Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27587

 1                           Thursday, 30 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon, Madam Registrar.  Could you call

 7     the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     number IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  All the accused are present.

11     Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.  The Defence teams are all

12     here, but I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes and

13     Mr. Ostojic.

14             Okay.  Good afternoon to you, sir.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome back.  We are going to continue with your

17     testimony and hopefully finish.

18             Mr. Lazarevic.

19             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

20     everyone.

21                           WITNESS:  MILAN STOJCINOVIC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

23                           [Examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.  I would like to take you

25     back to the topic of the police forces staff on Mount Jahorina.  What do

Page 27588

 1     you remember?  Was the commander of that staff the same throughout the

 2     staff's existence, or did various people take turn in that place?

 3        A.   There were very often very common changes in that place.  I

 4     believe that Dusko Jevic was the first, then Borovcanin, then Goran

 5     Saric, but I am not sure about the last two.

 6        Q.   You mentioned Mr. Borovcanin as being the commander of that staff

 7     for a while.  To the best of your recollection, when was that

 8     approximately?

 9        A.   I'm not sure.  I believe that it was in April 1995.

10        Q.   And after him, can you remember who took over from him?

11        A.   I think Goran Saric.

12             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we please look at the

13     following document, which is 4D66.

14        Q.   We can see that this is a dispatch by Commander Goran Saric, the

15     commander of the special brigade, dated 13 June 1995.

16             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in to see when

17     Mr. Saric was appointed.

18        A.   It was the 13th of you June.

19        Q.   Now that we have looked at this document, I would like to ask you

20     one more thing about Mr. Saric.  You see that Goran Saric will be in

21     command of the police staff on Jahorina and that his deputy will be the

22     assistant commander Mladenko Borovcanin.  Do you see that?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   To the best of your recollection, what was Mladenko Borovcanin's

25     position in the special police brigade at the time?  What was his

Page 27589

 1     function?

 2        A.   In any case, he was the assistant commander of the brigade, but I

 3     am not sure what he was in charge of.  I believe that he was in charge of

 4     some sort of training.

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Just one correction for the transcript.  It's on

 6     page 2, line 44.  There is something here.  It's on page 2, line 22.  I

 7     was referring to Mr. Borovcanin Mladenko, so just to have a clear record.

 8        Q.   With regard to this document, now that we have had an occasion to

 9     see the document and the date on it, does this correspond with the time

10     when Mr. Saric took over the command of the staff?

11        A.   Yes, it does.

12        Q.   And you've told us that Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin was the staff

13     commander before him, to the best of your recollection?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And before that, we also saw documents dating from -- to April

16     1995 where Mr. Jevic is mentioned as the staff commander?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Very well.  And now, I would like us to sidetrack a little and

19     ask you something about the special brigade.  In addition to taking part

20     in combat, do you remember that the special police brigade performed

21     other duties in crisis situations?  Are you familiar with any other type

22     of jobs that the brigade was involved in?

23        A.   The special police brigade tasks did not concern waging a war,

24     but they concerned their own territory, policing in the territory.

25     During the war they were trained to perform such tasks that had to do

Page 27590

 1     with the maintenance of public law and order, prevention of large scale

 2     disruptions of public law and order, providing security for mass or

 3     large-scale gatherings, providing security for various individuals and

 4     facilities, prevention of the infiltration of sabotage and terrorists

 5     groups, and also assisting the population in cases of disasters, natural

 6     or others.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like us to look

 8     at a few documents that might shed some light on what you have just

 9     spoken about.  May the Court please produce 4D631.

10        Q.   This document has not been translated.  The document is short,

11     however.  It's a dispatch by the Ministry of the Interior dated 23

12     September, 1994.  Somewhere in the middle of the document, it says: "I

13     hereby command members of the diving team of the special brigade police,"

14     under 1, "Ljubisa Borovcanin," under 2, "Mladenko Borovcanin," and there

15     are other names, a total of eight of them.  And just for the record,

16     let's look at the last part of the document of the dispatch, which says:

17     "They insisted an enormous effort in searching the lake in Zvornik for

18     three days and managing to find the bodies" -- or rather, "the body of a

19     person mentioned herein."

20             My question to you is this, sir.  Now that we see this document,

21     does this document illustrate some activities that members of the special

22     police brigade were engaged in?

23        A.   I participated in this event.  I was also involved in the

24     execution of this task and was commanded for that.  Under number 2,

25     Mladenko Borovcanin, and under number 3, Goran Markovic are specials from

Page 27591

 1     the -- the special police unit that was active before the war.  Even

 2     Tomislav Tutovic, they were all -- Tomislav Krstovic, they were all

 3     trained before the war to perform diving tasks.

 4        Q.   Very well.  We will no longer need these -- this document, and

 5     just one more question about the staffs.  Do you know whether the police

 6     forces staffs were also formed for some other situations, not only for

 7     the command and control of the police units?  Were there some other

 8     examples for which the police forces staffs were ever established?

 9        A.   This was dictated by practice.  As soon as a situation occurred

10     on the ground which called for the participation of several segments of

11     the police force, in such situations a staff would be established

12     composed of the representatives of such formations for an easier command

13     and control of these units.

14        Q.   Let's look at the following document.  You are going to see it on

15     the screen before you.

16             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] May the Court please produce

17     4D632.  And again, unfortunately, I don't think we have received the

18     translation of this document.  I believe this is the last document for

19     which a translation is still pending.  The rest have been translated.

20        Q.   We can see that this is a dispatch by the Ministry of the

21     Interior sent on the 17 February 1996.  Let's look at the following page,

22     please.  Let's look at the last two paragraphs on the second page.  This

23     is an order which says: "I hereby order to launch the Winter '96

24     Operation and establish a security staff that will be composed of" -

25     under 1 - "Ljubisa Borovcanin, the chief of admission, the head of

Page 27592

 1     staff."  And in order to provide a complete picture of the situation,

 2     could we please scroll up to the top of the document.

 3             You see that the national assembly of Republika Srpska was in

 4     session under special circumstances.  Was that the reason for the

 5     establishment of the staff?

 6        A.   This was post-Dayton Accords.  This was post-war, and both sides

 7     were unhappy.  The specificity of the situation consisted in the fact

 8     that the Serbian people did not accept what our representatives had

 9     signed, so the assembly session had to be secured.

10        Q.   But war was still going on in the Republika Srpska, was it not?

11        A.   Well, yes, more or less.

12        Q.   And on the entire territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13        A.   Yes, but this had nothing to do with the -- the enemy's side.

14     These were our own inner struggles.  There were a lot of people present,

15     and this called for a larger-scale security, and several police units had

16     to participate in that from the security centres, from the brigades.  A

17     staff had to be established because somebody had to be in control.

18        Q.   And we can see on this side that Mr. Borovcanin was appointed as

19     the head of this staff, and if we move to the following page we will see

20     who else was on the staff, who were the other members of the staff.  I

21     don't think it says -- it is necessary, but we can see the functions of

22     the members of the staff.  It says the chief of the administration of

23     public security, the chief of the public security station in Pale, and I

24     don't think we have to go any further.

25             And if you look at the following paragraph, you will see that it

Page 27593

 1     says the security staff will draft a plan with concrete measures of

 2     operative, physical, technical, traffic, and other forms of security and

 3     will appoint persons in charge.  The document was signed by Minister

 4     Dragan Kijac.

 5             Now that we have seen this document, can you please tell me

 6     whether this would be a situation in which the police forces staff was

 7     established for some activities which were not can combat activities by

 8     their nature?

 9        A.   You're right.  This was not about any combat activities.  This

10     was about providing security in order to prevent any disruptions or

11     incidents.  This was common practice.

12        Q.   Very well.  And now, I would like us to move on to the events

13     that took place in 1995.  Tell me just briefly.  My questions are going

14     to be very relative, and if there is no need I am going to ask for

15     clarification and further explanation.  But first of all, tell me, do you

16     know that at one point in time in 1995 a -- a staff was established in

17     Pale, a staff took control and command of police forces?

18        A.   Yes, I often go there to deliver mail or to receive tasks.  The

19     staff was billeted in a catering facility called Tron.

20        Q.   When was that?  When was that staff established to the best of

21     your recollection?

22        A.   I am not sure, but in 1995 it was operational.

23        Q.   And can you please remember the reasons for which the staff was

24     established?

25        A.   Well, the reasons were because of the enemy offensive that

Page 27594

 1     already commenced in spring 1995.

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to have a look

 3     at the following document, 4D139.

 4        Q.   While we're waiting for it to appear on the screen, let me tell

 5     you that it's a document from the office of the Minister of the Interior

 6     of Republika Srpska.  It's dated the 16th of June, 1995.  It contains

 7     conclusions from the meeting of the Minister of the Interior, a meeting

 8     that was held on the same day.

 9             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at the second

10     page of the document.  Let's have a look at item A1.  AD1, it says.

11        Q.   As we can see, it says after having discussed the current

12     military situation in the republic as a result of an intensive enemy

13     action against all lines in Republika Srpska, the following conclusions

14     were adopted.  Item 4 says:  "In the Tron facility in Pale, form a staff

15     for commanding police units." [No interpretation]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Hold it because we are not --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.  The microphone was

18     not switched on.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.  Thank you.  You need to repeat

20     please, Mr. Lazarevic.

21             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Having examined the document, and you already told us that you

23     are aware of the existence of this staff, and you also said that it was

24     located in the Tron facility in Pale, we could see that it's the 16th of

25     July, 1995, that that is the date.  So does this help you to find your

Page 27595

 1     bearings with regard to when this staff was actually established?

 2        A.   I think that this was a staff -- headquarters of the staff, but

 3     the staff was previously formed.  I know that the commander was Mr. Tomo

 4     Kovac, Tomislav Kovac.  The chief of the cabinet is the signature.  This

 5     is from relevant officers from the Ministry of the Interior of the

 6     Republika Srpska.  I know almost all of them.

 7        Q.   And obviously on the 16th of June, well, that's the date when

 8     this decision was taken, the decision to form the staff; is that correct?

 9        A.   That's quite possible.

10        Q.   Very well.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's move on to another subject

12     now.  Let's have a look at 4D272.

13        Q.   This is a law on modifications and amendments to the law, on

14     applying the law on army and conditions of an imminent threat of war or

15     of a state of war.  The date is the 12th of May, 1995.  It was published

16     in Official Gazette 7/95.

17             And I'd like to have a look at a very brief law.  Let's first

18     have a look at item 2 -- paragraph 2 under Article 1.  It says that

19     "Recruits enlisted for the VES, for the military police.  May be signed

20     to do their military service in special units of the Ministry of the

21     Interior."

22             The following paragraph in this article says that:  "The

23     contingent of recruits from the previous paragraph shall be trained

24     according to the training programme for members of special units of the

25     Ministry of the Interior."

Page 27596

 1             So I would first like to ask you whether at the time you found

 2     out that this law had been amended, this law that allowed recruits to

 3     serve in units of the Ministry of the Interior, and when I say to serve

 4     there, I mean to do their military service there.

 5        A.   I didn't have this law in front of me, but I'm familiar with

 6     these provisions in the form of dispatches received in the police.

 7        Q.   Very well.

 8             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And I'd now like to have a look

 9     at the following document, 4D626.

10        Q.   You said that you were familiar with the amendments to the law,

11     and you also said that you'd been informed about these amendments in

12     dispatches.  Have a look at this document.  Now, is this what you were

13     referring to?  This is, in fact, a dispatch?

14        A.   Yes, that's a -- the kind of dispatch I was talking about.

15        Q.   And as we can see, it's addressed to various parts of the MUP --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly asked to repeat what he

17     said, as there was overlapping.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  There was overlapping, and the interpreter would

19     like you to repeat what you said, please, in your last answer.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  At the end -- well, the

21     dispatch is addressed to various departments but to everyone in the end.

22     So the entire Ministry of the Interior was familiar with this.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Very well.  My following question with regard to the law that we

25     have examined and the dispatch that we have seen, in accordance with

Page 27597

 1     these amendments to the law, at some point in time did a group of

 2     recruits start arriving on Jahorina for the sake of training as stated in

 3     this law?

 4        A.   Well, on the basis of this law we started preparations for doing

 5     one's military service within the Ministry of the Interior; and at the

 6     time, during this period of time, were commenced on Jahorina.  And in

 7     order to see how this would function, because we weren't sure about this,

 8     we had a pilot project that was to include 35 recruits on Jahorina.

 9        Q.   Tell me, as far as you can remember, when did this, roughly

10     speaking, happen?

11        A.   I think this was in mid-June 1995.

12        Q.   Very well.  So training of recruits who were doing their military

13     service was concerned?

14        A.   Yes.  These were young men whose duty it was to do their military

15     service.

16        Q.   Very well.  I'd now like to deal with another category that

17     arrived on Jahorina at one point in time.

18             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at 4DP1.  It's

19     an order from the president of the Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic,

20     dated the 16th of June, 1995.

21        Q.   And the strictest measures for combat preparation are being

22     introduced for combat-readiness.  Let's have a look at the first page,

23     item 3.  Item 3, paragraph 2, it's in the lower part of the document.

24             Here it says that the Ministry of the Interior and of -- the

25     Interior will do the necessary for the return of military conscripts from

Page 27598

 1     the Serbia and to allocate them to the units of the armed forces.

 2             I'd now like to have a look at page 3 in this document in the

 3     B/C/S version, the second paragraph where it says: "The army Main Staff

 4     shall use the command to secure the reception of mobilized recruits.

 5     They will accept them and introduce them to the units," and they will

 6     also provide them with the necessary training.

 7             Having seen this document, tell me, do you remember any

 8     activities that have to do with bringing in military conscripts, and this

 9     was done by the Republika Srpska MUP?

10        A.   I am familiar with this order in the form of internal dispatches

11     in the Ministry of the Interior, and I know that this was in fact done.

12        Q.   In order to make a distinction in the training centre on

13     Jahorina, as you have already said, we had individuals who attended a

14     policemen's course; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Then we had recruits who were doing their military service in MUP

17     units?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And this, now, is the third category that is trained in the

20     centre for training individuals on Jahorina?

21        A.   Well, at the time it wasn't in the form of a centre.  At the time

22     we called it a camp, a training camp.  But the number of men increased as

23     a result of these men being brought in from the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia.

25        Q.   And now that we are discussing this category, we are talking

Page 27599

 1     about military conscripts who left the territory of Republika Srpska to

 2     avoid serving in the armed forces.  What was the name?

 3        A.   The usual name, deserters.

 4        Q.   Tell me, at some point in time, did these deserters start

 5     arriving in the centre?

 6        A.   Within a two-day period, from the beginning of the second half of

 7     June, I can't exactly remember the date, but in two days over 200 such

 8     individuals arrived.

 9             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to have a look

10     at the following document, 4D511.  It's a report on the work of the

11     special police brigade for June 1995, and if we could have a look at the

12     second page.  Very well.  Could we zoom in a bit?  I am interested in the

13     third paragraph on the second page.  It's page 1 in the English version.

14     It's somewhere in the middle of the paragraph, and it says the camp for

15     receiving and training military conscripts have been returned from the

16     SRJ, has started operating -- or started operating on Jahorina on the

17     22nd of June, 1995.  It was organised by the senior command officers and

18     the brigade instructor team.

19        Q.   Can you see that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And tell me, now, having seen this document, does this period of

22     time correspond to the time-period that you remember as being the time

23     when the centre for training on Jahorina commenced with its work?

24        A.   Well, this only confirms what I can remember.

25             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have a look at

Page 27600

 1     4D119 now.  It's a dispatch from the deputy minister of the MUP dated the

 2     23rd of June, 1995.

 3        Q.   We have it on the screen now.  And in this dispatch, the deputy

 4     minister is informing the president of Republika Srpska about the number

 5     of military conscripts delivered by the Serbian MUP.  You can see that in

 6     the first paragraph of the dispatch.

 7             So, tell me, here it says that a total of 1.586 conscripts were

 8     handed over to the VRS forces, the Republika Srpska army, and out of that

 9     number 149 conscripts were handed over to the MUP staff on Jahorina.

10     Does this, roughly speaking, confirm what you have been saying about the

11     arrival of these people who were sent to Jahorina?

12        A.   Yes, that's true.  But this number, 149 conscripts, was

13     augmented.  Another 70 or 80 individuals should be added to that number.

14        Q.   Very well.  When bringing these individuals in, as far as you can

15     remember, were there any mistakes made?  Were any individuals brought in

16     who were soon sent back to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

17        A.   Well, there were several dozen individuals who had mistakenly

18     been brought in because perhaps they didn't have ID on them at the time.

19     But as soon as evidence was found, they were sent back immediately.

20             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's now have a look

21     at 4D628.  It's a dispatch from the staff taking in military conscripts

22     from SRJ -- from the SRJ.  Its headquarters are in Bijeljina.  It's

23     addressed to the deputy minister of the MUP on the 27th of June, 1995.

24        Q.   If we look at the first paragraph, the introduction, can we see

25     from it that a request arrived from the Serbian MUP for certain

Page 27601

 1     conscripts to be urgently returned to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

 2     and a list of eight names is referred to?

 3        A.   Yes, there were people like that in 1995.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at the

 5     following document, 4D629.  This is an order by the president of the

 6     Republika Srpska sent to the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska

 7     and the MUP of the Republika Srpska on the 28th of June, 1995.

 8        Q.   We see in this order that people who had been delivered to

 9     Republika Srpska by mistake are ordered to return -- or to be returned,

10     rather.  My question in this regard is as follows:  This document and the

11     previous one that we just saw, do they refer to what you were just

12     talking about; i.e., that there was a number of people who had been

13     delivered to Republika Srpska by mistake?

14        A.   This is the same, but these are interventions that reach the

15     office of the president of the Republic, and hence, his order.

16     Basically, it's about the same cases.

17             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at another

18     document in this regard, 4D630 is the number.  Again, its a dispatch by

19     the deputy of the Ministry of the Interior, dated 13 July 1995, sent to

20     the president of Republika Srpska.

21        Q.   And we can see in this dispatch that the deputy minister informs

22     the president about the implementation of the MUP Serbia action to return

23     military conscripts to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and that a

24     total of 43 persons who had been mistaken by a mistake to the republic,

25     mostly citizens of the state of Serbia, were returned.

Page 27602

 1             My question about the three documents, do they demonstrate the

 2     principle based on which the return of these individuals was carried out?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is correspondence between the Ministry of the Interior

 4     and the president of the republic about the same thing, about dealing

 5     with the same problem.

 6        Q.   If I understood the procedure well, the MUP Serbia sent their

 7     request, then the president issued his order for some individuals to be

 8     returned.  This was done by the MUP Republika Srpska and informed the

 9     president of Republika Srpska of that.

10        A.   Yes, that's exactly how it was.

11        Q.   What about the individuals who were not returned to the Federal

12     Republic of Yugoslavia who had been brought to the centre in Jahorina for

13     training?  According to the best of your recollection, were they treated

14     differently then the other categories of trainees, and if your answer is

15     "yes," could you please explain the difference?

16        A.   Yes, there was a difference in attitude.  It was a very peculiar

17     group of young men, aged between 25 and 35, a very non-homogenous group.

18     First, they had to be kept together, keep them confined, so to speak, so

19     that they could not run away.  And then we had to work with them, and we

20     had to turn them into a -- into soldiers.  That's what we called them at

21     the time.  That's what we called the process at the time.

22        Q.   But my question applied to the other two categories, recruits

23     serving in the army and trainees for the policemen.  Was the treatment

24     different?

25        A.   The first two category were volunteers, and the third category

Page 27603

 1     had been forced to be there.  They were not really confined.  They were

 2     not enclosed.

 3        Q.   Just for a clarification.  When you say they were volunteers,

 4     that means that they were there on their own will?  I just want to avoid

 5     any confusion.

 6        A.   Police trainees and military conscripts were there of their own

 7     will, and the others had been forced to be there.  Able-bodied men who

 8     had fled to the federal state of Yugoslavia had been forced to be there

 9     to perform their civic duty.

10        Q.   Now that we're talking about the state category that we will call

11     deserters, had they had their personal IDs removed from them?

12        A.   Many of them did not have them at all.  But those who did, yes,

13     the documents were taken from them.

14        Q.   And when it comes to the freedom of movement, were they

15     restricted, the deserters?  Did they have any restrictions on their

16     freedom of movement?

17        A.   Jahorina Mountain, where we worked, they were not restricted in

18     movement.  There was nowhere to go.  They could go to the nearest

19     newsstand to buy newspapers.  They adapted to that, but they were not

20     allowed to leave the mountain, although they asked for that very often.

21     For example, they wanted to go to see the doctor.  They would be taken

22     there but under escort.  We wanted to prevent any situations of

23     desertion.

24        Q.   Do you remember whether they were organised in one unit or

25     several units?  How was their stay organised?

Page 27604

 1        A.   They were organised in two companies of three or four platoons.

 2     After such a long time, I can't remember exactly.  I know that they were

 3     organised in two companies.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at another document,

 5     which is 4D352.  This is a daily report from the training camp on Mount

 6     Jahorina.  The assistant of the special police brigade sends that to the

 7     Ministry of the Interior, and the date is the 31st of July, 1995.

 8             Can we scroll down a little?

 9        Q.   Who signed this document, please?

10        A.   I am the signatory.  Actually, I signed the document on behalf of

11     my commander, Dusko Jevic.  I drafted the document.

12        Q.   In this report, we can see that there are 251 [as interpreted]

13     police trainees and 31 recruits on the list.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And they are on Mount Jahorina for training, and we can see in

16     the lower part that one person left the camp without permission.  His

17     name is mentioned in here.  I would like us to focus on the handwritten

18     part of this document in the top part of the page.  Could you please read

19     the handwritten part.  What does it say here?

20        A.   It says: "Pekic informed the administration of the crime police

21     about this so that they will be able to issue a search warrant and inform

22     the Serbian MUP thereof."

23             This is a daily report.  It was our obligation to send daily

24     reports on all the changes that took place in our camp.  This was a

25     change and a wanted notice had to be issued, and the handwritten remarks

Page 27605

 1     were probably added in the minister's office.

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's now look at the following

 3     document.  4D353 is the number of the document --

 4             JUDGE PROST: [Realtime transcript read in error, "Madam Fauveau"]

 5     Mr. Lazarevic, just before you leave the document, I don't know how

 6     significant it is, but in the transcript at page 18, line 8 and 9, it

 7     talks about the document recording 251 police trainees and 31 recruits,

 8     whereas the document itself refers to 201 conscripts and 35 recruits.  So

 9     I think the transcript is probably in error.  I don't know if it was

10     translation or what it was, just for clarity of the record.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  You are absolutely

12     correct, and it does say 201 military conscripts.

13             [Interpretation] 4D353 is the document I would kindly ask the

14     Court to produce.  Again, this is another daily report from the training

15     camp on Jahorina.  The assistant commander of the special police brigade

16     sent this document to the Ministry of the Interior, and the date is the

17     1st of August, 1995.

18        Q.   Does this document also bear your signature?

19        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

20        Q.   And again, we can see a handwritten remark:  Pekic told Bijeljina

21     UKP, crime police administration, about this deserter to issue a wanted

22     notice and inform the MUP, the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia.

23             Does this tell you something about who had the authority to issue

24     wanted notice and bring the deserter in?

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  If I could add something to what my colleague,

Page 27606

 1     Judge Prost, said.  Line 25 of page 18 describes the words of Judge Prost

 2     as being those of Madam Fauveau.  That's not correct, so the transcript

 3     will be corrected in due course.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And now that we have seen the two documents -- I apologise.  I

 6     can see now that you have not answered my question about the authority

 7     over issuing wanted notices.  Does this document illustrate that?

 8        A.   Obviously, neither the training camp nor the command of the

 9     special police brigade were authorised to issue wanted notices.

10        Q.   And now that we have seen the two documents, do they show that

11     there were both recruits and military conscripts in the camp, and do

12     these documents also show what kind of training they underwent?

13        A.   The number of 35 recruits had already started their training

14     according to plan, and this was just the continuation of the

15     implementation of this plan.  And as for the 200 military conscripts,

16     i.e. deserters, we only did the most basic infantry training starting

17     with the lining up, moving, greetings, and then we took it day by day.

18     Our situation gradually improved.

19        Q.   And now tell me whether the deserters received any theoretical

20     education.

21        A.   No.  There was nothing by way of theory.

22        Q.   You've already told us about the deserters' training, and you

23     said that their training differed from the other categories.  Was it

24     better, more intense, less intense?

25        A.   It was much simpler, and it had to be forced upon them, if I may

Page 27607

 1     put it that way.

 2        Q.   How long did their training last?  Was it shorter than the

 3     training of the other categories of individuals?  I am referring to the

 4     two categories that we referred to; i.e., police trainees and recruits

 5     who were serving their -- in the units of the Ministry of the Interior.

 6        A.   Their training was really short, maybe not even a month, and then

 7     they would be sent off into battle.  Our comment was that they started

 8     resembling soldiers.

 9        Q.   Now that you have said that, in your view were the deserters

10     really capable of participating in combat activities?  Did you enable

11     them to do that?

12        A.   Since they had all served in the army before, they had all

13     undergone compulsory military service, they did not differ much from any

14     other members of the army of Republika Srpska.  This particular

15     preparation was not enough if it had been the only thing, but it could

16     do.

17        Q.   Did you ever learn that one of the units composed of deserters

18     was supposed to be sent off to Srebrenica or was to be engaged in the

19     events surrounding Srebrenica?

20        A.   I believe that this was on the 11th of July, 1995, when the first

21     unit -- actually, the first company from the camp was lined up and sent

22     on a mission.  At that time, I was really busy.  I was over the head, and

23     my memory is jogged by the subsequent dates.

24        Q.   Tell me, did you find out where that company went?

25        A.   I only found that they were heading in the direction of Bratunac.

Page 27608

 1        Q.   Were you personally present when the unit was preparing to leave

 2     or when it left?

 3        A.   On a number of occasions, yes, but briefly while passing by.

 4        Q.   To the best of your recollection, was the departure of the unit a

 5     departure that had been previously planned, or was the unit suddenly

 6     engaged and sent off?

 7        A.   All this happened all of a sudden.  We in the camp were also

 8     surprised.

 9        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how many individuals were there

10     in that unit?

11        A.   If you have the first company that we mentioned in mind, perhaps

12     about a hundred men.

13        Q.   Tell me, were all these men in the company deserters?

14        A.   Yes, apart from the company commander and the instructor from the

15     brigade command.

16        Q.   Tell me, as far as you can remember, what sort of weapons were

17     they issued with when they left?

18        A.   They had automatic and semi-automatic rifles.

19        Q.   And tell me, apart from these weapons what sort of equipment were

20     they given, if they were given any particular kind of equipment?

21        A.   I think they had a minor quantity of flak jackets - I don't know

22     what make, perhaps Borovo ones - and they had camouflage uniforms; the

23     colours were simple colours, and that was all.

24        Q.   Were they given heavier weapons, perhaps grenades or something

25     like that?

Page 27609

 1        A.   No.  We didn't have any grenades.

 2        Q.   Can you tell me who the commander of the unit was, the commander

 3     of that company that left on that occasion?

 4        A.   On the 11th of July, 1995, Mendeljevic [Realtime transcript read

 5     in error, "Mendarovic"] Djuric led the 1st company.  It's not Mendarovic.

 6     It's Mendeljevic, LJ.

 7        Q.   Very well.  This will be corrected.  This often happens when we

 8     have names.  What I wanted to ask you is whether you saw Ljubomir

 9     Borovcanin at any point in time when this unit of deserters was setting

10     off?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Do you remember how this unit was transported to Bratunac?

13        A.   I think buses were used.

14        Q.   Did you know that that unit, that company, was to be part of a

15     joint-MUP forces and Mr. Borovcanin had been designated as the commander

16     of those forces?

17        A.   I wasn't aware of that at the time.

18        Q.   And let me ask you the following:  Do you know that another

19     company was sent to the wider area of Bratunac?

20        A.   Yes, a day or two after the 1st company.

21        Q.   This was also a company of deserters from Jahorina?

22        A.   It was the same.

23        Q.   And tell me, do you know who issued the order?  Did an order

24     arrive, an order that you saw with regard to sending this 2nd company

25     there?  Did you hear anything about this if you didn't personally receive

Page 27610

 1     such an order?

 2        A.   I can't remember, but such an order could only have come from the

 3     police forces staff.

 4        Q.   When you say the "police forces staff," are you referring to the

 5     staff in Tron that we have already spoken about?

 6        A.   Yes.  These were matters that they were responsible for.

 7        Q.   And tell me now, do you know where these companies, the 1st or

 8     the 2nd company, stayed while they were in that area?

 9        A.   I don't know because I wasn't familiar with that area, in any

10     case, with the area of Bratunac.

11        Q.   Do you perhaps know that while they were there in the field they

12     carried out certain activities, and if they did, what kind of activities?

13        A.   I'm not certain that I know anything about that.

14        Q.   And one more question about the matter.  Do you know who was in

15     command of these companies, or rather, were they subordinated to anyone,

16     and if so, to whom?

17        A.   I think it was quite natural that the chief of the camp commanded

18     these companies.  As to whom they were subordinated to in the field, I

19     don't know.

20        Q.   Tell me, as far as you can remember, can you remember how long

21     these units stayed in that area around Srebrenica?

22        A.   I think it was between for six and eight days.

23        Q.   Tell me, now, did the members of the unit, did the deserters

24     having stayed in that area around Srebrenica return to the centre, to the

25     training centre, on Jahorina?

Page 27611

 1        A.   Yes, most of them returned to Jahorina, although some were

 2     wounded and some were perhaps even killed in the action.  But some, since

 3     they were near Drina, near the river Drina, had the opportunity of

 4     deserting again.

 5        Q.   Tell me, now, did some of the deserters or some of the members of

 6     the special police brigade ever tell you anything about the tasks that

 7     they had during that period while they were in the field?

 8        A.   No, they didn't tell me anything about that.  If anything was

 9     said, it was to the effect that they had to secure roads and do things

10     like that.  I'm not certain whether these are memories I have that date

11     back to that period or whether they are subsequent memories due to the

12     media, et cetera.

13        Q.   Tell me, do you know anything about the events that took place in

14     July 1995?  Do you have either personal knowledge, or did you receive

15     information about such events?  Do you have any knowledge about events in

16     a place called Sandici?

17        A.   I don't have any direct information, only information that

18     ordinary people had, information that ordinary people had through

19     television, the newspaper, et cetera.

20        Q.   Do you have any direct or indirect knowledge?  Did you hear

21     anything from deserters or members of the special police brigade with

22     regard to events on the 13th of July, 1995, in the agricultural

23     cooperative in Kravica on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road?

24        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that.  All I know about Kravica is what I

25     learned from the news, when there were reports on Serbs who had been

Page 27612

 1     killed at the beginning of 1993, at the time of Orthodox Christmas 1993.

 2        Q.   I think part of your answer to the previous question hasn't been

 3     recorded in the transcript.  Did you say that you didn't even know where

 4     Sandici was?

 5        A.   No, I don't know where Sandici is located, and I still don't know

 6     where Sandici is located.

 7        Q.   And tell me, when returning from the field, what was the status

 8     of these deserters?  Did they continue to receive training?  Were they

 9     provided with any additional training?

10        A.   I think that we still trained them for a while.  Most of them

11     agreed to bear the arms and wear the uniforms of the Republika Srpska

12     army.

13        Q.   And tell me, after this event, were these people asked to join

14     the army or the MUP of the Republika Srpska?  Did they join these bodies

15     or both of them?

16        A.   If we believed that the men were valuable and if they accepted

17     the offer to remain in police units, well, in that case, they remained in

18     the police units, whereas the others were sent to military units, or

19     rather, they were handed over to the Republika Srpska army.

20        Q.   Just a few more questions before we move on to another subject.

21     Can you tell me whether the Jahorina centre also provided training in the

22     second half of 1995?

23        A.   We've been discussing the period during which it was a training

24     camp, and after this situation with the deserters, I can't remember

25     exactly, but I think that it was in August or September over 200 men

Page 27613

 1     arrived to do their military service.  I don't know the exact number of

 2     recruits concerned.  They were young conscripts, and they came to do

 3     their military service, and from that time onwards, the name of the

 4     centre was a centre for training, and we had a new structure for command

 5     and control.

 6             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's have a look at

 7     the following document, 4D95.  It's a report for the special police

 8     brigade for the period January to September 1995; although, here it says

 9     it's up to the 15th of October, 1995.  What I would like to have a look

10     at is page 5 of the B/C/S version of the document, and it's page 4 in the

11     English version.

12        Q.   Can you see that under number -- under Roman (iv) it says

13     "training."

14             In the second paragraph, it says, In the period from the 19th of

15     June, 1995, until the 2nd of August, 1995, training was provided for 205

16     deserters who had been brought into the camp for taking in and training

17     deserters.  They had been brought in from SR Yugoslavia.  It says,

18     Currently on the training camp on Jahorina, there are 184 recruits who

19     are doing their military service in the Ministry of the Interior of

20     Republika Srpska.

21             Tell me, does this correspond to what you can remember about that

22     period and to what you can remember about the number of recruits who were

23     doing their military service in the MUP?

24        A.   Well, this is a report for a nine-month period.  It's been

25     compiled on the basis of the monthly reports for the year, although at

Page 27614

 1     the time we didn't have any deserters, but this is mentioned on the basis

 2     of previous reports and dates provided.  But at the time, we were working

 3     with recruits, and this the correct number of recruits that we were

 4     working with.  We are talking about the regular army here.

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] Very well.  And before we have

 6     the break, I'd like to have a look at one more document, 4D94.  It's a

 7     report on the work of the Republika Srpska MUP in 1995.  Let's have a

 8     look at page 6 in the document, in the B/C/S version.  It's page 2 in the

 9     English version.  Can we please zoom in just a little.

10        Q.   Now, what I would like to hear from you is this:  I would like to

11     draw your attention to paragraphs 4, 5, and 6 in this document.  In

12     paragraph 4, it says that in March 1995 a training course for policemen

13     was organised for 195 trainees.  Then in the following paragraph, it says

14     that the instructor team also trained 202 military conscripts on Jahorina

15     and the course lasted two months and that in June, 235 military

16     conscripts who are serving in the MUP units are being trained on Jahorina

17     in a centre that had just been established.  Is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.  This is just a compilation of monthly reports, which just

19     repeats the things that we have already discussed here dealing with the

20     training course for policemen, i.e., people whom police units sent for

21     additional training.  The instruction team also trained military

22     conscripts on Jahorina, and the course lasted for two months.  Those were

23     military conscripts that were brought in from the federal republic of

24     Yugoslavia, i.e., deserters, and this indeed was the time when the

25     training centre on Jahorina had been established based on the camp for

Page 27615

 1     reception, and there we at that moment had 235 a recruits or -- who are

 2     serving their military service in the police.

 3        Q.   And we can see all the three categories that underwent training

 4     in the training camp on Jahorina, and we can also see the time intervals

 5     when their training was organised.

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   And now just one more question about this topic.  According to

 8     your recollection, how long for did the centre continue to operate?

 9        A.   I believe that it was until maybe February or March, perhaps,

10     when we received an order to bring our operations to an end on Mount

11     Jahorina, to vacate the facilities of the Jahorina Hotel that would be

12     prepared for the accommodation of refugees from the municipalities of

13     Ilijas, Vogosca, and Ilidza, I believe.  There was a time when Serbs were

14     leaving en mass, they were leaving Sarajevo en mass.

15        Q.   Just for the clarity of the record, I would like to ask you

16     something.  What year are we talking about?

17        A.   1996, the beginning of 1996, and I believe that it was in the

18     month of March, but I'm not sure.

19        Q.   Very well.

20             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I am going to go on to the another topic, so

21     maybe it's a convenient time to the adjourn.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic, we will have a

23     25-minute break.  Thank you.

24                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

Page 27616

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.  How much longer?

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I believe 30 more

 3     minutes.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Sir, I would like us to move on to a completely different

 7     subject, which is informing within the special police brigade.

 8             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's first look at document

 9     4D509.

10        Q.   This is a report on the engagement in combat of the special

11     police brigade in the Majevica theater of war in 1995 -- in April 1995.

12             Very well.  Could we please first look at the cover page that is

13     in front of us, and now we will have the English version as well.  I've

14     already described the nature of the document.  Have you had an occasion

15     to see this and documents of this type?

16        A.   Yes.  This is a very customary way of reporting, was carried out

17     in the police.

18             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the last page

19     in B/C/S.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Off mic.

21             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you recognise Mr. Borovcanin's handwriting in this report as

23     the person who submitted the report?

24        A.   That's Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin's initial.

25        Q.   In terms of the form of this report, would this be a typical

Page 27617

 1     report on the engagement of the special police brigade?

 2        A.   Yes, very typical.

 3        Q.   What is the nature of this report?  Is that an external report or

 4     an internal report within the special police brigade?

 5        A.   This is internal reporting.

 6        Q.   And now, based on the information entered in such an internal

 7     report, what happens to the information next?

 8        A.   This is reporting to the immediate superior.  I suppose that this

 9     followed some sort of verbal reporting, and this report subsequently

10     serves as part of a future compilation report, which is sent out monthly

11     or quarterly or annually, and it is filed.

12             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at the following

13     document, which is P92.  Let's look at the last page of this report,

14     please.  The bottom part, if this could be zoomed in.

15        Q.   Do you see the signature on this report?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Is this Mr. Borovcanin's signature?

18        A.   I'm sure that this is not his handwriting.

19             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's move on to

20     4D510.  This is another report on the engagement of the forces of the

21     special police brigade and other forces in the Srebrenica '95 operation.

22     As far as the wording of the document is concerned and its contents,

23     these are practically identical with the previous document but this copy

24     also has a cover page unlike the other ones.

25             Can we please look at the last page of the document.  Very well.

Page 27618

 1     Can we now move to the last segment of the document.  Can we scroll down

 2     a little, please?  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Can you see the initial on the document, and can you tell us who

 4     the initial belongs to?  The document has been initialed --

 5        A.   This seems to be the same report, but this is now Mr. Ljubomir

 6     Borovcanin's initial.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I think it would be appropriate for

 8     the witness to take off his earphones at this point because I would like

 9     to the address the Trial Chamber and maybe have some stipulation with my

10     colleagues.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's see if he understands English first.  Do you

12     understand English?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few words, maybe.  Yes and no.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's too little, but not a few.  All right.

15     Remove your headphones, please.

16             You are addressing the Trial Chamber in English, I suppose --

17             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes, that's what I'm going to

18     do.

19             Your Honours, the position of Mr. Borovcanin Defence, and I

20     believe the Prosecution shares the same position, is that this is the

21     original of the document.  Last time, when Mr. Borovcanin was on his

22     custodial release, he managed to find two of these reports, the first one

23     that we saw from the Majevica theater of war, and this is the other one.

24     As soon as we found those documents, we gave two originals to the

25     Prosecution in order to just make all additional checkings, whether they

Page 27619

 1     have any objections to this, and I was informed by Mr. Thayer that they

 2     can confirm that these are original documents.  Those are 4D509 and

 3     4D510.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you confirm that, Mr. Thayer?

 5             MR. THAYER:  I do, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Then we can proceed now.

 7             All right.  It's okay.  This is harmless.  So let's proceed

 8     straightaway.

 9             Mr. Lazarevic.

10             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can I go back to the first page of 4D510, please.  This document

12     seems to have been drafted on the 5th of September, 1995, and it concerns

13     a period in July 1995.  Can you explain, why was the report drafted in

14     September 1995?  What might be the reason?

15        A.   I suppose that the person who drafted the report did not find the

16     time to do it sooner.  However, for the purposes of collective reporting

17     and statistical reasons, he subsequently drafted it upon the insistence

18     of his superior.

19        Q.   We saw a report from Majevica as well.  Would you say that this

20     would be the same type of reporting as the previous one?  The report that

21     we have in front of us, would that be the same kind of report as the one

22     from Majevica that we saw previously?

23        A.   Yes.  That's the same kind of reporting that fall under the

24     obligation to file reports.

25             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at the following

Page 27620

 1     document, which is 4D511.  This is a report on the work of the special

 2     police brigade for June 1995.  The document contains three pages; it's a

 3     three-page long document.  Can we please take a look at all the three

 4     pages before we start commenting upon the document.

 5             And now, can we please dwell upon the third page of the document

 6     a bit longer.  And can we please scroll down, just a little bit.  In the

 7     bottom left part of the document, we see the initials SM/VZ.

 8        Q.   Do you know who the initials belonged to?

 9        A.   These are my initials, Milan, and there was the typist, Veljko

10     Zeljko.  I often had to draft these reports, these monthly reports.  They

11     were compiled on the basis of reports from all units of the brigade and

12     police.

13        Q.   Very well.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

15             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I just note that I think we are in

16     open session, and I don't know whether we need to do something about

17     that.  I don't want to say anything further.

18             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, maybe it is --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I think -- I think it's safe enough.  We can

20     proceed.  But thank you very much, Mr. Thayer, for pointing that out.

21     Thank you.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Tell me, the report we have just seen, is it a typical monthly

24     report from the special police brigade?

25        A.   Yes.  There were particular reports that were also drafted for

Page 27621

 1     each month.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Let's just go back to the first page very briefly.

 3     We can see a number in the top left-hand corner; is that correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   And monthly reports had such protocol numbers, monthly reports

 6     from the special brigade?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Each one was -- if we remember the previous ones, the report on

 9     action in the Srebrenica battlefield in Majevica, they didn't have such

10     numbers.  Is that because they were internal documents or documents that

11     are sent -- monthly reports that are sent, reports from the brigade?

12        A.   Internal reports that we had a look at form part of this report,

13     but only in so far as they are a collection of reports, a summary of

14     reports.

15             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's have a look at

16     one more document, 4D95.  It's a report on the work of the special police

17     brigade for the period January to September 1995, and it says that the

18     report concerns a period from the 1st of January, 1995, until the 15th of

19     October, 1995.

20        Q.   Is this an external report from the brigade?

21        A.   Well, this is a report addressed to the Ministry of Internal

22     Affairs.

23        Q.   And here, we can also see that there is a protocol number on this

24     document; isn't that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 27622

 1        Q.   And tell me, you've already seen this document.  I won't go into

 2     its contents, but is it a typical periodical report from the special

 3     police brigade?  If you like, have a look at it.  Refresh your memory.

 4        A.   Yes, it's a periodic report on the brigade's work.  We're dealing

 5     with nine months.

 6        Q.   I just have a few more questions.  In the Republika Srpska MUP,

 7     were there a number of individuals or just one individual whose surname

 8     was Borovcanin?

 9        A.   In the area around Sarajevo, this is a well known surname.  In

10     the police force itself, I know five or six Borovcanins, some of whom are

11     my friends.

12        Q.   But to be a little more concrete, in the special police brigade

13     were there a number of individuals who had the surname "Borovcanin"?

14        A.   In addition to Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin, Mladenko Borovcanin, the

15     deputy command of the brigade; and Danko Borovcanin, a member of one of

16     the brigade detachments; and Borovcanin in the Sarajevo centre of public

17     security had this surname; and there were some others, too.

18        Q.   Tell me, was Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin usually addressed as

19     Ljubisa?

20        A.   Yes.  In fact, there were very few who were aware of the fact

21     that his name was Ljubomir.

22        Q.   And do you know that in the MUP there was one other individual

23     whose name was Ljubisa Borovcanin?

24        A.   I know someone called Ljubisa Borovcanin.  He was a -- he was in

25     the police in Sokolac.

Page 27623

 1             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at the e-court

 2     system, document P3393.  It's a dispatch dated the 10th of March, 1997.

 3     It concerned a proposal for the ranks of authorised officials in the

 4     forensic -- in the crime police in Sarajevo, in the CJB.

 5             If we have a look at the last paragraph in the document, a

 6     suggestion is made that Ljubisa Borovcanin be granted the rank of major,

 7     a chief of the section for economy crime prevention.  Is that the --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, an inspector for

 9     economic crime.

10             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Is that the Borovcanin from

11     Sokolac, the one I mentioned?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the man I mentioned.

13             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Is that the same man as this person here in the courtroom, or are

15     these individuals different individuals?

16        A.   They are different individuals, absolutely.

17        Q.   A few more questions for the end.  Tell me, when did the

18     Borovcanin Defence team contact you?

19        A.   In the summer of this year.  That was the first time.

20        Q.   Did you then have other contact, and for how long, if so?

21        A.   Yes, very briefly.  In September, I think.

22        Q.   Apart from these two occasions and excluding the time that we

23     have spent on preparation together here in The Hague, did you have any

24     other contact with the Borovcanin Defence team?

25        A.   No.

Page 27624

 1        Q.   And just a few more questions before I conclude.  Your testimony

 2     shows that you obviously know Mr. Borovcanin.  Since when have you known

 3     him?

 4        A.   I have known him when -- in the winter of 1993, 1994, he was

 5     designated as the deputy brigade commander.

 6        Q.   Tell me, what is your opinion of Mr. Borovcanin?

 7        A.   I think he is a man who is exceptionally talented, well educated,

 8     dignified, a man without vices.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.

10        A.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  I notice Mr. Borovcanin would like to communicate

12     with you or he doesn't agree with the witness or is there ...

13             MR. LAZAREVIC:  With Your Honour's permission.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to communicate with your lawyer?  Yeah,

15     he does.

16             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Sir, I must

17     apologise for this slip of the tongue.  I mentioned his name.

18        Q.   Can you tell me whether you know whether Mr. Borovcanin in the

19     course of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was wounded at some point in

20     time?  If so, what do you remember about the event?

21        A.   I was on the battlefield with him when he was seriously wounded.

22     I went to visit him in hospital in Banja Luka.  He was very seriously

23     wounded, and so I was surprised that three or four months later he had

24     managed to recover and return to carry out his task.

25        Q.   Can you tell me when this happened, approximately?

Page 27625

 1        A.   I think it was in December -- no, November, towards the end of

 2     November or between October and November.  The first time I visited him

 3     in the hospital in Banja Luka was on the 21st of November, 1994.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to have a look

 5     at all the documents.  Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to put them

 6     into the e-court system.  The first one is a letter of release dated the

 7     9th of November, 1994.  Could we have it on the ELMO, please?  It's a

 8     letter of discharge from the hospital.  [In English] I apologise, also,

 9     to my colleagues from the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber.  I was not

10     sure whether I would use these documents.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Feel free to have a look at it, have a look at

12     the entire document, which is by your side.  I think it's quite clear.

13     We can see that Mr. Borovcanin was wounded as a result of an explosion -

14     that's what it says here - "and his stomach was wounded and his lower

15     limbs.  This was the result of firearms (mine)."  Do you remember this?

16     Do you remember these events in the wounding of Mr. Borovcanin?  Is this

17     what you were mentioning?

18        A.   Yes, that's what I've been talking about.  I was in the field.  I

19     remember that period.  I remember that event, and this letter confirms

20     the fact that he was taken to the closest hospital, and then he was

21     transferred to another hospital in Banja Luka.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And finally one more document I

23     would like to have a look at.  Could we place it on the ELMO.

24             We seem to have a minor technical problem with this.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  I suggest in order not to lose time that we have a

Page 27626

 1     look at it, and Mr. Thayer has a look at it, and then any of your

 2     colleagues who wish to have a look at it, very quickly, and then give it

 3     to the witness.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I am illiterate in the language, so

 5     I'll just accept my friend's representation of what it is.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Does anyone wish to have a look at it

 7     from the Defence teams?  Okay.  We can proceed.  Eva, give it to the

 8     witness, please, and we will proceed.

 9             You're going to tender this document in any case, right?

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, yes, Your Honour.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, you've now had the opportunity of having a

12     look at this document.  It's a confirmation dated the 8th of August,

13     2000, from the ministry of veterans of the war in Republika Srpska.  Can

14     you tell us what level of disability was established for Mr. Borovcanin?

15        A.   Luckily, I don't have such a confirmation, but Mr. Borovcanin,

16     according to this document, is a war invalid of the sixth level or

17     category.

18        Q.   And we have a percentage here?

19        A.   60 per cent of permanent disability, is what it says.

20        Q.   Thank you very much.  I have no further questions for you.

21        A.   You're welcome.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No questions for the witness.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Nikolic.

25             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no questions, Mr. President.

Page 27627

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic.

 2             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

 3     questions.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau.  Thank you, Madam Nikolic.

 5             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no question, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam.  Mr. Josse.

 7             MR. JOSSE:  One question, please.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:

 9        Q.   Witness, I just want to ask you this.  You described yesterday

10     how in late July 1992 after leaving Jahorina you joined a unit that was

11     operating at a checkpoint in the direction of Sekovici, and you went on

12     to say that that unit had been tasked with neutralizing the Yellow Wasps.

13     Who was the leader of that unit, the unit that you joined?

14        A.   The members of my unit that I mentioned, and I said that towards

15     the end of July and perhaps on the 1st of August, 1992, I said I met them

16     at the checkpoint of the Zvornik-to-Sekovici road.  Well, at that time,

17     this unit was led by our first command of the special unit, Mr. Milenko

18     Karisik.

19        Q.   Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Josse.  Mr. Sarapa.

21             MR. SARAPA:  No questions, thank you.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Thayer.

23             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to you and

24     to Your Honours.  Good afternoon, everyone.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

Page 27628

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   My name is Nelson Thayer.  I will be asking you just a couple of

 4     questions on behalf of the Prosecution this afternoon.  You testified

 5     yesterday that a police forces staff was set up in February or March of

 6     1995 at Jahorina.  Do you recall that, sir?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And you told us that the reason for setting up that police forces

 9     command staff there was to obtain operative information but also to

10     prepare for an expected spring offensive by the Muslims; is that correct?

11        A.   It's not correct in that we didn't have to obtain any

12     information.  We already had the information on the basis of which such a

13     staff was established.  But given that way events unfolded, we could see

14     that everything had been correctly predicted and that the information

15     was, in fact, correct.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, that anticipated spring offensive, in fact, occurred,

17     did it not, as an attempt to break the siege of Sarajevo?

18        A.   I don't know the motives of the enemy side, but it is true that

19     the offensive gradually became more intense throughout that year, 1995.

20        Q.   And you told us today about a new police forces staff that was

21     established in Pale sometime later, perhaps in May or June of 1995?

22        A.   That's true.  And this was just an innovation and raising the

23     level and paying more attention to certain things because the person who

24     was appointed the commander of the staff was the assistant minister or

25     the deputy minister, whatever Mr. Kovac was at that time.

Page 27629

 1        Q.   Now, you were shown a number of documents yesterday that were

 2     signed by Dusko Jevic as the commander of the staff of the police forces

 3     Jahorina-Trnovo.  Those documents were dated April of 1995.  Do you

 4     recall those documents, sir?

 5        A.   I remember, yes.

 6        Q.   So just the one thing that I wanted to clarify from what you said

 7     today was, was that police forces staff co-existing with the staff in

 8     Pale once the Pale police forces staff was established?

 9        A.   No.  I just said that the situation gained a more serious

10     dimension.  The staff on Jahorina ceased to exist, and its tasks and

11     duties were taken over by the staff that was housed in the Tron facility,

12     in that catering facility.

13        Q.   In the Tron facility?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And did you remain in Jahorina, or did you transfer to Pale or

16     travel between the two?  Can you just share that with us?

17        A.   I believe that it was obvious from my previous testimony.  The

18     staff was given a camp for training, and then this became the training

19     centre.  So we never moved from Pale.  Our dealings with the staff in

20     Tron were of a purely technical nature.

21        Q.   Okay.  So I just wanted to clarify.  You remained at the training

22     camp in Jahorina and travelled to Pale from time to time when you had

23     something administrative or technical that brought you there; is that

24     fair to say?

25        A.   Yes.  When we needed assistance, when we needed logistics

Page 27630

 1     support, and when we needed to submit our reports.

 2        Q.   Now, you no doubt were aware of the military activities that were

 3     underway during this period of time on the Sarajevo front given your

 4     proximity to it and the fact, perhaps, that you actually lived there for

 5     some time.  Am I right?

 6        A.   You're right.  I was not an eyewitness of all these events, but I

 7     was aware of them.

 8        Q.   And as I think you've alluded to, the offensive intensified as

 9     did the Serb forces' response to it and activities with respect to it; in

10     other words, the fighting became fierce in June and early July.  Would

11     you agree?

12        A.   Yes, I would.  I believe that the Muslims were waiting for just

13     one more thing, and that was support by the NATO airforce.

14        Q.   And there were MUP forces engaged in Srbinje, at the Lucevik

15     facility, Mount Trebevic, correct?

16        A.   I am not aware of this facility, what is the Lucevik facility?

17        Q.   The Lucevik facility, sir?  If you're not familiar with it, I'll

18     move on.

19        A.   Well, this is something in the territory of Trnovo.

20        Q.   Right, sir.  And that's what I'm really talking about is there

21     was fierce fighting during this period of time, June, early July, in the

22     Trnovo battlefield.  Can we agree on that?

23        A.   Yes, I agree, but the only thing I know about that is that it was

24     really bad.  It was terrible.

25        Q.   And do you recall, sir, that Ljubomir Borovcanin was commanding

Page 27631

 1     those MUP forces on the Trnovo front?  General Borovcanin here today,

 2     just so the record is clear.

 3        A.   I don't remember, but I believe that you're right.  Mount

 4     Jahorina is on the way from Pale to Trnovo.  Jahorina was on that route,

 5     so I believe you're right.

 6        Q.   Now, I just want to ask you about one other document.

 7             MR. THAYER:  If we could have 4D251 e-court, very quickly,

 8     please.  And if we could scroll down on the B/C/S just a little bit.

 9     Perfect.  Thank you.

10        Q.   Sir, you were asked a number of questions yesterday about the

11     police officers' training course and the curriculum and who the

12     instructors were.  Let me just ask you first, I think you told us that

13     policing theory would have been taught by MUP instructors, professors or

14     professional instructors that were not members of the special police

15     brigade; is that correct?

16        A.   I said that the instructors were professors from the school of

17     the interior affairs, that is, lecturers; and instructors were from the

18     police brigade, from the special police brigade.  This is just an

19     accident.  Dragomir Zivkovic was a deputy and a commander of a detachment

20     in Trebinje, and it seems that most of his policemen from his unit

21     attended the course.  That's why he was their most senior officer while

22     they were on the training course.

23        Q.   Okay, sir.  I didn't mean to distract you with the document just

24     yet.  I was just asking you a general question.  So I am not interested

25     in that individual that you were just asking about.  But following up on

Page 27632

 1     what you've just told us, is it fair to say that in terms of the sort of

 2     hands-on instruction, shall we say, the diving, martial arts,

 3     marksmanship, that type of instruction would be been conducted by members

 4     of the special police brigade during the police training course that you

 5     talked about?

 6        A.   Yes, those were mostly pre-war members of special police

 7     brigades.  They were masters in martial arts, and while they were in

 8     their units they were trained for very specialist tasks, such as diving,

 9     mountaineering and other such tasks.  The school of internal affairs did

10     not have such professionals on their staff.

11        Q.   Now, if we look at this document, sir, just for my last question.

12     If you see in the second paragraph in your language where it refers to

13     the current agreement reached with the special police brigade deputy

14     commander.  Do you see that paragraph, sir?  And it refers to three

15     names.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You were asked by my friend yesterday about the first and third

18     names, and I think you identified them as not being members of the

19     special police brigade.  I want to ask you about the person in the middle

20     that's listed here, Ljuban Poprzen.  Who was he, sir?

21        A.   A colleague of mine, a pre-war special.  Before the war, he was a

22     member of a special police unit.

23        Q.   And he, in fact, became an instructor at Jahorina, did he not,

24     sir?

25        A.   He became an instructor even before Jahorina was established.

Page 27633

 1     From 1982 to 1992, he underwent continuous training courses in the

 2     special unit of the former republican Ministry of the Interior in

 3     Sarajevo.  He was a man who had undergone a 10-year-long training stint

 4     that enabled him to perform these tasks.

 5        Q.   And in 1995, he was a special police brigade instructor, correct,

 6     sir?

 7        A.   Yes.  And a very serious one.

 8        Q.   Sir, I thank you.  I have no further questions.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Is there redirect, Mr. Lazarevic?

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, maybe it will be convenient to take

11     a break now, and I will discuss whether I have some questions for

12     re-examination of the witness.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We will have a 25-minute break now.

15     Thank you.

16                           --- Recess taken at 5.10 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 5.41 p.m.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  [French on English channel]

19             One moment because we have...

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Apologies, mistake by the interpreters.  Wrong

21     microphone.  Apologies.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  That's okay.  Now you can proceed,

23     Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I just wanted to alert you all to

25     a potential --

Page 27634

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is the witness going to return to the courtroom or

 2     not?

 3             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No, Your Honour.  I don't think there is any need

 4     from our side because there will be no redirect.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I am talking -- I'm referring to the

 6     curtains, actually.

 7             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is just a potential scheduling -- well,

 9     problem.  As you know, Mr. Dunjic, the expert, it looks like he will be

10     testifying tomorrow if -- we think.  And you may recall that Chris

11     Mitchell handled him the last time he was here, and Chris has just

12     earlier in the day gone home with what looks like a pretty bad flu, and

13     he was the one lawyer that was prepared and learned the report, had the

14     documents ready in what was a technical situation.  So we're not sure

15     he's going to be back tomorrow to be -- and it doesn't really look like

16     it, frankly.  We wanted him to get better.  So it's likely that any

17     cross-examination would have gone over the long holiday, but it would be

18     regrettable if that had to happen.  But I just wanted to alert you to

19     that.

20             Mr. Nicholls is now on the Karadzic team.  He is -- unless we

21     bring him in for a special appearance, he's just -- to let you know, he

22     is on another team, now.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's start from here.  You don't need this

Page 27635

 1     witness any further, Mr. Lazarevic?

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  We don't need him either, no?

 4     So we release the witness.  Madam Usher can thank him on our behalf and

 5     wish him a safe journey.

 6             The matter raised by Mr. McCloskey.  So Dunjic is not the first

 7     witness we have in line.  We have another one preceding him,

 8     Mr. Markovic.  How long do you expect your examination-in-chief of

 9     Mr. Markovic to last?  I know that you have given a forecast, but --

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Our estimate of 45 minutes stands.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  45 minutes.  And I don't estimate there will be any

12     particular cross-examination from the other Defence teams.  From the

13     Prosecution side?  Yes, Mr. Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, Mr. Vanderpuye says probably at the most an

15     hour and a half and, you know, given -- it may not even be that much.

16     But it's hard to say until we hear the direct, of course.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Mr. Bourgon.

18             MR. BOURGON:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon.

20             MR. BOURGON:  We estimated on behalf of Drago Nikolic 30 minutes,

21     and I will use the 30 minutes, Mr. President, and actually, I wanted to

22     advise the Trial Chamber that maybe I will go a bit over those 30

23     minutes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So that's -- thank you so much,

25     Mr. Bourgon.  So that's 45 plus 30, an hour and 15 minutes, and an hour

Page 27636

 1     and 15 minutes, roughly another hour, hour and a half, Prosecution.  That

 2     will take about three hours maximum, as I imagine, because I haven't

 3     heard anyone else showing an interest in cross-examining the next

 4     witness.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  There are no other witnesses available for...

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  No, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  No.  And Mr. Zivanovic, you haven't air-lifted an

 9     investigator?

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  This morning, I contacted witness and victims

11     unit, and they need the five working days to provide his visas.  So he

12     cannot come to The Hague before Friday, next Friday.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  This cross-examination of Dunjic, what

14     were your anticipations time-wise?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  An hour and a half is our estimate, and you know,

16     there's documents and other material that I have seen, that Mr. Mitchell

17     was showing me.  And I also forgot to mention, I can't be here until

18     about, well, 1.30 tomorrow because I'm at my son's graduation, so I can't

19     be here in the morning either.  So I would say about an hour, hour and a

20     half is our estimate.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  And how much time do you require for leading?

22             MR. GOSNELL:  We have 45 minutes estimated, but I must say --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  With Dunjic.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  -- with Professor Dunjic, but we may go slightly

25     over, not greatly over but slightly over.

Page 27637

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  So putting it all together, it seems that there is

 2     no chance that we come to the cross-examination of Dunjic tomorrow in any

 3     case.  It also seems that at most we may have half an hour of

 4     testimony -- half an hour of testimony.

 5             Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry, Mr. President, for interrupting.  We

 7     don't, of course, oppose the request by the Prosecution for an

 8     adjournment until Tuesday or until such time as Mr. Mitchell is

 9     available.  It would be our fervent request and hope that we could

10     present our examination-in-chief immediately prior to the beginning of

11     the cross-examination.  And as I say, it's not a particularly long

12     examination-in-chief.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We've given advance notice of the

14     problem.  I think much depends on how long we are going to take -- how

15     much time we are going to take with the next witness, first.  I think

16     we'll give you a decision tomorrow because if we are left with 15, 20

17     minutes, it's one thing.  If we are left with an hour or so, it's

18     another.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We'll give Mr. Mitchell a chance to

21     recover.  So we'll finish with this witness first, and then unless things

22     have changed and Mr. Mitchell is available tomorrow, we will adjourn

23     after that.

24             But if he is fit to come and resume his work, then, of course, we

25     will continue and we will proceed with Dunjic tomorrow.  Otherwise, we

Page 27638

 1     adjourn until Tuesday because Monday, as you will recall, we have to give

 2     the courtroom to the Krajisnik Appeals Chamber.

 3             All right.  Documents, Mr. Lazarevic.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, at this point I would kindly ask to

 5     deal with documents once this next witness finishes because I use a

 6     couple of documents which I only had hard copies.  We don't have numbers

 7     for these documents.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right --

 9             MR. LAZAREVIC:  -- if it's convenient.  I already spoke to my

10     colleagues.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  And Mr. Josse didn't make any use of any

12     documents.  Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  We had no documents, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  You had no documents either.  All right.  So that

15     matter is deferred until later.

16             The next witness, please.  Mr. Markovic.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good evening, Mr. Markovic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  And welcome to this Tribunal.  You have been

21     summoned as an expert witness by the Borovcanin Defence team.  Before you

22     start giving evidence, our rules require that you make a solemn

23     declaration to the effect that in the course of your testimony you will

24     be speaking the truth.  Madam Usher is going to give you the text of this

25     declaration.  Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn

Page 27639

 1     commitment with us.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  JOVO MARKOVIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

 7             Mr. Gosnell will be putting some questions to you in relation to

 8     the report that you prepared, and then he will be followed by others on

 9     cross-examination.

10             Mr. Gosnell.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12                           Examination by Mr. Gosnell:

13        Q.   Good evening, Mr. Markovic.  As I hope you recall, my name is

14     Chris Gosnell, and I will be asking you some questions on behalf of

15     Mr. Borovcanin.  Would you please state your full name and date of birth

16     for the record, please?

17        A.   Jovo Markovic.  I was born on the 30th of October, 1974.

18        Q.   Now, sir, your report is now before the Chamber, so we won't be

19     going through it chapter and verse.  I would like to ask you a few

20     questions to clarify and highlight some aspects of the report.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we please have Exhibit 4D617 on e-court,

22     please.

23        Q.   Sir, this is your curriculum vitae, and I would just like to ask

24     you a few questions about your curriculum vitae.  Could you tell us what

25     period of time you attended the military academy in Belgrade?

Page 27640

 1        A.   Yes.  I was at the academy from 1993 until 1997, which is when I

 2     graduated.

 3        Q.   Did you develop any specialisation while you were studying at the

 4     military academy?

 5        A.   Yes, naturally.  In the course of my education at the military

 6     academy, I was educated in the centre for communications or information

 7     and electronic surveillance.  The course programme had to do with that of

 8     an electro technician.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, I know you speak English quite well, and so you

10     understand my question immediately and can respond right away.  I would

11     simply ask you to observe a slight pause after the end of my question so

12     that the translators can finish translating.  Thank you.

13             Did you have occasion during those studies to work with portable

14     radio devices?

15        A.   Yes, that was one of the things that we studied at the military

16     academy.

17        Q.   And what did you do after graduating from the military academy?

18        A.   After graduating, I joined the Republika Srpska army in 1997.  I

19     was on active duty then.

20        Q.   And how long did you remain with the Republika Srpska army?

21        A.   As a member of the Republika Srpska army, well, I remained there

22     until 2007, which is when I moved from the army of Republika Srpska to

23     the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24        Q.   I'm sorry.  Could you simply repeat the last part of your answer?

25     Moved from the army of Republika Srpska to what institution?

Page 27641

 1        A.   As is well known, in 2'05, 2'06, there is a transition.  The law

 2     in Bosnia and Herzegovina was changed, and the army of Republika Srpska

 3     became an integral part of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 4     which were established in the 16th January, 2006.  And all members of the

 5     Republika Srpska army at that time automatically became members of the

 6     armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that clarification.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  Can we look at page 2 of this document, please.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, we see here that you rose up through the ranks of the

10     VRS.  Could you describe the various promotions and positions you held in

11     the VRS?

12        A.   Yes.  After I was received into the active duty service of the

13     Republika Srpska army, I was made commander of the signalling company in

14     the 108th Infantry Brigade.  I spent about two years in that position.  I

15     was made the chief of communications in that same brigade.

16             In the meantime, I finished cryptographic school at the military

17     academy.  It was in the school centre for communications, information,

18     technology, and electronics surveillance.  I held that post for two

19     years, after which I became commander of an independent communications

20     platoon.  It was directly subordinated to the General Staff of the army

21     of Republika Srpska.

22             While performing my duties as a commander of the communications

23     company, the company I was in command of was responsible for establishing

24     communications, of maintaining communications, for the needs of the army

25     of Republika Srpska.  The communications systems used were stationary.  I

Page 27642

 1     should emphasize this fact.  They weren't mobile.  And also within my

 2     unit, there was cryptographic station working for the needs of the

 3     Republika Srpska army General Staff.

 4        Q.   All right.  Sir, let me ask you.  You say that you use stationary

 5     communications devices.  Did you have occasion also to use portable

 6     communications devices, or did you use only stationary communication

 7     devices?

 8        A.   My unit used stationary devices, centrals and relay devices; but

 9     when performing their regular daily activities we used mobile radio units

10     that used frequencies of 140 to 180 megahertz, wavelengths of up to 2

11     metres.

12        Q.   All right.  And what position did you assume after being the

13     commander of the communications platoon that you've just described?

14        A.   After working as the company commander, I started working in the

15     Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.  I worked there in the

16     verifications centre of the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.

17     This centre controlled weapons.  When I say "controlled weapons," I am

18     referring to the military part of the Dayton Agreement, Article 2 and 4.

19     Article 2 has to do with establishing trust within the B&H; it's similar

20     to the Birac document from 1994 and 1999; and Article 4 had to do with

21     controlling weapons exclusively, weapons referred to in the Dayton

22     Agreement.  It's very similar to the agreement on conventional forces in

23     Europe.

24        Q.   Now, in that capacity, did you have any experience or use

25     portable communication devices?

Page 27643

 1        A.   Yes, we also used mobile radio units there of minor capacity,

 2     since the need wasn't that great.  But when controlling weapons, we used

 3     mobile radios so that the members of this mission could communicate with

 4     each other.

 5        Q.   And in the course of those responsibilities, did you have

 6     occasion to come in contact with the radio communication devices that had

 7     been in use over the previous, let's say, 20 years?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, your -- well, perhaps you could elaborate and tell us

10     what kind of contact you had or what you learned about those radio

11     communications devices?

12        A.   I'll go back a bit when I was the commander of the platoon and

13     the chief of communications in the 108th Infantry Brigade.  In 1997 and

14     1998, we worked on decommissioning weapons, old weapons, damaged weapons,

15     and radio devices, weapons, too, but radio devices.  I was responsible

16     exclusively for radio devices that were used in the war and that were no

17     longer of use -- or could no longer be used.  There were huge quantities

18     of radio devices that were no longer used because they couldn't be used

19     or they were defective.  We received radio devices from all sides, from

20     officers, soldiers who are either still members of the Republika Srpska

21     army or were former members of that army.  They would bring in such radio

22     devices in order to get rid of them in a certain sense; and on such

23     occasions, I had contact with various kinds of devices, radio devices

24     that had the same frequencies or they used the same frequencies.  They

25     were wavelengths of 2 metres, of 0.7 metres that these devices used.  And

Page 27644

 1     when I came in to see such devices, I noticed that the faults consisted

 2     of poor batteries that could practically not be used.  Often, mistakes

 3     were made when using such devices.  The antennas had been exchanged, for

 4     example.

 5        Q.   I'm sorry.  Sorry for interjecting.  Will you kindly just slow

 6     down a little bit for the interpreters and for the record.

 7        A.   I'll repeat some of what I said.  I came to see various radio

 8     devices.  I also came to see devices that used wavelengths of 2 metres

 9     and devices that used wavelengths of 0.7 metres.  As I have already said,

10     such devices often had batteries that were very weak or that couldn't be

11     used anymore, rechargeable batteries, for example.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I see from your CV that you were also a member of a

13     United Nations mission.  Can you tell us when that was?

14        A.   Yes.  I was a member of the peace mission of the UN in Ethiopia

15     and Eritrea as a military observer in 2005 and 2006.

16        Q.   And did you have occasion while working for that mission to use

17     portable communication devices?

18        A.   Yes, naturally.  This was part of my daily work over there

19     because when performing tasks of any kind in the field, it was necessary

20     to have a mobile radio unit.  This was necessary for each member.  If one

21     was using a vehicle, it was necessary to have at least one portable radio

22     device.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, before this report that you've prepared for

24     us and for the Chamber, had you previously prepared audibility reports

25     concerning portable communication devices, and if so, in what context?

Page 27645

 1        A.   Yes, naturally.  It was also part of my education at the military

 2     academy.  Naturally, after the military academy, after I had graduated

 3     when serving in the RS army, whenever one was to establish

 4     communications -- well, first, you would check to see that it was

 5     possible to establish communications by using a radio device.  One would

 6     use a map for such purposes.  It all depended on the configuration on the

 7     ground.

 8             When we confirmed that it was possible to establish

 9     communications by referring to the map, in such cases we would then

10     actually check to see whether this was possible by going into the field.

11        Q.   Thank you for that information.  Now, how was it that you came to

12     write this report?  Were you contacted by the Defence?

13        A.   Yes.  The Ministry of the Interior was contacted by the Defence

14     team; and afterwards, on behalf of the Ministry of Defence [as

15     interpreted] I drafted this report that you have here today.

16        Q.   Sir, I understand that the transcript says -- you first referred

17     to the Ministry of the Interior, but then there is a reference to the

18     Ministry of Defence.  Is that correct?

19        A.   No.  I said that the Ministry of the Interior was contacted by

20     the Defence team.  Mr. Sasa was the specific person, and then I started

21     drafting the report.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Let's now move to your report itself.  What

23     radio devices did you test for this report?

24        A.   I used two types of devices in both cases, Motorola devices.  The

25     first device uses a 2-metre wavelength, and the second one a wavelength

Page 27646

 1     of 0.7 metres.

 2        Q.   All right.  And what led you to test these two devices?

 3        A.   Well, two things.  Firstly, on the basis of the photograph that I

 4     saw, I recognized that it was a portable radio device on the base of the

 5     antenna on the device.  It was a radio device that used a wavelength of

 6     0.7 metres.  Because those antennas are quite specific, it's difficult to

 7     mistake those antennas for other types of antennas.  And the second thing

 8     is that I also used a device, a radio device, that used a wavelength of 2

 9     metres because these are the wavelengths that were used in the former

10     Yugoslavia, in all parts of the former Yugoslavia, and that includes

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina, naturally.

12        Q.   All right.  And to your knowledge, were there any other handheld

13     radio devices that were in use in the former Yugoslavia in 1995 other

14     than the two that you've just identified?

15        A.   No, not as far as I know.

16        Q.   Now, sir, is audibility between two radio devices determined by

17     the specifications of the transmitter or the receiver?

18        A.   On the whole, by the transmitter because the receiver has

19     standard characteristics.

20        Q.   All right.  So how does identifying the receiving device -

21     assuming that that's the case - how does that assist you in understanding

22     the nature of the transmitting device?

23        A.   Well, for the receiver to receive a signal from a transmitting

24     device, the characteristics should be identical.  If they're not and if

25     they don't use the same wavelengths, then reception is impossible.

Page 27647

 1        Q.   And, sir, can you tell us what the -- well, you've used the word

 2     "wavelengths" or it's been translated as "wavelengths."  Can you tell us

 3     what the frequency of the two devices -- the frequency range of the two

 4     devices that you tested is?

 5        A.   The frequency for the wavelength of 2 metres - and this naturally

 6     depends on the producer - is between 140 and 180 megahertz.  So that is

 7     the range of frequencies.  When it comes to wavelengths of 0.7 metres -

 8     and again, this all depends on the make of the device in question - the

 9     frequency is between 400 and 460 megahertz.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you conduct a field test using these two devices?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we please have 4D607 on e-court, please.

13     Page 15 of the -- of both versions.  Can we zoom in just a little bit

14     more, please.

15        Q.   Now, sir, this concerns according to the title the radio device

16     operating at the 0.7-metres wavelength.  That is the Motorola OP 30.  I

17     wonder if you can just tell us your conclusion.  Now, based on your field

18     testing, can you please tell us the audibility result as between point 6,

19     which you've identified as a place called Hrncici, and point 1, which is

20     identified as Sandici meadow?

21        A.   The test that was carried out in the field between point 1 -

22     which is at Sandici meadow; the geographic coordinates were given in the

23     report - and point 6, the village of Hrncici, which is 4.000 metres from

24     point 1 -- well, when we carried out this test, we checked the

25     communication system by setting up a radio device with my colleague at

Page 27648

 1     point 1, and I drove towards point number 6 in this particular case, and

 2     we checked the communications system every 20 to 30 seconds.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Where is point 6, Mr. Gosnell or Mr. Markovic?  Can

 4     you follow the --

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Perhaps we could zoom in a little more tightly on

 6     the document, and then it should become clear.  I think we can go even

 7     tighter.

 8        Q.   So, sir, perhaps you could explain.  What is the significance --

 9     or perhaps I said be more accurate and ask you, how is it that you

10     determined point 6?  What is the significance of point 6 on annex 9?

11        A.   Point 6 is a geographic location, and at this point all

12     communications in the vehicle -- in a vehicle come to an end.  I stopped

13     at point 6 and tried to establish the same communications outside of the

14     vehicle, and that is where I determined that it was possible to establish

15     communication.  The value was 2 through 1 for that kind of communication.

16     And this is a standard assessment.  2 through 1, 2/1, means that

17     audibility on a scale of 1 to 5 was 2, but it was practically

18     incomprehensible.  On a scale of 1 to 5, comprehension was level 1.

19     Practically incomprehensible.  I'd just like to emphasize that in the

20     vehicle itself it was impossible to establish communications.

21        Q.   All right.  And staying with this annex 9, could you please tell

22     us what this audibility result was between that same spot, point 6, and

23     point 2, which is the Kravica warehouse?

24        A.   Between point 2 and point 6, it was impossible to establish

25     communications, both in and out of the vehicle.

Page 27649

 1        Q.   Could you hear anything at all based on a test between those two

 2     points?

 3        A.   Absolutely nothing.

 4        Q.   And how did you actually do that test?

 5        A.   The test was performed in the same way as the test between points

 6     1 and 6.

 7        Q.   And in respect of these two results or these two references

 8     points, between point 6 and point 1 and point 6 and point 2, did you

 9     reach the same result in respect of the other device as well?

10        A.   Yes.  The testing was performed with both radio sets, and the

11     results that I obtained were absolutely the same.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Looking at this map, we see something that looks

13     like pixels on the map.  Could you explain what that represents?

14        A.   Looking at the map, the areas depicted by colour red are the

15     areas where it is absolutely possible to establish communication.  The

16     areas in blue are the areas where it is only theoretically possible to

17     establish communication.  However, the communication is poor or extremely

18     poor.  Grey areas are areas where it is absolutely impossible to

19     establish any sort of communication with the devices that I had at my

20     disposal.

21        Q.   And, sir, how did you generate this pixilated representation on

22     the map?

23        A.   We received this map, or actually, we generated this map by using

24     a programme called HerTZ Mapper that we normally use in the Ministry of

25     the Interior in the crime prevention police administration, and this

Page 27650

 1     programme is used to establish the connectivity of radio communications.

 2     The data were obtained in the following way:  We entered initial data in

 3     the already-existing digital maps, and the data that we used were as

 4     follows:  Geographic coordinates from the points already represented, and

 5     these we obtained using the Garmin GPS device.

 6        Q.   Well, perhaps I could just cut to the key question, which is,

 7     does this programme incorporate or include topographical data?

 8        A.   This programme does not provide the exact topographical data.  It

 9     only represents the most characteristics points, which means that it

10     doesn't correspond totally to topographic maps, which provide a lot more

11     details.

12        Q.   All right.  And how would you compare the accuracy of the

13     pixilated representation of audibility and a field test testing

14     audibility?

15        A.   In this case, as depicted on this map, between points 1 and 6,

16     the results coincide within the vehicle, which means that there is no

17     connectivity, whereas outside of the vehicle some sort of communication

18     could be established, but the comprehensibility of that communication was

19     low or none.

20             And between points 2 and 6, as shown on the map, there was no

21     connectivity either in or outside of the vehicle.

22        Q.   And leaving aside for the moment this particular map, could you

23     tell us in general terms whether there were any drawbacks related to the

24     HerTZ Mapper audibility test and a field audibility test?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all the microphones not be in use please

Page 27651

 1     be switched off.  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  The difference

 3     between these two tests depends on some other factors; i.e., there are

 4     some other factors that have an impact on the physical verification of

 5     communication.  What we see on the map are the ideal conditions, which

 6     means that the radio device works at its maximum strength of 5 watts

 7     under the ideal weather conditions and that it is outside of the vehicle.

 8     Whilst -- when we were checking communications on -- in the field, the

 9     influence of all the aforementioned factors was present:  Weather

10     conditions; the strength of the device, i.e., the frequency that it was

11     working on; the battery, whether it was fully charged or just

12     half-charged; the shelf life of the battery - this is what I mean when I

13     say the battery; and also, one of major influencing factors is whether an

14     attempt to establish communication is made in the vehicle or outside of

15     it.

16             All these factors have an impact on the attempt to establish

17     communication.  And to be even more precise on that, when we used the

18     programme, we used the ideal conditions, both weather conditions and the

19     condition of the device.  While we were testing communication in the

20     field, all the negative factors were present.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we please have annex 7 on e-court, please.

22     It's two pages previous before annex 9, and please zoom in tightly.

23        Q.   Now, sir, are the points 1, 2, and 6 the same coordinates as

24     appeared on the previous map?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 27652

 1        Q.   And does this map in any way illustrate what you've just

 2     described about the relationship between the two types of testing?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And, sir, what were the weather conditions like when you

 5     conducted your field test on the 17th of September, 2008?

 6        A.   On that day, it was partly cloudy.

 7        Q.   And on a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the atmospheric

 8     conditions in terms of relative to the ideal conditions for transmission?

 9        A.   According to my free estimate, I would say somewhere between 8

10     and 9.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  All right.  Can we go to page 2 of the report,

12     please, in both English and B/C/S.

13        Q.   Now, at the bottom of the page, you say: "It has also been

14     established that at the time in the said area there were no active

15     amplifying inter-stations that could amplify the range of the radio

16     connection.  Rather, the radio connection was used exclusively in simplex

17     mode."

18             Can you please share with us how you know that or how you reached

19     that conclusion?

20        A.   Before embarking on the connection testing in the locations that

21     were given, we had visited the police station in Bratunac.  The two of us

22     were received by the deputy commander of the police station, and we put

23     the same question to him, namely, whether there were any amplifying

24     inter-stations and whether there were any at the moment when we were

25     asking on the 17th of September, 2008.  In other words, whether there had

Page 27653

 1     been before and whether there were at that moment.

 2             He called a member of the police staff who was a signals man at

 3     the time.  He told us that in the territory covered by the Bratunac

 4     police station and in the territory of Bratunac municipality there had

 5     never existed any amplifying inter-stations.  There were done during the

 6     existence of the former Yugoslavia, none during the conflict, and there

 7     were none at the time when we spoke to him.

 8        Q.   Sir, do you know Mr. Borovcanin?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Have you ever met him?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   And do you have any reason to be biased in his favour because of

13     his former association with the Ministry of the Interior?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Has anyone pressured you in relation to the results that are

16     expressed in your report?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   All right.  Sir, I just have one last question for you, and it

19     relates to page 1 of your report.  Is there a correction that you wish to

20     make in relation to point 2?

21        A.   Yes.  There are corrections on the pages 1 and 3 that concern the

22     geographic coordinates on point 2.  The first coordinate, it says here

23     "92, 8 seconds," and this is a typo.  It should be "42, 8 seconds."

24             On page 3, I would like to make the same correction.  Under item,

25     3, it should again read "42, 8 seconds."

Page 27654

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Your Honours.  We have no further

 2     questions.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Zivanovic?

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No question for the witness, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic?

 6             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic?  Or Mr. Bourgon, sorry.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Mr. President, I would

 9     ask with the leave of the Court to begin the cross-examination tomorrow

10     morning.  The reason being is I have a technical problem with a map that

11     I prepared.  I have an extract, and looking at it now, it doesn't look

12     very good, and I need to seek the assistance of the registrar.  I could

13     be ready in the morning first thing.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  We appreciate

15     you have a problem.  We will start with your cross-examination tomorrow.

16     Thank you.

17             We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.50 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of

20                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.