Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26942

 1                           Friday, 10 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Pandurevic not present]

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, everybody.  Good morning, Registrar.

 8     Could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning, Your Honours.

10     Good morning, everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case

11     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

14             Accused Pandurevic is absent today as well, explanation was

15     provided yesterday.  The Prosecution team today is like yesterday,

16     Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.  Absent from the Defence teams, I notice

17     Mr. Nikolic, Ms. Nikolic, Mr. Petrusic, Mr. Krgovic, and Mr. Haynes; but

18     I have to keep looking because some of them could be behind the column.

19             So the witness is here.

20             Good morning, to you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are going to proceed and finish with your

23     testimony.

24             Mr. Thayer has -- how much more time do you need?

25             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.

Page 26943

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Morning.

 2             MR. THAYER:  I believe I will need the hour I referred to

 3     yesterday.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Go ahead.

 5                           WITNESS:  ZARKO ZARIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:  [Continued]

 8        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   Just a couple of quick questions about some of your prior

11     interviews.  Before you came here to The Hague to testify, can you tell

12     us how many times you met with the Borovcanin Defence team?

13        A.   I met Mr. Lazarevic twice, and once I had a meeting with a lady,

14     Ms. Or Mrs.

15        Q.   And can you recall when those interviews were?  Just a year and a

16     month would be fine?

17        A.   Perhaps three months ago, I met with a gentleman and, then some

18     20 days ago, I met with both of them.

19        Q.   And you no doubt recall being interviewed by the investigators

20     for SIPA, the Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo in June of this year;

21     correct?

22        A.   It is, yes.

23        Q.   And can you just tell me, do you recall whether you met with the

24     Borovcanin Defence team before you were interviewed which the SIPA team,

25     after you were interviewed by the SIPA team, or before and after you were

Page 26944

 1     interviewed by the SIPA team?

 2        A.   I met with Mr. Lazarevic before that interview once, and when I

 3     met with the two of them together, that was following the interview.

 4        Q.   Okay.  When you say "I met with the two of them together

 5     following the interview," I take it by that you mean you met with the two

 6     investigators from SIPA after you had met with Mr. Lazarevic; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Could you please repeat.

 9        Q.   Okay.  My question is - I'll just ask the question again - do you

10     recall whether you met the investigators from the Prosecutor's Office in

11     Sarajevo before or after you had met with Mr. Lazarevic?

12        A.   I met with the investigators after I had met with Mr. Lazarevic,

13     and the interview with the investigators was before the meeting at which

14     I met with Mr. Lazarevic and the lady.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer, what does the acronym SIPA stand

16     for, for the record.

17             MR. THAYER:  I'll get that.  It's -- bear with me one moment,

18     Your Honour.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Explain to us what it means.

20             MR. THAYER:  It stands with the agency that's charged with

21     investigating war crimes.  I can't remember the exact title.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  In Bosnia.

23             MR. THAYER:  In Bosnia, that's correct, based in Sarajevo.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's go ahead.

25             MR. THAYER:

Page 26945

 1        Q.   Now, sir, you testified that Radomir Pantic was the commander of

 2     the 1st Company Zvornik PJP yesterday, and there were six companies in

 3     total; is that correct?

 4        A.   He was the company commander, and there were five or six, I'm not

 5     sure.

 6        Q.   And who within the PJP formation was Mr. Pantic's commander in

 7     July of 1995?

 8        A.   Mr. Pantic's commander and superior was Mr. Danilo Zoljic, aka

 9     Daca.

10        Q.   Just for the record, sir, do you know what Mr. Zoljic's

11     occupation or position was, if any, outside of his role within the PJP?

12        A.   All I know is that he commanded the joint detachment comprising

13     those companies at the level of the centre.  He commanded all six

14     companies, if there were six, indeed.

15        Q.   Okay.  Sir, I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions to

16     see whether you can help us put names to a couple of faces.  And if I

17     understand correctly, whereas the third platoon of the 1st Company

18     Zvornik PJP was comprised of police officers from various police

19     stations, such as Milici, Bratunac, Sekovici, Vlasenici, Skelani, the

20     first platoon was comprised mostly, if not entirely, of Zvornik police

21     officers.  Do I have that correct, sir?

22        A.   Yes, you do.

23        Q.   Now, you referred yesterday to an officer with the surname Ikonic

24     being deployed near you at Sandici; do you recall that?

25        A.   I'm not sure I understood properly.  Officer Ikonic?

Page 26946

 1        Q.   Yes, sir.  You referred yesterday to -- by last name to somebody

 2     named Ikonic being deployed with you in your area in Sandici; do you

 3     recall that?

 4        A.   Policeman Ikonic, yes.

 5        Q.   That's right.  When I say "officer," I mean police officer, sir.

 6     I apologise.  Now, in your statement to the Prosecutor's Office in

 7     Sarajevo, you recalled that one of the colleagues who went with you on

 8     this mission was named Rista Ikonic.  Is that the Ikonic where you were

 9     referring to yesterday, sir, a police officer from Zvornik?

10        A.   Yes, Rista Ikonic.

11        Q.   And do you know another police officer from Zvornik by the name

12     of Mile Savic?  He now works for the border police, I think.

13        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with the name.

14        Q.   Okay.  I just want to very quickly show you a clip from a video

15     and just see if you can put a name to a face.

16             MR. THAYER:  And if we could begin rolling the clip.

17        Q.   Sir, what I'm going to do is, we are going to freeze the frame at

18     a certain point, and if it's too blurry, I have a photographic printout,

19     just a still, to show you the old-fashioned way if we need it.  Okay?

20                           [Videotape played]

21             MR. THAYER:  We've paused the clip at 2 hours 38 minutes and

22     7 seconds.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you need the sound or not because I didn't

24     get -- do you need sound because I didn't get any sound.

25             MR. THAYER:  No, that's okay, Mr. President, we don't need sound.

Page 26947

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 2             MR. THAYER:

 3        Q.   Sir, let me just hand you - with Madam Usher's assistance - a

 4     still that was taken from that.  It might be a little better.  I just

 5     want to ask you:  There's an individual to the left who looks a little

 6     bit younger than the man in the right of this photograph.  Do you

 7     recognise the man on the left?

 8        A.   I don't.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

10             MR. THAYER:  We are done with this clip.

11        Q.   I just want to show you quickly one other clip and see if you can

12     put a name to a face for us.

13                           [Videotape played]

14             MR. THAYER:  And this location is the meadow in Sandici or across

15     from the meadow in Sandici, near the destroyed white house that I think

16     you have referred to previously.  We don't have the audio, but there's

17     somebody calling out to Mile, and let me show you the still because it

18     captures an individual.

19             Let me hand you the video still, sir.  Here we go.  Now, we've

20     paused at 2 hours, 52 minutes, 32.2 seconds.

21             Sir, there are two individuals depicted in this video still.  The

22     individual on the far right has ID'd himself as Mile Savic.  My question

23     is:  Either from looking at the still on the screen or the photograph

24     that I've handed to you, can you identify the individual in the middle?

25     There's another man wearing a green camouflage uniform immediately to the

Page 26948

 1     left of Mr. Savic.  Can you recognise that individual?

 2        A.   No, I cannot.

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 4             MR. THAYER:  We are done with that.

 5             Now, yesterday, you told us, sir, that your platoon formed up in

 6     front of the Zvornik police station between 6.00 and 7.00, in the

 7     evening.  Can you confirm what you told the Prosecutor's Office in

 8     Sarajevo; namely, that it was your platoon komandir, Cvijan Ristic, who

 9     told you that you were going to Bratunac.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you testified yesterday that you were billeted in a sports

12     hall or a school somewhere in Bratunac.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber,

13     as best as you can remember, where that sports hall or school was

14     located?

15        A.   I'm not certain.  I think it is as one enters Bratunac and moves

16     towards the police station, and then it would be to the right; basically,

17     vis-a-vis the police station on the right-hand side.

18        Q.   Okay.  And is it before the police station as you enter Bratunac,

19     or do you have to pass the police station to get to this location?

20        A.   I'm not sure.  I think it was before, although I'm uncertain,

21     because we were on foot and I saw that we passed by the police station at

22     some point.  We went there to spend the night.

23        Q.   And do you recall where in relation to the Hotel Fontana this

24     location was, sir?

25        A.   I don't know where the Hotel Fontana is.

Page 26949

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic.

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I believe that the answer that the witness gave

 3     to the question of my colleague is not properly recorded.  It's on

 4     page 7:  "... because we were on foot and I saw that we passed by the

 5     police station at some point.  We went there to spend the night."

 6             What I believe, well, the witness said that:  "We were in front

 7     of the police station and then we went on foot to this location."

 8             This was my understanding of what he said, but, of course --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  You can clarify it with the witness.

10             MR. THAYER:

11        Q.   Sir, you heard what my learned friend just said.  Is that your

12     recollection?

13        A.   Yes.  We were in front of the police station and went on foot to

14     spend the night.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, you testified yesterday that it was about 0400 hours

16     on the 12th of July when your company formed up in front of Commander

17     Pantic in Bratunac.  Can you confirm what you told the Prosecutor's

18     office in Sarajevo that there were between 50 and 60 PJP officers present

19     at that time?

20        A.   Some 50 policemen, three platoons; between 50 and 60, that would

21     be right.

22        Q.   And you testified yesterday about receiving your concrete task

23     that morning to scour the terrain and engage in combat if you encountered

24     armed groups; correct?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 26950

 1        Q.   It's fair to say that this was a potentially dangerous operation;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   It was a combat task to search the terrain.

 4        Q.   And you had information that there might be individuals or groups

 5     of individuals who were armed in this location you were going to scour;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that there is a possibility to encounter such a group or

 8     individuals.

 9        Q.   And do you recall telling the Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo

10     that Pantic told you that there was danger?

11        A.   There was danger that could have been posed by a group.  Any such

12     a group or individual would pose a threat to us.

13        Q.   Now, moving on to the gathering at Zuti Most.  If I understand

14     your testimony, Pantic, Stuparevic, and Ristic were all present when you

15     were at Zuti Most; correct?

16        A.   In front of Zuti Most, in the area of Zuti Most; correct.

17        Q.   And to the best of your recollection, approximately what time was

18     this when you arrived?

19        A.   Maybe around 5.00 or 5.30 --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  4.30 or 5.00.

21             MR. THAYER:

22        Q.   Were there any other Serb forces at Zuti Most?  Any other PJP

23     units, special police brigade members, army?

24        A.   There was no one in our environs save for our group.

25        Q.   And was it your understanding, sir, that other than the deminer

Page 26951

 1     and anybody that he was with, that you were and your fellow PJP officers

 2     were the first Serb officers to arrive at Zuti Most and enter Potocari

 3     that day?

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I don't believe this is a fair question.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  It's a compounds question.  First:  "... you were

 8     and your fellow PJP officer were the first officer to arrive at Zuti

 9     Most," that is one question, "and enter Potocari," that's another

10     question.  I think it's a compounds question, and the witness should

11     answer one and then maybe another one.  My colleague should split it in

12     two.

13             MR. THAYER:  No problem, Mr. President, I'd be happy so do that.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think he can answer the question.  It's not

15     compounded at all.

16             So let's answer the question, Witness, please.  Thank you.

17             MR. LAZAREVIC:  And, furthermore, he never said in his testimony

18     that they enter Potocari, in the early morning.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  [Microphone not activated]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  [Microphone not activated]

22             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll just take it one

23     step at a time.

24        Q.   Sir, was it your understanding that you and your fellow PJP

25     officers were the first Serb forces to arrive at Zuti Most that morning?

Page 26952

 1        A.   Well, we got to the area in front of Zuti Most.  I don't know who

 2     controlled the territory.  Well, I assumed that we were in the territory

 3     controlled by our forces.  That's when we got there, but there was nobody

 4     else there, not army.  I didn't see any other troops there at all.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And was it your understanding that you and your fellow PJP

 6     officers would be the first Serb forces to descend towards the UN base in

 7     Potocari as you told us yesterday you did?

 8        A.   Could you please repeat your question, it's not quite clear to

 9     me.

10        Q.   My question is, sir:  Was it your understanding that you and your

11     PJP unit were the first Serb forces to enter the area that you told us

12     yesterday you scoured that day on 12 July, that there was no other Serb

13     forces that entered that area that day or the previous day?

14        A.   It was my understanding that we were the first unit to scour or

15     search that area.  Well, I am not familiar with the area.  I don't know

16     what parts of Potocari there are, upper, lower, "gornji," "donji."

17             It was my understanding that we would be the first units to

18     conduct the search operation around Potocari of Potocari.

19        Q.   And you told us that your platoon commander, Mr. Ristic, was

20     basically next to you during the course of this search.  Do you recall

21     what other Serb units were on your side of the road during this entire

22     period of time that you scoured the terrain?

23        A.   To the best of my recollection, there were no other units there,

24     apart from our company.

25        Q.   How about on the other side of that road that passes in front of

Page 26953

 1     the UN compound between Bratunac and Srebrenica, who was on the other

 2     side of that road scouring the terrain as you were on the right?

 3        A.   I don't know that.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, yesterday, you were asked whether you had any special

 5     orders with regard to the civilians, and you responded, at page 26928,

 6     for my friends:  "If we were to come across civilians, we were not to pay

 7     any attention to them.  We should just proceed and mind our own business,

 8     so to speak."

 9             Then you later said:  "We even had an order from our company

10     commander not to approach them and not to mingle, not to mix with them."

11             Now, sir, in your interview with SIPA --

12             MR. THAYER:  And I've been advised by higher levels that that

13     stands for State Investigation and Protection Agency.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

15             MR. THAYER:

16        Q.   In your interview with SIPA in June of this year, sir, you were

17     asked the following question regarding the task you were given when you

18     arrived at Zuti Most, and this is at page 33 of the interview.

19             "Q.  And were you told what to do if you confronted any armed

20     groups?"

21             Your answer:  "No, nothing was said to us in that respect.  We

22     were just told to search the terrain."

23             "Q.  Were you instructed at the time what to do if you came

24     across any civilians?

25             "A.  No, nothing."

Page 26954

 1              On the next page of the interview, you were asked, sir:

 2             "Q.  What were you expect today do if you detained any persons

 3     who were members of armed groups?

 4             "A.  So in case we encountered such persons, if we ever had those

 5     persons open their fire against us, then we would have probably returned

 6     fire; but in all other cases, we were supposed to report to our

 7     commander, to advise our commander."

 8             Then you were asked this follow-up question right away, it's the

 9     next question:  "And what would be expected of you if you came across

10     civilians?"

11             And your answer, sir, was:  "We did not have any specific

12     instruction in that sense, but I guess we would be also expected to

13     inform our commander."

14             Now, sir, you were very clear yesterday that you received a

15     specific order from your commander basically to just walk on by civilians

16     if you encountered them during this terrain search; but as we just heard,

17     just a couple of months ago in June, you were equally clear that you

18     received no specific instructions regarding civilians.

19             Now, sir, there's nothing in the notes of your proofing with my

20     friends regarding this order, so my question to you is:  Was yesterday

21     the first time you told anybody about this specific order to ignore the

22     civilians?

23        A.   Well, the essence remains the same.  We got a task, it was a

24     combat mission to search the terrain, and I said, these were my words,

25     that we were not interested in civilians.  At that time, I said that I

Page 26955

 1     had not received any specific instructions.  To my mind, that's one in

 2     the same thing.  So we didn't have any tasks to take care of civilians.

 3     It was just a plain and simple search operation.  And as for this order

 4     not to approach civilians, this is what we got from our komandir once we

 5     got down to the tarmac road, if I understand your question correctly.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let me just clarify your answer a little bit, sir, and I

 7     appreciate that.  You just said that "... these were my words, that we

 8     were not interested in civilians."

 9             So I just want to make sure, is it your testimony, then, that

10     prior to conducting the scouring of the terrain, Commander Pantic didn't

11     actually give you any order to leave the civilians alone, that was just

12     your approach to the situation, but you received no specific order at

13     that time, as opposed to when you were down closer to the base to leave

14     the civilians alone?

15        A.   We didn't have any specific orders from the komandir except for

16     the order to carry out the search operation of the terrain.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let me just ask you one follow-up question on the issue of

18     civilians during the search, sir.  I think you'll agree with me,

19     especially in the war in Bosnia, a male of fighting age in civilian

20     clothes might be a civilian, but he might very well be a soldier; right?

21        A.   Yes.  Well, it's an armed civilian.

22        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'm referring to just somebody that you encounter

23     that doesn't have an obvious, say, automatic rifle on his shoulder, but

24     somebody that is just dressed in civilian clothes, just wearing a

25     civilian jacket, for example.  Such a person could be a civilian or he

Page 26956

 1     could be a soldier, you just don't know, is that right, just by looking

 2     at him?

 3        A.   Yes.  But when I talk about civilians, I mean women, children,

 4     people who are infirm.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So I take it, then, if you encountered a male of fighting

 6     age, you would want to take steps to ensure that that male isn't armed in

 7     some fashion, that he doesn't have a pistol under his shirt or a grenade

 8     inside a jacket pocket; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, yesterday, you referred to a house where you positioned

11     yourself while the deming took place.  Do you recall that?

12        A.   In front of the house, not inside the house.

13        Q.   Understood.  And as we saw from the photographs yesterday, there

14     are houses, in some cases scattered and in some cases grouped together,

15     along the way from Zuti Most down to the UN base.  Can you tell the Trial

16     Chamber what were your instructions regarding searching the houses?

17        A.   Well, we didn't even start the search of the terrain from the

18     houses and the road.  That we started in front of the Zuti Most.  As I

19     explained yesterday, we went in a single file up there above the place

20     where we were to start the search operation, and there was this house

21     there.  I don't recall.  It was a lone house, if I'm not mistaken.  It

22     was just before we crossed the minefield.

23        Q.   Okay.  But my question was:  What were your instructions, your

24     orders regarding searching any houses that you encountered during the

25     search of the terrain?

Page 26957

 1        A.   We were told not to go into the houses.

 2        Q.   And, in fact, according to what you told the investigators from

 3     SIPA, you did not enter any of the houses; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Can you explain, I'm a little confused on this issue, sir.

 6     You and your fellow PJP officers are trained police officers, you are

 7     told that this might be a dangerous operation because there were armed

 8     individuals or groups who may be in this area trying to break out, that

 9     you are specifically looking for during this operation.

10             Weren't you concerned that there might be armed people concealed

11     in one of those houses who might open fire against you?

12        A.   Well, it was logical to expect this; but like in all other combat

13     missions, you just pass by any house very carefully using any cover that

14     was available, including the trenches that they had dug between the

15     houses.  As far as the houses are concerned, I personally took the far

16     right side along the edge of the wood where there were just a few houses,

17     very few houses, in fact.

18        Q.   Let me just follow-up on that, sir.  Were you concerned that

19     someone might open fire on you from any of those houses?

20        A.   Well, yes, of course.

21        Q.   Wouldn't it be natural for the order to be for people to search

22     the houses and not be forced to rely on whatever cover might be nearby to

23     make sure that those houses were cleared and pacified?

24        A.   We did not receive any orders, or at least I don't know about it.

25     But when I started the search operation, this was my understanding, that

Page 26958

 1     we were to search the terrain but we were not told that we were supposed

 2     to search the houses, if there were any around Potocari, in that area.

 3        Q.   Sir, are you aware that Danilo Zoljic, Mr. Pantic's --

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I apologise to my colleague.  There is one piece

 5     of witness's answer which was not record.  He said that he didn't even

 6     know there would be any houses in the area.  That's what he said.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 8             MR. THAYER:  I thank my friend.  I'm just going to move along.

 9        Q.   Sir, are you aware that Danilo Zoljic, Mr. Pantic's PJP

10     commander, testified in the Sarajevo trial of Milo Stupar, a special

11     police brigade member of the 2nd Sekovici Detachment?

12        A.   No, I don't know that.

13        Q.   Okay.  Well, he was asked in that trial on 15 September 2006,

14     this is at page 28, regarding the morning of 12 July at Zuti Most, and I

15     quote the question:  "Did you receive some tasks from Ljubisa

16     Borovcanin?"

17             And Mr. Zoljic answered:  "I asked Ljubisa what tasks were to be

18     executed by the 1st Company of the special police unit."

19             MR. THAYER:  I think my friends will agree that that's a

20     reference to the PJP and not the Special Police Brigade.

21        Q.   And Mr. Zoljic continued his answer:  "Ljubisa Borovcanin said to

22     all of us that the 1st Company and the 2nd Detachment were to search

23     houses from Zuti Most towards Srebrenica, so a part of the Potocari

24     settlement located on the right side of the road looking from the

25     direction of Zuti Most towards Srebrenica.  After the search of these

Page 26959

 1     houses is completed above the settlement, houses on the slope, so on the

 2     rising ground, hill."

 3             Now, he is try describing the area where you testified you

 4     scoured the terrain, isn't he, the right-hand side, on an elevation?

 5        A.    Yes.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Just for the record and to make sure

 7     that we are in agreement, this Ljubisa Borovcanin is not the accused, you

 8     agree on it, don't you; or are you referring to or is he referring to the

 9     accused?

10             MR. THAYER:  He is refer together the accused, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  But the accused is not Ljubisa, he is

12     Ljubomir.

13             MR. THAYER:  Correct.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is why I'm asking the question.

15             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President, he is referring.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Due agree with this, Mr. Lazarevic, or not?

17             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honour, I do agree.  Also, I don't think

18     there is a basis for this question.  I mean, I believe my colleague

19     should have asked first whether he saw Mr. Zoljic, whether he can comment

20     on this what Mr. Zoljic is talking about.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  But the question was a legitimate one because it

22     follows the previous answer of the witness; namely, that they had not

23     received any instructions regarding searching houses, and his associate,

24     or mate at the time, apparently testified differently in other

25     proceedings.

Page 26960

 1             So let's proceed --

 2             MR. THAYER:  And Mr. President --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- and if you could stick to what is relevant to

 4     the case and bring your cross-examination to the end, please.

 5             MR. THAYER:  I will, Mr. President.  I just note for the record

 6     that there are references signatures, typed signatures, from Mr.

 7      Borovcanin in which he refer toss himself as Ljubisa.  His formal name

 8     is Ljubomir, but there are references to Ljubisa as well.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I just said it for the record because I didn't want

10     later on to find ourselves in a position where we didn't or we wouldn't

11     know who the witness was referring to or who are you referring to.

12             So let's proceed.

13             MR. THAYER:

14        Q.   Now, sir, at page 32 of that transcript, Mr. Zoljic was asked:

15     "Were you receiving reports regarding the search of houses from commander

16     or his deputy?"

17             And Mr. Zoljic answered:  "Since I was on the road somewhere in

18     the middle looking from Zuti Most, I did not insist on details.  When the

19     search has been completed, the commanding officer informed me by radio

20     that there were neither civilians nor men fit for military service

21     present in those houses."

22             Then he continues that when the search was completed, Pantic

23     informed him by radio of that fact.

24             Now, sir, I put it to you that the PJP, in fact, did search

25     houses that morning towards Potocari.  Is it still your testimony that no

Page 26961

 1     one searched any houses?

 2        A.   I was to the far right and I couldn't see what the others were

 3     doing; but if you pass by the house, that does not mean that you search

 4     the house.  I did not got into any of the houses.  You have house

 5     searches that you do normally once you have a search warrant.  I did not

 6     enter a single house and the guys around me did not either.

 7        Q.   Now, do you recall whether there were any dogs that were being

 8     used by any of the forces during this scouring?

 9        A.   Well, since in our company we did not have people trained to

10     handle dogs, apart from myself and my colleague, but he was not there,

11     the dogs were not used.  They were not present there.  I'm sure about

12     that.

13        Q.   Okay.  I want to share with you a couple of accounts from Dutch

14     officers that were observing the events that morning of the 12th of July.

15             MR. THAYER:  The first is from 65 ter 3800, an OTP witness

16     statement of a Dutch officer named Rene van Kuijen, K-u-i-j-e-n.  This is

17     at page 3 of the English and B/C/S.

18        Q.   I'm just going to read it to you, sir, to save some time.  He

19     said:  "In the morning of the 12 July, I was on duty inside the compound

20     at the designated locations for monitoring everything in and outside the

21     compound coming within the site.  I started my duty between 0600 and 0700

22     hours, and I was looking through the binoculars.  I saw about 100 Serb

23     soldiers in the northerly direction of the enclave.  Some of them had

24     German Shepherd dogs.  Many Muslim houses were located on the

25     northwesterly side of the road on the hills.  I saw that Serb soldiers

Page 26962

 1     were systematically cleansing those houses.  The soldiers would hurl a

 2     grenade inside the house, and I had the impression that they were killing

 3     the inmates of those houses without any warning.  I saw that process

 4     having been repeated by them many times.  I could not hear any shrieks or

 5     shouting from that direction as I was standing at some distance.  I heard

 6     from my superiors that the soldiers with the dogs were the Drina Brigade

 7     and stationed somewhere in Bratunac."

 8             Before I put my question to you, sir, I just want to read another

 9     portion of an UN DutchBat officer's OTP witness statement.

10             MR. THAYER:  That's 65 ter 3797.  It's a man named Jan Spek

11     [phoen] Schneider.

12        Q.   He said at page 2, and we only have an English version of this:

13     "In the morning of 12 July, I was up quite early.  The VRS soldiers

14     started coming at about 10.00.  I saw them from the compounds.  First, I

15     saw the group of such soldiers on the hills in northwesterly direction.

16     They were dressed in green camouflage uniforms, and some of them had

17     dogs.  They were systematically cleansing the house located there.  They

18     would send the dog inside a house or, alternatively, throw a grenades in

19     the house.  I saw the inmates coming out of the house.  I heard continue

20     use shooting from that direction.  I could not clearly see anything, but

21     my impression was that the soldiers had been killing the inmates of those

22     houses.  I had this impression for another reason that I did not see any

23     of those Muslims coming to the compound to take refuge with the others.

24     The house were located in a northwesterly direction and of distance of

25     about 300 to 500 metres from the compound."

Page 26963

 1             Now, again, sir, this sounds like the area that you were

 2     scouring.  Is it your testimony that you saw none of the activities

 3     described by these two DutchBat officers during the entire time that you

 4     were participating in this scouring operation?

 5        A.   Well, that absolutely does not correspond to our unit.  It has

 6     nothing to do, whatsoever, with this.

 7        Q.   Did you ever become aware, sir, that any other unit performed any

 8     of those acts that morning?

 9        A.   No.  I don't know about that, and I never heard about that

10     subsequently either.

11        Q.   Okay.  I want to turn your attention in the few minutes I have

12     left --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Thayer, you referred to the killing of people

14     who were inside the houses.  Are those part of the indictment?

15             MR. THAYER:  Those have not been charged, Your Honour, as

16     opportunistic killings.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             MR. THAYER:

19        Q.   Now, I want to turn your attention, sir, to your testimony

20     yesterday that Commander Pantic told you that there was a UN checkpoint;

21     and in your words, that you should pay special attention to it, be

22     mindful of it, avoid any possible conflicts with the officers, any sort

23     of communication.  You specified, at 26938, that you had an order from

24     your company commander not to approach UNPROFOR at any cost, not to

25     engage in any combat, not to open fire in their direction, anything.

Page 26964

 1             Sir, did you ever hear that any PJP officers or special police

 2     brigade members went to the UN checkpoint near Yellow Bridge where the

 3     Dutch peacekeepers were that morning?

 4        A.   I don't know that.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I want to share with you, then, one final OTP witness

 6     statement from a Dutch officer, Roger Patelski.

 7             MR. THAYER:  This is 65 ter 3798.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

 9             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps the witness

10     could take off the headphones because I would like to address an issue.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's make sure if he understands English or not.

12             Do you understand English at all?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Please remove your headphones.

15             Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

16             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my colleague is

17     using statements that were shown to him by my colleague.  If the purpose

18     is to check his credibility, that's fine.  But there are parts of those

19     statements made by people who did not testify here, and the Defence

20     cannot cross-examine them, yet this is now on the record.  I don't know

21     how the Trial Chamber will be able to give proper weight to those parts

22     of the statements perhaps.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's not evidence, so put your mind at rest that

24     that is not where we are heading, so don't worry about it.

25             But I understand, Mr. Thayer, what you are testing is the

Page 26965

 1     witness's credibility, first and foremost.

 2             MR. THAYER:  I am, Mr. President, as we've said on numerous

 3     occasions, we offer our evidence at the end of the day for any purpose

 4     for which the Trial Chamber deems appropriate, but this is all about

 5     credibility, as I've said before, in other circumstances.  This is about

 6     credibility.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  You can't have the cake and eat it, too.

 8             Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

 9             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I just wanted to say.  They closed their case,

10     Your Honour.  This is something really unfair towards --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let us manage the whole matter.  I mean, we have

12     more than once explained to you what our position is, and we don't need

13     to repeat it.

14             Yes, let's move.

15             MR. THAYER:

16        Q.   Sir, I want to read to you a portion of this witness statement,

17     and, unfortunately, we don't have a translation.  So, bear with me, it's

18     going to take just a little bit of time.

19             At page 3 of the interview, this Dutch officer said:  "I think it

20     was 11 July when I heard on the radio that the Serbian troops were

21     advancing from the south, and later they took on the enclave.  The next

22     day the troops around us also began to move in the direction of Potocari.

23     Jovo called our OP and informed that the Serbian troops were beginning to

24     move, and if we did not resist, we would not be harmed.  I received that

25     message, and as soon as I hung up, I saw the tanks moving from the

Page 26966

 1     surrounding of the Serbian command post towards the main asphalt road.

 2     It was around 1000 to 1100 hours in the morning of the next day of the

 3     fall of the enclave.  The soldiers also moved along the side of the road.

 4             "The first troops appeared to be well trained army unit.  They

 5     were dressed in cam collage uniforms and heavily armed.  They were in

 6     hundreds.  A group of 15 to 20 soldiers came to our OP.  A young Serb

 7     soldier commanded the group.  He had dark short hair, about 1.9 metres

 8     tall, and had reddish skin.  They were all dressed in camouflage

 9     uniforms.  The commander spoke good English.  They seized our helmets,

10     flak jackets and arms, and disconnected our contact with the OPs room,

11     and put us in the corner.  They seized our APC and asked the driver to

12     explain its operation.

13             "Sometime later, I managed to go to the tower of the OP.  I saw

14     that the few other groups of the Serb soldiers went towards the Muslim

15     houses located on both sides of the roads.  Such groups were dressed in

16     black uniforms and had dogs with them.  The black uniform was comprised

17     of an overall and a black leather waist belt but no caps.  They carried

18     digital walkie-talkie sets.

19             "They would go near the house and throw a grenade into it.  After

20     that, they would enter the house with dogs which, would be followed by

21     shooting and screams.  I knew that a number of Muslim people were still

22     living in those houses.  I had the impression that the people had been

23     killed in the houses.  I did not see anyone coming out of those houses.

24     After that, the Serb soldiers would come out of the house and set it on

25     fire.  They would then move to the next house.

Page 26967

 1             "Another group of Serb soldiers proceeding in the direction of

 2     Potocari were dressed in blue camouflage uniforms.  One such soldier was

 3     also present at our OP and had come with squad and captured our OP.

 4     Somebody asked him why he was wearing blue camouflage uniform and what

 5     was the difference between the normal camouflage and the blue.  He

 6     replied that the soldiers dressed in blue camouflage uniform were a

 7     'special police unit.'  The soldiers in black overalls were a kind of

 8     anti-terrorist unit.

 9             "Another group, which walked passed the OP after the regular

10     one's, were Rambo-type.  They were dressed in a ninety-six tour of

11     civilian and military gear and well armed with grenades, AK-47 and

12     knives.

13             "We were detained at the OP until 2100 hours that day.  We were

14     guarded all the time."

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we have the question, Mr. Thayer, please.

16             MR. THAYER:  I had to read that whole section, Your Honour,

17     because it's bounded on both sides by what happened at the OP and the

18     events in between.

19        Q.   Now, sir, you heard what this DutchBat officer told the OP about

20     Serb soldiers taking over that observation point.  I ask you again:  Did

21     you ever hear any information that PJP officers, special police brigade,

22     or any Serb forces took over that Dutch checkpoint near Zuti Most that

23     morning?

24        A.   I am completely not familiar with that.

25        Q.   Now, taking you down closer to the UN base, you testified that

Page 26968

 1     when you descended towards it, you ended up about 150 to 200 metres, and

 2     that you could see the large group of refugees well from your position.

 3     Do you recall how far you were from the entrance to the actual compound,

 4     to the Dutch base compound?

 5        A.   I couldn't see it full well, but I could see a group there.  I

 6     was some 200 metres or 150 metres to the left from the base.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So, just to be clear, you could see the actual entrance to

 8     the compound; is that what you are telling the Trial Chamber?

 9        A.   I could see those gathered there.  I don't remember the very

10     entrance, but we were close to the base and I could see the people

11     inside.  I could see those assembled.

12        Q.   Now, in your interview in Sarajevo, you said that Commander

13     Pantic wanted to keep you together as a group and not to disperse.  Do

14     you recall that?

15        A.   I do.

16        Q.   And, again, as you testified yesterday, you even had this order,

17     you said, not to approach the civilians, and you affirm that this

18     morning, that that is what the actual order regarding civilians was?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Did you see any Muslim civilians boarding buses to take them

21     away, sir?

22        A.   I saw the group of people, but I did not see any buses.  The

23     people were still arriving.

24        Q.   Did you see any Muslim --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

Page 26969

 1             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I apologise.  The answer was improperly recorded.

 2     Here, we have on page 27, lines 7 to 8:  "I saw the group of people.  But

 3     I did not see any buses."  No, that's not what the witness said.  Maybe

 4     he can repeat the answer.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Could you repeat the answer, please,

 6     because we've got a problem with the transcript.  What did you see?  Did

 7     you see the people?  Did you see the Muslim civilians boarding buses to

 8     be taken away?  What is your answer to that question?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw the people gathered in front

10     of it, but I did not see any boarding of the buses.

11             MR. THAYER:

12        Q.   And, sir, did you see any Muslim males being separated from their

13     families while you were at your position?

14        A.   No, I could not see that.

15        Q.   And you testified yesterday that, and I quote:  "We encountered a

16     few empty buses headed towards Srebrenica, towards the base."  That was

17     at 26929.

18             Just a quick follow-up on that, sir.  Can you tell us where were

19     you when you saw these buses?

20        A.   At the moment when we gathered and boarded our bus, we

21     encountered a couple of buses between Potocari and the base in Bratunac.

22        Q.   And did you know why they were heading towards the base, sir?

23        A.   I didn't know it at the time.

24        Q.   And during this period of time before you boarded the buses, when

25     you were standing in front of the base with your fellow PJP officers and

Page 26970

 1     had this clear view of this massive group of refugees, did you have any

 2     discussions with your fellow PJP officers about what was going to happen

 3     to them?

 4        A.   I don't recall that.

 5        Q.   Do you know Cvijan Vucinovic, sir?  In 1995, he was a police

 6     officer from Milici and also a 1st Company Zvornik PJP officer.  Cvijan

 7     Vucinovic.  Does that name ring any bells with you?

 8        A.   No, it does not.

 9        Q.   Well, he told the Sarajevo Prosecutor's Office, and this is at

10     page 8 of his interview, and I quote:  "On the day when I was in

11     Potocari, shortly before our return to Bratunac, I saw buses arriving in

12     Potocari.  I knew the buses arrived there to take the Muslim population

13     in the direction of Kladanj.  At the time, I thought that was the safest

14     solution for them to go to their territory because it was war."

15             He also added, and I quote:  "One feels the safest with his own

16     people," and that he saw Serbian soldiers directing buses at the parking

17     place, and he also saw people getting in one of those buses.

18             Now, it's clear that he knew why those buses were there.  Are you

19     sure, sir, that you didn't here anything about the transportation of

20     those civilians while you were there, and that you didn't see -- well,

21     I'll take it one question at a time, please.

22        A.   Not at that time certainly.

23        Q.   Okay.  Just a couple more questions, sir, for you.  I want to

24     turn your attention to Sandici.  When you got to Sandici, your platoon

25     commander and the deputy company commander, Mr. Stuparevic, are there

Page 26971

 1     with you; correct?

 2        A.   Stuparevic was right next to me until the moment I was wounded.

 3        Q.   And the -- your platoon commander was there as well; can you just

 4     confirm that?

 5        A.   The whole unit was there, including the platoon commander.

 6        Q.   And you deployed anywhere from ten to 30 metres from each other;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   It depended on the layout.  There could have been five or ten

 9     metres between us, 15 at the most.

10        Q.   Now, there's no dispute, sir, that you were wounded on that night

11     between the 12th and the 13th of July.  Can you just confirm what you

12     told the SIPA investigators in your interview, and that is that there was

13     moonlight on that night between the 12th and 13th?

14        A.   As I said, when asked about the source of light, since it was

15     dark, it is possible that it was only moonlight.  But that was the

16     source.

17        Q.   Okay.  My question is, sir:  As you sit here today, can you

18     confirm what you told the SIPA investigators that your recollection is

19     that there was moonlight that night?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  He already said that it's possible, but I don't

21     think you can get more than that, Mr. Thayer.

22             Let's conclude, please.

23             MR. THAYER:  Well, that was my last question, Mr. President.  I

24     wanted to see if he could confirm what he said.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, given that it was dark,

Page 26972

 1     there is such a possibility that it was moonlight.  I can't recall

 2     exactly.

 3             MR. THAYER:

 4        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 6             Is there re-examination, Mr. Lazarevic?

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Just very, very limited number of questions.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's proceed.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

10        Q.   Mr. Zaric, we are nearing the end of your testimony.  I would

11     just like to clarify a few of your answers given to some of the questions

12     posed by Mr. Thayer during cross-examination.

13             My first question is this:  Did your unit at all have any hand

14     grenades when you went in the field and took part in the search of the

15     terrain to the right of Zuti Most?

16        A.   We had no infantry weapons except for our rifles.

17        Q.   Did you have any other equipment?  I don't mean only hand

18     grenades but, say, mortars or anything of that nature.  Did your unit

19     have anything like that at its disposal?

20        A.   No, we had none.

21        Q.   During his examination, Mr. Thayer kept referring to the area

22     from Zuti Most.  I dare say it was his suggestion.  But as you testified

23     and as far as I can understand, did you set out from an area in front of

24     Zuti Most, or from Zuti Most itself?

25        A.   [No interpretation]

Page 26973

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  The interpreters would like the

 3     witness to repeat his answer.

 4             Do you remember the question?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where we started from.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, exactly.  Did you set out from an area in

 7     front of Zuti Most or from Zuti Most itself?  What was your answer?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In front of Zuti Most.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

10             Thank you, interpreters for drawing our attention.

11             Mr. Lazarevic.

12             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Sir, during cross-examination, Mr. Thayer read out certain

14     portions of some DutchBat soldier's statements, and I have a few

15     questions about that.  He said that the first group to appear was a group

16     of 15 to 20 people who arrived at the DutchBat observation post.  A young

17     Serb soldier commanded the group, he had dark hair, around 185

18     centimetres in height, a bit red in the face, and spoke good English.  I

19     repeated this description.

20             Bearing that in mind, could it be ascribed to any member of the

21     PJP company Zvornik, in particular to any of the commanders?

22        A.   No, absolutely not.

23        Q.   The next thing that Mr. Thayer read out was that there was a

24     group wearing black uniforms that had dogs with them.  I won't go back to

25     the issue.  You already said that you did not have any dogs.

Page 26974

 1             But as for the 1st PJP Zvornik Company, did you ever have black

 2     uniforms?

 3        A.   No, absolutely not.

 4        Q.   I want to ask you about the last category of soldiers Mr. Thayer

 5     referred to in his quotation.  The third group which allegedly appeared

 6     wore blue camouflage uniforms.  During your testimony, you talked about

 7     the fact that the police at the time -- when conducting regular duties

 8     wore blue camouflage uniforms.

 9             You were in the field at that moment.  What uniform did you wear

10     at that time?

11        A.   Green camouflage uniform with police insignia.

12        Q.   Then it says that the people in blue camouflage uniforms were

13     allegedly [In English] "a special police unit."

14             [Interpretation] To the best of your recollection, did the

15     special police ever wear blue camouflage uniforms during combat?

16        A.   I'm not familiar with that.

17        Q.   Let us look at the fourth group.  It says Rambo-types which wore

18     a mix of civilian and military clothes, had good weapons, and sported

19     knives and hand grenades.  Did any of the members of the 1st PJP Company

20     wear civilian clothes together with their uniforms, or were you all

21     uniform in that?

22        A.   The whole unit wore green camouflage uniforms.

23        Q.   I suppose it doesn't mean much to you when I say "Observation

24     Post Papa," but we could hear that it was the observation post that was

25     between Zuti Most and Potocari.

Page 26975

 1             Witness Franken, who was one of the commanders of DutchBat and

 2     who testified before this Tribunal on the 17th of October 2006 as a

 3     Prosecution witness, he said the following, and I'll quote.  It is page

 4     2589 of the transcript in this case:  [In English ] "... please, and tell

 5     us, how long did the member of the Dutch battalion stay in the Papa

 6     observation point near the Yellow Bridge?

 7             "A.  I'm just thinking.  Papa was withdrawn on the 13th or 14th,

 8     I don't know exactly, yes.

 9             "Q.  And this withdrawal from the Papa observation point, did it

10     follow your order, or did they do that on their own will?

11             "A.  No, a withdrawal is always done on order."

12             Is this precisely what you said when you said that you carried

13     out -- you did not carry out any attacks against the Papa observation

14     post?

15        A.   That is right.

16        Q.   There was one other thing I wanted to quote.  It is a

17     Prosecutor's witness testimony of the 11th of January 2008, page 19459.

18     Witness Joseph Kingori.

19             Page 19459 lines 9 to 14:  [In English] "Up until which point in

20     time did DutchBat people remain there and when did they withdraw from

21     their OP to the one near the Yellow Bridge?"

22             And the answer was:  "Your Honour, I think that was the last OP

23     to be for the DutchBat to evacuate."

24             [Interpretation] What I have just read, does this correspond with

25     what you could see at the time?

Page 26976

 1        A.   I did not understand that.

 2        Q.   Do you know when they were withdrawn?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

 6             Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just for clarification of the record,

 8     based on the question my friend asked, when we speak about being in front

 9     of Yellow Bridge, can we just -- is it on the Srebrenica side or the

10     Bratunac side, just so the record is clear about when we speak in front

11     of it?

12             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I think it's very clear he drew the --

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think so, too.

14             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... on that photograph

15     that we showed to you where they stood.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't think we need any further information.  Do

17     you have any questions?  That brings us to the end of your testimony,

18     sir.  I'm very grateful for you to have accepted to come over as a

19     witness for the Defence of Mr. Borovcanin.  On behalf of the Trial

20     Chamber, I wish you a safe a journey back home.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, please have a chat, because I would like you

24     to finish the next witness today.  So you need to organise yourselves,

25     even if it means that we have to do the exhibits process pertaining to

Page 26977

 1     the previous witness next time we meet.  But we need to finish the next

 2     witness today.  Thank you.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, have you insisted on having fresh air,

 7     Mr. Josse?

 8             MR. JOSSE:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I was absolutely baffled, but

 9     Mr. Lazarevic explained the issue.  I enjoy spending my breaks in there,

10     General Gvero even more so.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  We have been informed that there is agreement

12     between you as regards the exhibits of the this last witness.

13             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, for Mr. Bajagic and also for

14     Mr. Zaric, so we can deal with this in a couple of minutes.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  That applies also to the Bajagic documents,

16     exhibits?  All right.  Do we admit them all in other words, and MFI those

17     which are pending translation?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, that's correct Mr. President, both Defence

19     and Prosecution lists.  You have our list.  We have agreement that both

20     lists go in.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So that's how it will be.  Thank you.

22             All right.  This is the whole list of the Borovcanin exhibits.

23     They are all admitted with the caveat that I explained.  These are the

24     Prosecution ones, just four.  They are also all admitted.

25             Now we come to the last witness.  The lists have been circulated

Page 26978

 1     as well.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we have no objections to any of the

 3     documents on the Borovcanin list, and we have no exhibits for that last

 4     witness.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So they are all admitted, and those

 6     which have not yet been translated will be MFI'd as I stated earlier.

 7             All right.

 8             Good morning to you, Mr. Filipovic.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are most welcome to this Tribunal.  You've been

11     summoned as a Defence witness of the Borovcanin Defence team.  Before you

12     give testimony, you need to make a solemn declaration that you will be

13     testifying the truth.  The text is being handed to you now, please read

14     it out aloud, that will be your solemn commitment with us.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please make yourself comfortable.  Mr. Lazarevic

18     will ask you some questions, and then there will be some

19     cross-examination, and hopefully you can go home.

20             Mr. Lazarevic.

21             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           WITNESS:  NENAD FILIPOVIC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr.  Filipovic.

Page 26979

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   We've met before, but just for the record, let me state my name.

 3     I'm Aleksandar Lazarevic, and together with the my colleagues, I

 4     represent the Defence of Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin before this Tribunal.

 5             Since this is the first time that you are testifying here, I'm

 6     asking you to wait for me to complete my question and then make a pause

 7     before you start answering, so that everything is record properly in the

 8     transcript.

 9             Could you please state your full name for the record?

10        A.   My name is Nenad Filipovic.

11        Q.   Could you please tell me when and where you were born?

12        A.   I was born on the 9th of February 1966, in the village Zolja,

13     Kalesija municipality.

14        Q.   Could you please tell me where you completed your primary

15     education, and what are the schools did you attend?

16        A.   I completed four grades in the place where I lived; and the

17     remaining four grades in primary school and the high school, I completed

18     in Kalesija.

19        Q.   Could you please tell me, before the war started in Bosnia, where

20     did you live?

21        A.   I lived in Zolja, the place where I was born.

22        Q.   What were you doing?

23        A.   Well, I was employed, and later on, I went to Pula in Croatia.

24        Q.   Could you please tell me, when the war started in Bosnia, did you

25     leave your place, the place where you lived?

Page 26980

 1        A.   Yes, I did, on the 25th of May 1992.

 2        Q.   What was the reason?

 3        A.   The reason was the fact that the Muslim forces attacked my

 4     village and we all had to leave.

 5        Q.   Could you please tell me where did you go from Zolja?

 6        A.   I first moved to the Osmaci municipality, and from there to the

 7     Zvornik municipality.

 8        Q.   Could you tell me, could you be more specific, when was it that

 9     you moved to the Zvornik municipality?

10        A.   I moved to the Zvornik municipality on the 12th of June 1992.

11        Q.   After you came to Zvornik, were you assigned to the reserve force

12     of the police in the public security centre in Zvornik; and if so, could

13     you please tell me when it was?

14        A.   Well, it did not happen immediately.  I was first in the army;

15     and then in 1993, I joined the reserve force of the police, of the

16     Zvornik police station.

17        Q.   Fine.  Just one more question in this vein:  Do you work now; and

18     if yes, can you please tell me where?  What kind of work do you do?

19        A.   I work in the Zvornik police station; I'm a police officer.

20        Q.   Could we now move to 1995.  Could you tell me, what duties did

21     you have in July 1995?

22        A.   I was a reserve police officer in the Zvornik police station.

23        Q.   Please, tell me, in the discharge of the normal police duties,

24     what uniforms were you issued?

25        A.   Well, we wore blue camouflage uniforms.

Page 26981

 1        Q.   And as you went about the normal police business, did you also

 2     carry weapons; and if so, could you please tell us what kind of weapons

 3     did you carry?

 4        A.   I carried a pistol, 762.  It was an official pistol we were all

 5     issued.

 6        Q.   Fine.  Could we now talk about the police station in Zvornik.

 7     Could you please tell me, as you went about your police business, who was

 8     your superior?  How did the chain of command look?

 9        A.   The -- Goran Delic was the commander of the police station; the

10     chief of the police department was Luka Bogdanovic; and Dragomir Vasic

11     was the chief of the centre.

12        Q.   Very well.  Just one more question, as you went about police

13     business, did you have an official ID card of any sort?

14        A.   Yes.  I did have a badge and an official ID card.

15        Q.   Fine.  Apart from the normal day-to-day police business, you were

16     also a member of the PJP, were you not?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Could you please tell me, what company of the PJP did you belong

19     to?

20        A.   I was in the 1st PJP Company of the public security centre in

21     Zvornik.

22        Q.   Fine.  And now could you tell me, to the best of your

23     recollection, how many companies there were, I mean the PJP companies in

24     the Zvornik public security centre?

25        A.   I think there were six.

Page 26982

 1        Q.   You did indicate that you were in the 1st Company.  Could you

 2     please tell me something about the structure, it's internal structure,

 3     how many elements that were?

 4        A.   It had three platoons.

 5        Q.   Fine.  Just a few questions about the PJP units.  The 1st Company

 6     of the PJP, did it include only police officers from the Zvornik police

 7     station or from other police stations, too, or public security stations

 8     as they were called?

 9        A.   Personnel from other police stations:  The Vlasenici, Milici,

10     Bratunac, Sekovici, Skelani police stations, and also the Zvornik police

11     station.

12        Q.   But all those police stations or public security centre that is

13     we were talking about, did that belong to a centre in territorial terms?

14        A.   To the public security centre in Zvornik.

15        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

18        Q.   I apologise.  My microphone was off, so you couldn't hear me.

19             When you were in the PJP and when your 1st Company was engaged in

20     combat, could you please tell me, what kind of uniform you wore then as

21     opposed to the uniform that you wore as you went about your day-to-day

22     police business?

23        A.   We wore grey camouflage uniform or green.

24        Q.   For the record to be clear, it says grey and then green.  It's

25     one and the same, isn't it?

Page 26983

 1        A.   Yes, it's a grey camouflage uniform.

 2        Q.   And could you please tell, me when you were engaged in combat,

 3     did you carry weapons, other weapons in comparison to the weapons that

 4     you had as you went about your day-to-day business?

 5        A.   I'm sorry.  I didn't understand you.

 6        Q.   When you went into combat, what kind of weapons did you carry?

 7        A.   We had automatic weapons.

 8        Q.   Did you have those pistols that you told us you were issued, the

 9     pistols that you carried when you went about your day-to-day business?

10        A.   No, we did not.

11        Q.   Could you please tell me whether the weapons that you used or

12     that you carried when you took part in PJP operations, were those weapons

13     the same for all of your members or did some people perhaps have some

14     heavier weapons?

15        A.   No.  We all had automatic weapons, nothing more than that.

16        Q.   When you were in the PJP units participating in operations, did

17     you have any communications equipment, radios, things like that?

18        A.   Yes.  We did have Motorolas.  That's what we called them.

19        Q.   Did everybody is have Motorolas?

20        A.   No, just the company commander, his deputy, and the platoon

21     commanders, komandiri.

22        Q.   Could you please tell me whether the 1st PJP Company had a

23     medical team of doctors and other medical personnel who would intervene

24     if anything happened to anyone in the course of combat operations?

25        A.   No, nothing of the sort.

Page 26984

 1        Q.   Please tell me whether the 1st Company perhaps had a logistics

 2     platoon that would take care of providing supplies to the company

 3     personnel while they were in combat; food, ammunition, and other

 4     materiel?

 5        A.   No, it had no such platoon.

 6        Q.   So when you as the 1st Company went out and took part in combat

 7     operations, who provided you with food?  Who supplied you with ammunition

 8     and the other items that you needed in order to continue fighting?

 9        A.   It was the army.

10        Q.   Did the 1st PJP Company have its own mortar squad or any kind of

11     artillery unit?

12        A.   No, it did not.

13        Q.   And did any members of the 1st PJP Company have mortars?  Were

14     they issued mortars or anything of that kind?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Could you please tell me, as you went on combat missions into the

17     field, what kind of vehicles did you have?

18        A.   We went there by bus.

19        Q.   Did the 1st Company have any kind of armoured vehicles to use

20     when it went into combat?

21        A.   No, nothing of the sort.

22        Q.   And, finally, when you went into combat with the 1st PJP Company,

23     did you use the white and blue vehicles with lights, of the kind that the

24     police normally uses?

25        A.   No.

Page 26985

 1        Q.   Mr. Filipovic, did you, as a member of the 1st Company of the PJP

 2     of the Zvornik Security Services Centre, take part in combat even before

 3     July 1995?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And when you were about to go into combat, could you please tell

 6     us, what kind of notice did you receive?  Let's say, one day you were out

 7     and about doing your normal police job and how did it happen, then?  How

 8     were you notified that you were supposed to go out and carry out

 9     operations as part of the PJP?

10        A.   Well, if I was at home, I would get a phone call.  If I was on

11     duty, then Motorolas were used, the ones that we had.

12        Q.   Fine.  Now I would like to move on to 1995 and the events that

13     preceded the Srebrenica events.  In 1995, before the Srebrenica events,

14     we know that they happened in July 1995, were you involved in any combat

15     as the member of the 1st PJP?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you please tell me, let us be quite specific, in June 1995,

18     do you recall where was it that the 1st PJP Company participated in

19     operations in combat?

20        A.   I think it was in mid-June.  We were at the Sarajevo Romanija

21     front in Semizovac.

22        Q.   Fine.  Now I would like us to look at a document.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  It is in e-court and the number is 5D1321.

24        Q.   If it's easier for you, perhaps it would be a good idea to

25     provide with you a hard copy of this document, so that you can have it in

Page 26986

 1     front of you?

 2        A.   Yes, that would be fine.

 3        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Mic is off.

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   The document is now in front of us.  Please have a look at it,

 7     and I will have a few questions for you.  First of all, it is a dispatch,

 8     sent by the chief of the Zvornik CJB on the 26th of June 1995, to the MUP

 9     RS Bijeljina, to the public and state security departments, to the police

10     forces staff, to the SJB command, and all CJBs.

11             You have seen this document during your proofing; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Have a look at the third paragraph of the dispatch beginning with

14     the words, "Given that the VRS forces could not retain the lost

15     territory ..."

16             It is the third paragraph.  As you can see, it says that the SBP

17     Doboj Detachment and the 1st PJP Company of the Zvornik PJP have been

18     implementing a task in the area of Semizovac for ten days already.  They

19     were assigned to carry out a counterattack to regain the lost elevation

20     points and push the enemy back.  It say that is there was an attack on

21     the 21st of June referred to in the first paragraph.  Were you in the

22     area of Semizovac, as would seem based on this dispatch?

23        A.   Yes, I was.

24        Q.   Let us go to the next paragraph, then, where the following thing

25     is explained:  The participation of the MUP units is explained, and it

Page 26987

 1     says that, during the combat, the 1st Company, 1st platoon of the PJP was

 2     wounded, Marinko Eric, and he was transferred to the VMA in Belgrade.

 3             To the best of your recollection, did this indeed happen?  Was

 4     Marinko Eric wounded on that occasion?

 5        A.   That's correct.  He was wounded on that occasion.

 6        Q.   One last question concerning the document.  In the last

 7     paragraph, it says:  "The 3rd Company is at the lines reached given that

 8     the VRS no longer has sufficient forces to retain those locations, while

 9     the 1st Company is ready in Osmaci."

10             Were you in Osmaci on the 21st of June, 1995, as specified here?

11        A.   Yes, I was.

12        Q.   Can you explain to us what it is that the company was on standby?

13        A.   In case there was a renewed attack by the Muslim, we were

14     supposed to intervene quickly and to move to the location of the attack.

15        Q.   To the best of your recollection, and I won't press you for any

16     exact dates, until what time did the 1st Company remain in the area of

17     Osmaci?

18        A.   It remained there for a few days.  I cannot recall exactly how

19     many.

20        Q.   We are done with the document, and I would like to move to the

21     next one.  You also had occasion to see that during your proofing.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  It is 4D324.

23        Q.   It is very easy to read the document, and I would kindly ask you

24     to have a look at it on the screen and tell us what it is.

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Could we please zoom in the B/C/S version.

Page 26988

 1        Q.   This is an order sent by the chief of the police department of

 2     the CJB Zvornik, Luka Bogdanovic, of the 7th of July 1995; sent to the

 3     public security station in Bratunac, Milici, Vlasenici, Sekovici, and the

 4     police station in Zvornik, the police station for traffic safety in

 5     Zvornik, and the police station in Skelani.

 6             Do you see the document in front of you?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   These PSs and SJBs referred to in the document, were they all

 9     part of the CJB of Zvornik?

10        A.   Yes, they are.  They were.

11        Q.   Are all these SJBs and PSs supposed to provide their members for

12     the 1st PJP Zvornik Company?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   As of the 7th of July 1995, were the members of the PJP on

15     standby in their respective police stations according to your

16     recollection?  I know you can't speak for the others, but you can say

17     something for yourself and your colleagues in Zvornik.

18        A.   Yes.  We were on standby in Zvornik.

19        Q.   What did that include or entail?

20        A.   As I said, we were supposed to intervene quickly if necessary to

21     assist.

22        Q.   More or less, it is the same as we saw from the previous document

23     when you were on standby in Osmaci; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We will no longer require the document.  Let us move

Page 26989

 1     now to the events after the 10th of July 1995.

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Let's first have a look at a document which bears

 3     the date the 10th of July 1995.  It is an order of the staff commander

 4     number 64/95.  In e-court it is 4D337.  Let us have a look at it, please.

 5        Q.   As far as this document is concerned, you have already seen it

 6     before.  It was sent to the commander of the special police brigade and

 7     other addressees.  It is an order signed for staff commander, Tomislav

 8     Kovac.

 9             Let us look at the first paragraph.  Can you see it?

10        A.   Yes, I can rather poorly.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Could we please zoom in.  Thank you.

12        Q.   The first paragraph says:  "Dedicate part of the MUP RS forces

13     participating in combat in the Sarajevo theatre and sent as an

14     independent unit to the area of Srebrenica in the course of tomorrow,"

15     which is the 11th of July.

16             I'm also interested in item 2:  "It should also comprise the

17     2nd Special Detachment of the police in Sekovici, the 1st Company of the

18     PJP Zvornik, a mixed company of the joint forces of MUP and RSK of Serbia

19     and the Republika Srpska, and the company from the training centre in

20     Jahorina."

21             The third item says:  "I appoint Ljubisa Borovcanin, deputy

22     commander of the special police brigade, to command the MUP units."

23             My first question is this:  In July 1995, when you went in the

24     area of Srebrenica -- sorry, to participate in combat in Bratunac and

25     further on, were you aware at the time that the 1st PJP Company was made

Page 26990

 1     part of a mixed unit?

 2        A.   I was not.

 3        Q.   Did you know that Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin was appointed commander

 4     of such a mixed unit?

 5        A.   I didn't know that either.

 6        Q.   Did you know who Ljubomir Borovcanin was at all?

 7        A.   I didn't know him.  He was just an acquaintance.

 8        Q.   Could you please repeat your answer?

 9        A.   I used to see Mr. Borovcanin on occasion, I knew him by sight, I

10     didn't know him personally.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I believe it is sufficiently clear now.

12             Let us not repeat what was already said in some other witness's

13     testimonies.  Let us now move directly to the point of departure in

14     Zvornik.  Can you tell us where you assembled in Zvornik and on what day?

15        A.   We gathered in front of the Zvornik police station on the 11th of

16     July 2002.

17        Q.   Can you give us an approximation, what time of day was it?

18        A.   I think in the early evening, in the evening hours.

19        Q.   In the transcript, it says the 11th of July 2002.  Can you tell

20     us what year it was?

21        A.   The 11th of July 2005 -- sorry, 1995.

22        Q.   That's okay.  You gathered there -- well, I don't want to put

23     words in your mouth.  But did you have any vehicles; if so, which and

24     where did you go?

25        A.   Once gathered in front of the station, we set off on buses

Page 26991

 1     towards Bratunac.

 2        Q.   Were there also members of the 1st PJP Company who were not from

 3     the police station on Zvornik on board the bus?  Here, I mean the traffic

 4     safety police station and others.

 5        A.   With us, it was only members of the PS Zvornik and the traffic

 6     police station in Zvornik, because we comprised the 1st Platoon.

 7        Q.   Were you told where you were to go?

 8        A.   We were told to go to Bratunac.

 9        Q.   Did you learn anything specific about it, except for the fact

10     that you were to go to Bratunac?

11        A.   Nothing else was said except for that.

12        Q.   On your journey to Bratunac, did you stop anywhere?

13        A.   We stopped in Konjevic Polje.  There we were joined by certain

14     members from Vlasenici and Milici.

15        Q.   I have a few questions concerning Konjevic Polje.  Was there a

16     police checkpoint in Konjevic Polje?

17        A.   Yes, there was, a civilian police checkpoint.

18        Q.   Very well.  Were there any other police companies' members that

19     you could see in Konjevic Polje?

20        A.   Not at that time.  I didn't see anyone save for the members of my

21     company and the 1st Company.

22        Q.   Approximately, when did you arrive in Bratunac on the 11th of

23     July?

24        A.   We arrived in Bratunac, I think, between 6.00 and 7.00 p.m.

25        Q.   When you left Zvornik, did you bring along any combat equipment,

Page 26992

 1     and if so, what?

 2        A.   I carried my automatic rifle and five clips.  It is standard for

 3     combat ammo kit.

 4        Q.   Did you receive any additional food, you as the 1st PJP Company

 5     members?

 6        A.   We received none.

 7        Q.   When you got to Bratunac, where did you got off the bus?

 8        A.   We got off in front of the police -- of the public security

 9     station in Bratunac.

10        Q.   Were you accompanied by any officers of the 1st PJP Company?

11        A.   We were accompanied by the deputy of the 1st Company, Radislav

12     Stuparevic, and the 1st Platoon commander, Cvijan Ristic.

13        Q.   Was Radomir Pantic with you on the bus?

14        A.   He was not.

15        Q.   So you arrive in front of the police station in Bratunac.  What

16     happened next?  Were you told about what was going on?

17        A.   When we arrived in front of the station, we were waited there by

18     the 1st Company commander, Radomir Pantic, and some members of the

19     1st Company.  Up to that point, I didn't know what was going on in

20     Srebrenica before I came to Bratunac.

21        Q.   Very well.  Tell me, how did things develop?  Where were you

22     billeted, if at all?

23        A.   That evening we were billeted in a school, in a gym of that

24     school.  Commander Pantic told us to stick together, not to wander away.

25        Q.   On the 11th of July 1995, did you receive any specific tasks?

Page 26993

 1        A.   We were only told that there was a possibility we would be moving

 2     to the Zuti Most area, but that was to be the next day.

 3        Q.   Please tell me, when did you first hear that the VRS forces had

 4     entered Srebrenica?

 5        A.   It was that evening when I arrived in Bratunac.

 6        Q.   Was there any talk?  Did people know what was happening with the

 7     troops from Srebrenica, to be quite specific with the BH Army groups?

 8        A.   Well, nobody knew where they were, what they were doing.  They

 9     were probably in the woods around that area.

10        Q.   Fine.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Let us now look at the next document in e-court.

12     That's P3110.

13        Q.   It is a bulletin of daily events of the Zvornik public security

14     centre.  The date is the 11th or the 12th of July 1995.  Could you please

15     look at page 2 of this document entitled "Combat Operations."

16             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Could we please zoom in for the witness.

17        Q.   You can see here it says "Combat Operations."  That's item

18     number 1.  Could you please look at the third paragraph in this bulletin

19     or report.  It says here:  "In the course of the day," that would be

20     the 11th, "the 1st PJP of the public security centre from Zvornik was

21     sent to this frontline at 1830, while the other defence lines in the

22     Visin [phoen], Vukovina area is manned by the 4th Company of the CJB PJP

23     with 81 police officers; whereas, the Konjevic Polje and Han Pogled

24     areas, there is the 6th Company of the CJB PJP with 52 police officers?"

25             Let me now go through some items regarding this bulletin.  It

Page 26994

 1     says that the 1st Company was sent at 1830 hours.  To the best of your

 2     recollection, is that the time when you headed out of Bratunac?

 3        A.   Yes, I think so.

 4        Q.   We can see here, in this paragraph, that it is indicated that

 5     other lines in the Visin-Vukovina areas, the 4th Company of the SJB

 6     Zvornik PJP, and that in Konjevic Polje and Han Pogled, there is the 6th

 7     Company.

 8             You, as the 1st Company, did you have anything to do with the two

 9     companies that are mentioned in this bulletin?

10        A.   No.  We had nothing to do with the 4th and the 6th company.

11        Q.   Fine.  You spent the night, as you've already told us.

12             MR. LAZAREVIC:  We won't be needing this document anymore.

13        Q.   You spent the night in the gym, as you described to us.  Could

14     you please tell us what happened then, in the morning of the 12th?  When

15     did you wake up?  What happened next?

16        A.   On the 12th, we got up before dawn, between 4.00 and 5.00.  I

17     can't remember exactly.  Then we were put on buses and we were taken to

18     the Zuti Most area.

19        Q.   Tell me, your bus stopped in front of the Zuti Most.  Could you

20     please tell me, at the time when you reached this area in front of Zuti

21     Most, could you please tell us what was the weather like.

22        A.   Well, it was foggy.  The visibility was poor.

23        Q.   So you and your unit got off the bus.  Could you please tell us

24     whether Commander Pantic was there with you?

25        A.   Yes.  Commander Pantic was there with us.

Page 26995

 1        Q.   Did he arrive on the bus or on his own?

 2        A.   He was on the bus with us.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you this:  As you got off the bus there, did you

 4     notice any medical support elements there?

 5        A.   I saw an ambulance which was close to this place where we got off

 6     the bus.

 7        Q.   Let me ask you this, apart from your company, was there anybody

 8     else there that did not belong to your company and but you were able to

 9     see them, a soldier for instance?

10        A.   I think there was a soldier from the Bratunac Brigade, I think.

11     I don't know whether he was a deminer or what.  I'm not sure.

12        Q.   So, tell me, as you got off the bus, were you told your mission?

13        A.   Yes.  Commander Pantic told us that we were to search the area to

14     the left of Zuti Most, heading towards a hill.

15        Q.   Fine.  Could you please tell me, as you were in this area in

16     front of Zuti Most, were you able to see Mr. Borovcanin?

17        A.   Yes.  I could see him that morning.  He was with my commander,

18     Mr. Pantic.  They were some 20 or 30 metres away from us.

19        Q.   So could you tell us, what were you able to observe?  What was

20     Mr. Borovcanin doing?

21        A.   Mr. Borovcanin was talking to my commander, Mr. Pantic.  I don't

22     know what they were talking about.

23        Q.   Fine.  Could you please tell us, how did things proceed?  Where

24     was your unit headed?

25        A.   We headed to the area to the right of Zuti Most in single file,

Page 26996

 1     and we were accompanied by this deminer.  It was his task to lead us

 2     through the minefield.

 3        Q.   Could you please tell us what happened then?

 4        A.   This soldier led some dozen members of the 1st Company through

 5     the minefield, and on the way back, he stepped on to a mine and he was

 6     seriously wounded.

 7        Q.   Fine.  Let me ask you a couple of follow-up questions.  Did you

 8     receive any information whether any UN forces were deployed in that area?

 9        A.   Yes.  Before heading out to conduct the search operation,

10     Commander Pantic told us that from Zuti Most onwards, there was a

11     checkpoint, an UNPROFOR checkpoint, but we couldn't see it because it was

12     foggy, and that we should not open fire or do anything else against this

13     UNPROFOR point.

14        Q.   Fine.  Let us move on.  So your unit is heading out in single

15     file, there was this incident in which this young man was wounded.  I

16     assume that this kept you there for awhile?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   So please proceed, tell me what happened next?

19        A.   After that, we made a detour around this minefield and then we

20     spread out, and when we entered the village, we encountered some trenches

21     and connecting trenches.

22        Q.   Did you encounter any resistance by the Muslim forces in the

23     course of this search operation?

24        A.   Not in this village.  There was no resistance.  In fact, we did

25     not encounter any armed groups.  We did not encounter any civilians in

Page 26997

 1     that village either.

 2        Q.   Had you received any orders concerning civilians?

 3        A.   Yes, from Commander Pantic.  If we were to encounter any armed

 4     groups, if they offered resistance, then we were to deal with it in a

 5     military way; and if we encountered civilians, we were not to touch them.

 6     We were to leave them where they were.

 7        Q.   In order to complete your evidence today, I would like to speed

 8     up now.  We don't want to have to recall you or make you stay here

 9     longer.  So, after the search operation was completed, once you

10     ascertained that there was nobody there, civilians or military personnel,

11     what happened next?

12        A.   We carried out the search of that area and we got up on to a

13     hill, an elevation; and since we didn't find anyone in the village, we

14     received an order to move down towards Potocari.

15        Q.   So you got down from that hill, the elevation that you reached in

16     the course of the search operation.  So where did you go?

17        A.   We got down to the tarmac road leading towards Srebrenica.  It's

18     the Bilici-Bratunac road leading to Srebrenica.

19        Q.   How long -- how far were you from the UN base, if you were at a

20     distance at all?  How far was that location where you were on the road?

21        A.   Well, I couldn't be very specific because I really didn't know

22     where it was, so I couldn't give you the exact location where we got on

23     the road.  I think maybe 30 to 50 metres, something like that.

24        Q.   Very well.  I will not belabour the point.  From that place where

25     you were, were you able to see the UN base, the DutchBat base?

Page 26998

 1        A.   When we got down on to the road, I could see the Dutch soldiers

 2     who were guarding the civilians who were in a factory.

 3        Q.   Did you yourself approach the civilians?

 4        A.   I did not approach the civilians at all.  I wasn't even on the

 5     road itself.  We were on the other side of the road.  The factory was on

 6     the other side, and I didn't cross the road at all.

 7        Q.   But do you know if anyone else from your unit perhaps approached

 8     the civilians?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I can't tell you.

10        Q.   Very well.  How long did you remain there, if you can tell us?

11        A.   I and a few of my colleagues remained there for maybe ten or 15

12     minutes tops.

13        Q.   During that time, did you have an opportunity to observe the

14     arrival of any transport vehicles, such as, for instance, buses or

15     trucks?

16        A.   Well, I did see some buses and trucks arriving and going down to

17     the factory where the civilians were.

18        Q.   While you were there and while you were able to observe what was

19     happening with this large group of refugees, were you able to observe any

20     violence against them, were you able to observe that men were being

21     separated from women, things of that nature?

22        A.   I did not see that.

23        Q.   Fine.  So the bus came to pick you up and you went away.  Could

24     you please tell us, where did you go?

25        A.   When the bus arrived, we boarded the bus and we went to Bratunac.

Page 26999

 1     We got off the bus in front of the police station.

 2        Q.   Fine.  Did you remain there at the time?

 3        A.   We did spend sometime there.  I don't know how long it was.

 4     Perhaps four or five hour, something like that.  I'm not sure.

 5        Q.   Could you tell me, where did your unit go after that, after this

 6     stay in front of the Bratunac police station?

 7        A.   After maybe four or five hours, as I've already indicated,

 8     Pantic, Commander Pantic told us that we were to go to the Sandici area.

 9     We boarded the buses and we drove off towards Sandici.  Up until that

10     time I didn't know the place at all.

11        Q.   So that's what you did, you just went on?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you reached Sandici?

14        A.   Yes.  We reached Sandici.

15        Q.   So this place, Sandici, where you were deployed, did you know

16     that place from before, or was that the first time that you got there?

17        A.   As I've already said, I did not know that place at all.  This was

18     the first time that I was in the area.

19        Q.   So you reached this area, and how did things unfold once you got

20     off the bus?

21        A.   We got off the bus.  Commander Pantic deployed us from this house

22     that was partly destroyed downhill towards Konjevic Polje, and so we were

23     deployed in this manner in the direction of Konjevic Polje.

24        Q.   Was there a pattern to your deployment?  Were you all in one

25     place?

Page 27000

 1        A.   No, we were not all in one place.  We were spaced apart maybe ten

 2     or 15 minutes --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Metres.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Just a few more questions about this.

 6             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let me just correct for the

 7     record.  It's okay now.

 8        Q.   Did anyone tell you what your task was when you were deployed

 9     there in the area of this road?

10        A.   Well, Commander Pantic told us that the Muslim forces might

11     attempt to break through and to cut the road, and it was our task to

12     prevent them because that would endanger the Serb population behind our

13     backs.

14        Q.   What time of day was it when you arrived in Sandici?

15        A.   I think it was in the early evening, between 6.00 and 7.00 or

16     8.00 p.m.

17        Q.   The place at which you were deployed, could you see what the

18     traffic was behind you from that point?

19        A.   I could see it, we were right next to the road, buses were

20     passing by.  Several buses with civilians passed by with UNPROFOR escort.

21     There were a number of transport and passenger vehicles that passed by as

22     well.

23        Q.   Were you able to observe a bus convoy?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   In the sense of who was on the buses, could you see that?

Page 27001

 1        A.   I did see a convoy.

 2        Q.   Excuse me.  You've already answered that.  My mistake.  I should

 3     have been following the transcript more carefully.

 4             What followed in the course of the night of the 12th of July.

 5        A.   During the night in front of us in the woods, one could hear

 6     firing on several occasions, firing from firearms, of course.

 7        Q.   Were you engaged in combat during that night?  Did you open fire?

 8     Were you fired upon before the next morning?

 9        A.   We did not open fire until the next morning.

10        Q.   During the night between the 12th and the 13th of July, did you

11     take any prisoners?

12        A.   We did not.

13        Q.   For the record, the question was:  "Did you open fire at all

14     during the night in the direction from which you could hear the firing?"

15        A.   No.  We did not open fire until the next morning at 3.00 or 4.00.

16        Q.   Very well.  In your own words, could you explain to us what

17     happened the next morning around 3.00 or 4.00?

18        A.   Between 3.00 or 4.00, there was firing, the Muslim forces

19     attacked our positions, there were several explosions, and I was wounded

20     on that occasion, as well as my mate, Zarko Zaric and Nenad Andric.  A

21     guy from Bratunac was killed as well, I don't know his name.

22        Q.   I understand that you cannot recall that.  Can you tell us, where

23     did the attack come from?

24        A.   It came from an area that was in front of us from the hill and

25     the woods.  We were positioned on [indiscernible] towards that area.

Page 27002

 1        Q.   In your assessment, to the extent you were able to see, how long

 2     did the attack last?

 3        A.   For about ten minutes, not more than that.

 4        Q.   You have told us already that you were injured then.  Can you

 5     tell us what happened to you subsequently?  Were you taken anywhere?

 6        A.   I was put in a vehicle, although I don't remember which, and

 7     taken to the health centre in Bratunac.

 8        Q.   Very well.

 9             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Let us look next at a document that is in

10     e-court.  It is 4D51892 [as interpreted], which is a logbook of the

11     Bratunac healthcare centre, dated the 13th of July 1995.

12             It seems the number is incorrect.  It is 4DP1892.  The page I

13     need has ERN number 0179-3918.  Very well.

14        Q.   Can you see the document in front of you?

15        A.   Yes, I can.

16        Q.   The second column from the top, the second row from the top:

17     "1484, the 13th of July 1995, 4.45."

18             In the next column, can we see your name and your father's name?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  [Previous translation continues] ... this guy was

21     hospitalized.

22             Let's be practical please and let's move.

23             MR. THAYER:  There's no dispute about that, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's proceed.

25             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 27003

 1        Q.   Very well.  Can you tell me, how long did you stay at the

 2     Bratunac health centre?

 3        A.   I spent an hour there or so, and then I was taken to Zvornik.

 4        Q.   What happened in Zvornik?

 5        A.   In Zvornik, I was merely checked and referred to Loznica.

 6        Q.   Were you, indeed, taken to Loznica?

 7        A.   Yes, I was, and I was treated there for about a fortnight.  On my

 8     request, I was discharged for home treatment, home care.

 9        Q.   What were your injuries?  We seem to have omitted that.

10        A.   I was injured to my head; my face and my eyes.

11        Q.   Very well.

12             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I'd like us to have a look at another document

13     which is 4D555.  We do not have a translation.  We have asked for it but

14     are still awaiting it.  It is a medical record, and we did not dare

15     produce an unofficial translation.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you explain to us what is the importance of

17     this part of the evidence?

18             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Only to find out the period in which the witness

19     was in Serbia for healing, because it dates from the 13th to the 25th

20     of --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just put it to him.  "Were you in Serbia for this

22     reason on such a day and such a day?"  Then we finish there.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, I will do that.  I will have just a

24     couple of more questions and that would be it.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, from the document, we can see that you were

Page 27004

 1     treated at the eye ward in Loznica between 13th of July and 25th of July

 2     1995?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Therefore, that is the correct period?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like us to have a look at

 7     another document which is 503113 [as interpreted].

 8             [In English] P03113.  It's not 5, it's P.  Sorry.  It's okay.

 9        Q.   As you know, this is a bulletin similar to the one you saw

10     already, a bulletin of daily events of the Zvornik public security centre

11     for the 13th and 14th of July 1995.

12             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 2 of the

13     document.

14        Q.   Do you see where it says "Combat Operations"?  It says:  "In the

15     morning of the 13th of July 1995, large groups of enemy military

16     formations from Srebrenica infiltrated ..."

17             I won't go on reading the paragraph, but I'm interested in this

18     part:  "In the course of the fighting in these places, police officer

19     Zeljko Ninkovic was killed from the public security station; Milos

20     Zoljic, Zarko Zaric, and Nenad Andric were seriously wounded; while Nenad

21     Filipovic was lightly wounded."

22       Does this tally with what, indeed, took place?

23        A.   Yes, it does.

24        Q.   I'm interested in one name.  I see that in addition to the three

25     of you who were wounded in Sandici and Zeljko Ninkovic for whom we know

Page 27005

 1     was killed, the name of Milos Zoljic appears as well.

 2             Do you know that person?

 3        A.   He is a cousin of mine, and I believe he was with the

 4     6th company.  He was wounded in Konjevic Polje, as I learned later.

 5        Q.   To conclude, I have a few questions left.

 6             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I apologise.  In transcript, we have --

 7        Q.   Well, can you tell us again, Milos Zoljic was a member of which

 8     company?

 9        A.   The 6th, I believe.

10        Q.   Where was he wounded?

11        A.   In Konjevic Polje.  I learned that later.

12        Q.   Very well.  Upon return from treatment, how long did you stay on

13     sick leave?

14        A.   Perhaps a month and a half or two.  I'm not certain.

15        Q.   I only have a few questions about your former statements.  Have

16     you given any statements to the various organs of the police,

17     investigative judges, or an agency of any kind?

18        A.   Yes.  I gave -- I have given two statements to the police, one in

19     Sarajevo.

20        Q.   Did you give all those statements prior to meeting with the

21     Defence of Mr. Borovcanin?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   During your proofing, you could see those statements for the

24     first time since you were shown those statements by the Defence?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 27006

 1        Q.   Well, when those statements were being drafted, were you able to

 2     read them before signing them?

 3        A.   I gave the first ones -- the first two in Zvornik and Bijeljina.

 4     As for the Sarajevo statement, I was able to read it.

 5        Q.   Let us clarify something, regarding the first two statements in

 6     Zvornik and Bijeljina, were you able to read them before signing them?

 7        A.   I did not read them at all.

 8        Q.   I think the transcript remains unclear.  When you gave the

 9     statements, did you then read them before signing them; that is to say,

10     not yesterday or the day before when we were proofing you for your

11     testimony?

12        A.   No, I did not read them.

13        Q.   Very well.  During the proofing, you pointed out a number of

14     mistakes you were able to observe in those two statements, and there were

15     some slight incorrections in the third statement you provided?

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

20             Mr. Zivanovic?

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No question for this witness, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  No, thank you, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon.

25             MR. BOURGON:  No questions, Mr. President.

Page 27007

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse.

 4             MR. JOSSE:  Nothing, thank you.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa.

 6             MR. SARAPA:  No questions, thank you.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President, I won't be able to finish before

 9     the break, but I will definitely finish today.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

12        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

13        A.   Good afternoon.

14        Q.   My name is Nelson Thayer, I'll be asking you a few questions on

15     behalf of the Prosecution.  The first thing I want to do is show you just

16     two photographs and see if you can help us place some names to a couple

17     of faces.

18             You told the Prosecutor's investigators in Sarajevo that when you

19     went to Bratunac with your PJP platoon, Rista Ikonic and Mile Savic were

20     with you.  Can you confirm that those two Zvornik police officers were

21     with you for this mission?

22        A.   Yes, they were.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I apologise.  I don't want to interrupt.  We

24     still haven't got the list from the Prosecution.

25             MR. THAYER:  It should be on its way.

Page 27008

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Do you prefer if because I prefer to

 2     stick to what is the best practice.  If you prefer to stop here for the

 3     time being until you receive the list and Mr. Thayer continues after the

 4     break, we can do that.  We can have the break now.

 5             MR. THAYER:  That's fine with the Prosecution, Mr. President.

 6             MR. LAZAREVIC:  We would prefer to have the list before

 7     Mr. Thayer starts that was the practice for now.

 8             MR. THAYER:  It's been sent.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have the 25 minute break now.  Thank you.

10                           --- Break taken at 12.20 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Sir, I want to show you some very quick video clips, and I have

15     some still photographs from the video, just so see if you can help us

16     with two identifications of people who were at Sandici at the same time

17     you were.  Okay?

18             So if you can just watch your monitor and we'll see some footage

19     in a second.

20             MR. THAYER:  For the record, this is from P02047, the trial

21     video, 2 hours 37 minutes 50 seconds.

22                           [Videotape played].

23             MR. THAYER:

24        Q.   Now, sir, we've paused it at 2 hours 38 minutes 7.1 seconds.  If

25     your image is as blurry as mine is, I'm going to give you that photo

Page 27009

 1     still.

 2             There are two individuals depicted in this photograph.  I'm

 3     asking you whether you can recognise the younger one on the left with the

 4     overalls wrapped around waist.

 5        A.   I don't recognise this gentleman.

 6        Q.   I thank you, sir.  We'll be done with this exhibit.  I'm going to

 7     show you another clip taken near the destroyed white house at Sandici.

 8                           [Videotape played]

 9             MR. THAYER:

10        Q.   Now, there are three men in this picture.  The man on the far

11     right has been identified by Mile Savic as himself, and I'm going to show

12     you the video still photograph.  First of all, can you confirm, sir, that

13     that is Mile Savic on the far right, with the mustache, walking basically

14     out of the shot?

15        A.   Yes, this is Mile Savic.

16        Q.   And my question to you, sir:  There is a gentleman in the middle

17     of these three also in a camouflage uniform.  Please take a look at that

18     photograph.  Can you identify that person for us?  Do you know who that

19     is?

20        A.   No, I don't know who this soldier is.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.

22             MR. THAYER:  We are at 2 hours 52 minutes 32.5 seconds, and we

23     are done.

24        Q.   Now, just moving along, sir, you testified that you did not bring

25     your service pistol with you in the field.  How about hand grenades, did

Page 27010

 1     you have any hand grenades with you?

 2        A.   No, we didn't, or at least I didn't.

 3        Q.   Okay.  There was an interview of a third platoon PJP officer.

 4     His name is Srdjan Milosevic.  He was the komandir of the 3rd Section of

 5     the 3rd Platoon, a police officer from Bratunac.

 6             Do you know Srdjan Milosevic, sir?

 7        A.   No, I don't know him by name.

 8        Q.   He told the Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo that he brought with

 9     him on this mission his automatic rifle, two hand grenades, four

10     ammunition clips for his rifle, a 7.65 millimetre pistol, and his

11     camouflage jumpsuit, and that was for this specific mission.

12             Just ask you to search your recollection again, sir, do you think

13     you might be wrong when you testified that no one had service pistols or

14     hand grenades with them in the field on this mission?

15        A.   I didn't say that nobody had.  I say that I myself didn't carry

16     any hand grenades.

17             MR. LAZAREVIC:  There was one piece of evidence missing here in

18     his answer.  He says:  "I didn't know.  I didn't say that nobody had.  I

19     don't know."  That's what he said.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

21             MR. THAYER:

22        Q.   And, sir, did your uniform that you wore in the field have a

23     particular patch?

24        A.   Well, there was a patch worn on the left shoulder.  It said

25     "police."

Page 27011

 1        Q.   And do you remember whether it said anything else or just

 2     "policija"?

 3        A.   Nothing else, just "policija."

 4        Q.   Now, taking you to the search of the terrain in the morning of 12

 5     July, as you approached Potocari, who was near you during this search?

 6     Who from your platoon or your company, if your platoon had been split up

 7     at all, do you recall being near you?

 8        A.   Well, I couldn't really recall.  A long time has elapsed, so I

 9     couldn't recall.

10        Q.   Okay.  Now, you also told the SIPA investigators in Sarajevo,

11     that Commander Pantic had told you that Potocari was an inhabited area

12     with houses, but, and I'm quoting now from your statement - and this is

13     at page 8 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S - I quote:  "We did not

14     find anybody in those houses but we knew that Muslims lived in there."

15             Can you confirm, sir, that those houses were, in fact, searched

16     that morning; and if so, by whom?

17        A.   I didn't understand the question.  Whether they went into the

18     houses or what?

19        Q.   Well, when you told the Prosecutor's office in Sarajevo that "We

20     did not fine anybody this those houses," my question to you is:  Who went

21     in the houses to determine that there was nobody in them?

22        A.   Well, I don't know who went in.  I did not get into any of the

23     houses.

24        Q.   Were you aware that other people with you on this search of the

25     terrain did go into the houses, even though you might not have been near

Page 27012

 1     them?

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  He already answered this question, I think.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  [Microphone not activated]

 4             MR. THAYER:  Well, Mr. President, he hasn't answered that

 5     particular question.  I'm following up on his prior answer.  He say "I

 6     don't know who went in.  I did not get into any of houses."

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  But if he doesn't know who went in, how do you

 8     expect him to answer this question any further?

 9             MR. THAYER:  If he has any awareness of anybody going in,

10     that's --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  I told you, he already said "I don't know who went

12     in."  So --

13             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  I'll move on.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just one final touch to it.

15             You didn't go inside any of these houses, you don't know who went

16     into these houses, but do you know that someone did go into these houses,

17     although you don't know who?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who or whether went in

19     at all.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

21             Let's proceed, Mr. Thayer.

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   Sir, did you see any dogs accompanying any of the Serb forces who

24     were scouring the terrain towards Potocari?

25        A.   I didn't see any dogs.

Page 27013

 1        Q.   And when you got closer to the UN compound where this massive

 2     crowd of civilians had gathered, did you stay in one place once you got

 3     down there?

 4        A.   Well, I didn't stay there.  As soon as we got down to the tarmac

 5     road, we headed towards Bratunac on foot.  It's about 500 metres.

 6        Q.   Now, you told the investigators in Sarajevo - this is at page 8

 7     of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S - you told them that you saw that

 8     buses had arrived and that the Muslim civilians from that factory complex

 9     were boarding them.  Can you confirm that you saw this, sir?

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I believe that there is a proofing note, and my

11     colleague is well aware of it.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Answer the question please, Mr. Filipovic.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see that they were

14     starting to board, but as I move towards Bratunac, I could see the buses

15     with civilians pass by.

16             MR. THAYER:

17        Q.   Now, you didn't see any separations, though, is that your

18     testimony; that is, males being separated from their families?

19        A.   No, I didn't see anything.

20        Q.   Now, I'd like to show you 65 ter 3803.  I just want to ask you

21     some specific questions about the statement that you gave to the

22     Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo on 8 October 2007.

23             MR. THAYER:  And if we could go to page 9 of the English and

24     page 5 of the B/C/S.

25        Q.   Now, you testified that you had a chance to look at this most

Page 27014

 1     recently with my learned friends before your proofing, and I understand

 2     it from the proofing note that you only had two minor corrections.  One

 3     is that the buses with the population were going in the direction of

 4     Bratunac, which you saw while on your way to Bratunac; and that there's a

 5     reference later on to buses passing by non-stop when you are at Sandici,

 6     but you wish to correct that there was traffic and there was different

 7     vehicles passing by, but not that it was non-stop.

 8             Does that fairly capture the only two changes you wanted to make

 9     after you reviewed the statement?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  If we look at paragraph 9 of the English.

12             MR. THAYER:  And we're going to have to -- sorry, page 9 of the

13     English and page 5 of the B/C/S.  We are looking at paragraph 5, which

14     continues from the previous page.

15        Q.   You stated that, and I quote:  "The buses that arrived to

16     Potocari made a U-turn at the factory, and when the people embarked the

17     buses, they drove away in the direction of Bratunac.  I knew that all

18     those people would be transferred to Kladanj in those buses.  I knew that

19     because we had been told so."

20             Do you see that in your statement, sir?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   My question to you is:  Who told you that the population was

23     going to be transported to Kladanj that morning?

24        A.   Well, I couldn't tell you.  That somebody was saying that, but I

25     can't give you the name now.

Page 27015

 1        Q.   Now, before we move on to Sandici, sir, I just want to put a

 2     couple of propositions to you.  The first is that we have statements from

 3     numerous witnesses, such as UNPROFOR Dutch soldiers, who were either at

 4     the checkpoint near Yellow Bridge or who were watching what was happening

 5     from a distance.  These statements detail how the Dutch checkpoint near

 6     Yellow Bridge was disarmed by Serb forces, how the communications in that

 7     checkpoint were disabled, and how the Dutch soldiers there were not free

 8     to leave.

 9             Do you know anything about that, sir?

10        A.   I don't know anything about that.

11        Q.   We also have statements from numerous witnesses, including more

12     DutchBat UN soldiers, that as the Serb forces advanced down from the area

13     of Yellow Bridge towards Potocari, that those Serb forces were cleansing

14     the houses with grenades and dogs.

15             Do you know anything about that, sir?

16        A.   That's not correct.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let's move to Sandici for just a few more questions.  You

18     testified that you waited for a period of time in Bratunac after being

19     driven there from Potocari, and that you were then ordered to be deployed

20     along the Konjevic Polje Road; correct?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.

22        Q.   Did you ever receive an order to go on to Zvornik, or was your

23     order only to be deployed on that road in the area of Sandici?

24        A.   Just to deploy along the road at Sandici.

25        Q.   Now, if we could go back to your statement.

Page 27016

 1             MR. THAYER:  I don't know if it's still on e-court.  Okay, great.

 2        Q.   You also told the Sarajevo Prosecutor's Office that, and I quote:

 3     "We were also told that there were armed Muslims moving through the

 4     forest and posing a threat.  They would cut off the road communication

 5     between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje, and, by doing so, putting the

 6     Serbian population in a threatened position and preventing passage of

 7     buses with civilians from Potocari."

 8             My question is simple, sir:  Do you stand by that statement?

 9        A.   Well, we received the order to prevent the road from being

10     blocked lest there should be any threat to the Serb population.

11        Q.   Now, you also say in this statement, in addition to preventing

12     the threat to the Serb population, preventing passage of buses with

13     civilians from Potocari.  Who was the source of that information, sir?

14     Was that Commander Pantic, or was that somebody else that was part of the

15     reason for your deployment?

16        A.   Well, I don't know.  I can't really answer this question.  I

17     don't know who told you [as interpreted] that.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

19     be asked to speak up.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Filipovic, Mr. Filipovic?  If you could

21     come closer to the microphones, please, and raise your voice a little bit

22     because the interpreters are having problems.  Thank you.

23             MR. THAYER:

24        Q.   Okay.  Sir, this may be --

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Just one small correction for the transcript.  On

Page 27017

 1     page 72, it's line 20, "... who told me that."  It's line 18, or maybe

 2     20, I don't know.  We have a different transcript one on the LiveNote.

 3             MR. THAYER:  I thank my friends.  That's exactly what I was going

 4     to try to clarify.

 5        Q.   When you say "I don't know who told me that," what you are

 6     telling the Trial Chamber is you don't recall who told you that

 7     preventing the passage of buses with civilians from Potocari was one of

 8     the concerns that prompted your deployment to that road?

 9        A.   I don't recall who told me that.

10        Q.   Now, you testified about being deployed -- I'm sorry.  You, I

11     believe, told the prosecutor's office in Sarajevo that you were deployed

12     next to a house, and that the 2nd Detachment of the special police

13     brigade was deployed from the area of that house towards Bratunac.

14             Can you confirm that that is an accurate statement, sir?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And was that one of the destroyed houses, or was that a destroyed

17     house that I think you may have mentioned earlier; do you remember?

18        A.   That's the house that was destroyed.

19        Q.   And you also told the Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo that

20     Commander Pantic, and I quote - and this is page 10 of the English, page

21     6 of the B/C/S - I quote:  "... informed us that in the case the Muslims

22     appear and carry out an armed attack, we were to reply in the same way

23     and to engage them in battle.  If they would not attack us but start to

24     surrender, we were supposed to escort them to Bratunac.  I do not know

25     where exactly were they to be escorted to and to whom."

Page 27018

 1             Do you stand by that answer that you gave in your interview as

 2     well, sir?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Sir, I thank you.

 5             MR. THAYER:  I have no further questions.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Is there any re-examination?

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  One single question, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

10        Q.   Mr. Filipovic, it appears to me that there is something left

11     unclear after the question that you were asked about the passage of the

12     convoy.  Did anyone, at the time when you were given a task and deployed

13     there, did anyone tell you about the convoy that was supposed to pass

14     through?

15        A.   Nobody told us anything about that.

16             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

17     Thank you very much.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Filipovic, we are finished with

19     your testimony.  You are free to go back home.  Our staff will assist

20     you.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come

21     over to give testimony and I also wish you a safe journey back home.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Documents, Mr. Lazarevic?

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Two documents, Your Honour.  Let me just take a

Page 27019

 1     look.  Three -- two only, I'm sorry:  4D555, it's a medical report; and

 2     P3110, it's CJB Zvornik Bulletin number 193/95.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection --

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC:  For the first one, translation is still pending.

 5             MR. THAYER:  No objection, Mr. President, and we have no

 6     documents.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So these documents are admitted.  I

 8     take it there are no objections from anyone else.

 9             Before we adjourn, there are two things.  One is Borovcanin

10     motion that has not been objected to at, which we can dispose of orally.

11     You will recall that on the 3rd of October -- or before the 3rd of

12     October, the Borovcanin Defence team had asked for seeking admission

13     pursuant to rule 92 bis of the statements of Dr. Petar Loncarevic, and

14     the transcript of the testimony of Krsto Simic, and Blagojevic and Jokic.

15             The Prosecution, as I said, has not objected, and having gone

16     through the details of the motion, we consider that the evidence of both

17     Loncarevic and that of Krsto Simic meets the requirements of 92 bis.  So

18     we are granting the motion providing the following:  Namely, that the

19     Borovcanin Defence team -- in other words, the motion is being granted on

20     these conditions:  That the Borovcanin Defence team provides the

21     statement of Petar Loncarevic in a form that fully complies with Rule 92

22     bis; and, secondly, that the same Defence team provides the exhibits

23     referred to in the transcript of the testimony of Krsto Simic, because

24     otherwise we will not be in a position to follow.

25             The other thing is you will have certainly noticed that the

Page 27020

 1     Appeals Chamber dismissed in its entirety the Popovic appeal against our

 2     decision on motion to re-open the Prosecution case.  The decision of the

 3     Appeals Chamber came on the 24th of September.

 4             Now, in that decision -- in our decision of the 9th May, we had

 5     granted the Prosecution motion of the 7th April, in which the Prosecution

 6     had sought to re-open its case for the purpose of presenting the evidence

 7     of three witnesses.  I don't need to go into details.

 8             During the 65 ter conference which was held on the 20th of May

 9     and the Pre-Defence conference of the 22nd of May of this year, the

10     Prosecution and the Popovic Defence teams were requested to discuss the

11     procedural arrangement that would be needed for re-opening the

12     Prosecution case.  At the 65 ter conference, the parties were told that

13     the Trial Chamber would prefer that the witnesses be called for

14     examination-in-chief and cross-examination at the same time.

15             Since the decision of the Trial Chamber has now been confirmed by

16     the appeals Chamber, we are proposing to you, Mr. Zivanovic, and to you,

17     Mr. McCloskey, to update us, unless you have already reached an

18     agreement, on how you intend to organise the presentation of evidence of

19     these three witnesses, to be followed then by any witnesses that you may

20     wish to call in view of these.

21             So Mr. Thayer?

22             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have he had some discussions

23     with my learned friend.  Basically asked him when he would prefer that

24     that evidence go on.  My understand is that the preference is that it go

25     on at the end of the Defence cases presentations, and we are fine with

Page 27021

 1     that.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Zivanovic, do you wish to add anything?

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, nothing.  That's correct.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I just wanted to confirmation from you.

 6     All right.  Any other business you wish to transact?  None.

 7             We stand adjourned.  Thank you.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.21 p.m.

 9                           to be reconvened the Monday, the 20th day of

10                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.