Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28978

 1                           Friday, 28 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, Madam Registrar and good

 7     morning, everyone.  Could you kindly call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, ma'am.

11             All the accused are present.  Mr. McCloskey alone -- is alone

12     today representing the Prosecution.  Absent amongst the Defence teams is,

13     I see, Ms. Tapuskovic, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Bourgon and

14     Mr. Haynes.

15             Yes.  Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17                           WITNESS: RATKO MILJANOVIC [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:  [Continued]

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We were at 3957, if we could go back to that and

21     give Colonel -- good morning, Colonel.  Good morning, everyone.

22        Q.   Back to that 14 July order that went out in your name, I think

23     you've told us you got that information from General Djukic, but you

24     don't remember where Djukic was when he gave you this information; is

25     that right?

Page 28979

 1        A.   Yeah, Your Honours, it's right.

 2        Q.   And could he have been at, you know, at Han Pijesak or would this

 3     be something that you received over the telephone or radio?

 4        A.   I received this telephone from him via telephone.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And if we look at the back of it, we can see

 6     that it was received by a unit at 2325 hours on the 14th, so

 7     relatively -- well, very late on the 14th.  And so you would have, on the

 8     14th, have had a chance to receive other information from what was going

 9     on in the area of Srebrenica; for example, you would have had received

10     the logistics -- daily logistics report from the Drina Corps; correct?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Daily reports were coming in, but whether I

12     did receive information about this, I don't remember.

13        Q.   So do you remember speaking to anyone, say, you know,

14     Mr. Krsmanovic from the Drina Corps, Radoslav Jankovic intel from the

15     Main Staff, Mr. Kerkez from the Main Staff, any of these people talk to

16     you about what was going on from Potocari that day?

17        A.   Your Honours, the name of Kuzmanovic was mentioned but I don't

18     remember who that was.  And I don't remember a single conversation about

19     the events taking place in Srebrenica that I had with those people

20     mentioned here.

21        Q.   Okay.  Well, you do in paragraph 3, mention that the

22     transportation of this filter and its accompanying equipment shall be

23     carried out on the requisitioned transportation means trailer trucks that

24     was used for the transportation of the civilian population from

25     Srebrenica.  So on the 14th, the day that you wrote this -- or this order

Page 28980

 1     was written, what were those trailer trucks doing?  How did you know that

 2     they were available for transport of this filter the next day on the 15th

 3     as we see the order requires?

 4        A.   This was precisely what was told to me on the phone.  That is the

 5     only information that came from that quarter.

 6        Q.   But surely once you received information from Djukic, you would

 7     have looked into getting those trucks, making sure that they were

 8     available and making sure that the people that this delivered to, the

 9     27th rear base and the command of the Drina Corps were going to carry it

10     out?

11        A.   No, Your Honours, it wasn't like that.

12        Q.   So you just the got this information, drafted the order, sent it

13     to the 27th and the Drina Corps, and did nothing about making sure it

14     happened?  You just forgot about it after that?

15        A.   No, I didn't forget about that, and this didn't take place as you

16     described it.

17        Q.   Well, tell us what you did with this.  Were you involved at all

18     in the drafting of this order?

19        A.   I already said, it was I who drafted this order.

20        Q.   And was it sent to the 27th rear base and the command of the

21     Drina Corps like it says?

22        A.   That is correct.  It was sent to the 27th rear base, and to the

23     command of the Drina Corps.

24        Q.   And what, if anything, did you do to determine if this was going

25     to be carried out?  We all know that's your job?

Page 28981

 1        A.   Your Honours, I didn't do anything in particular, nor was it

 2     necessary for me to do anything.  It was sufficient for me to issue an

 3     order to the 27th rear base to set up a detail as it's written here to

 4     send it to the ground.  After that I expected and I received a report on

 5     the issue.

 6        Q.   And was that a written report?

 7        A.   I believe it was a written report sent by telegraph, but I'm not

 8     sure.

 9        Q.   From who?

10        A.   From Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel, I'm not sure, but his name

11     was Strahinja Jankovic from the 27th rear base.

12        Q.   And what did he tell you?

13        A.   Your Honours, Jankovic reports that he was unable to carry out

14     this order.

15        Q.   And what did you do about that?  Who did you inform?

16        A.   Your Honours, I could hardly wait to pass on this information to

17     General Djukic.

18        Q.   And did you?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   And how long after sending this order out did you receive the

21     report from the rear base person?  How many days, hours, minutes?

22        A.   Your Honours, I cannot tell you exactly.  To the best of my

23     recollection, it might have been after a day or two.

24        Q.   And when you told this to Djukic, was it in person or over the

25     phone?

Page 28982

 1        A.   I told him that in person.  He was at the command post.

 2        Q.   And what did he do about it when you told him that this fellow

 3     Miroslav Deronjic had blocked his order?

 4        A.   Your Honours, this is precisely the reason why I remember this

 5     event.  He said that he could hardly wait to tell this to General Mladic

 6     because that order had been complete foolishness.

 7        Q.   Djukic was going to tell Mladic that Mladic's order was foolish?

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Well, let's look at the order.  What is foolish about the Drina

10     Corps picking up ammunition and weapons that are left over from an army

11     that is not there anymore?  You are in the middle of a war, what is wrong

12     with that?

13        A.   Your Honours, the bad thing about this was that General Djukic

14     somehow knew that there was a conflict between the civilian authorities

15     and the army, and that by carrying out this order, this would exacerbate

16     this conflict; and in that sense, he said I told him this was rubbish.

17        Q.   So what happened?  Was this materiel ever inventoried by the army

18     and taken?

19        A.   I believe, but I'm not sure, but something was done about that

20     later.

21        Q.   What?  What was done?

22        A.   This materiel and equipment left behind was disassembled and

23     stored at the warehouse on the base.

24        Q.   By who?

25        A.   I don't know who exactly did that.  I don't want to make any

Page 28983

 1     assumptions.  I cannot remember.

 2        Q.   Army or civilian authorities?

 3        A.   No, no, the army got possession of that.

 4        Q.   So in the end, the army did get this material?

 5        A.   Yes, I remember, for example, a big tent which was difficult to

 6     disassemble, and there was discussion about that.

 7        Q.   And so you were involved in that -- in that process of

 8     expropriating this material?

 9        A.   If you call it involvement.  The information I have is as such as

10     I just told you.

11        Q.   And was this material from the UN base in Srebrenica as it says

12     in the order or the -- more particularly, the UN base in Potocari?

13        A.   I wasn't personally there.  I remember that there were both there

14     but from which particular base and which equipment was taken, I'm not

15     able to tell you.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Just briefly then, let's go to 65 ter

17     number 3958.

18        Q.   And I'll give you a hard copy of this, and ...  This is a Main

19     Staff order September 26th and your name as the deputy entitled

20     "Expropriation of Material Supplies," and it inventories the stuff from

21     both Srebrenica and Potocari.  Is this what you were talking about

22     basically?

23        A.    Yes, Your Honours, this is what I'm talking about.

24        Q.   Okay.  And just at the end of it, the last page, I just wanted to

25     ask you, we see that it say the initials "RM" and then "/MP."  Can you

Page 28984

 1     tell us what those mean?  And we've heard a lot about what these things

 2     mean, I just wanted to check with you.

 3        A.   Your Honours, these are supposed to be, and they indeed are the

 4     initials of the persons who drafted the document, and typed it.

 5        Q.   Do you know why the Main Staff was so involved in this

 6     expropriation process as opposed to the Drina Corps by itself?

 7        A.   No, Your Honours, I wouldn't be able to tell you why.

 8        Q.   And so RM is Ratko Miljanovic and MP is who on these initials?

 9        A.   I don't know, Your Honours.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to 5D01113.

11        Q.   This is document the Defence showed you that you've talked about

12     a bit already, I think.  And this is another one of your documents, as

13     you've stated and dated 19 July.  Again this one also has to do with war

14     booty and the transport of people.

15             So is it fair to say you knew about the process to transport the

16     Muslim population out of Zepa on the 19th?

17        A.   Yes, I could have known that the transportation was to be carried

18     out and that is what I said yesterday.

19        Q.   Maybe it's a translation issue, but I got that you could have

20     known.  Did you or did you not know that the Muslim population was being

21     transported out or planning to be transported out on the 19th of July?

22        A.   Your Honours, I know, or rather, I knew why the buses were

23     commissioned and what the purpose was going to be.  But whether the

24     transportation did take place, didn't see any of the sort on that day.

25        Q.   Were you aware of the negotiations that had taken place and the

Page 28985

 1     planning for the Muslim population to start getting on the buses and

 2     trucks?

 3        A.   Your Honours, I had no knowledge about any plans.  As to whether

 4     any negotiations were underway, there was some discussion to that effect

 5     between General Djukic and the logistics organs at the command post, yes,

 6     there were discussions to that effect.

 7        Q.   So you knew there was plans for the Muslims to get on the buses

 8     that day?

 9        A.   That is not what I said, Your Honours.

10        Q.   So you didn't know anything about the plans to get the Muslims on

11     the buses that day?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   You didn't keep aware of the situation in Zepa?  It must have

14     been --

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   It must have been amazing logistics issues.  I mean, we see them;

17     you outline the logistics issues in this very document.

18             Okay.  So in paragraph 4, it says:

19             "If need be, Jovanovic shall secure a police unit through the

20     chief of operation and training administration of the Main Staff of the

21     VRS."

22             Now, the chief of the operations and training administration was

23     General Miletic at the time; right.

24        A.   I suppose so.  Maybe he was there accidently, I don't know.  And

25     who actually was there, I cannot tell you.  And I didn't understand the

Page 28986

 1     question from the first part of your question.

 2        Q.   Who was the chief of operations and the training administration

 3     of the Main Staff on the 19th of July 1995 when you sent out this order?

 4        A.   Your Honours, it was probably General Miletic.

 5        Q.   What do you mean "probably"?  You don't really know?

 6        A.   I really don't know.

 7        Q.   Well, who else could it have been?

 8        A.   Your Honour, in that period anyone from the staff could have

 9     stood in for him.

10        Q.   That wasn't my question.  I was just asking you, who was the

11     person.  Who was the chief --

12        A.   I don't know that.  Who on that particular day was the head of

13     the operations and training administration, don't know whether it was

14     Miletic or someone else.

15        Q.   Okay.  Surely before you sent out this order involving the chief

16     of operations and training, you would have communicated with that person

17     so that he would be aware that Jovanovic might need to speak with him to

18     get an MP unit; correct?

19        A.   No, Your Honours.  As far as I'm concerned that was not

20     necessary.  Colonel Jovanovic was given a clear task.  In case of need,

21     and I know what need General Djukic emphasized, he should ask for police

22     security.  Police support.

23        Q.   You were at the Main Staff, you knew better than I, why would a

24     person in Jovanovic's position go to chief of operations to get a MP

25     support?

Page 28987

 1        A.   Your Honours, General Djukic issued the clear order to his

 2     subordinate Colonel Jovanovic as to what he should do.  I'm not going

 3     into why it was he who had to do that.  I really don't know what to say

 4     about that.

 5        Q.   So I take it you are not aware of anyone, yourself or anyone else

 6     having any contact with General Miletic about this order?

 7        A.   Your Honours, I'm certain I had no contact with him concerning

 8     this order.  I can't speak for others.

 9        Q.   So I take it you had no reason to believe General Miletic did not

10     have the authority to get a military police unit if need be?

11        A.   Your Honours, at that point in time when General Djukic told me

12     that, that was sufficient for me to draw up this order.  I didn't need

13     anything else.

14        Q.   That wasn't my question.

15        A.   I didn't understand your question.  Could you please repeat it?

16        Q.   My question was, you had no reason to believe that

17     General Miletic did not have the authority to get an MP unit when you

18     wrote this letter, or this order?

19        A.   Your Honours, the question was put to me in such a way that I

20     really don't understand what you are asking me.  I had no reason to

21     believe.  As I said, I wasn't interested in that at all, nor was it up to

22     me to take an interest in why General Djukic was issuing an order to me.

23     He had to know that.

24        Q.   Sir, this order went out in your name.  The initials for the

25     person that drafted it are yours, the initial of the person that typed it

Page 28988

 1     apparently are yours.  You are responsible for this order, are you not?

 2        A.   Your Honours, as for the drawing up and delivery of this order,

 3     yes, I was responsible.

 4        Q.   In fact, you heard of the Auto Battalion that was a Main Staff

 5     logistics asset; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, the Auto Battalion was a staff unit, as you said, yes.

 7        Q.   And you told the Defence in getting -- in your meeting with them

 8     before coming here that you think the buses that Djukic had told you

 9     about were sent to Srebrenica from the Auto Battalion; correct?

10        A.   Your Honours, I confirm what I said, but they didn't have 50

11     buses, as far as I can recall, so the question is how many buses were

12     sent.

13        Q.   Well, let me just read you what the Defence told us and see if

14     you can agree with it.  We just want to get this right:

15             "The witness remembers the day when VRS entered into Srebrenica

16     and knows that General Djukic ordered that 50 buses were sent to

17     Potocari.  The witness does not know details about that as he was not

18     involved in sending these buses to Srebrenica.  However, the witness

19     thinks that these buses are VRS buses which were sent to Srebrenica from

20     Auto Battalion which was a unit directly subordinated to General Djukic.

21     The witness does not have any knowledge about buses that were mobilised

22     from the civilian structures."

23             Do you agree with what the Defence told us about you, what you

24     told them?

25        A.   If that's what I said, then that's what it was.  But I added that

Page 28989

 1     I didn't know whether all 50 buses were from the Auto Battalion.  There

 2     may have been some buses from other units.  Those are details.  The corps

 3     had buses also.

 4        Q.   Sir, this is serious.  Did you or -- do you or do you not agree

 5     with what the Defence told us, what I just read to you?

 6        A.   I did say what it says here, yes.

 7        Q.   All right.  And did you know someone the first name of Rajke,

 8     R-a-j-k-e?

 9        A.   Rajki or Rajko.  Not Rajke.

10        Q.   Rajko?  Who is Rajko?

11        A.   Rajko could be an organ of the traffic service in the corps.

12     Rajko --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the last name, please.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Miljanovic, could you repeat the last name,

15     please, because the interpreters didn't catch it.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, his name was

17     Rajko Krsmanovic, and he was a traffic organ in the corps or desk

18     officer.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  We've got an intercept that I want to ask

21     you about.  Does the town Milosevici mean anything to you?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   All right.  Well, your order that we just talked about on the

24     19th of July was received by somebody at 1.50 a.m. on the 20th, so it

25     looks like that order went out fairly late on the 19th.

Page 28990

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So let's now go, having that in mind, go to 65

 2     ter 1271D is the English and it's 1271C in the B/C/S.  Let me give you a

 3     typed version of that so you don't have to try to follow the handwriting.

 4        Q.   This was intercepted that same day at 2116 hours, so late in the

 5     day on the 19th, not really fairly close to your order likely.  And if

 6     you could take sometime to look at it.

 7        A.   Your Honours, do I have to read it all?

 8        Q.   Please.  It's not very long.  You'll see, it's a simple

 9     intercept.  I don't think there's anything very controversial in it, as

10     you read.  We've heard about the buses in your previous order and Borike

11     and Sjeversko and the organising of those buses, or 50 vehicles.  We see

12     mention of the 63rd, that's the Auto Battalion out of Zvornik; right?

13        A.   I assume, yes, the 63rd Battalion.

14        Q.   And we know what the 27th logistics base is.

15        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

16        Q.   This is a couple of people, Rajke is what the Muslims heard, and

17     Goran, and Kerkez.  You've already told us about Kerkez that was in

18     logistics.  And they clearly are talking about the organisation of these

19     vehicles, and on the second page of the English, you can see that they

20     start about:

21             "Let it be around 9.30 in the sector of Sjeversko," which we've

22     learned from other witnesses is right here Borike.  And then it goes on

23     and next says, "To Sjeversko, then they will split them in Borike to the

24     left and right.  Borike --"

25        A.   Your Honours, I can't follow what is being read out.  I haven't

Page 28991

 1     found where it is, what you reading out now.  Can you help me find it

 2     please, where is it?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  [Microphone not activated]

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   Well, it's not -- look for the word Koscanica in parentheses, do

 6     you see that?

 7        A.   Sjeversko or Koscanica, is that it?

 8        Q.   It's the bottom of the first page in your draft, the first bottom

 9     of the first page.

10        A.   No, Your Honours.  If that's on page 2, on page 2 in my version,

11     2, 4, 6, 8, it's the 16th line from the top.  Koscanica in parenthesis.

12        Q.   Why don't you hand it back to me sir, and I'll show you.  Or you

13     can read it on the screen, it's right near the bottom.  Third line up

14     from the bottom.

15        A.   Yes, I see that, but in the version I have, it's on page 2 line

16     16, the typed text.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well just follow it along.  If it's easier to go on the

18     computer.

19             And you'll see it says, "To Sjeversko, then they will split them

20     in Borike to the left and right, do you understand."  Then we need to go

21     to page 2 in the B/C/S it says in Borike, X says, "Yes."  Kerkez says,

22     "All right."  X says, "Well, that would be all."  Kerkez says, "Carry out

23     your part like you did last time."  X says, "I'm dealing with it."

24     Kerkez says, "Although I think it will probably be less."  X says, "All

25     right.  They are looking again for 50 to 70 vehicles, do you understand?"

Page 28992

 1     Kerkez says, "All right, all right."  And X says, "So that the transport

 2     could be carried out in one round."

 3             Are you following this?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, Your Honours, now I'm following.

 5        Q.   Then Kerkez says, "In one round."  X says, "Yes, most likely."

 6     Kerkez, "All right."  X, "Yes."  Kerkez, "Deadline is at 14 hours but

 7     we'll tell them it is at 12."  X says, "But where?"  Kerkez says, "Yes."

 8     X says, "What?  At 12 ... At 10 all vehicles should be in Sjeversko."

 9     Kerkez says, "Miljanovic just told me."  X says, "Listen."  Kerkez says,

10     "Yes."  X says, "I've just received the order from General Krstic."

11     Kerkez says, "Yes."  X says, "That's what he is asking for."  And Kerkez

12     says, "That is probably some reserve.

13             Here, Miljanovic told me that the agreement was to start loading

14     at 14 hours."  And then it goes and talks about starting to start loading

15     and arranging it from Rogatica, and I'll stop there for now.

16             It's the Prosecution's position that this is happening at the

17     same time your last order, and that this is people organising the

18     vehicles to take the Muslim population out of Zepa and they want to do it

19     in one round, and that we know you were knowledge somewhat of this just

20     from your previous order.  So does this help you refresh your

21     recollection that you were aware that there had been agreement that the

22     Muslims would start loading at a certain time?

23        A.   Your Honours, I didn't know about any agreement, nor did I know

24     the point in time when the Muslims would board or whether they would

25     board.

Page 28993

 1        Q.   Okay.  And as we go over to the next page, there's some talk and

 2     the Muslims hear it as "Balasevic," must know that, it's fine.  And X

 3     says, "Is Bosic over there?"  And Kerkez says, "He is on duty on 175.

 4     All right 175."

 5             There is -- we have evidence in this case which is 65 ter 3011,

 6     which I don't need to bring up, that on the 19th of July,

 7     Tomislav Basevic, the logistics man from the Drina Corps is the duty

 8     officer, and that 175 in another exhibit is the secure line at the Drina

 9     Corps.  So let me ask you, did you have any contact with Mr. Basevic

10     regarding these vehicles for the transport of Muslims from Zepa?

11        A.   Your Honours, I don't remember any contact with Basa, that is

12     Mr. Basevic.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to another document, 65 ter

14     number 41.  And I'll ...

15        Q.   Now, this is a document, there's a translation error, it

16     shouldn't be General Staff of the army.  It should be Main Staff of the

17     army up at the top.  It's dated 14 July [sic], and it's noted to be

18     urgent.  And it's under the name of General Mladic; and it's to the

19     attention of the command of the Drina Corps, and to the logistics sector

20     of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska.  And a copy to the 1st

21     Zvornik Infantry Brigade for their information, and it says:

22             "This is to approve 5 tons of D-2 diesel fuel for carrying out

23     engineering works in the zone of the responsibility of the Drina Corps.

24     The logistics sector of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska

25     shall deliver the fuel to the standard barracks in Zvornik, to Captain

Page 28994

 1     Milorad Trpic.  Captain Trpic shall be responsible for the accurate

 2     maintenance of records on the number of engine work hours of engineering

 3     machines and account accordingly for consumption of fuel."  Now --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

 5             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Sorry I would just like to make a

 6     correction on page 16 line 9 it's a 14th of September.  Not the 14th of

 7     July.  I would just like to make that correction.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  I suppose you agree to that, Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, that's absolute correct.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, madam.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Now, clearly this is addressed to your sector.  It says that your

13     sector, the Main Staff logistics sector shall deliver this fuel directly

14     to the barracks in Zvornik.  Now, surely General Mladic would have spoken

15     to someone to get the details of this before signing off on an order with

16     such detail.  Do you have knowledge of this, anything about this?

17        A.   Your Honours, I have no knowledge whatsoever about this order,

18     absolutely none.

19        Q.   Is there anything unusual about this order?  For example, is it

20     normal for the -- for Mladic to order fuel directly to a brigade to a

21     security officer?

22        A.   Your Honours, I didn't understand the question.  I don't know

23     where Mladic was issuing the order from.  I'm not going into where Mladic

24     was at the time.

25        Q.   My question had nothing to do with where Mladic was.  You may

Page 28995

 1     recall spending a fair amount of time in direct examination talking about

 2     brigades not going directly to the Main Staff; so I'm just asking you, is

 3     it unusual for the Main Staff to send something directly to the brigade?

 4     If that's what is happening, maybe it's not, and if you don't know,

 5     that's fine.

 6        A.   Your Honours, if I understood the order well, when General Mladic

 7     issues orders, then nothing is unusual.  He also issued orders to

 8     individuals directly wherever he was.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Looking at the top of this order, it's number 03-4.  Do

10     you know what Main Staff branch that is?

11        A.   No, Your Honours, I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

12        Q.   Well, we know, and we know that that is the administration for

13     operations and training that in September 14th General Miletic was the

14     head of.  So this particular order, I take it, would not have been

15     drafted by the logistics sector, it would have been drafted by the

16     operations and training sector that General Miletic was involved in

17     heading?

18        A.   Your Honours, what is the question that you are asking me?  You

19     are just stating an assertion.

20        Q.   I want you to either disagree or agree.  We've been doing that a

21     long time, you should be getting used to it.

22        A.   Your Honours, I cannot agree with you.  Perhaps you know

23     something about that, but I don't, and that's a huge difference.  I have

24     to tell the truth.

25        Q.   So you think it's possible the logistics sector may have drafted

Page 28996

 1     this and not the operations and training sector of Miletic?

 2        A.   No, Your Honours, not in the wildest dreams could this have been

 3     written in the logistics sector and then sent by Mladic.  I don't know

 4     who signed this.

 5        Q.   Why not in the wildest dreams could the logistics sector be

 6     involved in something like this?  Sending fuel sounds radical, what is

 7     the problem with that?

 8        A.   Your Honours, in response to your questions yesterday and the day

 9     before yesterday, I said that I never put my signature under the name of

10     General Djukic.  And I don't know who in the logistics would put their

11     signature under the name of Ratko Mladic.  It is totally incomprehensible

12     to me.

13        Q.   Sir, I'm not talking about putting anybody's signature anywhere.

14     Just asking you why is it so wild to think that the logistics unit was

15     involved in sending this fuel to Zvornik?

16        A.   Well, Your Honour, this is not what I said.  I'm repeating again.

17     No one can send such a telegram from the logistics and put Ratko Mladic's

18     name on it.  Whether someone took part in drafting this situation with

19     the fuel, I said nothing.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  We are not quite sure what the witness said.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  They are not alone in that.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then we want to make sure.  I think I leave it in

23     your hands, Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking you any more about who drafted it; we know

Page 28997

 1     who drafted it.  I'm not asking you about who sent it out; we know who

 2     sent it out.  I'm asking you if the logistics unit was involved in

 3     sending the fuel pursuant to this order?

 4        A.   I understand the question.  I don't know whether the logistics

 5     sector of the Main Staff was involved in the execution of this order.

 6        Q.   Could they have been?

 7        A.   Yes, it was possible.

 8        Q.   And you in your position should have known about it?

 9        A.   No, Your Honours.  I, in my position in the logistics sector of

10     the Main Staff of the VRS, was not obliged to have any knowledge about

11     this transaction.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter number 42.

13        Q.   It's another Main Staff document.  Same date, 14 September 1995.

14     From the logistics centre this time, the technical division with a number

15     that we are familiar with, 10.  And we see in this order it mentions:

16             "Pursuant to the order of the commander of the Main Staff of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska immediately issue the following quantity of fuel

18     to the Drina Corps Command, 5.000 litres."

19             I take it 5 tons equals 5.000 litres?

20        A.   I don't understand the question.  Is 5 tons the same as 5.000

21     litres?

22        Q.   How many litres in a ton?

23        A.   Yes, I agree with you that 5.000 litres equals 5 tons.  I just

24     wanted to make sure whether that was your question.

25        Q.   Okay.  And is this logistics document under the name of

Page 28998

 1     Colonel Zarko Zjubojevic related in your mind to the previous Mladic

 2     order?

 3        A.   Your Honours, this is what this document says, and there's a

 4     number 03/4-241; and he is making reference to the previous one that you

 5     showed me earlier.

 6        Q.   And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure you know nothing

 7     whatsoever about this that went out of the logistics sector, am I right?

 8        A.   I know nothing about this.  This is the first time that I've seen

 9     this and that is the truth.

10        Q.   Sir, it's the -- I put my case to you, is that I don't believe

11     you are telling the truth, but on that note I have no further questions.

12             MR. JOSSE:  He should answer that, in our submission.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, in fact that's why I switched on my

14     microphone.  Do you wish to comment on what Mr. McCloskey has just told

15     you?  Do you wish to answer?  He is alleging that you are --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey has just told you, in your face, that

18     he is not believing you.  In other words, that you haven't been saying

19     the truth, speaking the truth.  What is your answer to that, if you wish

20     to give us an answer?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I would like to

22     take this opportunity and say that this document that's been shown to me

23     and the actions described in them is something that I have heard about

24     and seen for the first time today, and that is my truth.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Ms. Fauveau, is there

Page 28999

 1     redirect?

 2             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 3                           Re-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Maybe we could keep in document on the screen

 5     for the time being.  In this document we see that it stems from the

 6     technical department.  Was the technical department under your authority?

 7        A.   No, Your Honours, it was not under my authority.

 8        Q.   Did you have any reason to know everything, or rather, did you

 9     know what the technical department was doing?

10        A.   Your Honours, I had no reason to interfere with the operation of

11     the technical department or to have knowledge about what they were doing.

12        Q.   When General Djukic was present in 1995 in Han Pijesak when he

13     was holding a position there.  Were you made aware of what General Djukic

14     was doing?

15        A.   Your Honours, I had knowledge about his activities only to the

16     extent that he was prepared to give this information to me.  I'm not a

17     person of inquisitive nature.

18             MS. FAVEAU:  [Interpretation]  [Previous translation

19     continues] ... D361 to the witness, please.  5D361 is the document I'd

20     like to show to the witness, please.

21        Q.   This is a directive which you have talked about twice already.

22             MS. FAVEAU:  [Interpretation]  I need page 7, please, in B/C/S,

23     and 8 in English.

24        Q.   Item 6.6, yesterday when I put the question to you who could have

25     written this paragraph, and you answered by saying General Djukic.  Could

Page 29000

 1     General Djukic have written this paragraph without mentioning it to you?

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  What is the problem, Mr. Krgovic.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.  At the

 4     time when this document was drafted, this witness stood in for

 5     General Djukic, and from his answer we can see that he started standing

 6     in for him since 29 March 1995.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 8     continues] ... is dated the 31st of March.  It doesn't mean that it was

 9     written on the 31st of March --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  There was a lot of noise in the courtroom, the

11     interpreter apologises.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Exactly, I couldn't follow you either, Ms. Fauveau.

13     So I would kindly ask you to repeat then I'll give the floor to

14     Mr. McCloskey, and then we'll decide what to do.  If you could repeat

15     your response to the objection raised by Mr. Krgovic, please.

16             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] This document is a dated the 31st

17     of March, which does not mean that it was not drafted a few days prior to

18     that date.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I never brought that document up.

21     I don't believe my counsels did.  This general idea --

22             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] My colleague did.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- about this witness doesn't know everything

24     that Djukic knows is fine.  I'll stipulate to that, but the going back

25     into documents we bring up issues exactly like the one Mr. Krgovic has

Page 29001

 1     brought out.  Are we going to need out when it was drafted and all that?

 2     I didn't bring it up, why are we getting into this?  The probative value

 3     of this witness on these topics I think is minimal and not worth wasting

 4     time on.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

 6             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Well, my colleague from the Gvero

 7     team has suggested that this document was not written by the logistics

 8     sector or in the logistics sector, so I'm entitled to put the question to

 9     him as part of my redirect, and this was yesterday on page 55.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  But my question is, you are asking him could

11     General Djukic have written this paragraph without mentioning it to you?

12     Isn't it speculative in itself?  What can he answer you?

13             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I don't know.  My colleague put

14     the question to him, and General Djukic did not tell you or issue

15     instructions for to you prepare any proposals in connection with that.

16     My question ties into the question which was put by my colleague.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Miljanovic, if you could answer the question

19     without speculating, then please go ahead.  But if you don't know, just

20     tell us so, and we'll proceed.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would appreciate

22     the question to be repeated to me in order for me to have it clear.

23             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Could General Djukic have written paragraph 6.6 without

25     mentioning it to you?

Page 29002

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honours, he could have done that, or could do that.

 2        Q.   Sir, yesterday my colleague read out General Djukic statement to

 3     you.  In this statement General Djukic said that he, himself,

 4     General Gvero set up Salapura, Maric disagreed with Mladic.  You told us

 5     before that General Djukic was stationed in Han Pijesak.  Where was

 6     Salapura based?  Do you know who he is first of all?

 7        A.   Colonel Salapura was an intelligence officer with the Main Staff

 8     of the VRS, as far as I know.  Maybe somebody else has different

 9     information.

10        Q.   Where was his department based?

11        A.   This administration was based in Crna Rijeka at the main command

12     post.

13        Q.   As far as Maric is concerned, where was he?  M-A-R-I-C.

14        A.   Yes, I am just waiting for the transcript.  Maric was also

15     stationed in Crna Rijeka.

16        Q.   What about Gvero?

17        A.   The same applies to General Gvero, he was in Crna Rijeka.

18     General Mladic was in Crna Rijeka as well.

19        Q.   It was suggested to you that there was no meeting between the

20     commander and his associates.  So General Djukic who was based in

21     Han Pijesak, how could you know that this person in Crna Rijeka disagreed

22     with General Mladic?

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the speakers kindly not overlap for

Page 29003

 1     interpreters.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you answer this question without speculating?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how he knows about

 5     this.

 6             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You also said yesterday that General Djukic's statement was in

 8     line with what you told the investigators of the OTP.  How did you know

 9     that?

10        A.   Your Honours, I agreed with a part of General Djukic's statement

11     read out to me.  I don't have a chance to see the statement in its

12     entirety.  If you are referring to the part that you have just mentioned

13     now, then all I can say is that General Djukic often protested against

14     the orders issues by General Mladic in my presence, and he often

15     expressed dissatisfaction with certain moves and actions; but I didn't

16     want to get involved into that.

17        Q.   All right.  My question was not question precise.

18             How did you know about those people in Crna Rijeka:  Salapura

19     Maric and General Gvero.  How did you know that these people disagreed

20     with General Mladic?

21        A.   I agreed with the opinion of General Djukic.  I didn't want to go

22     into what kind of relationships are there between other generals and this

23     Colonel Salapura that has just been mentioned.  Whether my opinion

24     coincide with the opinion about Maric as a personality, but not for a

25     moment did I presume to know what were the relationships between General

Page 29004

 1     Mladic and General Gvero and General Mladic and Miletic and Salapura.

 2        Q.   You were asked several questions about Zepa.  Do you know whether

 3     General Djukic went to Zepa?

 4        A.   Your Honours, I don't know if General Djukic was in Zepa.

 5             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness

 6     Exhibit number 1402.  I apologise for the fact that this document has not

 7     been translated, and this is an intercept dated 26 of July 1995.  5D1402.

 8     That is the exhibit number.  I apologise.

 9        Q.   We can see at the beginning of this intercept, first of all, the

10     date which is the 26th of July 1995; and then we can see this is a

11     conversation that took place at 13 hours 10.  General Djukic talks to

12     Vukic [as interpreted] Rajko and Ratko and in brackets it says, "The

13     general is probably Mladic."  For the sake of the record since we don't

14     have a translation I shall read the relevant part of this intercept.  If

15     we could show the bottom part.

16             It's in the middle of the page, can you see this after the letter

17     D where it says "Djukic"?

18        A.   Just give me a minute, please.  Djukic, yeah, and before that

19     Ratko or Rajko, is that it?

20        Q.   Yes, it's right there.  And then the conversation continues:

21             "Rajko, tell me please is my boss there?"

22             Answer: "Yes, but he is resting.  You will have to wait for

23     awhile.  If you can wait, I'd like to ask you something you need not talk

24     to him."

25             "Yes."

Page 29005

 1             "You were present when he ordered you for these men of mine, a

 2     group, to go there, he said, but I don't know, he didn't say where they

 3     should report to him."

 4             "Yes, I was present.  He is coming, the general heard you.  He

 5     will be here shortly."

 6             Then we have the conversation between General Djukic and

 7     General Mladic.  General Mladic said, "Djuka, hello.  General Djukic,

 8     "Greetings, boss."  Then it's Mladic, "How are you?"  Djukic's answer,

 9     "Very well, thank you."  Then Mladic, "Is your health good?"

10             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Could we move on to the next page,

11     please.

12        Q.   Djukic said, "All is fine, but these men told me that my group

13     should arrive there only they are not certain to what sector."  And then

14     Mladic said, "Let them come to Boksanica at UNPROFOR checkpoint number

15     2."  And Djukic said, "Okay."  Mladic added, "By Rogatica."  Then Djukic,

16     "Very well."  And then Mladic told him, "You can take a walk as well."

17     Then Djukic said, "I'd love to, but I don't know."  And then he said,

18     "I'm coming."  And a bit later, "By the way, I need something to agree

19     with you."  And then Mladic told him, "Agreed and bring with you the

20     papers that need to be signed."  And Mladic added, "And see with Krbic

21     and Miletic what papers need to be signed."

22             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it's time for

23     the break.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think so too.  So let's have a 25-minute break.

25     Thank you.

Page 29006

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I start, the

 4     Prosecutor informed me during the break that the document I used just

 5     now, 5D1401 [sic], is document P1358C in the e-court system and that

 6     there is an English translation of this document.  I'm sorry I wasted the

 7     Chambers time with this document.

 8        Q.   Witness, you stated that you did not know that General Djukic

 9     went to the Zepa region.  Did you know that on the 26th of July,

10     General Mladic was this at that region, was in the Zepa region?

11        A.   No, I didn't.

12        Q.   Do you know where General Mladic was in August and September

13     1995?

14        A.   I cannot remember, Your Honours.  I do not know.

15        Q.   What was the most critical frontline at the time?

16        A.   As far as I can remember, it was the area around Sarajevo and the

17     most critical situation was in the Krajina.

18        Q.   Do you know whether General Mladic went to the Krajina?

19        A.   I know that General Mladic had been to the Krajina on many

20     occasions, but I cannot confirm that he was there on this particular

21     occasion.

22        Q.   Do you remember where General Djukic was in August 1995?

23        A.   No, Your Honours, I cannot remember that either.

24        Q.   Did you go to the Krajina in August 1995?

25        A.   If we are talking about August 1995, I was in Banja Luka.

Page 29007

 1     Whether I went any further than that, I can't recall.

 2        Q.   When you went in Banja Luka or somewhere else, were you able to

 3     send the documents you were supposed to send?  As a general rule, were

 4     you in a position to send documents when you were away from the logistics

 5     command post from the Main Staff?

 6        A.   Yes, I understand your question.  Wherever I was, I was able to

 7     send any document I wanted to.

 8        Q.   What did you put in the heading of the document?

 9        A.   Your Honours, when I had this need, I put in the heading Main

10     Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, sector for the rear.  The initial

11     numbers, whatever they were, I can't recall now, the date, the contents.

12        Q.   All right.  That's enough.  When did you see General Djukic for

13     the last time before he was arrested?

14        A.   Your Honours, this was sometime between the 1st and the 15th of

15     January 1996.

16        Q.   And at the time, what was his health condition like?

17        A.   Your Honours, General Djukic was ill, but he didn't appear to be

18     ill.

19             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  No further

20     questions, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, madam.  Judge Kwon?  Judge Stole?

22     Mr. Miljanovic, we have come to the end of your testimony.  On behalf of

23     the Trial Chamber, I thank you for coming over to give evidence, and I

24     also wish you a safe journey back home.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

Page 29008

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Documents?  There are nine documents which the

 3     Miletic Defence team wishes to tender.  The list has been circulated.

 4     Mr. McCloskey, do you have any objections to any of these documents?

 5     Yes, madam, sorry?

 6             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Instead of document 5D1401, I seek

 7     the admission of document P1358C.  It's already been translated and it's

 8     exactly the same document as 5D1401.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  That makes things easier.  Thank you,

10     madam.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to clear up the numbers, that was originally

12     5D1402, not 01, but ...

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Otherwise --

14             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] That's right.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Otherwise, you don't have any objections to any of

16     these nine documents?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  One moment, please.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, of course.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No objection.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So they are all admitted.

21             There are no documents from the other Defence teams?

22             MR. JOSSE:  We have got one, Your Honour.  The list has been

23     circulated, it's 6D234.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  It hasn't reached us.

25             MR. JOSSE:  It was the laws that were put to the witness.

Page 29009

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  I see okay.  Do you have any objections.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you, Ms. Fauveau.

 4             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  That is also admitted.  Then we have the

 6     Prosecution list, which has also been circulated.

 7             Any objections, Ms. Fauveau?

 8             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Other Defence teams, any objections?  So all these

10     documents are also all admitted.  And we can proceed with the next

11     witness.

12             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that this

13     witness should be notified of his rights pursuant to rule 90 (b) of the

14     rules.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  90 (e) not (b).  For the record, now, I notice the

16     presence of Mr. Thayer amongst the Prosecution team and of Mr. Haynes for

17     General Pandurevic.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  General Pandurevic, any time you need to leave the

20     courtroom, you only please need to tell us.

21             Good morning, to you, Mr. Masal, and welcome to this Tribunal.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  The Defence team for General Miletic has summoned

25     you as a Defence witness.  Before you start giving evidence, you are

Page 29010

 1     required to make a solemn declaration according to our rules to the

 2     effect that you will be testifying this oath.  The text is being handed

 3     to you now, please read it out allowed, and that will be your solemn

 4     commitment with us.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I solemnly declare that

 6     I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

 8                           WITNESS: DRAGISA MASAL

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are here as a witness to answer all the

11     questions that will be put to you both by the Defence team for

12     General Miletic, and others, including the Prosecution.  I don't know

13     what questions you will be asked.  But there is a possibility that you

14     may be asked questions which if you answer truthfully, as per the solemn

15     declaration that you have just made, if you answer truthfully, that could

16     possibly lead to some kind of investigation and also criminal proceedings

17     against you.  I'm not saying that this will happen.  I'm not saying that

18     there will be such questions.  But I cannot exclude such questions being

19     possibly made to you either.  If such questions are made to you and in

20     your mind you feel that if you answer them you would be incriminating

21     yourself or exposing yourself to criminal proceedings, then you have a

22     right under our rules to ask us, the Judges in this case, to exempt you

23     from answering such questions.  You need to be specific, you need to tell

24     us that you wish not to answer such questions because you consider them

25     incriminatory.

Page 29011

 1             We will then decide whether to grant you such exemption or not

 2     because your right is not absolute.  If we decide to exempt you from

 3     answering such questions, that's fine.  But we could also decide to order

 4     you to answer such questions.  In such a case you have a further right,

 5     and that is that whatever you may have stated in reply to questions which

 6     we order you to answer, cannot be then made use of against you in any

 7     criminal proceedings that may be taken against you.

 8             Is that clear?  Is that a clear explanation of your right, or do

 9     you want me to expand?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you are right clear.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So we can start.  Ms. Fauveau will be

12     asking you some questions.  Thank you.

13                           Examination by Ms. Fauveau:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] General, could you please state your first name

15     and last name?

16        A.   Your Honours, my name is Dragisa Masal.

17        Q.   Could you please tell us briefly about your educational

18     background, what schools you went to and so on?

19        A.   I completed a civilian secondary school, and then the military

20     academy, the command staff academy, and the school of national defence,

21     the last three were all military schools.

22        Q.   What positions did you hold before the beginning of the war in

23     the former Yugoslavia?

24        A.   Before the beginning of the war in the former Yugoslavia, I held

25     the post of commander of an artillery platoon, battery commander,

Page 29012

 1     commander of artillery battalion, of a regiment, then chief of artillery

 2     in a mechanised brigade, and chief of artillery in the corps.

 3        Q.   When did you join the Army of Republika Srpska?

 4        A.   I joined the Army of Republika Srpska as soon as it was formed.

 5     That is from the 12th of May 1992.

 6        Q.   What positions did you hold in the Army of Republika Srpska

 7     between the 12th of May 1992 and the end of 1995?

 8        A.   In the Army of Republika Srpska, I was the commander of an

 9     artillery regiment, the commander of the Visegrad tactical group and the

10     chief of artillery in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what rank you had when you joined the Army of

12     Republika Srpska?

13        A.   I was colonel.

14        Q.   When were you promoted to the rank of general?

15        A.   I was promoted to the rank of general after the war.  To

16     major-general in 1998 and to lieutenant-general in 2001.

17        Q.   Just briefly, can you tell us what positions you held after the

18     war?

19        A.   After the war, I was appointed chief of the sector for

20     organisation, mobilisation, and personnel affairs in the General Staff of

21     the Army of Republika Srpska.

22        Q.   I'd like to turn now to your position of commander of the

23     tactical group of Visegrad.  When did you become commander of the

24     Visegrad tactical group?

25        A.   I became commander of the Visegrad tactical group on the 4th of

Page 29013

 1     February 1993.

 2        Q.   And until when did you hold that position?

 3        A.   I held that position until the 20th of August 1994.

 4        Q.   What was the area of responsibility of the Visegrad tactical

 5     group?

 6        A.   My area of responsibility or rather the area of responsibility of

 7     the Visegrad tactical group corresponded to the territory of five

 8     municipalities in the upper Podrinje area and these were the

 9     municipalities of Rogatica, Visegrad, Rudo, Cajnice, and Gorazde.

10        Q.   When you were a commander of the Visegrad tactical group, who was

11     your immediate superior?

12        A.   My immediate superior was the commander of the Drina Corps,

13     General Zivanovic.

14        Q.   You stated that in 1993 you were the commander of the Visegrad

15     tactical group, were you aware of agreements related to protected areas

16     in Eastern Bosnia?

17        A.   With respect to the agreements related to protected areas, I was

18     not directly familiar with those, but through orders coming from the

19     superior command as the commander of the tactical group, I was fully

20     informed of the establishment of the protected areas of Srebrenica, Zepa,

21     and Gorazde.

22        Q.   Did you receive specific instructions from your higher command

23     related to these protected areas?

24        A.   I received an order on the signing of a ceasefire between the

25     commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, the

Page 29014

 1     commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, that is

 2     General Mladic, and of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina General Halilovic,

 3     and the commander of UNPROFOR.  With respect to the cessation of

 4     hostilities and the declaration or rather the establishment of protected

 5     areas, the protected areas of Srebrenica, Zepa, Gorazde, Tuzla, and

 6     Bihac, these were part of that agreement.

 7             MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show the witness Exhibit

 8     5D1200.  It's an order coming from the Main Staff dated 8th of May 1993,

 9     on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde, and on the

10     cessation of any type of military activity in these areas.  Could we have

11     page 2 in English.  I'm interested in point 4 of the document.

12        Q.   Witness, under this point mention is made of the creation of

13     commissions to monitor the demilitarisation.  Were you aware of the

14     existence of these commissions?

15        A.   Yes, I received this order as the commander of the tactical group

16     in view of the fact that I was duty-bound to designate people from my

17     command, from my unit, to the commissions in the areas of Zepa and

18     Gorazde.

19             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 2 in

20     B/C/S, and page 3 in English.

21        Q.   At point 4 .3 related to Gorazde, we can see indeed that an

22     officer from the Visegrad tactical group is to be appointed; and when it

23     comes to point 4.2 related to Zepa, do you recognise the names of the

24     people who are mentioned as being part of this commission?

25        A.   Yes.  I designated from my unit Luka Dragicevic, who was a

Page 29015

 1     lieutenant-colonel and an interpreter for the English language.  I would

 2     also like to add that I designated from my unit for the commission for

 3     the Zepa area Major Radomir Furtula, who was a member of the commission.

 4     He was then the Chief of Staff of the Rogatica Brigade and also an

 5     interpreter for the English language.

 6        Q.   Just one point of clarification, you mentioned Luka Dragicevic

 7     and the interpreter for the English language when you are talking about

 8     the two persons, you are talking about the Gorazde commission.

 9             Did the Zepa commission actually work, was it effective?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

11             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President I wanted to note for my

12     friend, I think the witness answered her question and it was reflected

13     for a second but then disappeared from the transcript as to whether he

14     was referring to both the interpreter for the English language and

15     another individual.  I thought I heard him say yes, and I think it was

16     actually in the transcript for a minute.  It's not there, I don't know if

17     that's the case or not, but I just wanted to bring that up before we move

18     too further along.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

20             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I think it's would probably be

21     best if I repeated the question.

22        Q.   Witness, for the record, you talked about Luka Dragicevic and an

23     interpreter for the English language.  Were these two individuals member

24     of the Gorazde commission?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29016

 1        Q.   Now, I'd like to talk about the Zepa commission.  Did this

 2     commission actually work?

 3        A.   This commission was established and on several occasions, it

 4     spent time in Zepa with a view to carrying out the tasks it had been

 5     assigned with respect to the demilitarisation of the Zepa protected area.

 6             However, after some 15 days or so of work, that commission ceased

 7     to function because the overall activities in the protected area of Zepa

 8     as regards demilitarisation or the withdrawal of weapons by the Muslim

 9     forces had no results.

10        Q.   What was the situation in relation to the Gorazde commission?

11        A.   The commission for Gorazde was established, but it never actually

12     went to Gorazde.

13        Q.   I would now like to show you item 7 which you have in front of

14     you in B/C/S.  In English this will be on page 4.

15             This is page 3, it's item 7 I'm interested in.  At the top of

16     page 4.  I am sorry, this should be at the bottom of page 3.  We can

17     read:

18             [In English] "Members of the so-called army of BiH once weapons

19     or handed over, are to be treated like any other civilians with freedom

20     of movement provided for all so that they can if they wish leave the said

21     regions or remain there."

22             [Interpretation] At the time you received this order, was the

23     army of the Republika Srpska ready to fulfill what is mentioned at item

24     7?

25        A.   We sincerely believed in this agreement on the cessation of

Page 29017

 1     hostilities, and we felt that it was a good beginning to putting an end

 2     to the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The orders of the superior command

 3     were orders we took seriously, and we complied with them and carried out

 4     all the tasks in order to preserve the ceasefire and make it possible to

 5     achieve the final goal which was the end of the war through peaceful

 6     political means.  And we complied with the orders consistently.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I would now like to show you

 8     Exhibit number 5D1027, which is another order stemming from the staff of

 9     the Main Staff of the Army Republika Srpska dated the 9th of May 1993,

10     and which relates also to the agreement signed on the 8th of May 1993.

11        Q.   At item 1 week see that the ceasefire on the entire territory of

12     the former Bosnia-Herzegovina should come into effect at noon on the 9th

13     of May 1993, but what I'm interested in is item 2 and more specific here,

14     the first two sentences.  We can see that it is said one should not fire

15     back if the enemy opens fire, and one should only respond if the infantry

16     or tanks attack in an organised manner.

17             Can you tell us when you needed to fire back and when you

18     shouldn't fire back?  As far as I'm concerned, I'm not a military person

19     and this is not very clear to me.

20        A.   The order issued by the Main Staff is precise.  Based on this

21     order, all the commands were obliged to inform all members up to the last

22     soldier with the content of this order.  This item stipulates in detail

23     that refraining from responding to enemy artillery fire, and lesser

24     provocations should be done because the combat readiness on the positions

25     of units is such that if artillery fire, if it is a provocation only, the

Page 29018

 1     units can be protected and find cover.  Then it goes on to say that only

 2     in the event of an organised infantry or tank attacks, meaning that all

 3     the units must accept combat if it is a serious attack, in order to

 4     secure the existing positions.  This is the essence of this item in this

 5     order.  As far as this is concerned, all my commands and units strictly

 6     followed this order.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I would now like to show you

 8     Exhibit number 5D1025.  This is an order stemming from the staff of the

 9     Main Staff dated the 11th of May 1993.  We are still talking about the

10     agreements and the demilitarised zones.

11        Q.   Could you read item 3, please, which starts with:  "Demilitarised

12     zone will be controlled by UNPROFOR."

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   At the time, i.e., in May 1993, you at least since you were the

15     commander of the Visegrad tactical group and part of the Army Republika

16     Srpska, did you think that the -- that UNPROFOR would fulfill its tasks?

17             Let me repeat my question.

18             In 1993, the army of the Republika Srpska and you as a commander

19     of the Visegrad tactical group, did you believe that UNPROFOR would

20     fulfill its tasks?

21        A.   Initially we believed that the agreement would be implemented as

22     a whole, that is to say, that implementation of the agreement would

23     begin.  However, after the first visit by the commission to Zepa and

24     particularly due to the fact that the Gorazde commission never went on

25     the ground, or, rather, it was never invited to go to Gorazde, we

Page 29019

 1     realised that the Muslim forces and the Muslim command and UNPROFOR as

 2     well, this agreement was actually a farce in its entirety.

 3             MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation]  I'd now like to show you the last

 4     order.  Exhibit number 5D1026 is the last order in this batch.  I would

 5     like to show you two exhibits, but it's one in the same order.  This is

 6     order dated 14th of May 1993.  02/2-420.

 7        Q.   Could you look at the bottom of this document, of this order.

 8     Who was this order sent out to?

 9        A.   Yes, I've seen it.

10        Q.   Did you receive this order?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12             MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Now, the copy we have in B/C/S is

13     not very legible.  Could we show the witness Exhibit number 1202, which

14     is the same order, and which is a signed version of this same order.

15        Q.   General, can you confirm that this order is an identical order to

16     the one you've seen previously, save for the fact that this one is a

17     signed order?

18        A.   Yes, that's an identical order.  This is an original bearing the

19     signature of the commander of the Main Staff.

20        Q.   What I'm particularly interested in is item 1 of this order,

21     which reads:

22             [In English] "Enable unhindered passage of and protection of

23     consignments, equipment and personnel providing aid intended for the

24     civilian population of the opposing side."

25             [Interpretation] You said that you were in the area of Zepa and

Page 29020

 1     Gorazde.  Did your units abide by this order?

 2        A.   My units in our area of responsibility follow the orders to the

 3     full, i.e., we strictly abided by the Main Staff's order on the cessation

 4     of combat operations and on the respect of the borders of the protected

 5     areas.

 6        Q.   Now, as far as passage of aid is concerned, that was intended for

 7     the civilian population of the opposite side.  What was the situation

 8     like?

 9        A.   There were no problems for the convoys of humanitarian

10     organisations to pass through as well as the evacuation convoys or those

11     delivering any staff to Zepa and other zones.  Their routes were

12     precisely determined and there were also checkpoints where they were

13     inspected.  And we knew exactly along which routes and at what times they

14     would pass.

15        Q.   We shall get back to the issue of the convoys a little bit later.

16     Could you now look at paragraph 2, please, where we discuss

17     misappropriation of some of the aid for military teary purposes.  Why was

18     this order drafted like this?

19        A.   The reason for including this kind of stipulation into this order

20     was probably reports from the ground and intelligence confirming that in

21     certain combat zones and areas, the infrastructure required for the

22     normal day-to-day life of civilians was being abused; and it was actually

23     used as an instrument to exert pressure on the civilian population.

24     Specifically in my area, we did not have under our control any

25     installations that could have impact on the protected area such as the

Page 29021

 1     sources of drinking water, et cetera, or facilities for the production of

 2     certain fuels.  The only problem that existed was the electric grid which

 3     in the whole area was largely damaged and could not have been fixed and

 4     restored in a very short time.

 5        Q.   We have seen the orders given by the army of the Republika Srpska

 6     relating to the agreements on -- pertaining to the demilitarised zones.

 7     Could you tell us what the attitude of the army of the ABiH was vis-a-vis

 8     these agreements?

 9        A.   We sincerely anticipated and expected that the command of the BH

10     Army would take a serious approach to the implementation of this

11     agreement.  However, and precisely because the commission was not

12     accepted and was denied entry to Gorazde, we finally realised that their

13     intention was not to stop the war; but rather their own intention was to

14     bide time and place certain areas step by step under the protection of

15     the UN forces, and to regroup the forces from these areas and dispatch

16     them to other regions to carry out combat operations.  We practically

17     could feel that coming from the so-called protected area of Gorazde.

18             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I'd like to show you a few orders

19     that are dated 1993.  I shall not go into these in detail.  The first one

20     is 5D1264.

21        Q.   This is an order which stems from the tactical group in Visegrad

22     and which is dated 12th of November 1993.

23             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Could we see page 2 in English,

24     please.  Could we show the witness the bottom of page 1, please.

25        Q.   This is an order which bears your name.

Page 29022

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether he can read it.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Kwon.

 3        Q.   Let's look at item 3, please, which addresses TGD.  This is a

 4     sabotage group and terrorism group in Zepa.  I'm not interested in the

 5     details of all of it, but you remember anything about this order and a

 6     situation in which armed groups were leaving Zepa?

 7        A.   Just a minor correction, this should read subversive and

 8     terrorist group.  That's what TGD stands for.  The reason was on several

 9     occasions from the direction of the protected area of Zepa and from

10     Gorazde, these sabotage terrorist groups were infiltrated into my area of

11     responsibility; and their task was to render the roads impassable to

12     hinder or make uncertain and unsafe any movement within the depth of the

13     territory, and to keep our units under constant tension.

14             This order was precisely proceeded by such a terrorist and

15     sabotage action on the Kopito pass on the Rogatica road.  They planted an

16     anti-tank mine in the pot hole on the road.  The mine was hit by a

17     vehicle and the three members of the VRS who were in the car were

18     seriously injured.

19             In addition to these events, we received intelligence and

20     gathered information that such groups are continually being prepared both

21     in Zepa and Srebrenica.  They were given combat tasks, but very often

22     these groups, inverted commas, protected the so-called smuggler's

23     convoys, because smuggling was flourishing between Zepa and Gorazde,

24     particularly cigarettes, alcohol, and other items and food stuffs that

25     were lacking in Zepa.  And Gorazde was to a large extent receiving its

Page 29023

 1     deliveries from Sarajevo, so for those reasons --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 3             MR. THAYER:  I am sorry, Mr. President, I didn't mean to

 4     interrupt the answer.  I thought the witness had completed his answer.  I

 5     just wanted to -- perhaps it will help my learned friend save a little

 6     bit of her time again as we've stated from day one of this trial, the

 7     Prosecution does not dispute that there were excursions and incursions

 8     from the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves by armed groups of Muslim fighters

 9     throughout this period of time.  That is not in dispute in case and never

10     has been.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  So please avoid -- thank

12     you.

13             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I fully agree with what Mr. Thayer

14     has said.  I have no intention to demonstrate that these groups were

15     there, but I would like to talk about the actions and the attitude of the

16     Republika Srpska because the Prosecution when it presented its case

17     mentioned a number of things about Gorazde, which are not contained in

18     the indictment.  This is why I felt it was important, but whatever the

19     case may be, I shall not spend a lot of time on this.

20             And the other thing is I would like to say is that this document,

21     which relates to my cross-examination, are the documents which are the

22     witness's documents which he signed personally as a commander of the

23     Visegrad tactical group; and I believe it's very important to hear -- for

24     the Trial Chamber to hear questions put on this issue.

25        Q.   General, you heard I would like to show you three to four

Page 29024

 1     documents, and we shall address the details a little later.  I would now

 2     like to show you 5D1265.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I apologise.  Before seeing this

 4     document, I would need to see document 5D1029.

 5        Q.   The document that will come up on your screen very shortly, is a

 6     document stemming from the staff of the Main Staff of the 14th of

 7     November 1993.  If you look at the part of this document which starts

 8     with, "On the 11th of November," in B/C/S it discusses the communications

 9     between Visegrad and Rogatica.  It's right in the middle of the page.

10     What I'm interested in is this, is this the situation which you mentioned

11     awhile ago when you were talking about your order which was dated the

12     12th of November?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] If we could now see Exhibit number

15     5D1265.  Once again, could we see the second page in English and the

16     bottom of the page in B/C/S.

17        Q.   Do you see your name on this order?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness

20     paragraph -- in other words, the preamble to this order.  This is on page

21     1 in English.

22        Q.   This is another situation which is very similar to the one you

23     described to us a moment ago.

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25             MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] One last order which is Exhibit

Page 29025

 1     5D1266.

 2        Q.   This again is an order coming from the Visegrad tactical group

 3     dated the 14th of December 1995 [sic].  What I'm interested in is this,

 4     the preamble, and the passage which reads:

 5             [In English] "The Muslim forces are preparing an attack on our

 6     positions from the directions of Zepa and Gorazde, with the aim of

 7     relieving their forces in the Olovo and Teocak sectors."

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just to correct the record, it's

10     1993.  It's a mistake in the English translation as well, the original is

11     obviously 1993.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, I think that's correct.  So let's

13     proceed.

14             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Yes, quite, right, I believe it

15     was my mistake.  I think I said 1995.

16        Q.   What I'm interested in is not so much the fact that the Muslim

17     forces were coming out of Gorazde and Zepa.  But this objective i.e., to

18     help their forces in Olovo be and Teocak.  Could you tell us where Olovo

19     and Teocak is?

20        A.   Olovo is to the southwest of my area of responsibility, that is

21     from Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, in the direction of Tuzla and Sarajevo.  So

22     Sarajevo, Olovo, Kladanj, Tuzla, that's the direction.  Teocak, is an

23     area to the southwest of Bijeljina and Zvornik.  That's the area of

24     Teocak.

25             Evidently, at that time there was intensive fighting going on in

Page 29026

 1     these two areas, and it was precisely for this reason that armed units in

 2     Srebrenica and Zepa were given the tasks of carrying out sabotage

 3     activities in the area around the protected areas in order to relieve the

 4     armed units in these two sectors.

 5        Q.   Save for this objective, did you know in 1993 whether the Muslim

 6     forces in the enclaves, I mean all the enclaves, Zepa, Srebrenica and

 7     Gorazde, do you know whether they had a specific objective?

 8        A.   After the protected areas were established, those of Srebrenica,

 9     Zepa and Gorazde; and after UNPROFOR forces entered Srebrenica and Zepa,

10     whereas the Gorazde enclave was not put into that function, the forces

11     there prepared to take that area of Podrinje, Rudo, Visegrad, and so on,

12     and to completely join up Gorazde and Zepa.  This way, they would gain a

13     compact territory from central Bosnia and via Sarajevo, Gorazde, Visegrad

14     and Zepa, and that would create the conditions in joint action with

15     forces from Tuzla -- from the direction of Tuzla to take all of Podrinje.

16     We received intelligence showing that such an operation was being

17     prepared in May in the direction of Visegrad.

18             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I would now like to show you

19     Exhibit number 5D1169.

20        Q.   This is an order stemming from the Main Staff of the army dated

21     the 22nd of May 1993.  You have just talked about information received by

22     the intelligence services.  Do you think this order has anything to do

23     with that information?

24             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I'm sorry, can the witness be

25     shown item 3, please.  This is right at the bottom in English.  This

Page 29027

 1     would be on page 2, the second part of paragraph 3.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I reply?  Before this order

 3     arrived, I carried out a detailed analysis of the situation in the area

 4     of responsibility of my tactical group, and after the protected areas

 5     were established.  After this detailed analysis, I submitted this

 6     information to the superior command along with certain proposals as to

 7     what should be done in order to put the situation completely under

 8     control, and to stabilize the situation especially with respect to

 9     Gorazde.  One of the bases for the taking of specific measures was my

10     report on the concrete situation on the ground.

11             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation]  I would just like to clarify one

12     point.  Could the witness be shown the date of this order, please.

13        Q.   Here we are talking about the 22nd of May 1993.  I don't think it

14     is disputed that Zepa and -- Srebrenica and Zepa were already safe areas.

15     Could you tell us what the situation was like in Gorazde?

16        A.   I have already said that.  The Muslim forces in Gorazde took

17     advantage of the signing of the agreement on protected areas in order to

18     prepare for offensive combat activities.  It is my personal opinion that

19     it was not in their interest for Gorazde to be given full protected area

20     status where UNPROFOR forces would come in.  It was sufficient for them

21     to have five or six UN observers who would monitor the situation and

22     report on any activity by Serb forces around Gorazde, whereas their own

23     activities, they either could not or did not want to monitor.

24        Q.   Just to be quite sure.  At the time, was UNPROFOR and the forces

25     of UNPROFOR, were they in Gorazde at the time this order was issued?

Page 29028

 1        A.   Only monitors.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

 3     page 2 in B/C/S.  This will be on page 3 in the English at the bottom of

 4     the page.  In B/C/S and in English this is at the bottom of the page.

 5     Can you see the bottom of the page, could the witness be shown the bottom

 6     of the page, please.  There it is.

 7        Q.   The paragraph which begins with, "In the second stage."  In this

 8     paragraph, we see that what has been requested are the conditions, the

 9     prerequisite conditions to be able to disarm the Muslim forces and make

10     sure the civilian population can leave for central Bosnia or stay in town

11     if it recognizes the Serb authority.  What was the overall policy of the

12     army of the Republika Srpska when it entered a town in which the Muslims

13     lived?

14        A.   What I am aware of, and I do know this, is that in all orders and

15     especially in preparing combat activities, emphasis was always laid on

16     taking into account possible casualties among the civilian population,

17     and to reduce such casualties to a minimum, especially in built-up areas,

18     or to avoid them, if at all possible.

19             It's evident from this order that in every territory which was

20     being liberated, the Muslim population was given the option of staying.

21     But if they decided to leave and move to territories under the control of

22     their army, they could do so.

23             In my own experience, I never found any civilians in any of the

24     territories we liberated.  Evidently, even before intensive fighting

25     began, the civilian population was moved out of the area where the

Page 29029

 1     fighting would take place.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Madam Fauveau Ivanovic.  Could you could help me

 3     finding the passage in English.

 4             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I think there is a mistake in

 5     English:  "In the first stage" and then the part I was interested in

 6     where the last three sentences, "... creating conditions to disarm the

 7     Muslim formations and enable the civilian population to move out of

 8     central Bosnia..."

 9             This is on page 3, the last three lines, but I believe that must

10     be a mistake in the translation.  I don't mean these three lines but

11     prior to that.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I asked this question because I couldn't find,

13     "In the second stage" at all.

14             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Yes, I realised that when I was

15     asking the question, Your Honour.

16        Q.   You stated, General, that you never encountered a situation where

17     the Army of Republika Srpska would have found any Muslim population on

18     the territory where they arrived, but are you aware of cases where the

19     Muslim population remained on a territory now in control of the Army of

20     Republika Srpska?  Not now but during the war, a territory that during

21     the war was under the control of the army of the Republika Srpska?

22        A.   In my area from the very beginning of the war until nearly the

23     end of the war there were four villages which were purely Muslim,

24     according to their ethnicity, this was between Visegrad and Rogatica.

25     They belonged to Rogatica municipality and these villages were

Page 29030

 1     Satorovici, Osovo, Okruglo, and Burati.  That population remained living

 2     on territory controlled by the army of Republika Srpska and under the

 3     Serbian civilian authorities.  A large influence was exerted on them to

 4     remain by a retired general of the former JNA, Asim Hodzic, who was

 5     advanced in years; but when combat began in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he was

 6     living in the village of Satorovici.  As he was in poor health, I had

 7     occasion to meet him personally when he was being transported from

 8     Rogatica via Visegrad and Uzice to Belgrade at the military medical

 9     [Realtime transcript read in error, "military academy."] academy.  The

10     population in these villages remained peaceful, and they lived there

11     until the second half of 1994 peacefully.  Then they moved away probably

12     in the direction of Sarajevo or somewhere in central Bosnia.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President if we could have spellings for those

15     villages for the record since they came out kind of fast.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay thank you.  Who is going do that?

17             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Yes, I was about to come back to

18     that particular issue.

19        Q.   Witness, would you please repeat very slowly the names of these

20     villages?

21        A.   Yes.  These were the villages of Satorovici, S-A-T-O-R-O-V-I-C-I;

22     Okruglo, O-K-R-U-G-L-O; Osovo, O-S-O-V-O; and Burati, B-U-R-A-T-I.

23        Q.   Just one more clarification, please, Asim Hodzic this retired

24     general, what was his nationality?

25        A.   Asim Hodzic, he was a Muslim by nationality.

Page 29031

 1        Q.   I believe that we need to correct the transcript here again.

 2     Page 52 line 5, you mention the fact that he was translated to Belgrade

 3     from Rogatica via Visegrad and Uzice.  Could you tell us where he went to

 4     Belgrade, to what institution he was taken?

 5        A.   He went to the military medical academy to undergo medical

 6     treatment there.

 7        Q.   You mentioned this civilian population that remained for the

 8     major part of the war in territories controlled by the Army of Republika

 9     Srpska.  Did this population have any problem where it was?

10        A.   Occasionally they suffer the provocations from individuals or

11     small groups who disturbed those people and exerted verbal pressure on

12     them to get them to move away from the territory and from their villages.

13     I know that the commander of the first Rogatica Brigade intervened with

14     the civilian authorities more than once to have the civilian police

15     patrol those villages more often and protect those people from possible

16     individual provocations.

17             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit

18     5D1030.

19        Q.   I believe that the document speaks for itself, but I'd like to

20     clarify one thing.  Did you know Major Rajko Kusic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   In March 1994, when this document was drafted, who was his

23     immediate superior, do you know that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Could you once again tell us who his immediate superior was

Page 29032

 1     because the answer we got in English was, "Yes," but I believe that you

 2     intended to say something else?

 3        A.   His immediate superior was Colonel Dragisa Masal.

 4        Q.   Just before the break, I'd like to deal with civilian population

 5     again.  Throughout your career in the army of Republika Srpska were you

 6     ever faced with situations in which the ABiH used its own population for

 7     military purposes?

 8        A.   Yes.  I did acquire such information, especially when I was

 9     commanding the Visegrad tactical group in the Gorazde area.  The civilian

10     population was used in large numbers in the rear and to help the

11     frontline, primarily to carry ammunition to the combat line to fortify

12     defence positions, dig trenches, shelters and so on.

13             We learned this from several Serb civilians who remained in

14     Gorazde until 1994.  Not only were these Serbs who remained in Gorazde

15     used for these purposes, but the Muslim population was also used for that

16     in large numbers.

17        Q.   With respect to these Serb civilians remained in Gorazde until

18     1994, do you know whether they remained in Gorazde of their own free

19     will, or whether they were forced to remain there?

20        A.   As far as I know, there were two villages in Gorazde which were

21     Serb villages in the western part of the area around Gorazde in the part

22     of Sarajevo towards Grebak, Igman, and Sarajevo.  I think that one of

23     these villages was called Bukovica or something like that.  And based on

24     the facts we obtained from the Serbs who had fled from Gorazde and from

25     the survivors who left in 19.94 they were completely cut off and were

Page 29033

 1     unable to leave their villages.  They were very far from other Serb

 2     territories and Serb villages.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe it's time

 4     for the break.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We'll have a 25-minute break now.  Thank

 6     you.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau, any time you wish to stop, just let us

10     know, please.  Thank you.

11             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12             Could the witness be shown Exhibit 5D1000.

13        Q.   Before the break we were talking about the use of the civilian

14     population for military purposes.  Here we have a document dating back to

15     the period prior to you joining the Visegrad tactical group.  Could you

16     have a quick look at this document and tell us whether what was described

17     in this document corresponds to what you yourself saw or were aware of.

18        A.   Yes, completely.

19        Q.   General, in this trial we've reviewed a number of directives.

20     I'd like to show you Directive number 5.  That's Exhibit 5D1201.  This is

21     dated 25th of June 1993.

22             First of all, at the time were you aware of this document?

23        A.   I did not have an opportunity to see this directive, but I did

24     receive an order from my superior command relating to this directive.

25             MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 4 in

Page 29034

 1     B/C/S, and page 7 in English.

 2        Q.   What I'm interested in is the task assigned to the Drina Corps:

 3             [In English] "Hold remaining [indiscernible] and Gorazde, Zepa

 4     and Srebrenica completely under siege and [indiscernible]."

 5             [Interpretation] I believe there is an error in the English

 6     translation because in the original version in B/C/S mention is made of a

 7     constant siege.

 8             Could you please explain why it was necessary to keep Muslim

 9     forces under constant siege?

10        A.   Based on what is contained in this directive and knowing, or,

11     rather, remembering the task that I had been assigned was that owing to

12     their ongoing activities and particularly offensive attacks coming from

13     the direction of Gorazde, all the units were requested, or, rather,

14     ordered to keep these forces under constant blockade with a view to

15     preventing their incursions into the rear part of our territory, and with

16     a view to establishing control between the protected areas or enclaves.

17             In early 1993, or, rather, in April and May 1993, all the three

18     enclaves were fully physical separated.  However, the activities taking

19     place there, and particularly the activities of large or small terrorist

20     and sabotage groups, and some extensive offensive actions as well, they

21     attempted to keep the communication between the enclaves under their

22     permanent control, which is to enable their movement and coordinated

23     actions between the enclaves.

24        Q.   I'd like to move on to another topic now.

25             You've already mentioned UNPROFOR and convoys.  Do you remember

Page 29035

 1     whether UNPROFOR convoys and convoys from humanitarian associations were

 2     controlled, were checked in 1993 when you were the commander of the

 3     Visegrad tactical group.

 4        A.   Convoys headed towards Zepa and Gorazde passed through my zone.

 5     The order of my superior command based on the order of the Main Staff,

 6     which I very often received directly, it was very precisely stipulated in

 7     what way and at which point the movement and the cargo of the convoys

 8     would be checked.  And I'm referring to convoys entering the protected

 9     zones.  This order set down precisely who is to carry out the inspection,

10     what kind of teams are going to inspect them, and their composition, how

11     the teams should be trained to do that, what kind of inspection they are

12     going to apply to each convoy depending on whether it was an UNHCR convoy

13     or some other humanitarian organisations convoy.  And finally, least but

14     not least, how UNPROFOR convoys were to be inspected.

15             All the commands were informed about the contents of this order

16     and detailed preparations were made of teams who were to be directly

17     involved in the inspection of these convoys.

18             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I'd like to show you Exhibit

19     5D768.

20        Q.   This is an order related to the movement of UNPROFOR and UNHCR

21     convoys related to humanitarian aid convoys in Republika Srpska.  This is

22     an order from the Main Staff dated 2nd of April 1993.

23             We can see that this order was sent directly to the Visegrad

24     tactical group.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29036

 1             MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 2 of

 2     this order.  Page 2 in English as well, please.

 3        Q.   Earlier on you talked about various types of inspections for

 4     UNPROFOR convoys and humanitarian aid organisations convoys.  At items

 5     5(a) and 5(b), do we have the definition or the description of how

 6     inspections should be conducted depending on which convoys we are talking

 7     about?

 8        A.   Items 5(a) and 5(b) clearly described, and in detail, how

 9     inspections of both are going to be carried out logistically of

10     humanitarian aid convoys and logistically for UNPROFOR convoys.  What was

11     in practice undertaken by my command was that pursuant to this order, we

12     prepared some pocket-size manuals for each member of the team

13     participating in the inspection of the convoys, just to remind them on

14     the spot not to deviate from this order.

15             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Could we now turn to page 3,

16     please.

17        Q.   General, please look at item 9.  This is related to the

18     prohibition of the transport of certain types of materials, equipment,

19     radio and video equipment.  Could you explain why video equipment was

20     prohibited?

21        A.   Radio devices and video equipment were prohibited from bringing

22     in with the exception of the radio devices attached to UNPROFOR vehicles.

23     This kind of equipment was under ban and prohibited from bringing them

24     into the protected area because those were technical means that were

25     probably intended for the enemy side and their troops.

Page 29037

 1             As for electronic and radio devices, that was the case.  However,

 2     video cameras were most strictly forbidden because no serious command

 3     will allow its units, troop, positions, defence positions and

 4     infrastructure, weapons or any other details to be filmed in the area

 5     where they are carrying out their combat operations.  The reason being

 6     that all these footage could have been abused during combat and also

 7     after combat operations have ceased.

 8        Q.   Before item 6, at the very top of the page in English we see that

 9     it was necessary to record the quantities of fuel, and if we go back to

10     the previous page, we'll see that we are dealing here with humanitarian

11     aid convoys.

12             Was there a specific reason for this to record the quantities of

13     fuel?

14        A.   Yes, there was a reason for that.  The humanitarian aid convoys

15     very often carried a larger quantity of fuel than was actually needed for

16     their vehicles.  This fuel was then sold both to the army and civilians,

17     but primarily to the Muslim army in Zepa and Gorazde, and probably in

18     Srebrenica as well, but I'm now talking about Zepa and Gorazde because I

19     know these details relating to these two towns.

20        Q.   We saw that this order was dated 2nd of April before the

21     establishment of protected areas, but after that, once the protected

22     areas had been established did you receive further orders related to the

23     passage of convoys?

24             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D804,

25     please.

Page 29038

 1        Q.   We have an order dated 10 December 1993.  I'd like you to turn to

 2     item 3.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   On the checkpoints that you had in your area of responsibility,

 5     did you comply with that order?

 6        A.   As much as was possible, and it is true that these inspection

 7     teams who also monitored the movement of UNPROFOR were made up of the

 8     best officers of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   Please have a look at item 4 now.  That's on the next page in the

10     English version of the document.  I'm interested in what we see at the

11     very end where it says that the content of checks are defined by two

12     orders from August 1993?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When a convoy arrived at a checkpoint, would the officers who

15     were there at the checkpoint, would they know exactly how they were about

16     to proceed with this convoy?

17        A.   All members of the inspection teams were thoroughly trained

18     beforehand to carry out the task in general, and for each convoy they

19     would receive specific orders as well from the Main Staff and the

20     superior command, the command of the Drina Corps.  We regularly received

21     a 24-hour advance notice of the arrival of the convoys specifying the

22     exact time of their entering the area of responsibility of a specific

23     command or unit, and what is the composition of that convoy.  In that

24     way, we were able to prepare ourselves way ahead.

25             MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I had like to show you Exhibit

Page 29039

 1     5D805.

 2        Q.   This is information coming from the Main Staff related to the

 3     passage of convoys.  This document bears the same date as the previous

 4     one.

 5        A.   This is precisely a notice that each unit through whose zone the

 6     convoy was supposed to pass would receive.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Could we have page 3 in English,

 8     and page 2, the bottom of page 2 in B/C/S, please.

 9        Q.   If you look at this very last sentence, "Carry out a detailed

10     check..." and so on and so forth.  Would the orders mentioned earlier,

11     the orders dating back to August 1993, would these orders apply to this

12     convoy?

13        A.   Yes, both are to this specific convoy and to any other convoy

14     about which there was suspicion of its carrying something that was not

15     contained in the declaration or the announcement of the movement.

16        Q.   If you now turn to the paragraph that is just before this last

17     sentence.  The paragraph that comes just before this last sentence, the

18     bottom of page 2 in English.  I believe that you've already mentioned

19     this, but have you encountered similar situations?

20        A.   Several times during checks of humanitarian aid convoys, we

21     encountered a situation that in the original package of the declared

22     goods, some other items were packed.  There were instances in which

23     cameras and still cameras were hidden, and once or twice the original

24     packaging containing food we also found some ammunition.

25             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm very sorry, could

Page 29040

 1     we stop now, please.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Certainly.  Mr. Masal, we have to stop today here

 3     and we will continue on Monday.  Before you leave this courtroom,

 4     however, I need to advise you that one of our rules that you need to

 5     observe in the strictest manner is that between now and when you resume

 6     your testimony on Monday, you do not communicate with anyone on the

 7     subject matter of your testimony.  When I say you must not communicate

 8     with anyone, it means either you or if anyone tries to contact you and

 9     communicate with you on this subject matter.  Have I made myself

10     understood?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, completely.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So we stand adjourned until Monday,

13     9.00 in the morning.  Thank you.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.23 p.m.

15                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st of December

16                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.