Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25910

 1                           Thursday, 18 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon, Madam Registrar.  Could you call

 7     the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, ma'am.  All the accused are here.

11     Absent from the Defence teams I notice Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Lazarevic,

12     Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Krgovic, and Mr. Haynes.

13             Prosecution it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer who are present.

14     Witness is already in the courtroom.  So I suppose we can proceed.  Good

15     afternoon, to you, Mr. Nikolic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic.

18             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           WITNESS:  MILISAV NIKOLIC [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Ms. Nikolic:  [Continued]

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

23     Mr. Nikolic.  Yesterday during your testimony we dealt with the

24     relationship between the brothers.  However, I have one question left in

25     that area.  Were you mobilised between 1992 and 1996 to the VRS?

Page 25911

 1        A.   No.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please speak into the microphone

 3     to her right.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic, you need to either come nearer the

 5     microphone or use another microphone, the interpreters are not hearing

 6     you well.

 7             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I will

 8     endeavour to do so.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is it better, I'm asking the interpreters?

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.

11             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I apologise to the

12     interpreters.

13        Q.   In 1992 when the war broke out in Bosnia, what happened with

14     Drago Nikolic's family?

15        A.   Drago was in Sarajevo with his family.  At the moment when the

16     war broke out, he was in a barracks.  He had already been mobilised.  His

17     wife was in the military hospital.  He managed to transfer his children

18     to Pale.

19        Q.   Do you recall what was happening with the daughters of your

20     brother in April 1992 after he had transferred them to Pale?

21        A.   I do.  Drago called me on the 6th of April, 1992, in the morning,

22     to tell me that he transferred them to Pale, and that I should pick them

23     up to take them to my house.  I asked a neighbour of mine to accompany me

24     to Pale.

25             In the meantime, Drago called our elder brother Dragan that the

Page 25912

 1     children were to be picked up in Pale.  Dragan did so and brought them to

 2     Kravica where he handed them over to me.  Then I took them to my place in

 3     Novi Sad.

 4        Q.   How old were they at the time?

 5        A.   Dragana was 13 and Vida 11.

 6        Q.   Dragana and Vida, did they spend a period of time in Novi Sad

 7     with you and your family?

 8        A.   They stayed until the end of July that year.  After having been

 9     brought from Pale, I enrolled them in a school in their respective grades

10     which they completed in Novi Sad.

11        Q.   And that was in 1992?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   While Drago's children were with you, how did Dragana and Vida

14     take that situation being separated from the parents?

15        A.   With difficulty.  The younger girl, Vida, was crying a lot and

16     whenever she would get back home from school, the first question she'd

17     ask me was, Uncle, did daddy call?  They suffered a lot and were very

18     worried about their parents.

19        Q.   What about you and your wife, did you do your utmost in the

20     circumstances that prevailed?

21        A.   We did everything trying to compensate for the fact that they

22     missed their parents.  We did not make a difference between them and our

23     children.  We even included them on school trips with the other children

24     from the school so that they would feel a part of that community.

25        Q.   Between April and June 1992, when did Drago and his wife come to

Page 25913

 1     see the children, and did you know of their fate during those couple of

 2     months?

 3        A.   We didn't hear anything about Drago until mid-June, for over two

 4     months, when he appeared in Novi Sad.  His wife had arrived before that,

 5     around mid-May.  As I said, Drago followed in mid-June.

 6        Q.   Having left Sarajevo, do you know where your brother

 7     Drago Nikolic was sent to?

 8        A.   Once he had left Sarajevo and spent a few days with me, he went

 9     back to Sekovici, that's where his next post was.

10        Q.   Do you know when it was that he was transferred to the

11     Zvornik Brigade?

12        A.   Yes.  In January 1993.

13        Q.   Concerning their family circumstances, I wanted to ask you what

14     was the relationship like between Drago and your wife, Ruza?

15        A.   Their relationship was a fair one.  They respected each other.

16     Drago held my wife in high esteem, and in the difficult -- the most

17     difficult times, he entrusted her with his children.  He particularly

18     respected her for her good treatment of his children.

19        Q.   Before he began his military studies, what was he like as a young

20     man?

21        A.   He was of a merry spirit, well liked in his circle of friends and

22     in the neighbourhood.

23        Q.   Did he change once he had completed his military studies?

24        A.   Yes, he grew more serious, an introvert.  It wasn't like it used

25     to be before he went to the military school.

Page 25914

 1        Q.   Do you know what caused that change?

 2        A.   He often said that it was very difficult for him to be separated

 3     from the family during the four years being in the boarding school.  He

 4     seldom visited home, only during national holidays.  Their summer

 5     vacation was far shorter than that of civilian students.

 6        Q.   I would like to change topics now.  In the course of the war

 7     between 1992 and 1995, did you go to Bosnia?

 8        A.   On average, I went there once a month.  Since my three brothers

 9     were there as well as my parents, I went there frequently.

10        Q.   In July 1995, were you in Bosnia?

11        A.   In July 1995 I did go, in early July, to visit my brothers and

12     parents, and there was something that I had to do there.  I returned on

13     the 9th of July since by that time the fighting around Srebrenica had

14     started and I had my wife and children with me.  Dragan also suggested

15     that I should return and we went back to Novi Sad.

16        Q.   Did you see Drago Nikolic before going home that weekend?

17        A.   Yes.  While we were on our way back, we dropped by his barracks.

18        Q.   When you were going to the barracks to see your own brother, what

19     was the procedure like for you to be admitted inside the barracks where

20     the Zvornik Brigade was quartered?

21        A.   At the reception desk there were military policeman, they asked

22     for my ID, and then -- well, sometimes one of them would take us up to

23     Drago's office or alternatively they would call him and then he would

24     come down to see us.

25        Q.   Since you were informed that the fighting had begun, once you

Page 25915

 1     returned to Novi Sad, were you interested in finding out what was

 2     happening with your brothers and with your brother in the

 3     Zvornik Brigade?

 4        A.   Yes.  I frequently called, inquiring about Drago and even more

 5     about Boro, because a few days later, I think it was the 14th of July,

 6     from Boro's wife's father I learned that Boro was at Odrc that day,

 7     searching the terrain there.

 8        Q.   Do you recall an event that would be important for your family

 9     that may have taken place in July 1995?

10        A.   I do.  It was when our cousin Dusan Nikolic, on our uncle's side,

11     was killed.

12        Q.   How did you learn of Dusan Nikolic being killed?

13        A.   I called Drago's office to ask him if he knew where Boro was.

14     Since he didn't respond, I called his house thinking that maybe he was at

15     home for lunch.  He picked up the phone there and told me that he didn't

16     know where Boro was, but that he would let me know once he is back in the

17     barracks.

18        Q.   Did he?

19        A.   He called in the afternoon.  He was quite upset and said that

20     Dusko had been killed.  I asked him if he knew where Boro was, and he

21     said he didn't.

22        Q.   Can you recall what date that was?

23        A.   Certainly.  The 16th of July, the day when Dusko Nikolic was

24     killed.

25        Q.   Did you at some point go to Zvornik in July 1995 after having

Page 25916

 1     learned this?

 2        A.   When Drago told me about that, in the next half hour with a

 3     neighbour of mine, I set off towards Zvornik since I had no vehicle of

 4     mine.  Once in Zvornik, I located my brother Borislav at the bridge in

 5     Karakaj.  After that we went together to his home.  Later on we went to

 6     Dusko's sister's apartment.  Her name is Mara Milosevic.  The family

 7     assembled there.  We wanted to express our condolences.  I found Drago

 8     there.  There were many other family members there.  They were making

 9     arrangements for the funeral that was to take place the next day.  Drago

10     took over the organisation of the event.

11        Q.   Did you attend Dusan Nikolic's funeral?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   When was this funeral, if you recall?

14        A.   Well, the cortege headed out of Zvornik around noon and I think

15     the funeral itself may have taken place at around 3 p.m.

16        Q.   Now I would like to ask you this:  You've described the close

17     relations that you had with Drago and the other brothers.  Did Drago tell

18     you about his service in the army, his job in Sarajevo and later on in

19     Zvornik and Sekovici?

20        A.   Well, I tried to broach this subject several times with him, in

21     particular when I was younger, but he always refused to discuss it.  He

22     would always tell me that there was no reason for me to know anything

23     because this was all military secret.

24        Q.   Did you know any of Drago's colleagues, officers that he worked

25     or socialized with in Sarajevo while he served in Sarajevo?  What were

Page 25917

 1     his relations with those people?

 2        A.   Well, I knew quite a few people in Sarajevo because I went there

 3     to visit him quite often.  I know some of them by name, Lizdek, Matic,

 4     Milidrag.  I knew quite a few of them by sight and, as far as I was able

 5     to observe, Drago was on good terms with all of them.  They socialised,

 6     some of them would even come to our family home in Kravica.  And when his

 7     child died all of them came to the funeral, regardless of their religion.

 8     All of those colleagues that I knew and those colleagues that I didn't

 9     know.

10        Q.   Could you please repeat the name, you said Matic and then

11     Milidrag but it was wrongly recorded in the transcript?

12        A.   Yes, Matic, Marinko, and Milidrag.  Milidrag is the name.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if Drago was on good terms with his

14     colleagues in Zvornik while he worked there?

15        A.   Well, I didn't know as a many of his colleagues from Zvornik.  I

16     knew them mostly from his stories.  When I came to visit him I would see

17     some of them in passing, but from what I heard from him and from what I

18     heard from our brother Boro, he was on relatively good terms with all of

19     them.

20        Q.   Did he have any problems with any of those colleagues?

21        A.   Well, after he retired, he did mention at one point, he recounted

22     that Obrenovic had contacted him -- I don't know what his rank was at the

23     time -- insisting to see him.  And when they did meet, he told Drago that

24     he would drag Drago and the others into the pits.  I don't know who the

25     others were.

Page 25918

 1        Q.   Did Drago tell you why?

 2        A.   Well, just the bare bones.  He said that this man suspected Drago

 3     and others, other colleagues of having conspired against him.  He didn't

 4     tell me any specifics, but at any rate, he suspected Drago of conspiring

 5     against him together with some other colleagues and that's why he

 6     threatened to do this.

 7        Q.   When was the first time that you heard that your brother had been

 8     indicted before the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague?

 9        A.   In the fall of 2002.

10        Q.   Where did Drago and his family live at that time?

11        A.   In their home in Banja Koviljaca, in their house.

12        Q.   Did you contact him at that time after the indictment was issued

13     and were there any changes in his lifestyle?

14        A.   Well, yes, I contacted -- I was in contact with Drago, I went to

15     visit him and he would come to Novi Sad often to work.  I found him

16     different jobs then he would go back.  So he continued his life as usual.

17        Q.   Do you know whether Drago's closest family had any problems after

18     the indictment was issued?

19        A.   I know that his wife and his daughter, his younger daughter were

20     called -- were summoned to come to the police station in Zvornik.

21        Q.   Were you ever summoned to come to the police station or did

22     anyone come to ask questions about Drago or questioned you and your

23     family?

24        A.   No.  Nobody ever contacted me or asked me any questions.  I

25     continued to visit my parents quite frequently.  I travelled to Bosnia,

Page 25919

 1     and when my ID was checked at the border, nobody asked me any questions.

 2             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have to go back to an error in

 3     the transcript, that's page 8 line 21.  My colleague has just pointed

 4     this out to me.  At the very end of line 21 instead of the witness

 5     actually said he told Drago, not me.  But I can explain that by asking

 6     some additional questions if you want me to.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I think it's clear enough.  I don't think

 8     you need to, Ms. Nikolic.

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Did you ever discuss this indictment and the events with your

11     brother, the events related to the indictment?

12        A.   Well, we discussed it quite often in fact.  He found it hard to

13     bear.  He would tell me that the things that are written in the

14     indictment are not true.

15        Q.   So from October 2002 until March 2005, did you ever talk to Drago

16     about his surrender to the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague

17     after this indictment was issued in 2002?

18        A.   Well, I did talk to him about that a couple of times.

19        Q.   What did he tell you?

20        A.   Well, there was this campaign throughout the country in the

21     media, on TV, in the press, that people should not surrender and he

22     always used to say that officers higher in rank than he was had not

23     surrendered yet.  And he was also concerned about his family; his wife is

24     quite ill.  And at that time his children didn't hold steady jobs, so he

25     was not ready to surrender yet.

Page 25920

 1        Q.   What was your advice to him?

 2        A.   Well, I said that he had to make this decision himself, but

 3     whatever he decided, I would be there -- I would support him, I would be

 4     at his side.

 5        Q.   Did Drago decide to surrender to the ICTY at one point?  What do

 6     you know about that?

 7        A.   He called me in March 2005, early March, and he told me that he

 8     had to discuss something with me.  He came to my place on the 12th of

 9     March and he said that he had decided to surrender, that he could no

10     longer bear the pressure on his family.  And he also saw that others were

11     beginning to surrender.  He wanted me to get in touch with somebody in

12     the Serbian government to effect his surrender.

13        Q.   Did you help him?

14        A.   Yes.  On the 12th, I got in touch with some people in the

15     government and we agreed that we should come on the 14th, that they would

16     see us on the 14th.  I, my wife and Drago went to Belgrade.  We parked

17     our car close to the Serbian government building.  We went -- I went to

18     the gate and some people came out and Drago accompanied them into the

19     government building to negotiate his surrender.

20             After a while they left, they came out and they said that they

21     had agreed that he would leave for The Hague on the 17th.

22        Q.   On the 17th of March?

23        A.   Yes, on the 17th of March.

24        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, you described your family, the relationship between

25     the brothers and in general the family relations.  Could you tell us

Page 25921

 1     throughout these years, did Drago ever show any signs of ethnic or

 2     religious intolerance towards any family members or friends?

 3        A.   Drago never evinced any ethnic or religious intolerance.  He was

 4     a Yugoslav, that was his orientation.  He got on well with all people of

 5     all religions and ethnic backgrounds and his relationship with my wife is

 6     a good example of that.  She is Catholic and also Drago's relationship

 7     with her parents.  He often went to see them when he came to visit me.

 8     He would call them and to wish them happy for their feasts, religious

 9     feasts on so on and to this day he always asks me about how my wife is

10     and how her parents are.

11        Q.   In the end, Mr. Nikolic, I would like to ask you to answer just

12     one more question.  How would you describe your brother Drago's character

13     and his relations with people in the community where the two of you grew

14     up together?

15        A.   Well, my brother Drago was always a hard working man.  He was

16     well liked in his family but also in our broader community.  He always

17     wanted to assist everyone and he did, and people had a great deal of

18     respect for that.  And they showed their respect in particular now when

19     the Trial Chamber allowed my brother to come to my father's wake, a

20     40-day wake.  Lots of neighbours, lots of friends, family came in order

21     to express their condolences to the family, but primarily to Drago

22     because of his father's death and to pay their respects to him.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.

24     Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.  Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 25922

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I have no question for the witness, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

 3             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, no questions.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  No questions, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU:  [No interpretation]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, merci.  Mr. Josse.

 9             MR. JOSSE:  Certainly not, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa.

11             MR. SARAPA:  No questions, thank you.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to you and

14     Your Honours.  Good afternoon, everyone.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   My name is Nelson Thayer.  I'll be asking you some questions on

19     behalf of the Prosecution.

20             Now, you mentioned yesterday sir, and again today, that you were

21     not mobilised into the VRS during the war.  Can you tell the

22     Trial Chamber how you performed your military service during the war,

23     please?

24        A.   I did not perform any military service.  I went to Bosnia as a

25     civilian.  I'm a citizen of Serbia and that's where I lived, I only went

Page 25923

 1     there to visit.

 2        Q.   And during the war, did you serve in the military of the

 3     Former Republic of Yugoslavia at the time, the FRY?

 4        A.   At the time I did not serve in the military in the FRY either.

 5        Q.   And did you have some work obligation or other reason why you did

 6     not serve in the military during that period of time?

 7        A.   Well, I worked in Novi Sad where I live, it's a normal job.  It

 8     was not work obligation.  I was paid for it.  And I did my military

 9     service in 1983 and 1984.

10        Q.   And your eldest brother Dragan, how did he perform his military

11     service during the war, sir?

12        A.   My brother Dragan was mobilised at the beginning of the war.

13        Q.   And in what unit did he serve?

14        A.   Dragan was mobilised into the reserve force of the police, that

15     was before the war.  And when the war started, he was in a unit in

16     Kravica where he remained until March 1993 when he lost his leg, and then

17     he was demobilised.

18        Q.   Now, if I've done my math right, sir, your brother Dragan is the

19     eldest, followed by your brother Drago, followed by yourself, and then

20     followed by your late brother Borislav who was the youngest; is that

21     correct?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   And I think you mentioned yesterday that Borislav had a degree in

24     mining.  Did he attend the military academy?

25        A.   No.

Page 25924

 1        Q.   Did he have any police or law enforcement training, sir?

 2        A.   Well, my brother Borislav did his national service in 1984 and

 3     into 1985, and I don't recall what branch of service he was in.  I know

 4     that he was in Nis, but I really don't know what branch he was in.

 5        Q.   Is it fair to say, sir, that to your knowledge he didn't have,

 6     prior to the outbreak of the war in Bosnia, any specific police or law

 7     enforcement training?

 8        A.   I don't know what training he underwent in the military, but I

 9     don't think that he underwent any other kind of training outside of the

10     military.

11        Q.   Did your brother Drago ever help your youngest brother Borislav

12     at all or use any connections he may have had to help Borislav become a

13     member of the Zvornik Brigade Military Police Company as opposed to

14     remaining a foot soldier or conscript on the frontlines?

15        A.   Well, I don't know if it helped or not, but I do know that I had

16     quarrels with Drago several times because I criticized him for not

17     preventing Borislav going to various frontlines where the fighting was

18     quite fierce.  I do know that.

19        Q.   Well, are you aware of any times when or occasions when your

20     brother Drago tried or succeeded in intervening on Borislav's behalf to

21     keep him out of harm's way?

22        A.   Well, in my previous answer I said that Drago went to the

23     frontlines where there was fighting, and that I criticized Drago for

24     that.

25        Q.   My question, sir, was:  Did your brother Drago ever attempt to

Page 25925

 1     intervene, did he ever try or succeed in intervening on Borislav's behalf

 2     to keep him out of harm's way during the war?

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic?

 4             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is asked and

 5     answered twice.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I don't think it has been answered.

 7     He simply said that they had disagreements and I'm asking a specific

 8     question, did he try and did he ever succeed.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed with your answer.  Let's proceed with

10     your answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.  He never helped him in

12     any way or at least I don't know about that.

13             MR. THAYER:

14        Q.   Now, sir, you are certainly aware that in July 1995 hundreds and

15     hundreds of Muslim men and boys from Srebrenica were detained at the

16     Grbavci School in Orahovac and then executed nearby; right?

17        A.   I don't know anything about that.

18        Q.   Is it your testimony, sir, that you've never heard that that

19     occurred?

20        A.   No, that's not what I'm saying.  There were all kinds of reports

21     in the media, on TV, in the press.  I'm just saying that I personally

22     have no knowledge of that.

23        Q.   Now, sir, we have information that, and this is from members of

24     the Zvornik Brigade Military Police Company, that your brothers Drago and

25     Borislav were both at that school in Orahovac on that day that the

Page 25926

 1     executions occurred?

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  Do you speak English?  Do you

 3     understand English, Mr. Nikolic?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Not even a little bit?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not even a little bit.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Can you remove your headphones, please.

 8             Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, [In English] Sorry, I

10     can address you only in English.  I will try to do my best, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

12             MS. NIKOLIC:  I think, Your Honour, that this witness very

13     clearly said that he was not mobilised, that he was not the citizen of

14     Bosnia Herzegovina, that he was not in the war in Bosnia, that he is not

15     living in Bosnia, and that he know nothing about the events.  Everything

16     what he heard, he heard from media.  [Interpretation] I think this

17     question is inappropriate [In English] Sorry, because I think that the

18     question is completely inappropriate because that witness is --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right, I got your point -- we got your point.

20     Mr. Thayer, do you wish to respond?

21             MR. THAYER:  Ever so briefly, Mr. President.  We've heard from

22     this witness that he discussed the indictment with Mr. Nikolic, that he

23     was in touch with Mr. Nikolic following the attack on the Srebrenica

24     enclave, that he has very specific recollection of certain dates in

25     mid-July 1995.  And I think I'm perfectly entitled to explore these

Page 25927

 1     issues and specific issues surrounding what happened in Orahovac to test

 2     this witness's memory and his credibility.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic, and that's the end of it.  In

 4     English, please.

 5             MS. NIKOLIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Orahovac was never mentioned in

 6     my direct examination.  An indictment meaning like the counts or text or

 7     charges were never part of my direct examination.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we come to the conclusion that your objection

11     cannot be sustained, Ms. Nikolic, because not having been part of the war

12     himself or part of the forces, VRS, not having firsthand information of

13     what happened in Orahovac until he came to know through the media perhaps

14     has got nothing to do with other information, the other information that

15     is being solicited or he is being asked upon now by Mr. Thayer.

16             So, Mr. Nikolic.  You had started your question, you did not

17     conclude it, in my opinion.  I may be wrong.  Go to page 16, lines 20 to

18     23, Mr. Thayer, please.

19             MR. THAYER:  We are getting there, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

21             MR. THAYER:  I'll just pick up right from there, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

23             MR. THAYER:

24        Q.   Sir, we have information from two military policemen from the

25     Zvornik Brigade Military Police Company, Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic,

Page 25928

 1     that on the day that the executions at Orahovac occurred, your brother

 2     Drago's driver arrived at the school after the prisoners had all been

 3     placed inside the gym, summoned your youngest brother Borislav to the car

 4     and drove him away.  Mr. Bogdanovic was very specific about that

 5     recollection and Mr. Jovic said the following about that.  He said that:

 6     "This was a sufficient signal that even before anything had happened, we

 7     should allow ourselves, even if that included taking some risks, because

 8     of potential later responsibility, that we should just run away from the

 9     spot."  And they did indeed flee according to their statements to us.

10             Now, you testified that as brothers you helped each other out,

11     growing up, throughout your entire lives.  Did either of your brothers

12     Drago or Borislav tell you about Drago sending his driver to the Orahovac

13     school to take Borislav out of that place?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Did your brother Drago ever tell you he was there at the school

16     on the 13th or 14th of July?

17        A.   Sir, I have already stated that neither in peacetime nor in

18     wartime he ever shared any such things with me.  He never talked about

19     that to me and I have no answer to your question.

20        Q.   Well, I understand that on occasions when you asked him about

21     what his duties were and what his activities were, he replied that it was

22     a military secret, sir.  But I'm talking about what I don't think can be

23     denied was a very, very widely reported massacre.  And you've told us

24     that you discussed the indictment with your brother Drago, and that he

25     said that the things that were included in it weren't true.  So I'm going

Page 25929

 1     to ask you some questions about some of these events, sir, and see

 2     whether you talked about some of these specific things.

 3             Did he ever tell you that he was angry about what happened at

 4     Orahovac, sir?

 5        A.   I have never read the indictment.  I have never discussed the

 6     details of the indictment with him.  He has never mentioned any of those

 7     details.

 8        Q.   Did you ever hear the story about a little Muslim boy who was

 9     wounded during the mass execution at Orahovac and take to the Zvornik

10     hospital?  Surely your brother would have told you how outraged he was

11     about that, sir?

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Avoid putting questions this way, Mr. Thayer,

13     please.  The first part of your question would have sufficed.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were different stories in the

15     media, in the press, on TV.  I don't remember that particular story about

16     that boy.  In any case, I did not hear about it from Drago.  For years

17     people have been writing about such things.  I may have read something of

18     the sort along the way, but I don't know about that.

19             MR. THAYER:

20        Q.   Sir, will you allow that the Drago Nikolic who you know when he

21     is with your family and behaved in a certain way when he was with your

22     family may have behaved differently while he was performing his duties in

23     the army during the war?

24        A.   I'm not very clear about the thrust of your question.  I know my

25     brother is a fair, honest person --

Page 25930

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can move to the next question.  He

 2     wasn't with him when he was at work both before, during and after the

 3     war.  I mean, so ...

 4             MR. THAYER:

 5        Q.   My last question for you, sir, is at any time before, during or,

 6     well, certainly after the war, did your brother express to you any

 7     sorrow, any sympathy, any remorse for the thousands and thousands of men

 8     and boys from Srebrenica who were executed in his area of responsibility?

 9        A.   As I have said, we have never discussed such matters.  I can't

10     tell you whether he demonstrated anything of the sort when we didn't

11     discuss it.

12             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic, do you have re-examination?

14             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic, your testimony ends here.  You will

16     receive assistance from our staff to facilitate your return back home.

17     On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over

18     to give evidence and on behalf of everyone, I wish you a safe journey

19     back home.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic, exhibits?  You used a couple in the

22     beginning.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I think the list

24     was distributed and it has two documents on it, the two we mentioned.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection, Mr. Thayer?

Page 25931

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  None, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it the other Defence teams are not

 3     interested so the two documents are admitted.  You don't have any

 4     document, Mr. Thayer, do you?

 5             MR. THAYER:  None, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Let's move to the next witness.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, madam.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm the Presiding Judge.  I wish to welcome you.  I

11     know this is not a nice occasion for you, but the Defence team of your

12     father has summoned you to give evidence and accordingly before you start

13     your testimony you are required to make a solemn declaration to the

14     effect that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the

15     whole truth.  Madam Usher who is standing next to you is going to give

16     you the text.  Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn

17     commitment with us.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  VIDA VASIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, ma'am.  Make yourself comfortable,

23     please.

24             Ms. Nikolic.

25             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 25932

 1                           Examination by Ms. Nikolic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Vasic.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   Before we introduce ourselves, I would kindly ask you that you

 5     speak up so that the interpreters will be able to hear when you speak,

 6     and to pause between questions and answers so that there will be no

 7     overlaps and to have a clear transcript.

 8        A.   Very well.

 9        Q.   I wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Ms. Nikolic, and I

10     appear on behalf of your father, Drago Nikolic.

11             Can you tell us your first and last name and your maiden name.

12        A.   My name is Vida Vasic.  Maiden name Nikolic.

13        Q.   When and where were you born?

14        A.   I was born on the 3rd of October, 1980, in Sarajevo.

15        Q.   You are Drago Nikolic's daughter, aren't you?

16        A.   Yes, Drago Nikolic is my father.

17        Q.   What is your current occupation?

18        A.   I am a salesperson.

19        Q.   What is your educational background, what degrees do you hold?

20        A.   I have a junior college diploma as -- what we call it is an

21     economics technician in the field of economic affairs.

22        Q.   Do you remember having given a statement on the 23rd of April,

23     2008, to Mr. Drago Nikolic's Defence team?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Did you have occasion to revisit your statement in the few days

Page 25933

 1     prior to your testimony here?

 2        A.   Yes, I reread it.

 3             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to Rule 92

 4     ter I would like to read out this witness's statement, summary statement.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please go ahead.

 6             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] The witness lives in Mali Zvornik,

 7     Serbia.  Drago Nikolic is her father.  She has one sister Dragana and

 8     they also had a younger brother Dragisa, who died in 1990 as a result of

 9     serious illness when he was eight years old.

10             The witness remembers that after the war broke out in Sarajevo in

11     April 1992, Drago Nikolic took her and her sister to Pale where they

12     spent three days.  Afterwards, the brother of Drago Nikolic arrived and

13     took them to Novi Sad to their uncle Milisav Nikolic.  Drago and

14     Milena Nikolic remained in Sarajevo.

15             The witness and her sister stayed in Novi Sad for two to three

16     months where they completed that school year.  Mother Milena joined them

17     a month later.  After that, they saw Drago Nikolic again in June 1992.

18             In the summer of 1992, they moved to Sekovici and then to Zvornik

19     where they stayed until the end of the war.  In July 1995 they lived in

20     Zvornik.  The witness remembers the 16th of July, 1995, when their uncle

21     Dusan Nikolic was killed.  The witness remembers that day since besides

22     her uncle being killed, her mother Milena's birthday is on that day too.

23     At the time of family birthdays and get-togethers, they always tried to

24     be together as a family.

25             The witness remembers that on that day Drago Nikolic came home to

Page 25934

 1     attend a family lunch since it was his [as interpreted] mother's

 2     birthday.  The witness does not remember the exact time but, according to

 3     the best of her recollection, she thinks that Drago stayed in the house

 4     until mid-afternoon.

 5             On the 16th of July, 1995, they were informed at home that

 6     Dusan Nikolic was killed.  The whole family was shaken since

 7     Drago Nikolic and Dusan were very close.  The witness remembers that it

 8     was in the afternoon when Mara Milosevic, Dusan Nikolic's sister, called

 9     and asked to speak to Drago Nikolic.  Mara called because she wanted to

10     know about Dusan, however, Drago Nikolic had already left the house.  The

11     witness had already known that Dusan Nikolic had been killed by that time

12     but neither she nor her mother wanted to tell that to Mara.

13             The witness remembers that her father played a significant role

14     during the funeral and that he left the next day after Dusan had been

15     killed.

16             This concludes my reading of the summary according to Rule 92

17     ter, and I have a few questions for you.

18             JUDGE PROST:  Ms. Nikolic, if I just interrupt you for a moment.

19     If you look at the transcript at page 24, line 22, it says:  "To attend a

20     family lunch since it was his mother's birthday," that's different from

21     what is in the same where she indicates it was her mother's birthday.  So

22     I think that needs to be clarified.  Thank you.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I will

24     repeat my question for the sake of the transcript.  It was indeed her

25     mother.

Page 25935

 1        Q.   Was that your mother's birthday?

 2        A.   Yes, my mother's birthday.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  The summary of statement I read out, does it reflect

 4     truly and accurately the statement you gave to our Defence team?

 5        A.   Yes, it does.

 6        Q.   Are the facts you mentioned in your statement true and accurate?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do they truly reflect the facts that you would repeat before this

 9     Tribunal if asked the same questions today?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this point, Your Honour, I seek

12     to tender Vida Vasic's statement.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.  We'll come to that later.

14     I would take it there's no objection?  So you can assume that it is

15     admitted.

16             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  It is

17     3D474.  I have only a few questions for Mrs. Vasic, but since there are

18     only a couple of minutes left before the break, this may be a good time

19     to take that break.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Ms. Nikolic, we'll have a 25-minute break.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

24             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Mrs. Vasic, you spent about two months in the house of your uncle

Page 25936

 1     and aunt.  Do you remember when your parents joined you in Novi Sad in

 2     1992?

 3        A.   Yes, I do remember.  My mother, Milena, joined us first and then

 4     a month later -- that was about a month after we left, and my father

 5     joined us about two months later.

 6        Q.   Did you have any news from your parents in the intervening

 7     period?

 8        A.   No, I didn't have any news of my parents.  They remained in

 9     Sarajevo.

10        Q.   And how did you bear those days when you were separated from your

11     family?

12        A.   Well, this was a difficult period for me since my sister and I

13     were very close and devoted to our parents.  I went to school and

14     although the school recognised our previous grades, I would always come

15     home from school every day and I would ask my Uncle Milisav if there had

16     been any news and if my parents had left Sarajevo.

17        Q.   Mrs. Vasic, how would you describe the relations in your family

18     and Drago Nikolic as your father?

19        A.   I am very proud of the fact that Drago Nikolic is my father.  I'm

20     very proud of all the love and all the support that he has given me.  He

21     has been a wonderful father.  He never raised his voice in our house,

22     neither at me or at my sister.  We've always been able to deal with

23     everything by talking about it.  We spent a lot of time talking to each

24     other.  All his free time he devoted to us.  He took care of us.  He took

25     care of our education.

Page 25937

 1             Although me and my sister Dragana were A students, whenever there

 2     was any need to help us with our school work, he would always be there

 3     for us.  He always helped us.  He attended all parent/teacher

 4     conferences.  He really took our education to heart, and he spent all his

 5     free time with us.  He took us out for walks.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic.

 7             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Yes, of

 8     course.

 9        Q.   Mrs. Vasic, if you find this difficult, we can stop now.

10             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any questions for this

11     witness.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  I take it I don't need to

13     make the roll call, I would imagine no one is interested except maybe

14     Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And Mrs. Vasic, I

16     don't have any questions for you.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, and neither have we, I suppose, which

18     means, Mrs. Vasic, that your testimony comes to an end here.  On behalf

19     of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having been kind enough to

20     come over and give testimony in this case.  And on behalf of everyone

21     present here, I wish you a safe journey back home.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it there are no exhibits?

25             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.

Page 25938

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Except for the statement, of course, which I

 2     already said is --

 3             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, but it's already been

 4     admitted, if I understand it correctly.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Exactly.  All right.  Your next witness is

 6     Milosevic, isn't it?  Dragan Milosevic?

 7             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is also a 92 ter witness, isn't he?

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon, to you, Mr. Milosevic.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  And welcome to this Tribunal.  You are about to

14     start giving evidence as a Defence witness for Drago Nikolic.  Before you

15     do so, you are required by our rules to make a solemn declaration that in

16     the course of your testimony you will be speaking the truth.  Text is

17     being handed to you now, please read it out aloud and that will be your

18     solemn undertaking with us.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  So, Ms. Nikolic.

22                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN MILOSEVIC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25                           Examination by Ms. Nikolic:

Page 25939

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Milosevic.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   We've met before?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   But could you please state your full name for the record.

 6        A.   My name is Dragan Milosevic.

 7        Q.   When were you born and where?

 8        A.   I was born on the 10th of December, 1951, in the village of

 9     Jalovik, Vladimirci municipality in Serbia.

10        Q.   What degrees do you hold and what is your current occupation?

11        A.   I completed the secondary teachers school in Sabac and I

12     currently in the elementary school in Zvornik as a teacher.

13        Q.   During the war in Bosnia between 1992 and 1995, were you

14     mobilised into the units of the Republika Srpska Army, when and for how

15     long if you recall?

16        A.   Well, I do recall.  I was mobilised several times.  The overall

17     duration was about five months.  I was mobilised right at the beginning,

18     on the 20th of May, and that was until the 3rd of August, 1992.  And then

19     I was again mobilised twice in 1995, from the 27th of March until the

20     29th of April, and then again from the 15th of July until the end of

21     August, the 30th of August, 1995.

22        Q.   Just for the record, one question, what is your current

23     occupation, could you explain that?

24        A.   I teach in the elementary school Sveti Sava in Zvornik.

25        Q.   When were you demobilised?

Page 25940

 1        A.   I was demobilised on the 30th of August, 1995.

 2        Q.   Do you remember that you gave a statement to Drago Nikolic's

 3     Defence team on the 23rd of April, 2008?

 4        A.   Yes, I do remember.  I did give a statement.

 5        Q.   Did you have an occasion to read your statement before you signed

 6     it and again, in the couple of days before you took the stand?

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I did have an opportunity to read it and I

 8     signed it.

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] In accordance with the Rule 92 ter,

10     I will now, Your Honours, read a brief summary of this statement.

11             The witness lives in Zvornik and he is a teacher at the

12     elementary school in Zvornik.  The witness's wife is Mara Milosevic who

13     is the sister of the late Dusan Nikolic and a cousin of Drago Nikolic.

14     During the war, the witness had the work obligation as school teacher in

15     the elementary school Sveti Sava in Zvornik.

16             He was mobilised to the reserve battalion of the Zvornik Brigade

17     and he remembers that he spent the night between the 15th and the 16th of

18     July, 1995, in the Standard barracks.  On the 16th of July, 1995, early

19     in the afternoon, the witness was at the cemetery in Zvornik as a member

20     of the honour guard firing blanks for a soldier who had been killed, and

21     then there he learned from Drago Gajic that his relative Dusan Nikolic

22     had been killed.

23             The witness remembers that between 3 and 4 p.m. he went to the

24     command in Standard where he found Drago Nikolic who was deeply upset.

25     Dusan and Drago were inseparable from their childhood until Dusan's

Page 25941

 1     death.  The witness went, together with Drago Nikolic and Mico Petkovic,

 2     to tell his wife Mara about this tragic event.  On the 16th of July,

 3     1995, starting from the afternoon all the way until the 17th of July,

 4     1995, late in the evening, Drago Nikolic was with them at all times and

 5     he handled the complete funeral organisation of the late Dusan Nikolic

 6     who was buried in the Kravica cemetery on the 17th of July, 1995.

 7        Q.   This concludes my 92 ter summary of your statement.  Now, I would

 8     like to ask you whether what I have just read reflects the statement that

 9     you gave to the Defence team?

10        A.   Yes, in full.

11        Q.   The facts contained in the statement, are they true and accurate?

12        A.   They are completely true.

13        Q.   And do they reflect accurately your -- what you would say in

14     front of this Trial Chamber if you were asked to testify about those

15     events?

16        A.   Yes, fully.

17             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this time I would like that the

18     witness statement provided this witness, 3D475, be admitted into

19     evidence.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection?  No objection from anyone.  It is

21     admitted, Ms. Nikolic.  Please proceed.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Mr. Milosevic, now I would like to ask you just a couple of

24     questions.  How long have you known Drago Nikolic?

25        A.   Well, from the time when I came to my job in Kravica, that's in

Page 25942

 1     1973 [Realtime transcript read in error "1993"] in the Petar Kocic

 2     elementary school, I lived in the immediate vicinity of Drago Nikolic's

 3     family house, so I've known him since 1973 when he was my student.

 4        Q.   And when did you get to know him better?

 5        A.   Well, I got to know Drago better in 1977 when I married his

 6     relative Mara Nikolic, and we socialised to a greater extent from 1993

 7     when he came to Zvornik.

 8        Q.   I would just like to correct for the record that page 32, line

 9     18, could you please repeat the year, the first time that you heard about

10     Drago Nikolic when you got the job in Kravica?

11        A.   It was 1973.

12        Q.   Not 1993, then?

13        A.   No, 1973.

14        Q.   Since you've known Drago Nikolic and his family for over 30 years

15     based on your answers, could you please describe to us what kind of a

16     person Drago Nikolic was as a man?  What would you say about his family

17     and his character?

18        A.   Well, I've known Drago Nikolic since his early youth, since he

19     was 16.  I could tell you a lot of things about him, but as a member of

20     his wider family, I can tell you that he was a respected -- well

21     respected.  Even when he was young, when he was a student, his family

22     respected him and he was always ready to assist anyone in any situation,

23     anyone in his closer or broader family.

24             There was a tragedy in his family and it affected him deeply, he

25     lost his son.  And after that, his hair went completely white.  It was

Page 25943

 1     really a striking thing that happened for all of us.  I was there with

 2     them.  And in 1993, since that time, he socialised -- socialised with us

 3     with our family because the late Dusan lived with us in our apartment.

 4             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Milosevic.  Thank

 5     you, Your Honours.  I don't have any further questions for this witness.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any one of the Defence teams interested in

 7     cross-examining this witness.  None.  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  A few, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

11        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  My name is Peter McCloskey, I represent the

12     Prosecution in this case.

13             Can you tell me where you were living in July 1995?

14        A.   In July 1995 I lived in Zvornik, in Brace Jugovica Street B7,

15     apartment number 15, and that's where I reside nowadays as well.

16        Q.   Did you have family living in the Kravica area in July 1995?

17        A.   In July 1995, in Kravica, my wife's brothers lived there as well

18     as her uncles.  That's it.

19        Q.   All right.  Let me just clarify a little something in your

20     statement.  You say you were in that honour guard on the 16th of July at

21     the cemetery in Zvornik for a soldier Rajko Smiljanic -- sorry about the

22     pronunciation.  So were you able to confirm those dates for this

23     statement?

24        A.   Yes, I remember that vividly.  I was mobilised late in the

25     afternoon on the 15th.  There was a storm in Zvornik.  After that, I was

Page 25944

 1     a member of the battalion in charge of the honourary guard at the Karakaj

 2     cemetery, because at that time there were supposed to be two funerals.  I

 3     remember well Rajko Smiljanic since he was a manager's son.  I knew the

 4     manager, having worked in the place where he used to work, and I remember

 5     that situation well.

 6        Q.   So you are sure that the ceremony was on the 16th of July?

 7        A.   I'm completely certain of it.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And your statement says that immediately after that,

 9     meaning I think the ceremony, between 3 and 4 p.m. you say:  "I went to

10     the command in Standard and there I found Drago Nikolic."  And so when

11     you say that in your report, you mean immediately after the ceremony at

12     the cemetery, you went to the Standard barracks; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And why did you go to the barracks at Standard?

15        A.   After the blanks were fired for Rajko Smiljanic, we talked to his

16     father, waiting for the other funeral procession.  I don't remember whose

17     funeral it was exactly.  In the meantime, a soldier arrived who was with

18     the Zvornik command and told me the tragic news of Dusan Nikolic being

19     killed.  I was also allowed to leave and told that someone else would

20     take over.  I was told to report at Standard, so that the news of Dusan's

21     tragic death could be conveyed to the rest of the family.

22        Q.   So do I understand you were allowed to go to Standard in order to

23     tell Drago Nikolic about the tragic news?

24        A.   No.  I was told to go to Standard and at Standard I came across

25     Drago Nikolic who by that time had already known about the situation, and

Page 25945

 1     together with him and Milos Petkovic, aka Mica, I went to Zvornik to tell

 2     the news to my wife, his sister and his wife Dusica.

 3        Q.   Do you know how long Drago Nikolic had known of the news about

 4     this tragedy before you had actually seen him?

 5        A.   I didn't know then and I don't know now at what point he learned

 6     of that.  I only knew that there were conflicts at Baljkovica and there

 7     were some people killed at the moment I left for the cemetery.  As for

 8     Drago, I have no idea when he learned of the news.

 9        Q.   And about what time did you see Drago at the Standard barracks?

10        A.   It is difficult to know what time it was exactly, but I think

11     between 3 and 4 in the afternoon, give or take half an hour.  It's very

12     difficult to pinpoint it exactly 13 years later, but it was sometime in

13     the afternoon, maybe after 4 o'clock.

14        Q.   And what part of the Standard barracks did you see him in?

15        A.   At the entrance.  Well, how should I explain it?  As I was

16     leaving the cemetery, since it is relatively close, when I arrived there,

17     Mica Petkovic and Drago were already there, and we left together.  So

18     just close to the reception office at the gate.

19        Q.   Outside the building or inside the building?

20        A.   Outside the building.

21        Q.   And do you remember if Drago Nikolic was in uniform?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   He was in uniform?

24        A.   Yes, he was.

25        Q.   And where did Drago Nikolic live at that time?

Page 25946

 1        A.   I think at the time he lived in Zvornik.  I don't know what the

 2     address was.  I think it is an apartment block called Z14 or 15.  That's

 3     the numbers that the buildings bear.  In any case, it is in Zvornik.

 4        Q.   Just to give us an idea, normal traffic driving from the Standard

 5     barracks to the apartment block, how long would it take?  Just roughly.

 6        A.   Do you mean on foot or by car?

 7        Q.   Well, let's start with car.

 8        A.   Up to five minutes, not more.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, I think that will be close enough.  And do you know,

10     was there a telephone in Drago Nikolic's house at that time?

11        A.   I think there was.

12        Q.   And did Drago Nikolic have a Motorola with him some of the times

13     when you would see him?

14        A.   I didn't notice that.  I don't remember whether he had it.

15        Q.   Okay.  And it's the next day, the 17th, that you went to the

16     funeral in Kravica; right?

17        A.   Yes.  On the 15th in the evening, the family got together in my

18     apartment because Dusan was living with us for awhile and then later he

19     was given an apartment in Zvornik.  In the afternoon, Dusan was taken

20     from the morgue to his new apartment which was just above the pharmacy.

21     The funeral took place in the afternoon on the 16th in Kravica.  I know

22     that the procession left the apartment around noon in the direction of

23     Kravica and we couldn't go via Konjevic Polje.  We had to take another

24     route via Zelinje, Polonje [phoen] towards Bratunac and then on to

25     Kravica, which was the late birth place of the late Dusan.

Page 25947

 1        Q.   Let me see if I can help you clarify some of the dates.

 2     Sometimes we have translation errors, sometimes you may have mixed up the

 3     dates.  I'll let you sort that out.

 4        A.   I apologise.  The 16th in the evening is what I was talking

 5     about.  I was mobilised on the 15th.  On the 16th, I stood the honour

 6     guard and learned of Dusan's death.  On the 16th, the family got

 7     together, and the 17th is when the funeral was in Kravica.  Thank you for

 8     having corrected me.  I did mix up the dates.

 9        Q.   About what time did you leave from Zvornik to go to the funeral

10     on the 17th?

11        A.   The procession set out from Zvornik, as far as I can remember,

12     around noon.  Was it quarter to 12 or 12 exactly, in any case around that

13     time it set out, following the route I described, via Drinjaca, Zeljine,

14     Polom to Bratunac, and then to the village cemetery in

15     Bacacica [phoen] -- outside Kravica where the late Dusan Nikolic was

16     buried.

17        Q.   That route you said you took, was that more of a gravel type road

18     closer to the Drina to get to Bratunac to avoid that main road through

19     Konjevic Polje?

20        A.   Yes, exactly.  That road was a dirt road from Zeljine to

21     Bratunac.  It was a gravel road and indeed we did not go by

22     Konjevic Polje.

23        Q.   What time roughly did you, yourself, come back from the funeral

24     in Kravica?

25        A.   Since I was a member of the R Battalion, I returned late in the

Page 25948

 1     evening to Zvornik.  The next day I reported to my unit.  I came back to

 2     Zvornik on 17th in the evening.  My wife and some of the family remained

 3     with their brothers in Bratunac since one of the brothers of the late

 4     Dusan at the time ran a bar in Bratunac where the religious ceremony took

 5     place after Dusan had been buried.

 6        Q.   So what time did the funeral end in Kravica on the 17th?  And the

 7     ceremonies related to it?

 8        A.   Well, since the religious ceremony was in the church in Bratunac,

 9     the procession went in the direction of Kravica to Dusan's native

10     village.  I think it was in late afternoon.  A lot of time has passed.  I

11     can't tell you exactly what time it was.  In any case, quite some time

12     elapsed.  We took the gravel road from Zvornik -- well, perhaps I could

13     give you an estimate but nothing exactly.

14        Q.   Well, did you get back to Zvornik before dark the day of the

15     funeral ceremony?

16        A.   No.  As I said, I returned to Zvornik late in the evening so that

17     I would be able to report back to the unit the next day.

18        Q.   So when you were on duty in the R Battalion, who was your brigade

19     commander?

20        A.   The brigade commander, Mr. Vinko Pandurevic.

21        Q.   Now, you may have heard that a lot of Muslim men, some with guns,

22     like hundreds and hundreds of them were coming out from the Srebrenica

23     enclave and clashed in Baljkovica with the Zvornik Brigade.  Do you

24     remember was there any bad feelings among the soldiers, like yourself,

25     towards their commanders that allowed that Muslim column to come running

Page 25949

 1     up through the Zvornik area?

 2        A.   I didn't notice any of that in my unit.  In my unit there were no

 3     such things.

 4        Q.   Did you hear about any members in your unit having to go to the

 5     cultural centre in Pilica and load hundreds of dead Muslim men in the

 6     back of their truck, hauling them up to the Branjevo farm and dropping

 7     them there to be buried?

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this

10     significantly goes beyond the scope of examination-in-chief.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, but the rule allows for that contingency as

12     well.  So go ahead, please answer the question.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   And, sir, I can help you think about that, that this happened on

15     the 17th of July, 1995, and you would have heard about it, if you would

16     have, when you got back from the funeral?

17        A.   I state with full responsibility that I'm telling you the truth.

18     The members of my R Battalion, into which I was mobilised on the 15th,

19     had nothing to do with Pilica.  I claim that in full responsibility.

20     That part of the unit, when I was attending the honour guard on the 16th,

21     was assigned to a road towards Tuzla, that is where they were.  No person

22     from that unit was engaged at the location you are referring to.

23        Q.   Another unit of the R Battalion that did you hear was involved?

24        A.   I learned of the massacre later on.  I didn't know anything about

25     who the executioners were then, nor do I know now who the people were

Page 25950

 1     there that did that and whether they were members of the battalion.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  Is there re-examination,

 4     Ms. Nikolic?

 5             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  We don't have questions from the Bench either.  So

 7     Mr. Milosevic, that means that your testimony finishes here.  On behalf

 8     of the Trial Chamber, I would like to thank you very much for having come

 9     over to give evidence in this trial and on behalf of everyone, I wish you

10     a safe journey back home.  Our staff will give you all the assistance you

11     require.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic, apart from the statement, the 92

15     ter statement, I suppose there's no document?

16             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Precisely.  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  No documents were made use of by the Prosecution.

18     So we can move -- proceed with the next witness.  My understanding,

19     Ms. Nikolic, is the following, because yesterday of course when you

20     decided, or the day before, when you decided to withdraw (redacted)

21     (redacted) or whatever his name is, I start to think wanting to see

22     whether we were in a position to fill in the time until --

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  And the registry informed me that you very

25     diligently managed to provide for another two witnesses to cover the time

Page 25951

 1     we would have otherwise had.  Is that correct or not?  And I take it that

 2     the next witness would be Mara Milosevic?

 3             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We have two

 4     witnesses left for this week, Mara Milosevic and Dusica Sikimic.  This

 5     would exhaust the number of ten witnesses we called in for this week.  I

 6     apologise if we'll be forced to have some time left in this week but

 7     having in mind the event with the gentleman whose name I don't want to

 8     mention, we did our utmost but we are unable to bring any more witnesses

 9     this week.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  The Trial Chamber certainly cannot criticize you

11     when it comes to diligence.  So Mara Milosevic, please.  In fact, we can

12     only commend you for your organised way in which you have been conducting

13     your case.

14             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mrs. Milosevic, good afternoon to you.  You are

17     most welcome at this Tribunal.  You've been summoned as a witness by the

18     Defence team of Drago Nikolic.  Before you start your testimony our rules

19     require that you make a solemn declaration that in the course of your

20     evidence you will be speaking the truth.  The text is going to be handed

21     to you now, please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn

22     commitment with us.  You have to read it out aloud, madam, so that we

23     hear you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 25952

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I thank you so much, ma'am.  Please make

 2     yourself comfortable, sit down.  And Ms. Nikolic will be asking you some

 3     questions.  She will then be followed presumably by Mr. McCloskey for the

 4     Prosecution.

 5             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           WITNESS:  MARA MILOSEVIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Ms. Nikolic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Milosevic.  Do you feel

10     well?

11        A.   Good afternoon.  I feel all right.

12        Q.   We've met already but I would kindly ask you to state your first

13     and last name for the transcript.

14        A.   My name is Mara Milosevic.  I was born in 1950 in Kravica,

15     Bratunac municipality.

16        Q.   What is your current occupation, Mrs. Milosevic?

17        A.   I'm retired.

18        Q.   Are you related to Drago Nikolic?

19        A.   Yes, we are closely related.

20        Q.   Do you recall that you gave a statement to Drago Nikolic's

21     Defence team on the 23rd of April, 2008?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to read this statement at the time

24     when you signed it and also before your testimony when you were being

25     proofed?

Page 25953

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] In accordance with the 92 ter, I

 3     will now read a brief summary of your statement, Mrs. Milosevic.

 4             The witness lives in Zvornik.  The late Dusan Milosevic is her

 5     brother and the Drago Nikolic is her cousin.  The witness remembers the

 6     events of the 16th and the 17th of July when her brother Dusan Nikolic

 7     was killed.  He was a military policeman in the Zvornik Brigade.  The

 8     witness remembers that on the 16th of July, 1995, there were rumours in

 9     Zvornik about heavy fighting in Baljkovica and that many soldiers were

10     killed.  Dusica, the wife of Dusan Nikolic, and the witness were having

11     coffee together when Dusica said that military police had also sustained

12     losses in Baljkovica.

13             The witness remembers that she called Drago Nikolic at his home

14     and that his wife, Milena, answered the phone and said that Drago had

15     just left and to call him at the command.  The witness remembers that she

16     did not call Drago immediately.  She felt afraid and together with

17     Slobodanka Gajic she headed towards the Zvornik hospital in the early

18     afternoon.

19             The witness did not want to enter the hospital and remained there

20     at the crossroads and Slobodanka went to ask around what was going on.

21     When Slobodanka came back, she told the witness to call Drago Nikolic to

22     find out what was going on.  The witness found this odd, why Slobodanka

23     insisted that she should call Drago Nikolic and she remembers that

24     Slobodanka later explained to her that some people who were in front of

25     the hospital had told her that they had seen Drago Nikolic in hospital

Page 25954

 1     and that he was sobbing because a close relative of his had been killed.

 2             After she returned from the hospital, the witness made a call to

 3     the Zvornik Brigade command and asked Drago Nikolic to tell her about her

 4     brother Dusan.  Drago told her that he didn't know what was going on and

 5     that he would call her back shortly.  After awhile, Drago Nikolic did not

 6     call the witness but he suddenly showed up in her apartment with her

 7     husband Dragan Milosevic and some other people and that is when they told

 8     her that Dusan had been killed.

 9             There was a nurse with them and she gave first aid to the

10     witness.  From that moment on, Drago Nikolic was with his family all the

11     time.  He organised the funeral and the transportation of Dusan's body to

12     Dusica's and Dusan's flat on the 17th of July, 1995, in the morning.

13     Dusan's funeral was held in Kravica on the 17th of July, 1995, in the

14     afternoon.  The procession with the body with the late Dusan left Zvornik

15     around noon and they took the detours because it was dangerous to go

16     through Konjevic Polje.

17             The witness remembers that Drago Nikolic was with them during all

18     that time, even after Dusan's funeral, and that he helped them a lot,

19     organising everything that was necessary.  The witness claims that

20     Dusan's death was a great shock for Drago Nikolic since they had been

21     inseparable from their early childhood.  The late Dusan and Drago Nikolic

22     were born in the same year, 1957, they went to school together and they

23     spent time together, they socialised both in Sarajevo and in Zvornik.

24     This completes my 92 ter summary.

25        Q.   Mrs. Milosevic, does this summary that I just read to you reflect

Page 25955

 1     the statement that you gave to Drago Nikolic's Defence team?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The facts presented in your statement, are they true and

 4     accurate?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do they reflect accurately what you would say to the Judges if

 7     they were to ask any questions about the events that you talk about in

 8     your statement?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this time I would

11     like to tender into evidence the witness statement provided by witness

12     Mara Milosevic and the number is 3D476.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection, Mr. McCloskey?  No objection from

14     the other Defence teams.  It is so admitted.  Thank you.  Please proceed.

15             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Now, I would like to ask you just a few questions,

17     Mrs. Milosevic, and to show you a document.  Could we please have 3D462

18     up in e-court.

19             On the screen in front of you, Mrs. Milosevic, you will see a

20     document that you handed to our investigators.  Do you see this document.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What is this document?

23        A.   This is my brother's obituary.

24        Q.   Is the date of his death indicated here and the time of his

25     funeral?

Page 25956

 1        A.   Yes, the date of his death and the time of his funeral.  This is

 2     the document whereby we inform our family, friends and everybody about

 3     the funeral, all the details.

 4        Q.   Thank you very much.  I won't be needing this document any

 5     longer.

 6             Mrs. Milosevic, have you ever learned who saw your late brother

 7     alive -- who was the last person to see your brother alive in July 1995?

 8        A.   After the funeral I learned that it was a man from Bratunac, that

 9     he saw him in front of the Standard and that he was on his way home but

10     was then recalled.  I don't know the name of this man from Bratunac.  He

11     spoke to my brothers and he said that he had seen my brother on the 15th

12     of July, it was a Saturday, in front of the Standard barracks.

13        Q.   In your statement, you mentioned that you made a phone call to

14     Drago Nikolic's house on the 16th of July.  Who did you speak to?

15        A.   I called Drago Nikolic's house and I spoke with his wife, Milena.

16        Q.   And what did she tell you?

17        A.   She told me that Drago was -- had been home but that he had left

18     to go to the command maybe an hour ago.  And I asked her to give me a

19     phone number so that I could call Drago and then she gave me the phone

20     number.  That was it.

21        Q.   And did you make this phone call?

22        A.   I didn't call Drago immediately because my brother had told

23     him -- had told me not to call for minor things while he was still alive.

24     So we discussed what to do, and in the end I decided to go to the

25     hospital together with my friend, Slobodanka Gajic, just to check what

Page 25957

 1     was going on.  And when we came close to the hospital, there was quite a

 2     crowd in front of the hospital, a lot of women who were crying.  And I

 3     simply didn't dare to go up there.  I was afraid that I would get some

 4     bad news about my brother so that's why my friend Slobodanka went.  When

 5     she came back she told me that we should call Drago.  I went to my

 6     sister-in-law's place, I called Drago, he answered the phone and told me

 7     I should wait, that he would call me back in about half an hour when he

 8     gets some information about my brother.  But Drago never called back.

 9             At around 3, between 3 and 4, my husband, who had also been

10     mobilised, he called me to come home because he didn't have a key.  He

11     wanted to take a shower, and when I got there they were in my neighbour's

12     apartment.  Drago was there; Milos Petkovic, another close relative of

13     mine was there; my husband; and the nurse.  They had brought the nurse

14     with them to treat me, if necessary.

15        Q.   Thank you very much, Mrs. Milosevic.  It's all contained in your

16     statement.  I don't want you to get upset.

17             Can we please move into private session for just a couple of

18     questions, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Of course, Ms. Nikolic.  Let's go into private

20     session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25958

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I didn't

17     expect the witness to give such long answers but, in fact, I can now

18     bring my examination-in-chief to an end.  Thank you, Mrs. Milosevic.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.  Again, I take it there's

20     no one interested from the other Defence teams in putting any questions

21     to the witness.  Correct.  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I have one question.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Go ahead.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mrs. Milosevic.  My name is Peter McCloskey, I

Page 25959

 1     represent the Prosecution.  And everyone appreciates you coming here

 2     today and I just have one question for you, okay?  Okay.  Mrs. Nikolic

 3     asked you about that phone call that you made to Drago Nikolic's house

 4     and you spoke to his wife.  Can you tell us about what time of day you

 5     made that phone call?  Just give us your best estimate.

 6        A.   Well, it may have been around lunchtime, between 1 and 2.  I

 7     can't recall the exact time.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Thank you, that's all I wanted to ask you

 9     about.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  I take it there's no

11     re-examination, Ms. Nikolic?

12             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mrs. Milosevic, your testimony comes to an end

14     here.  There will be no further questions for you.  On behalf of the

15     Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you very much for having come over to give

16     evidence in this case.  And while assuring you that our staff will extend

17     to you all the assistance you require to facilitate your return back

18     home, we all wish you a very safe journey back home.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, documents.  I suppose it's only the statement

22     and the obituary; correct?

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.  The other

24     document that was shown to the witness, it is 3D462, if I'm not mistaken.

25     The list has already been submitted.

Page 25960

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Any objection?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So those documents are admitted.  And we

 4     come to the last witness.

 5             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me, I

 6     expect that the witness is already here but I just wanted to check.  If

 7     the witness is here, we can continue; or if she's not, we can perhaps

 8     make a break now and then complete our examination of the witness in one

 9     session.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is the next witness here?  Yes, the next witness is

11     here.

12             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Then we can proceed.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  As you wish, Ms. Nikolic.  If you prefer to have

14     the break now, we can always have it now.  It doesn't make a difference

15     to us.  It's up to you.

16             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I think perhaps this would be a

17     good time for a break.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  We have a 25-minute break now and we'll continue

19     later.

20                           --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ready for the next witness.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you very much,

24     Mr. President.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Again I make the same suggestion or recommendation

Page 25961

 1     to you, what is already covered by the statement try to omit because it

 2     is -- it's a live witness.  Okay, you are right.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             MS. NIKOLIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, all of those

 5     witnesses were 92 bis.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  92 ter, they were, yeah.  Good afternoon to you,

 7     madam.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome to this Tribunal.  You've been summoned as

10     a witness by the Nikolic Defence team.  Before you start giving evidence

11     our rules require that you make a solemn declaration that in the course

12     of your testimony you will be speaking the truth.  The text of the solemn

13     declaration is being handed to you now.  Please read it out aloud and

14     that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

18     Ms. Nikolic will be putting some questions to you and then you will be

19     cross-examined by the Prosecution and maybe by others.

20                           WITNESS:  DUSICA SIKIMIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Examination by Ms. Nikolic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Sikimic.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   We've already met but I would like you to state your full name

Page 25962

 1     for the record.

 2        A.   My name is Dusica Sikimic.

 3        Q.   What year were you born, when?

 4        A.   I was born in Sarajevo on the 12th of May, 1963.

 5        Q.   Are you married, do you have children?

 6        A.   I'm married.  I have two daughters from my first marriage.

 7        Q.   What education do you have, what is your current occupation?

 8        A.   I have completed secondary education and I am a postal clerk

 9     right now.

10        Q.   Are you related to Drago Nikolic?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Were you ever family with him?

13        A.   Yes, I was.  I was married to Dusan Nikolic who is

14     Drago Nikolic's relative.

15        Q.   Where did you live when the war broke out in Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina?

17        A.   I lived in Sarajevo until March 1992.  We left for Sabac then and

18     in August and September 1993, we came to Zvornik.

19        Q.   When the war broke out, was your late husband Dusan Nikolic

20     mobilised and into what unit?

21        A.   In 1992 Dusan was a member of the Zvornik -- or, rather, the

22     Bratunac Brigade, and in 1993 he was transferred to the Zvornik Brigade

23     as a military policeman.

24        Q.   In July 1995, where did you live with your family?

25        A.   At that time we lived in Zvornik in the town centre.

Page 25963

 1        Q.   I would now like to move on to some events in July 1995 after the

 2     fall of Srebrenica and I would like to ask you whether anything of

 3     significance happened in your family at that time.

 4        A.   Well, the events that transpired in those days left an impact on

 5     my children and myself and they changed my life completely.  They turned

 6     it around.  That is when my husband, Dusan Nikolic, was killed.

 7        Q.   Mrs. Sikimic, I will try to cut my examination short as much as

 8     possible lest I should upset you and I would like us to cover what you

 9     told us about in just a few -- with just a few questions.  But if you

10     need us to take a break, please tell us that.

11             When was the last time that you saw your husband alive?

12        A.   The last time I saw him was the 12th of July, 1995.  That's when

13     he came.  I was at Mara's place.  She was my late husband's sister.  He

14     came to tell us that he was going to Dzafin Kamen with the military

15     police and that he would be back soon.

16        Q.   Were there any events that were related to the brigade around

17     Zvornik at that time?

18        A.   Yes.  This is when the columns of troops were passing by in the

19     vicinity of Zvornik from the direction of Srebrenica.

20        Q.   Did you know where your husband was at the time?

21        A.   Well, he had told me that that is where he was heading, but I did

22     not know where he was after that.

23        Q.   Did you at any time try to learn where he was with his unit?

24        A.   Yes.  On the 15th of July I did try to do that.  I was at work,

25     it was a Saturday and I had a direct phone line, phone number where I

Page 25964

 1     could reach Drago Nikolic at the Standard barracks.  And I called him and

 2     he told me that he had seen Dusan that morning, that I should not worry.

 3        Q.   What happened the next day?

 4        A.   Well, in the morning of the 16th I went to the green market and I

 5     heard people talk about fierce fighting around Zvornik at Baljkovica and

 6     I was very much upset.  I went to see my husband's sister.  We had coffee

 7     and we were both worried.  We didn't know where Dusan was.

 8        Q.   Were you able to learn about what was happening at a later stage?

 9        A.   I went back home and I heard my neighbours say that there was

10     fierce fighting at Baljkovica and that there were quite a few casualties,

11     both killed and wounded, and I was really very much upset at that time.

12        Q.   Did you talk to Mara Milosevic on that day?

13        A.   Yes.  We had coffee that morning and I called her and I told her

14     what I had learned, and she told me that she had called Drago Nikolic and

15     that he had told her that everything was fine and that there was no need

16     for her to get worried.

17        Q.   Where were you at the time?

18        A.   I was in my apartment.  I had asked Mara to come and see me and

19     that's what she did.

20        Q.   Did Mara come alone?

21        A.   No, no.  Mara was there with Slobodanka Gajic and they had been

22     to the hospital en route.  Mara didn't dare to go to the hospital itself,

23     she remained at the crossroads.  Slobodanka Gajic went to the hospital

24     itself and she heard that Dusan had been killed.  But she didn't want to

25     tell us that at the time, this thing that she had heard.  She came to us

Page 25965

 1     and she told us that we should call Drago Nikolic.

 2        Q.   Did anyone call Drago Nikolic and from where?

 3        A.   When they came to my apartment, Mara called Drago Nikolic again

 4     and talked to him, and he told her he didn't know anything and that he

 5     would let us know if he learned anything.

 6        Q.   Do you recall what happened later on?

 7        A.   After that, Drago Nikolic called Mara and Mara went to their

 8     apartment.  I remained where I was.  I was very upset because I had this

 9     feeling that something was wrong, and I went after them.  I came to

10     Mara's apartment and when I got to the door, she was crying and she asked

11     me, "Why are you here?  Drago Nikolic and Mico Petkovic had gone to see

12     you."  And I asked her what had happened and she said, "Well, Dula was

13     killed."

14        Q.   Did you then go back to your apartment?

15        A.   No, no, I didn't.  I was in no state to do so.  I remained in

16     Mara's place and all of us, we spent this night at her place.

17        Q.   And did you see Drago Nikolic that day?

18        A.   Yes, I did.  Drago Nikolic came with my brother-in-law and my

19     father-in-law.  They had gone to the hospital to see the late Dusan.  We

20     were all there at Mara's place organising the funeral.

21        Q.   How long did you remain there at Mara's place that night?

22        A.   Well, deep into the night because we had this discussion how to

23     organise the funeral, who would do what, so we stayed late into the

24     night.

25        Q.   Do you recall what date it was?

Page 25966

 1        A.   It was the 16th of July, the night between the 16th and the 17th

 2     of July.

 3        Q.   1995?

 4        A.   Yes, 1995.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us what happened the next day?

 6        A.   Well, the next morning I went to the apartment to make some

 7     preparations for the funeral, and around 10 they brought Dusan in, his

 8     body, and in accordance with our customs, the dead man must leave the

 9     house.  He was brought in by the military police and Drago Nikolic was

10     with them.  He took part in organising the funeral and preparing the

11     casket, the suit, and all the other things that were needed to bury the

12     deceased.

13        Q.   Do you remember when this funeral occurred in Kravica?

14        A.   The funeral was in the late afternoon in Kravica.  We headed out

15     of Zvornik at around 11, or maybe 12.  And we took the detours, we didn't

16     take the main road.  We followed the Drina River.  It took us a long time

17     to get to Kravica which was where the funeral was held.

18             After the funeral, we returned to Bratunac where the funeral mass

19     was held.

20        Q.   Was Drago Nikolic with you at the funeral that day?

21        A.   Yes, Drago Nikolic was with us at all times.

22        Q.   From the morning until the evening of that day?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.  From the morning until the evening of that

24     day he was with us.

25        Q.   Did you ever talk to Slobodanka Gajic, you mentioned her a little

Page 25967

 1     while ago.  What was it that she learned when she was in Zvornik on the

 2     16th of July, 1995?

 3        A.   Yes.  After I went back to Zvornik, I asked her why she didn't

 4     tell us that at that time and she said that it was simply because she

 5     didn't want to be the first person to tell us that, that she had heard

 6     that Dusan had been killed and that Drago Nikolic had also been there and

 7     that he had taken his wedding ring and his belt and his uniform, the one

 8     that he was killed in.  And then Mara Milosevic gave me this wedding ring

 9     later.  Slobodanka told me that he was very much upset.

10        Q.   Just for the record, where did Slobodanka hear that?

11        A.   In the hospital, that's where she heard it.

12        Q.   Was Drago at the hospital?

13        A.   Yes, he was.  He was in the hospital.  He had been notified by

14     phone.  He was the first one to see Dusan dead.

15        Q.   Did you later on ask Drago Nikolic how he came to learn of your

16     husband's death?

17        A.   Yes.  We spoke after the funeral.  He said that he was at home

18     and that he was told that Dusan was taken to the hospital.  At that point

19     he went to the hospital and that's when he saw him.

20        Q.   Who did you hear that from?

21        A.   From Drago.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 3D378 brought

23     up in e-court.

24        Q.   While we are waiting for the document, I wanted to ask you,

25     Mrs. Sikimic, at the document and tell us what it is?

Page 25968

 1        A.   It is a death certificate for my late husband, Dusan Nikolic.

 2             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We will no longer need

 3     the document.

 4        Q.   Did you ever hear who the last person was to see your husband

 5     alive?

 6        A.   Yes.  After the funeral a soldier arrived in Bratunac.  He told

 7     me that on the 15th of July, 1995, at Standard, he saw Dusan who was on

 8     his way home, and Dusan gave him cigarettes at that time.

 9        Q.   When did you meet Drago Nikolic?

10        A.   After I got married in 1983 to Dusan, that's when it was.

11        Q.   What was the relationship like between the late Dusan,

12     Drago Nikolic and Drago's four brothers?

13        A.   It was a good relationship.  Drago and Dusan were born the same

14     year.  They grew up together, finished primary school.  They socialised

15     as if they were brothers.

16        Q.   What was his relationship with the other -- with the rest of

17     Drago's brothers?

18        A.   The same.

19             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

20     examination-in-chief.  I have no further questions.

21             Thank you, Ms. Sikimic.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.  I take it there are no

23     cross-examination from the Defence teams.  Correct.  Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Just a couple of questions, Mr. President.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

Page 25969

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, Mrs. Sikimic.  My name is Peter McCloskey.  I

 2     represent the Prosecution.  Just a couple of questions, if that's all

 3     right.

 4             You mentioned that you called Drago Nikolic's house on the --

 5     sorry, you called Drago Nikolic at Standard on the 15th of July; right.

 6        A.   Right.

 7        Q.   Do you remember roughly what time of day that was?

 8        A.   I do.  I do.  It was around 10 a.m.  It was a Saturday and I was

 9     with the post office at the time.  It was a working day but we had short

10     hours.  We would go home at 1 o'clock.  I called Drago Nikolic at

11     Standard around 10 a.m.

12        Q.   Okay.  And the next day, the 16th, you mentioned you were

13     organising the funeral that evening with some of your relatives.  Who was

14     with you organising the funeral that evening?

15        A.   We were making arrangements concerning the funeral in

16     Mara Milosevic's apartment.  Ilija Nikolic and his other -- Dusan's other

17     brother were present.  Drago Nikolic, Slobodan Nikolic, Mara Milosevic,

18     that is to say, my late husband's sister, and the Nikolic family.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  I take it no re-examination?

21             Madam, there are no further questions for you which means your

22     testimony finishes here.  Our staff will give you all the assistance you

23     need to facilitate your return back home.  On behalf of the

24     Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over to give testimony

25     and we also wish you a safe journey back home.

Page 25970

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  No documents?

 4             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] One, Your Honour.  I hope the list

 5     had been sent.  It is a 3D382 that we showed to the witness.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Any objection, Mr. McCloskey?  Is it 382 or

 7     378?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have no objection, Mr. President.  There's the

 9     English version of this -- I guess it's the B/C/S, it's dated 2006, but I

10     guess if the original says 2006, that's not a translation issue.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So no objection.  And the document is

12     admitted.

13             Yes.  Did you wish --

14             MS. NIKOLIC:  [Interpretation] 3D378.  Sorry, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  3D378.  All right.  There were a couple of motions

16     that we could decide orally but I have to -- let's leave them for Monday

17     because when I remember -- and I can locate it straightaway, the other

18     one I have to -- let's leave that for Monday anyway.

19             There is a motion that has now been filed by Madam Fauveau,

20     albeit in French, I suppose you know exactly what she is after.  If you

21     could give us a oral response at your earliest, we will decide it

22     together with the others.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, that will be no problem.

24     I've spoken to Ms. Fauveau.  More documents and materials for the 65 ter

25     list, it shouldn't be a problem.

Page 25971

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

 2             MR. JOSSE:  We may need a little time to consider that, please.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Thank you.  So we'll hear from

 4     you on Monday, Mr. Josse, maybe?

 5             MR. JOSSE:  Well, we would like a little bit longer, Your Honour.

 6     And I'm not sure -- I don't think -- I think quite a lot of these

 7     documents are not yet translated into English, but perhaps Madam Fauveau

 8     would help in relation to that.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Her microphone is on.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters could not hear, sorry.

13             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately those

14     documents are not yet translated.  We are going to do our best that the

15     documents are translated when we present our case.  Some of these

16     documents we were received in July and August and it is quite normal that

17     we were not able to have them translated yet.  But I just wanted to say

18     that that motion is regards some document that we received in July and we

19     had researched some circumstances with regard to those documents and so

20     we have not inquired about the documents received on the 29th of August,

21     but we will do -- we will give you a response as soon as we come back

22     from the break that you have granted us.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

24             Yes, Mr. Josse.  And then Ms. Nikolic.

25             MR. JOSSE:  Could I make it clear to my learned friend that I'm

Page 25972

 1     not being critical of the fact that they are not translated, I simply

 2     wanted to point that out and say that we do require a little bit more

 3     time and we will not have an answer for Monday.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  No.  You will have the time you require, Mr. Josse.

 5             MR. JOSSE:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  The same applies to the Prosecution, of course.

 7     This was not a deadline we were imposing, we were just asking.

 8             Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one question

10     that has to do with the videolink that is due to take place on the 24th

11     of September in Belgrade.  Both witnesses that were scheduled for the day

12     live in Zvornik and it's surroundings.  Because of the fact that we were

13     trying to make their logistics easier in terms of travel, is it possible

14     that we begin with the videolink at 10 o'clock instead of 9, which would

15     be the regular session time?

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  And between 9 and 10 can we do something else?

17             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this point, Your Honour, we have

18     three witnesses scheduled for Monday and Tuesday and it is possible that

19     at least one of them will spill over to Wednesday.  Should that not be

20     the case, we will inform you in time.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We'll see to that when we come to it.

22     Yes, anything else you wish to state?  Nothing.  So we stand adjourned

23     until Monday.  We have got your list of the witnesses for next week,

24     Ms. Nikolic.  And I think we are all organised and ready for the coming

25     week.  In the meantime, tomorrow we will make use of to try and round up

Page 25973

 1     our deliberations on some of the motions that are still pending.  Thank

 2     you.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.10 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of

 5                           September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.