Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27655

 1                           Friday, 31 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, ma'am.  All the accused are present.

11     Prosecution today is Mr. Thayer, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Absent amongst the

12     Defence teams I notice Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Haynes.

13             So good morning to you.  Welcome back.  We are going to proceed

14     with your testimony, after which then you are free to go.  Yes.

15             Mr. Bourgon.

16             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, judges.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Mr. Bourgon.

18                           WITNESS:  JOVO MARKOVIC [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

21        Q.   Good morning, sir.

22        A.   [In English] Good morning.

23        Q.   For the record, allow me to introduce myself my name is Stephane

24     Bourgon and along with my colleagues this morning, Ms. Nikolic and Marie

25     Claude Fournier.  Together we represent Drago Nikolic in these

Page 27656

 1     proceedings.

 2             I do not have too many questions for you this morning, but by all

 3     means if there is any question that you do not understand, please do not

 4     hesitate in asking me to say the question over again.

 5             Firstly, I would like to confirm or would like you to confirm

 6     that we have had the opportunity to meet yesterday?

 7        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, I read your expert report with great interest, and there is

 9     one thing I would like to confirm from your report.

10             MR. BOURGON:  And if I can have in e-court, please 4D607, pages 2

11     in English and 2 in B/C/S.

12        Q.   Sir, your report will appear in front of you on the screen, and

13     I'd like to refer you to the before and last paragraph where you say the

14     following:

15             "We must note that all the devices operating at frequencies

16     higher than 30 megahertz require optical visibility in order for the

17     connection to be established."

18             My question is the following:  My understanding of this sentence

19     is that if there is a physical obstruction between two points, it is not

20     possible to establish radio communications using a device which operates

21     at a frequency higher than 30 megahertz, such as the portable handheld

22     radio that you mention in your report; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Bull I should also point out that it is

24     technically possible to establish communications by using these devices

25     if the distance is shorter.  There are two elements that have to do with

Page 27657

 1     wavelengths, special elements and surface elements as stated in my

 2     report.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, your testimony yesterday focused on

 4     the use of the Motorola portable hand radio.  Today, what I would like to

 5     ask you about is the RUP-12 radio which was in use in the VRS in July

 6     1995.  And my first question in this regard is are you familiar with the

 7     RUP-12 radio?

 8        A.   Yes, naturally.

 9        Q.   And can you help us in identifying at which frequency the RUP-12

10     radio is transmitting?

11        A.   Yes.  There are a number of variations when it comes to RUP

12     devices, but they all use the same range of frequencies.

13        Q.   And do you remember or do you know out of experience at what

14     frequency the RUP-12 radio is transmitting?

15        A.   Between 30 and 69.95 megahertz.

16             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have in e-court, please, 3D513.  This

17     document, Mr. President, is only available in B/C/S.  We obtained it from

18     the internet.  We will provide the English translation soon.  If I can

19     have page 3 of this document.

20        Q.   Sir, I would like to show you a document which will appear on the

21     screen before you.  And I'd like you to tell us what exactly this

22     document represents.

23             MR. BOURGON:  513.  That's the first page, if I can have the page

24     3 of this document, please.

25        Q.   Sir, can you tell us what this document means to you?

Page 27658

 1        A.   This document shows the face of the RUP-12 device, and you have

 2     certain technical details that relate to the device, technical

 3     specifications.

 4        Q.   And is the operating frequency of the RUP-12 radio mentioned on

 5     this page?

 6        A.   Yes, it is mentioned on this page.

 7        Q.   And I take it that it corresponds to what you mention that the

 8     frequency or the operating frequency goes from 30, 3-0, to 69.95

 9     megahertz, and that is the third line in the left column of this

10     document; is that correct?

11        A.   That's correct.  It's from 30 to 69.95 megahertz.

12        Q.   Now, sir, the radio depicted on this page, is that the RUP-12

13     radio that you are personally familiar with?

14        A.   Yes.  This is the RUP-12.  It's not a variation of such a device.

15        Q.   Sir, bearing in mind your knowledge of the RUP-12 radio, would I

16     be right in saying that using such a radio, it is not possible to

17     establish radio communications between two points if there is a physical

18     obstacle between the two?

19        A.   As I have already said, all devices that use a freak above 30

20     megahertz will require optical visibility.  There are certain exceptions.

21     It depends on the force of the antenna and the kind of antenna.  And it

22     also depends on the surface, but if you have a device that can take into

23     account the configuration of the terrain it is possible.  There are other

24     factors such as the weather, and there can also be features that reflect

25     or send back radio wavelengths; but in all such cases we are dealing with

Page 27659

 1     shorter distances.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have in e-court please 3D93.  And this is

 4     a military map 1:100.000 of the Kladanj area, and I did the consult with

 5     the Court Registrar yesterday to get one specific area of this map on the

 6     screen.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you for that, Mr. Bourgon.

 8             MR. BOURGON:

 9        Q.   Sir, what I would like to do at this time is to show you a

10     military map of the --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just one moment, Mr. Bourgon.  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry to interrupt my colleague, but I did

13     notice -- it's been pointed out to me that the witness mentioned

14     something about waves coming back to the surface, I believe I heard that

15     in the translation.  It should have appeared between lines 17 and line 23

16     in his answer to Mr. Bourgon's question, and it doesn't appear in the

17     transcript.  So I wondered if the witness could actually repeat his

18     answer to that question.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Can you look into that.  Mr. Bourgon,

20     let's finish first the question that you were preparing on this map and

21     then you go to what Mr. Vanderpuye has just traced afterwards.

22             Thank you.

23             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We are just adjusting

24     the map now a bit lower so that we can see Baljkovica on the top.  Just

25     like this, that's good.  And a little bit to the left if you can, so that

Page 27660

 1     Zvornik is more inside.  Yes, that's perfect.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Sir, what I would like to do is show you a map of the Zvornik

 3     area and ask you about the use of the RUP-12 radio in this area, and more

 4     particularly if you look at this map in the Zvornik Snagovo area.

 5             Firstly, can you tell us if you familiar with the area depicted

 6     on this map?

 7        A.   Yes, I am familiar with this area.  We have the surroundings of

 8     Zvornik here; and it's a mountainous terrain, a hilly terrain.

 9        Q.   And based on your knowledge of this area, what can you tell us

10     about the possibilities and the quality of radio communications in that

11     area?

12        A.   On the basis of my experience, radio communications are very

13     limited in such areas when the terrain is of this kind.  I am talking

14     about frequencies above 30 megahertz.

15        Q.   And, sir, based on your military experience and technical

16     knowledge of radio communications, can you tell us if it's possible

17     looking at a military map, such as the one which appears before you, to

18     determine if there is optical visibility between two points?

19        A.   Yes, it is possible to determine whether there is optical

20     visibility between two points, but in such a case it is necessary to

21     establish a profile of the configuration of the land.

22        Q.   And the profile of the configuration of the land you mention,

23     that is established by looking at the contour lines; is that correct?  Or

24     the very small lines that appear on the map; is that correct?

25        A.   I can clarify this.  The profile of the terrain is made by

Page 27661

 1     linking up two points.  And between the two points you have a look at the

 2     altitude above sea level, or in this case on the map on the isohypse.

 3     You also look at the distance between the most elevated points and the

 4     most distant points in such areas.

 5        Q.   Now, can you confirm, sir, that on a 1:100.000 scale map, the

 6     difference in elevation between each of the contour lines is 20 meters?

 7        A.   I think that the difference is 20 meters on this map, but at the

 8     bottom of each map you have the equi distances, and it should say 20

 9     meters.

10             MR. BOURGON:  Maybe, just to be on the safe side if we can just

11     take this map and move it all the down to the bottom of the map to see

12     the legend at the bottom.

13        Q.   Is that looking at the bottom of this map what you mentioned what

14     the difference in elevation between each of the contour lines is 20

15     meters?

16        A.   Yes, yes, it's 20 meters.

17        Q.   We are talking about elevation.

18             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have the map back to where it was.

19        Q.   Sir, what I would like to do at this time is simply to use an

20     example or one example, and ask you if you tell us by looking at the map

21     and the contour lines whether there is optical visibility between two

22     points?

23             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have the assistance of the usher, please.

24        Q.   I will ask you, sir, to use a pen.  Now, this is a special pen

25     that you can use to write on the screen, and I will ask you to make some

Page 27662

 1     markings.

 2             First of all, do you see Zvornik on this map?

 3        A.   Yes, I can see Zvornik on the map.

 4        Q.   And a little bit to the left and lower, do you see the area of

 5     Snagovo?

 6        A.   I see the Snagovo area.

 7        Q.   And do you see elevation 402 close to the letter N in the word

 8     "Snagovo"?

 9        A.   Yes, it's trig point 402.

10        Q.   Using the pen that has been given to you, can you draw a small

11     circle around trig point 402?

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Sir, when we say "trig point" on a military map, what exactly

14     does this mean?

15        A.   A trig point is a characteristic point.  It has precisely

16     determined coordinates and an at attitude above sea level.  And it should

17     always be the most elevated point in the area concerned.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on the same map, much higher and a bit to the

19     left, can you see the word or the name Balkovica?

20        A.   I can see Balkovica.

21        Q.   And I would ask that you make a small circle around the letter K

22     of the word Balkovica using the same pen.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   And I would like you now to draw a line between the two points

25     that are there from Snagovo, trig point 402, to Balkovica, simply to join

Page 27663

 1     these two points with a line.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Now, to the left of -- to the right of the word Balkovica appears

 4     the name Rebici [Realtime transcript read in error, "Ribici"], do you see

 5     this, sir?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you draw a small circle around the letters -- the letter B of

 8     Rebici.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And then to draw a line from this point or the letter B in Rebici

11     and to link that up with elevation 402 in Snagovo.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Now, I would like to use these two examples now, and of course we

14     do not have time to do a full profile of the land.  But my question is

15     the following:  Is there optical visibility, at first sight, between trig

16     point 402 in Snagovo and Balkovica on the line that you drew?

17        A.   Well, first I have to say that the scale is 1:100.000 here and

18     usually you don't draw profiles of the terrain on such a scale.  And in

19     this map a pinpoint on the map represents a 100 meters in real life.

20     What I can see on this sort of a scale is, and what I can see on the

21     basis of the trig points, the elevations, on this axis -- well, on this

22     basis I would say that it's probably impossible to have optical

23     visibility.  But to claim this for certain, it would be necessary to make

24     a profile of the terrain.

25        Q.   Now, sir, looking at the distance between those two points

Page 27664

 1     Balkovica and trig point 402 in Snagovo, yesterday we established

 2     together that the distance between those two points was close to 11

 3     kilometres.  Do you remember that we did this together yesterday, sir?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, on the basis of your conclusion that there is no optical

 6     visibility between those two points and the distance of 11 kilometre, my

 7     question is:  If two persons are standing, the first one in trig point

 8     4202 in Snagovo and the second one in Balkovica, is it possible to

 9     establish radio communications using the RUP-12 radio?

10        A.   Again, I have to say that when I have a look at this

11     Mr. President, the scale of which is 1:100.000, it's very difficult to

12     establish what the case would be.

13             But on the basis of the terrain, I can note that on the map this

14     is an area where is there are forests and mountains, but on this basis

15     the radio links between had these two points is probably not possible.

16     It's probably not possible to establish such links, but to be quite

17     certain it would be necessary to take measurements in the field.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now if I look at the second line on this map, which

19     is the one that you have drawn between Rebici and trig point 402 in

20     Snagovo, can you tell me if by looking at first sight at the physiognomy

21     of the land whether there is optical visibility between these two points.

22        A.   Looking at this map, the scale of which is 1:100.000, I -- I must

23     say that probably no.  Probably no.  But again, in order to be precise

24     here one would have to make measurements on the ground.

25        Q.   Now, you say "measurements on the ground," but if I look for

Page 27665

 1     example on this line, the line between Rebici and trig point 402 in

 2     Snagovo, right in the middle I see that there is Planinci with a further

 3     trig point beside this one indicating 528.  Do you see this, sir?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see it.  It's trig point 528.

 5        Q.   Can you draw a circle around trig point 528 near Planinci.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   And looking at the first line, I'd ask you to look at trig point

 8     602 close to Potocani.  Do you see this, sir?  A bit lower than Potocani.

 9        A.   Yes, I can see it.

10        Q.   Can you draw a circle around trig point 602.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Now, bearing in mind these additional trig points which you have

13     just identified, how probable, because you use the word "probable," is it

14     that radio communications can be established between those -- on those

15     two axes, Balkovica-Snagovo and Rebici-Snagovo?

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, before you answer the question.

17     Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I object it calls for

19     speculation.  The witness has answered repeatedly that he needs to take

20     field measurements, and he needs to do a terrain analysis in order to

21     answer this question.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to comment, Mr. Bourgon.

23             MR. BOURGON:  There is no speculation.  The witness can see that

24     there are obstacles there.  He can explain what he has what he sees on

25     this map and that does not change the answer that my colleague referred

Page 27666

 1     to.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  One moment.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are fine with the question.  We don't think it

 5     calls for speculation, so the witness can answer it.

 6             MR. BOURGON:

 7        Q.   So, sir, if we look at this first line.  First, maybe, can you

 8     tell us just to be on the safe side, if I look at Balkovica, even though

 9     this is a difficult map because it's 1:100.000 - what is the elevation of

10     the circle that you have drown on Balkovica?

11             And I understand that might be difficult because the map is not

12     very clear.

13        A.   That can be precisely established based on the lines on this map

14     that connect points with the same altitude.  The map is not very clear,

15     though; and I cannot tell for sure, but it looks like the elevation is

16     about 240 to 250 meters.

17        Q.   Can you write the number 240-250 beside the circle you have drawn

18     close to Balkovica?

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And now beside Rebici, can you tell us from what you can see on

21     this map what would be the height of or the elevation of Rebici?

22        A.   I must reiterate that this is difficult to see on this map

23     because usually the profile of the terrain and elevations are taken from

24     1:50.000 scale map.  But from what I can see here, I would say that the

25     elevation is about 300 meters.

Page 27667

 1        Q.   And can you write the number 300 beside Rebici.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you confirm that if you were given a

 4     1:50.000 scale map, it would be possible for you to do a precise analysis

 5     of the terrain between any two points on this map and tell us if there is

 6     optical visibility?

 7        A.   Yes, but that would require more time.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.  That's very helpful.  If I can ask you

 9     simply to put your initials at the bottom of this military map as well as

10     today's date which is 31 October, 2008, using the same pen.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             MR. BOURGON:  I would just like to note in the transcript,

13     wherever I mention the word "Rebici" it appears that the word "Ribici"

14     appears, so I just want to make sure that the correct word close to the

15     circle drawn by the witness is Rebici, with R-E.

16             Thank you very much.  We won't need that if I can save this map.

17        Q.   Sir, besides existing obstacles between two points, you've

18     mentioned that there are other factors which affect the possibility to

19     establish radio communications using RUP-12 radio.  How does weather

20     affect such communications?

21        A.   There are several factors that affect the possibility to

22     establish radio communications, one of those factors being the weather.

23        Q.   And how does the weather affect the communications?  Does it make

24     it better?  What kind of weather makes radio communications better or

25     worse?

Page 27668

 1        A.   It all depends.  There are tables showing that.  It depends on

 2     the frequency used.  It depends on the time of the day or night, and the

 3     weather conditions at the given moment.

 4        Q.   And sir you mention that this was, I think you mention a

 5     mountainous area, what about the fact that two people would be in the

 6     same area but in the middle of the forest.  And because it would be July

 7     there would be lots of leaves in the trees.  Does that affect radio

 8     communications also using RUP-12?

 9        A.   Yes, of course.  Because when you conduct measurement in the

10     field, you take into consideration the position of the point in question

11     and the elevation of the antenna as well as what is to be found in the

12     surrounding area around the radio.  And yes, the forest does affect the

13     possibility to establish radio communication.

14        Q.   And, sir, using the RUP radio 12 with anything less than a full

15     battery charge, does that also affect negatively radio communications

16     using this device?

17        A.   Yes, of course.  The remaining power of the battery significantly

18     affects the possibility of establish radio communication.

19        Q.   And would I be right in saying that the RUP-12 radio uses a

20     rechargeable battery which has a very well known problem called "memory

21     effect."  Is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, that is correct.  The RUP-12 uses rechargeable batteries, a

23     nickel cadmium battery, and that nickel cadmium battery, one of its

24     characteristics is this memory effect.

25        Q.   Can you tell us more about the memory effect, how does is this --

Page 27669

 1     what exactly is this?

 2        A.   If you take the full capacity of the battery, and if you use the

 3     battery up to 70 per cent, and then you recharge it, when the battery's

 4     remaining power is down to 70 perpetrate again.  In most cases, the

 5     device will show that the battery is almost or completely empty.  I

 6     mentioned 70 per cent in this example, but in most cases this effect

 7     makes itself felt when the battery is discharged to 40 or 50 per cent of

 8     its capacity.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, can you confirm that although this RUP-12 radio, or the

10     battery of this RUP-12 radio, can be recharged manually that such a

11     charger is not issued along with RUP-12 radios within the VRS?

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would ask my colleague at least to clarify the

14     time-period that we are talking about.

15             MR. BOURGON:  Will do, Mr. President.

16        Q.   To your experience, sir, given where you were in the period that

17     you were at the military academy, for example, do you know that when

18     RUP-12 radios were issued to the VRS whether the manual recharger was

19     issued with it?

20        A.   I don't know whether at that time manual chargers were issued,

21     because I wasn't present there at the time.  But I can say that battery

22     chargers, according to the specifications and in standard practice, did

23     not come with the RUP-12 radio.  As a rule, the batteries were charged at

24     certain places where there were stable sources of electric power.  I'm

25     saying this -- I'm saying this to illustrate what the rules were for the

Page 27670

 1     RUP-12 and what the proper use of the RUP-12 was.  But what was really

 2     happening in practice, I cannot tell because I wasn't present at the

 3     time.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, to come back to the issue which was raised

 5     by my colleague earlier, you mention about ground reflection being a

 6     factor in establishing communications using the RUP-12 radio.  My

 7     question is the following:  Even with all conditions optimized, from a

 8     technical point of view, can you confirm that it is not possible to

 9     establish radio communications between two points 10 kilometres away from

10     each other if there is no optical visibility?

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I think that the question is too

13     vague as posed.  I don't think there is sufficient parameters in the

14     question for him to answer this hypothetical question.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  I appreciate your intervention of course, but I am

16     not an expert on this subject; and I know very little about it and that's

17     from sailing and using radios during sailing, but that's different; so

18     perhaps the expert witness can tell us whether he has enough information

19     on which he can give a reason to answer or not.

20             Mr. Markovic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must say that when I personally

22     used those devices that it was possible to establish radio communications

23     over a distance even greater than 10 kilometres but in conditions of

24     optical visibility [Realtime transcript read in error, "optimal"] in this

25     case, based on the map that was shown to me about 10 minutes ago, radio

Page 27671

 1     communication over that distance probably is not possible.  But in order

 2     to be able to say for sure, you would have to make field measurements.

 3             MR. BOURGON:

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir, that's very helpful.  I would like to move to a

 5     final area about the RUP-12 radio.  Can you tell us that when using this

 6     radio, where does the sound come from on the radio?

 7        A.   There are two possible sources of sound.  One is the receiver

 8     that you can pick up, and the other source is a headset that come with

 9     that device, normally.

10        Q.   And, sir, how loud is the sound coming out of either the handset

11     or the headset, and how close do you have to be to hear what is going on,

12     on the radio?

13        A.   Unless you are wearing the headset on your head and ears or if

14     the handset is not against your ear, you have to be very close to the

15     radio to be able to overhear the communication from the speaker --

16     speakers.  Of course, when it's completely quite, then the distance is

17     somewhat greater.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. BOURGON:  Before I move on to my next question, I would just

20     like to make a correction in the transcript.  At page 16, line 21, the

21     witness said, "in conditions of optical visibility," and what appears in

22     the transcript at this time is "optimal visibility."  I would just like

23     to make this clear.

24             If I can have in e-court please 3D513 this time.  And once again

25     I would like to have page 1 in B/C/S and in English.

Page 27672

 1             Lower, lower again.  Yes.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Sir, using the same pen that was given to you earlier, do you see

 3     on this picture before you the handset used with the RUP-12 radio, and

 4     can you draw a circle around it?

 5        A.   Yes, I can see.

 6        Q.   If you can draw a circle around the handset.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And can you put the number 1 beside this circle?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Now, do you see in this picture the headset that you are

11     referring to and can you draw a circle around the headset?

12        A.   Yes, I can see it.

13        Q.   And can you put the number 2 beside this second circle.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And if I can ask you to put your initials and today's date, and

16     if we can save this picture.  At the bottom, if you can just put your

17     initials and today's date, 31 October, 2008.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, sir, if a communicator or a signals men is using

20     the RUP-12 radio, and he has the handset in his hand, can a person beside

21     him hear what is being said on the radio?

22        A.   Yes, but that person would have to be very close.  In absolute

23     silence, the distance is somewhat greater.

24        Q.   And when you say "very close," sir, are we talking about

25     centimetres or metres?

Page 27673

 1        A.   I am speaking about centimetres.

 2        Q.   And sir, when using the RUP-12 radio, if the signals man is

 3     actually wearing the headset, can a person located beside him hear what

 4     is being said on the radio?

 5        A.   The RUP-12, on its front panel, has amplification and that is

 6     amplification for the handset.  Usually, when you use the headset, the

 7     radio operator, signal man, adjusts the volume in his headset according

 8     to his own preference.  A person standing next to the signal man could

 9     hear the conversation if that person is very close.  If a -- if the

10     handset is used, again in very quite silent conditions the distance is

11     greater.

12        Q.   And again, sir, we are talking about a distance in centimetres;

13     is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, centimetres.  But if you're in a closed space then the

15     distance is somewhat greater.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  I have no further questions.

17             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  Ms. Fauveau, do you wish

19     to cross-examine the witness?

20             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, I have no question for this

21     witness, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Josse?

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  No cross, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa.

25             MR. SARAPA:  No questions.

Page 27674

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President, and good morning to

 3     you and Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Good morning to counsel.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 7        Q.   And good morning to you, Mr. Markovic.  My name is

 8     Kweku Vanderpuye, on behalf of the Prosecution I am going to put some

 9     questions in relation to your direct testimony and also in relation to

10     your cross-examination by my colleague, Mr. Bourgon.

11             If there is any question that I put to you that is not clear to

12     you please let me know, and I'll try to rephrase it in a way that we can

13     better understand one another.  I am going to try to get through this, I

14     think, in an hour and a half but it may be a bit longer given my

15     colleague's cross-examination.  In any event, let's get started.  I think

16     I will work backwards first.

17             You were talking about the possibility of a person hearing a

18     conversation that occurs on an RUP-12 device just a moment ago, and you

19     indicated, I believe, you indicated on a couple of occasions that in

20     order for a person to hear a conversation, that is not the signal men

21     themselves, but they would have to be close to the signal man who is

22     either wearing a headset or holding a receiver; is that right?

23        A.   Well, if you are close to the radio device and if amplification

24     is at the maximum volume, it's possible to hear the conversation through

25     the receiver.

Page 27675

 1        Q.   Do you know what the specification for the amplification volume

 2     of an RUP-12 device are?

 3        A.   Not off-hand.  I can't remember so many details.  There are

 4     specifications that can be verified it really isn't a problem.  I am

 5     telling you what I know on the basis of my experience.  As far as

 6     amplification is concerned, well, amplification is quite slight because

 7     the device is used when you have the receiver or when you use the

 8     headset.  These are the ways in which the devices are used.

 9        Q.   Well, the RUP-12 is a mobile tactical radio device, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   It can be deployed to combat situations, right?

12        A.   Yes.  And that is why you have headsets as part of the device.

13        Q.   And in contemplation of deployment to combat situations, those

14     don't tend to be very quite environments, do they?

15        A.   Could you please repeat that question?  I haven't fully

16     understood it.

17        Q.   You said that the amplification is very slight in an RUP-12

18     device, and I'm asking you, do you believe that to be true given the fact

19     that the RUP-12 device is a tactical radio device that is normally or

20     possibly deployed in combat situations which don't tend to be very quite

21     environments?

22        A.   That's correct.  That's why you have amplification on the headset

23     and on the receiver.

24        Q.   All right.  And so you said that you've based your conclusions on

25     whether or not a conversation could be overheard on one of these devices

Page 27676

 1     on your experience?

 2        A.   Yes.  All of this is based on my personal experience, but I must

 3     emphasize the fact that people hear things differently.  I can't really

 4     say what distance such conversations could be heard by someone else, and

 5     it also depends on the amplification at the time used for the front panel

 6     of the device.

 7        Q.   And it also depends on the ambient conditions, the noise

 8     conditions at the time that the device is used, right?

 9        A.   That's correct.  It depends on whether you're in a vehicle, into

10     room, or outside.  It also depends on the environment that you are in.

11        Q.   And as you sit here testifying today, your answer is given

12     without respect to any of those variables, right?

13        A.   That's correct.  I don't know what all the variants were.  I

14     mentioned all the variants I thought of.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could have 3D513 in e-court, please.  Thank

17     you.

18        Q.   All right.  This is a photograph of the RUP-12 that my colleague

19     showed you in his cross-examination.  You identified the handset and the

20     headset in this photograph, I believe.  Now, if you look on the left side

21     of that photograph you see a series of what appear to be sticks.  Can you

22     tell us what that is -- or can you tell us what that is on the left side

23     of the photograph in the bottom?

24        A.   To the left you have a long antenna, a long rod for the RUP-12.

25        Q.   And given your experience in radio communications, what type of

Page 27677

 1     antenna is that?

 2        A.   It's the kind of antenna that you use when you are not moving.

 3     And it's also used to establish communications at greater distances.

 4        Q.   Does it have a particular name, this antenna?

 5        A.   The antenna has a name.  I can't quite remember it at the moment.

 6     I think its AT, the letters AT followed by some kind of a number.  The

 7     specifications mention what the name of the antenna is.

 8        Q.   Are you familiar with a yagi antenna?

 9        A.   Yes.  This is a directional antenna.

10        Q.   And the antenna that's depicted in this photograph, is that a

11     directional antenna?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   All right.  Then what type of antenna is it?

14        A.   It's the kind of antenna, the electro-magnetic waves of which

15     radiate in a circular fashion in relation to its axis.

16        Q.   It's an omni-directional antenna, isn't it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And it radiates electro-magnetic energy equally in all horizontal

19     directions, right?

20        A.   Right.

21        Q.   Thank you for that.  By the way, what is the range of an RUP-12

22     radio device operating at full power?

23        A.   I have to say that the range depends on a number of factors.

24     When you take all those factors into account, it's then possible to speak

25     about the device's range.  All I can say, on the base of my own

Page 27678

 1     experience, is that I used these devices for ranges on the second

 2     retranslation station and without using an amplifier, the range I used

 3     this device for was about 15 kilometres.  And this was when a long

 4     antenna was used.

 5        Q.   When you say "a long antenna," is that the antenna that was

 6     depicted in that photograph or different?

 7        A.   Yes, that's the antenna we can see here to the left.

 8        Q.   And is it that the manufacture does not provide specifications as

 9     to the operational range of the radio device?  Is that why you are unable

10     to tell us what the range is aside from your own personal experience?

11        A.   The manufacturer only tells you about the possibilities of the

12     device in tactical maneuver terrain.  And when using it at maximum

13     capacity, and this all depends on the frequency that you select, when

14     using it at such maximum capacity the range should be around 12

15     kilometres.

16        Q.   I am not asking you what you think it might be, I'm asking you

17     whether or not the manufacture specifies that particular information in

18     relation to the device.  Are you aware of whether or not they do?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And it's according to the manufacturer, you say, that the device

21     has an operational range of about 12 kilometres?

22        A.   As I said, I think that is the case.  I can't be a hundred per

23     cent sure.

24        Q.   All right.  You were asked some questions about line of sight

25     communications, and when I say "line of sight," I mean optical

Page 27679

 1     visibility.  And I believe you said at one point that it's not possible

 2     to establish radio communications from one point to another point in

 3     frequencies above 30 megahertz, high frequencies, without optical

 4     visibility?

 5        A.   That's what I said, but there are other factors that influence

 6     the situation, factors which I have mentioned in my report.

 7        Q.   In fact, you said that there were exceptions.  And I wanted to

 8     ask you a little bit about that.  When you said that there were

 9     exceptions to line of sight communications between point -- between one

10     point and another point, tell us what those exceptions are.

11        A.   It's the way that electro-magnetic waves radiate.  In space and

12     on the surface.  The surface factor is as follows:  When it calls to the

13     radiation of electro-magnetic wavelengths, it depends on the

14     configuration of the land, and it also depends on the type of antenna

15     used and the strength of the device.  When it comes to the spatial

16     factor, well, the wavelengths radiate in space.  It all depends, yet

17     again, on the strength of the device, the type of antenna used, and on

18     the weather conditions.  When I say "weather conditions," I have in mind

19     all types of weather conditions.

20        Q.   All right.  Let me ask you first about some physical things.  Are

21     you familiar with a concept known as reflection?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  Why don't you tell us what that is.

24        A.   Well, reflection means the reflection of electro-magnetic waves,

25     when they encounter objects.

Page 27680

 1        Q.   And that can effect the way the wave propagates in real life,

 2     right?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   So effectively it's like bouncing, right?

 5        A.   Yes, but it depends on the strength of the device and also the

 6     angle of reflection of the electro-magnetic waves.

 7        Q.   And it also depends on the nature of the surface that it's

 8     bouncing of, right, whether it's smooth or pores or hard or soft, right?

 9        A.   Yes, naturally.  A firm flat surface is the best, but it all

10     depends on the other kinds of obstacles that electro-magnetic waves

11     encounter when rebounding.

12        Q.   Okay.  So reflection is one phenomena that can cause a

13     communication to be established between two points without obstacle --

14     without optical visibility, right?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Are you familiar with a concept known as refraction?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you tell us what that is?

19        A.   If I've understood this correctly, if this is what you have in

20     mind, it is the refraction of electro-magnetic waves from the atmosphere.

21        Q.   And what effect does that have on establishing communications

22     that are not line of sight communications between two points?  Let me

23     rephrase that because I see how it came out in the transcript.  What

24     effect does refraction of electro-magnetic waves have on establishing a

25     communication between two points that do not have optical visibility?

Page 27681

 1        A.   When using frequencies, up to 30 megahertz, shortwave

 2     frequencies, it has a significant influence.  But when you have

 3     frequencies above 30 megahertz, the influence is significantly reduced.

 4        Q.   Now, you mentioned weather phenomena as well as having an impact

 5     on you establishing communications that are not line of sight.  And in

 6     particular, what weather phenomena are you referring to?

 7        A.   What I had in mind were the current weather conditions, whether

 8     it was cloudy or not, naturally I forget to mention the state of the

 9     ionosphere at the time and this is something that we cannot influence.

10     This is something we cannot have knowledge about.

11        Q.   Is that something that essentially can result in the

12     establishment of the communication between two points that are not in

13     line of sight?

14        A.   Yes, it can influence the situation with regard to two points

15     that aren't line of sight points, but, naturally, you also have the

16     Fresnal effect, the so-called Fresnal effect, of the rebounding of

17     electro-magnetic waves that certain frequencies above 30 on megahertz.

18        Q.   Okay.  And the Fresnal effect can effect or disrupt, I should

19     say, the transmission of -- the transmission of a radio signal, right?

20        A.   Yes.  But the Fresnal effect is only used when calculating radio

21     relay communications that are used by directional antenna.

22        Q.   Okay.  And that interferes with the propagation of the wave

23     because there is -- there are objects on the ground such has as forest,

24     clutter, things of that nature, right?

25        A.   That's correct.  When there are certain obstacles it depends on

Page 27682

 1     the position of both radio stations and the configuration of the terrain,

 2     but it's on the basis of the configuration of the land and these are

 3     positions that one takes into consideration the Fresnal effect when

 4     establishing radio communications.  But this is all in relation to

 5     calculations made on a map, but to be a hundred per cent certain, you

 6     have to go into the field and take measurements in the field itself.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now the Fresnal effect or the -- well, the Fresnal effect

 8     itself is not the product of a weather phenomena, it's the product of

 9     physical characteristics within the bounds of the radio transmission,

10     right?

11        A.   No, no.  It has to do with the atmosphere, the state of the

12     atmosphere.  Not the terrain.  We have the spatial factor, it radiates

13     through space not over the surface, because the surface factor is not

14     that important.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, are you familiar with the phenomena known as

16     temperature inversion?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If you could briefly tell us what that is?

19        A.   If I've understood you correctly, and if we have the same thing

20     in mind, it has to do with the differences in temperature at certain

21     distances.

22        Q.   All right.  Then maybe we don't have the same thing in mind.

23     What I am talking about is the difference in temperature in the

24     atmosphere from the ground in the direction towards the sky.  And that is

25     the difference in temperature which would normally be expected when

Page 27683

 1     radiating away from the Earth [Realtime transcript read in error,

 2     "either"] would be that the atmosphere would tend to cool.  What I am

 3     talking about is a temperature inversion where the temperature of the

 4     atmosphere radiating away from the Earth can heat up.  Are you familiar

 5     with that phenomenon?

 6        A.   Yes.  Temperature is non-linear in relation to height.

 7        Q.   Are you familiar with the effects of tropospheric ducting in

 8     relation to temperature inversion?

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you repeat the two words?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Tropospheric ducting.

11        Q.   -- in relation to the phenomenon of temperature inversion?

12        A.   Could you perhaps clarify this, I am not quite sure what you are

13     thinking of.

14        Q.   All right.  What I am talking about is in terms of temperature

15     inversion, normally what you would have is a situation where a radio wave

16     passes through the atmosphere; and the atmosphere, as it passes through,

17     tends to cool as the radio wave travels away from the Earth, right?  That

18     would be a normal situation.  Does that sound right to you?

19        A.   As far as I have understand you, and I have already said that the

20     temperature in the atmosphere is non-linear, it doesn't fall in a linear

21     away.  It is non-linear.  You have the ionosphere, troposphere, and the

22     temperatures in these various spheres vary from plus to minus.

23        Q.   And what I am talking about in terms of tropospheric ducting has

24     to do with layer of cool atmosphere followed by a layer of warm

25     atmosphere when you are moving away from the Earth, so that when a radio

Page 27684

 1     wave is discharged, it goes up through the warm atmosphere into the

 2     cooler atmosphere above which sits again warm atmosphere.  Are you

 3     familiar with that type of sandwiching, if I can describe it that way,

 4     sandwiching of these layers of warm air with a cool layer of atmosphere

 5     in-between.  Are you familiar with that?

 6        A.   Yes, I am familiar with the phenomenon.  It is a phenomena that

 7     exists; it's a phenomena that one encounters especially when

 8     electro-magnetic waves are omitted at short wavelength.

 9        Q.   Isn't it this case, sir, that that type of ducting results in a

10     wave that would ordinarily be sent out into space or sent into the upper

11     atmosphere refracting back towards the Earth; and the effect of that is

12     to extend inordinately the range of a communication beyond what would

13     normally be expected?

14        A.   Yes, that is correct.  There are such effects.

15        Q.   And it's also correct that that particular characteristic relates

16     to the propagation of waves in the very high frequency range and the

17     ultra-high frequency range, right?

18        A.   Yes, that can happen.  But as I said, this effect is most

19     pronounced in the short frequency range.

20        Q.   Okay.  I think -- I think it's time for a break, if that's all

21     right with the Court.  This might be a good time to pause.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you we'll have a break now, 25 minutes.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 27685

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just noticed what I

 2     think is a mistranscription at page 30, line 5, and in my question I had

 3     referred to -- referred to a wave refracting back towards the Earth and

 4     it reads "either."  I just wanted to make that correction to the record.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Yours might be line 5, mine is line 6.

 6     So all right.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is very interesting for me because it reminds

 9     me of when I had the course of sailing, you have to do this subject.

10     Let's proceed.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Good morning again, Mr. Markovic.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Last I left it, we had mentioned you had indicated you were

15     familiar with this phenomena and that you believed that it affected short

16     frequency range, and I just want to ask you if you feel certain of that?

17        A.   I said that it affects most strongly the short frequency range.

18     But the effect is present in the entire frequency range.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.  Now, I want to refer you, if I

20     could, to your report.  And you prepared this audibility report --

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  -- and that's 4D607.

22        Q.   I'm not going to put it in e-court now because I want to ask you

23     some questions before that.  But you said that you'd prepared audibility

24     report, what you call audibility reports in the past yesterday during

25     your direct examination.  Do you recall that?

Page 27686

 1        A.   Yes, I remember.  But as I said then, those were standard things

 2     that used to be done before communication was established.

 3        Q.   Okay.  So I take it that you prepared these types of reports in a

 4     military context?

 5        A.   Yes, but only in the operational sense and it wasn't meant to be

 6     a report.

 7        Q.   All right.  Have you ever prepared an audibility report in a

 8     scientific context, experimental or otherwise?

 9        A.   No, not experimental.  But this was dealt with when I was at the

10     military academy.

11        Q.   I take it, then, you haven't produced or published any scientific

12     studies, books, or papers in the area of radio networks,

13     electro-magnetics, or radio engineering; is that right?

14        A.   Yes, correct.

15        Q.   And can I take it, then, that you haven't prepared any of these

16     types of audibility reports in relation to or in contemplation of court

17     proceedings or other official judicial proceedings?

18        A.   No, I have never done that.  This is my first appearance in

19     court.

20        Q.   And, in fact, you prepared this report together with someone

21     else, right?

22        A.   Yes, with a colleague.

23        Q.   Okay.  And are you aware of whether or not your colleague has

24     prepared any of these types of reports in relation to court proceedings

25     or any other official inquiries at judicial proceedings?

Page 27687

 1        A.   I cannot say because I have no knowledge of that, but I think

 2     that he has not.

 3        Q.   Now, yesterday during your direct examination you noted a

 4     correction to be made to your report.  And in particular, it relate to do

 5     a grid location, I believe.  That's written in your report as 92.8,

 6     and --

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  -- if I could have the report now in e-court.

 8     It is 4D607.  I think it should be on page 1 in both the English and

 9     B/C/S.

10        Q.   Okay.  And Mr. Gosnell asked you some questions, and I think you

11     pointed out that it was typographical error with respect to point number

12     2 that's in paragraph 1 where it says "44 degrees, 12," and then "92.8."

13     You indicated that was a typo and should read 42.8; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And the same --

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   And the same error appears also in paragraph 1 on page 3 and also

18     in paragraph 6 on page 3.  Those all have to do precise location or grid

19     coordinates for point number 2, which is the Kravica warehouse, right?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Unfortunately, when this first error was

21     typed it was only carried on.  We found out too late about it.

22        Q.   Okay.  And I'm glad you kind of went to my next point which is

23     when did you find out about this particular typo?

24        A.   I became aware of the error when it was -- when I was informed

25     that I might have to appear before this Tribunal, and then I once again

Page 27688

 1     took a look at this report to check whether it coincided with everything

 2     that we did on the ground.  And when I was looking up the coordinate on

 3     the topographic map, I became aware of the error.

 4        Q.   And about how long ago was that, a week, a couple of weeks, could

 5     you tell us more precisely?

 6        A.   I cannot say precisely, but it may have been some 10 days ago.

 7        Q.   And when was it, if ever, did you notify the Defence counsel

 8     about this particular typographical error?

 9        A.   I believe I notified the Defence last week in a phone

10     conversation.

11        Q.   Okay.  Have you become aware of any other errors having reviewed

12     your report?

13        A.   Yes.  I can -- I don't have it here and now, it's on the scanned

14     map in the 1:50.000 scale that the Kravica warehouse was a little -- was

15     moved a little, but it's a very difficult -- but it's because it is very

16     difficult to find the coordinates on a scanned map.  But we entered the

17     data that we -- that we established on the ground using the Garmin device

18     which is used by the criminal police.  If I may explain, it is very

19     difficult to establish geographical coordinates on these maps because

20     these maps are mostly old, from the 1980s and for a precise determination

21     of coordinates some parameters had to be entered; but we exclusively

22     relied on geographical coordinates established by means of a GPS.

23             And we only indicate on the map where the individual spots were

24     located.  We entered circles on the map.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.  Of course you realise that on

Page 27689

 1     preparing technical reports such as this one that it's important to be

 2     thorough in your analysis and to be objective and careful, right?

 3        A.   Yes, that is correct.  And we tried to act in accordance, we

 4     mostly based our work on the accurate establishment of the spots where

 5     communication was possible.  That's why there were two of us on the job,

 6     to establish to which point audibility was possible.

 7        Q.   All right.  And to that effect you know that it's important to

 8     meticulously document the procedure that you undertook, right, in

 9     preparing the report and in conducting the test?

10        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I stated the exact coordinates where we

11     were located when we were testing the communication.  I repeat that those

12     are geographical coordinates established by means of a Garmin GPS.

13        Q.   It's also important in a report, technical report as this one is,

14     to identify the methodology that you used in conducting the tests that

15     are reported, right?

16        A.   Yes.  The methodology is one of the things that is part of the

17     report.  This is a short report with some annexes merely to show the

18     configuration of the terrain where we worked.  But I repeat that we based

19     our work on a simple test of radio communication, which means from the

20     geographical locations where my colleague and I were present where we

21     checked the communication physically using radios on the ground.  And we

22     entered the coordinates of our precise whereabouts at any given moment.

23     I think that weather conditions would not have affected the test results

24     given the short distances at which we were operating.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.  It would be important to put

Page 27690

 1     this kind of information, that is the methodology, how you did the tests,

 2     under what circumstances you did the tests, what devices you used, how

 3     you used them, in a report, right?

 4        A.   That is correct, but this was left to us to assess the best way

 5     of conducting this test.  This is what we came up with.  We think that

 6     this was the best and the simplest way to conduct the test.

 7        Q.   All right.  But you are aware, of course, that in the absence of

 8     that kind of information it makes it difficult to understand how the test

 9     was carried out, it makes it difficult to repeat or replicate the results

10     of the tests and the results of the procedures that are employed in

11     conducting those tests.  You would agree with that, right?

12        A.   I agree that it's impossible to replicate this type of test.  The

13     only thing that can be replicated is the geographical coordinates or

14     locations and at the very same locations radio communication can be

15     tested.  There are the exact coordinates, and if you use the same kind of

16     GPS you can go to the very same places where we were at at the time.

17        Q.   All right.  Well, let me just jump ahead a little bit and then

18     I'll come back to this.  But you've testified here today that there were

19     a number of factors, environmental factors that influence the possibility

20     to establish a radio communication from one point to another, right?

21        A.   Yes, of course.  That's what I've said.  Those are the general

22     factors that influence any kind of radio communication.

23        Q.   And one of those factors happens to be, well, the weather.

24     Right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 27691

 1        Q.   And the weather is relatively fluid, it changes from time to

 2     time, right?

 3        A.   Yes, that is correct.  That's one of the things that we cannot

 4     change.

 5        Q.   And those changes in weather can have an effect, clearly, on

 6     whether or not you are able to receive or transmit -- well, I suppose,

 7     receive a radio signal at any given moment, right?

 8        A.   Yes, that is correct.  But I must stress that weather conditions

 9     play a role exclusively when communication is established over a longer

10     distance.  And if you use devices that operate on short frequencies and

11     if you use radio relays.  Talking about this type of equipment, the

12     weather conditions affect them very slightly.

13        Q.   In any event, it would be important to record what those weather

14     conditions were, wouldn't it?  As a matter of being accurate and complete

15     in your analysis, right?

16        A.   If we want to have a full analysis, a 100 per cent analysis

17     including all details, we would have to -- we would require the weather

18     conditions from a metrological station in -- nearby, because I cannot

19     establish the weather conditions myself.  I can only tell what I can see

20     from the place where I'm located at that moment.  All other conditions

21     such as air, humidity, cloud, altitude, temperature, require more precise

22     measurements at the given moment and on that location because those

23     factors can differ from place to place.

24        Q.   Well, you say, "if we want to have a full analysis, a 100 per

25     cent analysis," is there something wrong with that from your point of

Page 27692

 1     view?

 2        A.   No, there is nothing wrong with that.  But that would have

 3     burdened the report because I think that the weather conditions would not

 4     have greatly affected the results in this report between the two spots at

 5     that moment.  Weather conditions do affect communication, but they would

 6     not have a significant impact in this case given the distance, if that's

 7     what you mean.

 8        Q.   All right.  Well, one way to determine whether or not weather

 9     conditions have an impact in given transmission is to have repeated the

10     test on different day, wouldn't it be?  Wouldn't that be a reasonable way

11     to determine whether or not weather is a factor in the test results that

12     you managed to obtain?

13        A.   Yes, of course.  You can take a reference point, or something,

14     and test all power, make a trial on that day with all the data from

15     metrological station and then --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness should be asked to speak a little

17     slower please and repeat what he just said.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Mr. Markovic, the interpreters are

19     having a few problems.  If you could repeat your answer and also speak

20     more slowly, please.  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise if I speak fast.  I'll

22     try to slow down.  So let me repeat.

23             It would have had an effect, but we would have to take a

24     reference point on a certain day, get information from a metrological

25     station about the conditions in the atmosphere at specific geographic

Page 27693

 1     coordinates.  By using the same frequencies and the same radio devices,

 2     make several measurements, compare those reports, and then we would have

 3     exact whether the weather conditions, as one of the factors effect radio

 4     communication between two coordinates and to what extent in terms of

 5     percentages.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 7        Q.   All right.  Well, the report that you prepared proposes to

 8     establish the audibility of radio signals from various locations along

 9     this Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road.  As a general proposition, certainly

10     not just on the 17th of September as I think the date that you tested.

11     And the reason why I ask this question is in order to determine what the

12     conditions are or radio reception as a general perception on that road,

13     it would make sense to test what those properties are on more than one

14     occasion on one day in September of 2008.  Would you agree with that

15     proposition?

16        A.   Yes, I would agree, but I've said as much already that several

17     measurements would have to be made, and I didn't mean on the same day but

18     under different weather conditions and at different times of day.  As I

19     chose, the time-period and the weather conditions, the results were as

20     you can see in this report.

21        Q.   All right.  Based on your report -- let me just back up, I'm

22     sorry.  Based on your report, it appears that you conducted these two

23     types of testing, one had to do with the use of a computer model

24     programme and the other had to do with the field testing as you've

25     described.  That's correct, right?

Page 27694

 1        A.   We used a computer programme to illustrate the results

 2     graphically, what things look like on the ground.  But for detailed, 100

 3     per cent accurate establishment of the possibility of radio

 4     communication, we tested radio communication directly at the locations.

 5        Q.   All right.  I just want to ask you some questions about the

 6     computer based analysis that you did or representation.  The programme

 7     that you used in this case is what's called a HerTZ Mapper programme,

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes, correct.

10        Q.   A HerTZ Mapper programme is a commercially available radio

11     network modeling tool, and it can be used by radio engineers, planners,

12     network designers, and so on and so forth, right?

13        A.   Yes.  There are various computer programmes.  This is a standard

14     programme of an older generation.  We used what we had at our disposal at

15     that moment.  We use a digital maps for that programme which I -- and

16     these digital maps are not the same as topographic maps.  And not all

17     altitudes are entered into these digital maps.  That's why we used this

18     programme only, as I said, to represent graphically what the audibility

19     of radio communication under ideal conditions would be.  And we obtained

20     our real results by directly testing the radio communication on the

21     ground.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, it's fairly common knowledge among people in the

23     field that these types of commercial programmes are available and they

24     can be used to establish at least theoretical possibility of

25     communications from point to point, right?

Page 27695

 1        A.   Yes, there are various kinds of programmes.  Some programmes are

 2     meant to be used only for certain types of radio devices.  This is a

 3     general programme.  Some programmes use radio defusion stations to

 4     establish the possibility of propagation of radio waves at a certain

 5     spot, to establish theoretically which area can be covered.  And when

 6     we -- when we tried to establish the range of some devices, then we used

 7     that programme to see what we can expect so as to be able to prepare.

 8        Q.   All right.  And so the programme can be used to establish, for

 9     example, the theoretical possibility of communications between two

10     stationary points, right?

11        A.   No.  This is used exclusively and in this case for the testing of

12     the propagation of radio waves of an emitter at maximum power at a given

13     geographical coordinate.

14        Q.   Are you saying that the programme that you used can't determine

15     whether or not you can establish connectivity between a point to point

16     radio -- a point to point communication?  You can't establish that

17     through the programme that you used?

18        A.   No.  That cannot be determined.  You can only determine the

19     propagation of electro-magnetic waves, but you must also take into

20     consideration that digital maps do not fully coincide with topographical

21     maps because they do not contain all altitude points.

22        Q.   What version of this programme might I ask that you were using?

23        A.   I'm not fully sure.  I think it's HerTZ Mapper 2.0, but I'm not

24     certain.  We can verify that.

25        Q.   Are you aware that the HerTZ Mapper programme has the possibility

Page 27696

 1     to enter myriad variables in order to determine relatively accurately or

 2     more accurately the possibility of communication from point to point

 3     radios, mobile radio communications; are you aware that the programme has

 4     that possibility in this day and age?

 5        A.   Yes, of course.  I think aware of that.  This is a programme with

 6     many possibilities.  I am not an expert for this programme as I have

 7     stated.  We used that programme to graphically illustrate the propagation

 8     of radio -- electro-magnetic waves on the ground.  And an exact test of

 9     radio communication was made by our presence on the ground at specific

10     geographical coordinates and by using the radio devices in question.

11     That's what we stated in our report and -- but you're right, the HerTZ

12     Mapper programme has huge possibilities for entering parameters and

13     obtaining results.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, I don't want this to be a secret shared between

15     us, but the parameters that that programme has available that you can

16     actually define and input range from the terrain data itself to whether

17     or not there is ground clutter, you can programme the -- you can

18     programme in whether or not the transmission occurs in a rural area, an

19     urban area, whether or not there is forest in the area, whether or not

20     there is water in the area, wood in the area, you can define what type of

21     propagation model, you can define whether that's in free space, you can

22     define whether or not you have the Fresnal effects, as you say, you can

23     define whether or not of you have the phenomenon known as troposcattering

24     or tropospheric ducting, as I mentioned.  You can define all these

25     parameters in that programme and then some.  That's true, isn't it?

Page 27697

 1        A.   Yes, your quite correct.  That's true.  But I have to point out

 2     that even after having entered all such information you only get a

 3     projection.  But what actually happens on the ground is something that

 4     you have to directly test there.  This is just a model, a projection.  It

 5     can tell you what sort of things you can expect in the field, you're

 6     quite right.  But we carried out investigations on the ground.  What we

 7     did by using the HerTZ Map programme was just done to give you a graphic

 8     depiction of what the situation was like on the ground.

 9        Q.   Well, in order to give us a graphic depiction of what the

10     situation was like on the ground you had to enter certain information,

11     right?  The type of information you might want to enter is the power of

12     the transmitter; did you enter that information?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What did you enter it as because we don't have a record of that

15     in your report?

16        A.   As I have said, under ideal conditions it's are 5 watts.  That

17     would be the maximum power of the device.

18        Q.   That would be the maximum power of the device at a certain

19     frequency range; isn't that true?

20        A.   Yes, let me clarify this immediately since I can see that it's

21     not quite clear.  We entered the information, we entered the geographical

22     coordinates, and we entered information on the power of the device as

23     well as information on altitude.

24        Q.   The device -- one of the devices anyway that you studied or you

25     looked at was the Motorola GP300, right?

Page 27698

 1        A.   Yes.  GP300.

 2        Q.   The other device that you looked at was a -- was a Motorola

 3     OP030, right?

 4        A.   Yes.  These -- this is information, rather, that we took from the

 5     front panel of the radio device manufacture had noted this information on

 6     the front panel of the device.  It wasn't information obtained from the

 7     technical specifications.

 8        Q.   Did you review the technical specifications of the radios that

 9     you tested in relation to the preparation of your report?

10        A.   Yes.  Only some details, though, not all of the specifications.

11        Q.   Well, in respect to specifications of the Motorola OP030, you say

12     that you found out the power of transmission by looking at the radio

13     itself; is that right?

14        A.   Let me clarify this to make it simpler and easier.  When it comes

15     to the technical aspect -- well, since we have a communications

16     administration, we asked them to programme those radio devices for us so

17     that they were used on certain frequencies.  In order to check the

18     communications system.  In the case of the GP300 device, we used channel

19     number 1, and we asked them to programme the channels at random by using

20     that frequency range.  And with regard to the programme that you

21     mentioned, well, we input the frequencies.  But regardless of that fact,

22     we tried to establish communications by using a number of channels and

23     the results were absolutely identical.

24             What the maximum force of output was at the time is not something

25     I could inform you of since there are a number of factors that can effect

Page 27699

 1     this.  It depends on the battery, the antenna, and the frequency.  We

 2     tried to ensure that the batteries were fully charged, and we tried to

 3     simulate optimal conditions.  The results obtained, the devices we used,

 4     well, you have information on the results obtained and the devices used

 5     in our report.  As for all other technical specifications, well, we did

 6     not note them since we tried radio communications by using a number of

 7     channels.  So whatever frequency we used, the results at those distances

 8     were absolutely identical.

 9        Q.   All right.  Well, you say in your report, and this is at page 2

10     of your report, and I'll just read it.  I don't know necessarily that we

11     need to display it, but you say that:

12             "These devices alone have the maximum power output of 5 a watts

13     which depending on the land configuration in real conditions at the

14     tactical and maneuver soil," it says in my copy, "Theoretically amounts

15     to two to five kilometres' range."  That's what you've written in your

16     report.  Do you see that in your report?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Now, with respect to the range of those portable devices, from 2

19     to 5 kilometres, did you get that the manufacture specifications for the

20     radio or did you get that from some other source?

21        A.   No, didn't receive this information from the manufacturer.  These

22     are things that we dealt with in the course of my education at the

23     militarily academy, all handheld radio devices of this type, regardless

24     of the manufacturer, were assumed to be devices that could be used in

25     tactical maneuver terrain in order to establish communications at

Page 27700

 1     distances between 2 and 5 kilometres.  We didn't take into consideration

 2     [as interpreted] the technical specifications for all the reasons that we

 3     have mentioned --

 4        Q.   All right.

 5        A.   -- in my presentation.

 6        Q.   You also mention in page 2 in your report as my colleague

 7     Mr. Gosnell went over with you yesterday, that you had established that

 8     there were no active amplifying inter-stations that could amplify the

 9     range of the radio connection --

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  The transcript reads,

12     and I believe the translation came through as "we didn't take into

13     consideration the technical specifications," I'm informed that the

14     witness said that "we did not rely on the technical specifications."

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Do you confirm that, Mr. Markovic?  We

16     are talking of lines 17 to 19 of page 45.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We didn't rely on or base

18     ourselves on the technical specifications.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:

20        Q.   All right.  Well, then maybe I should rephrase my question.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:

23        Q.   Did you review the technical specifications of the devices that

24     you tested in relation to the range that you mention on page 2 of your

25     report?  And if you, what did you say?

Page 27701

 1        A.   I don't have the technical specifications for those devices, but

 2     on the basis of our request we asked our communications centre to provide

 3     us with devices that used such frequencies and that had such an output

 4     strength.  And that is why we did not rely on technical specifications.

 5        Q.   So as you sit here today, you can't tell this Trial Chamber what

 6     the technical specifications for the Motorola GP300 or the Motorola OP030

 7     are with respect to the stated range by the manufacturer; is that what

 8     you're saying?

 9        A.   Well, look.  I can't remember all the technical specifications

10     when you're provided with the technical specifications of a radio device.

11     Well, the material is voluminous, you are provided with all the details

12     of the device.  I really can't remember all that information, but you do

13     have access to all the technical specifications.  All I can say is that

14     when I was drafting the report, we tested the devices at given

15     frequencies and these are the results that we obtained.

16             As for what you are requesting, well, it would require checking

17     communications by using the entire range of frequencies, entire specter.

18             We would have to go a few megahertz above and a few megahertz

19     below the range in order to be quite certain about the results.  Such

20     tests are practically impossible if we were to take into consideration

21     all these frequencies.  It would be very difficult.  When you change the

22     frequency and when you change the battery, the device acts differently.

23     The radio devices that I worked with, the specifications of which I was

24     familiar with, are devices I -- I used.  For example, it says "100 watts"

25     for the technical specifications, but the instructions for maintaining

Page 27702

 1     the device say that at certain frequencies, and when using certain

 2     antenna, you have a force of 120 watts -- strength of 120 watts.

 3             What I can tell you, on the basis of my experience, is that the

 4     manufacturer always mentions that certain conditions should be taken into

 5     account when you use these devices.  Perhaps he added certain extra

 6     parameters or perhaps he reduced the parameters.  There are thousands of

 7     factors on the radio device itself that could result in such a situation.

 8     We used a number of channels, that's all I can repeat.  We obtained the

 9     same results at a certain geographical location.  We established that was

10     impossible [as interpreted] to establish communications.

11        Q.   Mr. Markovic, with all due are respect --

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

13             Mr. Gosnell.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  I sincerely apologise too my colleagues for having

15     to interrupt.  I am informed that there are a number of transcription or

16     perhaps translation errors in the first half of that answer, in

17     particular at line 8, or 9, the witness inserted the word "almost" before

18     "impossible."  Clearly, that's very important, and I wanted to put that

19     on the record now.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  The place where I have -- the line where I have the

21     word "impossible" is line 11.  I don't know about what line is it in your

22     transcript, Mr. Gosnell?

23             MR. GOSNELL:  On my screen, it does appear to be line 9.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  It starts with, "Such and such results are

25     impossible," that's what we are talking about, no?

Page 27703

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  I believe so, but I have to confess it just

 2     disappeared from my scene.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  But anyway, you need to be to freeze your screen in

 4     order to be able to -- anyway, it's on mine, I am sure they will find

 5     exactly the location.  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Mr. Markovic, with all due respect, you prepared this report in

 9     contemplation of two very specific portable radio devices.  These aren't

10     just any portable radio devices.  You've actually stated the model number

11     in your report.  You prepared this report in contemplation of its

12     submission to a Trial Chamber constituted to try a case of this

13     seriousness; and you tried this report in contemplation or bringing some

14     modicum of certainty to the question of whether or not certain radio

15     communications are possible along this Konjevic Polje-Bratunac Road from

16     very specific and pinpointed locations.

17             With all due respect, you've come to court today having read your

18     report and being prepared to testify; and you tell us you can't remember

19     the specifications of the devices that are the subject -- exclusive

20     subject of your report?

21             Tell us, Mr. Markovic, why is it that you didn't take field notes

22     or get or obtain copies of the manufacturer's specifications with respect

23     to these two very specific radios?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honour, I object to the editorial remark

Page 27704

 1     before the question.  It's not related to a question.  It's comment on

 2     the witness's testimony, and it's improper.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to comment, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are not as disturbed as you are by it,

 8     Mr. Gosnell.  After all, we are in cross-examination.  So let's proceed.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   Can you answer the question, sir?

11        A.   Could you please repeat the question.  On a number of occasions I

12     said that I wasn't claiming anything for certain.  I wasn't saying that

13     it was 100 per cent certain.  I said that whenever checking radio

14     communications there are several factors, and we can never be 100 per

15     cent certain about the results.  I said that at the beginning of my

16     testimony, and I'll now repeat that whenever checking radio

17     communications and especially at shorter distances -- well, just a few

18     centimetres can affect the results, a few metres on the basis of my

19     experience.  Certain radio communications cannot be established:  When

20     you move a metre or the left or to the right then radio communications

21     could to a certain extent be established.  I am just telling you about

22     what we did in the field.

23             We drafted a very simple report to present here in a simple

24     manner how we operated, and to show that we checked radio communications

25     at those geographical coordinates alone --

Page 27705

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly asked to slow down a bit

 2     for the sake of the interpretation.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and there is something else I

 4     should add.  We didn't go into detail technical specifications, and

 5     you've been insisting on this because you thought that it was not

 6     necessary.

 7             And I think that all the factors that we have mentioned here

 8     effect the situation with regard to that radio device.  And in the end,

 9     when operating at such distances and when using such radio devices, the

10     Motorola GP300 or some other kind of device, well, the results would not

11     have been significantly different.  The results would have been different

12     had a very powerful device been used, because the propagating of

13     electro-magnetic waves long the surface, because of such propagation

14     perhaps the results would have been different.  The results that we have

15     presented here are the results that you can see in the report.

16        Q.   Understood, Mr. Markovic.  Understood.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Markovic, please again, recommendation to slow

18     down because of the interpreters, please.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:

20        Q.   My question, was, sir --

21        A.   I apologise.  That's quite a lot of information, so sometimes I

22     start speaking a little more rapidly.  I'll try to slow down.

23        Q.   My question, Mr. Markovic, was did you maintain field notes when

24     you conducted the field test?  And you can tell us yes or no.  You did or

25     you didn't.

Page 27706

 1        A.   We kept notes with regard to where we were located when checking

 2     the communications.

 3        Q.   You say and you did mention earlier that moving a metre to the

 4     left or a metre to the right can effect the reception or communication.

 5     Did you record that in your field notes because it's not in your report?

 6        A.   As I have already said, when checking communications at point 6,

 7     it was impossible to establish radio communications while we were in the

 8     vehicle.  When we left the vehicle, when we got out of the vehicle, and

 9     you have to agree with me that this would involve moving a few metres

10     away from the vehicle, when we did this we established communications.

11     And the ratio was 2:1 [Realtime transcript read in error, "to"].

12        Q.   And I want to know if you recorded this in your field notes.  You

13     can answer that yes or no.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  I apologise again for interrupting.  The result

16     ratio is not expressed correctly in the transcript.  It was 2:1 at line

17     20.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  It's line 22 in mine.  So the end of

19     the previous -- of the last answer of the witness, and the ratio was 2:1

20     instead of what we have in the transcript, which is the ratio was 2:1.

21     Thank you.  Let's proceed.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:

23        Q.   Mr. Markovic, you can answer yes or no.  Did you record these

24     results in your field notes?

25        A.   I recorded quite a lot of information.  And in my report I think

Page 27707

 1     I wrote down that communications were checked in and out of the car.  I

 2     probably had this information noted in my notes when working in the

 3     field, too.  Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to draft this report as

 4     I did, because we checked communications both in and out of the vehicle.

 5        Q.   I take it you couldn't have been at the transmitting end and the

 6     receiving end at the same time.  That's fair to say, right?

 7        A.   Of course, it's physically impossible.  As I said at the

 8     beginning I did this together with my colleague.  He was at positions 1

 9     and 2, and I was at point 6.

10        Q.   And did your colleague move a metre to the left or a metre to the

11     right when he was at positions 1 and 2, and is that recorded in the field

12     notes?  That's what I want to know.

13        A.   Well, those would be his notes.  I don't know whether he moved a

14     metre or two.  I assumed that he moved a metre or two away because this

15     is quite usual when checking communications.  You move a couple of metres

16     to the left or to the right to check communications.  But as to what he

17     did exactly, I can't be certain because I was 4 kilometres away from him.

18        Q.   All right.  And you didn't review his field notes before you put

19     this report together.  That's fair to say, right?

20        A.   I didn't have a look at all the details of his notes.  Naturally

21     he kept notes at the location because he also had a GPS device on him in

22     order to determine the locations concerned.  But naturally, I'll just

23     repeat that this is usually done when establishing radio communications.

24     You try to change your location, to move around a bit, in order to

25     establish communications.  My colleague was at the geographical location

Page 27708

 1     stated here, and he probably moved; but I can't claim that for certain or

 2     with a hundred per cent certainty.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let me move to a different area.  If I could draw

 4     your attention to Annex 8 and 9 of your report.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That is -- page 14 and 15 in both languages.

 6     Actually, what I'd like to do is to compare the two of them, and that

 7     would mean to putting up page 14 in one and page 15 in the other

 8     language.  Thank you.  I wonder if we could zoom in a little bit on both

 9     of them so that the colour part is broader.  Thank you very much.

10        Q.   Yesterday on direct examination you were asked about these two

11     particular diagrams and you indicated that -- or you were explaining the

12     colour scheme, and you said, "The areas in blue is the areas where it is

13     only theoretically possible to establish communications," for my

14     colleagues this is page 62 of yesterday's transcript.  I don't think the

15     pagination corresponds, but in any event it was page 62 line 20 through

16     page 63, line 3.

17             And you say:  "The blue areas are where it's only theoretically

18     possible to establish communication; however, the communication is poor

19     or extremely poor."

20             And you say:  "The grey areas are where it is absolutely

21     impossible to establish any sort of communications with the devices I had

22     at my disposal."

23             Do you remember that testimony, sir?

24        A.   Yes, I remember, and that is correct.  But this is only a

25     theoretical assumption which needn't mean it is that way in practice.

Page 27709

 1        Q.   All right.  I just want to establish that you recall that

 2     testimony.  Now, if you look at these two diagrams, you look at the one

 3     on the left which is annex 9 in your report.  You can see the grey areas,

 4     for example, near the area that's depicted -- where you can see the

 5     number 12 or 1-2.  You see those grey areas?

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7        Q.   All right.  You see them in others areas all over the map.  But

 8     in particular if you look at the one where it says 12 on annex 9, and you

 9     look at the outline of the blue areas where it says 12 on Annex 8, you

10     can see that they actually correspond identically.  In other words, those

11     grey areas are on Annex 9 are the blue areas on Annex 8, exactly, right?

12     Pixel for pixel.

13        A.   I suppose that is the case, but this isn't due to any of my

14     doing.  But these are again theoretical representations only to render

15     our report more plastic.  I -- I have no influence on this.  We

16     physically tested radio communication, but my colleague entered the

17     parameters and the programme.  I was there, of course, but he entered the

18     parameters, and we wanted this to be an illustration of our work, a

19     graphical depiction.  How the programme computed that and represented it

20     on the digital map has nothing to do with me.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, what I'm saying or what I'm asking you, I

22     guess, is isn't it the case that the grey areas that are depicted in

23     annex 9 are simply showing you what the difference is between the two

24     devices and not as you stated yesterday areas where it's impossible to

25     establish communications with the devices that you had?  Isn't it I

Page 27710

 1     simply the case that Annex 9 is an overlay of Annex 8?

 2        A.   I cannot answer with certainty.  I can only say that the same

 3     data was entered at different geographical locations but what the

 4     programme made of it is shown here.  I cannot influence that.  We only --

 5     we used the same parameters with different frequencies.

 6        Q.   All right.  So are you telling us that you're not sure what the

 7     grey areas depict?

 8        A.   No.  When we were using this, an explanation is -- can be found.

 9     It says that the grey areas are those where communication is not

10     possible.  But to be sure, you would have to go to the very spot and

11     physically test communication on that frequency.  Even though this is

12     grey or even -- or possibly blue, that does not mean that communication

13     is either possible or impossible.  It is only a computer model which

14     shows the terrain and what the propagation of electro-magnetic waves is

15     roughly like, but we relied exclusively on a physically test.

16        Q.   And thank you for that?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Again, apologise for interrupting, but I believe

19     there is a problem with the translation.  I don't want to project what

20     the issue is, but I can put it like this, and I think it won't cause any

21     harm; I believe there was an inversion of the adjectives in relation to

22     the first two nouns mentioned in the second sentence of lines 10 and 11.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you be more precise?  Let's identify which

24     lines.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I understand it's lines 12

Page 27711

 1     and 13 on the other --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, mine 12 and 13 starts "I cannot answer with

 3     certainty ..."

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Correct.  And then it's the follow sentence, and I

 5     believe -- or I'm led to believe that the adjectives used there are

 6     actually inverted in relation to the first two nouns.  And I don't want

 7     to say specifically to you out loud what I'm specifically saying or

 8     referring to.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  You under normal circumstances I would read it as

10     this to the witness, have it translated to him, and ask him for his

11     comments.  But I want to be to make sure that there is no repetition of

12     it when it is translated.

13             Mr. Markovic, sometime back, about a minute ago, you were asked

14     the following question:  "Isn't it simply the case that Annex 9 is an

15     overlay of Annex 8?"

16             And your answer, according to the transcript, was as follows:

17             "I cannot answer with certainty.  I can only say that the same

18     data was entered at different geographical locations, but what the

19     programme made of it is shown here.  I cannot influence that.  We only --

20     we only used the same parameters with different frequencies."

21             I take it this has been translated to you now.  Does it

22     correspond to what you actually said previously in your own language?  Or

23     do you want to explain further to us.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that, but at different

25     geographical coordinates is wrong.  It was at the same geographical

Page 27712

 1     coordinates.  In this case, I referred to point 2.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is that what you had in mind, Mr. Gosnell?  Because

 3     I think it's different.  I think you can be direct and make it clear.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  From the context of the annexes, and I'm sure my

 5     colleague will agree, it's clear that this -- it can't be same data at

 6     the same geographic locations.  That's simply not correct.  And I think

 7     if we understand the context, it's clear that the adjectives were

 8     actually inverted.  But I'm sorry for being so blunt about that in front

 9     of the witness.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  It's okay, I mean.  At the end of the day we

11     want to see clear on this.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  And thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:

15        Q.   All right.  Mr. Markovic, I'm going to try and speed things up

16     because I can see that my time is practically up, but I think I will ask

17     the Trial Chamber for its indulgence.

18             Okay.  One of the things that's contained in your report is a

19     soil profile.  And you said before that the terrain can influence a radio

20     transmission.  You will be able to receive a radio transmission.  Yes or

21     no, right?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   And one of the soil profiles that you generated in this case, you

24     generated, let's see, Annex 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I can have Annex 1 in e-court, please.

Page 27713

 1     That's at page 7.  All right.  If we could move, I think to the left of

 2     the screen it would be easier to see.

 3        Q.   This is depicted in your report as a soil profile on the road

 4     communication.  It says, "Sandici-Kravica warehouse."  It says is start

 5     point here is Sandici and that the ending point is 1.2 kilometres away

 6     from the point of reference.  I take it that's from left to right.  Is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yes, from left to right.

 9        Q.   And the graph indicates the certain data points with respect to

10     the soil profile.  And that's why it has those, well, irregular angles as

11     opposed to a more smooth contour, right?

12        A.   Yes.  Unfortunately the programme we use is limited because it

13     can't represent contours smaller than 2 kilometres.  It was very

14     difficult for us.  We had to take a larger area.  This was intended for a

15     graphic depiction of the contours of the terrain.  But it is 3

16     dimensional, so it's difficult to see here.  But you can suppose based on

17     these peaks what the terrain was like.  This contour does not follow the

18     road, though, it follows the optical lines.  The line of sight.

19        Q.   Thank you, for that.  Now, what this shows is that from the

20     starting point, which is Sandici, that the soil rises, right?  It goes

21     from 200 to 290 or so metres and it rises over a distance of say 500

22     metres, some 50 or so metres; is that right?  That's the first data

23     point.

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.  But I must stress again that digital maps

25     were used that were not topographic maps and did not contain all details.

Page 27714

 1     We only used what was in the map by default, and that's what we

 2     represented.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...  I just want to make sure

 4     that I am interpreting this graph correctly and what it shows is a rise

 5     in the elevation of the soil over a distance in the direction of Kravica

 6     from Sandici.  That's correct.

 7        A.   Just a moment, please.  Yes, the starting point is at 282 metres.

 8        Q.   And from there it rises to -- well, close to 400 metres.  You can

 9     see that in your diagram.  That's true, right?

10        A.   Yes.  That's what the computer programme shows, but if you can go

11     to the place itself, the surrounding hills and mountains dominate the

12     spot where we were.

13        Q.   All right.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could have in e-court please 65 ter 2986,

15     and it's page 49 of that document.  All right.  If we could just blow up

16     the image on the right to fill the screen, that would be helpful, with

17     the captions, that might even be more helpful.  All right.  Thank you

18     very much.

19        Q.   What's depicted in this photograph is a shot where you can see

20     the Sandici meadow and you can see Kravica warehouse.  That's marked by

21     arrows, and from that point where you see the arrow pointing down to

22     Sandici meadow of the Kravica warehouse, can you identify this incline

23     that's depicted in your terrain profile in Annex 1 in your report?

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Maybe we could just blow it up in the direction

25     of -- in the right corner of this.

Page 27715

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that this is Sandici

 2     meadow and that this is the location we are speaking about.  And the

 3     profile, is such that the height contour is fall toward Sandici and to

 4     the Kravica warehouse.  The diagram is a two-dimensional representation

 5     and does not take into consideration all lower height contours that can

 6     in turn be seen on a topographical map.  And that's why communication

 7     between the two points is possible, and we indeed mentioned that it is

 8     five -- over five, or in other words 100 per cent.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   All right.  Well can you identify the incline that's depicted in

11     your annex?  Maybe you want a pen so that you can circle this and mark it

12     for us.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Usher.  Yes, you want to correct the

14     transcript?  I said Madam Usher when I should have said --

15             MR. GOSNELL:  No, Mr. President.  I don't wish to do that.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  I apologise to the usher, anyway.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  I believe in order to make this representation or

18     objection that the witness is going to have to leave the room.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, because he understands English as you put it

20     yesterday.

21             Mr. Markovic, you need to leave the courtroom for a short while.

22     We'll call you back very soon.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I think it would be in all fairness

Page 27716

 1     to the witness it would be better to put a topographic map to him.  I can

 2     see just from the angle of this photograph that it's rife with confusion.

 3     He easily could make an error, and these arrows might mislead him to draw

 4     a line from one direction from the other.  This is a question also of the

 5     difference between two dimensions and three dimensions.  I think in many

 6     respects it would be easy for the witness to make a mistake in respect of

 7     this photograph, and I don't think that would fairly reflect what appears

 8     in Annex 1.  And so I think in fairness witness, he ought to be shown a

 9     topographic map and then he could do this more accurately and explain it

10     in a way that would be helpful to the Chamber.

11             This is just leading the witness into a confusion that I don't

12     think is particularly fair.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to comment, Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I can respond briefly, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I mean, it's established on the record that

17     witness drove on the road.  The witness is actually at the specific

18     locations that are depicted in this map.  Not only does he have a

19     personal familiarity with the area because he was actually there, he also

20     has absolute familiarity with the document that he produced and to the

21     extent that the document establishes a familiar feature of the land which

22     he ostensibly drove on.  He should be able to identify it, and I don't

23     think it's the source of any confusion whatsoever.

24             And also, to the extent that he's confused he can certainly state

25     that.  And he's set up exhumation net works before, he's fully familiar

Page 27717

 1     with how to interpret what he sees on a photograph with what he sees on

 2     had a graphic representation that he generated and what he sees on a

 3     topographical map.  So it's not the source of any confusion whatsoever to

 4     this witness, and I would object to the interruption.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, object to that objection.  I think it's a

 7     potentially fair objection.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go straight to the point.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  I will, Your Honour.  I've been to this location

10     myself and I could easily make a mistake.  Based upon the angle of the

11     photograph, he's never seen this photograph before.  This does create a

12     certain perspective which I would suggest could be misleading to the

13     witness.  If he had seen this photograph before or if we have any

14     information on the record that he's seen photographs from any angle that

15     would assist him in familiarity with the train, fine.  But we know that

16     he's worked off topographic maps and that he applied his physical

17     location at the spot to those topographic maps, and that's how he came up

18     with Annex 1 and 2 and the other annexes.  So I think with the greatest

19     respect to my learned friend opposite that this is misleading and it

20     would be best to use a topographic map.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  But can't you take this up on redirect and show him

22     a topographic map yourself.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Certainly, Your Honours, but, nonetheless, there is

24     still in my view unfairness that is going to arise if he draws the line

25     in the wrong direction.  And then of course the Prosecutor is going to

Page 27718

 1     pounce on him and suggest that he doesn't know anything about this.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We believe having followed this witness now

 5     for a few hours that he is fully capable of letting us know if he feels

 6     confused by this photo that we have on the screen.  And in any case, you

 7     can take this matter up on redirect using whatever material you deem fit,

 8     Mr. Gosnell.  So let's bring the witness back into the courtroom,

 9     please.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  May I proceed, Mr. Mr. President?

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please.  I was just trying to find I think you

13     have to go back to lines 19 to 21 of page 60.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's where you were.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:

17        Q.   My question to you, Mr. Markovic, is whether you could identify

18     the incline that's depicted in your Annex 1 from this photograph?  And if

19     you can't, let us know.

20        A.   I cannot do that because this is a two-dimensional image, and it

21     was taken from a certain angle.  This doesn't correspond to the real

22     situation on the ground.  I don't know to what extent anything I could

23     draw would be accurate, because if we look at a two-dimensional image,

24     altitudes can look differently.  Whatever I mark here would not

25     necessarily correspond to the real situation.

Page 27719

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Could I have 65 ter 23871, please.  877, sorry.

 2     I'm sorry, 3877.

 3        Q.   What I am showing you is a map that was generated by our mapping

 4     unit based upon the information grid coordinates that were provided in

 5     your report.  From point 1 Sandici meadow to point 2 Kravica warehouse.

 6     In addition to that, what you see at the bottom of your screen is a soil

 7     profile from those two locations.

 8             Contrary to your Annex 1, what you see from the initial location

 9     towards the direction of Kravica warehouse, is a decline in the elevation

10     of the soil as opposed to a rise.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Now, I wondered if we could zoom in on the top

12     half of this screen.

13        Q.   If you are able, based upon the line that you can see from

14     Sandici meadow to Kravica warehouse to identify what's depicted in your

15     Annex 1 as a rise in the elevation level.  Where would you have observed

16     that at the time that you conducted these field tests?  And of course, if

17     you are unable to do that let us know.

18        A.   Just a moment, please.  We mentioned in the report that this

19     point is at a lower elevation than the point at Sandici.

20        Q.   I see that in your report.  What I'm asking you about is your

21     representation, your graphic representation in Annex 1 of your report.

22     That's what I'm asking you about.

23        A.   You are back on the two-dimensional graphical representation

24     again.  But if we look at it, then at 1.2 kilometres we will see that

25     this point is again lower than 828 [as interpreted] metres.  You're

Page 27720

 1     probably referring to the end point.  It was only our goal to show

 2     graphically the profile of the terrain in this section.

 3        Q.   All right.  Mr. Markovic, thank you for your explanation.  By the

 4     way, you did actually drive there this road right between Kravica and

 5     Sandici meadow?

 6        A.   Yes, several times on that day.

 7        Q.   About how far is it in your estimation?

 8        A.   1.2 kilometres.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   We -- that was the reading on the odometer in our vehicle.

11        Q.   1.2 kilometres.

12        A.   Yes.  We reset the counter at Sandici, and at Kravica we took the

13     reading.  So this is the length of the road communication.

14        Q.   Okay.  And about how far is it from Kravica warehouse to Hrncici,

15     point 6 in your report on the road?

16        A.   We took measurement on two occasions, from Krivaja to Sandici

17     it's 1.2 kilometres.  And then we took measurements to Hrncici again, not

18     the village of Hrncici, to the geographic coordinates and the distance

19     was 4.000 metres.

20        Q.   4.000 metres from Kravica warehouse?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  Mr. Gosnell.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry for interrupting on what may appear to be

24     a small matter, but I do think considering that we are talking about

25     numbers it's important.  Line 1 of 65, the witness did not say 828

Page 27721

 1     metres.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 3        Q.   Did you say that the elevation point at Krivaja warehouse is

 4     lower than the elevation point of Sandici meadow, right?

 5        A.   Yes.  That's the information that we obtained by using the GPS.

 6        Q.   And the information that you have is in your report, isn't it, as

 7     to the elevation between those two points.  And what it says in your

 8     report, just so the record is perfectly clear, is that at point 1, which

 9     is Sandici meadow, you add an elevation of metres and at Kravica

10     warehouse, you add an elevation of 276 metres.  That's right, isn't it?

11        A.   No.  276 metres.

12        Q.   All right.  Maybe there was a translation error, but that's what

13     I said.  Now, my specific questions in relation to those elevations has

14     to do not it with the elevation of the end points but the elevations of

15     the in-between points that are depicted in Annex 1 of your report, that

16     is the contour of the soil between.  And what I want to know is if you

17     able to identify what's depicted in that annex as a rise in elevation

18     level between those points on the exhibit that I have before you now?

19        A.   This isn't something we did, but we could have done it by using

20     the same GPS.  We could have taken certain points, a number of points,

21     and determined their altitude.  As far as I understood the matter, the

22     report should only determine whether communications could be established

23     between Kravica and Sandici.  We came to the conclusion that it was

24     possible to establish radio communications, and that's what we put in the

25     report.

Page 27722

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that, sir.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  We have gone past half past 12.00, so we need to

 3     have a break.  Can I have an idea of how much more time you require,

 4     Mr. Vanderpuye?

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I apologise for the slow pace.  I

 6     am -- I'm trying to go faster.  I think I have a number of exhibits yet

 7     to go through with this witness, and I'm -- I don't think I can do it in

 8     less than a half an hour or 40 minutes.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but we need to finish with him today.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I know.  I will try to cut down some over the

11     break and see if I can just hit the essential elements.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  And Mr. Gosnell, do you have a

13     redirect?

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Certainly.  And certainly particularly given that

15     this witness's report went into evidence and of course the examination

16     was limited in consequence.  I would say I at least have half an hour of

17     questions.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  That means he will have to stay here, because we

19     are -- the subject matter is important.  Unless you come to an agreement,

20     arrangement amongst yourselves to divide the remaining time, 45 minutes

21     less.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Try to the make an arrangement amongst

24     yourselves how to divide, and if we need to go past our time by a few

25     minutes, we will do that.

Page 27723

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Mr. President, we had

 6     an opportunity to discuss --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  You're not going finish today, I understand.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Oh.  You understand.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's proceed.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Mr. Markovic --

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Sorry, is there a problem?

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know if there is a problem.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:

15        Q.   Mr. Markovic, before the series of objections, I had asked you

16     about how far it was from Hrncici to Kravica.  I just want to get from

17     you what that distance is along the road?

18        A.   The distance was 5.200 metres up to the geographical location

19     that we reviewed to in the report.

20        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.  Now, let me move to a different

21     area.  You were asked in your direct examination about whether or not

22     there were amplifying inter-stations in the area or along the road, and

23     you indicated that you had spoken to somebody in the police station who

24     put you in touch with somebody who was in the signals unit who informed

25     you that there were no amplifying inter-stations -- well, I guess in

Page 27724

 1     Bratunac.  You remember that testimony?

 2        A.   Yes, I spoke to the deputy commander of the police station.  He

 3     called a worker in the police station who was a communications expert [as

 4     interpreted] at the time, and he confirmed this fact, this claim.

 5        Q.   And this communications expert, did you speak to that person

 6     directly?  --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.  The witness did not

 8     state expert, communications official.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   Communications official, did you speak to that person directly?

11        A.   Yes.  He entered the office.  I don't know what the person's name

12     was, but he [Realtime transcript read in error, "I"] said that there had

13     never been any amplification -- amplifying inter-stations.

14        Q.   I'm sorry, you said you don't know who the person's name was?

15        A.   I can't remember.  The deputy commander called that person and

16     that's what the person said.  That's what I can tell you.  That's what I

17     know.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry.  Page 69, line 12.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  "But he said," not, "but I said."  Or it may be

22     line 13.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  That's important.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:

25        Q.   All right.  You don't remember the person's name, is that right?

Page 27725

 1        A.   No, I don't.

 2        Q.   Do you know what his position was as a communications official?

 3        A.   I haven't got any information about the man.  I have no access to

 4     such information.

 5        Q.   Now, you indicated yesterday, I think, that you've commanded a

 6     unit that has set up radio links before, right?

 7        A.   Yes.  I was a commander of a platoon and a commander of a

 8     company.

 9        Q.   All right.  And you know, of course, how important it is to be

10     able to establish communication links particularly during combat

11     operations, right?

12        A.   That's one of the most important things one has to do.  Yes.

13        Q.   And it is also important to be able to set up communication links

14     during combat operations, such that the commander can communicate with

15     his subordinate units, right?

16        A.   Yes.  That is the purpose of establishing communications.

17        Q.   And you also know there is a normal practice that when a unit is

18     sent into a combat operations that a communications unit establishes such

19     links or is sent with the combat unit for that purpose?

20        A.   It depends on the decisions made by the commander.

21        Q.   Well, in your experience would it ever be the decision of a

22     commander to participate in a combat operation and specifically instruct

23     you not to establish communication links?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President.  It hasn't been established that the

Page 27726

 1     witness ever was in combat where, or when.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, he may have a point there.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 4        Q.   Were you in charge of a unit that established communication

 5     links, a platoon?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   And based upon what you were experienced while you were in the

 8     army and while you were in school, did you ever come across some

 9     information whereby a commander would specifically instruct a

10     communications unit not to set up communication links during a combat

11     operation?

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  I have to raise the same objection.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Do you wish to comment now?

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I don't really see the nature of my colleague's

16     objection.  This witness was a member of the armed forces, his specific

17     purpose as a member of the armed forces were his experience in the armed

18     forces provides somewhat --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop.  Go ahead.

20             Mr. Markovic, if you could answer the question.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was the commander of the

22     platoon or company, I was never submitted such a request.  I was a

23     commander of these units in peacetime and I never received such a request

24     nor would I understand the purpose of such a request.  Why should someone

25     order me not to establish communications.

Page 27727

 1        Q.   Now, you know it's entirely possible to set up a repeater as a

 2     practical matter simply by using two mobile radio.  One to receive a

 3     radio signal and one to transmit that signal on separate channel, right?

 4        A.   Yes.  There are semi-automatic ways and automatic ways of

 5     retransmitting the emission.

 6        Q.   And you can retranslate the emission at a higher power simply by

 7     receiving it on a device that has an ability to transmit at a higher

 8     power?

 9        A.   Yes.  Those are standard things that are usually used when you

10     have such communications systems.  On the whole, one mostly used

11     retranslation stations or amplifying station, but I must point out that

12     retranslation stations are used under urban conditions, in urban

13     situations; but these kinds of radio device are used for units of this

14     kind, which, in order to increase the range, should use retranslation

15     devices.  However, there is still the technical possibility for the

16     devices to function in simplex mode or from device to device in order to

17     clarify it more easily.

18        Q.   All right.  Now, according to your report you tested the Motorola

19     GP300 and OP30 based upon what you identified as a photograph provided to

20     you by the Defence.  Right?  That's on page 2 of your report.

21        A.   That's correct.  On the basis of that photograph I could identify

22     the antenna, I saw that it was attached to the device, and this is an

23     antenna that is only used for devices that operate on a wavelength of 0.7

24     metres.  I couldn't identify the device itself because of the quality of

25     the picture.  All I could recognise was the fact that the antenna

Page 27728

 1     attached to the device operated on specific frequency range.

 2        Q.   All right.  So you weren't ever told that Mr. Borovcanin had

 3     stated previously that he had with him a GP300 radio, you weren't

 4     provided with that information?  And just to be clear, that's on the 13th

 5     of July, 1995.

 6        A.   No.  I had no such information.  I used the GP300 devices what

 7     was available to me at the moment.  That's why I used that device.  I

 8     tried to find devices that were similar to all the other devices that had

 9     similar characteristics to the devices that one could find in the area of

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina and of the former Yugoslavia.

11        Q.   So the devices you tested were based upon assumption of

12     identifying the antenna of something that you observed, right?

13        A.   Yes.  On the basis of identifying the antenna and the shape of

14     the device itself which shows that it's a handheld radio device, and the

15     antenna shows that this device operates on a wavelength of 0.7 metres.

16     That's what I could identify on the basis of the picture.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you 65 ter 3856.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just focus in a little bit where you

19     see the antennas.

20        Q.   Now, do you recognise these -- first of all, do you recognise the

21     devices that Mr. Borovcanin has on him?

22        A.   The picture is completely unclear.  I can't recognise the device.

23     I can see that it's a handheld radio.  All I can recognise is the antenna

24     on the device.  It's very unclear.  But an antenna that operates on a

25     wavelength of 2 metres resembles the antenna I can see in the picture.

Page 27729

 1        Q.   Well, how many antennas can you see in the picture?

 2        A.   Well, I see -- well, there is one that's a little longer.

 3     Another that's somewhat shorter.  I assume I should be able to see two

 4     antennas.

 5        Q.   You should be able to see two antennas or do you see two

 6     antennas?

 7        A.   I can see something that looks like two antennas.  I can't claim

 8     for certain because this is, after all, a photograph.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Let's look -- take a look at 65 ter

10     3857.

11        Q.   Is that image any better for you as to whether or not there is

12     one or two antennas?

13        A.   Once again, the photograph is not very clear but it looks like

14     there are two antennas there.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Let's take a look at 65 ter 3858.

16     If we can move a little bit over to the left.  All right.  Right there is

17     fine.

18        Q.   Do you see did barrel of the gun?  Immediately to the left of the

19     barrel of the gun, that's an antenna, isn't it?

20        A.   It's very unclear.  I can just see the upper part of something

21     that looks like an antenna.

22        Q.   And immediately to the left of that, and right under

23     Mr. Borovcanin's white T-shirt you can see another antenna, can't you?

24        A.   Well, yet again it's unclear.  But I can see the contours of some

25     kind of an antenna.

Page 27730

 1        Q.   And what kind of antenna would that be?

 2        A.   Again, I can't be certain.  The photograph isn't clear, but given

 3     what I can identify, this has the characteristic look of an antenna that

 4     operates on a wavelength of 2 metres.

 5        Q.   And what particularly characterizes an antenna that operates at a

 6     wavelength of 2 metres in your view?

 7        A.   Well, it all depended on the manufacturer, but such antennas

 8     would be about 50 centimetres long -- depended on the adapter.  But they

 9     were usually in a spiral form.  And that spiral is covered by some kind

10     of rub or other kind of material.

11        Q.   All right.  But based on the images that you've seen can you

12     conclude as to what type of antennas you've seen?

13        A.   I can only speculate on the basis of this photograph which isn't

14     clear.  I assume it's an antenna that was used for wavelengths of 2

15     metres.

16        Q.   Okay.  That's fair enough.  Now, it is the case that both antenna

17     and the power of the device influence the operational range of a

18     particular radio device; is that right?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   And based on what you've seen here -- first of all, you haven't

21     seen these actual photos before have you?

22        A.   No.  These are the first times I've seen these photographs.

23        Q.   So you have no idea, as you're sitting here now, exactly what

24     these radios are?

25        A.   I can only guess about the kind of antenna here.

Page 27731

 1        Q.   But it would be only a guess?

 2        A.   I do apologise, but the photograph really is not very clear and I

 3     wouldn't like to make a mistake.  But given the contours of this object

 4     that I can see, it should be the antenna of a device that operates on a

 5     wavelength of 2 metres.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, you are aware that the Ministry of Internal Affairs

 7     also used devices that were mobile radio devices, the type you might find

 8     in a police car?  You're aware of that, right, in 1995?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Okay.  I want to show you a document and maybe you can help us

11     through this.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  But apparently the

14     witness didn't receive a translation of the last two words that appear in

15     the transcript.  So I think that's rather important to clarify now, on

16     page 76, line 9.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  And to which he answered "yes," no?

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  So I will repeat the question myself to you,

20     Mr. Markovic, and then you will repeat your answer:

21             "Okay.  Now you are aware that the Ministry of internal affairs

22     also used device that were mobile radio device, the type you might find

23     in a police car?  You are aware of that, right, in 1995?"

24             And did you answer yes or --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the year 1995.  I

Page 27732

 1     wasn't there in 1995; and therefore, I cannot make such a claim.  All I

 2     can claim is what is based my own experience.  After the conflicts, after

 3     I moved from the Ministry of the Defence to the MUP, as to what happened

 4     in 1995 -- well, I wasn't present, so I can't say what there was in

 5     vehicles at the time.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 7        Q.   Thank you for that, Mr. Markovic.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Could I have 65 ter 3855 in e-court, please.  I

 9     think we don't have an uploaded translation of this document yet, but

10     this appears to be a document that refers to the special police brigade.

11        Q.   It's dated 1995.  It's signed by Goran Saric.  And it identifies

12     a number of devices that are being submitted for repair; is that fair to

13     say?

14        A.   Yes.  Computers and radios as far as I can see.

15        Q.   Okay.  And in respect of the radios that are identified in there,

16     one such radio is the RS GM 300.  Are you familiar with that device?

17        A.   I don't know what RS stands for, but the GM 300, yes, I am

18     familiar with that.

19        Q.   Okay.  And the GM --

20        A.   These are old models of the device, I assume.

21        Q.   The GM 300 is a mobile radio, the type of which you myself might

22     find in a police car, isn't it?

23        A.   I can only tell you about how things stand at present, but as to

24     what the situation was at the time I don't know whether police vehicles

25     had such devices.  They have been -- mistakes have been made in the

Page 27733

 1     document with regards to the names of these devices.  Under 5, Yasu --

 2     well, a certain number of numbers are missing here.  It was probably

 3     spelled in the way that the person who was typing up the document heard

 4     the word.  4, RS Spektra, for example, I know of Spektra devices but you

 5     have various kinds and I assume that the person who typed the document

 6     spelled it as though he should or as she thought she should.  Quite a few

 7     mistakes have been made in what has been listed here.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Can I have 65 ter 3871 in e-court, please.

 9        Q.   I know this is not an idea photograph, but do you recognise the

10     device based upon the picture that you see in front of you?

11        A.   Yes, I can recognise this device.  It's a device that can be

12     fitted in vehicles and while I was working for the UN i had the

13     opportunity of becoming familiar with such devices.

14        Q.   All right.  And is it possible that the term RS that you've seen

15     in the document 3855 a stands for radio Stanica, radio station?

16        A.   The abbreviation can mean various things, including Republika

17     Srpska and radio Stanica, but the abbreviation RS meant -- used to mean

18     radio system at the time when I was in the armed forces.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Could I have 65 ter 3783 in e-court -- 3873,

20     pardon the dyslexia.

21        Q.   Again, this is not an ideal photograph but do you recognise what

22     is depicted there?  I have a hard copy if it would assist you.

23        A.   That isn't necessary.  I recognise the device, but I had no

24     opportunity of working with it.  And here it is correctly spelled, that's

25     why I said that in the document that we saw previously a number of

Page 27734

 1     letters were missing.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And if I could have 65 ter 3874 on e-court.

 3        Q.   Yet even a worse picture.  If I could, I have a hard copy of it

 4     which might help you, if you recognise it.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And for the Court and my colleagues, I will try

 6     to get better images up in e-court hopefully at the time of tenure.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise that radio as the Yaesu 2011.

 8        A.   I've never come across this device, but I can make out the

 9     manufacturer.  The manufacturer is known for this kind of a radio

10     station.

11        Q.   Thank you for that.  And it is the case that these types of

12     devices have a greater output power, that is a radio frequency output

13     power than a portable radio, right?

14        A.   I don't know the exactly specifications of this device, but I

15     know that all devices fitted into vehicles have a greater output power

16     because they have a more stable power supply.

17        Q.   Thank you for that.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And if I could just go to 65 ter 3871, and it

19     should be the second page of that document.  All right.  If we could just

20     blow up the top part where it says, "general."  That's good.

21        Q.   Now, I apologise to you because I don't have a translation of

22     this document, but I do understand that you do speak English, and what I

23     want to refer you to is where you see in the third column -- third row,

24     RF output, and under that you can see it falls under a column that

25     indicates the frequency range of 146 to 174 megahertz.  And if you look

Page 27735

 1     at the first column you will see that it says "model series," and

 2     different models and have corresponding different powers, up to 45 watts

 3     and a frequency range of VHF, right?  And similarly up to 40 watts and a

 4     frequency range of UHF.

 5             Now, I don't have much time left, but what I want to ask you is

 6     it is true that those specific frequency ranges correspond exactly to the

 7     frequency ranges that the Motorola GP300 can be tuned to?

 8        A.   Yes, but only in -- only for VHF.

 9        Q.   Are you sure about that?

10        A.   What I know namely about the frequency range of Motorolas, I can

11     only state the wavelength, and that is 2 metres.  This corresponds to

12     this frequency range.  And so this, including a variation, so a little

13     above 146 and a little below 174.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   I can just add because the GP300 uses a specific antenna, if a

16     UHF frequency -- if you wanted to use a UHF frequency then the device

17     would not be appropriate.  But depending on the manufacturer, there may

18     be various models that function in a different frequency range, but I

19     have no knowledge about that.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Well, if I could have in e-court 65

21     ter 3870.  Thank you.  Now, if we could just go down page where it says

22     "general specifications."

23        Q.   I am going to read to you the frequencies that were on the

24     document that I just showed you concerning the GM 300.  Those frequency

25     are from 146 to 174 megahertz, do you see that?  In the specifications

Page 27736

 1     here, under the VHF?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   438 to 470 megahertz.  Do you see that here under the UHF --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Sorry, I withdraw that.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 8        Q.   Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes, I can see that but these are different models.

10        Q.   403 to 433 megahertz, do you see that frequency range under the

11     UHF heading?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   438 to 470 megahertz under the UHF heading, do you see that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   465 to 495 megahertz under the UHF heading, do you see that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   495 to 520 megahertz, do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Okay.  And just for the record I was reading from 65 ter 3871,

20     the previous exhibit, page 2.

21             All right.  What I would like to show you is a video, and it

22     concerns a radio transmission that was received in a vehicle in which

23     Mr. Borovcanin was present on the 13th of July.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The 65 ter number of the video is 2000, 2000.

25                           [Videotape played]

Page 27737

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 2        Q.   Now, first of all since you've been able to comment on the

 3     quality and the nature of radio communications, tell us how it is that

 4     you rate these particular communications as you've just heard on the

 5     scale that you indicated before?

 6        A.   This would be about 5/4, but I wasn't there, so I only got the

 7     sound through my headset which is amplified --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  For the record, the video-clip we saw

 9     ends at 17 minutes, 18 seconds point 2.  I understand that you asked for

10     about five minutes before the end to address the Chamber --

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That is true.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  So I think we will need to stop here with this

13     witness.

14             Mr. Markovic --

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you have any further questions on this video?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have one other video which I would like to

18     show him --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then leave it until the next time.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  But it's very brief.  It's I think twice this

21     length, and I think that would be a good place to end, if we are able.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Then we do that next time.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If it's possible to do it --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but how much longer will you keep us after

25     that.

Page 27738

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I just want to play the video and then ask one

 2     question and then hopefully we can --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes, because that's what you told us.  All

 4     right.  Go ahead, go ahead.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Okay.  What I would like to play for you now is a slow motion

 7     version of the same video.

 8                           [Videotape played]

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  At this point the video is -- the contrast is

10     changed, and I want to show that to the witness as well.

11                           [Videotape played]

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  At this point video is now going to go in slow

13     motion with the contrast that has been adjusted.

14                           [Videotape played]

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:

16        Q.   What I want to do, sir, is direct your attention to the

17     right-hand side of the screen.  If you look at the right-hand side of the

18     screen you can see a hand, in the hand a transmitting microphone.  Do you

19     see it?

20        A.   With all due respect, I'm not an expert in videos; and I cannot

21     really say whether that is a microphone or not.

22        Q.   All right.  But you are an expert in the field of handling radio

23     communication devices, right?

24        A.   Yes, I can comment on radio devices and their technical

25     specifications, but videos, really, I saw something in one of the corners

Page 27739

 1     but I cannot comment on that.  And the image is blurred and very unclear.

 2        Q.   Would it be consistent with that image depicting a radio

 3     microphone, such as the one depicted on the Yaesu 2011; would it be

 4     consistent with a large antenna mounted on the roof of that vehicles in a

 5     different image?  Would you expect to see a hand held microphone in a

 6     vehicle that possessed a large antenna, typically associated with a

 7     mobile radio?

 8        A.   I must say that, first, I wasn't there.  I went there last year

 9     for the first time in my life.  And what you've asked me, if there was an

10     antenna on the roof of the vehicle, it can be the antenna of a radio

11     device or that of an FM receiver, such as a civilian car radio.

12             And as for the handheld microphone, depending on the device, I

13     can mention one type of device.  You mentioned the MT 1000, that is

14     compatible with a handheld microphone both for mobile stations and

15     mountable stations.  These are the technical characteristics, but what

16     happened at the place where this video was shot I cannot say.  Because I

17     haven't be there, and I cannot see well from this video.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Let me show you 3862 in 65 ter -- 65 ter 3862 --

19     and I'll leave it at that -- 63863, I'm sorry, and I'll leave it at that

20     for now.  Is this 3863 -- 838.  All right.  How about 3862?  It is 3863?

21     Okay.  Thank you, all right.

22        Q.   You see where the silver car is?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you see the antenna mounted on the roof of that car, sir?

25        A.   I can see the outlines of an antenna.

Page 27740

 1        Q.   You can see the outlines of an antenna?

 2        A.   Yes.  I can see it, but I cannot say how long the antenna may be.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, for that.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I appreciate your indulgence.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Have you finished or do you still have questions

 6     for him?

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am very near, but I'm not.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, we'll continue next week.

 9             Mr. Markovic, we have to stop here for today.  You will return on

10     Monday -- on Tuesday, sorry; and we'll take it up from there, but I'm

11     sure we will finish with you on Tuesday.  Thank you.

12             Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, good afternoon.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Very briefly, please.

15             MR. THAYER:  We wanted to address the Chamber on a matter

16     concerning the motion from our friends on the Borovcanin team regarding

17     the -- their objection in request for guidelines concerning the use of

18     statements not in evidence.  There was a subsequent motion on behalf of

19     the Nikolic team --

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

21             MR. THAYER:  -- along some similar but also different lines.

22     What we wanted to do was ask the Court for permission to respond in a

23     consolidated manner based on the deadline that would run from the Nikolic

24     filing --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

Page 27741

 1             MR. THAYER:  -- I had some discussions with my friends from the

 2     Gvero team, and I believe that they are in a position to file a

 3     submission along a -- on the same subject matter.  I don't want to

 4     misquote my friend, but what we are, I think, are asking now is if we can

 5     respond in a consolidated matter to all three upon the filings from the

 6     submissions from our friends on the Gvero team?

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Josse.

 8             MR. JOSSE:  Very briefly, we will file on Monday, Your Honour,

 9     happy to do that.  But what a we didn't really want to do is be

10     disadvantaged in terms of replies or potential replies.  I accept that

11     we'll need leave.  Originally, I was simply going to file on the same day

12     the Prosecution were prepared to file their response, because we do take

13     a slightly different stance to my learned friend's.  I think what we've

14     agreed is that we will file on Monday, that will enable the Prosecution

15     to respond to all three of us; and if we require it we, too, will seek

16     leave to reply in due course.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough, fair enough.  No problem.  No problem.

18     And we'll see about dates later on.

19             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  We stand adjourned until next Tuesday, and I wish

21     to thank the staff for having been patient with us and overstayed by

22     almost 10 minutes.  Thank you.  Yes, Tuesday at 9.00 in the morning.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24                           1.53 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the

25                           4th day of November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.