Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24540

 1                           Monday, 25 August 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon.  Madam Registrar, could you kindly

 7     call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam.

11             For the record, all the accused are here.  The Prosecution is

12     Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Vanderpuye.  And from the Defence side, I notice

13     the absence of Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes.  Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes.

14             Yes.  Are there any preliminaries?  None.

15             So we proceed with your first witness, Mr. Ostojic.

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Good

17     afternoon and welcome back.  Our first witness will be Dr. Professor

18     Slobodan Remetic, and I think we all have his report.

19             We've also provided the booth with the report, both in B/C/S and

20     in English, so that it may be easier for them to follow some of the

21     linguistical terms that we may be using today.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, Professor.  Can you hear me?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  Yes, I can hear

Page 24541

 1     you very well.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  What I wonder is whether you know who's talking to

 3     you, because you're looking at the wrong direction.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I know.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  That makes it better.

 6             I will be speaking in English, and most of the proceedings today

 7     will be in English.  You will be receiving interpretation simultaneously.

 8     If there are problems with interpretation, please let me know

 9     immediately.

10             You've been summoned here as a witness by the Defence team of

11     Ljubisa Beara.  Before you start your testimony, our Rules require that

12     you make a solemn declaration that you will be speaking the truth, the

13     text of which is being handed to you now.  Please read that out loud, and

14     that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?  May I start?

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  SLOBODAN REMETIC

20                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Professor.  Please make yourself

22     comfortable.

23             Mr. Ostojic will go first.  He will then be followed by others on

24     cross-examination.

25             Mr. Ostojic.

Page 24542

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Ostojic:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, Professor.

 4        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Ostojic.

 5        Q.   As you know, my name is John Ostojic, and I will be asking you

 6     some questions here today, and hopefully we can finish today with at

 7     least my direct examination.

 8             Sir, can you, for the record, please state your full name for us?

 9        A.   Slobodan Remetic.

10        Q.   And, Professor, I note from your CV and in other papers that you

11     have written that you are a professor as well as a doctor.  How would you

12     like me to refer to you, as "Professor Remetic" or "Dr. Remetic"?

13        A.   It doesn't really make any difference.  You can just call me

14     "Mr. Remetic."  It's okay as well.

15        Q.   Fair enough.  Mr. Remetic, before you, you have a set of

16     documents, and just so that the record is clear, can you just share with

17     us what those documents are?

18        A.   I have received 18 intercepts from the Defence counsel

19     representing Mr. Beara.  I have also received a short curriculum vitae of

20     Mr. Beara.  I've also been provided with the statements of the operatives

21     who allegedly recorded the intercepted conversations.  I also have

22     received the NIOD's criticism, i.e., their review of the work of the

23     operatives.  And I believe this is -- this sums up the most important

24     things that I've had.

25        Q.   And, Mr. Remetic, we'll go through your report in order to

Page 24543

 1     explain and expand on some of the items that you give opinions on, but I

 2     just needed to know:  In front of you today, on the table that's before

 3     you, can you just tell us, do you have your report there dated the 18th

 4     of April, 2008?  Do you have that?

 5        A.   Yes, I have before me the text of the report that I submitted on

 6     the 18th of April to the Defence counsel.

 7        Q.   And just so the record is clear and our record is clear, it's

 8     2D551 that reported the 18th of April, 2008.

 9             Also before you, sir, you referenced 18 intercepts.  Do you have

10     a packet of those 18 intercepts with you as well?

11        A.   Yes, I have the intercepts as well.  They are right before me,

12     next to the linguistic analysis of the intercepts.

13        Q.   And we'll be going through that a little later in our discussion

14     here this afternoon.  I just wanted to know what you had in front of you.

15             Now, let's talk about you, yourself, first.  And can you give us

16     a little background?  When were you born and where were you born?

17        A.   I was born on the 3rd of August, 1945, in the village of

18     Kovacevici, municipality of Kladanj in the Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I completed elementary school and secondary school

20     in Kladanj.  I went to university in Novi Sad, and that's where I

21     graduated from the School of South Slavonic Languages in 1970.  I

22     obtained my masters degree in Belgrade in 1976, and I obtained my

23     doctoral degree at the Faculty of Philosophy in Novi Sad in 1984.

24        Q.   Thank you for that.  And can you share with us what your

25     profession is currently?

Page 24544

 1        A.   Currently, I've been dealing with intercepts most of the time,

 2     but, generally speaking, I'm a professor at the School of Philosophy Nis,

 3     and I'm also part-time professor at the School of Philosophy in Banja

 4     Luka.  I'm a member of the Academy of Sciences of Republika Srpska, and

 5     I'm in charge of a project there, and I'm also in charge of a project of

 6     the investigation of the dialect of the Serbian language, which is

 7     conducted by the Institute for the Serbian Language with the Serbian

 8     Academy of Sciences.

 9        Q.   And I note on page 3 of your report, 2D551, you list some of your

10     other academic accomplishments, if you will.  Is that correct?

11        A.   I don't know what you mean.  I am a member of several editorial

12     boards.  Actually, of the three editorial boards of the leading

13     linguistic magazines in Belgrade, the Serbian Dialectological Magazine,

14     the Onomatological Proceeds and the South Slavic Philologist.  These

15     magazines are published by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts.  I'm

16     a member of the seven scientific committees of the Serbian Academy of

17     Sciences and Arts and I'm also the deputy secretary of the department for

18     literature and arts in the Academy of Science and Arts of Republika

19     Srpska.  I'm a member of the editorial board of the Encyclopedia

20     Republika Srpska.  As you can see, I have a lot of duties, a lot of

21     things on my hands.

22        Q.   I do, I do see it, and thank you for that, and that's why I just

23     wanted to highlight it's in fact in your CV, which is within your report.

24             Also, you identify in your report various publications that

25     you've written; is that correct?  And I think you list approximately four

Page 24545

 1     pages worth of publications in which you've authored or co-authored in

 2     specifically the science of linguistic and dialects, or the study of

 3     dialectology; is that correct?

 4        A.   I've published around 200 scientific and professional papers

 5     published by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and other publishers in the

 6     country and abroad.  I am also a member of the commission for the general

 7     South Slavic Atlas with the International Committee of Slavic Experts,

 8     and I'm also on the editorial board for the General Carpathian Dialect

 9     Atlas.  I have also published about 40 dialectological maps for Slavic

10     languages in the Carpathian area.  Most of my works concern dialectology,

11     although I'm also concerned with the history of the Serbian literary

12     language.

13        Q.   Now, when were you first contacted by the Beara Defence team to

14     review and analyse certain intercept conversations?

15        A.   This happened in October last year.  I got a telephone call.  I

16     believe you were in Sarajevo at the time, and that's when our cooperation

17     started.

18        Q.   Prior to October 2007, had you known any members, personally, of

19     the Beara Defence team, including the lawyers or the support staff?

20        A.   No, I didn't know anybody before the month of October.

21        Q.   Prior to October 2007, did you know Mr. Ljubisa Beara or any

22     members of his family?

23        A.   People are familiar with the family name "Beara" because the most

24     famous footballer's name was Beara.  But I was not familiar with the name

25     of Mr. Ljubisa Beara.  In October, when you contacted me, I didn't know

Page 24546

 1     who you were talking about.  It was only when I met with the lawyers in

 2     Belgrade that I actually learned the name of the gentleman in whose

 3     defence I was supposed to take part.

 4        Q.   And just so the record's clear, you didn't know any members of

 5     his family either; correct?

 6        A.   No, I didn't know anybody then.  I subsequently met his wife, but

 7     the answer would be "no."

 8        Q.   Now, can you describe for us briefly what task, if any, was

 9     assigned to you for purposes of analysing these purported intercept

10     conversations?  What was your assignment?

11        A.   My assignment was -- at least that's how I understood it -- to

12     look at the alleged intercepts, to analyse them, and to see whether they

13     could be attributed to Mr. Beara, whether the text or the words that he

14     allegedly uttered were in those intercepts, because in the transcripts

15     that I had available to me for the most part alleged that they were.

16        Q.   And were you given any other assignment over the course of our

17     professional relationship since October 2007 to do any other sort of

18     analysis?

19        A.   I can't remember exactly when I was told that I should also pay

20     attention to the semantic -- to the meaning of some of the words, to look

21     at that as well.  I believe that the word in question is the word

22     "triage" and also to look at the name "Ljubo" and the status of the name

23     "Ljubo" in among the Serbian names.  My task was to see who the name

24     "Ljubo" could be referring to based on the literature and on my

25     experience.  These were the two things that I was supposed to pay

Page 24547

 1     particular importance to.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Professor, we're going to turn to a couple

 3     things, and you're going to help us have a better understanding of your

 4     report.  And preliminarily I'm going to ask you some general questions,

 5     and if you would be kind enough to explain to me what these terms mean.

 6     For example, the first term, so that we're on the same page, can you tell

 7     me what is the study of linguistics?

 8        A.   What do you mean when you say "the study of linguistics"?  In

 9     what terms?

10        Q.   The study of languages, in general, and then we're going to go

11     specifically to dialects.  So dialectology and linguistics, can you

12     explain to us what that is?

13        A.   The dialectology, you mean?  Dialectology is a linguistic

14     scientific discipline that deals with the dialects of different people.

15     Dialectology, as a discipline in Europe, took off the ground and gained

16     credibility in the 19th century.

17             In our parts, it was in the beginning of the 20th century when

18     dialectology became known as a scientific discipline.  In Serbia, the

19     first dialectologist was Vuk Karadzic.  He was the one who started the

20     first division of dialects.

21             Dialectology is very important as a discipline, which is

22     corroborated by the fact that in Serbia, two major linguists of the 20th

23     century were primarily dialectologists.  They were Aleksandar Belic

24     [phoen], who was the founder of dialectology as a scientific discipline,

25     who was a member of all the Slavic academies of science.  And his best

Page 24548

 1     disciple, Mr. Pavel Ilic, was a member of eight academies of science

 2     among which the American Academy of Science, the Russian Academy of

 3     Science, the Academy of Science of Vienna and Serbia.  He was also the

 4     dialectologist for the Encyclopedia Britannica.  He authored the entry on

 5     dialects.  Dialectology occupies a very high position as a science, and

 6     this arises from the matter that it deals with.

 7             Dialects are an inexhaustible treasure trove of data and

 8     information about the life of a people, of a nation.  When it comes to

 9     linguistic facts that are available to a people, this reflects its entire

10     history, its entire past, relationship in society, culture, ethnology,

11     the spiritual and material culture as well.  Dialects provide information

12     which are of great value, of great value for several disciplines, for

13     interdisciplinary research, and that is why dialectology is such a

14     reputable science, and that's why it holds such a reputable position in

15     linguistics.

16             For example, the science of names or onomasticon, comprising the

17     names of people, rivers and mountains, reflect the traces of all the

18     civilizations that have lived in an area.  We know perfectly well today

19     that even long before Cleopatra's romances with Roman emperors, most of

20     our rivers were called the Sava, the Drava, the Danube, the Morava, and

21     others.  These facts speak of the importance of dialectology as a

22     scientific discipline.

23             And like among the Serbs, among the Croats, the leading linguists

24     of the past century and today are primarily dialectologists; for example,

25     Brozovic, who is the leading Croatian linguistic, is primarily a

Page 24549

 1     dialectologist.

 2             And there is one more thing I would like to add, if I may.

 3     Dialects are threatened, they are at risk.  Dialectology is hard pressed

 4     for time because civilization, with all its different forms of literacy,

 5     is suppressing dialects.  It threatens them with complete extermination,

 6     and that is why dialectologists are hard pressed to complete the task

 7     that they haven't completed, and we in the Balkans are lagging behind in

 8     many things, dialectology not being an exception.

 9             Moreover, I would like to say that our dialects, the Serbian and

10     Croatian dialects, and Bosniak as well, needless to say, are very

11     interesting from the point of view of topology.  They show that the

12     history of the area has given us such a variety -- such a mosaic of

13     dialects, such relationships which are very often a rarity in European

14     terms.  Our accent, our polithemy [phoen], our dialects, are a rarity, a

15     very specific feature in planetary terms.  Many foreigners have tried

16     successfully to write books about our dialects, because our dialects are

17     a challenge, they are inspirational, even for foreign scientists who have

18     often dealt with the issue of our dialects.

19        Q.   Thank you, Professor.  And I'm not a linguist or a

20     dialectologist, but I would like to clarify a couple of things.

21             You mentioned that dialects provide us with a treasure trove of

22     information on the life of a people and a nation.  But what I would like

23     to know specifically from you, Professor, is:  Can you obtain information

24     about an individual person from his dialect and the characteristics that

25     he may use in his speech or pattern of speech?  Is that something that's

Page 24550

 1     within this field?

 2        A.   Let's clarify two things.  One thing would be the research of

 3     dialects on the ground, when you actually investigate the autochthonous

 4     people who are often illiterate and who use a certain dialect.  This is

 5     where a dialect can easily be observed, very clearly be observed.  Truth

 6     be told, there are no pure dialects anywhere, because civilization has

 7     had its impact on all the dialects.  We may be talking about that a

 8     little bit later.  And when it comes to the educated people who are not

 9     part of the rural population, who are not the autonomous -- the

10     allochthonous inhabitants of rural areas, then the task becomes a bit

11     more difficult.  But there is an old truth which says that some things

12     cannot be hidden.  One of them is cough, the other is love, the third is

13     poverty, and the fourth one is dialect or speech.  These cannot be

14     covered up or hidden.

15             The difference between the research of orthodox dialects and the

16     attempts to determine, in a literate or educated man, his affiliation,

17     the difference is the following:  In a dialect, you can find the traces

18     of literary speech, and in an educated person you are looking for traces

19     of a dialect.  In other words, the proportions are reverse or they oppose

20     each other.  We're talking about reverse proportions.  In any case, it's

21     very difficult or almost impossible to hide one's dialectological origin.

22        Q.   So am I correct if I say that dialectal characteristics can be

23     used as reliable personal identifiers?

24        A.   The degree of reliability in determining the identity is directly

25     proportional to the quantity of linguistic facts and the core of facts

Page 24551

 1     available to the expert who wishes to determine the identity in question.

 2     The more -- the wealthier the core of linguistic facts, the higher the

 3     chances of success.  Viscosity of linguistic fact core makes the task

 4     more difficult.

 5             Out in the field, when a dialect is being researched, the

 6     situation is much more favourable for the researcher.  The researcher has

 7     questionnaires, masters the subject matter at hand, solicits discourse

 8     from the interlocutor, forms terms which are relevant to the researcher

 9     to reach a conclusion.  In cases like this, you have what you have.  You

10     have to work with what you've been given.

11        Q.   And we'll get back to the linguistic corpus as you identify it in

12     your report, but what I'm asking you is whether or not we can use

13     dialectal characteristics as personal identifiers.  Can you tell, from

14     listening or reading someone's text, whether or not they came from a

15     certain region or from another region, or from hearing their voice?

16        A.   Mainly, it can be determined.  From personal experience, I can

17     tell you that I grew up in Bosnia, for instance.  The dialect there is

18     Herzegovinian Krajina.  This is a new Stokavian dialect.  For a long

19     time, I spoke Ijekavian dialect in Novi Sad and Belgrade, and as the

20     director of Serbia language of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences,

21     I spoke Ijekavian, but then I switched to Ekavian, which is not

22     difficult.  But I never, in speaking with people I knew or did not know,

23     I never wanted to hide my identity.  They used to ask me, for hundreds of

24     times, whether I originated from Uzice.  It is a town in Western Serbia.

25     The dialect spoken there -- the base dialect is the same as in my case,

Page 24552

 1     the Ijekavian.  And before departing to The Hague, when I spoke to Madam

 2     Beara, when we met, she said I spoke -- I was speaking like somebody from

 3     Uzice, that I lengthened some vowels like the people in Uzice.  When we

 4     talk about dialectological characteristics to determine somebody's

 5     origin, we have to deal with the dialect as a whole, as a linguistic

 6     system, and in this very prominent role is played by somebody's accent,

 7     by somebody's prisodics [phoen].  This cannot be hidden.

 8             Serbian language contains four inventories of accents or

 9     stresses.  Some two, some three, some have stresses like in Germany --

10     German or English.  Then quantities after the accented syllable cannot be

11     hidden, either.  Practice has shown that people who do not have a long

12     vowel after the stressed syllable cannot mimic that.

13             I've listened to Belic's speech, a recording of his speech, and

14     this Belic was the greatest linguist in Serbia, he originated from

15     Belgrade, and he did not have the long vowels after the stressed

16     syllables, which is characteristic of Belgrade.  We also know people who

17     are autochthonous Ekavians, and we know of people who best preserve the

18     politomy [phoen].  The best Ekavian literally-linked language has been

19     demonstrated by Professor Jovan Vukovic, who hailed from Dermitol [phoen]

20     and lived in Sarajevo.  Some people shove their vowels.  There are

21     different ways of expressing the same word.  Some swallow their vowels.

22     As Zivanovic used to write, somebody reduce their vowels.  Some have "ch"

23     and "dj" and not "ch" and "dj" as sounds.  Some characteristics cannot be

24     hidden.

25             So as I said, speech tells volumes about an individual.

Page 24553

 1        Q.   Thank you, and we'll get into that in more specific terms when we

 2     look at some of the intercepts before you, but we're talking about

 3     linguistics and linguistical characteristics, and what's a dialectal

 4     variant, if you can explain that to us?  Just briefly, if you don't mind.

 5        A.   Well, "dialectological variants," do you mean by that variants of

 6     this Serbian-Croatian literary language?

 7             It is known that recently, during the recent events in the

 8     Balkans, that the Croatian and Serbian linguistic community broke up,

 9     together with the common state, and it is known that Serbs and the Croats

10     for 100 years used to have a common literary language, the Serbo-Croatian

11     or Croat-Serbian.  It was reached in the following manner:  In Zagreb,

12     after a lengthy discussion, very fierce debate in 1889, the Croatian

13     Parliament, the Sabor, adopted the decision to promulgate the new

14     Stokavian common Vuk Karadzic type of language as the official language.

15     Immediately after that in Zagreb, they published the instruments -- the

16     textbooks of that language.  1892, Ivan Broz published the Croatian

17     orthography.  Then Tomo Maratic [phoen], a major scientist, published the

18     grammar and stylistics of the Croatian or Serbian language.  And then in

19     1902, Ivan Broz and his uncle, Vrankovic [phoen], published the

20     dictionary of the Croatian language.  In the preambles and the forewords

21     of all these publications, it is written that they were modelled after

22     Vuk Karadzic and his most prominent follower, Ljubo Danicic and that they

23     used examples for their textbooks from Vuk Karadzic and Danicic's works.

24     Maratic explained this by saying that he did so in his desire to take

25     from the best, and Vuk was, in his words, the best among us, what Cicero

Page 24554

 1     was for the Romans, Vuk Karadzic was for us.  These were the times when

 2     people wanted to strive for some common purposes, and therefore we

 3     received a common language.  It was never the same, because there were,

 4     from the very beginning, some regional variance and differences.  History

 5     made sure that the eastern variant of the language remains Ekavian and

 6     that Zagreb spoke Ijekavian.  There were attempts to unify those, but

 7     they failed.  There were consistent differences between the eastern and

 8     the western variant in the lexic, in words, and this is why in Zagreb,

 9     just as other Slavic languages under the Hapsburg monarchy, translated

10     Germanic words, in the fear of Germanisation, into their languages,

11     whereas in Serbia we adopted words.  In Serbia, for instance, it was

12     schnitzel.  In Zagreb it was "odrezak."  So there were linguistic norms,

13     prescribed norms, but of course in life the linguistic practice differed

14     from the norm.

15             What is the most important for our story in all this is when it

16     comes to the "jat," the long "jat," that's the Ijekavian reflex of the

17     "jat," it is -- so that this "jat" is reflected in "dijeta" [phoen] and

18     "lijepo" [phoen], as prescribed by orthography, but in speech from

19     Zagreb, you can hear "lijepo" or "dijeta," very short "jat."  This

20     illustrates the dialectal -- dialectological variance, and this gave

21     birth to divergent languages.

22        Q.   Thank you for that answer.  Now, I think we understand dialectal

23     variance a little bit.  And I'm getting this from -- just so -- if you

24     can follow along --

25        A.   Could you please repeat your question?  I did not hear it.  Could

Page 24555

 1     you repeat your question, please?

 2        Q.   I will.  Thank you, Professor.  I'd like to direct your attention

 3     briefly to the last page of your report, which is page 30, and that's why

 4     I'm asking you about the dialectal variance and the linguistical

 5     characters.  And just so I can get a brief answer on this.  And we'll get

 6     back to the different accents and the dialects and the regions from which

 7     they come.  But my question, if you look on the last page of your report,

 8     the second-to-last paragraph, you reference morphological feature, and

 9     what I'd just like to know, you reference a word called morphological

10     feature and what I'd like to just know, even briefer than your last

11     answer, if you can provide us with a better explanation or understanding

12     of what a morphological feature is.

13             And I could direct your attention, if the Court doesn't mind,

14     it's the second-to-last paragraph, in the middle of that sentence -- or

15     in the middle of the paragraph, I should say.

16        A.   In the middle?  I'm not sure whether we have the same texts.  Do

17     you mean the conclusion?

18        Q.   Yes.  The second-to-the-last paragraph, so I think it's page 29

19     in B/C/S.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

22        Q.   We'll get back to this.  I just want to have a foundation and a

23     basis so that we can have a discussion here and have a better

24     understanding.

25             The paragraph starts, Professor, as follows -- are you on the

Page 24556

 1     last page?  You can put your headset directly on top of your head.  That

 2     might help you a little.

 3        A.   I'm too short.  I'll have to go upwards in the text.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5        A.   Can you start speaking so I can check whether I can hear you?

 6     Now it's better.

 7        Q.   The paragraph -- second-to-the-last paragraph of your report of

 8     the 18th of April, 2008, starts as follows:

 9             "A comparison of the language of the alleged intercepts and

10     Mr. Beara's current manner of speech has brought to the surface the

11     diametric opposition."

12             You go on to identify these dialectal variants and this

13     morphological feature.  And if you look specifically on page 29 -- so

14     turn to your report, which is in B/C/S, on page 29.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you see the highlighted word on the very last sentence on

17     page 29 of the B/C/S, which says "sjor"?

18        A.   Yes, I can see it, I can see it now.

19        Q.   It's that line immediately above that, and you use the word

20     "morphological feature" and all I'm trying to do so that I can better

21     understand your report, Professor, is to have you explain what that

22     means.  And we'll come back to the conclusion.  So just tell me from a

23     linguistical standpoint or a dialectologist's standpoint, what does it

24     mean when you reference a morphological feature?  What are morphological

25     features?

Page 24557

 1        A.   Morphological features are forms -- is a conjugation and a

 2     declination, forms of cases of nouns, pronouns, adjectives and numbers,

 3     and conjugation refers to verbs.  Then we have phonemes, which are

 4     sounds, and these are forms, these are words.

 5        Q.   Now, just tell me, if you can just as briefly, what a lexical

 6     domain is?  And, again, you reference that in your report, I think, three

 7     words after "morphological feature," so just so we could have a better

 8     understanding of that.

 9        A.   "Lexical domain" means words.  Language, as a system, has several

10     domains; phonological, morphological, lexic and syntactical.  Lexic is

11     the most open domain to foreign influences.  There is a proverb, there

12     are no limitations, there are no boundaries to a language with words

13     which are borrowed from other languages.  They follow technology that we

14     borrow from other civilization as well.  For instance, words referring to

15     the material, spiritual culture, these are the vocabulary that we adopt,

16     this is the lexic.  And this domain contains most borrowed words and

17     terms in any language, because this subsystem is the most open of them

18     all.  Our dialect reflects the very tumultuous history of this area.

19     There were guests arriving here, both invited and uninvited.  In the

20     literal -- or along the coastline, you have many Romanisms.  In the

21     north, Vojvodina, we have many borrowed words from the Hungarian.  Then

22     all over the place, we had many Turkish borrowed terms because of five

23     centuries of Ottoman domination, then from German language.  Then when

24     ideologies converged, we have many Russian words as borrowed words, and

25     now we cannot defend ourselves from Anglocisms.  This has always been so

Page 24558

 1     and it will always be so.

 2        Q.   I just want to clarify a word that you mentioned earlier today.

 3     When you discuss these regions and the influences by other entities

 4     within the region of the former Yugoslavia, you mentioned on page 10,

 5     line 3, the word "topology."  Could you just define that for us?  I think

 6     we understand what you mean.  It's not in your report.  It was actually

 7     page 10, line 3 of today's transcript, Professor.  So just tell me what

 8     you mean when you say the word "topology."

 9        A.   Typology, like as in type, typology.  This is a typo here.

10     Typology of dialects, types, classes, categories, classification of

11     dialects, this is typology.  This is not topology.  It must have been a

12     mistake by either me or whoever transcribed this.

13        Q.   Thank you for that.  We just wanted to clarify that.  A couple

14     more definitions and I'm sorry for that, but I just want to make sure

15     that I have a better understanding of your report.  What is a linguistic

16     diachronic or diachronics within linguistics?

17        A.   This is a study of a language through a historical period,

18     diachronical study.  Diachronic linguistics or dynamic linguistics means

19     that it studies a history of a form or of a language.  Synchrony is

20     opposite of diachrony.  Synchrony means right now this is a study of

21     languages or a linguistic system or a certain feature in a cross-section

22     in time, a snapshot in time.  This today means this description of

23     today's status of the linguistic system of a language.  Diachrony is

24     history and synchrony is today.  This is in the most simplest terms.

25        Q.   And just tell us the various regions, republics of former

Page 24559

 1     Yugoslavia, did it have a variant from one republic to the other as to

 2     what the dialect was that was spoken by the people residing in a certain

 3     area?

 4        A.   The Serbo-Croatian linguistic area is divided into three

 5     dialectic complexes, the Stokavian, the Kajkavian, and the Stokavian --

 6     and the Cakavian.  Stokavian is the most widely spread, originated in the

 7     medieval Serbian states and adjoining areas.  The Cakavian dialect was

 8     created in the medieval Dalmatian Croatia and the adjoining areas, and

 9     the Kajkavian dialect originated from the Pannonian area of today's

10     Croatia, of Slavonija.  Boundaries of these three dialects moved.  There

11     were migrations which are a very important fact of the dialectology, both

12     Serbian and Croatian.  With the invasion of the Ottoman Turks, there were

13     mass migrations, the Cakavian dialect boundary was moved and Cakavian

14     dialect expanded at the expense of the Cakavian due to those migrations.

15     Cakavian dialect's boundary used to be more to the west than genetically

16     Stokavian and Cakavian are closer together, whereas Kajkavian dialect is

17     closer to Slovene.

18        Q.   Thank you, Professor, but the transcript is having a little bit

19     of trouble keeping up with us, and I apologise for that.  And just so

20     that I'm clear, you mentioned -- I'm probably going to butcher it,

21     Stokavian and then you also mentioned Kajkavian, and the one that we

22     didn't get was the Cakavian, which is "C," with an accent on it,

23     a-k-a-v-i-a-n; correct?  It just didn't come up on the transcript, and I

24     want to verify that that's the third one.  Is that correct, Professor?

25        A.   Well, for our purposes, the Cakavian dialect is very important.

Page 24560

 1     Kajkavian is of no import for us today dealing with this matter.  The

 2     Cakavian originated and was created in the medieval Dalmatian Croatia, in

 3     the hinterland, very narrow swath of hinterland, and on the islands.  The

 4     Unacetina [phoen] line was the western boundary of the Cakavian which was

 5     pushed back due to migrations.

 6             Is there a need to further analyse the distinction between the

 7     Cakavian and the Stokavian, or would this suffice for the time being?

 8        Q.   For the time being, it does suffice.  Thank you.  I just wanted

 9     to make sure all three were properly in the record so that we can follow

10     it together.

11             Now, within each of these, are there various or variant dialects?

12     For example, in the Cakavian one, are there different dialects that are

13     from that region, which is the Dalmatian, as you described, and Croatian

14     region?

15        A.   As I said at the beginning, the dialectal core of Serbian,

16     Croatian and Bosniak, very differentiated.  There is a jigsaw puzzle of

17     those dialects, and within the dialects, of course, there are

18     differences.  Within the Cakavian dialect, there are three different

19     modes of speech.  We have the Ekavian and Cakavian in the west, like deta

20     [phoen].  Further to the south, we have Ikavian, like in dica [phoen],

21     which is spoken in Split, which is very important for us for this case,

22     the Ikavian.  And there is an Ekavian-Ikavian transitional dialect which

23     is not of interest to us.  And in the very south, the island of Lastovo

24     speaks Ijekovski, Ijekavian, and there are differences between

25     Stokavians, Ikavians, Ekavians and Ijekavians.  Cakavians do not have

Page 24561

 1     Ikavski and Ijekovski.  We are going to discuss this further on.

 2             In the distribution and classification of dialects, the sound

 3     "jat" is the most important element to distinguish the dialects among

 4     themselves.

 5        Q.   And we will -- trust me, we will get back to this "jat" and to

 6     discuss that among other features and variants within the language, but

 7     right now I'd like for the Court, with its permission, to direct their

 8     attention and my learned friends to appendix 3 of your report, which is a

 9     dialect map.  And I happen to have the original book that I think you

10     referenced.

11             With the Court's permission, I have provided my learned friends

12     the book so they could see it.  This is the only original we have.

13     I think it's better colour-coded, so if the Court doesn't mind, although

14     it's in e-court, maybe we could just very briefly go through the

15     different regions within this book.  And it's three pages, two of which

16     are attached to his report, so it would be this page and this page, and

17     then also ... thank you.

18             And, Professor, as we're putting the book on the ELMO, can you

19     tell me, what is this book?

20        A.   This is an excerpt from the Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia.  The

21     entry is Serbo-Croatian, Croat Serbian language, Croatian or Serbian

22     language, and here you can see a summary of the history of the national

23     language, the history of the literary language, and the dialectological

24     complex of the Serbs and the Croats.  The book came from the hands of the

25     two leading Serbian and Croatian linguists of their time.  Those were

Page 24562

 1     Pavle Ilic, a member of the academy that I've already mentioned and

 2     another member of the academy, Dalibor Brozovic, the leading Croatian and

 3     Serbian linguists, and the latter is still alive today.  This is a

 4     summary of what can be found in the Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia.

 5        Q.   And because you use it, sir, in your appendix 3, I just wanted

 6     the Court and my learned friends to have it so they could look at it as

 7     well, and it's a little better because we didn't have colour copies to

 8     attach to your report.

 9             The first one you can see, which is on the screen hopefully

10     before you and directly to the right on the ELMO is the Cakavian one; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   Yes.  Here, yes, yes, this is the Cakavian dialect, of course.

13     Yes, that's clear.

14        Q.   In fact, it says so right on top, right on the top of the page.

15     And below that, although we can't see it on the ELMO yet, is the

16     different dialects from that specific region, and if the Court permits,

17     if the usher could just zoom out a little.  You can see it there, and

18     I think the grid below on the lower left-hand side -- if we could have

19     the whole page, that would be helpful, if possible.  On the lower

20     left-hand side of that page, it actually highlights with different

21     colours what the various dialects are that you previously identified for

22     us; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And if we could turn to the next page, which is a

25     two-page map of the former Yugoslavia and various regions, which identify

Page 24563

 1     the Stokavian; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And then the third one, which you say is not necessarily relevant

 4     to --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   -- our purposes is the third page, the very next page, which is

 7     the Kajkavian?

 8        A.   Kajkavian, yes.

 9        Q.   And as to each --

10        A.   It's irrelevant for today's story, that's for sure.  And as for

11     the Cakavian, only the Ikavian-Cakavian is interesting.  That's the

12     speech commonly used in Split and its environs.  That's what we are

13     interested in today.

14        Q.   And I just wanted us to have it for purposes of completeness so

15     that we could see the entire former region and how the various dialects

16     were distributed or utilized in the former Yugoslavia.  So with the

17     Court's permission and the usher's assistance, if we can please turn to

18     the first photograph, which is the Cakavian, yes, that one, with the

19     various dialects on the bottom that we see, correct, and I think you were

20     proceeding to tell us that it's this one that for our purposes is

21     important.  So can you please set forth for us the differences, if any,

22     in the dialects within these regions where they spoke Cakavian?

23        A.   The differences exist within Cakavian, but they're of not so much

24     importance for us.  In the west, there is the Ekavian variant, which can

25     be found in the basis of the words such as in "pesma," and it is also

Page 24564

 1     preserved in the declination.  For example, we say "ugradu" [phoen], and

 2     in the old dialect they used to say "vagrada" [phoen], and this has been

 3     preserved.  And now in the Ekavian, which is in blue, we have also a

 4     transitional area Ekavian Ikavian, where according to the Myer and

 5     Kabinsky [phoen] rules, the "jat" results in the vowel E or I, and in the

 6     south we have the island of Lastovo where people use Ijekavian variant of

 7     the dialect.

 8             I don't know how interesting this might be for you when it comes

 9     to the phonetics that analyse or differentiate the Cakavian dialect.  We

10     can also speak about the semivowel, the short, accentuated semivowel.

11     For example, on the island of Krk we have a long vowel that results in an

12     "a" and the shortened "o," whereas on the island of Cres, the long and

13     the short vowel result in different vowels, and also when it comes to the

14     Cakavian features, we have an entire Cakavian area that is swamped under

15     the Roman influences.  This is what we call the so-called Adriatisms or

16     the adopted words.  First they were called Adriatisms, and now they are

17     called Dalmatianism upon Brozovic's proposal, and that is what is used

18     today in the linguistic science.  These are various features that have

19     developed under the influence of the Romanic neighbours with whom these

20     people had to coexist, and this is what we can find in "L," such in

21     Ljubo, which transformed in a "J", Ljubo, and then we have the

22     transformation of "M" into "N," and hence the anecdotes involving the

23     words "I am" or "I am not," "yes" and [indiscernible] that we heard from

24     Mr. Beara.  What we're interested in here is the Ikavian Cakavian dialect

25     as spoken in Split, and what I'm saying is that this is the only type of

Page 24565

 1     Cakavian that we are interested in here.

 2        Q.   And thank you for that, and we'll come back and focus

 3     particularly on that.  My general question to you, Professor -- and thank

 4     you, Mr. President and Madam Usher.  I think we don't need the book any

 5     further, but I'd like if we just make sure the colours are properly

 6     photocopied.  If not, I would just ask that we will amend it to put the

 7     three pages so that the Court has the proper colouring of the various

 8     dialects within the region.  But we can discuss that at another time, if

 9     the Court wishes.

10             If I may proceed.

11             So, Professor, my question to you is -- yes, thank you.  Are

12     these dialects actually distinct and unique, and can a person such as

13     yourself, a linguist and a dialectologist, can you, immediately upon

14     hearing one's speech, identify primarily from what region a person may

15     come from?

16        A.   Dialects differ.  They bear different names because of the

17     differences.  Their different names reflect their differences.  That's

18     one thing.

19             Second of all, when it comes to identifying somebody, there are

20     two approaches present or two angles.  The first principle is the

21     principle of elimination.  I have to eliminate where the person is not

22     from, if you know that person.

23             Dialects, when we talk about people speaking Stokavian and

24     Cakavian, they have different variants, and the differences are even

25     bigger.  There are differences within dialects within groups of people

Page 24566

 1     speaking the same dialect.  These differences are not always of the same

 2     intensity or of the same type, but they are clearly discernible.  An

 3     expert, a competent expert, that is, can, without any major problems,

 4     identify the person as speaking a certain dialect if that person is using

 5     the dialect.  If you give a -- provide a dialectologist with five tapes

 6     with five different dialects, he will listen to them, and within ten

 7     minutes he will be able to identify the speech that the dialects come

 8     from.  This is for sure.

 9             And, finally, ultimately, even people who are not experts, who

10     are not competent, who are not specialists in the field, based on the

11     experience from their contacts with people from different areas, people

12     can actually tell.  Also, they can do it based on the names.  For

13     example, if people speak like me, based on the name, they can be

14     originated back to the Western Serbia.

15        Q.   Okay.  I know we eliminated one of them, the Kajkavian one.  Can

16     you draw a distinction ever so briefly between the Stok avian and the

17     Kajkavian speech patterns and the relevance to your task that was

18     assigned?  And just if you can, show us or draw the distinction between

19     the two, if possible.

20        A.   If I'm not mistaken, you're referring to Cakavian and not

21     Kajkavian.  We have eliminated the Kajkavian.  Are you referring to the

22     area from which Mr. Beara hails and where he comes from, where he

23     resided?  If the answer is "yes," then it's Cakavian, not Kajkavian.

24        Q.   I may have misspoken, but I thought I had it right.

25        A.   Yes, you have misspoken, yes.

Page 24567

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Between Stokavian and Cakavian, can you draw any

 2     distinction so that we could better understand it between the two and

 3     what relevance it had to your assignment, if any?

 4        A.   The basic and the most discernible difference between the three

 5     speeches that have given these speeches, their names is the form of the

 6     pronoun in German "vas" [phoen], or in Latin -- if that would be "quid,"

 7     that would be "stokaj" [phoen] and "cha" [phoen].  That's the pronoun

 8     that has been given the names to these speeches.

 9             The next difference is between the Stokavians and the Cakavians

10     comes from the accents, from the prosody.  The Stokavians have two short

11     accents, the short rising, as in "djena" [phoen] and "zesta" [phoen], and

12     they have a descending accent in the vocative, as in "djena" and "zestro"

13     [phoen].  This is very unique in European terms.

14             Furthermore, the difference between Stokavians and Cakavians also

15     arises from the different vowels they use.  Stokavian people speaking

16     Stokavian have explosing [as interpreted] affects, at least one.  They

17     have a "dje" and a "gdje" and many have even a "dze."  For example,

18     "major," in Cakavian it is "meja."  We have "dje" and they don't have it,

19     and many of our speeches also have a "dze."  Obviously, this is in

20     dialects.

21             In Stokavian, the noun may be expanded into "craljevi" [phoen]

22     and "crajevi" [phoen], and in Cakavian it is "kralaj" [phoen] and "kraj"

23     [phoen].  The vowels and the consonants are under the influence of the

24     Roman speech or the Roman dialect.  There is a lot more Roman words, and

25     in our parts there are a lot more Turkish words, German words, and those

Page 24568

 1     influences.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for those examples.  I know there are many,

 3     many, many more, but let's just, for the purpose of brevity, just try to

 4     give these couple of examples and we'll go on with the rest of your

 5     report where you can highlight for us, if you don't mind, Professor, some

 6     of these other distinguishing features and variants.

 7             What I'd like to know, sir, here is you mentioned that you

 8     reviewed four things in connection with the intercepts on Mr. Beara, the

 9     NIOD report, statements from witnesses, the transcript and a short

10     biography.  Can you share with us who provided you with the background of

11     Mr. Beara's biography?

12        A.   As for the background of Mr. Beara's biography, it was one of the

13     lawyers who has provided me with those.  One of you gave that to me,

14     either John Ostojic or Stanisic, or somebody in Belgrade.

15        Q.   And the person in Belgrade with whom I think you met when I was

16     there on a couple of occasions was one of our investigators, Mr. Milan

17     Stanic; correct?

18        A.   Milan Stanic, yes, yes, that's what I said, Mr. Stanic.  Milan

19     Stanic was the one, I suppose.  I suppose that Milan Stanic gave this to

20     me.

21        Q.   It doesn't really matter who gave it to you.  Just share with us

22     what is the information that was provided to you regarding Mr. Beara's

23     biography, if you don't mind.

24        A.   Mr. Beara's biography is something that was necessary.  I needed

25     it.  I was supposed to elaborate my methodology based on that biography.

Page 24569

 1     I was supposed to elaborate my methodology based on that biography.  I

 2     was supposed to adopt an approach based on that biography.  I wanted to

 3     see where he resided, where he worked, and I needed to compare the

 4     dialectology situations or the speech variants in the various places

 5     where he resided, where he grew up, and to compare that with the language

 6     of those alleged intercepts.

 7             Since he grew up in Sarajevo, and when he turned 19 he moved to

 8     the coast, then he spent most of his career in the Cakavian territory,

 9     and he often travelled across the hinterland inhabited by the Herzegovina

10     and Krajina dialect-speaking people.  In the transcripts I was looking

11     for the links that might tie the transcripts with Sarajevo or the area

12     where he subsequently lived and worked.  I must admit that I had expected

13     to find some traces of the dialects from his youth and childhood.

14             Let's be clear on one thing.  When you analyse a speech or the

15     linguistic patterns used by a high-ranking officer of the Yugoslav

16     People's Army, then you have to start from the fact that that person will

17     probably speak a very correct literal language and that the dialect or

18     the localisms are a minority.  They may creep in as something that cannot

19     be hidden and that will reveal the origin of that person.

20             I was also interested in the fact whether the literal language

21     spoken by that person, whether it was the so-called western variant or

22     the eastern variant, as spoken in the former common state, and this is

23     where I wanted to find my departure point or the orientation point from

24     which I could see how things stood.  Obviously, most of the work I

25     carried out and most of the effort I invested before I actually met with

Page 24570

 1     Mr. Beara and before my conversation with him.

 2        Q.   Did you give -- did you request that you meet with Mr. Beara so

 3     that you could fully understand his linguistics characteristics and the

 4     dialect that he may be speaking today?  Did you meet with him, actually?

 5        A.   I must say that if I'm not mistaken, quite a long time ago I

 6     expressed my wish to meet with Mr. Beara.  It took a while for my wish to

 7     be granted, and we actually met on the 7th and 8th of April this year in

 8     the Detention Unit in Scheveningen.

 9        Q.   And just briefly before our next break, if you can tell us who

10     was present during the first meeting you had with Mr. Beara at the UNDU?

11        A.   Mr. John Ostojic, Ms. Jelena Dzambasovic, the interpreter, and

12     the lawyer from -- he was tall and he --

13        Q.   Can I help you?  Chris Meek?

14        A.   Chris Meek, yes, yes, yes.  He was there the first day, and the

15     following day it was just Mr. Ostojic, Ms. Dzambasovic and myself on the

16     second day.

17        Q.   Tell us with respect to the -- what was your purpose for wanting

18     to meet with Mr. Beara?

19        A.   From the very beginning of my cooperation with the Defence

20     counsel, I was faced with a major handicap, which was the lack of any

21     audio recordings.  I only had the transcripts of the alleged intercepted

22     conversations, very poor in linguistical terms, and we will speak about

23     the difficulties that I encountered there a bit later, and I wanted to

24     hear the way Mr. Beara speaks now.  I wanted to meet him and see how the

25     written language, as encountered in the transcripts that are attributed

Page 24571

 1     to Mr. Beara compare with his actual speech today.  I wanted to draw a

 2     comparison and see.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So, in essence, you were doing an evaluation and

 4     analysis of his current speech pattern, despite the fact that it was 13

 5     years after the purported intercept conversations that were captured,

 6     from 1995 to 2008?

 7        A.   Yes.  I must admit that I was very surprised with what I heard.

 8        Q.   Professor, we'll --

 9        A.   -- in my conversation with Mr. Beara.  As it turned out, in free

10     communication with the Defence lawyer, the interpreter, and me as the

11     expert, he used the Cakavian dialect as spoken in Split.  This is the

12     typical Cakavian Split dialect.

13             Now, when he uses the features of a literary language, then as a

14     rule it is the Croatian variant of the once common language which is

15     today known as the Croatian language.  I was more than surprised with the

16     fact that after such a long time, he still uses the Split dialect, and my

17     general observation, which will be elaborated a bit further, is that his

18     current speech is in sharp collision with what can be found in the

19     transcripts of the alleged intercepts.  There is a very sharp collision

20     between those transcripts and the speech pattern that he uses today.

21        Q.   And let me just spend a couple of minutes that we have with

22     respect to those meetings.

23             The first meeting, you did basically observations between the

24     conversations that Mr. Beara and others in the room had, and you were

25     basically observing us talking and discussing various things; would that

Page 24572

 1     be accurate?

 2             And I apologise for leading.  I just want to get through this

 3     little section.

 4             Is that right, Professor Remetic, that the first day, you were

 5     observing as I was talking with Mr. Beara, and on the second day, just to

 6     show somewhat of a difference, you were actually asking him certain

 7     questions and certain words, and you were taking notes; correct?

 8        A.   I remember the first sentence that Mr. Beara uttered.  He asked

 9     Ms.  Dzambasovic, "Why are you so pale?"  That was the first thing he

10     said.  I must say that I was surprised.  The time that I spent in

11     Scheveningen and the conversation that I had with Mr. Beara was a major

12     experience for me and a major revelation which was rife with surprises.

13     In that case, I could do what I am not allowed to do as a dialectologist.

14     When a dialectologist goes into the field to talk to people, there are no

15     suggestions allowed or any questions.  This is strictly forbidden.

16             On the first day, I had a notebook in my hand and I was

17     eavesdropping on the conversation between the people.  It was a rather

18     relaxed conversation.  The mood was relaxed.  He was talking to -- Beara

19     was talking to his lawyer, the interpreter.  There was a cup of coffee in

20     front of everybody.  They were joking.  I was listening to them and I was

21     taking notes.  I was there in my capacity as a dialectologist, and I was

22     very surprised when I heard him speak, the way he spoke.  And when I

23     realised that I was dealing with a person of a very high level of

24     intelligence, very cooperative, very noble in his willingness to

25     cooperate, I could even put some questions to him, I could ask him about

Page 24573

 1     certain linguistic forms.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I just want to clear up these two things.  And just

 3     so the record's clear, you kept and created notes during those two

 4     meetings which we have for the record and as my learned friend knows,

 5     we've identified them or a copy of those notes as 2D584; is that correct,

 6     Professor Remetic?  Not that you need to know the number, but you had

 7     provided us an original and we had copied the notes from that meeting?

 8        A.   I have provided you my original notes.  I didn't know that you

 9     would ask for them.  I was doodling, I was drafting my report.  I

10     underlined some things in black or green, I crossed some things over.

11     This was my working material, as you could see, and I've provided you

12     with that material and I've kept a copy for myself, obviously.

13        Q.   And we've sent it forward to the Prosecution, and I think I got

14     it -- when did you provide that to us; a couple of weeks ago when I saw

15     you in Belgrade?

16        A.   Yes, precisely.

17        Q.   Now, I want to come back to an issue that you said the first

18     sentence or the first words you heard Mr. Beara utter was with respect of

19     Ms. Dzambasovic's pale complexion.  Now, can you tell us, in the

20     different dialects, how would you say the word "pale"?

21        A.   Well, this is what it's all about.  Obviously, we're dealing with

22     the "jat."  In Ekavian, it would be "bleda," in Ikavian it would be

23     "bljeda," in Ijekavian it would be --

24        Q.   Excuse me.  You're going a little way too fast, and we're having

25     a hard time hearing even the distinction between the three.  So if you

Page 24574

 1     can just please kindly -- and I know we're ready for a break --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, exactly.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  And maybe we could take a deep breath and take a

 4     break here.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Exactly.  That's what I was going to suggest.

 6     Twenty-five minutes, please.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             Thank you, Professor Remetic.  If we could proceed, but if I

11     could just clarify the last -- before the break, we just had a little

12     discussion of the word "pale," and I'm going to spell it, and I ask my

13     colleague if I can lead a little bit on this so we have it on the

14     transcript.

15        Q.   It's my understanding, sir, that there's at least three ways that

16     you could say the word "pale" in Serbian, depending on the dialect.  The

17     first one would be "bleda," which is b-l-e-d-a, the second one is

18     "blijeda," which is b-l-i-j-e-d-a, and the third one is "bljeda," which

19     is b-l-j-e-d-a.

20             Am I correct that those are the three that you were trying to

21     convey to us before the break?

22        A.   Yes, these are the three basic ways.  Of course, "bleda" is

23     literally prescribed, "blijeda" is also literally, and "bljeda" with l-j

24     is a dialect form of the word.

25        Q.   And that's the third one.  Can you tell us of those three, which

Page 24575

 1     one Mr. Beara utilised in describing Ms. Dzambasovic?

 2        A.   Before me, I have my notes, and the first word is "blijeda," and

 3     the next is "bleda."  When I first heard that --

 4        Q.   I apologise for interrupting.  If you could be kind enough, and

 5     I think we have it, but just for our purposes here, to spell it out as

 6     well.  And you have the transcript in front of you, and I know your

 7     English is limited, but I think you can see when they don't pick up some

 8     of the words that you're using.

 9             So, again, the first word that you used is "blijeda,"

10     B-L-I-J-E-D-A; correct?

11        A.   Yes, the first one is "blijeda," which is the norm of the Serbian

12     and Croatian literary language.  In the Serbs of the Ijekavian type and

13     in the Croatian language of the literary type.  "Bleda," B-L-E-D-A, is

14     the norm of the Serbian literary language, the Ekavian variant; for

15     instance, as spoken in Belgrade.  And "blida," B-L-I-D-A, is a dialect.

16     This is not a literary norm.

17        Q.   Okay.  Were you able to derive anything from the characteristics

18     of Mr. Beara's speech in utilising these first words in your first

19     impression?

20        A.   As I said, the "jat" sound, how it is reflected in the dialects,

21     is the most important element in classifying the Croatian and Serbian and

22     Bosniak dialects, and from the very moment I heard "ubljdila," "going

23     pale," U-B-L-J-D-I-L-A, and "stosimi bljeda," "why are you so pale,"

24     B-L-J-E-D, that what I had confronted was a Croatian literary language.

25     And the Croatian spoken variant of the literary language, because in

Page 24576

 1     Croatian textbooks it is prescribed that it should stand as

 2     B-L-I-J-E-D-A, but in spoken practice mainly, this is reduced to a single

 3     syllable pronunciation of "blijeda," B-L-I-J-E-D-A.  "Blijeda" can be

 4     heard in Serbian speeches, speech types -- yes, this is correct, yes --

 5     can be heard, as I said, in Serbian speech types of the Adriatic

 6     hinterland, where Mr. Beara often resided as part of his duties.  This is

 7     the way it is spoken in Zagorje, or the hinterland, in Dalmatia, where

 8     Serbs live, in Lika, and it was clear to me from the very first moment

 9     that there were no traces of the Sarajevo speech type where -- which

10     would be "blijeda" or I-J-E-D-A.  So he did not speak, in terms of

11     dialect or literary language, like the inhabitants of his native

12     Sarajevo.

13             I had a dilemma, whether the word "bljed," B-L-J-E-D originated

14     from the Croatian spoke literary language as spoken in Split.  When one

15     tries to speak correctly, using the literary language, or whether it went

16     for the reflex or influence of Serbian speech types of the hinterland of

17     the coast, as I mentioned.  Very soon, I got my answer, and on the first

18     page of my notes, which look like this [indicates] because I did not know

19     in advance that this would be used subsequently - this is my working

20     material - very soon I heard Ikavian features instead of Sarajevoian

21     Uvijek, always, U-V-I-J-E-K, and what is also the literary form.

22     Mr. Beara would always say "uvik," U-V-I-K.

23             Furthermore, similar examples were to follow.  For instance,

24     "Dida," instead of "Djed," D-J-E-D or "Djed," among the Serbs, Ekavians,

25     or "deda" like in Ekavian, then the verb "triba," T-R-I-B-A, after ten or

Page 24577

 1     so minutes, to my surprise, I realised and I was surprised, but I

 2     realised that Mr. Beara, in free, open conversation with his

 3     interlocutors and people he knew, and in that context I was there for the

 4     first time, that he speaks the Cakavian-Ikavian Split dialect or speech

 5     type.  And it will later transpire, when he would be speaking literary

 6     forms, that he would be using, as a rule, the Croatian or western variant

 7     of the once-common language, which is today the Croatian literary

 8     language.

 9             Mr. Beara's speech on the 7th and the 8th, and the language of

10     the transcripts are -- as a rule, are two different, disparate

11     categories.  They're incompatible, as a rule.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And we'll come back to that specific opinion that you

13     have a little later, as it's reflected in your report.  I'd like to ask

14     you now, and we're going to move along in your report, if possible, but

15     first:  Did you feel that the seven to eight hours was adequate and

16     sufficient for you to evaluate the speech pattern of Mr. Beara in order

17     to assist you in formulating your analysis and opinions that you're

18     providing in your report and here today?

19        A.   The seven or eight hours spent with Mr. Beara, which were filled

20     not only by his speech, understandably we spoke also, Defence counsel

21     spoke, I joined in the conversation, I asked him questions,

22     understandably is not sufficient to write a dissertation or a study about

23     his speech patterns.  One would need a larger corpus of discourse.

24             Let me remind you that my doctoral thesis was written on the

25     basis of 200 hours of recordings.  This is something completely

Page 24578

 1     different.  But this, however, was sufficient to draw conclusions to get

 2     the general picture, and Mr. Beara identified himself in terms of his

 3     today's speech patterns during the first or initial stage of my

 4     conversation.  And on the first page of my notes, I jotted down the most

 5     material bit, and it is sufficient, when it comes to the content of the

 6     transcripts, which hopefully we'll elaborate on later, is later scarce,

 7     very poor, very limited.  In terms of subject matter, it's very narrow,

 8     and in terms of quantity, it is insufficient.  But most probably we will

 9     cover these later on.

10             So it was sufficient to hear Mr. Beara, that 17 years after he

11     left Split, that he is in good command of the Split Cakavian speech.

12        Q.   In your professional experience, Mr. Remetic, can a person shift

13     from one dialect to another within a relative brief period, given that

14     you observed and conducted examination of Mr. Beara both in a casual as

15     well as a formal question-and-answer session?  Can a person shift that

16     quickly or are you, as a professional, able to detect specifically those

17     dialects and those differences in his dialect and speech?

18        A.   When it comes to Mr. Beara, he did not switch that quickly.  As I

19     know he spent some 20 years living in that area, I must say that I gave

20     it quite a bit of thought and I mused how he pulled it off that, in front

21     of me, to deviate from his dialect and to accept -- to suppress his own

22     dialect, to adopt a different dialect, and to stick to it after so many

23     years.  For me, this presented a great problem, to decipher this

24     conundrum, if we depart from the presumption that the transcripts may be

25     connected with the name of Mr. Beara.  He was an Ikavian speaker before

Page 24579

 1     the end of the war.  How could he have abandoned his speech patterns and

 2     then readopted, after the war, and during this middle period he spoke

 3     something else?  For me, this is a challenge, I must tell you.

 4             And if you allow me and if this is the proper place to say it,

 5     I can tell you, as a person who is nearing his academic career, research

 6     career, a man with a wealth of experience, I've heard many dialects

 7     spoken out in the field, and had I -- if I were 30 years younger, I would

 8     have found a way to research, in depth, the speech patterns of Mr. Beara

 9     to see how could one switch to another dialect and to stick to it.  This

10     would be a very good subject matter for research, for study.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you mention in your report various limitations

12     or problems that you experienced in reviewing the documents that were

13     provided to you, and directing your attention to Roman numeral VI of your

14     report, Professor, you list specifically five.  And just briefly, I'd

15     like to go over them with you, although you've mentioned some of them,

16     such as a lack of audio recording which would be beneficial and helpful

17     to you.  And the second aspect of it is you see the difficulty with the

18     fragmentation of the linguistic expression of the alleged intercepts, and

19     then you talk about number 3, which is the linguistic corpus, which

20     I think in essence, and you correct me if I'm wrong -- which was the

21     material that was provided to you was limited, in the sense in the number

22     of conversations and/or the length of the conversation.  Would that be

23     accurate?

24        A.   Unfortunately, all these things are true, and these presented

25     difficulties.

Page 24580

 1        Q.   And then you list two other limitations or problems that you

 2     experienced with respect to the material that was provided to us by the

 3     Office of the Prosecution, and that is I think you looked at some of the

 4     statements and you felt that there was choppiness or lack of clarity of

 5     the recording, based on specifically the handwritten transcripts.  If you

 6     remember on some of them, they had specifically the three dots, which is

 7     standard for words that were omitted because they are unclear, ambiguous

 8     or indiscernible; that would be another problem that you saw within those

 9     manuscripts, if we can call them that; correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And then you list out, as a fifth problem or limitation that you

12     found particularly difficult was the orthographic and grammatical rules,

13     and you identify enclitic and proclitic.  And just for our benefit, could

14     you expand on that and tell me what an enclitic and proclitic is, but

15     very briefly, and why did you find that somewhat problematic for you?

16        A.   Enclitics are words, in the Serbian language, which do not have

17     their own independent stress but are pronounced together with the

18     preceding words, and they such create a stress unit.  And enclitics are

19     usually truncated or shortened versions of verbs, pronouns, or ligatures.

20        Q.   In essence, really an enclitic is what goes at the end of a word

21     and a proclitic is what goes at the --

22        A.   At the end or after the words.  The proclitics are words which do

23     not have their own accent or stress, but form an accent unit with the

24     ensuing word, the word they lean towards.  There are rules of how

25     enclitics and proclitics are to be written down, and there are -- there

Page 24581

 1     is the danger that less educated people may make mistakes in writing them

 2     down.

 3             For instance, the negation "nee," together with verbs, is to be

 4     written down separately, "nee" and then "radi," "nee jeda" [phoen],

 5     "doesn't eat," "nee prica" [phoen], "doesn't speak," but "neerad"

 6     [phoen], as a noun, has to be written as one word.

 7        Q.   I think.  I think that -- go ahead, please.

 8        A.   And then from the erroneous transcription of proclitics and

 9     enclitics, I derived an opinion that the operators were not, if I dare

10     say so, educated well enough, in terms of language, for that type of

11     work.  They had problems of that type.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And in that same section, you talk about

13     orthographic -- orthography, as well as phonological principles, and is

14     that basically what you were referencing now, those two concepts?  Or if

15     you like, you can explain those to us, and then we're going to move on to

16     the specifics here as soon as we can.

17        A.   Serbian, Croatian and Bosniak orthography, since everything

18     derives from the Vuk Karadzic principles, is a phonological orthography,

19     the so-called phonological orthography.  This is the Vuk's rule:  Write

20     as you speak and read as written.

21             Pursuant to those rules, there should be as many graphemes and

22     phonemes, there should be as many letters as there are sounds, and

23     everything should read as written.  "Scheveningen" would be ten letters,

24     ten sounds.  "Sudnica" would be seven letters, seven sounds.  There are

25     exceptions, however, in orthography -- words or forms, rather, are

Page 24582

 1     written down in such a manner as it would be impossible to pronounce

 2     them, in concrete terms.  "Ds" -- consonants "D" and "S," are different

 3     in terms of whether voiced or unvoiced in Serbian and Croatian and

 4     Bosniak language.  When they co-locate, there is an automatic shift and

 5     an alternation.  They are simulated by their characteristic of being

 6     voiced or unvoiced, and they cannot stand next to each other if they are

 7     different in this characteristic.  In the nominative, "Sudac," in the

 8     genitive case, "Sudica," they cannot stand together, or "Vrabac" in the

 9     nominative case and "Vrabica."  "D" and "S," "B" and "C" cannot be

10     pronounced, but they are written down in this form because this is the

11     correct orthography.  And in certain transcripts, when they say "odseku,"

12     O-D-S-E-K-U, or "predsidnik" [phoen], from that I saw that they adhered

13     to what they learnt in school.  They did recall some of these things,

14     because I'm sure that these things were not pronounced as they were

15     transcribed.  It is impossible to pronounce such clusters without much

16     effort, and people on the battlefield have other things to occupy

17     themselves with, and of course, this is not their job.

18        Q.   And let me ask you this:  You had the opportunity to review the

19     witness statements or testimony of the various -- or some of the

20     intercept operators.  Were you able to use, as a baseline, or determine

21     whether or not the operators used a certain technique or method in how

22     they would capture the conversation, or would they just interpret the

23     conversation as they wanted to, or what was their rule of thumb in

24     capturing some of these conversations, if you recall?

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Objection.  That's outside the field of his

Page 24583

 1     expertise.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment while I have to deal with this.

 3             Do you wish to respond to that?

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  I can lay further foundation, if the Court wishes.

 5     I'll do that.  I'll just ask him a question, and I think it will be clear

 6     to my learned friend.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move, Mr. Vanderpuye, because already as it

 8     is, it's getting very tiring.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:

10        Q.   Professor, when we look at the fourth limitation that you have in

11     your report under section 6, Roman numeral VI, you identify the

12     sloppiness or choppiness of various intercept transcripts that you

13     reviewed.  Do you, sir, and have you had any experience with respect to

14     listening to audio recordings?

15        A.   What do you mean, "experience"?  My own experience, do you mean,

16     in my profession, or generally speaking?

17        Q.   Yes, in your profession.

18        A.   In my profession.  In my experience, you mean.  You know, I paid

19     a lot of attention to the statements of these people, because we are

20     colleagues in one way.  I spent all my life recording in the field and

21     listening to the recordings.  I've even used the same technique.  They

22     mention Uher, and I used Uher to record thousands upon thousands of hours

23     of conversations and dialects, and I even went to the Kladanj area, where

24     some of the operators hail from.  You will find it in my CV also.

25     However, the circumstances under which I recorded were better or much

Page 24584

 1     better, my technique was always working properly and I never reused the

 2     same tapes.  I would then listen to them in my house, in peace and quiet

 3     of my home, in ideal conditions, but there are always difficulties and

 4     there's always a lack of clarity when you're listening to these tapes,

 5     and I very often asked for the second opinion of my colleagues from the

 6     same profession, when I listened to things that I didn't find clear

 7     enough, and these people really worked under very difficult conditions.

 8     They had obsolete technique, and they had to re-use the same tapes, and

 9     they worked a lot.  If you go on recording for four hours, it's very

10     tiring, and it's a job that demands concentration, and especially when

11     you listen to these tapes.  It arises from statements that they would

12     transcribe immediately after recording.  They were already very tired,

13     and I would say that their job was really very hard and their position

14     was not enviable at all.

15        Q.   From reading the statements, did you rely on those statements

16     from those various operators in formulating some of the opinions that

17     you've reflected in your report of the 18th of April, 2008?

18        A.   I don't remember having found a lot in the transcripts.  What I

19     noticed was that their language was very uniform.  I did not notice

20     anything in their language that would be uncommon for the dialect for

21     that area.  They are high school graduates.  Only one was an engineer.

22     Two had an associate degree.  They come from an area that I'm very

23     familiar with.  I don't know whether the uniformity of the languages, the

24     consequence of the fact that it was all typed by one and the same person.

25     I wouldn't know that because I don't have any information about that.

Page 24585

 1     The only explanation I found for some interrupted conversation, when it

 2     says in the transcripts "unclear," "cannot be heard," I believe that you

 3     remember what I'm talking about, you will find it in transcripts, I found

 4     an explanation, people had problems with frequencies, they very often did

 5     not have a proper electricity source, they worked with batteries, and

 6     that would the explanation for the shortcomings in the transcripts.

 7        Q.   Do you remember if, within those statements that you reviewed,

 8     the intercept operators were instructed on how they should record the

 9     purported captured conversations?

10        A.   I can't remember any instructions.  I only remember, from their

11     own words, that they were mostly Hamm operators, amateurs.  There were no

12     real professionals among them, as far as I can remember, but they had had

13     some training courses at the very beginning, when the war started, and

14     they had to pass a test, a theory and a test and a hands-on test.

15        Q.   Do you know, Professor, if they used the phonological principles

16     that you earlier described for us this afternoon?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I don't want to belabour the

19     point, but I think we're far afield of this witness's expertise as a

20     forensic linguist or just as a linguist.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  It is related, isn't it?  I mean, I quite agree

22     that it is not exactly bull's eye, but more or less it is related.

23             Yes, go ahead, go ahead.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:

25        Q.   Can you answer the question, Professor, I think?  Do you want me

Page 24586

 1     to restate it for you?

 2        A.   Please repeat the question.

 3        Q.   Did you glean from the statements that you read of the intercept

 4     operators whether or not they used phonological principles similar to

 5     those which you've described earlier for us today?

 6        A.   They're not expected to use that, because they are not competent.

 7     When you record something as a dialectologist, then we record accents and

 8     all the nuances in the phonetics and the voices.  But in their job, that

 9     was irrelevant.  Nobody asked them to do that.  They were not expected to

10     do that.  At least that's what I believe was the case.

11        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... opinions here.  We're turning

12     now, Professor, to the next section of your report, and if you'd like,

13     you're welcome to follow along, which is Roman numeral VII of your

14     report, where you talk about a general overview of Ljubisa Beara,

15     Ljubisa Beara's language usage, and the factors influencing it.  And you

16     list three things that you mentioned earlier today, and I just want a

17     clarification.  You talk about, in this report, and you referenced a

18     single-syllable reflexes of the long "jat," j-a-t.  Then you go on to

19     talk about the shorter infinitive, and then you talk about the future

20     construction of the western type of lexical details.  Those three

21     independent -- I'd like to have you -- and I know you were anxious

22     earlier to share with us specifically what the reflex of the long "jat"

23     is, but now I think it might be a good time since we're going to try to

24     go into the intercepts shortly.  What is that "jat" j-a-t, as you

25     reference it in the science of linguistics and the study of dialectology?

Page 24587

 1        A.   "Jat" is the ancient Slavic vowel which was inherited by the old

 2     Croats and Serbs in the old Serbo-Croat.  It was still a vowel, "jat."

 3     Later on, it received different reflexes.  The destiny of this cluster

 4     "jat" has arrived to distinguish between the Serbian, Croat and Bosniak

 5     linguistic areas.  There are three basic linguistic reflexes.  The long

 6     "jat" or the short "jat."  The long "jat" in Ekavian reflects as vowel

 7     "E", as in the word "dete," d-e-t-e.  In Ikavian it is "dite," d-i-t-e,

 8     and in Ijekavian it is "dijete," d-i-j-e-t-e.  The short "jat" is

 9     reflected in Ekavian as a short "E", as in "pesma," p-e-s-m-a.  In

10     Ikavian "pisma," p-i-s-m-a and in Ijekavian as "pjesma," p-j-e-s-m-a.

11     These would be the main reflexes.  There are Stokavians who use the

12     three, Ijekavian, Ikavian, and Ekavian dialects.  There are also

13     Cakavians who use the three dialects or language variants.

14             And let me not belabour the point.  There are also transitional

15     speeches, the so-called Ekavian, Ijekavian, Ikavian, Ekavian, but these

16     would be the fundamental differences or reflexes.  The biggest problem is

17     the reflex of the long "jat," which reflects into I-J-E, as in "dijete,"

18     "blijeda," "bijela."  The rule calls for two syllables, but there are

19     also speakers who use just one syllable, like in the western Stokavian

20     dialect.  For example, in the Croatian, the literal variant differs from

21     the speech variant.  For example, that's how our Mr. Beara speaks when he

22     uses the literary language.  At least that's how he spoke in April.

23             I believe that this would be enough about the reflexes of "jat."

24        Q.   I agree, I agree with that.  And if you could help me with the

25     other two sections that we talked about, and that would be the shorter

Page 24588

 1     infinitive, which I think you described a little bit, and then the future

 2     construction of the western type and the lexical details therefore.

 3     Sorry.

 4        A.   Yes.  The infinitive, such as to work, to see, to watch, and so

 5     on and so forth, in eastern areas of the former common Serbian or

 6     Croatian language, would commonly consist of longer "I" sounds, as in

 7     "raditi peci," and as you move further towards the western part of the

 8     linguistic area, you will encounter the shorter variant more and more

 9     often, such as in "radit pec" without the "I" at the end.

10             And when we talk about the future tense, there are two basic

11     models.  In the eastern part of the area, which also implies the current,

12     literally, Serbian language of the Ekavian variant, i.e., in Serbia, the

13     most common construction would be "ja cu da radim," "ja cu da dodjen"

14     [phoen].  This construction prevails over the construction with the

15     future tense proper, "ja cu raditi" or "radit cu."  And moving towards

16     the west, what dominates the linguistic area is the form "ja cu radit,"

17     where the infinitive is shorter, or "radit cu," again with the shorter

18     infinitive.  The construction with the word "da," D-A, is something that

19     you will never hear in the western-most parts of this linguistic area.

20        Q.   Thank you, and I -- if you need to go on, I never want to

21     interrupt, truly, but I think we have the essence of it.  And if

22     necessary, you just let me know and I'm sure we'll allow you to continue

23     on.

24             What I'd like to do is to during this -- in this section, Roman

25     numeral VII in your report, you talk about a linguistic cocktail, if you

Page 24589

 1     will, and you use the term "recoding" and I know that you describe

 2     Mr. Beara's language usage within this section, and I just want to have a

 3     better understanding of what you mean by "linguistic cocktail," and then

 4     ultimately the recoding, and then the opinion that you have towards the

 5     end of that section, Roman numeral VII, which is near Roman numeral VIII,

 6     on that last paragraph, and just tell us in essence what is this

 7     linguistic cocktail that you referenced?

 8        A.   As I approached the task at hand, I could observe that in a

 9     majority of the transcripts of the allegedly intercepted conversations,

10     what dominates is a correct literary language, which is not marked by any

11     variant features, and one cannot say that it would be marked according to

12     the either eastern or western variant rules.  There are no texts for

13     which you could say this is pure Ekavian or this is the eastern variant

14     of the literary language, and the other, in turn, is a pure western

15     variant.

16             Furthermore, I noticed that there are no differences, in terms of

17     dialect, that would point to the region where Mr. Beara was born.

18     Starting from the assumption that transcripts are attributed to his name,

19     I was looking for some characteristics that would point to that, that

20     would lead to such an identification.  I was faced with rather scarce

21     material, and let me just note at this point that I entered in the

22     computer, in "Conscripta Continua" [phoen], all the words attributed to

23     Mr. Beara from all the 18 transcripts, and all the 18 of them have been

24     reduced to not more than two and a half pages of computer text, of which

25     more than a half contain absolutely irrelevant words, insignificant

Page 24590

 1     words, like "yes," "hello," "okay," "I understand," "I will," "I won't,"

 2     things like that.  And then I sought the and found the starting point for

 3     my analysis in the three features or characteristics of the speech, which

 4     were "jat," the infinitive and the future tense.  I wanted to see what

 5     prevails in these three characteristic forms.

 6             And as I've already pointed out, that Beara uses words "blijeda"

 7     and "ubljedila," which are part of the Croatian literary conversational

 8     utterance that you will hear in Split among the interlocutors who used

 9     the literary language.  This would not be part of the Serbian dialect of

10     the western parts of the country.

11        Q.   And, Professor, help us with this, although we didn't give you

12     previously any audio recordings because we were under the mistaken

13     impression that none existed, and then recently we were provided with

14     some audio recordings.  And, specifically, what I'd like to direct your

15     attention to is an interview that Mr. Beara was at at the UNDU while he

16     was being questioned by an investigator from the OTP.

17             And just so the record is clear -- the question is a little long

18     because I would like the Court and all of us to be able to follow.  This

19     is an interview that occurred shortly after Mr. Beara's arrival here at

20     the Hague on the 11th of October, 2004, and it was a tape that was

21     produced to us for the first time on the 16th of July, 2008.

22             I know that's not relevant for you, but we didn't have that audio

23     recording or transcript prior to July of this year, although the

24     interview was approximately four years ago.  Were you able to, over the

25     weekend, with me and others on our team, listen to this audio transcript

Page 24591

 1     or audio recording?

 2             You don't have to have it before you.  We'll go over it a little

 3     later.  I just want to have it as a foundation.  Were you able to listen

 4     to it on Saturday or Sunday with us?

 5        A.   Yes, I listened to that.

 6        Q.   What we're going to do now, Professor, is look at the methodology

 7     that you utilised in analysing the intercepts, those 18 that you were

 8     provided.  And we'll come back to the audio recording that we just

 9     mentioned.

10             So if you turn to section Roman numeral VIII of your report, so

11     we can all follow along and if you need it, you're welcome to that.  You

12     identify specifically seven methodological approaches and issues that you

13     wanted to address in performing the analysis and in reaching the opinions

14     that you have in this case, and if you could just highlight them for us,

15     because I do have a question on a couple of them.  So what was your

16     methodological approach?

17        A.   My methodological approach was based on the assumption that there

18     had to be some traces of the dialect or the mist in which Mr. Beara had

19     grown up, which would be Sarajevo.

20        Q.   I'm sorry, Professor.  We didn't hear after you said "dragova"

21     [phoen].  The word wasn't translated for us.  You said that there are

22     some traces of the dialect and the "mist," and then we didn't get the

23     second part.  If you could just help us with that, and then you can

24     proceed.

25        A.   I expected to find traces of the dialect of Beara's youth, which

Page 24592

 1     I did not find because they were simply not there, apparently, or at

 2     least not in that very limited body of material.  There were some

 3     differential traces, but there was no possibility to discern the colour

 4     of the vowels or accent.  I could not check that because there was no

 5     opportunity for me to do that, because there was no recording that would

 6     show that.

 7             Furthermore, I also wanted to see whether, in these transcripts,

 8     Mr. Beara introduced himself personally by the first or last name, or

 9     whether any of his collocutors identified him.  Also, I put transcripts

10     in the context of the variants of the common Serbian and Croatian

11     language, which today are two different literary languages.

12             It has turned out, as you have seen, that when a literary

13     language is in question and when the differential specifics turn up, in

14     his today's speech this is mostly the western variant or today's literary

15     Croatian language.

16             Obviously, I based my conclusions, taking into account a degree

17     of relevance, on the context and the volume of the text.  And I also

18     collated the manuscripts and the versions that were subsequently typed

19     up, and I also encountered some discrepancies there.  For example, the

20     operator would first record in his hand and then type something by

21     computer, and this is important not in the cases where we have

22     manuscripts, because it is the manuscript that prevails, and the computer

23     typing is irrelevant.

24              Let me repeat, where there is no manuscript or a handwritten

25     version written by the operator, but only a printed version, and to make

Page 24593

 1     matters even worse, we don't have manuscripts in those cases where we

 2     have most of the texts, so that my conclusions would have been more

 3     firmly grounded if there were manuscripts for every conversation and if

 4     it were identical to the version that I have been provided with.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And thank you for that, and we're looking still at the

 6     methodological approach that you utilised, and we said that you

 7     highlighted seven of them here in your report on Roman numeral VIII, and

 8     then you go on to say that part of your task was indeed to identify the

 9     likelihood or the reasonableness of whether or not any of those purported

10     captured, intercepted conversations may be attributed to Mr. Beara;

11     correct?  And if you could look at the last paragraph immediately before

12     section 11, you'll find that.

13        A.   Which one, which one?

14        Q.   It's at the end of the section Roman numeral VIII, which had the

15     seven methodological factors that you utilised in giving us your

16     approach, and I said that it followed, and it's that paragraph there,

17     that last paragraph, that I was describing or trying to assist us in

18     trying to define specifically what you were tasked to do.

19             And just so the record's clear, the next section obviously should

20     be Roman numeral IX which follows Roman numeral VIII, but as printed,

21     it's identified as Roman numeral XI, so for our purposes, let's just go

22     with the Roman numeral VIII again where you identify the methodological

23     factors that you utilised in your approach, and again my question for

24     you, Professor, is that your task was to identify based on this approach

25     and the materials that you were provided to determine whether or not the

Page 24594

 1     purported intercept conversations can be attributed to Mr. Beara based on

 2     the linguistics and dialectal information that's provided to you; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Professor, in page 14 of your report, and I think it goes on to

 6     page 15.  Do you have it?

 7        A.   I can't see it.  I don't know which version you have.  What is

 8     the heading of that so-called 11th chapter?  What is the heading?

 9        Q.   Let's forget about the 11th chapter and let's deal with the 8th

10     chapter, because that's where it's contained.  Roman numeral VIII, the

11     caption is:  "Analytical Basis for Critical Study of the Manuscripts said

12     to be Connected to Ljubisa Beara," so it's Roman numeral VIII, and I

13     direct your attention, if I may --

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   -- to the last paragraph of that Roman numeral VIII.

16        A.   In my version, the chapter VIII is a critical analysis of the

17     text dated from the 13th of July to the 2nd of August, 1995.  This is in

18     my version the 8th chapter --

19        Q.   Immediately above that, sir, you have a paragraph and I think

20     it's there I won't go on.  Just immediately above that Roman numeral that

21     you've identified, does it talk about the likelihood -- that your task

22     being the likelihood to analyse the text to determine whether or not it

23     may be attributed to Mr. Beara; is that what you were asked to do?

24        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

25        Q.   Okay, thank you.

Page 24595

 1        A.   Excellent, yes.

 2        Q.   And we'll go through each of the intercepts, maybe not in the

 3     order that you have it, but I'd like to go -- so I'd like you to

 4     concentrate and follow with me.  Generally speaking, were you able to

 5     formulate an opinion as to whether or not, based upon your review of the

 6     materials, knowing the brief background of Mr. Beara, both from his

 7     childhood, his military education and military experience, as well from

 8     conducting a seven- to eight-hour visit with him, were you able to

 9     conclude whether or not any of the intercepts can or may be attributed to

10     Mr. Beara?

11        A.   I think I've already said that the language of those 18

12     transcripts, taken as a whole, in principle, the language -- today's

13     language that Mr. Beara spoke on the 7th and 8th of April, are two

14     incompatible, very different categories or matters.  So if we were to

15     depart from his conversational Cakavian-Ikavian Split speech type, which

16     he used when speaking to us those two days, then the content of those

17     transcripts must be rejected a priori, at first hand.  In those, I found

18     only one typical word from the Cakavian dialect, which would be

19     differentiating, which never was repeated, but I took as my departure

20     point the reality as well that Mr. Beara, on the 7th and 8th spoke in

21     literary language, there were parts or whole sentences spoken in literary

22     language, and on these occasions the variant used was that of the

23     Croatian literary language, a Zagreb variant of the one-time common

24     language, and then I allowed for the possibility that the transcripts, in

25     which there are several or multiple features -- characters of details of

Page 24596

 1     that variant, of that type of language, these may be connected to

 2     Mr. Beara.

 3             With respect to one transcript, I decidedly, although with not a

 4     high degree of reliability and certainty, I characterized it that it may

 5     be accepted that it may be attributed to Beara, and this is the one on

 6     the 1st of August.

 7        Q.   Thank you, and we'll get to that, actually, now.

 8             Before we do that, when we talk about your methodological

 9     approach, you also did this analysis, and I just want to direct your

10     attention, as well as my learned friends' and the Court, to table -- or

11     annex 1 of your report, which is a table that you created of those 18

12     intercepts, and you have basically four questions that you've identified

13     there, whether -- as you identified in your methodology, whether the

14     person compromised himself or revealed himself or was compromised by the

15     other speaker, and then you go on and have three other categories:  Is

16     the -- or does the dialect clearly identify the speaker's origin, is the

17     dialect tied to the person's region, and, finally, is the speaker's

18     dialect close to Ljubisa Beara's current manner of speech.  Do you have

19     that table annex 1 in front of you of your report, sir?

20        A.   I do have it.

21        Q.   So that everyone's following along -- thank you.  So that

22     everyone's following along, it is 2D551.  And in that report, sir, you

23     identified conversations that you reviewed with these four questions, now

24     just -- although you've provided us with a brief explanation of what the

25     symbols, the hyphen, the zero and the positive sign indicate, can you

Page 24597

 1     tell us exactly, so that we understand it, what do you mean when you use

 2     the symbol "O" or zero?

 3        A.   This means no data, no data.

 4        Q.   Yes.  And then the negative sign or the minus sign, if you will?

 5        A.   A negative sign denotes that he did not introduce himself.  When

 6     we say zero, this means that it doesn't refer to Beara, some other people

 7     are referred to.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And the positive or the plus sign or symbol that you

 9     utilised, what does it indicate?

10        A.   This is confirmation.  This is a response in the affirmative,

11     whether he was revealed or -- himself or by somebody else.

12        Q.   Thank you, Professor, but really those symbols that you use, the

13     negative, the positive, as well as the zero symbols, you use that for

14     four independent questions that you provide in your table, so it isn't

15     just whether Mr. Beara compromised or revealed his identity, or whether

16     another person purportedly speaking with him compromised his identity.

17     You used those symbols for all four categories, including the fourth

18     category which is whether, essentially, the speaker's dialect was close

19     or consistent with Ljubisa Beara's current speech pattern or manner of

20     speech; correct?

21        A.   I use those symbols on the basis of the general image, the

22     general impression.  When I took into account all the elements that were

23     available to me, when they were tangible to me to be analysed.  This is a

24     synthesis.

25        Q.   Thank you.  That's all I'm trying as well as to try to synthesize

Page 24598

 1     as briefly as possible.

 2             And now you were just mentioning to us that with respect to the

 3     August 1st, 1995, intercept, although you didn't mention the time, we can

 4     look at this table and we see within those four categories that you

 5     actually have a positive or plus sign, and the time of this intercept is

 6     exactly --

 7        A.   Early morning, yes.  That's 10.02 in the morning.

 8        Q.   Take a look at your table.  Do you have your table, by -- and

 9     look on the left column, where it says "1 August, 10002."  Do you see

10     that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And if we draw across this column and we see that you have four

13     positive symbols, and you've answered "positive" or "yes" to the four

14     questions that you identify in the top section of this table, which is

15     essentially your brief overview and analysis of the results of the

16     intercepts that you reviewed; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, let's turn to the 1st of August, 1002 intercept analysis

19     that you conducted, and you'll find that in your next section of your

20     report, and why don't we start there.

21        A.   I've found it, yes.

22        Q.   You're way quicker than I am, and I appreciate that.

23             Now, within this intercept, can you identify for us -- and so

24     that the Court will have it, we ask that it be brought up in e-court; and

25     it's specifically P1378B for the B/C/S and P1378A for the English

Page 24599

 1     version.

 2             And, sir, you have that, and you should hopefully have that in

 3     front of you as well.  I know you have the analysis in front of you.  I

 4     don't know if you need the actual transcript that was provided in

 5     connection with this purported intercept.  Can you share with us what

 6     your conclusion is in connection with this August 1st, 1995 intercept at

 7     1002 hundred hours?

 8        A.   As per the allegations of the operator, Mr. Beara introduced

 9     himself:  "Hello, good day, Ljubisa Beara speaking."  This was done by

10     his collocutor.  He mentioned his name.  The linguistic corpus or the

11     body of the language is not very rich, but it does not collide or it's

12     not very opposite in terms of the identification stated there.

13        Q.   Just so that we could follow along, Professor Remetic, and I

14     promise I'm not interrupting you to shorten your testimony, and if we

15     could just turn to the second page of the English version where I think

16     the professor is focusing on Mr. Beara identifying himself, just so we

17     could all follow along, if the Court doesn't mind.

18             Go ahead, please, Professor.

19        A.   Yes.  This text, the same as others, does not contain variants

20     where literary language would be marked by a variant.  There are details,

21     features, characteristics of the western variant or the Croatian literary

22     language, but there are also those which resemble the eastern variant.  I

23     opted to give precedence to those which carry more weight, and therefore

24     I attributed more importance to the examples of the western variant.  For

25     me, "izvjestio" with an I-G-E, "to report" --

Page 24600

 1        Q.   Where are you finding that in the transcript?

 2        A.   In the transcript?  In the manuscript.

 3        Q.   Go ahead, proceed, please.

 4        A.   So "izvjestio," "report," then the truncated form of the

 5     infinitive, like in "pozvat," "to call," or "dogovorit," "to arrange,"

 6     but also "naci," "to find," there is an elongated -- a full version of

 7     the infinitive.  In the transcripts, what is often found is the noun

 8     "burazer" or "brother," which is not limited in terms of linguistic

 9     variance but is more frequent in the west than it is in the east.  And

10     here what is used is the shorter version, "buraz," which is more often

11     found in the west.

12        Q.   And we're trying to follow along, and I know this is like a

13     two-part conversation, and I think if we look, it's the fourth line of

14     the conversation that introduces Mr. Beara, correct, where you're

15     speaking now of the "buraz," which is the short form of "burazer"; am I

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   And now please continue with your analysis of this intercept.

19        A.   Here, there are infinitives following the western variant, such

20     as "Hoces li biti u firmi," which means "will you be at the company," and

21     next to a construction which is typical of the eastern variant, "ja cu da

22     dodjem," the eastern variant of the future tense formation.

23             Let me explain my conclusions.  I allowed for the possibility,

24     and my conscience is telling me to allow for this possibility, that this

25     could be Beara speaking, that this could be Beara's speech type, because

Page 24601

 1     even today he would say "izvjestio" with an I-G-E, or also say

 2     "izvjestija," as in the Ikavian.  Then he would say "pozvat" [phoen], and

 3     I heard him speak, "buraz" as well.

 4        Q.   And that's why, Professor, you identified in your table the four

 5     questions as all being positive; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, I have.

 7        Q.   Fair enough.  Just in the interests of time, and I know that

 8     you've spent an inordinate amount of time analysing these intercepts, and

 9     we all are grateful for that, but we do have to move on a little bit.  If

10     there's something however that you feel is necessary to add, I will allow

11     you and I'm sure the court will insist that you provide us with that

12     further analysis or discussion.

13             What I want to do is to look at the next intercept which was also

14     dated the 1st of August, and we have two times recorded in your table of

15     2245 and 2308, and that is the -- I'm sorry, I may have misspoken.  The

16     next one we want is 65 ter P1395, which is an intercept that is -- no,

17     let's go with the one -- I'm sorry again, I apologise.  I lost my spot,

18     and I apologise to the Court.

19             We need Exhibit P1380, please, and that is the intercept from the

20     1st of August, 1995, at 2245.  Again, I think the witness is just asking

21     for clarification.  I'll just restate it, I think, for his benefit.

22             Professor, if you look at your table --

23        A.   Yes, I've got it.  Everything's in order.

24        Q.   Great.  And then we'll get that up on the screen.  You've also

25     analysed and reviewed this intercept of 2245.  You include within it

Page 24602

 1     another section which is identified as -- by the time 2308.  Can you tell

 2     me, why is that?

 3             Maybe I can help, because I don't think it's a big secret.  That

 4     intercept actually is contained in two pages, which is P1380B, and the

 5     second page of that intercept has another intercept below it which

 6     designates the time as 2308.  The beginning of this P1380B has the time

 7     as you've identified it as 2245.  So it's really two pages, and I think

 8     that's -- or tell us why you included both those times there.  And you

 9     treated it as one, I believe.

10        A.   Yes, I treated those as a single conversation.  It continues, as

11     you can see.  There is quite a lengthy conversation, the first one, and

12     then there is a very short intervening time, and there were other

13     circumstances which connect them.  This is a long text, two relatively

14     long texts for which there are no manuscripts.  There is nothing written

15     in handwriting by the operator.  I did not receive it, anyway, or at any

16     rate.

17        Q.   That's true also for the prior intercept, the 1st of August at

18     1002 hundred hours, is it not?

19        A.   At 10.00, I believe this holds for that as well.  There's no

20     manuscript for that either.

21        Q.   And just so we're clear --

22        A.   The 1st of August is without manuscripts.

23        Q.   When you say "manuscript," you're saying there's no handwritten

24     capturing of the conversation --

25        A.   "Manuscript" is something written in longhand, the operator's

Page 24603

 1     handwritten version, or whoever wrote those things down.

 2        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  Now, focusing back on this

 3     second intercept that we're looking at of the 1st of August at 2245 and

 4     2308, tell us what your analysis found in connection with this intercept.

 5        A.   You see, the language of these conversations is incompatible with

 6     the language of the morning conversation from 1002.

 7        Q.   I don't know if I understand you, but let me try to say this:

 8     Are you saying that the conversations are incompatible because it cannot

 9     be the same person?  If we assume that the conversation at 1002 is

10     Mr. Beara, it certainly cannot be Mr. Beara at 2245 and 2308?  Is that

11     what you --

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I object, and that is completely leading.  I

14     think there's a much more reasonable way to ask.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  It couldn't be more leading than that actually,

16     Mr. Ostojic.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.

18        Q.   What do you mean when you say "incompatible," sir?

19        A.   That means something which cannot be connected, something

20     completely different, something opposite.  In the texts, allegedly

21     recorded conversations in the evening, we have domination of Ekavian

22     variant.  We have Ekavian speech, like "mesto," "odseku," "covek;" only

23     two forms in the Ijekavian, like "razumijem" and "dvije."  Mr. Beara

24     speaks only "razumim," and this is the word he used in the conversation

25     with the Prosecutor in October, and this is what we are going to see

Page 24604

 1     further on.

 2             Furthermore, I tried to explain away these Ekavian occurrences by

 3     possible adaptations to the manner of -- the manner of speech of the

 4     collocutor.  However, his collocutor uses more Ijekavian words than

 5     Ekavian.

 6             Furthermore, we have a truncated infinitive together with Ekavian

 7     forms, which is illogical.

 8        Q.   And which we didn't see in the prior intercept, or have we seen

 9     it in the prior intercept of 1002 in the morning?

10        A.   I beg your pardon?

11        Q.   Did we find that in the prior intercept or not?

12        A.   There was not so much Ekavian in there.  Please, this is Ekavian.

13     Here, there are 15 Ekavian words that are written down, printed; not in

14     the manuscript, though, mind you.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic, I think we need 25 minutes to be able

16     to digest all this.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Twenty-five minutes' break.

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 6.23 p.m.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

22             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Mr. Remetic, if I may ask you, are you okay to proceed?  I know

24     it's been long and you've done a lot of talking and testifying here

25     today.  Are you physically okay and can we proceed for another 40 or so

Page 24605

 1     minutes?

 2        A.   The break was long enough.  As far as I am concerned, we can go

 3     on until midnight.

 4        Q.   Great, thank you.  I don't think it will be necessary, however.

 5             Sir, we were discussing the 2nd of August intercept at

 6     specifically the 2245 and 2308 hundred hours, and looking at your table,

 7     I note that you have, obviously, minus or negative signs on the four

 8     columns which you used to analyse the transcripts, and I recognise also

 9     you told us that for this intercept, among others, such as the 1st of

10     August at 1002, there was no manuscript.  With respect to this specific

11     intercept that we're looking at, the 1st of August, 2245 and 2308, were

12     you able to reach a conclusion or an opinion, based upon a reasonable

13     degree of certainty, as to whether or not these intercepts may be

14     attributed to Mr. Beara?

15        A.   According to my experience in my profession, and the familiarity

16     with the circumstances in the Serbian and Croatian linguistic area, one

17     person cannot utter, within one day or within 13 or so hours, the

18     speeches that differ to such an extent.

19        Q.   Okay.  And I know --

20        A.   The language on the 1st of August, in these three -- or, rather,

21     two conversations, is a mixture which cannot be put together in any

22     natural way.  The afternoon conversation cannot be, in my opinion, linked

23     with the name of Ljubisa Beara.

24        Q.   Okay.  And let me focus, if I may, on the use of the first column

25     that you had, which says whether there was a compromise of the identity

Page 24606

 1     by either the speaker or the person with whom he was speaking to, and you

 2     have a negative sign in that section.

 3             If we look at the body of the text, which is again, just for the

 4     record, P1380B, the B/C/S version, and the English version would be

 5     P1380A, we note that in the body of the text there, I think according to

 6     your table, there is no reference to anyone identifying or compromising

 7     the identity of an individual such as Mr. Beara.  However, in the

 8     beginning part of that text, in the introduction part, which doesn't

 9     capture the conversation, someone identifies him as Mr. Beara.  Do you

10     know how that is?

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Also speculation, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think it's a reasonable question, given the

15     evidence that's been presented.  It's certainly factual specifically as

16     to what I said, and if he can deduct -- and it really goes more to his

17     table, why he didn't put a plus or a zero as opposed to a negative there.

18     So I'm really leading him or trying to obtain --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, but is the professor the ideal person to

20     answer that question?

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  Not the ideal person, obviously.  If you'd like,

22     I can move on to --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  How can he explain what -- whoever jotted that down

24     that in mind.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

Page 24607

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move on.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:

 3        Q.   Professor, in looking at this, did you find more instances where,

 4     in the body of the text of an intercept, references were made to the name

 5     "Ljubo" or the word "Ljubo," or a derivative of that word, and did you

 6     find as to whether or not the Prosecution has taken a position that it's

 7     an unknown individual?  In other intercepts that you may have reviewed,

 8     did you see that anywhere?

 9        A.   I'm not sure that I understand your question.  Are we talking

10     about this person Stevo here who uses the word "Ljubo," and nobody

11     introduces themselves as Ljubo Beara?  That's what you can find in my

12     table, nobody introduces themselves as Ljubo Beara.  And "Ljubo" can

13     refer to a host of names, a host of people, if you just used a "Ljubo."

14        Q.   Okay.  We'll get to that a little later, hopefully.  Let's look

15     at the next intercept which is P1395, and we have the intercept of the

16     2nd of August at 1300 hours.  And I'd like to just highlight a couple of

17     things in this intercept, and if I'm allowed, it would be P1305D, as in

18     "dog" for the record, and then it would be P1395C in the English version,

19     and then D would have been the manuscript handwritten version and P1395D

20     is the typed manuscript.  And then we have another one related to that,

21     which was I think the translation of the manuscript, which is P1395F, as

22     in "Frank," just so the Court has the full complete set of this

23     intercept.

24             So, sir, I'm directing your attention to the 2nd of August 19995

25     at 1300 hours, which is a collection of an intercept, and did you have an

Page 24608

 1     opportunity to review this intercept as well?  I think it's the very next

 2     one in your table, so second from the bottom.

 3        A.   If we are talking about the conversation which took place on the

 4     2nd of August at 1300 hours, this conversation was practically irrelevant

 5     for my job, because there's no text, there are no words in there which

 6     may be linked with the name of Mr. Beara.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   Just one more thing, please, please.  But the text is important

 9     for another reason or another fact.  The person who typed it on the

10     computer, the typist, obviously did not make a distinction between the

11     reflexes found in the Jekavian and Ijekavian of the "jat" cluster.  When

12     he copied the text from the manuscript, which in my view was correct, he

13     copied the features "izvjestaj" [phoen] or "report," "covjeca" [phoen] or

14     "man," and typed them in a way that nobody, as far as I know, would

15     actually use them in speech.  His copy reads "izvjestaj" and "cavijece"

16     [phoen].

17        Q.   Professor, let me catch up with you, and the rest of us.  And

18     I think the record noted on page 65 that it was P1905 that we were

19     calling up, but it's actually P1395 and the collection therefrom.  And

20     I'd like if we could have on the screen the "D", which is the written

21     manuscript, again P1395D, and then immediately thereafter we're going to

22     go to the typed script, which is P1395B.

23             And just show us where that word appears, Professor, if you don't

24     mind, at this August 2nd, 1995, 1300 hour intercept.

25             And if possible, Mr. President, would the usher be able to

Page 24609

 1     provide him with a pen, and then maybe he can highlight it or underline

 2     it for us, or circle it.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Usher.

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  Well, Professor, they have a special pen.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 6             Shall I put circles around things or shall I underline them?

 7     What do you want me to do?  "Izvjestija" [phoen] here --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:

10        Q.   Professor, I think what we need on the left-hand side of the

11     screen so you can see it --

12        A.   In the manuscript, it is transcribed correctly.  The way the word

13     is spelled in the manuscript is good.  I'm just looking now for the word

14     "covjeca" or "man."

15        Q.   Hold on, please, Professor.  Professor, that is on the next page,

16     but I will turn to the next page when I am done looking at this.  Right

17     now, I would like us to have the typed B/C/S version of this handwritten

18     manuscript, which I have with the ERN number 0108-5009, which again my

19     understanding is P1395B, as in "boy," so that we could then circle it

20     also in the typed version and then get a better appreciation for that

21     which is what you're trying to convey to us here.  Thank you for your

22     patience.

23        A.   Where is the typed version, please?

24        Q.   They're trying to get it for us now.

25             We can possibly, because it's just one word, have him just

Page 24610

 1     recircle it, if we have both up, whichever the Court's pleasure is.  I

 2     had noticed that the left side was the English version, but we need the

 3     typewritten B/C/S and then the handwritten B/C/S.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but I think we need to save it in any case.

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  They'll bring it up, Professor, in a couple of

 6     seconds.  Just be patient.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll bear with you as long as it

 8     takes.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Now, if we can just scroll it down --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is, I found it.

11             MR. OSTOJIC:  If we can scroll down a little, and at the bottom

12     of that -- there we are.

13        Q.   And, sir, can you also circle the word which is the typed version

14     of the same word that you circled in the handwritten version, please?

15        A.   [Marks].  I have.

16        Q.   So that we can better have an appreciation --

17        A.   And "covijece" [phoen] is a bit further down.

18        Q.   It's actually on the next page of both the manuscript and the

19     typed text, but let's stay with this for a second.

20             You noted that this word from the manuscript handwritten text was

21     typed differently than that which it appeared on the typewritten text; is

22     that what you're trying to share with us?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And is that why --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24611

 1        Q.   Okay.  Please go ahead.

 2        A.   Of course, yes, please.  In the manuscript, in the handwritten

 3     version, everything is okay, both "covijece" and "izvjestija."  In the

 4     typed version, we  find a hyper Ijekavian version.  It has been copied

 5     erroneously, and in my view this is a serious mistake because it throws a

 6     different light on the text where there is no manuscript, where

 7     manuscripts are missing, where there's only a typed version, thus

 8     unabling [as interpreted] us to check the credibility --

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   -- of the both texts.

11        Q.   And now, with the Court's permission, if we could turn to the

12     second page of both documents, and again if -- first we should probably

13     save the circled typed version, with the Court's permission.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's been suggested to us that for practical

15     reasons, your witness should also circle the relative word in the --

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  I agree, yes.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you could direct him to do that, please.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Professor, if you could once again circle the word that we're

21     discussing here on the handwritten manuscript which then corresponds or

22     correlates with the typewritten one on the left of the screen.  So can

23     you do that for us, please, again?  In the handwritten text, if you could

24     circle the word we were just discussing.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 24612

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm sorry to

 2     interrupt.  I noticed in the transcript that the witness had indicated

 3     that the difference between the transcription and the handwriting changes

 4     the meaning, and it was unclear to me whether he meant to refer to the

 5     meaning of the word or the meaning of the word in terms of its ability

 6     to -- linguistically, in order to identify a person, and I wonder if my

 7     good friend could clarify that, please.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. --

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  As soon as we get there, I will most certainly do

10     that.

11        Q.   Professor, can you circle the word again, "izvjestaj" in the

12     handwritten portion?  Can you take the pen and circle again in the

13     handwritten text where that word appears?

14        A.   [Marks].

15        Q.   Excellent.  Now, sir, when you look at these two words, and

16     I think in the record it may have reflected, as my learned friend said,

17     that it changes or alters the meaning of the word, can you just again

18     describe for us what effect, in your opinion, professionally speaking,

19     does the difference in adding an "I" on the typed text, versus the

20     handwritten text, which doesn't have an "I", does it change the meaning

21     of the word or does it to you, as a linguistics expert and professor of

22     dialectology, does it indicate for you any specific characteristics?

23        A.   The focus here is on the issue of the reliability or the lack

24     thereof of these people who actually typed these texts.  These two forms

25     indicate that they were not reliable, that they were not enclitic enough,

Page 24613

 1     and this shows that there may be mistakes in the other texts as well, but

 2     these cannot be collated against manuscripts.  When it comes to the

 3     semantics, the words "lepo" and "lijepo" do not differ in semantic terms,

 4     they mean the same, but they are used in different areas, in different

 5     parts.

 6        Q.   From that, you can detect which region or area someone is from,

 7     correct, or at least reasonably conclude that?

 8        A.   On the basis of the "jat"s reflexes, reflections, you can guess

 9     where a person comes from, but in this case they wrote down the form of

10     the word that nobody speaks anywhere, the "izvjestaj" and "covijece."

11     We haven't registered such forms, which testifies to the degree of the

12     reliability of the typists.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And just so we have a complete record with respect to

14     this intercept, if we can please save this, and we'll identify it

15     accordingly tonight and tomorrow, and then I would ask that we go to the

16     second page of both documents, with the Court's permission, if we can

17     save this.

18             Now, Professor, in front of you, you should have the second page

19     of this intercept of the 2nd of August at 1300 hours, and can you go

20     through the same exercise, with the assistance of the usher, and circle

21     the word which you were focusing on and that which you referred to in

22     your report where there was a change from what was written, in your view,

23     linguistically and dialectically having an impact?  And I think the word

24     is "covijece," as you earlier referenced, and now we can find it and if

25     you could be kind enough to circle it both on the handwritten and the

Page 24614

 1     typed texts.

 2             You're going to have to use a special --

 3        A.   The word "covijece" in the manuscript, here it is, "covijece" or

 4     "man" [marks].  This text is not here.

 5        Q.   If you look at the fourth line --

 6        A.   Here it is, here it is, here it is.  Okay.  [Marks].

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  And now if we can also save this,

 8     Mr. President.

 9        Q.   And, again, with respect to this word, you also find that this --

10     what's the significance of the difference in the handwritten versus the

11     typed text?  How is that significant to you in your analysis and the

12     opinions that you're providing?

13        A.   In my opinion, those mistakes undermine the authority, they

14     compromise the authority of the typists, so we must be cautious when we

15     read the manuscripts or texts which do not exist in the longhand version.

16     I'm not sure to which degree these texts are reliable.  This is a corpus

17     delicti.

18        Q.   Thank you, Professor, and we only have ten or so minutes left,

19     and I want to ask you -- there's another intercept there, and we'll go

20     through that exercise hopefully today or tomorrow.

21             What I want to know now, looking at your table, I note there are

22     certain entries with the time periods of the intercepts.  Are you able to

23     conclude as to looking at your positive signs, from the 16th of July,

24     namely at 1111 hours, all the way through to the 1st of August at 1002,

25     can you tell us as to whether or not there were any intercepts that were

Page 24615

 1     captured that purport to be attributed to Mr. Beara during the time

 2     period, again, from the 16th of July through the 1st of August at 1002

 3     hundred hours?

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             The question is vague as to what intercepts my colleague is

 7     talking about, whether these are intercepts he reviewed, or intercepts he

 8     was provided with, or intercepts in general.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  Well, obviously the intercepts that he reviewed.

11     If there are other intercepts, we'd be more than happy to have them, but

12     we don't have any others in our possession in connection with anything

13     purportedly attributing to Mr. Beara for that time period.

14        Q.   Sir, can you help us with that?  Did you find, of the intercepts

15     that you reviewed, any intercepts that purport or can be attributed to

16     Mr. Beara from the time period of the 16th of July through the 1st of

17     August?  And I just note, if we look at your table, you obviously have a

18     positive sign on the 16th of July and you have a positive sign on the 1st

19     of August, so my question is:  For that two or so-week period, did you

20     find any evidence of any such intercepts that would be attributed to

21     Mr. Beara?

22        A.   No, no, I haven't found any.

23        Q.   Within that time period, though, we see two other intercepts;

24     specifically, the 23rd of July, 1995, at 0805 hours, and I think it's

25     65 ter 1310.  Now, in that intercept, although it was given to you as a

Page 24616

 1     collection of references or possibly intercepts that bear the name of

 2     Beara or the name Ljubo, I'd like to focus, in the brief time that we

 3     have, specifically on this intercept the 23rd of July, 0805 hours, and

 4     again the 65 ter number is 1310.  And just see we have a clean --

 5        A.   20 --

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

 7        A.   Which date, please?

 8        Q.   23.  And just so the record is clear, Mr. President, we're going

 9     to call up P1310B, as in "boy," which is the B/C/S version, and I think

10     also P1310C, which I believe may be the typed version, and the English

11     version is P1310A.  So we would only need the "B" and the "A" version of

12     the intercept on the screen for these limited questions.

13             You let me know, Professor, when you've found it.

14        A.   I've found it.

15        Q.   Now, with respect to this intercepts, we have a few minutes left,

16     with respect to this intercept, you have identified in your report

17     circles or the zero symbol in the four sections in the questions that you

18     raised.  Now, did we -- and it says in your report, but you reviewed also

19     the Prosecution's position, just again so that they have it, from the 1st

20     of May, 2007, as to who the Ljubo in this intercept is, but I'm asking

21     you:  Were you advised as to who the Ljubo was in the intercept that

22     purports to be the 23rd of July, 1995, at 0805 hours?

23        A.   Please, much earlier I had prepared an analysis, and in my report

24     it is stated that it is unclear which Ljubo is being referred to.  There

25     are no indications pointing to Mr. Ljubisa Beara.

Page 24617

 1        Q.   And I --

 2        A.   And, anyway, the Prosecution -- the Prosecution means -- think

 3     that this refers to Major Ljubo Bojanovic, so this has nothing to do with

 4     Beara.

 5        Q.   The Court has that filing from the 1st of May, 2007, and if they

 6     look plainly on page 73, they'll find the intercept and they'll find the

 7     OTP's position that it's Ljubo Bojanovic, so I just want to clarify that,

 8     because we're talking about the period from the 16th of July to August

 9     1st.

10             Similarly, in the three minutes that we have left, let's take a

11     look at the next intercept which is dated the 25th of July, which is at

12     0709 hours, which for all of us following it would be P1328B, as in

13     "boy," and P1328A, as in "apple."

14             Can we go to that next intercept, Professor, of the 25th of July

15     at 0709 hours?

16        A.   Here, too, it is unclear which Ljubo is being referred to.  This

17     material is extremely meager.  There are several soldierly, terse

18     questions and answers, greetings like "hello," "excellent," "okay,"

19     "well," "very well."  Two times "gide" [phoen] occurs, which contrasts

20     today's Beara's manner of speech, and, anyway, the Prosecution,

21     concurring with me, thinks that it is not clear which Ljubo is being

22     referred to.  Not even the Prosecutors think that.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's stop there for today.  We will

24     proceed with your testimony tomorrow, Professor.  Have a good rest, and

25     we'll reconvene tomorrow at 9.00.

Page 24618

 1             Thank you.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

 3                   to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of August, 2008,

 4                           at 9.00 a.m.