Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24785

 1                           Thursday, 28 August 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Good morning, everybody.  All the

11     accused are here.  Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Mitchell.  Defence,

12     I only notice the absence of Mr. Haynes.

13             Yes, good morning to you, madam.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President, just a few more

17     questions.  Thank you.

18                           WITNESS:  SVETLANA GAVRILOVIC [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

21        Q.   Good morning, Mrs. Gavrilovic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   Just a few more questions and I'll be through.  I just want to

24     ask you a little bit about after you spoke the first time, I think you

25     said you thought it was either in March or April to the investigator for

Page 24786

 1     Mr. Beara, was it Mr. Stanic, was that the name?

 2        A.   Yes, it was.  Yes, Mr. Stanic.

 3        Q.   So, after he left, what did you say to Mira Cekic about the

 4     subject matter that you discussed with Mr. Stanic?

 5        A.   I told her that he had asked me if I remembered the 14th of July

 6     1995, and that that was the evening when she invited me, or rather,

 7     called me by phone, told me that Ljubisa and Nada will be at their place

 8     that evening, and asked me if my husband and I wanted to see them.  And I

 9     was supposed to remember what we talked about that evening.

10        Q.   Okay.  And how long after Mr. Stanic left did you --

11        A.   It's okay.

12        Q.   Okay.  And how long after you spoke to Mr. Stanic that day did

13     you speak to Mira about this?

14        A.   The very next day I called her because I couldn't find her that

15     evening.  I called her the following day.  After that that Mr. Stanic

16     came to see me, and asked me if I wanted to give my account of what

17     happened on that day, so during the morning on the following day.

18        Q.   Okay.  And, so, then you told Mira your best recollections about

19     that birth day and everything you remembered, I take it?

20        A.   Well, you know, there was no need for that; she was there, too.

21     It was in their home; although, she wasn't there the whole time because

22     she was the hostess and she would go to and fro to the kitchen to bring

23     out the food et cetera.  Basically, she knew what we were talking about.

24        Q.   But as you told me before, you said "I told her that he had asked

25     me if I remembered the 14th of July 1995, that that was the evening when

Page 24787

 1     she invited me, or rather, that called me by phone, told me that Ljubisa

 2     and Nada will be at their place that evening, and asked me if my husband

 3     and I wanted to see them.  And I was supposed to remember what we had

 4     talked about."  So you went over all that with her?

 5        A.   Well, basically, yes.  But it wasn't so necessary because we were

 6     all together at that place that evening.

 7        Q.   But this had been a long time ago, and by talking with Mira, you

 8     were able to help her remember it, too, I take it?

 9        A.   No.  She did remember because Toma, her husband, was making jokes

10     about our failed trip on the Orient Express, by saying that there was a

11     newly opened restaurant in our city named the Orient Express and it's

12     decorated in the same way, and he told us to go there and imagine that we

13     were on the trip.  So she clearly remembered that joke of his.  So she

14     remembered that.

15        Q.   Sure.  Okay.  And when did you see her in person after that, that

16     phone conversation that you talked about right after you talked to

17     Mr. Stanic?

18        A.   I cannot tell you exactly, maybe two weeks after that or three

19     weeks after that.  We are not seeing each other on a daily basis.  We

20     just meet occasionally.

21        Q.   So, as you sit here, you can't really remember whether it was --

22     you know, when you actually met with her to see her face to face?  Can

23     you roughly give me an -- is that right?

24        A.   You mean what was the occasion for the two of us to get together,

25     is that what you are referring to?

Page 24788

 1        Q.   No.  I'm just trying to get an idea of when it was you met with

 2     her face to face?

 3        A.   After my conversation with Mr. Stanic.

 4        Q.   About how long?

 5        A.   Well, as I said, I would say some two weeks later.

 6        Q.   And where was it?

 7        A.   At my place.  She dropped by because, as I told you, I'm in the

 8     cosmetics business.  She had some problems with her face, she came to me

 9     to -- for some treatment, and that is when we met.

10        Q.   So I get this picture in my head, and maybe I've seen too many

11     movies, in the beauty parlour, with you working on her, and you are

12     talking to her about everything, right, something like that?  Is that

13     right or is that just --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  And then you discussed the matter with her at that time?

16        A.   Yes.  I talked to my clients about various things, and the same

17     applies to you.  We talk about our families, about the problems that I'm

18     having with my son who is at the university and is not doing very well.

19     We also mentioned Nada, and we said that we were sorry that everything

20     happened to them in the way that it did, that they were good people, so

21     on so forth.

22        Q.   So you did talk about Nada Beara's husband and his problems, and

23     the things that you've been talking about today and yesterday, with Mira?

24        A.   We mostly talked about Nada and their children; that is to say,

25     the people who remained in our city.  We used to go and visit them.  So

Page 24789

 1     we basically talked about Nada and her personal problems.

 2        Q.   That I don't want to, of course, get into.  I'm just interested

 3     in the party back in 1995 and the subject matter that Mr. Stanic talked

 4     to you about.  You've told us you talked to Nada about that, too, at the

 5     beauty parlour, I take it?

 6        A.   You mean Mira?

 7        Q.   I am sorry.

 8        A.   Yes.  We discussed it and we were wondering whether we would have

 9     to go to The Hague to talk about it, so that was the essence of it,

10     whether that would be a pleasant or an unpleasant experience for us and

11     that if we must do it, we will do so and to tell what we know and what

12     the truth is.

13        Q.   So you must know that Mira is here as well; right?

14        A.   Yes, yes, of course.

15        Q.   So you have had a chance to talk again with Mira before you both

16     came to The Hague about the topic that Mr. Stanic talked to you about?

17        A.   Yes.  But there was no reason for that because what I'm telling

18     you now is really the truth and what is she going to tell you will also

19     be the truth, and if we discussed anything that was only the truth about

20     what had happened.

21        Q.   Sure, it's normal for witnesses that got to come to this place to

22     talk about, you know, what they are going to say with each other,

23     especially if it's the same topic.  That's normal.  I'm just asking you

24     when was it before coming to The Hague.  The last time before you came to

25     The Hague, did you talk to Mira in Belgrade about this topic that you

Page 24790

 1     discussed with Mr. Stanic?

 2        A.   Well, we talked about this -- well, not about the topic itself.

 3     We rather talked about how we have to travel, how shall we prepare

 4     ourselves.  As I say, there was no need because we were at her place.

 5     Everything happened at her place.

 6        Q.   You didn't talk about the party at all with her before you

 7     came -- right before you came to Belgrade -- sorry, right before you came

 8     to The Hague from Belgrade?

 9        A.   Believe me, we didn't.

10        Q.   But where did you speak to her about your trip to The Hague, was

11     it your place, her place, over the phone?

12        A.   We talked on the phone before the departure.

13        Q.   What day?

14        A.   We arrived here on the 24th, so about two days before that.  I

15     should say, the 21st or the 22nd, I'm not quite sure.  But we just

16     discussed what clothes we should bring, whether it was cold there or

17     warm, and things like that.

18        Q.   Okay.  And I got a bit ahead of myself, but I want to ask you the

19     same sorts of questions about Nada Beara.  So, after Mr. Stanic spoke to

20     you back in what you say is March or April for the first time, did you

21     contact Nada Beara after that?

22        A.   No, not on this issue.

23        Q.   When was the first time after Mr. Stanic talked to you that you

24     had spoken to Nada about this issue, the birthday party?

25        A.   I never discussed the birthday party with Nada.  Nada had found

Page 24791

 1     out that I was going to The Hague to testify perhaps some five days

 2     before our departure.  We didn't want to bother her.  She had enough

 3     stress and enough problem because she would probably be very worried

 4     about why we have to go through this unpleasantness of appearing before

 5     this court and things like that.  So we didn't really want to cause

 6     anxiety for her.  She actually didn't know that I was summoned as a

 7     witness here.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So you've never talked to Nada about the birthday party at

 9     all?

10        A.   Never, never.

11        Q.   So your experience hasn't been too bad here, has it?

12        A.   It hasn't.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much for coming.  Mr. President, I

14     have no further questions.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you Mr. McCloskey.  Is there re-examination

17     Mr. Nikolic.

18             MR. NIKOLIC: [No interpretation]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  He said -- Mr. Nikolic answered in the negative.

21             So Madam Gavrilovic, as I promised to you yesterday, we have

22     concluded with your testimony.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to

23     thank you for having come over to give testimony in this trial, and I

24     also wish you on behalf of everyone a safe journey back home.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 24792

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  I would imagine there are no documents to tender?

 3             MR. NIKOLIC:  [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour, no.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing from the Prosecution, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  That concludes the testimony of Madam Gavrilovic.

 7     We had -- we were told before we started the sitting, Mr. Ostojic, that

 8     you wished to address the Chamber soon after the conclusion of this

 9     witness's testimony.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Thank

11     you very much.  Two just rather brief housekeeping matters.  One is

12     yesterday, when we tendered the Exhibits 2DIC, 210, 211, and 212, these

13     documents were previously identified and entered into evidence under

14     seal.  So we would just ask the Court that those documents that bear the

15     number 2DIC, 210, 211, 212 also be placed under seal, because I think the

16     name is reflected for some of the intercept operators.  Okay.  That would

17     be the first item.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  That will be done.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  The seconds item:  We met or I met with the

20     Prosecution last night to discuss scheduling and whatnot, and we'd like

21     to have the Court's understanding on a couple of issues.  We do have

22     witnesses here, we are ready to proceed until tomorrow, we are just not

23     sure how long the witnesses will take.  We may have a witness.  And after

24     I spoke with the Prosecution, we thought we had a deal and an

25     understanding; and when I got back home, I called some of the witnesses.

Page 24793

 1             I'm going to have to restructure some of the witness schedule for

 2     next week.  The Prosecution also made a request of us for one witness

 3     later in the week next week to schedule him for the 8th of September,

 4     which is the following Monday, because an outside counsel will attempt to

 5     be present either via videolink or telephone.  We are going to

 6     accommodate that request for many different reasons including personal

 7     reasons, but we just have to rework the schedule a little bit.

 8             So today I'm confident that we can proceed with Mr. Alaica,

 9     Mrs. Cekic, and Mr. Milan Kerkez, and that would be it for today, if we

10     get through all three.  And tomorrow we are still working on it because I

11     have to meet with my expert, who was scheduled for tomorrow, to see if we

12     should proceed with him.  Although I indicated to my learned friends that

13     we were going to proceed with Mr. Subotic tomorrow, Mr. Professor

14     Wagenaar would like to proceed tomorrow.

15             So I have to get back to you specifically on what the order is

16     after these final three witnesses today and tomorrow, so just so that the

17     Court is aware of it and my learned friend.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We'll await further information from

19     you.  In the meantime, there are a few housekeeping matters and issues

20     that we would like to raise ourselves.  One is the following:

21     Mr. Ostojic, way back on the 1st of July, you had filed a motion for

22     witness Osman.

23             Dizdarevic to be heard by video conference link.  There was some

24     oral argument on this on the following day, on the 2nd July; then,

25     subsequently, we noticed that on the 17th of July, you filed a fresh 65

Page 24794

 1     ter witness list in which it seemed that Dizdarevic was being withdrawn

 2     as a witness.  If you confirmed that, can we safely proceed to declare

 3     your motion as moot?

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  We may, Your Honour, yes.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So that motion of the 1st of July

 6     relating to the testimony of Osman Dizdarevic is being declared moot.

 7             Mr. Bourgon and Mrs. Nikolic and Mr. McCloskey, on the 29th of

 8     July, there was a motion on behalf of accused Nikolic requesting

 9     protective measures and delayed disclosure of the identity of a

10     particular witness with confidential annexes A and B.  On the 31st of

11     July, the Prosecution, according to our records, stated that it had no

12     objection to the protective measures sought to wit pseudonym, facial, and

13     voice distortion, and that it had agreed with the Defence that the

14     identity of the witness would be disclosed in the week of 18th August.  I

15     personally, then, had stated that once we received a confirmation that

16     the identity of the witness had been disclosed, the protective measures

17     would -- could then be granted.

18             First, therefore, we would like to know from you particularly,

19     Mr. McCloskey, whether the identity of this witness was disclosed to you

20     prior or by the 18th of August.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  And there is, then, agreement that we

23     grant the protective measures sought, which are being hereby granted;

24     that is, pseudonym, facial, and voice distortion.  The pseudonym details

25     will be communicated to you in due course.

Page 24795

 1             Mr. Ostojic, again, and Mr. McCloskey, very recently, and I must

 2     say quite belatedly, the Beara Defence team filed another motion seeking

 3     the testimony of Seymour Jovanovic to be heard via video conference.

 4     There was further detail.  There are the reasons why particularly because

 5     he is unable to fly to The Hague in the condition he finds himself in.

 6             Now, according to the schedule that we had to date, which I

 7     understand may be the subject of some changes now, Mr. Ostojic, this

 8     gentleman, Seymour Jovanovic, is the third witness who was scheduled to

 9     testify next week in the week of 1st September; that is, at least

10     according to the note as you filed in August, on the 15th of August.

11             We haven't heard a response from the Prosecution as yet, and we

12     would therefore, first and foremost, like to know if the Prosecution is

13     in a position to give us their position on this motion.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, my understanding of this is that

15     this is some kind of medical situation and that we got, of course, in

16     Serbian, and we are in the process of going through this to determine

17     what the medical situation is.  I don't have a -- we don't have a firm

18     idea on that yet, but I should very soon.  I think we can double check

19     today.  Ms. Soljan is not with us this week, but we will try to get at

20     that.  Some of the medical terms and things and the Latin has slightly

21     delayed it.  I don't know if there's Latin in these ones, but we issue be

22     able to sort that out very quickly.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  In the meantime, Mr. Ostojic, can you give us an

24     indication of when he is likely to testify.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  If the Court -- and we understand it was perhaps

Page 24796

 1     delayed as the Court notices and mentions.  We were just made aware of it

 2     at the time of our filing.  So we didn't appreciate perhaps -- obviously,

 3     he is an older gentleman, and he provided us that information.  When he

 4     did, we submitted it.  I think it is in part in English actually, the

 5     medical record that we attach.

 6             But we've, I think, indicated to the court officer, because I

 7     know it takes time to schedule it, that we would call him, I think, on

 8     the 9th or 10th or at the convenience of the Court and the Prosecution.

 9     He was initially set by our scheduling for next week; but given his

10     condition, I'm sure that we'll accommodate whatever schedule the Court

11     allows to accommodate the Prosecution.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's work on the assumption - it being a

13     medical case - let's work on the assumption that the motion will not be

14     opposed and will be granted, and that's only for argument sake.  Start

15     working out with the office the details.  Try and schedule his testimony

16     as soon as possible, please, because my understanding --

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll do that.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- is that a minimum of a week's notice is at least

19     required, if not 10 days.

20             MR. OSTOJIC:  That's why we suggested the 9th or 10th

21     approximately.  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, yesterday, we had an unfortunate incident.  We

23     call it "unfortunate" because had you heeded our advisories, we would not

24     have arrived to that stage.  Way back on the 31st of July just before we

25     went into recess, following several exchanges between Mr. Ostojic and the

Page 24797

 1     Prosecution, we had asked you to identify who the first ten witnesses

 2     were going to be after the break; then find out whether in relation to

 3     any of these ten witnesses there is still any outstanding dispute between

 4     you as to the efficiency or otherwise of the summary, and if there are to

 5     sort these out for the time being.

 6             We noted positively that the Beara team in the meantime has filed

 7     a number of revised 65 ter witness summaries over the recess, and in its

 8     18th August filing added that it will provide additional 65 ter summaries

 9     for remaining witness in a short time.

10             We would like to know, especially since you confirmed that there

11     was another meeting yesterday evening, we would like to know whether any

12     further information has been shared, and, in particular, in relation to

13     the next witness Milan Alaica, who we've still got to authorize to be

14     added to the 65 ter witness list.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think, with the next

16     witness, we should be proceeding with no problems.  And, I think, with

17     the balance of the witnesses today, it's my understanding that we did

18     provide for Mr. Kerkez and for Ms. Cekic supplemental 65 ter summaries

19     based on our meetings with them in Belgrade a week or two weeks ago,

20     immediately prior to the start of the trial again.

21             But I understand with Mr. Milan Alaica that I think our 65 ter

22     summary was adequate.  I think they had enough information yesterday.  At

23     our meeting, we did not discuss that specifically, and I don't believe

24     there was an issue raised in connection with that particular witness.

25             We did raise other witnesses.  If the Court would like, I can set

Page 24798

 1     forth.  One witness I think the Prosecution asked for me to give the

 2     draft affidavit that we had submitted to him and the changes that were

 3     made, I'm looking to provide that to him.  I hope to get that to my

 4     learned friends by the end of the week, or tomorrow essentially, to

 5     provide a copy of that to them.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  We indicate, in particular, that Milan Alaica was

 7     amongst those whose witness summaries was considered to be insufficient,

 8     together with the following four witnesses that we are pointing out to

 9     you for further action if necessary:  One is 2DW55, the other one is

10     2DPW16, then 2DW21, 2DWPW20.  These witnesses are already scheduled.

11     Now, whether they will remain scheduled or not is another matter, since

12     Mr. Ostojic is revisiting his list.

13             Then there are these witnesses:  2DW50; Milos Tomovic.  Those are

14     two witnesses.  Then 2DW77 and Doctor Srdja Trifkovic.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyway, Mr. McCloskey, it's up to you to state or

17     confirm whether you are happy with the summaries of these individuals or

18     not.  With regard to the others, we believe that the summaries are

19     sufficient.

20             Now, in relation -- yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, the next witness, we did get an

22     additional summary for; and, as far as we know, we are okay.  We've been,

23     of course, continuing discussions with the Beara team, and we still have

24     some outstanding requests for more details.  And we still go back and

25     forth, we talk all the time, John and I were just speaking just now.  And

Page 24799

 1     to get really precise information for you on some of those others, I

 2     would need a quick check with Mr. Thayer who is the most knowledgeable on

 3     this.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Now, one further thing in relation to this

 5     next witness, who has strictly speaking not yet been added to the 65 ter

 6     witness list, the Prosecution had also objected on the basis that they

 7     considered his evidence would be evidence to be commutative to evidence

 8     on accused Beara's good character or lack of discriminatory intent and,

 9     therefore, not admissible.  We have taken stock of this submission which

10     was formalized in a motion earlier on, and we noticed that of the eight

11     witnesses on Beara's good character and/or lack of discriminatory intent

12     whom the Prosecution have challenged, two have been withdrawn and one has

13     already testified.

14             Do you still maintain your position now as to the remaining

15     witnesses, Mr. McCloskey?  Do you still maintain your op position, or do

16     you wish to withdraw your opposition to the remaining witnesses?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, if I could just discuss that with

18     Mr. Thayer, and he is prepared to talk or to inform the Court about those

19     other witnesses you mentioned about where we are on that.  So if you

20     could just excuse me for a second, I think we can sort this out.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  In the meantime, Mr. McCloskey, can we decree or

22     grant the motion so far as the next witness is concerned, Milan Alaica?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, I don't see any reason why not.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So the motion insofar as witness Milan

25     Alaica is being granted.

Page 24800

 1             And, Madam Usher, you can start preparing the witness to bring

 2     him into the courtroom, please.

 3             Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Good morning.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  I hadn't registered your presence in the courtroom

 6     before, because the column obstructed the view.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

10     I can address some of those issues, Mr. President.  With respect to the

11     Witness 2DW55, who has as his temporary pseudonym 2DPW16 - they are the

12     same person - we have received an actual proofing note with respect to

13     that individual.  And that individual I think will be the subject of some

14     discussion here, and as well as the subject of what Mr. Ostojic referred

15     to previously in terms of rescheduling.  That is the witness to whom he

16     was referring scheduling for the week of 8 September.

17             With respect to 2DW21, my belief is that that witness has already

18     testified, if I've got the number right.  Milan Vojinovic.  I believe, in

19     fact, I think I may have cross-examined him.  So, yeah, I think that may

20     be a moot issue.  And, again, I may not have gotten the number correct,

21     but 2DWPW20, we've got no record of.  I'm not sure if there's a name, if

22     we can said it in open court, that the Trial Chamber has attach to that,

23     that would be helpful, but that number is not popping up.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Maybe I could help.  I thought we had him as

25     Vasovic Perica, who also testified.

Page 24801

 1             MR. THAYER:  He has testified.  If it is 2DW20, then he has

 2     already come and gone.  So, with respect to those summaries, I think we

 3     are okay.  I've sent an e-mail to my friends, we've had some discussions,

 4     we do have some outstanding requests with respect to three of the

 5     upcoming witnesses:  2DW5, Mr. Mitrovic; 2DW50; and 2DW77.  That's been

 6     the subject of a couple of requests.  I think we'll be able to work on it

 7     a little more to get some detail.  2DW50 is Mr. Tomovic.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll leave it at there for the time being, and

10     then depending on the outcome of your further consultations, we'll come

11     back to you or you come back to us.

12             MR. THAYER:  One last note, Mr. President, I think to clarify for

13     everybody's sake.  If we are looking at the list of witnesses for the

14     month of September that was filed I think on the 14th or 15th of August,

15     the one that lists week five and week six, we discussed this last night

16     as well.  There are two witnesses listed who I think have been now

17     withdrawn because one - and this is 2DW58 - was actually admitted

18     pursuant to Rule 92 bis pursuant to the Court's 10 July order.  I think

19     we are in agreement that he is not coming.

20             Then there's 2DW61 who my friend withdraw in his 16 July filing,

21     so he is not coming, and that's beside the three other witnesses that

22     were withdrawn in one of my friend's filings:  2DW30, 54, and 53.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  So we can start with the new

24     witness.

25             Good morning to you, sir.  Did you hear me?

Page 24802

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good morning to you, and welcome to this

 3     Tribunal.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are about to start giving evidence, and before

 6     you do so, you are required to enter a solemn declaration that you will

 7     be speaking the truth.  The text is being handed to you now, please read

 8     it out aloud, but please stand up, first of all.  Please read out that

 9     declaration aloud, and that will be injury solemn undertaking with us.

10     It's equivalent to an oath in some jurisdictions.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Please make yourself

14     comfortable.  Mr. Nikolic from the Beara Defence team will be putting

15     some questions to you.

16             Mr. Nikolic.

17             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. President.

18                           WITNESS:  MILAN ALAICA

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Examination by Mr. Nikolic:

21        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Alaica.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   I will introduce myself.  My name is Predrag Nikolic, attorney at

24     law, member of the Defence team of Mr. Ljubisa Beara.  I will pose

25     questions today on behalf of the Defence team.  May we move on?

Page 24803

 1        A.   Yes, certainly.

 2        Q.   Mr. Alaica, I will ask you to introduce yourself so that we will

 3     have that on the record.

 4        A.   My name is Milan Alaica, father's name Dragan, mother's name

 5     Mila, born in 1954, in the village of Pescenica [phoen], municipality of

 6     Vrgin Most, the Republic of Croatia.

 7        Q.   What is your educational background?

 8        A.   I completed the School of the Interior and additional courses

 9     during my career.  I did two courses in particular, one for encryption

10     special list and another for a forensic technician.

11        Q.   What was your employment like, Mr. Alaica?

12        A.   I used to work in Split in the Ministry of the Interior of the

13     Republic of Croatia until the war.

14        Q.   What were your jobs with the ministry?

15        A.   I began as a beat policeman, and then I advanced.  After having

16     completed the encryption course, I was moved to the encryption department

17     in Split.

18        Q.   A moment ago you said that you worked in Split until the war.

19     Why did you say that?  Is that when you stopped working?

20        A.   Yes.  I stopped working in 1991 when the all-familiar events

21     began taking place in Croatia.  For those of us who were Serbs, there was

22     no place in the governmental offices of the Republic of Croatia.  I was

23     demoted from my position for a while.  I again was returned to be a

24     patrolman.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic, we need to have a break of about ten

Page 24804

 1     to 15 minutes, please.

 2                           --- Break taken at 9.51 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.07 a.m.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

 5             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, during the break, I

 6     received a note from the registry that we should ascertain what the

 7     precise last name of the witness is.  In the transcript, we have

 8     "Alaica."  It may well be that I misspoke, and perhaps we should clarify

 9     that issue, first.

10        Q.   Mr. Alaica, could you please tell us precisely what your last

11     name is slowly, so that we could have it recorded correctly?

12        A.   A-l-a-i-c-a, without a J.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I believe we can move on.

14             I want to remind you that we left off when you started talking

15     about the problems at work.  How did you deal with them?  Did you remain

16     with the Ministry of the Interior or not?

17        A.   I did not.  There was no possibility to leave Split since the

18     town was blocked.  My family was mistreated.  Since I knew Mr. Beara,

19     since before the war, say from 1998 --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1988.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when he moved into the apartment

22     next to my brother's apartment.  My brother's name is Bosko.  Bosko was

23     also a member of the JNA.  My brother, Bosko, advised me to talk to

24     Mr. Beara, so that we could see what the possibilities are of me being

25     transferred to the military police.

Page 24805

 1             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   What year was that and what period, what month, when all this was

 3     taking place?

 4        A.   This was taking place between May 1991 and the 1st of November,

 5     1991, when I was officially received by the military police battalion.

 6        Q.   What were your duties in the military police battalion?

 7        A.   My duties were that of a desk clerk in charge of combatting crime

 8     and all other tasks that had to do with the department for the military

 9     police.

10        Q.   The MP battalion, where was it located at the time?

11        A.   The battalion command was in the Dracevac Barracks.  It's units

12     were assigned to different facilities, important facilities, and

13     barracks, to provide security.  That was in Split and its environs.

14        Q.   You said that was in 1991?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   What was the ethnic makeup of the MP battalion at the time?

17        A.   The ethnic makeup was -- well, it was small Yugoslavia, if I can

18     put it that way.

19        Q.   Could you clarify that?

20        A.   There were Muslims, Croats, Serbs from all parts of Yugoslavia,

21     Macedonians, Slovenians, Siptars.

22        Q.   During that period, could the MP battalion function normally and

23     move about the city?

24        A.   No.  For the most part, we had big problems because their

25     barracks was blocked as well by the then-paramilitary formations, even if

Page 24806

 1     we talk from the point of view of the Croatian government.  Those

 2     formations were preventing any movement on the part of the military

 3     police members as well as all the other JNA units.

 4        Q.   Can you recall who was the then-MP battalion commander?

 5        A.   It was -- I cannot remember exactly.  In any case, his deputy was

 6     Bajat Velimir who later became commander.

 7        Q.   At the time, how could the MP battalion commander organise its

 8     functioning, as well as the functioning of its different departments?

 9        A.   With great difficulty.  With the assistance of the Superior

10     Command and its security department, that was headed by Mr. Beara who

11     coordinated the work of the battalion vis-a-vis the navy war command, as

12     well as any talks that were to take place with the monitors of the

13     then-European Community.  They were in charge of coordination, and,

14     therefore, to a certain extent, they could enable the battalion to

15     function in a certain way under the limited conditions.

16        Q.   Were you able to observe Mr. Beara in action and how he went

17     about his work in order to resolve the problems?

18        A.   Yes, I did.  Because when I joined the MP battalion as an

19     experienced policeman, I was assigned precisely to the navy command where

20     Mr. Beara was as well.  In other words, I was there on the premises and I

21     took part in some security tasks during the talks and the negotiations

22     and the rest of it.

23        Q.   Can you tell me some of his specific actions that reflect -- or

24     rather, tell me, how did he behave towards resolving the situation that

25     the MP battalion found itself in?

Page 24807

 1        A.   Since at the time the families of the MP battalion were in

 2     danger, Mr. Beara spent most of his time in trying to rescue the women

 3     and the children of us members of the military police, as well as of

 4     other officers from other units.  So, in all these talks and

 5     negotiations, he tried to obtain permissions for these people since they

 6     were actually confined in their residences to be transferred to the

 7     barracks in order to reunite with their fathers, husbands, and so on.

 8        Q.   How did you manage at all to do your daily job with such a great

 9     number of civilians arriving at the barracks?

10        A.   We organised ourselves by allocating a number of rooms.  We

11     vacated them, removed all the military equipment and the officers who

12     were there, and we housed the women and the children in these rooms.

13        Q.   We are talking about now the MP battalion at the command, but you

14     also said that there were members of the military police outside of the

15     city securing certain facilities?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What was the situation with these members of the military police?

18        A.   The major problem or the biggest problem was the attached

19     facility in Zrnovnica.  It was secured by one of our companies commanded

20     by Lieutenant Senad Burzic, and his deputy was Rajko Milovanovic.  For

21     the most part, this unit was made up of various -- members of various

22     ethnicities, but they were all professionals so these were professional

23     military personnel.

24        Q.   Before I ask you the next question, can you please now repeat the

25     exact name of this facility that you just mentioned, please say it very

Page 24808

 1     loudly and clearly so that it can be recorded?

 2        A.   Zrnovnica, Z-r-n-o-v-n-i-c-a.

 3        Q.   You said that the most serious problem was with the security at

 4     this location.  Why was that and what problems were there?

 5        A.   This facility was of vital importance for the defence of the city

 6     of Split and central Adriatic coast, because in it were rocket launchers

 7     and other coastal artillery.

 8        Q.   Were there any attacks launched on this facility?

 9        A.   From day one when the conflict started, this facility was

10     besieged and surrounded by paramilitary units of the Republic of Croatia;

11     and every day and every night, it was attacked and fired on from small

12     arms and from mortars.

13        Q.   Were there any casualties among members of the battalion as a

14     result of these attacks?

15        A.   Yes, there were.  In one of the more serious attacks, the company

16     commander, Senad Burzic, was wounded, as well as his deputy, Rajko

17     Milovanovic, and also a couple of soldiers but I don't remember their

18     names.

19        Q.   What happened with this man, Burzic, and his deputy?  Where were

20     they taken after they had been wounded?

21        A.   At first, for the whole day, the paramilitary did not allow any

22     medical assistance to be given to them.  Then, on the assistance of

23     Mr. Beara for the European Community, observers to come to the navy

24     command.  He wanted to -- an agreement to be reached on how to place

25     these people in hospital.  They arrived in the afternoon, talks were

Page 24809

 1     held, and, as a result, an ambulance was allowed to come in and evacuate

 2     the wounded to hospital.

 3             They were taken to a civilian hospital in Split, although there

 4     was a military hospital in Split as well, but they were taken to the

 5     civilian hospital.

 6        Q.   Do you remember, or rather, do you know what kind of wounds

 7     Burzic sustained?

 8        A.   Senad Burzic sustained serious bodily injuries, his leg was

 9     amputated; and Rajko Milovanovic was wounded to the head; and the other

10     soldiers sustained light injuries.

11        Q.   How was this problem with Senad Burzic and his deputy who were

12     wounded was solved?  Where did they receive medical help?

13        A.   Since the navy command received information - that is to say,

14     Mr. Beara received it - that the wounded were not properly taken care of,

15     he again insisted on the EC observers organising and allowing the wounded

16     to be taken over from the Split hospital, and be transferred to the

17     medical -- military medical academy in Belgrade.  That was done after

18     some time.  They were airlifted by helicopter to the military medical

19     academy in Belgrade where they received proper medical care.

20        Q.   Did you know Senad Burzic?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   Did you receive any follow-up information about what happened to

23     him after he had been transferred to the military hospital in Belgrade?

24        A.   After the unit was relocated from Split to Kumbor in Montenegro,

25     we received information that Senad Burzic was discharged from the

Page 24810

 1     military hospital and that he had gone to visit his parents in a village

 2     near Sanski Most in Bosnia.

 3        Q.   Where was the unit billeted at the time, and what time of period

 4     are we talking about?

 5        A.   On the 5th of February, the whole unit gathered together in

 6     Kumbor in Montenegro.

 7        Q.   Did you maintain contact with these wounded members of the

 8     MP battalion, Burzic and the others?  What happened to them afterwards?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  Depending on the possibilities and the available

10     communications, lines, telephones and the like, we maintained permanent

11     contact with our members irrespective of their whereabouts.

12        Q.   What was the role -- or rather, how did Ljubisa Beara act as the

13     head of the security department after the unit had been relocated?  Did

14     he show any interest in these individuals bearing in mind that there was

15     contact where -- between the MP battalion and the security department?

16        A.   Yes.  He took care of every single member of the battalion; and

17     in May, information was received that Senad Burzic was having problems in

18     his village where he was visiting his parents.

19        Q.   What problems are we talking about, do you know?

20        A.   As we understand, there were some combat operations around Sanski

21     Most, and Senad Burzic and his wife and children tried to get out of the

22     area and the combat zone with the help of JNA members -- or rather, a

23     member of the JNA that he had been acquainted with from the time he

24     attended the academy, he was transferred to Belgrade.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We have to break now.  I am, after

Page 24811

 1     consulting with my colleagues, reducing it to 20 minutes.  Thank you.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

 5             MR. NIKOLIC:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Alaica, you said that the entire command

 7     moved to a new location in Kumbor.  What about the MP battalion as well

 8     as the other units, did they keep the mixed ethnic makeup that they used

 9     to have in Split?

10        A.   Yes, they did.  The ethnic makeup of the battalion remained the

11     same to that one in Split.

12        Q.   New location, new work organisation.  What was the behaviour of

13     Mr. Beara to the people who were of different ethnicities, other

14     ethnicities?

15        A.   Beara was an exceptional officer in the sense that he respected

16     each and every member regardless of their ethnicity or any other

17     affiliation.  It could particularly be seen through the prism of his head

18     of security.  It was Lieutenant Nermin Jusic who was a Muslim.  In the

19     that department, there were other ethnicities represented as well.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Sergeant, rather

21     than Lieutenant.

22             MR. NIKOLIC:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the name of the person

24     you mentioned who was with the security.  You said Jusic, but his first

25     name was not recorded?

Page 24812

 1        A.   The commander of his department or his unit for security and

 2     escort was Nermin Jusic, sergeant first class.

 3        Q.   Can you cite and example of what you called fair behaviour of

 4     Mr. Beara vis-a-vis the number of other ethnicities?

 5        A.   Let's go back to Senad Burzic that we mentioned.  When we learned

 6     that he was experiencing problems in Bosnia, where there was combat

 7     between some paramilitary Serb and Muslim formations, Beara ordered our

 8     commander to dispatch a vehicle to Belgrade, and to transfer Burzic's

 9     family from Belgrade to Kumbor so that we could be closer to him and his

10     family and to assist him through the rough times.

11             As regards other ethnicities, all those who wanted to relocate

12     outside Croatia to Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, regardless of their

13     ethnicity, it was Ljubisa who helped all of them.  He secured transport

14     of both their families and property.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

16             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

17        Q.   The events related to Senad Burzic, when was that?

18        A.   Sometime in the spring of 1992.  I don't remember any exact

19     dates.  After he arrived, I think it was sometime in April, his arrival

20     in Kumbor, he told us what he had been through and how he had faired.  He

21     also -- he also used his leg prosthesis as he was flying through the

22     woods.  Since he could move with difficulty using the crutches and

23     without his prosthesis, during a meeting and upon Beara's proposal, it

24     was decided that we should all contribute one per diem in order to buy

25     him a new prosthesis that was purchased in Germany.

Page 24813

 1        Q.   Mr. Alaica, you said that the commander of a military police unit

 2     was Nermin Jusic.  I'm interested in your opinion.  Did Beara truly

 3     believe and trust the people of other ethnicities, or was he just putting

 4     up an act to try to keep the semblance of this mixed ethnic makeup?

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  Objection, speculation.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Alaica, we don't want you to speculate.  We

 9     want you to tell us, if you can, if you succeeded in forming an opinion

10     on this, based on what you saw, whether you can make an assessment,

11     without speculating.  If you don't know, if you have doubts, you just

12     keep your mouth shut then.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my opinion concerning

14     Ljubisa's conduct towards the members of other ethnicities is a very

15     positive one.  At no moment could one feel him making any difference

16     between any of us members of the battalion belonging to different

17     ethnicities.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

19             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Can you specify another example to further corroborate your

21     opinion?

22        A.   In early May 1992, Nermin Jusic complained that his family was in

23     danger in Bratunac.  He asked if he could be helped.  He went to see

24     Ljubisa.  Ljubisa ordered our commander that I should report to his

25     office.  When I arrived in his office, he offered me to sit down, to have

Page 24814

 1     coffee, much as he did with each and every officer that would come to his

 2     office.  He lay the problem on the table.  He said that an officer of our

 3     family is in danger in Bratunac and that it would be good if we could

 4     pull them out of that area to a free area.

 5             At a certain point, Sergeant Jusic was led into the office as

 6     well, and Ljubisa again told me then this:  "If you believe that this

 7     would put your life in danger, I am not going to order you to do this in

 8     military terms, but I would rather ask you, person to person, to help

 9     this man and his family."  Since I was the most experienced in the

10     battalion and all of the others were junior to me, save for the

11     commander, I said that, yes, I would take that on and that I will do what

12     can be done.

13        Q.   When was that in what month and year, and where were you at the

14     time?

15        A.   It was in the first half of May 1992.  We were in Kumbor in

16     Montenegro.

17        Q.   Did you respond positively to Mr. Beara's plea, and, of course,

18     to Mr. Jusic's?

19        A.   I did.

20        Q.   Can you tell me briefly how you went about that?  Did you, in

21     fact, manage to reach Bratunac?

22             MR. MITCHELL:  Objection, leading.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please answer the question.  We don't see that it's

25     a leading question.  Sorry to the interpreters.  We don't see it as a

Page 24815

 1     leading question.  Please answer the question.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We organised ourselves in a

 3     fashion that I went there, together with Sergeant Jusic and another

 4     soldier driver, with our MP vehicle.  It was an off-road vehicle, a jeep.

 5     We set out the same day in the afternoon, arriving sometime in the

 6     evening around 9 p.m. to Uzice.  We rested there, had dinner, refueled,

 7     and gathered information on how we should proceed further, in what

 8     direction.  This, we learned from members of the internal organs in

 9     Uzice.  In Uzice, we were told that it was not advisable to go in that

10     since there was combat.  I insisted that I go regardless of what the

11     nature of combat was.

12             Early the next morning, I set out together with the driver and

13     Jusic, arriving at far as Ljubovija.  Once there, on the other side of

14     the Drina from the direction of Bratunac, one could hear firing and

15     explosions.  We presumed, therefore, that there was still combat.

16        Q.   Just a moment, I want to interrupt you for a second.  Where is

17     Ljubovija, in what republic?

18        A.   The Republic of Serbia, it's across Bratunac, the Drina is

19     between the two.

20        Q.   How did you cross the river to reach Bratunac?

21        A.   Once we arrived in Ljubovija, I reported to the Crisis Staff with

22     the intention of learning what the possibilities were to cross the river

23     and to seek any approvals that I might need to enter Bosnia; however,

24     they refused to issue any sort of pass.  They just told me that I was

25     going there at my own risk, that is there was combat, and that they

Page 24816

 1     advised me not to go.

 2             In the meantime, while I was negotiating with the people from the

 3     Crisis Staff, Nermin Jusic recognised some of the people in front of the

 4     building in the street.  One of those people told him that his mother,

 5     brother, and sister were in Ljubovija accommodated with a family friend

 6     of their father's, Jusic's father, and that we should go and look for

 7     them there.

 8             When I came out of the building, Jusic told me that we should go

 9     to a house nearby since his brother, sister, and mother were supposed to

10     be there.  Once we got to the house, we found, indeed, his mother,

11     brother, and sister there.  His mother began to cry.  She kneeled down

12     and started kissing my boots.  I wouldn't have that, I asked her to get

13     up on my feet.  I told her that I was doing that as a duty of mine and

14     that I did that following the where of Mr. Ljubisa Beara and her son

15     Nermin who initiated the whole operation.

16             In our further discussion with the mother, she told us that in

17     Bratunac, there was still Nermin's grandmother there on his father's

18     side, and that they had no information on her.  They, however, arrived in

19     Ljubovija without any footwear or clothes, without any IDs and money.  I

20     decided that we should go to Bratunac regardless of the circumstances.

21             Nermin's mother asked me to try and find some personal documents,

22     if we can, and also to bring back some clothes.  She asked me to go into

23     a small cellar under the stairs in the house, telling me that there was a

24     plastic bag under a barrel there containing some of their valuables like

25     gold, some money, things that any house would have, family jewellery.

Page 24817

 1     And she asked me to bring that back in case I found it.  After awhile, we

 2     set out; I mean, myself, Nermin and the driver.

 3        Q.   And did you reach the house?

 4        A.   When we arrived at the bridge on the Drina, the police of the

 5     Republic of Serbia was securing the Serbian side, and they told us that

 6     they couldn't let us pass through because there was fighting going on

 7     there.  I explained to them briefly that I was on a mission, that it was

 8     not their problem, that it was my problem, that they should let me go

 9     through, and that is what they did.

10             When we crossed over to the other side and entered the

11     municipality of Bratunac, we were met on the bridge by some armed

12     civilians who had no proper uniforms or insignia.  They were armed with

13     some outdated weapons from the second World War.  They were looking very

14     untidy.  They behaved arrogantly, started to threaten us, and told us

15     that they would not let us go to Bratunac.  After some serious argument

16     and quarrel with them, we were persistent and we somehow managed to make

17     them let us go through and arrived in Bratunac.

18             When we reached the centre of the town, Nermin told me on the way

19     that it would be best if we dropped by at the municipal building because

20     that is where the Crisis Staff was headquartered and to ask them for

21     help, so that we can move more freely around Bratunac.

22        Q.   Excuse me.  Can I just interrupt you for a second.  At the time,

23     were you wearing the military police uniforms?

24        A.   Yes.  We had proper uniforms.  We had small arms.  Our vehicle

25     was marked as a proper military police vehicle with all the stickers and

Page 24818

 1     rotation lights and everything else.

 2        Q.   So dressed in your uniforms and driving such a vehicle, you

 3     crossed over to the Bratunac where you were accosted by these

 4     paramilitary units?

 5        A.   When we arrived in front of the municipal building, there was a

 6     number of people dressed in various clothes.  We could hear shots coming

 7     from the direction of the hotel.  Everyone was nervous and anxious.  They

 8     walked towards us and tried to disarm us and to confiscate our vehicle.

 9     I confronted them and said that I was on a mission and that I was on my

10     way to see the president of the Crisis Staff.

11             We somehow managed to enter the building, the municipal building.

12     In the hall of the building, there was a civilian with a beard, armed

13     with a machine gun from the second World War.  He stopped us and said

14     that we couldn't enter the building and see the president.  We started

15     quarrelling with him there.

16             At one point, a civilian emerged from one of the offices, I

17     remember that he had a leather cap on his head, and he asked what was all

18     this about, why we were arguing.  Nermin then addressed him and said --

19     and called him "Professor."  This man turned towards Nermin and said,

20     "Nermin, is that you?"  And he said, "Yes, it is me."  They embraced each

21     other, and we explained to him why we came.

22             After that, he took us to the office of the president of the

23     Crisis Staff.  When we entered the office, the president of the Crisis

24     Staff was very abrasive.  He was in a hurry.  He was constantly answering

25     the phone or the radio and receiving information and/or exchanging

Page 24819

 1     information because there was allegedly fighting going on in the vicinity

 2     of the motel, and in the village, as I understood it.

 3        Q.   Mr. Alaica, did you manage to reach Nrmin's house?

 4        A.   When we explained to him that our intention was to go to the

 5     house in order to pick up his family's documents and valuables and to see

 6     what was happening with his grandmother, he said that he had no objection

 7     to that, but that he thought it would be ill-advised for us to go there

 8     because there was fighting in the town.  We told him that we were

 9     determined to go regardless of any fighting and asked him to give us one

10     man, if possible, to accompany us for the purpose of security and for

11     moving around the town better.

12             This professor then offered to accompany us himself.  We all got

13     into the car and went to his house.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic, we have been extremely, extremely

15     patient, but it has come to a stage where we have to bring it to order.

16     None of this appeared in the summaries.  You are going into much detail

17     that has absolutely no relevance.  Please stick to the reason why you

18     summoned this witness.  All this is unnecessary, completely irrelevant.

19     I don't know why you are wasting your and our time.

20             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] You are right, Your Honour.  I was

21     just about to ask the witness to finish this story.  And if you allow me

22     to continue, I shall finish shortly.

23        Q.   Mr. Bosko -- excuse me, Mr. Milan [sic], your intention was to

24     locate the family and you reached the house.  Did you find Mr. Jusic's

25     grandmother; and, tell us briefly, did you succeed in your intentions?

Page 24820

 1        A.   Yes.  We found the documents and everything else that his mother

 2     had asked for, then we went to his grandmother's house which was in the

 3     centre of the town.  Once there, Nermin alighted from the car and entered

 4     the house, but he didn't find his grandmother there.  He came out again

 5     where the professor and I were standing in the street, and at that moment

 6     the shooting quietened.

 7             A woman came out of the neighbouring house across the street, and

 8     she asked us who we were looking for.  Nermin recognised her and told her

 9     that we were looking for his grandmother.  She told him that she was in

10     the cellar of her house.  Nermin went with her to her house, took out his

11     grandmother, we put her in into the car and headed for Ljubovija.

12        Q.   Did you manage to get back to Ljubovija?

13        A.   As soon as we reached the bridge on the Drina, we again

14     encountered the same problems with the same men that we had had on our

15     way there, but there were many more of them now.  I also noticed that we

16     had been followed by a car --

17        Q.   Mr. Alaica, I have to interrupt you here.  You set off on this

18     trip in order to save the family of Mr. Jusic.  Did you manage to reunite

19     the family, and did you manage to rescue them from this environment?

20        A.   Yes, we did.  We gathered them all together and took them to

21     Kumbor in Montenegro where they stayed until their departure.

22        Q.   Did you report about all this to Ljubisa Beara?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   And tell us at the end what his reaction was?

25        A.   He was very pleased with how we accomplished the mission, and he

Page 24821

 1     was very happy to see the family united in one place and that they were

 2     able to help each other in their further life.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Alaica.  I have no

 4     further questions.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Zivanovic, you had asked for ten minutes.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I will not cross-examine this witness, Your

 8     Honours.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

10             Ms. Nikolic, just for a quarter of an hour?

11             MS. NIKOLIC:  I have no questions.  Thank you, madam.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic, you had asked for ten minutes.

13             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No questions.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau, you asked for ten minutes.

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no other question, Your

16     Honour.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, madam.

18             Mr. Krgovic, no cross-examination, confirm.

19             MR. JOSSE:  Confirmed.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  And, Mr. Sarapa, you had asked for 15 minutes, but

21     you require none.

22             MR. SARAPA:  No questions.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Mitchell.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  No questions, Your Honour.

Page 24822

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 2             We don't have any further questions for you, which means that

 3     your testimony comes to an end here.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I

 4     thank you for having come over to give testimony; and on behalf of

 5     everyone present, I wish you a safe journey back home.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  So that disposes of this witness.

 8             We can bring in the next one.  It is Mrs. Cekic, is that correct?

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  That is correct, Mr. President.

10             Just two minor items with respect to this witness.  At the last

11     break, I had an opportunity to speak with her briefly, and there's a

12     typographical error on the 65 ter summary, and I advised my learned

13     friend of that.  It's 1985.  I believe that we'll hear that evidence, but

14     I know Mr. Thayer is asking.  So I wasn't sure if he got that message.  I

15     did speak to Mr. McCloskey in connection with that.

16             The other issue, Mr. President, involves a personal matter with

17     respect to this witness and I'd like just to share it with the Court,

18     because during her testimony, I'd like to go into private session because

19     it's a sensitive issue, but I'd like to advise you about it prior to me

20     doing so, so that you can either permit me or I'm deny me the right to go

21     into private session.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Go ahead.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  If I can go into private session now, so I can

24     explain it to you.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go into private session.

Page 24823

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 24824

 1      (redacted).

 2                           [Open session]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Usher.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, madam.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are most welcome to this Tribunal and in this

 8     case, where you are going to give evidence as a Defence witness for

 9     accused Beara.  Before you start giving your testimony, our Rules require

10     that you make a solemn declaration that in the course of your testimony

11     YOU will be speaking the truth.  Madam Usher, the lady who is standing

12     next to you, is going to hand you the text of the declaration.  Please

13     read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, madam, please make yourself comfortable.

17                           WITNESS:  MIROSLAVA CEKIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Mr. President, before we go into --

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Ostojic.

21             Mr. Zivanovic.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  There is something wrong at page 39,

23     line 7, yes, about the last name of the witness.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think, if I can, just for the record,

25     Mr. President, just have her name -- it's Miroslava, M-i-r-o-s-l-a-v-a.

Page 24825

 1             Then on line 7 of page 39, I would --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  The word "Zivanovic" has to disappear.  We don't

 3     want to complicate your private life, Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Ostojic:

 7        Q.   Good morning, Ms. Cekic.  As you know, my name is John Ostojic.

 8     I'm one of the attorneys for Mr. Ljubisa Beara, and we are going to ask

 9     you a few questions here today.  I'm going to ask you and try not to

10     speak quickly so that you can fully understand the question, and I'll

11     give you an opportunity to answer the question.

12             Initially, for the record, can you please state your full name?

13        A.   Miroslava Cekic.

14        Q.   Kindly share with us your date of birth, and not necessarily the

15     year, but you can do so if you desire, and your place of birth?

16        A.   16th of May, 1949.  The place of birth is Curug.

17        Q.   For those of us who may not be the place of Curug, can you tell

18     us in what country that is?

19        A.   That's Serbia, and the nearest big town is Novi Sad.

20        Q.   Madam Cekic, I would like to ask a little bit about your

21     background.  Can you tell us the extent of your education and what is the

22     highest level of education that you've attained?

23        A.   I finished the PTT secondary school in the late 1974; and in the

24     same year, I found employment at the PTT Yugoslavia, as it was called

25     then.  And I'm still employed; only now it is called Telecom Serbia.

Page 24826

 1        Q.   Just describe briefly for us the job duties or the capacity of

 2     your employment with PTT Serbia, or Telecom Serbia, I'm sorry.

 3        A.   I used to work in the maintenance department until three and a

 4     half years ago; and since these PTT devices are obsolete, they have been

 5     replaced by newer ones.  And I was transferred to the trade union

 6     organisation of Telecom Serbia, and this is where I'm still working.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  Mr. President, may we please go into private

 8     session for the next couple of questions.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Certainly.  Let's go into private session, please.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 24827

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:

 6        Q.   Can you share with us what your late husband did for purposes of

 7     employment, to get an understanding of his background?

 8        A.   My late husband worked for Split-Jadro company, a flower

 9     distribution company.  A shipment of flowers arrived every day from Split

10     to Belgrade, and he would distribute it to the flower dealers.

11        Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Nada Beara?

12        A.   Yes, I do.  Nada Beara was my late husband's supervisor, and she

13     also worked for Split Jadro in Split.  And they communicated along this

14     business lines and relations, but later on it turned into a friendship

15     and they used to get together whenever Nada would come to Belgrade.

16        Q.   Did you have a chance to meet and know Mr. Ljubisa Beara?

17        A.   Yes.  I later met Mr. Ljubisa Beara as well, whenever he had an

18     opportunity to accompany Nada to Belgrade when she attended flower

19     exhibitions or when there was a meeting that she had to have with your

20     business associates.

21        Q.   Just so I can have the time parameters, when did this business

22     relationship or working relationship between Ms. Nada Beara and your late

23     husband, Tomo, begin?

24        A.   Well, it all began in 1985.  That is when I met Mrs. Nada Beara.

25     They had probably known each other before.  I don't remember exactly when

Page 24828

 1     this flower business was started and when these shipments started

 2     arriving from Split to Belgrade.  But in the years after 1985, we used to

 3     meet occasionally when she was on business in Belgrade.

 4        Q.   And share with us, if you will, when the social relationship with

 5     you and your late husband and the Bearas began?

 6        A.   Well, we started socialising in 1991 when Nada and her younger

 7     son, Branco, came to Belgrade from Split, and that is where they

 8     continued living.

 9        Q.   Give us the general idea how often from 1991 would you socialize

10     with the Bearas?

11        A.   Well, whenever we had time, we would speak on the phone during

12     the week.  Sometimes during the weekends on Friday evenings or Saturday

13     evenings, we would get together either at their place or at our place.

14        Q.   And thank you for that.  I think I understand.  But give me an

15     idea:  Was it once a month, once a week, every several months, or rarely,

16     often?  You mentioned the dates on the Saturdays and Fridays, but I still

17     don't have an appreciation, with all due respect, how often and how

18     regular you would meet with the Bearas.

19        A.   We would see each other depending on the amount of time we had

20     when we would be free of obligations.  This includes both my late husband

21     and myself.  However, we would speak on the phone at least once or twice

22     within any given week.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember during the period of -- and are you

24     still maintaining a social relationship with Nada Beara at least?

25        A.   Yes, I am.

Page 24829

 1        Q.   And I know you haven't seen Mr. Ljubisa Beara for a few years,

 2     but did you maintain -- or share with us whether or not you maintained a

 3     social relationship with both Nada and Ljubisa Beara up to and including

 4     the year 2004?

 5        A.   Yes, we socialized.  We saw each other in 2000.  That is when my

 6     husband died and they attending the funeral; Nada and Ljubisa, that is.

 7     Before that, we would see each other as friends, visiting their home, or

 8     they visited us for coffee or a meal.  In 2001, on the first anniversary

 9     of my husband's death, Mr. Ljubisa attended the memorial church service

10     with me, and Nada was unable to attend at that time.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to change a little bit.  Are you familiar

12     with the name of an individual by Milan Stanic?

13        A.   Yes, I am.

14        Q.   Tell us, to the best of your knowledge, who he is?

15        A.   Milan Stanic is an attorney at law.  I believe he is a member of

16     the Beara Defence team.  I met him this year in late February when he

17     returned from the Tribunal.

18        Q.   We'll get to that detail in a little bit.  Thank you for that.

19             Prior to February of 2008, did you know or ever meet Milan

20     Stanic?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And, just so the record so we have a complete record, when was

23     the first time that you met me, ma'am?

24        A.   I saw you for the first time this summer, I believe, in

25     mid-August.

Page 24830

 1        Q.   And with me, is that the first time that you met Mr. Peter

 2     Nikolic, who is also counsel for Mr. Beara, to my left?

 3        A.   That is correct, yes.

 4        Q.   Let me go back to Milan Stanic, and you were starting to tell us

 5     about the circumstances upon your first meeting with him in February of

 6     2008.  Can you tell us where that meeting took place?

 7        A.   I was visiting Nada; and after awhile, Mr. Stanic arrived as

 8     well.  That is how we met.

 9        Q.   I am sorry to interrupt you.  I just want to be as specific as

10     possible on some of these details.

11             You were visiting Nada where?

12        A.   In her house.

13        Q.   Then please proceed.  I am sorry.

14             Then you started to tell us that Mr. Stanic arrived at the house

15     or at the apartment of the Bearas, and then was there anyone else present

16     at that time?

17        A.   No.  It was just Nada, myself, and Mr. Stanic.

18        Q.   Did you engage in any conversation at that time in February of

19     2008 with Mr. Stanic at the Beara apartment?

20        A.   Yes.  Since he said he had visited Ljubisa, I asked him how he

21     was doing, what he looked like, and whether he was all right.  He told me

22     that he looked well, that he was doing well; then we started talking

23     about this and that, about what was happening and was still happening in

24     Belgrade.

25        Q.   Approximately how long did you have this meeting with Mr. Stanic?

Page 24831

 1        A.   I sat there for about an hour and a half, maybe two.

 2        Q.   Did you discuss at any time inclusive of the February 2008 period

 3     with Mr. Stanic the potential for you to be a prospective witness on

 4     behalf of Ljubisa Beara?

 5        A.   He asked me how long I knew Ljubisa.  He asked me what sort of a

 6     person he was and whether we were friends, and I responded to most of his

 7     questions positively.  He asked me whether we used to see each other when

 8     Ljubisa came, and since I knew that Ljubisa was in the Republika Srpska,

 9     whether we saw each other at that time.  I told him that, indeed, we saw

10     him, that he would call by phone, and we socialised time permitting.

11        Q.   Did you share with Mr. Stanic any other details, and particularly

12     things that may have occurred in 1995?

13        A.   Mr. Stanic asked me if I remembered any details or meetings

14     during 1995.

15        Q.   And how did you respond?

16        A.   I told him that there were things I remembered.  It was quite a

17     long time ago when you count the years, but there are details that one

18     remembers and does not forget easily.

19        Q.   Would you mind sharing it with us?  What are some of those

20     details with respect to 1995 that you told Mr. Stanic?  What is it that

21     you remember?

22        A.   I remember, for instance, that in 1995 by that time our financial

23     situation was not so good.  We all know that as early as 1991 or 1992,

24     there were no more flower shipments coming to Belgrade from Split.  The

25     company focused itself on a different flower operation.  It was by that

Page 24832

 1     time called Beo-Jadro.  My husband was still working for them, and they

 2     were getting flowers from the countries surrounding Serbia.

 3             I could recall certain meetings; and as long as the money lasted,

 4     we were able to go on holidays, my husband and I.  But by 1994 and 1995,

 5     the money had run out.  We had difficulties making our ends meet.  Since

 6     in May there's my birthday - on that day, Ljubisa was in Belgrade - I

 7     invited both him and Nada to come over, not for the sake of the birthday,

 8     but simply to sit down together and chat.  Since he was a merry person,

 9     he was attentive and he liked bringing small presents.  And on that

10     occasion, Nada and he brought a small pendant with a small anchor, since

11     he spent a good part of his life at seaside.

12             We chatted perhaps after that day.  In May, we may have seen each

13     other briefly on one or two other occasions.  Then, in July, Toma spoke

14     to Ljubisa --

15        Q.   Sorry to interrupt you.  What year in July?

16        A.   1995.

17        Q.   Sorry.  Please proceed.  You can proceed.  Sorry.

18        A.   Ljubisa arrived.  My late husband and he spoke on the phone.

19     They arranged that we should all see each other that evening, but that we

20     should go to a nearby restaurant.  I live at Sumatovacka Street, which is

21     part of the Kalenovic Market area in Belgrade.  He gave it a second

22     thought; but since my husband insisted, he and Nada arrived in the

23     evening.  We went to the restaurant.  Both my husband and Ljubisa liked

24     whiskey.  I had a bottle somewhere hidden in the house, and I took it

25     with me.  We talked, had dinner, and stayed there until 11.00, 11.30 at

Page 24833

 1     night.

 2             It was then that Nada told me, "Do you know what happens

 3     tomorrow?"  I said, "No, not really."  Then she said, "My old man," as

 4     she used to refer to him, "is having his birthday tomorrow."  Then I

 5     said, "That's very nice.  We could see each other."  She said, "Well,

 6     we'll see what the circumstances will be."  First, they were to see his

 7     family, and then I invited them to come over to our house.  I said that I

 8     would invite another pair of friends, so that we could all sit down

 9     together and chat.

10        Q.   Thank you for that.  I'm going to try to digest it, and we'll try

11     to break it down a little more.  First, give me the name of the other

12     friend that you would invite, or friends, as you say.  What was their

13     names?

14        A.   Yes.  Svetlana Gavrilovic and Djordje Gavrilovic.

15        Q.   How long have you known Mr. and Mrs. Gavrilovic?

16        A.   I've known them for quite some time.  I know Svetlana from youth,

17     since our parents hailed from the same place, Curug.

18        Q.   I'm going to come back to the birthday celebration and the event,

19     both the evening when you went with you and your husband and then as well

20     as the next day when you went why the Gavrilovics and the Bearas.  Before

21     I do that, let's focus on Mr. Beara and his family.

22             Were you able, ma'am, having known and socialised with the Bearas

23     since approximately 1985 to observe his relationship, Mr. Ljubisa's

24     relationship, with his wife?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24834

 1        Q.   Share with us, having observed that, what type of a relationship

 2     it was?

 3        A.   Ljubisa and Nada Beara lived in their home in a normal way.  It

 4     was a normal marriage by any standard.

 5        Q.   I think by sometimes the translation the word may seem a little

 6     awkward.  I'm asking you to describe, if you know, your observations as

 7     to what type of a husband Mr. Beara was.  So you can tell me if he was

 8     kind, gentle, or if you thought he was abrupt, and as I'm sure --

 9        A.   Yes.  Ljubisa was a cultured gentleman, very attentive.  He would

10     bring small things as presents to make his wife happy.  They communicated

11     in a usual manner as any two partners in a civilised marriage would.

12        Q.   Were you able to observe his relationship with -- I know you

13     mentioned his younger son, and there is an age difference between his

14     eldest and younger one.  Where were you able to observe his relationship

15     and contact with his younger son?

16        A.   A normal relationship.  The usual relationship you would have

17     with a boy at that time.  He was 16, 17, 18 at the time.  He behaved

18     well, and his father did, too.

19        Q.   Tell me this:  Was he strict and/or a disciplinarian?

20        A.   No, he wasn't strict.

21        Q.   Let's go back to the July 1995.  I know you told us that you had

22     met with Nada and Ljubisa one evening and you went out to dinner; and at

23     that time, it was that Nada told you that the next day it was her

24     husband's birthday.

25             Did you ultimately, the next day, get together with the Bearas

Page 24835

 1     and the Gavrilovics.  Let me, just so it's easier for us to follow, we'll

 2     coin, if you don't mind, the evening you had dinner with just the Bearas

 3     as the first dinner; and then we'll call the next day that you went with

 4     the Bearas and the Gavrilovics as the second dinner, so that we don't get

 5     confused and overlapped, because even in my notes, I was sometimes

 6     unclear as to the times that you met them.

 7             In July of 1995, this second event or socialisation, did it

 8     occur?

 9        A.   Yes.  We met in our home with our friends the Gavrilovics and the

10     Bearas.  Ljubisa and Nada arrived around 8 p.m., Mr. Gavrilovic came

11     shortly afterwards, and Svetlana was a bit late.  She had some business

12     engagements and arrived a bit late.

13        Q.   How long did this dinner party last?

14        A.   The party lasted for some three, three and a half hours.  We

15     didn't take note of the time, but three, three and a half hours, I'd say.

16        Q.   Now, I know it happened a long time ago, Mrs. Cekic, but can you

17     help us have a better appreciation as to how you remember the year?  I

18     think you were starting to tell us at that time obviously the situation

19     in former Yugoslavia, but you tell us the year and you mentioned your

20     financial problems or issues that were going on with that.

21             But, if you can tell us, how do you remember that it was 1995?

22        A.   I remember because that year we had no money to go on vacation or

23     to buy ourselves anything nice.  By that time Toma had lost a company,

24     then he was out of work altogether.  I was the only breadwinner.  We were

25     going through some hard times in Serbia.

Page 24836

 1        Q.   Do you have any doubt, Mrs. Cekic, that you are correct on the

 2     year that when you got together with the Bearas and the Gavrilovics in

 3     either the first or the second engagement or party?

 4        A.   No, I have no doubt.

 5        Q.   I know it's difficult to always testify.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think at this point I just want to check with

 7     Mr. Nikolic, but I think I'll have no further questions, if the Court

 8     just permits me to check, then I'll have the Court ...

 9             Mr. President, I think that we have no further questions of

10     Mrs. Cekic at this time.

11             I'm just told that there's a -- I'm sorry, that just a spelling

12     of "Gavrilovic" is wrong on page 50, line 1, so to the extent that the

13     Court will take note of that.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  That will be taken care of.

15             Mr. Zivanovic.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'm not going to cross-examine this witness, Your

17     Honour.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

19             Ms. Nikolic.

20             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions for the witness.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Lazarevic, you already signified.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  We don't have any questions for this witness,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

Page 24837

 1             Ms. Fauveau, you asked for ten minutes.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Krkvic, no cross?

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  We don't have questions, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa.

 7             MR. SARAPA:  No questions.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 9             So it's back to you, Mr. Thayer.

10             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

12        Q.   Good afternoon, ma'am.

13        A.   Good afternoon.

14        Q.   My name is a Nelson Thayer, and I'll be asking you some questions

15     on behalf of the Prosecution.

16             How would you describe your current friendship with Svetlana

17     Gavrilovic?

18        A.   Since I have known her since my early youth, as I said, we are

19     good friends.  We still see each other, speak on the phone.  She is a

20     beautician, and sometimes I visit her for treatment.  Sometimes she comes

21     over to my house.  That would be the extent of it.  We sometimes go to

22     the theatre or to the movies.  That would be the long and short of it.

23        Q.   And if I understand your testimony correctly, you were and have

24     been good friends with Ms. Gavrilovic before you met either of the

25     Bearas; is that correct?

Page 24838

 1        A.   Yes.  I have known her since before that time.

 2        Q.   And it sounds like you became fast friends with Nada Beara.  You

 3     described speaking to her on the phone once, twice a week, and

 4     socialising on the weekends, is that fair to say?

 5        A.   Yes, that is correct.  It goes back to the relationship they had

 6     with my late husband, since Nada Beara was his boss.  It goes back to

 7     that time.  We merely kept it going afterwards, after Nada arrived in

 8     Belgrade with her younger son, Branco.

 9        Q.   Understood.  And, ma'am, if you see me looking away, I'm not

10     being rude.  I sometimes have to check the transcript just to make sure

11     everything is getting done properly, okay?

12             So, no doubt, you've been to the Bearas' house.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you estimate for the Trial Chamber about how many times you

15     think you visited with them at the Bearas' house?

16        A.   Well, sometimes, during a week, I would go to see them; then on

17     another occasion, ten days would past without seeing them; and as Nada

18     pointed it out, rightfully, I am the younger one and I am supposed to

19     come see them more often.  On the other hand, when she has time on her

20     hands, she comes over to our house.  I can't tell you precisely whether

21     it's within any given week or two weeks, but every week we speak on the

22     phone at least once or twice.  When we have some spare time, then we see

23     each other as well.

24        Q.   And how many birthday parties have you attended of a member of

25     the Beara family?

Page 24839

 1        A.   Well, no one insisted on any birthday parties.  We simply wanted

 2     to spend some comfortable time together, and the birthdays were merely an

 3     excuse, of sorts, to get together, to have a meal, a drink, to the extent

 4     we could afford.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I understand what you are saying.  The birthday was

 6     somewhat secondary to the social occasion, is that a fair

 7     characterization?

 8        A.   I don't understand.

 9        Q.   The fact that it might have been somebody's birthday was not the

10     primary reason for the get-together, if I understand your testimony; it

11     was more just to get people together?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   Don't worry, I'm not going to hold you to any numbers, but can

14     you estimate for the Trial Chamber, as best as you can remember, on how

15     many of these occasions when you got together with the Bearas was it --

16     did it happen to be somebody's birthday in the Beara family?

17        A.   Well, you know, as I said, that the birthdays were sort of

18     secondary, but we preferred to see each other when Ljubisa was there

19     after his returns from Republika Srpska.  We preferred to see each other

20     then, to sit down, have a chat as real friends.  Little Branco was a boy

21     at the time, and he didn't celebrate his birthdays with us.  He would go

22     out with his friends to the movies or an ice cream parlour.

23             In any case, Nada knew to bake good cakes, and she would invite

24     us to come over when Ljubisa was there to market in a certain way.

25        Q.   Okay.  Well, other than the events that you testified about in

Page 24840

 1     answer to my friend's questions, can you provide any idea to the Trial

 2     Chamber, any idea at all, on how many other occasions you attended a

 3     birthday party or a gathering which happened to fall on the same day or

 4     on which somebody was celebrating a birthday in the Beara family?

 5        A.   Well, I didn't fully comprehend what you mean by "on the same

 6     day."

 7        Q.   Well, sometimes, when a person celebrates their birthday, for

 8     whatever reason they can't celebrate it on the actual date of their

 9     birthday, either because of work obligations or the day of the week on

10     which the birthday happens to fall.  Sometimes we can't celebrate even if

11     we want to our birthday on the actual date of the birthday?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   So my question simply is:  Can you give the Trial Chamber any

14     idea on how many occasions when you were socialising with the Bearas, you

15     understood that occasion to be in celebration of the birthday of any

16     member of the Beara family?  That's all I'm asking.

17        A.   Well, I couldn't tell you precisely.  Whenever we met, it was the

18     reason for us to get together either because Ljubisa was there, either

19     because it was somebody's birthday.  Nada, of course, didn't want for her

20     own reasons to tell us when her birthday was, understandably, but the

21     purpose was for us to get together as true friends do.

22        Q.   So I take it, ma'am, that the answer is no, you can't answer my

23     question?  You can't give the Court any idea how many occasions you

24     recall attending some kind of celebration at the Bearas that happened to

25     be in connection with a Beara family member's birthday?

Page 24841

 1        A.   Well, as I told you, in 1995 we celebrated -- or, actually, I

 2     invited Ljubisa and Nada to attend my birthday, but I just didn't

 3     celebrate it as a birthday.  It was just a reason for us to get together.

 4     I think it's more appropriate for younger people to celebrate their

 5     birthdays.

 6             So we got together in July when Ljubisa was in Belgrade.  That

 7     was the day when we went to the restaurant; and then Nada reminded me

 8     that on the following day, which was I think the 14th of July -- because

 9     this is what she told me otherwise I wouldn't have known.  And then on

10     the evening of the following day, we got together at our place.  And then

11     after that, perhaps a month or two later, we saw each other again, but we

12     didn't insist on it being somebody's birthday.

13        Q.   And do I understand your testimony correctly, ma'am, and I

14     understand why somebody might not want to let on exactly what year one

15     was born or exactly how many years old someone is, but is it my

16     understanding that you did not and do not know what the date of Nada

17     Beara's birthday is?  Putting the year to the side, is it your testimony

18     that you don't know what her actual day and month of birth is?

19        A.   Well, we are friends, we see each other, we speak on the phone,

20     but I never inquired about her date of birth.  I do know, however, that

21     she was born in 1938 or 1939, but I don't know the date.

22        Q.   Ma'am, you just referred to the precise date of July 14th, and I

23     think you just said that that was -- you recall that that was told to you

24     by Nada Beara.  I note that when my friend was asking you questions, it

25     was quite clear during your testimony just a few minutes ago, that you

Page 24842

 1     didn't know the exact date of Mr. Beara's birthday.

 2             Is that the case, or --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  One moment before you answer.

 4             Mr. Ostojic.

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  I object to the form of the question, Your Honour,

 6     and I think it mischaracterizes it.  We just didn't want to lead

 7     specifically on that point.  I don't think he is characterizing it

 8     properly that she didn't know the date during my --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let her answer the question in any case.  I think

10     it can be solved easily that way.

11             Yes, madam.  Madam Cekic, look at me.  Can you answer the

12     question?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand.  Can you

14     please repeat it.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  It's a very simple question.  At the time,

16     were you aware of Mr. Beara's date of birth, or birthday anyway?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we got together on that first

18     evening while we were sitting and chatting, or rather, when it was time

19     for us to go home, Nada told us that Nada's birthday was the next day and

20     that's when she told me the date; otherwise, I wouldn't have known.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think there is a confusion here.

22             Nada told you that Ljubisa's birthday was the next day, not her

23     birthday; is that correct?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Ljubisa's birthday; not hers.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  We can proceed.

Page 24843

 1             That's what you wanted to point out, I suppose, Mr. Ostojic?

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 4             MR. THAYER:

 5        Q.   So, ma'am, my question is:  Why didn't you testify to that effect

 6     a few minutes ago?  Instead of Mr. Ostojic having to talk about a dinner

 7     on one day and a dinner on another day, why didn't you just tell the

 8     court what day it was during the course of your testimony and direct

 9     examination?  That's my question.

10        A.   While Mr. Ostojic was questioning me, either I didn't understand

11     him or he didn't ask me specifically to tell him the date, as you did

12     just now.

13        Q.   And we'll get back to the date issue in a little while, ma'am.

14             When was the last time you spoke -- spoke with or saw Nada Beara.

15        A.   The last time I saw Nada Beara was last Saturday.

16        Q.   And what kind of an occasion or meeting was that?

17        A.   That was on the occasion of the meeting with Mr. Ostojic and some

18     other people who I didn't know.  There was Svetlana and Nada and I there,

19     and we went for lunch to a restaurant.

20        Q.   So it sounds like it was clear to Nada Beara that you were going

21     to be coming here to testify, is that fair to say?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And did you have any conversations with Nada Beara about the fact

24     that you were going to be coming to The Hague to testify as a witness on

25     behalf of her husband?

Page 24844

 1        A.   That is all that we told her, and we didn't discuss this any

 2     further because this was not the topic of our conversation.  We talked

 3     about something completely different.  She didn't want to discuss our

 4     trip here.

 5        Q.   And was it also clear to you that Nada Beara understood that

 6     Svetlana Gavrilovic was also going to be coming to The Hague to testify

 7     as you were?

 8        A.   I believe that she didn't realise it immediately.  It probably

 9     took a couple of days for her to realize that, and she was, to put it

10     simply, surprised.

11        Q.   And when was the last time you spoke with Ljubisa Beara?

12        A.   The last time I saw Ljubisa was in 2001 when we attended the

13     church memorial service for my late husband.  We met at the cemetery.

14        Q.   And when was the last time you had any conversation with Ljubisa

15     Beara, if it wasn't in person at this 2001 memorial service?

16        A.   I didn't speak to him.

17        Q.   I am sorry.  That was an inartful question I just asked.  I'll

18     ask it a little more simply.  Did you ever speak to Mr. Beara after the

19     2001 memorial service for your husband, even if you might not have seen

20     him in person?

21        A.   Yes, yes.  I spoke with him.

22        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall what year that might have been when you

23     spoke with him, and let's -- I am sorry to use the memorial service of

24     your husband as a sort of as a marker, but if you could estimate for the

25     Trial Chamber how long after that you spoke with Mr. Beara.

Page 24845

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             If I could just direct my learned friends's attention to line 8,

 4     at page 59, I think that is where he might have a confusion, because he

 5     is asking now after -- that question has the word "before," and if he

 6     could just clarify it, so that we could fully appreciate the testimony.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 8             Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

 9             MR. THAYER:  I think my last question will help clarify that, I

10     think.

11        Q.   I can repeat it for you, ma'am.

12             Following the memorial service for your husband in 2001, when do

13     you recall speaking with Ljubisa Beara?

14        A.   Well, we met in the year 2000 while my husband was still alive;

15     that was in the month of June.  We went to visit Ljubisa and Nada.

16     Ljubisa always liked to surprise us and organise a barbecue, because he

17     had been living for a many years in Split and he used to speak in the

18     Split dialect.  We discussed a variety of things, health, doctors, and

19     things like that.  And that was the topic of our conversation, that

20     Bozinovic was already sick, that he should see a doctor, and shortly

21     afterwards my husband died.

22        Q.   And last question on this topic before we break:  After the

23     memorial service for your husband in 2001, when did you speak with

24     Ljubisa Beara next?

25        A.   I think I saw him six months or a year later, but very briefly.

Page 24846

 1     I was passing by their apartment building, I had spoken on the phone to

 2     Nada, I inquired about him, and she said, "If you would like, drop by for

 3     a coffee."  But I stayed very short.  Because it was in the morning, I

 4     had to go back to work.  So it was a brief encounter, just for a coffee.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Should we have the break now.  25 minutes.  Thank

 6     you.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

10             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Good afternoon, ma'am.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13        Q.   Just a couple of more questions on the subject that we left off

14     with.  When or what was the date of your husband's memorial service in

15     2001?

16        A.   On the 8th of July.

17        Q.   So you think it may have been six months or even a year after

18     that that you saw Ljubisa Beara again in person?

19        A.   Yes, after 2001, perhaps in the summertime for early autumn.

20        Q.   So that would have been of 2002, ma'am; is that correct?

21        A.   No, in 2001, after the memorial service; sometime after that.

22        Q.   Okay.  Before we broke, you testified that, "I think I saw him

23     six months or a year later," and that was the brief encounter that you

24     told us about.  I'm asking about that time.  So if --

25        A.   Oh, yes, yes, yes.  I didn't understand you correctly.  Yes, that

Page 24847

 1     is correct.  In the summer or autumn of 2002.  I do apologise, I didn't

 2     get your meaning right.

 3        Q.   When was the last time that you recall seeing Mr. Beara in

 4     person?

 5        A.   Well, it so happened at that time of that year it was very brief.

 6     I just came to see them, we just sat for a short while, chatted, had

 7     coffee, and I left.

 8        Q.   And just to be clear, is this -- are you talking about this time

 9     in the summer or autumn of 2002, or is this sometime that you saw

10     Mr. Beara after that?  That's what I'm trying to find out.

11        A.   In the summer or early autumn of that year, that year.

12        Q.   So, after this time that you saw him in the summer or autumn of

13     2002, after that, when was the last time you saw Mr. Beara?

14        A.   I didn't see him again.

15        Q.   I want to turn your attention, ma'am, to the first dinner that

16     you spoke to my friend about in Belgrade.  Is it fair to say, based on

17     your testimony, that that first dinner was planned or organised that very

18     same day?

19        A.   Yes, on that same day, when my late husband spoke to Ljubisa on

20     the phone and they agreed to -- for us to meet that evening at that

21     restaurant.

22        Q.   And who chose the restaurant, ma'am?

23        A.   It was my late husband's choice.  It's a small, cosy tavern, as

24     we call it, in our neighbourhood, and it's called Cuburska Lipa.  It's

25     close to our home in the neighbourhood where we live, or rather, where I

Page 24848

 1     now live, because my husband is gone.

 2        Q.   And this wasn't your first time there, was it?

 3        A.   No.  That was our first time because Ljubisa didn't want to go to

 4     restaurants or pubs, and we used to meet in our respective houses

 5     whenever we met.  This was the first time that he agreed to go out with

 6     my late husband and myself.

 7        Q.   Okay.  But my question was:  Was this the first time that you had

 8     ever been to this restaurant?

 9        A.   No, no.  My husband frequented this restaurant quite a lot, and I

10     also went there whenever I had time.

11        Q.   And it's a fairly well known restaurant, would you say, in

12     Belgrade?

13        A.   Yes, yes, it is.

14        Q.   And did you have to make reservations, do you recall?

15        A.   No.  We didn't because my husband knew the proprietor and the

16     staff working in the restaurant.

17        Q.   And what was the proprietor's name, ma'am?

18        A.   His name was Buda Koprivica, but I think he has leased this

19     restaurant since.  At the time, he also rented -- or it was rented by Mr.

20     Raicko, I think he was called, because he was in boxing and my husband

21     used to be involved in boxing at some previous time, and that is how they

22     knew each other.

23        Q.   So it sounds like, in addition to maybe liking the atmosphere and

24     the food, your husband had some kind of relationship with the people that

25     ran or owned this restaurant; is that correct?

Page 24849

 1        A.   Yes, because he was originally from that neighbourhood, which is

 2     called Stara Cubura.  He grew up there and was living there and, more or

 3     less, all the people knew each other, especially if you go to a

 4     restaurant where everybody knows everybody.

 5        Q.   And how did the two couples go to the restaurant?  Did you go

 6     together, yourself and your husband together and then you met the Bearas

 7     there; or did you all meet somewhere and go to the restaurant all four of

 8     you together?  Can you just tell the Court how you got to the restaurant?

 9        A.   My husband and I left our home and we waited for Ljubisa and Nada

10     at the entrance to the restaurant.

11        Q.   And I take it this was a full dinner.  You had dinner, not just

12     drinks.  It lasted, you said, until 11.30 p.m.; is that correct?

13        A.   [No audible response]

14        Q.   And what did you -- I'm sorry.  We just need an audible answer on

15     the record.  Can you just say "yes" or "no" so that the transcript can

16     pick it up.

17             You had an actual dinner; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you talked about during the

20     course of this dinner, the four of you?

21        A.   We talked about our families, our children, what they were doing,

22     where they were, how their school was.  We talked about lack of

23     employment and the difficult situation in the country.  Of course, we

24     talked about health because we were already at the age when people suffer

25     from high blood pressure, headaches, and things, what medication we used,

Page 24850

 1     et cetera.  So this is what we talked about.

 2        Q.   Did you talk about any of the military developments in the -- in

 3     Bosnia?

 4        A.   No.  Ljubisa never wanted to talk about anything relating to what

 5     was going on in Bosnia, at least when I and his wife were present.

 6     However, whether he discussed these issues with my late husband as man to

 7     man, I cannot tell you that because I was not present.

 8        Q.   So it's your testimony that the topic of the takeover of the

 9     Srebrenica enclave never came up during this dinner; is that correct?

10        A.   No, we didn't talk about it.

11        Q.   And, again, I know it's a little while ago, but do you recall who

12     paid and how the dinner was paid for; cash, credit card?

13        A.   The dinner was paid by my late husband in cash because at that

14     time we didn't have any credit cards.

15        Q.   And when did you first find out that Mr. Beara was in Belgrade?

16        A.   I don't understand.  Are you asking me about that particular day

17     or the period before that?

18        Q.   Well, during this period of time, talking about the first dinner

19     and the second dinner, during that period of time, when did you first

20     learn that Mr. Beara was in Belgrade or in the area, when did you first

21     find out?

22        A.   On the day when we met in the restaurant, sometime around noon

23     when Ljubisa was home, he called my husband and they agreed for us to get

24     together that very same evening in the restaurant.

25        Q.   So, during this dinner, did you all four of you stay together at

Page 24851

 1     your table, did the menfolk retire somewhere separate, or did anybody

 2     stay together for the entire time you were at dinner?

 3        A.   Throughout the time, the four of us were together at the same

 4     table.  We talked, chatted, the men did not separate themselves from us.

 5        Q.   Now, ma'am, you referred to a party of some kind during the

 6     day -- the next day during your testimony.  Can you tell us a little bit

 7     more about what that was?

 8        A.   When we assembled the next day, it was in our home.  The

 9     Gavrilovics were there, as well as Nada and Ljubisa Beara, and myself and

10     my husband.  We also talked about everything.  Djordje wanted to ask

11     Ljubisa a bit more about what was going on in Bosnia, but in that company

12     he didn't want to talk about such issues.

13             We talked about Djordje and Svetlana separating their 25th year

14     of marriage.  They wanted to travel, but were short of money.  We were

15     joking about them leaving on the Orient Express and then Ljubisa said,

16     "Well, it seems I'll have to take you by your hands to take to you the

17     train station and at least you can look at the train."  That was the tone

18     of the evening.

19        Q.   Okay.  We'll get to the second dinner in a second, but I was

20     asking you about whether there was some event that the Bearas hosted

21     during that day, during the day of your second dinner with the Bearas.

22     Were you aware of some birthday related event that day?

23        A.   Well, I chatted with Nada and she told me -- well, during the

24     lunch, members of their families were there and their children.  She told

25     me that she prepared something for the occasion.  She also told me that

Page 24852

 1     they had that lunch with the rest of the family in the house.

 2        Q.   And were you invited to that lunch?

 3        A.   No.  We were not, since we had arranged that we would see each

 4     other in the evening at our home together with the Gavrilovics so that we

 5     could hang out.  I had also prepared some food, cakes.  We planned to

 6     spend that time together.

 7        Q.   So, when they came over on that second night, was that an actual

 8     dinner that you hosted at your home that the Bearas attended, or was it

 9     more just light fare and drinks?

10        A.   There were drinks.  I had prepared a cheese pie, cakes, there was

11     also some salami.  Not a dinner per se, but what was customary under the

12     circumstances.

13        Q.   And you just told us that there was some discussion about the

14     Orient Express, and Mr. and Mrs. Gavrilovic celebrating their 25th

15     anniversary.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber a little bit more about that

16     conversation, please.

17        A.   Well, you know, we talked about that.  There may have been some

18     other topics.  Occasionally, I went to the kitchen to bring some more

19     food to the table or drinks.  I couldn't participate in the conversation

20     throughout, but that was one of the topics we were joking about.  Nothing

21     in particular.  We were all complaining of being short of cash, we were

22     saying to each other that we wanted to travel, go and do things, but

23     that's what the situation was like at the time.

24        Q.   And in particular regarding this Orient Express topic, what else

25     can you tell Trial Chamber about the Orient Express coming up as a matter

Page 24853

 1     of conversation, as much detail as you can remember as you sit here

 2     today, ma'am?

 3        A.   Well, Svetlana and Djordje had probably talked about that.  They

 4     fantasised about going on that travel, to see some parts of the world and

 5     other cities outside the country, but they couldn't because of their

 6     finances.  As I told you, I didn't participate extensively in that

 7     discussion because I kept going back and forth between the living-room

 8     and the kitchen bringing food and drinks.  I can't recall off the cuff

 9     any particular details.  That's what I can tell you right now.

10        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber why?  Do you have any idea why

11     that part of the conversation stands out in your mind among other topics

12     that were discussed?

13        A.   Because we were laughing out loud and it simply sticks out.  The

14     idea seemed funny to travel on board the Orient Express.  It was out of

15     the ordinary for a couple to be able to afford.  To go to another city or

16     to the seaside, that would have been a bit more simple; but this was a

17     bit out of the ordinary, that's why I can recall it.

18        Q.   And, ma'am, are you familiar with a restaurant by the name of the

19     Balkan Express restaurant?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  And that's in the Zemun - I'm sorry if I'm not pronouncing

22     that right - neighbourhood of Belgrade; is that correct?

23        A.   I guess so; although, I don't know too much about the restaurants

24     or where they are.  But if you say so, I believe you.  I've heard of the

25     restaurant, but I can't tell you precisely where it is.

Page 24854

 1        Q.   And have you heard that this restaurant actually consists of an

 2     old fashioned train car or train wagon that's been turned into a

 3     restaurant?  Is that why that restaurant sticks out in your mind a little

 4     bit?

 5        A.   Yes, I've heard about that.

 6        Q.   And do you remember during the course of this second dinner, or

 7     maybe even during the course of the first dinner, do you remember during

 8     the joking about the Orient Express, do you remember somebody saying

 9     something to the effect of, "Well, there's this new restaurant that looks

10     like a train car.  Since you can't go on the real Orient Express, maybe

11     you could go have dinner in the train car"?  Do you remember any

12     conversation or discussion along those lines?

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  Sorry to interject, but I think the question is --

15     I'll object to the form.  It's misleading, actually.  I don't want to say

16     it in front of the witness, in fairness to my learned friend --

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think you should stop and let the witness answer

18     the question.

19             Yes, Madam Cekic, can you answer the question, please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I heard it being mentioned

21     that evening, the Orient Express and the train car.

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   The train car restaurant you are referring to?

24        A.   Yes, I mean the restaurant.

25        Q.   I know this is going back, but can you recall who came up with

Page 24855

 1     the joke about the train car restaurant?  If you don't remember, that's

 2     fine; if you remember, please share that with the Trial Chamber?

 3        A.   I don't remember.  As I said a moment ago, I was going in and out

 4     of the room where we were, going back to the kitchen to bring out drinks

 5     and food.  Maybe I was absent at that very moment when someone said it.

 6     Perhaps it was one of the Gavrilovics.

 7             MR. THAYER:  With the Court's indulgence, for just one moment,

 8     please.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Sorry for that interruption.

11             In the meantime, we were waiting for you, Mr. Thayer.

12             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Ma'am, would it surprise you to know that this restaurant, the

14     train car restaurant, didn't open until 1998?

15        A.   I'm telling you that I have never been to the restaurant.  I

16     don't know where it is.  I only know that it exists.  I don't know as of

17     when and what year, therefore, I can't tell you any more about it.  I

18     don't know.

19             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  If we may have 65 ter 3629, please.

20        Q.   Now, ma'am, I'm just going to show you a couple of pages of a

21     report that was just done today based on some very, very recent

22     information that we learned.

23             MR. THAYER:  And if we could go to page 6 of the document.

24        Q.   I know you testified that you don't think you've ever been to

25     this place before, but I just want to show you this photograph and see

Page 24856

 1     whether in all your travels during the city, whether this looks familiar

 2     to you, this location.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  I hate to interrupt, but I think we should look at

 4     her answer on line 21, page 69, and I would have an objection to the

 5     question as he put it.  I think the witness was clear as to whether or

 6     not she was at the restaurant.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  But not having been to the restaurant is one thing;

 8     not having seen it either in a photo or passing by, I mean, is another.

 9     So the question is perfectly valid, unless my colleagues disagree with

10     me.

11             MR. OSTOJIC:  With all due respect Mr. President, if you can read

12     the question that is put, and I'll agree if you want to -- if he wants to

13     ask that.  He says, specifically -- I don't want to read it because I

14     don't want to be unfair, but he says:  Have you been to the place?

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but not having been to the place.  I haven't

16     been to many restaurants including some here in The Hague, but it doesn't

17     mean I never seen them, I don't know where they are, or how they look

18     like from the outside, or whether I would be able to distinguish them or

19     not.  That's the whole thing.

20             Go ahead, Madam Cekic, please, if you could answer the

21     question -- or rather, if you could finish your question, actually,

22     Mr. Thayer.

23             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Ma'am, my question was very simple as Mr. President stated.

25     Looking at that photograph, based on living in Belgrade and your travels

Page 24857

 1     throughout Belgrade, do you recall ever seeing this building before?

 2        A.   No.  I have never seen it and I have never passed by it.

 3        Q.   Now, ma'am, we spoke with someone at the restaurant today and the

 4     name of the restaurant is Balkan Ekpres, and we are told that it opened

 5     as a restaurant in 1998.

 6             MR. THAYER:  And if we can look at page 2 of this document,

 7     please.

 8        Q.   This is a page from the website of this restaurant, and do you

 9     see this page that has Balkan Ekspres at the top?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   And what does the line under that read?  What does "osnovan"

12     mean, ma'am?

13        A.   I can't tell you.  I don't know whether it means that it was when

14     it was constructed or whether they opened that year.  I really don't

15     know.  I can only tell you that I never went in, I never passed by it.

16     You did say that I live in Belgrade and one would presume that I might

17     have knowledge about it, but I never went down that street by that

18     restaurant.

19        Q.   Well, my question now is really again very simple.  Having heard

20     that someone at the restaurant just today told us that it opened as a

21     restaurant in 1998, and having seen this page here, isn't it the case,

22     ma'am, that you are thinking about a different occasion when you all got

23     together with the Bearas and the Gavrilovics, when you got together for

24     some occasion that this topic about the Orient Express came out?

25        A.   No, it was not on another occasion

Page 24858

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             MR. THAYER:

 3        Q.   And, again, during this second dinner --

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer, please go ahead.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   And, again, during this second dinner, ma'am, at your home, did

 8     everyone stay together in one room during the entire get-together?

 9        A.   Yes, we were all in the same room.

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Beara being here in The Hague must have been the subject

11     of a fair amount of discussion among you, Ms. Gavrilovic, and Nada Beara,

12     is that fair to say?

13        A.   You are referring to the last time we saw each other or over a

14     period of time when we would see each other, whether we discussed

15     Ljubisa.

16        Q.   Let me ask a better question.  I apologise, that was a terrible

17     question.

18             The fact that Mr. Beara had been arrested and brought to The

19     Hague, and that he has been here for some time, that, no doubt, was the

20     subject of conversations, discussions among yourself, Ms. Gavrilovic, and

21     Nada Beara; is that fair to say?  That's only natural?

22        A.   Your question is a natural one, but we always asked about

23     Ljubisa's health, what he looked like, what the conditions here are.  As

24     for any other stories as to why and how, we didn't talk about that.  We

25     didn't touch upon such topics.

Page 24859

 1        Q.   To your knowledge, was Nada Beara following the trial?  Has she

 2     been following the trial either on line on the computer or through

 3     newspapers or through word of mouth?

 4        A.   I don't know that.  When I see her, we don't talk about it.  I

 5     only ask her about Ljubisa's health and whether he has been calling.

 6     That's it.

 7        Q.   And how about yourself, ma'am, have you followed this trial at

 8     all, or have you taken any time to find out anything about what this case

 9     is all about?

10        A.   I wasn't following Ljubisa's trial.  I don't know what it is

11     about.  I am not informed of such things.  Occasionally, on television, I

12     could see some footage from the courtroom, and that's it.  I see a thing

13     here, there, in the press or on TV.  That's the extent of me being

14     informed.

15        Q.   How about when Mr. Beara was indicted, or when his indictment was

16     made public, I should say, in October of 2002, certainly that was a time

17     when that topic was discussed amongst yourselves; do you recall that?

18        A.   I did not discuss that topic with Nada, but I read about it in

19     the press.  It was in the newspapers.

20        Q.   Who did you discuss that topic with, ma'am, when the indictment

21     against Mr. Beara was unsealed?

22        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, I don't even know when it was.

23        Q.   How about when he was taken into custody and brought to The

24     Hague, do you recall that occasion?

25        A.   Yes, I do.  It was televised.  Shortly before the end of the

Page 24860

 1     foot, I managed to see Ljubisa.  I think it was our justice minister who

 2     was there and some other people when they reached the airport.  That's

 3     what was broadcast on TV.

 4        Q.   And do you recall when that happened?

 5        A.   It must have been some three and a half years ago, more or less.

 6        Q.   So somewhere around 2004, 2005?

 7        A.   I think -- well, if it's three and a half years ago, then it was

 8     sometime in mid-2004.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I see that we are nearing the end of

10     our time.  I'm about to change topics and I think I'll need a little bit

11     more time tomorrow morning, but I will definitely finish well before the

12     end of the first session.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

14             I think the witness can leave the courtroom.  Madam, we haven't

15     finished with you, we still need you.  Tomorrow, you will be here for a

16     short relatively short time, and then you are free to go.

17             Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  Can you just remind her not to talk to anyone.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  It is very important, in fact, that between

20     now and tomorrow, madam, you must not discuss or talk to anyone about

21     what you have been testifying here.  It's very important.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  As you may have noticed, we have been discussing,

Page 24861

 1     and possibly you may also have anticipated what weave been discussing.

 2     We want Mrs. Gavrilovic back here tomorrow morning.  She is still in the

 3     Netherlands.  She won't be travelling until tomorrow in the afternoon,

 4     mid-afternoon.  So we need her in the morning here.  And tomorrow, of

 5     course, we will continue and finish with this witness.

 6             Thank you and have a nice afternoon.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.

 8                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 29th day of

 9                           August, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.