Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24862

 1                           Friday, 29 August 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 7     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  All the accused are here.  From the

 9     Defence teams, I only notice the absence of Mr. Haynes.  Prosecution,

10     it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer and Mr. Vanderpuye.

11             All right.  Is there a reason why the witness is not in the

12     courtroom as yet?  Are there preliminaries?  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

14     Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

15             We did want to raise one preliminary with the Trial Chamber.

16     Things have -- got a little interesting yesterday and since, and I'm

17     going to sort of work with my colleagues here.  I'm sure if I'm entering

18     into areas that they're not comfortable with me raising with the Trial

19     Chamber, they'll let me know.  But out of an abundance of caution, given

20     the Court's decision to call back the prior witness, given some further

21     investigation that was conducted in light of what that witness testified

22     to, that investigation also being conducted after the court session

23     yesterday, we developed some additional evidence.

24             So one of the things we want to do is get an idea from the Trial

25     Chamber just generally what the procedure will be and also to advise the

Page 24863

 1     Trial Chamber what -- frankly how I intend to proceed with the

 2     cross-examination of the witness upon some of this new information just

 3     so that there's no mystery.

 4             I've CC'd the Trial Chamber's legal officers last night with

 5     respect to the new investigation which was conducted with respect to this

 6     issue.  I do not know whether this new issue is something that is of

 7     interest to the Trial Chamber with respect to recalling the witness.

 8     That is why I went ahead and forwarded it to the legal officers.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer, sorry to interrupt you like this, which

10     is not exactly our style, but if -- there seems to be a mysterious shroud

11     before you started your intervention.  It has certainly become much more

12     obscure and cloudy.  We don't know what you are talking about.  We have

13     not had any communication from our senior legal officer.  The only

14     information, additional information that we have is that there is an

15     addition to your list of exhibits.  That is the only thing that we know,

16     something that has to do with the Hotel Fontana, but that's about it.

17     Otherwise, we have no further information.  We don't even know --

18     although I have had my usual morning meeting with our senior legal

19     officer, he hasn't even informed me that he received anything from you.

20             So what I suggest, I don't know, because there is another tale to

21     it.  It seems, if I'm reading you well, that you would like some time to

22     have a word with your counterpart, with Mr. Ostojic, if I understood you

23     well.

24             MR. THAYER:  I frankly don't think that's necessary.  I mean,

25     I'll be happy to hear from my friend.  I think the Prosecution's position

Page 24864

 1     is pretty clear from the supplemental information report that we

 2     disclosed last night.  But I'm happy, as I said, to advise all parties

 3     where I intend to proceed with the cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  We have no clue as to where you are heading.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Okay.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, but Mr. Ostojic, would you like the floor?

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  If I may, I'm not sure if he is completed.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, yeah, of course.  By all means.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  It's just not true

10     what he says.  I sent him an e-mail.  He knows that this Trial Chamber is

11     very interested in this topic.  It's disingenuous to suggest and to keep

12     playing these games.  He knows what his investigator did was wrong, and

13     he should tell the Court that right now, and I wrote him an e-mail what I

14     thought he should do this morning to the Court, to the witnesses, and to

15     all the lawyers here.  He knows about the Orient Express restaurant.

16     It's a long-standing restaurant.  He has pictures of it.  He sees

17     plainly, clearly on its face where it's written, when it was first

18     established.  He asked the question yesterday that mischaracterized the

19     facts by using the word "this new restaurant."  I objected and I was

20     rejected by this Court on that objection.  That's misleading.  The 1988

21     restaurant was not new.  The Orient Express at Victoria Station, which is

22     new Belgrade, which is what both witnesses have said, was in existence in

23     1993.  They had that.  I want their investigator here so that I could

24     query whether or not he investigated it thoroughly like their other

25     investigators or whether he uncovered this supposedly at 3 o'clock after

Page 24865

 1     our hearing.  He shouldn't have been allowed to ask that question under

 2     any circumstances.  The witness was able to say what she did on the

 3     transcript.  You're invited to look at it.  Mr. Gavrilovic told us

 4     yesterday, new Belgrade is where this restaurants is, not Zemun.  He

 5     should bring a map on not tell us in e-mail that these are neighbourhoods

 6     next to each other.  They're not neighbourhoods.  They're far away from

 7     each other, Zemun and new Belgrade.  He knows that.  It's disingenuous,

 8     it's disrespectful, and quite frankly, it's dishonest.  I'm offended.  If

 9     it continues, I am going to withdraw from this case.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, by way of an exception to the

11     rule, we are giving you the floor.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  And I object to the exception as well.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, and I am not speaking for

15     anyone but myself on this.  This kind of conduct must stop.

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm not going to listen to this.  I'm not.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  I know, but he --

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  He has an -- he doesn't need to attack me.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic, please.  Please.  You may be able to

20     do and behave like this in Chicago but not here, so please sit down

21     and --

22             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm going to make my record, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please sit down.  Please sit down.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  If he has a problem with my conduct, he can bring

25     it with the --

Page 24866

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic, please sit down, and you will have the

 2     floor when the Trial Chamber gives it to you.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  So Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  When I say this, Your Honour, I will say it

 6     briefly, the conduct attacking the honesty of the Prosecution must stop,

 7     and that's all I want to say.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  But do you have an explanation, Mr. Thayer, please?

 9             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Your Honour.  This was what I was trying

10     to accomplish with the Court was to let the Court know what happened

11     yesterday afternoon to place in context what I'm going to do on

12     cross-examination with this witness.  And my concern was that that might

13     be related to the Court's decision to bring back Gavrilovic, so I didn't

14     want anybody to be taken by surprise if the Court had in mind certain

15     avenues it wanted to pursue with this witness.

16             What we did yesterday was follow up on some information that I

17     received in the middle of my cross-examination of the current witness.

18     The Court will recall that the prior witness, Ms. Gavrilovic, at page

19     24762 of the transcript, referred for the first time anywhere to the -

20     and I'm quoting here - "Newly opened restaurant in new Belgrade that

21     looks like a carriage of the Orient Express train.  I remember that

22     remark of his very well..." referring to the husband of the current

23     witness.

24             She then returned to this recollection of hers upon further

25     cross-examination.  By the way, she made the prior comment, I believe, on

Page 24867

 1     direct examination, and then she returned to that comment upon

 2     cross-examination yesterday morning at page 24787 of the transcript.  She

 3     did remember because Toma her husband was making jokes about her failed

 4     trip on the Orient Express by saying that "there was a newly opened

 5     restaurant in our city named the Orient Express and it's decorated in the

 6     same way, and he told us to go there and imagine that we were on the

 7     trip."  Again, this was new information that we had never received before

 8     that surfaced during the course, first, of the direct examination of the

 9     witness and then during Mr. McCloskey's cross.

10             So yesterday during my cross-examination one of the investigators

11     looked into Express, Orient Express, and what he came up with was Balkan

12     Express and the information with which I cross-examined this witness

13     yesterday pretty much on the fly.

14             Following the Court session, we made further inquiries to see

15     whether there per chance may have been other similar restaurants in

16     Belgrade, and we discovered that there were.  We discovered that there

17     was a restaurant by the name of the Victoria Station restaurant, which is

18     in new Belgrade, and that it is designed to look like a Victorian train

19     carriage and so forth, and we discovered that that had been opened in

20     1993.  We also discovered -- and this is based on one article that

21     reviewed these three train carriage restaurants; I guess there was some

22     effort to promote this style of dining.  We discovered that there was a

23     third restaurant that was across the river that had been open for 30

24     years.

25             Based on this article, we sent out an investigator in Belgrade to

Page 24868

 1     interview whoever they could find at both the Victoria Station restaurant

 2     and the Balkan Ekspres restaurant to find out more information.  As the

 3     Court heard yesterday with respect to the Balkan Ekspres restaurant, as

 4     it says on its own website as we saw from the sign, it was founded in

 5     1998, and that was confirmed by the person with whom the investigator

 6     spoke.

 7             At the Victoria Restaurant location, which is also referred to as

 8     the Orient Express Restaurant on occasion, we were told that it has been

 9     open continuously since 1993.  We were discovering all this information

10     late yesterday afternoon and into the evening.  Naturally, we put that

11     into an information report late last night.  I copied the article that

12     the investigator located which discussed these three restaurants.  We

13     even downloaded a Belgrade Yellow Page page which refers to the Victoria

14     Station restaurant as the Orient Express, and we disclosed that last

15     night to counsel with the additional -- the new information report from

16     our investigator which summarizes the investigative efforts that the

17     Prosecution undertook after court yesterday and in cooperation with

18     representatives from our field office.

19             So all that went out as soon as we could last night so that

20     everybody could be aware of the developments that the investigation had

21     made.

22             I additionally, as I mentioned, CC'd the Trial Chamber's legal

23     officers to alert the legal officers that there was this new development

24     given the Trial Chamber's decision to recall the prior witness.  I

25     received some criticism or questioning about my decision to do that, to

Page 24869

 1     send this information to the Court's legal officers.  Obviously, that's

 2     not my practice.  I think anybody from Chambers knows that I don't

 3     bombard Chambers with e-mails.  I only CC the legal officers if it has

 4     something to do with scheduling or other administrative matters, but

 5     given this unusual situation where the Court has recalled a witness and

 6     speculating that it may have something to do with this train issue, I

 7     thought it was prudent to let the legal officers know, trusting that they

 8     would make the appropriate decision whether to pass that information on

 9     to the Trial Chamber because I know that Trial Chamber sometimes doesn't

10     want to know everything there is to know behind a particular issue.

11             And I think that is pretty much as much as I can summarize where

12     we are now.  And what I intend to do with the witness, and again, I've --

13     I have no qualms about letting everybody know, I'm simply going to tell

14     her what happened, tell her that when I examined you yesterday I was

15     under the impression that Balkan Ekspres restaurant was the only one in

16     town, we found out there's another one, think it might be the one that

17     was discussed, and see what happens.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.  Mr. Josse.

19             MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, I don't want to make a mountain out of a

20     molehill.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  I hope not.

22             MR. JOSSE:  But could I make it clear, it was I who sent the

23     e-mail expressing concern that the information report had been sent to

24     the legal officers, I made it clear, first of all, that this issue didn't

25     relate to my client; secondly, I sent it only to Mr. Thayer,

Page 24870

 1     Mr. McCloskey, and Mr. Krgovic, and it was a gentle inquiry, and

 2     Mr. Thayer is aware that it's an issue that I feel quite strongly about,

 3     particularly in relation to experiences I've had in other cases.  Beyond

 4     that, we on behalf of General Gvero, of course not involved in this

 5     issue, but unless it's directly relevance and needed, it's our submission

 6     such material should not be sent to legal officers.  But as I say, I

 7     don't want to make anything more of it.  I simply think I need to admit

 8     that it was I who, I am afraid, stirred the flames of what's already

 9     quite a bitter dispute.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  By the way, before I give

11     you the floor Mr. Ostojic, I think on behalf of the Trial Chamber I

12     better make things clear to you that we have all had extensive practice

13     as judges or as lawyers, and we know what the boundaries are, what the

14     limits are, what is permissible and what is not, and so does our senior

15     legal officer.  Our senior legal officer with whom we have regular

16     meetings, and I in particular have daily meetings, knows exactly what is

17     permissible and what is not permissible.  And sometimes I am aware that

18     he receives communications from you which he knows he ought to keep to

19     himself and not pass on to us because it would not be regular on his part

20     to communicate the information to us.

21             Sometimes he asks for direction from us, but basically, basically

22     he is a trained lawyer with much experience, and he knows where the

23     limits are.  I can put your mind at rest that if there is room for

24     mistakes anywhere, this is certainly not one area where you can expect

25     mistakes, neither from our side - as I said, we know what the limits are

Page 24871

 1     - nor from our senior legal officer.

 2             I think I ought to make that clear in the first place.

 3             Now, Mr. Ostojic.

 4             MS. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Let me

 5     first begin by apologizing for my outburst, but these are very sensitive

 6     issues, and I do honestly from the bottom of my heart apologise for my

 7     outburst.

 8             I'm going to direct your attention to two things that my learned

 9     friend said.  He says, I don't know if it's of interest to you.  I'm not

10     going to comment if it's disingenuous or not, but look on page 6 of

11     today's transcript.  He says again, which is where I get frustrated, "at

12     the Victoria restaurant location, which is also referred to as the Orient

13     Express restaurant on occasion."  That's not true.  I have to fight for

14     this Court to hear some truth.  The Orient Express Restaurant at Victoria

15     Station has a sign that's painted on that train that says "Orient

16     Express."  Simplon Orient Express.  It can be seen for blocks, several

17     feet or metres away.  They shouldn't say things like that, I believe,

18     Your Honour.  They should show the Court the picture, not the one they

19     e-mailed us but the other one, which we can see it, where it says

20     Victoria Station and Simplon Orient Express and clearly saying it opened

21     in 1993.  They don't want to -- that's what they should tell you.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are now making the storm in the tea cup that

23     Mr. Josse tried to avoid.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  I didn't write --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can close the issue there.  Give us an

Page 24872

 1     opportunity to -- give me an opportunity to confer with my colleagues

 2     because, obviously, we were prepared for one thing, and we have been

 3     taken by surprise, and we'll come back to you as to what is going to

 4     happen.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So bottom line after all this is the following:  We

 7     have agreed, the four of us, that we don't need Mrs. Gavrilovic anymore,

 8     so Madam Registrar, if you could make -- communicate this to her and

 9     apologise to her for any inconvenience and, again, wish her a safe

10     journey back to Belgrade and maybe a nice evening out at the Orient

11     Express.

12             The other thing is this, that, also, it's a bottom line and

13     thinking with hindsight, all this, all this could have been avoided had

14     your witness summaries, Mr. Ostojic, been more excessive or

15     comprehensive.  The restaurant could have been mentioned in the witness

16     summaries; investigations could have been taken -- been made before and

17     ... but anyway, leave it, leave it.  Let's continue with the witness, the

18     current witness.  If you could usher her in, please.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, Mr. Cubbon just asked me about

22     that witness in the videolink.  I've had a chance to look at a translated

23     medical report, and then we've translated the medical terms, and we won't

24     be objecting to the videolink.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  So in fact, I was working on that this morning.

Page 24873

 1     There are arrangements already going on to have the videolink testimony

 2     conducted on the 9th and 10th of September.  Our staff can confirm to the

 3     registrar that the motion is being granted here and now.  Thank you.

 4                           WITNESS:  MIROSLAVA CEKIC [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, madam.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome back.  We are going to continue with your

 9     testimony and hopefully finish soon.  You are still testifying under oath

10     as per your solemn undertaking yesterday.  Mr. Thayer will continue and

11     conclude with his cross-examination.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning again, ma'am.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   I want to pick up on a topic that we touched on yesterday, and

17     that has to do with the discussion that you recall about the Orient

18     Express and this restaurant in a train car.  Do you recall talking about

19     that?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Do you recall that there was some mention, you thought it might

22     have been from one of the Gavrilovics, about a newly opened restaurant

23     that was made like a train car for people to eat in; is that correct?

24        A.   No, I don't recall that.  I don't think I heard them say that.

25        Q.   What do you recall, then, hearing, or what do you recall hearing

Page 24874

 1     them say?

 2        A.   There was some discussion about the Orient Express, about taking

 3     a travel on board of the train because of their anniversary, and they

 4     said that they would go but had no money.  They were supposed to travel

 5     to a large city such as London, Paris.  As far as I can tell from

 6     Belgrade, the Orient Express did not run at the time.

 7        Q.   I just want to turn your attention back to what you said

 8     yesterday, ma'am.  You answered that, "Yes, I heard it being mentioned

 9     that evening, the Orient Express and the train car," and then I asked

10     you:  "The train car restaurant you are referring to", and you said:

11     "Yes, I mean the restaurant."  Do you recall saying that yesterday,

12     ma'am?

13        A.   No, I did not say anything about the restaurant.  I did not even

14     know that the restaurant existed.  You asked me and you showed me a

15     picture of the restaurant.  I never went to that restaurant.  I don't

16     know where it is.

17        Q.   That's right, and you certainly told us that yesterday, ma'am.

18     What I'm asking you is, when we spoke yesterday I asked you - and this is

19     at page 24854 of the transcript - "Do you remember during the course of

20     this second dinner, or maybe even during the course of the first dinner,

21     do you remember during the dinner joking about the Orient Express?  Do

22     you remember somebody saying something to the effect of, 'Well, there's

23     this new restaurant that looks like a train car.  Since you can't go on

24     the real Orient Express, maybe you could go have dinner in the train

25     car'?"  I asked you, do you remember any conversation or discussion along

Page 24875

 1     those lines, and then you answered:  "Yes, I heard it being mentioned

 2     that evening, the Orient Express and the train car."  And then I asked

 3     you:  "The train car restaurant you are referring to?"  And you answered,

 4     and this is at line 24:  "Yes, I mean the restaurant."  And then I asked

 5     you:  "I know this is going back, but can you recall who came up with the

 6     joke about the train car restaurant?  If you don't remember, that's fine.

 7     If you remember, please share that with the Trial Chamber."  And your

 8     answer was, and this is on the next page, 24855, line 3:  "I don't

 9     remember.  As I said a moment ago, I was going in and out of the room

10     where we were, going back to the kitchen to bring out drinks and food.

11     Maybe I was absent at that very moment when someone said it.  Perhaps it

12     was one of the Gavrilovics."  Do you remember saying that yesterday,

13     ma'am?  We need an audible answer, ma'am, one that we can hear, a yes or

14     no.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And do you stand by that answer?

17        A.   Yes, I do.  Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I would like, Mr. Thayer, for you to read the --

19     read up the answer which appears in page 24851, lines from 16 to 18.  If

20     you could find it, where she said:  "Well, it seems I'll have to take you

21     by your hands to take you to the train station, and at least you can look

22     at the train.  That was the tone of the evening."

23             MR. THAYER:

24        Q.   Do you stand by that recollection as well, ma'am, or is your

25     recollection now different?

Page 24876

 1        A.   I stand by that recollection.

 2        Q.   So then, ma'am, just to follow up on His Honour's question, is it

 3     your recollection that there were jokes of both kinds made that night,

 4     one by Mr. Beara about taking you down to look at the train and another

 5     joke by one of the Gavrilovics about instead of going on your trip, going

 6     to this newly opened restaurant in a train car?

 7        A.   Yes, those were the jokes about all that, about the situation,

 8     and we had quite a few laughs about that.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Ma'am, we did a little bit of checking around yesterday

10     after court and we found another restaurant, also in Belgrade, and it's

11     called Victoria Station.  Sometimes it's referred to as the "Orient

12     Express Restaurant."  And to be fair with you, when I asked you the

13     question yesterday about the Balkan Ekspres restaurant, I was under the

14     impression that that was the only such restaurant in Belgrade.  But it

15     turns out there might be -- in fact, there is more than one such

16     restaurant in Belgrade.

17             So what I want to do is give you an opportunity to look at some

18     pictures, read some portions of an article, look at another document, and

19     see if that helps your recollection, changes your recollection at all

20     about this issue of whether the restaurant and the train that was

21     referred to was one place or another, okay?

22             MR. THAYER:  If we could have 65 ter 3649, please.

23             Your Honours, I think everything should be uploaded in e-court by

24     now, including the English translation of one of the articles which is

25     attached to this information report.  So I'm going to skip the actual

Page 24877

 1     text of the report, obviously.  I just want to show the witness in her

 2     own language, and this is at page 3 of the document, an article.

 3        Q.   Ma'am, there's going to be an article appearing on your computer

 4     screen, and it's going to show a train carriage and then in one

 5     photograph at the top and then on the bottom photograph it will show some

 6     restaurant booths.  Just tell us when you see that document.

 7        A.   Yes, I can see the pictures, but I'm not familiar with the place.

 8     I was never in this restaurant.  I don't even know where it is.

 9        Q.   That's fine.  The article says that the restaurant Victoria

10     Station is in Novi Grad, and can we go to page 6, please.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think -- I think now you've covered enough

12     terrain to prompt us to say that we've heard enough on this now, and you

13     can move.

14             MR. THAYER:  Great.  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  You can move to something else.  I mean, it's clear

16     enough now.  I don't think we need any further explanations from the

17     witness.  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  My computer has frozen, so if I can just have some

19     technical assistance with the files.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Which -- you have only got that one.  Yes.  Yeah,

21     I'll attend to that straightaway.  Madam Registrar.  Shall we move on in

22     the meantime, or do you prefer to stop?

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think we can move on.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Anyone else with the same

25     problem?

Page 24878

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  I just adjusted it somehow.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Now, ma'am, you testified that you first met with the Beara

 5     Defence team in February of 2008 at Nada Beara's home; is that correct?

 6     That was at transcript 24830.

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 8        Q.   And how is it that you are sure of that month?

 9        A.   Well, it was this year towards the end of February when Mr. Milan

10     Stanic arrived from The Hague.  Maybe a few days before that I came to

11     visit Nada.  That's where I found Mr. Milan Stanic.

12        Q.   Okay.  You told us yesterday that you were visiting with Nada

13     Beara and then Mr. Stanic arrived.  Is that how it happened?  Were you

14     visiting with Ms. Beara and then Mr. Stanic arrived?

15        A.   Well, there may be a confusion there.  In any case, this is where

16     I met him and this is where I saw him.  Now, as to who came first, who

17     came later, I may have been mistaken about that, but this is where I saw

18     him.

19        Q.   And that meeting may have lasted as long as two hours, correct?

20        A.   Well, you know, we did not time this meeting.  I don't know if it

21     was two hours, two hours and a quarter, or two hours and a half.  I

22     wouldn't know.  I wouldn't be able to tell you how long the meeting

23     lasted.

24        Q.   And what did he tell you he wanted?

25        A.   We chatted.  We had a lengthy conversation.  He asked me how well

Page 24879

 1     and since when I knew the Beara family, when I first met them, whether we

 2     socialized a lot, whether we were friends, and so on and so forth.  I

 3     inquired after Mr. Beara, his health, and that's the general outline of

 4     the conversation that we had.

 5        Q.   Did he ask you at that time if you were interested in being a

 6     witness?

 7        A.   Yes, he did.

 8        Q.   And was Nada Beara present for this entire meeting that you had

 9     with Mr. Stanic?

10        A.   Yes, she was.

11        Q.   So she certainly knew at that point that you were a potential

12     witness, correct?

13        A.   Well, she did know, but she could not be certain whether I would

14     follow through.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Do you still have the problem, or do

16     you have the problem again, Mr. Ostojic?

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  I do have the problem again, but we can continue.

18     I just wanted to --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, just -- because I saw you making signs.  I just

20     wanted to verify that.  We still need technical assistance for

21     Mr. Ostojic, please.  Thank you.

22             Sorry, Mr. Thayer.  Please proceed.

23             MR. THAYER:

24        Q.   And was anyone taking notes during this meeting?

25        A.   No.

Page 24880

 1        Q.   Did anyone ask you to write anything down?

 2        A.   No, nobody did.

 3        Q.   Now, you testified yesterday that after the indictment against

 4     Mr. Beara was made public, you read about it in the newspapers.  Do you

 5     remember that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you also told us yesterday that you haven't been following

 8     the trial closely, but you do see TV or read press coverage about the

 9     trial from time to time; is that right?

10        A.   Yes, that is right.

11        Q.   So even though you've probably never seen the indictment - forget

12     about reading the indictment - in this case, at the time you met with Mr.

13     Stanic in February of 2008, you knew then that this case was generally

14     about what happened after the fall of Srebrenica.  Isn't that fair to

15     say?

16        A.   Well, I'm not familiar with the details of all this.  I only know

17     as much as I have read in the papers and seen on TV on the news.  This is

18     as much as I know, and this is as much I am familiar with this Srebrenica

19     case.

20        Q.   So you certainly know this is about what happened after the VRS

21     took over Srebrenica?  Even though you may not know individual counts or

22     facts there are alleged, you know that this trial has to do with what

23     happened after the VRS took over Srebrenica, correct?

24        A.   Well, no, I don't know that much.  There is not much I can tell

25     you save for what I've read or seen on TV.  As for the details, I really

Page 24881

 1     wouldn't be able to say anything about that.

 2        Q.   Now, when you met with Mr. Stanic in February of 2008 and sat

 3     with him for the two hours, you knew that it was important for you to be

 4     as complete and as accurate as you could be, right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And did you tell him everything you could remember at the time in

 7     2008 in February?

 8        A.   Well, we did not have that much time, so we could not go into the

 9     greatest of details.

10        Q.   Well, in those two hours in February, did you talk about July

11     1995?

12        A.   Well, we just touched upon the subject of July and how things

13     were at the time.  But as I say, I don't know much because I have never

14     followed the developments in Republika Srpska that closely.

15        Q.   My question more specifically is, in that two hours or maybe even

16     more, as you said, that you spent with Mr. Stanic, did he ask you about

17     your recollection about events in July 1995?  Not generally what was

18     happening, not what the VRS was doing, but did he ask you questions in

19     February of 2008 about what you were doing and your recollections of July

20     1995?

21        A.   No.  We did not discuss anything concrete on that particular

22     occasion.

23        Q.   Where and when was the next time you met with anyone from the

24     Beara Defence team?

25        A.   I met with Mr. Stanic somewhat later, maybe a month later.

Page 24882

 1     Actually, we spoke on the phone, but we met sometime in mid-April.

 2        Q.   And what did he want at that meeting, ma'am?

 3        A.   Well, then we spoke about things, and then he asked me how much I

 4     remember from the month of July 1995 and what I remembered.

 5        Q.   And again, you knew it was important when he was asking you these

 6     questions about July of 1995 to be as complete and as accurate as

 7     possible?

 8        A.   Yes.  I knew it was important, yes.

 9        Q.   And during this meeting, was anyone taking any notes?

10        A.   No.  There were just Mr. Stanic and I.

11        Q.   And did you observe him taking any notes or writing anything down

12     at any time or recording anything with a machine?

13        A.   Yes, he was actually taking notes, yes.  Mr. Stanic was.

14        Q.   And how long was this meeting, ma'am?

15        A.   Maybe an hour or so or maybe just over an hour, an hour and a

16     quarter.

17        Q.   So when was the first time that you told anyone from the Beara

18     Defence team about the events in 1995, these two dinners, for example,

19     that you've told us about over the last day or so.  When was the first

20     time you told anybody from the Defence team for Mr. Beara about those

21     events?

22        A.   That was during my second meeting with Mr. Stanic in mid-April.

23     I can't remember the exact date.  I don't know whether it was on the

24     18th, the 19th, or the 20th of April, but it was about that time.

25        Q.   Did you have to consult anything or refer to anything during the

Page 24883

 1     course of this meeting to help jog your recollection about these events,

 2     or were you able simply to remember everything from your mind?

 3        A.   Well, we started by saying that the times were very hard in 1994

 4     and 1995.  In 1995, my late husband lost his job.  Living was not easy.

 5     The financial situations became more difficult, and that's how the

 6     conversation started.  That's how I started telling him the story, and

 7     that's how I shared with him whatever I've been sharing with you these

 8     two days.

 9        Q.   Okay.  But certainly, he was very interested in what you had to

10     say about these two dinners that you had with the Bearas and this

11     particular time period; isn't that fair to say?

12        A.   Well, yes, but in order to arrive at all that we mentioned many

13     other things that were happening during the years after the break-up of

14     our state.  This is how the conversation started.  We were talking about

15     people losing jobs, about life being very hard.  We basically spoke in

16     general terms, and then I continued speaking about the specific events

17     that happened and that Mr. Stanic was particularly interested in.

18        Q.   And what were the specific events that happened that Mr. Stanic

19     was particularly interested in?

20        A.   Well, I think that Mr. Stanic was interested in our get-togethers

21     with Ljubisa Beara.  He asked me when I saw him, when I spoke to him, and

22     that's what I told him.

23        Q.   Now, you made it clear yesterday that you didn't even know

24     Mr. Beara was having his birthday until Nada Beara told you so?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24884

 1        Q.   And you said -- and let me just take you back a little bit to

 2     what you said yesterday, and then I'll put my question to you, but I want

 3     to give you a little bit of background of what you've said.  You said

 4     referring to the dinner at the restaurant, which my friend referred to as

 5     the first dinner, that you stayed there until 11 to 1130.  Then Nada

 6     Beara told you, and I'm quoting from the transcript yesterday:  "Do you

 7     know what happens tomorrow?"  And you replied:  "Not really."  And then

 8     she told you that the next day was her husband's birthday.  That's the

 9     first thing you said.

10             And a little bit later, you testified in 1995, and I'm quoting

11     here:  "We got together in July when Ljubisa was in Belgrade.  That was

12     the day when we went to the restaurant; and then Nada reminded me that on

13     the following day, which was I think the 14th of July -- because this is

14     what she told me.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have known."  Okay, and that's

15     at transcript 24841 of yesterday's hearing.  The previous quote was from

16     24833.

17             Now, in answer to a question from His Honour, the Presiding

18     Judge, you said -- or the question was:  "At the time, were you aware of

19     Mr. Beara's date of birth or birthday?"  And you replied, "When we got

20     together on that first evening while we were sitting and chatting, or

21     rather, when it was time for us to go home..." You told the Trial Chamber

22     then that Nada Beara told you that Ljubisa Beara's birthday was the next

23     day, and I'm quoting again:  "That's when she told me the date.

24     Otherwise, I wouldn't have known."  That's the end of your quote there at

25     24842 of the transcript.

Page 24885

 1             So ma'am, let me see if I understand what you're telling the

 2     Trial Chamber.  You are at this restaurant.  Nada Beara tells you, do you

 3     know what tomorrow is.  You say, no, I don't.  She says, it's Ljubisa's

 4     birthday.  And then she goes out of her way to tell you that the next day

 5     is the 14th of July.  She actually gives you the date.  She goes out of

 6     her way to give you the date of 14th of July.  Is that what you're

 7     telling the Trial Chamber?

 8        A.   Yes, that's how it was.  That was our conversation when we met

 9     that evening and when we were supposed to go home.  That was on the 13th,

10     and then Nada told me that on the following day was her husband's

11     birthday, which I wouldn't have known had she not specifically mentioned

12     the fact.

13        Q.   So ma'am, how is it that 13 years later here you can recall that

14     exact date that Nada Beara gave you that night at the restaurant, that

15     exact date of 14 July as opposed to any other date?  How is it that 14th

16     of July sticks out in your mind?

17        A.   Well, in the month of May when we got together and when we

18     socialised at our house, at the house of me and my late husband was the

19     16th of May, and it was my birthday on that day.  Ljubisa and Nada were

20     there, and then we met on several occasions after that, and in the month

21     of July we also socialised and got together.  And I would not have known

22     that it was either the 13th or 14th if Nada hadn't mentioned that, which

23     means that the day before we were together, which was on the 13th, I

24     would not have known that it was the 13th.  I would not be so sure.  It

25     could have been the 12th or the 11th, but I knew that it was on the 13th

Page 24886

 1     because when we were saying our good-byes then she said, tomorrow my old

 2     man - that's how she referred to her husband - celebrates his birthday.

 3     And that's how I remember things.  It could have been some other date in

 4     July as far as I know.

 5        Q.   My question to you, ma'am, is, how can you explain to the Trial

 6     Chamber how that date, the 14th of July, has stuck in the your memory for

 7     the last 13 years as opposed to July 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, so on and so on,

 8     because you didn't know Ljubisa Beara's birthday.  You've told us that

 9     consistently.  So why is it -- can you tell the Court why is it that that

10     date has stuck in your mind since you didn't know when his birthday was?

11        A.   Well, if someone tells me something, then I remember things.  It

12     hasn't been so long a time ago.  I maybe even made a note somewhere so as

13     to know that it was Ljubisa's birthday.  I was born in May, my late

14     husband in June.  That's how I generally try to remember things.

15        Q.   So you think you might have a note somewhere, ma'am?

16        A.   Could be.  I wasn't going back to my notes, but when Mr. Stanic

17     and I spoke he asked me whether I remembered, and it brought back things.

18        Q.   He asked you whether you remembered what, ma'am?

19        A.   He asked me when we saw each other, when we socialised, when we

20     spent time together.  That would be it.

21        Q.   Now, you know that Svetlana Gavrilovic has met with the Beara

22     team investigators, correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And when did you first learn this?

25        A.   I don't know exactly when Mr. Stanic contacted Svetlana.  I

Page 24887

 1     didn't ask her that, she didn't tell me that.  Whether it was after our

 2     conversation, well, I can't say.  I didn't ask her.  I don't know that.

 3        Q.   So I'm a little confused about your last answer, ma'am.  Is it

 4     your testimony that you and Ms. Gavrilovic have never spoken to each

 5     other about either her meeting, and we'll start with her meeting with Mr.

 6     Stanic.

 7        A.   We did talk about it, but I didn't ask her on what day it was,

 8     whether it was two or three days after our meeting or a week later.  I

 9     didn't ask her that.  However, I do know that they spoke.

10        Q.   And did you and Ms. Gavrilovic share with each other at any time

11     what you told Mr. Stanic?

12        A.   We didn't go into any details.  We were trying to remember what

13     was happening that July 1995, and then she said, well, that was the year

14     my late husband and myself celebrated our anniversary.  That's what we

15     could recall.

16        Q.   So that's what you two recall together as you were talking about

17     what Mr. Stanic had spoken about with Ms. Gavrilovic.  Is that what you

18     are saying?

19        A.   No.  I don't know what the two of them talked about.  When we met

20     and talked a few days after, she told me that.  She reminded me, saying

21     that it was a date that one remembers.

22        Q.   So she gave you that date; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, she said so.

24        Q.   And what did she tell you about her recollection of the events of

25     July 1995?

Page 24888

 1        A.   We didn't discuss that.

 2        Q.   So it's your testimony that you and Ms. Gavrilovic never talked

 3     to each other about, for example, the two dinners that you told my friend

 4     about and that you've spoken to the Trial Chamber about?  You never spoke

 5     about those two dinners with Ms. Gavrilovic in the last few months?

 6        A.   No, never.  We talked about things in general but without any

 7     details.  I didn't ask her what specifically she talked about with Mr.

 8     Stanic and the other way around.  She didn't ask me, either.

 9        Q.   Now, if we could have 65 ter 3631, please.

10             Now, ma'am, we don't have a translation of this, so I'm just

11     going to read something to you.  In April of this year, we received a

12     summary of what your testimony was going to be from the Beara Defence

13     team, and I just want to read it to you - it shouldn't take too long -

14     and ask you some questions.  The summary says that - and this is

15     referring to you, ma'am - "Witness has been a friend of Beara family

16     since 1975..." and I understand that that's a typo.  It should be 1985.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   "And they socialised quite frequently after the Bearas moved to

19     Belgrade in 1991.  After Beara joined the VRS, they would see each other

20     whenever he happened to be in Belgrade.  Their socialisation consisted

21     almost entirely of home visits with a single exception when they went out

22     to a restaurant at the insistence of the witness's spouse, and that was

23     for Beara's birthday.  She recalls that that was in 1995 because that was

24     the first time she and her husband did not vacation on the sea coast due

25     to financial problems.  Since her husband had commitments the night of

Page 24889

 1     Beara's birthday, they went out for dinner with the Bearas the evening

 2     before that.  They went to the Cuburska lipa restaurant on 14th of

 3     December Street.  The following evening, Nada and Ljubisa Beara came to

 4     visit the witness at her house.  Also in attendance were friends Svetlana

 5     Gavrilovic and late husband Djordje."

 6             Now, ma'am, the summary I just read to you contains no references

 7     to any dates of these two dinners.  My question is, when you met with the

 8     Beara team's investigators either in February or in April, did you give

 9     them any dates of these dinners?

10        A.   I did not.

11        Q.   And I see here that there's no reference to any Orient Express or

12     train restaurant stories or even mention.  In your meetings with the

13     Beara Defence team in February or April, did you tell them about your

14     recollections concerning the Gavrilovics' anniversary plans that fell

15     through and the Orient Express trip that they had planned and the jokes

16     about taking somebody to the train station for Mr. Beara or the joke

17     about going to the train restaurant?  Did you say any of that to the

18     investigators in February or April of 2008?

19        A.   No, I didn't discuss that with them.

20        Q.   May we have 65 ter 3630, please.

21             Ma'am, we asked for some more information from Mr. Beara's

22     lawyers about what your testimony was likely to be, and we received

23     another summary, and I'm just going to read the new information.  The

24     summary consists of what I've just read to you a few moments ago and then

25     some new information.  So let me just read to you this additional

Page 24890

 1     paragraph.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm sorry to interrupt.  In light of Mr. -- my

 4     learned friend's question on page 26, line 16, I think it's fair to this

 5     witness to tell her, also, the date of this summary.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Page 26, line 16.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yeah.  He said the first exhibit that he used, he

 8     said in April of this year, and I think it would only be fair if he tells

 9     her when this summary was provided.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough I think, Mr. Thayer.

11             MR. THAYER:  Sure.

12        Q.   We asked for some more information.  And then this summary was

13     supplied to us in August of 2008.

14             Now, the new information is:  "In addition to the foregoing" --

15     and that's referring to your earlier statement -- or the earlier summary,

16     I'm sorry -- "it was clarified with the witness Cekic that her and her

17     late husband had dinner with the Bearas on the 13th July, 1995, because

18     they were unable to attend the luncheon party Ms. Beara had for Ljubisa

19     Beara at the Beara's house, which she had on the 14 July 1995.  Later

20     that same evening on 14 July, 1995, the Cekics and Bearas again get

21     together at Cekic's home.  During the visit at the Cekics' house on the

22     14 July, the Gavrilovic family, Svetlana and her husband Djordje, were

23     also present, and the gathering lasted approximately two to three hours.

24     The witness does not recall what they specifically ate that evening but

25     assumes that they served them the traditional pita and homemade cookies.

Page 24891

 1     Finally, Ms. Cekic informed us that her late husband and her late husband

 2     have worked together in the past in the company Beojadro and Splitjadro.

 3     It was through that professional working relationship that they became

 4     friends.  Ms. Cekic will testify as to Ljubisa Beara's good character and

 5     physical appearance as well as his dialect."

 6             Now, this new summary includes some specific dates on which you

 7     say these events happened.  You told us a few moments ago that you didn't

 8     provide any dates in your other interviews.  Tell us how the dates came

 9     up in this interview.  How is it that we are now seeing exact dates in

10     August of 2008 when you didn't provide them in April or previously?

11        A.   I probably did say that.  If Mr. Stanic was following me, then it

12     should be in here.  When we met at the restaurant, I don't -- I couldn't

13     remember exactly what the date was, but as we were parting our ways, Nada

14     stressed that the 14th of July was Ljubisa Beara's birthday; therefore,

15     the evening before when we were together was the 13th.  That's it.

16     That's what I could recall.

17        Q.   Okay.  My question is, though, ma'am -- you didn't recall those

18     dates in your April 30th meeting with the investigator, and my question

19     is --

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think he just may have misspoken.  I don't think

22     that she said there was a April 30th meeting.  She gave specific dates,

23     actually, which was mid-April.  The filing was pursuant to the Court's

24     order for May 1st, but just not to confuse the case, there was no meeting

25     on April 30th.

Page 24892

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes, yes.  You are correct.

 2             MR. THAYER:  I stand corrected.  Your April.  We'll just leave it

 3     as your --

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  Why don't we say mid-April or the dates that she

 5     gave when she said the 18th, 19th, or 20th?

 6             MR. THAYER:  That's fine.

 7        Q.   Now, ma'am, your recollection, what you've just told the Chamber,

 8     if I understand you correctly, is there were no dates in that April

 9     summary that I just read because you didn't mention any dates in April

10     when you met with the investigator; is that correct?

11        A.   Again, I can tell you that I may have mentioned the dates, but

12     Mr. Stanic had not had noted them down.  Later on when I was trying to

13     recall all of it, I was able to remember those things, and I may have

14     added that.

15        Q.   So the fact is, you can't be sure whether you were able to recall

16     those dates in April of 2008 when you met with the investigator.  Isn't

17     that correct, ma'am?

18        A.   I do recall that, but as I'm trying to tell you it could be that

19     Mr. Stanic hadn't taken note of it.  Maybe there was an omission,

20     something I can't explain.  I can't tell you what happened.

21        Q.   Okay.  So let me just be clear.  What is your recollection as to

22     whether you were able to provide these dates of the 13th and 14th of July

23     during your meeting in April with Mr. Stanic?  Did you or did you not

24     provide him the dates on that occasion?  And if you can't recall, ma'am,

25     that's fine too.

Page 24893

 1        A.   Well, as I said, I probably remembered that subsequently, maybe

 2     the next time we met or heard each other over the phone.  Mr. Stanic, I

 3     remember, was later absent because of health reasons.  As for why he

 4     hadn't written it down, I really can't say.

 5        Q.   And in the additional summary from August that I've just read,

 6     there's no -- again, no mention of any 25th wedding anniversary, jokes

 7     about the Orient Express, or anything about a restaurant or a train.  Do

 8     you recall telling the investigators or anybody from the Beara Defence

 9     team about those topics when you met in August?

10        A.   No, I didn't say that.  I only tried to explain the extent of the

11     discussions, jokes, when we were at our house the next day, the 14th of

12     July.  But as for any details, I really don't know.

13        Q.   Okay.  Well, you just told us that you "tried to explain the

14     extent of the discussions and the jokes when we were at our house the

15     next day, the 14th of July."  So my question is, if that's what you were

16     trying to do in August, how come we don't see that in the additional

17     summary?  Is it because you didn't recall it in August; is it because you

18     said it but it wasn't written down; or is there some other explanation,

19     ma'am?

20        A.   I thought that it wasn't ... I thought I was supposed to say what

21     we were talking about, what we were making jokes about, and it's probably

22     for that reason why I didn't share that with the investigators.

23        Q.   Ma'am, I'm sorry.  I just don't understand your last answer.

24     Maybe it's my problem this morning.  But you just said:  "I thought I was

25     supposed to say what we were talking about, what we were making jokes

Page 24894

 1     about, and it's probably for that reason why I didn't share that with the

 2     investigators."  My question to you is --

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  I do think at this point Mr. Ostojic may have

 4     missed, as we see on the transcript, the beginning part of her answer,

 5     and I think maybe he can read that to her.  I think the translators

 6     didn't pick up on what she said specifically, and also, just so that I

 7     can remember, and I apologise, I'm going to have a look at page 31, line

 8     16.  I don't know that that was accurately translated, but we'll deal

 9     with that at a later time.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I wouldn't be able to help you there.  If someone

11     else who speaks the language can be of assistance.  In what sense do you

12     think ...

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  We'll listen the tape, but I think she said "I

14     didn't" in reference to that, not that I don't know because she said it

15     rather plainly, but we'll take a look at it just to be sure.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Thank you.  Yes, yes, yes.  It

17     can be verified later on.

18             MR. THAYER:

19        Q.   Now, back to my question, ma'am.  You just testified that "I

20     thought I was supposed to say what we were talking about, what we were

21     making jokes about, and it's probably for that reason why I didn't share

22     that with the investigators."

23             Now, I just -- when you met with the Beara Defence team in August

24     of 2008, did you or did you not tell them about the jokes about the

25     Orient Express vacation or holiday that fell through, the 25th

Page 24895

 1     anniversary gift that the Gavrilovics wanted to have for themselves, that

 2     trip, jokes about the -- going to the train station that Mr. Beara made,

 3     or the joke about having dinner in a train restaurant?  Did you or did

 4     you not in August of 2008 share that information with the Beara Defence

 5     team?

 6        A.   Yes.  I said that my late husband was out of work, that we were

 7     unable to go on a vacation as we had done before, that we were very sorry

 8     about it, that we remained in Belgrade, that we socialised, that we saw

 9     the Beara and Gavrilovic families, that there were jokes, stories, and

10     whatnot, and I also said that at our house when we saw each other on the

11     evening of the 14th that I had prepared a pie, which is a traditional

12     meal, cakes, ham, drinks.  In the meantime I went to the kitchen, and we

13     were talking about this and that.  If I had made an omission in the fact

14     that I may not have mentioned to the Defence the fact about the Orient

15     Express, I don't know.  But as for the rest, I stand by what I said.  I

16     tried to explain what was going on.

17        Q.   Now, ma'am, you and Ms. Gavrilovic have certainly shared that

18     story between you, that joke about the Orient Express and going to the

19     train station, the joke that Mr. Beara made, and the joke that one of the

20     Gavrilovics made about going to a train restaurant.  You and

21     Ms. Gavrilovic have shared those jokes, haven't you, since this night

22     that you say was July 14th of 1995?

23        A.   Yes.  We spoke within the context of jokes because at the time

24     nobody had any money to travel and they didn't, either, because as far as

25     I can remember and as far as I can actually be sure of, that train did

Page 24896

 1     not have its departure point in Belgrade.

 2        Q.   And since being contacted by the Beara Defence team in February

 3     of 2008, you and Ms. Gavrilovic have spoken to each other and recalled

 4     these jokes about Mr. Beara saying he will take somebody down to the

 5     train station, or instead of going on the Orient Express, we'll go to a

 6     train restaurant; isn't that true, ma'am?

 7        A.   Yes, we spoke about that.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I see it's time for the break.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  We'll have a 25-minute break.  Thank you.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer, if you could conclude, please.

14             MR. THAYER:  I will, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Ma'am, you just told us before the break that after you had been

16     contacted by the Beara Defence team in 2008, sometime after that you and

17     Ms. Gavrilovic had spoken to each other and recalled these jokes about

18     the train restaurant, going down to the train station, the Orient

19     Express.  My question is, did you have that conversation, or if it was

20     more than one conversation, did you have one of those conversations

21     before you spoke to the Beara team in April or after you spoke to the

22     Beara team in April?

23        A.   Not before.  We never discussed that before.

24        Q.   And do you recall whether you had one of those conversations

25     before your meeting with the Beara Defence team in August, or was it

Page 24897

 1     after your meeting in August?

 2        A.   We did not talk about that before August, either, before we met

 3     with the Defence team.  We never discussed that before.

 4        Q.   So can you tell the Trial Chamber when you had this discussion or

 5     this conversation or conversations, if it's more than one, with

 6     Ms. Gavrilovic where you recalled the jokes about the Orient Express or

 7     eating in a train restaurant?

 8        A.   When we saw each other after the meeting with the Defence team,

 9     we reminisced on what had happened, what we had talked about that

10     evening, how we joked about things, how we'd chatted and socialised, and

11     in more general terms what it was that people or friends talk about when

12     they get together.

13        Q.   So you are telling the Trial Chamber that after you met with the

14     Defence team in August of 2008, you and Ms. Gavrilovic had a conversation

15     where the two of you talked about the train restaurant and going down to

16     the train station?  That happened sometime after your meeting in August

17     of 2008; you and Ms. Gavrilovic talked about that together, correct?

18        A.   Yes.  We chatted and one of the things that we touched upon was

19     that story, as well, and that was after the meeting with the Defence

20     team.

21        Q.   And then when you came here, you met with the Defence team again,

22     and you were proofed; that is, somebody met with you to discuss your

23     upcoming testimony, and this would have been sometime in the last few

24     days, correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24898

 1        Q.   And during that proofing session, did you tell the Beara Defence

 2     team anything about this Orient Express trip or the train restaurant or

 3     Mr. Beara taking somebody down to the train station?  Did you tell the

 4     Beara Defence team anything about those events, those recollections that

 5     you and Ms. Gavrilovic talked about together in August?

 6        A.   When I spoke to the Defence team, I told them what had been going

 7     on, how life had been, and we also discussed the two relevant days, the

 8     13th and the 14th of July.  We also spoke about Ljubisa, his family,

 9     about our friendship.  I told them that they were a wonderful family,

10     very normal, very stable, with two very good and healthy children.

11             This is more or less what we talked about, and as for the jokes

12     that we shared that evening at my home, I did not say anything specific

13     about any of those to the Defence team.

14        Q.   Now, you didn't mention the train restaurant jokes or that topic

15     until I asked you about it here in court, and you remembered it.  Were

16     you able to remember it, recall it so quickly because you had had this

17     recent conversation in August with Ms. Gavrilovic, or did someone tell

18     you about it during the course of one of the interviews you had with the

19     Beara team, whether it was a proofing session or an interview?  Can you

20     tell the Court?

21        A.   I did not discuss that with the Defence team.  We only discussed

22     the things that I have just mentioned.  As for Svetlana she said that,

23     and then when you asked me, I remember what we had talked about that

24     evening, what kind of jokes had been exchanged, and I actually remembered

25     those because they did make an impact.

Page 24899

 1        Q.   And they made an impact, but your testimony is you didn't tell

 2     the Beara Defence team about those topics; is that correct?

 3        A.   I'm not getting your drift at all.  What is it that you are

 4     asking me?

 5        Q.   Well, you just told the Court that as a result of your

 6     conversation with Ms. Gavrilovic you actually remembered those jokes

 7     about the train station and the train restaurant because they made an

 8     impact.  My question is, if they made an impact, why didn't you tell the

 9     Beara Defence team?

10        A.   Well, the issue never came up.  Mr. Beara's Defence team asked me

11     about the character of Mr. Ljubisa Beara, his family, how I had met them,

12     how we had socialised, how often we'd seen each other, and this is more

13     or less what we discussed.  And then when you asked me about the other

14     thing, that's when I remembered it.

15        Q.   Ma'am, clearly, the Beara Defence team spoke with you at some

16     point about these events that you say happened in July of 1995, these two

17     dinners.  You've told us about that.  My question is, isn't it the case

18     that you didn't recall these events in your conversations because it was

19     Ms. Gavrilovic who told you about those events?

20        A.   Well, she did talk about the events that had happened before, but

21     that's why -- we are friends.  That's why we socialised, to exchange our

22     everyday life about the good and the bad that is happening to us.  I

23     believe that's what friends are for.  That's what acquaintances are for.

24     I really don't know what else I could add to that.  What else do you

25     expect me to tell you?

Page 24900

 1        Q.   One more question on this topic, ma'am.

 2             After February of 2008, were you and Ms. Gavrilovic and Ms. --

 3     and Nada Beara, did you ever get together or were you ever together after

 4     any time after February of 2008 and discuss any of these things that Mr.

 5     Stanic talked to you and to Ms. Gavrilovic about, these events of July

 6     1995?

 7        A.   Svetlana and I, as I've already told you, did reminisce on that

 8     and spoke about that, but Nada never wanted to participate in such

 9     conversations, and we never spoke about the events with her.  But we did

10     remind each other of how we socialised that evening and what happened on

11     that particular evening, but we never shared any of our conversations

12     with the Defence, with Nada, or at least I never did.  I don't know about

13     the others.

14        Q.   I want to turn your attention to your testimony about getting

15     together with the Bearas on your birthday in May of 1995, and I just want

16     to quote back to you what you said about that occasion, and this is on

17     page 24832 of the transcript, and I quote:  "Since in May there's my

18     birthday.  On that day Ljubisa was in Belgrade.  I invited both him and

19     Nada to come over, not for the sake of the birthday but simply to sit

20     down and chat."

21             Now, when in May 1995 did you learn that Mr. Beara was in town?

22        A.   I wouldn't know.  I can't tell you when.  I don't know when

23     Mr. Beara came to Belgrade, but on that day in May - and I can't remember

24     what day it was exactly - in any case, on the 16th of May he was there,

25     and Nada and him came to our house to have a chat, to have a drink and a

Page 24901

 1     piece of cake.  I'd baked a birthday cake to mark the occasion, and

 2     Ljubisa and Nada brought me a golden charm depicting an anchor because

 3     this is something that has sea references, and as you know, Mr. Ljubisa

 4     Beara is a soldier -- or soldier who served at the sea.

 5        Q.   So just to be clear, your recollection is that this get-together

 6     was on the actual date of your birthday, 16 May 1995?  Sorry, we just

 7     need audible answer for the record, yes or no?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, is there anything that stands out in your memory that

10     might help you recall how long Mr. Beara had been in Belgrade at the time

11     you got together on that occasion, and if it helps at all, that was a

12     Tuesday.

13        A.   I can't tell you how long.

14        Q.   Do you have any idea where he was in the days before he came over

15     to celebrate your birthday?

16        A.   No.  I don't know.

17        Q.   Now, ma'am, yesterday I asked you the following question:

18     "Following the memorial service for your husband in 2001, when do you

19     recall speaking with Ljubisa Beara?"  And your answer was, "Well, we met

20     in the year 2000 while my husband was still alive.  That was in the month

21     of June.  We went to visit Ljubisa and Nada.  Ljubisa always liked to

22     surprise us and organise a barbecue because he had been living for many

23     years in Split and he used to speak in the Split dialect."

24             Now, I asked you a simple question about 2001, and you responded

25     about 2000 and talked about a barbecue, and then you went on to say that

Page 24902

 1     he spoke in a Split dialect.  Ma'am, my question to you is who told you

 2     that it was important to tell the Trial Chamber that Mr. Beara spoke in a

 3     Split dialect?

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  I object to the form of the question.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 6             MR. THAYER:  I can rephrase.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I think it's the case, and the transcript in

 8     any case is misleading.  Mr. Ostojic didn't give his okay to the form of

 9     the question.  He objected to it.  Yes, go ahead.

10             MR. THAYER:

11        Q.   Ma'am, did anyone tell you that it was important to tell the

12     Trial Chamber that Mr. Beara spoke in a Split dialect?

13        A.   No, nobody told me that.  This is simply the way Ljubisa speaks,

14     and it was rather odd to hear it in Serbia because people in Serbia speak

15     the way I do, for example, and Ljubisa had his very specific and strong

16     dialect on account of the fact that he had lived and worked in Split.

17        Q.   So when you happened to mention that to the Trial Chamber

18     yesterday, that was just a spontaneous statement on your part; is that

19     correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, ma'am, going back to these two dinners that you have told

22     the Trial Chamber about, did Ms. Gavrilovic ever tell you that the dinner

23     at your house that you say you hosted for the Bearas for his birthday,

24     did she ever tell you that the date of that event was July 14th?

25        A.   No, she didn't.

Page 24903

 1        Q.   She has never told you that; is that your testimony?

 2        A.   She didn't tell me that.  Ms. Gavrilovic never told me that.

 3        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  I have no further questions.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

 5             Is there re-examination, Mr. Ostojic.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  No, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 8             Madam Cekic, we've come to the end of your testimony.  We have no

 9     further questions for you, which means you are free to go.  You'll be

10     assisted by our staff.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank

11     you for having come over to give testimony, and I also wish you a safe

12     journey back home.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, Mr. Ostojic, do you have any documents, any

16     exhibits to tender?

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  We do have, Your Honour, the Exhibit with the

18     Orient Express on the Victoria Station, 1993 restaurant, but I think we

19     may cover that in a separate motion.  I know I didn't show to any of --

20     or the witness, but that came up last night when we looked for it in the

21     internet, and we -- they have a couple documents that they put into

22     e-court.  The picture isn't clear.  We have a clearer picture of where it

23     says Orient Express on the train in new Belgrade, but we may deal with

24     that subsequently.  I just don't know --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's up to you.

Page 24904

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  I can produce it.  I have it.  We can produce it.

 2     I think we were going to call it ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I'm sorry.  If it makes any

 5     difference, we have no objection to that -- those exhibits coming in.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  That being so -- thank you, Mr. Thayer.

 7     That being so, Mr. Ostojic, I suppose you can tender them now.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  It's only one Exhibit, and it's 2D600, actually,

 9     from what I recall.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is there any objection from any of the other

11     Defence teams?  None.  Mr. Thayer, do you have any documents to tender?

12             MR. THAYER:  We do, Mr. President.  We have 65 ter number 3629.

13     That is the information report which we referenced yesterday and showed a

14     couple of attachments through.  3630 and 3631, those are 65 ter

15     summaries.  In fact, I've read, I believe, most of those in, so actually

16     as I'm looking at it we can withdraw that unless there's no objection in

17     which case throw them in, we've got them marked, but I do recognise I

18     read those in, and they are a matter of record, anyway.  And then we have

19     3649, which is the information report that we cranked out last night

20     referred to today along with the attachments that we put up before the

21     witness.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Mr. Ostojic, any objection?

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  I do.  I do object to 3629 and 3649.  It's an

24     information report, I know, but I think that it's misleading for the

25     Court to have it.  I think, with all due respect, if they want to have

Page 24905

 1     the investigator come in and he can share with us his process.  I don't

 2     think for our point we need it, but we do object.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to respond to that, Mr. Thayer?

 4             MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, it's a matter that was of some

 5     discussion.  It's -- we'll leave it in the Court's hands as to whether

 6     the Chamber feels that it needs to have it.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Our decision is as follows:  We consider it to have

 9     -- all these documents to have some importance for the integrity of the

10     evidence that was adduced and heard in relation to the subject matter

11     that you are aware of, so these documents are admitted.  Any objection to

12     the other documents?

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm sorry.  I should have said that, but yeah, I

14     mean, I don't think it's necessary.  We filed the 65 ter summary.  They

15     are the same.  The Court has it, so I would just as a formality object to

16     those two.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, the summaries are -- the summaries, even

18     Mr. Thayer himself factually explained that it's neither here nor there

19     because he did read them out in court in any case.

20             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think that's all the documents, so no other --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah.  Do you insist on having them admitted or

22     not, Mr. Thayer?

23             MR. THAYER:  Not at all, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Then leave them, forget them.  I wouldn't

25     know the reference number now offhand, but we certainly know what we're

Page 24906

 1     talking about, though, which ones we are talking about.

 2             MR. THAYER:  It's 3630 and 3631.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So these are not being tendered, and we

 4     don't have to discuss them any further.

 5             All right.  Can we have the next witness, please, who will be Mr.

 6     Kerkez, no?

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  Correct.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, to you, Mr. Kerkez.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  And you're welcome to these proceedings.  You have

12     been summoned as a witness by the Defence team for Ljubisa Beara.  Before

13     you start giving evidence, you need to make a solemn declaration that you

14     will be testifying the truth, the contents of which is being handed to

15     you now.  Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn

16     undertaking with us.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Kerkez.  Please make yourself

20     comfortable.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic will go first, who will then be

23     followed on cross-examination by others.  Mr. Ostojic.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 24907

 1                           WITNESS:  MILAN KERKEZ

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Examined by Mr. Ostojic:

 4        Q.   Good morning, sir.  As you know, my name is John Ostojic, and I'm

 5     one of the attorneys who represents Ljubisa Beara.  Can you please for

 6     the record state your full name?

 7        A.   My name is Milan Kerkez.

 8        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, so that we can have a better understanding of you the

 9     person, can you give us your date of birth and place of birth, please?

10        A.   I was born on the 5th of February, 1978, in Belgrade, in Serbia.

11        Q.   And sir, can you share with us your educational background, such

12     as what's the highest level of education that you attained?

13        A.   I am a university graduate in economics obtained from the

14     Belgrade School of Business Administration, which means I have a

15     bachelors degree, and my official title after graduation is the manager

16     of small and mid-sized companies.

17        Q.   And just give us the year, if you will, of when you graduated.

18        A.   It was in December 2007, and before that I obtained an associate

19     degree after attended a school for two years and graduating in 2004.

20        Q.   Are you currently employed, sir?

21        A.   I am employed, yes.

22        Q.   Can you share with us where?

23        A.   In the Alpha Bank in Belgrade.

24        Q.   Thank you for that information.  Let's talk about the Bearas.  Do

25     you know the Beara family?

Page 24908

 1        A.   Yes, I do, through my friend Branko Beara.  I have known him

 2     since the 7th grade when he arrived from Split.  We were classmates at

 3     elementary school, and we are still friends.  We visit each other's

 4     families, we go out together, and for awhile we played handball together

 5     while we were in high school.  We used to hang out much more than we do

 6     now because now we have more obligations on our hands.

 7        Q.   Did you ever go on a vacation with Branko Beara?

 8        A.   Yes, I did, but only one summer.  We have known each other for a

 9     long time, but we spent only one summer together, which was in 1995.

10        Q.   And I know you brought some pictures with you with respect to

11     that, and we are grateful for that.  We'll get to that in a little bit.

12     How do you remember the year being 1995?

13        A.   I remember it because there are five of us friends who have been

14     together since the primary school, and that was the only summer that all

15     of us spent together.  During the previous years and after that, we did

16     spend summers together, but it was never all five of us in one place

17     together.

18        Q.   Do you recall where you went on this summer vacation -- or this

19     vacation in 1995?

20        A.   Of course.  Since the year before, that year, and the next year,

21     I was in Petrovac.  I spent my summer three years in a row in a the same

22     house with the same people.  That summer we were in Petrovac as well.

23        Q.   And just tell us where Petrovac is.

24        A.   Petrovac is on the Montenegrin coast some 50 kilometres away from

25     Budva, Budva being the closest bigger town.

Page 24909

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember, sir, when you went on vacation with

 2     Branko Beara and others in Petrovac?

 3        A.   It was between the 16th of July and the 31st of July.  Since I

 4     was a kid, I spent my vacation with parents during -- between those two

 5     dates with my parents, and I used to play handball, and by that time I

 6     would always have to go back to Belgrade to start my handball

 7     preparations for the next season.  That particular summer, I was the one

 8     organising the vacation.

 9        Q.   When does the handball preparations commence?

10        A.   The 1st of August, every 1st of August.  I was playing handball

11     there -- then at the Studentski Grad Handball Club as did Branko Beara,

12     and our coach used the system which meant that every 1st of August we had

13     to go back.  We were still kids at the time, and we were practicing for

14     the senior team, and it would not have been good for our career to be

15     late for the preparations.

16        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, I'm just waiting because we are getting a

17     simultaneous translation so that everyone can follow along with your

18     testimony.

19             Sir, I'm going to try to take you slowly through this period.  Do

20     you remember how you came or what mode of transportation you took to

21     Petrovac?

22        A.   You mean what mode of transport, or -- we were on a bus.  On the

23     15th in the evening, we set off from the sports centre hall at Banjica.

24     I can even tell you what the transport company was that we used.  It was

25     the cheapest way to go.

Page 24910

 1        Q.   What was it?

 2        A.   It's called the BS Tours.  I still think they offer the cheapest

 3     fare even today.

 4        Q.   Now, do you remember whether or not on the 15th of July prior to

 5     taking this BS Tours bus to Petrovac whether or not you had met with

 6     Branko Beara or any of the other individuals who were going on this

 7     summer vacation in Petrovac?

 8        A.   I did.  We planned that summer together as of the last day of

 9     school that year, and we agreed that all five of us would go.  We decided

10     that we would go to Petrovac, and I got in touch with the lady whose

11     phone number I already had.  Branko was short of cash, and it wasn't sure

12     whether he would be able to go.  Therefore, in early July I reserved a

13     room for four with the lady with a potential fifth person on an

14     additional bed.  On the last day, basically, the 14th of July, Branko

15     asked us to come to his house and he said that he had the money.  I rang

16     the lady and I told her, well, it seems there will be five of us after

17     all.  Then we bought the bus tickets and took off.

18        Q.   Did you see Branko Beara on the 14th of July, 1995?

19        A.   Of course, at his house.  He invited us.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness will have to repeat all the names

21     he said.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Branko invited us to come over to

23     tell us THAT he had the money, and he just wanted to know who would take

24     the frisbee, the ball, some food, et cetera.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:

Page 24911

 1        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, and I apologise, but I speak very fast, and they have

 2     trouble usually with me.  But you've just said the names of the other

 3     individuals, and can you just please kindly repeat them for us so that we

 4     can have it in the transcript.  We were unable to get their names when

 5     you said them.

 6        A.   Yes.  We met at Branco's place.  He invited us.  Boris and Emil

 7     Cukic were there.

 8        Q.   I think it's Boris, right?  B-O-R-I-S, I think we had it, and

 9     those are the twins you mentioned?

10        A.   Yes.  And Vukasin Coveljic.

11        Q.   Do you recall what time of day it was?

12        A.   [No interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, they will go back and correct that.  Thank you for

14     that.  We just wanted the name, and then we'll go back and get the

15     spelling correct.  Thank you for that.

16        A.   [In English] Okay.

17        Q.   Do you remember what time approximately on the 14th of July,

18     1995, you were at Branko Beara's house?

19        A.   [Interpretation] Around lunch time.  I'd say 2 p.m..  2, 2.30.

20        Q.   Do you remember, sir, if anyone else was present other than

21     Branko Beara?

22        A.   Yes.  I arrived there.  He lives in Kosovska Street.  I was the

23     first to get to his place, and I was greeted by his parents, his mother,

24     Nada, and his father.  I haven't seen them for a while -- I had not seen

25     them for awhile.  We talked about how things were, and then I went with

Page 24912

 1     Branko to his room.  That's where we stayed for the rest of the time

 2     while I was there.

 3        Q.   Well, approximately how long did you stay at the Beara apartment?

 4        A.   About an hour or two, an hour and a half, perhaps.

 5        Q.   Were there other people that were in the apartment at that time

 6     other than those that you've mentioned already?

 7        A.   Yes.  When I was there, Branko was there together with his

 8     father.  I greeted him, and Nada was there as well.  I used to see her a

 9     bit more frequently.  We talked a bit, and there were some other guests,

10     older people that I didn't know.  I just waved, said hello, and went with

11     Branko to his room.

12        Q.   Do you know what, if any, occasion they may have been

13     celebrating?

14        A.   I didn't know then.  Once I was with Branko in his room, I asked

15     him, how come your father is here, and he said that he arrived because it

16     was his birthday, and that's how he got the money too.

17        Q.   Did he tell you how long his father had been there, or do you

18     remember how long -- when he arrived?

19        A.   No, I really don't.  He didn't tell me anything of the sort.  He

20     just told me that he was there and he was quite happy to be able to have

21     acquired the money for the trip.

22        Q.   And you saw Mr. Beara there, as well, on that day, did you?

23        A.   Yes.  We shook hands, and perhaps we talked for a minute or two.

24     I asked him how he was, and then I followed Branko.  Branco's room was on

25     the right-hand side of the door.  We talked a bit with his parents, and

Page 24913

 1     then I followed him to his room.

 2        Q.   I have to ask you this, Mr. Kerkez, because we've met a couple of

 3     times, but do you recall the times that you and I have met?

 4        A.   I do.  I think it was in mid-May for the first time and then

 5     after that twice in the course of August.

 6        Q.   And the two meetings in August were where?

 7        A.   They were held at the Balkan Hotel in downtown Belgrade.

 8        Q.   And you may not really remember, but do you remember what

 9     restaurant in the Hotel Balkan we were at?

10        A.   I remember it's on the ground floor, but I don't remember its

11     name.

12        Q.   Now, prior to May of 2008 or mid-May, as you say, 2008, did you

13     have an opportunity to meet with Milan Stanic?

14        A.   Yes.  Around mid-April.  Milan Stanic gave me a phone call, we

15     met in his office at Stari Merkator in new Belgrade.

16        Q.   And share with us, if you will, how is it that Milan Stanic and

17     you got together at his office, to the best of your knowledge?

18        A.   The phone rang.  He introduced himself and explained why he was

19     calling me.  I thought it had to do with me, Branko, Vukasin, Boris, and

20     Emil still hung out together at the time, and we would sit down for a

21     drink.  Branco's birthday was on the 12th of April as well.  We met -- I

22     don't know if it was for his birthday or for some other reason, and we

23     discussed our past vacations, and I'm quite good at remembering details,

24     and I could remember a lot of things for each of the summers and the

25     things that happened.  I presume that Branko had been in contact with Mr.

Page 24914

 1     Milan Stanic, and he may have asked him to talk to me about what I could

 2     remember.

 3        Q.   And any other meetings or discussions with Milan Stanic or any

 4     members of our Defence team that you recall other than those that you've

 5     mentioned and the most recent one when you came here, obviously, to The

 6     Hague?  Do you remember any other meetings that you may have had with us?

 7        A.   No, I don't.

 8        Q.   I'm going to ask you this -- I'm going to ask you this, sir:  Are

 9     you certain that it was July 14th, 1995, that you were at the Beara house

10     when Branko told you it was Mr. Beara's birthday and that you left

11     subsequent the next day to this trip in Petrovac?  Are you sure about the

12     year and the month?

13        A.   Yes.  I remember it for several reasons.  One of those is because

14     once we learned that Branko would go, I rang up the lady in Petrovac and

15     I told her to secure the fifth bed as well.  While we were at Branco's

16     place, I like to go out frequently, and I suggested that we should go

17     out.  It was a Friday, and on Fridays and Saturdays we usually went out.

18     We discussed it a bit, and then we decided not to go out but, rather, to

19     try and save some money for the vacation.  I remember it being a Friday

20     and that the next day, Saturday evening, we left.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic, did the witness not say his vacation

22     was between 16th July and 1st of August?

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  Initially, I think he said -- and I'm -- from my

24     notes, I'm going the 16th through the 31st.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Page 46, line 19.

Page 24915

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes.  I'll clarify the issue because --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:

 4        Q.   Now, you stated that your vacation was from the 16th through the

 5     31st of July, correct?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.  I didn't count the 15th because that's when we set

 7     off.  The first day of vacation was the 16th.  We arrived at the seaside

 8     on the 16th.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   I'm going to show you a couple of pictures and before I do, how

12     did we -- strike that.  Do you remember meeting with me at the Hotel

13     Balkan restaurant and I asking you to see if you have any pictures or

14     anything that could help us further understand and appreciate the fact

15     that the vacation that you are dealing with and this meeting that you --

16     or this encounter with Mr. Beara in July of 1995 occurred?  Do you

17     remember us discussing that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   And then what did you tell me, sir?  Do you remember what you

20     told me?

21        A.   I remember.  I think I said I supposed I had pictures because I

22     had pictures from most of my vacations, and I have a few of them with me

23     here.  I thought I had more, but some have gotten lost on the way, I

24     guess, but this is what I have left.

25        Q.   And then I asked you to give me those pictures, correct?

Page 24916

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And then a couple days or a day or two later, we met again in the

 3     Balkan Hotel, and you gave me those five photographs, right?

 4        A.   No.  We agreed that I should bring them.  On the first occasion,

 5     I didn't have them with me and I couldn't locate all of them, and I

 6     handed them over to you just now.  I tried locating some other

 7     photographs with the twins on them, but I wasn't able to.

 8        Q.   If we can just have you for the record, with the Court's

 9     permission and the usher's assistance, go through ever so briefly these

10     pictures to determine whether or not these are the ones you gave me and

11     what they depict.

12             Mr. Kerkez, if I may as proceed as they are placing the

13     photographs on the ELMO.  Are these the five photographs that you gave me

14     which reflect that you and Branko Beara and others were in Petrovac in

15     1995?

16        A.   Yes, the first photograph is at the Perazica Dol beach.  From

17     left to right, we see a guy we met there from Zajecar.  In the middle

18     standing in the blue swimming suit is Branko; next to him, Boris Cukic;

19     down left, that's me; then Emil Cukic and Vukasin Coveljic, this -- the

20     beach some 2 and a half kilometres away from Petrovac next to the As

21     Hotel.

22        Q.   Okay.  And we're going to mark these as evidence.  I'm not sure

23     if the Court really needs to us to go through every picture.  They're

24     very similar in nature, but I don't think it's necessary, but if the

25     Court wishes.

Page 24917

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Completely up to you, Mr. Ostojic.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, I have no further questions for you.  Thank you very

 4     much.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic, you asked for ten minutes.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, no questions for this witness.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Ms. Nikolic.

 8             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic.  Thank you, madame.

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No questions, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.  Madam Fauveau.

12             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Josse.

14             MR. JOSSE:  Ditto.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa.

16             MR. SARAPA:  No questions, thank you.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  So it's Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you.

19     Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to my friends.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

21        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Kerkez.  My name is Kweku Vanderpuye.  On

22     behalf of the Prosecution, I'm going to put some questions to you in

23     relation to your testimony.  If there's anything I ask you that's not

24     clear to you, just let me know, and I'll do my best to try and rephrase

25     it or restate it in a way that we can better understand one another.

Page 24918

 1             Now, Mr. Ostojic just showed you a few photographs.  Well,

 2     actually, just one but I understand there are five photographs that you

 3     managed to find concerning this vacation.  And with respect to those

 4     photographs, I notice that you are actually depicted in a couple.  So

 5     with respect to those photographs, can you tell us who took them?

 6        A.   I don't know.  Probably a passerby that we asked to take

 7     photographs of us at the Perazica Dol beach.  Well, that's a lot of --

 8     where a lot of people from Belgrade spend their vacation.  We knew a lot

 9     of people there.  We probably asked someone to take photographs of us.

10        Q.   All right.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Do we have the five photographs, please.  If you

12     could place them on the ELMO.

13        Q.   Now, I don't really have a way of identifying these photographs

14     since they're not marked, but this first photograph that's on the ELMO

15     depicts six individuals, and you named them from left to right just a

16     moment ago, right, and that's you depicted in the left bottom corner of

17     that photograph, isn't it?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   All right.  Can we put another photograph on there, please.

20     Thank you very much.  All right.  And can you tell us who the individuals

21     in this photograph are?

22        A.   The same company as on the previous photograph.  The left-hand

23     side guy is the one that I don't know because we met him there, and then

24     there's Emil, Vukasin, Branko, myself, and Boris.  It's between Petrovac

25     and Perazica Dol.  The island is a landmark of Petrovac.

Page 24919

 1        Q.   All right.  And that's you depicted second from the right?

 2        A.   The island is something you can see on every postcard.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And that's you the second from the right in that

 4     photograph, right?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   By the way, it's a landmark.  What's the name of that island?

 7        A.   Excuse me?

 8        Q.   This island is a landmark, you said.  What its name?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I never did.  It is characteristic, however,

10     because it's some 500 metres away from Petrovac.  We tried to swim out to

11     the island on a couple of occasions, but we never managed to.  There's a

12     church there, I think, as well.

13        Q.   Well, you'd been there, you said, three summers in a row, right?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next one.

16        A.   I was there a fourth summer, as well, some five years later with

17     a girlfriend of mine.

18        Q.   Okay.  And you -- is it that you don't recall the name of the

19     islands, or you never learned what its name was?

20        A.   I think it bears the name of a saint, but I don't know.  I never

21     inquired.  I merely liked looking at it from the beach.  I can tell you

22     the names of the bars there, but I can't tell you the name of the island.

23        Q.   Fair enough.  Let's go to the next picture, please.  All right.

24     This one doesn't seem very clear on the ELMO.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you change the angle?

Page 24920

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The three fingers, it was Branko

 2     swimming in the sea holding the camera and taking a picture of us.  That,

 3     I remember distinctly.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 5        Q.   Okay.  Branco's holding the camera and taking the picture; is

 6     that right?

 7        A.   And swimming, yes.

 8        Q.   So those are his fingers there, right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Okay.  And we can go to the next one, please.  All right.  That's

11     you in the middle, isn't it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And who are the two individuals on either side of you?

14        A.   Well, the left-hand side, Boris Cukic, and then Emil Cukic, the

15     right-hand side.  It's in front of the house where we spent the summer.

16     Yes.

17        Q.   All right.  And where is the house that you spent the summer, by

18     the way?

19        A.   In Petrovac, close to a restaurant which is a well known

20     restaurant.  It's called Voda U Krsu, some 20 metres away from the house.

21        Q.   Is that all of them?  Okay.  What I've noticed about these

22     photographs is that they're not -- they don't share the same dimensions.

23     So what I wanted to ask you is, are these photographs that were developed

24     from different films?

25        A.   No.  It was one roll, but these pictures may have been developed

Page 24921

 1     -- or printed in different shops.  I had a lousy camera at the time.  Out

 2     of the 36 photographs, maybe 15 turned out in total.  But it's the same

 3     roll of film; that, I'm sure of.

 4        Q.   You printed the same roll of film in different shops?  Is that

 5     what you are saying?

 6        A.   Yes.  These photographs are the ones I made.  We may have

 7     exchanged each other's photographs, and they may have been printed in

 8     different shops.  These are the ones I was able to find at home.

 9        Q.   No, I understand that.  My question is whether or not you

10     developed these films or perhaps you were given these photographs from

11     somebody else.

12        A.   Yes.  Well, I developed them, but then the twins developed their

13     own, and everyone else did.  I can't tell you exactly which were printed

14     by me.

15        Q.   All right.  Well, with respect to the ones that were printed by

16     you, where did you have them developed?

17        A.   I can't remember, but I remember that I went to the Lipa company

18     because they were cheap.  They were actually the cheapest in Belgrade,

19     somewhere around the Boulevard of the Revolution in Belgrade, if I can

20     remember it well.  Currently, the street name is the Boulevard of King

21     Aleksandar.

22        Q.   And do you remember when you had them developed?

23        A.   Immediately after the end of that holiday.

24        Q.   So that would have been around when, exactly?

25        A.   I suppose it was in August.  I don't think that it was even more

Page 24922

 1     than ten days after.  As soon as we returned I developed them, and I

 2     remember that I was really disappointed to see how many photos actually

 3     turned out well of the whole roll of film.

 4        Q.   All right.  Now, in these photographs, you say this is in 1995,

 5     you would have been 17 years old; is that right?

 6        A.   Correct, yes.

 7        Q.   Your friend Branko, how old was he at that time?

 8        A.   The same age.  The difference between the two of us is two

 9     months.  I was born on the 15th February, and he was born on the 12th of

10     April.

11        Q.   Boris?

12        A.   We were all of the same age.  Boris's birthday is in October,

13     23rd of October.  Actually, the twins were born on the 23rd of October,

14     and Vukasin was born seven days after on the 20th.  We were all peers.

15     We went to the same grade.  We are of the same age.

16        Q.   Now, you were asked a few questions about when it was that you

17     were contacted by the members of the Defence for Mr. Beara.  Do you

18     remember that?

19        A.   I remember that Milan Stanic called me, introduced himself as a

20     lawyer, and we met in mid-April this year in his office.

21        Q.   And where did he call you?  Where were you when you received this

22     call?

23        A.   You mean at the moment when the phone went off or where we met?

24        Q.   No, where the phone went off, where you received the call.

25        A.   I really don't remember.

Page 24923

 1        Q.   Okay.  And did he introduce himself on the telephone when you

 2     spoke to him?

 3        A.   Yes, he introduced himself.  He gave me his first and last names.

 4     He said that he was Branco's father's lawyer and that he would like to

 5     meet with me to talk about the summer 1995.  I suppose that before that

 6     Branko had spoken to him and told him that I remembered that summer.

 7        Q.   All right.  Do you remember the date that he called you?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Do you remember the day of the week that he called you?

10        A.   No.  I remember the time that we met, but I don't remember when

11     he called me.  I know that it was sometime in mid-April that I went to

12     his office, and I believe that he called me just a day before that, and I

13     paid a visit to his office on the 15th of April, as far as I can

14     remember.

15        Q.   Did he explain to you on the telephone when he called you what he

16     wanted to speak to you about in particular?

17        A.   Yes, very briefly.  It was a brief conversation, and I did not

18     find this to be a problem.  Branko is my friend.  I was asked to talk

19     about that summer.  I went, did that without any prior explanation.

20        Q.   Well, let's talk about when you went to meet Mr. Stanic for a

21     little bit.  Do you remember where you went to go meet him?

22        A.   I remember.  I went to his office, which is in the old Merkato

23     building in new Belgrade on the second floor.

24        Q.   Is that on a weekday or a weekend?

25        A.   It was on a weekday.  It was raining.  That's what I remember.

Page 24924

 1        Q.   Was it in the morning or the afternoon?

 2        A.   Around noon.  Around 11, 12, or maybe half past 12, but I know it

 3     was in the middle of the day.

 4        Q.   Do you know where you came from to get to his office?

 5        A.   From home.  Actually, no, no, no, not from home.  It was raining

 6     heavily, so I took my brother by car to Ada Ciganlija where he works as a

 7     diver.  The traffic was very busy on that day.  I had to cross a bridge.

 8     I was delayed in traffic, so I was late for the meeting, I remember.

 9        Q.   All right.  And did you arrive at the meeting by yourself, or did

10     you arrive there with anybody else?

11        A.   On my own.  I parked the car, and I met up with Milan.

12        Q.   And you met him in his office, right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   He hadn't met you before, right?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   So you introduced yourself, I take it; you sat down and you had a

17     conversation with him, right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You sat down; you had a conversation with him, right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   He asked you questions about the summer of 1995, right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Well, what did he ask you?

24        A.   Well, nothing much.  He asked me what I remembered about that

25     particular vacation, and I told him.

Page 24925

 1        Q.   So he asked you in particular about the vacation; is that right?

 2        A.   No.  First we had a cup of coffee, and then I arrived at the

 3     conclusion that Branko and him had already had a conversation because

 4     maybe a week or so before that all of us had sat down and we reminisced

 5     on things such as parties and stuff, and then we also remembered that

 6     holiday that we were there all of us together, Vukasin -- the five of us.

 7     The summer before, that I spent my holiday with Vukasin Coveljic and in

 8     1996 I holidayed with the twins and two other friends from my school,

 9     Miroslav and Dimitrij.  So Branko realised that I remembered some of the

10     details of summer of 1995, and I also remember that I organised a summer

11     holidays in 1996 for some other friends.

12        Q.   How many times have you met Mr. Stanic?

13        A.   Twice.

14        Q.   Twice?

15        A.   Twice.

16        Q.   Because on page 61, line 14, of the transcript you refer to him

17     as "Milan."  Is that how you normally refer to him, by his first name?

18        A.   No, Mr. Milan Stanic.  I never realized I was supposed to give

19     his full name.  I saw him then in his office and then at the Balkan

20     hotel, and Mr. John -- Mr. John Ostojic, rather, was there as well.  In

21     Belgrade when I work that's how I call my superiors.  I call them by

22     their title, Mr. and then their first name, and that's a habit.  So

23     instead of referring to them by their full name, I only use their first

24     names.

25        Q.   Okay.  So you gathered that Mr. Stanic had spoken to Branko Beara

Page 24926

 1     because you had a conversation with Branko Beara and the rest of your

 2     friends a week beforehand talking about this very vacation?

 3        A.   Yes, we discussed that summer as well.

 4        Q.   What did you all recall together about that vacation when you sat

 5     down and talked about it?

 6        A.   We remembered some anecdotes, girls that we met and similar

 7     things, and we also remembered how it hadn't been very difficult for all

 8     of us to get together and spend the holiday together.  It was a very

 9     specific situation because we had not known until the last moment whether

10     Branko would go because there was no bed for him, and finally he ended up

11     on a bunk bed.  We had reserved four beds, and then he decided to join

12     us.  We did not change our reservations because we would have had to pay

13     for that fifth bed, so we made it.

14        Q.   I understand all that.  What I'm asking you is what it is that

15     you discussed when you sat down together and remembered this event

16     together.  You talked about the vacation, right, where you went?

17        A.   I don't know.  We talked about things that we had done.  There

18     were some girls that we liked.  Then every day we went to this Perazica

19     beach.  It was interesting because we made our own meals; we tidied our

20     room.  For five of us together on the ground floor of that house, Branko,

21     for example, liked to have a lie-in, so every morning I would throw

22     grapes at him to wake him up.  That was one of the anecdotes that we

23     shared and remembered in that conversation.

24        Q.   When was the last time you got together with your friends in that

25     way before that conversation?

Page 24927

 1        A.   Before that conversation, we gathered for Branco's birthday.

 2     Branko took us out to the Plastic Disco Club on the 12th of April.

 3        Q.   So on the 12th of April, you went out for Branco's birthday;

 4     sometime after that, you had this conversation?

 5        A.   It was possible even before that because we get together at least

 6     once a week.  We get together in a pub, in my favourite pub where I

 7     always invite them to.  Now, whether we had that conversation on a day

 8     before or after that evening -- well, whenever we go out we have a couple

 9     of drinks and we always talk about similar things.

10        Q.   All right.  So the time you got together before you had this

11     conversation, did you talk about these same things then as well?

12        A.   We always talk about the places we went to, the girls that we

13     meet.  I really can't remember the exact date when we mentioned that

14     holiday, but we often talk about holidays.  The next year I holidayed

15     with the twins, but over the past five or six years we'll go spend

16     holidays with our girlfriends, so our get-togethers during the summer

17     have been somewhat reduced, and we miss that, so we like to go back to

18     the days when we could spend holidays together.

19        Q.   No, I understand that, Mr. Kerkez, and I'm not asking you about

20     habits and things that you usually do.  I'm asking about a very specific

21     thing, and what I'm asking you about this particular is, well, you say

22     that you met Mr. Stanic and before that you had a conversation with

23     Branko Beara concerning this vacation, and I'm asking you now about the

24     time, any time, or the most recent time that you met with Branko Beara

25     and your friends before that conversation.  That's what I'm asking you.

Page 24928

 1     So I'd like to know if you can recall when was the last time you met

 2     Branko Beara before you had the conversation that was before you went to

 3     Mr. Stanic's office?

 4        A.   I understand what you are asking me.  The last time I was with

 5     them, on the 12th of April in the evening in the Plastic Disco Club, but

 6     I can't remember when I spoke with Branko about that specific summer.  I

 7     only concluded when Stanic had invited me for a conversation that Branko

 8     must have told him that I remembered the details of that holiday.  But

 9     when it was that I actually talked about that with Branko, I really can't

10     remember because there were several such conversations, so it's

11     impossible for me to remember the exact date when I mentioned that

12     particular holiday with Branko.  And it was not just me who talked about

13     that.  There were the five of us, and it could have been even in March,

14     and Branko could have remembered that and spoke to the lawyer and then

15     the lawyer invited me to talk to him about that.

16        Q.   All right.  So -- all right.  You met Mr. Stanic.  Mr. Stanic

17     asked you certain questions.  You say he asked you about that summer,

18     right, summer of 1995?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And what in particular did he ask you?

21        A.   Well, it was a relaxed conversation.  He asked me what I

22     remember.  I really didn't know what was important, but I provided him

23     with everything that I remembered about that particular summer.

24        Q.   Well, did he ask you in particular about July 1995 or June of

25     1995 or May or August of 1995?  What specifically about the summer did he

Page 24929

 1     ask you?

 2        A.   Well, nothing much.  He asked me when I went on holiday and

 3     whether I remembered that, and I said I remembered exactly when I

 4     returned because it's the same every year.  This year, for example, I

 5     spent my holiday with a girlfriend, and I remembered [as interpreted] on

 6     the 1st of August, and I remember this particular holiday because there

 7     were some problems with the five of us going, and I am very good with

 8     remembering people's birthdays, telephone numbers.  I was the organiser

 9     of that particular holiday.  I was in charge of arranging the

10     accommodation.  I knew that lady in Petrovac who was the landlady.  I

11     phoned her, and it took several conversations for me to confirm how many

12     of us were finally coming.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  Sorry, I think I heard and we can always check it,

15     on page 66, line 7, the witness said:  "This year, for example, I spent

16     my holiday with a girlfriend, and I returned on the 1st of August."  But

17     it says "I remembered on the first of August."

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you so much, Mr. Ostojic.  Yes, Mr.

19     Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   At the time you were living with your parents, right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   The time that you met Mr. Stanic, you were living at home?

24        A.   I live with my brother and my father.  My mother died three years

25     ago in 2005.

Page 24930

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, at the time in 1995 that you discussed with Mr.

 2     Stanic, you were living at home, right?

 3        A.   Yes.  I lived with my parents and my brother.

 4        Q.   And you told him that, right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And he asked for their names, right?

 7        A.   Yes.  Branislav and Ljubisa are my parents.

 8        Q.   Well, I'm asking you whether or not Mr. Stanic asked you those

 9     questions.

10        A.   Yes, he did.  I introduced myself and, yes, he did ask me.

11        Q.   He asked you how to get ahold of them, right?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   He didn't ask to get ahold of the people you were living with

14     back in 1995 when you took that vacation?  He didn't ask you that

15     question?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   All right.  And you didn't give him that information either,

18     right?

19        A.   Information about what?

20        Q.   How to reach your brother and whoever else you were living with

21     in 1995 --

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   -- when you say you went on vacation?

24        A.   No, we did not talk about that.  I only talked about the holiday

25     and what I remembered of that holiday.

Page 24931

 1        Q.   Okay.  When did you finish school that summer?  When did you get

 2     out?

 3        A.   Around the 20th of June.  That's the same every year.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please not overlap and make

 5     pauses between answers and questions.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Towards the -- mid-June all the

 7     marks are already in place, so nothing much goes on on the three or four

 8     last day of the school, and it's very difficult to remember the specific

 9     date when the school ends every year, but it's around the 20th of June.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:

11        Q.   All right.  But you don't remember now that I'm speaking to you,

12     right?

13        A.   The last day of the school that year?

14        Q.   Yeah.  The last day of the school year in July -- in 1995.

15        A.   No, I can't remember.

16        Q.   How long did this meeting last with Mr. Stanic in April when you

17     met with him?

18        A.   Not more than an hour.  We exchanged words about that summer

19     holiday.  I told him what I remembered, and then I left.

20        Q.   And when you met with Mr. Stanic, he impressed upon you the

21     importance of the information that you were giving him, didn't he?

22        A.   No, not really.  We just chatted.  We just spoke about some

23     details.  It was only subsequently that I learned why I was supposed to

24     come here.

25        Q.   When is it that you learned why you were supposed to come here?

Page 24932

 1        A.   When I met up with Mr. John Ostojic on the second time round.

 2        Q.   During the time you spoke to Mr. Stanic in April, were you under

 3     the impression that you had to give him everything or tell him everything

 4     that you could remember about that summer?

 5        A.   It was something like a spontaneous, relaxed chat.  I did not

 6     feel hard-pressed to tell things.  I just remembered things and told Mr.

 7     Stanic what I remembered about that summer.

 8        Q.   All right.  But were you -- let's say were you careful about what

 9     you said?  Were you thinking about what you were telling him so as not to

10     mislead him or give information incorrectly?

11        A.   No.  I did not give it too much thought.  I just told him how

12     things were and what I remembered about that particular summer.

13        Q.   Did you tell him at the time that you met him in April that you

14     had met with Branko Beara not a week before that and discussed the same

15     thing with him?  Did you tell Mr. Stanic that?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Did you tell him that you discussed it amongst your other friends

18     as well?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Did you ever tell Mr. Stanic that you had a discussion with

21     Branko Beara about the subject matter of your testimony here today, which

22     is this vacation in July of 1995?  Did you ever tell Mr. Stanic about

23     that?

24        A.   Mr. Stanic invited me, introduced himself, and when I went to his

25     office I assumed that he had already seen Branko, that Branko told him

Page 24933

 1     that I remembered that vacation, and that that was the reason why he had

 2     invited me to come for this meeting in his office.  That's how I

 3     understood the whole situation.  Otherwise, how would Mr. Stanic even

 4     knew that I existed had Branko not told him that we were friends and that

 5     we spent one summer together?

 6        Q.   You make a very good point.  Unfortunately, it doesn't answer my

 7     question.  My question is, did you tell Mr. Stanic that you met with

 8     Branko Beara before you met with him?  Did you tell him that?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   And did you ever tell him that?  To this day that I'm talking to

11     you now, did you ever tell him that you met with Branko Beara not a week

12     before you met with him?

13        A.   Yes.  I told him just like I have told you that we get together

14     quite often, at least once a week, and I never made it a point of telling

15     him that I might have seen him two or three days prior to our meeting.

16     At that time I did not find this important, just like I don't see any

17     importance of that now.  My conversation with Mr. Stanic was a relaxed,

18     spontaneous exchange.

19        Q.   All right.  You met at a later point with Mr. Ostojic, right?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And when did that occur?

22        A.   In the second half of May.

23        Q.   Second half of May of this year, 2008, right?

24        A.   This year, yes.  All of this has happened this year, my meeting

25     with Mr. Stanic, my meeting with Mr. Ostojic.

Page 24934

 1        Q.   Well, let me put the same question to you, then, again:  Did you

 2     ever tell Mr. Ostojic that you met with Branko Beara and discussed with

 3     him this vacation before you met with him, Mr. Ostojic?

 4        A.   I did not tell him because I assumed that Mr. Ostojic knew that

 5     we had this habit of getting together and seeing each other every now and

 6     then.

 7        Q.   Well, with all due respect --

 8        A.   It's only logical.

 9        Q.   When you say you have this habit of getting together, what you

10     are talking about is you have a habit of getting together and talking

11     about a specific vacation in July 1995?  Is that what you're saying?

12        A.   No, that's not what I'm saying.

13        Q.   And so does it make any sense that Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Stanic

14     have assumed that you've discussed these issues just because you get

15     together?

16        A.   I see where you are coming from, but what I'm saying is that I

17     don't really know when it was when this subject of a vacation came up in

18     one of our get-togethers, and I suppose that after that Branko spoke to

19     Milan Stanic who then called me.  I suppose that Branko said to Mr. Milan

20     Stanic that he had seen me and that we had discussed things, summer

21     holidays included, and that's why Stanic called me.  And that's why I'm

22     saying that I never saw the need to mention to anybody that the subject

23     of summer 1995 came up in any particular conversation, and it did.

24        Q.   So but for your testimony here today - today - nobody knows how

25     many times you've spoken to Branko Beara and the rest of your friends

Page 24935

 1     about the subject matter of your testimony, which is this vacation,

 2     because you didn't think to mention it to anybody; is that what you are

 3     saying?

 4        A.   I apologise.  I really don't understand; what are you asking me?

 5        Q.   How many times have you spoken to Branko Beara about this

 6     vacation that you have not told either Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Stanic, or

 7     anybody else?

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think he mischaracterizes the testimony and the

10     evidence that we've heard today.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't think so, but let me hear Mr. Vanderpuye.

12     Can you explain where he is mischaracterising the testimony according to

13     you, Mr. Ostojic, because frankly -- I mean, I'm not saying that you are

14     not right but I can't see --

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  Maybe I'm having the same trouble as the witness

16     understanding the question, so -- with all due respect.  The way the

17     question is put, there's two of them there, although the second one here

18     says:  "How many times have you spoken to Branko Beara about this

19     vacation that you have not told either Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Stanic, or anyone

20     else?"  I'll object to the form of the question.  I don't understand the

21     question, either, but I think -- I think I know what he's trying to say,

22     but I think it could be broken down so we can all understand it, if I can

23     say that, with all due respect.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm not really troubled with the question.  If you

25     follow up the previous questions and answers, particularly the one where

Page 24936

 1     he explained why he didn't bother to mention it.  Yes.  Mr. Vanderpuye,

 2     anyway, if you can be, perhaps, more clear.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'll try TO --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you could rephrase the question.  I don't know.

 5     I'm not forcing you to because I think it's clear enough but --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I understand.  If you are

 7     asking me how many times I may have spoken with Branko about that summer

 8     in the past 13 years, it could have been over 20 times.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   All right.  Did you mention that to Mr. Stanic at any point

11     before today?

12        A.   In that sense, yes.

13        Q.   And did you mention that to Mr. Ostojic before today?

14        A.   That I had talked about it with my friends, reminiscing our

15     summers?

16        Q.   No, no.  Specific details about it, when it was taken, where you

17     went, what you did, what bars you went to, what girls you saw, that kind

18     of stuff.

19        A.   Yes.  Mr. Ostojic knows that too.  I told that to Mr. Ostojic.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think it's time for the break.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have a 25-minute break.  Thank you.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 24937

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Kerkez.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   All right.  I think when we left off I had just asked you about

 5     the information that you had provided to Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Stanic

 6     regarding your conversations with Branko Beara about this vacation.  Now,

 7     when you met Mr. Stanic in April of this year, you told him about the

 8     vacation, right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You told him where you went, right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You told him how long you went for, right?

13        A.   Right.

14        Q.   You told him that you went there by bus, right?

15        A.   Right.

16        Q.   You told him that you left at night and you arrived in the

17     morning in Petrovac, right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you told him that you were at Branko's house the day before

20     you left for your trip, right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you tell him that you were there for about an hour or two

23     hours, right, two or two and a half hours?

24        A.   That is correct.

25        Q.   And you told him in particular that you had met Mr. Beara and his

Page 24938

 1     wife, right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You told him that there were other people that were there, right?

 4        A.   That is right.

 5        Q.   People that you didn't know?

 6        A.   Right.

 7        Q.   And you told him that you left there without Branko, right, on

 8     that day?

 9        A.   He stayed at home.

10        Q.   That's right.  You left his house and he stayed at home with his

11     father and his mother and the other people in the house, right?

12        A.   That is right.

13        Q.   You told Mr. Stanic all of that in April of this year, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You told him that you were at that house on the 14th of July

16     1995, right?

17        A.   Right.

18        Q.   Now, when you had this conversation with your friends before you

19     met Mr. Stanic in April, you talked about the vacation that you had,

20     right?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   The vacation in 1995, in July 1995, right?

23        A.   [No verbal response]

24        Q.   Sir, we don't -- I don't have an answer on the record, I don't

25     think.  If you could repeat your answer it would be, I think, helpful.

Page 24939

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   And you talked about the bars that you went to and the girls that

 3     you saw, right?

 4        A.   Right.

 5        Q.   And you also talked about the fact that you were at Branko's

 6     house the day before you went on vacation, right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And you talked about the fact that you were at his house while

 9     his dad was there and his mom was there, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And that there was a party going on or there were other people in

12     the house, right?  You talked about that when you met with them before

13     you met Mr. Stanic, right?

14        A.   Yes, but it wasn't a party.  There were some older people sitting

15     there.  Maybe they were around 50 -- their 50s or so.  I just said hello

16     and followed Branko to his room.

17        Q.   And you talked about other vacations that you had together,

18     right?

19        A.   You mean with my friends?

20        Q.   With your friends.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And what vacation did you talk about with them when you met with

23     them before seeing Mr. Stanic other than the one in 1995?  What vacation

24     did you talk about with them?

25        A.   I spoke with my friends about the summer of 1996, for instance,

Page 24940

 1     because all of us were there that year, save for Branko, and there were

 2     another two guys from the school.  We were at the same house, and we had

 3     a good time that year as well.

 4        Q.   So you went to the same place in Petrovac, right?

 5        A.   Yes.  It was my third time to be in that house.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And when did you leave for that vacation?

 7        A.   The same period, towards the end of August.  But the next year we

 8     were there for about ten days because it became more expensive.  Rather

 9     than a night being 10 German marks, it was 15, so we went later that

10     year.

11        Q.   Do you remember what day, what date you went?

12        A.   I can't recall the exact date, but I do remember being at the

13     preparations in my club on the 1st of August; therefore, it must have

14     been the end of July.

15        Q.   Right.  Well, do you remember what you were doing the day before

16     you left in 1996?

17        A.   I don't.  I did see the same guys I spent the summer with during

18     the day, and we arranged who was going to take what, who was going to

19     take food, ball, and we were at Dimitri's place in Sarajevska Street.  He

20     spent that summer with us, but I don't remember the exact date.

21        Q.   Okay.  Let me just bounce back to 1995 for a minute, then.  Do

22     you remember what day you came back from Petrovac?

23        A.   It was a Saturday.  It was exactly two weeks.  I wanted to be

24     back on Sunday to have a rest and start my practice on Monday.

25        Q.   Okay.  Did you come back with all of your friends on that

Page 24941

 1     Saturday?

 2        A.   Yes.  We had a return ticket from Belgrade, and we all headed

 3     back together.

 4        Q.   Okay.  When you went down to Petrovac in the first place, you

 5     said you called a lady in advance to book a room or an apartment, right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What was her name?

 8        A.   I don't remember.  I did have her name and phone number jotted

 9     down in an address book, but it was then.  I don't really remember it.  I

10     was back in 2003 with my girlfriend, but we didn't stay with that lady.

11        Q.   You don't remember her first name?

12        A.   I don't.  I only remember that the house was enormous and that

13     one half the house belonged to one brother and the other half to the

14     other brother, and the lady was one of the brothers' wife.  I remember

15     where the house was, but I can't recall her first or last name.

16        Q.   Do you know the address of the house?

17        A.   No.  Visually, I know where it is, but I don't know what the

18     address is.  Petrovac is a small place.  There may be three or four

19     streets with a name there altogether.

20        Q.   Well, if I ask it this way, do you know the name of the street

21     the house is on?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Okay.  When you went there in 1995, that wasn't the first time

24     that you had been to that house; isn't that right?

25        A.   It was the second time.

Page 24942

 1        Q.   And you've been there, you say, on how many occasions since?

 2        A.   The next year, 1996, it was the third time.  After that I didn't

 3     spend summers there.  In the meantime I lost her phone number.

 4     Otherwise, I liked Petrovac as a place since the beach is towards the

 5     open sea, and when I was there in 2003 with my girlfriend, I couldn't

 6     find that lady's phone number, and we simply went to Petrovac and found

 7     accommodation there and then.

 8        Q.   I see.  So you were actually looking for that number in 2003; is

 9     that what you are saying?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you believed you had it --

12        A.   Because I liked the house and the accommodation.

13        Q.   And you believed you had that number even though the last time

14     you had been there was in 1996?

15        A.   Yes.  I hoped so, because I tried to keep my notebooks and stuff,

16     but I couldn't find that piece of information.  When I was down in

17     Petrovac, I did go to the very house, but they did not have any rooms

18     available anymore, and we went to another house, which was further up the

19     hill.

20        Q.   Now, during your meetings with Mr. Ostojic, of course, you let

21     him know this, right, that is, that you couldn't remember the name of the

22     lady whose house --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You told him that?

25        A.   I did.

Page 24943

 1        Q.   And you told him where the house was as far as you could

 2     remember?

 3        A.   No.  I recalled now where it was.  I told you that it was next to

 4     the restaurant Voda U Krsu, but as far as Mr. Stanic goes, I only told

 5     him it was in Petrovac.

 6        Q.   Okay.  What about as far as Mr. Ostojic goes?  Did you tell him

 7     it was next to this restaurant when you met him?

 8        A.   Mr. Ostojic?  Who is that?  No, I didn't share that detail with

 9     him, that the house was next to the restaurant.

10        Q.   Didn't he ask you about where the house was?

11        A.   No, it's a small place.

12        Q.   I understand that, but I assume it has more than one house,

13     right?

14        A.   Yes, but I didn't share that detail.

15        Q.   And he didn't ask you; is that right?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   And he didn't ask you for the woman's name, either, right?

18        A.   He did, but I couldn't recall it.

19        Q.   And when you met with Mr. Ostojic in May of 2008 at this Hotel

20     Balkan, how long did you meet with him?

21        A.   Not more than an hour, perhaps three-quarters of an hour.

22        Q.   And when you met with Mr. Ostojic, he impressed upon you how

23     important your testimony was, right, or the information, I should say,

24     that you were giving him was, right?

25        A.   Yes.  But if I may add, there may have been another interesting

Page 24944

 1     thing.  The reason why I remember that particular summer is this:

 2     Whenever we find -- we meet, we called Branko's father Pape between --

 3     inside our circle, and we called him that because he spent a lot of time

 4     in Dalmatia and it's a common nickname there.  Therefore, we always refer

 5     to him as Pape, and so we did on that occasion as well.  And Vukasin

 6     keeps going back to that detail and telling us about in.

 7        Q.   Vukasin keeps going back to that detail and telling you about it

 8     when?  When did he tell you about it?

 9        A.   Whenever we tried to recall that summer since, as I said already,

10     that we didn't know if Branko was going to go.  His father brought the

11     money, and instead of bringing fresh food Branko had tin cans from the

12     army, and he kept offering us that.  We kept refusing.  He had a military

13     sack, and quite often Vukasin would tease him, oh, it was Pape who

14     brought you the money.

15        Q.   Well, since you met Mr. Stanic in April, have you spoken to

16     Branko or Vukasin or Boris or Emil?

17        A.   About that?

18        Q.   About that.

19        A.   Yes.  But it was casual conversation, and I told them that I met

20     with an attorney.  We are really good friends, and we share all sorts of

21     things, and I did mention I had that conversation.

22        Q.   Did Branko ever tell you that he met with an attorney?

23        A.   He didn't, but since it is his father who is here, I presumed he

24     had contacts with attorneys.  Otherwise, Branko didn't like discussing

25     his father much.

Page 24945

 1        Q.   All right.  And how many times did you converse with your friends

 2     about this subject after you met Mr. Stanic?

 3        A.   Only once.  Perhaps right after I saw Mr. Stanic.  We don't talk

 4     about such things.  We talk about other things.

 5        Q.   You don't talk about things like what, like meeting lawyers?

 6        A.   Yes.  Well, we mention things.  We share what is going on at our

 7     jobs or with our girlfriends, but after that we were talking about other

 8     new things.

 9        Q.   All right.  And when you met with your friends and talked -- and

10     told them that you had met with an attorney, what specifically did you

11     tell them that you spoke about with the attorney?

12        A.   Nothing.  I just told him I saw this attorney, he is Branko's

13     father's attorney, and I told him about the summer we spent together.

14        Q.   Any of your friends asked you about this attorney, what did he

15     want to know, was it interesting, was it boring?  They didn't ask you

16     anything about it?

17        A.   In principle, no.  I told them about it.  I told them

18     Attorney-At-Law Milan Stanic called me because I presumed he had talked

19     to Branko, and Branko in our conversation following the event when we met

20     in early April probably talked to the attorney, and he told him that I

21     recall things.  When we were going back to that summer, I seemed to be

22     the one who remembered the most out of the five.

23        Q.   Out of the five including Branko, are you saying?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You remember more than Branko does about this vacation and where

Page 24946

 1     you were before you left and everything?

 2        A.   Most likely.

 3        Q.   Well, you say you seem to be the one that remembers the most.

 4     Why do you say that?

 5        A.   Since he mentioned to Milan Stanic that I can recall many

 6     details, I presume that his recollection is poorer than mine.  That's why

 7     I said probably or likely.

 8        Q.   Well, you've talked to him about this vacation, right?

 9        A.   With Branko?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   As I said, from time to time we go back to that vacation, but

12     after I spoke with the attorney, we didn't discuss that particularly.

13     For some reason of his, he noticed that I can recall many details.  He

14     probably gave my phone number to the attorney, and in turn he called me.

15        Q.   Having discussed this with him, what kind of details do you

16     remember that he doesn't?

17        A.   For example, the date when we left, for example.  He couldn't

18     recall that.

19        Q.   He doesn't remember the date that you left?

20        A.   He doesn't.

21        Q.   He doesn't remember that the date that you left according to you

22     was the day after his father's birthday, right?

23        A.   Well, he remembers that, but he doesn't remember some details to

24     the extent I do.  For example, he doesn't remember the moment when we

25     were sitting in a pizzeria and after a beer he sort of started staring

Page 24947

 1     into the distance and started crying because he said it reminded him so

 2     much of Split.  He doesn't remember the name of the girl he liked at the

 3     time.

 4        Q.   All right.  So Branko, Mr. Beara's son who stayed home on the

 5     14th with his father, doesn't remember that he left that summer the next

 6     day, right?

 7        A.   No, he remembers that for sure because his father brought him the

 8     money the day before the travel.  He really wanted to go with us.  Ever

 9     since he had left Split he had not seen the sea.  I don't think he would

10     forget that, but he forgot some other details which happened during the

11     vacation itself.  Your first question was whether my recollection of the

12     vacation is better than Branko's, and I said most likely having in mind

13     these things.

14        Q.   Well, what you said is:  "For example, he doesn't recall the date

15     when we left."  That would be the 15th of July according to what you've

16     testified to today, right?

17        A.   Well, it was at the moment when I told you that he, as I said,

18     probably doesn't remember the vacation better than I do, but each one of

19     us friends remembers things.  For example, I know that it was on the 14th

20     in the evening.  We liked going out on Friday, but I couldn't press them

21     into it because Branko said he still didn't have the money, et cetera,

22     et cetera.  I remember all that, and he shared it with me when I joined

23     him in his room.  The rest of the guys joined with him because they

24     didn't want him to be left out.  I was the one who organised that

25     vacation.  I booked the room, and we had to go back for our sports

Page 24948

 1     preparations.  That's how I recall the date.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kerkez, isn't one of the reasons that you recall the date

 3     because Branko didn't go out with you because he said that it was his

 4     father's birthday?  Isn't that one of the reasons why you recall the

 5     date?

 6        A.   No, that's not the only reason.  I remember it being a Friday.  I

 7     remember we spent a fortnight at the sea.  One of the things I remember

 8     was that Branko didn't want to go out with us because he had not seen his

 9     father for quite a long time and he wanted to stay with him, and they had

10     guests.

11        Q.   I didn't ask you if it was the only reason.  I asked you if it

12     was one of the reasons.  Did Branko tell you on the day that you went to

13     his house that it was his father's birthday?  Did he tell you that?

14        A.   Yes, he did.

15        Q.   And so your testimony is that he couldn't recall the date when

16     you left, which was the next day, right?

17        A.   That's not right.  Some five minutes ago, I told you that I

18     remember more things about the vacation than Branko does.

19        Q.   That's right, and I asked you for an example, right?  And you

20     said:  "For example" --

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   -- "the date when we left."  He couldn't recall that, right?

23        A.   That is right.  I did say that, but then I corrected myself

24     because all five of us frequently remember that.

25        Q.   When you met with Mr. Ostojic in May of 2008, you met with him

Page 24949

 1     for about an hour, right?

 2        A.   Right.

 3        Q.   And did he take notes about what you were telling him?

 4        A.   Yes.  He was writing it down.

 5        Q.   And he wrote down what you told him, right?

 6        A.   He wrote down some things with a pencil on a plain sheet of

 7     paper.  He would jot down a word or two.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And what about when you met Mr. Stanic in April 2008?  Did

 9     he write down what you were saying?

10        A.   No, he did not keep any notes as far as I recall.  We only

11     talked.

12        Q.   Okay.  And you met with Mr. Ostojic just recently, right?

13        A.   Right.  In August.

14        Q.   In August.  And what did you discuss with him when you met with

15     him the second time?

16        A.   Specifically, he told me that I will have to come here to testify

17     about the summer.

18        Q.   All right.  And in particular about the 14th of July, right?

19        A.   Right.

20        Q.   Your recollections of being in the Beara house on the 14th of

21     July, right?

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   And did you tell him at that time that you had a conversation

24     with Branko about these particular circumstances?

25        A.   I don't understand the question.  Whether I talked to him on that

Page 24950

 1     day, the 14th of July, or --

 2        Q.   I'll rephrase the question.  Did you tell Mr. Ostojic in August

 3     or in May that you had had a conversation with Branko Beara after you met

 4     with Mr. Stanic about these circumstances?  Did you tell Mr. Ostojic

 5     that?

 6        A.   Not directly, but Mr. Ostojic must have presumed that we talked

 7     about it since we hang out together frequently.

 8        Q.   When you say "not directly," does that mean, no, you didn't tell

 9     him that?

10        A.   I didn't tell him that.

11        Q.   Did you tell Mr. Ostojic that Branko could not recall the events

12     that you could recall?

13        A.   I did not because, to repeat, my presumption is that Mr. Milan

14     Stanic got in touch with me because Branko estimated that I could recall

15     the most details of the five.  That's probably the same reason why I

16     later met Mr. Ostojic.

17        Q.   Was that what Mr. Stanic told you?  Did he tell you that?

18        A.   What?  That Branko had given him my phone number or what?

19        Q.   No, that Branko estimated that you could recall the most details

20     of the five of you?  Did he tell you that?

21        A.   No, he didn't tell me that.  That is my assumption, and I usually

22     remember more than anybody else when it comes to certain things.

23        Q.   Well, do you remember more than the other friends that you have

24     in common, like Boris and Emil?  Do you remember more than them about

25     this summer of July 1995?

Page 24951

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   All right.  Well, what kinds of things do you remember that they

 3     don't about this trip?

 4        A.   Well, let me tell you why.  I was the main organiser of the whole

 5     trip, and they just end up and had a good time.  I bought their bus

 6     tickets and reserved the room, and they just met me at the departure

 7     points, so I suppose that some of those things they can't remember

 8     because they were not important.  They just are not in the position to

 9     remember, and as for what happened while we were there on the coast, I

10     suppose that all of us remember more or less the same things.  I was very

11     heavily involved in the organisation, much more than any of them, and

12     that's why I remember those things particularly well.

13        Q.   Did they ever tell you that they couldn't remember the date that

14     you left?

15        A.   As I say, we did not talk much after my conversation with Mr.

16     Stanic.  I told them that I met up with the lawyer, but we did not talk

17     much.  I never spoke with them about the possibly -- the possibility of

18     them remembering the date.  I consider that an opportunity to ask them.

19     It didn't come up.

20        Q.   All right.  But it came up before you met Mr. Stanic, and it just

21     so happened that during the course of this conversation, a week before

22     you met Mr. Stanic, that you discussed this vacation in 1995 and that you

23     stopped at Branko's house and met Branko's mother and father.  That just

24     happened to come up; is that right?

25        A.   No, I didn't mention it then.  I just assumed that Branko

Page 24952

 1     estimated that I had remembered more than anybody, and when Mr. Stanic

 2     asked me, I gave him all the details, not in the way I normally talk to

 3     my friends because when I talk to my friends it's not a

 4     question-and-answer session.  It's a spontaneous, relaxed conversation.

 5     When you get together to your friends, are you quizzed or do you expect

 6     to have to answer questions from them?  I suppose that you talk

 7     spontaneously in a relaxed manner.

 8        Q.   Yes, indeed I do.  I'm glad you asked.  But how is it that when

 9     you get together with your friends and talk about and reminisce about the

10     past, you just happen to come up with a conversation that concerns the

11     subject matter of your testimony and a meeting that comes up a week

12     later?

13        A.   I really did not select the moment when we will talk about that.

14     It so happens we have a beer, we get involved in a conversation about the

15     times past.  I don't know when Branko had got in touch with Milan Stanic.

16     I only know that Milan Stanic asked me to come to his office to talk

17     about that particular summer, and during that conversation I shared with

18     him some details of that summer.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  How much more do you have?

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Not that much more, Your Honour.  I think about

23     -- well, we're done in 10 minutes, right?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, I think it is.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think I can finish in 10 minutes.

Page 24953

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is there re-examination?  Not that you know of.

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  Not likely, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 7        Q.   When Branko called you to come over to his house in July - this

 8     is just before you left - where were you when you got this call?

 9        A.   At home.  There were no mobile phones at the time.  I was home,

10     and the distance between our two houses is maybe ten minutes.  He asked

11     me to come over, and I walked to his place, and then when I got there he

12     told me that he would be joining us on that holiday.

13        Q.   Did he invite anybody else over, any of Your other friends?

14        A.   Yes, yes.  Boris, Emil, and Vukasin were also there.

15        Q.   So those two were also at the house at the same time as you?

16        A.   Actually, three.

17        Q.   Okay.  They were all at the house at the same time as you, right?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   They all met Mr. Beara, right?

20        A.   I suppose so.  Well, I was the first one to arrive there, and we

21     waited for the others to turn up.  They live a bit further away.  I don't

22     know whether they spoke to the parents or whether Branko opened the door

23     and took them immediately to his room.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, they were in the house at the same time as

25     Mr. Beara, right?

Page 24954

 1        A.   Which Mr. Beara?  They were both there.  We were all there at the

 2     same time.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4        A.   Just joking.  Yes, we were all in the house.  We were in Branko's

 5     room, the five of them, and then in the living-room and on the terrace.

 6     Mr. and Mrs. Beara were entertaining their guests.

 7        Q.   All right.  And when you met Mr. Beara, what was he wearing?

 8        A.   I really can't remember.  I believe that he had short sleeves and

 9     short trousers.  It was summer, after all, but I really can't remember.

10        Q.   All right.  And what were they doing when you arrived at the

11     apartment?

12        A.   Branko answered the door, and maybe two steps behind I saw his

13     father standing.  I suppose he was also expecting somebody.  I greeted

14     Branko's father.  I had not seen him in a long time.  We exchanged

15     pleasantries.  He was always in a good mood.  He was always joking.  He

16     was laughing at something.  I spent maybe a couple of minutes in casual

17     conversation with him, and then Branko took me to his room.

18        Q.   Well, when was the time that you saw him before that time?  When

19     was the time you last saw him?

20        A.   I really can't remember.  I did see him every now and then when

21     he was in Belgrade.

22        Q.   All right.  So you don't remember the time you saw him before

23     that day, right?

24        A.   I hadn't seen him in a long time, so when I saw him that time

25     around, I was taken by surprise.  I asked him how he was doing.  I

Page 24955

 1     suppose I had not seen him for maybe two or three months, even.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3        A.   Well, truth be told, I wasn't in their house every day.

 4        Q.   Now, you've been to that house, I assume, on a number of

 5     occasions, right?

 6        A.   Yes, quite often.

 7        Q.   You know the house very well, right?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   Had anything in the house changed since the last time you were

10     there?

11        A.   Has anything changed since the last time or had something

12     changed?  Well, things have changed over the 10 or 15 years that they've

13     lived there but not much.  There is, however, major change.  They laid

14     laminate floor in the apartment since they first moved in, but that's

15     about all.

16        Q.   Perhaps my question was a little inartful.  Had anything in the

17     house changed before the time you were last there and the time that you

18     were there and you saw Mr. Beara and his wife and the guests, et cetera?

19     Had anything changed, furniture or things like that?  Anything change?

20        A.   No, no.  They have old furniture.  I believe that they had moved

21     it from Split when they arrived in Belgrade, and they still have that

22     same furniture.  The rooms are the same; the walls are the same.  Nothing

23     has changed since they first moved in.

24        Q.   All right.  When you got back from your vacation you went to your

25     training, you said, right?  This is handball training.

Page 24956

 1        A.   We arrived at the weekend.  I took a day to rest.  My then-coach

 2     Pera Lazarevic, an Olympian, had the same system.  He started

 3     preparations on the 1st of September.  Since the 1st of September was a

 4     weekend, we started on Monday.  There was a competition to be held soon,

 5     and we started our preparations on the first Monday after the 1st of

 6     September.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Did you tell Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Stanic that your coach's

 8     name was Pera Lazarevic?  Did you tell them that?

 9        A.   I did.

10        Q.   And you told him that you started on the 1st of September, your

11     training?  You told them that too?

12        A.   The 1st of August.

13        Q.   The 1st of August?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   And they wrote that down?

16        A.   I don't know.  I suppose they did.  I was not watching them take

17     notes.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  Just -- again, I think we were having just a little

20     trouble with the transcript and what he's saying and what the translation

21     is, but we'll look at the tape again and then come back to it at this

22     point, just so the Court knows.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:

24        Q.   And among your friends, are you the only one that's involved in

25     this training?

Page 24957

 1        A.   No, Branko, Bare [phoen], and myself, we were in training

 2     together.  I started practicing handball in 1992, and later on in the

 3     first grade of high school Branko asked me whether I could talk to my

 4     coach to take him on.  So in 1993 he started, but his handball career was

 5     short-lived because in 1996 he was injured in a game.  He had to undergo

 6     a surgical procedure, and that's when he stopped training.

 7        Q.   So he went back to training with you in 1995, right?

 8        A.   Yes.  We were still junior players at the time, and we were

 9     supposed to join the senior team, and that's why we had to work much

10     harder than anybody else, and we had to be there on Day 1 every season.

11        Q.   Okay.  And he recalls that, you having spoken to him about it,

12     right?

13        A.   About training?

14        Q.   Yeah, about when training started in 1995, in the summer of 1995.

15        A.   Oh, he know it.  Of course, he does.  That was the common

16     practice in the team.  Every year the championship ended in mid-June,

17     then there was a break, we had to come back in the beginning of August,

18     and then the season started.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much for that.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have no further questions at this time,

21     Mr. President.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  No re-examination, Mr. Ostojic?

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  No, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Questions?  Are you related to Zeljko Kerkez?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Doesn't ring a bell.  I'm often

Page 24958

 1     asked in Belgrade about some doctors who share my family name, and they

 2     ask me if I'm related to them, and my answer is always no.  I don't know

 3     these people, and I don't know the person that you asked me about.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  That brings an end to your testimony.

 5     You are free to go.  You will receive assistance from our staff.  On

 6     behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over,

 7     and I also wish you a safe journey back home.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we have a very brief housekeeping matter

12     that Mr. Thayer will address on scheduling?

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  We can do the documents next Monday.  That's

14     the photos -- there are the photos, and practically that's it.  You don't

15     have any other things apart from the photos, do you?

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  I do not, Mr. President.  2DIC 213 would be the

17     only document.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, exactly.  Those are going to be -- no

19     objection?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, there's no objection.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Yes, Mr. --

22                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  You have to be really quick because I'm advised we

24     can't stay a minute longer.

25             MR. THAYER:  I understand there's another matter following us,

Page 24959

 1     Mr. President.  We are in receipt of the witness schedule for next week.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Yes, I saw it.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Just given the -- some recent history, I just wanted

 4     to -- for everybody's sake to find out what the actual schedule is going

 5     to be.  We had Mr. Subotic on the schedule, and Wagenaar at one point was

 6     scheduled for prior to some of these other witnesses.  So I wanted to

 7     just find out if we can clarify if it's going to be Subotic --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  You can find out with Mr. Ostojic and then let us

 9     know, if Mr. Ostojic knows.  I suppose you do.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of

12                           September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.