Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25584

 1                           Thursday, 11 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everybody.

 6             I note the absence of the accused Popovic and Nikolic.  We've

 7     been informed about the absence of Mr. Popovic, but what happens to

 8     Mr. Nikolic?

 9             Madam Nikolic.

10             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.  Thank

11     you.

12             Mr. Nikolic has a scheduled medical appointment, and that is why

13     he's going to be absent today.  He informed me orally about this and told

14     me that he does grant a waiver for the proceedings to continue in his

15     absence, and we're going to provide written notice of this to the Court

16     in the course of the day.

17             JUDGE KWON:  For the whole day today?  Thank you.

18             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE KWON:  And I was informed that parties have some

20     preliminaries to raise.  Yes, Ms. Soljan.

21             MS. SOLJAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.

22             Just very briefly, we wanted to inform the Trial Chamber, we've

23     mentioned to Mr. Ostojic briefly yesterday that as far as we've seen so

24     far, the Prosecution really has no issue with what the expert has been

25     saying, with what is contained in his report.  We haven't found any

Page 25585

 1     conclusions regarding authenticity or integrity of the underlying

 2     writing, and so we just wanted to make that note for the record to assist

 3     the Trial Chamber and our learned colleagues.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Does it mean that the Prosecution would accept the

 6     expert report as it is, without cross-examination?

 7             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honour, so far, unless anything new should

 8     appear in terms of a conclusion regarding authenticity or integrity, but

 9     certainly the report so far and testimony so far hasn't indicated

10     anything to the contrary.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I was overlapping.  As far as the report

12     is concerned, you are happy with it being accepted without any further

13     cross-examination?  That's what you just said?

14             MS. SOLJAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Is it Mr. Nikolic or Mr. Ostojic today?

17             Yes, yesterday, the Judges, we discussed the matter as well, and

18     we wondered where the evidence is leading us.  If the report is to be

19     admitted without any opposition or objection, are there any parts you'd

20     like to adduce from the expert witness, apart from what is written in the

21     report?

22             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

23             Mr. President, we had the intention of showing only three

24     documents today about the matter that the Prosecution pointed to, which

25     we believe violate the authenticity of these documents, and we believe

Page 25586

 1     that it would be useful for the Defence to present this evidence today.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  That means three pages?

 3             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  It's document on

 4     one:  Page 126, page 127, and page 134.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  All in 65 ter number 377?  Thank you.

 6             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Soljan.

 8             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honours, I just want to make a point.

 9             If these are conclusions that the expert is now making, we have

10     not been -- about authenticity or changing anything that's in the report,

11     we haven't been informed of this.  We haven't received any kind of a

12     proofing note.  If these are, however, conclusions that the Defence

13     attorneys are making, that's a whole other issue.  But I just wanted to

14     make that note.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nikolic, do you have any say in response to this

16     observation?

17             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             I think that the report says the opposite.  Under Roman

19     numeral VI in his findings in the report, where he actually cites that

20     there are glaring examples of separate writing that we want or entries

21     that we wanted to talk about.  After his testimony, the expert would need

22     to provide his conclusion.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Soljan.

24             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honours, regarding section 6, we agree that

25     these are separate writings, but we don't find that there is conclusion

Page 25587

 1     regarding the authenticity of those writings.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Well, the Chamber will hear, from the expert

 4     witness, what he has to say in relation to those three points on which

 5     the Defence wishes to emphasise, but I would like Mr. Nikolic to bear in

 6     mind that the Prosecution does not have any opposition in relation to

 7     part Roman VI.  That's it.

 8             And I understand there is other matters to raise.  Mr. Ostojic.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

10     Honours.

11             We had filed yesterday a motion for protective measures for

12     Witness 2DW 80, and we just -- we know it's a late motion, but we filed

13     it urgently.  We've been talking to the witness.  We believe we have

14     attached as an annex a police report in German from the country in which

15     he is at, which is not Germany; and we think that there is sound grounds

16     in our opinion that protective measures should be granted, because it

17     extends not only to him, personally, but to family members, which I could

18     address in detail if the Court wishes in private session.  So we would

19     ask that that measure be granted and that I have an opportunity to

20     discuss that with the witness as well, who's anxious to learn of your

21     decision.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Is the Prosecution in the position to answer this?

23     Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

25             Sorry about that pole.

Page 25588

 1             JUDGE KWON:  He's watching you on the monitor.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. Mitchell is prepared to deal with that issue,

 3     and we would like to explore that a little bit more, because we have

 4     reviewed the materials but we see no connection with our case and these

 5     phone calls from the materials; and that seems to be a suggestion that

 6     because the person is a witness in this case, he gets phone calls, but if

 7     you look at the timing of the phone calls, there's a lot of things that

 8     just don't add up.  So perhaps if Mr. Mitchell can speak to those, and we

 9     may request that the Court have a chat with this witness to try to sort

10     some of this out.  And if it's not a problem, then of course we won't

11     have a problem, but there's some implications and some conclusions here

12     that don't seem to completely make sense to us.  And I know it's a hard

13     thing to do in this short time, but if Mr. Mitchell could address that,

14     I'd appreciate it.  And he'll be ready.  We just hadn't gotten to it yet.

15             JUDGE KWON:  So that we can hear from Mr. Mitchell sometime

16     today?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He is ready any time -- any time you need him.

18             JUDGE KWON:  After we conclude this witness, we'll hear from him.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And there's one additional matter in relation to the

21     addition of one witness on the part of the Nikolic team.  You said you'd

22     come back to us after the first break, but we didn't have time to hear

23     from you.  I take it there's no opposition on your side.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, not to that additional witness.  We've spoken

25     of that before.  That's not a problem.

Page 25589

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  So then it is officially granted.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We better deal with it orally or in an expeditious

 4     manner in relation to the 92 ter motion from the Nikolic Defence team.  I

 5     don't have to name the witness number, but I don't remember it for the

 6     moment.

 7             So the Chamber is of the view that given that it relates to the

 8     credibility of the witness and that the hearing in viva voce would not

 9     take so long a time, the Chamber prefers to hear him viva voce, live.  So

10     we do not grant the motion from the Nikolic Defence team on the 92 ter

11     motion.

12             So prepare in that way, Madam Nikolic.

13             And I take it there's no other matters to raise.  Then let's

14     bring in the witness.

15             Yes, Madam Nikolic.

16             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not wish, in

17     the beginning, but I spoke to my client; and I would like to inform the

18     Trial Chamber that yesterday we submitted a response to the Prosecution

19     in relation to this witness that you have just announced your decision

20     about.  I would like you just to look at that submission, and

21     particularly in the view of the medical condition of the witness.

22     Perhaps that would alter your decision on this matter.  And if -- we

23     expect that this motion will be available to you in the course of the

24     morning, but if necessary we are prepared to submit a courtesy copy of

25     the motion to you.

Page 25590

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Probably I should have asked whether you filed a

 3     reply to that.  We'll take a look and we'll consider whether there's a

 4     need to reconsider our ruling in view of that motion -- in view of that

 5     reply.  Thank you.

 6             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I would be very

 7     grateful.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Well, Mr. Nikolic, for you to continue.  Bear that

 9     in mind, the Prosecution -- the points the Prosecution raised, and

10     concentrate on those three parts you emphasised.  Thank you.

11             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you, Mr. President.

12                           WITNESS:  LJUBOMIR GOGIC [Resumed]

13                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Examination by Mr. Nikolic [Continued]

15             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Gogic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   I hope you had a nice rest.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Yesterday we ended the day with the document P377, page 126, so I

21     would like us now to see this document on e-court.

22             Mr. Gogic, do you see this document on your monitor?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   In your report, under Roman VI, you said -- or you referred to a

25     very glaring document of a separate writing which has been inserted

Page 25591

 1     between the sequential entries, so I would like you to answer this.  How

 2     did you determine this, and can you explain the significance of this

 3     insertion?

 4        A.   If we disregard the first part of the entry on page 5744, and if

 5     we focus on the last two paragraphs, we can see, as it has been written

 6     down in my report, that this has been written by one and the same

 7     scriptor, that these are examples of sequential writing, and that the

 8     date that the two initial paragraphs were written in two ballpoint pens

 9     in blue; but they're different, but that the date, "14/07," was written

10     in by a graphite pencil, and it's a separate inserted entry placed

11     between these two sequential entries or, rather, between the last two

12     paragraphs on this page.

13        Q.   How did you determine that this was written by a graphite pencil?

14        A.   At the Dutch Forensics Institute here in The Hague, an analysis

15     was conducted of the inks or the means used to write the entries on these

16     pages that were subject to analysis, including this particular page.  The

17     analysis indicated the differences in the luminescent properties of the

18     inks that were used to write the last two paragraphs and the date "14/07,

19     Jokic" [Realtime transcript read in error, "Gogic"].

20        Q.   Mr. Gogic, can you please show us the photos that you made at the

21     time at the forensics institute.  So we that could practically see these

22     examples, I'm going to help.  I have a number of these documents.  This

23     is P3710, photograph number 0293-5744.

24             Can we please look at document P3710 on e-court.  This is

25     photograph number -- well, you can see it.

Page 25592

 1             Mr. Gogic, do you see this on your monitor?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I'm going to ask you now to explain to us what your findings are.

 4        A.   Well, we can see what I mentioned before.  The difference is in

 5     the luminescent properties or the fluorescence of the two ballpoint

 6     blue-ink pens of a different kind, and then you can see the difference in

 7     the clarity, the fluorescence.  Compared to that, the date, "14/07,

 8     Jokic," can be clearly seen, and it's different compared to the two

 9     entries and the two inks used to make them.

10             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Just one correction for the

11     transcript on page 8, line 13, number 12.  The date is 14/07, and the

12     last name is Gogic, and that's the last name of our expert.

13        Q.   But actually, Mr. Gogic, can you tell us what it's supposed to

14     say?

15        A.   Well, it's supposed to say "14/07, Jokic."

16        Q.   Okay, thank you.  Mr. Gogic, by analysing the documents, did you

17     determine that there were other insertions?  And if you did, where, and

18     can you please refer to the pages?

19        A.   The following page, which is also among the pages that were

20     subject to the expertise, and the page has number 029335745, there is an

21     example of an insertion or an addition of certain content, that being in

22     the upper left-hand corner -- perhaps we can look at the page on the

23     monitor.

24        Q.   Thank you.  That is page 127 of document P3711.

25        A.   Yes, yes, I see it on the screen.  What we can see here is in the

Page 25593

 1     upper left-hand corner, we have the date, "14/07."  This date is written

 2     in a graphite pencil.  Then the contents that follow were written in a

 3     blue ballpoint pen which has the required luminescent properties.

 4             Next to this entry, what else is characteristic of this page is

 5     that the inserted -- that numbers also have been inserted between the

 6     sequential entries, and those are numbers that are circled and numbers

 7     that are in parentheses.

 8             Maybe we can go back to the page which does not show any

 9     characteristics of ink.

10             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go back to page 127.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I would like to go back to the

12     same page, but which does not -- which is not actually a page showing the

13     analysis of the ink, but actually I would just like to look at -- for us

14     to look at the way the page actually looks.

15             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] That is, then, 377, page 177 [as

16     interpreted].

17             JUDGE KWON:  Page 127.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation].

20        Q.   The page number is 127, and the document number is P377, and we

21     have it now.

22        A.   We can see, somewhere in the middle of the page to the right-hand

23     side, between the sequential entries, the encircled number 30, and then

24     there's the next entry, and below that number 71, which is retraced.

25     After the next entry, there is number 35 in brackets, and finally at the

Page 25594

 1     end number 43.  All these are separate entries which were created

 2     subsequently.  They were written or entered by a different writer, not a

 3     writer B who is the author of the handwriting -- all of the handwriting

 4     on this page.

 5        Q.   Mr. Gogic, did you find any other pages showing separate entries

 6     which --

 7             JUDGE PROST:  Excuse me, Mr. Nikolic.  Just before we move to any

 8     other pages:  Professor, were you able to determine if the numbers, 3071,

 9     35 and 43, were written by the same author as the person who wrote "July

10     14th" at the top, or were you unable to determine if it was the same or

11     different?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that there was

13     "14/07," there was no possibility to compare for a very simple reason.

14     We have numbers 30, 71, 45 and 43, and we also have number 47 only on

15     this page, which is not sufficient for comparative analysis and for

16     arriving at an appropriate conclusion by any expert.  In order to provide

17     any answer to this question, we would need a representative sample, both

18     in quantitative and qualitative terms, so as to be able to exclude

19     certain writers.

20             JUDGE KWON:  The way writing the Arabics number 4 is evident --

21     apparently different, and the date, the 14th, the 4, and 43; 4 in that 43

22     is conspicuously different, isn't it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE PROST:  Just one more question on this point.

25             Professor, were you able to make any comparisons in terms of the

Page 25595

 1     ink or not ink used in both the date and then the numbers?  It looks

 2     visually, to me, different, but I wondered if you reached any conclusions

 3     on that.

 4             Thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right, visually they are

 6     different.  However, the analysis of absorptive properties showed

 7     insignificant differences between the ink of these entries and the tint

 8     that was used to enter the whole content.  This was not sufficient enough

 9     for the expert to claim at any degree of certainty that those were two

10     different types of ink.  In other words, we have to be guided by the

11     instrumental analysis.

12             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

13             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Let's continue with the separate entries that were inserted

15     subsequently.  Did you find any other pages with separately-entered

16     inscriptions?  Could we please now look at page 02935752.

17        A.   I have the page on the screen.

18        Q.   Could you please explain the character or the nature of these

19     entries?

20        A.   This is an example of a combination of separate and sequential

21     entries.  Let's look at the heading of this document, and let's start

22     from the content in the second line, excluding the word "Drago to report

23     to Mane Djukic," it says here.

24             If we look at this content, we can interpret it in two different

25     ways, either for Mane Djukic to report to somebody or for somebody to

Page 25596

 1     report to Mane Djukic.  Both is possible.

 2             Now let's look at the word "Drago."  The word "Drago" was entered

 3     subsequently, separately, and this can be best seen if we start from the

 4     basic features.  When we establish the position of the writing hand, and

 5     the hand writes from left to right as it is done in our area, then we can

 6     see a certain level of discontinuity between "Drago" and "to report to."

 7     In other words, the word "Drago," on the one hand, and "to report to," on

 8     the other, are not in the same line of writing, and to say the least this

 9     is not customary, this is not habitual.  However, in view of the

10     continuity of writing this, this should have been in the same light of

11     writing following the same direction of writing.

12             Furthermore, we have another characteristic feature, which is a

13     separation between the word "Drago," and "to report to," and especially

14     the fact that if the word starts with "Drago," then it would be only

15     logical to have the word "dijaj tu [phoen]" starting with a small

16     miniscule letter.

17             If we look at the word "Mane," we will see the traces of

18     retracings, so we don't know what was entered first.

19             The analysis of the ink that was carried out could not discern

20     between the two because it was established that in both cases, the same

21     ink was used.

22             We could also establish the sequence of strokes and we could

23     establish what came first, what was created first and what subsequently,

24     if we analysed the intersections of the strokes and the traces of the ink

25     that was used.

Page 25597

 1             If we look, the words "from Beara," again this begins with a

 2     lower case, which is not customary.  This should start with a capital

 3     letter.  This content should start with a capital letter, and it should

 4     have been entered into the beginning of the line, which is a normal

 5     feature of this writer, with some very few exceptions.  The fact that the

 6     content starts in the first line repeats only in one other page among the

 7     analysed pages.

 8             And one more thing.  When we look at the word "Drago," we will

 9     see much smaller separation between the letters that make up the word

10     "Drago," unlike the subsequent contents, i.e., the words "to report to,"

11     where the separation between the letters is much bigger and much more

12     pronounced.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.  Mr. Gogic, just a couple more questions.

14             In your report, you have stated that while looking over the

15     pages, at one place you encountered the traces of pages having been

16     ripped out; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.  Let me just look at my notes to jog my memory.

18        Q.   Could I be of assistance?

19        A.   Yes, please.

20        Q.   Look at your report, page 6, the end of the first paragraph

21     thereof, and I'm referring to the B/C/S version of your report.

22        A.   Yes.  As I was analysing the logbooks, and especially the one

23     that is composed of these pages, this is what I did towards the end of

24     September here on the premises of The Hague Tribunal.  I established that

25     between pages numbered 0293575 and 0293572, and pages number 02935753 and

Page 25598

 1     02935754, the remains of two leafs of paper that had been ripped out.

 2        Q.   Mr. Gogic, after what you told us today, you have also shown us

 3     the examples of separate entries with blatant examples of subsequent

 4     entries.  You have also pointed to some retracings and the ripped out

 5     leafs, and yesterday you also commented on various examples of retracing.

 6     I would like to hear your expert opinion.

 7             The facts that I've just already mentioned, do they jeopardise

 8     the integrity and the authenticity of this document?  And if your answer

 9     is "yes," could you please provide some explanation?

10        A.   I believe so.  In the procedure of analysing all documents, in

11     any analysis, that is, you perform a complete analysis, and within that

12     context you also look at the traces of erasing, retracing subsequent

13     entries, from the point of view of knowing that these elements may impact

14     the authenticity of a document.

15             Following that logic and analysing these contents, one may

16     establish that these elements have jeopardised the authenticity of these

17     documents.

18             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Gogic.

19             I have no more questions of this witness, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Soljan, you do not challenge the two leafs of

21     papers in the notebook are ripped out?

22             MS. SOLJAN:  No, Your Honours, we haven't challenged that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Can we see the original?

24             MS. SOLJAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  If you could tell us the page numbers again.

Page 25599

 1             MS. SOLJAN:  Between -- pages ending with 5752 [Realtime

 2     transcript read in error, "7572"] and 5753 [Realtime transcript read in

 3     error, "7573], Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Between -- oh, yes.  Thank you.

 5             Is there any Defence minded to cross-examine this witness?  I see

 6     none.

 7             Ms. Soljan?

 8             MS. SOLJAN:  Just briefly, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             Just for correction, line 18 on page 15 should read "5772 --" I'm

11     sorry, "5752 and 5753."

12             Yes, Ms. Soljan.

13             MS. SOLJAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14                           Cross-examination by Ms. Soljan:

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Gogic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Just a few questions for you.  With just one exception, you've

18     stated in your report that all retracings, alterations and crossings-out

19     had been done using an ink that is indistinguishable from the ink used in

20     the original entries; isn't that right?

21        A.   What concrete document do you have in mind?

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... ending 5747, which in

23     e-court would be 129.

24        A.   5747 --

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... 47.

Page 25600

 1        A.   5747, yes.

 2        Q.   In your report, you had stated that at this page, there was

 3     evidence of a retracing of the second star or second asterisk from the

 4     bottom up, or that appeared to be in a different pen --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That is the only such indication of a retracing or an alteration

 7     done in a different pen than the underlying ink; isn't that right?

 8        A.   Yes.  This has been retraced, yes.

 9        Q.   And the fact that all the remaining markings on the pages that

10     you analysed were made in the same ink as the underlying writing would be

11     consistent with the scenario that such writing were done within a very

12     short period of time, if not at the same time; isn't that right?

13        A.   On page 029 --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the number.

15        A.   -- these are sequential entries.  There is a physical separation

16     between the entries, and it is not possible to establish what the time

17     was.  But it can be established from the position of the writer's hand

18     and other elements that these were sequential entries all the way up to

19     the end, the last passage.

20        Q.   Now, sir, in your testimony today, you stated that one of the

21     examples of insertions would -- the insertion on page 126 in e-court,

22     which is the page ending as 5744 --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... this insertion is a pencil

25     writing "14/07" and next to it the word "Jokic"; correct?

Page 25601

 1             Now, if we could go into private session for a moment, Your

 2     Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

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25                           [Open session]

Page 25602

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

 2             MS. SOLJAN:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, if we can go to page 5752, which we have just spoken

 4     about.  This is page 134 in e-court, please.  You stated that the top

 5     entry on this page were done separately or asynchronously; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   But it is impossible, in fact, to determine over which period of

 8     time these entries were made, is it?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, sir --

13             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question.

14             MS. SOLJAN:  The question was:  Is it possible -- or the fact

15     that Mr. Gogic has not, himself, concluded over which period of time that

16     these were asynchronous or separate entries were made, entries that he

17     deems separate or asynchronous; and he has answered in the affirmative

18     that, no, he has not.

19        Q.   Now, sir, did the Defence counsel explain to you what this

20     notebook is that you were reviewing, in particular the notebook that

21     begins with numbers 0293 and has pages 5741 to 5753 you reviewed in

22     detail?

23        A.   Absolutely I did not have any knowledge about the nature of the

24     document, although I could have guessed, based on my experience, that

25     this could have been a logbook of the events that had taken place.

Page 25603

 1        Q.   Okay.  I'll just briefly tell you that this is a book in which on

 2     different dates, different duty officers responsible for writing down

 3     contents of messages that came to them every day through that day and

 4     night.

 5             Now, I would like to show you a document, an intercept, and this

 6     is Exhibit 1165, please.  If we can show 1165C.

 7             Now, this is an intercept that was taken at 2218 on the 14th of

 8     July, 1995, roughly around the time of the top entry of page 5752.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are kindly asking counsel to

10     slow down when quoting numbers.

11             MS. SOLJAN:  And page 3 of this subsection (C), please.  To the

12     bottom, please, the 2218 section.  Thanks very much.  Could we also get

13     an English translation to the side.  And the English translation is

14     1165A.  I can give a copy of the same document -- okay.

15        Q.   Now, sir, do you see this conversation?

16        A.   Towards the bottom of the page, yes.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... there are two --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Ms. Soljan, please be mindful of the possible

19     overlapping with the witness.

20             MS. SOLJAN:  Thank you.

21        Q.   There are two participants in this conversation, and are you able

22     to read it?  It begins with the participant saying:

23             "Listen, please.  Someone should find Drago Nikolic now and have

24     him call Djukic over here."

25             Participant Y says:  "To call who?"

Page 25604

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Please slow down.

 2             MS. SOLJAN:  Answer:  "Chief of Security Centre."

 3             Participant:  "Hello?"

 4             Participant Y then responds:  "Djukic."

 5             And then the rest of it is participant X, the caller, saying:

 6             "In Vlasenica.  Do you know who he is?  Chief of Security Centre.

 7     Yes.  Yes.  Could you please try to find Nikolic and have him call Djukic

 8     immediately.  Have him call when he comes -- all right.  Have him call

 9     when he comes back.

10             "Okay.  Tell him we'll meet there, where you are.  Tomorrow

11     morning at 0900.  There, where you are.  Bye."

12             Now, sir, if you look at this intercept taken on the 14th of

13     July, if you look at it side by side with the marking or with the note

14     taken at page -- on top of the page 5752, do you note the similarities?

15     Drago is mentioned, for example.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   There's also an indication that [B/C/S spoken ] Djukic, to call

18     Djukic?

19        A.   [No interpretation]

20        Q.   And it concludes, actual, with speaker X saying:  "We'll see you

21     tomorrow, where you are, at 9.00 in the morning," and there is at

22     page 5752, at the bottom of this entry, a writing that says "900, Beara

23     dola ze [phoen]" or "Beara is coming."

24             Now, sir, does this intercept clarify or make more sense about

25     the way in which a message would have been taken down or was taken down?

Page 25605

 1        A.   I have no reason to doubt that these conversations are correct or

 2     not.  This was not my call.  The only thing I can talk about is what I

 3     have before me as the object of my analysis, which means that my job was

 4     to analyse the handwriting and distinguish between synchronous and

 5     asynchronous writing.  Based on that, I claimed what I did.  Whether the

 6     two things are connected or not, I really wouldn't be able to say.  It

 7     was not up to me to be the judge of that.

 8             MS. SOLJAN:  Thank you.

 9             Your Honours, can I take just a short break for a moment, and I

10     will conclude my cross-examination very briefly?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, by all means.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honours, may I approach the witness just to

14     give him the original of this notebook?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MS. SOLJAN:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Gogic, in your report -- could we please get the bottom

18     part of page 5752 on the -- well, the whole of page 5752 on the screen.

19     This would be page 134 on e-court, in P377, of course.

20             Now, Mr. Gogic, in your report you state that this writing is an

21     example of sequential writing by scriptor B; isn't that right?

22        A.   That's right.

23        Q.   And, indeed, you also conclude that the next page, page 135 in

24     e-court -- the next page, the page between which you concluded there are

25     two ripped-out pages, is also writing by the very same scriptor B?

Page 25606

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And, indeed, if you read the sequential writings from page 5752

 3     to 5753, you observe that it's the same handwriting done by the very same

 4     person, and I will read it.  So the continuous writing begins with:

 5             "Tonight, around 20/20 hours in the wider area of Maricici, a

 6     large group passed and moved further towards the Zvornik-Caparde road.

 7     The column is about two to three kilometres' long.  Two more columns,"

 8     and an illegible bit, "in the area of Josanica and Liplje, our forces are

 9     linking up at the intersection of Crni Vrh and Snagovo in Crni Vrh,

10     Zvornik.  It is reasonable to expect even tonight or early in the morning

11     a breakthrough in the area of responsibility of the," and then you turn

12     on to the next page, "4th and 7th Battalions."

13             And note this sequential note that continues with:

14             "Find the possibility to find more forces for intervention in the

15     morning ."

16             You were able to read this, Mr. Gogic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... tell when the two pages

19     between the page ending with 5752 and 5753 were ripped out, can you?

20        A.   No.

21             MS. SOLJAN:  Thank you.  I have no more questions.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just in case, because you overlapped with the

23     translation, I didn't hear your last question.  If you could kindly tell

24     us, then, what your question was.  Probably the witness heard your

25     question so that he was able to answer.

Page 25607

 1             MS. SOLJAN:  My question was:

 2        Q.   "Mr. Gogic, you cannot actually tell when the two pages between

 3     the page ending 5752 and 5753 were ripped outer, can you?"

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Nikolic, do you have a re-examination?

 6             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 8             That concludes your testimony, Professor Gogic.  I thank you, on

 9     behalf of the Tribunal, for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and now

10     you are free to go.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE KWON:  We have just received the tender list from the Beara

14     Defence team, which lists three documents.  Any objections?

15             MS. SOLJAN:  No objections, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  None from the Prosecution.  None from the other

17     Defence teams.  They are so admitted.

18             So we'll have Mr. Mitchell in.

19             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25608











11 Pages 25608-25611 redacted. Private session.















Page 25612

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we agree that the link is not clearly

22     established, as Mr. Mitchell indicated, but for the sake of the

23     protective measures, the Chamber is satisfied the link is sufficiently

24     established.  So, therefore, it is of the Chamber's view that it is

25     better to err on the safe side, and for that reason we are granting the

Page 25613

 1     protective measures requested for by the Beara Defence team.

 2             Is the witness ready or do you like to -- just a second.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell, you have --

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  Just a different area, Your Honour.

 6             Late last night, we received a proofing note for this witness,

 7     which my friend has referred to.  It mentioned a number of new issues and

 8     some new names which we were unaware of.  They weren't contained in the

 9     65 ter summary.  At this stage, we're happy for the witness's testimony

10     to proceed, but depending on how the evidence comes out, we may ask for

11     the cross-examination to be delayed until tomorrow so that we have

12     adequate time to prepare.

13             Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  And do you have anything, Mr. Ostojic?

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm not sure what they're referring to, if --

16             JUDGE KWON:  No, not in relation to this.  So you can proceed

17     with the witness.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

19             JUDGE KWON:  So we're going to have a break in order to set the

20     electronic facilities to be ready.  Twenty-five minutes.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

24             JUDGE KWON:  If you could take a solemn declaration, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 25614

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS: WITNESS 2DW PW-19

 3                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please take a seat.

 5             Mr. Witness, I take it the Defence counsel, as well as the

 6     Witness and Victims Section of this Tribunal, have explained to you the

 7     protective measures that were given to you, and you know --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  -- what they are about.  You'll be called as a

10     pseudonym, and the people outside this courtroom cannot see your face,

11     nor hear your voice.  And whenever we deal with the identity, we'll go

12     into a private session in which people outside can't follow.  Do you

13     understand that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I'd like to check what pseudonym he has been given.

16     Registry.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the pseudonym is 2DW PW-19.

18             JUDGE KWON:  PW-19 for the Beara team.  So during the testimony,

19     you will be called "PW-19."

20             Mr. Ostojic.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22                           Examination by Mr. Ostojic:

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, just so that we can understand each other better,

24     I'm going to just instruct you on one other minor technical aspect of our

25     question-and-answer session here today.  Please pause before you give an

Page 25615

 1     answer to my question, or anyone else's, so that we may turn off our

 2     microphone, because that will assist us.  And the microphone you have

 3     specifically was one of the provisions the Court granted with respect to

 4     voice distortion, so kindly just hesitate, if you will, for a moment to

 5     give me an opportunity to turn my microphone on [sic] before you answer

 6     your question.  Do you understand?

 7        A.   I understand.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Sir, I'm going to give you a sheet, with the

 9     Court's permission, which has your pseudonym number, 2DW-PW-19.  Can you

10     confirm to us -- confirm with us whether or not that is your name on the

11     sheet that you are about to see?

12             And with the Court's permission, if I may tender it to the usher

13     who's standing to my right.

14        A.   Yes, that is my name.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  With the Court's permission, the usher, as she's

16     doing, is showing it to the Prosecution, the Defence counsel and the

17     Court.

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, the Court was kind enough to grant our request, at

19     your behest, to provide you with protective measures.  I'd like to ask

20     you a little bit about your background, and I'm asking that we do this in

21     private session so that we continue to maintain the confidentiality of

22     some vital statistics that I may be asking.

23             So with the Court's permission, I'd like to go into private

24     session for a few questions.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Before that, can I make a suggestion upon the

Page 25616

 1     comment -- recommendation of my colleagues?  How about calling this

 2     witness "DW-19" instead of "PW," in a shorter form, in order to the to be

 3     confused with --

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  I have no problem with that.  We just thought "PW"

 5     was for "Protected witness."

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I understand.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll call him DW-19.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll go back -- we'll go into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25617











11 Page 25617 redacted. Private session.















Page 25618

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are in open session already.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Sir, can you share with us if you performed any compulsory or

12     mandatory military service?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When?

15        A.   In 1990, in Split, in Dracevac.  I was a member of the

16     Anti-Terrorism Unit there, and I served until September 1991.

17        Q.   And although, sir, you told us you started your mandatory

18     military service in 1990, can you be more specific and tell us how long

19     that mandatory service was that ended in September 1991?

20        A.   Yes.  However, I remained working in the military.  I became an a

21     active serviceman, and I continued serving as a professional.

22        Q.   I'm sorry.  My question was perhaps inartful.  When -- for how

23     long did you serve during your military mandatory service?  You ended in

24     September 1991.  How long had you been there prior to that?  Was it

25     January 1990, or September 1990, or any time that you recall?

Page 25619

 1        A.   I started in September 1990, and as soon as I arrived in Croatia,

 2     the disturbances had already started, so I became a professional soldier

 3     after my compulsory military service.

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... just always looking for more

 5     details.  After your military compulsory service that ended in September

 6     1991, you continued to stay in the army from September 1991 to what

 7     period?

 8        A.   Until the end of June 1994.  I was a member of the Yugoslav Army.

 9        Q.   Now, did there come a time, in your period while you were in

10     Split, that you left Split for any reason?

11        A.   Effectively, not.  I had a ten-day leave to go home in September

12     1991, so I spent seven or maybe ten days at home and then I returned to

13     the Command of the Naval District, and that was the only time I spent

14     outside the barracks.

15        Q.   How long was your tenure in Split?

16        A.   From September 1990 to January 1992, the end of January of that

17     year.  I was the last soldier to leave the Lora barracks in Split.

18        Q.   Describe for us, if you will, the composition of your unit or the

19     members of your group in the Yugoslav Army which was in Split from 1990

20     through January 1992.

21        A.   I arrived in Split.  I became a member of the military police.

22     One platoon was an anti-terrorist platoon, and the composition was

23     multiethnic, which means that there were Croats, Muslims, Serbs,

24     Montenegrins.  All of us were there.  I believe that it was a unit that

25     was composed of the members of all ethnic groups.  There were all of us

Page 25620

 1     together.

 2        Q.   Tell us a little more, please, a little more about the hierarchy

 3     in that group.  Who is your superior or your chief?

 4        A.   My unit was chiefly used for interventions for the protection of

 5     persons, and since we were the best-trained unit, my commander at the

 6     time was Captain Vinko Pejic.  We were under his supervision.  To be more

 7     specific, the commander of my platoon -- just bear with me for a moment,

 8     please.  I can't remember the -- memory fails me here.  But in any case,

 9     Captain Vinko Pejic was my supervisor.

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How did you become familiar with him?

13        A.   At the beginning of war operations, the members of the unit were

14     deployed in the tasks of providing security for the families of our

15     officers.  As a member of that unit, I ended up providing security for

16     the Beara family, Mrs. Nada and the young Branko.  That's how I know the

17     family.  I know them very well because I spent four months practically

18     living with them.  After that, I provided security data for Mr. Beara,

19     which means I know him as well.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Ostojic, could you please make a break

21     after the witness's answer.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the spring of 1991, I was

23     deployed in Blatine, in Mr. Beara's apartment, and I was tasked with

24     protecting his son and his missus, together with another soldier who was

25     a Slovak, I believe.  Ozren Zinkoski [phoen] is his name.  We took turns.

Page 25621

 1     I was thus in charge of providing security for him and his family, and

 2     that's where I remained until the moment they left for Belgrade.

 3        Q.   Sir, forgive me for asking, but can you tell me what your

 4     ethnicity is?

 5        A.   I'm a Muslim.  Both my parents are Muslims, and that's how I

 6     declare myself, as a Bosniak Muslim.

 7        Q.   And I'm not sure if we have the specific date, but can you give

 8     us the approximate date in which you provided personal protection for

 9     Mr. Beara's wife and son, Branko, as you've mentioned?

10        A.   I believe that it was April, May, June, and it was either on the

11     22nd or the 23rd of June when the situation was already very critical and

12     the family had to move, and Mrs. Beara moved out on either the 22nd of

13     June or July.  I'm not really sure.  In any case, up to that day I was

14     practically living with the Beara family.

15        Q.   And what year is that, sir?

16        A.   1991.

17        Q.   Subsequent to that, did you have an occasion to continue to work

18     with Mr. Beara?

19        A.   Yes.  When the family moved to Belgrade, I continued my security

20     service, providing security for the officers of the Command of the Naval

21     District; and Uncle Ljubisa, as I called him, understood me very well,

22     and I was accepted very well at the Command, where I continued performing

23     my duties.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Ostojic.  Can you go into private

25     session briefly.

Page 25622

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Sir, now let's take the period from June 1991 or so up through

16     the period at the end of 1992.  Were you, during that entire time, in

17     Split?

18        A.   Yes.  The only leave I had was towards the end of 1990.  I was in

19     Srebrenica and Bratunac.  I spent five or seven days or maybe ten at

20     home, and then I returned to the Military Command of the Naval District

21     to perform my duties there.

22        Q.   Dates and all this is important for all of us.  I thought I said

23     it, and I may have misspoken, I said, I thought, that from September up

24     through the end of January 1992, but you help me with that.  Just tell us

25     how long you and the men in the unit that you worked with at the Yugoslav

Page 25623

 1     Army, how long you were in Split, and then we'll take the period after

 2     you left Split, Croatia.  But clarify for me, when is it that everyone

 3     left, because you mentioned you were the last to leave, I believe.

 4        A.   Yes.  The Command of the Naval District is in the center of town.

 5     It came under blockade, which lasted for three months.  I was there

 6     performing my security detail for all the high-ranking officers that were

 7     involved in negotiations.  One of them was also Mr. Ljubisa Beara.

 8        Q.   Thank you for that.  But am I correct that you left Split,

 9     Croatia, at the end of January 1992?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And although you were the last person to evacuate, the balance of

12     your unit left either prior to or at that time, the end of January 1992;

13     correct?

14        A.   Absolutely.  I was the last soldier to get on the ship that took

15     me to the [indiscernible] IKM, and from there we went to Kembrey [phoen]

16     in Montenegro.

17        Q.   And that's what I want to go to, to turn to that phase.

18             When you arrived to Montenegro, and I think it's Kumbor or Kumbar

19     in Herceg Novi, can you tell us for what period of time you and your

20     unit, with Mr. Beara, were stationed in Montenegro?

21        A.   In 1992, the entire Naval District was dislocated from Split to

22     Montenegro, and I remained working there, providing security for the

23     higher-ranking officers.  And as for my contacts with Uncle Ljubisa, we

24     all had contact with him until the unfortunate incident that happened at

25     Debeli Brijeg.  After that, Uncle Ljubisa was suspended.  As far as I

Page 25624

 1     know, he was then detained, as far as I know, and my contacts with him

 2     stopped after that.

 3        Q.   Sir, sometimes I found, at least, that the translations from one

 4     language to another are, for lack of a better term, awkward.  When you

 5     say "Cika Ljubisa," and then it's translated to "Uncle," let me ask you

 6     this:  Do you have any blood relationships with Mr. Ljubisa Beara?

 7        A.   No, none whatsoever.  It may be absurd, but I perceived the man

 8     as my father, so my relationship with him, and not only mine but the

 9     relationship of my unit, and Mr. Beara, as a superior, was a fatherly

10     relationship, and I'm not exaggerating.  My -- next to my family, he was

11     the person closest to me, the highest authority who was fair to me,

12     exactly as my father was to me when I was growing up.

13        Q.   Sir, are you related in any way to Nada Beara?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   How about with Dragan Beara, Mr. Beara's eldest son?

16        A.   I never met him, to be honest.  I know that he is his son, but I

17     never saw him.  I don't know him.  I don't even know what he looks like.

18        Q.   And there is an age difference between the two boys.  How about

19     Branko Beara; do you have any blood relationship with Branko Beara?

20        A.   No.  I have only heard that he's now a very tall man, but I only

21     knew him as a child.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let me just go back to your tenure in Montenegro from

23     January 1992 through approximately June 1992, and I'd like to know,

24     generally again, whether the hierarchy of your unit and the military that

25     was transferred out of Split, Croatia, whether it stayed the same.  In

Page 25625

 1     essence, my question to you, if you would be kind enough to describe the

 2     composition of your unit while you were in Montenegro for that period of

 3     January 1992 through June of 1992.

 4        A.   The composition of that unit was multiethnic.  There were

 5     Slovenians, Croats, Muslims.  We arrived in Montenegro under the slogan

 6     "Fraternity and Unity," and we were not prepared for the atmosphere in

 7     Montenegro.  The people are different there, the way of thinking is

 8     different, so we might have been a little bit ridiculous in their eyes.

 9     We were not accepted for what we were because we had lived with the

10     ideals of the original Yugoslav People's Army and the oath we had taken.

11             That was the movie that we were living in, and we believed in

12     that, because our command, the Command Staff, was also ethnically mixed.

13     There were Muslim commanders as well.  There was no intolerance amongst

14     us.  We lived as one body, but we did not fit in the new system that was

15     emerging in Montenegro at the time.  We had a different language,

16     different dialects, the words that we used, and all this just did not fit

17     in that new environment.  The composition remained the same.

18             In my unit, nobody left the unit.  There was [indiscernible],

19     Hasan Ferhatovic, Nermin Jusic.  Absolutely all of us remained loyal to

20     the unit and stayed with it.

21        Q.   Were you able to make any observations with respect to Mr. Beara,

22     if he shared the same views as you've just described?

23        A.   Absolutely.  He was a high-ranking officer who was leading us,

24     and he had the same problem as I did because he used the Dalmatian

25     dialect when he spoke, and I was faced with situations when he was

Page 25626

 1     brought to rather awkward positions.  Because of his language, he did not

 2     fit with the new Montenegrin regime, those new cowboys who came to the

 3     fore down there.  They wanted to wage war, and they wanted to create

 4     their own laws, the way they saw fit.

 5        Q.   Sir, tell us, if you will, where your family was during this

 6     period in 1992, January through June, approximately, 1992.

 7        A.   As I have already told you -- actually, I told you where my

 8     father ended up.  Since we're in open session, I don't want to go into

 9     any detail.  And my mother, brother and sister remained living in

10     Bratunac.

11        Q.   And to the best of your recollection, when did they stop living

12     in Bratunac?

13        A.   When I took them out of Bratunac.  It was at that moment when

14     they stopped residing there.

15        Q.   Okay.  And we'll get to that in a moment, but do you remember the

16     month?

17        A.   I believe it was in the month of May.

18        Q.   And, sir, we'll come back to this in a little bit, but let's go

19     to the next month, June of 1992, as a parameter that you previously

20     mentioned in your testimony.  What, if anything, occurred in June of

21     1992?

22        A.   In June 1992, Chetniks were killed in Debeli Brijeg.  I believe

23     that there were two paramilitaries, members of the White Eagle unit under

24     the supervision of Mr. Seselj.  They had created problems in town.  They

25     had ill-treated people.  They had stolen a car.  They were stopped at the

Page 25627

 1     Debeli Brijeg, they were killed.  I believe they were burned.  And as

 2     from that moment on, that incident, for me and for my unit, was very

 3     important.  It was a turning point, and it was one of the reasons why we

 4     were disbanded after that.  They killed our ideology and everything

 5     disappeared after that.

 6        Q.   And just so I'm clear, because earlier you testified you stayed

 7     in the military until 1994, did you continue to be in the military once

 8     this event occurred, but you were an inactive serviceman?

 9        A.   After that incident, those who were not Serbs or Montenegrins

10     were placed at the so-called disposal, which means that you were sent to

11     another unit either in Pristina or somewhere in Serbia or in Tivat.  And

12     then when you turned up where you were referred to, they would tell us,

13     "We don't know who you are, we don't have any papers for you.  You should

14     go back to your original unit," and actually they played games with you.

15     They treated you like a ping-pong ball.  But since you had been trained,

16     they can't -- they couldn't kill you.

17             So basically, we were powerless.  We know what to do.  We

18     received very modest salary, as they called it, but it was nothing in

19     practical terms.  We were left to die as plants.  We did not belong after

20     that, that there was another possibility either to change your name or to

21     turn coats, if I may put it that way, and become a part of all that.  But

22     I don't think whether that would have worked either.  So that was the

23     least painful system to get rid of us.  They wanted to wear us out so

24     that they could force us to go to third countries of our own will, to

25     disappear from the face of the earth or at least from before their eyes.

Page 25628

 1        Q.   Sir, I want to focus a little more, if we may, on the Seselj's

 2     paramilitary men who I think you've identified were called "Chetniks,"

 3     and that they had ultimately been killed.

 4             Do you know if Ljubisa Beara suffered any repercussions as a

 5     result of that incident?

 6        A.   Of course, of course he did.  We all suffered, but he suffered

 7     the most because the order that had been issued was his, and because of

 8     that order, he was suspended, detained, as far as I know.  And in the

 9     eyes of those people down there, first of all, he spoke in a wrong

10     dialect.

11             Second of all, he wanted to remain -- maintain the multiethnic

12     composition.  That was his second mistake.  His third mistake was that he

13     was not ethnically biased, and the biggest crime that he could do -- the

14     biggest sin of his was to have killed these two people.  As a commander,

15     he was removed from the position.  I don't know what happened next, but

16     of course that he was not regarded well as a result of that incident.

17        Q.   When is the last time you had any personal, physical contact with

18     Mr. Beara after this incident in June of 1992?

19        A.   I personally did not ever have contact with him after that.  In

20     1995 - I'm not sure about that - I was informed from Mrs. Nada, maybe

21     through my wife, that he was alive and well.  That's all I got, the

22     information that he was alive and well, nothing more.

23        Q.   Let me back up, if I may.  Now, did you stay after your military

24     was -- your unit and the unit we were discussing in Herceg Novi, when it

25     was disbanded, did you continue to live and stay in Montenegro?

Page 25629

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Just remind me until when.

 3        A.   After that event, I was available from the relation of Herceg

 4     Novi Kumbor, Divat.  I was transferred to the Sabotage Unit, but I was

 5     returned to the military police from that unit; so I was waiting for some

 6     sort of leave.  So practically from 1994, June 1994, I was allegedly, if

 7     I can call it like that, in the service of the Yugoslav Army, and then I

 8     was discharged and I left Yugoslavia in June 1995, because I had nothing

 9     to live on anymore.  So I left for Germany with my family, I transferred

10     to Germany.

11        Q.   What I'm interested to know, sir -- and let me just correct

12     something in the record.  It said "allegedly the Yugoslav Army," but you

13     had quotation marks on that word, I think, because I saw you raise your

14     arms and just put quotation marks around the word.  Am I right about that

15     or ...

16        A.   Absolutely, absolutely.

17        Q.   Let me ask you this question:  Why didn't you, after your unit

18     and the military was disbanded where Mr. Beara was in, in Herceg Novi, in

19     June of 1992, following the Seselj incident, why didn't you go back to

20     Bratunac?

21        A.   I don't know, Mr. Ostojic, if you are understanding me.  I was

22     brought up and --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I note the problem with LiveNote.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm not sure if the Court heard, but the gentleman

25     said there seems to be a problem --

Page 25630

 1                           [Technical difficulties]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let us try.  It seems to be reworking again.

 3             Okay, Mr. Ostojic, please continue.

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:

 5        Q.   Sir, and forgive me that I'm asking so many details.  Maybe I'll

 6     approach it this way:  Do you remember, if at all, what was happening in

 7     Bratunac in May and June of 1992?

 8        A.   Yes.  At the time, I'm talking specifically according to what I

 9     know, what I know, because at the time I talked on the phone with my

10     parents so I knew specifically what was going on; I know that those local

11     nationalists took over power in Bratunac, that they specifically already

12     started to organise, to call themselves -- I don't even know what they

13     called themselves, that some special camouflage, irregular forces came

14     somewhere from the interior of Serbia, and I know that these, and I can

15     call them neighbours, people who until the day before had nothing to do

16     with the army, who specifically took over power, they had nationalist

17     leanings, they grouped, and specifically at that time because I pulled my

18     parents out, I will -- I am not sure whether this was on the 6th or 8th

19     of May already, at that time I personally saw how people were taken out,

20     just like my mother, brother and sister were taken from their house, they

21     were taken to the playground.  Men were separated to one side, women to

22     the other, and they were expelled.

23             After that, I read and I saw that most of them were taken to the

24     Vuk Karadzic School, my school, as it happens, where men were killed --

25     the men were killed.  So the same thing that happened in 1995, perhaps on

Page 25631

 1     a smaller scale, but it was the same perpetrators, the same programme,

 2     the same system of work.

 3        Q.   Sir, how is it that you were able to go to Bratunac in May of

 4     1992 in order to evacuate your family?

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll just go into private session, if I may, and I

 8     apologise to the witness.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 25632

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:

 3        Q.   Sir, and thank you.  I'm just trying to have an understanding of:

 4     Who gave you permission or who allowed you from your -- given that you

 5     were in the military at that time, to proceed to leave the military in

 6     order to conduct this evacuation of your family?

 7        A.   First of all, I apologise.  I would like to be very precise, and

 8     for that reason I tried to mention all the specific details, but it's not

 9     a problem.  Mr. -- Uncle Ljubisa sent a lieutenant to inform me that I

10     would need to come to see him at his office, and then when I got there,

11     he told me, more or less, that things were happening in Bratunac that the

12     army was not able to control, and that these local -- or these town

13     authorities have started to do stupid things.  And then he knew, of

14     course, where I was from.  He told me to take a military vehicle, to take

15     an officer or non-commissioned officer who was a Serb, for my own

16     personal safety, because he couldn't believe there was no command, there

17     was nobody I could talk to, because I should take a Serb with me because

18     I was a Muslim, after all, going to that part of town, to that part of

19     Bosnia, and that I should specifically pull out my family, all the people

20     from my family that I would be able to pull out.  That was the least that

21     he was able to do, Uncle Ljubisa, specifically for me.  He couldn't save

22     the whole of Bratunac, but he could specifically save me and my family,

23     and anybody else that I was able to find, that I would manage to find.

24        Q.   During the time period that you were working with and became

25     familiar with Mr. Beara, and I know you mentioned that he's at times like

Page 25633

 1     a father, and you referred to him, as it's translated, as "Uncle

 2     Ljubisa," can you describe for us whether you had an opportunity to

 3     observe his character?

 4        A.   Well, it's absurd for me.  I came here for reasons of speaking

 5     the truth, but specifically from those ethnically - or

 6     nationalist-leaning sides, I will be considered again - I mean, probably

 7     somebody will not like this.

 8             Uncle Ljubisa is Uncle Ljubisa.  For me and for the people from

 9     my unit, he was like a father.  I specifically saw him, and in that

10     period of three months, when I was in a blockade in Croatia, 24 hours I

11     spent with him, so I knew exactly -- that's where I lost my first

12     soldier.  I was young.  I was prepared to do anything.  I was not afraid

13     of anything in the world, so I know who at that time calmed me down, I

14     know who at that time offered me security and gave me proper advice, and

15     I know that at that time, in spite of that, for me treachery was a

16     horrible thing, and for that time -- at that time, he specifically

17     counselled me that anyone -- Croatian officers would be able to leave the

18     command, he wouldn't be able to stop them.  I was specifically -- for

19     safety, I was authorised for the command.  And for me, it was difficult.

20     I couldn't believe, after the killing of this young soldier of mine,

21     there were no rules.  I was angry.  The world, for me, was destroyed.

22             So at that time, in those moments -- in those moments, I -- in

23     Herceg Novi, when paramilitary idiots, for 40 or 50 years old, made fun

24     of him because of the way he talked, they didn't even know who he was,

25     but I knew how calm he was, and what a professional he was; so I can say

Page 25634

 1     all the best.  And if somebody likes that or not, as far as I'm

 2     concerned, he's "Uncle Ljubisa," to me, and he was what he was to me

 3     then.  And I'm saying, again, not only for me, but for the whole unit who

 4     was there under his wing until June 1992.

 5        Q.   During that time period, sir, that you knew him, were you able to

 6     observe whether Mr. Beara had any nationalistic ideals?

 7        A.   Well, it's like this, Mr. Ostojic:  For me, myself personally, my

 8     family is all, it's untouchable.  My children and my wife, they mean

 9     everything to me.  And had this gentleman had any kind of nationalistic

10     ideas or leanings, or had he been brought up that way, I would not have

11     been able to look after Mrs. Nada and little Branko.  This is how I look

12     at it.

13             Perhaps everything I'm saying now is an illusion in which I

14     lived, but I never once, absolutely, heard an ugly word from him or from

15     his wife, and I know how they brought up their child.  I don't know -- I

16     even got a little present, a kind of anchor, from Mrs. Nada as a token of

17     gratitude.  I mean, my conscience makes me say this.  All of this that

18     I'm saying is just the way it is.  I don't know -- I'm talking about the

19     period when I knew him, and as for what happened later, well, I don't

20     know.

21        Q.   And that's clear, and that's the period we're discussing.  I want

22     to ask you another question, given that you observed Mr. Beara with the

23     military unit when you were both in Split and in Kumbor.  Did you observe

24     whether or not Mr. Beara treated -- because it was a multiethnic

25     composition of the unit that you were involved in, and Mr. Beara, did you

Page 25635

 1     notice whether he treated everyone fairly or discriminately?  In other

 2     words, sir, did he favour one ethnic group over another?

 3        A.   I don't know.  Perhaps -- well, please don't misunderstand me,

 4     but it's all a little bit ridiculous to me.  I am putting myself and the

 5     post that I had at the time, and this case of those Chetniks that were

 6     killed, I mean, I can't believe that someone -- well, I mean, you're

 7     asking me this question.  Had he been that, he wouldn't have done that,

 8     he wouldn't have ordered that, so he was purely professionally deciding

 9     on his duties and there was no discrimination at all, no kind of insults

10     based on ethnicity or anything like that.

11        Q.   Sir, what I'm going to do is move a little along in our

12     discussion, and I've informed the Court and my learned friends that you

13     and I met yesterday.  I want to play a tape, and please be careful, when

14     I play this tape, not to identify anyone until I specifically ask you,

15     and if and when we go into private session, with the Court's permission.

16             So can we please have 65 ter number 2D580, which is a surrogate

17     sheet from a video at the Hotel Fontana, second part, and it's V000-4458.

18             Just for the time being, we'll play the tape, and I'll just ask

19     that it stops when I feel it's appropriate.

20                           [Videotape played]

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  Stop the tape, please.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I'm going to ask you this question:  Generally,

23     do you recognise any of the individuals that you saw in that short video

24     that we've played for you?  Do not identify who you recognise.  Just tell

25     me if you recognise any of those individuals or not.

Page 25636

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  If we may please go into private session for the

 3     next couple of questions.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25637

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's in the e-court.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  It is.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Page 31 of --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Page 31 of P1936.  Yes.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:

24        Q.   Now, sir, you're looking at the screen in front of you of an

25     exhibit that we have of a group of people there.  And do not tell us who

Page 25638

 1     the person is, but do you recognise any of those individuals in that

 2     photograph that you see on the screen?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   How many people do you recognise in that photograph?

 5        A.   One on this photograph.

 6        Q.   Some of the persons on this photograph have a box with a number

 7     written on them.  Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Then if we can just go into private session again,

10     please.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Proceed, Mr. Ostojic.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Sir, we're back in open

25     session.  I'd like to ask you another questions in connection with these

Page 25639

 1     still shots relevant to this -- seems to be a meeting that was held at

 2     the Hotel Fontana in July 1995.

 3        Q.   When was the first time that you saw the book that we've

 4     identified here as 65 ter number 1936, which is P1936, I guess now, which

 5     I'm holding here in front of you?

 6        A.   I saw it last night for the first time.

 7        Q.   And in looking at this still book, were you able to identify

 8     other people that were in attendance at this meeting in the Hotel Fontana

 9     in July of 1995?

10        A.   Yes, I was.

11        Q.   With the exception of the individual that we've already

12     identified and you explained to us in private session on two occasions,

13     and I can give you the book, but I thought I'd turn to the page that I

14     recall you showed me; do you recognise any men in the photo still book

15     that you've seen?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   Do you remember, as you sit here, who you pointed out to me?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Share it with us.

20        A.   I saw Mr. Dedonjic [as interpreted], late Mr. Dedonjic.  I saw my

21     former professor, Ljubisa -- what's his name?  He was my Serbo-Croatian

22     professor.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:

25        Q.   Was it Simic?

Page 25640

 1        A.   Simic, yes, Ljubisa Simic.

 2        Q.   The record just -- and I think we all heard it, I think he said

 3     "Deronjic," and I think they just have a slight misspelling on that, but

 4     we can correct that later.

 5             Sir, what I want to ask you next, in connection with the

 6     testimony that you're going to hopefully provide for us, back to

 7     Mr. Beara's character, if you will:  Did Mr. Beara, at any time while

 8     you've known him, exhibit any hatred towards any ethnic group?

 9        A.   No, not that I -- absolutely not.  He grew up in the communist

10     period, just like we all did, and he was simply a professional, and

11     that's how he viewed things.  He didn't differentiate people according to

12     their ethnicity, absolutely not.

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  I have one area to cover, Mr. President, and

14     I think it's necessary to do so in private session.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25641











11 Pages 25641-25645 redacted. Private session.















Page 25646

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

Page 25647

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That's all the questions

 2     I have for this witness at this time.

 3             Thank you, sir.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Would there be any cross-examination from any Defence team?  I

 6     see none.

 7             Mr. Mitchell.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  Your Honour, it's a little early, but would it be

 9     possible to take the break now?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell, how long do you think your cross would

13     last?

14             MR. MITCHELL:  Less than half an hour, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  So there's one matter the Chamber needs to discuss.

16             We'll take a break for half an hour.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             After careful consideration, I have no questions for the witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Mr. Witness.  On

25     behalf of the Tribunal, I thank you for your coming to the Tribunal to

Page 25648

 1     give evidence.

 2             You're free to go.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic, we have in our list the pseudonym sheet

 6     for the witness, and do you have anything else to tender?

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  I do not, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there will be no objection from either

 9     party.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  They are admitted.  Yes, of course.

12             And your case has been concluded, except for the one who will be

13     coming sometime next week?

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  Not really, because we had previously filed with

15     the Court that we had joint witnesses with the Miletic Defence, and we

16     would still reserve that right, if possible.  And I spoke with my learned

17     friends from the Office of the Prosecution regarding the Dutch-Bat

18     individual that I think the Court is referring to, and they've informed

19     me that they're getting some security clearance.  So they've been in

20     contact with this person.  But according to my learned friend Mr. Thayer,

21     he says he's busy the rest of the week and will not be able to look at

22     some material that will be released in connection with their Ministry of

23     Defence.

24             It was my understanding that I was going to meet with the witness

25     Friday, but according to Mr. Thayer, he will be gone, but I will verify

Page 25649

 1     that.  So I will let the Court know, as soon as possible, his

 2     availability.

 3             And just so the Court knows, because the witness prefers to

 4     testify in Dutch, although he speaks English, I personally think

 5     fairly -- very well, it's going to take us perhaps seven to ten days to

 6     obtain Dutch translators.  So it may be a little beyond that time so we

 7     could coordinate with the staff to do so.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  But it's evident that there is no

 9     witness for the remainder of this week?

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  That is correct.  With those exceptions, we've

11     concluded presentation of Defence evidence.

12             We have filed motions with the Court in connection with

13     submissions, and we're still contemplating filing one more specifically

14     relating to the driver, to have his interview that the Prosecution had

15     with him, but we can address that in writing to the Court in due time.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Madam Nikolic, we read the reply you referred to

17     with care, but we have come to the conclusion the situation is not such

18     that requires us to reconsider our ruling.  We note the concerns you

19     express in your filing, but given that he's to come to the Tribunal to

20     give evidence in any event and that extra 20 minutes will not give him an

21     extra burden, so -- and particularly considering that we can give him any

22     break during the course of his testimony, if necessary, so we are not

23     granting the 92 ter motion; i.e., we require him to give his testimony in

24     live.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 25650

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Is there any matters for the parties to raise?  Then

 2     we'll adjourn -- oh, yes, Mr. Gosnell.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, there is one matter having to do

 4     with timing and the potential start date for our case.

 5             I understand that there is an outstanding motion for a rather

 6     lengthy adjournment.  I don't know what the Chamber's views are on that,

 7     but of course if there is any significant gap that's expected between the

 8     Nikolic case and our case, we would have to know about that soon in order

 9     to communicate with VWSS in order to ensure that we have our witnesses

10     flowing smoothly.

11             Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think we'll be in the position to give a concrete

13     answer as soon as Judge Agius joins us next week, and apart from that, I

14     would recommend you to communicate with the Nikolic Defence team in terms

15     of how long their case will last.

16             That's it.  We'll adjourn to -- one moment.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE KWON:  I thank you the Registrar.

19             Mr. McCloskey, I asked probably yesterday whether you can

20     expeditiously respond to the videolink motion filed by the Nikolic

21     Defence team, whether you can answer -- give your position now.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We spoke to Ms. Nikolic about that, and

23     Mr. Thayer is looking at it right now.  He's got that other motion that

24     you asked about, and so I think that's on his plate.  And I think there's

25     doctors' reports and things that always cause us a little concern, but we

Page 25651

 1     will get back to you probably today on that.  Those are not hard to sort

 2     out, once we figure out what's being said.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I ask this to you because the Registry would need

 4     some time to prepare for that, if granted.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely, absolutely.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And you can respond to the other motion,

 8     confidential motion relating to subpoena, by the end of this week or ...

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Then we can safely adjourn until Monday morning,

11     9.00.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.02 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of

14                           September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.