Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24055

 1                           Friday, 25 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good morning, Madam Registrar, and good morning,

 6     everybody.  Could you call the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 8     everyone.  This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin

 9     Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, ma'am.  For the record, all the accused

11     are here.  Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Vanderpuye,

12     Mr. Thayer.  Defence I see absent Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Bourgon, and

13     Mr. Josse, and Mr. Haynes from what I can see.

14             So I understand you have something to tell us, Ms. Fauveau.

15     Please, go ahead.

16             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Your

17     Honour, we mentioned the schedule during the Pre-Defence Conference, and

18     we requested two additional days for recess, and my colleagues and myself

19     are very grateful to you for having granted us those two extra days.

20     However, we had a meeting between the Defence counsel, and we had

21     discussions about various matters related to the trial and about the

22     things we are supposed to do during the summer recess, and we came to the

23     conclusion that it will be very difficult for us to complete all these

24     tasks with just two weeks and two days of vacation.  But summer recess

25     does not mean that we are not going to perform any work.

Page 24056

 1             We are aware that the team that has completed the presentation of

 2     its case is waiting for a decision of the Appeals Chamber.  All the other

 3     Defence teams are supposed to put their case yet, and all the teams --

 4     most of the teams will spend most of their time during recess in the

 5     field, and all that time is not sufficient for us to complete all the

 6     tasks we are supposed to accomplish.

 7             Contrary to the Prosecutor, the Defence teams have only two

 8     counsel each.  It's very risky to send one of us, one of the counsel in

 9     the field when the court is in session, because if one of us has a

10     problem, then we would have to interrupt the trial.  All the teams have

11     investigators, but these investigators are not of the same calibre as the

12     investigators of the OTP.  Therefore, it's absolutely essential for us

13     counsel to spend some time in the field.

14             Because of all these difficulties, we would like to request three

15     additional days for recess and to set the date for the beginning of the

16     trial to the 25th of August.

17             This is not the only problem we have to deal with.  All of us

18     have our own offices in our respective countries.  We have things to do

19     there.  We have administrative and tax-related tasks to accomplish, and

20     between the 1st and the 15th of August there is nothing we can do because

21     it's a period where everybody's on holiday in our respective countries.

22             Finally, let me say that up until now the trial had been going on

23     in a very positive atmosphere with a good understanding between the

24     parties.  I believe that this good climate, this good understanding is

25     partly due to the schedule we have had so far with regular breaks that

Page 24057

 1     allowed us to rest and to prepare the next hearings for them to run very

 2     smoothly.  Obviously tensions are rising when people are tired, and I

 3     believe that at this very moment all of us are extremely tired.  Without

 4     these three additional days I believe that we'll come back to the

 5     Tribunal just as tried as we are now at the end of August.

 6             This is a very long trial, but this is mostly a multi-accused

 7     trial with seven parties.  It's a very complex trial.  We are very aware

 8     of the deadlines set for this Tribunal, and we are convinced that we'll

 9     be able to fulfil and to comply with these deadlines, and we hope that

10     we'll be able to complete the trial in the same spirit of cooperation and

11     mutual respect as so far.

12             For all these reasons, for all the reasons related to this trial

13     and for what I would call human reasons, the Defence teams, in agreement

14     with the OTP, are requesting three additional days for recess and are

15     asking for the trial to begin again on the 25th of August.

16             Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam Fauveau.

18             Anybody else wishes to add anything to that?  All right.

19             Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, we will of course be prepared to

21     proceed as directed, though this is my home leave here and I had already

22     made plans to be away that week.  So I won't be here that week, but my

23     team, of course, will be ready to proceed, but -- so how that works into

24     the mix, I just wanted to let you know.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's for -- for you personally it's neither fish

Page 24058

 1     nor fowl, but for the rest of the team it could be.

 2              All right.  We'll come back to you on this later on.

 3             Now, yesterday, Mr. McCloskey, towards the end of the sitting,

 4     you raised an issue having your concerns about the way Beara Defence team

 5     have been proceeding with their case when it relates to the information

 6     that is due to the Prosecution before the arrival or before the testimony

 7     of each witness.

 8             You would -- those of you who have understood me over the years

 9     would know exactly why I said -- I stopped the discussion there and then

10     and I said we'll sleep over it, because it was indeed a matter of great

11     concern.  There is a lot involved, and Mr. Ostojic had left in the

12     meantime.  I was sure that given a little bit of time everyone would have

13     thought about it, including ourselves.

14             We, of course, discussed after the -- after your complaint we had

15     a short discussion, and we each have thought about the matter in the

16     interim, and we share your concerns.  Let me use a very moderate phrase.

17     We are very unhappy with the situation, pretty much like you are.

18             So Mr. Ostojic will be back by Monday, as he said.  In the

19     meantime, given the importance of the matter that you have raised, and in

20     our minds between yesterday and today it has increased in importance, I

21     think the best way for you to go about it is to formalise it in writing

22     if there is, on our part, to be a proper order like the one that you

23     referred to that was handed down in the Stakic case.  So you -- however,

24     however, between now and when we hand down -- hand down the order, if

25     that becomes necessary, we don't want you to be prejudiced, and therefore

Page 24059

 1     what we are telling you for the time being as an interim provision, for

 2     safeguard, is the following:  that should during the testimony of the

 3     next witness -- witnesses, until this is finalised, there be matters

 4     that -- or issues that the witness are -- witnesses are asked questions

 5     about of which you have not had prior notice, in other words, if you're

 6     taken by surprise at any given moment, unless it is clear that a new

 7     issue has arisen in the wake of previous questions and could not have

 8     been anticipated, then we are reserving to the Prosecution the right to

 9     ask for a postponement of your cross-examination.

10             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  At the time I spoke, I

12     did not -- and I was responding to Mr. Nikolic, I was not fully aware of

13     how the new news about that -- I think it's Mr. Pereula, affected

14     Mr. Nicholls.  I've spoken to him.  He is ready to go and should be ready

15     to go, though the next witness, Mr. Kerkez, this colonel from the Main

16     Staff transport issue, there's no new issue on the table.  The 65 ter

17     report said he would talk about coming to Potocari and Bratunac on the

18     12th of July.  The proofing note we received a day or two ago said he

19     would be talking about coming there on the 12th of July.  This morning

20     when I got to my e-mails, I'm informed that there was a typo and that he

21     is -- will be speaking of coming there on the 13th of July.

22             Now, the difference between the 12th and the 13th when you're

23     reviewing documents and intercepts and all the massive material to

24     prepare is rather massive.  I'm from the old school where I used to find

25     out about Defence witnesses by looking behind me and seeing who came in

Page 24060

 1     the door, and I'm -- I can be ready for that.  You will not get a good

 2     presentation from the Prosecution as you would have otherwise.  So we

 3     will be ready for this witness despite this situation, and I hope I do

 4     not have to ask that a witness would come back.  But the saga continues,

 5     and we are preparing the -- the response to this matter that has been

 6     dealt with somewhat by filings, and we'll get that to you very soon.

 7     Thank you.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Thank you.  Do you wish to comment,

 9     Mr. Nikolic?

10             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I do feel the

11     need to clarify certain matters.  After the -- yesterday's day of work

12     and your caution, in the course of the afternoon we made contacts through

13     court officers, and I believe that our cooperation with the OTP is on the

14     uphill, and I am sure that the absence of Mr. Ostojic will not affect the

15     proceedings, as not done so far.

16             I believe that everything that needs to be completed in time

17     today and tomorrow will in fact be completed, and we have informed all

18     the -- all those who need to know about that.

19             I believe that the best way to proceed when it comes to the

20     matters that need to be corrected in terms of what the witness will

21     testify about can be done with the witness today in the course of his

22     evidence.

23             Let me use this opportunity to highlight the reasons that I

24     mentioned yesterday when I said that we were not prepared for Spiro

25     Pereula and his testimony, but I will state that we are prepared,

Page 24061

 1     nevertheless, to proceed with his testimony after Mr. Kerkez's evidence.

 2     Spiro Pereula will be speaking about the same matters that another

 3     witness we, Erdemovic has already testified about so the Prosecution is

 4     aware of that; although, I must say that we have not had the time to make

 5     note of the proofing session we had with him yesterday afternoon.  If we

 6     so decide, I would like those who are in charge of that to make sure that

 7     Mr. Pereula is contacted and brought here to the court.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  When did he arrive here in The Hague?  Mr. Nikolic,

 9     when did he arrive here in The Hague, Pereula?

10             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] He arrived in The Hague the day

11     before yesterday.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps if one of Mr. Nikolic's associates could

15     meet briefly with Mr. Nicholls now just verbally, that would be great.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah.  I think -- I was thinking exactly of giving

17     you five minutes to talk a little bit amongst yourself, Mr. Nikolic and

18     Mr. Nicholls or Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, we have Kerkez first so that's the

20     next witness.  So there's -- if they can just see Mr. Nicholls at some

21     point, we can get that established.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  So you will meet during the first break, and in the

24     meantime we can start with the first witness, Kerkez.  We need -- okay.

25     We need to process the documents relating to Debra Komar's testimony

Page 24062

 1     first, because we didn't do that yesterday.

 2             Mr. Nikolic, you have circulated a list of ten documents.

 3             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The list of

 4     documents admitted in the course of Mr. Ostojic's examination of

 5     yesterday was submitted.  If necessary, I can read them all out, but I

 6     don't think there's any need for that.  The list was filed after all.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Any objections, Mr. Vanderpuye?

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have no objections.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objections from any of the other Defence teams?

10     None.  Right.  So they are all admitted.

11             I don't know that they were all used with the witness, but I have

12     my doubts in relation to one or two of them, but anyway.

13             Mr. Vanderpuye, let's see first.  Any of the other Defence teams?

14     I wouldn't think so, have any documents?  Mr. Sarapa?  You cross-examined

15     the previous witness.  Do you have any documents?

16             MR. SARAPA:  No, there were no documents.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We have a 65 ter 3551

19     which is the statement of Dean Manning dated 24th November 2003.  In

20     addition to that we have 65 ter 3479, which was the example -- I'm sorry.

21     That's under seal.  Which was the example of a match report that I used

22     with Dr. Komar.  I just wanted to mention in respect of this particular

23     exhibit, during the examination of Dr. Komar, although she agreed with me

24     that the number indicated on it was 29.5 trillion, in fact it is 29.5

25     billion, and I just wanted to make that clear for the record.

Page 24063

 1             The -- in addition to these two exhibits, Mr. President, in light

 2     of the events of yesterday, I think it is necessary to establish for the

 3     purposes of the record at least when these ICMP data disclosures

 4     occurred, and in particular the one related to Mr. Manning's 8 June 2007

 5     exhumation report or summary.  I have the disclosure dates of those

 6     documents in letters.  They're not marked.  Obviously we can assign them

 7     numbers with your permission, but I thought it was important that the

 8     Court be aware that that data was disclosed to the Defence on 6 July

 9     2007, well in advance of obviously Dr. Komar's testimony.  And I would

10     also point out that her -- the annex to her -- to her report itself makes

11     reference to two separate ICMP data spreadsheets in relation to these

12     individuals, and we've had exactly two disclosures with respect to that

13     except for the most recent one this July.  So I thought that was

14     important, and with your permission I would offer those as well into

15     evidence.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Any objections?  Mr. Nikolic?

17             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Any objections from any of the other

19     Defence teams?  None.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Dean Manning's statement was not admitted earlier,

22     was it?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I don't believe that one was.

24             JUDGE KWON:  You're tendering all of it?

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.

Page 24064

 1             JUDGE KWON:  There is no opposition from the Defence?

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There's no opposition, that's correct.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  So these documents are all

 4     admitted.  We can proceed with the next witness, Zeljko Kerkez.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6                           WITNESS:  ZELJKO KERKEZ

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, Mr. Kerkez.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  And as Presiding Judge, I welcome you to this

11     Tribunal.  You're going to testify in the Popovic et al. case.  You've

12     been summoned as a witness by the Defence team appearing for Colonel

13     Beara.

14             Before you start giving evidence our rules require that you make

15     a solemn declaration to the effect that you will be testifying the truth,

16     texts of which is going to be handed to you now.  Please read it aloud

17     and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.  In other words it will

18     be the equivalent to an oath to testify to the truth as it exists in many

19     jurisdictions.

20             Go ahead.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  ZELJKO KERKEZ

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please make yourself comfortable.

Page 24065

 1             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, a caution may be appropriate for

 3     this witness.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Do you agree, Mr. Nikolic?

 5             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I do.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Kerkez, I do not know what questions will be

 7     put to you in the course of your testimony, but it could well be that

 8     questions are put to you that if you answer truthfully could possibly

 9     expose you to investigations and possible criminal proceedings.  In such

10     cases, our law, our rules, provide a safeguard in favour of the witness.

11     Our rules give you rights.  But as I will be explaining to you, these are

12     not absolute rights.  Let me simplify it as much as I can.

13             If such a question is put to you and you feel, rightly or

14     wrongly, that it could expose you to criminal proceedings, if you

15     consider such a question as an incriminatory one, in other words, then

16     you can ask us for protection, the protection being asking us to exempt

17     you from answering such a question.  We will, of course, hear what you

18     will have to say, and then using our discretion, we will decide whether

19     to grant you such an exception or whether to order you to answer the

20     question.  If we grant you such an exception, of course we move to the

21     next question.  If we order you to answer such question, then provided

22     your answer is truthful, anything you say, because you have been ordered

23     by the Trial Chamber to say it, cannot be used against you in any

24     proceedings that might be instituted.

25             Have you understood what I have tried to explain to you in simple

Page 24066

 1     terms?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, fully.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey and

 4     Mr. Nikolic.  Mr. Nikolic will go first.  He will then be followed by

 5     others on cross-examination.

 6             Mr. Nikolic.

 7             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Nikolic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kerkez.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Before we start with your examination, let me make some

12     preliminary remarks regarding the examination technique.  We have to bear

13     in mind the fact that our discussion has to be interpreted.  This means

14     that we have to leave enough time for the interpreters to accurately

15     interpret what we're saying.  We will achieve this by making a pause,

16     both of us, before giving an answer or putting a question.  Also, I would

17     urge you to speak a bit more slowly.  I hope you understand what I'm

18     saying.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, we will formally introduce ourselves now.  I'm

21     Predrag Nikolic.  I'm a member of the Defence team for Ljubisa Beara.

22             Please introduce yourself.  Give us your full name, date of

23     birth, place of birth, father's name.

24        A.   My name is Zeljko Kerkez, a retired colonel.  I was born on the

25     28th of December, 1951 in Kozarac, Prijedor municipality, Bosnia and

Page 24067

 1     Herzegovina.  Father's name Lazo.

 2        Q.   What is your educational background, Mr. Kerkez?  What are your

 3     qualifications?

 4        A.   I completed the elementary school in Bac municipality in

 5     Vojvodina in Serbia.  Technical high school -- the technical high school

 6     I graduated from in Novi Sad in 1970.  I graduated from the technical

 7     military academy in 1977 in Zagreb.  I have -- I am the -- with the rank

 8     of second lieutenant, and I also graduated from the technical military

 9     academy in the field of transport support with a -- and that's the

10     master's degree I received from there.

11        Q.   Can you briefly describe your career up until 1992.

12        A.   After I graduated from the academy I -- in 1975 I started working

13     in Titograd -- or, rather, in Podgorica in Montenegro in the military

14     police training centre where I was platoon and company commander.  I

15     stayed there until 1978 when I went back to the technical academy as a

16     teacher in the field of traffic where I received my master's degree and

17     continued as a professor at the academy.

18             After the start of the war in 1991, I was in Zagreb.  I was in a

19     sort of blockade there for some six months, and I had to evacuate my

20     family because they were endangered.

21             In 1992 when -- in 1991 when the agreement was reached, I

22     withdrew with my unit to Belgrade, and up until 1992 I continued with my

23     tenure as professor.  I was the head of the department at the academy.

24     And after the start of the war in Bosnia, I felt it my duty to volunteer

25     to become a member of the army of Republika Srpska in order to protect

Page 24068

 1     the people there and to help form the army.  I went to the army of

 2     Republika Srpska in January 1993.

 3        Q.   You said that you felt it your duty to report, to become a member

 4     of the army of Republika Srpska.  Can you tell us why that was so?

 5        A.   By birth I'm a Serb from Bosnia.  I felt it my moral duty to

 6     protect the Serb people who were endangered at the time.  For that

 7     reason, I reported to become a member of the army of Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   What was your first duty and in which unit of the army of

 9     Republika Srpska?  Just take it slowly, please.

10        A.   My first duty as when I actually arrived there in January 1993.

11     I went to Drvar, to the 2nd Krajina Corps, because this is the area that

12     I was born in, if I can put it that way, and I became chief of the

13     traffic and transportation service in the corps.  I stayed there until

14     September 1993 when I was transferred to the Main Staff in Han Pijesak.

15     Also, as a chief of the department for traffic and transportation.

16        Q.   So you arrived in the Main Staff practically to continue with

17     your own line of work; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Could you please explain your position, rather, in this

20     organisational structure of the army?  This traffic and transportation

21     department, where did it belong in terms of establishment?

22        A.   I was in the logistics sector that had several departments,

23     including my own.  The obligation of that department and my own and of my

24     assistants was planning, organising, and carrying out all transports of

25     materiel, technical resource and manpower and movement of personnel at

Page 24069

 1     army level.

 2        Q.   Could you please be a bit clearer?  Could you please tell us what

 3     does this mean, movement of units at the level of the army and of

 4     materiel and technical resources -- just a moment, please.  Let me

 5     finish.

 6             For example, if from a particular area in Herzegovina some units

 7     have to be transported or some technical resources or materiel to another

 8     area, what is your task?  What is the task of your service?

 9        A.   Planning of transportation at army level means the planning and

10     realisation of all these movements among units at corps level.  That is

11     to say, if transport is supposed to take place from the Hercegovina

12     Corps, say a unit was to be transferred to Krajina, that is to say, to

13     the area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps that had to go

14     through my staff -- or, rather, through my department.  So that is where

15     the transport was planned, including fuel and all other material

16     resources that were needed, or if a larger amount of materiel was

17     supposed to be transported from the territory of one corps to the

18     territory of another corps, that's the way that was done too, or if a

19     logistics base was supposed to be supplied with a large amount of

20     materiel from suppliers who could have been in the territory of the

21     republic or outside the territory of the republic, again this went

22     through my department.

23        Q.   What does that mean that it went through your department?  What

24     form did your decision take, this planning of yours, I mean.

25        A.   If the order came from the logistics assistant or from a higher

Page 24070

 1     level, from the commander or the chief of staff, then I would do that

 2     straight away as ordered.  If the request would come from the corps, I

 3     would receive a written request from the corps.  Of course including

 4     elements as to what was needed, what quantity, and when.  Then my

 5     department would make a plan and ensure transport, vehicles, fuel, the

 6     route that would be taken and so on.

 7             As for the time of execution --

 8        Q.   How was your proposal then carried through?

 9        A.   I don't really understand what you're saying.

10        Q.   You planned to use a certain amount of resources on the basis of

11     a certain request, a certain number of buses or trucks, for instance.

12     Who do you submit that to, and how will these resources be used?

13        A.   Well, the plan is submitted to the requesting party and to the

14     unit that is supposed to carry this through.  Say if it's from the

15     automobile battalion of the Main Staff, of course the plan --  the order,

16     rather, should be sent to that unit in terms of who they should report to

17     and what they should do at what time.  And of course whoever requested

18     that should know that their request had been granted and when it would be

19     carried through.

20        Q.   Now I'm going to present a document to you, and then we're going

21     to have a look at it and then you're going to explain it.

22             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we please display 2D550?  We

23     have a draft translation of the document as well.

24        Q.   Do you see the text?  If you cannot see it, then we can perhaps

25     ask for it to be zoomed in.  Thank you.

Page 24071

 1             Please take a look at this and read it slowly, and when you're

 2     ready, then we're going to discuss it.

 3             Can we proceed?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   This is a document from the Main Staff of the army of Republika

 6     Srpska, from the logistics sector precisely.  Could you explain this to

 7     us?  What does this document mean from your point of view, from the point

 8     of view of the transportation service?

 9        A.   Sorry, I haven't seen the signature.

10        Q.   Could you please scroll down so that we see who signed this

11     document.

12             Please go ahead.  Could you please explain the significance of

13     this document to us?  What is being asked for, and what are you

14     proposing?  Who does it come from?

15             It says "Assistance in manpower, transport," et cetera.  Could we

16     please see the top part of the document so the witness can see what it

17     was that I was talking about.  Yes.  Thank you.

18        A.   This request is a response to the request of the Drina Corps when

19     they asked that we provide them with a certain number of vehicles so that

20     they could carry out appropriate transportation tasks.

21             Well, we are telling them that we cannot meet their request

22     because we have similar obligations.  So they can carry out that task

23     using their own resources.

24        Q.   For the transcript, let us just note that the document is dated

25     the 2nd of December, 1994.

Page 24072

 1             I'm going to go back to this now, what it says in this reply.

 2     "Carry out the mentioned tasks with your own resources."  What does that

 3     mean?  Does that mean that your logistics sector had resources of its own

 4     that it sent out to assist certain units?

 5        A.   Yes, that's right.  The Main Staff had a unit that was -- that

 6     was intended for transporting units at battalion level, and they were

 7     used only for such purposes when interventions had to be carried out at

 8     army level.

 9        Q.   If I understand what you're saying, that means that the Main

10     Staff had an opportunity to help in certain situations through this

11     vehicle base of its own.

12        A.   Yes, if there were needs of that kind and if there were requests

13     coming in.

14        Q.   All right.  I'm going to show you another document now.  Could we

15     see 2D549.  Again we have a draft translation as well.

16             Can you see it, sir?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Could you read it and then we'll see what this is all about.

19             This is also a document of the Main Staff, the -- the sector for

20     logistics.  The 4th of June, 1994, is the date.

21             Could you please tell us briefly what the content of this

22     document is, what is being asked for, and what is the response of the

23     logistics base?

24        A.   An order is issued here to the 63rd Automobile Battalion to carry

25     out transportation.  There are three tasks here.  On the 8th of June is

Page 24073

 1     the first one, transport -- I mean, transport, well, in Milici -- I mean

 2     carry out appropriate transport for this Milici Brigade, and the second

 3     task is on the 12th of June that around 40 soldiers are to be transferred

 4     from Han Pijesak to Banja Luka and also the time when this is supposed to

 5     be carried out is specified.

 6             This is transportation between two corps, and that is why the

 7     Main Staff is issuing a task to -- issuing an order to have this task

 8     carried out.

 9        Q.   So how did you put this?  If it has to do with transportation in

10     territory of two or more corps, what is your role then?

11        A.   The role is to carry out planning, to provide transportation

12     resources, and to have this carry out in realtime.  In a realistic time

13     frame work, rather.

14        Q.   In this document it says it was -- it was submitted to the 63rd

15     Automobile Base --

16        A.   Battalion.

17        Q.   Sorry, battalion.  And cc'd to the Drina Corps.  Is that what you

18     were saying a few moments ago, that the Main Staff had resources of its

19     own and from time to time provided assistance to others?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   Am I right if I say that such assistance could be rendered only

22     on the basis of requests?

23        A.   Only.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, was there a similar organisation of

25     the transportation service at lower-level units, corps, brigade?  Down to

Page 24074

 1     which level of unit?

 2        A.   The organisation of transportation -- of the transportation

 3     service at lower-level units, it was based on the same principle.  That

 4     is to say at corps and at corps-level units, there was a transportation

 5     service with its own head and possibly another officer.  This head was

 6     subordinated to his own assistant commander for logistics and to the

 7     commander and the chief of staff.  Just like I was in a way.

 8             Also, there was the desk officer of the transportation service

 9     who also carried out this duty within this unit.  Likewise, he was

10     subordinated to his own assistant commander for logistics, to the

11     commander, and to the chief of staff.

12             Let me add one more thing.  I could not issue orders to the chief

13     of staff, for instance, to the chief of the transportation service in the

14     corps.  This was along professional lines only.

15        Q.   You've just answered my next question.  So the relationship you

16     had with subordinate units -- or, rather, appropriate transportation

17     services, it wasn't one based on hierarchy in terms of issuing orders.

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   So what did it consist of then?  What was the substance of this

20     relationship?

21        A.   The substance was the one that I've already explained, assistance

22     in planning and -- I mean, assistance along professional lines.

23        Q.   All right.  Tell us, please, passenger vehicles, official

24     vehicles that were used by officers of the Main Staff, how and in which

25     way was this question regulated, the use of these vehicles, rather?

Page 24075

 1        A.   At the level of the Main Staff within headquarters there was the

 2     division for passenger vehicles.  It was subordinated to the command of

 3     the staff administration.  There was a commander there.  And as for the

 4     professional aspect of it, I carried out those duties.

 5        Q.   What do you mean when you say planning?

 6        A.   In terms of use, that is say that the officers on the Main Staff

 7     had certain needs, namely, to travel, to tour certain units, et cetera,

 8     so then they had to use vehicles.  Of course they would submit requests.

 9     However, I have to point out that the commander, the chief, and the

10     assistant commanders, they had their own vehicles assigned to them, and

11     they had their own drivers who were with them all the time, whereas

12     others were free, if I can put it that way, and were used upon request

13     only.

14        Q.   If I understood you correctly, only assistant commanders had

15     vehicles and drivers that were assigned to them and that they could use

16     at all times.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Before you answer the question.

18     Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection, leading.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you rephrase it, Mr. Nikolic, please.  It is

21     leading, undoubtedly.

22             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I will rephrase it, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Upon whose request were vehicles assigned for regular use?

24        A.   Some of the senior officers, namely commander, chief of staff,

25     and assistant commanders, had vehicles assigned to them on a permanent

Page 24076

 1     basis complete with drivers.  They were free to use them at any time and

 2     at their own discretion.

 3             Let me stress the following:  that the only exception in addition

 4     to these senior officers was the sector for security and intelligence

 5     where chiefs of departments of that particular sector also had vehicles.

 6     All the other vehicles were used by senior officers as needed for

 7     specific tasks.

 8        Q.   In what way was the right to one's own vehicle and driver

 9     regulated when it comes to these persons you've just indicated?

10        A.   This was regulated in the rules and in commanders' orders.

11        Q.   Do you know which individuals in the security administration or,

12     rather, in the sector for security and intelligence, also had vehicles

13     assigned to them for daily use?

14        A.   In addition to General Tolimir, who was assistant commander, such

15     a right was also enjoyed by the chief of the security department, Colonel

16     Beara, and the chief of the intelligence department, Colonel Salapura.

17        Q.   The vehicles which were assigned to them for their regular use

18     along with drivers, were records kept of them and where for possible

19     review and control?

20        A.   The records were kept in the relevant department, whereas the

21     documentation was processed by my department or specifically by the desk

22     officer of my department.

23        Q.   In what way was the process of assigning drivers regulated?  Was

24     this process by your department or elsewhere?

25        A.   In -- except for the commander's driver who was chosen personally

Page 24077

 1     by the commander, the other drivers were selected by the traffic and

 2     transportation service upon request.

 3        Q.   Do you happen to recall the names of drivers that were used?

 4     Specifically, do you recall the name of Ljubisa Beara's driver?

 5        A.   I do not remember all of them, but I do remember most of them.  I

 6     remember some of their names.  Even today I happened to come across some

 7     of them.  I recall Rajak who was General Milovanovic's driver.  I recall

 8     Gvero's driver, Zoranovic.  I remember Tomovic Milos was Ljubisa Beara

 9     driver.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, stop.  Mr. McCloskey, I let him go because we

11     were talking of names, and I figured out that your intervention --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could just be more -- a little specificity.

13     It was long war.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, exactly.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sure there were lots of drivers.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you are more specific to either a particular

17     period during the war or more than one particular period, please try to

18     do that.

19             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] This is something I was just about

20     to do, to clarify the matter.

21        Q.   In what period of time were you at the Main Staff?

22        A.   As I said, from September 1993 through to the end of the war.

23        Q.   Can you clarify what you mean by the end of the war?

24        A.   Until the Dayton Accords -- or, rather, until 1997.

25        Q.   In that period of time, that's to say between 1993 and 1997, as

Page 24078

 1     you say, did the previously mentioned individuals have drivers on a

 2     regular basis and always the same ones, or did they change?

 3        A.   As a rule they always had the same drivers save for the

 4     situations where the drivers were absent, on sick leave, or where the

 5     individual concerned insisted that his driver be replaced by another.

 6        Q.   If such a situation occurred, who would they turn to to be

 7     assigned a new driver?

 8        A.   To the traffic and transportation department.  In other words, my

 9     own.

10        Q.   And you would then proceed to assign a new driver?

11        A.   That's correct, depending on the tasks, depending on the

12     availability of the driver, depending on the senior officer who required

13     a driver, depending on the driver's abilities, and so on.

14        Q.   Let me put a specific question to you concerning Colonel Beara.

15     If you remember, in the period between 1993 and the end of the war, was

16     at any point of time a request submitted to your service for the driver

17     to be changed?

18        A.   A request for the replacement of a permanent driver was not

19     received.  I don't remember whether a substitute needed to be found

20     because of absence.

21        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, let us look at it realistically.  This has been a

22     long time ago.  This has happened a long time ago, after all.  How can

23     you be so categorical in stating that such a request had not been

24     received?  What is the basis of your statement?  What is the basis of the

25     fact that you can make it statement with such certainty?

Page 24079

 1        A.   As far as substituting a driver of the senior officers goes, I

 2     can say that such requests were very few and far between and were filed

 3     only when strictly necessary.  Normally, such a senior officer and his

 4     driver would get close.  And if the driver did his job correctly and

 5     properly, such requests would not be filed by the senior officer.

 6        Q.   War is a tragic situation.  Did there occur a situation where a

 7     driver fell ill or was killed or injured and required a replacement?

 8        A.   The drivers were not wounded or killed.  There may have been

 9     illnesses, but they were quite short.

10        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, in what way was the control of the vehicles assigned

11     for permanent use to these senior officers carried out if there was any

12     control?

13        A.   In addition to the traffic booklet, every vehicle had a vehicle

14     work log where, on a monthly basis, records were kept on the amount of

15     fuel used be and the kilometres of distance travelled in order to be able

16     to make an analysis of the cost-effectiveness of the use of the vehicle

17     at the end of the month or, conversely, of the possible abuse of its use.

18        Q.   The -- which data was entered into the vehicle work log of the

19     vehicles assigned to the mentioned officers for permanent use?

20        A.   The cover page of the vehicle work log had the name of the

21     driver, the basic information about the vehicle, chassis, licence plate,

22     type of fuel and the amount of fuel received for the particular month.

23     Inside the work log the routes and the distances travelled were supposed

24     to be entered.

25             Now, when -- in the work logs used by these particular senior

Page 24080

 1     officers who had vehicles assign to them for permanent use, there only

 2     the distances travelled were entered and not the routes.  This was done

 3     for security reasons, so that such confidential information may not be

 4     disclosed.

 5        Q.   The data you've just referred to, was this the subject of some

 6     regulation or rules dictating that this is the way the work logs should

 7     be kept, or did the situation vary on a case-to-case basis?

 8        A.   This was not specifically regulated in the rules equally for all

 9     the vehicles.  This was probably the practice introduced pursuant to a

10     commander's order.

11        Q.   What sort of information was written for the other type of

12     vehicles that were assigned as needed for specific tasks?

13        A.   For these other vehicles which were used by different senior

14     officers at different times every movement of the vehicle was

15     specifically recorded in terms of the route taken, distances travelled,

16     the destination, and of course they had to record the total amount of

17     kilometres travelled on a particular day.

18        Q.   Can you recall for some of the officers, and specifically for

19     Ljubisa Beara, and for others if you remember, which vehicles were

20     assigned to him in the period between 1993 and the end of the war?  Did

21     he have only one vehicle at his disposal that he used or were there

22     several?

23        A.   In principle, every senior officer was assigned one passenger

24     vehicle, except for the commander, a chief of staff, and Colonel Beara,

25     who also had an all-terrain vehicle of the Puha make.

Page 24081


 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The Puh make, interpreter's correction.

 3             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you tell us if you know which vehicles were use by some of

 5     the other officers?

 6        A.   Well, in principle, yes.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we get the time frame?

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  [Overlapping speakers]

10             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I think that I said that I was

11     referring to the period between 1993 and the end of the war, which was

12     the period during which Mr. Kerkez was the chief of the service.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's not helpful.  It's a long period of time,

15     and if -- if we could focus on the time period in question, I think it

16     would be a lot clearer.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  It's up to you, Mr. Nikolic.  At the end of

18     the day you've brought this witness to give testimony, possibly to gain

19     some advantage from it.

20             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, in 1995 - let us focus on that year - what was the

22     vehicle use by Ljubisa Beara?

23        A.   I've already said that drivers changed very rarely.  Likewise, if

24     there was no call for that, if the vehicles were not damaged or such

25     like, I can claim with certainty that in 1995 Colonel Beara used that

Page 24082

 1     particular all-terrain vehicle and that he used the Golf 2 vehicle, the

 2     colour of which I don't remember.  I do remember the make, however.

 3        Q.   The subject of this trial are the events surrounding Srebrenica.

 4     Let me ask you this:  In that period of time when the Srebrenica action

 5     was in course up until the end of the month of July, did the driver and

 6     the vehicle change?

 7        A.   I can reliably say that Colonel Beara had the same driver and the

 8     same vehicle and that he used them at a later date as well.

 9        Q.   Tell me, where were you during operation Srebrenica?

10        A.   Before the commencement of the operation, that is to say between

11     28 June and 6 July, I was on furlough visiting my family.  Later on I was

12     at the command post.

13        Q.   So you went back to your duties on the 6th of July?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   Evidently, these are events that one remembers well because they

16     are quite unfortunate.  Let us focus on that particular period of time.

17             At that time did Ljubisa Beara change his driver?  Did he submit

18     a request to that effect to your service, and did he change his vehicle?

19        A.   There were no such requests.

20        Q.   Thank you.  How did you find out about operation Srebrenica and

21     in which way?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  It may be just a translation issue,

23     but I -- this is being translated as Operation Srebrenica and that --

24     there's no -- I'm not familiar of any such operation, but if what you're

25     saying is that the operation regarding Srebrenica, which may be -- I have

Page 24083

 1     no objection.  But if there is an Operation Srebrenica, we need a

 2     foundation to establish it.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.  It's not just --

 4             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] My colleague is right.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  All right.  If your --

 6             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] My colleague is right.  What I

 7     meant was operations around Srebrenica.  I didn't mean it by way of an

 8     official name.  I think we all know what we are talking about, and I hope

 9     that this is a clarification.

10        Q.   So, Mr. Kerkez, there is no doubt in my mind that you found out

11     about this operation around Srebrenica, so how did you find out?

12        A.   Like most people I found out from the media.  When it started, it

13     was made public.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note.  We can barely speaker due

15     to background noise.  Could all microphones please be switched off.

16     Thank you.

17             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   In view of the fact that you arrived from vacation on the 6th of

19     July?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   In which period did you find out about that?  Was it as soon as

22     you arrived?  Could you please be more specific?

23        A.   Well, I don't remember exactly, but after two or three days,

24     after my arrival, that is.

25        Q.   While you were away, while you were on vacation, who replaced you

Page 24084

 1     at your position?

 2        A.   I had two desk officers, Lieutenant Viskovic and Lieutenant

 3     Mirovic.  One of them always had to be there at the department.

 4        Q.   I assume that when you returned it was customary that you would

 5     ask, like anyone would, what happened at work while you were away.  So

 6     did you ask your assistant to report to you about what had been happening

 7     during the period while you were away?

 8        A.   Of course I expressed such an interest.  Well, that was my duty,

 9     if I can put it that way.  In addition to regular duties, there weren't

10     any special requests.

11        Q.   Regardless of whether it was formal or informal, there certainly

12     was information provided about the preceding period.  Did he indicate to

13     you any significant events that took place in your absence, I mean,

14     requests vis-a-vis your service?

15        A.   No.

16             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we take a break

17     now?  I'm going to move on to another subject that will certainly be

18     important.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Certainly, Mr. Nikolic.  We'll have a 25-minute

20     break.

21             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Nikolic.

25             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before continuing

Page 24085

 1     with the examination, I would like to inform you that in accordance with

 2     your suggestion we talked to our colleague from the OTP in relation to

 3     the testimony of witness Spiro Pereula.  We agreed that the direct

 4     examination start today, and our colleagues from the OTP would like to

 5     cross-examine on Monday.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 7             Yes, Mr. McCloskey, do you confirm that?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, but we probably won't get that far, but --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think so.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. Nicholls is available to cross-examine today

11     possibly, but he's not exactly sure yet, but I don't think we'll get that

12     far.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you both.  Let's proceed.

14             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, let us now go back to the previous question regarding

16     combat operations around Srebrenica, you said that you heard about them

17     from the media.  When did that happen?  When did you receive this initial

18     information about these combat operations?

19        A.   I returned from Belgrade on the 6th in the afternoon.  I heard

20     the first information after two, three, or four days, as I said.  After

21     that, that is.

22        Q.   In relation to that, did you make any comments with regard to

23     these operations with your colleagues within the service or some other

24     colleagues?

25        A.   Well, of course, like concerning every new information.

Page 24086

 1        Q.   And did you learn anything?

 2        A.   No significant information apart from what I had already heard

 3     through the media.

 4        Q.   In preparation for this testimony we discussed this topic, and

 5     you said that after all, you did go towards Potocari.  Could you please

 6     tell us why and how did this happen for you to set out towards Potocari?

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection, leading on a topic.  There's just no

 9     reason to do that.  I don't understand.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.  It is definitely leading.  I

11     mean, instead of him testifying where he went to and when, you're telling

12     him.  On the other hand, we all know that we are getting there because it

13     was part of the information that was provided to the Prosecution, and

14     which we heard before in any case.

15             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase the question.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please.  Thank you.

17             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, did you go to Potocari at all?

19        A.   Well, since I heard this information that these combat operations

20     around Srebrenica had started, I also heard this information that

21     evacuation had started, evacuation of the population from Srebrenica, and

22     that this evacuation was taking place using the vehicles provided by the

23     army.

24             I do not recall the exact date, but I know that on the second day

25     after that, with a view to receiving information or, rather, seeing

Page 24087

 1     whether any assistance was needed by the transportation organ of the

 2     Drina Corps and to see whether they had enough vehicles and whether any

 3     intervention was needed, I went to the spot to see for myself.

 4        Q.   In your answer you said that you heard that evacuation was taking

 5     place using vehicles provided by the army.  Could you please specify?

 6     What was your knowledge exactly as to how the army had provided this --

 7     or, rather, from that point of view did your service provide these

 8     vehicles and plan for the use of these vehicles?

 9        A.   That is why I went on that second day to Potocari, because there

10     weren't any requests, and my department had not provided any kind of

11     transportation vehicles for this task.

12        Q.   Where did you set out from?

13        A.   Rado Vickovic, my assistant, drove the vehicle and I was there

14     with Colonel Simovic and I set out sometime during the morning on that

15     day from Han Pijesak, that is to say from the logistics sector -- or,

16     rather, from the locality where my service was.

17        Q.   Was the headquarters of your service in Han Pijesak?

18        A.   The logistics sector and the sector for morale had its

19     headquarters at the hotel in Han Pijesak.

20        Q.   Tell me, with these three colleagues you set out.  Could you

21     describe the road you took from Han Pijesak to Potocari?

22        A.   Well, the only road that exists is Han

23     Pijesak-Vlasenica-Milici-Konjevic Polje-Bratunac, and towards Srebrenica

24     to Potocari.

25        Q.   Along that road to Potocari did you notice -- or, rather, did you

Page 24088

 1     see any combat operations?

 2        A.   Then along that road I did not notice any, although I did hear

 3     gunfire from afar.

 4        Q.   When you arrive in Potocari, at what time?

 5        A.   Sometime around noon.  Was it a few minutes or after, that's not

 6     something I can say with any degree of certainty now.

 7        Q.   Could you please describe what it was that you saw in Potocari

 8     and who you found there?

 9        A.   When I arrived in Potocari I observed a number of vehicles lined

10     up and a larger presence of the Muslim population, including women,

11     children, young men, and the elderly who were boarding the column of

12     vehicles.  I also came across units of the civilian police, army units,

13     and -- and a group of UNPROFOR soldiers securing the whole process of

14     boarding the buses, the vehicles.

15        Q.   Who did you see of the senior officers there?

16        A.   Since the army was present there was also a number of senior

17     officers there who I knew by sight from the Drina Corps.  I only knew the

18     chief of the transportation service, Colonel Krsmanovic by name.  I

19     approached him and talked to him.

20        Q.   What was it that you talked about with Mr. Krsmanovic?

21        A.   The conversation had to do with the transportation effort,

22     whether there were enough transportation resources and whether there were

23     any difficulties.  His response was that everything had been provided for

24     and that no assistance was needed.

25        Q.   Were there many vehicles there, or was it the usual number of

Page 24089

 1     vehicles that the army normally required?

 2        A.   In addition to military vehicles who were normally rather small,

 3     there were military buses, and there were also trailer trucks with

 4     civilian licence plates.

 5        Q.   Did you discuss the large presence of vehicles there since, as

 6     you say, the Main Staff had not received any requests for vehicles?

 7        A.   Of course.  Having observed the vehicles there, I asked how they

 8     came to be there.  I was told that civilian vehicles had been

 9     requisitioned, commandeered.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection to the form of the question.  He never

12     said the Main Staff never received any requests.  He said something about

13     him not receiving requests or his unit, but the main -- well, the Main

14     Staff is bigger, obviously.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.  That seems to be correct.  I

16     don't recall the witness having brought in the Main Staff.

17             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honours, but he

18     talked about his service, and he explained the nature and the duties of

19     his service within the Main Staff.  If I remember correctly, he talked

20     about his service, conduct, and planning upon the order or request from

21     one of the units.  That's why I put the question as I did.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's proceed.

23             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   How long did you stay at the location?

25        A.   For the maximum of 20 to 30 minutes.

Page 24090

 1        Q.   Where did you head next?

 2        A.   I went back to the Main Staff along the same route.

 3        Q.   Can you describe your journey back to the headquarters in Han

 4     Pijesak?  Did you happen to come across the columns on your way and were

 5     there any combat activities along the way?

 6        A.   As I was on my way back on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, we

 7     were nearing Konjevic Polje when I caught up along the road with groups

 8     of soldiers whom I recognised as members of the Muslim army.  They were

 9     coming out of the forest in groups of a number of soldiers.  Some of them

10     carried weapons, others didn't.  Some of them were going -- or moving on

11     their own and others were led by our soldiers.

12        Q.   What was your reaction to such a scene?

13        A.   I assumed that they were attempting to reach the

14     Muslim-controlled territory in the direction of Tuzla.

15        Q.   How far along your way did you notice these individual groups of

16     men?

17        A.   All the way until the crossroads between Zvornik and Han Pijesak

18     and Bratunac-Konjevic Polje.  In other words, I would see them all the

19     way to the crossroads.  Beyond that from Konjevic Polje towards Kasaba,

20     the distance is of some 100 metres, on the roadside where there was a

21     football pitch I noticed a group of Muslim soldiers seated on the grass

22     of the football pitch.  At the edge of the football pitch there was a

23     reception point.  There were several desks there, and members of -- or

24     soldiers of the VRS seated at the desks registering the soldiers who were

25     there, the soldiers having been disarmed and their name placed on the

Page 24091

 1     record would be taken to join the others seated in the centre of the

 2     football pitch.

 3        Q.   How long did you stay there?

 4        A.   Since the football pitch is some two metres away from the road,

 5     we pulled over on the roadside close to the reception point and stayed

 6     there for some two to three minutes to take in what was going on, because

 7     could I not recognise the senior soldiers who were there.  We then

 8     resumed our trip.

 9        Q.   Where did you go to next?

10        A.   Toward headquarters.

11        Q.   Where?

12        A.   In Han Pijesak.

13             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Let me make a correction, Your

14     Honours.

15        Q.   On page 3, lines 5 and 6, let us clarify where the headquarters

16     of your service was and what the name of the service was.

17        A.   The headquarters of the logistics sector with all the attendant

18     services was at a hotel in Han Pijesak.  The exact title is the

19     Department of the Traffic and Transportation Service in the Sector of

20     Logistics.

21        Q.   In addition to your sector, were there other sectors represented

22     there as well?

23        A.   Of course.  The logistics centre comprised several departments;

24     namely, technical services, quartermaster services, transportation

25     services, construction services, Medical Corps services, and veterinarian

Page 24092

 1     services.

 2        Q.   It was necessary for us to intervene and to go back to that point

 3     in the transcript in order to clarify where the headquarters of your

 4     service was.  Let us go back to where we left off.

 5             Where did you head to next, and when did you return to your

 6     headquarters in Han Pijesak?

 7        A.   If I was in Potocari at around 1200 hours and stayed there for

 8     roughly half an hour, the trip from Potocari to Han Pijesak took an hour

 9     and a half roughly.  So it could have been past 1400 hours.

10        Q.   Were the two colleagues of yours with you throughout that time?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, when we spoke of the automobile unit at the outset, I

13     mentioned Mr. Beara and his driver.  How long have you known Mr. Beara?

14        A.   I got to know him when I joined the Main Staff.  In other words,

15     in September 1993.

16        Q.   Along the Han Pijesak-Potocari road and on your way back in

17     Potocari or at any point at any section of the road, did you come across

18     Colonel Beara?

19        A.   No.  I claim with certainty that I did not.

20        Q.   1993 was a long time ago, but nevertheless can you tell us and

21     describe for us the physical appearance of Colonel Beara?  If you can,

22     what you remember of his physical appearance.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Again, Mr. McCloskey, time frame?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think there is -- it may just be a typing

25     mistake, because we see 1993 on the thing, and again if that's the time

Page 24093

 1     frame, fine, but 1995, I think would --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Are you interested in 1993 or 1995, Mr. Nikolic?

 3             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in 1995, or more

 4     precisely, the trip to Potocari and back.  However, I mentioned 1993 in

 5     order for the witness to be able to tell us since when he had known

 6     Mr. Beara so that we could gauge how realistic his description of Colonel

 7     Beara is.

 8        Q.   Can you answer the question, please, if you can?

 9        A.   Colonel Beara was a tall man, some 190 centimetres.  He was

10     always grey, but he didn't have a receding hairline as he does now, and

11     of medium build.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kerkez.  I have completed my cross-examination --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Examination, interpreter's correction.

14             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you so much, Mr. Nicholls --

16     Mr. Nikolic.

17             Now, Mr. Zivanovic, you had asked for ten minutes.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I will not cross-examine this witness, Your

19     Honour.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

21             Ms. Nikolic, you had asked for a quarter of an hour.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I will

23     have no questions of this witness.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Mr. Lazarevic, you had

25     asked for ten minutes.

Page 24094

 1             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I hope I will make it in ten minutes.  I will

 2     have some cross-examination for this witness.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Take your time.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel.  My name is Aleksandar

 6     Lazarevic and together with my colleagues I represent Mr. Ljubomir

 7     Borovcanin.  I should like to put a couple of questions to you.  The

 8     examination won't be long, but it will have to do with some matters from

 9     the examination-in-chief, and it will serve to clarify some matters.

10             In the course of your evidence today you said at what time and on

11     what day you were present in Potocari and what you had occasion to see.

12     I would like to put a number of questions to you on that score.

13             You said that when you observed the larger group of civilians,

14     women, children, and others in Potocari, the civilian police and the army

15     helped evacuate them.  So I'll put a couple of questions about that.

16             When you said the civilian police, the reason for you saying that

17     is that you were able to see that quite clearly on the basis of their

18     uniforms.  They had blue uniforms, did they not?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You were also able to observe the civilian police vehicles, white

21     in colour, that were present in Potocari at the time; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   During that brief stay of yours, you said it lasted some 20 to 30

24     minutes, you had occasion to see UNPROFOR forces mingling with the

25     civilian police, the army, and the refugees there, is that right?

Page 24095

 1        A.   Yes.  A number of them.  It was not a large unit, put it that

 2     way.  It was more of a patrol, a group of them.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.  You were also able to observe that UNPROFOR

 4     members, and I don't think that's contested, that they were members of

 5     the DutchBat, that UNPROFOR members were also taking part in the

 6     evacuation effort because they were assisting the population boarding the

 7     buses in an orderly fashion so as to prevent chaos.  Were you able to

 8     observe something like that?

 9        A.   Yes.  Probably there very presence there helped avert any

10     problems.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Another question in connection with this.  During

12     this brief stay in Potocari, did you observe any sort of indecent conduct

13     or misconduct on the part of the -- these units vis-a-vis the general

14     population, that they beat them up, insulted them, used derogatory

15     language, or force them to board the buses or anything of that sort?

16        A.   No, I did not observe anything that would resemble that.  The

17     evacuation was taking its course in an orderly fashion.

18        Q.   Thank you.  As you told us you met Colonel Krsmanovic from the

19     Drina Corps on that occasion.  You had a brief conversation with him.

20             In the course of the conversation did Colonel Krsmanovic tell you

21     who had secured the fuel necessary for the evacuation?

22        A.   He did.  I was told that the fuel had not been received from the

23     Main Staff, or that is to say from the army of the -- of the Republika

24     Srpska.

25        Q.   Let me put it differently.  Did you receive information that the

Page 24096

 1     United Nations, or, rather, the UNPROFOR forces had secured fuel for that

 2     operation?  Was that the sort of information you received?

 3        A.   I can't be sure.  I can't confirm that.

 4        Q.   Very well.  You also testified that you travelled along the road

 5     from Potocari to Bratunac, and then you said that you proceeded from

 6     Bratunac all the way to an intersection at Konjevic Polje.  You said that

 7     on your way you noticed a larger and smaller groups of Muslims, some

 8     armed, others unarmed, who were coming down the slope and surrendering to

 9     the members of the VRS.  Did you on that occasion observe any sort of

10     misconduct by any of the members of the VRS as you saw them on the

11     roadside?

12        A.   No.  I believe that what I was able to observe was proper.

13        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

14             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would just like the witness

15     to be shown another document that we will be using.

16        Q.   However, before that I would like to put another question to you.

17             Radoslav Jankovic, is that a name that rings a bell to you?

18     Colonel Radoslav Jankovic.

19        A.   Jankovic?  No.  I don't remember.

20        Q.   Colonel Radoslav Jankovic, to the best of our knowledge, was on

21     the intelligence organ of the Main Staff.  Perhaps that may assist you in

22     remembering?

23        A.   It depends on the period involved.

24        Q.   Perhaps I'm going to clarify that a bit now when we look at this

25     document.

Page 24097

 1             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up in

 2     e-court 5D5113.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm being informed that this document doesn't show

 4     up on e-court.  Are you -- are you sure about the number?

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honour, this document is already admitted

 6     into evidence for a long time.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  As 5D5113?

 8             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] It's 5DP, 5DP.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  P113.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  5DP113.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, that's the one.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, could you please have a look at this

13     document.  I assume that you haven't seen it until now, so you may need

14     some time in order to familiarise yourself with the content.  On the

15     right-hand side you have the document in Serbian.

16        A.   Could it please be zoomed in a bit?

17        Q.   I think that will be feasible.  Yes, see?

18             Did you now have occasion at that familiarise yourself with it?

19        A.   I've read it.

20        Q.   So you see in this document Colonel Radoslav Jankovic reports

21     that on the 13th of July, 1995, at 2000 hours the evacuation of the

22     entire Muslim population from the former enclave of Srebrenica was

23     completed.

24             Does this perhaps jog your memory?  Can you now perhaps remember

25     who Mr. Jankovic was?

Page 24098

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

 4             Madam Fauveau?  No cross?

 5             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Krgovic, you asked for 15 minutes.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I will use it.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel.  My name is Dragan

11     Krgovic, and on behalf of the Defence of General Gvero, I'm going to put

12     a few questions to you in relation to your testimony here today.

13             In your response to my learned friend Mr. Nikolic's question, you

14     mentioned a few names of drivers who drove certain people from the Main

15     Staff.  I'm going to ask you specifically about my client.

16             In 1995, who were the people who drove General Gvero, if you

17     remember?  You mentioned a name, Zoranovic.  Is this Nedeljko Zoranovic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Apart from Zoranovic did any other drivers drive General Gvero at

20     the time?

21        A.   It was -- I don't known whether it was in that period.

22        Q.   1995?

23        A.   I know that General Gvero was driven by two other drivers.  Now,

24     whether that was precisely in that period, that is something I'm not

25     quite sure of.  One is Rajak, and one is Macanovic or, rather, the other

Page 24099

 1     one is Macanovic.  Now, was it precisely in that period of time, I cannot

 2     assert that with 100 per cent certainty.

 3        Q.   Do you remember which vehicle was use the by General Gvero in

 4     1995?  According to the information I have, he used an Opel car.

 5        A.   It was the driver who drove the general.  General Gvero did have

 6     an Opel.  That is correct.  One was Vectra, but the other one I'm not

 7     sure because one of the two was damaged.

 8        Q.   Do you remember that General Gvero in the beginning of March,

 9     1995, had a car accident with one of these vehicles and that he was

10     injured in the accident?

11        A.   This rarely happens, especially with ranking officers, so I

12     remember this very well.  It was the Opel Vectra, and that is true.  That

13     did happen.

14        Q.   The vehicle was repaired after that?

15        A.   Yes, after a certain period of time.

16        Q.   Do you remember where the vehicle had been repaired?

17        A.   I'm not quite sure, but I think it was at a service station in

18     SerbiaLoznica, Mali Zvornik, something like that.

19        Q.   Do you recall perhaps what the name was of the service station or

20     the name of the man or the nickname of the man who repaired the vehicle?

21        A.   I don't remember the name, but I think that the service station

22     was called Lamela.

23        Q.   Another question.  Do you remember the colour of the vehicle

24     driven by General Gvero?  According to the information that I have, the

25     vehicle driven by General Gvero after this accident was light green.

Page 24100

 1        A.   Yes, that was the colour of that vehicle.

 2        Q.   Did General Gvero ever drive a black vehicle?

 3        A.   As far as I can remember, no.

 4        Q.   Do you know of him taking some other vehicle at some points in

 5     time?  As far as I know that was not the case, that some officer would

 6     take another officers's car without that being recorded by your service.

 7        A.   If another vehicle was being used, that had to be with my

 8     knowledge because the driver would have to come with the vehicle, so to

 9     speak.

10        Q.   In 1995 you are not aware of any such case with General Gvero?

11        A.   No, I do not recall.  I don't think that any such thing happened.

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further

13     questions of this witness.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

15             Mr. Haynes, Mr. Sarapa, do you have any questions?

16             MR. SARAPA:  A few questions.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  [No

19     interpretation] ... your question if I may.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  I didn't -- okay.  I don't know, but we didn't have

21     interpretation of what you were saying, Mr. Krgovic.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May I put another question that I

23     omitted to put a few minutes ago?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 24101

 1        Q.   The vehicles that General Gvero used, did they have any radio

 2     equipment in them?

 3        A.   No.  No.  It was only the commander and the chief of staff that

 4     had such equipment.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

 7             Mr. Sarapa.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning I'm Mr. Djordje Sarapa on Defence

10     team of Vinko Pandurevic.  I'm going to put a few questions to you.  Most

11     of them will be very brief and you will be able to them by a simple yes

12     or no.  Can you please tell me, your superior was the assistant logistics

13     commander, right?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   As for responsibility for fuel supplies and the use of fuel --

16     use of fuel -- I just need to wait for a second.  As for responsibility

17     for fuel supplies, that was under the technical service; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Generally at a unit level, the Main Staff, the corps, brigades,

20     et cetera?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   In view of the position that you held over a few years, could you

23     describe for us briefly how the army of Republika Srpska was supplied

24     with fuel?

25        A.   Since in principle when fuel arrives in bases and is allocated to

Page 24102

 1     specific units, I wanted it to be used in an economical way.  The army

 2     was supplied by fuel mostly through purchases from manufacturers or

 3     traders in the republic or outside the republic.

 4        Q.   Could you tell us something about the distribution of fuel in

 5     units?

 6        A.   The distribution of fuel was carried out by the logistics

 7     sector or, rather, the technical service depending on the tasks that

 8     would follow and, of course, the orders of the Main Staff.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  While responding to Mr. Nikolic's questions you

10     mentioned the Automobile Battalion.  It was stationed in Zvornik; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   That was true in July 1995 as well, right?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   Do you remember who commanded the battalion?

15        A.   The battalion commander at the time was Lieutenant Radakovic.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I assume that you knew Mr. Radisav Pantic, chief of

17     the transportation service of the Zvornik Brigade?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I assume that you had personal contacts with him.

20        A.   That's right, during the war.

21        Q.   Outside the regular chain of command, you sometimes give Pantic

22     help and did he help you out too?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Could you briefly explain to us how that happened and in what

25     cases, for instance?

Page 24103

 1        A.   Well, there were a few such cases, if I can put it that way.

 2     However, this had to do with the use of battalion vehicles that was under

 3     the command of the Main Staff.  If I can put it this way:  The vehicles

 4     were located right by the brigade command.  In order to simplify the

 5     procedure of use, then sometimes, if I can put it that way, sometimes the

 6     corps level was skipped.  So Pantic would directly address me instead of

 7     going through the corps command.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us -- if we look at a particular

 9     document, an order or a document of any kind, what does it mean when it

10     says "na znande," "for the knowledge of," literally?

11        A.   Well, that means that the command is being informed, or some

12     organ of a particular piece of information or an order, if I can put it

13     that way, that does not pertain to them directly, but it does pertain to

14     their unit.  So whoever is addressing the order is informing the superior

15     about that too.

16        Q.   On direct examination you mentioned the procedure whereby drivers

17     were selected for individual senior officers.  Can you tell us, did the

18     security organs have a role to play in the selection of drivers?

19        A.   Yes.  They were entitled to choose.

20        Q.   You mean for themselves?  I believe we misunderstand each other.

21     What I'd like to know is the whether you have any knowledge about the

22     possible role of the security organ in the selection of a driver for,

23     let's say, a commander or a chief of staff.

24        A.   Of course.  They had the duty to vet a given individual and see

25     if he or she was suitable for the job because it had to be the sort of

Page 24104

 1     person who could maintain confidentiality.

 2        Q.   Very well.

 3             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can document P295 be shown.  Pages

 4     603 and 604, please.

 5        Q.   Do you see it on your screen, Mr. Kerkez?

 6        A.   Yes.  This is the vehicle work log.

 7        Q.   Let's disregard the name and other data contained here.

 8     Generally speaking, I would like you to help us with how a vehicle work

 9     log was fill out.  We have the full name of the driver, and then we have

10     the information about the fuel, and then the first line to the left,

11     date.

12             Was one supposed to place the date when fuel and lubricants were

13     taken?

14        A.   Yes, because this particular box was supposed to be filled out by

15     the person serving fuel.

16        Q.   Thank you.  To the far right it says signature of the operator or

17     person handling something.  Who did that refer to?

18        A.   To the person issuing fuel.

19        Q.   I suppose the signature should be placed on the same day as the

20     fuel is being distributed?

21        A.   Of course.

22        Q.   Can we turn to the following page, please.  It says the -- the

23     running of the work order of the vehicle, machinery or device.  And then

24     we have the left column of the date.  Who fills out that column?

25        A.   The driver.

Page 24105

 1        Q.   Both the date and the route taken?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   When is the driver supposed to fill out the date and the route?

 4        A.   As he sets out for his assignment.

 5        Q.   On the day the assignment is supposed to be carried out?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Then we have the initial status in kilometres.  Who is supposed

 8     to fill this out?

 9        A.   The driver.  He is supposed to copy the figure indicating

10     kilometres at the beginning of the month.

11        Q.   And the routes?

12        A.   Well, everything that pertains to this matter, save for the last

13     column which is to be signed by the user of the vehicle.

14        Q.   And that is who?

15        A.   Well, the person who the driver drove or worked for.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You've given me the answers I was interested in.  I

17     thank you for that.  And I have no further questions for this witness.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

19             Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

22        Q.   Good morning, Colonel.  My name is Peter McCloskey --

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   -- and I represent the Office of the Prosecutor.  I'll be asking

25     you a few questions this morning and this afternoon.

Page 24106

 1             First on a topic you just mentioned.  How is it that you know

 2     anything or are involved with fuel?

 3        A.   That's my profession.

 4        Q.   Can you explain that in more detail, where fuel fits into your

 5     job, especially in 1995?

 6        A.   The consumption of fuel by a vehicle is one of the indicators of

 7     the exploitation and the cost-effectiveness of a job, and it falls under

 8     one of the tasks of the transportation service.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So that -- it's your job to know about shipments of fuel

10     across corps lines to various units, things like that?

11        A.   Essentially, yes, although that is the duty of the technical

12     service.  The quantities and times of shipment fall within the

13     responsibility of the technical service.  I am only supposed to use the

14     fuel economically.

15        Q.   So you should know about large amounts of fuel that are sent to

16     various operations to see to it that it can be used economically?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Okay.  You had mentioned that you got your supplies of fuel from

19     various places inside the republic.  You also mentioned you, of course,

20     got it outside the republic.  When you say getting fuel outside the

21     republic, where are you referring to?  And I'm mostly talking about 1995.

22        A.   I knew of the movement of fuel from the point the fuel reached

23     the logistics base and was supposed to be distributed to units.  How the

24     fuel reached the base was the responsibility of the technical service.

25     Still, I was familiar with the way the bases were supplied in general

Page 24107

 1     terms but not specifically.

 2        Q.   My question was, sir, where -- you said the fuel came from

 3     outside the republic.  Can you tell me where?

 4        A.   That piece of information is known, but I don't know exactly

 5     where from.

 6        Q.   Well, it doesn't need to be exact.  Where were you getting most

 7     of your fuel, Colonel?

 8        A.   Believe me that this was the responsibility of the technical

 9     service, and I cannot state this with any certainty.

10        Q.   Where do you think you were getting most of your fuel from in

11     1995?

12             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Objection.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau, why?

14             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Because this question is a

15     speculative one.  The witness apparently does not know where from

16     exactly.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  He either knows or he doesn't, I think.  I mean, if

18     he doesn't, obviously he's not to speculate.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is cross-examination.  It's a perfectly fair

20     question, especially given the fact that I think everyone in the world

21     knows where the fuel came from.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead.  Can you answer the question?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although this was not my

24     responsibility, every single senior officer of the army knew that the

25     only source of supply was Serbia.

Page 24108

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  That wasn't -- shouldn't be that hard, okay?

 3             And who in Serbia was the principal provider that is known to

 4     every senior officer in the Main Staff?

 5             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Objection once again,

 6     Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

 8             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] What is the relevance of this

 9     question in this trial?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I didn't bring up fuel, Mr. President.  This is

12     an issue that's been brought up.  He testified fuel was coming from the

13     inside and outside.  I think the credibility is an issue, and I think

14     fuel is a big issue, especially regarding what he had said about his

15     involvement in this operation.  Fuel is a massive issue, and these

16     objections are -- well, I won't say what they are.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

18             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes.  Your Honour, my objection was

19     not about fuel.  It was about the responsibility in the Republic of

20     Serbia.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not concerned about the cost of fuel.  I'm

22     concerned about responsibility, of course, Mr. President, as is this

23     Court.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's close it here.  Let me consult

25     with my colleagues, please.

Page 24109

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  We can't see any validity to your objection,

 3     Madam Fauveau.  It's a question that completely relates to the subject

 4     matter of this person's -- of this witness's testimony.  So let's go

 5     ahead.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Sir, was the VJ providing the VRS with fuel in 1995?

 8        A.   I said that the technical service supplied bases with fuel, and I

 9     don't know where they obtained it from although it was general knowledge

10     that it came from Serbia.

11        Q.   Was it also general knowledge that it came from the VJ?

12        A.   I don't know about that.

13        Q.   You have no knowledge at all whether the VJ was supporting the

14     VRS in the provisions of fuel?  You've just said that fuel was your

15     profession, part of your profession.  And, sir, I remind you you are

16     under oath.

17        A.   I know that, and I repeat, I was aware of what happened to fuel

18     as it reached bases from where it was distributed to various units.  How

19     fuel reached bases is something I don't have specific information about.

20        Q.   Weren't you responsible for fuel all over the areas controlled by

21     the -- the VRS?  All the corps areas of responsibility, those were --

22     that was your area of fuel and fuel transport; right?

23        A.   That's correct.  Only within the army, but not -- I wasn't

24     concerned with how and from whom fuel was procured.

25        Q.   Well, who arranged for the transport of the fuel that came from

Page 24110

 1     Serbia to you?  Were the -- was the VJ or the Serbs always generous

 2     enough to supply their own vehicles and bring it in their own trucks?  Or

 3     didn't sometimes you have to go over and get some yourself?

 4        A.   I personally never did.  I was concerned with organisation, but I

 5     only knew where the fuel was supposed to be taken from and to where.  For

 6     the rest, I wasn't informed about it.

 7        Q.   Are you saying you have no knowledge whatsoever of any VRS

 8     transportation assets ever going to Serbia to get fuel?

 9        A.   The army vehicles were not used because the army did not have

10     large capacity tanks, tank trucks.

11        Q.   So you do know the kinds of vehicles that went to get fuel.  What

12     vehicles went to get fuel from Serbia?  Talk to us about these large

13     capacity tank trucks, and we won't need to spend very long if you just

14     tell us.  These are quick and easy questions.

15        A.   It is an easy question.  In order for a certain quantity or

16     amount of fuel to be transported, the appropriate vehicle for that, a

17     tank truck or a cistern is required.  If the vehicle is supposed to cover

18     larger distances, it is only logical to use a vehicle of higher tonnage.

19        Q.   Of course.  And your -- the logistics section was involved in

20     the -- as you call it, the organising and the planning and the carrying

21     out of the transport of the trucks over to Serbia and the transport of

22     the fuel back, wasn't it?

23        A.   Yes.  They were large capacity tank trucks.

24        Q.   And your unit at the Main Staff was responsible for seeing to it

25     that they got to Serbia and got back as you've described your job,

Page 24111

 1     organising, planning, carrying out.

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Now, you said you were involved -- and I won't stay on this

 4     forever, but you said you were involved in helping what we're all

 5     thinking about these days, conserve or figure out fuel.  Can you give me

 6     an estimate, just a very rough estimate, of how many tonnes of fuel came

 7     from Serbia, to your knowledge, that your unit was involved in in 1995?

 8     Just roughly.

 9        A.   It was not my task to keep fuel.  It was the responsibility of

10     the logistics bases, and they kept track of how many tons of fuel they

11     had.  I have no idea about that.

12        Q.   Do you remember your answer to my question earlier?  You said it

13     was -- it wasn't your job to actually transport.  I think it was to keep

14     track of it.  But you don't know how -- you don't have any estimate at

15     all?

16        A.   It was not my task to keep a record of the amount of fuel.  My

17     task was to make sure that the fuel used by units was used economically.

18        Q.   All right.  Who, if anyone, in the Ministry of Defence did you

19     consult with in your job in receiving fuel from Serbia and making sure

20     that it was dealt with economically?  I'm talking about the RS Ministry

21     of Defence.

22        A.   I didn't have a direct connection with the Ministry of Defence.

23     It was the Main Staff who had that, or to be precise, the logistics

24     sector.  Therefore, I have no idea in what way the fuel was procured.  My

25     task was to receive a specific request and to make sure that the request

Page 24112

 1     is acted upon.  That's to say that certain transportation is carried out.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let's -- let me ask you about a specific one.  That's go

 3     to 65 ter number 42.  A copy of that will come up on your screen.  I can

 4     give you a hard copy.  That might be helpful.

 5             If I could give you a hard copy.  That's hard to read, I've got

 6     to tell you.

 7             This is a -- you can try to read it there, sir, but let me...

 8     thank you.

 9             This is a document from the Main Staff, from the Technical

10     Division that you've talked about, on 14 September 1995.  "Attention,

11     command of the 35th logistics base, Drina Corps command (for information)

12     1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade (for information)," and you've told us what

13     that means.

14             "Pursuant to the order of the commander of the Main Staff of the

15     army of Republika Srpska immediately issue the following quantity of fuel

16     to the Drina Corps command:  D-2, 5.000 litres.

17              "The above quantity of fuel will be used for engineering

18     works ..." and it goes on.

19             Now, who is Colonel Zarko Ljubojecic?

20        A.   He was a colleague who was the chief of the technical division of

21     the logistics sector.

22        Q.   So is this a rather large amount of fuel?

23        A.   No.  It's a very small quantity 5.000 litres.

24        Q.   Let's go to 65 ter number 41.  Did you know about this?

25        A.   No.  This was sent directly to the unit, and I didn't have

Page 24113

 1     anything to do with this.

 2        Q.   Well, how did you know it was sent directly to the unit?

 3        A.   You can see it in the order.

 4        Q.   Sent from where?

 5        A.   It was sent from the Main Staff, from the technical division of

 6     the logistics sector to the 35th logistics base, stating that the unit

 7     would take the stated amount of fuel directly from them.

 8        Q.   So where is the fuel depot that you're talking about in relation

 9     to Han Pijesak?

10        A.   The fuel was to be taken from the 35th logistics base in

11     Bijeljina.  The 35th logistics base is in Bijeljina.

12        Q.   All right.  Take a look at this other document that is now up on

13     the screen.  I think that one should be easier to read.  And I won't read

14     it all out.  We can see that this is referring to the same date.  Five

15     tons of D-2.  "The logistics sector of the Main Staff of the Republika

16     Srpska shall deliver to the standard barracks in Zvornik."  Are you aware

17     that General Mladic issued this order?

18        A.   No.  I wasn't aware of it because it didn't go through me.

19        Q.   Fuel is your profession.  You didn't have to look after what

20     happened this fuel, what happened to the remaining fuel, where it went to

21     so you could incorporate it into the fuel reserves that you would be

22     sending out to various corps?  This is 5.000 litres that was never on

23     your radar screen?

24        A.   If I may clarify.  This same order is identical.  It is just that

25     General Mladic approved the stated quantity, whereas the other order

Page 24114

 1     orders the unit to take over that same stated amount of fuel from that

 2     logistics base.

 3        Q.   I understand.  And you're as equally unknowledgeable about

 4     General Mladic and this 5000 tonnes as you are -- or 500 tonnes as you

 5     were the previous document?

 6        A.   Every document that I did not sign or every document that did not

 7     pertain to transportation only was outside of my knowledge.  I could not

 8     have known about it.

 9        Q.   Well, okay.  Let's set aside fuel.  You were also responsible for

10     trucks, big trucks, buses, for big Main Staff operations, right?

11        A.   Only if the vehicles were from a Main Staff unit.  If the

12     vehicles were part of a corps, then they were no longer my

13     responsibility.

14        Q.   Well, did you assist the 10th Sabotage Detachment of the Main

15     Staff get to the Srebrenica attack area on or around 8, 9 July, 1995 when

16     you were back in the office from your holiday?  You've heard of them,

17     haven't you, the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

18        A.   I've already told your colleague that we in the Main Staff did

19     not receive a single request for any job that would do -- would have to

20     do with transportation in relation to any unit.

21        Q.   Well, we'll get into that a little bit more as we get to the time

22     frame.

23             Were you aware of the acquiring of large numbers -- it's hard to

24     say, 15, 20 very large trucks, big dump trucks, the kind that they haul

25     bauxite around in from mid-September to roughly mid-October for a large

Page 24115

 1     transportation of materiel, men and materiel in the area of the Zvornik

 2     and Bratunac Brigades?  Huge operation, took several days, drove through

 3     the night doing it, lots and lots of fuel had to be used.  You must have

 4     know what I'm talking about.  It was a Main Staff operation.

 5        A.   One such request was --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Fauveau.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I am not sure what the Prosecutor

 8     is relying on when he says that it was a big operation or that it was

 9     conducted by the Main Staff.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Do you wish to comment on that?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I probably shouldn't be commenting in front of

12     the witness.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  But I can --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Kerkez, do you understand English?

16             THE WITNESS:  A little.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  A little.  Then I think you better leave the

18     courtroom a little bit, for a short while.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sure I don't need to explain to the Court the

22     size of the reburial operation.  It was massive to say the least.  We all

23     remember the dates.  I think we remember when the Zvornik Brigade officer

24     suddenly told us all about it for the first time and the involvement of

25     people.  It went from Zvornik to the areas around Snagovo, and it went

Page 24116

 1     from Glogova to the areas south of Srebrenica.  It was a very large

 2     operation.  It went through the night.  You may recall the -- well, I

 3     won't get into the grim evidence associated with it.  And the part about

 4     the Main Staff, you may recall the notes of the command staff of the

 5     Bratunac Brigade in October of 1995 where Momir Nikolic makes a note, and

 6     this is during a time period where we have provided aerial imagery

 7     showing the disturbed earth.  The note from the command staff that Momir

 8     Nikolic motes that asenacija is being done by orders of Main Staff.

 9     That's the basis of my question.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's proceed.  Let's bring the witness

11     in.

12             Yes, Madam Fauveau.

13             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Just before the witness is brought

14     back in, maybe the Prosecutor could state what is it about exactly,

15     because one could think that it was about a military operation in

16     September and October of 1995.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but I think he's made that clear now, no?

18     Yes.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm being tricky.  I don't want to give it away.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  You may need to go back to page 60, lines 1 to 7 if

22     you wish to repeat your question.  Otherwise rephrase it.  It's up to

23     you.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   You were in the process of answering the question.  You said, I'd

Page 24117

 1     think you'd known about something and then you were interrupted, can you

 2     tell us what it was that you were telling us?

 3        A.   I wished to say that no such request had ever reached me or the

 4     Main Staff, or had I ever heard of such an operation like what you have

 5     referred to.

 6        Q.   Well, you -- you can't really speak for the whole Main Staff, can

 7     you?

 8        A.   I cannot.  I'm speaking in my own name.

 9        Q.   Yes.  And if hundreds and hundreds of litres of fuel was used for

10     that job, you should have known about it; right?

11        A.   No.  Fuel -- well, you've seen that fuel is directly given by the

12     army commander, that is to say the quantity concerned.

13             I don't think you understand.  The my obligation is to check how

14     the fuel is being used.  It is not that I provide fuel for the

15     implementation of tasks or operations.  That is the duty of the technical

16     service.

17        Q.   I'm reminded you started your question [sic] with "One such

18     request was," and then you were interrupted.  And that's on page 60, line

19     8.  Do you want to finish that thought?

20        A.   I think that I said no such request.

21        Q.   Perhaps.  Thanks.  Okay.  Let's --

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's break time, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's have a 25-minute break.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

Page 24118

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Colonel, the other day we were in court and we had a document

 4     where there was a mention of a person from the Main Staff.  This was a

 5     document from 5 August.  It was an intercepted conversation, and there

 6     was a person written down here called Lieutenant Colonel Stevanovic.  Do

 7     you know a Lieutenant Colonel Stevanovic?  May have been in the section

 8     that approved passes, press passes, things like that?

 9        A.   I do not remember.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter number 3178.  This is a Main Staff

11     personnel employment record.  And if we could first go to -- if we could

12     go to page -- well, let's let the witness see the first page so he can

13     just get an idea what that looks like.

14             Okay.  So we see Main Staff, Glavni Stab VRS.  And if we could go

15     to page -- let's start with page 19, if you can find that.

16             And you can see -- that's your name right up there, isn't it?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   And who's the person above your name on this document?

19        A.   Colonel Ostoja Stijepic.  That is a Colonel who held this post

20     before me.

21        Q.   All right.  So let's now go to page 13 of the list.  I'm sorry,

22     perhaps you can help me here.  What section is this that we see there at

23     the top and those first few names, Vidoje and Slobodan?  What section is

24     that?

25        A.   Do you mean the first three men?

Page 24119

 1        Q.   Yeah, and their section.

 2        A.   These men worked in the section for morale, General Gvero's

 3     section.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And then can we -- let's go down to the -- oh, not too

 5     much, sorry.  Right there.  That's fine.

 6             Boris Stankovic, who is that?

 7        A.   I cannot remember.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And then we see that Vasilija Stevanovic, and what's the

 9     rank of that Stevanovic according to this document?

10        A.   I don't remember him either.

11        Q.   Right.  But can you -- according to the document, can you tell us

12     what the rank is?

13        A.   According to what is written here, lieutenant colonel.

14        Q.   Okay.  Then if we go over to the far right, we see a date area.

15     This is all handwritten.  And this is -- it's 31 July '95; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  Does seeing that help -- help your recollection at all of

18     this guy?  The Main Staff wasn't a very big outfit.

19        A.   Yes, but -- but not everybody was at the same location.

20        Q.   Where were Gvero's people on this list in July '95?  You were at

21     this hotel in Han Pijesak; right?  Where were they?

22        A.   As far as I know, part of them were in Crna Rijeka, and part of

23     them were in a building that was not the hotel.

24        Q.   Where was Gvero?  Where did he have his office, July '95?

25        A.   In July '95, in principle he was in is Crna Rijeka.  However, he

Page 24120

 1     spent a certain period of time at the hotel.  As for the exact time, I

 2     cannot say anything.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  Now, you told us that you got back from

 4     holiday on the 6th of July, 1995, and you also told us that you didn't

 5     hear about anything to do with the Srebrenica operation until you heard

 6     it on the media.  What was the first thing you say you heard about the

 7     Srebrenica operation?

 8        A.   It is correct that I had not had any information until this was

 9     made public through the media.  As far as I can remember, what was

10     published was that fighting had started around the Srebrenica enclave.

11        Q.   When did you first start communicating with people from the

12     Srebrenica area, like Krsmanovic or others, in doing your job to help

13     assist that operation?

14        A.   I'm sorry, I did not understand the question.

15        Q.   Okay.  I'll ask it again.  But let me before I -- let me try to

16     have you clear something up.

17             It wasn't really clear to me when you testified what day you

18     actually went to Potocari.  Can you try to sort that out for us?  I mean,

19     in relation to something.

20        A.   Well, I remember that it was -- I mean, the second day when the

21     evacuation of the population started.

22        Q.   Okay.  So the second day of what?  I mean, not of -- I'm not

23     talking about the month.  The second day of evacuation, the second day of

24     something else?  What do you mean when you say "the second day"?

25        A.   The previous day I heard again through the media that the

Page 24121

 1     evacuation of the civilian population had started from the town of

 2     Srebrenica, and I left on the following day to see how all of this was

 3     developing and whether any assistance was needed perhaps.  The transport

 4     service from the Drina Corps, that is.

 5        Q.   So you say you heard about the evacuation of the population on

 6     the first day, and I think everyone will agree, just to clarify the

 7     record, that the first day of the evacuation was the 12th of July.  So if

 8     you don't mind, I'll say the 12th.

 9             Tell me, what did you learn was happening on the 12th of July and

10     from what source in particular, as best as you can recall?

11        A.   Since this operation was known of earlier on, that is to say

12     fighting had already started and so on and so forth, on that day, well, I

13     don't remember the exact date, but if you say that it was the 12th, then

14     say in the afternoon, sometime in the afternoon hours, I heard through

15     the media, as I've already said, that people started evacuating from

16     Srebrenica, and they were being transported towards Kladanj.

17        Q.   And you -- had you been at work full time from the 6th of July

18     through the 12th of July?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Surely you were aware of the massive effort to get buses and fuel

21     together to be able to get those civilian population folks over to Bosnia

22     and Herzegovina.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

24             Mr. Nikolic.

25             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] It's a leading question in view of

Page 24122

 1     the fact that the witness has already answered this question

 2     unequivocally.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are on cross, and on cross leading questions are

 4     permitted to start with.

 5             Secondly, do you wish, Mr. McCloskey, to rebut the allegation

 6     that the witness has already answered this question, unequivocally?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't think he's answered it unequivocally.

 8     And, Mr. President, in cross-examination sometimes it's appropriate to

 9     ask the same question twice, especially a question as fundamental as he's

10     in his office from 6th to the 12th of July in the -- in his answer.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sometimes even in direct.  Let's proceed.

12             Mr. Kerkez, please, if you could please answer the question.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   And it was -- the question was surely you became aware sometime

15     between the 6th and the 12th of the effort on the VRS to get buses and

16     trucks and fuel to Bratunac and Potocari to help get those civilians over

17     to the Muslim-held territory.

18        A.   I've already told your colleague my service, my department, did

19     not receive a single request from any quarters to provide any sort of

20     vehicle, not even for that specific task.

21        Q.   Well, okay, but how about did you know about the need for buses,

22     that the VRS was looking for buses and fuel?  Your job is fuel, if you

23     told us.  Your job is buses and trucks and transport, and this court has

24     heard a lot of information about buses and trucks coming from all over

25     Bosnia.  You weren't aware of that at all?

Page 24123

 1        A.   That, even if it was done, it was done without the knowledge of

 2     the Main Staff.  Most probably the unit which implemented it did so on

 3     the orders from an individual.

 4        Q.   What do you mean by that?  What individual?  Do you think Vinko

 5     Pandurevic can do this on his own?

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic, Ms. Nikolic -- one moment, Mr. Kerkez.

 7     Ms. Nikolic.

 8             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it was the

 9     interpretation that caused the problem.  The witness said "units" and not

10     "individuals."

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm not in a position to confirm that, but

12     Mr. McCloskey, assuming that Ms. Nikolic is right, do you wish to put

13     another question or move to your next question?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Most probably the unit which implemented it did

15     so on the orders from a unit.  I think I would put my faith in the

16     interpreters on that one, but I think we can go on.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  If any of the -- of the interpreters could help us,

18     I think that would be useful.  What did the witness say?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter interpreted the way she heard

20     at the time.  It's difficult for me to go back and confirm.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's not a big deal.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 156.

24        Q.   I know this happened a while back but when did you first speak to

25     the Beara team and actually start providing information and doing, you

Page 24124

 1     know, recollecting what happened?

 2        A.   Are you referring to Defence?

 3        Q.   Yes, to Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Nikolic, you know, who you --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Meek.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   -- Mr. Meek, others on the team.

 7        A.   The first time was in Belgrade about a month ago with the lawyer,

 8     Stanic.

 9        Q.   And do you remember Mr. Stanic's entire name?

10        A.   Just a moment, please.  Not at this moment, no.

11        Q.   And did you tell him basically what you've told us today in

12     court?

13        A.   We talked about the events that occurred at the time.

14        Q.   Anything that you told them then in Belgrade that is different

15     than what you've told us today?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Okay.  And did anybody write down anything that you said?

18        A.   Maybe he did in some personal -- well, maybe just an outline or

19     whatever.  I'm not sure.

20        Q.   Well, anything that you got to see to kind of read back to check

21     that it was what you said?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   How about when you were hear in The Hague?  It's normal to talk

24     with the people again before you come in to testify.  Did you have a

25     chance to talk with someone from -- Mr. Nikolic, or Mr. Ostojic?

Page 24125

 1        A.   Mr. Nikolic.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Did he show you anything to read, any -- anything to help

 3     refresh your recollection during that time?

 4        A.   No.  We just talked.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Did you add anything new or change anything from what you

 6     said in Belgrade?

 7        A.   No.  In principle, everything was the same.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let's take a look at this document.  You've been talking

 9     about that you are a request receiver, and you're talking about your

10     responsibility for buses and fuel.  You were in the office on the 12th of

11     July, I think you've told us, correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And okay.  And here we have a request from the command of the

14     Drina Corps, dated 12 July.  We see it's the time delivered looks like

15     it's in the morning around 10.00, 10.20, something like that.  And it

16     says:  "To the VRS Main Staff."  And the PKM, what's the PKM.

17        A.   The rear command post.

18        Q.   And where was that?

19        A.   At the hotel in Han Pijesak.

20        Q.   Your offices?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And it says:  "Pursuant to the VRS commander's order to provide

23     50 buses for evacuation from the Srebrenica enclave, we hereby ask you

24     for additional approval of the following types and quantities."  You've

25     got fuel and maybe a diesel.  We've got petrol.  And then we go on and it

Page 24126

 1     talks about buses.  They're supposed to go from these -- all these

 2     municipalities all over the place, and the final destination isn't

 3     really -- is unknown.

 4             Does this help refresh your recollection?  And take your time,

 5     sir, and think about it.  It's important.  You're not on trial here.

 6        A.   I understand.  This is a request of the commander of the Drina

 7     Corps, General Zivanovic.  He is asking for additional quantities of

 8     fuel.  So this falls under the technical service, not the transport

 9     service.

10             As regards buses, he is asking -- well, from these places, these

11     are civilian buses, to make their mobilisation possible.

12             That's not the work of the traffic and transportation service.

13        Q.   Well, who -- who at the hotel, at the rear command post, is

14     supposed to deal with this for vehicles and the transport of vehicles if

15     it's not you or your service?

16        A.   It's for vehicles that are not within the military.  It is under

17     the Ministry of the Defence, or, rather, the organ for organisation and

18     mobilisation in the Main Staff.  That is to say, mobilised vehicles.

19     That is to say, those that are not within the army.

20        Q.   Did you get involved in helping get any vehicles or buses to the

21     area of Bratunac on the 12th or 13th of July?

22        A.   No, and I was not aware of this order.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter number 3574.

24             Sir, were you aware that the Muslim army was listening to

25     conversations from Han Pijesak throughout the zone of responsibility of

Page 24127

 1     the VRS?

 2        A.   No.  No.

 3        Q.   No security guy ever told you to be careful on what you say on

 4     the radio, the Muslims are listening?

 5        A.   Well, yes, I was told.

 6        Q.   Sure.  Okay.  We have an intercept here from 12 July, and

 7     according to the Muslims it's between Lieutenant Colonel Kerkez, traffic,

 8     and an unidentified male X, and the conversation went as follows:

 9              "Hello, Lieutenant Colonel Kerkez from traffic speaking."

10             X says:  "Yes."

11             Then Kerkez says:  "The following, say, a few trailer trucks

12     needed to be engaged in the direction down towards Bratunac."

13             X says:  "Yes, they're engaged."

14             Kerkez says:  "Have they left already?"

15             X says:  "They're leaving."

16             Kerkez says:  "Good.  So there's no problem."

17             X says:  "None."

18             Then Kerkez says, and it's our position, sir, that this is you

19     saying this:  "Listen, two buses will report to you from the Eastern

20     Bosnia Corps command with registration plates BN," and then the numbers,

21     "for the same task.  Have them tanked up a bit as well and that there."

22             X says:  "Okay.  Understood.  Carry on."

23             What task were you talking about?

24        A.   Believe me, I don't remember.  I have no idea.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  You don't remember what?  You don't remember what

Page 24128

 1     this task was, or you don't even remember that you ever -- you were ever

 2     engaged in this conversation?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the conversation,

 4     and I don't remember the task.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   As Mr. Nikolic said in his questioning to you, these were very

 7     memorable events, and he said that because they were memorable you

 8     remembered things.

 9             You have told us you went to Potocari the next day on the 13th.

10     Surely, sir, now that you've had a chance to think about this, you

11     remember helping organise the buses, the fuel to Bratunac, Potocari.

12        A.   As far as I can see, this only has to do with the few vehicles.

13     I don't know what this is all about and what the task was.  Really, I

14     don't remember.

15        Q.   You say you went to Potocari the next day.  Did you see the

16     military-aged men getting separated from their families?

17        A.   I didn't see either the military-aged men and -- or was there

18     ever such an event there.

19        Q.   So you're telling us today that there was never an event in

20     Potocari.  There was no military-aged men that were ever separated from

21     their families.  Is that what you're saying?

22        A.   No.  I told you that at the time I was there I didn't see that

23     event, that's to say, the separation of the military-aged men from their

24     families, nor did I observe such men.  There were women, children, the

25     elderly aged around 70, and some young boys aged 15, 16.  I didn't see

Page 24129

 1     any military-aged men save for my trip back when I saw them surrender

 2     there or being taken prisoners.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I want to show you some video film that was shot at the

 4     time in the afternoon of 13 July, and we'll play that.  Take a look at

 5     it, see if it helps refresh your recollection.  It's 65 ter 2047.

 6             And did you know a senior MUP officer named Ljubisa [Realtime

 7     transcript read in error "Ljubomir"] Borovcanin?

 8        A.   Only by name.  Personally, no, we didn't come across each other.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment on this.  I heard you -- correct me if I

10     am wrong, Mr. McCloskey.  In the transcript we have "Ljubomir."  I heard

11     you say "Ljubisa."

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's actually perhaps an issue in dispute, Your

13     Honour.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's what I'm just asking you because I heard you

15     say "Ljubisa" but the transcript says "Ljubomir."

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ah, the transcript should say Ljubisa.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's why I had asked the question.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I know him as both.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  I know that there is an allegation that both

20     existed, but I'm pointing this out because the transcript should reflect

21     what you said.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  So the witness now knows that he is being directed

24     to answer in relation to a person Ljubisa Borovcanin and not Ljubomir

25     Borovcanin.

Page 24130

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   When you said you had heard of him by name back in 1995, did

 3     you -- had -- had you heard of him by name?

 4        A.   I heard the name, and I know that he worked on some security

 5     tasks in the civilian police.  I don't know exactly what.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's -- let's take a look at this -- this video and

 7     I'll ask you a question or two about it.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  One moment.  Mr. Lazarevic.

 9             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, at this point I don't know which

10     particular part of the video Mr. McCloskey wants to play, but I have some

11     assumption, and I would like to make a submission which wouldn't be

12     appropriate in front of the witness since he understands --

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Perfectly understandable.

14             Mr. Kerkez.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

17             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes.  Just in order to be fair to the witness, I

18     understand that Mr. McCloskey's entitled to put to the witness whatever

19     he deems appropriate in his cross-examination, but it is my understanding

20     that this witness testified that he was there at noon, and according to

21     the evidence and according to some -- well, some time which can be seen

22     on this video, it was shooted later, couple of hours later.  So I don't

23     know how would it help to ...

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, but if I am reading Mr. McCloskey

25     right, that has got nothing to do with it, but Mr. McCloskey.

Page 24131

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, this -- I don't have a video at

 2     noon, otherwise I'd probably show that one to him, but this is, I think,

 3     close enough for my purposes.  I'm going to show him these men jammed

 4     into the white house, and I'm thinking at noon there's still men in that

 5     white house, maybe not as many.  But I think it's a relevant enough --

 6     and we see Mr. Borovcanin standing in front of the white house, and so

 7     that's, you know, I thought I'd ask if I knew him first.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  That's exactly what I thought you would say

 9     to be honest.  Let's -- let's proceed and then we see how it turns out.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   Now, Witness, we're going to show you something that was right

14     along that main road where all those people you've described were -- were

15     huddling around, and I want to see if this kind of rings any bells for

16     you, if -- something that you might have seen.  And there's a big house

17     in this picture.  Okay?

18             Let's -- it's at 02:29:38:8 is where it starts.

19                           [Videotape played]

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   Do you recognise anybody in that -- in that picture?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let's keep playing.

24                           [Videotape played]

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 24132

 1        Q.   Okay.  That -- that house, that white house, is right on the main

 2     road.  See those men kind of jammed into that balcony?  Do you remember

 3     that sight when you were there?

 4        A.   No, I didn't see that.

 5        Q.   All right.  I want to go to another exhibit, 65 ter 3573.

 6             Sir, you've said that when you're there on the 13th travelling

 7     this area that you never -- well, did you see General Mladic?

 8        A.   I've also answered that question that I didn't see a single

 9     senior officer from the staff in that period of time.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could I get the ELMO?  I see I don't have a

11     translation.

12        Q.   You've also said that during this time that you were in Potocari

13     you went through Bratunac as well, correct?  Is that correct, sir?

14        A.   In order to reach Potocari one has to pass through Bratunac in

15     part.

16        Q.   That's why I asked the question.  So you recall going to Bratunac

17     twice, I guess, once on the way to Potocari and once on the way back.

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And you were all up and down that road between Konjevic Polje and

20     Bratunac.  Did you by chance stop by the Hotel Fontana --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, because I saw him nodding, but I didn't

22     hear him say yes or no.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   Did you -- and you've testified during all of this time that you

Page 24133

 1     were there that you never saw Colonel Ljubisa Beara in Bratunac; correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Did you go by the Hotel Fontana at any time when you were there?

 4        A.   No.  We only passed through Bratunac both ways.

 5        Q.   Did you know that he had been at a room approved for him at the

 6     Hotel Fontana between 13 and 17 July according to this military document

 7     signed by -- or in the name of Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic?

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, just one moment.  What's the objection,

 9     Mr. Nikolic?

10             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] The witness is asked to speculate

11     since this does not relate to his service or his department.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  He's just being asked whether he knows or not, just

13     as previously he didn't recognise some individuals from the photo that he

14     was shown, he can answer this with a yes or a no.

15             Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

16             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not believe that

17     this is an appropriate question.  By showing him these documents, one can

18     put a question to the witness by asking if he was at the hotel --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry.  I've got to interrupt her at this

20     point and I'm sorry.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau, you cannot replace or take our role in

22     conducting the trial.  That's for us to decide.  If we notice that a

23     question is not regular we usually stop, and if the objection is a valid

24     one we usually grant it as well but not in this case.  Let's proceed.

25             Mr. Kerkez, can you answer the question, please?  If you

Page 24134

 1     remember.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't stop by to visit it, nor

 3     do I know where the hotel in Podrinje is.  I was in Bratunac on perhaps

 4     two occasions only.

 5        Q.   Sir, I've got the original of this document that we acquired in

 6     Bratunac not -- not long ago and provided it to everyone, including the

 7     Beara Defence team a few days ago.  Did they happen to show you this

 8     document to help refresh your recollection on whether or not Mr. Beara

 9     may have been in and around Bratunac and Potocari at that time?

10        A.   Are you referring to this particular document?

11        Q.   Yes, the one on the screen.

12        A.   No.  This is the first time I see it.

13        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  I have nothing else.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you is there re-examination, Mr. Nikolic?

15             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Two questions only to clarify

16     something about the consumption of fuel.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Nikolic:

18        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, in answer to my learned friend the Prosecutor about

19     the consumption of fuel, tell us this:  In what way did you control the

20     consumption of fuel if you were able to keep track of that at all?

21        A.   I kept track of the consumption of fuel used only by the units

22     that were under my professional supervision.  As far as the consumption

23     of fuel of the vehicles of the corps, this was the responsibility of the

24     chief of the corps.  That's why these organs existed.  It was my duty to

25     supervise and keep track of the department of the passenger vehicles and

Page 24135

 1     the Automobile Battalion that was under the control of the Main Staff.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you.

 5             Mr. Kerkez, we have concluded your testimony.  On behalf of the

 6     Trial Chamber I wish to thank you for having been kind enough to come

 7     over and give testimony.  You're free to go.  You will receive assistance

 8     from our staff.  On behalf of everyone, I wish you a safe journey back

 9     home.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

12             Shall we go through, we've got -- our time is up, but I think we

13     can stay a couple of more minutes to finish with the documents if you

14     agree.

15             Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

16             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Documents according to the 65 ter

17     list 2D50 [as interpreted] and 2D549.  These are the documents we used

18     today.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection, Mr. McCloskey?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from anyone else?  No objections.

22     The documents are admitted.

23             Any of the other Defence teams that cross-examined the witness?

24     No documents.

25             Mr. McCloskey.  You used a few documents.  Do you wish to tender

Page 24136

 1     any of them?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I'm told --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  They're probably all already in, all of them.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think most of them are already in.  Okay.  I've

 5     got -- 65 ter 3178 was that Main Staff personnel employment record.  I'm

 6     told that that was not in before.  And then the -- the intercept of 12

 7     July that we went over with him is 3574, and then the Bratunac Brigade

 8     document about the Hotel Fontana is 3573.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Any objections?  Mr. Zivanovic.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I have objections regarding the document

11     3573 on the ground of authenticity, because it is made on 25th of July,

12     and it relates to the dates 13 to 17 July.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14             Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That is, of course, an issue which is why I

16     brought out the original, and I would have asked my colleague to assist

17     us in providing us the documents he received from the Hotel Fontana so

18     that we may compare and determine to see if they found the same document.

19     We went recently after our discussion on these documents, before filing

20     any motion or anything, to see the same people they saw and we did.  This

21     was just a couple of weeks ago, and we got the materials that we got,

22     including some of the things we saw that had Mr. Popovic's name on it.

23             In addition to that, we found this original document, and we --

24     we intend to provide material regarding its authentication during the

25     potential rebuttal stage if that need be on the alibi situation.

Page 24137

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Because we do have the investigators that did

 3     that, how they found it, where they found it, the officer on the bottom

 4     of it who authorises this post facto approval was interviewed as well as

 5     the hotel people were interviewed, and that investigator and those people

 6     can be available really -- you know, it would be normal during the

 7     rebuttal stage if there's a challenge to it.  But I would first ask the

 8     Court to ask Mr. Zivanovic to bring forward his documents so that we can

 9     compare the two.  He's brought up the issue.  He's called them into

10     question.  I think it is now incumbent upon him to come forward with the

11     documents that hitherto he refused to provide us, and at a very minimum

12     provide it to the Court, although I don't want -- you've got enough work.

13     I think it's better that we the documents, we'll make the comparison,

14     we'll sit down together.  We've given them I think almost everything that

15     we've got, though it's still in the process of that and I don't know if

16     we have a hundred per cent of it or not, but the key ones we gave them as

17     soon as it went through the process.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

19             Any other objections?  Mr. Nikolic.

20             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We also have an objection to make

21     in relation to this document, because we've seen the original version of

22     it only today and we haven't been given a chance to look at it before.

23     All the more so, as we will have the opportunity in our further case to

24     check the authenticity of some documents through our expert witnesses, we

25     have not been given a chance to satisfy ourselves as to the authenticity

Page 24138

 1     of the document.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  They've had this document for several days.  They

 4     could have seen it any time they wanted.  Hearing this repeated refrain

 5     "that we did not have a chance to see pherograms or autopsy reports or --

 6     it's -- I don't know what the purpose of those kind of comments are for,

 7     but of course they had a chance to see it.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  I need to consult with my

 9     colleagues.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So this particular document will for

12     the time can be marked for identification.

13             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, can I add one point to

15     this?  I have interviewed the author of this document from the Bratunac

16     Brigade recently just last week with Mr. Blasyck.  He recognised his

17     handwriting on it.  That -- if that is not disclosed today it will be.

18     The director of the Hotel Fontana and the parent company authenticated

19     it.  It's not an issue for this time for them to attack it.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but it could become an issue.  We are marking

21     it for identification purposes only for the time being, and then later on

22     if the question arises as to authenticity we'll decide.

23             Yes, Mr. Nicholls -- Mr. Nikolic.

24             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] One correction in the transcript.

25     When I quoted the documents 2D500, it was entered as 2D50 only.

Page 24139

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you for that.

 2             Anything else?  Nothing?  I wish you all a nice weekend.  We

 3     stand adjourned until Monday at 9.00 in the morning.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day

 6                           of July, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.