Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22103

1 Wednesday, 11 June 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Madam Registrar. And good

6 afternoon, everyone. Could you call the case, please, ma'am.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. All the accused are here.

10 From the Defence teams I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon,

11 Mr. Haynes. I think that's about it.

12 Prosecution, we have present Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls and

13 Mr. Thayer.

14 I understand, Mr. Zivanovic, that you have what has been

15 described to us as a small preliminary.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, that's correct, Your Honours. Good

17 afternoon.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Everything is relative actually.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I just like to inform Trial Chamber and parties

20 that we have just two more witnesses for this week. It is likely that it

21 both of them could complete their testimonies today. Our inability to

22 fill the gap derives from some administrative visa problems, lack of

23 translation of two reports of our experts and for most reduced estimates

24 both for examination-in-chief and cross-examination. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand you to say that two, which means Zoran

Page 22104

1 Radosavljevic and Drago Cvoric and not counting --

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and not counting also Mr. Bjelanovic.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no, not counting Mr. Bjelanovic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: For those two we had 3 and a half and 3 and a half

6 hours, six -- seven hours. By how much have their time been reduced? By

7 how much?

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe that our direct will last for at least

9 one hour for each of them.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's two hours. And Prosecution, I can

11 only -- I haven't got it up here. And Prosecution, how much time do you

12 estimate? Mr. Thayer?

13 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President. I think for

14 Mr. Radosavljevic, we may have reduced it to about 20 minutes for cross.

15 For Mr. Cvoric I think we are at about an hour to an hour and a half but

16 it may be significantly less, depending.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go and then we'll see. Then

18 we'll see. But in any case, thank you for informing us, and what we

19 would like you to avoid, all of you, in the future is indicating a time

20 for the in chief, for the direct, and for cross which in your heart of

21 hearts you know will probably be unrealistic. I can understand that

22 tactically, sometimes it pays you to ask for more in case you need that

23 time. I can understand that. But on the other hand, it creates

24 problems. Because it has happened with each and every witness that we

25 have had so far. And please don't forget that we have got

Page 22105

1 responsibilities. Anyway, let's start and see where we get. Let's bring

2 in Mr. Bjelanovic, please. How much more time do you have to finish with

3 this witness?

4 MR. NICHOLLS: I think less than ten minutes, Your Honour, maybe

5 five minutes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good afternoon to you, Mr. Bjelanovic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, we are going to continue with your testimony

11 today. Mr. Nicholls will take it up from where he left it yesterday and

12 then we see whether we have further questions for you. Mr. Nicholls?

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. Could we have 197 up,

14 please?


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

18 Q. Witness, what I'm going to show you now is a Drina Corps vehicle

19 log for the month of July 1995, 1st to the 31st of July 1995. If we

20 could start with page 1. Now, this is for a Golf, and you can see there,

21 Witness, that we have the rank and full name of driver/user in the first

22 box, and there we have Dusan Vucetic as driver and Lieutenant Colonel

23 Vujadin Popovic as the user, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you didn't remember the colour of the Golf that Popovic used

Page 22106

1 during this period. If I remind you that it was blue in colour, does

2 that help you remember, dark blue?

3 A. There was a white Golf and a blue Golf in the Drina Corps. I

4 can't remember exactly which he was using.

5 Q. All right.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls, my attention has been drawn by my

7 colleague, Judge Kwon, that the 65 ter number relative to this witness is

8 missing from the transcript, if you could -- if you could mention it,

9 please.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much, Your Honours, this is 65 ter

11 number 197.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Thank you, Judge Kwon.


14 Q. Does this help you remember? As we can see right on this

15 document that Dusan Vucetic was assigned to drive Colonel Popovic.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is again misrepresentation of the contents of

18 this document.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bjelanovic, do you understand English?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I ask you to remove your headphones for a

22 while, please?

23 Can you be more specific, Mr. Zivanovic, please?

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. This document just shows who

25 drove this car in month of July, not who was driver to whom.

Page 22107

1 JUDGE AGIUS: At the top of the page, I don't know, I will let

2 Mr. Nicholls answer that --

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I think the document speaks for

4 itself. I'm using it to try to remind the witness. It says in my

5 translation, rank and full name of driver/user.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. That's what we have in English.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: I think we can move on.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And in Serbian it is in Cyrillic so I don't know.

9 Yes?

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is said in B/C/S [interpretation]

11 "Driver/operator" rather than user.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Anyway, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not in a position to comment on that.

14 Obviously, I can't --

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Let's go to page 2, please, of the B/C/S and the

16 English.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. But according to, operator in relation

18 to a car would be who? Who would be the operator?

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Both of them could drive this car. It means that

20 it doesn't show that Mr. Vucetic drove Mr. Popovic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a dash, not a slash there. That's okay.

22 Okay. Thank you for your observation.

23 He can put on -- yes, Mr. Nicholls.


25 Q. In any event, Witness, having seen this document, does it spark

Page 22108

1 your memory at all as to whether Vucetic was driving Popovic?

2 A. As far as the document goes, it would seem so.

3 Q. Okay. Let's go to page -- let's go to page -- let's leave it.

4 I'm done with that document. Thank you.

5 Now, different topic. You talked yesterday about the timing of

6 the handover ceremony and you said it was around noon or a little after;

7 remember that?

8 A. Around noon. I don't remember exactly but I think it was around

9 noon.

10 Q. Okay. You don't remember exactly. I want to see if I can help

11 you remember. There has been a lot of evidence about the time of that

12 ceremony. For example, Mladic was at the ceremony, correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And Zivanovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We have evidence in this case that at around 1400 hours, Mladic

17 was in -- at Sandici meadow giving a speech to Muslim prisoners. That's

18 from P 02853, pages 58 to 59 in the English, that's a statement of

19 Mr. Borovcanin. So we know Mladic at 2 p.m. was far away from Vlasenica.

20 There is another witness, PW-109, who was with Krstic all day that day of

21 the ceremony and he recalls arriving at Vlasenica at around 1800 hours

22 and the ceremony commencing thereafter. Now, this is July, it stays

23 light late. Think carefully. That ceremony was in the evening, wasn't

24 it? It's possible?

25 A. I cannot remember precisely, after so much time. In any case, I

Page 22109

1 know it was that day. I know it was in Vlasenica. As for the morning or

2 the afternoon, I don't know. I thought it was around noon. I can't tell

3 you anything else precisely. I can provide an additional explanation by

4 your leave concerning what I said yesterday. I made a mistake concerning

5 my arrival in Vlasenica and concerning Vlasenica itself. It has to do

6 with the date you asked me about. I felt a bit under pressure and I

7 didn't provide you with the accuratest of information. I can't remember,

8 after so much time, whether it was in the afternoon or in the morning. A

9 lot of years have gone by. I cannot remember -- I can remember it was

10 during the day.

11 Q. Now, I want to talk very briefly about the next day, which is the

12 day you went to Zepa, okay? And you say you saw Popovic there in the

13 morning. Again, there is a lot of --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic. Sorry, Mr. Nicholls. Go ahead.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is a misstatement. The witness has never said

16 that he saw Popovic in the morning.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

18 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll have to check the transcript.

19 Q. But in any event, the next day you stated that you saw --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.


22 Q. -- that you saw Popovic at Zepa. We have in this case, as with

23 the ceremony, a lot of evidence, some of it uncontested, by Mr. Popovic's

24 counsel, that on that day, Popovic, in the afternoon, in the morning

25 around noon and into the afternoon, led a convoy of prisoners from

Page 22110

1 Bratunac through Konjevic Polje towards Zvornik and then to the Orahovac

2 school. We have other witnesses who on that day, in the afternoon -- the

3 first Witness was PW-138 at transcript reference 3837 to 3851, another

4 witness saw Popovic there in the afternoon about an hour after the

5 prisoners arrived. This is the same day you were in Zepa. You've had

6 problems with dates and times. I want you to think carefully. You were

7 in Zepa for a long time. You saw Popovic on a different day, didn't you,

8 not that first day that you arrived?

9 A. I didn't see Mr. Popovic in Zepa. It was before Zepa, at the

10 IKM. In Zepa, at the time, it was the Muslims who were there, their

11 forces. We were not in Zepa at all.

12 Q. You're right. I misspoke. I'm talking about the time you say

13 you saw Popovic at the IKM. That wasn't the first day you arrived

14 because we know he was in Orahovac that day. You made a mistake about

15 that, didn't you? Maybe you saw him at the IKM a different day.

16 A. I cannot remember precisely whether it was on the first or the

17 second day but I did see him when I arrived at the IKM. Whether it was

18 that day, the first day, or the second day, I couldn't tell you.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Nothing further now. Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

21 Is there re-examination, Mr. Zivanovic?

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, just one short question to the witness. And

23 I'd like to show him one document. It is not at our Rule 65 ter list but

24 it arises from the cross-examination of the witness and documents shown

25 to him regarding Hotel Fontana and his staying at the Hotel Fontana. I'd

Page 22111

1 like the usher to show it to the witness this document.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is it in e-court? It's not in e-court, I

3 suppose.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's not in either.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's put it on the ELMO, please.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we know what it is, Your Honour? We haven't

7 had any notice.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Let's -- we'll see it soon.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Can I just ask if there is a translation?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a translation of it, Mr. Zivanovic?

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have not had this document translated.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I was looking at the document. Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, since it a short document and I can't

14 read it, I was wonder if we could have the interpreters just read it out

15 so I know what it is before the questions are asked.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The way we do it is Mr. Zivanovic will read it out

17 and the interpreters will translate.



20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The header says VP military post

21 7042 Bratunac.

22 Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

23 Q. Mr. Bjelanovic, could you please tell us what does VP stand for?

24 A. It means military post, 7042 Bratunac. That is the Bratunac

25 Brigade.

Page 22112

1 Q. Date, the 11th of July 1995. Then HUTRO Podrinje, Hotel Fontana,

2 Bratunac. The below-mentioned persons are granted permission to make use

3 of a room in the Fontana Hotel between the 11th and the 13th of July

4 1995. Under number 1, Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic from Vlasenica.

5 Total number of people on the list, 1. Signed by commander Colonel

6 Vidoje Blagojevic. Have I read it out correctly?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell us briefly, according to this document, since you cannot

9 know that, but according to the document, can we conclude that

10 Mr. Popovic was granted permission to stay in the hotel between the 11th

11 and the 13th of July 1995?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 Mr. Bjelanovic, we've come to the end of your testimony. I wish

16 to thank you on behalf of everyone of the Trial Chamber for having come

17 over to give testimony here and I also wish you a safe journey back home.

18 Our staff will now give you the assistance you require to return home at

19 the earliest.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, exhibits?

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No exhibits.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Not even this one?

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll give this exhibit, sorry. But I have no --

Page 22113

1 I have no still number of 1D.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah but you intend --

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- to? So it's marked for identification until

5 properly translated and you will give it a number, Madam. Any

6 objections?

7 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour. We want that exhibit to come in

8 but I would like -- it's not on his 65 ter list. I'm assuming this is

9 one of the documents from the Hotel Fontana that Pero Mijatovic talked

10 about that they -- during his direct, which is not on their 65 ter list.

11 Is that where this is from?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. It could be from the army. Yes,

13 Mr. Zivanovic?

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: These documents are not at our Rule 65 ter list,

15 that's correct.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. Where did it come from?

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: From the investigation of our investigator,

18 Mr. Pero Mijatovic.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but is it part of the documents he recovered

20 from Hotel Fontana or is it part of the documents he recovered from

21 elsewhere?

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: From Hotel Fontana.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: From Hotel Fontana?


25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

Page 22114

1 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. No objection. So admitted and marked

3 for identification, as we said. Do you have any documents yourself,

4 Mr. Nicholls, for tendering?

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. 65 -- some of the documents are

6 already in that I used. The ones -- the now ones which should go in are

7 65 ter 197, 3398, and 3399.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Any objections?

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Other Defence teams? No objection?

11 And these are all translated, aren't they?

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, 3399 is not translated. That should

13 be marked for identification. Sorry, that's the list.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It will be marked for identification.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: And can I have one moment?


17 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honours, regarding Mr. Zivanovic's

18 exhibit, we can see that that is relevant material. Mr. McCloskey made

19 an oral motion for access to that. We will be pursuing that. I would

20 like an order that that material seized from the Hotel Fontana be kept,

21 not be destroyed or given away and that it be kept by the Defence team

22 until the issue of whether or not we should have access to it has been

23 resolved, so that were we to prevail on that motion, it wouldn't be

24 frustrated.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Do you wish to comment on that,

Page 22115

1 Mr. Zivanovic?

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have no original of these documents at all. I

3 just have copies, but of course, I'll not destroy it. It's in my

4 interest to keep.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But there should be a measure of control. This is

6 what Mr. Nicholls is actually suggesting or aiming at.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: I would request an order, Judge, formally because

8 it is --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want it formally, please then formulate it

10 formally in writing because I think it requires more attention than just

11 a few --

12 MR. NICHOLLS: I understand. I just mean all I would request now

13 is an oral order formally that the material be preserved, whether it's

14 originals, copies, whatever.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Josse?

16 MR. JOSSE: My only observation is where is the power, say the

17 Prosecution, for the Trial Chamber to make the order requested. The

18 Trial Chamber may have the power but perhaps we could be directed to it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Under 54 we can always issue an injunction. So

20 Mr. Zivanovic, yes, do you wish to comment?

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no, thank you, I have said everything that I

22 want.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. Then you are being instructed by

24 the Trial Chamber not to destroy any of these documents or dispose of any

25 of these documents until further orders.

Page 22116


2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 Next witness, Zoran Radosavljevic.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You're here to give evidence, you've been summoned

8 for that purpose by the Defence team of Colonel Vujadin Popovic. Before

9 you start your testimony, our rules require that you make a solemn

10 declaration that's equivalent to an oath, that you will be testifying the

11 truth. Madam Usher is going to hand you the text of the solemn

12 declaration. Please read it out aloud and that will be your undertaking

13 with us.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself

19 comfortable.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You're going to be asked a series of questions,

22 first by the Defence team that summoned you and later on we see who will

23 be cross-examining you.

24 Mr. Zivanovic, if you could introduce yourself with the witness,

25 please.

Page 22117

1 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Radosavljevic, my name is Zoran Zivanovic. I

3 would kindly ask you to state your full name for the record.

4 A. My name is Zoran Radosavljevic.

5 Q. Can you tell us your age?

6 A. I was born in 1957, in Loznica. I'm 52.

7 Q. What about your educational background?

8 A. I completed elementary, secondary and higher education, and I am

9 a lawyer by profession.

10 Q. Mr. Radosavljevic, where do you currently reside and since when?

11 A. I was born on the 13th of May 1957 in Loznica, but I reside in

12 Donja Pilica in Zvornik municipality.

13 Q. Since when?

14 A. Since I was born. I have never moved out of the place.

15 Q. Did you serve in the army?

16 A. No. I did not. I never served in the army.

17 Q. How come?

18 A. For health reasons. I had a kidney surgery before my time came

19 to be conscripted.

20 Q. And during the war, were you mobilised?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Where were you during the war in Bosnia?

23 A. I was in my family house, with my family. That's where I lived.

24 I didn't go anywhere from there.

25 Q. Can you describe the location of your family house?

Page 22118

1 A. My family house is 100 metres from the culture hall in Pilica, in

2 the very centre of Donja Pilica, on the main road.

3 Q. Is this in the direction of Bijeljina or in the direction of

4 Zvornik?

5 A. It is on the Bijeljina-Zvornik road, on the main road. My house

6 is right there on that road.

7 Q. When you say a hundred metres from the culture hall, is it

8 towards Zvornik or towards Bijeljina?

9 A. As you go from Bijeljina towards Zvornik. I apologise. My house

10 is before the culture hall, so from my house you go towards the centre

11 and it is a hundred metres from the centre.

12 Q. Do you know whether during the war, certain detainees were

13 brought to Pilica and when was that?

14 A. In 1992, there was one group and they were there for a very short

15 time, and I suppose that they were exchanged after that.

16 Q. And were there any detainees after that, after 1992?

17 A. There were some in 1995 but I learned about that only

18 subsequently from my father. He told me that that happened because on

19 that particular date, I wasn't there. I only heard it subsequently from

20 my father that they were housed in the cultural hall.

21 Q. Did you ever hear of some detainees who were not housed in the

22 culture hall but elsewhere?

23 A. Yes, I did. The detainees were kept in the elementary school

24 near Kula.

25 Q. How did you learn about the last group of detainees?

Page 22119

1 A. In 1995, I was working in a company in Serbia, and I commuted to

2 Loznica every day. On the 14th of July, when I returned home, and my

3 house also houses a pub which is run by my parents, Petrovic Pero and

4 Cviko Milovanovic were waiting for me there and they suggested that we

5 should go to the elementary school because they had heard that some

6 people had been brought there.

7 Shall I continue? On that day, on the 14th of July, I returned

8 home around 6.00 and I found the two of them waiting for me. After we

9 had had a drink and after I had dinner, they suggested that together with

10 the two of them I should go to the elementary school. We went there, the

11 three of us, in my car, and on that day, in front of the elementary

12 school, near Kula, I found several buses, and on those buses there were

13 people seated, and the buses were on the road from Pilica to Bare but

14 they were facing Zvornik. I did not linger there too long, maybe 15 or

15 20 minutes all together, because I saw some soldiers there whom I didn't

16 know. In other words, I did not know any of those soldiers who were

17 present there. I came to -- up to some 30 metres away from the school.

18 I couldn't go any further because of the buses that were on the road, and

19 from that distance of 30 metres, I could see about ten buses. There were

20 not more than ten and not less than seven. I did not count them but

21 according to my estimate, that was the number of the buses that I saw on

22 that day.

23 Q. And now I would kindly ask you to clarify a few things. First

24 you mentioned two men, Pero Petrovic and Cviko Milovanovic. Who was Pero

25 Petrovic, whom you mentioned as one of the persons waiting for you in

Page 22120

1 that pub of yours?

2 A. Pero Petrovic was the president of the commission for war

3 conditions. Since our president Diko Micic, who was elected by people

4 had left the area and went abroad, his position was filled by Pero

5 Petrovic but nobody ever elected Pero Petrovic. He was just appointed to

6 be the president of the local commune.

7 Q. And who was Cviko Milovanovic?

8 A. At the time he was the local postman. His office was next to

9 Pero Petrovic's office, and they socialised during the war years. Every

10 morning they would have coffee together.

11 Q. Where were those two offices?

12 A. The offices of the local commune and the local post office are

13 next door to each other within the premises of the culture hall or the

14 youth hall, whatever you want to call it.

15 Q. Can you please tell me what would be the distance between the

16 Kula school, where you went, from the pub, from your house, that is?

17 A. The elementary school is three kilometres away from Kula.

18 Q. You said that in front of the school you saw a certain number of

19 buses. Could you please give me some more details?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls? Mr. Thayer?

21 MR. THAYER: We all look alike, I know, Mr. President.

22 The -- I just wanted to correct something I think I see for the

23 record. The question was, can you please tell me what would be the

24 distance between the Kula school from the pub, and his answer was the

25 elementary school is three kilometres away from Kula. I just think that

Page 22121

1 calls for some clarification.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I repeat my question.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. It's his answer that is not clear.

5 It wasn't your question.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. My question was as follows: What is the distance between your

8 pub where you had met with the two men from the school in Kula?

9 A. From my house to the elementary school, the distance is 3 and a

10 half kilometres.

11 Q. Thank you. Could you please describe in some more detail those

12 people whom you saw on the buses that were parked in front of the school?

13 A. As far as I could notice, there were as many people on the buses

14 as could be seated. I could not see anybody standing. The buses were

15 not overcrowded. Everybody had a seat.

16 Q. Among the people on the buses, were there any children?

17 A. No. There were just people whose ages ranged between 20 and 70,

18 approximately.

19 Q. And they were only men?

20 A. Yes, only men. I did not notice a single woman.

21 Q. Tell me, please, was your impression or, rather, what was your

22 view of the reason for these buses being there?

23 A. The buses were in such a position that it seemed to me that they

24 were ready to leave any moment. Everybody was seated. Nobody was

25 getting off those buses. So my impression was that they were getting

Page 22122

1 ready to leave any moment.

2 Q. Do you know -- did you ever enter the school in Kula, not only on

3 that day but any time before? Are you aware of the layout of the school?

4 A. I completed the elementary education in that school, and I'm very

5 familiar with the layout of the school.

6 Q. You say that you were some 30 metres away from school. Did you

7 see anybody in the school from that position?

8 A. From the position where I was, I could not see anybody in the

9 school itself. The school is above the road on an elevation above the

10 road, so from the position where I was standing, I could not see any

11 better.

12 Q. Could you see the windows of the school?

13 A. Of course.

14 Q. What rooms could you see?

15 A. You could see both floors, the ground floor and the first floor.

16 You could see the windows but you could not see the inside of the class

17 rooms in the school.

18 Q. On the windows, did you see any people?

19 A. No. On that occasion, I did not see a single person.

20 Q. Were the windows opened or closed?

21 A. They were closed. It was during the school break. There were no

22 students there so the school was closed. There was no need for the

23 school to be open.

24 Q. Did you enter the school?

25 A. No, I did not. Not on that day.

Page 22123

1 Q. And what about your two friends with whom you had come? Did they

2 enter the school?

3 A. As far as Cviko Milovanovic is concerned, he was standing

4 together with me. And Pero Petrovic went somewhere and I can't be sure

5 of where he went.

6 Q. How long did you stay there?

7 A. I've already told you that I was there no longer than 20 minutes.

8 Q. Did you leave the place on your own or did you leave with the

9 other two?

10 A. A bit later, before I left, Pero Petrovic returned and told us

11 that he was supposed to make coffee or tea for the troops and that I was

12 free to go. So I turned around together with Cviko and we went home.

13 Q. Where did you go?

14 A. I went home, to my family house.

15 Q. Did you spend the night there?

16 A. Of course, yes, with my family. The following day was weekend.

17 I was off work.

18 Q. So how long did you stay at home?

19 A. Until the 15th around noon. A courier came, his name is Bosko

20 Ostojic, he was sent by Pero Petrovic, asking me to come and guard the

21 elementary school. He told me on that occasion to get myself a gun, a

22 rifle, and to report at the school and to guard the school. Since I was

23 not a military conscript, I did not see it necessary for me to obey that

24 order. I got into the car and I went to Loznica. So I did not obey that

25 order. I did not respond to that invitation, in other words. I called

Page 22124

1 my family from Loznica asking them to join me, and then I left Loznica.

2 Q. How long did you stay in Loznica?

3 A. Until the end of the month, some 16 or 17 days. I don't know

4 exactly.

5 Q. In your house in Pilica, did you have a telephone?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you use it? Was it working at the time?

8 A. The telephone was installed in 1988 and it worked with some minor

9 interruptions when there was no electricity but throughout the war, it

10 functioned and I was paying my subscription all the time. On the day

11 when I went to Serbia, I called my wife asking her to get ready to take

12 some money and some necessities and asked her to join me because we would

13 be leaving from Loznica and I remember that that telephone was working.

14 Q. So your family left at the same time as you did?

15 A. No. My family joined me a bit later. I called my wife from

16 Loznica. I sent a relative of mine to fetch them in a car, and then they

17 returned together, they joined me, in Loznica, and from there we went

18 further on to Vrnjacka Banja but that was on the same day, on the 15th.

19 We were joined on the same day and we went further afield.

20 Q. Pero Petrovic, as the president of the local commune or the

21 president of that commission, as you called him, did he have any

22 authority to issue any orders to you to the effect that you should come

23 and guard the school?

24 A. I don't know what his authorities were but I am sure that he

25 could issue orders since he had a courier, and it was my belief that I

Page 22125

1 was not supposed to obey any orders from him because I was not a military

2 conscript.

3 Q. At the time, did you have any weapons?

4 A. No, I did not have any weapons. I was never issued with any

5 military weapons because I was never a military conscript so a rifle was

6 never issued to me.

7 Q. Did he give you any idea as to how you were supposed to guard the

8 school, since you were not a military conscript, you did not have any

9 military equipment, no weapons?

10 A. I suppose he would have given it to me if I had responded to the

11 call but since I never did, I don't know how to answer your question. I

12 don't know how I was supposed to guard the school.

13 Q. Tell me, please, did you know that next to the school in Kula

14 there were also some other prisoners in the culture hall in Pilica?

15 A. On the day when I left, I didn't know. However, when I returned,

16 my father told me that he had bought bread and taken it to that place.

17 Either on the day when I left or the day after. That's how I learned

18 that the prisoners were also there.

19 Q. Did you ever find out when it was exactly when the prisoners had

20 been brought to the school in Kula, at what time of day? You mentioned

21 the date but do you also have any information from any party or side as

22 to when it was that they arrived, what time of day?

23 A. I heard it on the 14th from Pero that they had arrived, and when

24 I returned, I heard that they had arrived on the 14th and that some buses

25 had lost their way and missed Pilica and only returned only two hours

Page 22126

1 later. I heard that only later on, that there were buses that had missed

2 Pilica and went in the direction of Bijeljina and returned an hour or two

3 hours later.

4 Q. When you say "miss," was that somebody's estimate that they

5 missed their target or what?

6 A. I suppose that they must have had a destination and that they

7 missed it since they went further afield and then returned to Pilica.

8 Q. Did you ever hear later on that somebody had guarded the

9 prisoners? Did you learn of anybody guarding the prisoners, either in

10 the culture hall or in the school?

11 A. When I returned, I heard that the prisoners had been guarded by

12 people from Srebrenica or Bratunac. In any case, it was the case of

13 people from other areas, because I did not recognise any of the troops

14 that I saw in front of the school. Those people had come from somewhere

15 else.

16 Q. And later on, did you learn from somebody, from a source of any

17 kind, about somebody whom you know who participated in the guarding of

18 the prisoners?

19 A. Yes. Recently, I've learned from my former teacher, Rajko Babic.

20 I was surprised to hear that it was him together with some two or three

21 elderly men who were in the school and that they were in charge of

22 installing order. He even told me that there was no electricity, that

23 there were no problems however but he told me only recently and I was

24 really surprised to hear that he was in the school with these two other

25 men.

Page 22127

1 Q. Did he tell you in which room those prisoners were placed?

2 A. He said that, first, they were placed in the hall but because of

3 the heat they were transferred to the classrooms, probably so that they

4 could breathe more easily and to have more space, and of course it was

5 easier to guard them that way.

6 Q. Since you lived in Pilica for a long time, did you hear that some

7 prisoners were killed in Pilica or in its surroundings?

8 A. When I returned from Serbia, after being away for 15 or 16 days,

9 I heard that some people were taken to Branjevo and executed there. Of

10 course, that's only what I heard.

11 Q. Can you tell us what is the distance between the Kula school and

12 Branjevo or the place where the prisoners were executed?

13 A. I never measured it but it shouldn't be more than four and a half

14 kilometres.

15 Q. During that time, how could one get from the Kula school to the

16 Branjevo farm?

17 A. Then, as now, one could use two roads. There is an old road

18 between the school and Branjevo, which is in a rather poor condition and

19 difficult to navigate, and then there is another road which is a tarmac

20 road. It is somewhat longer in distance but not much.

21 Q. We heard a piece of information according to which the distance

22 between the Kula school and the place where they were shot, that is

23 Branjevo, should be some ten kilometres. Having heard that, would you

24 still stand by what you said, since you did not measure the distance

25 precisely?

Page 22128

1 A. It cannot be ten kilometres. That would be twice the distance,

2 4.5 times 2, and even then it would be 9 kilometres. I was born there

3 and I grew up there. Daily, for years, I moved about the area, and it

4 could not be ten kilometres.

5 Q. I would kindly ask you to look at some maps depicting the Kula

6 school and Branjevo. Please have a look at those and I would kindly ask

7 to you identify the main features. It is 1D1106.

8 There is a small problem. The original of this map bears road

9 markings in different colours but here we cannot see it at all. Could we

10 please place a hard copy on the ELMO, since we can then see the colours?

11 Could we please go down so that we could see the title? Go up,

12 then. Yes.

13 Could you please read out the title?

14 A. "Pilica 12, Sepak 2, cadastre region Pilica 12, Sepak 2."

15 Q. Please zoom in on the upper right-hand corner.

16 A. It will be difficult to read.

17 Q. Perhaps you will be able to read from the screen.

18 A. The length of the old road, that was the first item. The second

19 item, the length of the new road. And the third item is the length at

20 which the new road towards Zvornik and Bijeljina branches off to the old

21 road between Zvornik and Bijeljina in the length of 90 metres.

22 Q. Does it mean that the blue is the length the old road between

23 Zvornik and Bijeljina?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it reads that it's 720 metres there.

Page 22129

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then we have the distance --

3 A. The new road, Zvornik-Bijeljina.

4 Q. The distance being?

5 A. 60 metres.

6 Q. The third --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers please not overlap.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I believe the third item is brown or yellowish.

10 A. The distance from the point where the old road joins the new road

11 in the distance of ...

12 Q. On this map?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you see any features there?

15 A. I can indicate, if it is of any help. [Indicates].

16 Q. It is the hall?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop. I refrained. I was very

18 patient. But the interpreters have been drawing your attention all along

19 that you've been overlapping. Please, please allow one to finish and

20 have the interpreters finish their job before you proceed with your next

21 question or answer.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, take a look on previous page and

24 check whether there is anything missing in particular in relation to

25 distance.

Page 22130

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shortest distance is not marked

2 on the map that I have.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you please repeat what the distance is of the shortcut in

5 yellow?

6 A. The shortcut is 90 metres from the main road, the new road, as it

7 joins the old road, it's just this part here. It's not the complete old

8 road, the dirt road. This is a shortcut. The complete road would be in

9 this area. And I don't have any pencils with me to indicate it. Maybe a

10 pointer would do.

11 Q. Please put it in a circle.

12 A. I can indicate this portion.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Please, would the speakers not overlap? Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, please, please, please, please.

16 Mr. Radosavljevic, before you start speaking, allow a short pause because

17 what Mr. Zivanovic would be saying has to be translated to us into

18 English and French. If you speak while the translation is still going

19 on, the interpreters cannot catch up with you. So allow a short interval

20 of time, a short pause, between question and answer, both of you, and the

21 same applies to you Mr. Zivanovic, because you're doing the same thing.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll be careful, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You said so a minute and a half ago.


25 Q. [Interpretation] Please, there marking of yours, would you place

Page 22131

1 1 next to it?

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. I would ask you next to indicate the side road, the dirt road

4 marked in blue, and place 2 next to it.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Next, the asphalt road. Mark it with a 3.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. On this map, can you see where the farm at Branjevo is?

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. You've marked it with a 4.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you see the school in Kula on the map?

13 A. I don't but I see the road leading to it. Here it is. That

14 would be 5, if you want me to mark it. [Marks].

15 Q. Please do so and place an arrow pointing in the direction of the

16 school.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Let us have a look at something else next.

19 The next map is 1D1107.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I take it that we have finished with this map?


22 JUDGE AGIUS: Then he needs to sign it and date it, please.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, please sign the map.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 22132

1 Q. Before that, can you indicate where the hall in Pilica is? Place

2 a 6 next to it.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Please sign the map and indicate today's date. Anywhere.

5 A. What is the date today?

6 Q. The 11th of June.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. This is another map. On it, can you see the intersection where

9 the two roads branch, the dirt road and the asphalt road?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Please mark that with a 1.

12 A. I'm placing number 1 next to the asphalt road. [Marks].

13 Q. And I see you're putting the number 2 next to the dirt road.

14 A. Precisely. [Marks].

15 Q. On this map, can you see the school?

16 A. I don't see it.

17 Q. Very well. Please could we see the upper right-hand side corner?

18 Does it say anything there?

19 A. Janja. Sheet of detail, 6 K 21-B 2."

20 Q. Very well. Please sign the map and indicate today's date.

21 JUDGE KWON: For the record is this map 1D1107?

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

24 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, perhaps to save a couple of cross

25 questions while we have this map up, if could did I ask a little

Page 22133

1 information about relative dates of production of these two maps. I just

2 noticed on 1106 we could see the housing development plots that were put

3 on the Branjevo farm area. The second map 1107 doesn't indicate that nor

4 does it indicate one of the roads which had been pointed out by the

5 witness when he was referring to 1106, so if we could just have that

6 information, please?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic? I suppose you can put the

8 questions yourself.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. I think that the date is at the bottom of

10 these maps. There is -- I can't see it right now. I'll check it, Your

11 Honour. I cannot say it right now.

12 It is aerial -- it is aerial from 1961.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it from the cadastre or not?

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it from the cadastre or not? Because it if it

16 is from the cadastre, it has to be dated.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, the original from land registry or from B

18 and H and it has the stamp of this institution but I cannot see the date,

19 the exact dates. I have to check it.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We can do nothing about it right now, Mr. Thayer.

21 It has to be checked and then Mr. Zivanovic will let us know.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Let's look at 1D1108. That's another map.

24 Can we look at the upper right corner? There is a text there.

25 A. Cadastre municipality Pilica, Kula, Pilica, 2007, 110.

Page 22134

1 Q. What colour is that?

2 A. It is orange.

3 Q. Very well.

4 A. The length of the old macadam road, Bijeljina Zvornik, 460 metres

5 so under number 2, this is 460, the length of the new Zvornik-Bijeljina

6 road, 600 metres. Under 3, 600 metres.

7 Q. Thank you. Kindly look at the map to see whether you can see the

8 Kula school there.

9 JUDGE KWON: Before that, could we zoom up the bottom part, which

10 says stereo photo, something like that, 1961, GOD. What does it mean,

11 the left part? The bottom part. The stereo photo, we can zoom up using

12 the e-court, but --

13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: These are data from 1961, as far as I understand

14 it.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Are these roads and everything you have marked, did they exist in

18 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please mark the school in Kula, if you can see it?

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. You put number 1 next to it, did you not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And now can you please sign this map as well and put today's date

25 on it?

Page 22135

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radosavljevic. I have no further questions for

3 you?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

5 Now let's do the round. Mr. Ostojic?

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, no questions for this

7 witness.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Nikolic?

9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. No

10 questions for this witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Lazarevic?

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: No questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Fauveau?

14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau.

16 Mr. Krgovic?

17 MR. KRGOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President, no questions for this

18 witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Sarapa?

20 MR. SARAPA: Mr. President, no questions for this witness.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Thayer? Do you want to break now?

22 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'm prepared to proceed but maybe if

23 we broke a little early I could whittle down the cross further.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Break is in seven minutes' time in any case.

25 Break, 25 minutes.

Page 22136

1 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

4 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

6 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. My name is Nelson Thayer and I'll be asking you just a few

9 questions on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor.

10 A. Very well, then.

11 Q. You recall testifying as a Defence witness in the Blagojevic and

12 Jokic case, do you not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Do you recall testifying that on the 14th of July, when

15 you had you encountered Pero Petrovic, that he told you, I think as you

16 testified today, that he didn't have all the information about what was

17 going to happen with these prisoners that were supposed to be coming to

18 the school but that he'd heard something from a woman?

19 A. Yes. I remember. When I arrived home around 6.00 in the

20 evening, he told me that he had heard some people had been brought in but

21 he didn't know what was going on and that's why he asked me to take him

22 there, to the school. I remember that.

23 Q. And so my question to you, sir, is: Do you recall what he said

24 about this conversation he had with this woman?

25 A. No, I don't know what the conversation was about. She was not

Page 22137

1 there. She -- he only said, "I heard from some woman that some people

2 had been brought there. Shall we go to the school?" And I said, "Yes,

3 sure."

4 Q. Okay. And when you got to the school, you testified today that

5 there were troops there, soldiers. Do you recall anything particular

6 about the uniforms that they were wearing?

7 A. There was nothing extraordinary. They wore normal uniforms that

8 were customary at the time. The only thing that I remember is that I did

9 not recognise any single person. There was nothing else out of the

10 ordinary that I noticed on those soldiers.

11 Q. How about the belts they were wearing, sir? Do you recall

12 anything in particular about the belts that some of those soldiers were

13 wearing?

14 A. I already told at other cases that I may have noticed one white

15 belt, but that was nothing out of the ordinary under the circumstances.

16 Not all of them had white belts but some might have.

17 Q. Well, sir, let me just follow up on that with you. There was a

18 question put to you, and this is at the transcript page 12059 of the

19 Blagojevic trial and I want to be absolutely fair with you, sir. I'm

20 just going to read the question and your answer and just tell the Trial

21 Chamber what your best recollection is today. You testified that, "As

22 far as I could tell and count, there were between 20 to 30 soldiers, they

23 were not anybody I knew or had seen before." The next question was,

24 "Were they wearing white belts?" And your answer was, "I wasn't able to

25 see that. They were all kinds. Some were wearing the white belts and

Page 22138

1 some were without."

2 So my question is, as you sit here today, what's your best

3 recollection as to whether or not you saw some of those soldiers wearing

4 white belts on the 14th of July.

5 A. As I sit here today, I hear what I said in my previous testimony

6 and I stick to that. This is correct. It was exactly as I've already

7 stated which means I confirm my previous words. As you know, our

8 uniforms were of all kinds. They were not of one and the same kind.

9 There were different kinds of armies and militaries in that area. There

10 were some 20 or 30 soldiers whom I didn't know and they wore uniforms

11 that were customary at the time. And that would be my answer to you.

12 Q. Now, you testified today that on the 15th of July, when the

13 courier arrived with the instruction or order, however you want to

14 characterise it, from Pero Petrovic, to get a weapon and proceed to the

15 school, that you called your wife or that you first got in your car and

16 went to your work in Serbia; is that correct? Just want to make sure

17 I've got the sequence of events.

18 A. No. Maybe it has been misinterpreted. When Pero Petrovic's

19 courier came to tell me that I was supposed to go and guard the school, I

20 did not obey that order. I got into the car and I left, which means I

21 did not respond positively to that call. I hope I made myself clear now.

22 Q. I understood that part, sir. My question was, you immediately

23 went to your place of work after getting that instruction?

24 A. As soon as I got the call, I knew immediately that I wouldn't do

25 what I was asked. I got into the car and went to Loznica. Loznica is

Page 22139

1 the place where I worked. And that place is some 7 kilometres away from

2 the place where I lived so it took me some 10 to 15 minutes to get there.

3 And then when I was in Loznica, I used a relative's telephone to call my

4 family who joined me an hour or two later. To answer your question,

5 then, no, I did not respond positively to that call. I did not obey that

6 order. I just left.

7 Q. Now, you testified today that you told your wife and -- I believe

8 to bring your children with her, is that correct, to meet you in Serbia?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I think you have testified previously that you told her to

11 pack things, what to bring, and you told her that you were going to be

12 over there for some period of time; is that correct, sir?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And eventually you went to -- and forgive me pronunciation,

15 Vrnjacka Banja?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that's in Serbia, correct?

18 A. Yes, in Serbia.

19 Q. And how far is that from Pilica?

20 A. 250 to 300 kilometres, but I did not leave without my family. I

21 waited for my family to rejoin me in Loznica and once they arrived, they

22 went all together.

23 Q. Sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber why you disobeyed that order

24 and gathered up your family and fled to Serbia for that period of time?

25 A. As I've already told you, I am not a military conscript. I am

Page 22140

1 under no obligation to be in the army. So I did not think that I was

2 supposed to obey Pero's order and go and guard the school with a rifle.

3 As a sensible man, I could have expected things that would be happening

4 in the school. As a sensible man, all I could do was to gather my family

5 and go as far away from the school as possible. That would be my answer.

6 Q. Well, sir, as a sensible man, what did you expect would be

7 happening in the school that caused you to flee with your family and

8 disobey that order or instruction from Mr. Petrovic?

9 [Technical difficulty]

10 A. Everybody understands that on under the circumstances of war,

11 what can be assumed if somebody tells you take a rifle and go guard

12 somebody who is incarcerated in a school, you may expect that there would

13 be incidents. Up to then, I never participated in any wars, in any army,

14 and that's why I fully believe that on that particular occasion it was

15 not my call to go and guard some school and my primary concern was for

16 the safety of my family and my own safety. That's why I didn't go to the

17 school.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, and Mr. Thayer, while the witness

19 continued to answer the question, it transpired that we had some

20 technical problem and that the first part of his answer is missing from

21 the transcript. It probably was recorded but we don't have it in the

22 transcript. So what would you like us to do?

23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I can simply ask the question again.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Radosavljevic, we are going to put

25 the question again to you, for no other reason except that we had a

Page 22141

1 technical problem and that the first part of your answer is missing from

2 the transcript. So be patient with us, please, and try to answer the

3 question.

4 The question was, "Well, sir, as a sensible man, what did you

5 expect would be happening in the school that caused you to flee with your

6 family and disobey that order or instruction from Mr. Petrovic?"

7 Could you answer the question again?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, I'll try. As a serious,

9 reasonable family man, being aware of the situation, I could only assume

10 that there might be an incident or a development that would put myself

11 and those around me in a position to use the rifle that I might be

12 carrying. In order to avoid any such position, in order to avoid putting

13 myself in that position possibly, I did what I did.


15 Q. Sir, let me just read to you what your answer was to a similar

16 question in the Blagojevic trial. This is at page 12066, beginning at

17 line 13 of that transcript.

18 "As Pero had told me to find a rifle and to come and guard the

19 camp, I didn't want to get blood on my hands. I was afraid I might

20 become a war criminal myself. And as I had managed to stay out of that

21 up to that point, I wanted to go on like that."

22 Isn't that the reason, sir, that you didn't want to participate

23 in what you thought would be a mass execution of those prisoners?

24 A. What I said just before the things that you're reading out to me

25 is the same thing, only in a somewhat milder form. Of course, I expected

Page 22142

1 all sorts of things could happen, even to the point of me becoming a war

2 criminal. So what I said then, and what I said now, is one and the same

3 thing. Only today I used a somewhat milder form of expression for what

4 essentially is the same thing.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Mr. Zivanovic, do you have

7 redirect?

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just one question, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

10 Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Radosavljevic, when you got to the school

12 and saw the troops that were in front of the school, did you see among

13 them somebody with officer's patches, a senior officer?

14 A. No, I did not see anybody wearing an officer's patches.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 Mr. Radosavljevic, we don't have any further questions for you,

18 which means you're free to go. Our staff will assist you. Thank you

19 very much for having come over to give testimony in this trial. And on

20 behalf of everyone, may I wish you a safe journey back home.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, any exhibits? Of course, you have

24 the maps.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just five maps -- three maps shown to the

Page 22143

1 witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Three or more than three? How many were there?

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe three or four. They are in e-court --

4 in court documents.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any objection?

6 MR. THAYER: No objection, Your Honour. I just renew my request

7 to get some more information from the team.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: On the date.

9 MR. THAYER: Give than we clearly see what happened after the war

10 to that area. And that's represented in one of the maps, that's all.

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We shall translate the text, at the bottom of the

12 maps and show it to the Prosecution.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection on the part of any of the other

14 Defence teams? None. So these maps are admitted. I think there were --

15 the marked ones, but he did mark --

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As far as I know, he marked three maps.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, the -- only those marked, okay.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, just marked.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, the -- only those.


21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Thayer?

22 MR. THAYER: No exhibits from the Prosecution, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let's move to the next witness. How do

24 you pronounce his name? Cvoric?

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

Page 22144

1 I'm going to be leading the next witness whose name is Drago Cvoric.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Cvoric. Thank you.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Cvoric.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You've been summoned

7 as a witness for the Defence of Colonel Vujadin Popovic. Before you

8 start your testimony, you are required under our rules to make a solemn

9 declaration that you will be testifying the truth. The text is being

10 handed to you. Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn

11 undertaking with us.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you so much. Please make

17 yourself comfortable. You are now going to be asked a series of

18 questions by the Defence team of Vujadin Popovic and then we see what

19 happens next.

20 Madam Tapuskovic, if could you introduce yourself to the witness,

21 please? Thank you.

22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:

24 Q. Mr. Cvoric, good afternoon.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 22145

1 Q. For the record, I'm going to introduce myself, my name is Mira

2 Tapuskovic and I am a member of Mr. Vujadin Popovic's Defence team.

3 Mr. Cvoric, since we speak the same language, in order to avoid

4 any misunderstandings and errors in the record, I would kindly ask you to

5 speak slowly and wait for me to finish the question before you start

6 answering it. Did you understand me?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Cvoric, where and when were you born?

9 A. I was born on the 16th of August 1947 in Dunajevic village,

10 Zivinice municipality.

11 Q. Is that in the -- in Republika Srpska or in the Federation?

12 A. This is in the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. Tell me something about your professional and educational

14 background.

15 A. I am a machinist, I completed a secondary school.

16 Q. Did you during any period of your time serve in the then JNA?

17 A. I served my regular military duty.

18 Q. When and where?

19 A. It was in 1968 and 1969, I completed the school for reserve

20 officers in Bileca in infantry. That was towards the end of March when I

21 completed.

22 Q. Did you get a rank?

23 A. I was a Sergeant and then I went to Kosovo, Prizren, where I

24 completed my military service and that's when I was given the rank of a

25 second lieutenant.

Page 22146

1 Q. Mr. Cvoric, do you currently work?

2 A. No, I'm retired.

3 Q. Before you were retired, where did you work?

4 A. When I returned from the JNA, I was unemployed, so I joined the

5 police.

6 Q. How long did you remain in the then Secretariat of the Interior?

7 A. From 15 November 1969 to the 1st of September 1991, and that's

8 when I was retired at my own request.

9 Q. Mr. Cvoric, do you know Vujadin Popovic?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. And now we will talk about the developments which took place on

12 the eve of the war. In the first half of 1992, when war broke out, where

13 were you?

14 A. On the 13th of May 1992, I left my house in Zivinice and I went

15 via Tuzla and Majevica to Lopare. That's where my brother works as a

16 policeman and I temporarily settled with him together with my wife.

17 Q. What was the reason for you to leave Zivinice, your place of

18 residence, and go to Lopare?

19 A. The reason was the fact that the Patriotic League, the Green

20 Berets, Muslims, started arming themselves and there was nothing for me

21 to wait for.

22 Q. And where was it that they started arming themselves?

23 A. In Zivinice.

24 Q. What was the national composition of the place where you resided

25 before you left?

Page 22147

1 A. According to the last census of 1990 --

2 Q. Please wait for the end of my question.

3 A. I apologise.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. May I?

6 Q. Yes, please.

7 A. According to the 1991 census, there were 6 per cent Serbs, 7 per

8 cent Croats and the rest were Muslims, and there were certain numbers of

9 Roma.

10 Q. We are already talking about 1992. When you arrived in Lopare

11 were you mobilised?

12 A. Yes, I was mobilised for a month as a member of the reserve

13 strength of the police.

14 Q. Why only a month?

15 A. I was living with my brother. His apartment was very small.

16 There was his family, there was my wife and myself, so I looked to go

17 somewhere else, so I went to Zvornik.

18 Q. Under what condition did you go to Zvornik and when was it?

19 A. I heard it on the media that there was room for displaced persons

20 and refugees in Zvornik, and that's why we left. And that was sometime

21 around the beginning of July. My wife and myself went to Zvornik. We

22 reported to the commissariat for refugees and displaced persons and they

23 gave us accommodation.

24 Q. That was in the summer of 1992. Did you then join the armed

25 forces?

Page 22148

1 A. I did.

2 Q. Please give us some details on how you joined the armed forces.

3 A. After I was displaced, I took some documents with me such as my

4 ID and my military booklet. And when we were received by the

5 commissariat, I went to the Secretariat of National Defence and

6 registered myself.

7 Q. Can you recall the date?

8 A. The 21st of July 1992.

9 Q. How come you know the date precisely?

10 A. Because in my military booklet, the date I joined the VRS was

11 entered and also the day I left it.

12 Q. Again, I have to caution you to pause and wait for the

13 transcript.

14 Once you joined the VRS, what was your military specialty and

15 what was your deployment?

16 A. My military specialty is infantry. I forget what the number of

17 the specialty is. I don't think it is important. I was deployed to the

18 brigade command in Zvornik. I left and reported to their personnel

19 office.

20 Q. When you arrived there in July 1992, tell us who was the

21 then-commander of the Zvornik Brigade?

22 A. Lieutenant Colonel Milutin Bosancic.

23 Q. Was he a professional officer?

24 A. Yes. He used to be, but before the war he was retired,

25 immediately before the war.

Page 22149

1 Q. Since you said you arrived in the command of the Zvornik Brigade,

2 what was your function, your job?

3 A. I was appointed an officer of the military security service.

4 Q. What was your position in relation to the commander?

5 A. I was assigned to the 1st Infantry Battalion in Petkovci. That's

6 where I performed my duties for a while.

7 Q. Were you assistant commander for security?

8 A. Yes, for that battalion.

9 Q. What battalion was it? What was its name?

10 A. It was the 1st Infantry Battalion.

11 Q. Tell us who commanded the 1st Infantry Battalion at the time of

12 your arrival.

13 A. At the time of my arrival, it was Captain First Class Savo

14 Dragojlovic.

15 Q. Where was the 1st Battalion's command?

16 A. The command was in Petkovci village. It is a local commune, in

17 their community hall.

18 Q. Thank you. During your service with the VRS, did you spend all

19 that time with the same battalion, the same unit?

20 A. No. I did not stay with the battalion throughout that period. I

21 was assigned to different battalions as was needed.

22 Q. You told us you worked in the field of military security. In

23 order to perform such duties, did one need certain professional knowledge

24 in that respect?

25 A. In 1972, towards late October or early November, the Secretariat

Page 22150

1 for National Defence sent me to a one-month course for a security officer

2 to Pancevo, to the military post there. That's where I completed that

3 course.

4 Q. How is it that you remember exactly when it was?

5 A. You can find that in my military booklet as well.

6 Q. Do you know when it was that you were demobilised?

7 A. From the VRS?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. On the 29th of February 1996. That is in the booklet as well.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cvoric, I would like to focus on a short interval

11 of time, and I would kindly ask you to tell me where you were in the

12 summer of 1992 and up to the summer next year.

13 A. As was needed, and per brigade commander's orders, I was in

14 several battalions. If I need to specify, I can tell you. I was with

15 the 7th Battalion Kitovnica, then with the 10th Battalion, and by the end

16 of 1993, I was with the 6th Battalion which was subsequently renamed the

17 Drinjaca Battalion.

18 Q. During your service with the VRS, did you ever participate or

19 take part in active combat?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. Mr. Cvoric, can you perhaps recall the date when Srebrenica fell?

22 A. I do. It was around the 11th of July 1995.

23 Q. What do you base your recollection on?

24 A. At that time, I was on leave for certain reasons. My wife had a

25 spine injury and I was given a few days of leave by the brigade

Page 22151

1 commander. I believe it was a fortnight. When that took place, my

2 commander called me on the phone and told me that Srebrenica had fallen.

3 He called me home.

4 Q. So you were there all along?

5 A. While the operation was ongoing, I was at home, assisting my

6 wife.

7 Q. You're trying to say that you were on leave, taking care of your

8 wife?

9 A. Precisely so.

10 Q. On the occasion when you were told that Srebrenica had fallen,

11 who told you that exactly?

12 A. Ratko [as interpreted] Petrovic, my battalion commander, he gave

13 me a call and told me that.

14 Q. Your Honours, I would like to clarify something. Page 48, line

15 24, Radika Petrovic. That is the battalion commander's name.

16 During the telephone conversation, did your battalion commander

17 give you any other information?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you ask him if there was anything else that was new or

20 important in relation to that event?

21 A. I didn't ask him anything in that regard.

22 Q. Thank you. After the leave you had been given to take care of

23 your wife, when was it that you returned again to work?

24 A. I believe, I cannot be precise, but it was around the 13th or the

25 14th of July.

Page 22152

1 Q. Do you recall the first day of your return as of any

2 significance?

3 A. Upon my arrival at the battalion command, we went to the front

4 lines, we visited the soldiers, and stayed there for a while.

5 Q. You say "we" went to the front lines. Could you be more specific

6 and tell us who it was exactly? Who did you go with?

7 A. Battalion commander Radika Petrovic and I.

8 Q. And there were no other officers with you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Approximately can you tell us what time of day it was that you

11 went to the defence line?

12 A. In the morning, just after I had arrived, we got ready and went

13 there on foot, since it is a type of terrain which is not easily

14 accessible.

15 Q. Concerning your battalion command, where was the defence line in

16 relation to the command itself? How far was it?

17 A. The battalion command is some 300 to 500 metres away from the

18 defence line.

19 Q. Did you go there following an express request by your commander

20 to visit your defence lines?

21 A. We agreed on it together and we went there.

22 Q. Tell us whether the battalion commander, since you were absent

23 for a number of days, advised you of any events which had taken place

24 during your leave.

25 A. He did. He told me that when Srebrenica fell, there was a large

Page 22153

1 column of Muslim forces withdrew from Srebrenica and took the route to

2 Jaglica Brdo, Bokcin Potok and onwards further afield.

3 Q. You mentioned Bokcin Potok. Tell us what the name of the place

4 is. Does the local population have a name, a specific name, for the

5 location where your battalion forces were at?

6 A. The location is called Jezestica.

7 Q. When you arrived there with your battalion commander, what did

8 you see?

9 A. We set off from the right flank of our defence and we saw where

10 those forces had gone through. Nothing was left on the patch through

11 which they had gone through. It was almost like a runway. It was flat.

12 There were items of clothing that had been discarded because it was

13 extremely hot during that period.

14 Q. Who did you see first? Did you see your troops first or did you

15 tour the lines? Please describe what took place that day.

16 A. First we toured our defence line. When we were done, we went

17 further afield to the place the forces had gone through and that is what

18 we saw.

19 Q. Did you first tour the soldiers along the defence lines and can

20 you tell me whether any of the soldiers there briefed the battalion

21 commander?

22 A. The company commander told us that at Bokcin Potok, there was

23 massive firing. They could also hear horses, and the shooting lasted for

24 a few minutes, and then it ended.

25 Q. Can you recall whether the company commander, when briefing the

Page 22154

1 battalion commander, specified at what time the shooting took place as

2 well as when it was that they heard the horses?

3 A. It was on the 11th -- actually, the 12th of July, around the time

4 Srebrenica fell, when they went to Bokcin Potok ... it is very

5 inaccessible terrain. The location is called Bokcin Potok as well as the

6 creek there.

7 Q. When I asked you about the time, I meant the time of day. Were

8 you told anything about that?

9 A. It was around -- well, in the morning hours, between 10.00 and

10 11.00.

11 Q. Very well. Do you remember whether you were briefed on any

12 incidents?

13 A. Are you referring to our defence line?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. There had not been any incidents whatsoever, which meant that our

16 forces didn't have any need to open fire and they did not except for one

17 instance which involved the death of a soldier. There was nothing else.

18 Q. Whose soldier was it who got killed?

19 A. Ours. He was a member of our battalion. It was late at night

20 that he went out of the trench and sat on a stump. He lit a cigarette,

21 which was clearly visible in the night. A burst of fire could be heard

22 out of the forest, and hit him in the right upper leg. He died on the

23 way to the hospital.

24 Q. And this event or incident was something that the battalion

25 commander was briefed on that day?

Page 22155

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown a

3 piece of paper? Or rather, can he be given a blank piece of paper which

4 will be placed on the ELMO? I will ask the witness to draw a sketch of

5 the place where he toured the battalion soldiers and the rest that he's

6 been telling us.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?

8 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Wait for me to tell you what you need to do. You can please sit

10 comfortably, Mr. Cvoric.

11 Let me go back to your testimony. You said that the defence line

12 was a half a kilometre away from the building housing the command.

13 A. The battalion command, yes.

14 Q. Can you please draw the battalion command for us?

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. The square --

17 A. This is the house where the battalion command was stationed.

18 Q. Can you please mark that with number 1?

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Very well. You have drawn two curving lines above the battalion

21 command. Can you tell us what this is?

22 A. There is a forest trail some 100 metres away from our battalion

23 command.

24 Q. Can you please place a number 2 between the two lines on the

25 left-hand side?

Page 22156

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And this will be the number marking the forest trail.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cvoric.

5 Can you now please try and draw for us the defence line as it was

6 positioned? The defence line of your battalion, that is.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cvoric. Listen to me carefully now. I will be

9 asking you to explain this sketch you drew. We want this to be entered

10 correctly into the transcript. You have drawn a meandering line. What

11 does that stand for? Are these elevations, hillocks or what?

12 A. These are elevations here. Where I placed the double Ts that

13 stands for trig point. Should I place the number as well?

14 Q. There is no need for that. On the second elevation, you've also

15 placed the double Ts for trig point. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell us now, between the two trig points, you've drawn several

18 squares. Can you tell us what they stand for?

19 A. These are trenches where soldiers were stationed.

20 Q. Mr. Cvoric, at the time, were you shown the spot where the

21 soldier smoking the cigarette at night was killed, was shot?

22 A. At the -- at a trig point to the right-hand side of this one.

23 This is where the soldier was shot, next to the trench.

24 Q. Can you please place an X or a cross next to that and mark it

25 with number 3?

Page 22157

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. In order for us to know that the squares stand for trenches, can

3 you place number 4 next to one of them? And that will signify that they

4 stand for exactly that.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cvoric.

7 Based on the sketch you've drawn, tell us if the soldiers told

8 you where it was that the shooting could be heard from as well as the

9 horses neighing?

10 A. Yes. To the right-hand side, from the spot where the soldier was

11 shot, there was a downward slope and that was where the sounds came from.

12 Q. Was it a steep slope, Mr. Cvoric?

13 A. Yes, it was so steep as to be almost inaccessible.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cvoric.

15 Please place today's date and your name in the bottom right-hand

16 corner. It is the 11th of July today --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Of June, interpreter's correction.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. I have some other questions for you in relation to the sketch.

20 I've only asked you to place your signature now because I was afraid that

21 I might forget this later. You told us that with your battalion

22 commander you set out to tour the soldiers.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you set out on this mission on your own or were you

25 accompanied by other people?

Page 22158

1 A. There was just the commander and I.

2 Q. Tell us what it was that you were able to see while touring the

3 area and can you tell us on which side of the elevations you've drawn did

4 you see something, if anything?

5 A. To the right-hand side of the TT trig point where the soldier was

6 killed, some 700 to 800 metres to the right, we saw this large trail that

7 was flattened and pieces -- and items of clothing that were discarded.

8 Q. Tell us, this trodden trail, where did it run through? Did it

9 run through the forest?

10 A. Yes, through the forest all the way down to the creek.

11 Q. You said that you saw discarded items of clothing along the

12 trail. Can you tell us how wide it was?

13 A. It was large, it was wide. I wouldn't be exaggerating if I said

14 that it was as wide as a runway.

15 Q. Thank you very much. We will not be needing this sketch any

16 longer. It can be given to the Trial Chamber.

17 Thank you, Madam Usher.

18 Mr. Cvoric, when you were told that shooting and horses neighing

19 could be heard out of that depression or that ditch, what did you and the

20 commander do, if anything? Did you do anything to find out what the

21 shooting and the neighing of the horses was all about?

22 A. At that point, we decided to take a group of -- or rather to

23 select a group of soldiers who would go down the slope in the footprints

24 of the column, in the footsteps of the column, to see what there was to

25 be seen in the ditch.

Page 22159

1 Q. Can you tell us how long this group stayed in Bokcin Polje?

2 A. For an hour, perhaps a bit more.

3 Q. And you stayed behind on that same spot, you were there as they

4 returned from their reconnaissance mission?

5 A. Yes. We waited for them at that spot.

6 Q. Did they brief you on what they were able to see? Were you there

7 when they briefed about that?

8 A. They first radioed us, telling us that there were quite a few

9 individuals killed down there, that there were dead horses there as well.

10 Q. Very well, but this is something that they radioed to you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When they got back, what did they tell you then?

13 A. They told us that there were many individuals who had been shot

14 in their heads, in their chest, and that there were many horses that were

15 killed by gunfire and many who died simply from lack of water and from

16 sheer heat.

17 Q. Did they tell you anything about the injuries that they were able

18 to observe on the horses? Were there any weapons on the horses?

19 A. Yes, there were various pieces of weapons and ammunition.

20 Q. Were you able to observe the weapons yourselves?

21 A. This is how it went. We ordered them to pick whatever automatic

22 or semi-automatic rifles they could gather on the ground, these were

23 M-48s, and to herd the horses toward the battalion command.

24 Q. You told us just now that they were ordered to herd the horses

25 and take them to the battalion command. Does this mean that the horses

Page 22160

1 found there were also alive, that there weren't only dead horses there?

2 A. There were 23 horses that had arms mounted on them.

3 Q. Do you remember how the arms were packed, in what sort of

4 package?

5 A. Yes. Some of the horses had 65-millimetre shells mounted on

6 them, which were placed in sacks.

7 Q. Can you please slow down?

8 A. I said that they had 60-millimetre mortars that were placed in

9 sacks that had UNHCR lettering on them, and they had the globe that stood

10 for the United Nations.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Tapuskovic, much of the territory that you have

12 been dealing with is already included in the adjudicated facts and agreed

13 facts. I mean, there has never been contestation on the part of the

14 Prosecution that there was a column that a good part of it was military,

15 that there was fighting, that there were Serbs killed in big numbers. So

16 I don't know, I would rather concentrate on what will really help your

17 client.

18 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

19 be mindful of that.

20 Q. Mr. Cvoric, this is what I'd like to know: At the time you were

21 at the defence lines, was there any shooting?

22 A. No, none at all.

23 Q. Were you told at the time that our forces had opened fire?

24 A. Yes, but there was no shooting to be heard.

25 Q. On what occasion was the fire opened, tell us?

Page 22161

1 A. Only at the time of the killing of that soldier, at night. The

2 second occasion was when one of the soldiers opened fire, made a burst of

3 fire, that was uncalled for and we could hear -- or see in the morning

4 that that other individual was killed too. He had a radio set by him and

5 that was all.

6 Q. Can you tell me, did you have information about whether there had

7 been any women or children among the dead that were found down the slope

8 in the ditch?

9 A. There were no women or children among them. They were all

10 military-age men.

11 Q. Can you tell us on what basis you were able to conclude that

12 these were military-age men, conscripts?

13 A. We were able to conclude that because -- well, none of them wore

14 uniforms, but they had military boots on their feet.

15 Q. [No interpretation]? What happened to the weapons that you held

16 over? I believe I have a problem with the interpretation.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But the transcript is there now. Still, I would

18 suggest that you repeat the question because as it is, it doesn't make

19 sense. It's not your fault. It's the transcript's fault obviously.

20 What happened to the weapons? Can you go on from there, please and

21 repeat the question?

22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Cvoric, because of the technical error, can you please tell

24 us what happened with the weapons that you found loaded on to the horses?

25 A. All the horses were brought to in front of the battalion command.

Page 22162

1 They were unloaded. All the weapons, all the ammunition, was unloaded

2 there.

3 Q. What happened then?

4 A. Then we informed the brigade command. We made a note of

5 everything. A lorry was sent from the brigade command to the battalion

6 command, to our battalion command, and that ammunition and those weapons

7 were loaded on to the lorry and transported to the brigade command in

8 Zvornik.

9 Q. Tell me, please, did you ever receive information to the effect

10 that besides the bodies of the killed person who died in that skirmish,

11 anything was found, any piece of object, clothes or anything else?

12 A. There was a lot of clothes that had been discarded. There were a

13 lot of weapons that they had carried and there were certain pistols. I

14 believe that all these people had licences to carry those. And there was

15 a lot of brandy.

16 Q. Mr. Cvoric, was everything else made a note of and was everything

17 else handed over to the brigade? And I'm talking about the rest of the

18 weapons.

19 A. Everything was collected and handed over to the brigade command.

20 No weapons were left behind lying on the ground.

21 Q. As you were leaving the defence line, what was going on at the

22 time? Where did you go? What was happening to the soldiers? What

23 happened next?

24 A. Let me put it this way. Upon the order of the brigade commander,

25 we withdrew from those positions, not a single soldier remained there.

Page 22163

1 We went toward Orahovac to the elementary school and we were billeted

2 there.

3 Q. Were the soldiers pulled over the same day when you left?

4 A. Yes, all of us went. Nobody was left behind.

5 Q. So nobody was left behind then.

6 Did you hear on that occasion, in any of the conversations with

7 your commander, or the other soldiers, that an order had been issued to

8 use weapons?

9 A. There was no need for that, so no such thing was ever issued.

10 Q. And let me ask you what happened to the defence line, since

11 you've told us that all the soldiers were recalled?

12 A. Everything was free, there was no need for anybody to remain

13 there. Everything was clear.

14 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have

15 no further questions for this witness.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam. One moment.

17 Mr. Ostojic, you ever indicated that you don't wish to

18 cross-examine this witness.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: That's correct, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic?

21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions for this witness, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Lazarevic?

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: No questions, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Fauveau?

Page 22164

1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Krgovic?

3 MR. KRGOVIC: No questions for this witness.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Pandurevic has already signified.

5 You confirm that, Mr. Sarapa?

6 MR. SARAPA: No questions.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye?

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President, and good evening to

9 you. I may have a few questions. I'd appreciate it if we could take the

10 break now and I think it will be a lot shorter than I anticipated

11 originally.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. We'll have a 25-minute break starting

13 from now. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Cvoric.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. My name is Kweku Vanderpuye, I'm an attorney with the

22 Prosecution. I'm going to put some questions to you in relation to your

23 direct examination.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you going to finish today or not?

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I anticipate that I'll finish

Page 22165

1 hopefully within 15 minutes or so.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. No. Because if you weren't,

3 then I would have asked you again whether you still insist that

4 tomorrow's sitting be in the afternoon or whether we could shift it to

5 the morning. All right. Go ahead.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. I just want to clarify something right at the beginning,

8 Mr. Cvoric. You were a member of the 8th Battalion in July 1995, that's

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And in July 1995, that battalion was actually under the

12 command of the Bratunac Brigade as the 4th Battalion of that brigade; is

13 that right?

14 A. Not right.

15 Q. Okay. Now, sir, you mentioned that you were away during the

16 beginning part of July and when you returned you were briefed in some

17 respects about what actually transpired over several days. Is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Okay. Now, at the time you held the position of assistant

21 commander for security and intelligence for the battalion; is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And with respect to that position, you had several

24 responsibilities?

25 A. Of course, just as in any military.

Page 22166

1 Q. Among the responsibilities you had is that you were tasked with

2 organising and collecting and processing data about the enemy in the area

3 of combat operations?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You also had to plan and organise intelligence and security or

6 reconnaissance in the battalion?

7 A. Yes. That was our job.

8 Q. And you also had to ensure that the gathering and forwarding of

9 intelligence data on the enemy transpired?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. If we could just have 65 ter 3402 in e-court, please?

12 Okay. If I could refer you -- if we could just go down the page, please,

13 to where you see paragraph 2, we should be able to capture what I want,

14 all the way -- all the way down? Okay. It's the second -- or the

15 third-to-last point there.

16 And one of the functions that you had as the assistant commander

17 for security and intelligence was that you had to carry out necessary

18 interrogation of war prisoners and refugees and arrange for their

19 evacuation to a determined place. You see that written on this document?

20 A. Yes, I can see that.

21 Q. Okay. If we could just scroll up to the top, please, for a

22 moment. Way at the top. You see your name on this document, Mr. Cvoric?

23 A. Yes, at the top, in the right corner.

24 Q. Now, you did mention that you were briefed on a shooting that

25 occurred while you were away. You had mentioned that a Serb soldier who

Page 22167

1 was smoking a cigarette was shot. You recall that testimony?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you were informed that that soldier's name was Djordje

4 Vukosavljevic, right?

5 A. I have forgotten in the meantime but yes you're right now that

6 you mention it.

7 Q. Okay. And were you informed that he was shot in the leg and that

8 he bled to death on the way to the hospital, right?

9 A. Yes, in the right upper leg.

10 Q. Did you ever receive any information that the 1st Company of the

11 battalion had captured Muslim prisoners?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You sure about that?

14 A. That's not correct. I am sure that it's not correct.

15 Q. All right. If I could have in e-court, please, 65 ter 1121, D is

16 the English, C is the B/C/S, please, and could I ask that it not be

17 broadcast. If we could just go, the time will be reflected on there as

18 1640. Okay. There we go.

19 This is an intercept that I'm showing you that's dated 12th of

20 July, the time is 1640. All right. And it reads, in part, the Turks --

21 or my guys had captured a Turk alive but unfortunately we later on and

22 someone in the background on Obrenovic side says that's been shot, they

23 sent him, yes they've sent him for exchange.

24 You see that part written in this intercept, sir?

25 A. I do.

Page 22168

1 Q. And is it your testimony that you were never provided with any of

2 that information from your commander?

3 A. I'm not familiar with this because on that dates I was not there.

4 Q. All right. You aware that Radika Petrovic, your commander,

5 testified about this particular circumstance at a prior trial, on 5 May

6 2004? And he said in essence between pages 8725 and 8737 of that trial

7 that in fact the 1st Battalion did receive a captured Muslim and that the

8 Zvornik Brigade had been informed of that and that Obrenovic had issued

9 orders that the prisoner be taken to Kajici and that he was to be taken

10 to an asphalt road there and collected by Dusko Vukotic. Did you receive

11 any of that information?

12 A. No, nothing.

13 Q. He also said that according to what the commander of the 1st

14 Company told him, that they took the prisoner and that he started trying

15 to escape and that he went toward a minefield which had trip wire mines

16 and that their lives would have been endangered, all of their lives would

17 have been endangered, so they shot him to death. Did you receive any of

18 that information, Mr. Cvoric?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. Okay. Further on in his testimony, he actually says that Dusko

21 Vukotic actually never went to the command because that's where he was

22 with his security man, and that would be you, wouldn't it, Mr. Cvoric?

23 A. I never met Vukotic in my battalion, never in my life.

24 Q. I'm not asking you whether you met Mr. Vukotic. I'm asking you

25 whether or not Mr. Petrovic told you about this prisoner that had been

Page 22169

1 shot by members of the 1st Company of your Battalion.

2 A. No.

3 Q. I'm going to ask you about a separate prisoner altogether, one

4 that was captured on the 13th. Did your commander ever tell you about a

5 Muslim prisoner that was captured on the 13th by this same 1st Company of

6 your battalion?

7 A. No, he did not.

8 Q. Well, he testified, as I said, about two incidents and this is

9 the second one of which he testified about and what he said was that a

10 prisoner was taken by the 1st Company of your battalion, that's the night

11 of the 13th, the morning of the 14th, he was brought to the battalion

12 command where he was questioned by commander Petrovic, he gave his name,

13 and his name was Asif Gabeljic, about 45 years old and that he was

14 interviewed or interrogated by Mr. Petrovic. Did you ever hear about

15 that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you ever hear that this particular individual was turned over

18 to one Momir Nikolic of the Bratunac Brigade?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. And would it surprise you to learn that this particular

21 individual, we have evidence, showed up in a grave site in Zeleni Jadar?

22 A. It's possible but I wouldn't know.

23 Q. One of your responsibilities as a security and intelligence

24 officer is to know these kinds of things; isn't that right, Mr. Cvoric?

25 A. Yes, but before I said that during that particular period of

Page 22170

1 time, I was off duty.

2 Q. All right. Just one moment.

3 Bear with me for one second, Your Honours, just a second.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could have 65 ter number 317 in e-court,

6 please.

7 Q. Mr. Cvoric, can you see what's in front of you there on the

8 screen? This is an attendance log --

9 A. Yes, I can see that.

10 Q. Attendance log for your brigade. If we could just go over to

11 your battalion, if we could just go over and see that this is for the

12 month of July. You see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And your attendance for the days of 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, are

15 all marked with a plus indicating that you're present at the command.

16 A. I can't see the dates. What dates are --

17 Q. If you look on the top right-hand corner, you can see that it's

18 for the month of July. You see that?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Okay. And you recognise your name on that document, right?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. You're the fourth one down? I'm sorry, the third one down?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have no further questions. Thank you,

25 Mr. President. Thank you Mr. Cvoric.

Page 22171

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. Is there

2 re-examination, Madam Tapuskovic?

3 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, thank you very

4 much.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam.

6 We don't have any further questions for you, which means you can

7 go. On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having

8 accepted to come and give evidence here, and on behalf of everyone

9 present, I wish you a safe journey back home.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Exhibits? Exhibits?

13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we don't have any

14 exhibits from the 65 ter list, save for the sketch that the witness

15 himself drew during his evidence-in-chief.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection to the admittance of that sketch?

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President, there is no objection.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from the other Defence teams? None.

19 So it is so admitted.

20 Any exhibits on your part?

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, we have two. One is 65 ter

22 317, which is the attendance log or attendance sheet, I should say. And

23 then the second document is 65 ter 3402.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Any objections, Mr. Zivanovic?

25 Or Madam Tapuskovic?

Page 22172

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Any objections from the other Defence

3 teams? None. They are so admitted.

4 Now, these past few days, starting from the 2nd of June when we

5 started the Defence case, has, if anything, served to teach us all or

6 some of us a lesson, namely that the projected estimates that we have

7 been receiving are inflated. I'm not in any way hinting that they are

8 inflated intentionally because I've spent my life as a lawyer before I

9 became a judge, and I know that when it comes to the Defence case,

10 sometimes the prognosis changes from time to time. And I would expect

11 this pattern to continue. In fact, even before -- or rather when you

12 filed, each one of us filed your estimates and 65 ter documents, in our

13 discussions I made it clear that this was my anticipation based on my

14 past experience. And it is happening indeed.

15 While it happens, it can cause damage, and this is what I would

16 try and avoid as much as I can. I would like you again to sit down,

17 Mr. Zivanovic, and I am not in any way criticising you. I know that you

18 have been reasonable, you've done your work well, so don't read my

19 message as a criticism. It's not a criticism. It's an invitation to sit

20 down again and go through the whole exercise again. I know that today

21 and tomorrow we can't do anything because the next witness is already

22 scheduled to testify by videolink and you could not anticipate that we

23 would finish with your list on Wednesday, but for the future, you need to

24 take this into account as a -- not only a possibility but as a

25 probability, because I can assure you this is how it's going to go on.

Page 22173

1 All right?

2 Next message is to you, Mr. Ostojic. The way I read things, your

3 case may come up pretty much earlier than you may have anticipated.

4 There are still a few unfinished symphonies on your desk, and if you --

5 which I am sure you have, you've seen the latest filing by the

6 Prosecution in relation to 92 bis, et cetera, et cetera. There is an

7 indication of what still needs to be done by you. We are working on that

8 as well and we are identifying what still needs to be done by you but

9 rather than us coming back to you and tell you what to do, when to do it

10 and so on and so forth, I would appreciate if you take the opportunity

11 now that you have got these two days to sit again with your team but also

12 with the Prosecution and try to trim whatever needs trimming and file or

13 disclose what still remains to be disclosed. There are statements.

14 There are translations. There are quite a few things. And I wouldn't

15 like you to find yourself unpleasantly surprised either by some

16 intervention on our part or by a sudden stop or termination of the

17 Popovic Defence team, which I am sure will finish earlier than we had

18 anticipated.

19 So for the time being I'm limiting myself to Mr. Zivanovic and to

20 you. Yes, one moment.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Kwon is also making a good point and a

23 suggestion. On Monday, we have that individual testifying by videolink.

24 The next witness is Nedjo Blagojevic, also by videolink. What I would

25 like you to do is to make, in consultation with the Prosecution and your

Page 22174

1 colleagues and the other Defence teams, a near enough best estimate

2 possible of how long you expect the videolink of Rakic to last so that if

3 it is anticipated to last less than the sacramental three and a half

4 hours or three hours 45 minutes and there is a leftover, we would like to

5 you see whether it is possible to make an arrangement for Blagojevic,

6 Nedjo -- sorry, for Branko Bogicevic to be present here and start his

7 evidence immediately we finish with Rakic.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Mr. Bogicevic has to come to The Hague on

9 Saturday.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So it means you will have enough time to proof him

11 and so on and so forth.


13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Make your calculations exactly as to

14 the rest of the week because, again, I mean, if we spend Monday, the

15 whole of Monday, with Rakic, and then we have got Tuesday with

16 Blagojevic. All right. I'm going to leave it entirely in your hands. I

17 know that you are a very capable lawyer. But, please, try to -- I know

18 it's difficult. I mean, it's not easy, because what happens in trials is

19 sometimes not possible to anticipate, but I'm going to leave it in your

20 hands, feeling 100 per cent sure of your cooperation.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll do my best to meet your requirements.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you.

23 All right. We stand adjourned until Monday, Monday in the

24 morning.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.23 p.m.,

Page 22175

1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of June,

2 2008, at 9.00 a.m.