Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24960

 1                           Monday, 1 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  If you could call

 6     the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Good morning, the rest of you.  All the

10     accused are here.  From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of

11     Mr. Josse and Mr. Haynes.  Prosecution, Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Thayer.  We

12     were informed that Mr. McCloskey won't be showing up today and tomorrow.

13     I also have been told there are some preliminaries, Madam Fauveau.

14             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor

15     disclosed last Friday a very large number of documents, a new series of

16     telephone intercepts about 10.000 pages all together and 120 audio

17     recordings, which amount to about 220 hours of recording.  The Prosecutor

18     obtained these documents last March, very exactly on March 13, 2008.  I'm

19     not -- I don't want to criticize or blame anyone for this late disclosure

20     because I assumed that before disclosing anything, the Prosecution wanted

21     to analyse these documents to see whether they were relevant to the case,

22     and obviously the Prosecution needed five months to do this analysis.  In

23     March, April and May we had no hearings, however.

24             Now Defence just got these documents and Defence has to analyse

25     these documents itself.  We analysed this last weekend, of course that

Page 24961

 1     was extremely brief and short, and this showed that we have documents

 2     from dating 1995, July 1995, notably documents dealing with Zepa.  Of

 3     course, I'm not saying all these documents relevant to the case but in

 4     order to find the right relevant document we will have to scrutinize

 5     10.000 pages and 120 hours of recording.  I guess that if these documents

 6     had not been relevant, the Prosecution would never have disclosed it, and

 7     they did disclose it last Friday afternoon.

 8             The one Defence team has already presented its case, another

 9     Defence team is almost done with presenting its own case, so all together

10     you could say that the Defence is in the midstream of presenting its

11     case, so I really don't know at this stage of the proceeding what we are

12     supposed to do.  We are presenting our own case and I don't know while --

13     how we can analyse this amount of document while presenting our cases and

14     while following the hearings.  It's not going to be possible.  We have no

15     time, we have no resources to do this.

16             I'm sure that no one in this courtroom needs to be reminded of

17     Rule 25 in the Statute, according to which each accused is entitled to

18     have enough time to prepare its own Defence.  But these rights should be

19     applied to the pretrial phase as well as to the trial phase --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  This is Article 21

21     of the Statute.

22             MADAM FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Even when you are in the middle

23     of the trial, I believe that enough time to analyse these documents

24     should be allocated to Defence.  In order to really put my points across

25     I would like to tell the Trial Chamber that last July 25th we also

Page 24962

 1     received more than 5.000 pages of documents, most of which are coming

 2     from the staff, documents bearing the signature of members of the staff.

 3     And we also had to analyse these 5.000 pages.

 4             I take this opportunity to tell you that the Defence of

 5     General Miletic was able to analyse these 5.000 pages during the summer

 6     recess but we were unable to do this because there was no hearing at the

 7     time.  We are also preparing a motion in order to amend our 65 ter

 8     exhibit list.  Let me reassure you there will won't be 5.000 pages, but

 9     there be quite a large amount of documents, however.

10             All I want the to say is that we managed to go through these

11     5.000 documents and suddenly we are flooded with 10.000 more and 220

12     hours of recording.  I must confess that I was quite reluctant to speak

13     with the Trial Chamber, and in our Defence team we thought about this

14     problem decided to address the Trial Chamber in order to protect the

15     interest of our client.  The General Miletic Defence team is absolutely

16     convinced that the only way to protect the interest of our client was to

17     address the Trial Chamber.  I do not want to waste your time, and I thank

18     you for your patience and for hearing me out.

19             I'll go to the point, straight to the point.  In order to analyse

20     these new series of documents which we received last Friday, we believe

21     that we need at least one month.  We need one month.  That would be a

22     reasonable time.  We are ready to make all efforts possible and try to

23     shorten this to three weeks.  But we believe that in order for at the

24     Defence of General Miletic to prepare itself for the case afterwards we

25     believe that once Nikolic's Defence team has presented its case and here

Page 24963

 1     we agree with Mr. Bourgon and Madam Nikolic but before our Defence team

 2     presents its case we believe there should be an adjournment for at least

 3     three weeks.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.  Thank you, Madam Fauveau.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours, I just like to join

 6     to the submission of Madam Fauveau.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.  We join

 9     also.  But I'd like to also make two additional points if we may.  One

10     related.  One not directly related.  I think that the late disclosure the

11     Prosecution would have stopped giving us documents at such a late stage

12     after the lessons we all should have learned in the Krstic case when

13     takes were disclosed at such a late stage in the proceedings and what the

14     Court said in that case.  What respect to what Madam Fauveau said I do

15     endorse that we get this time to review these documents.  It's impossible

16     for us to do that while being at trial and preparing our various Defence

17     cases.  Even when we are not doing the Defence cases, we are reading

18     other accused witnesses so we can be prepared in order to cross-examine

19     them.  The second topic that is not directly related involves Witness

20     2DW-83.  He is a DutchBat witness.  I today received additional proofing

21     or statements that that witness purportedly made to both the Royal

22     Netherlands Army as well as to the ICTY.  I just don't know why we didn't

23     get that during the regular disclosure of DutchBat personnel and why we

24     didn't get it when Mr. Egbers testified here many, many months ago.  His

25     name on the proofing by the investigator is attached.  And although I did

Page 24964

 1     have a brief discussion with my learned friend I'd like to have him put

 2     on the record as to why his own investigator's information report which

 3     mentioned Egbers and this gentleman 2DW-83 was not provided to us other

 4     than this morning.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Any further preliminaries?  None, yes

 6     Mr. Lazarevic.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Good morning, Let me just state Mr. Borovcanin's

 8     Defence position regarding this issue.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Which issue?

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  The issue that Madam Fauveau raised.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

12             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, we basically support Madam Fauveau's

13     request, and we understand that this amount of disclosure which has like

14     220 hours, it's time consuming job to digest all this and in this sense

15     we do support Madam Fauveau's request.  However we would prefer if the

16     Trial Chamber decides to grant Madam Fauveau's request that the recess

17     takes place after Mr. Borovcanin Defence presents its case.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Bourgon.

19             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Judges.

20     Just to keep the Trial Chamber informed, first of all, that we support

21     Madam Fauveau's request for a break in the proceedings in order to review

22     this material.  However, as she did mention, the team of Drago Nikolic is

23     ready to proceed with the Defence of our client.  On Friday we disclosed

24     a list of our witnesses that we have for September, and we are ready to

25     proceed and at this stage we are proceeding on the assumption that we

Page 24965

 1     will begin as of 15 September and we could be ready to begin as early as

 2     12 September depending of course when my colleague ends his case.  That

 3     being said it is important for us to have a starting date because we are

 4     in contact with the victims and the witnesses section and it's a matter

 5     of planning as to when we will begin.  All this taking into account, we

 6     still need although to review the material that was disclosed to us,

 7     that's why we support Madam Fauveau's request.  At first glance it

 8     appears Drago Nikolic is not target by this new material, but we still

 9     have to review it; and it is important that we do have some kind of a

10     recess so that we are able to review all of the new material disclosed to

11     us.  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Morning, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sorry, sorry wait one moment.  Mr. Sarapa.

15             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] We support Mrs. Fauveau's motion and

16     we join in that motion.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:  Morning, Mr. President.  Good morning everyone.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Morning.

20             MR. THAYER:  I'll have to consult with Mr. McCloskey.  I presume

21     his absence is a pure coincidence this morning.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  It has got nothing to do with Labour Day.

23             MR. THAYER:  Right.  I can tell the Court what I know about these

24     new intercepts which we were disclosed recently.  My understanding is

25     that these intercepts involve an entirely new site or sites of which we

Page 24966

 1     were not aware, did not have this material for.  I don't know the ins and

 2     outs of how we actually acquired it, but my understanding is we have not

 3     even begun to analyse these intercepts ourselves.  What has taken so long

 4     between the time we obtained them and the time we disclosed them is the

 5     mechanical process of miffing them and getting them into a searchable

 6     format that is intelligible to our friends; that is literally taken these

 7     several months to do.  As far as I understand it, we are on an equal

 8     playing field with respect to these intercepts in terms of knowing what

 9     is in them.  Our thought was just to disclose the whole lot get them to

10     our friends as soon as we could without further delaying getting them out

11     without going through each and every one.  They are voluminous from my

12     understanding.  With respect to our friend's request, I understand that

13     Madam Fauveau had some discussions with Mr. McCloskey, I think our

14     position is we are not going to oppose the request outright.  It may be

15     reasonable to have to take some weeks to review these materials.  As I

16     said, we need to review them as well.  They have just gotten into the

17     system.  So it will take some time.

18             With respect to my friend's statement about the DutchBat

19     information, Mr. Lutke was not on our initial witness list.  When we run

20     searches our all systems database searches on our witnesses before we

21     call them we typically get binders and binders which we review when

22     there's Rule 68 we disclose.  That a wasn't done with respect to this

23     person because he wasn't our witness.  When he was placed on the Defence

24     fence witness list that was done.  Over the weekend I began reviewing the

25     materials, I found three documents which had not been disclosed

Page 24967

 1     previously, I think because we probably didn't know about them when we

 2     made our initial disclosure in the course of our normal disclosure

 3     process for this witness.  Again he wasn't on our witness list.  With

 4     respect to why this one particular document was not disclosed in

 5     connection with Lieutenant Egbers, I don't have an answer to that.  It

 6     may have not been in the binders it may have not been picked up in our

 7     prior all systems search.  All I can say is that when I came across it

 8     this weekend, I immediately made hard copies of all the materials and

 9     distributed them to my friends, hopefully in time for them to be able to

10     use them if they see fit.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  So two things we will await further information

12     from Mr. McCloskey to start with.  Secondly, we'll back to you on

13     Madam Fauveau's issue, matter.  All right.

14             Who is the next witness because we are were told this morning

15     that there was some kind of decision as to whether it will be one or the

16     other.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  Bojan Subotic, Your Honour.  The changes we've made

18     this week to some of the witnesses we provided the staff with that is a

19     result of a number of things which we are trying to accommodate everyone.

20     The witness's schedules prior to the break had to be transferred over

21     here, we had one who his health recently is poor.  The Court was kind

22     enough to grant the videolink we had to move him from this week the other

23     witness for late this week at the request I think of the former accused

24     counsel, we had to move him to next week, and it looks like we may have

25     to move him even to the week of the 15th if I'm not mistaken.

Page 24968

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  When do you reckon you will finish with your case.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  I thought we'd finish no later than 12th of

 3     September, Mr. President, of September, of course.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are move someone already to the 15th.

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm not, that's the points I wanted him this Friday

 6     because it fits better with what I thought was an orderly plan.  Then it

 7     was requested that he move to the 8th of September and we accommodated

 8     that request because of the lawyer from America and then just this

 9     weekends we heard they can't do it the 8th but would prefer to do it the

10     15th.  I leave it in your hands and the Prosecution, I don't know how to

11     schedule it.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  I can speak very briefly to that point.  The

14     request, I'm in discussions with registry to see if this is possible, the

15     reason we are looking at the week of the 15th instead of the week of the

16     8th has to do with the time difference because there is a significant

17     time difference.  When we are in morning court it's impossible to set up

18     the videolink with that particular location.  So we were hoping that we

19     would be able to schedule it for the following week when we are in

20     afternoons.  Either Monday the 15th, I understand we are in mornings

21     typically on Mondays or Tuesday the 16th.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  We could also as Judge Kwon is suggesting to us get

23     the registrar to change the sitting of the 8th from the morning to the

24     afternoon.

25             MR. THAYER:  If we can flip with Gotovina that will be great.

Page 24969

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think Gotovina will only be pleased to do that.

 2             MR. THAYER:  If that can be arranged, I think --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  8 is Monday?  No, isn't it.  8 is Monday.  Correct?

 4             MR. THAYER:  That's correct, Mr. President.  Okay.  We'll let's

 5     leave it until after the first break and we'll tell you what our

 6     preference is and also you make your own calculations, Mr. Ostojic.

 7             All right.  Mr. Subotic, please.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, to you, Mr. Subotic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Morning.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome to this Tribunal.  You are going to give

12     evidence you have been summoned by the Beara Defence team, before you

13     start you are required by our rules to make a solemn declaration that in

14     the course of your testimony will be speaking the truth, the whole truth

15     and nothing but the truth.  Text is right in front of you, please read it

16     out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Please make yourself

20     comfortable.

21                           WITNESS:  BOJAN SUBOTIC

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                      JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic from the Beara Defence team

24     will go first then will be followed by others on cross-examination.

25                           Examination by Mr. Nikolic:  [Interpretation]

Page 24970

 1        Q.   Thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

 2     morning to everybody in the courtroom.  Good morning, Mr. Subotic.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   As you know, I'm Predrag Nikolic, I represent Mr. Ljubisa Beara,

 5     and I'll be leading you on behalf of this team.

 6             Could you please first of all introduce yourself for the record.

 7        A.   Bojan Subotic.

 8        Q.   Your father's name, the year of birth and where you were born,

 9     please?

10        A.   My father's name is Janko.  12 of December 1972 in Visoko.

11        Q.   Mr. Subotic, what about your educational background?

12        A.   I'm a welder, I completed a secondary school.

13        Q.   When did you complete secondary education?

14        A.   In 1990.

15        Q.   And when you graduated did you work, and where you were at the

16     time?

17        A.   I did not work.  Six months after I completed by secondary

18     education I joined the JNA to do my regularly military service.

19        Q.   How long did you spend serving as a conscript in the JNA?

20        A.   14 and a half months.

21        Q.   Until what time, when were you discharged from the JNA?

22        A.   From 15 March 1991, to 28 or 29 May 1992.

23        Q.   After your compulsory military service where did you go?

24        A.   I returned home and I joined the Republika Srpska army because

25     the war in Bosnia had already started.

Page 24971

 1        Q.   What unit were you a member of in the VRS?

 2        A.   I was in the Iljas Brigade for five or six months and then in

 3     December, I joined the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment.

 4        Q.   How long did you stay in the 65th Motorised Regiment, or rather

 5     from when to when?

 6        A.   From December 1992 to February 1997.

 7        Q.   What duties did you perform in that unit?

 8        A.   I had several duties starting with the commander of the

 9     anti-terrorist company to the military police service.

10        Q.   Where were you, Mr. Subotic, in June and July 1995?

11        A.   I was in the battalion of the military police of the 65th

12     Motorised Regiment in Nova Kasaba.

13        Q.   What duties did you perform there during that period of time?

14        A.   I was the commander of the military police platoon, and I was the

15     commander of the security of the battalion command.

16        Q.   Could you please explain, you've just told us you were also in

17     the patrol service, what is patrol service?

18        A.   The patrol service is -- encompasses different services that form

19     the battalion of the military police that had just been established in

20     our unit.  As the word has it, this service is for patrolling and

21     providing security for facilities, materiel, equipment, access and guards

22     posts.

23        Q.   At the time in Nova Kasaba, was it only a part of the unit that

24     was billeted there or was there only the command of the battalion that

25     was billeted there?

Page 24972

 1        A.   The command of the military police battalion was there, but at

 2     the time there was just the command and myself providing security for the

 3     command.

 4        Q.   Can you please remember how many troops and officers of your unit

 5     were there in Nova Kasaba at the time?

 6        A.   What period are you referring it?

 7        Q.   June and July 1995, this is the period I'm referring to.

 8        A.   There were some dozen of us, ten or so.

 9        Q.   Do you remember an event that happened in July 1995 that to your

10     mind was significant?

11        A.   I remember in the first half of the month of July we were

12     performing our regular security tasks, I was a member of the patrol

13     together with five soldiers.  When around 8 o'clock one morning a woman

14     came that I knew by sight.  She resided very close to the facilities

15     where we were billeted; she ran up to us bare foot and she told us that

16     her house was full of Muslims, and Muslims soldiers and that meadows and

17     forest around her house were also full of them.

18        Q.   When that woman came up to you, what time of day was it?

19        A.   It was early in the morning, immediately after breakfast, around

20     8 o'clock in the morning.  Half past 7 or 8, or thereabouts.

21        Q.   And when she approached you and told you what she had seen, did

22     you do something about that?

23        A.   I ordered the patrol that I commanded to be in full combat

24     readiness.  I took two soldiers with me and I also had a BOV 7 as part of

25     my patrol detail; this is a combat vehicle of the military police.  I

Page 24973

 1     took two soldiers to reconnoiter in the direction of the house that the

 2     woman had mentioned to me.

 3        Q.   Did you get there, to the house?

 4        A.   I did not manage to get there because the Zeleni Jadar river

 5     flows in front of her house, and I was ambushed.  There was some Muslim

 6     soldiers with machine gun they were shooting at me from the side of her

 7     house.  They opened machine gun and mortar fire in our direction.

 8        Q.   What happened next?

 9        A.   I and my two soldiers returned fire, and in that situation I

10     summoned the combat vehicle to give me machine gun support while we were

11     pulling out of that position.

12        Q.   Did you try to establish where the enemy fire was coming from,

13     and if you did, what did you find out?

14        A.   The fire came from the direction of the forest looking from the

15     house that the woman had pointed to us, and it also came from the curve

16     of the river, from the place where the river meanders in that area.

17        Q.   What prompted your decision to call for help?  Why did you ask

18     the patrol with the combat vehicle to come to your assistance?

19        A.   Well, there were a lot of enemy troops there.  I had my

20     binoculars and during the 20 or 30-second break in the fire, I could see

21     that there were up to 1.000 soldiers.  There were some 50 to 70 machine

22     guns, and we only had one round each in the rifles that we had taken with

23     us.  We only had 30 bullets and nothing else.

24        Q.   Did you manage to withdraw in the direction of your command?

25        A.   Yes, the BOV arrived and we withdrew.  I was the last to get on

Page 24974

 1     the combat vehicle.  We were under fierce fire and while we were

 2     withdrawing towards the command, I wanted to take the soldier who

 3     remained at the centre post and proceed towards military, because I

 4     realized that we could not defend the command from such a fierce attack.

 5     There was no way for us to put up resistance against such a fierce

 6     attack.

 7        Q.   Did you receive assistance from anybody?  Did you even try to get

 8     assistance?

 9        A.   I did try to call the command in Crna Rijeka where the 65th

10     Regiment was.  I wanted to hear their instructions.  I did it over the

11     radio, that was in the combat vehicle.  However, I did not manage to get

12     through to them.

13        Q.   How long was the conflict, i.e., how long did the exchange of

14     fire go on for?

15        A.   From our arrival and when the fire was opened until the moment we

16     withdraw it took some 25 minutes to half an hour.  So the whole situation

17     lasted for up to half an hour.

18        Q.   When you returned in the barracks, what did you do?

19        A.   I refilled my clip.  I took the two combat sets that we were

20     entitled to for securing the facility.  However, at the moment when we

21     were refilling our ammunition we could hear strong mortar and machine

22     gunfire coming from the direction of the bridge, from Koljevic Polje.

23     Being aware of the fact that there was civilian population down there, I

24     went there.

25        Q.   Mr. Subotic, at the moment were there any other officers in the

Page 24975

 1     barracks but you?

 2        A.   Yes, there was a Sergeant First Class Petrovic.

 3        Q.   And the battalion commander, who was it, and was he there at the

 4     command at the moment?

 5        A.   The battalion commander was Major Zoran Malinic.  He was there

 6     all the time, however; at the moment when this woman arrived and when we

 7     suffered that attack, at that particular moment, he was not there.

 8        Q.   Did you brief your commander of the situation as it was evolving

 9     around the command at that moment?

10        A.   I didn't, I couldn't.  I could not get through to him at that

11     very moment.

12        Q.   Did you meet with him at that moment?

13        A.   No, not at that moment, but a little later.

14        Q.   After how long from your return to the barracks?

15        A.   Approximately two hours later.

16        Q.   Can you share with us the contents of your conversation?  Did you

17     brief him about the situation when you first saw him?

18        A.   Yes, I briefed him, and I also told him that I had one wounded

19     soldier.

20        Q.   What did the commander tell you?  Did he provide you with any

21     orders or instructions?

22        A.   After I briefed him, I suggested that we pull out from there.

23     However, he said we couldn't and that I should go on with patrolling and

24     to replenish with ammunition since there were many civilians, women and

25     children, in Kasaba; and we could not leave them behind.

Page 24976

 1        Q.   Did you begin patrolling again, and where?

 2        A.   Yes.  We continued patrolling along the axis the command, then a

 3     bend on the road called "crna tacka," the black spot next to the football

 4     pitch towards Zvornik, and towards Milici, some 3 to 400 metres from our

 5     command.

 6        Q.   In order to clarify something, when you say "crna tacka," black

 7     spot, what do you mean?

 8        A.   It's a traffic sign.  It means it's a dangerous bend in the road.

 9        Q.   As you continued patrolling, did anything happen then?

10        A.   Yes.  Throughout the time while we were patrolling, we sustained

11     heavy enemy fire, but some enemy soldiers began turning themselves in.

12        Q.   Can you explain to me how come such a situation arose that the

13     enemy soldiers began surrendering?

14        A.   While we were patrolling and returning fire, it was a combat from

15     the armoured vehicle, I fired six rounds of tear gas towards the woods.

16        Q.   Did the enemy soldiers begin emerging from that direction, from

17     that piece of the woods?

18        A.   Yes.  Three or four minutes later, after the tear gas began

19     taking effect, a group of 10 to 15 Muslim soldiers surrendered.

20        Q.   What did you do with the group of soldiers?

21        A.   We disarmed them.  Staff Sergeant Petrovic left with them to the

22     battalion command.

23        Q.   Where were you at the time?  Did you remain in the same place or

24     did you continue patrolling?

25        A.   I stayed there for awhile.  There was still combat, and we were

Page 24977

 1     under sniper attacks and we tried to continue with our patrol.

 2        Q.   Mr. Subotic, when the first group of enemy soldiers surrendered,

 3     did you interview them?  Did you question them, interrogate, did you try

 4     to learn something more about the group?

 5        A.   Yes.  I asked them what unit they were from, they said -- well,

 6     basically they told me that we were attacked by an entire establishment

 7     unit.  I don't know where whether it is the Srebrenica brigade or

 8     regiment or something of sorts.  They also said that there were many

 9     other people in the woods wanting to surrender and that there was a

10     conflict within the group itself; some people wanted to surrender whilst

11     others did not.  Apparently there were more of those that wanted to

12     themselves in.

13        Q.   Did that information assist you in undertaking any further steps?

14        A.   Yes, it did.  After I assessed the situation, I turned on the

15     loud speaker that we had on the armoured vehicle and began asking those

16     enemy soldiers to surrender.

17        Q.   Did that result in any new people surrendering?

18        A.   Yes, some quarter of an hour later, a group of some 300 people

19     surrender, around 300.

20        Q.   Mr. Subotic, in your assessment, it was a large group of about

21     300 people.  How many of you were there in the patrol?

22        A.   I was there together with four soldiers, four recruit military

23     policemen.

24        Q.   Can you explain to me a bit more in detail how the surrendering

25     took place of that group of soldiers?

Page 24978

 1        A.   I was at the bridge when the first group surrendered, that's when

 2     I learned that there were more people looking to surrender.  And then we

 3     went further down towards the football pitch.  That group surrendered

 4     vis-a-vis the pitch.  There is a path there, we saw them with their arms

 5     lifted and they said, and we could clearly understand them since we speak

 6     the same language, that we shouldn't shoot them and that they were

 7     looking to surrender.

 8        Q.   Given the size of the group that was surrendering and that there

 9     were very few of you, how did you organise that further, and where did

10     you send the prisoners?

11        A.   Via the loudspeaker, I told them to throw their weapons down and

12     that they should cross the road and move closer to the pitch.

13        Q.   Were there any people among them who were injured?

14        A.   Yes, there were two seriously wounded soldiers and one that was

15     lightly wounded.  I took care of the first two.  I applied some bandages,

16     and a soldier of mine took care of the third one that was lightly

17     wounded.  I used radio communication, I contacted Petrovic to send an

18     ambulance because there were wounded enemy soldiers.  And I also expected

19     that some combat might ensue at a later point, and I asked for

20     reinforcements as well.

21        Q.   Were those enemy soldiers doing it voluntarily, surrendering

22     their weapons and what was their condition?  Did they look tired,

23     exhausted, or fit?

24        A.   The enemy soldiers cooperated.  They listened to what I was

25     telling them, they discarded their weapons, they moved over to the pitch

Page 24979

 1     and they even asked me to go up to the woods with them because there were

 2     murders taking place.  They said that their commanders were killing those

 3     who wanted to surrender.  In any case, they begged that I should go with

 4     them up there to resolve the situation if I could.  They were physically

 5     exhausted and very thirsty.  Thirsty for the most part.

 6        Q.   You said you told them to go to the stadium, to the pitch; did

 7     they go there by themselves or did you provide some sort of an escort?

 8        A.   They went there by themselves.  We were just across the road from

 9     the stadium.  I was on the armoured vehicle with the soldiers, and I was

10     the only one who left the vehicle while my soldiers remained inside.

11        Q.   Did you give them water since you say they were thirsty and that

12     that was their primary need at that point in time?

13        A.   Concerning the two I talked to, I gave them water while I sent

14     the others down to the Zeleni Jadar river because we didn't have enough

15     water for all of them, I told them to go back to the stadium after having

16     had some water.

17        Q.   What is the distance between the river and the stadium?

18        A.   50 to 70 metres.

19        Q.   What did you do with the weapons they had discarded?

20        A.   We didn't touch it.  It remained where they had left it.  I did

21     not have enough people to disarm all of them in a proper way to search

22     them for any hand grenades or anything.  The weapons simply remained

23     where they were.

24        Q.   You said that you had another interview with a group of soldiers

25     and that they told you that in the woods there were more people.  What

Page 24980

 1     did you do after that?

 2        A.   I took the two I had talked to and I asked them whether they

 3     wanted to accompany me.  They said they would.  I took two of my soldiers

 4     while I left the other two on the road, and we went up to the woods to

 5     where they were taking me.

 6        Q.   When you arrived at the place they wanted you to go to, what did

 7     you find there?

 8        A.   A horrific sight.  There were over 500 dead bodies.  I realized

 9     that some of them had killed themselves.  Some people hanged themselves,

10     many of them were wounded.  And I realized that most of those wounds were

11     caused by explosives by hand grenades because they were irregular in

12     shape, I realized that it must have been done by their commanders, they

13     truly wanted to surrender themselves, and it was a really horrific sight.

14        Q.   Did you find any people that were still alive and did you take

15     them prisoners?

16        A.   There was no taking any prisoners.  We found five or six

17     survivors.  We aided them, we used some bandages to the extent we had

18     any, and we took them down to the stadium.

19        Q.   And at the stadium, the first group of prisoners was already

20     there.  By that point in time, in your view, how many prisoners were

21     there in total?

22        A.   When I returned with the wounded, the two soldiers that remained

23     with the armour vehicle told me that another 200 had surrendered from the

24     other side.  They came down from the other side of the forest to the part

25     where I was.  I'd say between 4 and 500 people.

Page 24981

 1        Q.   When you came back from the forest, did you check whether the

 2     ambulance team had arrived since you had called for help, and what was

 3     the treatment of the prisoners that were in the stadium?

 4        A.   Once I came back with the wounded some 10 minutes later, an

 5     ambulance team arrived, I think from the Milici hospital.  They

 6     approached the prisoners and provided medical assistance, and I think two

 7     of those soldiers who had been seriously wounded were taken to the

 8     military hospital.

 9        Q.   What about food, did you provide any food?

10        A.   We gave them some food that we had on us, and in the barracks.

11     It wasn't much though.  At a certain point my commander appeared.  Before

12     that when I asked for an ambulance, I had told them that they should give

13     some food as well.  He then told me I should go to Milici to the bakery

14     and shop there and take some food under the authority of the military

15     police to take it to the prisoners.

16        Q.   Did you manage to secure at least decent qualities of food given

17     the number of prisoners?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Quantities of food.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I can't remember exactly, but I

20     think we managed to gather 100 or 150 loaves of bread from the three or

21     four shops we gave them that and they divided it among themselves.  We

22     also had some food that had been provided for the command and the

23     security for that day.  We gave them that as well.

24             MR. NIKOLIC:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Subotic, concerning the initial information

Page 24982

 1     that you had received from that lady in the morning.  Well, by this point

 2     in time what time of day is it?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please switch on the microphone

 4     to his right.  Thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Around 11 or 12 o'clock.

 6             MR. NIKOLIC:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Were there any problems with the prisoners?  Was

 8     there any need to introduce order?

 9        A.   We had no problems with them.  They cooperated fully when I sent

10     them down to the river to drink, they went there by themselves without

11     any escort, and the same number would come back.  They received the

12     bread.  I only had some problems with our civilians who came there.

13     There were no beatings, I wouldn't have that, but there were some

14     insults, but that was something we could not prevent from happening.

15        Q.   Did you stay at the stadium throughout the time next to the

16     prisoners, or did you go on with your patrolling pursuant to your

17     commander's orders?

18        A.   I was there only when I brought the people in, those who had

19     surrendered.  I was patrolling all the time.  I was along the river, in

20     the forest, my radius of movement was about 500 to 600 metres.

21        Q.   What happened next, did you undertake any measures vis-a-vis the

22     prisoners?

23        A.   We didn't do anything concrete.  We just disarmed them when they

24     surrendered and we brought them to the stadium.  There were even groups

25     who went to the stadium on their own.  I did not have either the manpower

Page 24983

 1     or the weapons to escort them at one point, I don't know how late it was,

 2     it was maybe was about 1 or half past 1 that I brought a group of

 3     prisoners who had surrendered, and I saw that there was our commander

 4     there and another member of the unit, Staff Sergeant Janusevic.

 5             And the two of them were interviewing the prisoners and taking

 6     their details.

 7        Q.   When you say they were taking details, who were they taking

 8     details from, and what do you mean by "details"?

 9        A.   This is in keeping with the rules of the military police service.

10     They took details from the prisoners, the name, the name of the unit, the

11     ID number, where they were born.  Personal details.

12        Q.   Mr. Subotic, during that period, and I'm referring to June and

13     July, did you encounter representatives of the United Nations in your

14     area of patrol?

15        A.   I did.  There were United Nations troops there.  They came to our

16     battalion command to speak to my commander on several occasions.  On that

17     same day, and I forgot to mention that, when I had that attack, there

18     were two members of the United Nations in a vehicle which was either a

19     PUH or something in our command.  One of them during the attack on the

20     barracks during fierce machine gunfire asked for weapons.  I gave him my

21     own rifle with three or four clip and remained with our soldier at the

22     gate and he returned fire from my rifle in the direction of the forest.

23        Q.   When the attack was over, a new group of prisoners surrendered,

24     were the two UN soldiers still there?

25        A.   They remained in the command, in the building of the battalion

Page 24984

 1     command.  They never came down to the stadium.

 2        Q.   When we are talking about the stadium where the prisoners were

 3     accommodated, where was it?  Could you please specify the location of the

 4     stadium with regard to the command, with regard to the road?

 5        A.   The stadium was on the road from military to Zvornik or to be

 6     more precise, from our command towards Zvornik on the left-hand side of

 7     the road some 800 metres from the command.  Maybe 800 to 900 metres.

 8        Q.   During the attacks, the first one that came from the forest and

 9     the second one from the settlement, was the fire also opened on the road?

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please speak into the microphone

11     or switch off his microphone to his right.  The interpreters are having

12     problems hearing him.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.  This road was constantly

14     under fierce fire but not of the same intensity of the fire I was subject

15     to in the morning.  Still, there was mortar fire and there was also the

16     rifle grenades being fired on the road.

17             MR. NIKOLIC:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] At that moment, and we are talking about

19     sometime after noon, were there any other events, did any other officers

20     from your command come?  And if they did, who were they?

21        A.   There were our officers there, Commander Malinic, Petrovic,

22     Janusevic and some other of our officers arrived later on, maybe two or

23     three of them who resided close by.  I suppose that commander Malinic had

24     contacted them by telephone or otherwise, and there were also some other

25     officer they had rang, they were recording stuff and they were carrying

Page 24985

 1     cameras and recorded stuff.  I didn't know who they were.

 2        Q.   What camera crews were those and when did they turn up, do you

 3     know?

 4        A.   I know that one was Srna, a Srna crew.  Srna standing for the

 5     Serbian radio television and the others wore uniforms, and I really don't

 6     know whether they were from a unit or who they were.  I wouldn't be able

 7     to tell you, I really don't know.

 8        Q.   Did somebody interfered with their work or were they free to

 9     record whatever they wanted to record, and what did they actually record?

10     What did they shoot?

11        A.   Nobody interfered with their work.  I even received an order from

12     Commander Malinic telling me that a team would arrive and that they

13     shouldn't be disturbed in their work.  They recorded everything.  They

14     recorded prisoners, they recorded us, and the hills from which fire was

15     being opened.

16        Q.   How long did the film crews stay in that place?

17        A.   Until maybe 4 or 5 o'clock in the afternoon.  Until

18     General Mladic's arrival.

19        Q.   When did General Mladic appear?  Did you see him?

20        A.   He appeared sometime in the afternoon, around 4 or half past 4 or

21     thereabouts.  I was at the stadium next to the prisoners.  I happened to

22     be there and when I turned around, I saw a PUH arriving from somewhere,

23     and there was General Mladic with his personal security.

24        Q.   What did General Mladic say to you or whoever was there among the

25     officers from your unit?

Page 24986

 1        A.   I was the first one to see General Mladic when I turned around.

 2     He got out of the car and asked me something to the effect of, Kid, are

 3     you alive?  Where is your commander?

 4        Q.   And you answered?

 5        A.   I saluted to the general.  I said I'm alive and well, and I

 6     pointed him to the commander.  Actually, I went looking for the commander

 7     with the general in tow.

 8        Q.   Where did all this happen?  Where did you encounter

 9     General Mladic and where did you take him to see your commander?

10        A.   In the football stadium among the prisoners who were there.

11        Q.   Did General Mladic address the prisoners and what did he tell

12     them on that occasion, if you can remember?

13        A.   Well, he greeted them and he said, People, good afternoon, how

14     are you.  He introduced himself to them, he said I'm General Mladic, and

15     I remember that the prisoners applauded him quite vehemently when he

16     introduced himself.  He said they shouldn't be worried it was a good

17     thing that they surrendered he wanted to avoid any bloodshed and that

18     they would be accommodated, fed and that they would be exchanged for some

19     of our prisoners; but I don't remember where these prisoners were from.

20     I don't know whether he mentioned Mount Majevica or something else.  I

21     can't remember as I sit here today.

22        Q.   Just a tiny correction for the transcript.  I apologise it has

23     already been corrected in the transcript.

24             What happened next, Mr. Subotic?

25        A.   The general remained there maybe 15 or 20 minutes talking to the

Page 24987

 1     prisoners and he told them that transportation would be provided for them

 2     to go to Bratunac because in Bratunac he would hand them over to the

 3     civilian authorities who would take their names and exchange them

 4     eventually.  And then he turned to me and the commander, but I am not

 5     sure to which one of us he said, I suppose it was him, he ordered us to

 6     secure the taking of the prisoners to Bratunac and that lorries and buses

 7     would be arriving in about an hour, hour and a half and he would be the

 8     one to provide their transportation for the prisoners from Bratunac.

 9        Q.   Did he execute his order, and how did you do that?

10        A.   Yes, maybe an hour or hour 10 minutes later, the buses indeed

11     started arriving from the direction of Zvornik and Milici and also some

12     lorries arrived.  I'd greed with the commander who had told me, Kid, I

13     heard the general we have to do this, and I said no problem, commander.

14     I climbed the combat vehicle and I shouted at the people that they should

15     take a drink of water, wait for the buses and the lorries and when the

16     vehicles arrived they should get on them.

17        Q.   And before that what happened to the sick and wounded, were they

18     taken care of?

19        A.   All the wounded who were there were taken care of by the medical

20     team from Milici.  Another team arrived later and all the wounds were

21     addressed and the seriously wounded were taken to the hospital in Milici.

22     I forgot to say that before that there had been buses transporting

23     civilians, people recognised each other, and I even allowed some of the

24     prisoners who were recognised by their female folks to get on those buses

25     and lorries to avoid the stadium being unnecessarily crowding up.

Page 24988

 1        Q.   Who was on the buses?  What kind of buses were those that were

 2     passing by the stadium according to you?  The buses stopped, who was on

 3     those buses?

 4        A.   Those were civilian buses from the direction of Konjevic Polje

 5     going in the direction of Milici.  They followed the civilian Muslim

 6     population, they would stop there and people on the bus us would

 7     recognise people in the stadium as their brothers, husbands and so on and

 8     so forth, and they would not proceed without them; so I was forced to

 9     allow these recognised people to get on the buses so as to enable the

10     buses to move on.  I did not want the place to become overcrowded with

11     all these vehicles.

12        Q.   Did this happen before General Mladic's arrival or after his

13     arrival?

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If I can intervene a minute,

16     Mr. Nikolic.  Mr. Subotic, you said that General Mladic turned to you and

17     ordered the prisoner to be transferred to Bratunac.  Where in Bratunac?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  To the elementary school there.  I

19     believe that the name of the school was Vuk Karadzic, but I'm not sure.

20     The elementary school.  And perhaps the name is Vuk Karadzic.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And General Mladic also said to you that buses would

22     be arriving in at least half an hour, and indeed the buses arrived in 10

23     minutes.  Can I take it from your comments that it was General Mladic who

24     arranged those buses and transportation, nobody else?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  General Mladic did not mention

Page 24989

 1     half an hour or ten minutes.  He said an hour and ten minutes later the

 2     buses would arrive, and yes, he was the one who ordered us to take the

 3     prisoners to the elementary school; and he did say that he would be the

 4     one who organise the arrival of those buses.  And indeed, true to his

 5     words, an hour and ten minutes later, the buses began arriving there.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  However, is it not somewhat unusual for the

 7     superintendent commander to organise such a transportation?  My question

 8     is, who actually organised those transportation, if you know?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  As far as I know, as far as I

10     could hear from General Mladic is what I shared with you.  I don't know

11     any of the rest.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             MR. NIKOLIC:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Subotic, how many buses were there, as well

15     as trucks, who arrived to transport the soldiers, the prisoners?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Which arrived, interpreter's correction.

17             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation]  There were some six or seven

18     buses and the same number of trucks.  There was a column of about 15

19     vehicles in total.

20             MR. NIKOLIC:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you explain the trucks and buses and their

22     size?  Were these standard buses and trucks or bigger ones?

23        A.   The buses were standard in size to transport passengers, they had

24     some 50 seats, I believe.  There were also some large trucks.

25        Q.   Were these civilian, or military vehicles, or both?

Page 24990

 1        A.   These buses and trucks were civilian.  They came without any

 2     escorts, only the drivers operated them and they had civilian

 3     registration plates.  There was no military personnel on board.

 4        Q.   You were there and you were assigned to organise the boarding of

 5     the buses and trucks and the transport of the prisoners; is that correct?

 6        A.   As for the transport itself, it was the drivers who were

 7     responsible for that.  I was only there to organise the boarding and to

 8     see the column off to the school in Bratunac.  We were there supposed to

 9     hand them over to the civilian police, to the police station there.  This

10     was particularly stressed by General Mladic when he issued that order to

11     my commander at the stadium.

12        Q.   What did you do in particular to get the transport going?

13        A.   At the head of the column I placed the armoured vehicle with

14     three soldiers.  I was there with them.  And at the rear as additional

15     security, a Praga was placed.  We organised the boarding of the people on

16     to the buses and trucks and the column set off around 7 p.m.

17             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may ask for a

18     break at this point and then resume afterwards.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  You certainly may.  25 minutes, thank you.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

23             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

24        Q.   Mr. Subotic, before continuing, I'd like to go back to some of

25     your previous answers to clarify a thing or two.  Tell me this, please,

Page 24991

 1     how much time in total did General Mladic spend with you and your

 2     commander in front of the prisoners?

 3        A.   Around an hour or so.  I can't tell you precisely.  Around one

 4     hour, maybe three-quarters of an hour or full hour.  Around that time.

 5        Q.   How much time did elapse between his departure and the arrival of

 6     the initial buses?

 7        A.   The same, about an hour, an hour and ten minutes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Let us move on now.

 9             You received an order and began forming the column of vehicles.

10     Can you explain to us how you went about it.

11        A.   At the head of the column, I placed the armoured vehicle next to

12     the dangerous bend in the road I mentioned before.  There were three

13     soldiers and the armoured vehicle was followed by the buses and vehicles.

14     At the rear there was a Praga with a three-strong crew.

15        Q.   How many of you military policemen and soldiers escorted the

16     convoy?

17        A.   Eight.  The armoured vehicle crew and the Praga crew, four each:

18     Myself and three soldiers in the armoured vehicle, and the three soldiers

19     in the Praga with their commander.

20        Q.   In your view, was that sufficient to provide security for the

21     convoy?

22        A.   Definitely not, but we did not have any more personnel to do it

23     properly.

24        Q.   When did you set off towards Bratunac, if you cannot tell us the

25     exact hour, perhaps you can estimate?

Page 24992

 1        A.   It was around 7, 7.30.  I can't tell you any more precisely than

 2     that.  Around that time.

 3        Q.   What is the distance from the place from which you started to

 4     Bratunac in kilometres?

 5        A.   I think some 30 to 35 kilometres.

 6        Q.   When did you arrive in Bratunac?

 7        A.   We arrived two hours later.

 8        Q.   Given the number of kilometres, did that strike you as a rather

 9     long time, and if so, why did it take you so long?

10        A.   Yes.  In normal conditions, it would take 15 to 20 minutes, but

11     we were in a convoy and from the rear, from the Praga, they kept telling

12     me that the people were demolishing the buses, breaking through windows,

13     falling out because they were thirsty; and every now and then I would

14     stop the convoy when I see a creek or some sort of water nearby so that

15     people could wash themselves and drink.  We stopped frequently.

16        Q.   While you were stopping on the way, were there any incidents

17     caused by the prisoners?

18        A.   Incidents as such there were none, but people were breaking --

19     smashing windows on the buses because it was so hot.  They couldn't no

20     longer stand it inside.  They were thirsty and exhausted.  We were

21     stopping along the way so that they could drink some water and feel a bit

22     better.

23        Q.   When you arrived in Bratunac, who did you hand the prisoners over

24     to, and where?

25        A.   I handed them over to the members of the station of the interior

Page 24993

 1     in Bratunac, the civilian police.  They awaited us at the entrance of the

 2     school.  There was an incident there.  There was a policeman who fired

 3     his rifle accidently wounding a soldier of mine and a bus driver.

 4        Q.   What time of day was it when you arrived in Bratunac in relation

 5     to the time when you left Nova Kasaba?

 6        A.   Around quarter past 9, 9.30 in the evening.  It was already dark.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us more about the handover process; how did that go?

 8        A.   I was at the head of the column.  I reached the gate of the

 9     elementary school courtyard.  We waited there for the members of the

10     civilian police.  I came out of the armoured vehicle.  One of the

11     civilian policemen came to meet me, I told him we had POWs.  He said I

12     that he was informed of it and said that I should move the armoured

13     vehicle so the buses could start entering the courtyard.

14        Q.   How long did you stay there?

15        A.   We stayed there up to half an hour to make room for them to pass

16     through and to dress the wounds of the soldier and driver after the

17     incident had happened.

18        Q.   Were you still there as the last bus or truck entered the school

19     compound?

20        A.   No, I wasn't.  Not all of them entered the compound because there

21     was not enough room.  I simply handed them over to the policemen, we

22     dressed their wounds.  He asked me how many of them were they, I said I

23     didn't know, and he said they would count them.  And he said, Okay, you

24     are free to go.  We went back, I was at the front followed by the Praga

25     and we went back to the Nova Kasaba command.

Page 24994

 1        Q.   Were there any problems on your way back to Nova Kasaba?

 2        A.   Yes.  In the environs of Kravica, we were ambushed.  Myself and

 3     the Praga commander, there was fire opened at us because by the time I

 4     was back at the commands, all I had left were five or six rounds.  I had

 5     spent the rest.

 6        Q.   Judging by previous answers, it was already night.  How could you

 7     then move along the road towards the command in Nova Kasaba?

 8        A.   Before we hit the ambush, we had headlights on, but after the

 9     ambush and the exchange of fire we killed the lights, actually, we only

10     had the so-called war lights on.

11        Q.   When you arrived at the headquarters of your unit, did you report

12     to Commander Malinic about what had happened?

13        A.   I did.  I told him everything.  I told him about the handover of

14     the prisoners, about the ambush, and he ordered me to replenish the ammo,

15     and to join Lieutenant Benek,who had arrived with his soldiers in the

16     command.

17        Q.   Who is Lieutenant Benek, and do you know why he arrived in the

18     meantime?

19        A.   Lieutenant Benek was the commander of a military police company,

20     the armoured APCs company, and commander probably summoned him to join us

21     with his unit because there were too few of us.

22        Q.   You also mentioned two soldiers who were members of the UNPROFOR.

23     What happened to them, were they still in the command when you came back

24     that evening?

25        A.   Yes, when I arrived to report to the commander, I found the two

Page 24995

 1     of them in the commander's office.

 2        Q.   Mr. Subotic, we have been discussing these important events and

 3     you said at the beginning that that was at the beginning of July.  Would

 4     you be able to give us a more precise date?

 5        A.   This was sometime between the 10th and the 15th of July.  I know

 6     that there was a shift changeover around the 10th, and this happened

 7     maybe two or three days after the changeover of soldiers and commanders

 8     which took place on that date.

 9        Q.   You spent a long time with the military police battalion, you

10     said that it was between 1992 and 1995 or even 1996.  During that period

11     of time who was the commander of the battalion?

12        A.   During all that time, i.e., between December 1992 and January or

13     February 1997, the commander was Major Zoran Malinic.

14        Q.   Who was his superior?

15        A.   The battalion was on the strength of the 65th Motorised Regiment

16     and the commander of that unit throughout all that time was

17     Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic.

18        Q.   In addition to the patrol duties, you said that you also provided

19     security for the facility.  Did you also provide security for the Main

20     Staff during the period between 1992 and the moment you left the unit?

21        A.   Yes, that was one of our priorities.  That was the raison d'etre

22     of our battalion.  Our priority was to provide security for the Main

23     Staff of the army of Republika Srpska.  And on several occasions, I was

24     the commander of that security for the Main Staff.

25        Q.   Did you know Colonel Ljubisa Beara?

Page 24996

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   On that day, or maybe the following day, did you see

 3     Colonel Beara in Nova Kasaba?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   How long did you stay in Nova Kasaba?  Did you stay until the end

 6     of the month?

 7        A.   No.  I left the next day around 3 or 4 or 5 o'clock in the

 8     afternoon.  I asked the commander to grant me leave.

 9        Q.   Was the leave granted?

10        A.   Yes, it was the anniversary of my brother's death, and the

11     commander was supposed to come with me because my brother had been a

12     member of the same battalion that I belonged to; so it would be customary

13     for my commander to go with me.

14        Q.   What was the date of the anniversary?  When were you supposed to

15     commemorate that event?

16        A.   The 16th of July, that was also my brother's birthday.

17        Q.   Mr. Subotic, you were saying that you left Nova Kasaba in the

18     afternoon.  Until then were the two UNPROFOR officers still in

19     Nova Kasaba all the time while you were there?

20        A.   The two United Nations soldiers, I received an order from the

21     commander to escort them to a place near Srebrenica, and I believe that

22     the name of the place is Potocari.  That's where their base was.

23        Q.   Why you?  Why anybody from the military police battalion if they

24     had their vehicle, their weapons?

25        A.   They asked to provide --

Page 24997

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we'll stop.  Mr. Mitchell.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Objection, leading, Your Honour.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  We don't see it leading.  Go ahead, please, can you

 5     answer the question.  Why were you asked to escort them when they had

 6     their own vehicle, their own weapons?  You were about to start answering

 7     the question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  They wanted us to provide security

 9     for them because they believed that they could not reach their base

10     safely, and that's why they asked Major Malinic to give them escort,

11     somebody from the patrol.  And this was granted by our commander.

12             MR. NIKOLIC:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] So did you escort them and up to where, to which

14     place?

15        A.   Yes.  First they wanted to take their own vehicle; however, the

16     vehicle wasn't armoured and there was still shooting going on, on the

17     road; and that's why they decided to leave their weapons and their

18     vehicles and get on our armoured combat vehicle.

19        Q.   So did you drive them to their destination?

20        A.   Yes, we did.  We took them to Potocari, to their base.

21        Q.   When was that in respect of the previous event, and what was the

22     time when you drove them there?

23        A.   That was on the following day, one day after the event; and it

24     was around 11 o'clock or maybe noon or sometime in the afternoon maybe.

25        Q.   At your request, Commander Malinic allowed you to go on leave.

Page 24998

 1     When did you leave the unit?

 2        A.   I left in the afternoon because the commander told me if

 3     Lieutenant Jevdjevic did not come to take over I wouldn't be able to go;

 4     however, Lieutenant Jevdjevic turned up sometime around 1 or 2 o'clock in

 5     the afternoon and he personally drove me to Milici.

 6             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Subotic.  I have no

 7     further questions for us.  Your Honours, I have completed my

 8     examination-in-chief.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I have no question for this witness, Your

11     Honours.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Ms. Nikolic.

13             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Lazarevic, you had asked for ten

15     minutes.

16             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I did I asked for 10 minutes,

17     but I'm believe it might take a bit longer.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's okay.  No big problem.

19             MR. LAZAREVIC:  With your permission of course.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Unless it is too much longer, in which case we will

21     intervene.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I hope not.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Subotic, I'm Aleksandar Lazarevic and together

25     with my colleagues, I represent Ljubomir Borovcanin in this case.  I'm

Page 24999

 1     going to ask you a certain number of questions with regard to your

 2     testimony so far.  These will be relatively simple questions; however if

 3     any of them are not clear to you, please tell me that and I'll rephrase.

 4     Are you ready to start?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Subotic, what was your rank in 1994?

 7        A.   I was a corporal.

 8        Q.   Did you have the same rank in 1995 or were you promoted in the

 9     meantime?

10        A.   In 1995 or in 1996, I became sergeant.

11        Q.   Very well.  In answering my learned friend's questions, you

12     already said that in 1994 and in 1995 you were a member of the 65th

13     Protection Regiment and that you performed different duties.  Can you

14     please tell us more specifically in 1994 in January and February what

15     were your duties at that time, if you can remember, as a member of the

16     65th Regiment?

17        A.   I don't know.  Maybe I was the warden of our internal military

18     prison for our own members.

19        Q.   Thank you very much.  We will move very quickly through all that.

20     Can we now see in e-court, and you will see it on your screen document

21     number 4D00538.  These are the cover pages of a file.  Could you please

22     go to the next page of this document.

23             Mr. Subotic, you say that this document bears the stamp of the

24     65th motorised protection regiment in the left top corner, the date is 19

25     January, 1994 and you can see that this document is sent to the Main

Page 25000

 1     Staff of the Army Republika Srpska and that this document is actually a

 2     report and the duties of the officers of the 65th motorised protection

 3     regiment in the Army Republika Srpska.  You can see it yourself, can't

 4     you.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Tell me, please, did you have an occasion to see this document

 7     before?

 8        A.   I can't remember.  I don't think so, but I wouldn't be sure.  I

 9     have seen something similar that I was supposed to sign when I was

10     appointed; but I don't think this was the same document.

11        Q.   Very well.  Let's go to the last page of the same document,

12     please.  The page number is 05298049.  This is the ERN number of the

13     document.  And at the very bottom of the document you will see that Major

14     Milomir Savcic was the commander and that somebody signed on his behalf;

15     is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, that was somebody who was acting on behalf of the commander

17     when the commander was away.  Who was authorised to represent the

18     commander.

19        Q.   Let's now pay attention to number 41 in this document you see

20     that the person's name under 41 is Nikodin Borovcanin, sergeant by rank,

21     who was the commander of the first squad of the technical maintenance

22     platoon and at the same time administrator of the materiel supplies of

23     the logistics company.  Isn't that what it says here?

24        A.   Yes, you are right.

25        Q.   Did you personally know Mr. Nikodin Borovcanin?

Page 25001

 1        A.   I think so.  I believe that the name does ring a bell.

 2        Q.   And to your best recollection, was Mr. Nikodin Borovcanin in

 3     1995, in July 1995, was he a member of the 65th Motorised Regiment?

 4        A.   I think so.

 5        Q.   And while we were still looking at the document, obviously on the

 6     44 you can see a name by Bojan Subotic, sergeant head of detention unit

 7     of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment; can you confirm that was what

 8     is stated in this document?  I apologise, you will have to speak out and

 9     say your answer into the microphone, so it may be recorded.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at another document, 4D00539 is

12     the number of that document.  It seems that this document has not been

13     put on e-court yet.  I will, therefore, provide you with a hard copy of

14     the document, and the copies of it have already been distributed amongst

15     other participants in the proceedings.

16             Just for the record, this is a logbook of daily orders of the

17     65th Motorised Protection Regiment, and the page that you have before you

18     bears the ERN number 06276263.  [In English] I apologise for the

19     transcript, on page 42 line 9 [sic] it says 65th motorised, it says here

20     the detection regiment but it's protection regiment.

21             [Interpretation] Maybe we could place a copy of the document on

22     the ELMO, if I could ask for the usher's assistance.  Well, it seems that

23     it is in e-court after all.  No, it is not.  Yes.

24             [In English] Maybe for the benefit of the accused, the B/C/S

25     version should be put on the ELMO.

Page 25002

 1             [Interpretation] Mr. Subotic, let's look at the daily order.  On

 2     the left-hand side of this document, and you will see that the date is

 3     the 10th of July 1995, and under item 1 entitled "On Duty Service" the

 4     names mentioned are Nikodin Borovcanin and his assistant soldier

 5     Jugoslav, Dzambas, can see that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And they have been appointed as officers on duty for the 11th of

 8     July 1995 as well pursuant to this daily order, wouldn't that be the

 9     case?

10        A.   Yes.  Until sometime around 8 or 9 o'clock in the morning, I

11     believe.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.  Well performing the duties, the persons who

13     are appointed as duty officers, do they have access to the means of

14     communication with other units?

15        A.   Are you referring to the other units of the regiment or all the

16     other units of the VRS?

17        Q.   Both, the regiment and the VRS?

18        A.   Only with some of the units of the regiment.  As for the rest,

19     they would not be able to communicate with them.

20        Q.   And just one more question, if you know, of course, in addition

21     to Mr. Nikodin Borovcanin were there any other persons sharing the same

22     family name in the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment, and I'm not only

23     referring to the officers, but also the foot soldiers, as far as you can

24     remember?

25        A.   Yes there were.  I remember both soldiers and civilians serving

Page 25003

 1     in the army.  They were mostly serving in the logistics units either as

 2     cooks, drivers and so on and so forth.  That's when it comes specifically

 3     to the 65th regiment, I can't remember their first names; but there were

 4     some people sharing the same family name.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much, we will no longer need this document.

 6             Now, I would like to move on to another topic.

 7             In the course of your testimony you have spoken about

 8     General Mladic arriving in Nova Kasaba and delivering a speech in the

 9     stadium and then after that buses started arriving.  If I understand you

10     well, General Mladic was the one who issued the order for the transport

11     to be organised from Nova Kasaba to Bratunac, wouldn't that be correct.

12        A.   Yes.  And when it came to escorting prisoners of war, he was the

13     one who issued the order, and as far as I could understand, he was the

14     one to issue all the other orders for the transport to be organised.

15        Q.   And was General Mladic the one that said that the prisoners

16     should be transported to the school, Vuk Karadzic, in Bratunac and

17     nowhere else?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And General Mladic was also the one who told you to hand them

20     over to the civilian police in Bratunac, that was also General Mladic,

21     wasn't it?

22        A.   Yes.  My commander asked him specifically who should all those

23     people be handed over to, and he answered everything will be organised,

24     you will hand them over to the public security station in Bratunac, to

25     the police in Bratunac.

Page 25004

 1        Q.   In the course of your testimony, I paid attention to one little

 2     detail.  You said that the prisoners had been listed, their names were

 3     taken, those that were in Nova Kasaba, was actually a list made of all

 4     their names, do you know?

 5        A.   As far as I could notice, as I was returning with a group of

 6     prisoners, I found the Staff-sergeant Janusevic taking their details

 7     according to the rules of the military police.  As far as I remember,

 8     some lists had been drafted, but I don't know to they were handed over

 9     to.  I don't know what happened to the list.

10        Q.   I apologise we have to wait and make a short breaks to allow for

11     the answers to be recorded.

12             If I understand you well, you were the one who organised security

13     for the convoy.

14        A.   Yes, Major Malinic, my commander, and myself.

15        Q.   And in escorting the convoy, you were the officer with the

16     highest rank, the rest were foot soldiers, am I correct?

17        A.   Yes, I was the highest ranking officer on the BOV.  And the

18     commander of Praga who had a higher rank but he was not a member of the

19     military police.  He was an artilleryman.

20        Q.   So the Praga was not on the strength of the 65th Protection

21     Regiment was it?

22        A.   No, you are wrong, the Praga was on the strength of the 65th

23     Protection Regiment.

24        Q.   I apologise, I misunderstood your answer.  In any case, from your

25     previous answer I understand that you did not have any lists on you, no

Page 25005

 1     lists of prisoners when you set off from Kasaba and headed towards

 2     Bratunac?

 3        A.   I remember that I had specifically asked the commander to provide

 4     me with those lists, but the commander replied that he would send the

 5     list officially by official channels to the police over there.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Were you told that the prisoners were supposed to be

 7     handed over to the military police as a matter of fact, the military

 8     police of the Bratunac Brigade when you arrived at the Bratunac school?

 9     Was that something that was ordered to you, something to that effect?

10        A.   No, I heard General Mladic's orders loud and clear and Commander

11     Malinic was also there, and he can confirm my words.  General Mladic

12     specifically ordered us to hand over the prisoners to the police, and the

13     police was waiting for us there.

14        Q.   You've already spoken about that, but let me just clarify

15     something.  At that moment your commander was Lieutenant Colonel

16     Milomir Savcic, can you confirm that at the time of these events, this

17     was indeed the case?

18        A.   I think so.  I think it was the lieutenant colonel.

19        Q.   In any case, Milomir Savcic was the commander of the 65th

20     mechanized Protection Regiment?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you know that Mr. Savcic provided a statement to the

23     Prosecutor's Office of The Hague Tribunal on the 17th October 1995?

24        A.   I didn't know that.

25        Q.   Could we please have in e-court document 1D00196, page 57 in the

Page 25006

 1     B/C/S and 37 in the English version.

 2             Sir, on your right-hand side you see page 57 of the statement

 3     provided by General Savcic to the Prosecutors of The Hague Tribunal.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  To the investigators, interpreter's correction.

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation]  Please focus on the following sentence, it is

 7     on the bottom half of the page beginning with "yes, yes, yes."  Can you

 8     read out what it says?

 9        A.   The left side or the right side of the screen?

10        Q.   The right side.  Start from -- can you see that there is a

11     question just before that and there's an answer which says there were

12     some military policemen there escorting the convoy which means that

13     Mladic came with the buses, trucks and other stuff.

14        A.   Can I read it out loud?

15        Q.   You don't have to do that, you can read it for yourself.  Did you

16     manage to read the whole paragraph that begins with "yes, yes, yes."  It

17     is clear in the paragraph that the prisoners were handed over to the

18     military police of Bratunac Brigade and that they had geographical

19     jurisdiction.  This is what Savcic said to the Prosecutor?

20        A.   I can see that, but I know who I handed them over to.  I remember

21     the incident when the policeman wounded soldier of mine and a driver.  It

22     was the policeman who took over the prisoners.

23        Q.   Therefore you stand by what you said today?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I listened to your testimony today and since that Colonel Beara's

Page 25007

 1     Defence provided us with some proofing notes for your testimony.  I

 2     noticed something there that you didn't say today.  I just wanted to put

 3     it to you.

 4             At that time during the proofing you told Colonel Beara's Defence

 5     that you handed the prisoners over to a civilian police who held the rank

 6     of lieutenant; is that correct?

 7        A.   He did not sport any rank, but that's how he introduced himself.

 8        Q.   Very well, but he surely didn't tell you, I am a lieutenant; did

 9     he also share his first and last name with you?

10        A.   Yes, his last name, but I can't recall it.

11        Q.   You can remember neither the first nor the last name of the

12     person?

13        A.   I cannot, that was the first and the last time I saw him.

14        Q.   Can you describe him for us, as best you can remember, his

15     height, age?

16        A.   He was rather tall, heavily built, dark hair.  He was a bulky

17     man.

18        Q.   What about the uniform he wore, could you describe it for us?

19        A.   He had a blue camouflage uniform worn by the police in towns and

20     settlements.

21        Q.   What about the other two policemen, you said that he was there

22     plus another two policemen, did they have the same uniform or different

23     ones?

24        A.   The ones who waited there with their official vehicle had the

25     same uniforms.  Around the school, there were other policemen wearing the

Page 25008

 1     same uniforms.  There were also many civilians wearing parts of the

 2     military uniform just a pair of pants or a shirt.

 3        Q.   What about the uniform, did it consist of only one or several

 4     parts, of course I mean the police uniforms we've been discussing?

 5        A.   I think they were made of two parts.  They had blue police vests.

 6        Q.   What about any insignia?

 7        A.   It only said "police."

 8        Q.   You said you did not see what the rank of the policeman was but

 9     that he introduced himself as a lieutenant; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Mr. Subotic, if you were to tell you that in July 1995 in the

12     police of Republika Srpska there were no ranks at all and that they were

13     introduced only as of November that year, would that mean anything to you

14     concerning your testimony?  Do you still stand by what you said?

15        A.   Yes, I do.  I am familiar with that fact.  Before that time they

16     did have ranks, and they went by those ranks.  I don't know whether he

17     lied to me or not.  He said I'm a lieutenant of the Bratunac police by a

18     particular last name that I cannot recall right now.

19        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Subotic, before this Tribunal there was testimony

20     that it was the military police of the Bratunac brigade that was securing

21     the prisoners in the Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic school in Bratunac.  In

22     order to be able to support that, I'd like to direct your attention to a

23     certain pages of transcript of the 9th of November 2006, pages 3805,

24     3806, and 3909.  Then in the Blagojevic, Jokic case pages 5732 and 5733.

25     Such testimony came directly from members of the military police of the

Page 25009

 1     Bratunac brigade as well as from officers of the Bratunac brigade.  They

 2     all said it was the military police of the Bratunac brigade that was

 3     securing the Vuk Karadzic school.  Having in mind everything I've just

 4     said, do you still stand by what you've said, i.e., that it was the

 5     civilian police that was securing the school?

 6        A.   I don't know who was securing the school, and at what time.  What

 7     I do know is who it was that I handed the POWs to.  It is possible that

 8     the military police was providing security for some facilities including

 9     the school, I don't know what their authority was, but I handed over the

10     POWs to the civilian police to a patrol with an official vehicle which

11     had rotation lights on because by that time it was already dark.

12        Q.   Very well, thank you.

13             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I have no further questions.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.  Ms. Fauveau?

15             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic?

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Subotic.  Good morning, Your

19     Honours.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please speak into the

21     microphone.  We cannot hear the counsel, he needs to speak into the

22     microphone.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic, we didn't receive ...  [Microphone not

24     activated] what was happening the reason is that it is you are too far

25     from the microphone the interpreters couldn't hear you.

Page 25010

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  I will change the position.  Is it better now?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It is not the microphone

 3     it is the fact that Mr. Krgovic should speak into the microphone.  He is

 4     too far from it.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think I would suggest that you switch on the

 6     other one.  Keep it as high as possible because that seems to be the

 7     problem.  You are too tall.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  I will try to come closer.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Subotic, during your testimony, my learned

10     friend, Mr. Nikolic, asked you about the date when the events you've been

11     describing took place.  You said that it was two or three days after the

12     shift, the rotation of the shift.  It is evident before this Tribunal

13     that those events took place on the 13th of July 1995, would you accept

14     that as far as you can tell?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone was off.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] In your answers you've been talking about

19     certain measures you took.  Before you encountered the 28th column on

20     that morning the 13th of July 1995, did you or commander receive a

21     specific order that would have to do with a passage of the Muslim column

22     or did you react spontaneously as a result of the fact that the column

23     simply showed up?

24        A.   We had received no orders, at least I didn't.  I can't tell but

25     commander Malinic.  But in any case, he never told me that I should

Page 25011

 1     strengthen the patrol.  We reacted spontaneously.  There was a shift

 2     change and people went home.  Had anything been planned, I believe the

 3     people would not have been allowed to go home.  There would not have been

 4     any shift change.

 5        Q.   On the 13th of July you and your commander as far as you can

 6     tell, received no specific orders from your superior commands concerning

 7     the way you should conduct yourselves and in that situation?

 8        A.   No, at least I didn't.

 9        Q.   Until what time did most of the Muslim shoulders remain at the

10     Nova Kasaba stadium?  You said that by noon there were 4 to 500, and then

11     some others came.  Until what time were they at the stadium in Nova

12     Kasaba?

13        A.   Until we formed the column to Bratunac, that's where they were

14     taken.  I'd say, 7, 7.30 in the evening.

15        Q.   And by that time you were not informed by your commander of the

16     existence of any particular orders that would have to do with the passage

17     of the Muslim column?

18        A.   No, there was no specific order.  We were both there at the

19     stadium and the command truth be said, we didn't know what was going on.

20     It was the prisoners who told us that they belonged to a brigade or a

21     division.

22        Q.   Mr. Subotic, during that period did you establish a checkpoint in

23     order to control the road between Zvornik and Bratunac in Nova Kasaba?

24     Did you maintain control of that road?

25        A.   Yes.  It was one of the duties of my regular patrol to control

Page 25012

 1     the traffic, and we were supposed to do that together with the Milici

 2     police station; but on that morning I did send out a soldier who used to

 3     be at the gate as a duty soldier to the road to control the traffic and

 4     to tell people that they shouldn't use the road since they could be

 5     opened fire at.

 6        Q.   And I suppose you were informed of all persons who on that day

 7     passed by arriving in Nova Kasaba and saw and had access to the soldiers?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  To the prisoners.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  When it comes to the military

10     police, the answer would be yes.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The military and the police.

12             MR. KRGOVIC:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Subotic, do you know General Gvero?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   On that day in Nova Kasaba when the journalists, came, the teams

16     of journalists, did you see General Gvero among them?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And save for General Mladic whom you saw, there were no other

19     high ranking officers in Nova Kasaba on that day, would that be correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Subotic, you described the regular duties of your patrol, the

22     military police.  In addition to that did you ever escort officers from

23     the Main Staff who would go to the frontline or to the meetings that were

24     connected with a high level of risk?

25        A.   Yes, that was our specialty as part of our anti-terrorist

Page 25013

 1     training.

 2        Q.   As you performed those duties, did you ever escort General Gvero?

 3        A.   Yes, several times.

 4        Q.   I suppose before the events that were -- took place in July 1995?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Tell me, please, how did you go, did you go in the same car or

 7     did you travel in a separate car behind the general or in front of him?

 8        A.   We shared the same vehicle.  We travelled together.

 9        Q.   Do you remember any specific trip that took place between April

10     and June 1995?  Did you escort General Gvero anywhere that you can

11     remember?

12        A.   I believe that I escorted him to Banja Luka to an assembly

13     meeting.  I believe that there had been some threats against the general

14     on the part of Karadzic, I believe or somebody like that.

15        Q.   Do you remember the vehicle that you travelled in on that

16     occasion?  Do you remember the make or the colour or both?

17        A.   It was a green car and it was either an Opal or a Renault.  In

18     any case it was a greenish colour I can't remember the make exactly but

19     it was either an Opal or a Renault.

20        Q.   Did you ever see General Gvero travelling in a black car?

21        A.   No, I can't remember that.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Subotic, I have no further

23     questions for you.  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa?

25             MR. SARAPA:  No questions, thank you.

Page 25014

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Mitchell.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mitchell:

 3        Q.   Thank you, Your Honours.  Good afternoon, Mr. Subotic.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   My name is Christopher Mitchell I'm going to ask you a few

 6     questions on behalf of the Prosecution about your testimony today.

 7             I'd like to start off just asking you a couple of questions about

 8     the structure of the 65th Protection Regiment.  You've told us that in

 9     July 1995, the commander of the 65th Protection Regiment was

10     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic; correct.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And the commander of the military police battalion was

13     Major Zoran Malinic; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And his nickname was "Zoka"; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, the deputy commander of the military police battalion, that

18     was Alexander Lucic; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And the commander of the first military police company was

21     Marinko Jevdzevic; correct?

22        A.   Marinko Jevdzevic was the commander of the anti-terrorist

23     company.

24        Q.   Now, Jevdzevic returned Nova Kasaba from Sarajevo on 14 July;

25     correct?

Page 25015

 1        A.   Yes, one day after the event he arrived and I left.

 2        Q.   Okay.  But on the day of the fighting, on the 13th, the other

 3     officers Major Malinic, Aleksander Lucic, they were in the Nova Kasaba

 4     area?

 5        A.   I remember that Malinic was there, but I don't know about Lucic.

 6     I can't remember.  It's possible that he was there.  Usually the

 7     commander and his deputy are not in the same place.  One is normally on

 8     leave, but it is possible that he was also there.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to just take you very quickly to, can I have 65

10     ter number 3621.  Page 12 in the English and page 11 in the B/C/S.  So

11     this is an interview with Zoran Malinic from December 2005.  I just want

12     to read you little bit of it.  He is talking about the 12th of July when

13     he received information from General Zivanovic about the column arriving

14     and he says he is talking about the measures he can take with the number

15     of soldier that is he had.  He says:

16             "I think that cure during that evening we called senior officers

17     and soldiers that were sent home earlier.  Any soldier that was actually

18     still close to where we were.  I remember two senior officers, one of

19     them was my deputy, he had already gone on leave.  And he wasn't there on

20     the 12th, so he returned back on the 12th so that he could be with us."

21             So Zoran Malinic, he is saying that Alexander Lucic returned back

22     on the 12th of July to be with the unit in Nova Kasaba; correct?

23        A.   It is possible that he returned on the 13th, on the 12th he was

24     on leave.  I know that the commander and his deputy are not in the same

25     place at the same time, but anything is possible.  I'm not sure about the

Page 25016

 1     12th, but I'm sure that he was there or I seem to remember that he was

 2     there on the 13th.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, so what was your rank in July 1995?

 4        A.   Corporal.

 5        Q.   And how many men were there in your unit?

 6        A.   Six.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And did you receive reinforcements during the day on the

 8     13th when all the fighting was happening?

 9        A.   Yes, in the evening Lieutenant Benek arrived with two APCs and

10     some 30 men or thereabouts.

11        Q.   But during the day, it was you and your six men?

12        A.   Yes, I had six men.  However, on that particular day, I only had

13     five because one soldier was on leave.

14        Q.   Okay.  And you were running short on ammunition as well?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So it's your testimony that you and five soldiers with limited

17     ammunition arrested hundreds and hundreds of Muslim men along the road in

18     Nova Kasaba?

19        A.   We did not arrest them.  They surrendered to us.  There is a big

20     difference between arrest and surrender.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, so you told us that the road was under fire all day;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   But despite being under fire and you having very limited

25     resources, you told us that you took two soldiers and went into the woods

Page 25017

 1     because you were told that there were more Muslims there; correct?

 2        A.   There is no reason not to believe 200 or 300 men who were telling

 3     me the same story.  I knew where they were coming from, and there was no

 4     reason for me not to believe what side they were on.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So on the 28th of August this year, we received a copy of

 6     a statement that you gave to the Beara Defence; and I'd just like to read

 7     back a little bit of that statement to you, if I can.  Can I put a copy

 8     on the ELMO, please.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

10             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] This is not a statement but a

11     proofing note.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

13             MR. MITCHELL:

14        Q.   Now, I'll just read back what you said to the Beara Defence team.

15     They said:

16             "The witness bought several of the prisoners to show him where

17     the rest of the Muslim soldiers are, and then he came to the place where

18     many dead Muslims killed in the fighting amongst themselves as well as

19     one Muslim who was hanged."

20             Now, sir, in your statement you said that there were many dead

21     Muslims killed in the fighting; correct?  Killed in the fighting among

22     themselves.

23        A.   When I took the two Muslim prisoners to where they led me, I

24     realized that the 500 dead bodies were the result of their in-fighting.

25        Q.   That's what I'm interested in, sir.  You told the Beara Defence

Page 25018

 1     team that there were many dead Muslims killed in the fighting, and today

 2     we hear 500 bodies.  Did you tell the Beara Defence team that there were

 3     500 bodies?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I can't remember the details of our conversation,

 5     but I remember well that in two or three place that I inspected, there

 6     were around 500 bodies as a result of suicide, shots in the head,

 7     irregular wounds as a result of hand grenade suicides; and I still

 8     remember the picture of that young man who had hung himself.

 9        Q.   That's the next thing I'd like to ask you about.  In your

10     statement you said that there was one Muslim who was hanged, and yet

11     today you testified that some people hanged themselves.  Do you remember

12     saying that?

13        A.   First of all, I never provided any statements to anybody.  I did

14     talk to the Defence, but I did not make any notes.  Maybe they did not

15     reconstruct properly what I told them.  I remember that I told them that

16     I saw one person who had hanged himself.

17        Q.   Sir, you testified earlier today that you placed your Praga and

18     its crew at the dangerous bend in the road near Nova Kasaba; do you

19     remember that?

20        A.   I suppose I remember.  I only mentioned Praga as the vehicle at

21     the back of the convoy of prisoners when we escorted them to Bratunac.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can just have one moment, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Sir, I'd like to move to a different area now, and ask you some

24     questions about the prisoners who were at the Nova Kasaba stadium on 13

25     July.  You testified that when you first came to the stadium there were

Page 25019

 1     around 500 prisoners there; correct?

 2        A.   No.  When I first arrived at the stadium there was nobody there.

 3     That was very early in the morning.  The first group consisting of some

 4     15 members surrendered, and then another group of some 2 to 300 of their

 5     members surrendered to me personally; and then I took that second group

 6     to the stadium.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So this is later in the morning that there's 500 men at

 8     the stadium?

 9        A.   Around noon or maybe 1300 hours, it was at that time that there

10     were about 500 people in the stadium.

11        Q.   Sir, we have evidence in this case that by 1400 hours there were

12     over 1.000 prisoners being held at the Nova Kasaba stadium.  Does that

13     help you remember when you saw 500 men at the stadium?

14        A.   Well, I don't know whether there were 1400 men.  As far as I can

15     remember, the total number was around 1.000 or 1200 at the most.  1400

16     seems like a lot, and as for the 500 that I saw, it was around 12 or

17     maybe half past 12 or 1300 hours.  I wouldn't be sure.  And it's really

18     not a very easy thing to be very specific about, time.

19        Q.   So just to summarize, sir, on the 13th of July you spent sometime

20     at the stadium in Nova Kasaba, you spent a lot of time patrolling the

21     road, at one point you went down to Milici to get bread, and later on in

22     the afternoon you led the convoy buses to Bratunac; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So it's fair to say that you moved around a lot on that day,

25     isn't it?

Page 25020

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I've just a couple of questions about a different area.  Sir, you

 3     told us that you saw two UN soldiers at your command in the morning;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did you only see two soldiers or did you see any other UN

 7     soldiers?

 8        A.   That morning there were two, and the day before I believe a day

 9     or maybe two days before there were several UN soldiers, they came to and

10     fro; they looked for some security as far as I can remember.  But on that

11     particular day there were only two.

12        Q.   Now, at any point during that day did you see any UN soldiers

13     being placed on top of a UN APC or a BOV where there were Serb soldiers

14     inside that APC or BOV?

15        A.   I did see their vehicles.  I don't know what kind of vehicles

16     those were, but I did not see our troops in any of them.  When I say our

17     troop, I mean the troops of the VRS.

18        Q.   You didn't see any VRS soldiers in the UN vehicles?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   At any point did you see any Serb forces, any Serb soldiers

21     wearing or using United Nations equipment?

22        A.   You mean on that day or in more general terms?

23        Q.   On that day?

24        A.   No.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  I think it might be time for the break, Your

Page 25021

 1     Honour.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have a 25 minute --

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  Excuse me?  Sorry, Mr. President, if we could just

 4     have an indication of the time because I think the next witness is here,

 5     should we keep him, if you don't mind.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough, Mr. Ostojic.  Yes, Mr. Mitchell?

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  Less than half an hour, Your Honour.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  It's my understanding we have approximately 10 to

 9     15 minutes, it still depends on the other questions but just so the Court

10     is aware of it.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  What do you mean you have 10 to 15 minutes?

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  For redirect.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Redirect.  We'll finish with this witness today for

14     sure, and we can send the other witness home or not home, I don't want to

15     be misinterpreted.  Okay.  Thank you.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Mitchell, please.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             MR. MITCHELL:

21        Q.   Sir, good afternoon.

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23        Q.   Do you know where your Praga was on 13 July before you placed it

24     at the back of the convoy that went to Bratunac?  Do you know where it

25     was positioned?

Page 25022

 1        A.   In the courtyard of the school where our command was.  It was

 2     providing security for the command.

 3        Q.   Do you know if it was firing at Muslim positions?

 4        A.   It fired on one or two occasions.  I think the first time was

 5     facing the house from which the woman had come, but I think that was the

 6     only occasion when it was discharged.

 7        Q.   So it wasn't firing into the woods at any point?

 8        A.   Well, as I said, it did fire on a couple of occasions in the

 9     direction of the house, but the house is just before the forest.  It is

10     very close to it.

11        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to go back quickly to something you said just

12     before the break.  Now, you drew a distinction between whether these men

13     were arrested or whether they surrendered.  Do you remember that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Let me ask you this question:  is it your testimony that hundreds

16     and hundreds of armed Muslims were killing themselves in the forest and

17     hundreds more were surrendering to you and your five men, but there was

18     only you and your five men on that stretch of the road, your Praga wasn't

19     even deployed on that stretch of the road?

20        A.   Yes.  It only went as far as the bridge in our direction, and it

21     was some 200 metres away from us.

22        Q.   Sir, my question was, is it your testimony that hundreds of

23     Muslims were killing themselves and surrendering, but there was only you

24     and your five men there?  It was you and your five men against hundreds

25     of armed Muslims, and yet they were surrendering to you?

Page 25023

 1        A.   Yes.  Save for myself and five of my men, our commander was there

 2     with another two or three officers from our MP battalion.

 3        Q.   Which officers were there?

 4        A.   Major Malinic, Sergeant First Class Kunusevic [phoen]

 5     Staff Sergeant Petrovic, well they are NCOs; and there may have been

 6     Captain Lucic, I think he was there, but I'm not absolutely sure.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, you testified that back at the stadium about 4 p.m.

 8     General Mladic arrived and gave a speech to the prisoners.  Now, you saw

 9     General Mladic give this speech; correct?

10        A.   Yes, it wasn't a speech as such, but he talked to the men.  I saw

11     him do that.

12        Q.   Okay.  And was Major Malinic there as well?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to ask you about an incident that happened during

15     General Mladic's speech.  And if I can have 65 ter number 2207.  It's

16     page 10 in the English.

17             Sir, this is the statement of a Bosnian Muslim man who testified

18     that he was captured near Nova Kasaba on 13 July.  He was taken to the

19     stadium in Nova Kasaba, transported to Bratunac and then ultimately to

20     the Branjevo farm where he survived the execution of over 1.000 Bosnian

21     men.  Now, he says in his testimony he talked about General Mladic's

22     speech and then he says:

23             "Then he ordered the soldiers to make a list of the names of

24     those captured.  At that moment, a prisoner got up and the Serb soldiers

25     approached.  They kicked him and hit him with their rifle butts and then

Page 25024

 1     one soldier took out his pistol and killed him.  And he was thrown into

 2     the other.  Mladic was present, he didn't respond in any way."

 3             Sir, you remember General Mladic's speech and you were there, do

 4     you also remember this man being killed in front of General Mladic.

 5        A.   I claim full responsibility that no one was killed in the

 6     presence of General Mladic.  There were no incidents of that sort

 7     whatsoever.  I remember this speech, and I remember General Mladic

 8     strictly ordering us not to beat or kill the prisoners; but to treat them

 9     in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, they were many, had they not

10     cooperated with us, me and my men would not have survived.

11             MR. OSTOJIC:  Sorry to interrupt.  On the Exhibit 65 ter number

12     2207 at page 64 line 4 my learned friend says page 10, the actual

13     transcript starts with this at 3015, so he could just give me an accurate

14     page, so I could follow along I'd appreciate it.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell?

16             MR. MITCHELL:  Page 10 in e-court.  Sorry, it's transcript page

17     3024.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

19             MR. MITCHELL:

20        Q.   Now, you've testified that later in the day you organised the

21     security for the convoy of buses and trucks that went to Bratunac;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you were ordered to go to the Vuk Karadzic school; correct?

25        A.   Yes, as ordered by General Mladic.

Page 25025

 1        Q.   Did you have any communications equipment with you when you were

 2     escorting the convoy?

 3        A.   Yes.  We had radios, GP 200 the plain police Motorolas, and we

 4     had our regular devices in both the armoured vehicle and the Praga.

 5        Q.   Now, you told us that there were six or seven buses in the

 6     convoy; correct?

 7        A.   It is six or seven, I'm not quite sure.

 8        Q.   And these buses hold approximately 75 men each; correct?

 9        A.   There may have been more.  There are I think 75 seats but perhaps

10     a bus like that could hold up to 90 or 100 because some of them can

11     stand.

12        Q.   Okay.  So it's your testimony that there were between 90 and 100

13     men on each of these buses?

14        A.   Around 90, more or less.

15        Q.   And there were also six or seven trucks in the convoy, you said?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And how many men were there in each truck?

18        A.   I really don't know.  We didn't count.  Maybe 50 or 70.  I really

19     don't know.

20        Q.   And were all the men transported in one convoy or was there

21     another one that left either before or after you?

22        A.   At that moment there were those in the stadium and the group of

23     the 15 prisoners which took prisoner first, they also went to the stadium

24     to join the convoy.  We transported all of them to Bratunac.

25        Q.   So all of them went in your convoy?

Page 25026

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, the Trial Chamber has seen a lot of evidence in this case

 3     that Muslim men were surrendering to the Serb forces all day along the

 4     Nova Kasaba, Konjevic Polje, Bratunac road just as the same they had in

 5     Nova Kasaba.  You must have seen that in your trip to Bratunac; right?

 6        A.   In certain places I could only see our soldiers and policemen.

 7     As for any specific prisoners, no.  Anyway, by that time it was getting

 8     dark but I can tell you that there were no crowds.

 9        Q.   We've heard a lot of evidence from both Serbs and Muslims about a

10     large gathering of prisoners on a meadow beside the road in Sandici,

11     which is on the road between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac.  There were

12     several hundred to 1.000 men who were detained there during the afternoon

13     of 13 July.  You don't remember seeing anything like that?

14        A.   First of all, I don't know where Sandici is.  I was securing the

15     convoy and the five or six metres around it, meaning the road, the

16     transport; that was my extent of my activity and orders.  Nothing else.

17        Q.   Sandici is on the road between Konjevic Polje and Kravica, and

18     the prisoners were detained in a meadow right next to the road.  You

19     didn't see anything like that?

20        A.   No, I did not; I had a lot on my mind.  When the column would

21     stop, sometimes I had to go to the rear to radio someone.  I was either

22     at the front or at the rear with the Praga depending on the prisoners'

23     requests for water.  That's what preoccupied all of my attention.  As for

24     the rest, I don't know.

25        Q.   Who did you talk to on the radio while you were leading the

Page 25027

 1     convoy?

 2        A.   I talked to the Praga crew commander.

 3        Q.   Can I just clarify that with you.  You just told us that you

 4     sometimes had to go to the rear to radio someone.  Wasn't the Praga at

 5     the rear?

 6        A.   I didn't go all the way to the rear to radio anyone, but to help

 7     the rear to secure passage and provide safety for the prisoners who were

 8     leaving the buses so that there would be no clashes between them and any

 9     of the soldiers or civilians who began gathering by that time.

10        Q.   And this was when you were stopping along the road and the

11     prisoners were getting out and going and having a drink at the river;

12     right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, the Trial Chamber has also heard a lot of evidence that

15     later that day those prisoners who were at Sandici were taken down the

16     road to the agricultural warehouse in Kravica and executed towards the

17     end of that day and into the night.  You were ambushed at Kravica on the

18     way back so you must know where Kravica is; correct?

19        A.   I do more or less where Kravica is, at least the centre of the

20     village.  I was ambushed as you enter Kravica itself.

21        Q.   Do you know where the agricultural warehouse is, right next to

22     the road?

23        A.   More or less.

24        Q.   Did you see any executions when you drove past that warehouse?

25     Do you remember seeing anything like that?

Page 25028

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   You didn't see any bodies outside the warehouse?

 3        A.   No.  If the warehouse is the place that I'm thinking of, there

 4     were none.

 5        Q.   Did you see any Serb forces there?

 6        A.   I saw forces along the way from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac, but

 7     not many of them.  Perhaps two or three at a time, and then I would see

 8     another group a couple of hundred metres further down the road.  This

 9     resembled patrols of sorts.

10        Q.   But you didn't see any particular concentration of them at the

11     warehouse?

12        A.   No.  The only concentration was that of the civilian police in

13     Bratunac around the school.

14        Q.   Did you here any shooting around the warehouse?

15        A.   In a distance, up in the hills, in the forest occasionally.

16        Q.   And how about on your way back from Bratunac, did you notice

17     anything unusual at the warehouse?  Anything at all?

18        A.   I was ambushed before the warehouse, if that's the building I

19     have in mind.  I ordered my soldiers to turn off our lights, to turn on

20     our war lights.  We were short of ammunition, and we kept on pressing for

21     the command because we could not engage in combat any more.

22        Q.   So you saw nothing unusual at the warehouse on your way home back

23     to Nova Kasaba?

24        A.   To tell you the truth, I couldn't even see the road then.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, can you just remind us what time did you arrive in

Page 25029

 1     Bratunac?

 2        A.   Around 9.30 in the evening, more or less.

 3        Q.   And we've heard you talk about the police to whom you handed over

 4     the prisoners.  Other than these three policemen, what other Serb forces

 5     were there guarding the prisoners?

 6        A.   I saw another police vehicle with two members in it, in the

 7     school compound.  I don't know, I couldn't see because I didn't go there.

 8     Around the buses and trucks when I arrived, there was only a large number

 9     of Serb civilians without weapons.

10        Q.   You were telling us that this school with hundreds of prisoners

11     and buses and vehicles with additional prisoners was secured by three

12     civilian police officers and Serb civilians without weapons, is that your

13     testimony?

14        A.   I really don't know whether any of the prisoners were in the

15     school.  I didn't go in.  All I can tell you is about my prisoners.

16        Q.   You handed your prisoners over to three civilian policemen,

17     that's your testimony?

18        A.   Yes, I handed them over to a member of the police who introduced

19     himself as a police officer.  He asked me how many were there, I couldn't

20     tell him and he said, Well, no matter, we'll count them.  I asked him if

21     I was free to go and he said, Yes.

22        Q.   Now, what was your understanding of what would happen to these

23     prisoners?

24        A.   To be honest in listening to General Mladic's words, I believed

25     what he told them.  However, later on in the media I heard of things.  I

Page 25030

 1     don't know whether they are true or not.

 2        Q.   What did you hear?

 3        A.   I heard in the media that there were murders around Zvornik or

 4     Pilica; I don't know exactly.

 5        Q.   The first time that you learned that the prisoners that were

 6     detained in the Vuk Karadzic school were executed, the first time you

 7     heard that was in the media?

 8        A.   Yes, since I went home the next day.

 9        Q.   Did the buses that you took the prisoners in from Nova Kasaba to

10     Bratunac, did those buses stay in Bratunac when you left?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did the buses stay at the school or did any of them go over to

13     the football stadium at Bratunac?

14        A.   I truly don't know.

15        Q.   Just to go back for a second, these reports that you said you

16     heard in the media, when did you hear these reports?

17        A.   After some 15, 20 days ago -- after that and perhaps a month

18     later.  Since I lived in Sarajevo, I could hear it on both the Bosnian

19     and Serbian television.

20        Q.   Did you see any other buses in Bratunac with prisoners on board?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   So I have one final area I'd like to ask you about.  Now, you

23     know as well as anyone that the column of Muslim men who you engaged with

24     on the 13th of July presented a grave risk to the Serb territory it was

25     travelling through; correct?

Page 25031

 1        A.   I don't know what risk they were.  I only know that I was scared.

 2        Q.   On 13 and 14 July, and particularly 15 and 16 July around

 3     Baljkovica the Serb forces were heavily engaged in fighting that Muslim

 4     column; correct?

 5        A.   I really don't know.  On the 16th of July, I was at the cemetery

 6     commemorating my late brother's death in Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   You don't know about the fighting around Baljkovica on the 15th

 8     and 16th of July?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Do you know that during that same period Serb forces were also

11     tasked to sweep the terrain around Srebrenica?

12        A.   I really don't know.  I was on leave.

13        Q.   And are you aware that Serb forces from the Zvornik brigade, the

14     Bratunac brigade, and the 65th protection regiment among others were

15     engaged in the operation against Zepa during this period?

16        A.   I said I really don't know where my unit was.  I was on leave and

17     my leave was for some seven or eight days.  I was at home.

18        Q.   Well, we know that the threat to Zvornik was so great that the

19     VRS pulled troops out from around Zepa and sent them back to Zvornik.  We

20     also know that there was talk of mobilising civilians, we know soldiers

21     were sent from the Krajina corps and MUP forces were sent from all over

22     Bosnia.  We also heard earlier that Zoran Malinic ordered his officers to

23     return on the 12th, that is Aleksandar Lucic was ordered to return.  It's

24     your testimony that in the midst of everything that was going on that you

25     were given a week's leave starting from the 14th of July?

Page 25032

 1        A.   Sir, I'm a technician.  I'm not a strategist, I really don't know

 2     what the command and the police did at the very top.  And as far as my

 3     leave is concerned, this had been arranged before because my brother was

 4     a member of the battalion of the military police the same that I was, and

 5     the commander and two more men were supposed to go as well because that

 6     is a custom in our parts.  However, because of the events, they couldn't

 7     go, and I was the only one who was allowed to go on leave.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  May I just have a moment, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you Your Honour, no further questions.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic, please try to conclude by quarter to

12     2.

13             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Nikolic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Subotic, let's just clarify some terms here.

16     When I examined you, you said that on the way back from Kravica after the

17     ambush you returned to your command under war lights.  Can you please

18     explain the notion of war lights, what is that?

19        A.   These are greenish lights, very small lights whose beam cannot be

20     more than half a metre to a metre in front of the vehicle.  Not more.

21        Q.   When Mr. Borovcanin's Defence team examined you, you were

22     confronted with General Savcic's statement provided to the OTP and in his

23     statement General Savcic stated that the prisoners that you had escorted

24     were handed over to the military police; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's what was read out to me.

Page 25033

 1        Q.   Do you know that General Savcic testified before this Tribunal?

 2        A.   No, I didn't know that.

 3        Q.   To be very objective I would like to say that it was on the 12th

 4     of September 2007, that when he testified under the same oath as you are

 5     today.

 6        A.   I've already told you that I didn't know that.

 7        Q.   On that occasion General Savcic on page 15292, line 1, was asked

 8     about the surrender of the prisoners and he stated that he remembered the

 9     event and I quote:

10             "But currently I don't have the transcript in front of me.  If I

11     said I had been hand over to the military police over the Bratunac

12     brigade then I misspoke."

13             Are you aware of that, are you familiar with that?

14        A.   I said I didn't know anything about that.

15        Q.   On the same page, line 21, General Savcic stated, "Yes, I can see

16     that but I have to correct myself."

17             Mr. Subotic, you handed the prisoners over or rather escorted the

18     prisoners from Bratunac -- to the Bratunac school, could you please

19     repeat for the Trial Chamber who you handed them over to?

20        A.   I handed them over to the civilian police, to the public security

21     station in Bratunac.  At least that was what the person who was in charge

22     introduced himself to me, he said that he was in Bratunac.  He said that

23     he was a lieutenant, and he was equipped as a policeman would be.  He

24     wore a uniform and had all the other things that would be worn by a

25     policeman.

Page 25034

 1        Q.   To my learned friend's question you described the policeman's

 2     uniform.  Are you a hundred percent sure that that was indeed what he

 3     wore?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Mr. Subotic, in your unit were there any other persons who shared

 6     the same first name "Zoran"?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Name one?

 9        A.   As far as I know there was a Lieutenant Zoran Benek, who was the

10     commander of the military police company.

11        Q.   Did he have a nickname of any kind?

12        A.   I suppose so, but I can't remember.  We all had nickname that is

13     we used in our mutual communication.

14             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I have no

15     further questions, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Documents?  Mr. Nikolic, do you have

17     any documents?

18             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic?  You've got two documents.

20             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, we already submitted ours.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  538 and 539.  Any objections Mr. Mitchell?

22             MR. MITCHELL:  No objections.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic?

24             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] None.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  And any objection from the other Defence teams?

Page 25035

 1     None.  So they are all they are both admitted.  Do you have any

 2     documents?

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  No documents.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  No documents.  Thank you.  Mr. Subotic, we've come

 5     to the end of your testimony.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber I wish to

 6     that you so much for coming here to give testimony and on behalf of

 7     everyone I wish you a safe journey back home.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Incidentally before we adjourn, in

10     relation to the previous Witness Kerkez, we admitted those photos in

11     evidence as exhibits.  Did you have any other documents that you wished

12     to tender, Mr. Ostojic?

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  We did not, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Same applies to you Mr. Thayer.

16             MR. THAYER:  That's correct, Mr. President.  So madam registrar

17     and ourselves have been actively working on a plan to accommodate the two

18     video conferences, videolinks, sorry, that are in the pipeline.  We are

19     still awaiting a confirmation that other Chambers are prepared to

20     accommodate our needs as well, so I can't guarantee that because

21     obviously everyone has its own requirements.  But if it works out, then

22     we will have Jovanovic or whatever his name is on the 9th in the morning,

23     and then the other videolink connection if we manage to swap our sitting

24     from the morning to the afternoon, it will be on the 10th and the 11th.

25     The understanding would be the following:  That having looked at the time

Page 25036

 1     estimates, you will need to finish with Jovanovic in one day, that's on

 2     the 9th, which is within the time estimates.  And the other guy on the

 3     10th and the 11th, that is two days.  And that again is within the

 4     estimates of six hours 45 minutes or something like that.  So that's the

 5     understanding.  But we will communicate to you a confirmation of this

 6     arrangement tomorrow hopefully when we have confirmation from the other

 7     Chambers.  All right.  Thank you.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 9                           1.41 p.m. to be reconvened on Tuesday, 2nd

10                           September 2008, at 2.15 p.m.