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† It's the tape number 6, aftermath of attack on

†8†††† Bjelovac.

†9†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Is that okay, interpreters, please?

10††††††††††† †THE INTERPRETER:† We found it.† Thank you.

11†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.† Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

12†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Videotape played]

13†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Stop here, please, and I will play it from 3.58.

14†††††††††††††† ††††††††††††[Videotape played]

15†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† [Voiceover] "This is Matic, Snjezana, our lab

16†††† assistant who died in Bjelovac.† She received a wound to the right thigh

17†††† and she also suffered some suspicious tears on her neck and face and on

18†††† her left cheek.† She is the first to arrive here.† Most of these are

19†††† gun-shot wounds."

20†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Stop, stop, stop.† What's your question,

21†††† Mr. Zivanovic?

22†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 †††††††Q.†† My question, Mr. Lazic, is this:† Was the Drina Corps tasked with

24†††† protecting the Serbian population in the area of Bjelovac and the

25†††† villages where this crime took place?

Page 21882

†1††††††† A.†† Of course they did.

†2†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Did you have to show him that video to put this

†3†††† question?

†4†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† I haven't --

†5†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Come on, Mr. Zivanovic --

†6†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† -- showed him --

†7†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Let's move.† Come on.† I mean, please keep in mind

†8†††† that you have four Judges here, four professional Judges, and not a panel

†9†††† of lay jurors.

10†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Yes, Mr. President, but it was the subject of the

11†††† cross-examination of my learned --

12†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† But everyone knows that crimes were committed --

13†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† I have to corroborate --

14†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† -- you don't need to show all this.† I mean,

15†††† playing for the gallery, to the gallery -- what?† You could have put the

16†††† question just the same without showing the video.

17†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Thank you.† I have another similar videos if

18†††† Trial Chamber didn't like to --

19†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† What are you -- what are you alleging?† Maybe the

20†††† Prosecution will stipulate?

21†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† For example, that Cerska was attacked as well and

22†††† same crimes took place in Cerska as well, and I call -- Cerska was the

23†††† subject of the cross-examination --

24†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Mr. Thayer or Mr. McCloskey, if Mr. McCloskey is

25†††† still here, are you prepared to agree that Cerska was attacked and let's

Page 21883

†1†††† move?

†2†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Prosecution counsel confer]

†3†††† ††††††††MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Was attacked by ABH.

†4†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Mr. President, the Prosecution's position has been

†5†††† clear from the beginning of this case, that we concede that crimes were

†6†††† committed by the ABiH.† He can put in the whole Naser Oric judgement if

†7†††† he pleases.

†8†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Not only that.† We have our decision of November

†9†††† 2006, in which --

10†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† In this case I --

11†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† So put the question.† The question is whether the

12†††† task of the army was to protect the civilians and Serbian property, et

13†††† cetera, and of course that's perfectly legitimate.† But we don't have to

14†††† go through one film after another.

15†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† I'll do it, Your Honour.

16††††††† Q.†† [Interpretation] Mr. Lazic, these attacks - and I wanted to show

17†††† you some footage of the attack on Cerska and Skelani and some other

18†††† places as well, but tell me, were those attacks some of the reasons that

19†††† the order that we saw was put in place?

20††††††† A.†† Yes, it was the basic reason for it.

21††††††† Q.†† In your view, although you didn't participate in it, the attacks

22†††† on the territory of Yugoslavia, was that the reason for certain measures

23†††† undertaken by the Uzice Corps at the time?

24††††††† A.†† I think that is correct.

25††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† I have no further questions.

Page 21884

†1†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

†2†††††††††††† Mr. Nikolic, do you wish to re-examine the witness?

†3†††††††††††† MR. NIKOLIC:† [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, we have no

†4†††† additional questions.

†5†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Madam Faveau, I know -- Mr. Petrusic, sorry, I know

†6†††† that you intend to re-examine this witness.† Go ahead, please.

†7†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

†8†††††††††††††††††††††††††† Re-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

†9††††††† Q.†† [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lazic.

10††††††† A.†† Good morning.

11††††††† Q.†† I will start with 1995.† Briefly, I would like you to have a look

12†††† at 5D227.† Could that please be put in e-court.

13†††††††††††† Let us go to the next page so that we can see it briefly and then

14†††† we can return to the first page.

15†††††††††††† This commander -- sorry, this document, Mr. Lazic, was signed by

16†††† Commander Colonel Avdo Palic.† Do you know who it is?

17††††††† A.†† As far as I recall, he was the commander of the Zepa Brigade.

18††††††† Q.†† Please go to page 1 again.† As you can see, this document was

19†††† issued by the Zepa Brigade, that is the 285th Eastern Bosnian Light

20†††† Brigade Zepa sent to the command of the 2nd Corps and to the command of

21†††† the 28th Division.† I believe you will agree that the Zepa Brigade was a

22†††† part of the 28th Division?

23††††††† A.†† Yes.

24†††††††††††† JUDGE KWON:† Could you wait until the Judges have English

25†††† translation.

Page 21885

†1†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† We don't have the translation of this document in

†2†††† front of us actually.

†3†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

†4††††††† Q.†† Mr. Lazic, this is a combat report which says that pursuant to an

†5†††† order of the person standing in for the commander of the 28th Division

†6†††† from Srebrenica, Major Rasim Becirovic dated the 20th of June, 1995,

†7†††† measures are being undertaken to conduct sabotage activities with a goal

†8†††† of inflicting losses upon the aggressor and as regards its personnel and

†9†††† equipment and to try and divert the amassing of Chetnik forces around

10†††† Sarajevo.

11†††††††††††† Did you know that in that period of June and around the 20th of

12†††† June there were such activities on the part of the Army of Bosnia and

13†††† Herzegovina?

14††††††† A.†† I remember there were such activities at the time.

15†††† †††Q.†† Please scroll down the pages.† Thank you.† That would suffice.

16†††††††††††† You can see in this document that Colonel Palic is reporting to

17†††† his command that nine sabotage groups were formed or scouting groups or

18†††† reconnaissance groups as they termed them.† It says the first group is

19†††† along the area of the highway Zljebovi, Pecnik.† The second group is in

20†††† the area of Rijeka.† The third is in the area of Velika-Zepa.† The fourth

21†††† in the area of Solila.† The fifth in Crna Rijeka.† By the way, I wanted

22†††† to ask you whether the Crna Rijeka area is also where the command of the

23†††† Main Staff of Republika Srpska was?

24††††††† A.†† Yes.† The Main Staff was deployed in Crna Rijeka.

25††††††† Q.†† The sixth group was in the area of Banja Lucica, the seventh

Page 21886

†1†††† again in the area of Crna Rijeka but closer to Bojcino Brdo.† The eighth

†2†††† in the area of Karaula, and the ninth in the area of the village of

†3†††† Visnjica.

†4†††††††††††† My question is this:† All of the sabotage groups that had been

†5†††† formed, were they sent to the territory that was outside the protected

†6†††† areas of Srebrenica and Zepa and under the control of the Army of

†7†††† Republika Srpska or the VRS, that is?

†8††††††† A.†† I don't know whether exactly all of them were sent, but I know

†9†††† something concerning the Visnjica group.† They were active and inflicted

10†††† serious losses among the civilians.† The group Crna Rijeka was also

11†††† active and put the Main Staff itself in danger.† There were more frequent

12†††† attacks towards Krivaca and Solila as well as towards Velika Zepa where

13†††† our communications centre was.† As for the other groups, I'm not familiar

14†††† with that.

15††††††† Q.†† Please go further down the document.† That is enough.† The last

16†††† paragraph says that some 40 Chetniks were killed, dozens were wounded,

17†††† and a large amount of infantry weapons was seized, among others we see

18†††† automatic rifles being mentioned, then the machine-guns, radio devices,

19†††† rounds of ammunition, and other equipment.† Are you familiar with the

20†††† losses referred to by Colonel Palic here?

21††††††† A.†† I'm not familiar with any details, but I did hear of some losses.

22†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Please could we see document

23†††† 5D1100 next in e-court -- I apologise, this document has not been

24†††† translated but it is due to arrive in the system shortly.

25†††††††††††† [Microphone not activated]

Page 21887

†1†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Microphone, please.

†2†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

†3††††††† Q.†† Item 3.† On that day, the 26th of June, the deputy commander,

†4†††† Major-General Radislav Krstic, reported that the enemy intensified

†5†††† sabotage group incursions in particular from the enclaves of Zepa and

†6†††† Srebrenica.† Were you familiar with that on the 26th?

†7††††††† A.†† Yes.

†8††††††† Q.†† Please go back up to the very beginning of the document.† In the

†9†††† second paragraph it states that in the area of the Milici Brigade an

10†††† enemy sabotage group 15 to 20 soldiers strong from Zepa at 4.30 routed

11†††† our forward detachment at the Klicac feature and entered the village of

12†††† Visnjica.

13†††††††††††† Further in the report it is stated that one soldier was killed, a

14†††† sergeant was wounded as well as one woman, five houses were set on fire,

15†††† and the cattle driven away.† On the 26th -- well, is that the attack on

16†††† Visnjica that you refer to?

17††††††† A.†† Yes.

18††††††† Q.†† And of course would you agree with me that the command of the

19†††† Drina Corps was fully informed about it all?

20††††††† A.†† Yes, it was.

21†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back to page 2 of the

22†††† document now, please.

23††††††† Q.†† Tell us who signed this document, please.

24††††††† A.†† Major-General Radislav Krstic.

25††††††† Q.†† Is that his signature or ...

Page 21888

†1††††††† A.†† I don't think it's his signature because you have the word "za,"

†2†††† meaning "for," so somebody signed for him.

†3††††††† Q.†† Is this your signature?

†4††††††† A.†† No, no, it isn't.

†5††††††† Q.†† Now let's have document 107, please -- P107 the number is.† And

†6†††† let's go straight to page 2 if we may.

†7†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic, I think you're familiar with this document.† It is an

†8†††† order for active combat operation issued by the command of the

†9†††† Drina Corps, Milenko Zivanovic.† Can we go down the document to see point

10†††† 2.

11†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic, in paragraph 2 we've already commented on it, the

12†††† Drina Corps command pursuant to directives 7 and 7/1 of the Main Staff of

13†††† the Army of Republika Srpska and on the basis of the situation in the

14†††† area of responsibility of the corps.

15†††††††††††† Now, my question to you is this and that's the point I'd like to

16†††† refer to:† What do you understand by this?† When it says this situation

17†††† in the area of the corps' responsibility, can that mean the situation, a

18†††† prior situation, that is to say from the end of June, in which an attack

19†††† took place by the Muslim sabotage groups on the territory of the Army of

20†††† Republika Srpska and the burning of this village, Visnjica?

21††††††† A.†† Yes.

22††††††† Q.†† In your opinion, could that have been a basis for the Drina Corps

23†††† commander to issue the order for combat action or the start of the

24†††† attack --

25†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. Thayer.

Page 21889

†1†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Your Honour, I've let a lot of leading go by, and

†2†††† this is also really when a question is prefaced with "in your opinion,"

†3†††† you know.† We've had a lot of thoughts and so forthcoming from

†4†††† Colonel Lazic, but if there's any way to base it in any experience to

†5†††† save the question otherwise, it's really sounding like it's eliciting

†6†††† some kind of expert opinion.

†7†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, I won't comment on that.

†8†††††††††††† Mr. Petrusic, I'm sure you will continue with your re-examination

†9†††† along the established rules of procedure and avoiding direct or leading

10†††† questions and not eliciting expert opinion from the witness.† Otherwise,

11†††† please go ahead and try to bring your re-examination to an end as quickly

12†††† as you can.

13†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

14††††††† Q.† †Mr. Lazic, is there a connection between the previous attacks and

15†††† this particular situation, or rather, this order?

16††††††† A.†† Certainly.

17††††††† Q.†† May we now have document 3359 and 3358 put up on e-court, please,

18†††† if that is technically possible.

19†††††††††††† Mr. Gavric -- I mean Mr. Lazic, on the right-hand side of our

20†††† screens we have a document issued by Captain Gavric --

21†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Well, for the witness is it

22†††† possible to have ...

23†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document has been taken off the

24†††† screen.

25†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes --

Page 21890

†1†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's back again.

†2†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. Thayer.

†3†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† If it moves things along, I've got hard copies of

†4†††† both documents I can just give to the witness to look at instead of

†5†††† proceeding this way.

†6†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† I think we've got it right now.† Thank you.

†7†††††††††††† Go ahead.

†8†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

†9††††††† Q.†† Mr. Gavric -- I mean Lazic, the document on the right-hand side

10†††† of the screen is signed, as you see, by Mico Gavric.† Now, was he

11†††† subordinate, a subordinate officer, to Vidoje Blagojevic, the commander

12†††† of the Bratunac Brigade?

13††††††† A.†† Yes, he was.

14††††††† Q.†† On the left-hand side you see a report by Commander Blagojevic in

15†††† which he states that four projectiles were fired.

16††††††† A.†† Yes.

17†††††† †Q.†† Can you see that?

18††††††† A.†† Yes, I can.

19††††††† Q.†† Now, in Gavric's document it says that this firing took place at

20†††† 1907 hours.† Can you see that?

21††††††† A.†† Yes, I can.

22††††††† Q.†† And do you see in the document that after this first firing took

23†††† place that something went wrong with that artillery piece?

24††††††† A.†† Yes, I can see that.

25††††††† Q.†† Do you happen to know on the basis of what -- how it -- how it

Page 21891

†1†††† happened that Colonel Blagojevic says that four projectiles were fired,

†2†††† whereas Gavric speaks of just one?

†3††††††† A.†† First of all, I don't know how Captain Gavric could have been

†4†††† writing to the Drina Corps in the first place because he was a

†5†††† subordinate officer, he was subordinate to the Bratunac Brigade.

†6†††† Secondly, Colonel Blagojevic most probably maintained communication with

†7†††† Captain Gavric, so it was on the basis of their conversations that he

†8†††† arrived at that piece of information.† That's my opinion.

†9†† †††††Q.†† I'm asking you whether in Gavric's report there are grounds for

10†††† Vidoje Blagojevic to say that four projectiles were fired?

11††††††† A.†† Obviously not.

12††††††† Q.†† May we have the next document 4D135, please.

13†††††††††††† This is a report from the Ministry of Defence, the secretariat of

14†††† defence in Tuzla, the department for Srebrenica municipality, and on the

15†††† document we have a list of all the business premises used by the armed

16†††† forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17†††††††††††† Can we pan down, please.† Thank you.† And at the end of that page

18†††† under number 4 -- rather, IV it says:† "The 282nd East Bosnian Light

19†††† Brigade in Srebrenica."

20†††††††††††† And then under number I it says:† "Uses Hotel Domavija

21†††† Srebrenica," and the user is the 282nd East Bosnian Light Brigade.† In

22†††† English that should be on page 2.

23†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic, is that a military facility?

24††††††† A.†† It is a civilian facility which is used during wartime for

25†††† military purposes.

Page 21892

†1††††††† Q.†† From the aspects of the army can it represent a military target?

†2††††††† A.†† Yes, of course.

†3††††††† Q.†† In his report and a number, or rather, Exhibit P3359,

†4†††† Colonel Blagojevic states that one shell fell on, or rather, two

†5†††† projectiles fell near the Domavija facility.† Do you remember that?

†6††††††† A.†† Yes.

†7††††††† Q.†† During yesterday's examination-in-chief -- or rather, the

†8†††† examination by the Prosecutor, you said something about how orders were

†9†††† conveyed and passed on.† Now, I'm going to show you a document and it is

10†††† 5D1077.† And this is the last document, unfortunately, for which we do

11†††† not have a translation that we're going to use today.† This is a

12†††† Drina Corps document dated the 25th of May, 1995.† May we pan down.

13†††† Thank you.

14†††††††††††† And it is signed by Major-General Milenko Zivanovic.

15†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic, would you read point 4, please.

16††††††† A.†† "Ensure that all anti-aircraft devices be placed on high

17†††† combat-readiness and monitor the situation constantly in the air-space."

18†††††††††††† I can't see what it says next.† Anyway, it says:† "Open fire on

19†††† UNPROFOR planes pursuant to permission given by the Main Staff and open

20†††† fire without waiting for permission on enemy forces -- enemy forces

21†††† firing on our forces and civilian targets."

22††††††† Q.†† So is the corps commander conveying an order from the Main Staff,

23†††† or rather, General Mladic, saying how to fire, how to open fire?

24††††††† A.†† Yes.

25††††††† Q.†† And is it General Zivanovic who is conveying this information?

Page 21893

†1††††††† A.†† Yes.

†2††††††† Q.†† In the previous case would it only be he, General Zivanovic, or

†3†††† someone of equal standing be in a position to convey orders?

†4††††††† A.†† Yes.

†5††††††† Q.†† P3029 is the next document I'd like to have up on e-court now,

†6†††† please.† This is a Drina Corps document issued by the Drina Corps on the

†7†††† 24th of November, 1992, signed by Commander Colonel Milenko Zivanovic.

†8†††††††††††† Do you remember that the Prosecutor yesterday linked this

†9†††† document up to the directive number 4, directive number 4, and that can

10†††† be concluded on the basis of his -- of the first paragraph where it says:

11†††† "Pursuant to the directive strictly confidential number 02/5 of the 19th

12†††† of November, 1992, the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska," and

13†††† so on and so forth.

14†††††††††††† So do you remember this document, it was shown to you yesterday?

15††††††† A.†† Yes, I do.

16††††††† Q.†† May we go to the bottom of the page.† Thank you.

17†††††††††††† Can you see the title there, the heading, where it says the

18†††† object of the operation?

19††††††† A.†† Yes.

20††††††† Q.†† So underneath that heading what it says is this:† "Rout and throw

21†††† out enemy forces from the area of responsibility of the corps."

22†††††††††††† Then it says the next goal which is the following:† "Open up the

23†††† corridors:† Visegrad-Rogatica-Pale and Visegrad-Gorazde-Foca."

24†††††††††††† The next goal:† "Rout and throw out of the area of responsibility

25†††† all paramilitary formations."

Page 21894

†1†††††††††††† Then the next goal is to:† "Create favourable conditions for the

†2†††† functioning of civilian authority in the liberated towns and throughout

†3†††† the territory in the area of responsibility of the corps."

†4†††††††††††† Then it goes on to say:† "To create the best possible conditions

†5†††† for members of the Army of Republika Srpska and the population especially

†6†††† during winter in the area of responsibility of the corps."

†7†††††††††††† Now, these goals set out in this way, is there anything there

†8†††† which relates to expelling the civilian population from this territory?

†9†† †††††A.†† There isn't.

10††††††† Q.†† Can we turn to the next page, please.† Can we scroll down a bit,

11†††† please.† That's fine.

12†††††††††††† Let us look at point 2 where it says:† "Tasks for the units."

13†††††††††††† The first task given to the Zvornik Brigade reads:† "In the

14†††† present area of responsibility conduct or carry out the necessary

15†††† regrouping and ensure for the main sources the corridor of

16†††† Zvornik-Crni Vrh-Ceparde and directly link up and ensure coordinated

17†††† action with elements of the East Bosnian Corps in the area of the eastern

18†††† slopes of Majevica as well as with elements of the Birac Brigade in the

19†††† Pandurica-Ceparde area.† At the same time, out of the areas of the

20†††† village of Kostijerevo, Milosevici, Mladjevac, Snagovo, engage in active

21†††† combat in coordinated action with elements of the Birac and Bratunac

22†††† Brigades and liberate the general area of the village of Kamenica and

23†††† have elements of the forces at the ready in the direction of Kalesija."

24†††††††††††† In the task given to the Zvornik Brigade, is there any mention of

25†††† the expulsion of the civilian population out of the area of Zvornik and

Page 21895

†1†††† the area covered by the Zvornik Brigade?

†2††††††† A.†† No, there isn't.

†3††††††† Q.†† Under point 2.2, a task was given to the Bratunac Brigade which

†4†††† I'd like you to read, or rather, I should read it out to you.

†5††††††† A.†† Please do so.

†6††††††† Q.†† "The Bratunac Brigade has received the task from its command to

†7†††† engage its main forces in order to rout the enemy forces and reach the

†8†††† features of Loznik, Zanik, Caus, and Bijela Stijena, and to engage its

†9†††† other forces in coordinated action with elements of the Birac Brigade to

10†††† cut off the Srebrenica-Cerska road.† Next, to engage in coordinated

11†††† action with the Birac and Zvornik Brigades in order to liberate the areas

12†††† of Pobudje, Hrnjice and Konjevic Polje, thus creating all the

13†††† pre-conditions for the opening the Vlasenica-Milici-Drinjaca road."

14†††††††††††† Next, it says:† "The Fakovici Battalion should be consolidated as

15†††† soon as possible and tasked with reaching as deep within the area of

16†††† Srebrenica as possible, especially by drawing upon the territories of the

17†††† Serbian villages and to act towards Srebrenica."

18†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic, in this part of the task I read out to you, is there

19†††† any mention of the fact that this task given to the Bratunac Brigade has

20†††† as its goal the expulsion of the civilian population or is there anything

21†††† that would hint at that?

22††††††† A.†† Obviously it is not directed at Srebrenica as the town proper is

23†††† concerned.† What it does speak of is to -- is the use of the Serb

24†††† villages -- rather, what is meant by that is that the intention should be

25†††† to link up the various Serb villages in the area.

Page 21896

†1††††††† Q.†† P2742 was also shown to you yesterday.† Can we have the document

†2†††† now as well.† The document is dated the 1st of May, 1993, from the

†3†††† Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.† It was issued by the deputy

†4†††† commander, Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic [phoen].† The document was

†5†††† uploaded into e-court.

†6†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† The interpreters note that they don't have the

†7†††† official translation.

†8†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

†9††††††† Q.†† Do you know that several days after the 1st of May, namely on the

10†††† 8th of May, Zepa was declared a safe zone, an enclave?

11†††† †††A.†† Yes.

12††††††† Q.†† Do you know that an agreement was signed on the cessation of

13†††† hostilities on both sides?

14††††††† A.†† Yes, I do.

15††††††† Q.†† Do you know if the agreement in question was observed by the

16†††† Army of Republika Srpska?

17††††††† A.†† Yes, it was.

18††††††† Q.†† Can we now call up -- [Microphone not activated]

19†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Microphone for Mr. Petrusic, please.

20†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] P114 and another document --

21†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Which the interpreter didn't hear because the

22†††† microphone was off.

23†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] -- can we place them next to one

24†††† another.† P107 and P114.

25††††††† Q.†† Colonel, the document on the right-hand side was issued by the

Page 21897

†1†††† Drina Corps command.† It is entitled:† "Order for attack on the Zepa

†2†††† enclave."

†3†††††††††††† It was issued on the 13th of July, 1995.† Did you have occasion

†4†††† to see this document?

†5††††††† A.†† No, I did not have occasion to see this document because it was

†6†††† issued at the Krivaca forward command post where I was not present and I

†7†††† did not have otherwise the opportunity of seeing it.

†8††††††† Q.†† This document for the attack on Srebrenica is entitled:† "Command

†9†††† for active combat activity."

10†††††††††††† Did both documents originate from the same command?

11††††††† A.†† Yes.

12††††††† Q.†† Do both of the documents relate to enclaves?

13††††††† A.†† Yes.

14††††††† Q.†† Can you tell us why the 2nd of July document, in the drafting of

15†††† which you kind of participated, is entitled:† "Command for active combat

16†††† activity," whereas the 13th of July, 1995, document is entitled:

17†††† "Command for the attack on the Zepa enclave"?

18††††††† A.†† I could not account for that.† There are no material differences

19†††† there.

20††††††† Q.†† Does the character of the combat activities involved, to put it

21†††† in layman's terms, the character of the combat activities to be carried

22†††† out, is that something that was in this instance decided upon by the

23†††† corps commander?

24††††††† A.†† Yes.

25†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. Thayer.

Page 21898

†1†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Just to clarify for the record, Mr. President, since

†2†††† we're talking about two different documents, one having to do with

†3†††† Srebrenica, the other one having to do with Zepa, if we could just

†4†††† clarify which the last answer was referring to.

†5†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes.

†6†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic, if you could clarify that for us, please.

†7†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first document was made at the

†8†††† corps command as a result of the preparations for the conduct of active

†9†††† combat activities in the direction of Srebrenica.† This document did not

10†††† include an attack on Srebrenica, rather, combat activities in the general

11†††† area, the separation of enclaves -- or rather, it did not imply an attack

12†††† on Zepa.† When the conditions were met on the 13th, as the second

13†††† document testifies, a subsequent order was issued for an attack on the

14†††† Zepa enclave.

15†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Okay.† Is that clear enough to you?

16†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† It is.† Thank you, Mr. President.

17†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

18 ††††††††††††Let's proceed, Mr. Petrusic, please.

19†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

20††††††† Q.†† Now that we have touched upon this topic, what do -- which

21†††† activities do combat activities include?

22††††††† A.†† All sort of combat activities.

23††††††† Q.†† I'm sorry my question had to do with active combat activities.

24††††††† A.†† Active combat activities is a broader term which includes both

25†††† offensive and defensive combat activity.

Page 21899

†1††††††† Q.†† Can we now have document P5, the last page of that document.

†2†††† This is directive number 7 issued by the Commander-in-Chief,

†3†††† Dr. Karadzic.† [Microphone not activated]

†4†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Microphone for Mr. Petrusic, please.

†5†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] That should be the penultimate

†6†††† page.† I'm sorry.† Page 21 of the Serbian version.† Can we look at the

†7†††† bottom of the page, that's page 15 in fact in e-court in English?

†8††††††† Q.†† Mr. Lazic, can you please look at point 8 which says:† "Send

†9†††† corps commander's decisions for approval to the commander of the VRS Main

10†††† Staff seven days before carrying out the planned operation."

11†††††††††††† This is my question for you.† If the operation Srebrenica was

12†††† planned on the basis of the directive, did the commander of the

13†††† Drina Corps have the obligation to send to the commander of the

14†††† Main Staff the order that he issued for his approval?

15††††††† A.†† That was the practice applied under normal living and working

16†††† conditions; however, you will admit that the fact that

17†††† President Karadzic, as the supreme commander, issued an order was

18†††† something that was out of the ordinary.† And as a result of that, this

19†††† order was placed in a bit of an awkward situation as testified by this

20†††† point 8.

21††††††† Q.†† Do you wish to say that the commander did not send his order for

22†††† approval?

23††††††† A.†† No, he definitely did but he was not able to do it seven days

24†††† ahead of the planned operation, rather, he was able to do it only when

25†††† the order was ready, when it was completed.

Page 21900

†1††††††† Q.†† At any rate, there would have been some sort of written record of

†2†††† it -- or rather, would there have been a written record of it somewhere?

†3††††††† A.†† There should have been.

†4††††††† Q.†† Do you know - and we're not calling for speculation here - that

†5†††† this was, in fact, done?

†6††††††† A.†† I don't.

†7†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, any time soon we need to have a break,

†8†††† Mr. Petrusic.† How far away are you from finishing your re-examination?

†9†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if we take the

10†††† break now I could have a look at my notes and it is possible that I will

11†††† have one or two questions or that I will have none.† If that is not a

12†††† problem for you or the witness, I would like us to take the break now,

13†††† yes.

14†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Not at all, Mr. Petrusic.

15†††††††††††† We'll have a break, as you suggest, 25 minutes and we'll take it

16†††† up from there.† Thank you.

17†††††††††††††††††††††††††† --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

18†††††††††††††††††††††††††† --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

19†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Mr. Petrusic, please.

20†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21††††††† Q.†† Mr. Lazic, for the last time during your testimony we'll go back

22†††† to P5 which is to your right.† You can have a look.† Please go to page 8

23†††† for you.† In e-court it is page 10 in the B/C/S -- sorry, 15, and in the

24†††† B/C/S version 10.† Yes.

25†††††††††††† The Drina Corps, under that heading the task was to completely

Page 21901

†1†††† physically separate the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica in order to

†2†††† prevent any communication between the enclaves.

†3†††††††††††† On this page, page 8, please read for yourself what operations

†4†††† are being mentioned which were part of the Drina Corps tasks, at least

†5†††† according to this directive.† In order to navigate you through the text,

†6†††† I just wanted to tell you that they are all in quotation marks.

†7††††††† A.†† I found it.

†8††††††† Q.†† Can you tell us what operations are those.

†9††††††† A.†† The operation that has to do with the separation of Srebrenica

10†††† and Zepa, then the Operation Jadar, the Operation Zvijezda, the

11†††† Operation Spreca.

12††††††† Q.†† What about Operation Zvijezda, does its name also include 95, is

13†††† its full name Operation Zvijezda 95?

14††††††† A.†† Yes.

15††††††† Q.†† Does that mean that it was supposed to be carried out in 1995?

16††††††† A.†† It was just the name.† It needn't necessarily mean that it was

17†††† supposed to take place in 1995.† It probably was planned for that year,

18†††† but it didn't have to mean necessarily that it would be implemented that

19†††† year.

20††††††† Q.†† What about Spreca operation, is it also Spreca 95 operation?

21††††††† A.†† Yes.

22††††††† Q.†† Does the same explanation apply to this operation as well?

23††††††† A.†† Yes.

24††††††† Q.†† Do you know why in this task given to the Drina Corps to separate

25†††† Srebrenica and Zepa no name is mentioned, there is no operation name?

Page 21902

†1††††††† A.†† I don't know.† Perhaps it was because the combat activities

†2†††† concerning the separation did not present an operation in itself in the

†3†††† full sense of the words.† Those were combat activities that had to do

†4†††† with the separation of the two enclaves.

†5††††††† Q.†† Please go to the next page.† For you it is page 9.† In the

†6†††† English it should be page 11.† In any case, the name of the chapter is

†7†††† Herzegovina Corps, therefore, could we please go further down the

†8†††† document.

†9†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic -- it is page 12 in the English version.

10††††††† A.†† I see.

11††††††† Q.†† Do you see the penultimate paragraph under the Herzegovina Corps

12†††† task?† It reads:† "Until the end of March -- by the end of March 1995 the

13†††† Herzegovina Corps command shall plan operations for reaching the Neretva

14†††† river valley named Krivaja 95."

15†††††††††††† Do you see that?

16††††††† A.†† I do.

17††††††† Q.†† Does this task given to the Herzegovina Corps, Krivaja 95, have

18†††† anything to do with the Drina Corps task?

19††††††† A.†† It has nothing to do with it.

20††††††† Q.†† This concludes my examination concerning this document.† I have

21†††† another document which is an intercept, the P number is 1242.† Could we

22†††† please have that brought up on our screens.† In the transcript the number

23†††† should be 1242B.

24†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic --

25††††††† †††††JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. Thayer.

Page 21903

†1†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Mr. President, I just ask for a moment, if we could,

†2†††† because we're having trouble getting the English transcript up here.† I

†3†††† don't know if --

†4†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† It's on e-court --

†5†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Yeah, we're -- that's what we're trying to do.† It's

†6†††† just slow on our side for some reason.† I just ask for a second so we can

†7†††† see it.

†8†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, by all means.

†9†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Thank you.

10†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† When you're ready, tell me so that we can proceed.

11†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Interpreter's note, we don't have the benefit

12†††† of the official translation.

13†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† We have it now, Mr. President.

14†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Let's move, there's nothing special here.† It's a

15†††† short intercept that we're talking about.

16†††††††††††† Mr. Petrusic.

17†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

18††††††† Q.†† Mr. Lazic, you said that in the period after the planned

19†††† operation, among others locations, you visited the location where

20†††† Colonel Vlacic was, that is the Bircani Brigade.† I will read out a part

21†††† of that conversation.† The conversation took place between the

22†††† then-General Krstic by some the corps commander -- or rather, by the

23†††† presidential decree he was appointed the Drina Corps commander.† The date

24†††† is the 18th of July, time 5.16 p.m.† Somewhere around the middle of the

25†††† first page we have General Krstic who is at the IKM in Krivaca --

Page 21904

†1†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† One moment, Mr. Petrusic.† I hate to interrupt you

†2†††† but you just said 5.16 p.m.† In the English translation that we have at

†3†††† the top of the page we have 0716 hours.† The document that we see on

†4†††† e-court does mention in the bottom -- does have a reference to Lazic and

†5†††† to Vlacic, but I want to make sure that we're talking of the same -- yes.

†6†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† I think the intercept my friend wishes to show is

†7†††† actually 1142, not 1242, which is what we have on the screen right now.

†8†††† I think if we go there it might be the correct one.

†9†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yeah, could you check that, Mr. Petrusic, please.

10†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Microphone not activated]

11†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Microphone.

12†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This is the intercept I have on my

13†††† e-court monitor.† It is at frequency 255850, time 7 hours 16 minutes.† I

14†††† misspoke.

15†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† All right.† Then that's fine.† That's correct.† We

16†††† have the same one.† Thank you.† Let's proceed then.

17†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] But the number is the correct one.

18††††††† Q.†† General Krstic says to Cerovic -- well, first of all, Mr. Lazic,

19†††† do you know who Cerovic is?

20††††††† A.†† I do, Colonel Cerovic was one of the assistants -- assistant

21†††† commanders.

22††††††† Q.†† Of course he was with the Drina Corps command?

23††††††† A.†† Yes, he was assistant to the Drina Corps commander.

24††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† General Krstic says:† "Listen well, Cerovic."

25†††††††††††† Then Cerovic says:† "Go ahead.

Page 21905

†1†††††††††††† "Krstic:† Go down there and command that part.

†2†††††††††††† "Cerovic:† I understand.

†3†††††††††††† "Krstic:† Go ahead.

†4†††††††††††† "Cerovic:† Just listen.† Yesterday evening Lazic called in.† He

†5†††† said that since Vlacic had arrived he intended to come here.

†6†††††††††††† "Krstic:† Well, fine, you are the main man there.† Is it clear?

†7†††††††††††† "Cerovic:† Yes, sir.

†8†††††††††††† "Krstic:† Therefore, convey it to him that you are the main

†9†††† person.

10†††††††††††† "Cerovic:† Yes, sir, General.

11†††††††††††† "Krstic:† And command in such a way" --

12†††† ††††††††JUDGE AGIUS:† Yeah, we need to see the second page of this

13†††† document in English.

14†††††††††††† Yes, go ahead.

15†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

16††††††† Q.†† I want to go on reading.

17†††††††††††† Krstic says:† "Command that way.

18†††††††††††† Cerovic says:† "Clear."

19†††††††††††† Krstic says:† "Pay particular attention to the part to the west

20†††† of you."

21†††††††††††† The rest of the conversation is not important for us now.

22†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic, did the corps commander have the right to appoint

23†††† someone to replace him in this or similar situations?

24††††††† A.†† Yes, it was his right.

25††††††† Q.†† Did he appoint Cerovic to be his assistant instead of you as the

Page 21906

†1†††† chief of administration?

†2††††††† A.† †You're wrong.† I wasn't administration chief.

†3††††††† Q.†† Sorry, Chief of Staff.

†4††††††† A.†† I wasn't that either.

†5††††††† Q.†† What was your position at the time?

†6††††††† A.†† Head of the department for training and education -- and

†7†††† operations.

†8††††††† Q.†† Does General Krstic appoint Cerovic as the person who was

†9†††† supposed to stand in for him in this conversation?

10††††††† A.†† I think this conversation took place after the 13th of July once

11†††† Krstic had become the corps commander.† Cerovic was his assistant.† It is

12†††† most likely that for that reason Krstic decided that he should command

13†††† from the command post in Vlasenica with the rest of the corps or over the

14†††† rest of the corps while he was away.† I was, therefore, being excluded

15†††† from any command responsibilities or roles.

16††††††† Q.†† Mr. Lazic, I beg your pardon, I forgot what your position was at

17†††† the time.† This was also my last question.† I have no further questions

18†††† of you, and thank you.

19†††††††††††† MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

20†††† questions.

21†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

22†††††††††††† That brings to an end the testimony -- your testimony, Mr. Lazic,

23†††† unless -- yes, Mr. Thayer.

24†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Mr. President, I have two questions that arise

25†††† directly from the re-direct which will take no more than five --

Page 21907

†1†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Which re-direct?

†2†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† My learned friend from the Miletic team.

†3†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Let's see what the questions are first before we

†4†††† authorise the witness to answer them.

†5†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† The first question has to do with a particular

†6†††† document, a 1993 Drina Corps order which my friend spent some time going

†7†††† through in terms of the individual tasks being issued to the brigades and

†8†††† asked very specific questions about whether those specific tasks involved

†9†††† moving out, forcibly removing, the Muslim population.† I want to point

10†††† out one portion of that document which was not shown to the witness

11†††† during that re-direct examination.

12†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† That -- doesn't a document once it is in the record

13†††† speak for itself?

14†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† It does, Your Honour, and we can certainly make that

15†††† a matter of submissions later on.† I just, while we were on it, wanted to

16†††† follow up.

17†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† The other question?

18†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† The second question has to do with the specific

19†††† question regarding whether or not there is a written record of the

20†††† Krivaja 95 plan going to the Main Staff.† It was one of the -- I believe

21†††† the last question my friend asked before the break whether there was --

22†††† whether he was aware of any written record of that being done.† I wanted

23†††† to show the witness one document which, in the Prosecution's submission,

24†††† shows that was the case.

25†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 21908

†1†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Just put your second question and forget the first

†2†††† one.

†3†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Certainly, Mr. President.

†4†††††††††††††††††††††††††† Further Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

†5††††††† Q.†† Good morning again, Colonel.† You were shown 65 ter 107, which is

†6†††† the Krivaja 95 combat plan.† I have a hard copy here for you or we can

†7†††† put it up in e-court.† I just ask if we could go to the last page of the

†8†††† English which is page 6 of the B/C/S.† And again, this is the 2 July

†9†††† Krivaja 95 combat plan which my friend asked you about and I believe you

10†††† suggested that it -- you testified that this should have gone to the

11†††† Main Staff.† Let me know when you see that last page.

12††† ††††A.†† Yes.† That is correct, that it should have been sent.† You can

13†††† see from the contents, that is to say that one copy should be sent to the

14†††† Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, that that was compulsive.

15††††††† Q.†† Thank you, Colonel.† I have no further questions.

16†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. Josse.

17†††††††††††† MR. JOSSE:† It's been done now, but could I ask what the point of

18†††† that was.† It was exactly the same as Your Honours had just ruled in

19†††† relation to the other document.† The document speaks for itself.† The

20†††† evidence is in.† Purely gratuitous.

21†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yeah, yeah, you are right, but we couldn't

22†††† anticipate everything.

23†††††††††††† MR. JOSSE:† I'm not blaming the Court, with respect.

24†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† But you are right.

25†††††††††††† Mr. Lazic, I have checked, verified, with my colleagues whether

Page 21909

†1†††† there are any questions from the Bench, there aren't, which means your

†2†††† testimony ends here.† On behalf of the Trial Chamber I would like to

†3†††† thank you for your patience and for having come over to give testimony

†4†††† and on behalf of everyone we wish you a safe journey back home.

†5†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

†6†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† All right.† Now, exhibits.† Has the full list been

†7†††† circulated?

†8†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [The witness withdrew]

†9†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Popovic Defence team, Mr. Zivanovic or --

10†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Yes, I sent the list of my --

11†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, you have just two documents.

12†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Yes, this is videos.

13†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† All right.

14†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Two of them are shown to the witness, two of them

15†††† are not shown according to your --

16†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† But you are still introducing them?

17†††††††††††† MR. ZIVANOVIC:† Yeah.

18†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Okay.† Any objections?

19†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† None, Mr. President.

20††† †††††††††JUDGE AGIUS:† From the other Defence teams?† None.

21†††††††††††† So these are so admitted, and they will be given the correct

22†††† reference number later on.

23†††††††††††† Miletic Defence team, there is a whole list here going into a

24†††† page and little bit on the second.

25†††††††††††† You confirm that, Madam Faveau and Mr. Petrusic?

Page 21910

†1†††††††††††† MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

†2†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Any objections?

†3†††††††††††† MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

†4†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† No, Mr. President.† We just ask that for those

†5†††† documents for which there are no English translations, that they be

†6†††† marked for identification, please.

†7†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Marked for identification, and that's how it will

†8†††† be.† The rest are admitted -- admitted.† Okay.

†9†††††††††††† Mr. Nikolic, I don't recall you making use of documents, but do

10†††† you have any documents that you wish to tender?

11†††††††††††† MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no.

12†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

13†††††††††††† Prosecution exhibits, we have a list that has been circulated.

14†††† Any objections on the part of the Defence teams?

15†††††††††††† Yes, Ms. Faveau.

16†††††††††††† MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.† Document 3376, it

17†††† is the witness statement of Milenko Lazic.† The Prosecutor read the

18†††† relevant part of this statement and it is now on the transcript, but this

19†††† statement has not been shown to the witness and we did not see the B/C/S

20†††† version of it.† So I don't really know whether the witness has really

21†††† signed and read the statement -- whether he has checked this statement or

22†††† not.

23†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, thank you, Madam.

24††††† †††††††Yes, Mr. Thayer.

25†††††††††††† MR. THAYER:† Mr. President, this is an error.† That document

Page 21911

†1†††† is -- shouldn't be on our list.† We never received a B/C/S version of it,

†2†††† but I did read the portion in so there's no need to introduce the

†3†††† document.

†4†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yeah, but that portion is in the record.

†5†††††††††††† I previously saw you, Mr. Josse.

†6†††††††††††† MR. JOSSE:† I was going to make that exact submission.

†7†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Okay.

†8†††††††††††† All these documents minus 3376 are admitted.† Thank you.† And

†9†††† that concludes the testimony of Mr. Lazic.

10†††††††††††† Next witness.

11†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [The witness entered court]

12†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Good morning to you.

13††††††† †††††THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† And welcome to this Tribunal.† You're about to

15†††† start giving evidence.† Our Rules require that before you do so you make

16†††† a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth.† Madam Usher

17†††† is handing you now the text of the solemn declaration.† Please read it

18†††† out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

19†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20†††††††††††† I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

21†††† and nothing but the truth.

22†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.† Please make yourself comfortable.

23†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Madam Tapuskovic, who is appearing for accused

25†††† Popovic in this case, will now be asking you some questions.† She will

Page 21912

†1†††† then be followed on cross-examination by some, one or more, of the

†2†††† Defence teams, other Defence teams, and then by the Prosecution.

†3†††††††††††† Madam Tapuskovic, and if you could please introduce yourself for

†4†††† the witness.

†5†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

†6†††† Good morning to everybody else in the courtroom.

†7†††††††††††††† ††††††††††††WITNESS:† PERO MIJATOVIC

†8†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Witness answered through interpreter]

†9†††††††††††††††††††††††††† Examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:

10††††††† Q.†† [Interpretation] Sir, the Trial Chamber has already introduced me

11†††† to you, but let me repeat for the record.† My name is Mira Tapuskovic and

12†††† I am the Defence team of Mr. Vujadin Popovic.

13†††††††††††† Sir, I'd like to ask you to answer questions that I'm going to

14†††† put to you here and now.† I'm going to ask them slowly so that you can

15†††† follow the transcript on the screen.† And since you and I speak the same

16†††† language, to avoid overlapping which will create a problem in the

17†††† courtroom, both for the interpreters but especially for the exactitude of

18†††† recording what was said, I would like to ask you to follow the screen and

19†††† to see how the text appears on the screen so that you can answer properly

20†††† and slowly.† Thank you.

21†††††††††††† Could you tell us for the record your name and surname first,

22†††† please.

23††††††† A.†† My name is Pero Mijatovic.

24††††††† Q.†† Can you tell us where and when you were born.

25††††††† A.†† I was born on the 23rd of October, 1955, in Sokolac.

Page 21913

†1††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† Can you now in two or three sentences briefly tell us

†2†††† what education you have had.

†3††††††† A.†† I'm a graduate from the faculty of economics of the university in

†4†††† Sarajevo.† I graduated in 1978.† I was a regular student enrolled at that

†5†††† university.

†6††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† When you graduated from the faculty of economics,

†7†††† where did you gain employment first?† Give us a brief description of how

†8†††† you progressed professionally.

†9††††††† A.†† After graduation I started working straight away in commercial

10†††† firms, and later on I got a job in the insurance fund in Sarajevo.† And I

11†††† stayed in that institution until 1992, and when I moved to Sarajevo to

12†††† work in the agency -- in the housing agency of that same insurance fund.

13††††††† Q.†† You said that you moved there in 1992 because your job took you

14†††† there.† Can you tell us now what you did during the war in the territory

15†††† of the former Yugoslavia from 1992 to 1992 [as interpreted],

16†††† professionally speaking where did your job take you?

17††††††† A.†† I left Sarajevo at the beginning of 1992, left my job there, and

18†††† I went to Sokolac once again.† After that, when the order for

19†††† mobilisation was issued, I became activated and became a member of the

20†††† 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade, the 3rd Company of the 1st Battalion, in

21†††† fact, as an ordinary private, a soldier.

22††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† Tell me this now, please.† Up until what time were

23†††† you in the Army of Republika Srpska, what period?

24 †††††††A.†† On the 1st of November, 1993, pursuant to an agreement reached

25†††† between two ministries and pursuant to the request of the Ministry of the

Page 21914

†1†††† Interior, the need was seen for replenishment of an inspector in

†2†††† commercial crime in the public security centre of Sarajevo Birac centre.

†3†††† They asked for ten inspectors, there was an opening for ten inspectors,

†4†††† economics graduates and army members, who would put their names down in

†5†††† the competition for a job in the crime prevention centre in Osijek --

†6†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Department of crime prevention, interpreter's

†7†††† correction.† Not Osijek but crime prevention department.

†8†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I put my name forward, I passed

†9†††† all the tests, and I was accepted as an employee of the centre on the

10†††† 1st of November, 1993.

11†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† How long did you stay working in the service of the

13†††† Ministry of the Interior, up until what year?

14††††††† A.†† I worked as an inspector for commercial crime in Osijek for crime

15†††† prevention --

16†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Once again interpreter's correction:† Crime

17†††† prevention department.

18†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I then worked in Serbian Sarajevo

19†††† until the 30th of June, 2004.

20†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]† I have to intervene.† Page 45,

21†††† line 19 and page 46, line 3, it says "Osijek," which is a place in

22 ††††Croatia; and what the witness said, he said "department" or "section."

23†††† So not Osijek but "odsjek," meaning department or sector, section.

24†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you for that, Madam Tapuskovic.† Please

25†††† proceed.

Page 21915

†1†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

†2††††††† Q.†† Can you please tell us, Mr. Mijatovic, whether at some period

†3†††† during your employment within the frameworks of the Ministry of the

†4†††† Interior were engaged by this Tribunal; and if so, describe what you did

†5†††† briefly.

†6††††††† A.†† Pursuant to instructions from the Tribunal sent to the crime

†7†††† police administration in Banja Luka in 2001 or maybe 2002, I'm not quite

†8†††† sure now because it's just a few months' difference, anyway a telegram

†9†††† was sent, a dispatch was sent, requesting an experienced inspector

10†††† employed in the sector to be attached and take part in financial

11†††† investigations which were requested by the Tribunal.† I received

12†††† instructions from the administration of the crime prevention police to

13†††† place myself at the disposal of the investigators, to take part in

14†††† assisting them in financial -- conducting financial investigations.

15††††††† Q.†† Thank you.

16††††††† A.†† This lasted with several interruptions over a period of several

17†††† months.

18††††††† Q.†† Tell me, please, this kind of work, work on assignments like

19†††† that, did it require special permission or certificates of any kind, if I

20†††† can put it that way?

21††††††† A.†† The job did require, not only for me personally but for all

22†††† members of the MUP, a state examination which had to be passed and there

23†††† were other checks and training courses, lectures, and tests and

24†††† examinations, physical ones, it required a knowledge of the law and

25†††† regulations, and all legal regulations.† And once that process had been

Page 21916

†1†††† completed, of education and training and once we had been tested, a

†2†††† certificate was issued allowing us to work in the area of white collar

†3†††† crime or commercial crime.

†4†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness

†5†††† mentioned a certificate of the IPTF which was not recorded, so I'd like

†6†††† to ask him the following.

†7††††††† Q.†† Mr. Mijatovic, IPTF, is that the International Police Test Force

†8†††† from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

†9††††††† A.†† Yes.

10†††††††††††† THE INTERPRETER:† Task force, interpreter notes.

11†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† Tell us when you first became involved in this work,

13†††† or rather, you became involved in the Defence team for -- of

14†††† Vujadin Popovic?

15††††††† A.†† My involvement began on the 11th of January, 2006, on the basis

16†††† of the authorisation given me by the Defence team of Vujadin Popovic, and

17†††† that was -- that has lasted to this day, to the present day, it's

18†††† continuous.

19††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† Now, working as an investigator, can you tell us

20†††† briefly or explain to us briefly what type of material you gathered for

21†††† the requirements of the Defence team.

22††††††† A.†† It mostly involved documents from all institutions, agencies,

23†††† directorates, secretariats, courts of law, prosecutor's offices,

24†††† hospitals, hotels, and many other agencies or bodies, institutes, and so

25†††† on.† The documents received were certified copies.† In cases where no

Page 21917

†1†††† originals were available, we received certified copies thereof.

†2††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† You said that you requested some documentation from

†3†††† hotels.† Can you tell us what sort of hotels, which hotels in fact were

†4†††† involved, and what sort of documentation was sought.

†5† †††††A.†† The Fontana Hotel in Bratunac has been in a bankruptcy proceedings

†6†† since 2006 and these have not been finalised yet, and despite the status

†7†† currently held by that hotel, we managed with the assistance of the workers

†8† †still listed as hotel staff to find in the archives of the hotel and to

†9† †remove certified log-books, the so-called log-books, records of hotel

10† guests and invoices for guest stays for the months of June and July 1995.

11††††††† Q.†† You say that you approached various institutions.† Do you include

12†††† registrar's offices in that term?

13††††††† A.†† We approached registrar's offices of various municipalities, such

14†††† as the municipality of Zvornik, Vares, Bratunac, and Sokolac.

15††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† Can you tell me what the particular subject of your

16†††† interest was in seeking documentation from the registrar's offices?

17††††††† A.†† These offices provided us with marriage and death certificates

18†††† for specific individuals with a view to verifying the identities and

19†††† dates of marriage and death, the names of the individual's parents, and

20†††† the actual names of the individuals involved.

21††††††† Q.†† Did you also like -- ask for lists of individuals killed in the

22†††† conflicts raging in the area, and I'm referring to the individuals who

23†††† were killed on any of the sides, did you seek such documents from these

24†††† offices?

25††††††† A.†† From the local authorities, from the municipal authorities, that

Page 21918

†1†††† is to say from these registrar's offices in particular, we received lists

†2†††† which were in the form of documents, meaning in hard copy, and in

†3†††† electronic form of individuals killed or deceased who were of Muslim

†4†††† ethnicity.† These lists were made and kept in the Muslim-controlled

†5†††† territories.† After 1995, these lists were taken over by the authorities

†6†††† of Republika Srpska, to put it that way.

†7††††††† Q.†† You were referring to the documents that you wanted to obtain.

†8†††† In trying to obtain these documents did you get in touch with agencies --

†9†††† with these same agencies in order to obtain maps and any other similar

10†††† cartographic material?

11††††††† A.†† Among other documents, in the republican survey agency, in their

12†††† branch office in Zvornik, on our written request we received copies of

13†††† maps of cadastre municipalities of Zvornik and Sepak.

14††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† Do you recall how many such maps you obtained for the

15†††† purposes of the Defence team for Vujadin Popovic?

16††††††† A.†† We obtained five copies of maps which had plotted in them the

17†††† road where the school near Pilica was and where Branjevo was.

18†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have

19†††† document 1D1106 pulled up in e-court, please.

20††††††† Q.†† Mr. Mijatovic, while we're waiting for the document to appear on

21†††† our screens, let me tell you that we will be looking at a map now.† I

22†††† will be asking you to review the map and to tell us whether this is one

23†††† of the maps you obtained for the purposes of the Defence team.

24†††††††††††† Do you recognise the map, Mr. Mijatovic?

25††††††† A.†† Yes, I do.† This is the map of the cadastre municipality of

Page 21919

†1†††† Pilica.

†2††††††† Q.†† Thank you.

†3†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this map is on our

†4†††† 65 ter exhibit list, as are the other four maps which we will not be

†5†††† showing the witness now to save time.† They are in e-court, and let me

†6†††† tell you that their numbers are 1D1006 [as interpreted] through to

†7†††† 1D1110.

†8†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† For -- just to correct the transcript, the first

†9†††† one is not 1006, it's 1106 right through 1D1110.

10†††††††††††† Yes, let me ask you a question, Madam Tapuskovic, in proofing or

11†††† preparing this witness for this testimony, did you provide him with a

12†††† dossier of all the documents that you wish to examine him upon or do you

13†††† have a dossier that has been made available to him or not?

14†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is our intention

15†††† to speak to a great many documents through this witness; however, we

16†††† decided to opt for a shorter version of the examination of this witness

17†††† so that it will be shorter than the two hours we announced.† I would like

18†††† to use the possibility that was already applied here and that's -- okay,

19†††† thank you.

20†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† I was just trying to find out how you intend to

21†††† proceed, basically.† That's okay.† Go ahead.

22†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23††††† ††Q.†† Mr. Mijatovic, when you were obtaining these documents, did this

24†††† job require you to work only within one entity or did your job require

25†††† you to work more broadly than that?

Page 21920

†1††††††† A.†† The work I had to do could not boil down to the area of just one

†2†††† entity, it included the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, both units

†3†††† of Bosnia-Herzegovina, both entities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as

†4†††† the Republic of Serbia.

†5††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† Can you tell me what sort of contacts you had with

†6†††† centre -- with the central depot in Sarajevo, if you had any, and can you

†7†††† tell us what the central depot in Sarajevo stands for?

†8††††††† A.†† In the Presidency building there is the central depot, that's

†9†††† what we call it, but it's the archives in fact of Bosnia-Herzegovina

10†††† which houses the historical archives as well as the archives dating from

11†††† 1992 through to the period when the documentation was transferred into

12†††† electronic form sometime in 1993.

13††††††† Q.†† Thank you for this explanation.

14†††††††††††† In addition to your contacts with companies and various

15†††† institutions you enumerated for us, did you have contacts with natural

16†††† persons, with private individuals, and to what extent?

17†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Perhaps to save some time, that last archives,

19†††† can we clarify, is that a Serb archive or a Muslim archive?† It's not

20†††† clear to me, is that a Federation archive?

21†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Madam Tapuskovic.

22†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.† At the

23†††† very start of my question I said that the central depot was located --

24†††† that the archives was located in Sarajevo, in other words, it is not the

25†††† archives of Serbia but of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 21921

†1†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.† Let's proceed.

†2†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope my learned friend is

†3†††† satisfied with the answer.

†4†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Very much so.

†5†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] At any rate, it is the archive

†6†††† of the Federation.

†7††††††† Q.†† Mr. Mijatovic, please go ahead.

†8††††††† A.†† Thank you.

†9†††††††††††† I had constant contacts with natural persons, private

10†††† individuals, and in many different ways.† We needed the assistance of

11†††† individuals who were able to take us to other individuals who were in

12†††† possession of information that would be useful to us or the assistance of

13†††† individuals who had such information.† The first contacts we made were

14†††† very important in order to gain their trust and to hold initial

15†††† preliminary conversations with these individuals.† We wanted to create a

16†††† relationship of mutual trust.

17††††††† Q.†† Let me ask you something in connection with your procurement of

18†††† the material for the purposes of the Defence team.† Did you obtain

19†††† documentation from such private individuals that you then handed over to

20†††† the Defence team?

21††††††† A.†† Yes.

22††††††† Q.†† Can you tell us the form in which you received such documents?

23††††††† A.†† We received them in CDs or on CDs.† The CDs contained the

24†††† documentation we were interested in.

25 †††††††Q.†† Thank you.† Can we now please have document 1D1095 shown in

Page 21922

†1†††† e-court.

†2†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to show a

†3†††† group of documents through this one document once more in order to save

†4†††† time.

†5††††††† Q.†† Mr. Mijatovic, do you have the document on your screen?

†6††††††† A.†† Yes.

†7††††††† Q.†† Is this one of the documents you obtained from natural persons

†8†††† you came in touch with on CDs?

†9††††††† A.†† Yes.† This document was to be found on that CD.

10††††††† Q.†† Thank you.

11†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Mr. McCloskey.

12†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† I object to use of any B/C/S documents at this

13†††† time that we do not have English translations for.† This is something

14†††† we've been very easy about, but --

15†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yeah, but what we are talking about for the time

16†††† being is the provenance of these documents and provided the document is

17†††† identified by the exhibit number that they intend to give it, I think we

18†††† can move forward.

19†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† I cannot cross-examine on something I know

20†††† nothing about.

21†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yeah, but it's on provenance that we're talking

22†††† about, for the time being as I understand it.† Yeah, he is not testifying

23†††† to the contents as Judge Kwon has just put it.

24†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Mr. President, I cannot cross-examine on

25†††† provenance if I can't understand the document.† To be realistic, I don't

Page 21923

†1†††† intend to.† We tried to stipulate to all this material, but I just want

†2†††† to make very clear that this puts us in a very difficult position both on

†3†††† provenance.† If that becomes an issue, it's not so far from what they've

†4†††† told us, but they've had that three or four months, they've got resources

†5†††† to do this, this is direct, this is not re-direct.† So I hope they will

†6†††† make a better effort to get us documents that we can understand for all

†7†††† purposes.

†8†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Ms. Tapuskovic, go ahead.

†9†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Mr. President, I

10†††† would like to respond to my learned friend's comment.† We submitted quite

11†††† some time ago all of our documentation for translation to this Tribunal.

12†††† Part of the documents have been translated, some are in the system, while

13†††† others are still awaiting translation.† This is beyond the powers of the

14†††† team itself; however, I'm not going to ask the witness about the contents

15†††† of those documents or I'm not going to ask him about the author of the

16†††† documents.† We intend to use them with our military expert and now we are

17†††† dealing with provenance only.

18†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, in order to help Mr. McCloskey better, however

19†††† once we have this document on -- being shown, could you indicate which is

20†††† the identification number, the 1D number that you intend to give it, so

21†††† that least we know which one you're talking about and which group it

22†††† belongs to, like you did in the maps when you were dealing with those six

23†††† or seven maps.

24†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you for

25†††† your instruction.† When I asked for the document I stated what the number

Page 21924

†1†††† is, it is 1D1095, it is on our 65 ter list.† I am following the same

†2†††† principle.† In the third group of documents I will take one of them to be

†3†††† a representative of the others to make things shorter.

†4†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS: †Okay.† So, Mr. McCloskey, we're talking of an ABiH

†5†††† 2nd command Tuzla garrison brigade or whatever order regarding the

†6†††† formation of reserve units dated 14th June 1995.† And for the time being

†7†††† I think we can proceed.† I see no problems as long as the witness

†8†††† restricts himself, limits himself to provenance, yeah.† And of course

†9†††† they will be marked for identification pending translation.

10†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Yes, we've had these documents so that the

11†††† documents themselves are not a surprise, but, Mr. President, when these

12†††† documents are on the screen before you I -- they become something that

13†††† has more interest to me and I understand that we'll wait for them.† But

14†††† when a document goes before the Court, the Prosecution would like to have

15†††† the ability to understand it and to be able to cross-examine on it once

16†††† it's shown to the Court.† Provenance is not totally limited.† Thank you.

17†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

18†††††††† ††††Let's proceed for the time being and then we'll see.† If we have

19†††† problems we'll try to sort them out.† Yes, go ahead, Madam, go ahead with

20†††† your question.

21†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22††††††† Q.†† We will move on to a third type of document so to say.

23†††† Mr. Mijatovic, tell everyone in the court, please, whether you obtained

24†††† any photographs and whether you made any photographs yourself for the

25†††† needs of the Defence team.

Page 21925

†1†††† †††A.†† Among other documents in different forms, we also procured photo

†2†††† documentation which had to do with the buildings of the Fontana Hotel.

†3†††† We took pictures of the hotel from the rear, from the front.† We also

†4†††† took pictures of the Bratunac bus station, then photographs of sport

†5†††† halls which are adjacent to the schools in Rocevic and Kula close to

†6†††† Pilica.† Pictures were taken of the soccer pitch in Nova Kasaba as well,

†7†††† as well as of the area of Baljkovica.

†8†††† †††Q.†† Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic.† To provide reference to the Chamber as

†9†††† well as to the Prosecutor, during Mr. Babic's testimony we introduced

10†††† some of our investigator's photographs; these are 1DIC88 and 89.

11†††††††††††† Mr. Mijatovic, we will now go to another type of archival

12†††† material.† What other archives did you get in touch with in the territory

13†††† of the Federation?† When I say "other types of archives," I meant to say

14†††† in Republika Srpska as well as the Federation itself in order to obtain

15†††† documents.

16††††††† A.†† By virtue of the authorisation that we had, we turned to the

17†††† central archives in the course of this year, that is the central archives

18†††† of the Army of Republika Srpska, in the former barracks of Kozara in

19†††† Banja Luka which is in the building of the logistics unit command.† After

20†††† approval was given by the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

21†††† Sarajevo, we were also approved access that the central archives in Banja

22†††† Luka, certain members of the team were permitted to do so.† After that we

23†††† received a written notification that contained the names of individual

24†††† members and at what time they were to visit the archives of the Army of

25†††† Republika Srpska.† I believe that is its full title.† It was done so that

Page 21926

†1†††† we would be able to extract photocopies of documents pertaining to the

†2†††† 28th Division of the 2nd Corps of the Army of B&H.† We followed the rules

†3†††† that were agreed upon, we did so in writing as well as orally.† We

†4†††† visited the archives and conducted a several-day-long exercise of

†5†††† searching the documents there.† We extracted and marked certain documents

†6†††† which we believed may be of importance in the presentation of the Defence

†7†††† case.

†8††††††† Q.†† You said it was the documents of the 28th Division.† Can you tell

†9†††† us how many binders of such documents were there and did you notice

10†††† whether they were in any way marked or not?

11††††††† A. ††Upon entering the archives we found a number, some 15 binders

12†††† full of documents which were separated from the rest of the archives.

13†††† They were placed on the table of the central room of the archives.† We

14†††† were told that this was all there was that we might be interested in and

15†††† that we were free to screen the documents and mark them by markers or

16†††† self-adhesive tapes.† There is an archival term but I don't think it is

17†††† relevant right now.† And it was the first time that we realized that the

18†††† archives were actually more voluminous than we thought.

19††††††† Q.†† I will repeat the second part of my question because perhaps it

20†††† was too long.† Concerning the documents, did you mark them all in the

21†††† same way or were there any differences?

22††††††† A.†† As regards photocopies of those documents, these were quite poor,

23†††† often illegible, probably due to the poor quality of the originals

24†††† themselves.

25†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Madam Tapuskovic -- yes, sorry, please do finish.

Page 21927

†1†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those documents in their upper

†2†††† right-hand corner, depending on where the margin was, where the blank

†3†††† space was, or on the back of the document there were eight-digit RP

†4†††† numbers.† On certain documents which were originals rather than

†5†††† photocopies, the eight-digit numbers did not appear.

†6†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† I'm being asked to have the break now instead of at

†7†††† 12.30.† So we'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.† Thank you.

†8†††††††††††††††††††††††††† --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.

†9†††††††††††††††††††††††††† --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

10†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Madam Tapuskovic.

11†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12††††††† Q.†† Mr. Mijatovic, to go back to where we left off before the break,

13†††† I asked you whether you noticed that there were any different types of

14†††† mark in the documents and you told us you saw certain numbers on some of

15†††† the documents.† Did you ask for any explanation concerning the numbers

16†††† from any of the people at the archives and what they meant?

17††††††† A.†† Those who were there, present, handling the archives and who were

18†††† present during the screening of the documents were there all the time.

19†††† At a certain point when we came across those differences, we asked them

20†††† what they meant.† They told us that that documentation used to be with

21†††† the Prosecutor's office of this Tribunal and that it was returned as such

22†††† to the central archives of the Army of Republika Srpska.

23††††††† Q.†† On that occasion did you see any kind of a list of documentation

24†††† that the Tribunal may have photocopied for its needs?

25††††††† A.†† In the process of going through the archives we came across a

Page 21928

†1†††† document which stood out, it contained several pages of text.† There were

†2†††† columns with numbers of documents as well as titles.† One could see from

†3†††† the list that it was a list of all the documents which may have been the

†4†††† list of documents returned to the archives by the Prosecutor, but we were

†5†††† not sure of that.

†6††††††† Q.†† Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic.† In order to provide an illustration of

†7†††† the documents you went through and exempted out of the 15 binders, could

†8†††† we please see document 1D1029 in e-court.

†9†††††††††††† Mr. Mijatovic, can you see the document before you?

10††††††† A.†† Yes, I can.

11††††††† Q.†† Do you remember having found this document in the archives in

12†††† Banja Luka?

13††††††† A.†† Yes, I do remember having found this document that is on the

14†††† screen in the archives in Banja Luka.

15†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move to the next

16†††† page of the document.† I believe this is sufficiently enlarged for the

17†††† witness to be able to read.

18††††††† Q.†† Mr. Mijatovic, this is page 2 of the document we recalled in

19†††† e-court.† Could you please read to all of us what the second page says.

20††††††† A.†† The second page of the document says:† "This photocopy is true to

21†††† the original copy found at the archives of the Army of the VRS certified

22†††† by competent officer Brigadier Mladen Marinkovic, the 3rd of March,

23†††† 2008."† A stamp is affixed, I believe it is the stamp of the Ministry of

24†††† Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25††††††† Q.†† Could you give us an explanation regarding not the contents of

Page 21929

†1†††† the document but what the sentence you read out actually means.

†2††††† ††A.†† During the screening of documents we asked for and received the

†3†††† required documentation, all of which was certified in this way.† It

†4†††† stated that those were photocopies, the photocopies of documents

†5†††† certified by this particular body or person.

†6††††††† Q.†† All of the documents which you retrieved from the archives, did

†7†††† they all have or contain this sentence and this stamp?

†8††††††† A.†† We retrieved some 50 documents from the archives certified in

†9†††† this way.

10†††† †††Q.†† Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic.† Not all of those documents are on our

11†††† 65 ter list, only a selected few.

12†††††††††††† We will move on to different type of documents, I have in mind

13†††† paper documentation.† In your contacts, did you cooperate with certain

14†††† associations that existed during the war and did you gain some

15†††† documentation from them as well?

16††††††† A.†† During our systematic work we managed to establish contacts with,

17†††† among others, the association of the detainees of Republika Srpska, the

18†††† seat of which was in Banja Luka.

19††††††† Q.†† Tell me, please, which documents, what type of documents, did you

20†††† receive there?

21††††††† A.†† The documents were as follows:† Six CDs together with written

22†††† material on many pages, reports, and documents with other contents which

23†††† were not on the CDs but were a component part of the documents received

24†††† from the association mentioned.

25††††††† Q.†† Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic.

Page 21930

†1†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] As a reference for the

†2†††† Trial Chamber and for my colleague of the Prosecution, they were CDs on

†3†††† the 65 ter list of exhibits on the Defence of Vujadin Popovic and the

†4†††† numbers are 1D1163, ending with inclusively 1D1168.

†5†††††††††††† Your Honours, we're not going to show these videos.† Part of them

†6†††† have already been presented with the transcribed text in the course of

†7†††† Mr. Zivanovic's opening statement at the beginning of the Defence case

†8†††† itself, and a portion was shown today during the re-direct with

†9†††† Witness Lazic.† We're going to use the exhibits along with other

10†††† witnesses once they are transcribed and translated in full.

11††††††† Q.†† Mr. Mijatovic, I asked you earlier on something about how you got

12†††† documents from witnesses.† I would now like to ask you about witnesses

13†††† and how you worked with them in preparing them for this Defence case,

14†††† briefly.

15††††††† A.†† During this work in the field I contacted -- I personally

16†††† contacted over 350 individuals and I introduced myself to them, showed

17†††† them my credentials and authorisations, stated the reasons for which I

18†††† wished to contact them.† I had the opportunity after getting to know them

19†††† and introducing myself to make a preliminary arrangement, a preliminary

20†††† agreement; and then later on, once I had assessed how useful the

21†††† information they could provide me with could be, these potential

22†††† witnesses went a step further and made contact with the lead counsel of

23†††† the team.

24††††††† Q.†† Now, when you contacted the witnesses, or rather, persons who you

25†††† thought could be potential witnesses in the Vujadin Popovic Defence case,

Page 21931

†1†††† did you ever personally take any statements of any kind from any of the

†2†††† witnesses, any of these persons?

†3††††††† A.†† Having reached an agreement and pursuant to instructions from the

†4†††† lead counsel, I personally did not take written statements ever when the

†5†††† witnesses were interviewed and questioned.

†6††††††† Q.†† Can I therefore conclude that you just conducted informative

†7†††† interviews and then consulted the lead counsel?

†8†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

†9†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Leading.

10†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† It is definitely.

11†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Perhaps if she can clarify a sensitive issue.

12†††† Was he taking statements and were they only written --

13†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† I agree, Mr. McCloskey, but what can I do about it

14†††† at this time?† It's already answered.

15†††††††††††† In future, please try to avoid leading questions,

16†††† Madam Tapuskovic.† I was letting you go because there was no objections;

17†††† but the agreement is once there are objections, then you have to adjust

18†††† accordingly.

19†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.† I'll

20†††† take greater care in future most certainly.

21††††††† Q.†† I'll come to the question of statements in a minute.† But tell me

22† †††first, please, Mr. Mijatovic, whether during the course of your work you

23†††† took part in gathering information and data for any operative actions

24†††† which could have had significance or could have significance for the

25†††† Defence.

Page 21932

†1††††††† A.†† In the course of my work, through the secretariat of the

†2†††† Government of Republika Srpska in Banja Luka, we did manage to contact

†3†††† the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the previous

†4†††† Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska there were files or a file, a

†5†††† dossier, which had the title, the operative title, of Kum.

†6††††††† Q.†† Thank you.† We'll talk about that operative action titled Kum,

†7†††† but I kindly ask you not to mention any names because, as you say, it was

†8†††† an operative action so we don't want to put anybody into a difficult

†9†††† situation.

10†††††††††††† Anyway, can you remember how many documents you managed to access

11†††† on this Kum operation?

12†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† One moment.

13†††† ††††††††Mr. McCloskey.

14†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† I'd object to that instruction.† Of course I'm

15†††† not sure exactly what he means, but names are of course a key part of any

16†††† investigation.† We don't want any protected witnesses mentioned, of

17†††† course, but as for names where he is getting material that is an

18†††† instruction that I think needs to be clarified.

19†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Trial Chamber confers]

20†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† We agree with Mr. McCloskey on this.† You need to

21†††† give us some basic idea what this Operation Kum was and how can it be

22†††† identified later on when we make reference to it or to documents

23†††† recovered under that scheme.

24†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.† That

25†††† operation was mentioned in the proceedings so far, and in that connection

Page 21933

†1†††† Witness 1PV168 was mentioned too or 1PW, but I wanted to safe-guard the

†2†††† identity of that person.† But never mind, we can continue in this way

†3†††† too.† PW-168 for the transcript.† Thank you.

†4†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

†5†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Could we go into private session for a minute?

†6†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, for sure.

†7†††††††††††† Let's go into private session, please.

†8†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Private session]

†9†† (redacted)

10†† (redacted)

11†† (redacted)

12†† (redacted)

13†† (redacted)

14†† (redacted)

15†† (redacted)

16†† (redacted)

17†† (redacted)

18†† (redacted)

19†† (redacted)

20†† (redacted)

21†† (redacted)

22†† (redacted)

23†† (redacted)

24†† (redacted)

25†† (redacted)

Page 21934











11 Pages 21934-21935 redacted. Private session.















Page 21936

†1† †(redacted)

†2†† (redacted)

†3†† (redacted)

†4††††††††††††† †††††††††††††[Open session]

†5†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† We are back in open session, Madam.

†6†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

†7††††††† Q.†† Tell me, please, in talking to the witnesses did you meet

†8†††† Mr. Veljko Ivanovic and Boris Dragan?

†9††††††† A.†† Jovic Dragan did you mean?† Pursuant to instructions from lead

10†††† counsel I found the witnesses and came into contact with them, that is to

11†††† say, Dragan Jovic and Veljko Ivanovic, I contacted them.† I held

12†††† preliminary talks with them and told them about the establishment of

13†††† identity and so on, and they signed a document saying that they

14†††† voluntarily, of their own free will, accepted being our witnesses.

15††††††† Q.†† Do you know whether they had already testified before this

16†††† Trial Chamber before perhaps?

17††††††† A.†† They -- well, after I talked to them to gain information and

18†††† provide them with information, sometime later they came into contact with

19†††† the investigators of the Tribunal, of the OTP, they contacted them and

20†††† that was at the police station in Kozluk in order to conduct an

21†††† interview.

22††††††† Q.†† Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic.

23†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for a moment I'd

24†††† just like to go back into private session if I may because I want to show

25†††† the witness another document.

Page 21937

†1†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Let's go back to private session, please.

†2†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Private session]

†3†† (redacted)

†4†† (redacted)

†5†† (redacted)

†6†† (redacted)

†7†† (redacted)

†8†† (redacted)

†9†† (redacted)

10†† (redacted)

11†† (redacted)

12†† (redacted)

13†† (redacted)

14†† (redacted)

15†† (redacted)

16†† (redacted)

17†† (redacted)

18†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Open session]

19†† ††††††††††MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20††††††† Q.†† In your investigative work, Mr. Mijatovic, did you come by

21†††† information to the effect that some foreign nationals had been

22†††† participants of these events in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23††††††† A.†† In the area of the Zvornik municipality through the contacts with

24†††† Sladjan Jokic we learned that during the war a sabotage -- a

25†††† reconnaissance platoon of the Drina Wolves comprised two young men who

Page 21938

†1†††† were Polish nationals and who were reputed to be good fighters.

†2††††††† Q.†† What other information did you obtain, do you perhaps recall

†3†††† their names?

†4††††††† A.†† One of them is Mieczyslaw Szulinski and the other is

†5†††† Andrzej Ciesnowski.† In some places he was recorded as Andrzej and others

†6†††† as Andrej, but there you have it.

†7††††††† Q.†† Do you happen to know where they ended up at the end of that war?

†8††††††† A.†† Mieczyslaw Szulinski got killed in the Croatian offensive at the

†9†††† Ostrelj pass, therefore, during offensive combat activities of the

10†††† Croatian army.† The other individual survived the war and he stayed

11†††† behind in Zvornik.† He had very modest lodgings there, just a room, and

12†††† he engaged in different farm work and helped citizens chop wood and so

13†††† on.† Subsequently, he was interviewed in Tuzla.† He was asked about

14†††† residence papers and stuff like that, and at the end of this he left to

15†††† the territory of Republika Srpska.

16††††††† Q.†† Can you tell me how you came to know that this other individual,

17†††† Mieczyslaw, whatever his name is, that he got killed?

18††††††† A.†† His brother in arms, so to speak, who was able to communicate

19†††† with him in English took me personally to the Karakaj town cemetery,

20†††† where among others his commander too had been buried.† They were part of

21†††† a very small unit, and I believe one out of three was either killed or

22†††† wounded.† They had great losses.† He took me to see the tombstone where

23 ††††the name of Mieczyslaw Szulinski was written in the same cemetery.† He

24†††† took me to see that tombstone himself.

25††††††† Q.†† Do you have any record of you having been there?

Page 21939

†1††††††† A.†† In the course of the day we made photographs of the tombstone and

†2†††† I believe you can find the photographs in the documentation.

†3††††††† Q.†† In order to obtain information about the two Poles, did you

†4†††† address formally any of the bodies or was it simply through your

†5†††† conversations with several individuals including this one person you

†6†††† mentioned?

†7††††††† A.†† We have a great deal more information about the person who

†8†††† survived, Andrzej, since through Interpol and through the crime police

†9†††† administration in Banja Luka a dispatch arrived at the public security

10†††† station in Zvornik with a view to verifying the identity of this

11†††† Andrzej --

12†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

13†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Could we get the exhibit number of the

14†††† photographs we're referring -- he's referring to.

15†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Madam.

16†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we didn't place

17†††† these photographs on the list.† We simply wanted to present a story about

18†††† other individuals participating in these events and this was to be my

19†††† last question in my examination of this witness.

20†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Then you don't intend to present these photos?

21†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

22 ††††††††††††JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

23†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Mr. President, we've never heard anything about a

24†††† lot of what he's testified about.† All we were told is that he was going

25†††† to talk about documents.† I haven't objected until now, until we got into

Page 21940

†1†††† this long story about, of course, what we all remember the Polish folks

†2†††† in the intercept.† There is a document on Mr. Bourgon's list related to

†3†††† the Polish folks, but I would hope that perhaps when we do break if

†4†††† there's more information coming out of this witness from either people

†5†††† that decide to bring evidence out from him that they would tell us about

†6†††† it.

†7†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Okay.† Thank you.

†8†††††††††††† Yes, Madam Tapuskovic, do you have any further questions?

†9†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

10†††† questions for the witness.† We have the photographs but did not tender

11†††† them.† I've completed my examination-in-chief.† We can, of course, show

12†††† the photographs if the Trial Chamber wishes us to.

13†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

14†††††††††††† Mr. Ostojic, do you intend to cross-examine this witness?

15†††††††††††† MR. OSTOJIC:† We do not, Mr. President.

16††† †††††††††JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

17†††††††††††† I understand Mr. Bourgon or Ms. Nikolic wish to cross-examine

18†††† this witness.† Go ahead.

19†††††††††††† MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20†††††††††††††††††††††††††† Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

21††††††† Q.†† [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mijatovic.

22††††††† A.†† Good afternoon.

23††††††† Q.†† Before I put some questions to you on the topic we discussed --

24†††† you discussed last, I would like to let the Trial Chamber know something

25†††† about the list concerning the Polish volunteers.† These were Prosecution

Page 21941

†1†††† exhibits that had long been admitted into evidence in this case.

†2†††† However, I will not be using them in my cross-examination of this

†3†††† witness.† I will have only one question for Mr. Mijatovic.

†4†††††††††††† Mr. Mijatovic, in your investigations did you get any

†5†††† confirmation about what the fate of one of the survivors of the

†6†††† Drina Wolves was, Mr. -- namely Mr. Andrzej Ciesnowski?

†7††††††† A.†† From the Zvornik public security station following a written

†8†††† request of ours, we received a copy of a dispatch from the crime police

†9†††† administration in Banja Luka in which Interpol was addressing that MUP

10†††† unit with the intention of verifying the one period of life spent by that

11†††† individual in Zvornik.† Sometime during 2002 or thereabouts the Swiss

12†††† border police had a vehicle which he used on his way to Poland and which

13†††† apparently contained a certain amount of drugs.

14††††††† Q.†† Thank you.

15†††††††††††† MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.† I have no

16†††† further questions of this witness.

17†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

18†††††††††††† Mr. Lazarevic.

19†††††††††††† MR. LAZAREVIC:† Thank you, Your Honour.† No cross-examination for

20†††† this witness.

21†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Ms. Faveau.

22†††††††††††† MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no questions, Your Honour.

23†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Merci, Madam.

24†††††††††††† Mr. Krgovic.

25†††††††††††† MR. KRGOVIC:† There is no cross-examination for this witness,

Page 21942

†1†††† Your Honour.

†2†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

†3†††††††††††† Mr. Sarapa.

†4†††††††††††† MR. SARAPA:† No, no questions.

†5†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Thank you.

†6†††††††††††† Mr. McCloskey.

†7†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Thank you, Mr. President.

†8†††††††††††††††††††††††††† Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

†9††††††† Q.†† Good afternoon, sir.

10††††††† A.†† Good afternoon.

11††††††† Q.†† Either prior to looking into the Polish volunteers issue or

12†††† during, did you happen to review the intercepts between -- that the

13†††† Prosecution has alleged are between Drago Nikolic and Vujadin Popovic

14†††† regarding Polish folks?

15††††††† A.†† In the course of these activities I didn't have either the

16†††† occasion or the need or an order to look into the intercepts you

17†††† mentioned.

18††††††† Q.†† I didn't say look into but I just said read.† Did you read that

19†††† intercept?

20††††††† A.†† I didn't.

21††††††† Q.†† How about the document I believe it was from the Drina Corps to

22†††† the Zvornik Brigade, perhaps vice versa, that mentions the names of the

23†††† two Polish folks that were the subject of the Zvornik Brigade

24†††† conscription.† Did you look at that document?

25††††††† A.†† I didn't see that document.† I'm not acquainted with that at all.

Page 21943

†1††††††† Q.†† Did anyone tell you about that intercept?† Perhaps I'll -- to

†2†††† refresh your recollection, it's -- briefly discusses Drago Nikolic

†3†††† appears to be concerned about these Polish intercepts and suggests about

†4†††† slitting their throats and throwing them in the Drina, and Popovic says

†5†††† something about, No, don't do that, let's get them in a unit somewhere,

†6†††† something to that effect?

†7†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

†8†††††††††††† MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is

†9†††† entirely beyond the scope of the examination.† The investigator never

10†††† read any such intercepts and cannot answer any questions about them nor

11†††† is it down to the Prosecutor to present contents of the intercepts to the

12†††† witness while interpreting them at the same time.

13†††††††††††††††††††††††††† [Trial Chamber confers]

14†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS: †All right.† The question in itself was harmless,

15†††† but you went beyond the question, Mr. McCloskey.† So let's proceed,

16†††† please.

17†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:

18††††††† Q.†† Taking into account the documents and the intercept I've outlined

19†† ††for you, did anybody talk to you or tell you about those things in your

20†††† investigation?

21††††††† A.†† The answer will be the same as to the previous three questions.

22†††† I didn't have either the occasion to or the need to do that nor was I

23† †††told to do that in the course of my activities aimed at obtaining

24†††† documents.† I wasn't told to do that either in writing or orally as I was

25†††† doing that part of my work.

Page 21944

†1††††††† Q.†† How did you know who to go look for when you were looking into

†2†††† the Polish conscript thing?

†3††††††† A.†† The investigation did not start or depart from the intercepts

†4†††† that you've referred to.† My investigation departed from a different

†5†††† direction, the person who fought with them, Sladjan Jokic provided me

†6†††† with the basic information and facts, and he helped me take that

†7†††† investigation through to the end.

†8††††††† Q.†† So you're saying you learned of these two guys' name through

†9†††† Sladjan Jokic, not through any of your attorneys, investigators, or any

10†††† study of the documents in this case?

11††††††† A.†† With or without that, the town itself is privy to the story about

12†††† these two individuals, everybody knows about one of them having been

13†††† killed and buried there.† This piece of information could have come from

14†††† anyone in that town.

15††††††† Q.†† What direction did you receive from the legal team regarding this

16†††† investigation into the Polish folks?

17††††††† A.†† They were usual instructions.† I was to find out whether these

18†††† fighters were, indeed, there and under those names and I was to find out

19†††† whether there were some other individuals who could tell us more about

20†††† these individuals and who knew about members of the Drina Wolves.

21††††††† Q.†† The documents you got from the Hotel Fontana, did they indicate

22†††† that Vujadin Popovic had spent the night there in July any time 1995?

23††††††† A.†† The documents existed.† I didn't go into the contents of the

24†††† documents.† The important thing was that the documents dated from the

25†††† month of July 1995 and that they related to that particular lodging.† I

Page 21945

†1†††† didn't have any need to go into the contents of the documents to be able

†2†††† to answer your question.

†3†††† †††Q.†† Who did on the team?

†4††††††† A.†† Probably the lead counsel.

†5††††††† Q.†† Can you describe to me everything you know, everything you

†6†††† remember, about those documents.† You've obviously seen them.† Precisely

†7†††† describe to me what they were as far as you can recall.

†8†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, one moment.

†9†††††††††††† Ms. Tapuskovic.

10†††††††††††† MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said

11†††† that he did not go into the gist of the documents, and I believe since

12†††† the witness said that he didn't know anything about it this would be

13†††† calling for speculation on his part.† In his testimony in chief he said

14†††† that he came by the documentation in relation to the months of June and

15†††† July, so he could be asked about that process.† I don't think the

16†††† question as it was put was appropriate for the witness.

17†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Not going through the content, that is one thing;

18†††† knowing the subject matter of the document is another.† So provided the

19†††† question is restricted to that, it's perfectly legitimate.

20†††††††††††† So you collected these documents.† You're not aware of or you're

21†††† not familiar with the contents as such, with the details of these

22†††† documents.† But I assume you know what they were about because I don't

23†††† think your function or your task was to collect documents at random

24†††† whatever they were.† You were seeking certain documents.† So given that,

25†††† I think you can answer this question, as far as you can recall of course

Page 21946

†1†††† obviously.

†2†††††††††††† THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The matter is of a technical

†3†††† nature.† I had to know which documents we needed for which period and

†4†††† from which part of the archives, whether it came down to the treasury,

†5†††† account keeping, ledgers, and stuff like that. In the course of my work

†6†††† on removing these documents, I established that for the month of July

†7†††† 1995, according to the statements from the hotel staff, somebody, and

†8†††† they donít know who, had taken away the books relating to the month of

†9†††† July with the assistance of the Bratunac police station. †That happened

10†††† several years earlier.† These documents were nowhere to be found among

11†††† the files of the hotel.† However, the hotel staff, the treasurer, the

12†††† bookkeeper, and others managed to obtain copies of these documents from

13†††† other sources; these were invoices, log-books, books recording local and

14†††† foreign hotel guests.† It was thanks to this that we still managed to

15†††† collect everything we needed to obtain and everything they had found.

16†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:

17††††††† Q.†† Did you have a chance to see the Hotel Fontana documents that

18†††† were seized from the Bratunac Brigade by the OTP and that are an exhibit

19†††† in this case?† Basically it says who was paying what for what days in

20†††† July, Momir Nikolic is buying coffee, other things.

21††††††† A.†† The only thing I was told was that somewhere in their

22†††† documentation there should exist a receipt against the seizure of the

23†††† documents in order for them to be able to know which of the documents had

24†††† been seized.† As they were not able to find that receipt, they could not

25†††† establish which documentation was missing.† It should have been sorted

Page 21947

†1†††† out in chronological order by months, that's why we were unable to know

†2†††† what type of documents these were or how many there were.† Of course,

†3†††† needless to say, we couldn't tell which body or entity had taken them

†4†††† away to begin with.

†5††††††† Q.†† My question was:† Did you have a chance to see the records, the

†6†††† old records that are of the Bratunac -- of the Hotel Fontana that we have

†7†††† in this case before you went off to look for records with the

†8†††† Hotel Fontana so you could compare and see if they were copies or same or

†9†††† different?† Normal police work.

10††††††† A.†† I understand the question.† Before I got to the archives, I was

11†††† not able to know what the documents I'm -- what the documents I'm looking

12†††† for look like in order to recognise them immediately.† I didn't know the

13†††† author of the documents or the -- who the documents related to.† It was

14†††† only when I entered the premises of the Fontana Hotel that I came in

15†††† touch with the archives and with this issue of seized documents that had

16†††† to be located.

17††††††† Q.†† Does the investigative team still have those documents that you

18†††† saw from the Hotel Fontana archives?

19††††††† A.†† This happened in mid-2006, if I understand your question

20†††† correctly.† The documents we took can be found in our documentation.† We

21†††† have non-certified photocopies.

22††††††† Q.†† So you photocopied the stuff that was in the archives?

23††††††† A.†† Yes.† At one point I asked that their authenticity be certified

24†††† as well.† I was unable to obtain that because of the status of the hotel,

25†††† the fact that it's in bankruptcy at the moment.

Page 21948

†1††††††† Q.†† Yeah, that's a shame.† One last question:† Who did you get them

†2†††† from?

†3††††††† A.†† The head bookkeeper, the treasurer, and an individual who is a

†4†††† waiter but does all other sorts of stuff as well; and all these three

†5†††† individuals are still listed as the hotel staff.

†6††††††† Q.†† I meant the names but perhaps you can think about the names and I

†7†††† can ask on Monday.

†8†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† Yes, thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

†9†††††††††††† We'll stop here for today.† We'll resume Monday morning at 9.00.

10†††† Thank you.

11†††††††††††† MR. McCLOSKEY:† Mr. President, perhaps he doesn't need it but for

12†††† his sake as well as ours ...

13†††††††††††† JUDGE AGIUS:† It's important, Witness, that between now and

14†††† Monday you do not communicate with anyone on the subject matter of your

15†††† testimony, that includes of course your employers, the Defence team of

16†††† the accused Popovic.

17†††††††††††† Before we close, before we adjourn, Mr. Ostojic, on behalf of the

18†††† Trial Chamber I would like you to convey to Mr. Meek, who's now left us,

19†††† our sincere wishes to him for his career and also to express our

20†††† gratitude for the cooperation that he's always shown with the

21†††† Trial Chamber and the conduct of the defence of your client.† We wish him

22†††† well and I'm sure that you will convey these messages to him.† Thank you.

23†††††††††††††††††††††††††† --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

24†††††††††††††††††††††††††† to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of

25†††††††††††††††††††††††††† June, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.