Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27267

 1                           Thursday, 23 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Nikolic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you, ma'am.  Amongst the accused

11     I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic.  Ms. Nikolic, I understand he's not

12     feeling well today?  Yes.

13             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And he has an

14     appointment with his doctors and he's given us his oral approval or

15     waiver for his right to attend his trial, and I expect that we will get

16     the written document in the course of the day.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Madam.  I appreciate that.  So we can

18     proceed.

19             Prosecution today is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Mitchell.  The Defence

20     teams I notice the absence of Mr. Josse, and that's about it, I think.

21     Yes.

22             I understand, Mr. McCloskey, you also have a preliminary?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, very briefly, Mr. President, and good

24     morning --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

Page 27268

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- everyone.  As you are likely aware 22 October

 2     a Miletic and Pandurevic filed a motion asking that a witness be changed

 3     from -- to go public.  And we have no objection to that, and we would

 4     like just to have you waive any requirement in filing and any response

 5     just to save time.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  So, while usher is bringing

 7     in the witness, let's make things clear.  We are determined to finish

 8     with the testimony of this witness today.  There is no way we will let

 9     you keep this witness here during the weekend.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11                           WITNESS:  LJUBISAV SIMIC [Resumed]

12                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Mr. Simic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  I hope you had a good rest.  We are doing now our

16     utmost to finish your testimony today so that you -- sorry.  My apologies

17     to the interpreters I had my mic off.  So good morning, Mr. Simic, we are

18     trying to do our best to finish our testimony today --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- so that you can join your family as soon as

21     possible.  Mr. Krgovic.

22             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honour.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:  [Continued]

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Simic.

Page 27269

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   Yesterday, when we interrupted your cross-examination, I was

 3     asking you whether in your visit to Srebrenica you passed by the DutchBat

 4     base in the town itself.

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes I did pass by that base --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The counsel and witness

 7     are kindly reminded to make pauses between questions and answers.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did you have an opportunity --

10        A.   I saw what the base looked like and where it was situated between

11     the city cemetery and it seems to me a gas station.  That would be its

12     approximate location.  It was to the right of the road, if you're looking

13     in the direction of town.

14        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to see whether there was any

15     damage caused by shells or any other damage to the base or the area in

16     front of it, to the building itself mainly?

17        A.   Well, I didn't see any damage.  What I did notice were the

18     sandbags or whatever it was used to make those military shelters or

19     whatever you want to call it.  They were all around the base.  They had

20     been set up there.

21        Q.   Mr. Simic, did you by any chance have an opportunity to revisit

22     Srebrenica in that period?  I am now referring to July 1995 after the

23     first visit?

24        A.   Yes, several days later or after the evacuation somebody called

25     me and asked me if I could receive and take somebody to Srebrenica, a

Page 27270

 1     senate or a congressman either from Britain or from America, and he

 2     wanted to go to Srebrenica to just go through at this time, to walk

 3     through it and to drive through it.  That's what he wanted, and that's

 4     what I did.  I went there with him.

 5        Q.   And you had an opportunity to observe what the situation was like

 6     in Srebrenica in detail and to show this foreign national?

 7        A.   Yes.  I think that we walked from the town centre, and he went

 8     wherever he pleased.  I did not instruct him at all.  He went to all the

 9     parts of the town that he wanted to visit, and I merely escorted him.

10        Q.   And what was your impression after that visit?  Were you now able

11     to better observe the state of the town?

12        A.   Yes, of course, because the first time I drove through I was in a

13     car and now I walked the streets together with him.  We didn't see any

14     broken glass, any rubble, any kind of damage that you expect to see in a

15     town after fighting.  And as I said, that's something that I didn't

16     notice even the first time when we just drove through.

17        Q.   Mr. Simic, in your testimony in the Blagojevic case you mentioned

18     that when you were at Potocari you had seen some of your students, some

19     of the people you knew from Srebrenica and that you spoke to them.  Do

20     you remember speaking about that?

21        A.   Yes, I do, and this is something that will remain indelible in my

22     memory.  It was a touching meeting for me, I was moved; and to tell you

23     the truth I was afraid of meeting somebody because I would have felt

24     uncomfortable in -- about meeting them in a situation in which they were

25     in a difficult situation.  But yes, I do remember quite clearly meeting

Page 27271

 1     those people.

 2        Q.   While you were in contact with those people from Srebrenica, did

 3     any of them complain to you about the shelling, about being exposed to

 4     the shelling as civilians or exposed to any kind of abuse by the Serb

 5     forces?

 6        A.   They didn't tell me anything to that effect.  They didn't mention

 7     any kind of abuse or anything of the sort.  The only thing they

 8     complained, this female student of mine told me that she was happy that

 9     the day had finally come for her to leave Srebrenica, and she was sorry

10     that she couldn't do that earlier because most of her family was out of

11     Srebrenica and she was alone there.  And she told me that life in

12     Srebrenica had been very hard on her.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Simic.  I don't have any questions.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Haynes.

15             MR. HAYNES:  No thank you, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes.  Mr. McCloskey.

17             Can you give us an idea how long you will be cross-examining this

18     witness so that we know whether to keep the next witness or not.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I certainly hope to do it within two hours and

20     I'm trying to keep my record of less than an hour, but you just never

21     know.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Please proceed.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Simic.

Page 27272

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   A little deja vu, we've been here before.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Well, your direct testimony and my excellent cross-examination is

 5     already in the record, so we'll try to avoid some of that -- or most of

 6     it if we can.  Let me ask you a couple of issues of -- related to some of

 7     the things you did see.  Do you remember seeing when you were in Potocari

 8     on the 12th this rush for the buses by the Muslims and Muslims trampling

 9     each other?

10        A.   Yes, I did speak about that.

11        Q.   And you did see that?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And I think you also said the Muslims actually left some people

14     behind, got on the bus and left their family behind; is that right?

15        A.   Those who couldn't walk, they had carried them to the buses and

16     then they left them in front of the buses, near the buses, and got onto

17     the buses leaving them behind.  And then I carried those infirm people

18     into the buses.

19        Q.   So you had to carry the Muslim family members because they

20     wouldn't do it themselves?

21        A.   Well, I couldn't just look at those infirm disabled people who

22     were just sitting there looking around, and those were mostly women as

23     I've already indicated.  You could see that they had been disabled since

24     birth, and I tried to stop people, telling them whose family member is

25     this woman?  Why are you leaving her behind?  Things like that.  But they

Page 27273

 1     just went on.  And then I picked those people up and carried them into

 2     the buses, and I put them onto the seats.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And you stand by everything you said in your previous

 4     testimony, let's be clear on that.  Isn't that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you -- what are now your immortal words, you said on page

 7     7612, after describing your the testimony the food, the bread that was

 8     brought to the crowd:

 9             "The food was a drop in the sea, I must say.  I was surprised

10     when I realised what the situation was.  I had never seen anything like

11     it.  It was shocking and remained shocking to me to this day."

12             You stand by those words?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, about the food.  Let me -- I want to read you

15     something short that is in evidence in this case from a Dutch witness

16     named Koster.  His testimony came in at 65 ter 2269.  And he said:

17             "Well, we escorted the Major Nikolic with our liaison officer and

18     an observer, and he walked down through the people.  After that, he

19     returned and also saw the situation, stayed the same for a couple of

20     hours, probably, then one of the commanders came to my position and told

21     me that he would bring a vehicle, loaded with bread for the people and

22     that we should make way for this vehicle.  And it really appeared -- and

23     then they started to give bread to the people.  They also had a camera

24     team accompanying them, and the camera team, well, they were filming

25     while they were giving bread to the people."

Page 27274

 1             So did you see that camera filming when the bread was being

 2     handed out?

 3        A.   I didn't see it.

 4        Q.   Well, it goes on and says:

 5             "And how many people did get the bread?  Did they have something

 6     for everybody?"

 7             Answer:  "No, not at all.  There was a very small truck, and

 8     well, they were throwing the bread and giving the bread to the people.

 9     My interpreter told me while they were doing that they were shouting at

10     the people again and mocking them and calling them names."

11             So while you were around the bread being handed out, did you --

12     did you hear the people handing out the bread calling names and mocking

13     people?

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment, Mr. Simic.  Mr. Gosnell.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Could question just have a page reference, please?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's ERN 01038916, page 38 of Koster's testimony.

17        Q.   So was -- did you hear all that, the mocking and the calling the

18     comments that --

19        A.   No.  First of all, I don't know who drove that truck with the

20     bread, and I heard the people who had come in from Ljubovija invite the

21     people, telling them, Come in, come here, take the bread.  And since this

22     was further away from the buses, I carried the bread there, and I didn't

23     notice anyone calling anyone names.  Actually, I wanted the people who

24     had brought in the bread to distribute it because that was their

25     contribution to all this.

Page 27275

 1        Q.   All right.  And we've heard evidence in this case from a

 2     Corporal Groenewegen, page 2973 of testimony I'm sure we all remember of

 3     testimony from 25 of October, 2006.

 4             Question:  "You also said this was filmed by a Serbian

 5     television, a TV crew that came together with a Serbian soldiers, do you

 6     recall that?"

 7             Answer:  "Yes I do."

 8             And you also said that:  "When the film stopped filming this

 9     distribution of bread that they continued to distributing the bread to

10     refugees?"

11             "Yes, that's correct."

12             So having that in mind do you still recall no -- no filming of

13     the bread?

14        A.   Well, it must have been -- well, somebody must have distributed

15     that bread before I came, and it was not the bread distribution that I

16     took part in.  Because when I got there, I really didn't see any cameras

17     filming.  Well, I cannot deny that, that there was somebody there, but I

18     didn't see anyone there up there with the camera.  And I was not really

19     interested in any cameras.  If somebody had been filming I would not have

20     paid any attention.  However, I do not recall having seeing a camera at

21     Potocari while I was there.  And it was sometime between 1300 hours, so

22     if this distribution was done before 1300 hours, then I was not present

23     there at all.

24        Q.   Okay, let me go over just briefly and confirm some of the things

25     you say you didn't see.  You've just testified that when you went to

Page 27276

 1     Potocari -- when you went to Srebrenica on the 12th and later you saw no

 2     bodies.

 3             Surely, you've seen the famous film that's been played over and

 4     over again of the walk that Mr. Kovac and other made through Srebrenica

 5     on the 14th of July that shows, I believe, three to four dead Muslims in

 6     a gutter with a dog around it.  I won't play that for us.  We've seen

 7     that plenty of times, but you've seen that film, haven't you?  Shot by a

 8     Serbian journalist?

 9        A.   I didn't see that.  I only saw what you mention now, the camera

10     that filmed the first meeting [as interpreted] between Mladic -- or with

11     Mladic, and I saw that Ljubisa Borovcanin was there, that was the first

12     time that I saw it.  The first contact with the people who had gathered

13     at Potocari; and to this day that's the only footage that I had seen.

14     And the next day they showed me some military unit that had come in from

15     Sarajevo, but I was not aware of that.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  I am informed that the word "meeting," page 10 line

18     4, not the correct word.  The word that the witness used is "encounter."

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  There is a difference, of course.  Do I

20     have a confirmation of that from someone, the interpreters in particular?

21     Page 10, line 4, in the transcript we have, "in the first meeting with

22     Mladic."  Mr. Gosnell is saying that the word used by the witness was

23     "the first encounter" between Mladic or with Mladic.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

25     repeat the word that he witness used.

Page 27277

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Could you please, Mr. Simic, repeat the word that

 2     you used?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my reply to which answer, if you

 4     could just specify that, because I leave this kind of thing behind me and

 5     now I have to revisit this.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Anyway, shall we move, Mr. Gosnell?

 7     All right.  Let's move.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, I just want to confirm, and this will be very brief, I

10     hope, that despite the fact that you tell us you were in Potocari for

11     several hours on the 12th witnessing the clamoring on to the buses.

12             Today, as you sit here, you are standing by your conclusions that

13     you saw no separations of family members, of male family members, you saw

14     no abuse, no beatings; is that correct?

15        A.   Absolutely.  I told you what I had seen, I repeated that several

16     times, and now I don't have the right to say things that are not correct.

17     I cannot change the way I see things.  I can see why you might think that

18     this is strange, but that's just the way it is.

19        Q.   Okay.  Yesterday, when you were being asked questions about this

20     encounter with someone that you -- someone later told you was Mr. Beara,

21     you said:

22             "I did not have any visual capabilities at all," and you talked

23     about the blood rushing to your eyes or something.  Can I take it your

24     visual capabilities for Potocari were okay?

25        A.   Probably at the beginning, yes.  But later, as I have the habit

Page 27278

 1     of saying I said my impressions of all of that began and then they

 2     intermingle the past, the present, and the future.  So I don't have any

 3     capabilities that somebody else in my place would have to notice what was

 4     going on.  I intermingled three tenses, so -- at the time so that image

 5     was not only visually shocking, but it meant to me the past that I had

 6     with those people; it wasn't bad.  And the present, the situation in

 7     which the people happened to be.  And what will happen in the future,

 8     after all of this.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Let me go on to a different subject, and that is you've

10     testified about Kravica at length, and the story you heard; and I want to

11     just again confirm that this is correct in your testimony, Blagojevic at

12     7629:

13             "I heard about that the following day.  Not the day when it

14     happened.  And the story that I heard, was that a policeman who was

15     guarding those people in the Oka; and I don't know how they came to be

16     there, whether they were brought or they had come on their own, that that

17     policeman was killed and then shooting started.  Or shooting ensued.  And

18     I heard about this from returning soldiers."

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honours, if you're following the

20     transcript, that is one of the adjusted parts of the last sentence.

21        Q.   Do you stand by that statement?

22        A.   Like this.  I will help you to understand this better --

23        Q.   Sir, I don't --

24        A.   -- so Mr. Nikolic in the morning --

25        Q.   I am just asking, you can explain it if you need to.  But are you

Page 27279

 1     standing by that testimony?  Yes or no, and you may explain your answer.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Now that my friend at the end has given permission

 4     to the witness to actually respond, I have no objection.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Let's proceed.  Mr. Simic.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Sir, do you stand by the statement, and you can always explain

 8     your answer.

 9        A.   I do stand by my statement, and I wish to explain what it means

10     and how all this came about.  After Nikolic's story that we heard in the

11     morning hours, in the course of the day the soldiers who were returning

12     from the lines or whatever they were, I don't know where they were

13     deployed; they were coming back from that direction of Kravica, and they

14     passed by Oka; and they were saying on the street already that something

15     had happened.  They had seen that they were killed in front of the Oka

16     and they wanted to see what had happened.  They were asking around if

17     anybody knew what had happened up there.

18             That is why I said -- that is why I was mentioning soldiers in

19     that sense, because they were sitting in buses, the buses were going,

20     they didn't stop there.  They saw through the windows of the buses

21     because Oka is not far from the main road that Kravica-Konjevic Polje

22     road or the Kravica-Bratunac road.

23        Q.   Okay.  So the story that you say you heard was that first a

24     policemen was killed by one of the Muslims, and then the people

25     responded; the Serbs responded and killed many of the Muslims.  That's

Page 27280

 1     the guts of the story, right?

 2        A.   That's the story that I heard, probably Nikolic heard it from

 3     somebody up there.  I don't know from whom.  And that is the story that

 4     we heard from him, and that's the only thing that we knew at that time.

 5     Up to now, I haven't heard anything new.

 6        Q.   Well, we now know, and I don't think there is an issue, that in

 7     fact a -- a Serbian MUP officer did burn his hands on a rifle that a

 8     Muslim had used to kill Serbian -- Serbian MUP and an army member.  And

 9     so I don't think that's contested, but what I want to ask you about is if

10     you heard this story in a little different way; and I want to show you a

11     brief clip of a video to emphasize my point and to help you remember what

12     you may have really heard.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that is Exhibit P02047.  It's just the short

14     Kravica clip.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Starting at 02.56.57.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  I would just like to know how the playing of video

19     clip is actually going to assist witness with what he heard.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps he should take off his headphones.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Simic, can you remove your headphones, please.

23     Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's the Prosecution's position that Mr. Simic

25     would have heard precisely what had gone on at the Kravica warehouse.  He

Page 27281

 1     would have heard accounts of what we now have on the video, and my point

 2     is directly related to what we see on the video.  And my question is

 3     exactly on point towards --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop.  Let's proceed.  Mr. Simic, can you put

 5     your headphones on again, please.  Okay.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Now, what this will be, sir, is Mr. Borovcanin has told us, which

 8     I don't believe is contested, that he is -- he is heard over the radio

 9     that a member of his unit -- or that there is a problem, and he goes

10     quickly to this area where the problem is; and he's got this guy with him

11     that's filming it.  And this guy, Petrovic, happens to film this little

12     section that we see at the time that Mr. Borovcanin arrives to this

13     horrible scene; and so you're going to see that film that Mr. Borovcanin

14     has rushed to this terrible scene.

15                           [Videotape played]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are not having any sound, Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am -- sometimes that happens with sanction.  I

18     hope we get sound, because it's important.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Exactly.  That's why I pointed it out.  It follows

20     what you just said from a couple of minutes ago.

21                           [Videotape played]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Nothing as yet.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have an ongoing problem with this particular

24     software.  It's haunting me.

25             Mr. President, I -- I don't want to waste anymore time.  I

Page 27282

 1     think -- I don't think that it's contested that we see this video.  It

 2     comes to one side of the warehouse, as it gets to the end of the

 3     warehouse, and right before it goes black you hear automatic weapon fire.

 4                           [Videotape played]

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, we are going to go back and do a slow motion

 6     and freeze it.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, this is the front of the Kravica warehouse.  It's not

 8     contested that those are bodies piled there.  That Mr. Borovcanin is

 9     arriving quickly to the scene of the warehouse.  And I can tell you that

10     there is evidence in this case that inside the warehouse there are many

11     hundreds of people; and it's the Prosecution's position that at this time

12     they're dead or disabled or dying.

13             Now, Mr. Borovcanin is arriving suddenly to the scene where one

14     of his officers has been wounded.  Wouldn't the story that you would have

15     heard, if it was the correct story of what happened, wouldn't it have

16     been Serbian armed forces began executing people, began shooting people

17     in this warehouse halfway through those executions when these men in

18     front of you are dead and dying; a Muslim comes out of the crowd, grabs a

19     gun, and shoots it.  And that's when Mr. Borovcanin gets the word to

20     come.

21             Isn't that the story you heard?  That this thing had been halfway

22     through before the Muslim grabbed the gun and killed the Serb?  Isn't

23     that the real story?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  There is something wrong.  I can hear him speaking

Page 27283

 1     but -- okay.  It's the microphone that got cut off.  Can you repeat,

 2     Mr. Simic, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the Prosecutor is saying is

 4     something that I'm hearing for the first time.  I didn't hear this story

 5     from anyone else.  I have no evidence or material that is available to

 6     the Prosecutor.  I cannot speculate on that.  I told you what I had

 7     heard.  I cannot say that I had heard something else or that I found out

 8     something else.  What the Prosecutor is saying now is something that I am

 9     hearing for the first time.  He probably has his own reasons why there is

10     this story, why it exists, if it exists.  I don't know anything about it.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Okay, we'll go on to some documents now and hopefully a little

13     less difficult topics.  In your testimony in Blagojevic you spent a fair

14     amount of time in 1992 and Morillon and other historical issues which I

15     don't want to get into in detail, but I do want to go back there a bit.

16             And you had told us that were the president of the municipal

17     assembly; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And were you in June of 1992 a member of the war commission?

20        A.   No, no.  I was not a member of any commission, or I don't have

21     any idea what sort of a commission this would be.

22        Q.   You weren't on it with Mr. Deronjic?

23        A.   On what?

24        Q.   I'm sorry, but you don't know about the creation of the war

25     commission?

Page 27284

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   All right.  Maybe it's a translation issue, and let's just go to

 3     the document and see if you can help us with it.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter 3837.  It's a document dated 16 June.

 5        Q.   And we have here pursuant to the decision of the presidency of

 6     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the establishment of War

 7     presidencies, and it goes on and talks about this war commission.  And

 8     there is five people, you're not listed there, but we do see that you

 9     signed this thing.  So you would have known about this, right?

10        A.   Yes, it's my signature.  I did sign it, but this was probably a

11     long time ago and I signed it -- I mean, I signed a lot of things and I

12     really cannot recall every single thing to which I put my signature.

13        Q.   Well, now that you see it I'm sure it brings back some issues.

14     This was a decision from the presidency.  That's -- we're talking, I

15     don't want to get into the presidency in 1992 but it certainly involved

16     Radovan Karadzic.

17        A.   May I give my comment?

18        Q.   Yes, please answer the question.

19        A.   It's possible that these members of the War Presidency, I don't

20     know how this exactly went, but I'm not familiar with it, but in case a

21     state of war is declared, then in a state of war the assembly would not

22     be functioning and then this war commission then or whatever it is would

23     be working.  At least that is what I believe.  I am not absolutely sure,

24     but I think that it was some sort of preparation so that we wouldn't be

25     taken by surprise if war broke out within the municipality with such a

Page 27285

 1     situation.  But I think the assembly was still functioning because I

 2     signed it, so this was a precautionary measure in case a state of war was

 3     declared, then the municipal institutions would be functioning in a

 4     different way.

 5        Q.   So now you do recall the establishment of this war commission?

 6        A.   I see that it is the 16th of June, 1992 here.

 7        Q.   So my question is -- so you now looking at this now remember the

 8     establishment of this war commission and your involvement?

 9        A.   I didn't participant.  I don't know how it was established.  This

10     was just brought to me for signature because as you can see in the

11     heading it's the Republika Srpska and not the municipal assembly.  This

12     is probably done by the republican commissioner who was signed on the

13     left side.  I was not in a position to establish a War Presidency,

14     neither did anybody authorise me to do that.  Perhaps the president did

15     this through his commissioner, and that commissioner signature is at the

16     bottom.

17        Q.   This refers to you as president of the Serbian municipality of

18     Bratunac.  It doesn't say president of the assembly.  Is this thing

19     right?

20        A.   Look, this -- you can see we were just wondering around in the

21     beginning, and in the heading it says, "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina, Serbian Municipality of Bratunac."  All these municipalities

23     had the same Srpska in their name to indicate -- I don't know their what.

24     I mean, it's wasn't even that clear to me why it's just the municipality

25     of Bratunac; but it's the Serbian municipality of Bratunac; it is some

Page 27286

 1     sort of decision of the Republican parliament or the government.  I don't

 2     know.  We received instructions to make stamps in that way, and that is

 3     what we did.  Our stamp bore that title.  I couldn't decide how the

 4     municipal stamp would look or what the assembly would be called.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'm not concerned that you're calling yourselves the Serbian

 6     this or the Serbian that.  I don't want to get into the nationalism that

 7     may or may not be behind that word.  That's not the word I am asking you

 8     about.  You said you're the assembly guy, this says that you're the

 9     president of the municipality.  Which is it?

10        A.   The president of the Serbian municipality.  This is correct that

11     I am the president of the assembly, and I said that in Bratunac up until

12     it will reforms of the local assembly, there was no chief nor was I any

13     kind of president in the sense that I was a chief or a mayor.  These

14     abbreviations of titles in speech frequently happened also in written

15     form.

16        Q.   So you're not on trial here.  We're trying to get an -- I'm

17     trying to get an idea of whether or not you are going to be able to tell

18     us credible information.  So that's why I am asking this.  You're not on

19     trial, but if you think you are going to say anything that may implicate

20     yourself, you don't have to talk; but let's go to the next document.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is a document 65 ter number 3813.

22        Q.   And I want to give a hard copy of this because it's kind of long.

23     And I'm really not interested in the substance of it, but I just want you

24     to help me with a couple of these titles that we seem to see.  This is

25     a -- we've seen this in Court before, I think with the last person.  This

Page 27287

 1     is a document dated August 27th of 1992, some sort of inspector named

 2     Sasa Blagojevic from the Serbian Ministry of the Interior from Sarajevo

 3     it looks like -- comes -- it looks like he's doing some sort of

 4     inspection on the police station.

 5             Your name gets mentioned in here, but what I want to ask you

 6     about is -- it's a reference it's on -- in your copy it's the last

 7     paragraph on page 2, in the English it's part of the last paragraph on

 8     page 2.  And it says:

 9             "After all these talks which were held at the Bratunac SJB, we

10     agreed on a meeting with representatives of the army and the municipal

11     government, which was attended by the president of the municipality

12     Ljubisav Simic; the chairman of the SDS party, Miroslav Deronjic; the war

13     commission, Tesic; on behalf of the municipality, Colonel

14     Dimitrije Sibanic; and Staff Sergeant Drago Nikolic on behalf of the

15     army; head or chief of the SJB Luka Bogdanovic; commander of the police

16     station, Ljubomir Borovcanin; deputy chief, Branimir Tesic; and head of

17     the criminal department, Budimir Lakicevic."

18             So just having that in mind let me just start with a couple of

19     other questions.  You said that in 1992 you were a member of the SDS

20     party, right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did the key figures in government in the police have to be

23     members of the SDS party in 1992?

24        A.   The police did not belong to any party, but it's a fact that the

25     parties that were in a majority in the assembly provided proposals for

Page 27288

 1     the posts of chief or commander.  They couldn't appoint either the chief

 2     or the commander but would their opinion on the candidate that would be

 3     proposed by the assembly or the SDS; and then that would be decided on at

 4     a higher level, ministerial level.  I mean, he could not have perhaps

 5     received support and somebody else would have been appointed instead; but

 6     they would provide their opinion on candidates.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And for example the chief of the SJB Luka Bogdanovic, was

 8     he a member of the SDS party in 1992?

 9        A.   No.  [No interpretation]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are not -- at least I waited a little bit, but

11     we are not receiving interpretation.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   Sorry, we not get the interpretation.  Let's try again --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you could start again, please.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   The question I asked was --

17        A.   I think -- I think that the microphone is not working again, ah,

18     all right.

19        Q.   So my question was -- if you could just start over.

20        A.   I think that as I already said and it wasn't heard that the

21     commander and the chief of police could not have been elected by anyone

22     at the municipal level, neither the party nor the municipal government or

23     the municipal assembly.

24             A proposal could be put forward which would be made by the

25     majority party in the parliament, they would pass that proposal for

Page 27289

 1     candidates probably to the ministry, I mean, I don't know I didn't

 2     directly take part in that.  Miroslav was the period of time of the party

 3     told know that better, and the proposal could have been either accepted

 4     or rejected.  Those people, as candidates were not members of the party,

 5     any party as far as I am aware.  They were never considered to be a

 6     candidate of our party or their party, but it would mean that perhaps our

 7     proposal would be accepted, would pass, or not.

 8        Q.   Sir, I am not asking whether they were a candidate of one party

 9     or a member of -- of some party organisational body.  I am just asking

10     are they a member of the party, you know, do they --

11        A.   As far as I know, the answer is no.  But the president may have

12     kept records of that, but I am not aware of any of them or either of them

13     being a member of the party.  Well, let me clarify this, I did not have

14     any function in the party.

15        Q.   But Bratunac is a small town, you're going to know who is a

16     member of the SDS and who isn't in 1992, right?

17        A.   Well, I know that we were all in favour of removing politics from

18     the army and the police.  That had been our objective right from the

19     start.  The army and the police were not there to be involved in politics

20     but to do their job.  I know that we all advocated that approach and this

21     is something that I welcomed right from the start, because I always was

22     bothered when I saw the army officers sit in the front row at the

23     assembly session, the police officers in the second row.

24        Q.   Well, I agree that you would be concerned that if

25     Ljubomir Borovcanin was a member of the SDS as a police officer or a

Page 27290

 1     chief of police you would be concerned that he may be acting in

 2     conformance with some of the goals of the SDS as opposed to some of his

 3     police jobs, correct?

 4        A.   Well, that's not something that would concern me because we

 5     didn't instruct him what to do.  He received his instructions from the

 6     ministry.  Even if he had been my brother, he would have had to do things

 7     not the way I tell them but in accordance with the laws and regulations

 8     of the service.

 9        Q.   All right.  Can you helps, looking in this document, just past

10     the part I read to you, it mentions at the meeting the SJB chief gave a

11     short overview of the activities that had happened in Bratunac; and then

12     it, which we know from this document was this guy, Luka Bogdanovic, and

13     then after that it says, "The commander of the police station proposed a

14     solution to the volunteer problem," et cetera, and we know that's

15     Ljubomir Borovcanin.  Can you tell us what's the difference between the

16     head of the SJB and the commander of the police station?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Excuse me, it may not be obvious to the witness

19     what time-period we are talking about.  So perhaps if that could be

20     specified in the question.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   The time-period in this document, 1992, 1993, time-frame.  And if

24     it changes, let us know.

25        A.   Fine.  I will tell you this, and I will have to disappoint you

Page 27291

 1     because quite frankly I don't know that.  I am a layperson, I don't know

 2     anything about the structure of the police.  I knew that there was a

 3     commander and there was a chief; and I thought the chief was superior to

 4     the commander, "komandir," and I thought the chief ordered the komandir

 5     how to organise work, what to do inside the police station; and I never

 6     walked into a police station before the war, during the war, after the

 7     war.  I only went there to get documents on official business, so I never

 8     really studied the internal structure; and I didn't think that it was my

 9     job to do that.

10        Q.   Sir, I don't need details on the internal structure, but the SJB

11     chief, is that the superior to the -- what the transcript --

12        A.   Komandir.

13        Q.   So we have the Bogdanovic is the superior of Borovcanin in 1992?

14        A.   I think it's a higher post than the komandir, that's all I can

15     tell you about that.

16        Q.   Sir, if you keep looking down this document, eventually this

17     inspector says what you say, and I'm not -- I don't think I need to read

18     it all but basically we can see that the president of the municipality,

19     Ljubisav Simic, pointed out there were a loft flaws regarding the

20     organisation of the three government levels on its territory, emphasizing

21     that also members of the security services were engaged in illegal

22     actions.  It goes on to talk about police admitting that in this matter

23     there are a lot done already and that the police should be engaged

24     especially in preventing -- so clearly, your job, you know all about the

25     police and the different government levels.  You're advising inspectors

Page 27292

 1     from Sarajevo about it, right?

 2        A.   I wasn't talking about the situation inside the police.  When I

 3     said "all three levels," I wanted to say that in every segment of the

 4     government there are people who do their job badly, and on the basis of

 5     my experience with the police work; for instance, when I went to work or

 6     went back home, and as I passed through the municipality I observed the

 7     policemen; and we could see that even for a long time after the war that

 8     there were some policemen who had not been trained to do their job

 9     properly.  And I always criticized that wherever I could whenever I could

10     I criticized that kind of behaviour.

11             And if this inspector had come in to hear my opinion, I felt that

12     it was incumbent upon me to say that.

13        Q.   Sir, do you know if Mr. Borovcanin was ever a member of the SDS

14     during his time in Bratunac in 1992, 1993, and 1994?

15        A.   I don't know that because I didn't look at the records of their

16     membership.  I wasn't interested in who was the member of the party.  I

17     joined the party because I was persuaded to do that, not out of any great

18     love for the party.  So I never really was interested in who was a

19     member, who became a member.  I knew about the members who were already

20     there, some of them, and I was not interested in who was joining the

21     party later.  And to this day, I don't know whether Borovcanin was a

22     member of the party.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   It shouldn't have been possible for him to have been one, but he

25     was then it's fine.

Page 27293

 1        Q.   Well, I think we can go on.  Did Mr. Borovcanin get promoted to

 2     the chief of the SJB?  Did he get Bogdanovic's job eventually?

 3        A.   I don't recall that.

 4        Q.   Do you recall whether military rule in Bratunac in December 1992?

 5        A.   Well, it's difficult for me.  There was talk about declaring a

 6     state of war often, and rumors were circulating in the army ranks that

 7     some kind of military rule would be established.  But as far as I can

 8     recall, the state of war was declared at the very end of the war.  So the

 9     army could not impose any kind of rule.  They were trying to do some

10     other things, they would mobilize people and call them up and just send

11     them to the front line, all of us, myself including; and then we would be

12     there for two or three days, and then we would all be allowed to go back.

13     They claimed that there was some kind of an imminent danger.  We were all

14     complaining about that, and Miroslav himself also presented those

15     problems that we faced through his chain of command.

16        Q.   Sir, were you part of a command for military rule in December

17     1992?

18        A.   I am not aware of any kind of military rule or command where I

19     would perform some kind of a task or role.

20        Q.   Were you a member of the military rule from the Bratunac

21     municipality?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter 3838 --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Would the witness please be asked to take his

Page 27294

 1     headphones off?

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Simic, can you remove your headphones,

 3     please.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Okay, Your Honour, this is an entirely fair line of

 5     questioning.  I would simply suggest that the wording used is a little

 6     bit ambiguous, and so I would object to the ambiguity; and if there is a

 7     precise organ or institution that's being referred to then that should be

 8     put to the witness first before there is a move to impeach him based on

 9     the document.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  I take it Mr. Gosnell finds

11     objection to the use of the term "military rule" and would like that be

12     to be clarified or to be more specific.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I'll show him a document that it says:

14             "After informing them about the situation, the command of the

15     military rule, headed by brigade commander is coordinator of all

16     activities in the municipality was established.  The following persons

17     are appointed to the command of military rule" --

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right, no, let's proceed.  At that point in

19     time if it's a phrase that has been used in a public document, we can

20     proceed.  And in any case, I was noticing that the witness had answered

21     the previous question making reference -- to which reference to military

22     rule was also made, and let's proceed.

23             Mr. Simic.

24             Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  I just want to clarify.  I apologise, could the

Page 27295

 1     witness please be asked to take the headphones off.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Simic, could you remove the headphones again,

 3     please.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  I do believe that I am informed that the there is a

 5     translation issue.  And that the word that's being used in the document

 6     that may not be a correct translation, at least into English --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  One moment, is he going to be shown the

 8     document in B/C/S?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, if they are not going to object -- we have

10     a standing objection, they don't like us reading the documents.  Yes, he

11     is, I have it here.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So there is no problem.  If he is going to

13     see a document in B/C/S there is no question of mistranslation.  So let's

14     proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

15             Mr. Simic.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Mr. Simic, we all hope we have a translation issue here and not a

18     perjury issue.  But let me show you the document I am talking about, and

19     maybe we can clear it up.  I have got a hard copy for you.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter 3838.

21        Q.   I am sure you can clarify this for us.  Maybe it will help

22     refresh your recollection.  Go ahead and take a little time to look at

23     it.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we get the -- well, I take it the Court has

25     the English.

Page 27296

 1        Q.   So take your time.  We see this.  It's from the Bratunac brigade

 2     command, dated 30 December 1992, to the Drina Corps command.  It makes

 3     reference to an order issued by the president of the Republika Srpska on

 4     29/12/1992, establishing of military rule in the Bratunac municipality.

 5             And it says:

 6             "After informing them about the situation, the command of the

 7     military rule, headed by the brigade commander as coordinator of all

 8     activities of the municipality, was established.  The following persons

 9     are appointed to the command of the military rule:  President of the

10     municipality, Simic, Ljubo; for assistance, Lieutenant-Colonel Kuljanin,

11     Ranko; for cooperation with the MUP, Major Savcic Milomir;

12     Second-Lieutenant Popovic, Jovo; Borovcanin, Ljubisa, commander of the

13     police; and others."

14             I will ask you again, sir.  Were you part of the command of the

15     military rule that was created in December 1992 in the Bratunac

16     municipality?  And you do not have to answer if you think it is going

17     incriminate you.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let me explain to you before you answer what

19     Mr. McCloskey is trying to tell you.  We have a rule here that if any

20     question is put to you which if truthfully answered by the witness could

21     possibly expose him -- expose you in this case to incrimination, then you

22     have a right to ask the Trial Chamber to exempt you from answering such a

23     question.  The Trial Chamber is free to exempt you or not to exempt you,

24     but if it forces you to answer the question, then whatever you say here,

25     provided you don't perjure yourself, cannot be made use of any criminal

Page 27297

 1     proceedings that I may be instituted against you.  I hope you have

 2     understood, if you need more explanation we are here precisely to do so.

 3     Otherwise, if you wish to answer the question, please proceed to answer

 4     it now.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   And Mr. Simic, let me just preference the question with context.

 7     December 12th, 1992, is just a week before Kravica Christmas.  We know

 8     that the forces of Naser Oric, the 20 -- well, the forces of Naser Oric

 9     whatever they were back then, had had significant gains, threatened

10     Bratunac, that Bratunac was in deep trouble; it needed help from Serbia,

11     you were in military rule.  So I am just asking you, sir, are you a

12     member of that military rule group to deal with this horrific situation?

13        A.   I don't recall that it occurred in this matter that it is

14     described in this document and the way you put it to me.  I remember that

15     the situation among the people was such and all the blame was shifted to

16     us in the municipality.  I don't know how we were able to do anything to

17     prevent this in Kravica and to calm down the people, because passions

18     were running high.  Then somebody used this situation as a pretext saying

19     that we --

20        Q.   Sir, sir --

21        A.   -- we were standing in the way of the army --

22        Q.   -- it was a simple question, do you now remember being in part of

23     the command of the military rule?

24        A.   I don't.

25        Q.   Was Ljubisa Borovcanin a member of the military --

Page 27298

 1        A.   You're [Realtime transcript read in error, "yes"] --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  He's answered it anyway, Mr. Gosnell.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, we've now been in 1992 for about an hour, I

 4     believe, and it's legitimate to inquire into matters concerning the

 5     credibility of the witnesses.  It's not legitimate if we're going into

 6     other matters, this is nowhere near the scope of the indictment, so I

 7     object on that ground.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  So I take it -- we are.  Let's proceed, let's

 9     proceed Mr. McCloskey, please.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I will remind counsel that his testimony is

11     full of 1992 which he put in evidence.  The Vuk Karadzic school --

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's proceed, let's proceed.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

14        Q.   I'm not sure I got an answer, do you know if Ljubisa Borovcanin

15     was a member of the military rule, then?

16        A.   Well, you could use this term every time when somebody from the

17     command invited us to come in the critical moments because they always

18     invited me, the president of the executive board, and somebody from the

19     police.  Because, of course, those structures, at critical moments,

20     demanded that a joint solution be found for any problems that existed in

21     in the area where we lived.  So that I think that for all intents and

22     purposes this was never implemented.  It was just a meeting where it was

23     decided what to do to calm down those people in Kravica who had been

24     through this calvary.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

Page 27299

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  There is a reference --

 2     a correction of the transcript that I think is essential to be made now.

 3     It's at line 10, page 31.  The witness apparently did not say "yes."

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  In mine it will be line 12 and not line 10.  So

 5     that needs to be attended to.  I don't think it's important at this

 6     stage.  You've just pointed it out, but the question was put again and

 7     answered later on.  So we don't have to worry about it.  Yes,

 8     Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   All right.  I will just go on if that's all right.  I can try to

11     clear that up or you can clear that up.  I would have doubted that he

12     would have said yes, myself.  But I think I will go on to the next

13     situation.

14             Now, sir, do you know if there was a no confidence vote against

15     Luka Bogdanovic by the SDS?  You've talked about this process of

16     recommending people.  Back in February of 1993?

17        A.   I remember that Luka Bogdanovic was invited to a session of the

18     assembly to notify the deputies about the situation in the municipality

19     and the deputies pose some questions.  He, I guess, was the chief at that

20     time; and the deputies were not happy with his answers, and I know that

21     this lack of confidence and dissatisfaction with his work was expressed

22     by the assembly.  And then I'm sure that the party, because it had the

23     majority, had to send this dissatisfaction and non-acceptance of the

24     report to the ministry or whoever was in charge of personnel decisions at

25     the level of the republic.

Page 27300

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, let's go to 65 ter number 210.

 2        Q.   And I hope not to spend too much time with this document, and

 3     it's minutes from the Bratunac SDS municipal board held on 1 February

 4     1993.  Did you go to the SDS -- were you part of the SDS municipal board?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And were part of the SDS main board?

 7        A.   No, no.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Well, hopefully we can just take a look at this, the

 9     minutes, the part I am talking about is page 20 in the B/C/S, and it's

10     also page 20 in the English.  And it -- let me know if you remember this

11     happening.  You see these three numbered paragraphs on this page -- in

12     fact, let me give you a hard copy because this -- the machine is hard

13     sometimes.

14             But it says here in one that there was "A no confidence vote in

15     the chief of the public security service was carried out by the main

16     board with 18 votes against and three restrained ..." and that basically

17     they wanted to take measures to replace Luka Bogdanovic, and the main

18     board nominated Ljubisa Borovcanin, who currently works as the commander

19     of the ... do you remember that?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell?

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, it's clear we're not now dealing

22     with impeachment.  I renew my previous objection.  We are outside the

23     scope of the indictment by a long way.  There is no material facts coming

24     close to this subject matter, so question object to these questions.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

Page 27301

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The documents that he has in evidence go into

 2     1992, the person's position, his description, he talks about the Vuk

 3     Karadzic school incident of 1992, the shipping out of people in 1992.

 4     Mr. Ostojic went into quite a ways of who was a member of the SDS and who

 5     was not.  These issues are so far open, and they are important issues

 6     that I think the Court needs to hear.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  What's the relevance of the question?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He has earlier testified he doesn't remember

 9     whether or not Mr. Borovcanin was replaced Luka Bogdanovic and now here's

10     a document to refresh his recollection or impeach him.  Given his

11     testimony it could be either one.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  It's a legitimate question.  Mr. Simic,

13     if you could answer the question, and then we'll go to break.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as you can see the main board

15     at the republican level was in charge of personnel issues not at the

16     municipal level.  And this initiative on the part of the assembly was

17     then taken to that level and the decision was made there.  As far as I

18     can recall, Luka left to some post in Zvornik after that.  And now

19     whether Borovcanin was the chief or not, I don't know, because believe me

20     it was not my task, and I didn't like to deal with that.  This was

21     Deronjic's task to deal with the personnel issues.  It was not in my

22     jurisdiction.  He was the president of the party, president of the

23     deputies club, and this was his job.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We have to stop here.  The break will

25     be of 20 minutes, not the usual 25, and during the next session I will be

Page 27302

 1     absent because I have an urgent bureau meeting, so we will be sitting

 2     pursuant to Rule 15 bis.  I'll join you later.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, we have a preliminary.  It concerns

 8     some elements of the cross-examination that has just taken place.  I

 9     understand that some of the propositions that have been put forward by

10     the Prosecution are new.  They hadn't previously been part of the

11     Prosecution case, and I believe that we are entitled to ask what the

12     Prosecution position is in respect of these particular elements.

13             And I would like to now tell you what the three elements are.

14     First, we would like to know whether it is the Prosecution's position

15     whether Mr. Borovcanin was the chief of police, the chief of the SJB, in

16     Bratunac at any time.

17             Second, we would like to know if it's Prosecution position that

18     he was a member of the SDS at any time.

19             And third, we would like to know whether the Prosecution is

20     alleging that he had any duties in Bratunac before August 1992.

21             All three of these matters were raised or put forward as

22     propositions by the Prosecution, and we believe we are entitled to know

23     what their position is on these matters.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, regarding number 1, whether or not

Page 27303

 1     Mr. Borovcanin was the chief of the SJB, I have been trying to sort that

 2     out with this witness based on his testimony; the testimony that's in

 3     evidence, some of the documents we have.  And perhaps at the end of his

 4     cross-examination, we will know more.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So meaning that you are -- you don't have that --

 6     you don't have your case in relation to that point.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All I've seen so far in the documents is the SDS

 8     wants to dump Bogdanovic and replace him with Borovcanin.  I don't have

 9     any documents showing that that replacement happened right now.  I think

10     this man knows; I don't know if he will tell us, and I think they know.

11     But this is all coming up in response to these witnesses, and, frankly,

12     the opening statement.  When they get up and say that Borovcanin comes

13     into Srebrenica on 11 July as a guy that doesn't know anything about what

14     happened before that, and to me this is a fairly outrageous part of their

15     Defence.  And so we are responding through their witnesses to that and to

16     the documents and to the issues that are brought up, the SDS, the

17     memberships, the police --

18             JUDGE KWON:  If you could keep your answer just to the --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, he's asking the position of the

20     Prosecution --

21             JUDGE KWON:  What about the second point?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  A member of the SDS, I have documents that show

23     he is a member of the SDS and that this person is involved and that's

24     coming.

25             And where he was -- what he was doing in August of 1992, I have

Page 27304

 1     my suspicions but I don't know.  At this point I don't know.  Does that

 2     help?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gosnell.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  That wasn't the question.  The third point was,

 5     whether he had any duties, responsibilities, in Bratunac before August

 6     1992.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Same answer.  I don't know.  We may find out

 8     if -- through these witnesses these folks that know all about 1992 and

 9     get asked about 1992.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gosnell.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, Mr. President, I really don't think this is

12     proper then.  Essentially what we have is a fishing expedition in case

13     the Prosecution doesn't have a case on these points.  They are just

14     fishing around trying to find something prejudicial.  It's not within the

15     scope of the indictment; it's not within the scope of the pre-trial

16     brief.  I think that these matters are out of bounds.  Actually, we do

17     know that all three of these allegation are unfound, that's the important

18     position.  But the more important point is that these matters are beyond

19     the scope of the indictment, they are beyond the scope of the Prosecution

20     indication, and essentially they are muck raking, and we don't think it's

21     proper.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Does it not arise from the questions and answers and

23     contents of the documents spontaneously?  Can you not think in that way.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, Mr. President, as I tried to make a record,

25     we don't object to the questions on credibility that go back to that

Page 27305

 1     time-period, but we do object to the questions that are being put in

 2     order to incriminate Mr. Borovcanin from that time-period.  So I believe

 3     our position is consistent on that.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- thank you.  Just a minute.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can I respond to that last one very previously?

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This cross-examination has been specifically

 9     organised so that it would respond to what was brought up by the Defence.

10     When they offered in his testimony from the other trial where he's

11     talking about 1992, about Morillon, the Vuk Karadzic school; and then we

12     go in -- Mr. Ostojic goes into, you know, who is a member of the SDS, who

13     is not.  The first few questions of this witness which were absolutely

14     appropriate and fair have led to these other issues which are in response

15     to the issues prosecute up by the Defence.  This is an organised

16     cross-examination based on the evidence that is before us and what the

17     Defence has done.  This is not a fishing expedition.  They have asked me,

18     generally, about issues not really related to the cross-examination.

19             Before August 1992?  I haven't gotten into that.  I don't know

20     where that comes from.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is of the view that the issues relating

24     to 1992 were brought up by the Defence in direct, and in cross by the

25     Defence, so the Chamber will allow the Prosecution to continue.  But we

Page 27306

 1     are not sure how relevant they are, so if you could proceed in a more

 2     expeditious way.  Having said that, could we bring in the witness.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Mr. Simic, do you remember in January 1994 that

 7     Ljubisa Borovcanin indicated his desire to join the SDS board?

 8        A.   I am not aware of that.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 210.  And B/C/S, I see it's

10     page 37.  I've got the handwritten minutes of the meeting that may be

11     able to be helpful for the witness.  English, I think it's page 41, and

12     B/C/S is first part is page 37.

13        Q.   Sir, these are minutes, handwritten minutes, as you can see, from

14     the meeting of the Bratunac SDS to the Serbian Lands Municipal Board held

15     on 18th January, 1994 at the Hotel Fontana.  You've told us that you were

16     a member of that board.

17             And if we go down, under, well, it's on the bottom of the first

18     page in English.  It starts off under number 1:  "The president, Miroslav

19     Deronjic, presented material from the main board ..." and it goes on for

20     a while.

21             And then the part I want to show you, and it's underlined,

22     Miroslav.  It says:

23             "Consultations with certain people are already taken place

24     regarding their joining the board, and those people have accepted

25     membership.  So far the following people have stated that they would want

Page 27307

 1     to join the SDS board:  Petar Loncarevic, Veljko Malesic" --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  What's the page for B/C/S?

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's either page 37 or 38 in the B/C/S.  I'm not

 4     exactly sure.  If you can find the Miroslav ...

 5             JUDGE KWON:  All right.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry.

 7        Q.   "... so that the people that want to join the SDS:  Loncarevic,

 8     Malesic, Ljubisa Borovcanin, Slobodan Ilic.  Talks remain to be held with

 9     ..." and then it lists some other folks.

10             So you were a member of the board back then, do you remember

11     this?  Does this help refresh your recollection?

12        A.   You say this is 1994, is it?

13        Q.   The minutes say that this meeting happened in 18 January 1994 at

14     the Hotel Fontana.

15        A.   I really must say that I don't remember this.  I don't deny it

16     happening, but I really don't recall it.

17        Q.   So these -- these minutes look genuine to you?

18        A.   Well, I would say this is Miroslav's handwriting.

19        Q.   So they look genuine to you?

20        A.   Well, the document is still in handwriting, so I couldn't really

21     say.  And probably later it was sent for typing and certification.  This

22     is done in some kind of notebook.  It's probably a draft minutes.

23        Q.   Well, did you know that Miroslav Deronjic was -- or someone was

24     taking notes like this for the SDS municipal board meetings?

25        A.   He would do it for himself.  As presiding, he had to make some

Page 27308

 1     sort of sketch or improvise minutes for himself so that he could conduct

 2     the meeting in a sequential way.  There was also a minute-taker who was

 3     the minute-taker of the meeting.

 4        Q.   Do you recognise the handwriting?

 5        A.   I would say that it's Deronjic's.  I am not sure.  I think that

 6     is how he writes.  If I would be able to get something about which you

 7     are sure that is his or that I am sure that it is his, then I could

 8     compare that and then I could be sure.  Like this, it's difficult to be

 9     sure.

10        Q.   It says the minutes are taken by Mirna Nikolic.  Is that the

11     person you are talking about that takes the minutes?

12        A.   It's possible that she was the minute taker.  I think she was the

13     secretary of the SDS and that she was the one to take the minutes at

14     these meetings; but if she happened to be absent then somebody from those

15     present would be entrusted with taking the minutes.

16        Q.   And who's Mirna's husband?

17        A.   I don't know him.  I know that she got married, but I don't know

18     the man.

19        Q.   It's not Momir Nikolic?

20        A.   Her husband?

21        Q.   Yes.  I mean, I don't know, I don't have a clue.  You're the

22     Bratunac expert.

23        A.   Well, maybe if it's the second wife of Momir Nikolic.  As far as

24     I know, he was married; and he worked at the school together with me for

25     a while and he had a wife and children.  Mean, if this is his second

Page 27309

 1     marriage then, I don't know.

 2        Q.   That's one subject I don't need to get into.  Let's go now to see

 3     what happens, we've got February 1994 minutes.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's 65 ter 210, page 45 in the English, page

 5     40 in the B/C/S.  This one is another handwritten one.

 6        Q.   Let me give you that just so that you've got that one too.  Try

 7     not to get them mixed up.

 8             This one begins as we see in the -- from the Bratunac SDS board

 9     meeting held on 17 February 1994, (Thursday), in the small hall of the

10     people's university with the beginning at 1600 hours:

11             "Out of the 37 board members attended the meeting, also present

12     were the members who need to enter the board, Ljubisa Borovcanin,

13     Petar Loncarevic, Nedjo Milanovic."  Do you remember that looks like the

14     first time that Ljubisa Borovcanin actually came to a meeting?

15        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't remember those present but it's

16     possible.  Members who were being admitted.  Now, the procedure before

17     that, again I am talking about work that I was not carrying out, so I

18     cannot speak in anymore detail about that.  But I know that the practice

19     was that a candidate that was being put up should come to the board so

20     that the other members would be persuaded that really is their wish.

21        Q.   Does this look like the same handwriting that you saw before?

22        A.   Yes, it's the same handwriting.

23        Q.   So you think it's Miroslav's handwriting, not Mirna's?

24        A.   I am not sure, but since I am reading it easily and in this part

25     I was able to read Miroslav's handwriting without any difficulty.  On the

Page 27310

 1     basis of that, I think that it could have been his, perhaps it's Mirna's.

 2     I never certified her minutes or read them, so I am not familiar with her

 3     handwriting.

 4        Q.   All right.  Well, you should look on page 40 of the Serbian --

 5     page 46, it says Miroslav underlined again.  And the English says:

 6             "For the co-opt of the new board members, he nominates

 7     Radisa Jovanovic, Fakovici local board; Stojan Ilic, Bjelovac local

 8     board; Nedje Mladenovic, local board, Repovac; Ljubisa Borovcanin; Petar

 9     Loncarevic; Slobodan Ilic; Nedjo Milanovic; and Momo Peric."

10             So is this the Ljubisa Borovcanin -- sorry, I'm almost done by

11     the way.

12             Is Ljubisa Borovcanin in the minutes of this SDS meeting the same

13     Ljubisa Borovcanin that is in court today?

14        A.   Well, I don't know two people that have that same name in

15     Bratunac.  I don't know of another Ljubisa Borovcanin other than this

16     one.

17        Q.   So what's the answer to my question?

18        A.   And then these are the minutes who was invited to the municipal

19     board, but this, about these names that you read, it seems to me that

20     things like this in the SDS were present in 1995.  As for 1994, it's not

21     quite right to me.  And this is why I believe that because elections were

22     coming up.  And probably the party was getting ready for the election,

23     and it was looking for new members and wanted to know what cadre and what

24     membership it could count on.  I see that it is 1994 here and activities

25     of the party from 1994 to this extent that these were preparations then;

Page 27311

 1     although, it was possible.  I don't have that in my memory, but I know

 2     that more extensive activities in 1995/1996 were conducted to register

 3     membership and new parties, beginning to be formed and the party had to

 4     know some members of ours that had entered the assembly had transferred

 5     to other parties and then we had to make a record once again of who

 6     actually was a member and who was not.  That is what I know about those

 7     activities.

 8             Well, roughly, because I did not conduct the immediate party

 9     policy.  This was something that was done by Mr. Deronjic and that was

10     his more important part of the job.

11        Q.   So these minutes support the conclusion that on 17th February,

12     1994, Ljubisa Borovcanin and the same Borovcanin in this courtroom was

13     elected as a member to the SDS?

14        A.   I don't know, I really don't know.  Looking in these minutes I am

15     seeing for the first time that Ljubisa Borovcanin was invited to the

16     board that he was proposed.  I didn't read to the end whether he was

17     voted in, did he become a member of the SDS.  I didn't hear that as a

18     sensational item of news, so that I would be able to recall it

19     subsequently.

20        Q.   Well, I am just asking you the to look at this document.  It says

21     that --

22        A.   Yes, it says here on the 17th of February, 1994.  I don't recall

23     meetings like that; it's possible that they did take place but I have no

24     memory.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 27312

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honour, you can't get water from a stone.  The

 2     witness has answered the question, and the document speaks for itself.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  For you enough.  Let's move on.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am sure that they wouldn't have called a stone

 5     to the witness stand.  I will read it if I have to --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on, Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The part I didn't read, if that's okay,

 8     Mr. President --

 9        Q.   Where it says that:  "Miroslav's nomination was unanimously

10     adopted."  Doesn't that mean he was a member of the SDS.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Gosnell.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection, the witness has indicated he doesn't

13     have any additional knowledge about these -- he's indicate his state of

14     knowledge, which is he doesn't remember this and all other inferences are

15     based on the document which we can all read.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's not my question.  My question is does this

17     document indicate that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Because witness said that he didn't read to the end,

19     so I will allow the question.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That was -- thank you, Mr. President that was my

21     point.

22        Q.   I am now reading it to the end, you are reading it to the end; it

23     says, "Miroslav's nomination was unanimously adopted."  Doesn't that mean

24     that Borovcanin is now a member of the SDS?

25        A.   On the basis of what I know, it should have been voted on; and it

Page 27313

 1     should have been confirmed at the municipal board.  I don't know if this

 2     had to be revised by the main board afterwards or reviewed by the main

 3     board.  I said that this was not the job that I was usually doing, and I

 4     did not enter the infrastructure of the party in order to remember this

 5     as something -- as some important event.  It was not an event for me.  It

 6     could have been an event as far as Miroslav was concerned, because he was

 7     the one who took care of the party about the quality, composition of the

 8     membership in the party, et cetera, et cetera.

 9        Q.   Okay, one more question about this and I'll go on and not this

10     subject.  Did -- at the time of this document, February 1994, if

11     Mr. Borovcanin is the commander of the police of Bratunac, would he have

12     been required by the political situation by the realities at the time?

13     Would he have been required to be a member of the SDS?

14        A.   I state with full responsibility no.  Ljubisa Borovcanin would

15     not have been more or less capable of doing the job that he was already

16     performing had that been the case.  But look, this is 1994.

17     Ljubisa Borovcanin, according to my knowledge, left Bratunac -- I don't

18     know whether it was in 1993.  He led some sort of special police unit and

19     probably his status was not the same.  I believe that Miroslav had made

20     inquiries about that.  Again, I said that I was not able to do that, that

21     was his job.  If he, as commander of some sort of special unit that did

22     not have the status of a policeman, did have or didn't have, I am

23     guessing now.  Perhaps the best thing would be for me to stop speculating

24     now.

25        Q.   Good idea.  So if we can conclude then if he was not required to

Page 27314

 1     be a member of the SDS in 1994, that if he was a member in 1994, he did

 2     it on his own volition.  Fair enough?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on, Mr. McCloskey -- no, no.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps he ... I would like to so

 5     that it's clearer to the gentleman.  I don't want to deny him.  I think

 6     that it's possible that Mr. Borovcanin planned to withdraw from the

 7     police and that he could be counted on as a man who could be assigned to

 8     one of the positions.  Perhaps that could be the reason for you to

 9     understand more easily why Ljubisa Borovcanin expressed a desire to enter

10     the SDS so that he could become the SDS cadre.  But this had nothing to

11     do with the police functions.  With that he could perhaps later be

12     assigned or appointed to some civilian function.  I think, perhaps, it is

13     clearer to you now so why he is appearing in these minutes from 1994.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, let's go to another document.  It may clear

15     up some of these things.  65 ter 3840.

16        Q.   Were you able to go to the Bratunac Brigade command and get into

17     the gate without having to go through all the normal ID hassles and

18     things?

19        A.   No, I wasn't able to.  I had to stop at the gate or the reception

20     area where the officer on duty was.  I don't know exactly what their name

21     was, but it was a soldier.  I had to give my ID card.  I had to be

22     searched to show that I wasn't carrying any hard materials.

23        Q.   But did they have your name at the gate so that when you showed

24     up they would treat you accordingly to your position that you deserved?

25        A.   Probably they had the name, but they checked.  Not all the people

Page 27315

 1     who were there knew me.  I mean, think changed shift.  They couldn't all

 2     know me, especially because in Bratunac from 1992 onwards the structure

 3     of the population changed and the indigent population quickly became the

 4     minority population.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Well let's just take a brief look at this document which

 6     is dated 20 January 1994.  And it's an army document from the commander

 7     at the time, Slavko Ognjenovic.  It's entitled, Regulation for the

 8     crossing, the reception of the command of the specified persons.  It just

 9     says:  "The duty officers with the reception of the brigade will without

10     further delay in the brigade command permit crossing of the following

11     persons."  Miroslav Deronjic and Ljubisav Simic are the first two people.

12             We go down it a ways we see some familiar names, Jovan Nikolic,

13     Luka Bogdanovic, who is the chief of the MUP at that time; and now we see

14     Ljubisa Borovcanin, commander of the MUP.  So do you remember now?  Does

15     this help refresh your recollection that unlike what you've just said

16     about when he might have left that Ljubisa Borovcanin was in fact the

17     commander of the MUP on January 20th, 1994 was still around?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just is a second.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very difficult to intervene.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for reminding me.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gosnell.  Now, your objection will be moot.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honour, I must say there might be a

24     translation issue.  I just want to make sure we are using the right

25     terminology and distinguishing between number "7" and number "8."  That's

Page 27316

 1     the only comment I would like to make in respect to that last question.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think the witness has tried his best to explain

 3     all this --

 4             JUDGE KWON yes.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- and I don't think there is anything more that

 6     we need to do.

 7        Q.   Mr. Borovcanin told us that he, I believe, left in February of

 8     1994.  Does that seem to make more sense to you than what you said

 9     earlier?

10        A.   I didn't understand you quite clearly.  Could you please simplify

11     your question?

12        Q.   Well, in looking at this document and its date --

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   -- and taking it as a truthful statement that Mr. Borovcanin told

15     the Office of the Prosecutor that he left in February -- February 24,

16     1924 [sic] -- February 24th, 1994, does that help refresh your

17     recollection about when he was there?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Does that sound about right to you, from your recollection?

20        A.   No, really, even when I said it I never asserted that I knew when

21     he left.  I noticed later that he wasn't in Bratunac and that I -- and I

22     heard that he had went to take up some other duties, I think in

23     Bijeljina.  As for these dates here, they probably confirm that; but

24     still the explanation that I got earlier is that it's possible that

25     Ljubisa Borovcanin was planning to leave the police and to wait for some

Page 27317

 1     kind of solution to change his profession, and you can ask him that.  I,

 2     myself, didn't ask him that.  And as I said, he wasn't within my area of

 3     sight.

 4             As some member who would come to the SDS, I know definitely that

 5     if he had joined the SDS he would have had to be relieved of his duties

 6     in the police.  He would have had to do that today.  Had he become

 7     officially a member then he should have said -- or he would need to say I

 8     am no longer working in the police, please find some other solution.  I

 9     mean -- but this is something that he would have needed to discuss with

10     Deronjic.  I don't know what I discussed with Deronjic.  He definitely

11     did not discuss anything on that subject with me.

12        Q.   So he was close to Deronjic, Borovcanin?

13        A.   Well, I don't know whether he was close or not.  If he wanted to

14     join the party and change his job, then he had to approach him and talk

15     to him.

16        Q.   Okay, just one last short area and a few questions.  You, in your

17     Blagojevic testimony, you talked a fair amount about the events of 1993,

18     General Morillon.  I don't want to get into a lot of that but just a

19     couple of questions on that.  Can you confirm that there were evacuations

20     of -- of Muslim refugees from the Srebrenica area in - I think it was -

21     March, April, 1993?

22        A.   I am sure that there were.  I am absolutely sure that there were,

23     because as I have already said General Morillon told me that at the

24     Serbian side, in Serbia, at the customs.  And I could see the convoy pass

25     by from the window of the municipal building.  I didn't go out, I just

Page 27318

 1     saw the column of vehicles.  The reason why I didn't go out -- or,

 2     rather, the reason why I looked out was there was a noise, vehicles

 3     passing by.  That's what I heard, the vehicles passing by.  We asked

 4     ourselves, What's happening?  We looked out and we saw a convoy of UNHCR

 5     trucks with the white -- and nobody notified us officially that it would

 6     take place, but we saw it from the wind I.

 7             Nobody told us that Morillon had agreed with somebody from the

 8     army that a certain number of persons would be evacuated from Srebrenica,

 9     and then when we saw the trucks we realised that this was, in fact, going

10     on.

11        Q.   Well, and as I've said you talked a fair amount about that.  I

12     don't want to get into that details too much.  But in a state -- in your

13     state court testimony, in Mitrovic et al, you were asked a question by

14     one of the Defence counsel to make a comparison between the evacuation of

15     the civilians in 1993 that you witnessed and the evacuation of the

16     civilians in 1995 that you witnessed.  Can you do that for us?

17        A.   Well, then and now, and at any other point in time, I can always

18     just tell you the same thing.  As far as my memory serves me, I heard

19     from Morillon that there was a great deal of interest, that the trucks

20     were overloaded; and that he found it difficult to control.  It was the

21     impossible to control the people getting onto the trucks, that people

22     spent nights to the truck in order to keep their place to leave in the

23     morning, and that in light of this interest he tried to set up another

24     convoy to take more people out.  But that our command, or the army at a

25     higher level, did not approve if.  And he, in fact, complained to me

Page 27319

 1     about that when we talked at the bridge.

 2        Q.   All right.  I think the lawyer in this case is suggesting that

 3     there was nothing wrong in the 1993 evacuation and that there was nothing

 4     wrong in the 1995 evacuation.  Is that your view in terms of force and

 5     pushing and threats and that sort of thing and fear?

 6        A.   Well, people were jostling for position to get onto the trucks.

 7     There was even a rumor that the authorities in Srebrenica were trying to

 8     prevent people from getting on and that there were fights, fist-cuffs and

 9     that with tragic consequences that the trucks were overloaded.  I am just

10     telling you what I heard.  I don't know the dates.  But this is quite

11     unsubstantiated but, but I heard that some people died of affixation or

12     because they were ill, but this is just rumor.  Just speculation.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Having heard the witness's answer, we can move on.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honour, it's a transcript correction which I

15     think should be there now.  Page 52, line 7, that the "military

16     authorities," that word was missing.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, for that.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   I would like to show you a short video clip on that topic, very

20     short.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 3841, excuse me.  And this is a short clip

22     from the BBC that has been identified to us as being this evacuation.

23     Just a small segment of it.

24        Q.   So just watch this if you could --

25                           [Videotape played]

Page 27320

 1             "Reporter:  In trying to do what it thinks best for the people of

 2     Srebrenica, the UN has spent more time planning, looking around, being

 3     turned back and forth constantly by both sides than actually moving

 4     refugees out.  It believes that the population of the besieged town

 5     should be reduced.  Particularly those who are already refugees.  The

 6     thousands who have no real accommodation or support in the town.  And on

 7     this basis, the high commissioner for refugees special envoy denies being

 8     involved with the policy of ethnic cleansing.

 9             "Interviewee:  The people we are evacuating from Srebrenica have

10     already been ethnically cleansed because they are coming from areas

11     of --"

12             JUDGE KWON:  Can we stop.  I am not sure whether the witness is

13     hearing the interpretation.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear the interpretation.

15     There was no interpretation.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  There was no transcript into B/C/S as

17     transcripts have not been provided to the interpretation booths.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gosnell.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  And that's an important point, Mr. President.  The

20     images themselves, I think, are undisputedably admissible.  I believe

21     narrative may not be admissible.  So it might be best, actually, if the

22     witness doesn't hear the translation.

23             JUDGE KWON:  It's rather a procedural matter than the

24     admissibility itself, but whether the witness can answer the question

25     without having heard the --

Page 27321

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I think the English overlay helps

 2     put this in contest for the Court.  It's nothing that I am asking the

 3     witness about.  I just want to see the pictures.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  So can we move -- can we move on without the audio?

 5     It's difficult.  Okay.  Let's move on.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We should be able to, actually.  We did it in the

 7     last one.  If we put -- I think we know what went wrong.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  How long would you like to stay in 1993, 1994?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is a fraction of the time in the record,

10     Mr. President, and this is my last one or two questions, and it's going

11     to be well below my two-hour estimate.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Actually, Mr. President, I think we are above the

14     two hours now, but I stand to be corrected.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  1 hour and 40 minutes.  If we could try to play

17     this thing.

18                           [Videotape played]

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Okay.  I am not asking you about those -- those military

21     vehicles.  Do those shots of refugees look like what it was in 1993?

22        A.   Well, that's precisely how Morillon described the situation in

23     Srebrenica to me.  And I can see now, this is the first time that I see

24     this footage.  I think that he created the same picture in my mind when

25     he told me what this looked like about trying to get a place in the

Page 27322

 1     trucks and that the trucks were overloaded and that he could have taken

 2     several such convoys out had the military authorities in the town

 3     permitted him to do so.

 4        Q.   So you've stated that you heard the rumors about people dying on

 5     these convoys, and you said these are just rumors.  You don't leave them,

 6     I take it?

 7        A.   Well, it's possible because you can see that the trucks were

 8     overloaded and that people of ill-health might have died because of

 9     stress or cold having spent the whole night there, for instance.  You

10     know that in Bratunac there was a strange death 20 days ago or so in

11     ideal conditions at a wedding.  So it is to be expected that something

12     like that my occur in a situation like this.  I don't think that anyone

13     killed someone else, but people were getting on without any health checks

14     or anything; so those who were ill may have needed medical assistance a

15     long time ago and they were unable to deal with the difficult situation

16     because of the cold and the road to Tuzla is very bad, in particular from

17     the Ljubovija bridge to Drinjaca.  That's a macadam road, and I think

18     that they took that route.

19        Q.   Okay.  So when this happened, in 1993, Ljubisa Borovcanin the

20     accused in this case was the commander of the police station in Bratunac,

21     wasn't he?

22        A.   I guess so.  According to the documents that's what he should

23     have been.

24        Q.   Sir, you were there.  Give us a straight answer, please.  Was or

25     was he not the commander of the police at this time?

Page 27323

 1        A.   Where do you think I was, in Bratunac?  Yes.  I was, and I do

 2     believe that Ljubisa Borovcanin was the police komandir.  Please, believe

 3     me, I never was interested in those things, who was the komandir, who was

 4     the chief, all I was interested in was the policemen, their work.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I don't have any further questions.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  Mr. Gosnell.  Unlike

 7     usual sitting, we will take a break at five past 12.00 today, and we will

 8     have a half an hour break.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I will do my best to be done by

10     then, but I can't make any guarantees.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

12        Q.   Mr. Simic, you've testified that you don't remember precisely

13     when it was that Mr. Borovcanin left Bratunac to take up a position

14     elsewhere.

15        A.   I don't recall that.

16        Q.   But let me ask you, do you recall -- was it during the year 1994?

17        A.   Well, you have to believe me.  In my first testimony here, I said

18     that the dates were my weak point, and I am completely unreliable when it

19     comes to dates.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P2857, please.

21             JUDGE KWON:  PT?

22             MR. GOSNELL:  P2857.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please enlarge this

24     because it's not really legible.  Fine now.

25             MR. GOSNELL:

Page 27324

 1        Q.   Let me know when you have finished reading the document, sir.

 2        A.   Yes, I've read it.

 3        Q.   Now, would it accord with the recollection that you do have,

 4     would it be consistent with whatever recollection that you do have, that

 5     Mr. Borovcanin would have left to take up his responsibilities elsewhere

 6     around this date?

 7        A.   All I recall is that Ljubisa Borovcanin left, but I really can't

 8     be certain at all.  I told you that I had problems with numbers and I

 9     cannot guarantee that this is when it happened.  I merely heard that I --

10     I merely remember that I heard somebody tell me that Ljubisa Borovcanin

11     went away to take up some other post, so I can't really sit here and say

12     this is when it happened.  I can't be certain it was 1994.

13             I'm sorry that I can't help you about the dates and the years.

14        Q.   And this would have been one week of the minutes of the meeting

15     at which the Prosecution suggested that Mr. Borovcanin became a member of

16     the SDS; isn't that right?

17        A.   That's what follows from the documents that we looked at.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P3840 brought up, please.

19        Q.   You've already been shown this document, sir.  And I point to you

20     again to item 7 -- 7 and 8.

21             Now, you recall you were shown some minutes at an earlier time by

22     the Prosecutor, those minutes were dated the 10th of February, 1993,

23     concerning a proposal for Mr. Borovcanin to become chief of the SJB.

24     Now, again that was back on the 10th of February, 1993.  Looking at this

25     document, you can see that Mr. Bogdanovic continues to be the chief of

Page 27325

 1     the Bratunac MUP and that Mr. Borovcanin is the komandir; isn't that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  I remember that this initiative of ours of the

 4     municipality -- municipal assembly and the board from Bratunac did not

 5     bear fruit and that Luka Bogdanovic remained there for longer than we

 6     expected at that post.

 7        Q.   So this would confirm your recollection of the matter?

 8        A.   I do remember that and that's why I said that our decision may be

 9     taken into account, but it doesn't have to necessarily.

10        Q.   All right, sir.  Thank you.  Would you please read paragraph 2 of

11     this document.

12        A.   "The above mentioned persons ..." that part?

13        Q.   Yes, sir.

14        A.   I've read it.

15             JUDGE KWON:  If you could read aloud?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The above mentioned persons are

17     obliged to report to the duty officer at the reception, inform him who

18     they want to see in the command, and ask whether that command member is

19     present in the command, or the headquarters, and if that command member

20     is not present in the headquarters they must say what other person they

21     want to see, and if that person is not there there is no need for the

22     above-mentioned persons to enter the command -- the headquarters at all."

23        Q.   Now, you are sir, is one of the above mentioned persons, did you

24     indeed have to go through this procedure as you entered?

25        A.   Yes, of course.  This paper was in the possession of the duty

Page 27326

 1     officer at the reception, at the gate; and he was duty-bound to follow

 2     the procedure, whether he liked it or not, and so was I.

 3        Q.   I thank you, for that, sir.  I would like to now move on to

 4     another answer that you gave earlier this morning.  And in response to a

 5     question, you -- from the Prosecution, you said that you saw an encounter

 6     on videotape or on television between Mr. Borovcanin --

 7             Well, sir, perhaps I -- do you recall having given an answer

 8     about seeing General Mladic on television?

 9        A.   Yes, I saw him on TV and I saw him in person up there in

10     Potocari.  I saw his address on TV.  The address --

11        Q.   If I can just stop you there --

12        A.   -- the address to the people who were gathered there in Potocari.

13        Q.   I just want to focus on the -- if you can recognise based on the

14     footage where he was at the time that he was filmed?

15        A.   What person are you referring to?

16        Q.   General Mladic.

17        A.   Yes, he stood in front of the people who had gathered there.

18     They were outside of the DutchBat base.

19        Q.   Sir, the transcript might be interpreted to suggest that there

20     might have been some kind of a meeting between General Mladic and

21     Mr. Borovcanin.  I wonder if you would like to the clarify that answer?

22        A.   I am not aware of any meeting between the two.  I saw

23     Mr. Borovcanin on TV.  He was not there with Mladic, and I am sure that

24     you have the footage because we saw it at least ten times.  You can see

25     that from the footage, and I think that all TV channels in Bosnia and

Page 27327

 1     Herzegovina broadcast this footage; and I think you can see quite clearly

 2     that Borovcanin and Mladic are not there together.  And thanks to this

 3     footage, I was able to realise that Borovcanin had come to that territory

 4     at all.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  May we have P3837 on e-court, please.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, I would like you to focus on the paragraph above the

 7     list of names.  And in particular, the portion after the comma which

 8     says, and I'll read it:

 9             "The republican commissioner, Dr. Dragan Djokanovic, established

10     a war commission for the municipality of Bratunac."

11             Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And does that accord with your recollection as to the -- as to

14     who it was who established the commission?

15        A.   Well, based on this and, in fact, I remember when this man came

16     and I knew him from the pre-election campaign, I think that he was at the

17     head of the federalist party; and he was in coalition with

18     Muhamed Filipovic, and Radovan Karadzic when there was this initiative

19     about the survival of Bosnia and Herzegovina or Bosnia and Herzegovina

20     remaining within Yugoslavia.  He was one of the advocates of that, so

21     that I knew them from those discussions and obviously he was the

22     commissioner of the president, and he had the powers that if a state of

23     war was declared, I don't know who was in charge of declaring it, the

24     republican assembly, that the members of the war commission would be the

25     following people, whether this was done at the proposal of Djokanovic or

Page 27328

 1     the president, I don't know.  I don't want to go into that.

 2        Q.   All right.  Thank you, sir.  And one last series of questions to

 3     ask you, and it arises out of a question that was asked of you by His

 4     Honour Judge Kwon, yesterday, when he asked you or suggested to you that

 5     perhaps it would have been likely that you would have indeed attended

 6     this meeting with President Karadzic.

 7             Now, I just want to ask you a few questions about that.  You

 8     mention that Mr. Deronjic was president of the SDS in Bratunac and that

 9     he was the president of the deputies club of the SDS; isn't that right?

10     In your testimony in Blagojevic.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So does that mean that he was one of the 33 or 35 deputies of the

13     Bratunac assembly as you've also testified?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Objection?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Leading.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Leading.  Yes.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, Mr. President, in a sense it's leading in a

18     sense it's not.  All of this is actually on the record in this transcript

19     and from Blagojevic.  I'm actually not extending anything that's not

20     already on the record, and I'm just laying a foundation.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I'll bear that in mind with next question and let's

22     move on with this question.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  I am just trying to lay a foundation for the

24     ultimate question, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Point taken.

Page 27329

 1             MR. GOSNELL:

 2        Q.   So, sir, I'm not sure if you answered the question about what

 3     that meant if he was one of the 33 or 35 deputies that you referred to?

 4        A.   Yes, and his vote were just one vote that he could cast for or

 5     against in the assembly.

 6        Q.   And did he hold any other position in this Bratunac municipal

 7     government?

 8        A.   No.  Apart from when I left the assembly and that post, then he

 9     came to replace me because a deputy for a short time --

10        Q.   Sir -- sir?

11        A.   -- and I didn't want to --

12        Q.   And I should have specified that I was asking the question in

13     relation to July 1995.

14        A.   In July 1995, he did not have any functions in the municipality

15     apart from the fact that he was the president of the party and the

16     president of the deputies club; and I think he was also a member of the

17     main board at the republican level.

18        Q.   All right.  Now you've also testified that in July 1995

19     Mr. Deronjic was appointed the civil commissioner of Srebrenica by

20     President Karadzic; is that correct?

21        A.   That is correct.  I heard that and I think this was also

22     published in the media.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Can we -- may we please have P10 put up on e-court.

24        Q.   And, sir, if you can just focus on item 1.  Does that accord with

25     your understanding in your testimony?

Page 27330

 1        A.   I never saw this decision in its entirety, and I never saw up to

 2     now until the end what were his authorities and what it actually meant

 3     that he had been named as commissioner.

 4        Q.   No, I understand that, sir.  I am just asking you about his

 5     actual appointment.

 6        A.   But I ... yes, this is probably this naming of him to that

 7     position, the appointment.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  I am informed that the witness used a word other

 9     than "probably."  I am informed that he used the word "certainly."

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Simic, can you confirm that.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no reason for us not to

12     believe the document which is here.  On the basis of the article you can

13     see that it's procedurally ordered; it's a document that I haven't seen

14     to date and it relate to say Miroslav Deronjic and his powers in that

15     period and during that time among other things, you can see.  And I

16     recall that he later worked to establish and to institute the authorities

17     in Srebrenica for his further work.  Even it is stated here what he will

18     specifically do in Srebrenica afterwards.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  May we please have P3141.

20        Q.   Now, you can see again from this document, sir, item number 1 or

21     at number 1, we can see the name Miroslav Deronjic and several other

22     names.  And the date is July 14th, and it states, "Decision on the

23     appointment of the War Presidency of the Srebrenica-Skelani

24     municipality."

25             Now, I just have one final question for you, I believe.

Page 27331

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  I may have to go back on that assertion,

 2     Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Having looked at these documents and paced on your knowledge and

 4     experience, do you think that Mr. Deronjic may have met Dr. Karadzic as a

 5     representative of the Bratunac municipality or in his capacity as the

 6     civilian commissioner of the Serbian municipality of Srebrenica?

 7        A.   He could have met with him only as part of this function or in

 8     the capacity that he had been appointed to by the president.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I would request the Court's

11     indulgence for us to take the break now.  I would like to opportunity to

12     consult and then close my examination thereafter.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  30 minutes.

14                           --- Break taken at 12.06 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  So, I am back, but Judge Prost has left us and now

17     we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis in another composition.

18             Mr. Gosnell.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, a very few brief further questions.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please.  Take your time.

21             MR. GOSNELL:

22        Q.   Mr. Simic, we left off with the decision on the appointment of

23     the War Presidency of Srebrenica-Skelani municipalities dated 14 July,

24     1995, listing the appointees to that municipality.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  May I now request that P905 be placed on e-court?

Page 27332

 1     P2905.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  What's the problem?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honour, I believe it's still coming up.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:

 8        Q.   Now, sir, you'll see this document.  Again, you saw it -- I

 9     believe it was shown to you by the Prosecution -- I'm sorry, it was shown

10     to you on cross-examination by the Beara Defence.  We see the date there

11     14 July 1995, the same date as the previous document.  And the third line

12     down, you see "+1100, Miroslav Deronjic, and a delegation from

13     Srebrenica."

14             Now, again, based on your knowledge and experience would you

15     understand that a delegation from Srebrenica, as referred to here, would

16     consist of the individuals listed on the decision that you last looked

17     at?

18        A.   I think that the delegation appointed here wanted to go and

19     speak.  Probably in that composition about what and how they will do in

20     Srebrenica, that they needed to set up things because they probably just

21     like myself didn't know exactly how to find their way in that situation

22     giving the circumstances.  So it was about the kind of organisation and

23     how it would be done.  This is my assumption.  I believe that it is quite

24     close to the truth.

25        Q.   I have one last question, for you, sir.  Did you ever see

Page 27333

 1     Mr. Borovcanin engaging in any activities on behalf of the SDS party,

 2     whether before the 17th of February, 1994, or after the 17th of February,

 3     1994?

 4        A.   I already said that and -- I mean, these documents were a

 5     surprise to me because I never was of the conviction that he was a member

 6     appointed, or that he ever did anything as a member.  I never heard that

 7     he had any kind of appointment by the party.  Perhaps this was the first

 8     step towards joining and then had he really wanted to be an active member

 9     or if he wanted to be the bearer of any function he would probably have

10     had to make some corrections in his official capacities and duties.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, we have no further questions.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE KWON:  Some clarification.

16             Mr. Simic, I am not sure whether it was yesterday or the day

17     before, to the question put by Mr. Ostojic representing Mr. Beara,

18     whether you had any discussion with Mr. Deronjic as to the Kravica

19     warehouse you heard from somebody else.  I think you answered "no." You

20     didn't any discussion with Deronjic at all, am I correct?

21        A.   I never had any conversations or heard the -- the first time I

22     heard of it was when I read it.

23             JUDGE KWON:  You read what?  What do you mean when you read it?

24     You --

25        A.   Some conversation between Deronjic and Karadzic which was shown

Page 27334

 1     to me in the course of yesterday, I think.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I am not clear about it.  But let me read the part

 3     of your testimony given at the Blagojevic trial.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  It is page 7628 from line 17 and onwards.  So this

 6     is the time-frame when you heard about the Kravica warehouse, the killing

 7     from probably from Davidovic or sometime later on.  I quote:

 8             "All right, well you did you have a meeting or did you run into

 9     Mr. Deronjic after this encounter with Colonel Beara?"

10             I don't know, I think I'm mistaken.  It's page 7630 from line 13:

11             "Okay, now when you learned of the Kravica warehouse incident,

12     did you have any discussions with any other members of the government or

13     the SDS president, also the commissioner by now, of civilian affairs,

14     Miroslav Deronjic."

15             And this is what you answered:

16             "I asked why that had happened and whether it could have been

17     avoided.  He seemed equally shocked ask taken aback.  He seemed to have

18     heard about the incident when it was already too late for anything to be

19     done."

20             So now you remember that part of your evidence?

21        A.   Yes, and I think I asked him that when he came to the assembly to

22     hand over that document from Potocari.

23             JUDGE KWON:  To certain extent that you had discussion with

24     Deronjic on that matter?

25        A.   I just asked him if the thing in Kravica could have been avoided

Page 27335

 1     and whether he knew how that came about, because I knew his function at

 2     the time, whether he had insight or whether he could have intervened or

 3     predicted it in any anyway, whatever.  But anyway, as I said he was like

 4     that, and he said that he found out about Kravica late when he could no

 5     longer do anything about it.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let me clarify one thing further in relation to your

 7     encounter with Mr. Beara.  After you met with Davidovic, you went into

 8     the -- went to the SDS building in front of which you --

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  -- met an officer.  And at the time you didn't know

11     who he is?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  But let me read the part of your testimony at

14     Blagojevic again.  It is page 7627 where you said, I quote:

15             "I saw an officer there, a senior officer, whom I know now, for

16     whom I know now is called Beara."

17             You said now you know he is Beara.  Could you elaborate on that,

18     what did you mean?

19        A.   Gladly.  I accepted that, what I was told and there was no one

20     else except Beara, and I accepted that as such.  And I said "Yes, I

21     know."  I said yesterday, however, and today, that I am not reliably sure

22     that this is correct, but the person who said that probably had his own

23     reasons why he said that.  He must have had some assumption on the basis

24     of which he said that it was him.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Sometime later on, I take it that you must have seen

Page 27336

 1     an image or picture of Mr. Beara, either through TV or newspaper or

 2     whatever?

 3        A.   Yes, I saw him on television.  Whether he surrendered or was

 4     arrested I don't remember.  And I saw -- at crossings I saw warrants --

 5     or wanted lists, and that's what I saw of him, what he was like at these

 6     wanted persons lists.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Having seen those pictures or images,

 8     were you or were you not able to confirm whether it was Mr. Beara that

 9     you saw in front of the building on that day?

10        A.   If you are willing, I am willing to try to explain to you why.  I

11     had a number of times the opportunity to see people in uniform and out of

12     uniform, and believed me they are very different once they take their

13     uniform off.  Their appearance and face and build is entirely different

14     than when they are wearing civilian uniforms.

15             JUDGE KWON:  So your answer is no.  You are not able to confirm

16     whether it was Beara --

17        A.   No, no.  No still.  And I said yesterday that I wasn't able the

18     confirm this amongst other things because I was not even the concentrated

19     at that time to see who that person was.  I wasn't interested to know

20     what he looked like, but what I wanted to know is could he do what I was

21     asking him to do.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  My final question.  When the convoys of

23     buses arrived in Bratunac, you and other people were concerned about

24     them.  And at the end of the day, they left?

25        A.   I don't understand in what sense concerned and which convoy.

Page 27337

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Were you upset or agitated?  Were the buses full of

 2     the prisoners, and you were concerned about the security of Bratunac, et

 3     cetera.  That's what you said.

 4        A.   I understand now which convoy you are thinking of.  Yes, that is

 5     why I intervened and --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Instead of convoy, the buses.  But, my point is that

 7     at the end of the day the buses left.  My question is -- yes,

 8     Mr. Gosnell.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  This is not an objection, of course, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  I am not sure whether you are using the vernacular

12     expression "at the end of the day," or whether you actually mean a point

13     and time.  I'm a little confused, and I am not sure it might be

14     translated to witness.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  At that time -- at some point of time during

16     that day, the buses left.

17        A.   Yes, the president of the executive board told me that this was

18     done and they finally left in the direction that the rest of the buses

19     had gone the day before.

20             JUDGE KWON:  My question is whose decision it was to have those

21     buses leave Bratunac.

22        A.   Probably someone from the army command, because they, they,

23     according to them came and left from there.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Do you by any chance know, even with hindsight, who

25     it was?

Page 27338

 1        A.   Who from the army command?  I wouldn't be able to say because I

 2     don't know who had which duties within the command, so I would not

 3     speculate whether it was the duty person who was in charge of that or did

 4     somebody order that to them or to him?  Well, all I could do is

 5     speculate.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Simic -- yes, Mr. Ostojic.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would just like the

 9     record to reflect specifically on page 68 in the answer that the witness

10     gave, although I am not sure I should proceed with him listening, but

11     I'll leave that to you, I think there was a word that the witness used

12     that was consistent with what he said yesterday but was not interpreted

13     and therefore not transcribed.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you remove your headphones, please, Mr. Simic.

15     And, usher, can you assist him in the way that the headphones are away

16     from him.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  I will be using a B/C/S word, so I don't know if it

18     has that great of an impact.  And I certainly did not want to object

19     during the Honourable Judge Kwon's questioning.  On line 12, I think,

20     when the witness answered by saying, "gladly I accepted that that what I

21     was told," and then he used the word "verovanto," which is probably,

22     which is consistent with what he said yesterday as opposed to the way it

23     reads now omitting that word or even the translated it could be

24     "apparently," but it certainly used the word, "verovanto," so we could

25     either check the video of that, but I think it's consistent with what he

Page 27339

 1     said yesterday.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anybody wishes to comment on that?  No.  Can you --

 3     you remember when my colleague was referring you to page 7627 of the

 4     Blagojevic testimony, of the testimony in Blagojevic.  And you said,

 5     "Gladly, I accepted that, what I was told," this is what we have in the

 6     transcript, "and there was no one else except Beara and I accepted that

 7     as such."

 8             Did you use the word "probably" in your answer?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, probably.  It is probably

10     Beara.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  There are no further

12     questions for you, Mr. Simic, which means you are free to go.  Our staff

13     will assist you.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber I wish to thank you for

14     having come over, and I also wish you a safe journey back home.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             Documents Mr. Gosnell.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Just 4D606 which includes the two exhibits.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  And subject to the matter that I raised at the

20     beginning, namely, a subsequent filing concerns these three corrections

21     to the transcript.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  And, of course, his testimony has already been

23     admitted.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Formally I am not sure if it's been admitted in the

25     beginning --

Page 27340

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we admit it.  But if we didn't we are

 2     admitting it now.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection?

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from the other colleagues?  None.  So

 7     the documents are so admitted.  Anyone else from the Defence teams wishes

 8     to tender other documents?  None.  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  65 ter number 210, minutes

10     of the SDS municipal board.  Now, I am told that ERN range is the whole

11     thing because it came in one book, and I don't think we want all that in

12     there.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Don't you have the ERN reference for that

14     particular page?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I will check that.  I had used two or three of

16     them and I will get that cleared up for you very soon.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  In the meantime we know what you are talking about.

20     Is there an objection?

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I would just like to defer a

22     response on that.  I haven't had a chance to look at the pages and also

23     look at the transcript more carefully.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So that will be MFIed for the time

25     being and then we will decide if we hear any further from you.  If we

Page 27341

 1     don't hear any further from you, we will proceed with having them

 2     admitted.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And then number 3837, that was the appointment of

 4     the commission, the war commission, of 1992.  That was the one that was

 5     in the name of the witness.

 6             And then 3838, that was the Bratunac Brigade report about

 7     establishing military rule on December 30th, 1992.

 8             And then 3840, that is another Bratunac Brigade order about the

 9     list of people coming into reception.

10             And then 3841, the video clip of -- just the short video clip of

11     some of the evacuations from 1993.  And counsel had objected to the time

12     of the overlay, the BBC commentary.  It wasn't meant for the commentary,

13     so I think it could go in either way.  So we don't need the commentary if

14     there is an objection.  But I would like the images because he testified

15     a lot about the images and that issue.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, any objections?

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, if it's all the same to my learned friend,

18     the opposite, we do object to the commentary, but the images are

19     completely fine.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And just to clarify it, that's a big video, but

22     the clips that we played were 1355 to 1510, and I will get to the ERNs

23     for those other documents.  Just from the English version, Mr. President,

24     the SDS municipal board of February 1993 is 0219 through 2709 to 2805.

25     And that's just in the English a 4-page document, 18 through 21.  And the

Page 27342

 1     next one was the meeting from the minutes held in January 1994.  The

 2     English ERN is 0219 through 2709 to 2805, 41, page 41 through 44 in the

 3     English.  And then I think at the last set of meetings I had was the

 4     February SDS municipal board meeting, which was 0219-2709 through 2805,

 5     and that's page 45, 46, 47, 48 -- through 49, basically.  And we don't

 6     need the rest of those minutes from all the other years.

 7             So it's just these three sessions.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Any objection?

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, Mr. President, that's a lot to digest.  I

10     would just like to reserve our position and come back to you if I may.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Monday, Monday.  Thank you.  Next

12     witness.  Mr. Jankovic.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, Mr. Jankovic, and welcome to

15     this Tribunal.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are about to start giving evidence as a Defence

18     witness for the Defence team of Mr. Borovcanin.  Before you do so you

19     need to mange a solemn declaration that you, in the course of your

20     testimony you will be speaking truth.  Text is going to be handed to you

21     now, please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn commitment

22     with us.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

Page 27343

 1     Mr. Lazarevic will go first.  We won't finish your testimony today

 2     because we have only got less -- a little bit more than half an hour.  We

 3     will continue on Monday, tomorrow being a UN holiday we won't have any

 4     sitting.  Mr. Lazarevic.

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           WITNESS:  ZORAN JANKOVIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jankovic.

10        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic.

11        Q.   Let me introduce myself to you for the record, although we have

12     had an opportunity to meet.  My name is Aleksandar Lazarevic, and

13     together with my colleagues I represent Mr. Borovcanin before this

14     Tribunal.

15             Before I begin asking you questions, I would just like to warn

16     you.  We speak the same language, and could you please wait for me to

17     finish my question and then start making your answer so that we can avoid

18     the overlap which creates problems for the interpreters.  Do you

19     understand?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Fine.  Now, I would like you to state your full name for the

22     record.

23        A.   My name is Zoran Jankovic.

24        Q.   Fine.  Could you now tell us when and where you were born?

25        A.   I was born on the 15th of September, 1967, in Vranjak, Modrica

Page 27344

 1     municipality.

 2        Q.   Fine.  Could you please tell me something about your education,

 3     did you complete it in your place of birth, did you go and get an

 4     education somewhere else?

 5        A.   I completed the elementary school in Vranjak, and secondary

 6     school I attended in Sarajevo.  It was the school of the Ministry of the

 7     Interior.

 8        Q.   Could you please tell me when it was, what year did you graduate

 9     from this school of the Ministry of the Interior?

10        A.   I graduated from the school in 1986.

11        Q.   Could you please tell me, where did you live up until the time

12     when the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13        A.   After I graduated from the secondary school, I started working in

14     Modrica as a policeman.  I started at my job on the 1st of July, 1986.

15        Q.   I would just like to ask you to speak up a little bit or to get a

16     little bit closer to the microphones.  So I conclude on the basis of what

17     you've just told us that you live in Modrica; is that right?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I lived in Modrica.

19        Q.   And you told us that you started with your job in the police.

20     Could you please tell me whether right from the start you started working

21     in the police whether there were any changes in terms of your employment?

22        A.   As soon as I graduated from the school I started working in the

23     police and I never did anything else.

24        Q.   Could you now tell us, briefly, about your career in the police.

25     What kind of work did you do at the beginning, did you then move to some

Page 27345

 1     other tasks within the police?

 2        A.   I was first a beat officer, patrolling the area.  And for a

 3     period I worked in Sarajevo in the republican secretariat of the

 4     interior.  For a while I was providing security to persons and facilities

 5     and for a period of time I was -- I worked on trains, providing security

 6     on trains, and then I went on to do the work of a traffic policeman.

 7        Q.   Can you please tell me whether you are employed now?

 8        A.   No, I am unemployed.  I am retired.

 9        Q.   Let's move on now to 1995.  Let's start from the beginning.

10     Could you please tell me what duties did you have in 1995?

11        A.   In 1995, I was a traffic policeman in the traffic police station

12     in Modrica.

13        Q.   Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your regular

14     police work in 1995.  Could you tell me, what kind of uniform did you

15     wear at that time?

16        A.   At that time we had blue uniforms.  We, the traffic policemen,

17     had white sleeve covers and white hats on top of that.

18        Q.   Fine.  And could you please tell me while you did your regular

19     police work as a traffic policeman, did you carry weapons?

20        A.   Yes, we had our sidearms, a pistol in other words.

21        Q.   Fine.  Now, I would like you to explain to us very briefly the

22     structure.  I will go through it with you through my questions so that

23     people could see what the traffic police station looked like, what its

24     structure was.  Could you tell me, who was your superior in situations

25     where you performed your regular police work?

Page 27346

 1        A.   It was the commander, "komandir," and his deputy.  They were my

 2     superiors.

 3        Q.   We are now talking about traffic police station in Modrica.  In

 4     terms of the chain of command, who was superior to the komandir and the

 5     deputy komandir of the traffic police station?

 6        A.   Well, that would be the chief of the public security station.

 7        Q.   Fine.  Could you please tell me, I have a question in relation to

 8     this.  In July 1995, did you perhaps have some kind of a rank?

 9        A.   No.  We did not have ranks up until 1995.  We had our functional

10     designations.

11        Q.   Fine.  Well, in addition to the regular police work that we've

12     just talked about, were you a member of the PJPs?

13        A.   Yes, I was a member of a PJP of the Doboj public security centre.

14     That also included members of my police station.

15        Q.   I think that at page 78, line 16, there is a correction for the

16     transcript.  When you were talking about this you said at that time, and

17     I was asking you about 1995, you said that you had functional

18     designations, you meant that you didn't have ranks.  That's what you

19     said?  I don't want to put words into your mouth but that's what you

20     said?

21        A.   I said that in 1995 there were no ranks in the police.  There

22     were just functional designations or insignia.

23        Q.   So before I took you back to the previous question you were

24     telling us about being a member of the PJPs in the Doboj public security

25     centre, or, rather, that personnel from your station went to those PJPs.

Page 27347

 1     Can you please tell me, based on your recollection, those PJPs, in what

 2     public security centre were they formed?

 3        A.   Each public security centre had its PJP.

 4        Q.   Could you please be more specific now.  You mentioned -- or,

 5     rather, can you tell us what centre did your PJP belong to?

 6        A.   My unit, the unit that I belonged to was under the public

 7     security centre in Doboj.

 8        Q.   Fine.  Could you now tell me, to the best of your recollection,

 9     how many companies of the PJP were there in the Doboj public security

10     centre?

11        A.   A total of five companies.

12        Q.   What company did you belong to, if you can remember?

13        A.   I belonged to the 5th Company.

14        Q.   Fine.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do we have to go through all this?  Can't we go

16     straight to the facts that really he is here to testify upon?  The facts

17     in July, 1995, when he was captured?

18             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I understand your suggestion;

19     however, what I want to establish, maybe it's not appropriate to say this

20     in front of the witness.  But there were some important issues in

21     relation to PJP Doboj and the companies, this is why I am -- have to go

22     through this, because there were some suggestions --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  But I didn't see those in the summary.

24             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Then I have -- I apologise, this is just a

25     foundational issue to explain --

Page 27348

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Go ahead.  Go ahead.

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, could you please tell me in the 5th PJP company who

 4     was the commander of your company?

 5        A.   The commander of the 5th PJP company was Milan Gavric from

 6     Bosanski Brod.

 7        Q.   And can you please tell me who was the deputy commander of the

 8     PJP company, the 5th PJP company that you were a member of?

 9        A.   The deputy commander was the commander of the 1st Platoon,

10     Zeljko Puseljic.

11        Q.   Did you have some kind of a function in the 5th PJP company from

12     the Doboj public security centre?

13        A.   Yes.  I was the commander of the 3rd Platoon.

14        Q.   I just have a couple of more questions on this topic.  Could you

15     please tell me whether your PJP company included only personnel of the

16     public security station from Modrica or did it include personnel from

17     other public security stations?

18        A.   There were other personnel from other stations, too.

19        Q.   And can you please tell me what other public security stations

20     provided staff for your PJP company?

21        A.   Our PJP company got the personnel from Doboj Derventa, Vukosavlje

22     Brod, public security stations.

23        Q.   Fine.  And all those public security stations that you just

24     listed, were they all territorially under the Doboj public security

25     centre?

Page 27349

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you know whether in Doboj there was a special police

 3     detachment?

 4        A.   Yes.  There was a special police detachment in Doboj.

 5        Q.   Now, I would like us to clear some things for your further

 6     testimony.  This special police detachment, was it functionally apart

 7     from the PJPs and the regular police?

 8        A.   Yes, that detachment was in the Doboj public security centre,

 9     physically, but in terms of its chain of command it was not part of it.

10     The chief of the centre could not exercise command over this detachment.

11     They were subordinated to the special police brigade and the MUP.

12        Q.   Fine.  I just have a small correction for the transcript.  You

13     were, of course, talking about the fact that it was territorially in

14     Doboj, because it -- it is stated here that it was physically in the

15     Doboj public security centre, what you meant is that it was territorially

16     in the Doboj public security centre?

17        A.   Its headquarters were in Doboj, in the town of Doboj.

18        Q.   All right.  Thank you, I think that now it is clear.  To clear

19     this up, let me ask you this:  The commander of the special police

20     detachment from Doboj, could he issue orders to you or to any other

21     member of the public security station in Modrica, in Doboj, whatever?

22        A.   No, they could not issue any orders to us.  They could, perhaps,

23     ask us to provide assistance to them, but they -- we couldn't issue

24     orders to them, either.

25        Q.   Fine.  Now, I would like us to pursue this topic of the PJPs.  As

Page 27350

 1     a member of the PJP, when you went into the field, did you wear the same

 2     uniform that you had when you performed your regular police work or was

 3     it different?

 4        A.   We did not have the same uniforms.  We had special uniform we

 5     wore when we went out to do those tasks.  It was a camouflage green

 6     uniform.

 7        Q.   Fine.  And could you tell me when you went out to do those tasks,

 8     when you were involved in the working of the PJPs, what kind of weapons

 9     did you have?  The same kind of official pistols that you carried when

10     you went about your regular police work?

11        A.   No, we did not carry pistols.  We had automatic weapons,

12     automatic rifles, and as far as I can recall in my platoon there were

13     three light machine-guns, 7.62 millimetre calibre.

14        Q.   Apart from what you've just told us, did any members of the PJP

15     company have any heavier weapons, larger calibre?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   When you took part in operations as a member of the PJP, did you

18     have any communication equipment that you could use to communicate with

19     each other?

20        A.   No.  We would usually get those once we were in the field.

21        Q.   Could you please tell me what kind of communication equipment are

22     we talking about that you were issued once you were in the field?

23        A.   Those were small Motorolas.

24        Q.   And now tell me, to the best of your recollection, your PJP

25     company, how many of those Motorolas did it receive?

Page 27351

 1        A.   We were issued with four Motorolas.  One was kept by the company

 2     commander, and the three platoon commander each had one.

 3        Q.   Fine.  And just a few questions on this topic.  When your

 4     company, the 5th PJP Company from the Zvornik public security centre, did

 5     it have a medical team which would intervene if any of you got wounded in

 6     the course of combat and treat the wounded?

 7        A.   I think you've just made a mistake when you said the Zvornik PJP.

 8        Q.   Of course, yes, it's possible.  What I meant was the PJP company

 9     from Doboj?

10        A.   The PJP from Doboj did not have a medical team.

11        Q.   Let me ask you now whether you had a logistics platoon within

12     your company that would make sure that you had ammunition, supplies,

13     combat equipment, food, was there anything like that in your company?

14        A.   No, no, we did not have anything of the sort in our company.

15        Q.   And now tell me, when you went into combat what -- how did you

16     receive ammunition supplies, materiel, food, and all the other stuff that

17     you needed?

18        A.   We received all this from whoever it was that we were

19     subordinated in the field, and usually those were army units.

20        Q.   Just a couple of questions before we move on to specific events

21     from 1992.  Can you please tell us whether there was a mortar squad or an

22     artillery section in your unit that could provide fire support in combat?

23        A.   No, we didn't have going like that.

24        Q.   Can you please tell me now when you would go out in the field

25     when you went with your company out in combat, what sort of transport

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 1     vehicles were available to you?  How were you taken to these places where

 2     your engagement was required?

 3        A.   Usually, we would rent buses from some transport company for the

 4     purpose.

 5        Q.   So you didn't have your own bus, but the buses were rented; is

 6     that correct?  Did I understand your answer correctly?

 7        A.   We didn't have our own buses.  They were rented from other

 8     companies, transport companies.

 9        Q.   Just a couple of questions on this topic.  When you would go in

10     the field for combat, you said that you were already -- you already said

11     that you were in traffic and transport police, did you use the blue and

12     white police vehicles with rotation lights -- rotating lights or not?

13        A.   No, we didn't use those vehicles for combat actions.

14        Q.   Just a couple of more questions on this.  Before July 1995, did

15     you take part in any combat as a member of the PJP of the Doboj centre?

16        A.   Yes, I did participate on a number of occasions.

17        Q.   All right.  I am not going to spend too much time on this.  What

18     I am interested in is this:  How did you receive the information, for

19     example, today you are performing your regular task, you are overseeing

20     traffic, how would you receive information that you would need to go to

21     the PJP and that you were being sent to a different kind of assignment?

22        A.   I would be informed about that by my superiors, usually orally.

23        Q.   All right.  Now I would like to move to July 1995 and to events

24     relating to Srebrenica.  Can you please tell me, you personally, when did

25     you find out for the first time that the VRS forces had entered

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 1     Srebrenica?  Can you remember that?

 2        A.   I think that this was on the 12th of July.  And I found out from

 3     the media, this was in the news.

 4        Q.   All right.  And can you please tell me in your best recollection,

 5     how did you receive information that you were supposed to report to the

 6     PJP in Modrica?

 7        A.   I received the notification on the 13th, around noon,

 8     approximately, around 12.00.

 9        Q.   Can you recall who informed you about this?  How did you receive

10     this notification that you were supposed to assemble?

11        A.   I was informed about it by the deputy komandir of my station.

12        Q.   After you received this notification, you left.  Can you just

13     briefly tell me how this assembling of the PJP members from Modrica

14     proceeded on that day?  Where did you assemble?  How many of you turned

15     up?  Did you bring your equipment with you?  Can you please tell us about

16     it?

17        A.   We assembled in front of the Modrica police station.  Usually

18     members of my station would come there, and that's how it was this time

19     as well.  After that, we went to the intersection not far from the town

20     centre, the intersection is called Jakesnica.  We would wait for the

21     buses there that came from Doboj -- the direction of Doboj.

22        Q.   Let me just put a sub-question to you.  How many of you were

23     there from the Modrica police station?  How many of you assembled in

24     front of the police station and then proceeded to the Jakesnica

25     intersection?

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 1        A.   I'm not really quite sure, but I believe it was between 10 and 15

 2     of us.

 3        Q.   Of course, I am not surely going to the insist on you providing

 4     the exactly number, but can you please tell me did you take your weapons

 5     with you?  And if you did, what did you take with you?

 6        A.   We took our automatic weapons and one combat kit of ammunition

 7     each, as well as dry rations for one day.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Now, I just want to ask you at the time when you

 9     gathered in front of the police station in Modrica, can you tell me if

10     you were told where you would be going?

11        A.   We were told that we were going to Zvornik and that we would

12     receive further information -- or further instructions once we reached

13     Zvornik.

14        Q.   Very well.  I interrupted you at one point with some follow-up

15     questions, so members of the Modrica police station came to the Jakesnica

16     intersection, and then can you tell us what happened after that?  How was

17     this trip unfolding, what happened?

18        A.   Two buses from the direction of Doboj came to the Jakesnica

19     intersection, we boarded the second bus because the first one was already

20     full and the company commander Gavric was already on that bus.

21        Q.   I apologise, but in order for us to have a clear answer, was

22     Gavric in the first bus or in the second bus where you were?

23        A.   Gavric and I were not on the same bus, Gavric was in the first

24     bus and I was in the second bus.

25        Q.   All right.  I think that is clear now.  And tell me, in your

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 1     estimate, how many of you were in the two buses that went in the

 2     direction of Zvornik, a total number?

 3        A.   The two buses were full, so it was about 100 persons.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [In English] [Previous translation continues] ...

 5     start with some documents and if we can adjourn earlier, five minutes

 6     earlier today, because it's a completely different topic and ...

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Jankovic, we are going to the finish here

10     today.  We will continue on Monday as I explained to you because tomorrow

11     is a UN holiday, and we won't have a sitting.  Between now and Monday you

12     have an obligation not to communicate with anyone here or in your country

13     in connection with the matters that you are testifying upon.  Is that

14     clear?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's clear.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Has someone explained to you this

17     obligation?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It was explained to me.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Victims and Witnesses Section

21     explained it.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank the witnesses and victims section for doing

23     that regularly with all witnesses, but I just wanted to make sure the

24     witnesses understand.  So we stand adjourned thank you and have nice

25     weekend.

Page 27356

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 2                           1.40 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the

 3                           27th day of October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.