Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26062

 1                           Tuesday, 23 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam --

 7                           [French on English channel]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, ma'am.  All the accused are present

11     the.  From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic,

12     Mr. Krgovic, and Mr. Haynes.  Prosecution is composition team as

13     yesterday, Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.  Witness is already present.  We

14     finished the cross-examination yesterday.

15             Mr. Bourgon, you had indicated you have redirect.  Please go

16     ahead.

17             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning to you, Mr. Kostic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Judges.

20     Good morning, colleagues.

21                           WITNESS:  STEVO KOSTIC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

24        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Kostic.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 26063

 1        Q.   I don't have too many questions for you this morning, but

 2     immediately I will ask my colleague from the Prosecution to hand over to

 3     you the original of Exhibit P354, which is the attendance roster for the

 4     Military Police Company of July 1995.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  If we can have it in e-court at the same time,

 6     please.  That's P354, and I'd like the last page of this document which

 7     is 6615.

 8        Q.   Sir, if you can look at the last page of this document, I think

 9     it's on the reverse side on 6615, where you have some abbreviations that

10     you included on this document.  You see this, sir?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Yesterday, at page 54, line 17 to 20, my colleague asked you

13     about the abbreviation "BO" used in the MP attendance roster for July.

14     And you stated that this referred to persons on sick leave, and you also

15     used the example of Dragan Asceric at line 79.

16             My question is the following:  To your knowledge, the military

17     policemen who were sent to Orahovac that night, were they fit for combat?

18     In other words, were they injured in any way or sick in any way?

19        A.   They were fit.  None of them were either sick or wounded.

20        Q.   To your knowledge, had these military policemen that night before

21     Jasikovac arrived, had they received any order to remain at Standard, or

22     did they just happen to be there because their work day was over or their

23     duties were over for the day?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

25             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.

Page 26064

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Just some clarification as to when we are talking

 3     about for this question.  There's no time frame.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon, I'm sure will clarify that.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  My questions refer to

 6     that night and that night, I thought that was clear, that this referred

 7     to the night they went to Orahovac, but I will make my questions more

 8     clear.

 9        Q.   So, sir, the night that the military policemen were sent to

10     Orahovac by Jasikovac, according to your testimony, before Jasikovac

11     arrived, had the military policemen received any order to remain at

12     Standard, or did they just happen to be there because their work day was

13     over?

14        A.   The military police was carrying out their duties at Standard,

15     they all had their daily assignments, and that is why they remained at

16     Standard.

17        Q.   Thank you, sir.

18             Looking at the attendance roster that is before you, can you tell

19     me if the name of Drago Nikolic appears on this roster.

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Can you tell me why this is so?

22        A.   Drago Nikolic was not a member of the Military Police Company.

23     He was not on our register.

24        Q.   And what about the name of your commander Jasikovac, does it

25     appear on the roster; and if so, where?

Page 26065

 1        A.   Yes, it does, under number 1, as the commander.

 2        Q.   At page 65 of the transcript yesterday, lines 4 to 6, you stated

 3     the following:  "I would not have liked to have gone anyway because in

 4     Baljkovica, you could see for yourself the list how many wounded and how

 5     many were killed, including my brother Dragan."

 6             Do you recall saying this?

 7        A.   My brother Aco, not Dragan.

 8        Q.   Now, also at page 60, lines 9 to 12, the following questions was

 9     put to you by my colleague, and he was then quoting from the transcript

10     of your January 2006 interview.  So what I'm about to read is something

11     that was in your interview.

12             My colleague said, page 65:  "And the question was put to you:

13     'How do you know people were not willing to go?'

14             "And your answer was:  'One could see.  One could see on their

15     faces; and for me, it was an extremely great pleasure to hear that I

16     should not go.'"

17             Based on this answer, my question is the following:  the fact

18     that you could see on the faces of the MPs that they were not willing to

19     go in Orahovac, did that have anything to do with the executions that we

20     now know later took place in that area.

21        A.   No.  Nobody knew about the executions quite simply.  People would

22     have preferred not to have gone.  The very thought of guarding prisoners;

23     and as far as the executions were concerned, I don't think that they knew

24     anything about this, and that applies to all military policemen.

25        Q.   And, sir, the fact that you, as you mentioned, that it was an

Page 26066

 1     extremely great pleasure to hear that you would not go, did that have

 2     anything to do with the executions that we now know happened later in

 3     this area?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   And, sir, to the best of your recollection, were the members of

 6     the Military Police Company ever glad and eager to go in the field where

 7     combat was taking place or combat could take place?

 8        A.   Well, nobody wants to or likes to go where there was shooting.

 9     If they had to go, they did go, but not because they wished to do so,

10     because lots of people died in the shootings.

11        Q.   And, sir, the military policemen who were sent to Orahovac, to

12     your knowledge, were they told anything other than the fact that they

13     were going to secure prisoners?

14        A.   Commander Jasikovac had told us that we were going to guard the

15     POWs, and that's all.  Nothing else was said.

16        Q.   Sir, at page 58, lines 5 to 7, my colleague asked you this

17     question about the lawyer Cedo Jovic, and I quote:  "When they returned

18     from Orahovac, one of them told you that they no longer had their rifles.

19     Do you remember that?"

20             Your answer, confirming that they no longer had their rifles with

21     them and that they told you, is at page 58, lines 8 to 11.

22             My question today is the following:  Did -- when you had this

23     conversation with Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic, did they mention to

24     you that their weapons had been taken away by members of the army who

25     were not from the Zvornik Brigade?

Page 26067

 1        A.   I don't remember what they told me about who had taken their

 2     weapons.  All I know is that they came and said that they had their

 3     rifles no longer with them and that somebody had taken them from them.  I

 4     don't know who that somebody was.

 5        Q.   Sir, at page 58, lines 14, right up to page -- it's 68, sorry,

 6     68, lines 14 to 76, lines 29, my colleague went on to quote some

 7     questions and answers from your interview, but he missed some lines that

 8     I would like to read to you.  So I will now read to you your interview,

 9     and I will start at page 75, line 14.

10             Line 14 reads as follows:  "Did you speak with Cedo and

11     Bogdanovic?  What was going on in Orahovac? "

12             Your answer was:  "They don't like to speak about it."

13             Then my colleague missed a part where you said:  "They did not

14     comment anything about it simply ..."  -- sorry:  "They did comment

15     anything about it simply."

16             Then at lines 21:  "Did you hear what happened in Orahovac?"

17             Your answer:  "Everybody knows.  Everybody knows that they

18     executed these people there.

19             Investigator:  "Okay."

20             Your answer:  "That's not an issue."

21             Investigator:  "When did you find out that people were executed

22     there?"

23             The Interpreter asked:  "When?"

24             And your answer was:  "After the execution, after that."

25             Investigator asked you:  "How long after that."

Page 26068

 1             And your answer was:  "I don't know.  Probably that same evening.

 2     That was then said, but I don't know who said it."

 3             The investigator went on to ask you, but my colleague did not

 4     quote this part of your interview:  "But when did people came back from

 5     Orahovac?  They were speaking about what happened over there, how it

 6     happened."

 7             And you said:  "Which people, our people? "

 8             The investigator said:  "Yeah, I mean the military police."

 9             Your answer, always on the part that is not quoted by my

10     colleague:  "I don't know, really.  Believe me, I don't know.  I didn't

11     like to comment it at all, and I didn't like to talk about it."

12             The investigator went on to say:  "Yes, I understand.  But you

13     said that you learned that the people were executed the same day."

14             And your answer was:  "Yes, but I don't know how and who did it,

15     and they didn't talk about it."

16             Based on what I just read to you from your interview, do you

17     stand by what you said back then completed as I just read it to you?

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

19             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, so the record is clear, if -- and we

20     can, I think, deal with this one of two ways, either at the tendering

21     time offer this entire section of the interview so that the Court can see

22     exactly how the questioning went.  Otherwise, I'd ask my friend to

23     continue reading the question and answer so that the Court can see where

24     it overlaps with the very questions that I asked the witness.  Otherwise,

25     the Court will not have a fair view of how this series of questions went,

Page 26069

 1     since my friend is not putting the pages or so forth and the lines.  But

 2     I think the Court should see the entire set of questions and how my

 3     questioning and the questioning that my friend is putting to the witness

 4     mesh.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

 6             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, my colleague had the opportunity to

 7     read all the questions during his cross-examination, and I'm taking this

 8     opportunity to make corrections and I'm indicating where in the interview

 9     there were thing that is were missed.  In any event, if my colleague

10     wants to ask for the interview of the witness to be included in the

11     record for impeachment purposes, then I will have no objections to that,

12     because he asked so many questions about.  I think it will be interesting

13     for the Judges to see exactly everything the witness said during his

14     interview.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.  Fair enough.  Let's proceed and we'll

16     determine this issue later on.

17             Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. BOURGON:

19        Q.   So, sir, what I read this morning, does that correspond to what

20     you remember telling the Prosecution at the time?

21        A.   Yes, it does.

22        Q.   And my question is:  To the best of your recollection, when is

23     the first time you heard information or rumours about executions taking

24     place in Orahovac?

25        A.   I think the following day, but I really have no idea when I heard

Page 26070

 1     about it.  I think it was the next day.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  My colleague went on to ask you a very long question,

 3     which can be found in the transcript at page 76 starting at line 16,

 4     until page 79 at line 6, so about a three-page question.

 5             And when he asked this question to you, he quoted from your

 6     interview, and he read bits and pieces from pages 54, 55, 78, 84, 86,

 7     and 89.

 8             My question to you is the following to try to make the record

 9     clear:  To the best of your recollection, did you know at the time that

10     the Military Police Company went to Rocevic on 15 July as suggested by

11     the Prosecution?

12        A.   No.  I didn't know at all that they were at Rocevic.

13        Q.   And do you recall using, when writing this attendance roster that

14     you have before you, using the letter "R" for Romeo?

15        A.   I don't recall at all.

16        Q.   If we go back to the last page of this document at the end, where

17     you did include some abbreviations, was the letter "R" ever included in

18     this list of abbreviations?

19        A.   I can't see anything.

20        Q.   Now, if we look at the first page of this document that you have

21     before you, on the top should read "6610," my colleague draw your

22     attention to the columns of the 14th and the 15th; and he asked you

23     whether you had made a whole bunch of changes to the column of the 14th

24     and to the column of the 15th.

25             My question is:  If there are changes in these columns, as you

Page 26071

 1     testified about, did you make other changes to this form throughout the

 2     month of July?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   For example, if we look at line 12, we see a bunch of Ts that

 5     seem to be -- or to have been written over crosses in a number of places.

 6     Are these change that is you made to this form?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And if we would look at other records or other attendance records

 9     for other months for the Military Police Company, would we also see some

10     change that you made regularly?

11        A.   Yes.  Often, when it was necessary or when there were any changes

12     to daily orders, if there was any action to be carried out, people would

13     be re-assigned to the field.  This probably happened during other months

14     as well, but I don't have these papers in front of me.

15        Q.   Now, when you were questioned about Orahovac by the investigators

16     back in 2006, in your interview you mentioned some names that you did

17     remember were sent to Orahovac that night.  Do you remember the names

18     that you knew immediately when the questions was put to you that had been

19     to Orahovac that night?

20        A.   As I said, I remember Commander Jasikovac having left, as well as

21     Nada Stojanovic, Cedo Jovic, and Goran Bogdanovic.  I can remember those

22     four people and not any others.  After the investigator showed me the

23     roster for the MP company, then I realized that there were some other

24     people who had left as well, and they were mentioned yesterday by the

25     Prosecutor.  But even as I speak here today, I still don't remember them

Page 26072

 1     having left, but their names appear on the list.

 2        Q.   And, sir, the four names that you did mention at the beginning,

 3     for example, you said Bogdanovic and Jovic, were these persons friends of

 4     yours at the time, or how close were you to these people?

 5        A.   I was close with them then and now as well.

 6        Q.   And did you have any hesitation to tell the investigators that

 7     you remembered these people going to Orahovac on that night, despite the

 8     fact that they are your friends?

 9        A.   No.  I remember them first, and I couldn't remember the rest.  I

10     mentioned a few of my best friends that were up there, proving that I

11     wasn't trying to cover up for anyone who is in Orahovac.

12        Q.   Sir, between July 1995, between exactly those events and today,

13     did you hear any rumours that Jasikovac and some military policemen from

14     the company actually went to Rocevic?  Did you hear any rumours about

15     that since July 1995?

16        A.   Yeah.  I didn't discuss Rocevic with anyone; and even today, I

17     don't know whether they were there or not.  As I said yesterday, they may

18     have left Orahovac to go to Rocevic, but I wasn't notified and I wasn't

19     told by anyone later.

20        Q.   And did you hear stories about that, that you could not confirm?

21        A.   No, I did not.

22        Q.   Sir, yesterday, on page 83, my colleague made reference to page 7

23     of your interview; and on that interview, on that page, you said that the

24     military company had a warehouse where you kept ammunition and weapons

25     and that you were in charge of that.  So I will quote what you said

Page 26073

 1     yesterday, at lines 10 to 16 of page 83.

 2             Answer:  "When the military policemen went to Orahovac, they had

 3     their rifles.  Each policemen had been issued with an automatic rifle and

 4     each rifle had its serial number.  They had rifles and ammunition.  We

 5     did not issue any additional ammo at that time.  If needed, it was myself

 6     who went to the logistics department to take ammunition, if we needed it,

 7     for the unit.  The same goes for any food.  I would take those and issue

 8     them to the soldiers."

 9             Sir, based on what you stated, at lines 10 to 16, I would like to

10     know, if you recall of course, when the military policemen went to

11     Orahovac, did you issue them ammunition in addition to what each member

12     normally carried with his weapon?

13        A.   No, I did not.

14        Q.   Did you issue any additional ammunition to the Military Police

15     Company in Orahovac during the next 24 hours?

16        A.   No, I did not issue any.

17        Q.   Did you receive a request to send food to Orahovac, or did you

18     send actually food to Orahovac during the next 24 hours for the Military

19     Police Company?

20        A.   Trust me when I say that I don't remember whether I had some food

21     issued to me so that I could pass it on.  I really can't recall.

22        Q.   And at page 83, lines 16 to 18, that's just the part that

23     follows, you stated that whether or not food was issued or requested for

24     the prisoners of war, you don't know because this was not part of your

25     duties.  Sorry.  I'm reading my question now and not from the transcript.

Page 26074

 1     So to avoid any objection, I will read exactly what you said.

 2             Lines 16 to 18 and that is page 83:  "As for the food for the

 3     prisoners, I have no idea about that.  I could not be issued any food for

 4     prisoners.  I could only receive food for the MP members."

 5             Now, my question was:  If there was or was not food issued to the

 6     prisoners or arrangements made for them to have food, would you be aware

 7     of that.

 8        A.   Well, I would not have probably because it was the logistics that

 9     delivered food.  I have no idea whether I would have been notified or

10     not.  If they did issue some food, they probably would have sent that on

11     some trucks to Orahovac; therefore, I really don't know.

12        Q.   Sir, on page 84, lines 3 to 6, my colleague raised the issue of

13     dates, and he suggested that you cannot tell what were the exact dates of

14     the days you testified about with precision.

15             So I have a few questions regarding dates.  The first one being:

16     Do you remember the day that you saw the buses driving in front of

17     Standard with the prisoners, as you said yesterday?

18        A.   Do I remember the day?

19        Q.   If you remember how many days you saw buses going in front of

20     Standard with prisoners?  Only one day or more than one day?

21        A.   It was only one day that I saw them passing by.

22        Q.   And do you recall that it is the night before that you saw the

23     buses that the MPs went to Orahovac?

24        A.   That was the day when the buses passed by.

25        Q.   And that night that you were assigned on duty at the Karakaj

Page 26075

 1     bridge, is that the same night that you went -- that the MPs went to

 2     Orahovac?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   And the next day you remember that it's the next day that you

 5     relieved by Bovo Nikovic, as you said yesterday?

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I've let it slide, but we are really

 8     leading, and it's asked and answered on direct.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

10             MR. BOURGON:  I don't believe so, Mr. President.  I think that

11     it's important for the witness to put the events in sequence, so that he

12     knows about the dates.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  If it's an intermediate question leading to

14     another, okay, go ahead; but please try to avoid being repetitive either

15     on your side or on the witness's side.

16             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Will do.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  And it is direct, of course.  I mean, it's a very

18     leading question, but I take it that it's an intermediate question.

19             MR. BOURGON:

20        Q.   The day that -- you testified yesterday, sir, that both you and

21     Jeremic were at Standard.  This is the same day that you saw the buses --

22     or is it the same day that you saw the buses with prisoners?

23        A.   I saw the buses on that one day.  There were no other days that

24     the buses were passing by.

25        Q.   And is that the day that you were alone with Jeremic in Standard?

Page 26076

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Again, Mr. President, we went over this in the

 3     direct examination, my friend went through a very careful sequence of

 4     events, and now he is leading the witness repeatedly.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  Indeed, Mr. President, I'm leading, but it's a

 6     result of the cross-examination where he tried to mix the witness up with

 7     the events.  So I'm certainly allowed to ask the witness whether the day

 8     he saw the buses is the day that he was alone with Jeremic at Standard.

 9     There's absolutely nothing wrong with that question, Mr. President.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

12             MR. THAYER:  Just briefly, Mr. President.  I asked this witness

13     one question on that issue because it was clear to me that there were no

14     dates elicited on purpose during direct.  I did not go through any

15     sequence of events with this witness, so the insinuation there's any

16     mixing up is erroneous.  And my friend cannot try to lead this witness on

17     what are not intermediate issues, but the very issues he is trying to

18     establish.  It's improper.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

20             We've discussed this amongst ourselves and the conclusion we

21     arrive at is that, like before, we consider this both leading -- both

22     leading and a question that has been asked and answered already.  But

23     unlike previously, this time we are not going to allow it.  So let's

24     proceed.

25             If you want to go straight to where you are heading, go straight

Page 26077

 1     there, Mr. Bourgon.  I mean, avoid the roundabout, if you can.

 2             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Sir, if you look at the roster in front of you and if you look at

 4     the dates -- can you look at the attendance roster before you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What night were the military police sent to Orahovac?

 7        A.   I didn't understand the question.

 8        Q.   By looking at the register in front of you, that's the attendance

 9     log, my questions -- my colleague put questions to you yesterday about

10     changes being made.  Can you tell us what is the date of the night that

11     the military policemen were sent to Orahovac?

12        A.   The date is the 14th.

13        Q.   Does that correspond to the day they were there or to the night

14     that they were sent?

15        A.   It was that day that they were sent to Orahovac.

16        Q.   Sir, one last question I have for you concerning a question that

17     was put to you by my colleague:  Did you see any unknown civilian walking

18     in Standard Barracks between the gate and the command building on the day

19     you were there with Jeremic?

20        A.   No, I didn't see anyone.

21        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

22             MR. BOURGON:  I have no further questions.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you Mr. Bourgon.

24             Yes, Mr. Thayer.

25             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I've two very brief questions that

Page 26078

 1     arise directly from the redirect, if I may.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  What are these questions?

 3             MR. BOURGON:  Can the witness remove his headphones first,

 4     please, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  We can allow him to hear, if you want.

 6             But anyway, remove them.  It's better.

 7             MR. THAYER:  I don't know if he is still psychic this morning.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, there are two very brief issues.  One

10     is my friend, in trying to clarify the issue with respect to these two

11     lawyers, asked a question that was outside of the area that I was putting

12     that question with respect to the two lawyers for, and I'd just like to

13     address complete the answer that this witness gave in his interview so

14     that we can put that in the appropriate context.  It's simply to ask the

15     witness to confirm something he said in this paragraph.  It's one page,

16     page 75 of his interview.

17             With respect, my friend asked him a question about who these

18     soldiers were that took the weapons away from Bogdanovic and Jovic, and

19     what he said was that they were not members of the Zvornik Brigade.  That

20     is not something I was interested in dealing with; but now that it's

21     arisen, I think it's fair to complete what this witness said, which is:

22     "I think when they were about to be dismissed from the unit that they

23     returned their weapons."

24             That's all I want to ask the witness to confirm, that one answer

25     that he gave, and I think that fairly arises from the redirect.

Page 26079

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  The other question?

 2             MR. THAYER:  The other question has to do with my friend asked

 3     this witness about the four MPs that he has said are his close friends

 4     and why it was that he very willingly recalled their named.  Again, as

 5     part of that answer, there's one line that I want to ask him whether he

 6     can confirm giving that answer.  It is at line 25, page 66 of his

 7     interview, where he says:  "I think Dragan Jovanovic, he went."  Then he

 8     says:  "I know that Nikolic, Drago's brother, went."

 9             And I just want to find out why it is or whether this individual

10     is somebody in the same category that my friend elicited on redirect

11     somebody that was his friend and whether that's why he know that is this

12     person went or if there's another reason why this he knows that this

13     person went.  I think that fairly arises from the thrust of the redirect.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

15             MR. BOURGON:  I object to both questions, Mr. President.  My

16     colleague had every opportunity to ask questions about the interview, and

17     the issues that are raised are not related to what my colleague would

18     like to attempt to do at this point in time.

19             The witness, when he answered my question this morning, said:  "I

20     remember those names.  "He gave four names.  He said:  "The others I

21     remember after I saw what the duty roster was given to me."  That was

22     very clear.  What the witness answered today was very clear, and the

23     Judges will probably most likely have the interview and they can make

24     their own mind as professional judges in terms of seeing if there was

25     anything that was -- that should be asked to the witness.

Page 26080

 1             The other question about --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 3             MR. BOURGON:  The first question that my colleague said, once

 4     again the answer from the witness was very clear.  I would have liked him

 5     to say something that he said elsewhere that those people were not from

 6     the Zvornik Brigade, but he did not say that.  So I think we can leave it

 7     at that, Mr. President, and we are just wasting time.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  So our decision, you see we reach our decisions

11     quite fast and unanimously as well.  Our decision is not to allow the

12     questions.  Main reason, apart from what was stated by Mr. Bourgon, is

13     that we are going to have the document in any case.

14             Plus, the statement of what our attention should be drawn at has

15     already been stated by Mr. Thayer, so there is no need to put the

16     questions.

17             Mr. Kostic, we've come to the end of your journey here.  No more

18     questions for you, which means you can leave this courtroom and go back

19     home.  You will receive all the assistance you need from our staff.

20             But before you leave the courtroom, I wish to thank you on behalf

21     of the Trial Chamber for having come over, and I also wish you a safe

22     journey back home.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

Page 26081

 1             Documents?  Mr. Bourgon, I have three -- five documents indicated

 2     here, and that includes the ones he has marked during his testimony.

 3             MR. BOURGON:  All we have, Mr. President, is the pictures that

 4     were marked in Court.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

 6             MR. BOURGON:  And I have the numbers of these documents that were

 7     given to me, but we lost the small yellow paper with the IC numbers that

 8     were given to us.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Don't worry.  I have them.  If you want to check,

10     it's 3D497, and then IC 3D218, IC 3D219, 220, and 221.

11             All right.

12             MR. BOURGON:  Yes.  Those are, in fact, the IC numbers,

13     Mr. President.  I thank you for your assistance.  I lost my small paper

14     here.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you object to any of these documents,

16     Mr. Thayer?

17             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyone else for that matter?  No objections.

19             They are admitted.

20             Do you have any documents, no, Mr. Thayer?

21             MR. THAYER:  We do, Mr. President, just three.  I think

22     everything else that we used is already in evidence.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  The interview, I suppose?

24             MR. THAYER:  We have the interview, that is 3754; the logistics

25     company attendance roster for July '95, that's 3726; I believe the

Page 26082

 1     engineering roster is already in; and then we have the 1st Battalion

 2     signal squad attendance roster for July 1995, that's 3760.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  There is something wrong in the transcript at

 4     line 25 of page 19.  It says I object the engineering roster, but anyway

 5     that object is out of place.

 6             Any objection, Mr. Bourgon, to these three documents?

 7             MR. BOURGON:  No objection, Mr. President, other than the fact

 8     that I know for the record that all these attendance logs, they should

 9     have been in the Prosecution from the get-go.

10             The fact that they bring these witnesses here at this time is

11     completely contrary to the spirit and the object of the rule 65 ter.

12             Thank you Mr. President.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

14             No objections from anyone else?

15             These documents are admitted.

16             Let's continue with the next witness.

17             MR. BOURGON:  Just to note, Mr. President, in the transcript, it

18     says Mr. Ostojic is speaking, and I would not want to --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I mean, I suggest you avoid that sort of

20     confusion as much as you can.

21             MR. BOURGON:  With the size, it shouldn't be too difficult, but

22     it's okay.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is this one 3DW-17, Mr. Bourgon?

24             MR. THAYER:  16, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  16.  Okay.  Remind me when we come to number 17

Page 26083

 1     that I need to tell you something.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, to you, sir.  You are Mr. Jeremic,

 4     aren't you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Yes, I am.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you.  You are most welcome.  I see

 7     that you have some legal background which makes it is easier for you and

 8     for us, and for everybody for that matter.

 9             Before you start giving evidence, you need to make a solemn

10     declaration that you will be testifying the truth.  The text is going to

11     be given to you by Madam Usher.  Please read it out aloud, and that will

12     be your solemn commitment with us.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

16             Please make yourself comfortable, take a seat.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

19             You have been here before, haven't you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  So you know the procedure.  This time it's

22     Mr. Bourgon who - is it Mr. Bourgon or Ms. Nikolic - Mr. Bourgon who will

23     be putting to you questions first.  He will then be followed by others on

24     cross-examination.

25             Mr. Bourgon.

Page 26084

 1             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           WITNESS:  NEBOJSA JEREMIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Examination by Mr. Bourgon:

 5        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   Sir, for the record, allow me to introduce myself.  My name is

 8     Stephane Bourgon; and along with my colleagues, Ms. Jelena Nikolic and

 9     Ms. Marie-Claude Fournie, we represent Drago Nikolic in these

10     proceedings.

11             Before we begin, I would just like to remind you that if there is

12     a question that you do not understand, please do not hesitate in asking

13     me to say that question over again, so that we are clear as to what is

14     being asked.

15             Sir, can you please state your name for the record.

16        A.   Nebojsa Jeremic.

17        Q.   Sir, you testified before this Tribunal as a witness for the

18     Prosecution on 24 and 25 April 2007.  Do you remember this?

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   Because you testified before, I only have a few questions for you

21     today, which deals specifically with the day that you were on duty at the

22     gate in front of Standard barracks.

23             My first question is:  Do you remember testifying about the time

24     you were on duty at the gate?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 26085

 1        Q.   I would like to put a few questions to you which were not put to

 2     you at the time, and I will begin with the following:  To the best of

 3     your recollection, when did your period of duty at the gate begin?  When

 4     is it that you were first told that you would be on duty?

 5        A.   As I said last time, I can't recall the exact date, but I do know

 6     that it was after Srebrenica had fallen.  I don't know whether it was the

 7     13th or 14th of July.  I can't say that with any degree of certainty, but

 8     it was after Srebrenica had fallen; therefore, in mid-July, the 13th,

 9     the 14th, the 15th perhaps.  I'm not sure about the dates.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please speak into the microphone

12     to his right or closer to the one to his left.  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

15             MR. BOURGON:  The witness said something.  I don't know what

16     it is.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  In the meantime, we didn't receive interpretation,

18     yes.

19             MR. BOURGON:

20        Q.   Sir, did you add something to your answer?

21        A.   I said that I definitely remember being at the gate, and that

22     that was after the fall of Srebrenica, whether it was the 14th, the 13th,

23     but that period anyway.

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Do you remember that in your testimony you

25     mentioned that you saw buses driving in front of Standard Barracks with

Page 26086

 1     prisoners in them?  Do you recall testifying about that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.  I testified to these circumstances.

 3        Q.   And taking this day with the buses as a reference point, when did

 4     your period of duty at the gate begin?

 5        A.   Well, as I just said, I cannot give you the exact date when I was

 6     there, but I was there.  I started my duty shift in the afternoon; but

 7     whether it was on the afternoon of the 13th or the 14th, I don't know.  I

 8     was at the gate for 24 hours.

 9        Q.   Sir, of course, I'm not looking for an exact date.  I'm just

10     looking the day you saw the buses, did your duty begin that day or did

11     your duty begin another day?

12        A.   It was on the previous day that I was at the gate, the previous

13     day, in the afternoon.

14        Q.   And who assigned you to be on duty at the gate?

15        A.   The MP company commander, Miomir Jasikovac.

16        Q.   And was that a regular tour of duty for you?

17        A.   No, that was an emergency.  I very seldom was posted at the gate.

18        Q.   And do you recall what the -- what was happening that -- or the

19     reasons for which you had to be put on duty on that date?

20        A.   Yes, I do remember.

21        Q.   And what was happening?

22        A.   Well, all the MPs were away in the field.  I don't know exactly

23     where they were.

24        Q.   And do you recall -- you mentioned earlier on that you were on

25     duty for 24 hours.  Do you recall who replaced you at the end of this

Page 26087

 1     24-hour period?

 2        A.   Another military policemen replaced me, but I don't remember his

 3     name.  I know that as soon as they returned from the field, one of the

 4     MPs replaced me.

 5        Q.   And, sir, were you alone on duty that day at the gate?

 6        A.   Yes, as an MP.

 7        Q.   And where exactly is the military policeman working from when he

 8     is on duty at the gate?

 9        A.   Well, he is at the gate to the Standard Barracks, quite close to

10     the gate.

11        Q.   I would now like, sir, to show you a picture.

12             MR. BOURGON:  If I could have in e-court, please, 3D497.

13        Q.   Sir, I would like you to look at this picture, and my first

14     question is:  Do you recognise the picture?

15             This will appear in front of you.  Do you recognise this picture?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Can you describe what it is?

18        A.   Well, that's what we called the reception area.  That's the

19     entrance to the Standard barracks in Zvornik; and, normally, but not

20     normally, this is where the MPs were on duty.

21        Q.   Can you describe what is inside that room?

22        A.   Well, I can describe it.  On the right-hand side, there was a

23     room where usually a policeman was sitting, there was a telephone there

24     as well, and another policeman was usually standing outside of the

25     reception area.  Normally, there were two men to the shift; but when I

Page 26088

 1     was on duty, I was alone.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 3             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, the witness was referring to

 4     Exhibit 3D497.

 5             And if I can now have in e-court, 3D500, please.

 6        Q.   Sir, I will show you a new picture, and I would like you to tell

 7     us if you recognise this picture.  Do you recognise the picture?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us what it is?

10        A.   This is the gate, an entrance gate to standard.  It's a sliding

11     gate, and it's purpose was to serve as a door.  And on the left-hand

12     side, I can see a part that served as a barrier that was raised when

13     vehicles entered or exited the compound of Standard.  This was a big

14     gate, and this is the gate through which vehicles entered the compound.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir.  With the assistance of the court usher, I will

16     ask you to make a marking on this picture.  You will be given a pen which

17     actually allows you to mark something on the screen in front of you, and

18     I would simply like you to draw a circle where you say there was this, I

19     think you used the words, "barrier that was raised when vehicles entered

20     or exited the compound of Standard."

21             Can you put a circle around that with the pen?

22        A.   I remember.  This is this part here.  This barrier is not there

23     anymore.

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.  The first gate that you said was a sliding gate,

25     can you also put a circle around that, if you see that sliding gate on

Page 26089

 1     the picture?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel kindly speak into his microphone

 3     to the right.  Thank you very much.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you can see it.  This is this

 5     big gate here.

 6             MR. BOURGON:

 7        Q.   Now, if I can just ask you at the bottom of this picture to put

 8     your initials and today's date, which is 23 September 2008, at the bottom

 9     of this picture.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. BOURGON:  We won't be needing that, so if we can save this

13     picture.

14        Q.   Sir, what was the role of the military policeman on duty at the

15     gate?

16        A.   Well, the role of the military policeman was as follows:  To

17     check both civilian and military vehicles coming in.

18             The military vehicles were passed through by having the barrier

19     raised, and civilian vehicles were also checked, as well as civilians

20     were.  They would enter through a smaller gate, the one that you cannot

21     see in this picture.

22        Q.   And, sir, did you check all vehicles and persons coming into

23     Standard Barracks?

24        A.   I did not check military vehicles at that time, and I knew a lot

25     of members of the Zvornik Brigade, so there was no need for me to check

Page 26090

 1     on them.  I knew that those were our military vehicles, so I didn't halt

 2     them.  I just raised the barrier and let them pass through.

 3        Q.   And what about civilian vehicles, what did you do?

 4        A.   Well, as for civilian vehicles, they were not allowed to enter

 5     the Standard Barracks.  I would stop them, and they were allowed to park

 6     the vehicles behind this fence.  There was a parking area there, and that

 7     is where they will leave their vehicles.  They were not allowed to enter

 8     the compound of the barracks.

 9        Q.   What about a civilian vehicle that was either driven by or there

10     was a passenger who was a member of the brigade?  To use a very easy

11     example, what about if the commander of the brigade came in, in a vehicle

12     that looked civilian, what happened then?

13        A.   Well, I would allow the commander to get in.  I would raise the

14     barrier and allow him entrance.  I would not check on him because I knew

15     who the commander was.

16        Q.   And at what point would you determine whether you would stop or

17     not the vehicle when it was a civilian vehicle?

18        A.   Let me tell you this :  This gate that I see in front of me was

19     only halfway open and the other half was blocked by the barrier.  As I

20     would approach the barrier, I would look into the vehicle and act

21     accordingly.  If it was the military vehicle, I would let it pass

22     through.  If it was a civilian vehicle, I would not let them in, but,

23     rather, direct them to the nearby parking-lot.  You can see that right

24     behind this fence, there's a vehicle parked there.

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And what was the normal procedure once you

Page 26091

 1     turned back a civilian vehicle?  What would that person do then?

 2        A.   If they wanted to enter the barracks, he would come to me,

 3     introduce himself, to say what the purpose of his visit was, and where he

 4     wanted to go.  I would check their ID to verify their identity; and

 5     depending on who they wished to see, I would act accordingly.

 6             If this person was going to the command HQ, I would advise the

 7     duty operations officer; and if it was, if I may say, a visitor of minor

 8     importance looking for a soldier, I would call this soldier by telephone

 9     and ask him to come over to the gate and to have their conversation

10     there.  That was the usual procedure.

11             If anyone wanted to go to see the commander or any other high

12     ranking officer at the command HQ, I would notify the duty operations

13     officer.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Would you let at any time an unknown civilian

15     walk in the barracks without an escort?

16        A.   Civilians were not allowed to enter the barracks, unknown

17     civilians.  In general, civilians had to give their notice of the visit

18     and to leave all their personal details with the military policeman at

19     the gate.

20        Q.   And what happened to the civilian after he had checked in with

21     the military police on duty at the gate?  What would happen then?

22        A.   As I said, depending on who, where they wanted to go, if they

23     were going to the command building, then military policemen would escort

24     him to the point where he wished to go.

25        Q.   Sir, I now turn to the morning when you were on duty at the gate.

Page 26092

 1     My first question is the following:  Do you remember which members of the

 2     Military Police Company were present at Standard on that day?

 3        A.   When I was at the gate, I don't think that there were any members

 4     of the MP company there.

 5        Q.   And, sir, in your testimony, you said that you did not remember,

 6     and I quote from page 10445, for my colleague, you said that you "... did

 7     not remember seeing any officers who were not from the Zvornik Brigade

 8     coming in or going out from Standard Barracks during that day; although,

 9     this is possible."

10             Do you remember saying this?

11        A.   Yes, I do.  I didn't know any other officers other than those

12     from the Zvornik Brigade.  I don't remember.

13        Q.   And what about civilians, do you recall seeing any civilians

14     arriving at Standard Barracks on that day?

15        A.   I don't remember seeing any civilian.

16        Q.   Go on, sir.  I did not want to interrupt you.  Go on.

17        A.   Well, all I wanted to say to that was that an emergency situation

18     and there were very few civilians even on the streets, let alone having

19     them come to the barracks.

20        Q.   If two civilians dressed in civilian and driving a civilian car

21     had arrived at Standard on that day, would you have seen them?

22        A.   Yes, definitely.

23        Q.   Were there any other entrances to the barracks?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Sir, in July 1995, did you know who Ratko Vidovic was?

Page 26093

 1        A.   Yes, I had heard of him.

 2        Q.   Could you have recognised him in July 1995?

 3        A.   No, I had never seen him.

 4        Q.   And, sir, in July 1995, did you know who Vojislav Jekic was?

 5        A.   I had heard of him, too.

 6        Q.   And could you have recognised Vojislav Jekic in July of 1995?

 7        A.   No, I couldn't.

 8        Q.   Sir, if either or both of these individuals would have arrive at

 9     Standard on that day, what would you have done?

10        A.   I would deny them entry to Standard.  I would have to note down

11     their details, personal details, and ask them where they were going.  So

12     their identity had definitely had to be established.  I would stop them

13     at the gate and tell them, "Gentlemen, you have to state your name --

14     names and show me your documents and tell me where you were heading."

15        Q.   And, sir, do you recall calling the duty officer on that day to

16     announce the arrival of any visitors or civilian visitors that day?

17        A.   I don't remember calling the operations duty officer or the duty

18     officer in order to announce the arrival of civilians unknown to me.

19        Q.   Sir, were there many vehicles coming in or going out of Standard

20     barracks on that day?

21        A.   Well, the usual.  Maybe a slightly higher number than on any

22     other day, but I didn't count the vehicles, and I really cannot give you

23     an estimate.

24        Q.   Sir, did you see Drago Nikolic arrive at Standard Barracks during

25     that day?

Page 26094

 1        A.   I don't remember really seeing Drago Nikolic.

 2        Q.   Sir, after that day that you were on duty at Standard Barracks,

 3     what did you do in the days that followed?

 4        A.   Well, I was replaced by a military policemen who had come back

 5     from the field and I resumed my normal duties afterwards, the duties that

 6     I discharged at the MP company.

 7        Q.   Sir, how many times did you meet with members of the Defence team

 8     of Drago Nikolic since your testimony in The Hague?

 9        A.   With the Defence team?  Well, they would come to Zvornik, I

10     think, on two or three occasions.

11        Q.   Do you recall meeting with me in Zvornik?

12        A.   Yes, I do.  You came as well.  We had coffee together.

13        Q.   How many times, do you remember?

14        A.   Twice.  I think twice.

15        Q.   And, sir, did you meet with our investigator Radovan Keslelj?

16        A.   Yes, he was there as well.

17        Q.   And my colleague just reminded me I missed a question.  Do you

18     remember meeting with me in The Hague during the past few days?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   Sir, did anyone from the Defence team of Drago Nikolic ask you to

21     sign a statement?

22        A.   No.  You didn't ask me to sign any statement.

23        Q.   And do you remember what kind of questions either myself or the

24     investigator put to you when we met in Zvornik?

25        A.   Well, the questions referred to whether I knew Jekic or Vidovic,

Page 26095

 1     and whether they had come to the Standard Barracks while I was on duty.

 2        Q.   And were you asked any questions about the procedure for the

 3     military police on duty at the gate?

 4        A.   I don't remember.  It might have been mentioned.

 5        Q.   And, sir, did members of the Defence team of Drago Nikolic try to

 6     influence your testimony in any way?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   I just have one last question for you.

 9             MR. BOURGON:  I would like to come back to the picture, the first

10     one that we used today, which is 3D497.  If we can have this in e-court,

11     please.

12        Q.   Sir, in your testimony today, that's on page 26 -- 27, lines 1

13     to 3, talking about civilians, you mentioned:  "They would enter through

14     a smaller gate, the one that you cannot see in this picture."

15             Now, my question is:  Do you see this smaller gate that you were

16     talking about in this picture.

17        A.   Yes.  I said that the big gate was used to let vehicles pass

18     through and the smaller gate was for pedestrians, and you can see it here

19     next or leaning to the reception area or this duty booth or the reception

20     area, as I said before.

21        Q.   Maybe if I can ask the court usher, to be on the safe side, so I

22     would ask you to identify with this pen with this gate where civilians

23     used to come, so if you can make a circle around that gate.

24        A.   That's the one here.

25        Q.   And one further question:  To the left of this picture, we see a

Page 26096

 1     building in the back.  Can you tell us what this is?

 2        A.   That's the Standard Barracks.

 3        Q.   If you can sign this picture --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sign it and date it, and we'll break.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 6             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you very much.  I have no further questions

 7     thank you Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't see the date on it.  Okay.

 9             We'll have a 25 minute break.  Thank you.

10             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank you, Mr. Jeremic.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Jeremic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  How long do you think your cross-examination will

19     last?

20             MR. THAYER:  We estimated 30 minutes, Mr. President.  I think I

21     should be able to stay within that estimate.  I may need a couple of

22     minutes on the other side.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  And we don't have any other witnesses after that

24     today; correct?

25             MR. BOURGON:  We do, Mr. President.  The next witness is ready to

Page 26097

 1     go.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  I see.  Okay, okay.  I thought the next witness was

 3     the videolink one.

 4             MR. BOURGON:  Both videolink witnesses are tomorrow,

 5     Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  I know that.

 7             Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 8             MR. THAYER:

 9        Q.   Good morning again, to you, sir.  It's nice to see you again.  We

10     have to stop meeting like this.

11             How many times --

12        A.   I hope so, too.

13        Q.   How many times -- well, you testified that you met with the

14     Defence two or three times before coming to The Hague.  Were you shown

15     any documents during any of your meetings, or were you given any

16     information to help refresh your recollection?

17        A.   No.  They didn't try to suggest anything.  I don't know.  I don't

18     think they showed me any documents.  Well, I've already explained what

19     were the circumstances that we discussed.

20        Q.   Right.  So your recollection is -- or your testimony is based

21     solely on your recollection of these events; is that fair to say?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   And is it fair to say that the specific names that stick out in

24     your mind about whom the Defence was interested when they met with you

25     were that of Vojislav Jekic and Ratko Vidovic; correct?

Page 26098

 1        A.   Yes, we discussed that topic.

 2        Q.   Do you recall the names of anyone else who the Defence asked you?

 3        A.   I don't remember.  We spoke mostly about Vidovic and Jekic.

 4        Q.   Now, you recall obviously testifying here on the 24th and 25th of

 5     April 2007, and you also testified in the Trbic trial in Sarajevo on

 6     19 December 2007; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   And when you testified in this case, my colleague from the

 9     Nikolic Defence team asked you about your gate duty.  Your response was,

10     and this is at page 10455 of the transcripts, quote:  "Please do not ask

11     me about dates because I do not remember dates."

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.  That's what I said.

13        Q.   And no one is going to fault you, sir, or criticize you, but it's

14     fair to say that you do not remember the specific dates of these events;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, correct.

17        Q.   And it's also fair to say that with the passage of time, you've

18     forgotten or are unclear about certain events that occurred during this

19     very busy and stressful period of time within the brigade; correct?

20        A.   Yes, it is.

21        Q.   Now, when you testified here before, when I tried to find out

22     from you whether you could tie your gate duty to the time that your

23     fellow MPs were sent to Orahovac, your best recollection at that time

24     was, and I quote:  "Well, almost the entire Military Police Company was

25     absent.  Where they were, I really don't know.  That's when I stayed at

Page 26099

 1     the gate, and that is why I stood at the gate in the first place because

 2     otherwise I never stood guard at the gate."  And that was at page 10484.

 3             And I just want to review with you some other testimony that you

 4     gave, and then I'll put a question to you.  Okay, sir?

 5        A.   [No verbal response]

 6        Q.   We just need an audible answer, that's all.  Is that okay?  I'm

 7     going to ask you a question in a moment.  I'm just going read some

 8     testimony to you.  Are you ready?

 9        A.   Yes, go ahead.

10        Q.   In the Trbic trial, you were asked about when your fellow MPs,

11     including lawyers -- your fellow lawyers, Bogdanovic and Jovic, went to

12     the field.  This is page 33 of the transcript, and the question was put

13     to you.

14             Question:  "So was it a common occurrence that either your two

15     colleagues in your office would go and conduct field operations?"

16             Your answer was:  "No, it would not happen."

17             Then the question was put to you:  "So why were they in the

18     field."

19             And your answer was:  "I truly do not know.  This was decided by

20     the Military Police Company commander."

21             Then the follow-up question was put to you:  "Well, you are on

22     the gate.  When did they leave? "

23             Your answer was:  "I truly do not know when they departed.  I

24     cannot recall the details.  And at that point, actually, I was not even

25     aware that they had left.  I'm referring to the point in time when I was

Page 26100

 1     left at the gate."

 2             Then the next question that was put to you was:  "And on that

 3     time, at that time, on that day you were on the gate, did you see any of

 4     the command staff leaving?"

 5             And your answer was:  "I cannot recall precise names, but many

 6     officers came in and out of the barracks.  It was quite crowded, so to

 7     say, but I cannot recall the names now, nor the faces, when it comes to

 8     all who are coming in and out."

 9             I'm just going to pause and let you catch up with the

10     interpretation.  I'm going to ask you some follow-up questions about that

11     testimony, sir.

12             So, when you testified in the Trbic case, you didn't know when in

13     relation to assuming your duties at the gate your MP colleagues had gone

14     into the field; right?

15        A.   That is right, and I can repeat the same thing now.

16        Q.   Okay.  And, moreover, you testified in the Trbic trial that your

17     gate duty could have lasted from 24 or even up to 48 hours, and that's at

18     page 35 of the transcript in Sarajevo.

19             So it's fair to say that you may have been at the gate for even

20     more than 24 hours; is that correct?

21        A.   It is possible.  It is possible that I stayed there longer.  I

22     don't know if it was 25 or 26 hours.  It may have been 23 for all I know.

23     The only thing I know is that I was alone at the gate because there were

24     no military policemen left.

25        Q.   Okay.  Well, when you testified in the Trbic case that it could

Page 26101

 1     have been 24 to 48 hours, is it possible that it was 36 hours, sir, that

 2     you were at the gate?

 3        A.   I really don't know how much time I spent at the gate.  It was a

 4     long time ago.  I can't recall.  I don't think it was as many as 36

 5     hours.  They returned before that.  I don't think it was 36 hours.  It's

 6     a long time; however, I'm not completely sure.  I think not.

 7        Q.   Now, you further testified, and again this is at page 35, and I

 8     quote:  "While he was at the gate, I didn't even know where the Military

 9     Police Company was, where they were deployed, and so on."

10             Do you stand by that, sir?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   And you were then asked:  "Did you find out anything later on?

13     Did you know when the -- when did these officers return to the barracks?"

14             And you answered at page 36:  "Soon after maybe; maybe after a

15     day or two the company gathered; a day, two or three days.  I don't

16     know."

17             And, sir, can you confirm that you were still unsure whether it

18     was one, two, or possibly three days before the members of your MP

19     company returned to Standard?

20        A.   I can confirm that.  I truly don't know when they returned.  They

21     probably did not return all together the same time; they returned at

22     different times.  Someone may have returned after a day, others after two

23     or three.  All I know is that not all of them came in together at once,

24     and that's what I am telling you now as well.

25        Q.   And just picking up on what you just said, sir, with respect to

Page 26102

 1     some of the MPs maybe returning at later times than others, did you ever

 2     become aware that some of the MPs were sent to more than one location

 3     during this period of time?

 4        A.   I did not.

 5        Q.   So it's still your testimony, then, that to this day you don't

 6     know where your fellow MPs were sent over this one, two, or even

 7     three-day period; is that fair to say?

 8        A.   I didn't know at the time where they were.  Now I do.  I heard

 9     about that.  However, while he was at the gate and around mid-July, I

10     truly didn't know where the policemen had gone to.  It wasn't up to me to

11     decide where they would go, and I wasn't told where they went.  After

12     they returned, some of them told me where they were in the field.  Now I

13     know a bit more than then.  I know where some of them were.

14        Q.   Now, going back to this period in July of 1995, again just to

15     pick up on what you just said, at the time when your fellow MP Company

16     members were returning from the field, where did they tell you they had

17     been assigned?

18        A.   They didn't tell me anything and I wasn't asking.  For example,

19     the work mates that worked with me, they told me where they had been sent

20     to, I didn't ask anyone else.

21        Q.   Okay.  So when you just testified a couple of moments ago that

22     "some of them told me where they were in the field," can you just tell

23     the Trial Chamber who told you and what did they tell you about where

24     they were in the field?  Then I'll move on.

25        A.   Well, my work mates, Bogdanovic and some others, told me they

Page 26103

 1     were in Orahovac, in the field there.  I know about them.  I didn't ask

 2     anyone else about anything of the sort.

 3        Q.   And, sir, would you agree that, as you sit here today, you don't

 4     know exactly which of those one, two, or three days when your colleagues

 5     were out in the field that you spent that period of time at the gate?

 6        A.   I was at the gate while there were no policemen in the barracks.

 7     As soon as they returned, those of them who were assigned to duty shifts

 8     at the gate took over.  They were then at the gate, and I returned to my

 9     regular tasks.  I don't know whether that was one, two, or three days

10     after that.  I truly can't say.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you some questions, then, about your actual

12     duty time at the gate.  You testified earlier today that it started in

13     the afternoon and that you were alone on that duty, and I take it you

14     were alone the entire time; correct?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   Do you recall whether you ever left that post for any reason

17     during the time you were serving at the gate?

18        A.   Perhaps for brief periods of time, but I wasn't absent for any

19     longer periods of time.  Somebody always had to be at the gate, a

20     military policemen had to be there.  Perhaps I may have gone for a couple

21     of minutes, but not longer than that, I'm certain of it.

22        Q.   Understood, Mr. Jeremic.  Is there a bathroom in that little

23     reception area that you saw on the picture?

24        A.   It I really don't know whether there was a toilet in the

25     reception area.  I don't think so.  I think I had to go to the building,

Page 26104

 1     but it's only 15 or 20 metres away from the reception office, maybe a bit

 2     more.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Did someone bring you your meals, or, again, did you

 4     quickly run into the building to get your meals?

 5        A.   Yes.  I really don't remember how it went with my meals, whether

 6     I had lunch boxes or whether I had somebody bring it to me.  I can't

 7     remember.  However, I can repeat that I was not absent from the gate for

 8     any extended periods of time.  I wasn't allowed to.

 9        Q.   Now, a few moments ago when I read out that portion of your

10     testimony in the Trbic trial, you referred to many officers coming in and

11     out of the barracks and that it was, to use your words, "quite crowded,

12     so to say" at this time when you were at the gate.

13             As you sit here today, is it possible for you to remember the

14     names of any of these officers who were coming and going?

15        A.   How?  I don't understand when you say that it was quite crowded,

16     that there were quite many military policemen?  I was the only military

17     policemen at Standard.  Perhaps you meant just plain soldiers.

18        Q.   Yes, I apologise, sir.  It may have been a translation issue, or

19     I may have misspoken.

20             I was citing to you your testimony from the Trbic trial where you

21     testified about many officers, brigade officers, I believe, coming in and

22     out of the barracks.  We all understand that you were alone at the gate.

23             So my question was:  As you sit here today, is it possible for to

24     you remember the names of any of those officers who were coming in and

25     out?

Page 26105

 1        A.   I can't tell you now.  It was an emergency situation and people

 2     were brought back from their leave because they were needed.  They were

 3     all present.  Probably -- I really can't remember the name of an officer,

 4     whether he passed by.  I really don't know.  He may have, but I can't say

 5     with any certainty.  I can't tell you I saw this or that person.  I saw

 6     many people.  I was at the gate, and I could see who was going in and out

 7     of Standard.

 8             As for anyone in particular, whether I saw them at this or that

 9     time, I truly can't say.  I can tell you that there were quite many

10     officers going in and out, perhaps all of the officers that were

11     regularly at the barracks.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, the Prosecution's position, sir, and there's been

13     evidence before the Trial Chamber, is that Sretan Milosevic, Dragan

14     Jokic, and Dragan Nikolic were on duty as duty operations officers during

15     this period of time.

16             Do you recall seeing any of them with that extra knowledge that

17     I've giving you, suggesting to you that they were duty officers in the

18     operations room during this period of time?

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment before you answer.

20             Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

21             MR. BOURGON:  My colleague should make the period of duty that he

22     is referring to more clear to the witness because there's three names,

23     and they might be on duty for -- it's not for me to say how long they

24     were on duty, but the question must be made clearer for the witness.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.  I actually anticipated what you were

Page 26106

 1     going to say.

 2             Yes, Mr. Thayer, please.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, certainly.

 4        Q.   During this period of one, two, three days that we are talking

 5     about when your fellow MPs were in the field - and, sir, if you don't

 6     remember, that's okay.  We are not going to fault you - I just want to

 7     know whether, as you sit here, you can recall for the Trial Chamber

 8     whether any of those individuals acted as duty operations officer during

 9     this period of time?

10        A.   I really can't remember.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we may take a look at 65 ter 383, please,

13     and we'll need to go to page 8 in the B/C/S and page 6 of the English,

14     please.

15        Q.   Sir, what I'm showing you, and I hope you can see it on your

16     screen, is a page from the barracks duty officer book, not the operations

17     duty officer book, but the book that was maintained by the so-called

18     barracks duty officer.  This was kept each day.

19             Are you familiar with this document, sir, this book?

20        A.   I'm not.  I'm not familiar with this document.  I was never the

21     barracks duty officer; however, I know that there were duty officers for

22     the barracks.  Yes, I can recall that.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. THAYER:  If we can scroll down just a little bit in the

25     B/C/S, please.

Page 26107

 1        Q.   This is for the period of the 14th to the 15th of July 1995.  And

 2     if we see at the bottom, do you see where it says:  "A body of troops at

 3     the barracks was not counted due to the activities in the field; and,

 4     practically, only operations duty officer, duty officer, and guards were

 5     at the barracks."

 6             Do you see that, sir?

 7        A.   Yes, I do, towards the bottom of the page.  Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   And is it fair to say, sir, that this reference to lack of

 9     officers, that doesn't sound like the day that you were at the gate, does

10     it, because you saw, as you testified, a lot of officers coming in and

11     out?  Is that fair to say, that this doesn't sound like the day that you

12     were at the gate?

13        A.   As I said --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, one moment.

15             Mr. Bourgon.

16             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think it would be

17     better if the witness would remove his earphones.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  We want to know first whether he understands

19     English.  One moment.  I want to know whether he understands English.

20             Do you understand English?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a word.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Okay.

23             Can you remove your headphones, please.

24             Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

25             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 26108

 1             Just before this gets too far, I mean, I understand this is

 2     cross-examination and that my colleague can suggest possibilities to the

 3     witness; however, he should not confuse him with a past answer that he

 4     gave.  My colleague quoted from the transcript of the Sarajevo interview

 5     where when he mentioned that those officers were coming in and out is

 6     when the military police were leaving.

 7             Now he is referring to another document, and this other document

 8     is on the next day and not the day that the military police left.  So at

 9     least he has to make those questions clear to the witness and not try to

10     confuse him with the dates.  The witness has already said that those

11     dates are unknown to him.

12             Thank you, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think this witness is capable of

15     answering the question as it was put to him.  I don't think there's any

16     confusion going on.  He has answered all the questions that I've asked

17     him without hesitation.  I'm simply asking him whether what he sees in

18     this document is consistent with what he saw at the gate.

19             If my friend has any other problems with that, he can try to

20     clarify it on redirect.  I don't see any reason to interrupt this

21     witness's testimony.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  All we are interested in at the moment is to

24     know whether the witness is capable of answering this question.  If he is

25     and you are not satisfied or you think there is a confusion, you can deal

Page 26109

 1     with it on redirect.

 2             Headphones back.

 3             Do you wish to repeat your question, Mr. Thayer?  I can read it

 4     out.

 5             MR. THAYER:  I will, Mr. President.  I'll just put it to him

 6     again.

 7        Q.   Sir, you've testified quite clearly about seeing a lot of

 8     officers coming in and out of Standard at the time and being present at

 9     Standard at the time.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And, in fact, I think you mentioned that you thought the people

12     were being brought back at this period of time, which might explain why

13     there were so many officers while you were at the gate.

14             So my question is:  Looking at this excerpt from the barracks

15     log, where it refers to the only officers being present being the duty

16     operations officer and the barracks duty officer, does it sound like this

17     day is the day you were at the gate, or does it sound like this must be

18     another day?  That's all I'm asking you, sir.

19        A.   Well, let me explain you.  When I said that I saw many officers

20     coming and going out of the barracks, I meant the officers who came to

21     the barracks, took something, and went back.  So there was a lot of

22     coming and goings.  I didn't say that I saw officers walking around the

23     compound of the barracks.  That is what I wanted to say, that's what I

24     said the last time, and I'm saying it again.

25             They came to fetch something.  Whether they did or not, they

Page 26110

 1     stayed for a brief period of time and went out again.  This is what I

 2     saw, that there was a lot of comings and goings.  I didn't see them

 3     strolling around the compound.  This is what I think I said.

 4        Q.   And when you said in your testimony in the Trbic case -- I just

 5     want to make sure we understand you clearly.  When you say it was "quite

 6     crowded, so to say," can you recall, as you sit here today, which

 7     officers; and if you can't remember names, that's fine.

 8             I'll adjust the question a little bit.  Can you recall, can you

 9     give us any number of how many brigade officers actually were present at

10     the brigade?  Understanding that you've told us you saw a lot of officers

11     coming and going, can you tell the Trial Chamber, can you give the Trial

12     Chamber any idea of how many officers were present at Standard?

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to make a statement still make a

14     statement, Mr. Bourgon, because I saw you.

15             MR. BOURGON:  No, Mr. President.  He changed the question.

16     "Present at Standard" is fine with me.  It's a different question.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I honestly don't know.  I can't

19     give you any number.  I cannot recall.

20             MR. THAYER:

21        Q.   Okay.  Just a couple of more questions for you, sir.  In answer

22     to a question from my friend earlier today, you testified that you don't

23     recall whether there were VRS officers who were not members of the

24     Zvornik Brigade coming in and out, but that it's possible.  Do you

25     remember that, sir?

Page 26111

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MR. THAYER:  May we have P377 on e-court, please.

 4        Q.   I'm going to show you a couple of pages from the duty operations

 5     officer notebook, sir, and we'll get there in just a second.

 6             MR. THAYER:  We are looking at page 131 of the document, please.

 7     131.

 8        Q.   Sir, do you see the document in your own language there?

 9        A.   It's quite illegible.  Well, yes, I do see it.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  One moment, one moment.  We need to

11     stop for just two minutes.  Please stay here everyone.  We'll be coming

12     back soon.

13                           --- Break taken at 11.38 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 11.41 a.m.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Hence forth, and until the end of this week, we

16     will be sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge Kwon.

17             Yes, Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Okay, sir.  Do you see in the middle of the page, or slightly

20     above the middle of the page, a phone number, 583-959, and an entry that

21     says:  "Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Zvornik Municipal

22     Assembly, Zekic."  Do you see that, sir?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   At the time in July 1995, did you know who this person was, sir?

25        A.   I feel that was the president of the Executive Council, Zekic.

Page 26112

 1     Yes, I do know him.  If we are talking about the same person, I think he

 2     was the president of the Executive Council, yes, of the Assembly.  I knew

 3     who Zekic was.

 4             MR. THAYER:  May we jump into private session for just one

 5     question?

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go to private session for a short

 7     while, please.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are back, yes.

22             Yes, please go ahead.

23             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Now, sir, is it possible that during this time when you were at

25     the gate, that this individual, Zekic, actually came to Standard for a

Page 26113

 1     meeting and you simply can't remember today because of the passage of

 2     time?

 3        A.   I'm sure I don't remember.

 4        Q.   Again, sir, it's possible that this meeting happened, that this

 5     individual was there, it's just that you don't remember because of the

 6     passage of time; is that correct?

 7        A.   I really don't know about this meeting.  I don't remember.  Yes,

 8     you are right.  It was a long time ago and I don't remember.

 9             MR. BOURGON:  It's twice the same question, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's move on, Mr. Thayer, please.

11             MR. THAYER:  May we go to page 143 of the English and the B/C/S,

12     please -- sorry, page 133; not 143, 133.  That's 133 of both the English

13     and the B/C/S.

14        Q.   Sir, do you see the document in front of you?  This is another

15     page from the same duty operations officer notebook.  There is a

16     reference to Jokic and a delegation from Pilica.  Do you see that, sir?

17        A.   Yes.  I see it, but this is the first time I see it in my life.

18        Q.   That's fine, sir.  Do you know who Slavko Peric is?

19        A.   Slavko Peric?  I don't know.  Can you help me with providing --

20     with giving me some more details?

21        Q.   Sure.  Mr. Peric was the security officer for the 1st Battalion.

22     Does that ring any bells for you?  If it doesn't, that's okay.

23        A.   I knew quite a few security officers from the battalion, but I

24     cannot remember a Peric.  Probably, if I saw him, I would have

25     remembered, but I don't know.

Page 26114

 1        Q.   Okay.  Well, sir, there's been testimony in this case that

 2     Mr. Peric and some other members of his battalion arrived at Standard

 3     during this three-day period we are talking about, and that Mr. Peric was

 4     accompanied by some people who were in civilian clothes.  Do you have any

 5     recollection of this individual and this delegation arriving?

 6        A.   I can't say that I do.  I don't remember.

 7        Q.   Again, is it possible that they came and you just can't remember

 8     because of the passage of time?

 9        A.   Anything is possible.  If there had been a large group of

10     civilians entering Standard during my shift, I would remember that, but I

11     don't know about this.

12        Q.   Now, let me just ask you, you referred to Mr. Jekic and

13     Mr. Vidovic.  Mr. Jekic being a former high level MUP officer from

14     Serbia, and Mr. Vidovic being the former chief of police of Mali Zvornik,

15     would you consider those officers just regular civilians, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I would.

17        Q.   And they would have to show their share official credentials in

18     order to be let through; is that correct?

19        A.   They certainly would.

20        Q.   Now, sir, my last question is:  If during this period of time you

21     were at the gate there was a small group of civilians, let's say two

22     civilians, who came to Standard, isn't it possible that, number one, they

23     came through for a short visit while you were not at your post?

24        A.   I explained awhile ago that I was away just for brief periods of

25     times.  Maybe I was absent for a minute or two and I explained what the

Page 26115

 1     reasons for that were, but I would definitely not allow two strange

 2     civilians to come in so easily without checking their identity papers or

 3     without informing the duty operations officer about their identity, if,

 4     as you mentioned, those were two high ranking officers from the MUP of

 5     Serbia.  But I don't -- I very much doubt that they would pass through

 6     unnoticed.

 7        Q.   Sir, in your answer, you just said:  "... if, as you mentioned,

 8     those were two high ranking officers from the MUP of Serbia."  Do you

 9     mean to say that if they were such officers, it's possible that they came

10     through?  Is that what you were saying there?

11        A.   That's not what I wanted to say.  You said two high ranking MUP

12     officers and I just repeated your words.  I didn't know whether they were

13     officers or not; but if they were dressed in civilian clothes, they

14     wouldn't have been able to pass through.  I would stop them, check their

15     ID papers, and ask for instructions from the duty operations officer

16     because I didn't know who these people were.  I don't know how they

17     looked like.  I had heard of them and I would find them interesting in a

18     way, and that would definitely be something to help me memorize that

19     these two appeared at my gate.

20        Q.   But, again, sir, you would agree that it's possible that you've

21     simply for gotten that, as you've have forgotten a lot of other --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are being repetitive now.  I mean, you put this

23     question several times and this possibility several times, and you have

24     had more than one answer.  So let's move to your next question if you

25     have any or else conclude here.

Page 26116

 1             MR. THAYER:  That is my final question.  I thank you Mr. Jeremic.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is there redirect, Mr. Bourgon?

 3             MR. BOURGON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Briefly, please.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

 6        Q.   I only have a few questions for you, Mr. Jeremic.

 7             At page 34 lines 18 to 20, there was a question about what

 8     documents were shown to you by the Defence, and your answer was that we

 9     did not try to influence you in any way.

10             But do you recall that we showed you those pictures that we used

11     in Court today?

12        A.   No.  No.

13        Q.   When we met this weekend here in The Hague, do you remember we

14     showed you those pictures?

15        A.   I don't remember.  I haven't seen them.

16        Q.   Sir, when you -- at page 35, lines 1 to 4, you mentioned in

17     response to a question from my colleague that:  "When we met, we spoke

18     about Ratko Vidovic and Vojislav Jekic.

19             "When I say "we," it is you and I, to be more precise.  Did we

20     ask you only about Ratko Vidovic and Vojislav Jekic, or did we also ask

21     you about any civilians coming in on that day?

22        A.   Well, we mostly discussed Jekic and Vidovic, but you did ask me

23     how would I have reacted if any other civilians showed up.

24        Q.   Sir, when my colleague quoted from your transcript before the

25     Sarajevo court, he quoted the following passage, and that was at page 33,

Page 26117

 1     lines 20 to 22:  "I cannot recall precise names, but many officers came

 2     in and out of the barracks.  It was quite crowded, so to say, but I

 3     cannot recall the names now, nor the faces, when it comes to all those

 4     who were coming in and out."

 5             Does this comment apply to officers, and is the situation

 6     different for civilians?

 7        A.   There were no civilians whatsoever; I said that before.  The

 8     situation was such that they were not in the vicinity of the barracks.

 9     They didn't even pass along the main road, and it was just the army

10     there.

11        Q.   And, sir, one question I'd like to have for you:  If you civilian

12     or a person dressed in civilian clothes came in, in the same car as a

13     brigade officer, is it possible that this person would be let through?

14        A.   Well, if that person was in the company of a commander or a

15     chief, I wouldn't stop such a vehicle.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

17             MR. BOURGON:  I have no further questions.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

19             We have one question from the Bench.

20             Judge Prost, please.

21                           Questioned by the Court:

22             JUDGE PROST:  You've covered this, I think, Mr. Jeremic to some

23     degree, but I just wanted to be very clear here.

24             At page 28 of the transcript today, lines 20 to 25, Mr. Bourgon

25     put a question to you:  "Would you let at any time an unknown civilian

Page 26118

 1     walk in the barracks without an escort."

 2             And the part of the answer I'm interested in is where you said:

 3     "Civilians were not allowed to enter the barracks, unknown civilians."

 4             I am wondering if there was a distinction, then, if a civilian

 5     happened to be known to the guards if he or she would be allowed to

 6     proceed into the barracks without an escort?

 7        A.   If an officer was in civilian clothes, I would let him in without

 8     any checks.  That's what I had in mind.  Unfamiliar civilians would not

 9     be let in.  If there was a civilian that I knew, for example, an officer

10     in civilian clothes, I would let him pass through the gate.  That's what

11     I had in mind when I said that.

12             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you there are no further questions for you,

14     which means that you are free to go.  Staff will assist you.  Thank you

15     for coming again to give testimony; and, once more, we wish you a safe

16     journey back home.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and good-bye to

18     everyone.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  And, Mr. Bourgon, documents?  You have got two

20     photos.

21             MR. BOURGON:  Indeed, Mr. President, two pictures, 3DIC 222,

22     which is a version of 3D500; and 3DIC 223, which is a picture of

23     Exhibit 3D497.

24             That's it, Mr. President.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Objections?

Page 26119

 1             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  They are admitted.

 3             Do you have any documents, Mr. Thayer?

 4             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  That disposes of that witness.  Let's go into

 7     private session for awhile before we go to the next witness, because I

 8     want to clarify something with you.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26120

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  The next witness, his name is not to be mentioned.

 3     Yes.  We were informed that you will be seeking for the continuation of

 4     the protective measures granted to this person in another case

 5     continuation for this case.  Is this correct?

 6             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  However, the e-mail that you sent to

 8     our senior legal officer seems to suggest that this person enjoyed in

 9     that trial, in those proceedings, the protective measures of pseudonym,

10     face distortion, and voice distortion.

11             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that is the

12     information we received during our meeting with the witness.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  However, I have been given the decision by that

14     particular Trial Chamber which indicates that the protective measures

15     granted to this individual were only of a pseudonym and face distortion.

16     They did not include voice distortion.

17             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] As far as Defence is concerned,

18     Your Honour, we have no problem with using the same measures as they

19     applied in the last case.  Perhaps the witness was wrong when he passed

20     that information on.  If you wish so, we can verify that once more with

21     the witness.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  The decision of the other Chamber goes back to

23     August 2003, it's of the 26th, which you can check, I suppose.  You would

24     have a copy of it.

25             So, have you verified?  Have you been able to verify this,

Page 26121

 1     Mr. McCloskey in.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We haven't, Mr. President, but we can just stay

 3     out of this one.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Can we start with this witness.

 5     I think you need to bring down the curtains while he walks in.

 6             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, I have one further preliminary

 7     matter before we begin --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

 9             MR. BOURGON:  -- in public session, which also has to do with

10     Witness 3DW-1, in terms of the scheduling of his testimony.  Many

11     suggestions were made yesterday that maybe he could begin today or maybe

12     he could begin earlier on Thursday.  It doesn't seem to be possible.

13     Both options are not possible.  Some people are not happy with the fact

14     that he would begin an hour earlier, others -- other teams want to see

15     the witness before he begins his testimony; therefore, we prefer to have

16     him begin on Thursday.

17             I did discuss the matter with the witness; and contrary to what I

18     said yesterday, he has no obligations, he would have been able to begin

19     earlier.  But now he has checked his agenda and he is willing to stay

20     until Monday, if that is necessary, to complete his testimony.  So we can

21     proceed as planned on Thursday morning.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's good.  That's good.  Thank you.

23             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is a 92 ter witness, isn't he?

25             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 26122

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's have it as brief as possible, then.

 2             Good morning to you, sir.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are welcome to this Tribunal.  You are going to

 5     start giving evidence as a witness for the Nikolic Defence team.  You

 6     have testified here before, and when you did you were given two

 7     protective measures; namely, that of the use of a pseudonym instead of

 8     your real name and also the use of facial distortion.  We have discussed

 9     this and we are going to keep them in place for the duration of your

10     testimony in this trial now.

11             Before you start giving evidence, you are required to make the

12     solemn declaration you are familiar with.  Please read it out aloud, and

13     that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself

17     comfortable.

18                           WITNESS:  WITNESS 3DPW-017

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  For the first part of your testimony, I think we

21     will need to go into private session, so let's go into private session

22     immediately.

23                           [Private session]

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 26123











11 Page 26123 redacted. Private session.















Page 26124

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.  Thank you.

13             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   I will address you as "Witness."  Do you remember having given a

15     statement to the Drago Nikolic Defence team on the 1st of June 2008?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   Did you have occasion to read that statement yesterday during

18     your proofing for the testimony here in The Hague?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]  For the needs of the proceedings

21     under Rule 92 ter, I wanted to read out the summary of the statement.

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26125

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mrs. Nikolic.

 2             Let's go into private session, please.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26126











11 Pages 26126-26127 redacted. Private session.















Page 26128

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

 5             MS. NIKOLIC:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Ratko Vidovic's police force --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  No.  You start where I told you:  "Based on

 8     his ..."

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] From the beginning of the

10     paragraph.

11             Based on everything he knows and went through, the witness

12     believes that Ratko Vidovic was deeply involved in the events in Zvornik

13     in 1992.  Ratko Vidovic's police unfoundedly arrested the witness in the

14     territory of Serbia and turned him over to the people from Zvornik.  The

15     witness was then directly taken to the Alhos factory where he was abused.

16             The witness believes that Ratko Vidovic cooperated with Arkan,

17     SDS members, and other participants in the 1992 events.  He carried out

18     their orders and knew well what was taking place in Zvornik during that

19     period.  The witness did not know Vojo Jekic, but he heard that he was

20     present in Zvornik during the events of 1992.

21             The witness remembers Enver Abdic, who was the Zvornik Red Cross

22     secretary, who was arrested in 1992, beaten, and killed.  His body was

23     found in 2007 during the exhumations carried out at Crni Vrh.  Abdic's

24     murder is linked to Jekic's activities in 19.92 in Zvornik.

25             This concludes the reading of the summary pursuant to Rule 92

Page 26129

 1     ter.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Do you have a few questions?

 3             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I'll have about

 4     a dozen questions, but I think this is a good time for the break.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's have a 25 minute break starting

 6     from now.  Thank you.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

10             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Sir, this summary of the statement that I have read out, does

12     that reflect your statement?

13        A.   Entirely.

14        Q.   Are the facts contained in your statement true and correct?

15        A.   I believe they are.

16        Q.   Do these facts fully reflect what you would have said for this

17     Honourable Court had you been asked the same questions that you were

18     asked in the statement?

19        A.   I believe that what I said is what it is.

20             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this point Your Honour, I would

21     like to tender into evidence the statement of Witness 3DW71; that is,

22     document number 3D471.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from anyone?  Mr. McCloskey?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

Page 26130

 1             It will be under seal, of course.  So let's proceed, and we'll

 2     give it a number later.

 3             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Let me ask you just a few more questions and I will curtail my

 5     redirect.

 6             On the day that you were arrested, at the place where you were

 7     arrested, did you talk to any of the policemen from Mali Zvornik?

 8        A.   Yes, I did, but only after they put me into the car.  Actually, I

 9     asked to talk to the police commander Vidovic.  They contacted him and

10     told him that he was at the petrol station in Mali Zvornik.  They drove

11     me there and that was in the direction of Bosnia -- or rather, Alhos, and

12     they already had an order to hand me over there.

13        Q.   That is the question.  On that day, did you talk personally with

14     Ratko Vidovic?

15        A.   Yes, I did.  When they brought me to the petrol station, he was

16     there, and I exchanged a few words with him.  Actually, I asked him why I

17     was arrested, if I was arrested at all, and why are they taking me to

18     Bosnia to another republic, because at the time we still thought that we

19     were one country.  And the normal procedure would be to take an arrested

20     person to the district court of that particular region, not to take them

21     to another republic.

22             He responded by saying that he could not help me, that I should

23     go to Alhos and try to settle the issue there, which means that he must

24     have had some orders from someone else to have me taken to Alhos without

25     any additional questioning.

Page 26131

 1        Q.   Do you know who he received the orders from?

 2        A.   I don't know directly, but I know who was present during my

 3     arrest and what this line of communication was.  I was handed over

 4     directly to the president of the SDS, Brano Grujic, and Arkan's deputy,

 5     the "Major" or whatever he was.

 6        Q.   Do you know where Brano Grujic's whereabouts now?

 7        A.   I know that he is waiting in custody in Belgrade for trial.

 8             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like us to

 9     move into private session for the next few questions, if possible.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's do that.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26132

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   How long did you know Ratko Vidovic?

19        A.   Well, certainly since the day I came to Zvornik until 1992.  That

20     would make it 20 years or so.

21        Q.   As a member of the commission that you just mentioned, did you

22     learn about any activities of Ratko Vidovic?

23        A.   At that time, he and another colleague of his were accused of

24     bringing vehicles from Austria and Germany illegally and selling them in

25     Serbia and Bosnia.  Due to that, he was suspended from the police.  He

Page 26133

 1     left Zvornik after that, and the other colleague remained there and

 2     worked as a haulier.  And after awhile, he turned up as a police officer

 3     in Mali Zvornik.

 4        Q.   Based on your 20 year long acquaintance with Ratko Vidovic, how

 5     would you describe him as a person?

 6        A.   If we do not take into account what he did to me personally, and

 7     his responsibility for having me delivered to Alhos, although he knew

 8     what would happen to me, that I would be killed if I was detained there,

 9     I can say that he was a man who had committed an offence.  And I also

10     know that after the war he bought some business premises and a flat in

11     Belgrade, and that was the time when people didn't have any food on their

12     tables and were unable to satisfy their daily needs.  I don't think that

13     he could have afforded that on his civil servant's salary.

14             So, regardless of all that, I would say that he was a

15     dishonourable man for being responsible for what happened to me.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22        Q.   During these meetings, did you hear of a man called Vojo Jekic?

23        A.   Not initially; but sometime in March, his name mentioned came up.

24     I cannot tell you exactly in what context, but I remember Brano Grujic

25     saying several time that he had contact with Vojo.  I didn't know what

Page 26134

 1     his position was, but I remember him being mentioned; although, names

 2     were rarely mentioned, but his name was.

 3        Q.   What about Predrag Jovicic?

 4        A.   Yes.  I saw him personally in those days before the war.  He was

 5     the secretary of the Zvornik municipality committee; and, later on, as a

 6     Bosnian-Herzegovinian caterer, he joined the State Security service in

 7     Belgrade.  Some two weeks before the war, the both were mentioned in that

 8     context.  I still don't know who they belonged to.  I assumed that they

 9     were members of the same service.

10        Q.   Were these services involved in any activities at the beginning

11     of war in Zvornik?

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, sir.  We are getting so far into

14     non-relevant, as far as I can see, materials.  He has heard a guy's name,

15     he doesn't know what context it's in, he heard he might be this, he heard

16     he might be that.  I don't know what good this is doing the Court.

17             I think we've gotten out of the fact about the witness and this

18     is not a 92 ter issue, and I just think there's just no probative value

19     going here -- going down this line of inquiry with a witness, especially

20     for this time period.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

22             Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go into

24     private session now, so that I can respond to this objection.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go into private session.

Page 26135

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  At the end of the day, Ms. Nikolic, what you should

16     be concerned with is that to provide us with enough information, enough

17     testimony which would enable us to put the testimony of this gentleman

18     and that of others, and that's it.  I mean, because we are talking of

19     events in 1992, and they are relevant only insofar as an allegation was

20     made in the course of this testimony -- of this trial.  So let's

21     concentrate on that.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Sir, did you --

24        A.   Would the counsel please repeat the question.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  There will be no repetition of the question.  There

Page 26136

 1     will be a new question that is beside the subject matter that you are

 2     trying to deal with.

 3             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is relative to

 4     the 1992 events.

 5        Q.   Did you know Mr. Enver Abdic personally?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.  We were friends.  He was the secretary of the Red

 7     Cross of Zvornik municipality.

 8        Q.   Why do you think that Vojo Jekic had anything to do with the

 9     disappearance of Enver Abdic --

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection Mr. President.  Where is this taking us

11     in the long run.  This kind of drive-by character assassination - perhaps

12     this guys deserve it - but I don't think it does the Court any good.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Again, what would be the relevance of this

14     question, Ms. Nikolic?  I don't think you understood what I told you

15     before.

16             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, Your Honours, I

17     will conclude my examination-in-chief.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Zivanovic?

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No questions for this witness, Your Honours.

21     Thank you.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  No exam.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

Page 26137

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau?

 2             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] No questions.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse, nothing?

 4             MR. JOSSE:  No questions.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. McCloskey?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.

 9             I have no questions.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Which basically means that we have finished here,

11     unless Judge Prost and Judge Stole have any questions.

12             Sir, we are finished with your testimony which means you can go

13     back home.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for

14     having come over.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Wait until the curtains are down

17     because we must not show your face.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             Ms. Nikolic, any documents?

20             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  The list has

21     been submitted:  The witness statement 473, and pseudonym sheet, 3D503 --

22     I apologise, the witness statement, 471.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  471.  All right.  Okay.

24             I take it there are no objections?

25             So they are admitted under seal, both of them.  Both documents

Page 26138

 1     will remain under seal, separately under seal.

 2             Is there anything else?

 3             One moment because while we are at this, I'll go back my notes.

 4     Okay.  There was a Defence motion from the Borovcanin Defence team filed

 5     on the 11th of September, 2008, seeking leave to amend their 65 ter

 6     exhibit list with the documents indicated in the annex attached thereto.

 7     On the 17th of September -- this was filed on the 11th of September.  On

 8     the 17th of September, following a prompt from the Bench, the Prosecution

 9     filed a response in which they did not object; therefore, here and now,

10     we are granting this motion ordered.

11             Then there was another motion from the same Defence team, the

12     Borovcanin Defence team, for the admission of written evidence in lieu of

13     oral testimony pursuant to 92 bis, together with an appendix.  This was

14     filed on the 15th of September.  Basically, the Borovcanin team request

15     the admission of a statement by one of the witnesses, Brigadier Grange,

16     pursuant to rule 92 bis without requiring cross-examination.  General

17     Grange is a character witness.

18             This was raised in Court on the 16th of September, and on that

19     occasion, Mr. McCloskey, you said that you required some more time.  A

20     week has passed since then.  I don't know whether you require more time

21     or whether you are in a position to make a statement?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I've spoke within

23     Mr. Gosnell and Mr. Lazarevic and Mr. Thayer, and we have decided not to

24     object to that motion.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Is there any objection from any of the

Page 26139

 1     other Defence teams?  None.

 2             So that motion is also being, here and now, granted orally.

 3             Then there is the motion from General Miletic for authorisation

 4     to add some documents to the list of exhibits pursuant to rule 65 ter G.

 5     There is a confidential annex attached to it.  This was filed on the

 6     18th of September.

 7             As you will recall, we had put the question to the Prosecution on

 8     the 18th of September, the Prosecution said that it will be no problem;

 9     but the Gvero Defence team said that they were not ready at the time and

10     would not be ready by Monday, 22nd of September.  Today is the day after,

11     the 23rd of September.

12             Maybe Mr. Josse is in a position to enlighten us.  If you require

13     more time, we will, of course, accommodate you; but if you are in a

14     position to tell us your position, we'll be glad to hear that.

15             MR. JOSSE:  Since the Trial Chamber have kindly given us the

16     option, we would rather have more time, please.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Until when?

18             MR. JOSSE:  Next Monday, please.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  That's that.  Okay.  So that's

20     it.  I don't think we have anything else.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Registrar is reminding us that tomorrow there

23     was a special request because of logistics that we do not start the

24     videolink before 10 o'clock; is that correct?

25             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

Page 26140

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  And in that case, can I ask you if there is

 2     anything pending that you would like to deal with in open session or in

 3     private session tomorrow morning between 9.00 and 10.00, any other

 4     business that we could transact?

 5             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Not at the moment.  The Defence has

 6     no proposals.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyone else?

 8             Mr. McCloskey?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing, Mr. President.  Without Mr. Bourgon here

10     to discuss what we could argue about, I don't have anything.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  That means if we can think of something

12     ourselves, we will send you the message and we will start at 9.00;

13     otherwise,we start at 10:00, or just before 10:00, to be ready for the

14     videolink tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.26 p.m.

16                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th of

17                           September, 2008, at 10.00 a.m.