Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26546

 1                            Thursday, 2 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon, everybody and good afternoon to

 7     you, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Merci madam.  Prosecution today is represented by

11     Mr. Thayer.  Absent amongst the Defence teams is Mr. Nikolic,

12     Mr. Petrusic and Mr. Haynes and Mr. Josse.  No.  Mr. Josse is here.

13             MR. JOSSE:  Yes, I'm here today, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  You are easily provoked Mr. Josse.

15             MR. JOSSE:  It was my fault, I had my hand covering my face.  I

16     was trying to be extremely anonymous and quiet.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So the witness is present.  We are

18     going -- good afternoon to you, Mr. Gavric.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Good afternoon.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are going to finish with your testimony today.

21     Is that correct, Mr. Thayer?

22             MR. THAYER:  Indeed, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, thank you.  Then you can proceed with your

24     cross-examination.

25             MR. THAYER:  And good afternoon to you and Your Honours.  Good

Page 26547

 1     afternoon everyone.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Likewise.

 3                           WITNESS:  MICO GAVRIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:  [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 7        A.   Good afternoon.

 8        Q.   Based on what you told us yesterday, I wanted to follow up on a

 9     couple of points, and to do that I just want to review with you some of

10     the things you said yesterday and make sure that we have your best

11     recollection of some of these events.  Okay?

12        A.   Very well.

13        Q.   Now, yesterday Mr. Bourgon asked you the followed question, and

14     this is page 26508, referring to Colonel Lazic:

15             "Question:  To your knowledge, sir, did this colonel have the

16     authority to order you to fire the guns of the Bratunac Brigade?"

17             And your answer was:  "He arrived with an order.  He had been

18     ordered by someone from the corps that the artillery be used.  That is

19     for certain."

20             And then I asked you the following question, and this was at page

21     26535:

22             "Question:  Now, you testified earlier today that Colonel Lazic

23     arrived with an order, and I just want to clarify that with you.  Is it

24     your testimony that he arrived in person with an order?"

25             And your answer was:  "Colonel Lazic came personally to the

Page 26548

 1     brigade command.  This is why I was trying to remember how that tallied

 2     with his arrival.  It is certain that on that day when my report was

 3     drafted, there was a report sent to the brigade command and I presume he

 4     arrived there personally conveying someone else's order from the corps

 5     command.  Either that, or in the meantime, he was in contact with someone

 6     from the corps but I had no insight into that."

 7             And just to complete this portion of your testimony, you

 8     testified a little while later at page 26540:  "Now, I just realised when

 9     I rewound the whole film, he probably arrived to actually hand over the

10     duties in the Bratunac Brigade on that day."  And then you repeated four

11     pages days later:  "I believe that day Colonel Lazic on behalf of the

12     Drina Corps and carried out the changeover of the brigade commanders."

13             Let me just give you a couple of moments to let the

14     interpretation catch up and let that sink in.

15        A.   Okay.

16        Q.   Do I understand you correctly, sir, that it was only yesterday

17     that you recalled for the first time that Colonel Lazic was present in

18     the Bratunac Brigade on 25 May 1995 because of the changeover ceremony?

19        A.   I can state for sure that Colonel Lazic on that day arrived in

20     Bratunac.  Yesterday, when I told you that I recalled that on the 25th of

21     May 1995 Colonel Blagojevic received his duty, in keeping with that, it

22     is for that reason that he was there since someone on behalf of the

23     command had to be present during the changeover between the commanders.

24     Therefore, I think, although I don't know it for certain, that on that

25     day Colonel Lazic was also the Bratunac Brigade commander since the

Page 26549

 1     brigade was in between commanders at that point in time.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's explore that a little bit, sir.  The shells

 3     that your brigade fired at the safe area were fired at approximately 7.00

 4     p.m. in the evening, 1907 hours to be specific.  Right?  I can show you

 5     the report if you don't remember that time.

 6        A.   I saw that yesterday in the report, but I can't recall it off the

 7     cuff without the report, although I reread the report twice yesterday.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, let's have P216 on e-court, please.  Sir, you've

 9     raised this issue of the handover, so I want to follow up on that with

10     you.  And if I may have the assistance of Madam Usher, I can the e-court

11     version may be somewhat illegible so I would the witness to have the

12     original version.

13             Sir, I'm handing you the handwritten original copy that was

14     drafted by Colonel Blagojevic of this document, as well as the

15     typewritten version of it that went out.  Just ask you to take a look at

16     that.  We can see on the e-court in paragraph 2 the print is a little

17     washed out, that's why I wanted you to be able to look at the original.

18             Do you see paragraph 2?  It might be easier to read the

19     typewritten version, sir.  We have paragraph 1:  "The enemy did not

20     conduct combat operations against our forces."  And in paragraph 2:  "Our

21     forces did not open fire towards the demilitarised zone."  Do you see

22     that, sir?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   And then do you see where it says at 1000 hours, that's 10.00 in

25     the morning; correct?

Page 26550

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   "The transfer of duties of commander of the 1st Bratunac Light

 3     Brigade was carried out in the presence of the Drina Corps commander

 4     Major General Zivanovic and the president of the Bratunac municipal

 5     assembly Mr. Simic."  Do you see that, sir?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   So we can clearly see it was General Zivanovic who was there from

 8     the corps; right?

 9        A.   You are asking me about things I did not need to know and I can

10     only repeat my answer when I was examined by Mr. Bourgon.  He asked me

11     what were the duties of chief of artillery.  I said then that it is a

12     staff officer who in all aspects is subordinated to the brigade

13     commander, merely assisting the commander when commanding his artillery.

14        Q.   Okay.  Sir, well, let me just ask you, do you have any reason to

15     doubt the accuracy of that daily combat report that General Zivanovic was

16     there at 10.00 in the morning for the handover?

17        A.   There is no need for me to argue either way.  As the chief of

18     artillery, it wasn't up to me to follow who was there, who was leaving,

19     who kept notes and who was reporting.  It was someone else's duty in the

20     brigade.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.  We are done with that document.  And again we

22     see that that was sent out at about 4.30 in the afternoon.

23             Now, again, your howitzers fired those shots at 7 minutes after

24     7.00 that meaning.  I'm going to ask you, sir -- do you want to see the

25     report for the time?

Page 26551

 1        A.   There is no need to.

 2        Q.   Okay.  1907 hours, your howitzers fired those shells.  My

 3     question to you, sir, is, do you think that if Colonel Lazic in fact were

 4     there, do you think he was hanging around the Bratunac Brigade command

 5     for nine hours after the changeover ceremony or do you think your memory

 6     might be mistaken about him physically being at the brigade headquarters

 7     at that time?

 8        A.   I suppose you don't think I came here to make up things.

 9        Q.   Sir, I would just ask you to please answer the question that I

10     put to you.

11        A.   I don't think anything of it.  I have no opinion about it.  I was

12     engaged in my duties.  The rest was with some other people who may have

13     been tasked to follow at what time Lazic arrived and where he went.  It

14     wasn't part of my duties.

15        Q.   Well, let me share with you a little bit about what Colonel Lazic

16     told this Trial Chamber about this order.  This is at page 21858 to 59 of

17     the transcript.  He said:  "I did not have the right to order, to issue

18     orders, and this is evident.  I was not an organ who could issue orders.

19     How come I mention -- my name is mentioned with regard to this order

20     given the fact that both of them were professional officers and knew very

21     well that they were not supposed to receive orders from somebody who did

22     not have the right to issue orders.  How and what happened in the

23     operations room and how the duty operations officer passed on the order

24     referring to me and mentioning my name, I really wouldn't know.  I only

25     know that I did not have the right to issue this order."

Page 26552

 1             I then asked Colonel Lazic if he would have been in a position to

 2     pass on as opposed to issuing that order and he replied, this is at page

 3     21860:  "I've said it that I cannot remember such a possibility although

 4     I'm not ruling it out.  I'm not ruling this out but I'm saying that I

 5     can't remember having passed this order personally on.  I may have been

 6     in the operations room when the duty officer was passing on this order

 7     and he may have said something to the effect, 'here you have Colonel

 8     Lazic here, so execute the order.'  That may have happened but I don't

 9     have any recollection of that and that's why my answer was what it was."

10             So bear with me, sir, I just need to complete some of this

11     testimony from Colonel Lazic so you understand where I'm coming from when

12     I put the question to you.  I then asked Colonel Lazic."  Just as a

13     points of clarification, Colonel, as a matter of how the VRS and

14     organised armies operate, isn't it the case that simply as chief of

15     operations and training you would have been in a position to pass on such

16     an order from your superior command to the Bratunac Brigade? "

17             And his answer was:  "I personally believe that if the Main Staff

18     had issued an order to this effect, then the order was passed either to

19     the commander or the Chief of Staff.  I don't believe that somebody would

20     have looked for me to communicate the order to me and to ask for me to

21     pass it on.  That's why I'm saying that it is possible that I was in the

22     operations room and that the duty officer said something to the effect,

23     here, Milenko Lazic is here and that's why my name is mentioned because

24     the two senior reporting officers had to mention somebody who could have

25     passed on the order.  And I personally say and I repeat, I don't know how

Page 26553

 1     this could have occurred because I had not issued the order."

 2        A.   As far as I know and as far as I could tell from the document it

 3     is the 25th of May at 7.10 and I believe it was forwarded at 8.10.  Do

 4     you think that at that point in time we could have been contemplating the

 5     situation nowadays and firing at someone we should not have.  I stand by

 6     what I said that Colonel Lazic was at the Bratunac Brigade command, and I

 7     heard that it was on his orders that fire should be opened.  Whether that

 8     stemmed from the corps command or whether it came from him personally, I

 9     can't say.  Since I wrote that down and since my commander wrote it down

10     and it was his first day on duty, it must be true.  I don't think he

11     would have been crazy enough to write things down that did not actually

12     take place, and fire at things he shouldn't have been.

13        Q.   Now, sir, you just said that "I heard that it was on his orders

14     that fire should be opened."  Who did you hear that from, sir, and when?

15        A.   It must have been his order to the brigade commander, but I can't

16     recall such details.  I'm sorry, I recall many things but I would have

17     shared this had I remembered it.  It is a bit hazy and therefore I can't

18     deny or confirm things I'm not 100 percent sure of.  What I am sure of,

19     however, I will tell you.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let me just make sure that the record is clear.  Is it

21     your testimony that you don't remember who gave you the order to fire

22     those shells on the safe area?

23        A.   First of all, I don't remember whether I ordered this to the unit

24     or whether it was ordered by the brigade commander himself.  That little

25     piece of information is missing from my memory.  Therefore I can't argue

Page 26554

 1     in favour of it.

 2        Q.   Sir, I want to follow-up now on some questions which Mr. Karnavas

 3     put to you during your Blagojevic testimony, after the Prosecution had

 4     shown you the two reports that we are talking about.  And he read to you

 5     an excerpt from a Dutch organisation's report about what was going on

 6     that day to see if that might jog your recollection as to why Colonel

 7     Lazic may have ordered you to shell Srebrenica.  This was at the

 8     transcript page 8609 of the Blagojevic trial.

 9             And this is what he read to you:  "Much of the Bosnian/Serb

10     revenge following the NATO bombing of Pale on 25 and 26 May concentrated

11     on Sarajevo.  But the eastern enclaves were not spared.  This also had

12     repercussions on the situation around Srebrenica.  On 25 May, as

13     immediate retaliation, a number of shells landed close to a school in

14     Srebrenica.  There were one dead and three wounded.  The VRS also opened

15     fire on the southwestern part of the enclave."

16             Now, sir, Mr. Kar navas put the question to you:  "According to

17     the report there was a retaliation.  Does this now cause you to recollect

18     why you might have been ordered by Colonel Lazic to fire the artillery as

19     you so indicate in your report?"

20             Your answer was:  "I can't recall.  I really can't recall that

21     detail.  I'm sure we fired.  I know we were targeted that day from a tank

22     and that we returned anti-armour fire.  One of our artillery pieces was

23     destroyed.  Some of my men were injured, but I'm sorry, I really can't

24     remember.  I don't know."

25             Now, sir, you've managed to recall some details as you sat here

Page 26555

 1     yesterday, some new details, so I want to know first of all if you stand

 2     by the answer I just read back to you or whether your recollection has

 3     changed regarding the events that Mr. Karnavas recited to you.

 4        A.   My answer stands, the same way I answered Mr. Karnavas.  I don't

 5     recall.  I do remember that there was an accident, that three of my men

 6     were injured and the piece was destroyed.  I know our firing position was

 7     targeted.  As for the rest, I don't remember and I can't state anything I

 8     don't know.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's see if we can refresh or jog your recollection

10     a little bit about the events of that day, what was going on in the

11     brigade and what your particular activities were.  Can we have 65 ter

12     3359, please.  Okay.  Sir, do you see the document in front of you,

13     nothing new, same document we've been talking about?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Now, the first paragraph obviously we discussed yesterday.  I

16     want to turn your attention to paragraphs 2 through 4 of this document.

17     Paragraph 2 indicates that brigade units are ordered to be in full combat

18     readiness.  Work obligation battalion is mobilised and is ready for

19     engagement.  Then it lists where the brigade commanding officers are.

20     One of them is at the command post and some of them are with subordinate

21     units.  It refers to measures being taken pursuant to an order in

22     paragraph 3, and in paragraph 4 it states that the brigade command

23     monitors the situation and is ready to carry out combat activities with

24     its units as situation develops.  Do you see all that there, sir?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 26556

 1        Q.   Now, it's clear from this document, sir, is it not, that

 2     something significant has occurred to place the brigade on full combat

 3     readiness?

 4        A.   I repeat, I remember the day vaguely.  What happened happened and

 5     for me it was a grave moment, and I'm really not able to remember any

 6     further details of it.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Well, this interim combat report went out at 9.10 in the

 8     evening.  The regular combat report that we looked at a few moments ago

 9     when out at about 4.30 in the afternoon, and if you recall, it listed

10     everything as relatively normal or what passes for normal during wartime.

11     The enemy did not conduct combat operations against our forces, our

12     forces did not open fire towards the demilitarised zone.  You remember

13     that language from the regular combat report; correct?

14        A.   Almost every combat report contained that.  Regular combat

15     reports were sent during that period and as I say, this is an interim

16     combat report which was sent because something must have certainly

17     happened after that time.  Otherwise, this interim combat report would

18     not have been drafted in the first place.

19        Q.   That's exactly my point, sir.  Something happened between 4.30

20     and about 9.00 p.m. that night when that interim combat report was

21     issued.

22             Now, there's an order that's referred to at paragraph 3, and I

23     don't suppose you recall just by looking at that and looking back in time

24     what that order was about, do you?

25        A.   This order is an order of a superior command, and it was not for

Page 26557

 1     my eyes.  It was for other people, the security officer, the commander,

 2     some other people were supposed to read it.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's look at 65 ter 3370.  You see the document in

 4     front of you, sir?

 5        A.   I do.

 6        Q.   Please take a moment and read it.  With Madam Usher's assistance,

 7     I'd also like to show you the original because as we can see on the

 8     e-court version, the time stamp has been smudged out.

 9             Now, sir, have you had a chance to read the document?

10        A.   Give me a moment, please.  Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  What we have here is an order dated 25 May 1995 from

12     General Zivanovic, and if you could just look at the time stamp and

13     indicate when that was received and processed?

14        A.   25 May, 10.30.

15        Q.   That is in the evening, sir?

16        A.   It was processed in the evening.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, this document indicates that today at 1558 hours, the

18     forces of the NATO pact have carried out a fire attack against the

19     Jahorinski Potok warehouse and it indicates that General Zivanovic wants

20     to raise the units of the Drina Corps to the highest level of combat

21     readiness.  You see that, sir, in paragraph 1 of the order?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And he says the opening of fire shall be regulated by the Drina

24     Corps through the Grabovica signals table.  My first question to you,

25     sir, is what is the Grabovica signals table, if you know?

Page 26558

 1        A.   I've never seen this order before, so I would not be able to tell

 2     you the meaning of this Grabovica signals table.

 3        Q.   Now, if we look at the last line of the order, it refers to

 4     implementing the relocation of the artillery from the basic firing

 5     positions to reserve firing positions and turning the basic firing

 6     positions into decoy ones.  And this we can see was in fact distributed

 7     to your brigade as well, sir.

 8             Now, you are telling the Court that you don't remember seeing

 9     this order.  My question is, do you recall taking any steps that would be

10     consistent with responding to this order from General Zivanovic?  For

11     example, relocating the artillery in your brigade.

12        A.   I know that at one point an order was issued to make up decoy

13     firing positions, which we did.

14        Q.   Now, I want to show you another document.  It's 65 ter 3788, sir.

15     And I want you to please take a moment and read this document.  When

16     you've had a chance to read it, including the order, please let us know.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think he is ready.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I'm done reading.

19             MR. THAYER:

20        Q.   Now, sir, we have here another order from General Zivanovic,

21     again dated 25 May 1995.  And if we can scroll to the top of the page of

22     the B/C/S, do you see where it says that it was received on May 26th at

23     20 minutes after midnight?

24        A.   26 May, yes.

25        Q.   Now, this document states that the NATO aircraft fired on the

Page 26559

 1     facilities of the VRS and that the VRS responded accordingly with

 2     activities against the selected targets.  If we move to the order, if you

 3     look at paragraph 2 it states:  "In case the UNPROFOR forces continue

 4     with the activities against our military targets and civilian targets,

 5     all corps units have to be in readiness to fire at UNPROFOR checkpoints

 6     and bases."

 7             And if we go down to paragraph 4, referring to the anti-aircraft

 8     assets, "open fire at the UNPROFOR aircrafts pursuant to the

 9     authorisation of the VRS Main Staff..."

10             My question again to you, sir, is does reading this order refresh

11     your recollection at all about the events of 25 May and any actions you

12     took as chief of artillery of the Bratunac Brigade in response to those

13     actions and in response to this order?

14        A.   I have just told you these combat orders that arrived from the

15     corps commander were taken to the brigade command directly.  These combat

16     reports never reached me.  There was no need for them to reach me.

17     Everything that was ordered within the framework of the brigade, what the

18     brigade commander ordered us, we were supposed to implement.  And I'm

19     telling you again that I had men injured, men in hospital, and it's very

20     hard for me to remember any such details.  Those were difficult times for

21     me.

22        Q.   Now, sir, if we may have 3D506 on e-court, please.  I want to

23     show you one more document in connection with this topic.  This is a

24     regular combat report from the Bratunac Brigade dated 26 May 1995.  And

25     we have this language, do you see at paragraph 1:  "Enemy forces did not

Page 26560

 1     carry out any combat activities or provocative actions against our

 2     positions."  Do you see that, sir?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And do you see paragraph 2:  "Combat readiness of our units

 5     complies with measures ordered by the superior command."  Do you see

 6     that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, there's no mention of any tank firing from Budak at your

 9     artillery firing position, is there?

10        A.   This is a report for the 26th of May, and what you are talking

11     about happened on the 25th.

12        Q.   I understand that, sir.  My first question to you is do you see

13     anything here on the 26th, considering this was the day after a very busy

14     day for you, do you see anything in this report referring to any tank

15     fire being levelled at your firing position?  There's nothing in there,

16     is there, sir?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, before you reply to the question, Ms. Fauveau.

18             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I would like to know what the

19     basis for this question is.  I did not hear any evidence from the witness

20     about fire being opened on that day.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. Thayer?  Thank you, Madam Fauveau.

22             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, this is the question I've just put to

23     the witness.  I think the purpose of my question is quite clear.  I think

24     the witness himself just stated that this has to do with the 26th and the

25     firing that he was talking about occurred on the 25th.  And I'm just

Page 26561

 1     trying to establish that there is nothing in the report for the day after

 2     concerning any firing by any tank just in case it didn't make it into the

 3     report on the 25th, which I think the witness will agree also contains no

 4     reference to a tank firing on the brigade --

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop, there is a limit which you shouldn't

 6     exceed and you've just exceeded it now.  You should have stopped at the

 7     end of the previous sentence.  Let me confer with my colleagues.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  We believe that this point has been belaboured a

10     little bit too much.  We don't really see the point of pressing with this

11     question unless you insist, Mr. Thayer --

12             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President --

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- and unless it was a stepping stone for your next

14     question or the one after.  I don't know.

15             MR. THAYER:  It was my last question on this topic and so I'm

16     prepared to move on absolutely.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then I think you can move on.

18             MR. THAYER:

19        Q.   Now, sir, I want to turn your attention to the Krivaja-95

20     operation.  Your brigade no doubt received the warning order and the

21     order for active combat operations from the corps both dated 2 July 1995

22     signed by General Zivanovic.  Do you recall that, sir?

23        A.   All combat orders from the corps came to the brigade commander

24     rather than to the chief of artillery.

25        Q.   And then, certainly the relevant portions of those orders would

Page 26562

 1     be communicated to you as chief of artillery; correct?

 2        A.   No.  There was regular briefing by the brigade commander and if I

 3     was present at those regular briefings, I know that at a certain point in

 4     time the commander went to Vlasenici and I didn't know anything further

 5     until the 5th in the evening or the 6th in the morning.  I can't be sure

 6     of that.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Let's just look at a couple of documents very quickly, I

 8     just want to ask you a couple of questions.  May we have 65 ter 106,

 9     please.  Sir, this is the warning order from the corps regarding

10     Krivaja-95.  If we go to page 2 of the original document, paragraph F,

11     there's a reference to the 5th MAP shall detach all types of artillery

12     weapons that will be engaged in support of the forces carrying out active

13     combat operations.  My only question about this document to you, sir, is

14     what it the 5th MAP?

15        A.   This is the mixed artillery regiment which was on the strength of

16     the Drina Corps.  To be more precise, it was attached to the corps.

17        Q.   Okay.  If we may have 65 ter 107, please.  Sir, what we have here

18     is the order for active combat operations Krivaja-95 from the corps.  If

19     we can go to page 4 of the B/C/S, please, and it's page 5 of the English.

20             Sir, can you see at number 6 under "artillery support" it refers

21     to composition of KAG.  Do you see that, sir?

22        A.   The corps artillery group.

23        Q.   And what is that and what was it composed of?

24        A.   All units engaged in operations had the necessary fire support.

25     The Bratunac Brigade, i.e., the brigade artillery group did not have to

Page 26563

 1     and indeed did not provide any artillery support to these units.

 2        Q.   Well, do you know what the composition of the Drina Corps, the

 3     KAG was?

 4        A.   Those who were engaged in operations, you mean?  I don't know.  I

 5     wouldn't be able to tell you.

 6        Q.   Now, there's a reference here to during preparatory fire to

 7     neutralise the enemy targets as per plan for preparatory fire, and there

 8     are numerous references throughout this combat order to the artillery

 9     plan.  My question to you, sir, is did you ever review that artillery

10     plan for this operation?

11        A.   Two days ago I saw that plan for the first time, if you are

12     referring to this plan under the name Susica, as far as I can remember.

13        Q.   I'm just asking you, sir, with respect to the plan Krivaja-95 do

14     you ever recall seeing the artillery plan for that operation?

15        A.   Do you really think that Krivaja was lowered at such a low level

16     that all of us officers in the brigade were actually aware of it?

17        Q.   My question was simple, sir.  Just yes or no.  Did you see the

18     plan or --

19        A.   No, no, no.

20        Q.   Now, may we have 65 ter 108, please.  We have here, if you can

21     look at the document on your screen, sir, an anti-aircraft order in

22     connection with this operation dated 5 July 1995.  If you look at

23     paragraph 4, do you see the reference to deploying S-2M missiles and

24     there's a specific reference to your brigade.  Do you see that reference

25     it's subpart A, sir?

Page 26564

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   It says:  One S-2 and detachment to be deployed in the

 3     Zagoni-Kokarda area to defend the town of Bratunac and the forces

 4     operating with within the range of the S-2 Ms.  First of all, what is an

 5     S-2M?

 6        A.   Just let me tell you this.  This is an order for anti-aircraft

 7     Defence.  I was the chief of land artillery, not the anti-aircraft

 8     artillery.  And S-2M are devices for anti-aircraft defence which had

 9     crews of two soldiers.  That, I know.

10        Q.   Now, where is this area of Zagoni-Kokarda, sir?

11        A.   This is the area that extends along the defence line of Bratunac.

12     I don't know where exactly they were deployed, but it should with been an

13     elevated point because they had to be independent.  I don't know exactly

14     where they were, but I can suppose that they were somewhere around there

15     in that part of the defence line.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, sir, you have told the Trial Chamber that you didn't

17     receive these orders yourself.  Now, there was immediately a lot of

18     command staff work at your brigade to prepare for these active combat

19     operations; right?

20        A.   We were all surprised when this order arrived and when the

21     operation started.

22        Q.   Okay.  If we may have 65 ter 219, please.  And we will need page

23     9 of both the B/C/S and the English.  Now, sir, as you may have seen when

24     we flashed up the cover of this document, it's the reports and meetings

25     of the Bratunac Brigade.  You are familiar with this document, sir?

Page 26565

 1        A.   I told you already that the first time I learned of the operation

 2     of the attack on Srebrenica on the 5th in the afternoon or the 6th in the

 3     morning.  Here it says that the working meeting was on the 5th of July,

 4     so this is what I told you.

 5        Q.   Right, sir, and if we go back just that one day to the 4th of

 6     July, do you see the "Chief of Staff read the order from the Chief of

 7     Staff of the Drina Corps for full combat readiness of our unit," do you

 8     see that?  That's the first line for the entry for 4 July.

 9        A.   I read it.

10        Q.   Now, were you present for these meetings?

11        A.   I was not present.

12        Q.   Now, you just referred to the 5th of July entry where it

13     indicates the "Chief of Staff will go to the 1st Infantry Battalion to

14     increase the accuracy and direction of artillery fire."  Do you remember

15     that happening, sir, in preparation for the Krivaja-95 operation?

16        A.   All I know about the operation is that we were in the brigade

17     commander's office, we were summoned there and he issued tasks to us.  He

18     said that all chiefs and assistant commanders should draft proposals in

19     order to have an order issued about the attack on Srebrenica.

20        Q.   Okay.  We'll get to that in a moment, sir, because I think you've

21     testified previously that you did present proposals to your commander.

22     But my question was, do you remember the Chief of Staff going to the 1st

23     Infantry Battalion to increase the accuracy and the direction of the

24     artillery fire, do you remember that happening as chief of artillery?

25        A.   No, I don't.  Each battalion had its own battalion artillery

Page 26566

 1     support, this being a 120 or 82 millimetre mortar platoon.  It was under

 2     the command of the brigade commander rather than chief of artillery per

 3     establishment.

 4        Q.   All right.  Let's look at another document, 65 ter 987, please.

 5     Now, there's a typewritten version but we can work with the handwritten

 6     version.  Do you see the reference on this daily combat report dated July

 7     4, 1995, sir, that the brigade commander is visiting the artillery firing

 8     positions?

 9        A.   It is quite customary during our regular activities for a certain

10     officer to visit the positions made from the command of the Drina Corps

11     or another staff.  They visit the units and control their combat

12     readiness.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Forgiven.  Let's proceed.

14             MR. BOURGON:  I apologise, Mr. President.

15             MR. THAYER:  I don't mind a musical accompaniment from time to

16     time, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  It depends on who the composer is, Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:

19        Q.   Now, sir, I understand you are just telling us it's customary.

20     My specific question is, do you recall whether your brigade commander

21     visited your, for example, firing position since you were not only

22     artillery chief but you were also the commander of a unit, do you

23     remember Commander Blagojevic visiting your position prior to the

24     commencement of operation Krivaja-95?

25        A.   After the changeover on the 25th of May, Blagojevic of course

Page 26567

 1     visited all of his units acquainting himself with the forward lines and

 2     the rest.  I recall that on a day, I don't know which precisely, that he

 3     came to visit, we toured our firing positions and wanted to know what the

 4     equipment was that we had at our disposal in the brigade.

 5        Q.   Now, let's look at 65 ter -- actually it's P03025, please.

 6             Sir, this is the Bratunac Brigade order for active combat

 7     operations Krivaja-95 operational order number 1.  You've seen this

 8     before, clearly; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You testified in Blagojevic that you personally received the

11     document and that you were duty-bound to sign for it and to read it.  You

12     can confirm that, sir?

13        A.   Yes, I can.

14        Q.   And you just told us that you made some proposals in

15     connection --

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

17             MR. BOURGON:  I'd just like a reference, I'm trying to follow in

18     the testimony from the Blagojevic case.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Yes, Mr. Thayer.  Thank you.

20             MR. THAYER:  Sure.  That was 8478 of the transcript in

21     Blagojevic.

22        Q.   Now, if we can turn to page 4 of the English and page 3 of the

23     B/C/S.  Do you see at number 6 under "fire support"?

24        A.   I see it.

25        Q.   And the reference to the BrAG, that's the brigade's mixed

Page 26568

 1     artillery group; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   And you testified yesterday as to the composition and size of

 4     those weapons and where they were deployed; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, there's a reference here to the basic firing position

 7     according to current deployment and plan.  Do you see that under 6.1,

 8     sir?  Can you just read out what it says under 6.1?

 9        A.   "Brigade artillery group consisting of a 105 millimetre howitzer

10     platoon, a 122 millimetre gun platoon, and a B1 gun battery.  Basic

11     firing positions.  According to current disposition ..."  should I

12     continue?

13        Q.   That's fine for now, sir, thank you.  Now, what kinds of

14     artillery pieces did the battalion batteries have?

15        A.   There are no battalion batteries.  They have mortar platoons the

16     calibre of which is either 82 or 120 millimetres.  Depending on the

17     manning strength of the battalion, these may not be platoons but squads.

18        Q.   Now, each of those platoons or squads within the battalion had

19     their own komandirs or commanding officers; right?

20        A.   Yes, squad commander subordinated to the company commander who in

21     turn is subordinated to the battalion commander.

22        Q.   And you testified in Blagojevic that, and I quote, this is from

23     8539:  "When it comes to major operations such as this one," and you were

24     referring to Krivaja-95, "the chief of artillery must be directly

25     superior to his subordinates, that is the commanding officers of the

Page 26569

 1     units, et cetera, down the line, down the chain of command."  And that

 2     would refer to those individual units; correct?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   So your testimony is that they were not subordinate to you in any

 5     fashion; is that correct?

 6        A.   No, they were not subordinated to me.  They were subordinated to

 7     the commander of the infantry battalion.  His unit, his soldiers.

 8        Q.   Well, when you testified in Blagojevic then, what were you

 9     referring to in terms of you exercising superior command over

10     subordinates, that is the commanding officers of the units down the line,

11     down the chain of command, what did you mean then when you were

12     testifying in Blagojevic?

13        A.   I commanded platoon and battery commanders within the brigade

14     artillery group.  I did not command the mortar units.  As per

15     establishment, they are not part of the artillery group that was

16     subordinated to me.  They fell under battalion commanders, infantry

17     battalion commanders.

18        Q.   And how about the 128 millimetre rocket launcher platoon, was

19     that under your command, sir?

20        A.   I don't know of such a platoon in our unit.  I know there was a

21     rocket launcher of 57 millimetre.  It was a makeshift device serving

22     psychological purposes rather than being an efficient weapon.  It was not

23     much of an artillery piece.

24        Q.   Well, do you remember testifying in Blagojevic, and this is at

25     page 8493 of the transcript:

Page 26570

 1             "Question:  And were you in charge of that rocket platoon in

 2     light of your position as the commander of artillery?"  And you answered

 3     to Mr. Karnavas:  "Yes."  Do you remember that, sir?

 4        A.    I remember that.  But in the combat order drafted by Colonel

 5     Blagojevic it says first fire should be opened and then that unit was

 6     supposed to move under my authority.  It is on the next page.

 7        Q.   So the question is simple, sir, you were in command of that

 8     platoon; correct?

 9        A.   That unit was attached to me for the purpose of that operation.

10             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I see that it's 3.30.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  The break would be at quarter to 4.00.  If you wish

12     to break now, we can do that.

13             MR. THAYER:  I'll work with one more document, Mr. President.  I

14     didn't know if there was some special time today as well.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, quarter to 4:00.  Yes, Mr. Bourgon, is there a

16     problem?

17             MR. BOURGON:  I'd just like to address the Court before the break

18     in respect of this witness.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, in his absence I suppose, no?

20     Thank you.

21             MR. THAYER:  In that case perhaps we can let the witness go and

22     we can discuss it now before the break.

23             MR. BOURGON:  No, I prefer to let my colleague go, Mr. President.

24     I don't want to interrupt anything.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Very sensitive, Mr. Bourgon.  Let's have your next

Page 26571

 1     question or questions on the other document.

 2             MR. THAYER:  I'm being serenaded with music and sensitivity.

 3     I'll get flowers next, I'm sure.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Exactly, next you will be exchanging bouquets of

 5     flowers.

 6             MR. THAYER:

 7        Q.   Sir, if we may take a look at P03785.  And if we could move the

 8     image down to the lower left.  In other words, if we could below up the

 9     upper right-hand portion a little bit.

10             Sir, do you see the image in front of you?

11        A.   I see two firing positions.  Three, sorry.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, if you have a hard time with the resolution of the

13     image, I have a hard copy here that you can look at and refer to, but if

14     you are okay with that.  What I'd like you to do is just take the little

15     pen that is attached to the screen, and you may need some help from Madam

16     Usher.  Sir, if you would -- just first of all, if you can locate where

17     your observation point at Kaolin hill was?  Just mark that with an X.

18        A.   [Marks].

19        Q.   Now, if you could circle the areas in which the brigade artillery

20     was located, and just write next to or inside those circles the calibres

21     of the weapons that each of those firing positions possessed.  And how

22     many of each of those weapons there were.  That would be helpful.  Just

23     write it down wherever you can locate where those positions were at the

24     time of the Krivaja-95 operation.

25        A.   I understand.  On this plan I don't see the place where the 122

Page 26572

 1     guns were.  I think this is a howitzer position at Repovac in B1 but I

 2     don't see Velika Raven.  It is some 500 metres to the north where the 122

 3     cannons were.  I don't see that.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Then if you could just first of all mark the first one

 5     that you talked about that you can see, and indicate --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then we can move the map down, maybe it's further

 7     up.  I don't know.

 8             MR. THAYER:

 9        Q.   Sir, if you would -- unfortunately this copy is cut off, so we

10     can --

11        A.   Very well.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

13             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It's just that the

14     witness is being asked to mark gun positions for operation Krivaja-95 but

15     the map he has in front of him is Susica, which was drafted and prepared

16     before.  The two don't match.  Unless my colleague has a reason for doing

17     so, I'd like to have an explanation for this, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

19             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we have a map that has positions

20     indicated.  I just want to find out where his guns were placed during

21     this period of time.  If they correspond with anything on the map, then

22     so be it.  If they don't then so be it.  I could show him any map and it

23     wouldn't make a difference.  I've made no representations as to what this

24     is.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, as long as this is made clear we see no

Page 26573

 1     problem with proceeding.  At the end of the day it's not the purpose for

 2     which the map was prepared that counts but the position of the gun posts

 3     that he is being asked to mark on it.  If, however, this map is not the

 4     ideal one in the sense that it is obvious that the witness has in mind

 5     also some other spots which are not included in this map, then perhaps we

 6     can break now, we can save this one, we can save this one, and if you

 7     have a better map that can be uploaded or shown to the witness and which

 8     he can mark, then we can proceed after the break, no.

 9             MR. THAYER:  So, Mr. Gavric, if you would sign your name at the

10     bottom right-hand corner and today's date, which is the 2nd of October.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Your signature and date, please.

12             MR. THAYER:  If you could write that at the lower right-hand

13     corner, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  [Marks].

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think now you can have a break, Mr. Gavric.  We

16     will call you back in about 30 minutes time.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon, s'il vous plait.

19             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Very quickly, my

20     colleague has been going with this witness for more than 2 hours he's

21     asked for 3, so I have no problem with the time he is taking.  What my

22     question is is rather what is the purpose of the cross-examination of

23     this witness and I'd simply like to know if he is try to get evidence for

24     his own case he should put his case to the witness and say that's my case

25     and that's what I'm going to ask questions to you about.

Page 26574

 1             If it's credibility then at least he can tell us so we understand

 2     that is he trying to attack the credibility of the witness and I haven't

 3     seen any of that so far, and if is he trying to get evidence contrary to

 4     what was obtained during examination-in-chief, then that's a different

 5     matter.  But I just don't see where my colleague is going with his

 6     cross-examination.  I think it's important that we have a feel for where

 7     he is going so that when we get to 3 hours I can say it's enough or it's

 8     not enough, thank you Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  Mr. Thayer, you wish to

10     respond?  You know where you are heading?

11             MR. THAYER:  I'm following the tune, Mr. President.  We -- I

12     think it's quite clear where I've been going with this witness with

13     respect to the shelling of Srebrenica.  It took a little while but this

14     is obviously about his credibility when he claims no recollection of the

15     events of 25 May 1995 and recalls solely that there was a tank firing at

16     his artillery position but claims no knowledge and no conduct with

17     respect to these very specific orders and instructions that were being

18     handed down from the Drina Corps in connection with those historic events

19     of the 25th of July.  That's all about credibility.  And it takes some

20     time to establish through the documents.  That is why it is taking the

21     time that it is, Mr. President.

22             With respect to these other areas, this witness was taken through

23     the events of the attack on the Srebrenica enclave.  He was asked

24     questions about his conduct during that.  He was asked specific questions

25     about whether there was shelling on Srebrenica on Potocari, on the column

Page 26575

 1     of refugees who were fleeing from Srebrenica to Potocari.  He was asked

 2     questions about an encounter with Drago Nikolic on the 15th of July in

 3     the morning.  These are all areas that I intend to pursue.  Obviously

 4     most of it, if not all of it, has to do with credibility, Mr. President.

 5     And that takes time to work with this witness, in particular, going

 6     through these documents and eliciting his responses as to what he recalls

 7     about these events at this time period.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon do you wish to --

 9             MR. BOURGON:  Very quickly, simply to say that at least he should

10     put his case to the witness and tell what is he trying to get from the

11     witness, which he is not doing at the moment, and he is not saying.  The

12     witness is repeating his answers that he gave years ago in the previous

13     case when he testified.  He is giving the same answers, and he doesn't

14     know why he is being asked again because my colleague is not saying to

15     him you are a liar.  If he thinks that witness is a liar, he should put

16     it to him, but is he not doing that.  He is not doing anything to the

17     witness, Mr. President.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, let's have a 25-minute break.  Thank

19     you.

20                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  So Mr. Thayer, let's continue and let's cut it as

24     short as possible, please.

25             MR. THAYER:  I'll do my best, Mr. President.

Page 26576

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 2             MR. THAYER:

 3        Q.   May we have 65 ter 2116, please.  And this is a different map,

 4     and hopefully we can work with the resolution and catch that top part.

 5     It's a big document, Mr. Gavric, so it's going to take some time.

 6             Now, if we could -- that's it.  And perfect.  Sir, this is an

 7     excerpt from a different map.  Does this magnification capture the

 8     northward points that you were referring to earlier?  Okay.  Let's zoom

 9     out then.

10        A.   You could see much more on the former map, but I can do it now.

11     I can already locate the -- I can try and locate the position of the

12     pieces.  The former map already depicted two of the positions.  So

13     whichever way you want me to do it.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  If we can zoom in, I think it will be easier for

15     the witness.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  It's no problem.  I've located the

17     positions and I can draw them on the map.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead then, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  [Marks].

20             MR. THAYER:

21        Q.   Sir, you've written in "105 2" and something else.  Can you just

22     tell us what that says in that circle?

23        A.   "105 2 pieces."

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   [Marks].

Page 26577

 1        Q.   And you've drawn another circle on top of that, what does that

 2     say inside, sir?

 3        A.   Cannon 122-2 pieces.  So this is a firing position and another

 4     one behind that firing position.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6        A.   B1-5 pieces Repovac.

 7        Q.   And what size are those guns, sir, that you've just drawn to the

 8     left of the first circle that you drew?

 9        A.   It says B1, they were 76 millimetre.

10        Q.   And, again, if you can just write an X at your observation point

11     on the Kaolin hill?

12        A.   Kaolin hill?

13        Q.   Please.

14        A.   [Marks].

15        Q.   And, sir, you've described that location as being just above the

16     DutchBat base; is that correct?

17        A.   Overlooking the base.

18        Q.   Now, can you mark where the battalions with their mortars were

19     located?

20        A.   I wouldn't be able to do that.  I can't draw the firing positions

21     because I did not man those and I'm just aware of the positions where my

22     artillery pieces were.  This was the brigade artillery group.

23        Q.   So you've got no recollection as you sit here today as to where

24     those battalion mortar platoons were located during the operation?

25        A.   It would be pointless for me to draw something that is not

Page 26578

 1     correct.  I would like to apologise, I have made a mistake about the

 2     elevation 438.  I would like to annul the X on Ladja and I would like to

 3     draw the proper place of the observation point on Kaolin hill.  Am I

 4     allowed to correct myself and actually draw the correct position of the

 5     Kaolin hill observation point?

 6        Q.   Absolutely, Mr. Gavric.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead, do that.  Madam Usher will assist

 8     you.  If you need to cancel anything, you can do that.  You can cancel

 9     the previous one if you want.  Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  It's much better now.  It's

11     correct now.

12             MR. THAYER:

13        Q.   That's right.  And there's a little I think 438 right where you

14     wrote that X, correct, indicating the elevation?

15        A.   Yes, that's one observation point, one elevation.  This is the

16     trig point where we were.

17        Q.   If you would just sign your name and put today's date October 2nd

18     in the lower right-hand corner and we'll be done with this exhibit.

19     Thank you, sir.  We can save it.  And we are done.

20             Now, if we may have 65 ter 3025 again briefly.  And we'll need to

21     go to page 4 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S.  Sir, I might have

22     to jump around a little just to save some time so please bear with me.

23             Do you see under "tasks" 6.1.1 in this combat order where it says

24     "open fire on observed targets in the sectors of Potocari school,

25     Pecisica, Budak, Pale and Cizmici.

Page 26579

 1        A.   Just bear with me a moment, please.

 2        Q.   Might have to go down, it's at the very bottom of the page, there

 3     it is, sir, do you see it?

 4        A.   Now, I can see it, yes.

 5        Q.   Next page in B/C/S, please.  We can stay where we are in the

 6     English.  Under 6.2, you referred to this before, the 128 millimetre

 7     rocket launcher --

 8        A.   We've already discussed this, yes.

 9        Q.   And do you see where it says at 0300 hours on 6 July 1995 it will

10     fire 4 projectiles, 50 kilometre air bombs on the Potocari sector, the

11     school, the 11 March factory, the Gracac hill, trig point 377, Kula and

12     Orici?

13        A.   I can actually see it, yes.

14        Q.   Now, that firing was actually carried out, was it not?

15        A.   As far as I know not with these shells as far as I know, but

16     again at 3.00 after that they were supposed to be placed under my

17     command, but as far as I know, the firing never happened and I don't know

18     anything about the 128 launcher.  It may be a mistake or an error.  I

19     don't know.

20        Q.   Okay.  Well, you testified yesterday that the firing didn't occur

21     and at 26506, you said that "This was just an idea, a plan, but it

22     doesn't mean that everything that is planned has to be implemented in the

23     field."  I want to show you 233, please.  And then I'll put some

24     questions to you.

25             Now, sir, do you see this handwritten combat report from Colonel

Page 26580

 1     Blagojevic dated July 6, 1995?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   On this handwritten version do you see the reference to firing

 4     support against set targets was provided by 70 millimetre shell launcher,

 5     school in Potocari, 11 March factory, and wider area of the village of

 6     Potocari."  Do you see that, sir?

 7        A.   I can see this, but this is just something that was copied and

 8     incorrectly and I can guarantee you that there was no firing in the

 9     sector because the no movement of forces had been noticed nor was this an

10     axis of attack either by the Bratunac Brigade or the corps.  The axis of

11     attack was on an entirely different side, some 20 kilometres in depth

12     away from Bratunac on an entirely different side.

13        Q.   Okay.  Sir, just so we are clear, your testimony then today is

14     this daily combat report is incorrect?  Whoever drafted it got the wrong

15     information and put the wrong information down, is that your testimony?

16        A.   What I'm saying is that very often combat reports just followed a

17     pattern and they were drafted by different people, logistics men,

18     infantry men, some of whom did not have the necessary knowledge on

19     writing combat reports.  Some just copied things without giving them much

20     thought.

21        Q.   All right, sir.  So your testimony is to your knowledge nobody

22     fired at those locations on that time; right?

23        A.   That is my testimony, yes.

24        Q.   Let me take you back to what you told the Trial Chamber in

25     Blagojevic.  When you were shown this daily combat report by

Page 26581

 1     Mr. Karnavas, you stated that, and this is at page 8496:  "The person who

 2     wrote this report should have in paragraph 2 stipulated the fact that

 3     fire power support at certain targets was carried out by battalion fire

 4     groups and not the artillery brigade because point 2 and point 6 of this

 5     combat report are contradictory."

 6             So, sir, what you told the Trial Chamber in Blagojevic was that

 7     firing happened but it wasn't by the brigade assets, it was by the

 8     battalion assets; correct?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Well, then tell the Trial Chamber what you meant.

11        A.   What I meant was that this referred to the infantry battalion.

12     Whoever provided this information was not telling the truth.  If there

13     was firing by that part of the 2nd Battalion on my left flank, I would

14     have observed it.  But the battalion commander very often did what they

15     did.  That's the way things were done.

16        Q.   Okay.  So we've got somebody lying in the 2nd Battalion; that's

17     your testimony?

18        A.   99 percent, that would be the case.  I can even guess who it was,

19     but it doesn't really matter, does it.

20        Q.   We don't want you to guess, sir.

21             Let's look at 65 ter 234, please.  And with Madam Usher's

22     assistance, I'm going to show you the original because again we have a

23     legibility problem with the e-court version.  I'm handing you both the

24     handwritten and the typed version of this document.  And if you want to

25     look at the typed written version, that might be a little easier, either

Page 26582

 1     way.

 2        A.   Just a moment, please.  Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, do you see at paragraph 2 from this 7 July daily combat

 4     report from Colonel Blagojevic, it says:  "Our forces returned the fire

 5     and also fired artillery at the enemy's firing positions"?  Do you see

 6     that, sir?

 7        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 8        Q.   And if we look at paragraph 6, there's a reference to 30 pieces

 9     of 122 millimetre ammo being used.  What kind of gun fires that?

10        A.   It should say that the brigade artillery group engaged in and 122

11     millimetre guns actually were -- opened fire on the 11th.

12        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking you about the 11th, I'm asking you about

13     what's clearly stated here on the 7th in this combat report and my

14     question was first of all, what kind of weapon fires the 122 millimetre

15     round?  We see 30 pieces being used according to this combat report.

16     What kind of weapon is that?

17        A.   122 millimetre are fired by howitzers 122 and cannons 122

18     millimetre as well.

19        Q.   So my question to you, sir, is was this firing done by any asset

20     of the Bratunac Brigade on 7 July 1995?

21        A.   Not by the Bratunac Brigade, and I wouldn't be able to tell you

22     anything about any other units deployed in any other areas.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let me share with you what you told the Blagojevic Trial

24     Chamber about this same daily combat report.  And this is at pages 8496

25     to 8497.  Your attention was called to these sections of the report and

Page 26583

 1     you stated, and I quote:  "The person who was on duty that day and drew

 2     up this combat report mixed up the battalion firing group and the brigade

 3     artillery, and this is not one and the same thing."  Now, sir, I put it

 4     to you that in your answers to the Blagojevic Trial Chamber you didn't

 5     say anybody was lying, you just said that what was incorrect was that

 6     this firing was coming from the brigade battalion firing group and not

 7     the brigade artillery.  So my question to you is, again, did any Bratunac

 8     Brigade assets, be it your mixed artillery group or be it any of the

 9     battalion assets fire on 7 July?

10        A.   As far as I know the answer would be no.  And the only 122

11     millimetre cannons in the Bratunac Brigade were held by the Bratunac

12     artillery group.

13        Q.   So it's your testimony then, sir, that you had it wrong, you

14     misspoke in the Blagojevic case when you attributed that firing to the

15     Bratunac battalion firing group; correct?

16        A.   Maybe it was wrongly transcribed.  And there's just one

17     possibility, that howitzers 122 millimetres were active in some areas,

18     but they did not belong to the brigade but to the 5th Mixed Artillery

19     Regiment.

20        Q.   So then are you saying that the operative who drafted this daily

21     combat report got it wrong again when he attributes that 122 millimetre

22     firing to the brigade?

23        A.   I can say with full certainty about the Bratunac artillery group,

24     and I really don't know how this was done, how come people just put

25     things on paper in order to meet somebody's expectations or I don't know

Page 26584

 1     why, I don't know for what reason would they do that.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at one more, sir.  May we have 65 ter 236,

 3     please.  And if we may go to the next page in B/C/S, please.  And

 4     actually, if we can start from I guess the bottom of the previous page in

 5     B/C/S.  I apologise.

 6             Okay, sir, I just want to ask you about some of the usage that's

 7     indicated on this report.  There's a reference to 700 pieces of bullets,

 8     20/3.  What is that?

 9        A.   This is ammo for an anti-aircraft cannon.  I don't know why you

10     would want to tie this with me.

11        Q.   And if we look at a little further down, 200 pieces of 30/2

12     bullets.  What is that?  What kind of weapon is that, sir?

13        A.   How many, 200?  220?  How many?  220, 120, 120 millimetres.

14        Q.   If we look at the 30/2 reference, it says 200 pieces.  I'm just

15     asking you, sir, what is a 30/2?  What kind of weapon is that that used

16     those 200 rounds?  It's right -- second line from the bottom.

17        A.   Just a moment, please.  I think that it was also an anti-aircraft

18     gun but I'm not sure.  This is small calibre used in anti-aircraft

19     defence.

20        Q.   And if we look at the next entry, it refers to 76 millimetre M18,

21     60 pieces.  What kind of weapon is the 76 millimetre, sir?

22        A.   It's a self-propelled gun that uses 76 millimetres as well as B1

23     cannons and ZIS cannons as well.

24        Q.   And again your testimony, sir, is that no Bratunac Brigade asset

25     discharged a B1 76 millimetre -- I'm sorry, a 70 millimetre round on that

Page 26585

 1     day, 9 July?

 2        A.   This is ammunition that is taken from the logistics base.

 3        Q.   My question, sir, is, to your knowledge was the -- was an M18 70

 4     millimetre weapon discharged by any asset of the Bratunac Brigade on 9

 5     July 1995, or is this report wrong too?

 6        A.   I don't know anything about that because the self-propelled gun

 7     was in Pribicevac which is 25 kilometres from where I was at the time.

 8        Q.   And you testified in Blagojevic that from where you were you

 9     could see Potocari, and I quote, "extremely well and very precisely."  Do

10     you remember saying that?  And you stand by that, correct, sir?

11        A.   The area of Potocari was placed exactly the same -- exactly that

12     way, I could see it very well since I had the SM61 observation device

13     with me.

14        Q.   Do you stand by your testimony in Blagojevic that, and I quote:

15     "Every hit and every projectile fired from our positions was something I

16     could see.  That's how it's supposed to be done.  You cannot just fire

17     off the top of your head.  You have to see where the projectiles fall."

18     That was at 8546 of the transcript.  You stand by that?

19        A.   Perhaps I can clarify it a bit further.

20        Q.   If you need to, sir.  I'm just asking whether you stand by it.

21     Can you answer with a yes or no?  If not, you can feel free to explain

22     but I just want to know whether you can answer the question.

23        A.   I stand by my previous answer.  I could see that area from my

24     observation post.  I can guarantee for that area and not another one

25     which was 30 kilometres away.

Page 26586

 1        Q.   And do you stand by your testimony that not a single round fell

 2     near the Muslims walking along the road towards Potocari, and that was at

 3     page 8547?

 4        A.   With full moral and other responsibility.

 5        Q.   And with respect to the actual civilians who were fleeing from

 6     Srebrenica to Potocari, do you stand by your testimony in Blagojevic at

 7     page 8549 that:  "All the citizens of Srebrenica who were moving from the

 8     direction of Srebrenica towards Bratunac or rather, the industrial zone

 9     where they stopped, walked normally, without any panic, at a normal pace,

10     because nobody from our side was disturbing them in any way."  Do you

11     stand by that testimony, sir?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Now, sir, just to save time, is it fair to say that if I showed

14     you reports from UN military observers and DutchBat and read to you

15     testimony from other UN officers and Muslim civilians about sustained

16     shelling impacting the immediate area of the DutchBat compounds in both

17     Srebrenica and Potocari all through this period from the 6th through the

18     11th, as well as the shelling tracking the column of refugees fleeing

19     from Srebrenica towards Potocari, that wouldn't change your testimony,

20     would it?

21        A.   Nothing can change my testimony.  I'm telling you what I saw.

22     And I stand by it 100 percent.

23        Q.   Now, you were asked the question in your OTP interview at page

24     77:  "If howitzers were landing on Potocari and Srebrenica, obviously

25     directed as civilian targets could someone else other than you be

Page 26587

 1     responsible?"

 2             And you answered:  "I just told you that on the main axis of the

 3     attack which was on the opposite side from me, there were support units

 4     and they had two howitzers known as Vozika [phoen] because it's Russian

 5     production and it's self-propelled like a tank."  Do you remember that,

 6     sir?

 7        A.   I don't recall it exactly but I think something was not

 8     interpreted correctly.  How can howitzers fire from Srebrenica at people

 9     living Srebrenica?  I don't understand that.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

11             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The interview my

12     colleague is referring to does not appear on the list of documents which

13     were intended to be used by the Prosecution.  Neither on the list from

14     yesterday or on today's list so I am a bit surprised to see questions

15     concerning this document.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

17             MR. THAYER:  Well, that is a simple oversight, Mr. President, I

18     apologize.  I'm sure my friend has the interview of his own witness

19     handy.  If he doesn't, I can give him a copy and he can look at it, but I

20     think we can survive.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.  Let's proceed.  Again try to avoid

22     this recurring as much as you can, please, Mr. Thayer.

23             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Now, you were asked in the interview:  "Was any part of your

25     artillery used to drive civilians from one area to another?"  And you

Page 26588

 1     made a sketch of the UN compounds and you said that, "No one shelled them

 2     there, I can guarantee that."  Do you recall that, sir?  That's at

 3     page --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  Reference please, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, okay, I was just going to say that.

 7             MR. THAYER:  That's at page 76 and 77.

 8        Q.   And then you were asked:  "You weren't responsible for any mortar

 9     positions?"  And you answered:  "No, no, no.  Our forces, and I'm talking

10     about 1st and 2nd Battalion, they didn't have a need to fire, they were

11     not in danger.  All the offensive came from the direction of Jadar."

12     That's at page 78.  Do you recall that testimony, sir, and do you stand

13     by it?

14        A.   Yes, I do.  We could not drive away people who were moving

15     towards us.

16        Q.   I want to turn your attention now to a different topic, sir.  You

17     testified yesterday and that was consistent with your testimony in

18     Blagojevic that the duty officer's assistant when you arrived at the

19     Standard command said that Dragan Obrenovic was asleep because he was

20     tired.  Do you remember saying that in Blagojevic at page 8507, sir?

21        A.   I think I said that the duty officer told me that the commander

22     was asleep.

23             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we may go into private session for just a

24     moment, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's do that.  Let's go into private session.

Page 26589

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26590

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Proceed.

18             MR. THAYER:

19        Q.   Sir, with respect to the encounter that you had on the morning of

20     15 July with this individual Lukic, let me just read to you what you

21     testified to in Blagojevic.  This is at page 8510:  "At around 8.30 or

22     9.00 when I arrived at the entrance gate and the reception area, I met a

23     young man nicely dressed in an all-in-one suit.  As far as I knew him, I

24     think he was Lukic.  And he tried to talk to me.  I was to give him some

25     of my men to go with him on one of his assignments.  I refused to do

Page 26591

 1     that.  And there was a very unfortunate exchange but I don't know what

 2     the other man was by rank."  And then you say, and this is probably a

 3     mistranslation or a problem with the transcript, you say:  "He was the

 4     security man Drago Nikolic."

 5             Actually that may not be incorrect, but your next statement is:

 6     "He was the security man Drago Nikolic, he involved himself in our heated

 7     conversation and the late Dusko Nikolic, he is deceased today, he was

 8     also a school friend of mine, he was killed."

 9             Now, my first question, sir, is what if anything did Drago

10     Nikolic say during this encounter?

11        A.   First I need to say that there were many mistakes in that

12     interpretation.

13        Q.   Well, sir, if you want to correct them, please go ahead.

14        A.   I didn't have to give it, the man asked for it.  I think you said

15     I had to or I needed to, whereas I was requested.  There's a difference.

16     That's one thing.  Another thing, I said that Drago and Dusko Nikolic

17     approached to protect me from the man.  They probably saw that it was an

18     ugly conversation which may result in an incident.  Dusko Nikolic was

19     killed the next day on the 15th.  I didn't say that Dusko was dead at

20     that point in time.  As far as I know he was killed on the 16th, not the

21     15th.  That's one thing.

22             Another thing, I know that Drago also intervened but I remember

23     Dusko reacting more vehemently and he addressed the man brusquely.  He

24     left and we stayed there talking.  I was talking about a handgun and so

25     on.

Page 26592

 1             As for Drago, I don't think it was translated correctly.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, you were asked by Mr. Karnavas same page, 8510:  "Let

 3     me ask you this, you mentioned Lukic, does he have a first name?"  And

 4     you answered:  "I don't know his first name.  I don't know it to this day

 5     after all this time.  All I know is they referred to him as Lukic.  I

 6     heard a lot of ugly things about him, bad things about him, and he wasn't

 7     at my level.  He was a soldier or whatever, but he wasn't in a position

 8     to issue any orders to me, let alone me give him my men."

 9             And then you were asked:  "Where is he from to your knowledge?"

10     And you answered:  "As far as I know he was from the surrounding parts of

11     Visegrad."  Do you stand by that portion of area tomorrow, sir.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

13             MR. BOURGON:  My colleague jumped one line reading from the

14     statement here where it says:  "At that time I did not know.  Today I do

15     know."  He skipped that line.  It's very important, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

17             MR. THAYER:

18        Q.   Well, sir, having heard that, can you tell the Trial Chamber when

19     you learned that he was from Visegrad?

20        A.   First of all, don't read it the way you did.  You should read it

21     all out.  It's not nice of you to skip things.  I know very well what I

22     said.  I said that at that time I didn't know the man.  Now I know of him

23     because I heard about him just like many others did.  And I stand by what

24     I said.

25        Q.   And my question to you, sir, is what did you hear about him?

Page 26593

 1        A.   What did I hear?  What people were saying, that there was a

 2     person from the environs of Visegrad who was with a paramilitary unit.

 3     That's all I heard.  I have no idea what he was doing, I wasn't with him.

 4     It's another matter what I heard from others.  It's irrelevant since I

 5     didn't see him.

 6        Q.   And, sir, during the course of these discussions, whatever they

 7     were about this Mr. Lukic, it's your testimony that you now believe that

 8     this man that you encountered was Lukic from Visegrad, right, that's all

 9     I'm try together establish with you.  Doesn't matter when you found out,

10     your testimony today is your understanding is this individual who you met

11     on the 15th of July was Lukic from Visegrad; correct?

12        A.   I don't know.  I can only presume that it was Lukic.  It may have

13     been Erdemovic as well.  He did not introduce himself and no one

14     addressed him.  How should I know?  I saw him being arrested but I would

15     never have thought that it was the same person I met in Zvornik.  I said

16     I supposed it was Lukic.

17        Q.   And you testified in Blagojevic that you thought of him as a

18     freelancer, someone who goes out to loot.  And that's at 8578 of the

19     transcript.

20        A.   Such loose cannons brought only evil.  They were only interested

21     in making profit and gains, nothing else.

22        Q.   Now, I want to move to my last area with you, sir.  And that's

23     the sweep operation that was conducted on the 17th of July.  Can you

24     confirm that this individual Jevic with whom you were working that day

25     went by the nickname of Stalin, that was the nickname that you heard that

Page 26594

 1     day?

 2        A.   I think his nickname was Stalin.  I think so.

 3        Q.   Now, you testified in Blagojevic that you testified -- sorry,

 4     that you ordered the prisoners lined up, and that they lie down with

 5     their hands behind their back and ordered their hands tied behind their

 6     back.  That was at lines 8518 of the transcript.  Do you remember that,

 7     testifying that you ordered the prisoners to line up and to lie down with

 8     their hands behind their back and that you ordered that their hands be

 9     tied behind their backs?

10        A.   First of all, these were not detainees but prisoners.  I did

11     order their hands to be tied, although I don't know whether on the back

12     or in the front, but I did order that.  That was the natural thing to do.

13        Q.   And you said that you used twine from raspberry bushes.  Was this

14     rope twine or metal wire, sir?  Did you understand the question, sir, was

15     that rope twine or was it metal wire?

16        A.   It is true we used rope used to bind raspberry bushes.

17        Q.   And your testimony is that those men were taken by Mr. Jevic and

18     the MUP towards Konjevic Polje; correct?

19        A.   When the operation was finished, I singled out the children from

20     the group.  As for the rest of the people who were in the certain age

21     group, they were taken by Jevic who was supposed to take them to Konjevic

22     Polje.  There was no sense in taking them to Bratunac and then later on

23     to Bijeljina.  I thought it was a good order to give for them to go to

24     Konjevic Polje.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic.

Page 26595

 1             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Just one small correction for the transcript.  I

 2     believe the gentleman mentioned that it was Momir Nikolic who ordered

 3     that, I don't see this in the transcript.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is that correct, Mr. Gavric?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I said now what I said yesterday,

 6     that once the operation was finished I reported to Momir Nikolic who

 7     ordered them to be sent to Konjevic Polje rather than to Bratunac.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Thayer, please.

 9             MR. THAYER:

10        Q.   Now, sir --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  You've been already 2 hours 50 minutes.

12             MR. THAYER:  This is my last section, Mr. President.  I'll be

13     able to move through it more quickly I think.

14        Q.   Now, you testified that you saw those prisoners the next day at

15     the warehouse or the hangar in Konjevic Polje where the gas station is

16     now; is that correct?

17        A.   I stated that I saw those people in front of a warehouse picking

18     up papers and litter.  It wasn't a hangar.  It used to be a store and now

19     is a gas station.

20        Q.   Now, you were asked during your interview with the OTP, and this

21     is at page 37 by Dean Manning:

22             "Question:  How many men and boys were in that group that you

23     captured?"

24             And your answer was:  "My free assessment 35 to 38."

25             And at the Blagojevic trial you were asked how many prisoners

Page 26596

 1     were captured on the 17th and you answered:  "35 to 38 or rather a total

 2     of 38, of those, 3 children and 35 adults, I think."  You stand by that?

 3        A.   I do.

 4        Q.   Yesterday again you repeated that number 38; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  38 in total including 3 children.

 6        Q.   And you testified in Blagojevic that they were being guarded by

 7     the special police.  That was at transcript 8593.  Just to clarify,

 8     because sometimes that gets translated differently, what did you mean

 9     when you said special police guarding those prisoners?

10        A.   I had in mind the same group that had been with me the day

11     before.  It was the deserters that were sometimes referred to as the

12     special police.

13        Q.   Now, you told the OTP at page 33 of your interview that you had

14     information that those prisoners were taken for exchange.  Can you tell

15     the Trial Chamber what that information was, and from whom you received

16     it?

17        A.   I said that the children were taken to be exchanged.  The rest

18     were supposed to go to Bijeljina to be exchanged for the people from the

19     Tuzla area.

20        Q.   And how did you know that that was the plan for the adult

21     prisoners?

22        A.   During the operation, I remember well, there was much talk about

23     those who surrendered, that they would be exchanged with or for some

24     people from the area of Tuzla and Sarajevo.  The place of assembly was

25     supposed to be in Bijeljina, Batkovaca [phoen] or something.

Page 26597

 1        Q.   And who gave you that information, sir, who told you that?

 2        A.   I can't tell you.  It's a story I heard when we were sitting at

 3     the command.  Like many, I asked myself what was going to become of those

 4     people and then someone from the group said that they were to go to

 5     Bijeljina and they would subsequently be exchanged for people from Tuzla

 6     and Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   If we may have 65 ter 3787, please.  Now, the OTP has interviewed

 8     the boys who you separated out from the group and who you ended up having

 9     filmed; correct?  Okay.

10        A.   Whether the OTP interviewed them, I don't know.  And it wasn't me

11     who recorded them.  I think there was a TV crew.

12        Q.   And that was your idea, sir, was it, to film them, let people

13     know that they were being treated well?

14        A.   Yes.  There was another reason why I did that, if you want to

15     know.

16        Q.   Sure, why don't you share that with us, sir?

17        A.   We filmed the children so that there would be no news circulating

18     the globe that children were being caught and shot.  That was one thing.

19     Another thing, irrespective of the time period, that document can be

20     useful to many in cases such as this one, those children can testify as

21     to their treatment, how I treated them and how they were treated by the

22     rest.  It was my idea and that's how we did it.

23        Q.   Okay.  Well, we interviewed one of those children, sir.  Haso

24     Hasanovic in August of 1996 on the 18th of August.  He was 16 years old

25     at the time.  And if we can go to page 5 of this document.  And sir,

Page 26598

 1     we'll get the B/C/S up as well.  It's going to be the last page of the

 2     B/C/S before the witness acknowledgement.  It's the last two paragraphs

 3     of the interview.  Previous page, please.  There you go, you've got it.

 4     Okay.

 5             Sir, he told the investigators about being captured in the area

 6     of Burnice.  Is that the area where these prisoners were found, sir?

 7        A.   Burnice.

 8        Q.   Apologies for the pronunciation.

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   Now, he spoke of a Serb soldier who said that he wanted to

11     slaughter the prisoners and of another Serb soldier who prevented him

12     from doing that and who appeared to be in charge.  That's you; right?  We

13     just need an audible answer so we can get it on the --

14        A.   Just a moment.  This thing happened when they were arrested and

15     brought to the area of Pervani.  One of the volunteers was interested in

16     the children that I separated from the rest.  He wanted to liquidate

17     them.  That's when I reacted because I really found that a bad thing to

18     do.  And I told him nicely that a Serb soldier or officer could not kill

19     anybody old, arrested or under age and that's when I called the police

20     and asked them to arrest him.

21        Q.   And actually sir, we need to go to the prior page in the B/C/S,

22     I'm sorry.  And where the statement says that the man who was in charge

23     said let the children go, that's you, correct, sir?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, if we go up a little bit in the statement, when he was

Page 26599

 1     talking about what happened during their capture, he said:  "We were told

 2     to lie down and Serb soldiers moved amongst all of us tying our hands

 3     with lengths of wire which had already been cut in preparation."  Now,

 4     again sir, it's your recollection that that was twine, rope twine, not

 5     wire; correct?

 6        A.   It was actually not a rope or a rope twine.  It was a simple

 7     piece of string.

 8        Q.   All right.  May we have 65 ter 3786, please.  If we can go to

 9     page 2 of the B/C/S, please.  We also spoke with another one of those

10     boys, Azmir Jusufovic on February 22nd, 2003.  This is his statement, his

11     transcript or, sorry, a summary of a phone conversation with him,

12     information report memorializing a conversation on the 19th of February

13     2002 at 1615 hours.  Now, Azmir Jusufovic told us that he was captured in

14     this area of Burnice and taken with other children to the Kaolin factory

15     to the Bratunac Brigade command.  Sounds like another one of these

16     children, correct, that you rescued or that you separated?

17        A.   I don't know their names.  I ordered Milan Nedeljkovic to put the

18     children in our car for security reasons, and I brought them personally

19     in front of the command of the Bratunac Brigade.  I turned them over to

20     the military police and ordered them strictly not to touch them and give

21     them food and this is what I told to Filipovic at the command that they

22     should be covered by the media reports in order to avoid any future

23     situations where people would say that we might have killed these

24     children or ill treated them or something to that effect.

25        Q.   Now, Azmir Jusufovic told the OTP that after they were captured,

Page 26600

 1     that is after the group he was with of adult men were captured, he "saw a

 2     soldier who had a bundle of approximately 30 to 50 lengths of silver

 3     colour wire which were folded in half and were hanging on his belt.  He

 4     saw the Serb soldiers tying up the hands of Muslim prisoners with such

 5     wire."

 6             I ask you again, sir, are you sure it was twine and not wire

 7     which was used that day to tie up the Muslim prisoners.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

 9             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I will kindly ask the witness to

10     remove the earphones in order to propose my objection to the Prosecutor's

11     question.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's make sure that he doesn't understand French.

13     Go ahead, Ms. Fauveau.

14             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have allowed my

15     learned friend to ask questions about the first statement referring to

16     the 15th of July.  Is there anything, any piece of evidence that the

17     Prosecutor has about the 18th of July to prove that the two young boys

18     were precisely the ones that the witness has referred to so far?

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.  And before you respond to that, I

20     notice also Mr. Bourgon.  Perhaps you will then reply to both of them.

21     Mr. Bourgon.  Thank you, Ms. Fauveau.

22             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I did not say anything

23     in this line of questioning by the Prosecution, however, I wish to

24     highlight the fact that this is of course the Prosecution at its best in

25     terms of disclosure.  These documents that my colleague is using right

Page 26601

 1     now were put on the list of exhibits to be used for cross-examination

 2     yesterday.  The Prosecution has cross-examined this witness years ago in

 3     the Blagojevic case and he has described everything about those kids that

 4     he says that he saved.  Following which the Prosecution at some point in

 5     time did some interviews and obtained some material that was not

 6     disclosed to us.  Was it available, they will say that it was probably

 7     available on EDS and those millions and millions of pages on EDS.

 8             The situation is on 1 May of this year we indicated that Mr.

 9     Gavric here present would be a witness in this case in exactly they know

10     what he was supposed to speak about.  They had all the information in

11     order to make this available to us so we could at least at a minimum of

12     decency so that we can show the information to the witness so that he may

13     prepare and explain his story.

14             I think Mr. President, this is a flagrant violation of the rules

15     of disclosure that the Prosecution has.  Again they are abusing as they

16     have done throughout this case disclosure, and as a minimum when the

17     witness will retire for the break, I would ask that these documents be

18     given to him so he has a chance to read them because he has never seen

19     them before, these have never been discussed with him.  The Defence has

20     never been aware that these documents existed.  We have done our

21     homework.  We have done what we are supposed to do.  We have checked for

22     all documents related to Mr. Gavric, but we did not obtain this

23     information through our search procedure.  As a minimum he should be

24     given an opportunity to read this and then I will ask him a few questions

25     in terms of what he did when he saved those children who are still alive

Page 26602

 1     today, and what they say in those statements.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Thayer, will you start with

 3     Ms. Fauveau's objection.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, these documents were disclosed in the

 5     Srebrenica folder of EDS, the specific Srebrenica folder in February of

 6     2006.  First of all, we placed these exhibits on our list of

 7     cross-examinations yesterday and they were disclosed in that way again

 8     yesterday pursuant to the rules that we've been following for the last

 9     two years of this trial.  I frankly do not understand my friend's

10     argument that there has been some violation here.  There has been no

11     violation.

12             We put on our case in chief for two years and abided by the rules

13     that the Trial Chamber had set up.  We are now cross-examining witnesses

14     and giving them lists of documents that we intend to use.  If my friend

15     thinks that there's anything that he needs to do with these documents, he

16     is free to do that.  If either of them want to sit on their redirect or

17     cross, if it happens to be my friends from the Miletic team, they are

18     certainly quite capable of asking this witness any question they want

19     about these documents.

20             This witness has acknowledged and testified about rescuing these

21     children.  He has confirmed that it was the area of Burnice.  The witness

22     statement that I'm in the process of questioning him about refers to

23     being captured in Burnice, so frankly this objection is absolutely

24     without merit.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon, and let's bring it to a close,

Page 26603

 1     please.

 2             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  My colleague entirely

 3     misses the point.  They always come back with the same argument that this

 4     was put in some kind of Srebrenica folder back in February of 2006.  This

 5     is always the same thing that they are saying and we have the same

 6     argument.  There are rules of disclosure and those rules have not been

 7     followed.  If they know that we are going to call a witness and they have

 8     information, information that is against that witness, they have to

 9     disclose this to us.  This information about three kids that were saved

10     by one of our witnesses, it is entirely incorrect for them, that's the

11     question, they know we are calling the witness, they know what the

12     witness will talk about, they have the information, and they keep it in

13     their back pocket until the witness is on the stand.  That's why I say

14     that the Prosecution is abusing the Trial Chamber's order allowing them

15     to wait until cross-examination begins to file -- to give us a list of

16     documents.  Because that's when the list is given.  They sit there and

17     the minute that they get up for their first question they press on the

18     button and they issue their list by surprise, keeping this in their back

19     pocket.

20             Can my colleague tell me today that how many months he has known

21     about those kids and those documents that he did not give the Defence

22     hoping to take us by surprise?  He is not taking us by surprise.  He is

23     talking an honest witness and an honest man who came here to testify

24     about three kids that he saved, and now he is being completely taken by

25     surprise with documents that as a minimum he should have had the

Page 26604

 1     opportunity to have a look at before so he can explain his story and he

 2     can explain the difference.  We don't even know if those kids are the

 3     same ones that he is referring to.  There is no evidence to that other

 4     than an area.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Before we deliberate can either of you read out to

 6     us what was the contents of the 65 ter summary that was provided by the

 7     Nikolic Defence team to the Prosecution regards to this witness.

 8             MR. THAYER:  If I may have a moment, Your Honour, I can pull

 9     that.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I have it here.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, before you read out the 65 ter summary,

14     Mr. Bourgon, what kind of disclosure duties are you referring to in this

15     case?  Normal disclosure or any other special kind of disclosure?

16             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, the disclosure I'm referring to

17     could be right under Rule 68.  Now let me explain to you why it falls

18     under Rule 68.  In the Rule 65 ter summary we provided, we say that

19     Gavric testified before the International Tribunal in the Prosecutor

20     versus Blagojevic and Jokic case.  In that case when the witness

21     testified, he testified at length about saving those three kids.  If the

22     Prosecution has information that can tend to provide information as to

23     what this witness did with those three kids, they cannot hide this

24     information from us until cross-examination time.  This witness actually

25     saved those three kids --

Page 26605

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Bourgon, if you are referring

 2     specifically to Rule 68, in this case we are only possibly dealing with

 3     the first two paragraphs thereof, the first one refers to mitigatory or

 4     exculpatory material.  I don't understand you to be submitting that this

 5     is the kind of material in this case.  I don't understand it to be your

 6     submission.  If I'm not correct, please correct me strait away.

 7             The other paragraph which is the second one which is without

 8     prejudice to the exculpatory disclosure, exculpatory material, the

 9     Prosecution shall make available to the Defence in electronic form

10     collections of relevant material held by the Prosecutor together with

11     appropriate computer software with which the Defence can search such

12     collections electronically.  So if this is the case I'm just asking you

13     because we are trying to find a solution to this impasse between, but if

14     you could be more specific, please.

15             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, if the Prosecution possesses

16     information that confirms that our witness that we will present actually

17     saved three kids, it goes to his credibility.  It can affect the way his

18     testimony will be seen by the Trial Chamber, and they ought to give that

19     information to us.  Because the information, those statements from the

20     kids, they were obtained by them.  I don't know if it was a time when

21     they still wanted him to testify before certain person pleaded guilty,

22     but when they obtained that information, there was a purpose for the

23     Prosecution obtaining this information, obtaining those statements.

24     These have to be disclosed to the Defence if they know about it and if

25     they know we are going to call the witness.  They are completely taking

Page 26606

 1     us by surprise.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Rule 68 (1) does not include the material which

 3     would affect credibility of the Defence evidence.  Only Prosecution

 4     evidence.  So how does it fall under Rule 68 material?  It's a disclosure

 5     of exhibits to be used during the cross-examination, which should be

 6     guided by the guideline.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  And let's listen also to the summary that you

 8     provided and I'll of course give you an opportunity.

 9             MR. BOURGON:  Yes, I can read that summary, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please.

11             MR. BOURGON:  It was a very short summary.  It referred

12     specifically the fact that Gavric testified before the international

13     Tribunal in the Blagojevic case and that he will state that on 17 July,

14     the day that he conducted the sweep operation, that's not written there,

15     he saw in Konjevic Polje area an enormous number of bodies of dead enemy

16     soldiers.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, if I could just ask my friend to

18     read the summary as it's written, at least the summary I have here which

19     is different.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  There are two summaries?

21             MR. BOURGON:  I will read exactly the summary.  Gavric testified

22     before the international Tribunal in the Prosecutor versus Blagojevic and

23     Jokic, case number IT-0260.  Gavric will provide evidence confirming that

24     Dragan Obrenovic slept at the Zvornik Brigade command during the night

25     between 14 and 15 July 1995.  He will also state that on the morning of

Page 26607

 1     15 July 1995, Drago Nikolic was present at the Zvornik Brigade command.

 2     Gavric will finally state that on 17 July, he saw in the Konjevic Polje

 3     area an enormous number of bodies of dead enemy soldiers.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Would you like to add anything else before we

 7     conclude this debate.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead.

10             MR. BOURGON:  Proofing notes were disclosed to the Prosecution on

11     30 September.  In these proofing notes we specifically referred to the

12     fact that the witness did not when reading -- when questioned about his

13     testimony in the Blagojevic case indicated to us any material differences

14     from what he testified then to what he will testify the next day.  With

15     that information, Mr. President, the Prosecution was fully aware that we

16     would speak about what happened on the 17th of July, the search

17     operation, and those three kids.  They obtained specific information for

18     that purpose which must be disclosed to the Defence before their

19     cross-examination start so at least the witness is not taken like this by

20     surprise for something that he did that was good.

21             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Bourgon, I still am not clear on your response

22     to Judge Kwon's question, which was, how does this obligation arise under

23     Rule 68 in terms of the provisions of paragraph 1, where is the

24     obligation you're talking about on the Prosecution to disclose to the

25     Defence before their cross-examination starts?  Where does that flow from

Page 26608

 1     Rule 68 in this instance?

 2             MR. BOURGON:  Judge, I thank you for your question.  I mentioned

 3     Rule 68 I can build an argument on Rule 68.  I prefer maybe to simply put

 4     the obligations of the Prosecution on simple decency when they know that

 5     we will lead a witness and they take us by surprise by not giving us that

 6     information.

 7             JUDGE PROST:  And you are saying there is a different obligation

 8     on the Prosecution in cross-examination than there is on the Defence.

 9     Because you certainly wouldn't argue that the Defence would have an

10     obligation to disclose that material in advance.

11             MR. BOURGON:  I agree with you, Judge, I think there's

12     definitely, a definite different between what applies to the Prosecution

13     and what applies to the Defence.  The basic difference, Judge, that we --

14     that is very often in our view not being maybe taken into consideration

15     to its right importance is the fact that the Prosecution has a different

16     duty.  They have to meet their case beyond a reasonable doubt, they have

17     the burden of proof, and if they have evidence in their possession, they

18     have to disclose that.

19             It is the right of an accused to know the case he has to meet.

20     If I say to the Prosecution, I have a witness, and this witness will come

21     and say something and they have information that will affect that

22     evidence, they have to disclose it to me, if they have it.

23             JUDGE PROST:  I have your point.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Josse, please let's not

25     compound it any further, but please go ahead.

Page 26609

 1             MR. JOSSE:  That's exactly what I wanted to hear, Your Honour,

 2     really is this:  If the ruling impacts only on this witness, then of

 3     course we have nothing to add but if this is being blown up into some

 4     general discussion about Rule 66 and Rule 68, apropos Defence witnesses

 5     and Prosecution obligations, then we do have submissions.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  I would understand that.  Thank you.  That brings

 7     to an end this discussion.  Let me confer one last time with my

 8     colleagues.  Mr. Thayer, would you like to add anything or I thought you

 9     were renouncing to that.

10             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just again to confirm, that this

11     material was disclosed to the Defence February 22nd, 2006 by Ms. Stewart

12     in an e-mail which attaches a spreadsheet which lists these witnesses'

13     names.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  We will have the break now because it's quarter to

17     6.00, 25 minutes, and after that we'll come back with our decision and

18     then we will continue with the testimony and finish.  I want to make sure

19     that you finish this witness today.

20             MR. THAYER:  No question, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

22                           --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  So to conclude the chapter, having heard your

25     respective submissions and having discussed amongst ourselves, we see the

Page 26610

 1     position as either side as follows:  Given the circumstances, namely what

 2     the circumstances that both of you have described, we do not see that in

 3     any case there has been any kind of transgression, violation of the rules

 4     of disclosure in this case as regards this witness much so let's proceed.

 5             As far as the point raised by Ms. Bourgon, Madam Bourgon, I think

 6     -- Madam Fauveau, sorry, my apologies to you, Mr. Bourgon, and to you,

 7     Ms. Fauveau.  It's not the first time that I have mixed this up.  I hope

 8     it will be the last.

 9             As far as your -- the point raised by you, I think it's a matter

10     of testimony which we will evaluate at the end of the day.  If there is

11     no evidence that we are talking of the same individuals, then obviously

12     we are going to discard what deserves to be discarded.

13             Yes, let's continue.  And conclude, please.

14             Mr. Bourgon, I'm glad I didn't address you as Mr. Fauveau.

15     Mr. Bourgon, will there be a redirect?

16             MR. BOURGON:  Yes, there will be, Mr. President.  I figure about

17     20 minutes.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  About 20 minutes.  Okay.  Will you conclude,

19     please, Mr. Thayer, thank you, allowing 20 minutes or so for Mr. Bourgon.

20     We've still got till 7.00.

21             MR. THAYER:  I'll do my best within that 15 minutes,

22     Mr. President.

23        Q.   Now, sir, let's see if we still have 3786 on the screen.  If we

24     can go to the first page of the B/C/S, please.  We can see that Azmir

25     Jusufovic told the OTP that he was captured in Burnice, he recalls that

Page 26611

 1     it was in the afternoon hours possibly the 18th of July 1995.  And if we

 2     go to the second page he indicates that he was taken to the Kaolin

 3     factory in Bratunac.

 4             Now, sir, as far as you are aware, was there any other group of

 5     Muslim children who were rescued by a VRS officer during this day sweep

 6     or during this period when you were conducting this sweep and that who

 7     were brought to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?

 8        A.   This boy, Jusufovic, you say that he was 16.  At the time he told

 9     me he was 14 and that he was from Kasaba near Milici.  I remember him

10     well.  As for the other two children, they may have been 9 or 10, I think

11     they were two twin brothers.  Nice kids.  On the 17th in the evening is

12     when I arrived and handed them over to the Bratunac Brigade command.

13     That is what I said a moment ago and I don't know whether there's any

14     need to repeat.

15        Q.   I don't think so, sir.  I think we can agree, can we not, that

16     Mr. Ju sufovic was simply off by a day when he told us that it was on the

17     18th, when I think we can all agree it was on the 17th?

18        A.   He was taken on the 18th from the Bratunac Brigade to be

19     exchanged.

20        Q.   What I meant was, the day he was captured, if he said I was

21     captured on the 18th, he is off by a day and we can agree on that;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes, we can.

24        Q.   Now, the question I asked you before all the excitement was, he

25     told the OTP that, and I quote:  "He saw a soldier who had a bundle of

Page 26612

 1     approximately 30 to 50 lengths of silver colour wire which were folded in

 2     half and were hanging on his belt.  He saw the Serb soldiers tying up the

 3     Muslim prisoners with such wire."

 4             Again I just want to find out from you sir, does that change your

 5     testimony, does it refresh your recollection in any way as to whether it

 6     was a string I think as you told us or whether it was wire?

 7        A.   I don't know what would needed for me to change it.  If it was

 8     silver wire, I would say it was rather expensive piece of metal.  We did

 9     not have that.  We had strings that we used to tie the people up.

10        Q.   Now, if we can go back to 3787, please.  This is the statement of

11     Haso Hasanovic.  If we could go to page 5 of the English and that will be

12     the last page of the B/C/S again before the witness acknowledgement.

13     We'll need the prior page, please.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

15             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Before we move on to those

16     paragraphs, could the Prosecutor please determine on what date the boys

17     were taken prisoner?  It is the fourth page in the English and I believe

18     the -- towards the end of the statement in the B/C/S.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

20             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I if I may just continue my

21     cross-examination so I can finish in time.  If my friend has any question

22     she thinks need to be asked, we --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  She won't be in a position to ask questions, no, so

24     let's accommodate Madam Fauveau if you can and proceed without major --

25             MR. THAYER:  I'm not even sure what the page she is referring to

Page 26613

 1     is.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Page 4, the first paragraph.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Of the English version.  Okay.

 4             MR. THAYER:

 5        Q.   Now, sir, there's reference in this statement to the 15th of July

 6     Mr. Hasanovic saying he was captured.  As we just talked about with this

 7     other boy that you say you knew well, doesn't it sound like he is off by

 8     a couple of days in his recollection of the dates?  I mean, there's no

 9     disagreement, is there, among us that these boys were rescued by you on

10     the 17th of July?  There's no doubt in your mind about that date, is

11     there, sir?

12        A.   First of all, I don't know if those are the children, the same

13     children that I referred to.  I don't know if somebody found some other

14     children in another area.  It cannot be on the 15th.  I was not in the

15     field then.  It is on that day that I returned from Zvornik and was on

16     leave.  I was deployed on the 17th, as I've already stated.

17        Q.   Well, you'll recall, sir, when I asked but this boy just a few

18     minutes ago, Haso Hasanovic, you were quite certain that when he was

19     describing a Serb soldier saving his life from somebody that wanted to

20     slaughter him, that volunteer you spoke about, you had no hesitation

21     identifying yourself as that person; right?

22        A.   That child was 9 years old.  I quite doubt that his dates are

23     correct.  I have some other information.  There was another group that I

24     saved and they survived.  They told me that they had to undergo special

25     proofings or preparations when approached by the Prosecution.

Page 26614

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Could we please see the first page

 3     of this statement and date of birth of the boy.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 5             MR. THAYER:  This is the 16-year-old boy that I --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's proceed.

 7             MR. THAYER:  -- spoke about earlier.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  And you interviewed him on -- in 1996?

 9             MR. THAYER:  He was interviewed in 1996, that's correct,

10     Mr. President.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's proceed.

12             MR. THAYER:

13        Q.   Sir, trying my best to finish up in the time, but you just

14     referred to some other group of boys that you rescued that we've never

15     heard about either in your Blagojevic testimony or in any proofing note

16     or anywhere else, so I want to make sure that we are not withholding

17     anything from the Trial Chamber.  Why don't you tell us now what you are

18     talking about, because I just asked you whether there was any other group

19     that you were aware of that was rescued from the area of Burnice during

20     this period of time and you said no, so now you are telling us that there

21     was a group.  Why don't you tell us about that, sir.

22        A.   Those were not children.  It was a group that was captured after

23     the Srebrenica operation in Alibegovic, in the area of Srebrenica.  I

24     think it comprised five or six people.

25        Q.   Right.  Now, that was something entirely different, sir.  That

Page 26615

 1     was in October of 1995 in the southwest area of Srebrenica, Alibegovic,

 2     as you said and those were adult males who you drove personally to a

 3     place that begins wise a K, and I am afraid I can't remember the name but

 4     I'm sure you can tell the Trial Chamber what that place was that you

 5     drove the seven adults --

 6        A.   Sokolac Knezina.

 7        Q.   I'm not even going to try to pronounce that, sir, but we are not

 8     talking about boys there, are we, we are talking about an entirely

 9     different group of people from the boys that you rescued on the 17th;

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.  I wanted to point that out because it can be of assistance

12     for the Court and perhaps for someone who was accused.

13        Q.   Okay.  So just one last time, sir, to your knowledge, there was

14     no other group of young boys or boys of any age other than the ones that

15     you rescued to your knowledge in that area of Burnice during that period

16     of time when you were conducting that sweep that were taken to the Kaolin

17     factory Bratunac command; right?

18        A.   As far as I remember, I can tell you about the three children

19     only.  The next day when the children were supposed to leave, I went to

20     Sokolac.

21        Q.   Now, going back, if we can, to the --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes Ms. Nikolic.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we don't have

24     the witness's complete answer.  He said that the next day I went to

25     Sokolac, and he seems to have trailed off, perhaps the witness can repeat

Page 26616

 1     what he said after the word "Sokolac".

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Can you complete your answer or repeat it,

 3     please, because the interpreters didn't catch up the last part of it.

 4     You said the next day when the children were supposed to leave, I went to

 5     Sokolac.  What else did you say after that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I said that I don't know if anyone

 7     else had the children.  I went to Sokolac.  I don't know.

 8             MR. THAYER:

 9        Q.   Now, sir, if you look at this page that we have on e-court, from

10     the statement of Mr. Haso Hasanovic, he refers to some people, some other

11     men and young men who he was captured with.  He names Sejdalija Oric

12     about 40 years old from Lehovici; Munib Cvrk about 50 years from

13     Brosevci; his son Semir about 18 years also from Brosevci; Ramiz, surname

14     unknown, about 18 years from Bobuljica; his brother Mirso about 22 years

15     old -- 22 years also were there, and Fahrudin Ademovic about 17 years

16     from Susnjari.

17             Now, if we may go into private session for a quick moment,

18     Mr. President.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's do that.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26617

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

15             MR. THAYER:

16        Q.   Now, sir, according to the autopsy reports of those individuals,

17     the people that it's the Prosecution's contention are those same people

18     that Mr. Hasanovic listed as being captured at the same time as he was in

19     Burnice, the autopsy reports, and I'll just quickly say for the record

20     P0613 at pages 119 to 122, 127 to 130, 143 to 146, and P615 pages 108 to

21     112 and 171 to 174, each of these bodies were found with multiple bullets

22     and bullets fragments in their remains in the Cerska mass grave.  And my

23     investigation in the last two days took me to an exhumation report by a

24     Dr. Haglund, that's 65 ter 611, and at page Roman numeral (viii), he

25     found that from that mass grave there were a total of 48 wire ligatures

Page 26618

 1     recovered from 38 individuals.

 2             Sir, my question to you is, having heard this information about

 3     these individuals who were captured at Burnice winding up in this mass

 4     grave in Cerska, 38 individuals with wire ligatures, does that change

 5     your recollection at all about whether these individuals, number one,

 6     were tied with twine, with string, or with wire ligatures?  That's my

 7     first question.

 8        A.   I don't know who those people are, if those are the same people.

 9     But after they were tied with string, no one probably needed to use any

10     wire.  If I understood well, when you were talking about that child's

11     statement, you mentioned that there were some grownups in the prison in

12     the same cell with them, if I understood properly.

13        Q.   Sir, does this information change your belief at all that the

14     information that you had that those prisoners, those 38 prisoners that

15     you consistently remember being captured in Burnice, that they were

16     exchanged?

17        A.   I don't remember anything about those people.  I keep saying, as

18     I did in my previous testimony, that I don't know what fate befell those

19     people.  All I know is that the children were safe and sound and that

20     they now reside in Tuzla, at least they were there the last time I was

21     there.

22             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, sir, I have no further questions.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.  Mr. Bourgon.

24             MR BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  After all this

25     excitement --

Page 26619

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's keep it low key and proceed and conclude

 2     because we have to decide what is going to happen tomorrow as well.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

 4        Q.   I only have a few questions for you, sir.

 5        A.   Go ahead.

 6        Q.   In the period from January to July of 1995 are you aware of

 7     orders that were issued to the Bratunac Brigade amongst others not to

 8     fire your guns on the town of Srebrenica?

 9        A.   As far as I know, we were forbidden to open any fire at the

10     general area of the Srebrenica enclave.  I think it was on the 17th of

11     April 1993, that it happened the last time.  On the 18th it was the

12     orthodox Easter and as of that day onwards, it was strictly forbidden.

13        Q.   Now, many questions were put to you concerning the 25th of May

14     1995 by my colleague.  I only have one very simple question.  To the best

15     of your recollection, when shots were fired in the direction of

16     Srebrenica on that day, was it as a result of incoming fire on friendly

17     forces?

18        A.   It is my opinion that a decision was made to return fire because

19     to fire from a tank from a safe area, that is something I cannot

20     comprehend.  How come they had a tank there?

21        Q.   If I can have in e-court please, 5D1161.  I would like to have

22     page 4 in English.  Well, let's start with the first page in both English

23     and B/C/S.  Just so you know what this document is, before I turn to the

24     section I want to ask you about, this is a report from the Main Staff of

25     the army of the Republika Srpska, and it is addressed, first of all, to

Page 26620

 1     the president of Republika Srpska, but as well as to the command of the

 2     corps and we see in the second line Drina Corps.  Do you see this, sir?

 3        A.   I'm not with you.  I don't know what you are aiming at.

 4        Q.   I just wanted you to say -- to -- whether you can confirm that

 5     this is a report from the Main Staff to, amongst others, the Drina Corps,

 6     and that it is dated the 25th of May 1995?  And then I will put a

 7     question to you on a section of this document.

 8        A.   The Main Staff sent this to the Drina Corps, he could not send it

 9     to a brigade command.  It had to follow the chain of subordination with

10     the corps command on the top, and from there orders would come down the

11     line of command to lower units.

12        Q.   If I can turn on this document, please, and have page 4 in

13     English, and page 5 in B/C/S.  Sir, I'd like to draw your attention where

14     it says at paragraph 6 of this document, which refers to "in the zone of

15     operations of the Drina Corps."  I will read this in English where it

16     says, paragraph (a):  "The enemy in the zone of operations of the corps,

17     the focus of enemy activities was on positions of the 1st Birac Infantry

18     Brigade which were attacked by with 82 millimetre mortars.  At 10.45 the

19     enemy fired four projectiles on the village of Kiseljak killing a woman.

20     At paragraph (b) it reads:  "The situation in the corps, the units

21     responded to enemy fire in a timely manner, targeting the observed

22     targets.  All corps units are maintaining the highest level of combat

23     readiness.  Artillery fire was opened on the Srebrenica and Gorazde

24     enclaves as well as the Tuzla airport.  Units have been placed at the

25     highest level of combat readiness."

Page 26621

 1             Sir, does this information which of course would not have been

 2     available to you, because it was only sent to the corps, but the

 3     operational situation depicted in this document, does that match what you

 4     perceive on that day that the Bratunac Brigade responded to enemy fire

 5     when those shots were fired on Srebrenica?

 6        A.   The only thing that matches this what happened on the 20th of May

 7     at 7.10 and I told you what happened then and I don't know about the

 8     rest, I don't know when it was that an enemy group was infiltrated and

 9     killed a soldier in the area of Zargon [phoen] and on the following day

10     or even on the same day there was an ambush in Zeleni, there were four or

11     five of our men were killed, among them was a police officer called Ostra

12     who had been called from retirement.  He had been retired before.

13        Q.   Sir, I'd just like to confirm, at the paragraph I'm referring to,

14     I'm not sure if you have it before you, is 6(b) and at 6(b) it says the

15     units and situation in the corps, the units responded to enemy fire in a

16     timely manner, and then it talks about fire was opened on the Srebrenica.

17     Does that matches your information that when the Bratunac Brigade fired

18     any shells on Srebrenica, it was in response to enemy fire?

19        A.   I'm only aware of the thing that happened on the 20th of May at

20     7.10.  I don't know anything else.

21        Q.   If I could have in e-court 3358.  P3358.  Sir, this is a document

22     that was shown to you by my colleague during cross-examination, and it's

23     a document that bears your name and where we see that Colonel Lazic is

24     mentioned.  Bearing in mind the questions that were put to you by

25     Mr. Karnavas in the Blagojevic case, bearing in mind the questions that

Page 26622

 1     were put to you by myself yesterday, and the questions that were put to

 2     you today by the Prosecution, to the best of your recollection, why was

 3     the name of Colonel Lazic included on this document?

 4        A.   Colonel Lazic must have been at the Bratunac Brigade at the time.

 5     That's why his name is mentioned together with the brigade commander's

 6     name as a person who had either order us directly or who had

 7     alternatively conveyed somebody else's order to return fire.

 8        Q.   And, sir, do you know, and I insist on the words know, do you

 9     have knowledge, if this Colonel Lazic had any authority to order the

10     Bratunac Brigade to fire on Srebrenica?

11        A.   I know nothing about that particular authority.

12        Q.   Sir, my colleague put questions to you concerning the locations

13     of your gun positions, one of which was the B1 battery in the Repovac,

14     and you answered that the guns located there were the 76 millimetre guns.

15     My question is the following:  This battery position, the soldiers that

16     occupied this position, are those the ones that you picked up on the

17     night of the 14th or the 15th when you travelled by bus from Bratunac to

18     Zvornik?

19        A.   Yes, that part of the unit went down or rather came down and

20     accompanied me to Zvornik.

21        Q.   Sir, do you know a soldier by the name of Todor Gavric, and is he

22     one of the soldiers that served on this gun position?

23        A.   Yes, I know he was a member of the crew, and his battery

24     commander was Stevo Ilic.

25        Q.   And, sir, as the chief of artillery in the Bratunac Brigade was

Page 26623

 1     it your role to relay the firing orders given to you by your commander or

 2     to issue your own orders to fire on your own authority?  What was your

 3     role as the chief of artillery in this regard?

 4        A.   My role was to carry out the orders of the brigade commander to

 5     whom I was subordinated.  I could give him my proposals but he had the

 6     last word.  Save for a very exceptional moment when the commander gave me

 7     his authority to act in cases of major threats posed against our

 8     positions.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.  At page 26479, which is yesterday -- well, let

10     me first.  My colleague asked you a question about the fact that

11     Obrenovic was sleeping that night, and he asked you a number of questions

12     as to what you stated in the Blagojevic case in this respect.  Now,

13     yesterday at page 26479 you stated based on the information received that

14     night, it was your view that Obrenovic was in his office probably

15     resting.  Do you have any reason to believe or any information which will

16     allow you to believe that Obrenovic was not resting in his office that

17     night?

18        A.   If he had been anywhere further afield, the duty operations

19     officer would have called him by phone.  But since he didn't do that, but

20     physically left the room and go somewhere, I can only suppose that he

21     actually physically went to see Obrenovic and convey my message to him.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Today you were asked some questions about the

23     encounter with someone who you stated and there were discussions about

24     name Lukic.  First, I would like to come back to what you said in the

25     Blagojevic case, and I quote from page 8510 in the transcript.  The

Page 26624

 1     question was put to you at lines 21:  "All right.  Do you know where

 2     Mr. Lukic was from?  Do you know at that point in time?"  Answer line 23:

 3     "At that time I did not know.  Today I do know."

 4             Sir, all the questions were put to you yesterday and today, to

 5     the best of your recollection is that exactly the situation as it is?

 6        A.   I'm absolutely certain that I did not know that man.  I only

 7     supposed and I do still that it was Lukic.  However, a lot of people have

 8     read a lot of things about this man, Lukic, that he hails from the

 9     vicinity of Visegrad, that his brother was killed in an operation to

10     arrest either him or somebody else.  That's what I know about him.

11        Q.   One last question on this topic.  My colleague read to you part

12     of the transcript on the same page 8510, lines 16 to 17, and the question

13     my colleague read to you was:  "All right.  Let me ask you this, you

14     mentioned Lukic.  Does he have a first name?"  Your answer was:  "I don't

15     know his first name.  I don't know it to this day after all this time.

16     All I know is they referred to him as Lukic."

17             My question is, based on this part of the transcript which was

18     read to you, did at any point in time on the morning of the 15th July

19     1995 either Dusan Nikolic or Drago Nikolic refer to the first name or the

20     second name of that young man with the one uniform -- one-piece uniform

21     that you met?

22        A.   Yesterday when you questioned me and earlier today when the

23     Prosecutor questioned me, I said it loud and clear, when they came behind

24     me, had they known him, they would have referred to him by his first or

25     last name, Dule would have used his name as they were having that

Page 26625

 1     argument.  I'm 999 percent sure that they did not know him.  How could

 2     have they known him?  He just turned up there as an individual.  They

 3     could not know him.  They didn't know him, I'm sure of that.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I move to the last issue raised by my colleague,

 5     which is concerning those kids that you testified about yesterday and

 6     today.  My first question is, I'd like you to confirm, because I think

 7     you said that today, that you did not know and you still do not know

 8     their exact names; is that correct?

 9        A.   Correct, I don't know the name.  Some family names have been

10     mentioned, but they don't ring any bells.  The twins only told me that

11     they were from Karacici, which is a village near Srebrenica and the other

12     blond, an older child told me that he was 14, that he was from Kasaba and

13     that he was an orphan.  This is what the children told me and there was

14     no reason for me to double-check their words.  Why should I have done

15     that.

16        Q.   And sir, when you -- when this event took place, you mentioned

17     now specifically three kids that were separated and you mentioned what

18     you did about those three kids, but was there any other kid that day, was

19     there a fourth kid that you saved that day, to your recollection?

20        A.   No, no.  I don't know.  I mentioned three kids.  I described how

21     they looked, and these kids, I'm sure, would be able to recognise me.

22     I'm sure of that.

23        Q.   If I can have in e-court, please, 3786.  Sorry, 3787.  And in

24     English on page 4 of 9.  Now, let me read you a part of what appears

25     before you.  I don't think it is available in your language but I will

Page 26626

 1     read it to you, and that is at the end of the page -- it's also page 4 in

 2     B/C/S.  And I read four lines from the bottom of the before-last

 3     paragraph:  "I did not know the three --" sorry, just a bit higher:  "The

 4     man who was in charge said to let the children go and he cut the wire

 5     that tied my hands behind my back with a knife.  The commander then took

 6     me to the first bus and I sat in there and found another three kids.  I

 7     did not know the three, but I talked to one of them and he said he was

 8     Hasmir from Nova Kasaba and that he was around 15 years old, and he said

 9     that he had been caught an hour ago."  Sir, this fourth kid obviously

10     because the three kids are sitting in the bus, this fourth kid, it is

11     possible that it was not you that took this fourth kid or that was there

12     to cut the wire?

13        A.   First of all, is it possible to cut a piece of wire with a knife?

14     I doubt it.  And that child from Nova Kasaba is the child that contacted

15     us, surrendered, he wore a white T-shirt, he was the first one to

16     distance himself from the group, and then returned to the group and asked

17     them to surrender themselves and this is as much as I can remember.  I

18     remember the blond kid and I also remember the two twins and I really

19     can't recall a fourth child.  As far as I can remember, there were three

20     kids.  That's as much as I can recall.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Are you at the end, Mr. Bourgon?

22             MR. BOURGON:  This is it, Mr. President.  Thank you, I have no

23     further questions.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Gavric, on behalf of the Trial

25     Chamber I wish you thank you for having come over, on behalf of everyone

Page 26627

 1     I also wish you a safe journey back home.  You will now be assisted by

 2     our staff.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Documents?  Mr. Bourgon?

 6             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I don't know if the

 7     Trial Chamber has received our list of documents.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Two documents, no?

 9             MR. BOURGON:  Two documents.  The picture 3DIC 224, which the

10     witness marked.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  And 5D01161, 5D01161.

12             MR. BOURGON:  No, Mr. President, this is 5D1 --

13                           [Defence counsel confer].

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's what we have.

15             MR. BOURGON:  Yes, indeed Mr. President.  I had the wrong number

16     in front of me, it's 5D1161.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Any objection from anyone.  Mr. Thayer?

18             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Objections from the other Defence teams?  So these

20     two documents are admitted.  Now the Borovcanin team had also two

21     documents.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, we have two documents.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  We have the exhibit numbers 4DP00121 and 4DP00255.

24             MR. LAZAREVIC:  That's precisely.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from anyone?

Page 26628

 1             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  They are also admitted.  Then we have your

 3     exhibits, Mr. Thayer?

 4             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  We've circulated a list.  If I

 5     can recite them or we can just rely on the list that we've --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can rely on the list.

 7             MR. THAYER:  -- that we've distributed.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  No, Mr. President, I need to follow line by line

 9     because I have objections.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then we need to do it tomorrow.

11             MR. JOSSE:  If it helps in terms of time, we have submissions

12     about this list as well.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Seems it will take us some time.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  While we get a feedback from the rest of the staff

16     to see whether they are prepared to stay a little bit longer, you've had

17     this list already, Mr. Bourgon, can you indicate to us which ones you are

18     objecting to?  Did you follow, Mr. Bourgon?  And how long do you think

19     your submission will take?

20             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President.  Maybe if my colleague is ready, I

21     need 5 minutes just to look at the list but it will be very short but I

22     need to look at some of these issues especially those last statements

23     that I need to assess before I can say whether I oppose or not,

24     Mr. President.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

Page 26629

 1             MR. JOSSE:  Well, I can be precise.  It's 3786 and 3787 we object

 2     to but perhaps before I make my submission, I'd invite my learned friend

 3     to explain why he wants them in, for what purpose, because if he is

 4     prepared to concede that they are there for a limited purpose then I'm

 5     not going to pursue the point.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.  First of all, what is the

 7     position with the interpreters and everyone?  Okay, we go on a little bit

 8     more, but please try to be reasonable and keep your comments as brief as

 9     possible.

10             Yes, Mr. Thayer?

11             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, our position has been not to

12     introduce the entire statement when a portion is read.  Given the

13     excitement that we had about these statements, we would offer them for

14     whatever purpose the Trial Chamber deems appropriate.  My friends

15     complained about their alleged late disclosure.  If there's any arguments

16     that they want to make, we thought it would be the best practice to give

17     the Court the entire statement.  If the Court decides it doesn't want it

18     that's fine.  It's absolutely fine with us.  It's not our practice to

19     offer the entire statement.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

21             MR. JOSSE:  That doesn't really help a great deal frankly.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let me -- give me one minute so that I consult with

23     my colleagues.

24             MR. JOSSE:  Thank you.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 26630

 1             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Josse and Mr. Bourgon, it's a bit difficult in

 2     the situation because Mr. Thayer utilized portions of the statement in

 3     questioning the witness, and those portions will obviously be on the

 4     record.  If there are suggestions as to the -- the identification of

 5     these boys and whether they were the same children, it may be to the

 6     advantage of the Defence to have the whole statement in for the purposes

 7     of us assessing that whole issue.  So but if the Defence is objecting to

 8     their admissibility, that would be the purpose for which the Trial

 9     Chamber is of the view that those statements in their entirety might be

10     of benefit.

11             MR. JOSSE:  Speaking on behalf the Gvero Defence, Your Honour, we

12     would have no objection to the admissibility of the whole statement on

13     that basis, in other words, if it purely was considered in the context of

14     this witness's evidence.  I have no objection to that.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you Mr. Josse and thank you Judge Prost.

16     Ms. Fauveau?

17             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

18     join the objections that have been raised by Mr. Josse.  We don't have

19     any objections if these documents are admitted for a limited aim, but as

20     far as the veracity of the statement, I don't think it can be done for

21     that purpose.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  That would have never been in our mind in any case.

23     So Mr. Bourgon?

24             MR. BOURGON:  We take the same position, Mr. President, we thank

25     the Trial Chamber, we also agree that the statement should go in in their

Page 26631

 1     entirety but for the limited purpose identified by the Trial Chamber.

 2     And having looked at the list, although I do have a standing objection

 3     that we will put on paper definitely regarding Rule 65 ter and the way

 4     that the Prosecution is by the back door introducing a large quantity of

 5     new documents and new evidence as part of the Defence case which is

 6     entirely contrary to what it should do, Mr. President, other than that we

 7     have no objections for the documents.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So we are all admitted.  Now,

 9     Mr. Bourgon in particular, we received information in the course of the

10     day, actually first thing that reached us this morning that there is some

11     problem, major problem with the witness that you had planned to produce

12     tomorrow against whom a subpoena was issued.  My understanding is that

13     the subpoena has been served, but there is a practical problem in that he

14     hasn't -- he is not in possession of a passport as yet.  He has applied

15     for one and that it is anticipated that he may be available, probably

16     will be available mid-October or so.  Is that information correct to

17     start with?

18             MR. BOURGON:  To begin with, yes, Mr. President that is correct.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  And having said that, what are your plans?  Shall

20     we start -- on Monday of course we'll start with the Borovcanin Defence

21     and you will make arrangements in due course with the Borovcanin Defence

22     to fit in your witness sometime in October or November or whenever you --

23             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, there are other developments that I

24     wish to inform the Trial Chamber about.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please.

Page 26632

 1             MR. BOURGON:  But before I do so, I need to put on the record

 2     that when the issue came out of this witness obviously we probably did a

 3     mistake by not requesting the protective measures along with the

 4     subpoena, although we thought that we had implicitly done so by

 5     requesting the confidentiality of the subpoena.  What I feel important to

 6     put on the record today is that I failed to understand the stance taken

 7     by the Prosecution concerning the fact that this witness should not be

 8     given protective measures and their opposition after I explained to my

 9     colleague exactly what the situation of the witness was.

10             Further, to our application the Trial Chamber rendered its

11     decision that it would interview the witness.  For the past few days we

12     have been trying to contact the witness, and we did so very recently,

13     very, very recently after he has been issued with a subpoena, we

14     explained to him this interview process and due to his state of mind and

15     for the reasons that I indicated previously to the Trial Chamber, we will

16     be withdrawing the witness, Mr. President.  Which puts an end to the case

17     for the Defence of Drago Nikolic.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you very much, Mr. Bourgon.  Would you like

19     to have anything discussed tomorrow?

20             MR. BOURGON:  No, Mr. President, but if we have a couple of more

21     minutes.  First I'd like to say that withdrawing the witness implies

22     maybe a request that the subpoena be cancelled, the subpoena that was

23     issued again the witness.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We'll look at that and we'll do that.

25             MR. BOURGON:  And we had planned to -- we had anticipated to

Page 26633

 1     finish earlier today and one thing that we wanted to do at the end the

 2     presentation of the case for the Defence is to read out two letters that

 3     we've received from witnesses who appeared during our case, two -- one is

 4     from the witness 3DW1 which was the Colonel Landry who testified last

 5     week and one was witness from the previous week.

 6             Both witnesses thought it was absolutely necessary to underscore

 7     the outstanding service and the assistance they received while they were

 8     here, especially by the victims and witness's section.  They were very

 9     impressed and they left the Tribunal with a very very good impression.

10     We had statements to read, but due to the time we won't read the

11     statements but we think it's important to pass on the message.  They said

12     that they like -- their experience was something that they will remember

13     in a positive sense.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  And that's pleasant music

15     to our ears.  What we will do is if my colleagues agree and I'm sure they

16     will, is that I would ask you to file these letters if you have no

17     problems in doing that, and once they are filed, the registrar is to

18     communicate a copy of the letters to the president of this Tribunal and

19     to the registrar and to the registrar and to the head of the division,

20     victims and witness's division.  Thank you Mr. Bourgon.

21             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, I was about to forget something due

22     to the time, I'm sorry, there are just -- of course this ends the

23     presentation of the case for the Defence of Drago Nikolic.  However, that

24     is of course subject to some motions that we still have to file.  I

25     indicated that last week.  We will be filing these motions.  And also one

Page 26634

 1     very important issue, and that was that obviously as you saw,

 2     Mr. President, the accused did not make a statement at this time.

 3     However, it is very likely that he will be requesting to make such a

 4     statement at a later time, whether it is part or not part of the case for

 5     the Defence.  This is something that is still being considered very

 6     actively.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll reserve our position on that.  Before we

 8     conclude, I would like on behalf of the Trial Chamber to thank the -- all

 9     the staff, registry, our own staff, the recorders, the interpreters, the

10     technicians and of course all of you present here for having cooperated

11     and overstayed by almost 20 minutes.  Thank you very much.  We will

12     reconvene on Monday and Mr. Lazarevic, you will start with your Defence

13     case.  Thank you.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

15                           7.17 p.m. to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day

16                           of October 2008, at 9.00 a.m.