1 Friday, 28 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam Registrar and good
7 morning, everyone. Could you kindly call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am.
11 All the accused are present. Mr. McCloskey alone -- is alone
12 today representing the Prosecution. Absent amongst the Defence teams is,
13 I see, Ms. Tapuskovic, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Bourgon and
14 Mr. Haynes.
15 Yes. Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 WITNESS: RATKO MILJANOVIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: We were at 3957, if we could go back to that and
21 give Colonel -- good morning, Colonel. Good morning, everyone.
22 Q. Back to that 14 July order that went out in your name, I think
23 you've told us you got that information from General Djukic, but you
24 don't remember where Djukic was when he gave you this information; is
25 that right?
1 A. Yeah, Your Honours, it's right.
2 Q. And could he have been at, you know, at Han Pijesak or would this
3 be something that you received over the telephone or radio?
4 A. I received this telephone from him via telephone.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. And if we look at the back of it, we can see
6 that it was received by a unit at 2325 hours on the 14th, so
7 relatively -- well, very late on the 14th. And so you would have, on the
8 14th, have had a chance to receive other information from what was going
9 on in the area of Srebrenica; for example, you would have had received
10 the logistics -- daily logistics report from the Drina Corps; correct?
11 A. Yes, Your Honours. Daily reports were coming in, but whether I
12 did receive information about this, I don't remember.
13 Q. So do you remember speaking to anyone, say, you know,
14 Mr. Krsmanovic from the Drina Corps, Radoslav Jankovic intel from the
15 Main Staff, Mr. Kerkez from the Main Staff, any of these people talk to
16 you about what was going on from Potocari that day?
17 A. Your Honours, the name of Kuzmanovic was mentioned but I don't
18 remember who that was. And I don't remember a single conversation about
19 the events taking place in Srebrenica that I had with those people
20 mentioned here.
21 Q. Okay. Well, you do in paragraph 3, mention that the
22 transportation of this filter and its accompanying equipment shall be
23 carried out on the requisitioned transportation means trailer trucks that
24 was used for the transportation of the civilian population from
25 Srebrenica. So on the 14th, the day that you wrote this -- or this order
1 was written, what were those trailer trucks doing? How did you know that
2 they were available for transport of this filter the next day on the 15th
3 as we see the order requires?
4 A. This was precisely what was told to me on the phone. That is the
5 only information that came from that quarter.
6 Q. But surely once you received information from Djukic, you would
7 have looked into getting those trucks, making sure that they were
8 available and making sure that the people that this delivered to, the
9 27th rear base and the command of the Drina Corps were going to carry it
11 A. No, Your Honours, it wasn't like that.
12 Q. So you just the got this information, drafted the order, sent it
13 to the 27th and the Drina Corps, and did nothing about making sure it
14 happened? You just forgot about it after that?
15 A. No, I didn't forget about that, and this didn't take place as you
16 described it.
17 Q. Well, tell us what you did with this. Were you involved at all
18 in the drafting of this order?
19 A. I already said, it was I who drafted this order.
20 Q. And was it sent to the 27th rear base and the command of the
21 Drina Corps like it says?
22 A. That is correct. It was sent to the 27th rear base, and to the
23 command of the Drina Corps.
24 Q. And what, if anything, did you do to determine if this was going
25 to be carried out? We all know that's your job?
1 A. Your Honours, I didn't do anything in particular, nor was it
2 necessary for me to do anything. It was sufficient for me to issue an
3 order to the 27th rear base to set up a detail as it's written here to
4 send it to the ground. After that I expected and I received a report on
5 the issue.
6 Q. And was that a written report?
7 A. I believe it was a written report sent by telegraph, but I'm not
9 Q. From who?
10 A. From Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel, I'm not sure, but his name
11 was Strahinja Jankovic from the 27th rear base.
12 Q. And what did he tell you?
13 A. Your Honours, Jankovic reports that he was unable to carry out
14 this order.
15 Q. And what did you do about that? Who did you inform?
16 A. Your Honours, I could hardly wait to pass on this information to
17 General Djukic.
18 Q. And did you?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And how long after sending this order out did you receive the
21 report from the rear base person? How many days, hours, minutes?
22 A. Your Honours, I cannot tell you exactly. To the best of my
23 recollection, it might have been after a day or two.
24 Q. And when you told this to Djukic, was it in person or over the
1 A. I told him that in person. He was at the command post.
2 Q. And what did he do about it when you told him that this fellow
3 Miroslav Deronjic had blocked his order?
4 A. Your Honours, this is precisely the reason why I remember this
5 event. He said that he could hardly wait to tell this to General Mladic
6 because that order had been complete foolishness.
7 Q. Djukic was going to tell Mladic that Mladic's order was foolish?
8 A. Yes, Your Honours.
9 Q. Well, let's look at the order. What is foolish about the Drina
10 Corps picking up ammunition and weapons that are left over from an army
11 that is not there anymore? You are in the middle of a war, what is wrong
12 with that?
13 A. Your Honours, the bad thing about this was that General Djukic
14 somehow knew that there was a conflict between the civilian authorities
15 and the army, and that by carrying out this order, this would exacerbate
16 this conflict; and in that sense, he said I told him this was rubbish.
17 Q. So what happened? Was this materiel ever inventoried by the army
18 and taken?
19 A. I believe, but I'm not sure, but something was done about that
21 Q. What? What was done?
22 A. This materiel and equipment left behind was disassembled and
23 stored at the warehouse on the base.
24 Q. By who?
25 A. I don't know who exactly did that. I don't want to make any
1 assumptions. I cannot remember.
2 Q. Army or civilian authorities?
3 A. No, no, the army got possession of that.
4 Q. So in the end, the army did get this material?
5 A. Yes, I remember, for example, a big tent which was difficult to
6 disassemble, and there was discussion about that.
7 Q. And so you were involved in that -- in that process of
8 expropriating this material?
9 A. If you call it involvement. The information I have is as such as
10 I just told you.
11 Q. And was this material from the UN base in Srebrenica as it says
12 in the order or the -- more particularly, the UN base in Potocari?
13 A. I wasn't personally there. I remember that there were both there
14 but from which particular base and which equipment was taken, I'm not
15 able to tell you.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Just briefly then, let's go to 65 ter
17 number 3958.
18 Q. And I'll give you a hard copy of this, and ... This is a Main
19 Staff order September 26th and your name as the deputy entitled
20 "Expropriation of Material Supplies," and it inventories the stuff from
21 both Srebrenica and Potocari. Is this what you were talking about
23 A. Yes, Your Honours, this is what I'm talking about.
24 Q. Okay. And just at the end of it, the last page, I just wanted to
25 ask you, we see that it say the initials "RM" and then "/MP." Can you
1 tell us what those mean? And we've heard a lot about what these things
2 mean, I just wanted to check with you.
3 A. Your Honours, these are supposed to be, and they indeed are the
4 initials of the persons who drafted the document, and typed it.
5 Q. Do you know why the Main Staff was so involved in this
6 expropriation process as opposed to the Drina Corps by itself?
7 A. No, Your Honours, I wouldn't be able to tell you why.
8 Q. And so RM is Ratko Miljanovic and MP is who on these initials?
9 A. I don't know, Your Honours.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's go to 5D01113.
11 Q. This is document the Defence showed you that you've talked about
12 a bit already, I think. And this is another one of your documents, as
13 you've stated and dated 19 July. Again this one also has to do with war
14 booty and the transport of people.
15 So is it fair to say you knew about the process to transport the
16 Muslim population out of Zepa on the 19th?
17 A. Yes, I could have known that the transportation was to be carried
18 out and that is what I said yesterday.
19 Q. Maybe it's a translation issue, but I got that you could have
20 known. Did you or did you not know that the Muslim population was being
21 transported out or planning to be transported out on the 19th of July?
22 A. Your Honours, I know, or rather, I knew why the buses were
23 commissioned and what the purpose was going to be. But whether the
24 transportation did take place, didn't see any of the sort on that day.
25 Q. Were you aware of the negotiations that had taken place and the
1 planning for the Muslim population to start getting on the buses and
3 A. Your Honours, I had no knowledge about any plans. As to whether
4 any negotiations were underway, there was some discussion to that effect
5 between General Djukic and the logistics organs at the command post, yes,
6 there were discussions to that effect.
7 Q. So you knew there was plans for the Muslims to get on the buses
8 that day?
9 A. That is not what I said, Your Honours.
10 Q. So you didn't know anything about the plans to get the Muslims on
11 the buses that day?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You didn't keep aware of the situation in Zepa? It must have
14 been --
15 A. No.
16 Q. It must have been amazing logistics issues. I mean, we see them;
17 you outline the logistics issues in this very document.
18 Okay. So in paragraph 4, it says:
19 "If need be, Jovanovic shall secure a police unit through the
20 chief of operation and training administration of the Main Staff of the
22 Now, the chief of the operations and training administration was
23 General Miletic at the time; right.
24 A. I suppose so. Maybe he was there accidently, I don't know. And
25 who actually was there, I cannot tell you. And I didn't understand the
1 question from the first part of your question.
2 Q. Who was the chief of operations and the training administration
3 of the Main Staff on the 19th of July 1995 when you sent out this order?
4 A. Your Honours, it was probably General Miletic.
5 Q. What do you mean "probably"? You don't really know?
6 A. I really don't know.
7 Q. Well, who else could it have been?
8 A. Your Honour, in that period anyone from the staff could have
9 stood in for him.
10 Q. That wasn't my question. I was just asking you, who was the
11 person. Who was the chief --
12 A. I don't know that. Who on that particular day was the head of
13 the operations and training administration, don't know whether it was
14 Miletic or someone else.
15 Q. Okay. Surely before you sent out this order involving the chief
16 of operations and training, you would have communicated with that person
17 so that he would be aware that Jovanovic might need to speak with him to
18 get an MP unit; correct?
19 A. No, Your Honours. As far as I'm concerned that was not
20 necessary. Colonel Jovanovic was given a clear task. In case of need,
21 and I know what need General Djukic emphasized, he should ask for police
22 security. Police support.
23 Q. You were at the Main Staff, you knew better than I, why would a
24 person in Jovanovic's position go to chief of operations to get a MP
1 A. Your Honours, General Djukic issued the clear order to his
2 subordinate Colonel Jovanovic as to what he should do. I'm not going
3 into why it was he who had to do that. I really don't know what to say
4 about that.
5 Q. So I take it you are not aware of anyone, yourself or anyone else
6 having any contact with General Miletic about this order?
7 A. Your Honours, I'm certain I had no contact with him concerning
8 this order. I can't speak for others.
9 Q. So I take it you had no reason to believe General Miletic did not
10 have the authority to get a military police unit if need be?
11 A. Your Honours, at that point in time when General Djukic told me
12 that, that was sufficient for me to draw up this order. I didn't need
13 anything else.
14 Q. That wasn't my question.
15 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you please repeat it?
16 Q. My question was, you had no reason to believe that
17 General Miletic did not have the authority to get an MP unit when you
18 wrote this letter, or this order?
19 A. Your Honours, the question was put to me in such a way that I
20 really don't understand what you are asking me. I had no reason to
21 believe. As I said, I wasn't interested in that at all, nor was it up to
22 me to take an interest in why General Djukic was issuing an order to me.
23 He had to know that.
24 Q. Sir, this order went out in your name. The initials for the
25 person that drafted it are yours, the initial of the person that typed it
1 apparently are yours. You are responsible for this order, are you not?
2 A. Your Honours, as for the drawing up and delivery of this order,
3 yes, I was responsible.
4 Q. In fact, you heard of the Auto Battalion that was a Main Staff
5 logistics asset; correct?
6 A. Yes, the Auto Battalion was a staff unit, as you said, yes.
7 Q. And you told the Defence in getting -- in your meeting with them
8 before coming here that you think the buses that Djukic had told you
9 about were sent to Srebrenica from the Auto Battalion; correct?
10 A. Your Honours, I confirm what I said, but they didn't have 50
11 buses, as far as I can recall, so the question is how many buses were
13 Q. Well, let me just read you what the Defence told us and see if
14 you can agree with it. We just want to get this right:
15 "The witness remembers the day when VRS entered into Srebrenica
16 and knows that General Djukic ordered that 50 buses were sent to
17 Potocari. The witness does not know details about that as he was not
18 involved in sending these buses to Srebrenica. However, the witness
19 thinks that these buses are VRS buses which were sent to Srebrenica from
20 Auto Battalion which was a unit directly subordinated to General Djukic.
21 The witness does not have any knowledge about buses that were mobilised
22 from the civilian structures."
23 Do you agree with what the Defence told us about you, what you
24 told them?
25 A. If that's what I said, then that's what it was. But I added that
1 I didn't know whether all 50 buses were from the Auto Battalion. There
2 may have been some buses from other units. Those are details. The corps
3 had buses also.
4 Q. Sir, this is serious. Did you or -- do you or do you not agree
5 with what the Defence told us, what I just read to you?
6 A. I did say what it says here, yes.
7 Q. All right. And did you know someone the first name of Rajke,
9 A. Rajki or Rajko. Not Rajke.
10 Q. Rajko? Who is Rajko?
11 A. Rajko could be an organ of the traffic service in the corps.
12 Rajko --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last name, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miljanovic, could you repeat the last name,
15 please, because the interpreters didn't catch it.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, his name was
17 Rajko Krsmanovic, and he was a traffic organ in the corps or desk
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. All right. Thank you. We've got an intercept that I want to ask
21 you about. Does the town Milosevici mean anything to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. Well, your order that we just talked about on the
24 19th of July was received by somebody at 1.50 a.m. on the 20th, so it
25 looks like that order went out fairly late on the 19th.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: So let's now go, having that in mind, go to 65
2 ter 1271D is the English and it's 1271C in the B/C/S. Let me give you a
3 typed version of that so you don't have to try to follow the handwriting.
4 Q. This was intercepted that same day at 2116 hours, so late in the
5 day on the 19th, not really fairly close to your order likely. And if
6 you could take sometime to look at it.
7 A. Your Honours, do I have to read it all?
8 Q. Please. It's not very long. You'll see, it's a simple
9 intercept. I don't think there's anything very controversial in it, as
10 you read. We've heard about the buses in your previous order and Borike
11 and Sjeversko and the organising of those buses, or 50 vehicles. We see
12 mention of the 63rd, that's the Auto Battalion out of Zvornik; right?
13 A. I assume, yes, the 63rd Battalion.
14 Q. And we know what the 27th logistics base is.
15 A. Yes, Your Honours.
16 Q. This is a couple of people, Rajke is what the Muslims heard, and
17 Goran, and Kerkez. You've already told us about Kerkez that was in
18 logistics. And they clearly are talking about the organisation of these
19 vehicles, and on the second page of the English, you can see that they
20 start about:
21 "Let it be around 9.30 in the sector of Sjeversko," which we've
22 learned from other witnesses is right here Borike. And then it goes on
23 and next says, "To Sjeversko, then they will split them in Borike to the
24 left and right. Borike --"
25 A. Your Honours, I can't follow what is being read out. I haven't
1 found where it is, what you reading out now. Can you help me find it
2 please, where is it?
3 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. Well, it's not -- look for the word Koscanica in parentheses, do
6 you see that?
7 A. Sjeversko or Koscanica, is that it?
8 Q. It's the bottom of the first page in your draft, the first bottom
9 of the first page.
10 A. No, Your Honours. If that's on page 2, on page 2 in my version,
11 2, 4, 6, 8, it's the 16th line from the top. Koscanica in parenthesis.
12 Q. Why don't you hand it back to me sir, and I'll show you. Or you
13 can read it on the screen, it's right near the bottom. Third line up
14 from the bottom.
15 A. Yes, I see that, but in the version I have, it's on page 2 line
16 16, the typed text.
17 Q. Okay. Well just follow it along. If it's easier to go on the
19 And you'll see it says, "To Sjeversko, then they will split them
20 in Borike to the left and right, do you understand." Then we need to go
21 to page 2 in the B/C/S it says in Borike, X says, "Yes." Kerkez says,
22 "All right." X says, "Well, that would be all." Kerkez says, "Carry out
23 your part like you did last time." X says, "I'm dealing with it."
24 Kerkez says, "Although I think it will probably be less." X says, "All
25 right. They are looking again for 50 to 70 vehicles, do you understand?"
1 Kerkez says, "All right, all right." And X says, "So that the transport
2 could be carried out in one round."
3 Are you following this?
4 A. Yes, yes, Your Honours, now I'm following.
5 Q. Then Kerkez says, "In one round." X says, "Yes, most likely."
6 Kerkez, "All right." X, "Yes." Kerkez, "Deadline is at 14 hours but
7 we'll tell them it is at 12." X says, "But where?" Kerkez says, "Yes."
8 X says, "What? At 12 ... At 10 all vehicles should be in Sjeversko."
9 Kerkez says, "Miljanovic just told me." X says, "Listen." Kerkez says,
10 "Yes." X says, "I've just received the order from General Krstic."
11 Kerkez says, "Yes." X says, "That's what he is asking for." And Kerkez
12 says, "That is probably some reserve.
13 Here, Miljanovic told me that the agreement was to start loading
14 at 14 hours." And then it goes and talks about starting to start loading
15 and arranging it from Rogatica, and I'll stop there for now.
16 It's the Prosecution's position that this is happening at the
17 same time your last order, and that this is people organising the
18 vehicles to take the Muslim population out of Zepa and they want to do it
19 in one round, and that we know you were knowledge somewhat of this just
20 from your previous order. So does this help you refresh your
21 recollection that you were aware that there had been agreement that the
22 Muslims would start loading at a certain time?
23 A. Your Honours, I didn't know about any agreement, nor did I know
24 the point in time when the Muslims would board or whether they would
1 Q. Okay. And as we go over to the next page, there's some talk and
2 the Muslims hear it as "Balasevic," must know that, it's fine. And X
3 says, "Is Bosic over there?" And Kerkez says, "He is on duty on 175.
4 All right 175."
5 There is -- we have evidence in this case which is 65 ter 3011,
6 which I don't need to bring up, that on the 19th of July,
7 Tomislav Basevic, the logistics man from the Drina Corps is the duty
8 officer, and that 175 in another exhibit is the secure line at the Drina
9 Corps. So let me ask you, did you have any contact with Mr. Basevic
10 regarding these vehicles for the transport of Muslims from Zepa?
11 A. Your Honours, I don't remember any contact with Basa, that is
12 Mr. Basevic.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to another document, 65 ter
14 number 41. And I'll ...
15 Q. Now, this is a document, there's a translation error, it
16 shouldn't be General Staff of the army. It should be Main Staff of the
17 army up at the top. It's dated 14 July [sic], and it's noted to be
18 urgent. And it's under the name of General Mladic; and it's to the
19 attention of the command of the Drina Corps, and to the logistics sector
20 of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska. And a copy to the 1st
21 Zvornik Infantry Brigade for their information, and it says:
22 "This is to approve 5 tons of D-2 diesel fuel for carrying out
23 engineering works in the zone of the responsibility of the Drina Corps.
24 The logistics sector of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska
25 shall deliver the fuel to the standard barracks in Zvornik, to Captain
1 Milorad Trpic. Captain Trpic shall be responsible for the accurate
2 maintenance of records on the number of engine work hours of engineering
3 machines and account accordingly for consumption of fuel." Now --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Sorry I would just like to make a
6 correction on page 16 line 9 it's a 14th of September. Not the 14th of
7 July. I would just like to make that correction.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you agree to that, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's absolute correct.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, madam.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Now, clearly this is addressed to your sector. It says that your
13 sector, the Main Staff logistics sector shall deliver this fuel directly
14 to the barracks in Zvornik. Now, surely General Mladic would have spoken
15 to someone to get the details of this before signing off on an order with
16 such detail. Do you have knowledge of this, anything about this?
17 A. Your Honours, I have no knowledge whatsoever about this order,
18 absolutely none.
19 Q. Is there anything unusual about this order? For example, is it
20 normal for the -- for Mladic to order fuel directly to a brigade to a
21 security officer?
22 A. Your Honours, I didn't understand the question. I don't know
23 where Mladic was issuing the order from. I'm not going into where Mladic
24 was at the time.
25 Q. My question had nothing to do with where Mladic was. You may
1 recall spending a fair amount of time in direct examination talking about
2 brigades not going directly to the Main Staff; so I'm just asking you, is
3 it unusual for the Main Staff to send something directly to the brigade?
4 If that's what is happening, maybe it's not, and if you don't know,
5 that's fine.
6 A. Your Honours, if I understood the order well, when General Mladic
7 issues orders, then nothing is unusual. He also issued orders to
8 individuals directly wherever he was.
9 Q. Okay. Looking at the top of this order, it's number 03-4. Do
10 you know what Main Staff branch that is?
11 A. No, Your Honours, I wouldn't be able to tell you that.
12 Q. Well, we know, and we know that that is the administration for
13 operations and training that in September 14th General Miletic was the
14 head of. So this particular order, I take it, would not have been
15 drafted by the logistics sector, it would have been drafted by the
16 operations and training sector that General Miletic was involved in
18 A. Your Honours, what is the question that you are asking me? You
19 are just stating an assertion.
20 Q. I want you to either disagree or agree. We've been doing that a
21 long time, you should be getting used to it.
22 A. Your Honours, I cannot agree with you. Perhaps you know
23 something about that, but I don't, and that's a huge difference. I have
24 to tell the truth.
25 Q. So you think it's possible the logistics sector may have drafted
1 this and not the operations and training sector of Miletic?
2 A. No, Your Honours, not in the wildest dreams could this have been
3 written in the logistics sector and then sent by Mladic. I don't know
4 who signed this.
5 Q. Why not in the wildest dreams could the logistics sector be
6 involved in something like this? Sending fuel sounds radical, what is
7 the problem with that?
8 A. Your Honours, in response to your questions yesterday and the day
9 before yesterday, I said that I never put my signature under the name of
10 General Djukic. And I don't know who in the logistics would put their
11 signature under the name of Ratko Mladic. It is totally incomprehensible
12 to me.
13 Q. Sir, I'm not talking about putting anybody's signature anywhere.
14 Just asking you why is it so wild to think that the logistics unit was
15 involved in sending this fuel to Zvornik?
16 A. Well, Your Honour, this is not what I said. I'm repeating again.
17 No one can send such a telegram from the logistics and put Ratko Mladic's
18 name on it. Whether someone took part in drafting this situation with
19 the fuel, I said nothing.
20 THE INTERPRETER: We are not quite sure what the witness said.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: They are not alone in that.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we want to make sure. I think I leave it in
23 your hands, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you any more about who drafted it; we know
1 who drafted it. I'm not asking you about who sent it out; we know who
2 sent it out. I'm asking you if the logistics unit was involved in
3 sending the fuel pursuant to this order?
4 A. I understand the question. I don't know whether the logistics
5 sector of the Main Staff was involved in the execution of this order.
6 Q. Could they have been?
7 A. Yes, it was possible.
8 Q. And you in your position should have known about it?
9 A. No, Your Honours. I, in my position in the logistics sector of
10 the Main
11 this transaction.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter number 42.
13 Q. It's another Main Staff document. Same date, 14 September 1995
14 From the logistics centre this time, the technical division with a number
15 that we are familiar with, 10. And we see in this order it mentions:
16 "Pursuant to the order of the commander of the Main Staff of the
17 Army of Republika Srpska immediately issue the following quantity of fuel
18 to the Drina Corps Command, 5.000 litres."
19 I take it 5 tons equals 5.000 litres?
20 A. I don't understand the question. Is 5 tons the same as 5.000
22 Q. How many litres in a ton?
23 A. Yes, I agree with you that 5.000 litres equals 5 tons. I just
24 wanted to make sure whether that was your question.
25 Q. Okay. And is this logistics document under the name of
1 Colonel Zarko Zjubojevic related in your mind to the previous Mladic
3 A. Your Honours, this is what this document says, and there's a
4 number 03/4-241; and he is making reference to the previous one that you
5 showed me earlier.
6 Q. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure you know nothing
7 whatsoever about this that went out of the logistics sector, am I right?
8 A. I know nothing about this. This is the first time that I've seen
9 this and that is the truth.
10 Q. Sir, it's the -- I put my case to you, is that I don't believe
11 you are telling the truth, but on that note I have no further questions.
12 MR. JOSSE: He should answer that, in our submission.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in fact that's why I switched on my
14 microphone. Do you wish to comment on what Mr. McCloskey has just told
15 you? Do you wish to answer? He is alleging that you are --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey has just told you, in your face, that
18 he is not believing you. In other words, that you haven't been saying
19 the truth, speaking the truth. What is your answer to that, if you wish
20 to give us an answer?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I would like to
22 take this opportunity and say that this document that's been shown to me
23 and the actions described in them is something that I have heard about
24 and seen for the first time today, and that is my truth.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Ms. Fauveau, is there
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
3 Re-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Maybe we could keep in document on the screen
5 for the time being. In this document we see that it stems from the
6 technical department. Was the technical department under your authority?
7 A. No, Your Honours, it was not under my authority.
8 Q. Did you have any reason to know everything, or rather, did you
9 know what the technical department was doing?
10 A. Your Honours, I had no reason to interfere with the operation of
11 the technical department or to have knowledge about what they were doing.
12 Q. When General Djukic was present in 1995 in Han Pijesak when he
13 was holding a position there. Were you made aware of what General Djukic
14 was doing?
15 A. Your Honours, I had knowledge about his activities only to the
16 extent that he was prepared to give this information to me. I'm not a
17 person of inquisitive nature.
18 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
19 continues] ... D361 to the witness, please. 5D361 is the document I'd
20 like to show to the witness, please.
21 Q. This is a directive which you have talked about twice already.
22 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I need page 7, please, in B/C/S,
23 and 8 in English.
24 Q. Item 6.6, yesterday when I put the question to you who could have
25 written this paragraph, and you answered by saying General Djukic. Could
1 General Djukic have written this paragraph without mentioning it to you?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. What is the problem, Mr. Krgovic.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. At the
4 time when this document was drafted, this witness stood in for
5 General Djukic, and from his answer we can see that he started standing
6 in for him since 29 March 1995
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
8 continues] ... is dated the 31st of March. It doesn't mean that it was
9 written on the 31st of March --
10 THE INTERPRETER: There was a lot of noise in the courtroom, the
11 interpreter apologises.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, I couldn't follow you either, Ms. Fauveau.
13 So I would kindly ask you to repeat then I'll give the floor to
14 Mr. McCloskey, and then we'll decide what to do. If you could repeat
15 your response to the objection raised by Mr. Krgovic, please.
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] This document is a dated the 31st
17 of March, which does not mean that it was not drafted a few days prior to
18 that date.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I never brought that document up.
21 I don't believe my counsels did. This general idea --
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] My colleague did.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- about this witness doesn't know everything
24 that Djukic knows is fine. I'll stipulate to that, but the going back
25 into documents we bring up issues exactly like the one Mr. Krgovic has
1 brought out. Are we going to need out when it was drafted and all that?
2 I didn't bring it up, why are we getting into this? The probative value
3 of this witness on these topics I think is minimal and not worth wasting
4 time on.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, my colleague from the Gvero
7 team has suggested that this document was not written by the logistics
8 sector or in the logistics sector, so I'm entitled to put the question to
9 him as part of my redirect, and this was yesterday on page 55.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: But my question is, you are asking him could
11 General Djukic have written this paragraph without mentioning it to you?
12 Isn't it speculative in itself? What can he answer you?
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I don't know. My colleague put
14 the question to him, and General Djukic did not tell you or issue
15 instructions for to you prepare any proposals in connection with that.
16 My question ties into the question which was put by my colleague.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miljanovic, if you could answer the question
19 without speculating, then please go ahead. But if you don't know, just
20 tell us so, and we'll proceed.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would appreciate
22 the question to be repeated to me in order for me to have it clear.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Could General Djukic have written paragraph 6.6 without
25 mentioning it to you?
1 A. Yes, Your Honours, he could have done that, or could do that.
2 Q. Sir, yesterday my colleague read out General Djukic statement to
3 you. In this statement General Djukic said that he, himself,
4 General Gvero set up Salapura, Maric disagreed with Mladic. You told us
5 before that General Djukic was stationed in Han Pijesak. Where was
6 Salapura based? Do you know who he is first of all?
7 A. Colonel Salapura was an intelligence officer with the Main Staff
8 of the VRS, as far as I know. Maybe somebody else has different
10 Q. Where was his department based?
11 A. This administration was based in Crna Rijeka at the main command
13 Q. As far as Maric is concerned, where was he? M-A-R-I-C.
14 A. Yes, I am just waiting for the transcript. Maric was also
15 stationed in Crna Rijeka.
16 Q. What about Gvero?
17 A. The same applies to General Gvero, he was in Crna Rijeka.
18 General Mladic was in Crna Rijeka as well.
19 Q. It was suggested to you that there was no meeting between the
20 commander and his associates. So General Djukic who was based in
21 Han Pijesak, how could you know that this person in Crna Rijeka disagreed
22 with General Mladic?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: Objection. Calls for speculation.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers kindly not overlap for
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you answer this question without speculating?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how he knows about
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
8 line with what you told the investigators of the OTP. How did you know
10 A. Your Honours, I agreed with a part of General Djukic's statement
11 read out to me. I don't have a chance to see the statement in its
12 entirety. If you are referring to the part that you have just mentioned
13 now, then all I can say is that General Djukic often protested against
14 the orders issues by General Mladic in my presence, and he often
15 expressed dissatisfaction with certain moves and actions; but I didn't
16 want to get involved into that.
17 Q. All right. My question was not question precise.
18 How did you know about those people in Crna Rijeka: Salapura
19 Maric and General Gvero. How did you know that these people disagreed
20 with General Mladic?
21 A. I agreed with the opinion of General Djukic. I didn't want to go
22 into what kind of relationships are there between other generals and this
23 Colonel Salapura that has just been mentioned. Whether my opinion
24 coincide with the opinion about Maric as a personality, but not for a
25 moment did I presume to know what were the relationships between General
1 Mladic and General Gvero and General Mladic and Miletic and Salapura.
2 Q. You were asked several questions about Zepa. Do you know whether
3 General Djukic went to Zepa?
4 A. Your Honours, I don't know if General Djukic was in Zepa.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness
6 Exhibit number 1402. I apologise for the fact that this document has not
7 been translated, and this is an intercept dated 26 of July 1995. 5D1402.
8 That is the exhibit number. I apologise.
9 Q. We can see at the beginning of this intercept, first of all, the
10 date which is the 26th of July 1995; and then we can see this is a
11 conversation that took place at 13 hours 10. General Djukic talks to
12 Vukic [as interpreted] Rajko and Ratko and in brackets it says, "The
13 general is probably Mladic." For the sake of the record since we don't
14 have a translation I shall read the relevant part of this intercept. If
15 we could show the bottom part.
16 It's in the middle of the page, can you see this after the letter
17 D where it says "Djukic"?
18 A. Just give me a minute, please. Djukic, yeah, and before that
19 Ratko or Rajko, is that it?
20 Q. Yes, it's right there. And then the conversation continues:
21 "Rajko, tell me please is my boss there?"
22 Answer: "Yes, but he is resting. You will have to wait for
23 awhile. If you can wait, I'd like to ask you something you need not talk
24 to him."
1 "You were present when he ordered you for these men of mine, a
2 group, to go there, he said, but I don't know, he didn't say where they
3 should report to him."
4 "Yes, I was present. He is coming, the general heard you. He
5 will be here shortly."
6 Then we have the conversation between General Djukic and
7 General Mladic. General Mladic said, "Djuka, hello. General Djukic,
8 "Greetings, boss." Then it's Mladic, "How are you?" Djukic's answer,
9 "Very well, thank you." Then Mladic, "Is your health good?"
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we move on to the next page,
12 Q. Djukic said, "All is fine, but these men told me that my group
13 should arrive there only they are not certain to what sector." And then
14 Mladic said, "Let them come to Boksanica at UNPROFOR checkpoint number
15 2." And Djukic said, "Okay." Mladic added, "By Rogatica." Then Djukic,
16 "Very well." And then Mladic told him, "You can take a walk as well."
17 Then Djukic said, "I'd love to, but I don't know." And then he said,
18 "I'm coming." And a bit later, "By the way, I need something to agree
19 with you." And then Mladic told him, "Agreed and bring with you the
20 papers that need to be signed." And Mladic added, "And see with Krbic
21 and Miletic what papers need to be signed."
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it's time for
23 the break.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so too. So let's have a 25-minute break.
25 Thank you.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I start, the
4 Prosecutor informed me during the break that the document I used just
5 now, 5D1401 [sic], is document P1358C in the e-court system and that
6 there is an English translation of this document. I'm sorry I wasted the
7 Chambers time with this document.
8 Q. Witness, you stated that you did not know that General Djukic
9 went to the Zepa region. Did you know that on the 26th of July,
10 General Mladic was this at that region, was in the Zepa region?
11 A. No, I didn't.
12 Q. Do you know where General Mladic was in August and September
14 A. I cannot remember, Your Honours. I do not know.
15 Q. What was the most critical frontline at the time?
16 A. As far as I can remember, it was the area around Sarajevo
17 most critical situation was in the Krajina.
18 Q. Do you know whether General Mladic went to the Krajina?
19 A. I know that General Mladic had been to the Krajina on many
20 occasions, but I cannot confirm that he was there on this particular
22 Q. Do you remember where General Djukic was in August 1995?
23 A. No, Your Honours, I cannot remember that either.
24 Q. Did you go to the Krajina in August 1995?
25 A. If we are talking about August 1995, I was in Banja Luka.
1 Whether I went any further than that, I can't recall.
2 Q. When you went in Banja Luka or somewhere else, were you able to
3 send the documents you were supposed to send? As a general rule, were
4 you in a position to send documents when you were away from the logistics
5 command post from the Main Staff?
6 A. Yes, I understand your question. Wherever I was, I was able to
7 send any document I wanted to.
8 Q. What did you put in the heading of the document?
9 A. Your Honours, when I had this need, I put in the heading Main
10 Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, sector for the rear. The initial
11 numbers, whatever they were, I can't recall now, the date, the contents.
12 Q. All right. That's enough. When did you see General Djukic for
13 the last time before he was arrested?
14 A. Your Honours, this was sometime between the 1st and the 15th of
15 January 1996.
16 Q. And at the time, what was his health condition like?
17 A. Your Honours, General Djukic was ill, but he didn't appear to be
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. No further
20 questions, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, madam. Judge Kwon? Judge Stole?
22 Mr. Miljanovic, we have come to the end of your testimony. On behalf of
23 the Trial Chamber, I thank you for coming over to give evidence, and I
24 also wish you a safe journey back home.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents? There are nine documents which the
3 Miletic Defence team wishes to tender. The list has been circulated.
4 Mr. McCloskey, do you have any objections to any of these documents?
5 Yes, madam, sorry?
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Instead of document 5D1401, I seek
7 the admission of document P1358C. It's already been translated and it's
8 exactly the same document as 5D1401.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That makes things easier. Thank you,
10 madam. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to clear up the numbers, that was originally
12 5D1402, not 01, but ...
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Otherwise --
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] That's right.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise, you don't have any objections to any of
16 these nine documents?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: One moment, please.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objection.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So they are all admitted.
21 There are no documents from the other Defence teams?
22 MR. JOSSE: We have got one, Your Honour. The list has been
23 circulated, it's 6D234.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It hasn't reached us.
25 MR. JOSSE: It was the laws that were put to the witness.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I see okay. Do you have any objections.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you, Ms. Fauveau.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: That is also admitted. Then we have the
6 Prosecution list, which has also been circulated.
7 Any objections, Ms. Fauveau?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Other Defence teams, any objections? So all these
10 documents are also all admitted. And we can proceed with the next
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that this
13 witness should be notified of his rights pursuant to rule 90 (b) of the
15 JUDGE AGIUS: 90 (e) not (b). For the record, now, I notice the
16 presence of Mr. Thayer amongst the Prosecution team and of Mr. Haynes for
17 General Pandurevic.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: General Pandurevic, any time you need to leave the
20 courtroom, you only please need to tell us.
21 Good morning, to you, Mr. Masal, and welcome to this Tribunal.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Thank
24 JUDGE AGIUS: The Defence team for General Miletic has summoned
25 you as a Defence witness. Before you start giving evidence, you are
1 required to make a solemn declaration according to our rules to the
2 effect that you will be testifying this oath. The text is being handed
3 to you now, please read it out allowed, and that will be your solemn
4 commitment with us.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that
6 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
8 WITNESS: DRAGISA MASAL
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: You are here as a witness to answer all the
11 questions that will be put to you both by the Defence team for
12 General Miletic, and others, including the Prosecution. I don't know
13 what questions you will be asked. But there is a possibility that you
14 may be asked questions which if you answer truthfully, as per the solemn
15 declaration that you have just made, if you answer truthfully, that could
16 possibly lead to some kind of investigation and also criminal proceedings
17 against you. I'm not saying that this will happen. I'm not saying that
18 there will be such questions. But I cannot exclude such questions being
19 possibly made to you either. If such questions are made to you and in
20 your mind you feel that if you answer them you would be incriminating
21 yourself or exposing yourself to criminal proceedings, then you have a
22 right under our rules to ask us, the Judges in this case, to exempt you
23 from answering such questions. You need to be specific, you need to tell
24 us that you wish not to answer such questions because you consider them
1 We will then decide whether to grant you such exemption or not
2 because your right is not absolute. If we decide to exempt you from
3 answering such questions, that's fine. But we could also decide to order
4 you to answer such questions. In such a case you have a further right,
5 and that is that whatever you may have stated in reply to questions which
6 we order you to answer, cannot be then made use of against you in any
7 criminal proceedings that may be taken against you.
8 Is that clear? Is that a clear explanation of your right, or do
9 you want me to expand?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you are right clear.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we can start. Ms. Fauveau will be
12 asking you some questions. Thank you.
13 Examination by Ms. Fauveau:
14 Q. [Interpretation] General, could you please state your first name
15 and last name?
16 A. Your Honours, my name is Dragisa Masal.
17 Q. Could you please tell us briefly about your educational
18 background, what schools you went to and so on?
19 A. I completed a civilian secondary school, and then the military
20 academy, the command staff academy, and the school of national defence,
21 the last three were all military schools.
22 Q. What positions did you hold before the beginning of the war in
23 the former Yugoslavia
24 A. Before the beginning of the war in the former Yugoslavia, I held
25 the post of commander of an artillery platoon, battery commander,
1 commander of artillery battalion, of a regiment, then chief of artillery
2 in a mechanised brigade, and chief of artillery in the corps.
3 Q. When did you join the Army of Republika Srpska?
4 A. I joined the Army of Republika Srpska as soon as it was formed.
5 That is from the 12th of May 1992.
6 Q. What positions did you hold in the Army of Republika Srpska
7 between the 12th of May 1992 and the end of 1995?
8 A. In the Army of Republika Srpska, I was the commander of an
9 artillery regiment, the commander of the Visegrad tactical group and the
10 chief of artillery in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
11 Q. Can you tell us what rank you had when you joined the Army of
12 Republika Srpska?
13 A. I was colonel.
14 Q. When were you promoted to the rank of general?
15 A. I was promoted to the rank of general after the war. To
16 major-general in 1998 and to lieutenant-general in 2001.
17 Q. Just briefly, can you tell us what positions you held after the
19 A. After the war, I was appointed chief of the sector for
20 organisation, mobilisation, and personnel affairs in the General Staff of
21 the Army of Republika Srpska.
22 Q. I'd like to turn now to your position of commander of the
23 tactical group of Visegrad. When did you become commander of the
24 Visegrad tactical group?
25 A. I became commander of the Visegrad tactical group on the 4th of
1 February 1993.
2 Q. And until when did you hold that position?
3 A. I held that position until the 20th of August 1994.
4 Q. What was the area of responsibility of the Visegrad tactical
6 A. My area of responsibility or rather the area of responsibility of
7 the Visegrad tactical group corresponded to the territory of five
8 municipalities in the upper Podrinje area and these were the
9 municipalities of Rogatica, Visegrad, Rudo, Cajnice, and Gorazde.
10 Q. When you were a commander of the Visegrad tactical group, who was
11 your immediate superior?
12 A. My immediate superior was the commander of the Drina Corps,
13 General Zivanovic.
14 Q. You stated that in 1993 you were the commander of the Visegrad
15 tactical group, were you aware of agreements related to protected areas
16 in Eastern Bosnia?
17 A. With respect to the agreements related to protected areas, I was
18 not directly familiar with those, but through orders coming from the
19 superior command as the commander of the tactical group, I was fully
20 informed of the establishment of the protected areas of Srebrenica, Zepa,
21 and Gorazde.
22 Q. Did you receive specific instructions from your higher command
23 related to these protected areas?
24 A. I received an order on the signing of a ceasefire between the
25 commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, the
1 commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, that is
2 General Mladic, and of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina General Halilovic,
3 and the commander of UNPROFOR. With respect to the cessation of
4 hostilities and the declaration or rather the establishment of protected
5 areas, the protected areas of Srebrenica, Zepa, Gorazde, Tuzla, and
6 Bihac, these were part of that agreement.
7 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show the witness Exhibit
8 5D1200. It's an order coming from the Main Staff dated 8th of May 1993,
9 on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde, and on the
10 cessation of any type of military activity in these areas. Could we have
11 page 2 in English. I'm interested in point 4 of the document.
12 Q. Witness, under this point mention is made of the creation of
13 commissions to monitor the demilitarisation. Were you aware of the
14 existence of these commissions?
15 A. Yes, I received this order as the commander of the tactical group
16 in view of the fact that I was duty-bound to designate people from my
17 command, from my unit, to the commissions in the areas of Zepa and
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 2 in
20 B/C/S, and page 3 in English.
21 Q. At point 4 .3 related to Gorazde, we can see indeed that an
22 officer from the Visegrad tactical group is to be appointed; and when it
23 comes to point 4.2 related to Zepa, do you recognise the names of the
24 people who are mentioned as being part of this commission?
25 A. Yes. I designated from my unit Luka Dragicevic, who was a
1 lieutenant-colonel and an interpreter for the English language. I would
2 also like to add that I designated from my unit for the commission for
3 the Zepa area Major Radomir Furtula, who was a member of the commission.
4 He was then the Chief of Staff of the Rogatica Brigade and also an
5 interpreter for the English language.
6 Q. Just one point of clarification, you mentioned Luka Dragicevic
7 and the interpreter for the English language when you are talking about
8 the two persons, you are talking about the Gorazde commission.
9 Did the Zepa commission actually work, was it effective?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President I wanted to note for my
12 friend, I think the witness answered her question and it was reflected
13 for a second but then disappeared from the transcript as to whether he
14 was referring to both the interpreter for the English language and
15 another individual. I thought I heard him say yes, and I think it was
16 actually in the transcript for a minute. It's not there, I don't know if
17 that's the case or not, but I just wanted to bring that up before we move
18 too further along.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think it's would probably be
21 best if I repeated the question.
22 Q. Witness, for the record, you talked about Luka Dragicevic and an
23 interpreter for the English language. Were these two individuals member
24 of the Gorazde commission?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, I'd like to talk about the Zepa commission. Did this
2 commission actually work?
3 A. This commission was established and on several occasions, it
4 spent time in Zepa with a view to carrying out the tasks it had been
5 assigned with respect to the demilitarisation of the Zepa protected area.
6 However, after some 15 days or so of work, that commission ceased
7 to function because the overall activities in the protected area of Zepa
8 as regards demilitarisation or the withdrawal of weapons by the Muslim
9 forces had no results.
10 Q. What was the situation in relation to the Gorazde commission?
11 A. The commission for Gorazde was established, but it never actually
12 went to Gorazde.
13 Q. I would now like to show you item 7 which you have in front of
14 you in B/C/S. In English this will be on page 4.
15 This is page 3, it's item 7 I'm interested in. At the top of
16 page 4. I am sorry, this should be at the bottom of page 3. We can
18 [In English] "Members of the so-called army of BiH once weapons
19 or handed over, are to be treated like any other civilians with freedom
20 of movement provided for all so that they can if they wish leave the said
21 regions or remain there."
22 [Interpretation] At the time you received this order, was the
23 army of the Republika Srpska ready to fulfill what is mentioned at item
25 A. We sincerely believed in this agreement on the cessation of
1 hostilities, and we felt that it was a good beginning to putting an end
2 to the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The orders of the superior command
3 were orders we took seriously, and we complied with them and carried out
4 all the tasks in order to preserve the ceasefire and make it possible to
5 achieve the final goal which was the end of the war through peaceful
6 political means. And we complied with the orders consistently.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would now like to show you
8 Exhibit number 5D1027, which is another order stemming from the staff of
9 the Main Staff of the Army Republika Srpska dated the 9th of May 1993,
10 and which relates also to the agreement signed on the 8th of May 1993.
11 Q. At item 1 week see that the ceasefire on the entire territory of
12 the former Bosnia-Herzegovina should come into effect at noon
13 of May 1993, but what I'm interested in is item 2 and more specific here,
14 the first two sentences. We can see that it is said one should not fire
15 back if the enemy opens fire, and one should only respond if the infantry
16 or tanks attack in an organised manner.
17 Can you tell us when you needed to fire back and when you
18 shouldn't fire back? As far as I'm concerned, I'm not a military person
19 and this is not very clear to me.
20 A. The order issued by the Main Staff is precise. Based on this
21 order, all the commands were obliged to inform all members up to the last
22 soldier with the content of this order. This item stipulates in detail
23 that refraining from responding to enemy artillery fire, and lesser
24 provocations should be done because the combat readiness on the positions
25 of units is such that if artillery fire, if it is a provocation only, the
1 units can be protected and find cover. Then it goes on to say that only
2 in the event of an organised infantry or tank attacks, meaning that all
3 the units must accept combat if it is a serious attack, in order to
4 secure the existing positions. This is the essence of this item in this
5 order. As far as this is concerned, all my commands and units strictly
6 followed this order.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would now like to show you
8 Exhibit number 5D1025. This is an order stemming from the staff of the
9 Main Staff dated the 11th of May 1993. We are still talking about the
10 agreements and the demilitarised zones.
11 Q. Could you read item 3, please, which starts with: "Demilitarised
12 zone will be controlled by UNPROFOR."
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. At the time, i.e., in May 1993, you at least since you were the
15 commander of the Visegrad tactical group and part of the Army Republika
16 Srpska, did you think that the -- that UNPROFOR would fulfill its tasks?
17 Let me repeat my question.
18 In 1993, the army of the Republika Srpska and you as a commander
19 of the Visegrad tactical group, did you believe that UNPROFOR would
20 fulfill its tasks?
21 A. Initially we believed that the agreement would be implemented as
22 a whole, that is to say, that implementation of the agreement would
23 begin. However, after the first visit by the commission to Zepa and
24 particularly due to the fact that the Gorazde commission never went on
25 the ground, or, rather, it was never invited to go to Gorazde, we
1 realised that the Muslim forces and the Muslim command and UNPROFOR as
2 well, this agreement was actually a farce in its entirety.
3 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd now like to show you the last
4 order. Exhibit number 5D1026 is the last order in this batch. I would
5 like to show you two exhibits, but it's one in the same order. This is
6 order dated 14th of May 1993. 02/2-420.
7 Q. Could you look at the bottom of this document, of this order.
8 Who was this order sent out to?
9 A. Yes, I've seen it.
10 Q. Did you receive this order?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Now, the copy we have in B/C/S is
13 not very legible. Could we show the witness Exhibit number 1202, which
14 is the same order, and which is a signed version of this same order.
15 Q. General, can you confirm that this order is an identical order to
16 the one you've seen previously, save for the fact that this one is a
17 signed order?
18 A. Yes, that's an identical order. This is an original bearing the
19 signature of the commander of the Main Staff.
20 Q. What I'm particularly interested in is item 1 of this order,
21 which reads:
22 [In English] "Enable unhindered passage of and protection of
23 consignments, equipment and personnel providing aid intended for the
24 civilian population of the opposing side."
25 [Interpretation] You said that you were in the area of Zepa and
1 Gorazde. Did your units abide by this order?
2 A. My units in our area of responsibility follow the orders to the
3 full, i.e., we strictly abided by the Main Staff's order on the cessation
4 of combat operations and on the respect of the borders of the protected
6 Q. Now, as far as passage of aid is concerned, that was intended for
7 the civilian population of the opposite side. What was the situation
9 A. There were no problems for the convoys of humanitarian
10 organisations to pass through as well as the evacuation convoys or those
11 delivering any staff to Zepa and other zones. Their routes were
12 precisely determined and there were also checkpoints where they were
13 inspected. And we knew exactly along which routes and at what times they
14 would pass.
15 Q. We shall get back to the issue of the convoys a little bit later.
16 Could you now look at paragraph 2, please, where we discuss
17 misappropriation of some of the aid for military teary purposes. Why was
18 this order drafted like this?
19 A. The reason for including this kind of stipulation into this order
20 was probably reports from the ground and intelligence confirming that in
21 certain combat zones and areas, the infrastructure required for the
22 normal day-to-day life of civilians was being abused; and it was actually
23 used as an instrument to exert pressure on the civilian population.
24 Specifically in my area, we did not have under our control any
25 installations that could have impact on the protected area such as the
1 sources of drinking water, et cetera, or facilities for the production of
2 certain fuels. The only problem that existed was the electric grid which
3 in the whole area was largely damaged and could not have been fixed and
4 restored in a very short time.
5 Q. We have seen the orders given by the army of the Republika Srpska
6 relating to the agreements on -- pertaining to the demilitarised zones.
7 Could you tell us what the attitude of the army of the ABiH was vis-a-vis
8 these agreements?
9 A. We sincerely anticipated and expected that the command of the BH
10 Army would take a serious approach to the implementation of this
11 agreement. However, and precisely because the commission was not
12 accepted and was denied entry to Gorazde, we finally realised that their
13 intention was not to stop the war; but rather their own intention was to
14 bide time and place certain areas step by step under the protection of
15 the UN forces, and to regroup the forces from these areas and dispatch
16 them to other regions to carry out combat operations. We practically
17 could feel that coming from the so-called protected area of Gorazde.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show you a few orders
19 that are dated 1993. I shall not go into these in detail. The first one
20 is 5D1264.
21 Q. This is an order which stems from the tactical group in Visegrad
22 and which is dated 12th of November 1993.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we see page 2 in English,
24 please. Could we show the witness the bottom of page 1, please.
25 Q. This is an order which bears your name.
1 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure whether he can read it.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Kwon.
3 Q. Let's look at item 3, please, which addresses TGD. This is a
4 sabotage group and terrorism group in Zepa. I'm not interested in the
5 details of all of it, but you remember anything about this order and a
6 situation in which armed groups were leaving Zepa?
7 A. Just a minor correction, this should read subversive and
8 terrorist group. That's what TGD stands for. The reason was on several
9 occasions from the direction of the protected area of Zepa and from
10 Gorazde, these sabotage terrorist groups were infiltrated into my area of
11 responsibility; and their task was to render the roads impassable to
12 hinder or make uncertain and unsafe any movement within the depth of the
13 territory, and to keep our units under constant tension.
14 This order was precisely proceeded by such a terrorist and
15 sabotage action on the Kopito pass on the Rogatica road. They planted an
16 anti-tank mine in the pot hole on the road. The mine was hit by a
17 vehicle and the three members of the VRS who were in the car were
18 seriously injured.
19 In addition to these events, we received intelligence and
20 gathered information that such groups are continually being prepared both
21 in Zepa and Srebrenica. They were given combat tasks, but very often
22 these groups, inverted commas, protected the so-called smuggler's
23 convoys, because smuggling was flourishing between Zepa and Gorazde,
24 particularly cigarettes, alcohol, and other items and food stuffs that
25 were lacking in Zepa. And Gorazde was to a large extent receiving its
1 deliveries from Sarajevo
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
3 MR. THAYER: I am sorry, Mr. President, I didn't mean to
4 interrupt the answer. I thought the witness had completed his answer. I
5 just wanted to -- perhaps it will help my learned friend save a little
6 bit of her time again as we've stated from day one of this trial, the
7 Prosecution does not dispute that there were excursions and incursions
8 from the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves by armed groups of Muslim fighters
9 throughout this period of time. That is not in dispute in case and never
10 has been.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So please avoid -- thank
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I fully agree with what Mr. Thayer
14 has said. I have no intention to demonstrate that these groups were
15 there, but I would like to talk about the actions and the attitude of the
16 Republika Srpska because the Prosecution when it presented its case
17 mentioned a number of things about Gorazde, which are not contained in
18 the indictment. This is why I felt it was important, but whatever the
19 case may be, I shall not spend a lot of time on this.
20 And the other thing is I would like to say is that this document,
21 which relates to my cross-examination, are the documents which are the
22 witness's documents which he signed personally as a commander of the
23 Visegrad tactical group; and I believe it's very important to hear -- for
24 the Trial Chamber to hear questions put on this issue.
25 Q. General, you heard I would like to show you three to four
1 documents, and we shall address the details a little later. I would now
2 like to show you 5D1265.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I apologise. Before seeing this
4 document, I would need to see document 5D1029.
5 Q. The document that will come up on your screen very shortly, is a
6 document stemming from the staff of the Main Staff of the 14th of
7 November 1993. If you look at the part of this document which starts
8 with, "On the 11th of November," in B/C/S it discusses the communications
9 between Visegrad and Rogatica. It's right in the middle of the page.
10 What I'm interested in is this, is this the situation which you mentioned
11 awhile ago when you were talking about your order which was dated the
12 12th of November?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] If we could now see Exhibit number
15 5D1265. Once again, could we see the second page in English and the
16 bottom of the page in B/C/S.
17 Q. Do you see your name on this order?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness
20 paragraph -- in other words, the preamble to this order. This is on page
21 1 in English.
22 Q. This is another situation which is very similar to the one you
23 described to us a moment ago.
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] One last order which is Exhibit
2 Q. This again is an order coming from the Visegrad tactical group
3 dated the 14th of December 1995 [sic]. What I'm interested in is this,
4 the preamble, and the passage which reads:
5 [In English] "The Muslim forces are preparing an attack on our
6 positions from the directions of Zepa and Gorazde, with the aim of
7 relieving their forces in the Olovo and Teocak sectors."
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
9 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just to correct the record, it's
10 1993. It's a mistake in the English translation as well, the original is
11 obviously 1993.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, I think that's correct. So let's
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, quite, right, I believe it
15 was my mistake. I think I said 1995.
16 Q. What I'm interested in is not so much the fact that the Muslim
17 forces were coming out of Gorazde and Zepa. But this objective i.e., to
18 help their forces in Olovo be and Teocak. Could you tell us where Olovo
19 and Teocak is?
20 A. Olovo is to the southwest of my area of responsibility, that is
21 from Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, in the direction of Tuzla and Sarajevo
23 area to the southwest of Bijeljina and Zvornik. That's the area of
25 Evidently, at that time there was intensive fighting going on in
1 these two areas, and it was precisely for this reason that armed units in
2 Srebrenica and Zepa were given the tasks of carrying out sabotage
3 activities in the area around the protected areas in order to relieve the
4 armed units in these two sectors.
5 Q. Save for this objective, did you know in 1993 whether the Muslim
6 forces in the enclaves, I mean all the enclaves, Zepa, Srebrenica and
7 Gorazde, do you know whether they had a specific objective?
8 A. After the protected areas were established, those of Srebrenica,
9 Zepa and Gorazde; and after UNPROFOR forces entered Srebrenica and Zepa,
10 whereas the Gorazde enclave was not put into that function, the forces
11 there prepared to take that area of Podrinje, Rudo, Visegrad, and so on,
12 and to completely join up Gorazde and Zepa. This way, they would gain a
13 compact territory from central Bosnia
14 and Zepa, and that would create the conditions in joint action with
15 forces from Tuzla
16 We received intelligence showing that such an operation was being
17 prepared in May in the direction of Visegrad.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would now like to show you
19 Exhibit number 5D1169.
20 Q. This is an order stemming from the Main Staff of the army dated
21 the 22nd of May 1993. You have just talked about information received by
22 the intelligence services. Do you think this order has anything to do
23 with that information?
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, can the witness be
25 shown item 3, please. This is right at the bottom in English. This
1 would be on page 2, the second part of paragraph 3.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I reply? Before this order
3 arrived, I carried out a detailed analysis of the situation in the area
4 of responsibility of my tactical group, and after the protected areas
5 were established. After this detailed analysis, I submitted this
6 information to the superior command along with certain proposals as to
7 what should be done in order to put the situation completely under
8 control, and to stabilize the situation especially with respect to
9 Gorazde. One of the bases for the taking of specific measures was my
10 report on the concrete situation on the ground.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would just like to clarify one
12 point. Could the witness be shown the date of this order, please.
13 Q. Here we are talking about the 22nd of May 1993. I don't think it
14 is disputed that Zepa and -- Srebrenica and Zepa were already safe areas.
15 Could you tell us what the situation was like in Gorazde?
16 A. I have already said that. The Muslim forces in Gorazde took
17 advantage of the signing of the agreement on protected areas in order to
18 prepare for offensive combat activities. It is my personal opinion that
19 it was not in their interest for Gorazde to be given full protected area
20 status where UNPROFOR forces would come in. It was sufficient for them
21 to have five or six UN observers who would monitor the situation and
22 report on any activity by Serb forces around Gorazde, whereas their own
23 activities, they either could not or did not want to monitor.
24 Q. Just to be quite sure. At the time, was UNPROFOR and the forces
25 of UNPROFOR, were they in Gorazde at the time this order was issued?
1 A. Only monitors.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
3 page 2 in B/C/S. This will be on page 3 in the English at the bottom of
4 the page. In B/C/S and in English this is at the bottom of the page.
5 Can you see the bottom of the page, could the witness be shown the bottom
6 of the page, please. There it is.
7 Q. The paragraph which begins with, "In the second stage." In this
8 paragraph, we see that what has been requested are the conditions, the
9 prerequisite conditions to be able to disarm the Muslim forces and make
10 sure the civilian population can leave for central Bosnia or stay in town
11 if it recognizes the Serb authority. What was the overall policy of the
12 army of the Republika Srpska when it entered a town in which the Muslims
14 A. What I am aware of, and I do know this, is that in all orders and
15 especially in preparing combat activities, emphasis was always laid on
16 taking into account possible casualties among the civilian population,
17 and to reduce such casualties to a minimum, especially in built-up areas,
18 or to avoid them, if at all possible.
19 It's evident from this order that in every territory which was
20 being liberated, the Muslim population was given the option of staying.
21 But if they decided to leave and move to territories under the control of
22 their army, they could do so.
23 In my own experience, I never found any civilians in any of the
24 territories we liberated. Evidently, even before intensive fighting
25 began, the civilian population was moved out of the area where the
1 fighting would take place.
2 JUDGE KWON: Madam Fauveau Ivanovic. Could you could help me
3 finding the passage in English.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think there is a mistake in
5 English: "In the first stage" and then the part I was interested in
6 where the last three sentences, "... creating conditions to disarm the
7 Muslim formations and enable the civilian population to move out of
8 central Bosnia
9 This is on page 3, the last three lines, but I believe that must
10 be a mistake in the translation. I don't mean these three lines but
11 prior to that.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I asked this question because I couldn't find,
13 "In the second stage" at all.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I realised that when I was
15 asking the question, Your Honour.
16 Q. You stated, General, that you never encountered a situation where
17 the Army of Republika Srpska would have found any Muslim population on
18 the territory where they arrived, but are you aware of cases where the
19 Muslim population remained on a territory now in control of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska? Not now but during the war, a territory that during
21 the war was under the control of the army of the Republika Srpska?
22 A. In my area from the very beginning of the war until nearly the
23 end of the war there were four villages which were purely Muslim,
24 according to their ethnicity, this was between Visegrad and Rogatica.
25 They belonged to Rogatica municipality and these villages were
1 Satorovici, Osovo, Okruglo, and Burati. That population remained living
2 on territory controlled by the army of Republika Srpska and under the
3 Serbian civilian authorities. A large influence was exerted on them to
4 remain by a retired general of the former JNA, Asim Hodzic, who was
5 advanced in years; but when combat began in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he was
6 living in the village of Satorovici
7 occasion to meet him personally when he was being transported from
8 Rogatica via Visegrad and Uzice to Belgrade at the military medical
9 [Realtime transcript read in error, "military academy."] academy. The
10 population in these villages remained peaceful, and they lived there
11 until the second half of 1994 peacefully. Then they moved away probably
12 in the direction of Sarajevo
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER: Mr. President if we could have spellings for those
15 villages for the record since they came out kind of fast.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay thank you. Who is going do that?
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I was about to come back to
18 that particular issue.
19 Q. Witness, would you please repeat very slowly the names of these
21 A. Yes. These were the villages of Satorovici, S-A-T-O-R-O-V-I-C-I;
22 Okruglo, O-K-R-U-G-L-O; Osovo, O-S-O-V-O; and Burati, B-U-R-A-T-I.
23 Q. Just one more clarification, please, Asim Hodzic this retired
24 general, what was his nationality?
25 A. Asim Hodzic, he was a Muslim by nationality.
1 Q. I believe that we need to correct the transcript here again.
2 Page 52 line 5, you mention the fact that he was translated to Belgrade
3 from Rogatica via Visegrad and Uzice. Could you tell us where he went to
5 A. He went to the military medical academy to undergo medical
6 treatment there.
7 Q. You mentioned this civilian population that remained for the
8 major part of the war in territories controlled by the Army of Republika
9 Srpska. Did this population have any problem where it was?
10 A. Occasionally they suffer the provocations from individuals or
11 small groups who disturbed those people and exerted verbal pressure on
12 them to get them to move away from the territory and from their villages.
13 I know that the commander of the first Rogatica Brigade intervened with
14 the civilian authorities more than once to have the civilian police
15 patrol those villages more often and protect those people from possible
16 individual provocations.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit
19 Q. I believe that the document speaks for itself, but I'd like to
20 clarify one thing. Did you know Major Rajko Kusic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In March 1994, when this document was drafted, who was his
23 immediate superior, do you know that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you once again tell us who his immediate superior was
1 because the answer we got in English was, "Yes," but I believe that you
2 intended to say something else?
3 A. His immediate superior was Colonel Dragisa Masal.
4 Q. Just before the break, I'd like to deal with civilian population
5 again. Throughout your career in the army of Republika Srpska were you
6 ever faced with situations in which the ABiH used its own population for
7 military purposes?
8 A. Yes. I did acquire such information, especially when I was
9 commanding the Visegrad tactical group in the Gorazde area. The civilian
10 population was used in large numbers in the rear and to help the
11 frontline, primarily to carry ammunition to the combat line to fortify
12 defence positions, dig trenches, shelters and so on.
13 We learned this from several Serb civilians who remained in
14 Gorazde until 1994. Not only were these Serbs who remained in Gorazde
15 used for these purposes, but the Muslim population was also used for that
16 in large numbers.
17 Q. With respect to these Serb civilians remained in Gorazde until
18 1994, do you know whether they remained in Gorazde of their own free
19 will, or whether they were forced to remain there?
20 A. As far as I know, there were two villages in Gorazde which were
21 Serb villages in the western part of the area around Gorazde in the part
22 of Sarajevo
23 these villages was called Bukovica or something like that. And based on
24 the facts we obtained from the Serbs who had fled from Gorazde and from
25 the survivors who left in 19.94 they were completely cut off and were
1 unable to leave their villages. They were very far from other Serb
2 territories and Serb villages.
4 for the break.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll have a 25-minute break now. Thank
7 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau, any time you wish to stop, just let us
10 know, please. Thank you.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Could the witness be shown Exhibit 5D1000.
13 Q. Before the break we were talking about the use of the civilian
14 population for military purposes. Here we have a document dating back to
15 the period prior to you joining the Visegrad tactical group. Could you
16 have a quick look at this document and tell us whether what was described
17 in this document corresponds to what you yourself saw or were aware of.
18 A. Yes, completely.
19 Q. General, in this trial we've reviewed a number of directives.
20 I'd like to show you Directive number 5. That's Exhibit 5D1201. This is
21 dated 25th of June 1993.
22 First of all, at the time were you aware of this document?
23 A. I did not have an opportunity to see this directive, but I did
24 receive an order from my superior command relating to this directive.
25 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 4 in
1 B/C/S, and page 7 in English.
2 Q. What I'm interested in is the task assigned to the Drina Corps:
3 [In English] "Hold remaining [indiscernible] and Gorazde, Zepa
4 and Srebrenica completely under siege and [indiscernible]."
5 [Interpretation] I believe there is an error in the English
6 translation because in the original version in B/C/S mention is made of a
7 constant siege.
8 Could you please explain why it was necessary to keep Muslim
9 forces under constant siege?
10 A. Based on what is contained in this directive and knowing, or,
11 rather, remembering the task that I had been assigned was that owing to
12 their ongoing activities and particularly offensive attacks coming from
13 the direction of Gorazde, all the units were requested, or, rather,
14 ordered to keep these forces under constant blockade with a view to
15 preventing their incursions into the rear part of our territory, and with
16 a view to establishing control between the protected areas or enclaves.
17 In early 1993, or, rather, in April and May 1993, all the three
18 enclaves were fully physical separated. However, the activities taking
19 place there, and particularly the activities of large or small terrorist
20 and sabotage groups, and some extensive offensive actions as well, they
21 attempted to keep the communication between the enclaves under their
22 permanent control, which is to enable their movement and coordinated
23 actions between the enclaves.
24 Q. I'd like to move on to another topic now.
25 You've already mentioned UNPROFOR and convoys. Do you remember
1 whether UNPROFOR convoys and convoys from humanitarian associations were
2 controlled, were checked in 1993 when you were the commander of the
3 Visegrad tactical group.
4 A. Convoys headed towards Zepa and Gorazde passed through my zone.
5 The order of my superior command based on the order of the Main Staff,
6 which I very often received directly, it was very precisely stipulated in
7 what way and at which point the movement and the cargo of the convoys
8 would be checked. And I'm referring to convoys entering the protected
9 zones. This order set down precisely who is to carry out the inspection,
10 what kind of teams are going to inspect them, and their composition, how
11 the teams should be trained to do that, what kind of inspection they are
12 going to apply to each convoy depending on whether it was an UNHCR convoy
13 or some other humanitarian organisations convoy. And finally, least but
14 not least, how UNPROFOR convoys were to be inspected.
15 All the commands were informed about the contents of this order
16 and detailed preparations were made of teams who were to be directly
17 involved in the inspection of these convoys.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show you Exhibit
20 Q. This is an order related to the movement of UNPROFOR and UNHCR
21 convoys related to humanitarian aid convoys in Republika Srpska. This is
22 an order from the Main Staff dated 2nd of April 1993.
23 We can see that this order was sent directly to the Visegrad
24 tactical group.
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 2 of
2 this order. Page 2 in English as well, please.
3 Q. Earlier on you talked about various types of inspections for
4 UNPROFOR convoys and humanitarian aid organisations convoys. At items
5 5(a) and 5(b), do we have the definition or the description of how
6 inspections should be conducted depending on which convoys we are talking
8 A. Items 5(a) and 5(b) clearly described, and in detail, how
9 inspections of both are going to be carried out logistically of
10 humanitarian aid convoys and logistically for UNPROFOR convoys. What was
11 in practice undertaken by my command was that pursuant to this order, we
12 prepared some pocket-size manuals for each member of the team
13 participating in the inspection of the convoys, just to remind them on
14 the spot not to deviate from this order.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we now turn to page 3,
17 Q. General, please look at item 9. This is related to the
18 prohibition of the transport of certain types of materials, equipment,
19 radio and video equipment. Could you explain why video equipment was
21 A. Radio devices and video equipment were prohibited from bringing
22 in with the exception of the radio devices attached to UNPROFOR vehicles.
23 This kind of equipment was under ban and prohibited from bringing them
24 into the protected area because those were technical means that were
25 probably intended for the enemy side and their troops.
1 As for electronic and radio devices, that was the case. However,
2 video cameras were most strictly forbidden because no serious command
3 will allow its units, troop, positions, defence positions and
4 infrastructure, weapons or any other details to be filmed in the area
5 where they are carrying out their combat operations. The reason being
6 that all these footage could have been abused during combat and also
7 after combat operations have ceased.
8 Q. Before item 6, at the very top of the page in English we see that
9 it was necessary to record the quantities of fuel, and if we go back to
10 the previous page, we'll see that we are dealing here with humanitarian
11 aid convoys.
12 Was there a specific reason for this to record the quantities of
14 A. Yes, there was a reason for that. The humanitarian aid convoys
15 very often carried a larger quantity of fuel than was actually needed for
16 their vehicles. This fuel was then sold both to the army and civilians,
17 but primarily to the Muslim army in Zepa and Gorazde, and probably in
18 Srebrenica as well, but I'm now talking about Zepa and Gorazde because I
19 know these details relating to these two towns.
20 Q. We saw that this order was dated 2nd of April before the
21 establishment of protected areas, but after that, once the protected
22 areas had been established did you receive further orders related to the
23 passage of convoys?
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D804,
1 Q. We have an order dated 10 December 1993. I'd like you to turn to
2 item 3.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. On the checkpoints that you had in your area of responsibility,
5 did you comply with that order?
6 A. As much as was possible, and it is true that these inspection
7 teams who also monitored the movement of UNPROFOR were made up of the
8 best officers of the Army of Republika Srpska.
9 Q. Please have a look at item 4 now. That's on the next page in the
10 English version of the document. I'm interested in what we see at the
11 very end where it says that the content of checks are defined by two
12 orders from August 1993?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When a convoy arrived at a checkpoint, would the officers who
15 were there at the checkpoint, would they know exactly how they were about
16 to proceed with this convoy?
17 A. All members of the inspection teams were thoroughly trained
18 beforehand to carry out the task in general, and for each convoy they
19 would receive specific orders as well from the Main Staff and the
20 superior command, the command of the Drina Corps. We regularly received
21 a 24-hour advance notice of the arrival of the convoys specifying the
22 exact time of their entering the area of responsibility of a specific
23 command or unit, and what is the composition of that convoy. In that
24 way, we were able to prepare ourselves way ahead.
25 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I had like to show you Exhibit
2 Q. This is information coming from the Main Staff related to the
3 passage of convoys. This document bears the same date as the previous
5 A. This is precisely a notice that each unit through whose zone the
6 convoy was supposed to pass would receive.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we have page 3 in English,
8 and page 2, the bottom of page 2 in B/C/S, please.
9 Q. If you look at this very last sentence, "Carry out a detailed
10 check..." and so on and so forth. Would the orders mentioned earlier,
11 the orders dating back to August 1993, would these orders apply to this
13 A. Yes, both are to this specific convoy and to any other convoy
14 about which there was suspicion of its carrying something that was not
15 contained in the declaration or the announcement of the movement.
16 Q. If you now turn to the paragraph that is just before this last
17 sentence. The paragraph that comes just before this last sentence, the
18 bottom of page 2 in English. I believe that you've already mentioned
19 this, but have you encountered similar situations?
20 A. Several times during checks of humanitarian aid convoys, we
21 encountered a situation that in the original package of the declared
22 goods, some other items were packed. There were instances in which
23 cameras and still cameras were hidden, and once or twice the original
24 packaging containing food we also found some ammunition.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm very sorry, could
1 we stop now, please.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Mr. Masal, we have to stop today here
3 and we will continue on Monday. Before you leave this courtroom,
4 however, I need to advise you that one of our rules that you need to
5 observe in the strictest manner is that between now and when you resume
6 your testimony on Monday, you do not communicate with anyone on the
7 subject matter of your testimony. When I say you must not communicate
8 with anyone, it means either you or if anyone tries to contact you and
9 communicate with you on this subject matter. Have I made myself
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, completely.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we stand adjourned until Monday,
13 9.00 in the morning. Thank you.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.23 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st of December
16 2008, at 9.00 a.m.