Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26141

 1                           Wednesday, 24 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness appeared via videolink]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 10.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So, good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call

 7     the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, ma'am.

11             All the accused are present.  Absent amongst the Defence teams, I

12     notice Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Haynes.

13             Prosecution today, Prosecution team is composed of Mr. McCloskey

14     and Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             Yes.  The break will be at 10 minutes past 11, and then we'll

16     have another break at 12.30.  First break will be of 20 minutes; second

17     break will be a full break of 30 minutes.

18             We are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, Judge Kwon being absent

19     on official work.

20             Are we in contact with Belgrade?  We are.

21             Good morning to you.  I would like to have first confirmation

22     from you that you can see us and that you are hearing my voice or the

23     interpretation of what I'm saying?

24             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.  We

25     can see and hear you, and so can the witness.

Page 26142

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you repeat please.

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.  We

 3     can see you and hear you both in English and B/C/S.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you for that confirmation.

 5             We are going to proceed with the testimony of this witness.  Good

 6     morning to you, sir.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  You've been summoned as a Defence witness by the

 9     accused Nikolic; and before we go ahead, we need to get a confirmation

10     from you, an undertaking, in the form of a solemn declaration that in the

11     course of your testimony, you will be speaking the truth.

12             The lady who is sitting next to you is going to give you, in your

13     own language, the text of the solemn declaration.  Please read it out

14     aloud and that will be your undertaking with us.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Ms. Nikolic, who is the lead

18     counsel for accused Nikolic, will be putting some questions to you; then

19     she will be followed by others on cross-examination.

20             Go ahead, Ms. Nikolic.

21                           WITNESS:  MILAN RADIC

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           [Witness testified via videolink]

24             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. President.  Good

25     morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to my learned friends.

Page 26143

 1                           Examination by Ms. Nikolic:

 2        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Radic.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   I will introduce myself for the record.  Although we have met

 5     before, my name is Jelena Nikolic, attorney at law.

 6             I would kindly ask you to tell us what your first and last name

 7     is?

 8        A.   Milan Radic, son of Pavle.

 9        Q.   When and where were you born, and how old are you?

10        A.   I was born on the 13th of April, 1943.  I'm 65 years old.

11        Q.   In 1995, you were 52?

12        A.   That is right.

13        Q.   Where were you born?

14        A.   In Malesic, the village of Malesic, near Kozluk; military

15     post 75413.

16        Q.   Where do you reside now?

17        A.   In Malesic.

18        Q.   What is your current occupation?

19        A.   I am retired.

20        Q.   You were mobilised during the war in Bosnia in 1992 through

21     to 1995?

22        A.   Yes, I was.

23        Q.   To what unit and what was your position?

24        A.   I was mobilised into the Zvornik Brigade in Malesic.  There was a

25     battalion there, as well as my company.  We were tasked with defending

Page 26144

 1     the village.

 2        Q.   Did you command a company in July 1995?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   Do you recall having given a statement to Drago Nikolic's Defence

 5     team on the 6th of April 2008?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   In the course of your preparation for the testimony, in the

 8     presence of our investigator, Mr. Keselj, did you have occasion to reread

 9     your statement?

10        A.   I did.  I'm familiar with it.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Even though there are so many hundreds

12     of miles apart, he is answering your questions too quickly.  So that

13     creates difficulties for our interpreters.

14             Mr. Radic, if you could possibly wait a little bit before you

15     answer Ms. Nikolic's questions, so that you give the interpreters a

16     chance to translate to us in English and French.  Thank you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Pursuant to Rule 92 ter, I will

19     read out the entire statement of this witness since it is brief.

20             During the war, and in July 1995, I was commander of the

21     3rd Company, 2nd Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade.  My deputy was Petko

22     Tomic from Malesic.  The battalion command was in Malesic.  The battalion

23     commander was Sreco Acimovic from Rocevic.  The battalion had a total of

24     three companies.  The companies were almost constantly at their

25     positions.

Page 26145

 1             In the period after the fall of Srebrenica, due to my departure

 2     in the field, I was replaced by my deputy, Petko Tomic.

 3             In July 1995, after the fall of Srebrenica, I cannot remember the

 4     exact date, the battalion commander ordered me to prepare 12 soldiers

 5     from my company to go in the field on the frontline.  That same procedure

 6     took place in the other two companies, forming a single platoon of about

 7     36 soldiers.

 8             As I only managed to provide 11 soldiers, the battalion commander

 9     ordered me to go with them as the twelfth soldier.  As far as I remember,

10     that platoon headed towards Snagovo on the 13th of July 1995 in the

11     afternoon.  In the evening, we arrived at the Maricici position where we

12     spent the night of the 13th to the 14th of July 1995.  We remained there

13     the following day and one more night.

14             On the 15th of July 1995, around 11.00 a.m., we left that

15     position in Maricici.  There were no combat activities with the BH Army

16     in at that region.  They broke through our lines and left towards

17     Baljkovica.

18             On the 15th of July 1995, when we left the position in Maricici,

19     I thought that we were going back to the battalion; however, the order

20     was to continue towards Baljkovica where we arrived in the afternoon.

21             We were immediately deployed along the frontline.  Those two days

22     were very hard.  There was heavy combat until the 16th of July 1995 when

23     the corridor was opened, and the Muslim forces crossed the defence lines.

24             After the corridor had been opened, we went through the woods

25     towards Caparde, and we stayed there for three more days since we could

Page 26146

 1     not go back towards Zvornik.  Crni Vrh had been sealed off or closed.

 2     Three days later, we returned to the battalion.

 3             All that time while I was at the frontlines, I had no

 4     communication with the 2nd Battalion and the commander, Acimovic.

 5             After the 16th of July 1995, I returned to the battalion, and my

 6     deputy, Petko Tomic, reported what had happened in my absence.  On that

 7     occasion, he did not report anything special, and I here by declare with

 8     full responsibility that my deputy never informed me or mentioned to me

 9     the existence of a telegram from the Zvornik Brigade command requesting

10     men to carry out executions.  I have no knowledge about that from anyone

11     else.  I'm also sure that if something like that had happened, my deputy,

12     Petko Tomic, would have informed me.

13             This concludes my reading of the statement pursuant to Rule 92

14     ter.

15        Q.   Mr. Radic, do you recognise your statement?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   The facts stated therein, are they true and accurate?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do they truly reflect what you would testify before this Tribunal

20     if asked about the events described in your statement?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this point, Your Honour, I seek

23     to tender the statement of witness Milan Radic, number 3D477.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from Prosecution?

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No objection, Mr. President.

Page 26147

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 2             From the other Defence teams?  All right.

 3             The document is being admitted.

 4             Yes.  Do you have any further questions?

 5             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I have a few

 6     additional questions.

 7        Q.   Mr. Radic, how many soldiers were there in your company and where

 8     was it exactly in mid-July 1995?

 9        A.   My company was about 140 strong.  It was in Malesic at the

10     defence lines in the trenches.

11        Q.   How many trenches were there for your company?

12        A.   As far as I can recall, around 14.

13        Q.   While you were at the positions, what was your regular

14     communication of your company with the battalion?

15        A.   We had wire connection.  There was the company command, and we

16     had land lines that we could use to communicate with the battalion

17     command.

18        Q.   Are these induction telephone?

19        A.   Yes, I think that's what they are called.

20        Q.   Did you ever communicate with the battalion command using

21     Motorolas or radio devices?

22        A.   No, I did not.

23        Q.   Did you have a Motorola?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   So you were not using it, if I understood you correctly?

Page 26148

 1        A.   We were not using it because the land line was more secure.

 2        Q.   While your company was at the positions in Maricici in mid-July

 3     in 1995, did you communicate with the battalion command in Malesic?

 4        A.   I had no communication with them.

 5        Q.   In your statement, you say that the battalion commander ordered

 6     that 12 soldiers from your company be sent to some frontlines.  Do you

 7     remember how that particular order was conveyed to you?

 8        A.   I was told that by my signalsman.  It was sent from the battalion

 9     communications department down to the company, and my signalsman at the

10     company conveyed that to me.

11        Q.   At the time, what was the situation like at the frontlines that

12     were held by the part of your company that left towards Malesic?

13        A.   Do you mean Malesic or Maricici?

14        Q.   Maricici?

15        A.   Maricici.  Well, when we left from Maricici, we arrived there in

16     the course of the night.  We were then deployed along the frontline.  We

17     spent the night there.  Perhaps we arrived there around midnight.

18             When the day broke, we stayed another 12 hours; then

19     Mr. Obrenovic came from the Zvornik Brigade command and ordered us to

20     move forward.  My soldiers went towards the left.  On the right-hand

21     side, there were quite many of our soldiers.  We set out, and after some

22     500 metres, the Muslims opened fire upon us.  They were relatively close

23     in the forest, and they clashed with us.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Radic.  This was already described in your

25     statement.  I apologise for interrupting you, but I want to move on to

Page 26149

 1     another topic.

 2        A.   Very well.

 3        Q.   How did you learn of Srebrenica's fall?

 4        A.   While I was in Malesic with the company, people were talking

 5     about it and you could hear it from the media.

 6        Q.   In mid-July, when you were at the frontline, did you have any

 7     information about the situation in other battalions?

 8        A.   I did not.

 9        Q.   During that period, while you were away from your company, do you

10     know whether there was any fighting at the frontlines where the rest of

11     your company had been left?

12        A.   There was none.

13        Q.   How did you learn that?

14        A.   When I returned to the company.

15        Q.   Did your deputy report it to you upon your return, Mr. Tomic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In your statement, you say:  "After the corridor was opened, we

18     went through the woods towards Caparde, and we spent three more days

19     there."  Do you remember when you precisely returned to your company?

20        A.   I can't tell you what the exact date was.  It was a long time

21     ago.  I can't tell you exactly.  We stayed three days in Caparde.  We

22     couldn't go through because the forests around us were full of Muslims.

23     There was a danger of being attacked.

24        Q.   While you were away, who commanded the 3rd Company in the period

25     while you were at the frontlines?

Page 26150

 1        A.   In my company?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   Petko Tomic, my deputy.

 4        Q.   In July 1995, when you returned to your company, what did Petko

 5     Tomic report to you, as far as you can remember?

 6        A.   I remember that when I returned he told me that things were fine,

 7     that there were no attacks, that the trenches are fully manned.  That

 8     would be it.

 9        Q.   What was your relationship with Petko Tomic, the deputy company

10     commander, in the course of July 1995 and afterwards?

11        A.   We were on good terms.

12        Q.   In your statement you say that, upon your return to the

13     battalion, and I quote:  "On that occasion, he didn't report to me

14     anything in particular.  I state with full responsibility that my deputy

15     never of informed me of any telegram for the Zvornik Brigade requesting

16     men to carry out executions."

17             Did you learn anything about the existence of such a telegram

18     from any other battalion member, including the battalion commander,

19     Acimovic?

20        A.   I state with full responsibility that during the time I was at

21     the company, no telegrams of that nature arrived.  Had it arrived, I

22     would have been informed by someone.  I have never heard of that.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  This was already in the statement, Ms. Nikolic.  If

24     you look at paragraph 4 or part 4, the line before the last:  "I have no

25     knowledge about that from anyone else."

Page 26151

 1             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Radic, do you know, by chance, whether the other companies of

 3     your battalion received such a request?

 4        A.   I don't.

 5        Q.   Did you attend a meeting with other company commanders at the

 6     battalion command after your return in July 1995?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Can you remember approximately when was the first time that you

 9     met with the investigators of Drago Nikolic's team?

10        A.   I think about a year and a half ago.

11        Q.   Did they introduce themselves to you on that occasion, and how

12     did they do that?

13        A.   Well, they told me that they were Defence lawyers of Drago

14     Nikolic.  There was Radovan Keselj and a woman called Nevenko, I don't

15     know her last name.  They were the two who -- who contacted me.

16        Q.   Do you mean investigators or Defence lawyers?

17        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, I don't remember how they introduced

18     themselves.  I think they said "investigators."

19        Q.   Do you remember what they asked you when you first met them, if

20     you can remember?

21        A.   Well, they asked me to state my name and to say that I was

22     commander in Malesic.  And after that, we discussed this issue of

23     telegram, whether I had received before I went into the field, whether my

24     deputy had received it to send people.  But I said what I said in my

25     statement, that I had been on the frontline, and that after I had

Page 26152

 1     returned, my deputy told me that nothing of the sort happened and nobody

 2     informed me of anything.

 3        Q.   During July 1995, did you know anything at all about any

 4     prisoners housed in the school in Rocevic?

 5        A.   No, I didn't.  Rocevic is 20 kilometres from Malesic, and I

 6     didn't know anything about that.

 7        Q.   Also, in July 1995, did you know anything about the fact that

 8     these prisoners were later on executed?

 9        A.   No, I didn't.

10        Q.   Do you have any information today about that?

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] ... we have a problem with the ...

12     correct this problem.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is there a problem?  I am not receiving any

14     interpretation.

15             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes.  We don't receive the image

16     anymore.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  In the background, still I'm hearing voices.  I see

18     from the registrar a note that we have -- we don't even have the image

19     anymore.  I can see the image on your monitor, and I have the image

20     myself.

21             Can I ask the witness to repeat what he may have answered to the

22     question put to him by Ms. Nikolic.

23             The question was the following:  "Also, in July 1995, did you

24     know anything about the fact that these prisoners were later on executed.

25             And you said:  "No, I didn't."

Page 26153

 1             Then she asked you:  "Do you have any information today about

 2     those events?"

 3             And what was your answer, sir.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't give any answer due to the

 5     interruptions.  Nowadays, by following the Seselj trials and the

 6     witnesses who testified that is the way through which I heard and learned

 7     about executions.

 8             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Radic, in the event that there was a request to have members

10     of the 2nd Battalion to take part in these executions, would that be

11     something that would -- that you would remember even to this date?

12        A.   Of course, I would, but I wouldn't allow any member of my company

13     to go out there and do such a thing.

14        Q.   Had such a request existed, would your deputy, Petko Tomic,

15     conveyed it to you at that time?

16        A.   I said, if it had existed, he would have certainly conveyed it to

17     me.

18             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no

19     questions for this witness in the examination-in-chief.

20             Thank you, Mr. Radic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.

23             Any of the other Defence teams wish to cross-examine this

24     witness?  I see no reaction.

25             Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 26154

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you,

 2     good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to my learned friends.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 4        Q.   And good morning to you, Mr. Radic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   My name is Kweku Vanderpuye; and on behalf of the Prosecution,

 7     I'm going to put some questions to you in relation to your testimony and

 8     the statement dated 6 April 2008.  If there's anything that I ask you

 9     that is unclear, please let me know so that I can try to rephrase it in a

10     way that we can better understand one another?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I suppose, right off the bat, I want to ask you:  You indicated

13     that you that Major Obrenovic came at some point while you were in

14     Maricici and ordered you to move on, and I just want to get from you at

15     approximately what time it was that that occurred?

16        A.   Around 1.00 in the afternoon.

17        Q.   Did you personally see Major Obrenovic?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   Thank you for that.  Now, Petko Tomic was your deputy company

20     commander in July 1995; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And I think you indicated on direct examination that you have

23     since remained on good terms?

24        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

25        Q.   And have you spoken to Petko Tomic about the events of July 1995,

Page 26155

 1     and specifically about the telegram, the prisoners, the school,

 2     et cetera?

 3        A.   Well, we didn't because we had no knowledge of the existence of

 4     any telegram, so there was nothing to discuss.  We never received any

 5     telegram, and we also didn't hear anything about the school in Rocevic.

 6        Q.   Are you familiar with what Petko Tomic has said about the

 7     telegram, about the prisoners, and the school, and Rocevic?

 8        A.   Well, he probably said that he also did not receive any telegram.

 9     I suppose this is what he stated.  I don't know.

10        Q.   Did you speak to Petko Tomic at all regarding these matters prior

11     to your discussion -- or rather, prior to your statement of 6 April?

12        A.   No, I didn't.

13        Q.   Okay.  And when was the last time you spoke to Petko Tomic?

14        A.   Petko Tomic is even today here with me.

15        Q.   All right.  Did you speak to him this morning?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And is it your testimony, then, that you've never spoken to Petko

18     Tomic about your contacts with the Defence or his contacts with the

19     Defence; that is, the Nikolic Defence in this case?

20        A.   No.  We are just good friends.  We spend time together.  That's

21     it.

22        Q.   When was the first time you became acquainted with the idea that

23     a telegram was sent to the 2nd Battalion in July 1995, calling for the

24     formation of an execution squad?

25        A.   I heard that from the investigators who came to see me and to ask

Page 26156

 1     for my statement.  They asked me about this telegram, and that was 18

 2     months ago.

 3        Q.   And when you met with them the first time, you told them that you

 4     had no information about a telegram or prisoners at the school or the

 5     fact that they had been executed; isn't that correct?

 6        A.   I didn't tell them anything because I didn't know anything either

 7     about the telegram or about the school.

 8        Q.   And that was 24th March 2007?

 9        A.   Well, more or less.  I do not recall the exact date, but that was

10     a year and a half ago.

11        Q.   All right.  You then met with them again on 23rd June 2007; do

12     you remember that?

13        A.   I cannot recall any dates.

14        Q.   All right.  You remember that you met with them on three

15     occasions, don't you?

16        A.   Yes, I think so.

17        Q.   All right.  Well, what I'm referring to is the second of those

18     three occasions.  The date that we have and been provided with is 23rd

19     June 2007.  Now, in relation to the second time that you met with the

20     Defence, did you provide them with any information different than you

21     provided them with the first time?

22        A.   No, it was all the same.  Whatever is written in my statement,

23     that is how it was.

24        Q.   With respect to the second time you were interviewed, were you

25     asked any questions different from the questions you were asked on the

Page 26157

 1     first occasion, with respect to your knowledge of the events in Rocevic

 2     in July 1995?

 3        A.   No, they didn't.

 4        Q.   Did they provide you with any information at that time?

 5        A.   Yes, they did [as interpreted].

 6        Q.   I'm sorry.  Did you say, "Yes, they did"?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   All right.  On the first occasion that you met with the Defence,

 9     what did the investigators tell you?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse, with our permission, your client has

11     left the courtroom for a short while.  I take it we can proceed?

12             MR. JOSSE:  We can, Your Honour.  Thank you very much for

13     alerting me.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

15             Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

16             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this question was

17     already put to the witness in direct examination, and he gave an answer

18     to it.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I think I'm entitled to ask the

21     question because it's cross-examination, even if it was asked on direct.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I take it if it's leading you to

23     another question, then, yes; but, otherwise, no.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   What information -- what did the investigators tell you

Page 26158

 1     concerning these events on the first occasion that you met with them?

 2        A.   I told them that I was the company commander.  They asked me if I

 3     had received any telegram.  I had already told them that I never received

 4     it in terms of sending men to execute the Bosniaks.  That was while I was

 5     on the line.  And when I went into the field, my deputy, Petko Tomic,

 6     replaced me, and he repeated that he didn't receive any telegram either.

 7        Q.   All right.  Well, did they tell you what form the telegram came

 8     in?

 9        A.   Well, it never arrived.

10        Q.   What I want to focus you on, if I may, is what information was

11     provided to you by the investigators that came to see you on the first

12     occasion you met with them.  So what I would like to know is what did

13     they tell you in particular about this telegram, such as, what form it

14     was in.  Did they tell you that?

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

16             Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

17             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] This witness has been asked two or

18     three times in the same manner and about the same issue, and he gave the

19     answer that he is capable of giving.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is different.  This is a different kind of

21     question.  It specifically refers to whether it was put to the witness

22     the form of this telegram and other details.

23             So please, if you could answer the question, please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They persistently asked me whether

25     I had received the telegram while I was in the company, and my answer was

Page 26159

 1     always no, in any form or shape.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 3        Q.   All right.  Did they tell you when it was this telegram was

 4     supposedly -- supposed to have arrived?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did they tell you whether or not the telegram was transmitted by

 7     radio or by telephone; that is, hard wire?

 8        A.   I'm telling you that they only asked me if I had received this

 9     telegram.  I said I didn't, and they didn't ask me anything else about

10     it.  I cannot be asked questions about something that I never received.

11        Q.   Okay.  How long did you meet with the investigators on the first

12     occasion?

13        A.   Well, between half an hour and an hour.

14        Q.   Okay.  And you met with them after that on two other occasions?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And in relation to the second occasion, you said that the content

17     essentially of the interview was the same; right?

18        A.   The same, yes.

19        Q.   Same questions, same answers, same information; right?

20        A.   Yes, and that is when I gave my statement.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please turn off his microphone

22     when he is not speaking.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I will.  Thank you.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Thank you.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:

Page 26160

 1        Q.   The information that we have is that you met with the Defence on

 2     three separate occasions, and on the third occasion is the date of your

 3     statement which was April 6th.  Do you have that recollection?

 4        A.   I remember these two or three occasions, but I cannot tell you

 5     exactly how many times.  Approximately three times, I'm not sure, but

 6     that's what I think.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you would agree that, as a company commander,

 8     it's important to know about the disposition of your troops in any given

 9     time; right?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   You had 140 troops and they were in roughly 14 trenches, I think

12     you said?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And it's important as a commander, isn't it, to know how many you

15     have, how many troops you have, where they are, what they are doing, and

16     especially when they are placed in a condition of heightened readiness;

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you need to know this as a commander because that information

20     is essential to your ability to command those troops?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   It's vital to their being able to carry out tasks that they are

23     assigned; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   It's also important to the broader interests of the brigade;

Page 26161

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And it's equally important to the deputy commander of a company;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And, as a commander, it's important that you know about anything

 7     that could threaten the positions that are manned by your company; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  We had our area of responsibility, there were 14 trenches,

 9     and the crucial thing for me was to guard this line within my area of

10     responsibility.

11        Q.   And in terms of securing that area of responsibility, it's

12     important, of course, that you know what the movements of the enemy are,

13     their number, their location and so on; right?

14        A.   Well, we are far away from one another so we couldn't know their

15     movements and their numbers because the line that separated us was --

16     made the distance between us about two kilometres.

17        Q.   All right.  Now, your company was made up of soldiers that were

18     from villages --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

20             Ms. Nikolic.

21             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Just one intervention regarding the

22     transcript.  On page 21, line 3, the witness said that they were

23     separated in trenches, and this was not recorded in the transcript, more

24     than two kilometres.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.

Page 26162

 1             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Your company was made up of soldiers that were primarily from

 4     villages in and around Rocevic; is that right?

 5        A.   No.  My company was made up of the residents of Malesic.  There

 6     was no person from Rocevic in my company.  They had their own company.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  I think you indicated that Malesic

 8     was about 20 kilometres or so from Rocevic; right?

 9        A.   Approximately, yes.

10        Q.   When you returned to the brigade or -- I'm sorry, you returned to

11     the battalion after the 16th -- first of all, do you recall about what

12     date -- how many days after the 16th that you returned?

13        A.   I said that I left approximately on the 13th and that I came back

14     on the 16th or the 17th, which means that I spent five days in the field.

15        Q.   When you came back, you spoke to Petko Tomic, your deputy; right?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And you were informed at that time that there had been no

18     fighting while you were away; correct?

19        A.   Not in our area of responsibility because our company was

20     deployed to guard the trenches.

21        Q.   He told you that things were fine; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   He told you that the trenches were manned; right?

24        A.   Yes.  Some men were in the trenches and those who were not on

25     duty were allowed to go home on leave.

Page 26163

 1        Q.   Did he tell you that the battalion had been placed on a

 2     heightened state of readiness while you were away?

 3        A.   No, he didn't.

 4        Q.   Did you ever learn that the battalion had been placed on a

 5     heightened state of readiness at any time, while at any time following

 6     the fall of Srebrenica up until your return on the 16th or 17th?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Now, you said that he didn't tell you that prisoners had been

 9     brought to the school in Rocevic; correct?

10        A.   He didn't tell me anything, and I have no idea about that.

11        Q.   Do you know somebody by the name of Milan Nikolic?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Are you familiar with who the president of the local commune in

14     Rocevic was in July 1995?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Did you then or have you heard since -- well, let me ask you a

17     different way.  Did you then or have you heard since about a woman that

18     was injured, I believe shot, in and around the time that you were away

19     from your battalion in July of 1995?

20        A.   Where?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to state the ethnicity of this woman?

22     I think it would help the witness.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I believe she was a Serb woman.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I believe so, too, but I don't know whether

25     the witness was expecting this question.

Page 26164

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Did you hear about a Serb woman that was shot and injured in and

 3     around Rocevic during the time that you were away from your battalion in

 4     July 1995?

 5        A.   No, I did not.

 6        Q.   Do you know somebody by the name of Petko Tanaskovic?

 7        A.   I don't recall that name, no.

 8        Q.   Were you then or do you now have information that prisoners were,

 9     in fact, brought to the school in Rocevic and that, in fact, some of them

10     were killed there?

11        A.   As I said, I only heard about it when the Vojislav Seselj trial

12     was taking place.  Some witnesses mentioned that, but, otherwise, I have

13     no other information about the event.

14        Q.   And you were never told by your deputy, Petko Tomic, that there

15     were prisoners taken from the school and executed in Kozluk; right?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   You said before that you would never have allowed anybody in your

18     company to participate in an execution.  That's right, isn't it?

19        A.   I can state that, with full responsibility, I would never have

20     allowed anyone from my company to go and execute any prisoners.  I claim

21     that such a thing did not happen.

22        Q.   Were you ever made aware that 2nd Battalion soldiers actually

23     participated in the detention and execution of these prisoners in

24     Rocevic?

25        A.   No, I was not.  I didn't learn anything about Rocevic.

Page 26165

 1        Q.   Do you know somebody by the name of Milorad Ristanovic?  He is a

 2     soldier in the 3rd Company of the 2nd Battalion.

 3        A.   Milorad Ristanovic, yes.

 4        Q.   Does he go by the name of also "Beco"?

 5        A.   No, that's not the one.  That's not the one.  I know Milorad

 6     Ristanovic.  He went to America, he lives there now, but he is not the

 7     one.

 8        Q.   Did you ever hear that he was at Kozluk and participated in the

 9     execution there?

10        A.   No, no.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic, anyway, what was your objection?

12             Okay.  Go ahead.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Do you know somebody by the name of Ljubo Ristanovic?  He is also

15     a soldier in the 3rd company, 2nd Battalion.

16        A.   No, no.  I don't know a Ljubo Ristvanovic.  I know Stanko

17     Ristanovic, but not a Ljubo.

18        Q.   Well, Ljubo Ristanovic is a member of the 3rd company of the

19     2nd battalion.  His father's name is Pero.  Did you ever hear that he

20     was -- that he was at the execution site in Kozluk?

21        A.   I never heard of such a thing.  I can guarantee you he would

22     never do such a thing.  I know him as a quiet man.  I know that because I

23     can guarantee for those who were at the frontlines.  I don't know what

24     the people were doing while on leave.  However, for this person, I

25     guarantee he would not do such a thing.

Page 26166

 1        Q.   All right.  So you do know who I'm talking about then; right?

 2        A.   We call him Stanko Ristanovic.  I don't know whether his name is

 3     Ljubo.

 4        Q.   All right.  Do you know someone by the name of Dragan Jovic?

 5        A.   No, I don't know.

 6        Q.   Do you know that Dragan Jovic was a member of the 2nd battalion?

 7        A.   But not in my company.

 8        Q.   Not in your company, that's right.  You know who I'm talking

 9     about then?

10        A.   I don't know.  I only know that a person with such a first and

11     last name was not in my company, as far as I can remember.  As to whether

12     he was in the battalion with the 1st or 2nd Company, I don't know.

13        Q.   You never heard that Dragan Jovic, member of the 2nd Battalion,

14     was at the school and at the execution site; is that right?

15        A.   I did not hear of such a thing, I swear.

16        Q.   Do you know somebody called Zoran Simanic?  He is a member of the

17     2nd Battalion, he is in the reconnaissance platoon, and he is the

18     commander.  Do you know him?

19        A.   No, I don't.

20        Q.   You never heard that he was at the execution site either, did

21     you?

22        A.   No, I did not.

23        Q.   Do you know somebody by the name of Radivoje Jekic?

24        A.   No, I don't.

25        Q.   And you have no information that he was involved in these events

Page 26167

 1     at all; right?

 2        A.   I didn't hear of or I was never informed of any of the people

 3     that I know taking part in the executions.  This was far from the place

 4     where I was.

 5        Q.   Thank you for that, sir.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I have just a few questions in

 7     the area of the communications of the battalion, if I could -- I think

 8     you indicated the break time is --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  How long do you expect you need more?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think maybe ten minutes.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then we'll have the break now.

12             May I ask our registrar over there how long, after this witness

13     finishes the testimony, how much time do they require over there,

14     technically, in particular, to get the next witness and start him off.

15             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] The next witness is here, so we

16     can ...

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you repeat, please.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] The next witness is here, so we

19     can start immediately after we finish with this witness.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then we'll have the break now.

21             You will continue immediately after, Mr. Vanderpuye, and we start

22     with the next witness immediately after that.  Thank you.

23             Twenty minutes.  Thank you.

24                           --- Recess taken at 11.10 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

Page 26168

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I just want to confirm, once more, that you

 2     are receiving me and that the witness is receiving interpretation in his

 3     own language?

 4             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour.  We are

 5     receiving image and sound.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Then we can proceed.

 7             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I will be much

 9     shorter than the ten minutes I had anticipated, I hope.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  And the Trial Chamber will be grateful for that.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   Mr. Radic, you know that your commander, Sreco Acimovic,

13     testified in this case between the 20th and the 22nd of June of this year

14     publicly, and that Mitar Lazarevic, the general affairs clerk of the

15     2nd Battalion command, testified in this case on the 26th of June 2007.

16             Are you saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you never heard

17     about the fact that they testified in these proceedings about the

18     incidents or the occurrences in Rocevic and in Kozluk with regard to

19     these Muslim prisoners that were executed?

20        A.   I only recently heard that Sreco Acimovic testified in The Hague.

21     I wasn't particularly interested though.   It was recently that I learned

22     that he was in The Hague.  And as for Mitar Lazarevic, this is the first

23     time I hear it from you.

24        Q.   Well, you didn't learn that Sreco Acimovic had testified through

25     the Seselj case, so when is it that you learned that he testified in this

Page 26169

 1     case?

 2        A.   I didn't know that he testified in this case.  I only know that

 3     he went to testify in The Hague, but I didn't know which case it

 4     concerned.

 5        Q.   When did you hear that, sir?

 6        A.   Perhaps a month ago.

 7        Q.   And from whom?

 8        A.   We were sitting in a bar, and a neighbour of mine told me that he

 9     heard Sreco went there.

10        Q.   What is your neighbour's name, sir?

11        A.   Mida, Milorad Sakotic, I believe.

12        Q.   What did he tell you about what Mr. Acimovic testified?

13        A.   He didn't tell me anything about that.  He only said that he

14     heard, too, that Sreco went to The Hague.  We didn't discuss that any

15     further.  We didn't discuss the reason for his going there.

16        Q.   The Prosecution has information from two witnesses independently

17     placing Milorad Ristanovic, that is, of the 3rd Company, 2nd Battalion;

18     and Ljubo Ristanovic, the 3rd Company, 2nd Battalion, as being involved

19     in these events at the school or at the execution site.

20             Is it your position that you deny any knowledge of members -- of

21     the participation of members of either your battalion or your company in

22     these events?

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

24             One moment, Mr. Radic, one moment.

25             Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

Page 26170

 1             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] The question has already been put

 2     to the witness, and he has answered it on several occasions.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  You wish to comment, Mr. Vanderpuye?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I do.  I asked him whether or not he knew.  I'm

 5     asking him now whether or not he denies that they did.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  We will allow the question being somewhat different

 8     from the previous one.

 9             Please try to stick to the question and answer the question and

10     nothing else, Mr. Radic, please.

11             Do you wish the question to be repeated to you?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Could he please repeat the

13     question.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:

15        Q.   I want to know whether or not you deny that members of your

16     battalion and, in fact, members of your company participated in the

17     events concerning the school and the execution of prisoners in July 1995?

18        A.   I state with full responsibility that I don't know of any people

19     from my company taking part in the liquidations of those Muslims.  I am

20     only referring to the people from my company.  I don't know about the

21     rest of the battalion.  I don't know of a single man from the company

22     going to execute anyone.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have no further questions.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you.

Page 26171

 1             Is there re-examination, Ms. Nikolic?

 2             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it there are no questions from the Bench?

 4     No.

 5             Mr. Radic, we've come to the end of your testimony.  On behalf of

 6     the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having been kind enough to

 7     travel to Belgrade or wherever the videolink testimony is taking place, I

 8     and I also wish you a safe journey back home.

 9             Our registrar will now proceed to get the next witness ready.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

12                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic, do you have any documents that you

14     wish to tender, apart from the statement which has already been admitted?

15             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No other documents.  Thank you,

16     Your Honour.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  You had indicated a series of documents

18     you would have used with this witness, but you haven't used any.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  So you don't have any documents either.

21             So we are finished with the testimony of Mr. Radic, and I think

22     we can proceed with the testimony of Mr. Tomic.

23             Let me just check that he is there.  Yes, he is there.

24                           [The witness appeared via videolink]

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Dobar dan, Gospodine Tomic.

Page 26172

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, I will switch on to English, and I want to

 3     make sure you are receiving interpretation of what I am saying in your

 4     own language.  Do you confirm that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 7             You have been summoned to give evidence by the Defence team of

 8     Mr. Nikolic.  And according to our Rules, before you start your

 9     testimony, you are required to make a solemn declaration in the sense

10     that in the course of your testimony, you will be speaking the truth.

11             The gentle lady sitting next to you will give you the text of the

12     solemn declaration in your own language.  Please read it out aloud so

13     that we can hear you, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I thank you, Mr. Tomic.

17             Ms. Nikolic will introduce herself, will put some questions to

18     you, and after that, we'll proceed with cross-examination, if any.

19             Ms. Nikolic.

20             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           WITNESS:  PETKO TOMIC

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           [Witness testified via videolink]

24                           Examination by Ms. Nikolic:

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Tomic.

Page 26173

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   My name is Jelena Nikolic, attorney at lawyer, appearing on

 3     behalf of Drago Nikolic.  We both speak the same language; therefore, I

 4     would kindly ask you to wait before answering so that the interpreters

 5     would have sufficient time to interpret everything we said and to have a

 6     correct transcript.  Did you understand me?

 7        A.   I did.

 8        Q.   Please statement your first and last name for the record?

 9        A.   Petko Tomic.  I was born on the 7th of October, 1955, in Malesic.

10        Q.   Do you reside in Malesic?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   How long have you lived in Malesic?

13        A.   Fifty-three years, since the day I was born.

14        Q.   Can you tell us what your occupation is?

15        A.   I am a construction machinery operator.

16        Q.   Where are you employed?  What is the name of the company?

17        A.   In Novi Sad --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the name of the

19     company.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you repeat the name of the company, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Backa Put in Novi Sad.  Vojvodina

22     Put is a bigger company that owns Backa Put.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   For how long have you been working for Backa Put in Novi Sad?

25        A.   Since March 1977.

Page 26174

 1        Q.   How far is Novi Sad from Malesic, the place where you live?

 2        A.   Around 170 kilometres.

 3        Q.   Were you mobilised during the war?

 4        A.   Yes, I was.

 5        Q.   In what unit?

 6        A.   The Zvornik Brigade.

 7        Q.   Were you in any particular battalion or company?

 8        A.   I was in the 3rd Company in Malesic that belonged to a battalion.

 9     I did not change my location during the war.

10        Q.   You are referring to the 2nd Battalion?

11        A.   There were eight battalions there.  I forgot where I was and who

12     commanded what at what time.

13        Q.   Do you remember giving a statement to Drago Nikolic's Defence

14     team in April 2008?

15        A.   I do.  I remember that it was more than a year ago.  I don't know

16     whether it was April, but sometime in the course of last year.

17        Q.   Before going to Belgrade to testify, did you have occasion to

18     reread your statement in the presence of Mr. Radovan Keselj?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   Did you check the date on the cover page of the statement?

21        A.   I think it said the 6th of April.  I don't remember exactly.

22        Q.   2008?

23        A.   Well, yes.

24        Q.   Pursuant to Rule 92 ter, I will read out your entire statement,

25     Mr. Tomic, given that it is short.

Page 26175

 1             MS. NIKOLIC:  My name is Petko Tomic, and I live in Malesic near

 2     Zvornik.  I have been employed for almost 30 years in Novi Sad in

 3     Vojvodina Put in Serbia.  During the war, I was a member of the

 4     3rd Company, 2nd Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade.  I was a deputy

 5     commander of the 3rd Company, 2nd Battalion.

 6             The commander of the 3rd Company was Milan Radic, and the

 7     commander of the 2nd Battalion was Sreco Acimovic.

 8             The battalion command was located in Malesic, and our company was

 9     away from Malesic at the positions that is the combat lines.

10             I remember that in July 1995, after the fall of Srebrenica, a

11     group of 12 men from our company, including Commander Radic, received an

12     order to go to the positions in order to secure the lines that were

13     rather long.  They were sent to Maricici.

14             When Commander Radic departed, I remained at the company as his

15     deputy.  We were placed at a high level of readiness, and we were at our

16     usual positions.  We stayed on the line day and night since the order was

17     to defend the line due to the proximity of the enemy.

18             During that period after the fall of Srebrenica, while I was

19     replacing Commander Radic who was absent, at the company I was not

20     contacted by the battalion commander, Sreco Acimovic, either by phone or

21     personally, in order to inform me about the existence of any telegram.

22             I have never heard about the existence of any telegram from the

23     Zvornik Brigade command requesting men to participate in executions.  I

24     have no knowledge about that.

25             The position where I was is far from the rear.  I have no

Page 26176

 1     knowledge about those events, and I never heard that anyone exerted any

 2     pressure on the battalion commander, Sreco Acimovic, to select men to

 3     carry out executions.

 4             With this, I conclude the reading of the statement pursuant to 92

 5     ter rule.

 6        Q.   Mr. Tomic, do you recognise your statement?

 7        A.   Yes, entirely.

 8        Q.   Are the facts contained in your statement true?

 9        A.   Yes, they are.

10        Q.   Do they fully reflect what you would have testified before this

11     Tribunal had you been asked to describe the events concerned?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The quality of the sound

13     via videolink is very bad.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know if we can do anything about that,

15     certainly not from our side, but our registrar there perhaps can have a

16     chat with the technicians.

17             If I could ask the interpreters what the problem really is.  Is

18     it low volume?  What is it?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  It's barely audible at times, but there's a lot

20     of background noise.  I don't know where it's coming from.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you for that information.  I suppose

22     Ms. Alvarez has heard that, if she can give us feedback whether she can

23     improve the reception.

24             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, I'll see if I can.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go on in the meantime.

Page 26177

 1             The witness if he could kindly speak into the microphone, and the

 2     technicians try to eliminate any background noise that there might be.

 3             You had a question, Mr. Tomic, which was a simple one.  I'll read

 4     it out for you.  Ms. Nikolic asked you whether the statement, the

 5     statement that was read out, fully reflects what you would have testified

 6     before this Tribunal had you been asked to describe the events concerned

 7     mentioned therein.  Would you have stated the same things in other words?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say the same.  What has

 9     been said, I would repeat that before the Tribunal.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             Back to you, Ms. Nikolic.

12             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for your

13     assistance.

14             At this point, Your Honour, I would like to request the statement

15     of this witness, 3D478, to be admitted into the evidence.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, we would like to defer the

18     Prosecution's position with respect to this statement.  My colleague,

19     with respect to the last witness, essentially took the witness through

20     the contents of the entire statement.  To the extent that she does that

21     in this case, we would be objecting to the admission of the statement as

22     cumulative and unnecessary under the circumstances.  But if it covers new

23     matter, we will have no objection.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm sure that Ms. Nikolic has got the message.  We

25     didn't stop her before.  I suppose she will restrict herself to putting

Page 26178

 1     questions that haven't been already answered in the statement that she

 2     wishes to tender.

 3             Ms. Nikolic.

 4             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  I'm going to

 5     ask the questions that were not asked when the witness gave his

 6     statement, and also the ones that I believe need and require additional

 7     clarification.

 8        Q.   Mr. Tomic, how many soldiers were there in your company and in

 9     how many trenches, if you remember?

10        A.   I think that there were 14 trenches and about 130 or 140

11     soldiers, but it varied afterwards.

12        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how did your company

13     communicate with the battalion command?

14        A.   Well, we had those telephones, induction telephones.

15        Q.   Did you communicate with the battalion command perhaps via radios

16     or Motorola or anything else?

17        A.   Well, there were radio sets for a time, and there were Motorolas

18     as well.

19        Q.   How often did you use radio sets or Motorolas?

20        A.   Well, I don't know.  We had -- the two of us had the Motorolas,

21     or three of us, and we always carried them with us.  We also had radio

22     sets.  The communications officer used it to communicate sometimes.

23     Sometimes we had them, sometimes we didn't during the war.

24        Q.   What devices did you use more often among those that you just

25     named?

Page 26179

 1        A.   The induction telephones.

 2        Q.   How did you learn about the fall of Srebrenica?

 3        A.   Well, when Commander Radic called me, I was off duty.  He called

 4     me because he had to go to re-enforce the line, and that something had

 5     happened a couple of days later.  We heard that Srebrenica had fallen,

 6     but I cannot remember now who I heard it directly from.  It was in the

 7     media too.

 8        Q.   Did you receive any information directly from your battalion

 9     command in your company about the fall of Srebrenica?

10        A.   Not on that day; however, the command heard about this later.

11        Q.   Did they inform your company about this?

12        A.   They only told the company to reinforce the line because the

13     enemy was close and might attack our combat line.

14        Q.   Did you receive any information about the movement of the BH Army

15     column retreating from Srebrenica?

16        A.   Well, when Radic went to the frontline, we heard that they were

17     withdrawing from Srebrenica over there, but that was the next day.

18        Q.   Do you remember who told you that or how you received this

19     information?

20        A.   Well, I believe that most probably we, Radic and I, spoke; but

21     I'm not sure.  It was a long time ago.

22        Q.   Did you have any information about the situation in other

23     battalions in those days in July of 1995?

24        A.   No, I didn't, because children were right behind our lines and

25     all I took care of was my company.

Page 26180

 1        Q.   Were you involved in any combat activities in July 1995 along the

 2     line defended by your company?  I'm referring to the period when

 3     Srebrenica fell.

 4        A.   Well, there was just sporadic shooting, nothing serious.

 5        Q.   Do you know where the closest battles were?

 6        A.   Well, in that part, Maricici and this area, Baljkovica.

 7        Q.   Did you spoke on the phone, on this induction phone, with

 8     Commander Acimovic in mid-July 1995?

 9        A.   No.  I never had an opportunity to talk to him directly over the

10     phone.

11        Q.   Do you remember when your company commander, Milan Radic,

12     returned from the line?

13        A.   He was on the line four or five days; but at what time and when,

14     I don't know.

15        Q.   While Radic was on the line in Maricici, did you have any

16     contacts with him?

17        A.   Yes, a couple of times.

18        Q.   And what did you talk about?

19        A.   Just about the situation over there and the situation where we

20     were.

21        Q.   And what did you tell your commander, Radic, on that occasion?

22        A.   That nothing was happening, that we were on the line one hundred

23     percent, and that we are expecting something to happen any day.

24        Q.   When your commander returned from Maricici, did you report to him

25     about the events in the company?

Page 26181

 1        A.   Well, we just talked normally about what had been happening while

 2     he was away and so on and so forth.

 3        Q.   During July 1995, what were relations between you and your

 4     commander, Milan Radic, on the 3rd Company?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't get the answer from the

 6     witness.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Could you repeat your answer, please, Mr. Tomic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] we were always on good terms.

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation].

10        Q.   Let me ask you a general question.  How did you receive

11     information from the battalion command in your company?  Was it in

12     writing or orally?

13        A.   Orally, for the most part.

14        Q.   In July 1995, were you present in mid-July at any meeting with

15     other company commanders at the battalion command headquarters where the

16     telegram was discussed and where Mitar Lazarevic was?

17        A.   I don't know where Mitar was, and I didn't attend these meetings.

18        Q.   And are you aware of any such meeting being held at the battalion

19     command with other company commanders and deputy commanders?

20        A.   I have no knowledge about that.

21        Q.   Do you recall meeting the investigators of Drago Nikolic's

22     Defence team, and can you tell us approximately when that took place?

23        A.   Well, I think about a half -- a year and a half ago for the first

24     time.

25        Q.   Did they introduce themselves to you?

Page 26182

 1        A.   Yes, they did.

 2        Q.   What did they tell you who they were?

 3        A.   They told me they were investigators, they told me their names,

 4     and then they asked me a couple of questions on that occasion.

 5        Q.   Do you remember the questions that you were asked on this first

 6     occasion - I mean the investigators from Drago Nikolic's Defence team -

 7     and can you tell us where the meeting took place?

 8        A.   It took place in my house, and the first thing that they asked me

 9     was about this telegram and whether I knew of it; and they also asked me

10     whether we had singled out men to go and carry out some executions.

11        Q.   Did they ask you about what you know about prisoners and the

12     events in Rocevic?

13        A.   Yes, they did.

14        Q.   Let us go back to July 1995.  I'm asking you if you knew about

15     the prisoners held in the school in Rocevic in July 1995?

16        A.   I didn't know anything at all.  This became known maybe a month

17     later because this is some ten kilometres away.

18        Q.   Also, in July 1995, did you know anything about these prisoners

19     being executed in Kozluk?

20        A.   No, I didn't.  It might have been six months later, or one year

21     later, that I heard of it on TV and read about it in the press.

22        Q.   Can you just tell us how far were your -- how far apart were your

23     company and the battalion command?

24        A.   Approximately one kilometre or maybe one and a half kilometres.

25        Q.   Did you hear and do you know --

Page 26183

 1             MS. NIKOLIC:  [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, my

 2     colleague is warning me that we might have a correction for the

 3     transcript.

 4        Q.   Excuse us, Mr. Tomic.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Microphone.

 7             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Page 41, line 12:

 8     These prisoners were being kept at the school in Rocevic, or held.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Instead of "health," it's "held."

10             Thank you.  Let's proceed.

11             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you know Vojo Lazarevic?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Did you see Vojo Lazarevic in the course of July 1995?

15        A.   I can't recall, but it is quite likely that we saw each other.

16        Q.   When you did, did you exchange a few words?

17        A.   I don't know --

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

19             Mr. Vanderpuye, yes.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, the witness said that it was

21     quite likely that they saw each other and there's no indication -- I

22     think the next question is without foundation.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  You are right.  You can rephrase the

24     question:  "When you met or when you saw each other, did you exchange any

25     conversations?"

Page 26184

 1             So, Mr. Tomic, if you've been following, you said that you can't

 2     recall, but it is quite likely that you did see Mr. Lazarevic, Vojo

 3     Lazarevic, in the course of July 1995.  When you saw him, did you speak

 4     to him or did he speak to you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see Vojo frequently.

 6     Whether I saw him in July --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  We are talking about July 1995 only.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly.  It is

 9     very likely.  Since he was at the battalion command, it is quite likely

10     that we saw each other.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  The question is not only whether you maybe saw each

12     other but whether you spoke to each other on that occasion when you

13     probably saw each other?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  About what?  I don't know.  We

15     always talked as friends.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  All right.

17             Let's move, Ms. Nikolic, please.

18             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   In those friendly conversations, did you ever hear from Vojo

20     Lazarevic that he sent a request for the 2nd Battalion that their

21     soldiers take part in the execution of prisoners?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Did you ever hear anything of the sort in July 1995 from Mitar

24     Lazarevic?

25        A.   No.

Page 26185

 1        Q.   Had such a request been made, would you have mentioned it to your

 2     company commander, Milan Radic?

 3        A.   Certainly.

 4             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  At this

 5     point, I have no further questions for the witness.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 7             Do any of the other Defence teams wishes to cross-examine this

 8     witness?  I hear no response.

 9             Mr. Vanderpuye, Prosecution?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  How long do you think you have.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would guess about a half an hour, maybe

13     shorter.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  You don't think you can restrict it to 15 minutes?

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'll try.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Okay.  Thank you.  You will be doing one of

17     us a favour in other words, because after 12.30 we have a problem.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  May I proceed, yes?

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, of course.  Thank you.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Tomic.  My name is Kweku Vanderpuye, and on

22     behalf of the Prosecution, I will put some questions to you in relation

23     to your statement in your direct testimony.  If there's anything that I

24     ask you that is unclear to you, please let me know and I will try to

25     rephrase it in a way that we can better understand one another.  Okay?

Page 26186

 1        A.   That's fine, and good afternoon to you, too.

 2        Q.   Good afternoon.  Sir, according to your statement, you were

 3     interviewed by the Defence?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You were interviewed by the Defence on three occasions:

 6     24th March 2007, 23rd June 2007, and 6th of April 2008.  Is that right?

 7        A.   It is.

 8        Q.   And you are aware that those are the same dates that your

 9     commander, Milan Radic, was interviewed by the Defence, about these same

10     events; right?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   And you know that because you've spoken to Mr. Radic about his

13     interviews with the Defence; right?

14        A.   We did talk in the meantime because we are from the same village.

15        Q.   Well, I'll not talking about casual conversation.  I'm talking

16     about specifically the fact that Mr. Radic was interviewed by the

17     Defence, that you were interviewed by the Defence, and that you two spoke

18     about those interviews?

19        A.   No.  Since I work in Novi Sad, I also work on most Saturdays;

20     therefore, I arrive late in the evening on Saturday and I depart the day

21     after on Sunday.  Therefore, I do not move about the village much.

22        Q.   All right.  So you've not spoken to Mr. Radic about the fact that

23     you were interviewed by the Defence; is that your testimony?

24        A.   No, not then.  Later, we talked in a bar.  I heard from him that

25     he was visited by the Defence, and then I told him they visited me, too.

Page 26187

 1     That was the extent of our conversation that we had in the village.

 2        Q.   So you never spoke about what it was you were interviewed

 3     concerning; is that your testimony?

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

 5             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, an intervention for

 6     the transcript.  Page 45 line 19, the witness said they spoke in the bar,

 7     not in the village.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  But please, next time, wait until he

 9     finishes answering the question, and then you can raise the transcript.

10             This applies to everyone.  Try to avoid interrupting the process,

11     if it's just a transcript error, until at least the question has been put

12     and answered.

13             Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.  You probably need to repeat the question to

14     the witness.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   You never spoke with Mr. Radic about what it was you were

17     interviewed concerning by the Defence; is that your testimony, sir?

18        A.   It is, yes.  We only talked about the fact that we were both

19     visited by the investigators, and they were only asking questions about

20     the telegram.

21        Q.   All right.  So you did discuss the telegram with Mr. Radic, that

22     time you met him in the bar?

23        A.   Yes, we did afterwards.

24        Q.   And I take it that you know that he said that he wasn't aware of

25     any such telegram; right?  You knew that after you met with him and spoke

Page 26188

 1     with him?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.  We heard about the telegram from the media and the

 3     stories which were going around after the events had taken place.  It was

 4     last year that we discussed it.

 5        Q.   Now, I believe you said that you heard about the prisoners in the

 6     school and the events concerning those prisoners, their execution, and so

 7     on, about a month after the fact; is that right?

 8        A.   Well, I said a month or two months later or maybe a fortnight

 9     later; but, in any case, afterwards.

10        Q.   All right.

11        A.   Maybe even up to half a year.

12        Q.   So anywhere from a fortnight after to about a half a year; is

13     that your testimony?

14        A.   Well, yes, yes, more or less.  I can't recall everything.  It's

15     been a long time.

16        Q.   And at the time that you learned about these events, your

17     commander also learned about these events; right?

18        A.   I don't know.

19        Q.   Well, weren't you with your commander immediately following these

20     events after the 16th or 17th of July 1995 on out?

21        A.   No, no.

22        Q.   All right.  And the two of you never discussed what you learned

23     in the press following these events?

24        A.   I didn't understand the question.

25        Q.   You never discussed with your commander --

Page 26189

 1        A.   Which two?

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you and your commander.  You

 3     never discussed with your commander what you learned about the events

 4     that occurred in Rocevic in July 1995 when or close to when you first

 5     learned about it?

 6        A.   I can't tell you.  Since I was deputy company commander, I wasn't

 7     with the commander all the time.  We just met on that he occasion, and it

 8     is my company commander that he communicated with, not myself.

 9        Q.   All right.  I take it that when you found out that there had been

10     executions in Rocevic, a fortnight or so after the events themselves, you

11     spoke about that with your commander.  Are you saying that that never

12     occurred?

13        A.   Excuse me?

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is there a problem or what?

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:

16        Q.   I am sorry, sir.  Did you hear the question?

17        A.   I did.  That conversation never took place within myself and the

18     commander.

19        Q.   Okay.  So, when you found out that there had been executions

20     anywhere from 14 to 20 kilometres from your positions manned by your men,

21     you never brought that to the attention of the commander even though you

22     heard about it in the press.  Is that what you are saying?

23        A.   No.  I'm trying to say that I talked to the commander only in

24     exceptional circumstances if my "komandir" was absent.  I had no

25     communication with the "komandant."

Page 26190

 1        Q.   Sorry.  When I am talking about the "commander," I'm talking

 2     about Milan Radic, just so you know who we're talking about.  I apologise

 3     if I've caused some confusion.  I mean Milan Radic.

 4        A.   Yes, that's what you mean.  Then there was a mistake.

 5        Q.   And you spoke to him about the events that you learned concerning

 6     what occurred in Rocevic when you learned about it; right?

 7        A.   Well, I don't know if I talked to him.  It was almost at the end

 8     of the war, and I left for Novi Sad immediately afterwards to work.

 9        Q.   Sir, I'm given to understand from your testimony that you have no

10     information or had no information at the time that there were prisoners

11     that had been brought to the Rocevic School and that were thereafter

12     detained, transported, and executed in Kozluk; is that the substance of

13     your testimony, sir?

14        A.   My testimony is that I didn't know at all that they were held at

15     the school.  I didn't know they were executed until half a year later or

16     so.  I can't remember when it was that I heard about it.

17        Q.   Did you learn at any point, sir, that members of the 3rd Company

18     of the 2nd Battalion, your unit, were involved in the detention,

19     transportation, or execution of those prisoners?  Were you aware of that,

20     sir?

21        A.   That didn't take place and no one from the 3rd Company took part.

22        Q.   Do you recognise the name of Milorad Ristanovic and Ljubo

23     Ristanovic?  Do you recognise those names, sir?  They are both in the

24     3rd Company of the 2nd Battalion, your unit.

25        A.   Yes, I know them.

Page 26191

 1        Q.   Those two individuals have been identified independently as

 2     having to do with the events at the school and/or the execution.  Do you

 3     know anything about that?

 4        A.   I can't tell you.  This Ljubo Ristanovic was in a different unit.

 5     Milorad Ristanovic, I can't tell you anything about him.  I don't believe

 6     that happened that way.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise the name Ljubo Ristanovic, son of Pero?  Do you

 8     recognise that name?

 9        A.   I do.

10        Q.   And you are saying that person wasn't in your unit; right?

11        A.   He was, he was, but only about a year.  Otherwise, I know the

12     man.  Of course, I know him from the village.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Just bear with me for one moment.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] but he certainly did not do that.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I know that it's 12.30.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you have any further questions?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I can go for five more minutes, I think I

18     could be finished.  I don't want to detain anybody.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no.  It's all right.  Let's go on for five more

20     minutes.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  You think you have re-examination so far as least,

23     Ms. Nikolic?

24             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Not for the time being, Your

25     Honour.

Page 26192

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 5        Q.   Sir, this Ljubo Ristanovic that you referred to, do you know how

 6     he is referred to, what his nickname is?

 7        A.   Stanko.  We call him Stanko.

 8        Q.   All right.  And were you aware then or have you become aware that

 9     other members of the 2nd Battalion were also involved in the events at

10     the school and the execution, the transport, I should say, and execution

11     of prisoners in Rocevic?  The execution was in Kozluk.

12        A.   No, I didn't know anything of the sort.

13        Q.   You testified that you did receive communications from the

14     battalion command orally for the most part.  Do you recall that?

15        A.   Via the induction telephone, orally, yes.

16        Q.   And with respect to the communications that you received, it's

17     fair to say that you did occasionally receive them in written form;

18     right?

19        A.   Well, the war lasted for three or four years, and there were

20     eight battalions there.  I don't know which battalion used what at what

21     point in time, and if they used written orders.

22        Q.   Thank you for that, sir, at this point.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  I have no further questions for this

24     witness.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you so much.

Page 26193

 1             Ms. Nikolic?

 2             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it would have

 3     been fair to the witness to determine the framework, temporal framework,

 4     about the battalion communications, but the witness has already answered.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 6             No re-examination, I take it?  Questions?  Questions?

 7             Mr. Tomic, we have no further questions for you which means you

 8     are free to go.  Thank you for having cooperated and come over to give

 9     testimony; and if you have to travel back to your home residence, have a

10     safe journey.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you and I wish all the best

12     to you.  I wish to say good-bye to everyone in the courtroom.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Message received.  Yes.  The

14     communication videolink communication can be terminated now.

15                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic, you had tendered the statement, 92 ter

17     statement.

18             No objection, I take it, now?

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, there isn't, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So it's admitted.

21             No further documents, I take it, either from --

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, sir.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  We stand adjourned until tomorrow.

25             We are going to start with the expert tomorrow, aren't we?

Page 26194

 1             Yes Mr. Josse.

 2             MR. JOSSE:  I know the Court is very anxious to adjourn, but

 3     could I just say the Gvero team have been working very feverishly and can

 4     say that we have no opposition to the 65 ter motion of General Miletic.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you so much.

 6             There also being no opposition from the Prosecution, we can deal

 7     with it tomorrow.  All right.  Thank you.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.36 p.m.

 9                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of

10                           September 2008, at 9.00 a.m.