Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25974

 1                           Monday, 22 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 6     case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, ma'am.  All the accused are present.

10     From the Defence teams I only notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic,

11     Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Haynes.

12             The Prosecution team today consists of Mr. McCloskey and

13     Mr. Thayer.  Mr. Bourgon, where is he?  We have been told you have a

14     preliminary, we know what was what it is all about; the motion hasn't

15     been filed as officially as yet unless it has been filed in the last few

16     minutes.  We were suppose today have a courtesy copy at least our senior

17     legal officer.  Is the Prosecution au courant with the subject matter of

18     your would be motion?  Sorry to have cut it just to economize our time.

19             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Judges.

20     Good morning colleagues.  The Prosecution also received a courtesy copy

21     on Friday afternoon it was briefly discussed over the phone,

22     Mr. President.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is there an objection from the Prosecution.

24             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, so in expectation of the motion that

Page 25975

 1     will be received, we granted beforehand

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  So basically that's it.  Your motion is granted and

 4     you can -- you have these photos included in the 65 ter list, which of

 5     course you can make use of.  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon anything else.

 6             MR. BOURGON:  Yes, indeed, Mr. President.  I have two more

 7     preliminaries I would like to discuss with the Trial Chamber this

 8     morning.  The first one has to do with the scheduling of Witness 3DW-1.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Let me, 3DW?

10             MR. BOURGON:  1, who is our expert witness.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

12             MR. BOURGON:  And I need to go into private session to raise this

13     issue, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session, please.

15                           [Private session]

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21                           [Open session]

22             MR. BOURGON:  The second preliminary issue has to do also with

23     Witness 3DW1.  He is scheduled to testify beginning on Thursday morning

24     of this week, and we have been in contact with him, and he has asked the

25     Defence whether we at all possible to end his testimony by Friday the

Page 25977

 1     next day in order to complete the testimony in two days.  With the

 2     present estimate that is we have, this is a tight fit.

 3             Although it is possible, we would be short about half an hour,

 4     maybe an hour to complete his testimony on Friday.  Again, I've informed

 5     my colleague of this issue and the question this morning is would the

 6     Trial Chamber be prepared to go into an extended session on Friday

 7     afternoon, if this is possible of course from a logistics point of view,

 8     in order to end the testimony of that witness on Friday.  Thank you,

 9     Mr. President.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Of course I need to consult with my colleagues on

11     this, of course everyone has commitments like you have.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  The position is as follows:  Towards the end of the

14     week we will be sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis because Judge Kwon has

15     got other duties to attend to, official duties.  It so happens that on

16     Friday afternoon, my colleague Judge Prost quite early in the afternoon

17     has a commitment of her own, in other words, she can't be here for a

18     prolonged sitting.  The sitting will have to end at the scheduled time.

19             However, we are thinking of suggesting to you if this is

20     acceptable to not just to you and the Prosecution, but to all the others,

21     if we on Thursday instead of starting at 9 o'clock in the morning we

22     start at 8 o'clock in the morning.  And that applies also to the staff,

23     technicians and everything.  I know that exceptionally it is done but for

24     it to happen we need to have the the agreement of everyone.

25             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 25978

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  I wake up early anyway at 6 a.m. I'm up usually,

 2     so ...

 3             MR. BOURGON:  I thank the Trial Chamber for this information.

 4     This is the reason why I raise it at this time.  From our point of view,

 5     Mr. President, there will be no problem starting with 8, but I need to

 6     consult with everybody else before I can give you an answer.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  You do that and once you have sort of reached an

 8     agreement or et cetera, then you need to consult with your respective

 9     clients in other words each one of you please consult with your

10     respective clients before you talk to Mr. Bourgon, particularly, because

11     I don't want to create problems for anyone.

12             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, there is one final preliminary issue

13     which I think has become a non-issue, but there were conversations

14     between the Prosecution and us concerning the scheduling for the

15     following week because on Tuesday the 30th is a holiday.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is a holiday.

17             MR. BOURGON:  There were discussions that maybe there could be no

18     sitting on Monday to allow for a long weekend, Mr. President, in order to

19     prepare; but we are not asking for this and the other -- my colleague

20     from the Defence may very well ask or not ask from the Prosecution side I

21     was informed this morning they are no longer look for this day or we are

22     not looking for that day either.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Depends whether or not it disrupts your plans to

24     finish your case on the first week of October.

25             MR. BOURGON:  The consequences as I informed the Prosecution

Page 25979

 1     yesterday of course if we take that day then for sure we will not be able

 2     to finish by Friday the 3rd.  If we work on that day it's a possibility

 3     that we will finish, although it is not a guarantee we might have to go a

 4     bit into the following week.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Think further about it and let us know.

 6     We are here to work, in other words we will all be here on Monday

 7     available, but we'll await for further feedback from you in due course.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Finally just to inform

 9     the Trial Chamber that there might be a short gap in the scheduling

10     tomorrow.  We have two witnesses lined up today, we are not sure whether

11     we will be able to complete both witnesses today.  If so, that would

12     leave only one witness for tomorrow before we do the video conferences on

13     Wednesday.  So just so inform the Trial Chamber that there might be some

14     free time at the end of tomorrow.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

16             MR. BOURGON:  We are ready to proceed with our next witness,

17     Mr. President.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Bring in the witness, please.  Mr. Bourgon, when is

19     your Thursday and Friday witness 3DW1 arriving here?

20             MR. BOURGON:  He has arrived last night, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can't you start him off tomorrow?

22             MR. BOURGON:  No, because he has been away for some time and he

23     has something that is already scheduled that he is attending also in The

24     Hague, and we told him he was beginning on Thursday.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  In other words he can't spare one hour tomorrow and

Page 25980

 1     start off.

 2             MR. BOURGON:  Well, I can certainly ask him and see if that is

 3     possible.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thanks.  Good morning to you,

 5     Mr. Kostic.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Good morning.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  And you are most welcome to this Tribunal.  You are

 8     about to start giving evidence.  Before you do so, our rules require that

 9     you make a solemn declaration to the effect that in the course of your

10     testimony, you will be speaking the truth.  The text is going to be given

11     to you now, please read it out aloud; and that will be your solemn

12     undertaking with us.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Kostic.  Please make yourself

16     comfortable, have a seat.  Mr. Bourgon, whom you have already met, I

17     suppose, is going to put a series of questions to you.  He will then be

18     followed by others on cross-examination.  Mr. Bourgon, he is all yours.

19                           WITNESS:  STEVO KOSTIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Mr. Bourgon:

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. President.  Morning, sir.

23        A.   Morning.

24        Q.   For the record allow my to introduce myself, my name is

25     Stephane Bourgon.  And along with my colleague Ms. Jelena Nikolic and

Page 25981

 1     Ms. Marie-Claude Fornie.  We represent Drago Nikolic in these

 2     proceedings.  I have quite a few questions this morning and I would like

 3     to simply invite you that if there are any questions that you do not

 4     understand, do not hesitate to stop me so we can clarify those questions,

 5     do you understand this sir?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   Can you please state your name for the record?

 8        A.   Stevo Kostic.

 9        Q.   What is your date of birth and what is your age?

10        A.   The 27th of May 1956.  I'm 52 years old.

11        Q.   Where were you born?

12        A.   In a place called Vitinica near Zvornik.

13        Q.   How close is this from Zvornik?

14        A.   Around 20 kilometres.

15        Q.   Sir, before the war, what was your occupation?

16        A.   I completed high school.  I worked in the auto transport company

17     in Zvornik.

18        Q.   Because it is specific, I'm going to ask the next question, did

19     you play any sport before the war?

20        A.   Yes, I did.

21        Q.   Which sport did you play, sir?

22        A.   I played soccer for the Drina soccer club.

23        Q.   And, sir, today what is your occupation?

24        A.   I'm currently unemployed since my company went bankrupt.

25        Q.   And just to come back to the last question, the Drina football

Page 25982

 1     club, I take it this is a professional team, is it?

 2        A.   Yes.  I played professionally for the Drina club while working on

 3     my regular job.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were

 5     mobilised during the war in the VRS?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you were a member of the Zvornik Brigade in 1995?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you work for any company or battalion in particular?

10        A.   I was a member of the Military Police Company.

11        Q.   And who was the commander of the military police company?

12        A.   The commander of the MP Company was the then-lieutenant

13     Miomir Jasikovac.

14        Q.   And in the year 1995 what was your position with the Military

15     Police Company?

16        A.   In 1995, I was the clerk of the MP Company.

17        Q.   And were you the clerk of the Military Police Company throughout

18     the war or did you do something else before?

19        A.   When I arrived in the military police, I did the same tasks as

20     other military policemen did -- as of February 1993, I became the clerk

21     and I remained in that position until the end of the war.

22        Q.   Now, as the clerk of the Military Police Company, can you

23     describe your duties?  What did you do?

24        A.   I kept the list of attendants in the MP Company.  I made rosters

25     for the company.  And in the morning at lineup, I would read out daily

Page 25983

 1     orders, and all the other jobs that were necessary for the company.

 2        Q.   And, sir, who maintained the personnel records of the Military

 3     Police Company?

 4        A.   It was me who maintained it.

 5        Q.   And can you describe your normal day of work during the war, as a

 6     clerk of the Military Police Company?

 7        A.   In the morning, when we got up there would be a lineup and the

 8     hoisting of the flag.  If there were no combat activities to be expected,

 9     we would continue to read out the orders for the day, which I had

10     prepared the evening before.  Of course that had to be approved by

11     Commander Jasikovac.  I had to read that out in the morning and then the

12     military police went about following the tasks that had been issued to

13     them.  The lineup would be followed by breakfast and then everyone had

14     their own respective tasks in the barracks at Standard or elsewhere.

15        Q.   Yourself, where did you work?

16        A.   I had an office that I shared with Commander Jasikovac and I

17     spent most of my time there.  I was usually in Standard or in the office,

18     whatever the duties may have been.

19        Q.   Now, I'd like to show you a picture at this point in time.  This

20     picture is for in e-court please, 3D490.  This picture will appear in

21     front of you on the screen, and I would like you to take a look at this

22     picture, and I will ask you a question.

23             Sir, do you recognise this picture, and if so, what is it?

24        A.   Yes, I do.  This is the entrance of the command in our building.

25     I can see here the window of the office where we were.  That is to say,

Page 25984

 1     the room that belonged to the MP Company.

 2        Q.   At this point in time, sir, I will ask the court usher to provide

 3     you with a pen, this is a special pen that allows you to write on the

 4     screen; and I would like you to indicate on this picture and to indicate

 5     the number 1 on the window of the office you occupied along with

 6     Lieutenant Jasikovac.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And can you put a circle around this 1.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Now, although this is an obvious question, can you put the number

11     2 at the main entrance of the command building?

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And put a circle around the 2.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And if you can at the bottom of this -- of the screen, if you can

16     indicate today's date, as well as your name and initials.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And if you can put 3DW15, so that we know that this is markings

19     that you made.  I can repeat those figures.  3DW15.  Thank you.

20             My next question is sitting from your office could you see

21     visitors coming into the main building or to the main command building?

22        A.   Yes, I could.

23        Q.   We won't be needing this picture anymore, although there are more

24     coming.

25             Sir, my next question is do you know who Cedo Jovic and

Page 25985

 1     Goran Bogdanovic are?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us who they are and if you knew them in July of

 4     1995?

 5        A.   I did know them, of course.  They were members of the MP Company,

 6     but they were there as lawyers.  They were in the department for

 7     combatting crime.

 8        Q.   And was there any other lawyers that you know of in the Military

 9     Police Company?

10        A.   Yes, there were.

11        Q.   Can you share the names of these lawyers with us?

12        A.   In addition to Bogdanovic and Jovic, there was also

13     Nebojsa Jeremic.

14        Q.   Do you know where was the office of the lawyers or of the legal

15     department where Jovic, Bogdanovic and Jeremic worked?

16        A.   Yes, yes, I do.

17        Q.   I will now show you another picture which is in e-court 3D496,

18     and again I will ask you to do some markings on this picture.  First take

19     a look at the picture that will appear in front of you, and then I will

20     ask you a question.

21             Sir, do you recognise this picture.

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   And can you tell us what it is?

24        A.   It's also the command building.

25        Q.   And do you know where the window of the office occupied by the

Page 25986

 1     legal department was?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I would like you to use the pen that will be given to you by the

 4     court usher, and to indicate the number 1 on the window of the office

 5     occupied by the legal department.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   And if you can put a circle around this 1.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And again at the bottom of this drawing, if you can put the date,

10     your initials, and the same number 3DW15.

11        A.   [Marks] What else do I need to write, 3D?

12        Q.   The same number, 3DW15.

13             My next question, sir, is from this window, is it possible to see

14     the main entrance of the Standard barracks?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   The lawyers you mentioned earlier, did they work in the same

17     office or did they have more than one office?

18        A.   All three of them were in the same office.

19        Q.   Thank you, we won't be needing that picture any more, but there's

20     more coming up later.

21             Sir, did you as the clerk of the Military Police Company go to

22     the field along with the other military policemen?

23        A.   There were such instances when I was sent into the field.  A few

24     times when the lines came under attack.

25        Q.   Was that something that happened regularly?

Page 25987

 1        A.   I did go two or three times.

 2        Q.   Now, as the clerk, after 1993 did you perform any duties like the

 3     other military policemen did?

 4        A.   No, I did not.

 5        Q.   And before you became the clerk, did you perform any duties in

 6     the Standard barracks, like the other military policemen?

 7        A.   I joined the military police in December 1992.  My tasks were

 8     that -- were the regular military policemen tasks, I was at the gates, I

 9     was at the bridges, and took part in any apprehensions, if there were

10     any.  Regular -- the regular military police tasks.

11        Q.   And as a clerk after 1993 did you perform at any time these other

12     tasks, for example, on the bridge?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   And did you perform any tasks, were you ever at the gate after

15     1993?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   You mentioned earlier the morning lineups.  Where were these --

18     how did these morning lineups were conducted?

19        A.   There were lineups for the whole barracks just before breakfast.

20     I don't remember any more at what time exactly.  Each of the units would

21     have their own lineup, our MP company would be headed by Commander

22     Jasikovac, the rank and file soldiers were lined up.  I would come

23     forward and read out the daily orders.  That's it.  And the same goes for

24     the rest of the units.

25        Q.   Did Jasikovac have a deputy to run the Military Police Company?

Page 25988

 1        A.   Yes, he did.

 2        Q.   And who was the deputy?

 3        A.   His deputy was my younger brother Aco Kostic.

 4        Q.   Do you know Drago Nikolic and did you know him in 1995?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   And do you know what was his position in 1995?

 7        A.   He was head of security.

 8        Q.   Now, did you have any dealings with Drago Nikolic for work

 9     purposes?

10        A.   I did not.  Drago Nikolic communicated with Jasikovac.  I knew

11     Drago Nikolic, we would greet each other, but we had no dealings.

12        Q.   And did Drago Nikolic work with the legal department?

13        A.   We was in contact with them, yes.

14        Q.   Now, can you tell us when Drago Nikolic and Jasikovac

15     communicated as you mentioned at line 6, what did they talk about?

16        A.   I think that every morning the commander met his associate

17     issuing them tasks for the day.  After that the chief of security,

18     Drago Nikolic, would see Jasikovac; Jasikovac would go to his office and

19     he would issue orders to him if there was anything to be done by the

20     military police.  Therefore, they would meet and talk about the things we

21     were supposed to do.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

23             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just for a clarification for the

24     record, there's a reference to the commander meeting his associates, I

25     think we probably all know what or to whom that refers but if we could

Page 25989

 1     just clarify commander versus "komandir" or precisely who we are talking

 2     about there.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

 4             MR. BOURGON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I was going to thank my

 5     colleague for his ...

 6        Q.   So you mentioned that the commander met with his associates.  Who

 7     were you referring to?

 8        A.   Are you asking me that question?

 9        Q.   Yes, yes, yes.

10        A.   Commander Pandurevic would you have an early briefing with his

11     immediate associates meaning the chief of security, the head of the

12     brigade of logistics; and they would agree on the things that were

13     supposed to be done that day.  After that the chief of security, if there

14     were any tasks of the military police, apart from our regular duties, he

15     would see Jasikovac and issue him with certain tasks that we would see

16     through.

17        Q.   And did Jasikovac attend a meeting with Commander Pandurevic?

18        A.   Maybe occasionally, I don't know.

19        Q.   And you, yourself, did you attend that meeting with

20     Commander Pandurevic?

21        A.   No, never.

22        Q.   And when there were meetings between Jasikovac and Drago Nikolic,

23     did you attend these meetings?

24        A.   No, I did not.

25        Q.   And to your knowledge, sir, did Drago Nikolic issue orders to the

Page 25990

 1     members of the Military Police Company?

 2        A.   Drago did not issue orders to us, Jasikovac did.

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  What about the personnel records of the military

 4     police, what was Drago Nikolic's involvement with these records?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   And how many members were in the Military Police Company of the

 7     Zvornik Brigade?

 8        A.   Around 90 men.

 9        Q.   And can you tell us about the organisation of the Military Police

10     Company, how was it organised?

11        A.   The MP Company performed solely the police tasks.  There were

12     three platoons; there was formally speaking the apprehension platoon, the

13     traffic platoon, the security platoon; they were supposed to provide

14     guards at the gate, et cetera.  And they were involved in the military

15     police tasks.  That's it.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I'd just like to go back, my colleague is bringing my

17     attention to something that you said.  In terms of the dealings between

18     Lieutenant Jasikovac and Drago Nikolic, at page 15 lines 14 to 16 you

19     mentioned that Drago Nikolic would issue orders.  And later on you spoke

20     about taskings that were issued by Drago Nikolic --  to Jasikovac.  Are

21     we talking about orders or taskings?

22        A.   Well, tasks.  I think that when Jasikovac went to see him for

23     these briefings that he was given tasks.  He was told what we were

24     supposed to be doing.

25        Q.   Thank you, that is just to clarify one issue.

Page 25991

 1             Were there any drivers in the Military Police Company?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you remember who suppose drivers were in July of 1995?

 4        A.   Yes.  Dragan Stevic was the driver of Commander Pandurevic.

 5     Milorad Bircakovic was the driver of the chief of security Drago Nikolic.

 6     Those of us who were members of the MP Company had two drivers who drove

 7     our minivan, Drago Acimovic and Mirko Matic.  We had another driver who

 8     would come only occasionally and was given work details, he also drove a

 9     minibus.

10        Q.   And did Jasikovac have a driver?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   What role did the military policemen play in terms of, or in

13     respect of deserters?

14        A.   The military policeman would bring in military deserters into the

15     Standard.  If a battalion notified the MP of certain soldiers having

16     deserted their positions, then the military police would bring them in to

17     the Standard in Karakaj.

18        Q.   So was there a detention facility in Standard?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And who was kept in this detention facility?

21        A.   This was the detention facility for our deserters who left their

22     positions.  So it was for our members or other members of our brigade.

23        Q.   Did the battalions of the Zvornik Brigade have any military

24     policemen?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 25992

 1        Q.   How many, if you remember?

 2        A.   I don't remember.  There may have been two in each.  I believe

 3     that one battalion even had three of them, I can't really remember at

 4     this time.  At any rate, every battalion had a military policeman.

 5        Q.   And the military policemen who were with the battalions, were

 6     they included as part of the Military Police Company of the Zvornik

 7     Brigade?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And did these military policemen change or were they always the

10     same one with each battalion or was there a rotation?

11        A.   They rotated.  There was policemen who spent longer period of

12     time in a given battalion because they were well acquainted with the

13     situation on the ground, but other than that, they did rotate.

14        Q.   Did the military policemen of the company perform any kind of

15     duty on the bridges between Zvornik and Serbia?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And what was that duty; can you describe that for us?

18        A.   The military police held the Karakaj bridge, the Sepak bridge,

19     and the Zvornik bridge for a while.  There was also the civilian police

20     force and the customs staff there.  The military policemen had to check

21     all the military-aged men on their way to Serbia.  All those who wanted

22     to go to Serbia and who were of military age had to have a permit for

23     that purpose.  This was their task.

24        Q.   And how many military policemen were at the, take them one by

25     one, the Karakaj bridge, for example?

Page 25993

 1        A.   Approximately one to two.  I can't remember exactly.

 2        Q.   Do you remember the names of those who were responsible for this

 3     bridge or who had this as a specific tasking?

 4        A.   They rotated.  There weren't the same policemen every day.  I

 5     made a roster for them, one day they would be assigned to the Sepak

 6     bridge, another day to the Karakaj bridge, and then still other to the

 7     Zvornik bridge, and there were several policemen who were assigned to the

 8     bridges.  They worked in two shifts.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat the last sentence?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Kostic, can you repeat the last sentence please

11     because the interpreters didn't catch you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I said, that they worked in two

13     shifts.  There was the first and second stint and then overnight there

14     were no military policemen at the bridge, there was only the civilian

15     police.

16             MR. BOURGON:

17        Q.   Now, if we turn back to Standard, what other duties did the

18     military policemen perform at Standard barracks?

19        A.   Members of the Military Police Company were at the gate at

20     reception box there and this was their non-stop duty.

21        Q.   And did they perform any other duties in Standard barracks?

22        A.   I didn't understand the question.

23        Q.   You mentioned that one of the duties performed by the members of

24     the Military Police Company was to be at the gate.  You said at the

25     reception box there, and we will come back to that.  Was there any other

Page 25994

 1     duties that they performed at Standard barracks?

 2        A.   The military policemen who were on duty at the gate took note of

 3     those entering the barracks compound.

 4        Q.   I'm sorry, my question was not precise enough.  Other than the

 5     gate, were there any other duties performed by military policemen within

 6     Standard barracks?

 7        A.   Right.

 8        Q.   Were there any other duty that is you remember of?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, there were.  Not all the policemen were at the gate.

10     They rotated there as well.

11        Q.   I'd like now to show you a picture which is for e-court please,

12     3D497.  We will use the same procedure, it will appear in front of you.

13     I would ask if you take a look at it and then --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse?

15             MR. JOSSE:  Sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, could my client be

16     excused for a few minutes, the trial can continue in his absence.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, okay.  I just wants to make sure since there

18     are always a limited number of guards, that this is possible.  If you

19     could wait one moment, Mr. Gvero.  Do you think you can work this out?

20     Okay.  All right.

21             MR. JOSSE:  We are grateful to the security staff.  Apologies to

22     my learned friend and the witness.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

24             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the picture that is in front of you, and if

Page 25995

 1     so, what is it?

 2        A.   Yes.  This is the reception area where the military policemen

 3     were located when they were on duty at the gate.

 4        Q.   Now, to the left of that picture, we see a building in the back.

 5     What building is this?

 6        A.   This is the command of our brigade.

 7        Q.   And can you explain what was in that office where the military

 8     policemen on duty at the gate were?  Can you describe that office, what

 9     was there?

10        A.   Normally there were two policemen on duty at the gate.  One was

11     inside the reception office and would take note of those going into and

12     out of the barracks.  Whereas the other policemen would stay outside the

13     office in order to lift the swing gate for the vehicles entering or

14     leaving the barracks.

15        Q.   Sir, if I look at the right of this picture, there's the gate

16     there.  Do you recall what that gate was for in 1995?

17        A.   Yes.  The soldiers or civilians entering the Standard barracks

18     would pass through there.

19             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, for the record, Mr. President, the

20     witness was referring to exhibits -- at least to picture 3D497 until it

21     becomes an exhibit, and I would like to now have in e-court 3D500.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

23             MR. BOURGON:

24        Q.   Sir, a new picture will appear in front of you, and we'll use the

25     same procedure.  I would like you to take a look at the picture and tell

Page 25996

 1     you [sic] what it is?

 2        A.   I see the entranceway to the Standard barracks.  The gate through

 3     which the vehicles would enter the barracks compound.

 4        Q.   Now, with the assistance -- do you see on this picture the

 5     barrier that needs to be lifted to let cars in and out?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I would like you, to -- using the pen given to you by the usher,

 8     can you put a circle around the barrier that was lifted to let the cars

 9     in and out?

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Sir, when was this picture taken, if you know?

12        A.   A month or two ago, I think.

13        Q.   And were you present when these pictures were taken?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So, what you draw -- can you explain what is it that you draw a

16     circle around?

17        A.   This is the gate, how should I put it?  This is where the barrier

18     was lifted for vehicles to pass through.  The barrier itself was

19     dismantled as there is no need for it there at present.  Otherwise, it

20     used to be there, and it had to be lifted for the vehicles to pass into

21     or out of the barracks.

22        Q.   And, sir, was there also a gate that could be rolled out in front

23     of the entrance to Standard barracks?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   If you see this barrier on this picture, can you put a circle

Page 25997

 1     around it?

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   And can you put the number 2 beside the circle?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And at the bottom of the picture, same procedure, put the date,

 6     your initials, as well as number 3DW15, please.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Please.  Thank you, we won't be needing that picture anymore.

 9     I'd like to have in e-court now 3D502.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are discussing, and it did occur to us before,

11     but we let you go now perhaps it has gone a bit too far to remain simple,

12     but when we are not dealing with protected witnesses, is there any

13     special reason in your mind why you would use 3DW, or whatever?  For

14     example, I mean ...

15             MR. BOURGON:  To make it shorter for the witness instead of

16     writing his name, writes a number.  But for us the names and numbers are

17     the same whether the witness is protected or not, the only thing that

18     changes is adding the letter P when it is a protected witness, and

19     Mr. Kostic is not a protected witness.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, I think we need to continue while we started

21     with this witness this way, we have to continue this way, but and for you

22     is it problematic?

23                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyway, think about it, Mr. Bourgon, we think it

25     would be more simple and straightforward if we just have the name.

Page 25998

 1             MR. BOURGON:  My mistake, Mr. President, I will get the witness

 2     to write his name.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's not a question of a mistake, believe me.

 4             MR. BOURGON:

 5        Q.   Well, Mr. Kostic, can you just above that number, can you write

 6     in block letters your name?

 7        A.   Fine.

 8        Q.   I know we can't do it now because the picture has been frozen so

 9     we'll leave it like this and move on to the next.  If I can have now

10     3D502 in e-court, please.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  For the counsel information, to be enough the

12     initials of the witness or the signature, there's no need for the witness

13     number.

14             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, madam registrar.

15        Q.   Sir, there's a new picture before you.  Do you recognise this

16     picture and can you tell us what it is?

17        A.   Yes.  This is the entrance to Standard.

18        Q.   Can you put a circle around the office where the military police

19     on duty at the gate was.

20        A.   [Marks] This is where they were.

21        Q.   And put the number 1 in this circle.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Can you also put a circle around the place where the lifting

24     barrier used to be.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 25999

 1        Q.   And put a number 2 in this circle.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   And also put a circle around the barrier that could be rolled out

 4     in front of the entrance of the Standard barracks.  And put a 3 in this

 5     circle.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   I would now ask you that you put the date and simply your

 8     initials at the bottom of this picture.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you, we won't be needing that picture anymore.  Sir, what

11     did the military policemen on duty at the gate do, what was their

12     function there?

13        A.   Their duty was to check who was leaving or entering the standard

14     barracks.

15        Q.   Did they check all the vehicles coming in or out -- or going out?

16        A.   Military vehicles leaving or entering the barracks were driven by

17     individuals who they were well familiar with since they would see them

18     there every day, and they didn't particularly check them.  Civilian

19     vehicles did not enter the barracks compound except for a commander or a

20     military officer who happened to drive a civilian vehicle, but then of

21     course they would not be checked.  Other civilian vehicles were not

22     entering the compound.

23        Q.   And can you tell us, sir, what was the procedure, if you

24     remember, for checking a civilian vehicle coming in to Standard barracks?

25     And I'm talking about a civilian vehicle with a civilian driver?

Page 26000

 1        A.   Well, if a civilian showed up at the reception area, he had to

 2     leave the vehicle by the entrance where there was a large parking-lot.

 3     He would then approach the gate and the police -- military policemen

 4     would ask for his ID and for -- and would ask him who he was going to see

 5     inside the barracks.  The military policeman would then write down his

 6     personal details from the ID and would make a telephone call, depending

 7     on who the individual was about to see, to check if that particular

 8     individual could be let through, and if so, he would then allow him to

 9     pass into the compound.

10        Q.   And once this procedure was over, and if the visitor was approved

11     to go in, how did that take place?

12        A.   The military policeman would escort him to the office where this

13     particular individual was meant to go.

14        Q.   How many military policemen were usually at the gate?

15        A.   Normally there were two.

16        Q.   Were they supposed to note the arrival time and departure time of

17     any visitors coming in?

18        A.   Yes.  They noted the ID number and the ID would be kept at the

19     reception area until such time as that individual returned on his way out

20     of the Standard barracks.

21        Q.   Sir, you mentioned that when it was a military vehicle driven by

22     a known driver, that they would not be checked or controlled, or that

23     they would be let in.  To your knowledge, from the time, if a civilian

24     vehicle came in, was it possible to miss a civilian coming in?

25        A.   No.  This particular gate was the only entrance into the Standard

Page 26001

 1     barracks.  Whoever wanted to enter the barracks, had to go through the

 2     reception area.

 3        Q.   What was the procedure when the visitor who had been allowed to

 4     go to the -- to somewhere inside the barracks, when the visitor left,

 5     what was the procedure?

 6        A.   When the visitor returned, the departure time would be noted, his

 7     ID returned and that's it.

 8        Q.   Sir, to your knowledge, would the military policeman on duty at

 9     the gate ever allow unknown visitors to walk freely into Standard

10     barracks?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Sir, if a visitor came in and wanted to see the commander of the

13     brigade, would the military policeman at the gate know whether the

14     commander was present or not in Standard?

15        A.   He probably would because the commander had a car.  Besides, if

16     the commander had to leave, then he would have left through the gate.

17     Otherwise, the operations duty officer would be the one to be asked if

18     anybody wanted to see the commander.

19        Q.   And you mentioned the car of the commander, was it parked in view

20     of the military policeman at the gate?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   If the commander had been away for some time, what would the

23     military policeman at the gate have to do to confirm whether the

24     commander is there or not?

25        A.   He would say that the commander was not there and would not grant

Page 26002

 1     access to the visitor.

 2        Q.   Maybe my question was not put properly.

 3             If the military policeman on duty at the gate for some reason did

 4     not know whether the commander was present or not in the barracks, what

 5     could he do in order to verify this information?

 6        A.   He would call the duty operations officer and ask him whether the

 7     commander was there and whether he could see the visitor.  I think that

 8     was the procedure at the time.

 9        Q.   Sir, just to clarify, you say I think that is the procedure.  Are

10     you sure or do you know whether this was the procedure?

11        A.   That's what the procedure was.

12        Q.   I'd like to focus your attention now to the year 1995, and more

13     particularly July 1995, a few days after the fall of Srebrenica.  Do you

14     recall this period in general?

15        A.   I do, yes.

16        Q.   Can you tell us what the Military Police Company was doing during

17     this period?

18        A.   The MP Company was in the field most of the time because the

19     Srebrenica Muslims were going through the area of responsibility of our

20     brigade.  They were in the field.  There were a few military policemen in

21     the barracks at Standard performing their regular duties.

22        Q.   What do you recall, sir, if anything, concerning Muslim prisoners

23     being driven by bus in the Zvornik area?

24        A.   I saw them pass by on the buses.  I saw Muslims on board those

25     buses.

Page 26003

 1        Q.   Can you describe what you saw, exactly; what you remember seeing?

 2        A.   I saw that there were civilians on those buses, men with their

 3     heads bent low.  They passed by Standard.

 4        Q.   Were there many buses that passed in front of Standard to your

 5     knowledge?

 6        A.   Quite a few buses, but I wasn't looking out on the road all the

 7     time.  I saw a few of the buses pass by.

 8        Q.   And what time was that, if you recall, sir, that the buses passed

 9     in front of the Standard barracks?

10        A.   I don't recall exactly.  I think it was around noon.

11        Q.   Do you remember, sir, the -- if I use this day that you see the

12     buses as a point of reference, do you remember f the members of the

13     military police Company who were at Standard, whether they were sent

14     anywhere the night before?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Where were they sent, to your knowledge?

17        A.   They were sent to Orahovac.

18        Q.   And who sent them there?

19        A.   Commander Jasikovac.  He arrived and said that the rest of the

20     military policemen that were at Standard should get ready to go to

21     Orahovac to secure the Muslim prisoners of war that were there.  He said

22     that they should all get ready to go and secure those prisoners.

23        Q.   Did you yourself go to Orahovac that night?

24        A.   No, I did not.  I got ready to go because he said everyone should

25     go.  After that in the course of the day, the UNPROFOR arrived at the

Page 26004

 1     Karakaj bridge.  I think it was just before it got dark.  They could not

 2     go across and somebody had to stay behind to provide security for

 3     UNPROFOR.  He told me to go to the bridge to provide security for those

 4     UNPROFOR members, therefore I didn't go to Orahovac.

 5        Q.   Sir, that night that the Military Police Company were given

 6     instructions and they left to go to Orahovac, and that they were given

 7     those instructions by Jasikovac, did you see Drago Nikolic at all in

 8     Standard barracks that night?

 9        A.   No, I did not.

10        Q.   Do you recall seeing Drago Nikolic earlier that day at all?

11        A.   I can't recall exactly.  I may have seen him but it was quite

12     sometime ago.

13        Q.   Sir, do you remember who was the military policemen on duty at

14     the gate that night?

15        A.   At the gate it was Jeremic, Nebojsa during that night.  I think

16     before him it was Milomir Simic I'm not 100 per cent sure of that, but I

17     think he preceded Jeremic.

18        Q.   And when, just to clarify, when the military policemen left for

19     Orahovac, did Jasikovac go with them?

20        A.   Yes, he did.

21        Q.   During the night that you spent at the Karakaj bridge, did

22     anything special happen that night?

23        A.   I was at the bridge the whole night until the next morning.  I

24     don't know what was happening elsewhere.

25        Q.   And what happened the next morning, sir, to you?

Page 26005

 1        A.   The next morning I returned to Standard.  I don't know exactly at

 2     what time.

 3        Q.   And who, if anyone, replaced you on the bridge at Karakaj?

 4        A.   I was replaced by Boro Nikolic, the chief's brother.

 5        Q.   Do you have a reason why it was Boro Nikolic who replaced you on

 6     the Karakaj bridge?

 7        A.   I don't know.  He just got there.  Otherwise, he and the other

 8     three military policemen were at the bridge to receive and see off

 9     UNPROFOR convoys with aid that were entering Bosnia from Serbia.  There

10     were four of them.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters apologise, we did not catch all

12     the names.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  In any case they were at the

14     bridge, and they would receive UNPROFOR shipments and check them.

15             MR. BOURGON:

16        Q.   Thank you, the interpreters says they did not understand the

17     names that you mentioned.  Can you say those names over again?

18        A.   Boro Nikolic, Milenko Marjanovic, Krsto Josic, and

19     Dragoje Ivanovic.

20        Q.   When you returned at Standard that morning, can you describe what

21     you saw?  What was the situation like?

22        A.   There was nothing special about it.  It was quiet, there were no

23     soldiers.

24        Q.   Were there many vehicles going in and out of Standard barracks on

25     that day?

Page 26006

 1        A.   No.  The traffic was regular just like any other day.

 2        Q.   And you say that there were no soldiers, who was left from the

 3     brigade on that day in Standard?

 4        A.   There were the mechanics of the logistics, those from the kitchen

 5     and the mess, the financial department, and a couple of administrators.

 6     It was myself and Nebojsa Jeremic who was another military policeman.

 7        Q.   Do you know a man by the name of Milic Duric?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Who was he?

10        A.   He was, I think -- I think he was a boss, a supervisor of the

11     mechanics who were there working at Standard.

12        Q.   Do you recall seeing him on that day?

13        A.   No, I don't.

14        Q.   Did you see Drago Nikolic on that day?

15        A.   I don't remember.

16        Q.   Do you recall seeing Bircakovic a driver of Drago Nikolic on that

17     day?

18        A.   No, I don't remember having seen him.

19        Q.   Did you see any officers who were not from the brigade but would

20     have been from the VRS arrive at Standard on that day?

21        A.   No, I didn't see anyone.

22        Q.   Did you see any civilian visitors at Standard on that day?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   If a civilian had arrived in a civilian car and dressed in

25     civilian clothes, would you have seen that civilian?

Page 26007

 1        A.   Yes, I would have.

 2        Q.   And would the person on duty at the gate, would that person have

 3     seen the civilian?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   What did you do at Standard that day?

 6        A.   Nothing much.  I was in the office going about my regular tasks.

 7     I was there doing nothing in particular.

 8        Q.   Sir, do you know how long Jeremic was on duty at the gate in that

 9     period?

10        A.   He was there for 24 hours.

11        Q.   What was a normal duration of the shift for the military

12     policemen on duty at the gate?

13        A.   A regular shift would be 12 hours, and there would be two

14     policemen in each shift.

15        Q.   And if you know, why did Jeremic was on duty at the gate for 24

16     hours then?

17        A.   Because there was no one else there.  He had to be there by

18     himself for 24 hours.

19        Q.   Did you know at the time who Vojislav Jekic was?

20        A.   I had heard of him, but I didn't know him.

21        Q.   Could you have recognised him at that time?

22        A.   I don't know that person.  I have never seen him.

23        Q.   Did you know at that period, and we are talking always mid-July

24     1995, did you know who Ratko Vidovic was?

25        A.   I had heard about him as well, but I didn't know who he was.

Page 26008

 1        Q.   Could you have recognised Ratko Vidovic at the time?

 2        A.   No, I could not have.

 3        Q.   If Ratko Vidovic visited Standard dressed in civilians, would the

 4     military policemen on duty at the gate control his identity, as you

 5     explained earlier?

 6        A.   Yes, they would have.  That was the procedure that would be

 7     applied to Ratko Vidovic and anyone else.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, sir, Mr. President, I think we can stop

 9     for the break.  After the break I have about 15 minutes no more and then

10     I can turn it over for cross-examination.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  We'll have a 25 minute

12     break.  Thank you.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

16             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Sir, when we left off before the break, I asked you a question

18     which was the following:  "If Ratko Vidovic visited Standard dressed in

19     civilians, would the military policeman on duty at the gate control his

20     identity as you explained earlier?"

21             Your answer was:  "Yes, they would have.  That was the procedure

22     that would be applied to Ratko Vidovic and anyone else."

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I would just like to get some clarification from you as to why is

25     it, to your knowledge, that the military policemen at the gate could not

Page 26009

 1     miss a civilian such as Ratko Vidovic or Vojislav Jerkic coming into the

 2     Standard barracks on that day?

 3        A.   The military policemen treated all civilians the same, whether

 4     they were called Ratko Vidovic or anything else.  The procedure was the

 5     same for all.  They would identify them, ask for an ID, ask them where

 6     they wanted to go and that's it.  There was no other procedure.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And the military policeman at the gate, did they have

 8     an opportunity to look into the cars that were coming in, or the vehicles

 9     that were coming in?

10        A.   Do you mean civilian or military vehicles.

11        Q.   Any vehicles?  Did they have an opportunity to look inside the

12     vehicle?

13        A.   There were no civilian vehicles entering the barracks.  Military

14     vehicles did, however.  There were military trucks operating for the

15     military driven by conscripts, but we were not checking those.  They were

16     on their regular duties and we knew most of them, most the drivers.  We

17     knew they were driving for the army.

18        Q.   And one final question on this issue, the barrier that was lifted

19     up or down to let vehicles in, do you know what use was made of it in

20     July 1995?  Was it ever left standing or was it always down, to your

21     knowledge?

22        A.   The barrier was always down.  Whoever approached the gate would

23     first be seen by the military policeman on duty.  If the vehicle

24     concerned is a military one, or if it was the commander, the barrier

25     would be lifted and as soon as the vehicle was in, it would be put down.

Page 26010

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 2             Do you know who replaced Jeremic as the military policeman on

 3     duty at the gate that night?  I'm talking now the day that you saw the

 4     buses.

 5        A.   I don't know.  Who replaced Jeremic or who it was that Jeremic

 6     replaced; I didn't understand.

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, I apologise, my question was not clear.

 8             The day that you saw the buses, you mentioned before that Jeremic

 9     was on duty for, I think you said, 24 hours.  Do you know when he left

10     his duty at the gate.

11        A.   I don't know exactly.  Probably the next day.  I don't remember

12     at all.  He was probably replaced by one of the military policemen who

13     came back from the field.

14        Q.   And that exactly leads into my next question, do you know when

15     the members of the Military Police Company who left for Orahovac, do you

16     know when they came back?

17        A.   I don't remember.

18        Q.   Do you recall the next morning, I'm talking now the day after you

19     saw the buses, do you remember if there was a lineup on that day, as you

20     describe earlier?

21        A.   I don't remember if there was a lineup.  In the course of those

22     few days, there were no lineups because there were no people present.

23     Everyone was in the field.  In extraordinary circumstances there are no

24     lineups.

25        Q.   And on that morning, again the day following the day you saw the

Page 26011

 1     buses, were there many people at the barracks the next morning?

 2        A.   There were soldiers.  I saw some.  There weren't all that many, I

 3     don't know how many exactly though.

 4        Q.   Do you recall when Commander Pandurevic returned from -- to the

 5     Standard barracks?

 6        A.   I don't recall.

 7        Q.   Do you recall on that day seeing soldiers who were not from

 8     Zvornik Brigade in Standard barracks?

 9        A.   There were soldiers that I didn't know.  I don't know where they

10     were from.

11        Q.   And do you recall whether you saw Drago Nikolic the next morning

12     at Standard?

13        A.   I don't recall really.

14        Q.   Sir, in the past two years, did you have the opportunity to meet

15     with investigators from the Office of the Prosecution?

16        A.   Yes, yes, I did.

17        Q.   Do you recall when that was?

18        A.   I think it was the 18th of January 2006.

19        Q.   Did you sign a statement then?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Do you recall if your meeting with the investigators of the

22     Prosecution was recorded?

23        A.   They told me that it was being recorded.

24        Q.   Do you recall if you were a suspect at that time?

25        A.   They told me that I was not a suspect, but that I was there as a

Page 26012

 1     witness.

 2        Q.   And do you recall the questions or what they wanted to know from

 3     you exactly?

 4        A.   They were asking me questions as from the beginning of the war,

 5     where I was, what I did and up to the moment when I arrived in the

 6     Military Police Company and onwards.  We spent most of the time talking

 7     about June 1995.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  July 1995 and

 9     Srebrenica.

10             MR. BOURGON:

11        Q.   Did you see a copy of your interview with the Prosecution?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   Did you have a chance to read it?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   And do you remember who provided you with a copy of that

16     interview?

17        A.   You did.

18        Q.   And do you still agree today with the answers you gave to the

19     Prosecution when you met with them?

20        A.   Well, yes, that's it more or less.  There were minor mistakes,

21     but that's it.

22        Q.   And do you recall if the investigators asked you any questions

23     about a duty roster?

24        A.   They did ask about that, in particular about July 1994 [sic] they

25     wanted to know about the roster of the military police.  They were

Page 26013

 1     particularly interested in whether any dates were deleted or erased.

 2        Q.   Just to bring a correction to the transcript, at line 15 where is

 3     says July 1994, did you say July 1995?

 4        A.   I meant to say 1995.  I may have said '94.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'd like now to show you a document which is the duty roster

 6     that was discussed during your interview with the Prosecution.  Do you

 7     recall if you saw the duty roster at that time?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, for e-court I'd like to have P354,

10     however, there is an original of this document which the Prosecution

11     brought to the courtroom today; and I think it would be better if we gave

12     the original to the witness and he can use the ELMO beside him to answer

13     the next few questions, with the consent of the Prosecution, of course.

14        Q.   Sir, I would like you to take a look at this document, and take a

15     few minutes to glance at the various pages, and then I will ask you a few

16     questions.  Take the time to look at it, and then I will ask you

17     questions.

18        A.   You can ask the question right away.

19        Q.   Sir, who completed this attendance roster for July of 1995?

20        A.   I did.

21        Q.   And did you complete a roster like this for every month?

22        A.   Yes, but not in the initial period while I was with the military

23     police.  I don't remember when exactly I started filling these in, maybe

24     it lasted for a year or two.  I don't know exactly.

25        Q.   And the writings on this document, are they in ink or what

Page 26014

 1     exactly are they -- were they written with?

 2        A.   I used a pencil.

 3        Q.   Is there any specific reason why you used a pencil to fill in

 4     this document?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you explain why you used a pencil?

 7        A.   I used a pencil so that when the daily order is read out in the

 8     morning, there can occur certain changes to it.  In this way, I make sure

 9     that if there is a change, an attack, an emergency, the entry can be

10     erased with a rubber and a new one made.  For instance, a man would go to

11     the "cepa" called the Karakaj bridge where he would be assigned, but in

12     the meantime there would occur an emergency and the man would have to go

13     elsewhere, in that event I would erase what was formerly written and then

14     make the new entry.  That was the sole reason why I used it.

15        Q.   And if we took a look at the duty roster for the other months,

16     are they also filled in with a pencil?

17        A.   Yes.  I wrote the first and last names in ballpoint pen and the

18     entered the dates in pencil so that they could be erased.  I would

19     normally make the roster on the evening before the relevant day, and if

20     in the course of that day changes occurred, I could easily make the

21     relevant corrections in pencil.

22        Q.   And, sir, who -- what was the purpose of having this attendance

23     roster?  Why did you make one out?

24        A.   Nobody told me to do that.  I did it because I thought that I

25     would have clear records kept in this way.  I maintained the records of

Page 26015

 1     the company members just that I once did when I was working in an office

 2     doing my regular job.  I knew that emergencies occurred where commanders

 3     would need to assign a number of military policemen to resolve a certain

 4     situation.  I knew that I was able to make corrections this way.

 5             So this was my initiative to do it this way in order to avoid

 6     having incorrect entries where a man would be set to be in one place

 7     whereas he actually had to be elsewhere.  That's why I made the roster.

 8     I normally made it on the evening before the eleventh day and then on the

 9     day I would report to Commander Jasikovac before the lineup.  He would

10     sign the daily order and then it would be implemented.  Where such a need

11     arose, an entry would be erased and rewritten.

12        Q.   And sir, when you made the changes, where did you get the

13     information that would lead you to make these changes?

14        A.   If the person was assigned to go out into the field, then I would

15     write as much.  If I knew the specific location the person was assigned

16     to, I would make an entry of it.  Let me give you an illustration.  In

17     that period of time when I knew that my brother went to the Baljkovica

18     region with his men, I wouldn't write Baljkovica; I would merely write

19     down out in the field since he was no longer in the barracks.

20        Q.   Sir, maybe my question was not precise.  How did you learn the

21     information in order to make changes?  Did anyone tell you or did you

22     find out by yourself?

23        A.   Nobody would tell me anything.  If somebody said that they were

24     going out into the field, I would make an entry in the field.  Nobody

25     told me to do that, I did it for my sake alone.

Page 26016

 1        Q.   And, sir, did you know whether the other companies or battalions

 2     in Zvornik Brigade used a similar form?

 3        A.   No, I didn't, no.  This individual Misko, I believe his last name

 4     was Vasic, I went to see him; and I consulted with him about this idea of

 5     mine about keeping a rostrum, a roster.  So I proceeded to use that

 6     format.  I don't know if he used that similar format or not.  I know that

 7     I used it for the purposes of the military police.

 8        Q.   And, sir, when you made changes to this form, or rather allow me

 9     to be more direct, did you ever make changes to these forms with the

10     intention of hiding information?

11        A.   No, I'm not concealing anything here.  I wrote everything as it

12     happened with a clear conscience.  There's nothing or no one for me to

13     hide there.

14        Q.   Do you recall when you met with the Prosecution investigators if

15     they asked you any specific questions about changes made to this form,

16     the one that you have in your hands?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And what questions were those?

19        A.   They asked me about Orahovac and Rocevic, for the most part.

20        Q.   And do you recall what they wanted to know and what your answers

21     were?

22        A.   I remember vaguely.  They wanted to hear from me that I had been

23     concealing or hiding matters, which isn't what I did.  I told them that

24     nobody had instructed me to keep the information the way I did, that it

25     was my idea and I did not have reason to hide anything.

Page 26017

 1        Q.   Do you recall if they drew your attention on this form to the

 2     columns for the 13th --  sorry, the 14th and 15th of July?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you remember any of the specific questions they asked you at

 5     that time concerning these two days?

 6        A.   They asked me questions about Orahovac, which is something that I

 7     corrected, and about Rocevic with Jasikovac.

 8        Q.   Do you recall any questions about the use of the letter "R" which

 9     would have been erased from these records?

10        A.   They told me they sent it for forensic examination and that they

11     uncovered a letter R beneath.  This is something I don't remember.  I

12     said at the time, and I do state today, that I have no idea about the

13     military police going down into Rocevic.  I have no idea where Jasikovac

14     was.  They said that he was down at Rocevic.  I guess you should ask him

15     that.  I don't know.  Jasikovac was the commander of the MP Company in

16     other words he was my commander as well, he wouldn't report to me upon

17     his return from the field that he went to such and such a place.  How

18     should I know, the commander never informs his soldiers about his

19     whereabouts, and things are done the other way around.

20        Q.   Sir, did you hear about any execution of prisoners taking place

21     in July 1995?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   When was that, sir?

24        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  I was told that it was on the

25     following day.  I forgot, it was a long time ago.

Page 26018

 1        Q.   And do you recall exactly what you heard about the topic of

 2     executions?

 3        A.   Not exactly.  I heard that Muslims had been liquidated at

 4     Orahovac, I heard that much.

 5        Q.   According to the rumours that you heard, who did those killings?

 6        A.   Nobody said anything about that.

 7        Q.   And did you hear any rumours about other places where executions

 8     might have taken place?

 9        A.   Not right away.  Later on, I don't know how much later though.

10        Q.   Can you give us a time estimate as to when or how long after?  Is

11     it weeks or months or more that you heard about executions in other

12     areas?

13        A.   I couldn't pinpoint the exact time.  I did hear about it, but I

14     can't tell you when, it was a long time ago, and let me tell you, I

15     didn't much like talking about it.

16        Q.   And, sir, today, do you know if executions really took place in

17     the Zvornik area back in 1995?

18        A.   Yes, I heard that from the media.

19        Q.   And just to come back, just to clarify, the first time you heard

20     about executions that might have taken place in areas other than

21     Orahovac, how did you come about to hear these rumours?

22        A.   Well, I don't know.  I can't remember exactly.  I heard of there

23     having been executions, but I don't remember the details.

24        Q.   Sir, how many times did you meet with members of the Defence team

25     of Drago Nikolic during the last two years?

Page 26019

 1        A.   Three to four times.

 2        Q.   Do you recall meeting with me?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you recall how many times we met?

 5        A.   Two to three times.

 6        Q.   Do you recall meeting with Mrs. Jelena Nikolic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   How many times, if you know?

 9        A.   Likewise, three to four times.

10        Q.   And did you meet with the investigators of the Defence team of

11     Drago Nikolic?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  I met with them in Zvornik I think it was Keselj and

13     another lady, I don't know her name.

14        Q.   And all these meetings, do you put them together at three or four

15     times or were there more than three or four times?

16        A.   Well, I spoke with Jelena three to four times and I spoke with

17     you two to three times, I'm not sure what you are getting at.

18        Q.   Maybe I'll be more precise.  When you met with me, for example,

19     were there other people, other members of the Defence team there present

20     with me?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did anyone from the Defence team of Drago Nikolic ask you to sign

23     a statement?

24        A.   A statement?  No, I didn't sign any statements.

25        Q.   And what kind of questions, if you recall, were the members of

Page 26020

 1     the Defence team of Drago Nikolic wanted to ask you?

 2        A.   Similar to the Prosecution, they wanted to know about the July of

 3     1995 and the reception area at the gate, and about the work of the

 4     military police force in general.

 5        Q.   Were you asked any questions about the roster by members of the

 6     Defence team of Drago Nikolic?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  They asked me about the roster as well.

 8        Q.   And did members of the Defence team of Drago Nikolic tell you

 9     about anyone who had testified in this case?

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. --

14             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President I think we need to move into private

15     session.

16             JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone please for His Honour.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move into private session before or after you

19     make your intervention, Mr. Thayer?

20             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we are going to need a redaction.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  So we are in private session in any case.  Already.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26021

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Sir, did any members of the Defence team of Drago Nikolic try to

14     influence your testimony in any way?

15        A.   No.

16             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have just one quick minute, Mr. President,

17     to check my notes.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you very much, sir.  I have no further

20     questions, Mr. President.  That will be it for the examination-in-chief.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic?

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No questions for this witness.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic?

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  No questions.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic?

Page 26022

 1             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No questions.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau?

 3             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] No questions.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse.

 5             MR. JOSSE:  Same.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa?

 7             MR. SARAPA:  Thank you, no questions.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I may just have a

10     moment to get the lectern.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. President.  And good morning to you and, Your

13     Honours.  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Mr. Kostic.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   For the record I'll introduce myself although we met in January

16     of 2006.  My name is Nelson Thayer.  I'll be asking you some questions on

17     behalf of the Prosecution today.

18             The first thing I'd like to do is show you a document and that is

19     65 ter 3742.  While we are waiting for the English to come up, sir, there

20     we go, you'll see that this is a phone directory for the Zvornik Brigade.

21     Can you see that, sir?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, if we could just quickly go to the, I think it's going to be

24     the third page of the B/C/S, there should be a blank page at the next

25     page of the B/C/S, it's the page following that.  Oh, no, okay, that's

Page 26023

 1     good.  Thank you.  Page 2 of the English, please.

 2             Do you see that document, sir, the second page?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And do you see the listing for the military police?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And we have your komandir's name, Mr. Jasikovac, your name, and

 7     the name of Nada Stojanovic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And to the right we see an exchange or an extension 116; what was

10     that, sir?

11        A.   That's the local extension.  We didn't have a direct telephone

12     number, we could be reached at the extension through the local

13     switchboard in the Standard barracks.

14        Q.   And I see that these three names are all listed to the left of

15     that 116, does that mean that any of the three of you could be reached at

16     that particular number, sir?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And just briefly would it be the same for the rest of these

19     listings where we have, for example, right below the military police we

20     have the listing for the lawyers, the legal service, both of them could

21     be reached at extension 117; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, we are done with that document.

24             Now, just previously, sir, you told us in 2006 in the interview,

25     and I'll just quote from page 90 of that, you said:

Page 26024

 1             "When I moved to the military police, my brother" and you

 2     mentioned him, Aco Kostic, your younger brother.

 3             You said:  "My brother was in the military police, and simply

 4     through him I managed not to go to the frontline."

 5             Sir, it's fair to say you wanted to get into the Military Police

 6     Company because you understandably preferred being there than to being in

 7     an infantry soldier manning a trench somewhere, is that fair to say?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   And it was only natural that your brother helped you out when he

10     could in that respect, is that also fair to say, sir?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   Now, let's move to this roster that we recently spoke about, or

13     that you recently testified about.  That's 65 ter 354.  And if we could

14     go to the next page, please.  And the next page.

15             Now, sir, you maintained this roster as part of your duties as

16     the Military Police Company administrative clerk; is that correct.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And it hardly needs mentioning, sir, but there are various

19     reasons why a unit such as yours needed to maintain such records, both

20     for internal purposes like you said, so that there would be a listing of

21     everybody's whereabouts, but wasn't it also necessary for the brigade to

22     know, for example, the financial services and reinforcement and personnel

23     organs to have an accurate accounting of your company strength and

24     capacities?

25        A.   Yes, I kept these records, but they were not handed over to

Page 26025

 1     supplement the personnel records.  Those other records, the personnel

 2     records were the ones used for monetary purposes or let's say for the

 3     payroll.  My roster had nothing to do with those payroll and other

 4     matters.

 5        Q.   Now, let's look at some of the symbols and abbreviation that you

 6     used in this document, and with madam usher's assistance, I'm going to

 7     give you the original again.

 8             Where we see a plus sign, sir, and if you could just go to the

 9     first page of the actual personnel listing that has your komandir,

10     Jasikovac's name, if you have that in front of you in the original,

11     that's what is on the screen.  The plus sign or a small cross, that mean

12     that is that individual was present in command at Standard; is that

13     correct.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And where we see SL, that is short for "slobodan" or free, the

16     person had leave?

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   And where we see an actual T as opposed to a plus sign or a

19     cross, that means "teren" or in the field or terrain?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, there are some other abbreviations that you used, namely

22     "TS," and that stood for terrain Srebrenica; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And "TZ" stood for terrain Zepa, is that also correct?

25        A.   It is correct.

Page 26026

 1        Q.   And is it also correct that you told us that where we see

 2     entries, for example, several TS's in a row, followed by a TZ, that meant

 3     that those MPs were providing security to the command in Zepa after they

 4     left Srebrenica?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   Now, if we could go to page, I believe it's 7 of the original.

 7     And, sir, I think in your version that's also going to be the seventh

 8     page.  I wanted to go one more, please.  Actually, if we could back up.

 9     There we go.

10             Do you see the page that at the top line is number 70, looks like

11     Zoran Marinkovic.

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Okay.  And if we go down a little ways, we don't need to scroll,

14     we can just look at it, we see one example of the TSs at line 81,

15     Dragan Stevic.  And a couple of more examples at lines 83 and 84, do you

16     see those, sir?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   That's what you just told us about, is that correct, those

19     examples of providing --

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   Sir, I'm not sure if you speak English, but we need to leave a

22     pause between my questions and your answers.  This is usually a problem

23     we have when people are speaking the same language although we are not,

24     but you just need to wait until the translators have a chance to catch

25     up, okay?  I see my friend standing.

Page 26027

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

 2             MR. BOURGON:  I just like my colleague to confirm whether he does

 3     or does not speak English.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, it may become useful.

 5             MR. THAYER:

 6        Q.   Sir, do you speak any English?

 7        A.   No, I don't.

 8        Q.   So we are just being psychic.  Okay.  Now, if we look at line

 9     85 -- or I'm sorry, I want to look at another abbreviation.  If we look

10     at line 82.  There's a row of Ps.  What does that stand for?  What do the

11     P stand for?

12        A.   It was Commander Pandurevic's cousin who was in his escort.  I

13     don't know whether he was with Pandurevic in Srebrenica and Zepa, but I

14     used a P for the word "pratnja," which is escort.

15        Q.   Okay.  There's also an abbreviation TN, and that stands for

16     terrain, Nisici; correct?

17        A.   That means terrain, Nisici, in the field, Nisici; two military

18     policemen, Jovanovic and Janisic went to Nisici every fortnight there

19     would be a rotation from Zvornik and in each shift one of them would be

20     there, they would be free for a fortnight and then they would spend the

21     next two weeks there, and they were kept on our files of the military

22     police.

23        Q.   And where is that, or what is in Nisici?

24        A.   Around Sarajevo, I think, I have never been there.  Our soldiers

25     were in charge of a part of the lines there.  I think they went there as

Page 26028

 1     security officers.  I was never there, therefore I can't tell you

 2     precisely where Nisici is.  They were not in the responsibility of the

 3     Zvornik Brigade, I think it falls within the AOR of the Sarajevo-Romanija

 4     Corps.

 5        Q.   Just two more abbreviations to help us out with, sir, we see a

 6     B/BO, what does that stand for?

 7        A.   BO, sick leave.  Bolovanje, the letter B in front is for

 8     "bolnica," hospital.  Those were wounded and hospitalized, meaning that

 9     they were in the hospital that day for a number of days, perhaps.  The

10     rest is sick leave while at home after having been wounded.

11        Q.   And we can see that up at line 79, correct, sir?

12        A.   Yes, 79, Dragan Asceric, he was on sick leave for five days.

13        Q.   If we see an NO abbreviation, what does that tell us if we are

14     looking at that roster?

15        A.   That means absent without leave.  An O mean that that person was

16     not present in the unit and had not obtained the proper leave.  This

17     stands for only one person, Miodrag.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter did not catch the last name.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  What was the last name Miodrag who?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Pavlovic.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  You're welcome.

23             MR. THAYER:

24        Q.   Just for the record he is at line 35 on a previous page, but

25     we'll just move on.

Page 26029

 1             Just one last question, sir, if you go to page 3 of the document,

 2     if we could go back to ERN 6610.  If you could just translate for us, if

 3     you look at line 6, Nebojsa Jeremic's line, if you go all the way to the

 4     right, can you tell us what "Radna Obaveza "is?

 5        A.   On the 26th of July 1995, Nebojsa Jeremic was dismissed from the

 6     unit and went to attend to his tasks pertaining to work obligation.  He

 7     was no longer a member of the MP unit as of the 26th of July.

 8        Q.   Just so we are clear on the record when you use the word

 9     "dismissed" that's not a pejorative term that's simply means he is

10     released from the MP company so he can satisfy his work obligations; is

11     that correct, sir?

12        A.   Yes, he was no longer with the army, he was a civilian who had

13     work duty.

14        Q.   Okay.  We are done with this document for now, sir.  If you could

15     just put it back in its sleeve and we'll put it to the side.  Thank you.

16             Sir, you testified in your evidence in chief that it was

17     Komandir Jasikovac who ordered that all the MPs who were still in the

18     barracks were to go to Orahovac and provide security for the Muslim

19     prisoners; correct?

20        A.   Yes, it is.

21        Q.   And Jasikovac left Standard with the MPs for Orahovac in some

22     kind of vehicle, right, whether you can remember what it was or not, they

23     drove there?  Correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, in your experience, sir, from whom would Jasikovac have

Page 26030

 1     received that order to take his men to Orahovac?

 2        A.   He didn't tell me who had issued him with that order.  He just

 3     told me that we should be ready to take our weapons and to go to provide

 4     security for some POWs.

 5        Q.   I understand that, sir, but my question was, in your experience

 6     from whom would Jasikovac have received that order to take his men to

 7     Orahovac?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly.

 9        Q.   Well, you testified in your evidence in chief about the process

10     by which the daily taskings would flow from the brigade commander's daily

11     briefing to the security chief Drago Nikolic, and then to your

12     Komandir Jasikovac and then down to the Military Police Company.

13             In your experience, was there anyone else in that chain or was in

14     your experience those individuals that you talked about the people that

15     were responsible for the ultimate tasks and orders that the members of

16     the Military Police Company received?

17        A.   As I said, Drago Nikolic issued him orders in peacetime when

18     there were no -- rather when there were no extraordinary events and he

19     would pass those down after the briefing.  As for Jasikovac and who

20     issued him orders, I don't know.

21        Q.   Well, sir, I understood your testimony in your evidence in chief

22     to be pertaining to the 1995, in particular, the events of July 1995.  So

23     we are not talking about peacetime, sir, we are talking about July of

24     1995.

25             The tasks that the Military Police Company received, in your

Page 26031

 1     experience, would come from Drago Nikolic to Lieutenant Jasikovac;

 2     correct.

 3        A.   I was talking about quiet times when there were no activities

 4     such as those on the 14th and the 15th of July.  The commander was not at

 5     Standard.  During quiet periods, Jasikovac received his orders from

 6     Drago.  As for this period, I don't know who was ordering what to whom.

 7     I just know he told us to get ready to go and secure POWs.  That's all I

 8     know.

 9        Q.   Did Drago Nikolic have anyone that was assisting him in his role

10     as the security chief of the brigade?

11        A.   I don't know.  I think Milorad Trbic shared his office with him.

12     I don't know whether there was anyone else.

13        Q.   Well, during what you described as these quiet days at the

14     brigade following the fall of the Srebrenica enclave, sir, was

15     Milorad Trbic around?

16        A.   I don't remember.  I didn't see him.  I don't know.

17        Q.   Now, you spoke about two of the lawyers, Goran Bogdanovic and

18     Cedo Jovic in your examination-in-chief.

19        A.   Cedo Jovic.

20        Q.   Yes, forgive me for my pronunciation.  When they returned from

21     Orahovac, one of them told you that they no longer had their rifles.  Do

22     you remember that?

23        A.   I do.  I remember that they reported to me, that they no longer

24     had had rifles with them.  I don't know whether they had lost them or

25     someone had taken them from them.  What I do know is that they came back

Page 26032

 1     without rifles, the rifles having been left in Orahovac.

 2        Q.   Now, in your interview with the OTP, you were asked the following

 3     question, and this is at page 75:

 4             "Question:  Did you speak with Cedo and Bogdanovic what was going

 5     on in Orahovac?

 6             And your answer was:  "They don't like to speak about it."

 7             And you were asked:  "Did you hear what happened in Orahovac?"

 8             And your answer was:  "Everybody knows, everybody knows that they

 9     executed these people there.  That's not an issue."

10             You were asked:  "When did you find out people were executed

11     there?

12             You said, "When?"

13             The investigator said, "Yeah."

14             You said, "After the execution.  After that."

15             You were asked, "How long after that?"

16             And you said, "I don't know, probably the same evening that was

17     then said, but I don't know who said it."  And then later on, you said:

18             "These people who were there probably Goran and Cedo told me.

19     They were telling about it but they were not there but they heard what

20     was happening."

21             Do you stand by those answers that you gave in 2006 to us, sir?

22        A.   Yes, that's it.  I don't know, I didn't hear, I don't know

23     whether they told me that or someone else.  It was a long time ago.  I

24     don't know whether if they told me that upon their return when they

25     reported their missing rifles.  I don't remember what they were

Page 26033

 1     discussing, but more or less this is it.

 2        Q.   Now, at the time that Lieutenant Jasikovac ordered the MPs to go

 3     to Orahovac, what was your understanding was going to happen to the

 4     people being guarded there?

 5        A.   We didn't have -- he told us that we were there to secure the

 6     POWs, that was the understanding, and that's when the MPs went there.

 7        Q.   My question, sir, was what was your understanding of what was

 8     going to happen to the prisoners that were being guarded in Orahovac?

 9        A.   How could I have understood that?  I don't know.  Securing them,

10     what they were going to do with them, I don't know.  How could I

11     understand?

12        Q.   Well, to your knowledge did any of your fellow MPs at the time

13     tell you what they understood the -- what was going to happen with

14     respect to those Muslim prisoners in Orahovac, even if you didn't have an

15     understanding yourself, did you hear from any of the MPs before they went

16     out what their understanding was of what was going to happen with those

17     prisoners?

18        A.   No one was talking about it.  The military policemen got ready

19     and went in the field to Orahovac.  Nobody talked about it.

20        Q.   Okay, sir, let me just share with you some of the questions and

21     answers from your interview back in 2006.  I'm going to read to you some

22     of those questions and answers and then just put a question to you, okay?

23     So just bear with me while I read some of this.

24             You told us that people started to prepare to go to Orahovac and

25     nobody was willing to go.  This is at pages 64 --

Page 26034

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 2             MR. THAYER:

 3        Q.   Page 65.

 4             And the question was put to you:  "How do you know people weren't

 5     willing to go?"

 6             And your answer was:  "One could see, one could see on their

 7     faces and for me it was an extremely great pleasure to hear that I should

 8     not go."  And you were also asked the following question:

 9             "Question:  Why didn't you go to Orahovac?"

10             And your answer was:  "I don't know, I don't know, it was my

11     fortune."

12             "Question:  But who decided that you should stay in the brigade?"

13             And your answer was:  "The commander told me to stay.  I couldn't

14     decide.  I was depending on the orders, but if he told me that I should

15     go, with hard feeling in my heart, I would have to go.  Let me tell you

16     one more time, people knew me, and if they asked me to assist them in

17     some way and I could not help them, of course I would feel bad.  So at

18     least I don't have a guilt conscience because of that -- guilty

19     conscience because of that.  And that's why I sleep peacefully today

20     because I didn't take part in anything, and I didn't even see deaths,

21     which is important to me."

22             Now, you told us earlier about seeing the buses with the men and

23     their heads bowed.  And you also made a point of volunteering to us the

24     following information in your interview:  I quote, and this is at page

25     46:

Page 26035

 1             "Before the war I played football in the Drina and people --

 2     people knew me from Zvornik; and I didn't want to get close to them

 3     because they might have asked me to help them, so I knew that I could not

 4     help them much, so I tried to be away."

 5             And the question was put to you:  "You were speaking about the

 6     people from the bus, the Muslim people from the buses?"

 7             And your answer was:  "I did not want them to ask me anything

 8     because I knew that I could not help them."

 9             Sir, you've indicated to us that you don't know what the plan was

10     for these prisoners.  Why are you talking about being so happy about not

11     being sent there, about not seeing deaths, about not having a guilty

12     conscience and being so powerless to help them that you wanted to avoid

13     contact with them?

14        A.   Well, as I said, no one knew of the liquidations.  When we were

15     told to go to provide security, nobody was talking about it and it had

16     nothing to do with the liquidations.  I'm speaking of myself when I say

17     that I was glad not to go.  One doesn't feel comfortable if you are, for

18     example, recognised and then they say Stevo help us, and at that point I

19     could not help them at all.  That's why I said that.  I see nothing bad

20     about having said that.  I'm glad for not being up there.  I didn't know

21     what was going to take place, nobody did, we were there to provide

22     security.  There were people there, they could have asked for help and I

23     was nothing but a private.  We were only providing security nothing more.

24     Nothing that I have to add to that.

25             And I can tell you this, people went knowing that they were going

Page 26036

 1     up there to provide security.  It's something that may require spending

 2     your whole night there, that's why people were not happy to go.  Nobody

 3     was talking about any killings, only about providing security.  That's

 4     it.

 5        Q.   During this period of time did you ever hear that these prisoners

 6     were going to be exchanged?

 7        A.   No one was talking about anything of the sort.

 8        Q.   During this period of time, sir, that you described as being a

 9     quiet one in the brigade, you know that there was this column of

10     thousands and thousands of Muslim men and boys that was breaking through

11     to free territory right in the rear of the Zvornik Brigade, passing just

12     to the west of Zvornik itself; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And that's why the barracks were so deserted during this period

15     of time; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And soldiers were being sent everywhere from Snagovo and Miricici

18     all the way up to Baljkovica, right?

19        A.   To Baljkovica, yes, that is correct.  I don't know exactly where

20     they were, but they were in the field.

21        Q.   And they were in the brigade trying to send basically every last

22     person they could afford to send into the field; right?

23        A.   Well, I don't know.  I know that the military police force went

24     out into the field.  I don't know about others, where they went.

25        Q.   I mean, that's why they had to send lawyers to guard prisoners

Page 26037

 1     and a lawyer to stand at the gate; right?

 2        A.   Well, yes, that's true as far as the military policemen are

 3     concerned because the entire force was engaged in the field.

 4        Q.   And was there anything that you are aware of that would have

 5     prevented you from being sent to Snagovo or Baljkovica?

 6             Or any other place that was facing active combat?

 7        A.   How should I know?  I stayed behind at Standard.  When a lawyer

 8     was asking me about it, I said that I went into the field myself as the

 9     need arose.  When the frontline was attacked.  At that time, though, I

10     didn't go.

11        Q.   Sir, you described how relieved you were that you didn't have to

12     go to Orahovac, that's a fair description; right?  You were actually more

13     than relieved that you didn't have to go to Orahovac for the reasons that

14     I read out to you that you told us in your interview, right?

15        A.   Well, I said that I was glad not to have gone there.  Why?  Well,

16     because people there may have known me, been my acquaintances or perhaps

17     not.  That was the reason why I said that.

18        Q.   Well, you told us in your interview that during this period of

19     time you were basically trying to stay out of sight at Standard because

20     the more somebody might see you, the greater the chance was that --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

22             MR. BOURGON:  Reference please, from the interview.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

24             MR. THAYER:  I can provide that in a moment, but if I can move

25     on.  I can tell you it's in the interview.

Page 26038

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon is not very happy with that.

 2             MR. BOURGON:  I just like if he is going to put a question, say

 3     something to the witness.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, it arose actually during the course

 6     of the colloquy with the witness so--

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are wasting more time discussing this.  If you

 8     could look up the reference, please.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Then, if you give me a moment, Mr. President, I'll

10     consult --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Can I tell you something about

13     this?

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  When I said that, namely that I

16     didn't like much to mill about the Standard compound, I didn't mean to

17     say that I was hiding.  I couldn't have been hiding.  I was mobilised, I

18     was there.  You said that I was hiding.  I may have stated something

19     similar, but this isn't what I meant.  I was in the Standard barracks and

20     I didn't have reason to hide.

21             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, given the answer, may I move on?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, by all means, go ahead.

23             MR. THAYER:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Sir, would you have rather gone to guard prisoners at Orahovac or

25     gone to Baljkovica at the time?

Page 26039

 1        A.   Well, I don't know.  I wouldn't have liked to have gone anyway

 2     because in Baljkovica you could see for yourself the list how many

 3     wounded and how many were killed, including my brother, Dragan.

 4        Q.   That is exactly right, sir, those Muslims had guns that were

 5     firing in Baljkovica, those in Orahovac did not; correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   And just for the record, Mr. President, the cite is page 79 of

 8     the interview, line 11:

 9             "The best was not to go out much because I was not on the

10     frontline, and if I go much out somebody can notice that and sent me so

11     it was the best to be in the office, in a way hide."  That's from lines 8

12     to 12.

13             Do you remember saying that, sir?

14        A.   Something along those lines.  I'm not sure if that's exactly it.

15        Q.   All right.  Now, let's return to the attendance roster.  If we

16     could have 65 ter 354, please.

17             You told us during your interview that and I quote at page 83:

18             "I was writing the names who was free, or who was available.

19     That's what I was doing.  That is what I was doing according to the order

20     of the commander of the company."

21             And later again at page 88, you told us:

22             "I was entering things that was in accordance with Jasikovac

23     entering, and nobody else was ordering me anything.  Only Jasikovac."

24             Do you recall those answers, sir?

25        A.   As far as the lists go, I wrote them.  I said that, and let me

Page 26040

 1     repeat, it is so happened that in the course of the day an emergency

 2     would arise, somebody had to go somewhere, and the list had to make a

 3     correct entry of how many policemen were in the barracks and how many

 4     were outside.  This was something that I could not know or ascertain

 5     right away from the records that were otherwise kept.  That's why I had

 6     my own records.  I may have shown them to Jasikovac as well, it was a

 7     long time ago.  I don't recall how exactly these things worked.

 8        Q.   Well, you testified in your evidence in chief about the daily

 9     lineup and the reading out of the daily tasks.  I think you told us, and

10     this has been confirmed by other MPs, that you would be the one who would

11     be reading out where individual MPs would be tasked or where they would

12     be located on a given day, and that was in the morning; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And where did you receive the information that you would be

15     entering on to this roster and then reading out during the morning

16     muster?

17        A.   I drafted the roster in the office every evening for the

18     following day.  The roster stated who should be doing what and where.  I

19     had the approval of the commander of the Military Police Company to do

20     that, he would have a look at it, sign it, and then I would read it out

21     in the morning.  When I was drafting them in the evening, I would enter

22     the various tasks on the expected dates in pencil so that I could readily

23     change whatever needed to be possibly changed.  I would get a signature

24     from the commander and would then proceed to read out what was on the

25     list.  There was no other method of work than this one.

Page 26041

 1        Q.   Simple question, sir.  That information that you would enter

 2     about where people were tasked came from Jasikovac; correct?

 3        A.   I wrote that.  He only checked what I wrote and said if he agreed

 4     or not.  I was the one who kept track of the whereabouts of the members

 5     of the MP company, and I made sure that they rotated doing the various

 6     tasks so that not always the same person would be doing the same thing.

 7     He was the one who signed these daily orders, and then I read them out in

 8     the morning.  I was producing those on my own.  Nobody was telling me

 9     anything.

10        Q.   Right.  But, sir, your testimony is not that you were the one who

11     is making up the assignments, sending people to terrain Zepa or terrain

12     Srebrenica or Orahovac; right?  You are not the one who is originating

13     those orders?

14        A.   That's right.  What I'm telling you, though, is that I was doing

15     that too in peacetime whenever there were no combat activities and when

16     there were no daily orders to be given, it was only in those moments of

17     quiet that such daily orders would be made.  Whenever somebody had to go

18     out into the field of the MP company, then I would bring a list to

19     Jasikovac, and he would be the one picking and choosing those who would

20     have to go and do that particular task in the field.  But as for the

21     daily orders, I was the one drafting them.

22        Q.   And, sir, we will again look at that roster and I'll ask you some

23     specific questions about who gave you orders about certain destinations.

24             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think we are coming up to the break

25     I'm being told that we may have a couple of minutes left.

Page 26042

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We'll have the break now and we'll

 2     continue later.  25 minutes, please.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Good afternoon again, Mr. Kostic.

 8        A.   Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   You told us in your interview that the log that we've been

10     talking about was the official duty roster or attendance log for the

11     company; there was nothing else, that was it what we've been looking at

12     and talking about, and that's at page 84.  Do you agree with that?

13        A.   The attendance in the unit, yes.  As for the other documents, for

14     the unit they were kept by the military policemen, that was the so-called

15     VOB 8 list.  In other words, this wasn't the only list kept by the

16     military police force, there were others.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, when you refer to the VOB 8 list, what are you

18     referring to, sir?

19        A.   It's a large book containing all the information.  The person's

20     name, father's name, date of mobilisation, date of entry on duty in the

21     military police force.  This was kept by the personnel service.  I don't

22     know what else I can tell you.

23        Q.   Right.  But can you confirm what you told us in 2006, sir, that

24     the log we have been talking about that you've been looking at is the

25     only official attendance duty log for the Military Police Company?

Page 26043

 1        A.   Well, yes.  This was something that I kept as part of the daily

 2     order, and I had records of my own.

 3        Q.   Now, you admitted to us in your interview, sir, that you alone

 4     were responsible for the erasures on the log, erasing those entries and

 5     replacing them with different ones; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  Can I have a reference in the interview, please.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

10             MR. THAYER:  Sure.  Page 68, for example.

11        Q.   Now, sir, you specifically admitted originally writing "O" for

12     Orahovac for certain MPs on certain days and then erasing the "O" and

13     replacing it with a "T" for terrain; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you haven't changed your story about that, as you sit here

16     today; correct?  You stand by that?

17        A.   Yes, I did that.  I wrote that.  There's no problem in that.

18        Q.   And you also told us in 2006 that you didn't know what the Rs

19     referred to which were erased; correct?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

21             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If my colleague is going

22     to use the interview, he should quote from the interview so the witness

23     knows exactly what are the words that he used, and it would be much

24     better for the witness so that he knows what he said then, and then he

25     can comment on it; thank you, Mr. President.

Page 26044

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think it is much better if you adopted what

 2     Mr. Bourgon is suggesting.  I mean, after all, we've had such instances

 3     before and this is the preferred way of dealing with witnesses.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I'll be happy to do that and if I may

 5     continue my questioning along these lines; and I will refer to that

 6     shortly, and I will put these specific questions and answers to the

 7     witness.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 9             MR. THAYER:

10        Q.   Sir, it's your testimony today, is it not, that you didn't know

11     then and you don't know now what the erased Rs referred to?

12        A.   Yes.  I still claim that today.  I don't know anything about an

13     R, anything of the sort.

14        Q.   Do you have any knowledge, sir, about Zvornik Brigade MPs being

15     sent to Rocevic?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   And just to be clear, that would include knowledge that you may

18     have had at the time, up and to the time you are sitting today, is it

19     your testimony that even today you have no information whatsoever about

20     Zvornik Brigade MP Company soldiers going to the Rocevic School?

21        A.   I don't know anything about that.

22        Q.   Now, during your interview you stressed that this roster was

23     something that you kept for your own personal use.  Today you said it was

24     "my initiative," I think is how you referred to it.  And if we are

25     looking for cites, I can say at page 16 you said:

Page 26045

 1             "I was filling in this list just for myself."

 2             At page 20, "this is something I was filling out without

 3     anybody's order, I did it for myself."  Same page "nobody ordered me to

 4     do so.  This is something that I myself did."

 5             Page 55, "I was maintaining this list for myself just if someone

 6     asks in the future."

 7             Page 56 "I was maintaining it more for myself?"

 8             Page 57 "I myself did it.  Nobody told me to do it."

 9             Now, sir, during this interview given your insistence which

10     you've echoed today that you had just sort of done this on your own, I

11     asked you a specific question, I said:

12             "This form existed before you came to the company, is that

13     correct."

14             And your answer was, "No, that's not correct."

15             And then I asked you, "So you are telling us that you designed

16     this entire form?"

17             And you told us then, and I believe that's what you told us

18     today, and this is at page 57 that, "A man drew it on a computer for me

19     and I just later filled it in.  Nobody else in the barracks maintained it

20     that way."  And I think what you said today was, you identified a Misko

21     possibly last name Vasic and you went to see him and you said:

22             "I consulted with him about this idea of mine, about keeping a

23     rostrum, a roster."

24             And that was in answer to the question, "Did you know whether the

25     other companies or battalions in the Zvornik Brigade used a similar

Page 26046

 1     form?"  And your answer was, "No, I didn't know."

 2             I want to show you a couple of documents and with madam usher's

 3     assistance --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, was there a question with that,

 6     or ...

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think the question is coming.

 8             MR. THAYER:  I think it's obvious, Mr. President, the question is

 9     on its way.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think it's coming.  Yes, go ahead.

11             MR. THAYER:  To save some time, Mr. President, and I'll make it a

12     little easier, I'm just asking we put these on the ELMO, I don't think

13     technically we can do what I want to do on e-court.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll put them on the ELMO.  No problem with us.

15             MR. THAYER:

16        Q.   Now, at the top we have 65 ter 354, which we've been looking at.

17     In the upper right-hand corner you can see this is the military police

18     log that we've been looking at.  And the second document for the record

19     is the Zvornik Brigade engineering company attendance roster for July

20     1995.  Do you see that, sir?  This is 65 ter 2851 for the record.  In the

21     upper right-hand corner, do you see where it says "engineering company"?

22        A.   Yes, yes, I do.

23        Q.   These are identical forms, are they not?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, I'd just like to show you 65 ter 3726.  With madam usher's

Page 26047

 1     help.  That is the logistics -- please, just replace.  We see we have an

 2     identical form, do we not, being used by the logistics organ, also for

 3     July 1995?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 5        Q.   I'm going to show you the first battalion signal squad attendance

 6     roster for the month of July.  That's 65 ter 3760.  Same form, right,

 7     sir?  We need an audible answer, it's the same form, right, sir?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, I can see that.  I don't know -- I told you that I kept

 9     these records.  I had no idea of them having it as well.  Perhaps Misko

10     did it for them as well, but it doesn't really matter if they did, I can

11     see now that they did have the same form, but what difference does it

12     make?  What has it got to do with it?  When he produced this for me on

13     the computer, I didn't know he had other forms like that.  Perhaps he

14     made others for them after he had done some for me.  I don't know.

15        Q.   So, sir, this form, as you can see wasn't something that you

16     alone were just using for your own purposes.  Every unit, and I can go

17     through all eight battalions and pull out battalion logs and squad logs

18     that all use the same form.  Everybody had to use this same form because

19     it was a critical way of accounting for the whereabouts and capacities of

20     the units; isn't that correct, sir?

21        A.   Well, I have nothing to do with their forms.  I didn't know that

22     they kept these records.  I knew -- I know that I did.  I don't know when

23     they started keeping records.  They used a ballpoint pen I can see,

24     whereas I used a pencil.  I really wasn't aware of the other units

25     keeping these records.  Perhaps they obtained the same forms from Misko

Page 26048

 1     or perhaps they took the same forms that I used.  I wasn't told by anyone

 2     of them using them.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, is it your testimony as somebody that has spent as much

 4     time as you did as the administrative clerk for the Military Police

 5     Company that you can't tell the Trial Chamber why these forms were

 6     important to all these other battalions and units maintaining these

 7     rosters?

 8        A.   I don't know why they kept them.  I know why I did.

 9        Q.   And it's your testimony that all these other units on their own

10     just got the initiative that you say you had to get these forms made up

11     and used them for exactly the same purposes?  That's your testimony?

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon.

13             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, the same question was asked and

14     answered a number of times and this is not what the witness said.  If he

15     wants to ask him this as a question, that's fine.  But not to say that

16     this is what you said today.  I mean, we've been labouring this point now

17     over and over again, I let my colleague work, but I think it's quite

18     clear what the witness knows and doesn't know about this form.

19             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the question is a simple one and it's

20     clear I think the witness is capable of answering it.  It's my last

21     question on the topic and I just want to see if we can get an answer.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  For me it is an irrelevant

24     question.  I really don't know what the others kept.  I know why I kept

25     these forms.

Page 26049

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move to your next question, Mr. Thayer,

 2     please.

 3             MR. THAYER:

 4        Q.   Now, I want to remind you, sir, of some of the different answers

 5     and explanations you gave to us during your interview in 2006 when we

 6     asked you about alterations.

 7        A.   Go ahead.

 8        Q.   I'm going to read you some passages, it might take a few moments,

 9     but I'll have some questions for you when I'm done putting the actual

10     questions to you.

11             You were asked at page 53:

12             "Question:  But tell me why did you erase the letter O and put in

13     T?"

14             And your answer was:

15             "Answer:  Believe me, I don't remember."  Follow up question was

16     put:

17             "Question:  But Mr. Stevo, it doesn't make sense the letter O and

18     then put the letter T.  Why did you change the duty roster ?"

19             And your answer was:

20             "Answer:  I don't know; believe me I don't know why I was doing

21     it."  That's at page 54.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

23             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President, if my colleague is going

24     to cite from the interview, he should read the complete questions and

25     answers and not just part of them, now he is jumping the beginning of the

Page 26050

 1     question, the beginning of the answer, the beginning of the question and

 2     beginning of the answer; he should read the whole text and ask the

 3     witness to confirm one question at a time and not in a box session.

 4     Thank you Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let him proceed the way he chooses and then if it's

 6     necessary to intervene, we will intervene, or else you can raise the

 7     issue on redirect.  I think it's better we have to respect the fact

 8     that -- yes?

 9             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, I will try to explain maybe better

10     what the issue I have with this.  In this part, my colleague said he read

11     the question:  "But tell me why did you erase the letter O and put T?"

12     Then he read the witness's answer, "Believe me I don't remember."  Then

13     he jumped to the next question omitting the fact that the witness gave an

14     explanation, "As you see all these people were on T, terrain, but not all

15     of them were in Orahovac that day."  If he jumps --

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop, stop.

17             MR. BOURGON:  It's not fair to the witness.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop, stop, you can deal with this on

19     redirect if you want, Mr. Bourgon.  But otherwise please don't interfere

20     with the way he is conducting his cross-examination unless we tell we

21     allow you to do so.  Mr. Thayer, you may proceed.

22             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Sir, your answer to the question, I'll just repeat the question:

24             "Question:  Why did you changes duty roster?"

25             Your answer was:

Page 26051

 1             "Answer:  I don't know.  Believe me, I don't know why I was doing

 2     it."

 3             That's at page 54.  You were asked a follow-up question:

 4             "Question:  And the same of letter R?"

 5             And you answer:

 6             "Answer:  The letter R was not written definitely because I don't

 7     know what would the letter R mean."

 8             And it was put to you in the next question, "It means Rocevic."

 9             And you answered:

10             "Answer:  I guarantee you no police officers were in Rocevic on

11     that day."

12             Then you go on to say:  "But I don't know who was there, maybe

13     they were sent from somewhere else but from the barracks they didn't go

14     to Rocevic."  Again that's on page 54.

15             You deny writing in the letter R and erasing it and you say:

16             "It is possible that they were sent from Orahovac, but I don't

17     know about it.  I just know for that Orahovac."

18             That's at page 55.  Then you go on to say "For me, all the people

19     who were not in the barracks were in the field.  Why did I do it?  I

20     don't know.  I don't have a reason to do it.  If I wanted to do it, I

21     would rip the paper off.  I do not hide it."  That was at page 55.

22             You were asked again later, this is at page 78:

23             "Question:  Do you recall why did you alter these records?"  And

24     your answer was:

25             "Answer:  I don't know.  I really did not have any intentions to

Page 26052

 1     hide anybody.  People you were changing their assignment and that's why

 2     sometimes things were erased and things were entered."

 3             And then in another series you give the following explanations,

 4     this is at page 84 the question was put to you, sir:

 5             "Question:  So you are telling us that you originally wrote O for

 6     the people you told us about before who had gone up to Orahovac?"

 7             And your answer was:

 8             "Answer:  I wrote down everything.  I did not think, I was just

 9     listening what my commander was saying.  I wasn't commander.  I was the

10     only one who was writing everything on this page."

11             On page 86 again you say:  "If I wanted to hide somebody, I would

12     just throw this paper away or rip it off or somehow destroy it."

13             And then you were asked again:

14             "Question:  We'd like to ask you again why you erase the letters

15     on this log?"

16             And your answer:

17             "Answer:  I really don't know what to tell you.  I was writing

18     the letters, and I don't know what happened to me that I erase it and I

19     put a new letter.  All of them went to the terrain, so I don't know.  I

20     don't have a clue."  And that's at page 89.

21             You were asked:

22             "Question:  Do you remember when you made the changes?"  That's

23     at page 89 again.

24             You were answer was:

25             "Answer:  Immediately when it happened.  Immediately when it

Page 26053

 1     happened.  If they told me it was a change or something I immediately

 2     erase things, and I put for terrain or something else."

 3             Now, sir, you've had an opportunity to look at the log.  You've

 4     seen the Os that have been erased and you have seen the Rs that have been

 5     erased, right?

 6             We know that from looking at the document, tell me if you

 7     disagree.  For Jasikovac on 14 July the O was changed to a T, and on the

 8     15 July the R was changed to a T.  For Nada Stojanovic, on 14 July, the O

 9     was changed to a T.  Under Goran Bogdanovic, 14 July, the O was changed

10     to a T.  Cero Jovic, 14 July, the O was changed to a T.  Under

11     Dragoje Ivanovic, 14 July, the O was changed to a T.  And on the 15th

12     July, the R was changed to a T.  Under Predrag Ristic, 14 July, you

13     changed the O to a T; and on the 15th July, the R is erased and replaced

14     with a T.  Zelko Stevanovic, 14 July, the O is changed to a T.  And under

15     Milomir Simic, 14 July, O changed to a T; 15 July, R change today a T.

16     Stanoje Bircakovic, 14 July, O changed to a T; 15 July, R changed to a T.

17     Sladan Jokic, 14 July, O changed to a T; and 15 July, changed to a T.

18             Now, sir when you went through this log, sir, you remembered that

19     certain of these people actually went to Orahovac; correct.

20        A.   You've put many questions to me, I hope I'll remember all of them

21     to answer them.  The answers I've been giving to you two years ago when

22     you've been just reading out is something I'm agree with and this is

23     something I'll repeat now.  Whenever Jasikovac said that the place to go

24     to was to be Orahovac, I don't remember today, I only recall Bogdanovic

25     Goran, Nada Stojanovic, Jasikovac.  I remember for a fact, that they did

Page 26054

 1     go there; for the others I have no idea, when I look at the list of the

 2     military police that is when I realise they were up there.  And let me

 3     tell you this as well, our soldiers who were out in the field and for

 4     whom I had a rough idea of where they were, I would make an entry T,

 5     terrain or out in the field, simply to make a note of the fact that they

 6     were not at the Standard barracks, that's why I wrote that.

 7             I didn't have a single reason to hide anything, and I repeat I

 8     didn't have any idea of anyone going to Rocevic.  If they did go there,

 9     then they must have gone there from Orahovac.  To me, they were out in

10     the field, that's what I knew.  I don't know how it is that I can assure

11     you that this is the truth other than tell you that I swore to tell the

12     truth and nothing but the truth and I'm telling the truth.  I would have

13     been telling you the truth even though I had not taken an oath.

14             It is not a contested matter any more.  Everybody knows now who

15     it is who was at Orahovac, they were there and that's a one hundred

16     percent certainty.  But to hint that I am hiding anything or cover up

17     anything, no.  The fact is that the names you read out must have been

18     there though when I think back about that time, I know about the four

19     individuals having gone to Orahovac and for others I'm not too sure.

20     When you gave me the list in Zvornik it was only at that point when I was

21     able to consult the list a bit that I realized what had happened and that

22     I told you it was only me who drafted the list.

23             As for Rocevic, I didn't know at all that the military police

24     force went there.  You must have someone to ask that question to.  I

25     myself can tell you once more that I have no idea who went there, if

Page 26055

 1     anybody went there.  I don't know what else I can tell you on that score.

 2     But what I am telling you is something I know and I'm sure of one hundred

 3     percent, and there's no reason why I should be covering up for anyone.

 4        Q.   Sir, at the beginning of your answer, you indicated that it was

 5     Jasikovac who was telling you that certain people were going to Orahovac,

 6     and that's why you put the O in the first place; is that correct?

 7        A.   It is possible.  It is possible that I did it that way and then

 8     later I marked that they were in the field.  I don't know what they were

 9     doing in Orahovac.  They were going there to provide security, I don't

10     know what they were doing, if you understand me.  They told us we were

11     going to secure POWs and that's it.  Later on I changed the letters, I

12     put Ts in for field.  They were all in the field.  There were not in the

13     barracks.  For me they were all the same, they were all in the field.

14     That was probably why I did it, I had no other reason to cover up for

15     anyone, why, when everything is known?

16        Q.   Well, sir, at the time that this order was given to send the MPs

17     to Orahovac, you've already told us that you are not the originator of

18     that order certainly; right?

19        A.   Of course.  Who am I to issue any orders?  I was a private [as

20     interpreted].  I was told to go to Orahovac as well, I was told to go.  I

21     would have left with difficult feelings but I would have gone,

22     nevertheless.  Had he told me to go to the bridge, I would have.  I had

23     to.  It was wartime, and it's the army.  Jasikovac ordered that, not me.

24     I never issued orders.  I only saw Jasikovac's orders through.  Maybe I

25     did pass on an order to a soldier because it had come from Jasikovac, but

Page 26056

 1     I never issued order, who was I to order anything?  We had our commander

 2     and his deputy, but his deputy was not issuing many orders.  He had his

 3     commander, the company commander who was in charge of that.

 4             I only kept records of the MP company during quiet periods when

 5     they were in Standard, when there were no military operations underway

 6     and then that would be signed by the commander.  In extraordinary

 7     situation that was all erased and done anew because things did not go as

 8     planned.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, you've spoken about --

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon.

11             MR. BOURGON:  Just a correction for the transcript, Mr.

12     President.  At page 81 line 3 the record reads, "I was a private," and

13     I'm informed what the witness said was I am a simple soldier.  Thank you,

14     Mr. President.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  In our case it's line 5 in the transcript that I

16     have at least it's line 5 on page 81.  Thank you for the correction.

17             MR. BOURGON:  We have both Mr. President, line 5 and line 3.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Yes, go ahead.

19             MR. THAYER:

20        Q.   Sir, I'm glad we are clear on actually who was issuing the tasks.

21     So my question then is, who told you to write the Os for Orahovac on the

22     log?  You weren't issuing those orders, you weren't generating those

23     orders, so who told you to write the O in the first place to indicate

24     that MPs were to be sent and were being sent to Orahovac?

25        A.   As I've said many times I was doing it all.  I wasn't told to do

Page 26057

 1     that by anyone, I was putting those things in, and I don't remember why I

 2     erased them.  I put them in, I erased them.  To the effect people were in

 3     the field.  I didn't order them to go to Orahovac, who was I to do that;

 4     Jasikovac did that.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is Jasikovac still alive, or not?

 6             MR. THAYER:  He is alive, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  You have to ask him all this.  He

 9     will tell you everything.

10             MR. THAYER:

11        Q.   Sir, do you know where Jasikovac is today?

12        A.   I haven't seen him since my demobilisation in 1996.  I don't know

13     where he is.  He is probably still with the army.  He was a professional

14     officer.

15        Q.   Now, you referred, sir, to the order to go to Orahovac to secure

16     the prisoners.  You told us in your interview that among your various

17     duties as administrative clerk was dealing with arranging to pick up

18     things from logistics or to issue a meal or weapons, ammunition, and that

19     you also had a warehouse where you kept ammunition and weapons and that

20     you were in charge of all of that.  That's at page 7 of the interview.

21             Sir, you are, no doubt, familiar with the role of the MPs with

22     respect to POWs.  Was any food requisitioned to bring to the prisoners?

23     You were there at Standard during this period of time, there were a great

24     many prisoners there, what efforts were made to bring food to the

25     prisoners.

Page 26058

 1        A.   When the military policeman went to Orahovac, they had their

 2     rifles.  Each policeman had been issued with an automatic rifle and each

 3     rifle had its serial number.  They had their rifles and ammunition.  We

 4     didn't issue any additional ammo at that time.

 5             If needed, it was myself who went to the logistics departments to

 6     take ammunition if we needed it for the unit.  The same goes for any

 7     food.  I would take those and issue them to the soldiers.  As for the

 8     food for the prisoners, I have no idea about that, I couldn't be issued

 9     with any food for POWs, I could only receive food for the MP members.

10        Q.   And based on your knowledge and recollection, sir, after all

11     these discussions that you've had, there was no food requisitioned for

12     those prisoners, was there?

13        A.   I don't know that.  I didn't see it.  I don't know.

14        Q.   Now, sir, you were asked some questions about the day you were

15     sent to the UNPROFOR checkpoint at the bridge.  And you talked about the

16     night that the order was given to go to Orahovac and you discussed the

17     next day and your activities at the bridge and then some activities in

18     the brigade command.

19             Now, my colleague didn't put any dates at all to you about this

20     period of time, and I take it, sir, that's because you, as you sit here

21     today, can't tell us what those dates were with any precision.  Is that

22     fair to say?

23        A.   You are right, how can I remember any exact dates 13 years ago.

24     I can't remember the dates of a few days back let alone a few years.

25        Q.   And it's fair to say, sir, that you can't account for all the

Page 26059

 1     comings and goings at the brigade command during this period of days, can

 2     you?

 3        A.   If I saw someone, I did.  Otherwise I can't tell you I did.  I

 4     was there.  Had I seen anyone, I would have known about it; but I didn't

 5     see anyone, there was no one there.

 6        Q.   Well, sir, during this period of time after you returned from the

 7     bridge, you resumed your normal duties; correct?

 8        A.   Yes, I was in Standard going about my regular tasks.

 9        Q.   And I don't mean to be facetious, sir, but you weren't staring

10     out your window the entire time during those few days, were you?

11        A.   I didn't understand the question.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Move to your next question, Mr. Thayer, please.

13             MR. THAYER:

14        Q.   Well, sir, if you can't account for all the comings and goings at

15     the brigade command because of you doing your own duties, then when you

16     testified earlier today that you would have seen a civilian, had a

17     civilian arrived in a civilian car and dressed in civilian clothes,

18     that's not true, is it, sir?  You couldn't have possibly been in a

19     position to see at all points during that period, those days, everybody

20     that was coming in and out of the brigade; right?

21        A.   Had there been a civilian in a civilian car, he would not have

22     been let inside the barracks, for sure.  I explained to you what the

23     procedure was when a policeman appears at the gate with a civilian car.

24     He would not be let in, inside the Standard barracks.  As for whether I

25     would have been able to see that person, I may have, but I had not seen

Page 26060

 1     anyone, any civilians within the perimeter during that period.

 2        Q.   Sir, I understand that you told us what the procedure would have

 3     been, but my question is simple.  You were in no position to see every

 4     vehicle or every visitor that came to the brigade command during that

 5     period of days, were you?

 6        A.   I don't know what to tell you.  I could have seen someone if I

 7     had happened to be in the MP office.  I could have seen someone entering

 8     the command building.  But on the other hand, I may not have; I may have

 9     been doing something else, by really doubt that there was anyone.

10        Q.   And, sir, isn't it possible if somebody came for a short visit,

11     just like you said, you may not have seen that person arrive because you

12     were busy doing other things?

13        A.   I don't know.  I didn't see anyone.  I didn't see anyone.  But as

14     I told you, such a person would not have been let inside the barracks in

15     a vehicle.

16             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, sir, I have no further questions.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  I take it you have re-examination,

18     Mr. Bourgon?

19             MR. BOURGON:  Indeed, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have to leave it until tomorrow.  Tomorrow

21     we'll reconvene at 9 o'clock in the morning.  Thank you.

22             MR. BOURGON:  I am sorry, Mr. President, can the witness be

23     warned the usually warning.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, Mr. Kostic, it's important that between today

25     and -- I'll start again.  It's important since we haven't finished your

Page 26061

 1     testimony today and you need to continue tomorrow, between now and then

 2     you do not discuss the substance of your testimony with anyone.  And that

 3     means neither in person nor over the phone, neither here nor with any

 4     other witnesses that may be here present in The Hague.  You are not

 5     allowed to discuss anything pertaining to this case with them.  Did you

 6     understand me well?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I did.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.

10                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day

11                           of September 2008, at 9 a.m.