081203IT

Page 29186

1 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely, Your Honours. That's why I was on my

2 feet. It's 6DP3905.

3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Josse. Is there any objection from

4 any parties? Mr. Thayer?

5 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.

6 MS. FAUVEAU: No.

7 JUDGE KWON: So that's admitted as well.

8 Shall we bring in the witness, Mr. Babic.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 WITNESS: VOJISLAV BABIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Babic. Please make yourself

13 comfortable.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Petrusic, please continue.

16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

17 Examination by Mr. Petrusic: [Continued]

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Babic. We will proceed with

19 your evidence today. Yesterday you spoke about the 67th Communications

20 Regiment. In addition to the 67th Regiment, in the establishment

21 structure of the Main Staff was there any other organ that dealt with

22 communications?

23 A. In the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska there was the

24 communications organ that consisted of its chief and a desk officer. The

25 chief was the chief of communications, Colonel Prole, Radomir Prole, and

Page 29187

1 the desk officer in the communications organ for encryption was

2 Lieutenant Colonel Milisav Radakovic.

3 Q. What was the role of that organ, please?

4 A. The role of the communications organ was to plan all necessary

5 communications for command and control for informing and reporting for

6 airspace surveillance and reporting to the Main Staff of the army of

7 Republika Srpska.

8 Q. Mr. Babic, the unit in which you were the Chief of Staff, which

9 was the 67th Regiment, did it submit combat reports, and if it did, who

10 did it submit to?

11 A. We submitted regular reports when the war started. And sometime

12 up to mid-1993, we submit written reports, and as of that time onwards

13 the reports were oral. We submitted reports to the deputy chief of the

14 Main Staff at first to the chief of the Main Staff, and later on to the

15 operations department in the operations centre where General Miletic was

16 at the time. At that time, he was colonel.

17 Q. Let's clarify one thing. In the initial period of time who did

18 you report to?

19 A. Our written reports were submitted -- or, rather, brought

20 directly to the operations centre, and later on it was ordered for these

21 reports to be submitted orally; and we all reported orally to the Chief

22 of Staff, and after that the Chief of Staff ordered us to report directly

23 to the operations centre where General Miletic was and spent most of his

24 time.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, could --

Page 29188

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have one clarification? When he first

3 answered that the translation I got was that the oral report went to the

4 deputy chief of the Main Staff, then the chief of the Main Staff, and

5 then to the operations department; and I don't know if that's what that

6 is or that's a translation issue.

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Babic, you heard the comments of Mr. McCloskey.

8 Could you clarify your answer.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since we are talking

10 about a long period of time over the year 1993, obviously there were some

11 changes in the way we submitted our reports. In the initial period, we

12 submitted written reports. That was our common practice. And since the

13 unit was in contact with the Main Staff, i.e., shared the same area of

14 some 100 metres, the regiment command was at a hundred -- a hundred

15 metres distance, it was regulated after that not to issue written reports

16 but, rather, to submit them orally.

17 At first the situation in the unit was more or less well known.

18 The chief of the Main Staff ordered us to convey our oral reports

19 directly to the operations centre. I'm talking about the year 1993 when

20 things started. The following year, in 1994, the reports were submit

21 orally in the operations centre, and this is where General Miletic spent

22 most of his time.

23 JUDGE KWON: So you first reported to the chief of Main Staff,

24 and later you reported to the operations centre orally?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 29189

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Petrusic, please continue.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. And just one more question, please. Who was the chief of the

4 Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska throughout all that time?

5 A. Throughout all that time the chief of the Main Staff of the army

6 of Republika Srpska was General Manojlo Milovanovic.

7 Q. Mr. Babic, what types of communications means were used in the

8 Main Staff at the time?

9 A. The chief of communications issued a plan of communications which

10 encompassed radio relay communications, wire connections, telephone

11 lines, coded teleprinter communications. We also used PTT lines, and

12 radio communication was a fallback position.

13 Q. When you say that radio communication was a fallback position,

14 that it was on stand-by, what do you mean?

15 A. I mean that they were up and running. They were checked, and

16 they were checked regularly, but they were not used by the command of the

17 Main Staff for their regular communication.

18 Q. Which devices were used in the territory of what we call

19 Veliki Zep?

20 A. We used radio relay communications means. Those were SMC 1306B.

21 The radio relay device RRU 9B and FM 200. Also, a radio relay device RRU

22 800, and a radio relay device RRU 1.

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] May the Court please produce P183.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number.

25 JUDGE KWON: If you could repeat the number, please.

Page 29190

1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] P183.

2 Q. Mr. Babic, on the screen, which is on your right-hand side, you

3 will shortly see a document. I would kindly ask you to look at it

4 carefully and read it, and then I'll have some questions for you based on

5 that document on the screen.

6 Tell me when you are done reading.

7 A. Yes, I'm done.

8 Q. Tell me, please, on the 14th of July -- or, rather, in mid-July

9 1995, were you at the Main Staff?

10 A. Yes, I was. I was in my unit.

11 Q. Do you know that this type of device that is mentioned in the

12 document, which is radio device 2/2 K and KZU-63. Was used at the Main

13 Staff at that time?

14 A. No. We did not establish this type of communication. My

15 regiment did not, but it had on its strength the devices that are

16 mentioned in the document 2/2 K and KZU-63.

17 Q. In addition to establishing telephone lines, i.e., communication

18 lines in the Main Staff, the 67th Communications Regiment, i.e., the

19 signals branch, was also dealing with the protection of written texts or

20 written communication. You said that.

21 In your organisational establishment, as a unit of the Main Staff

22 together with the signals branch, did you deal with these tasks?

23 A. We established a system of communications which provided, to a

24 certain extent, for the protection of spoken information. That

25 protection was provided to the level of the commands of the immediately

Page 29191

1 subordinated units, i.e., corps commands.

2 In addition to the protection of oral confirmation, the regiment

3 also developed a system of protection of written information. The

4 Communications Regiment had a centre with a -- an encryption centre which

5 dealt with that.

6 Q. Mr. Babic, you still have the document on the screen?

7 A. Yes, I have.

8 Q. From the aspect of encryption and dispatching telegrams, the

9 document that you see in front of you, would that reflect the actual

10 situation?

11 A. This document in my view does not reflect the actual situation

12 for several reasons. It is not a fair representation of the situation.

13 The reasons that I'm -- that I have in mind are of technical nature.

14 First of all, it could not have been type on a teleprinter

15 because it is -- the layout is not correct.

16 Second of all, the document is not signed, which means that it

17 was not transmitted through the communications lines that existed in the

18 system of communication -- communications of the Main Staff that were

19 serviced by the Communications Regiment.

20 Q. In order for a document to be dispatched and received properly,

21 is there anything else that this document should contain? Please wait

22 until I finish my question.

23 A. Every document that is received or dispatched through the

24 technical means of communication has to have a stamp denoting the time

25 when it was received. This is the establishment stamp of the operator

Page 29192

1 that received it, and every document has to be registered at the

2 encryption centre and then in the files of the command. And that's why

3 I'm saying that this document is irregular. Its contents are what they

4 are, but it looks irregular to me.

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

6 Exhibit P192.

7 Q. Mr. Babic, would you please look at this document. You don't

8 have to go into the substance. Just look at the heading and look at the

9 signature block. Bottom right. As well as the handwritten addition,

10 bottom left, where it says: "Transmitted, 1510, 13 July 1995."

11 Also, would you please, from the viewpoint of your

12 specialisation, tell us whether this communication had been transmitted

13 and received and if there is any proof that it had been received at any

14 of the addresses indicated.

15 A. This document, like the previous one, is not certified by the

16 signature and the stamp of the senior officer who was supposed to have

17 written it judging by the contents.

18 Second, this document could not have been transmitted via means

19 of communications because, again, there is no stamp of the station that

20 had received it, and it had not been registered by that station. It's

21 still probably in the register of the Main Staff.

22 This is written on a typewriter. We did not have typewriters.

23 We had teletypes that produce a different kind of writing.

24 Q. Mr. Babic, speaking of telegrams, on which side should the

25 signature be?

Page 29193

1 A. If the document is transmitted by teletype, then the signature of

2 the person who issues the order or approves the document is on the left,

3 always on the left.

4 Q. We will not be needing this document any more.

5 Mr. Babic, can you tell us about Crna Rijeka? Where was the

6 command located?

7 A. You mean the regiment command?

8 Q. Where was the command of the Main Staff?

9 A. The command of the Main Staff was located in prefab buildings,

10 and the commander of the Main Staff spent most of his time in the --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat. Did he say "villa"?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The command of the Main Staff,

13 depending on the situation and the level of danger as indicated by threat

14 alerts, would move to the underground part of the installation where

15 there were working premises, and from that underground space would

16 continue in their tasks. The logistics of the Main Staff was in

17 Han Pijesak, in Gora hotel. Next to the logistics command post there was

18 the administration for personnel.

19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Babic, the interpreters couldn't

20 hear you well. Did you refer to a villa as the place the commander of

21 the Main Staff spent most of his time?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Petrusic.

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. We need one more clarification. Speaking, Mr. Babic, of --

Page 29194

1 perhaps I was not precise enough in my question. When I say "command," I

2 mean the principal command post. Did your answer also refer to the main

3 command post, the basic command post?

4 A. Yes. The basic command post was in Crna Rijeka, and that's where

5 the command of the Main Staff was. This description that I gave is just

6 that in Han Pijesak there was a logistics command post where the

7 logistics organ was together with the sector for ORMO and personnel

8 affairs.

9 Q. These prefab buildings and the underground space, were they

10 connected by a single communications system?

11 A. They are separated by a distance of 900 metres, and this entire

12 area of Crna Rijeka and the installations within were connected by an

13 underground cable; and it was very simple and easy to adjust the

14 communications system to various requirements. That's why while the

15 command was in the prefab buildings they enjoyed the communications they

16 needed for their work, and in case the danger, when they moved to the

17 underground space, these same communications became available from the

18 underground premises. Everyone had their own offices underground.

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Petrusic, please put a pause between the answer

20 and your question. So please wait till the translation is completed.

21 Can I draw your attention to the line 3 of page 12. You started

22 your question, so I couldn't hear that well, but I don't know what it

23 meant, the logistic organ was together with the sector for ORMO and

24 personnel affairs? If you could clarify that with the witness.

25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

Page 29195

1 Q. Mr. Babic, you were talking about the command post. Tell us,

2 please, what organs of the command were housed in that logistics command

3 post?

4 A. At the logistics command post there was the logistics sector and

5 the sector for organisational mobilisation and personnel affairs.

6 Q. I believe this is the clarification we need. Tell us, is this

7 the basic command post? In fact, were the basic command post and the

8 logistics command post connected by a single system of communications?

9 A. Yes, they were, and they were able to cooperate, first of all,

10 within the command of the Main Staff and down to various units depending

11 on the scope and type of their tasks.

12 Q. Tell us, what type of communication linked these two

13 installations?

14 A. Telephone and teletype communications was establish between these

15 two installations through radio relay and wire external routes, and we

16 also use PTT communications. Radio relay external lines included an axis

17 from Veliki Zep to Han Pijesak, and wire communications meant an

18 underground cable linking the barracks in Han Pijesak with installations

19 in Crna Rijeka.

20 Q. Mr. Babic, do you know if the Main Staff set up forward command

21 posts?

22 A. Yes. The Main Staff set up forward command posts throughout the

23 war.

24 Q. Can you tell us what is the role of the organs of the

25 communications regiment and the communications regiment itself in the

Page 29196

1 setting up of these forward command posts?

2 A. I have to go back to my previous explanation. The regiment was

3 supposed to plan and set up --

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sure there were many, many forward command

7 posts throughout this war, and I -- procedures change. If we could focus

8 it on the time-frame. I think he's going for the Krajina and the -- and

9 the, you know, 1995, no problem, but the entire war doesn't -- I don't

10 think it help us, and unless he can say it's exactly the same for every

11 IKM.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Petrusic, do you have any comment or -- you can

13 ask generally, or you can concentrate on specific command posts.

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] My question was of general nature,

15 and for the time being it was not linked to any particular period of

16 time.

17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please proceed.

18 Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's my objection. 1992 was very different

20 than 1995, and I don't think that the proper in a general -- is helpful,

21 and its probative value is outweighed by its -- the time and the

22 non-relevance of it.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Petrusic, can we hear the situation in 1995.

25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

Page 29197

1 Q. Mr. Babic, do you know whether your unit or communications organ

2 participate in 1994 or 1995 in the establishment of communications at the

3 forward command post of the Main Staff?

4 A. No. The Communications Regiment was not involved with its

5 equipment, because it did not participate in the setting up of any

6 communications for forward command posts of the Main Staff. However, the

7 chief of communications, Colonel Prole, organised these things through

8 the equipment and resources of communications units which provided

9 communications for the requirements of the corps.

10 In that period, in 1995, the situation in the west, in Drvar, the

11 Communications Regiment provide the equipment and the personnel at the

12 forward command post in Drvar. That means equipment and personnel. It

13 was a smaller number of personnel, people who operated encrypting

14 stations. I don't know of any other involvement of the communications

15 regiment, and I don't think there was any.

16 Q. Mr. Babic, when such a forward command post is being set up and

17 when communications are organised at this forward command post, are such

18 communications integrated with the Main Staff?

19 A. It all depends on the situation. In this particular case, as I

20 explained, there were direct communications with the for command post.

21 There was a direct telephone line, and the command line towards the Main

22 Staff.

23 In some other cases it was possible to organise it in a different

24 way, namely that from the forward command post communications be

25 established towards the Main Staff through the corps command, wherein the

Page 29198

1 corps commander would be the intermediary; whereas teletype

2 communications could work in such a way that the corps station would take

3 over documents and work to service the Main Staff.

4 Q. Mr. Babic, in 1995 did you used to see General Miletic?

5 A. Yes. I saw General Miletic in 1994 and in 1995 regularly. Not

6 only him, other senior officers as well, almost on a daily basis or

7 several times a day.

8 Q. How often would you see him in July 1995?

9 A. Well, I -- the month of July was generally a month where many

10 officers were away on various missions, but I did see him.

11 Q. Mr. Babic, when you gave us your personal details, you said you

12 were born on the 7th of July, 1950.

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Do you recall where you were on the 7th of July, 1995?

15 A. On the 7th of July, 1995, I was in Crna Rijeka, in my unit

16 performing my regular duties.

17 Q. Do you recall if you saw General Miletic then? Did you have a

18 meeting perhaps?

19 A. No. On that day I did not see General Miletic. The

20 circumstances were such that I believe he wasn't even there on that day.

21 It was my birthday. Some of my officers got hang of it and said that I

22 should buy a round of drinks because its my birthday, and people got

23 closer to each other during the war. That's one of the effects of the

24 war, and the smallest excuse was enough for a celebration, and it was my

25 intention that day to invite all the officers who were working in the

Page 29199

1 underground facility, because they sort of hinted that morning they would

2 appreciate that. I thought I would offer them a round of drinks, and we

3 indeed gathered. And since I was on good terms with General Miletic, and

4 since air alerts were very frequent in those days, he spent a lot of time

5 underground, almost all of the time. So I went down to his office and

6 found there a few officers from the Main Staff. I believe there was

7 Colonel Trkulja and this man Micanovic. Dragan Micanovic, who we called

8 Mico, the cartographer, and Major Slobodan Mandic [as interpreted].

9 I asked after General Miletic, because I wanted to invite him,

10 but I was told that he had gone to Belgrade. I remember that distinctly.

11 And then I believe Mandic came with me because he was together with us in

12 that area where we gathered. We sat down, had a chat. And I remember

13 clearly that General Miletic was not there on that day.

14 Q. Just one correction, please. Line 17, line 2, instead of

15 Slobodan Mandic, it should be read Slobodan Mamlic.

16 Mr. Babic, did you say -- or did you mention Major Mamlic as the

17 person present there?

18 A. I mentioned -- I believe I mentioned Slobodan Mamlic, and this is

19 who I had in mind, as a matter of fact.

20 Q. At your birthday party were there any other people present?

21 A. Those were mostly officers and civilians who enjoyed the status

22 of civilians and officers. The reason for that was different. I don't

23 know whether at that moment they were civilians or officers, but that was

24 that. I said that those were the most experienced and longest-serving

25 personnel. Most of them were at the facility even before the Main Staff

Page 29200

1 arrived. I remember that Goran Bastak was also there. He died soon

2 after the end of the war. Blagoje Obazovic was also there, as well as

3 Zarko Tanasic. Marijan Jerot was one of the people who were there, and

4 some others whom I can't remember at the moment, but there were a dozen

5 or so people, I'm sure.

6 Q. Mr. Babic, for the time being I don't have any more questions for

7 you. Mr. --

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this brings my

9 examination-in-chief to an end.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

11 Will there be any cross from any other Defence team?

12 I think it's your turn, Mr. McCloskey, if you can manage without

13 the assistance of Mr. Vanderpuye.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I don't think we'll be getting into

15 too many frequencies and other issues.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Babic. My name's Peter McCloskey. I represent

18 the Prosecution, and welcome.

19 A. Good morning. Thank you.

20 Q. You've just spoken of, well, the 7th of July, 1995, like it was

21 yesterday. Where was your party in relation to the operations room that

22 General Miletic usually worked?

23 A. Shall I explain?

24 Q. I don't need a big explanation. Is it in the same building? It

25 was just not clear to me. Or was it some place else?

Page 29201

1 A. It was an underground facility.

2 Q. My understanding is your party was in the underground facility.

3 We know the OPs room was in the underground facility. Was your party in

4 the OPs room or some place close by?

5 A. Well, no, no. The personnel that was there, I -- the

6 communications centre was always manned. It was in the underground

7 facility. Those were my people, my personnel, and whenever we had a

8 party or a do, we would stage those in the corridor of the underground

9 facility.

10 As you enter the facility and as you pass through the area from

11 which doors lead to the maintenance rooms, there's a corridor and at the

12 very entrance to the corridor there is a wider space, some four metres

13 wide if not more; and there is enough room to sit down, on the one hand,

14 and on the other hand that's how it was regulated. If there was a do in

15 that area we were not a hindrance to anybody. We did not disturb

16 anybody.

17 In the other part there was this communications centre, and in

18 the area where the OPs centre and other offices of the organs of the Main

19 Staff were that was on the other side, and members of the Communications

20 Regiment did not need to go into that area. So what I'm saying is that

21 we held our party at the very entrance into the working part of the

22 facility, in the corridor.

23 Q. Did the operations centre, Miletic's operation centre, have

24 communication equipment in it?

25 A. Yes. All the communications lines with OPs centres of the

Page 29202

1 subordinated units ended there, and all the other numbers from the

2 switchboard were transferred into the OPs centre, and there were also

3 lines from the OPs centre into the prefabricated objects and between the

4 OPs centres of various units.

5 Q. Okay. And who from the 69th was on duty in the OPs centre

6 looking after that equipment?

7 A. I'm afraid I did not understand your question. You mean who

8 maintained the equipment?

9 Q. Was there anybody stationed with that equipment to help the OPs

10 people in communicating? Very simple question.

11 A. No, there was nobody. Our obligation was to check the status of

12 the communication lines daily, and nobody serviced the communications

13 means in the OPs centre, nobody from the regiment that is. It was the

14 duty of the operations officer who was on duty that day.

15 Q. And who was that on the 7th?

16 A. On the 7th I believe that it was Colonel Trkulja,

17 Nedeljko Trkulja.

18 Q. And office in charge at Crna Rijeka? Who was the top officers in

19 Crna Rijeka that day, the 7th?

20 A. You mean who was standing in for the commander of the Main Staff

21 or who was deputising for him.

22 Q. Who was the most high-ranking senior officer at Crna Rijeka on

23 July 7th?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. Was Mladic there?

Page 29203

1 A. I don't remember. I think -- it was possible that he was, but I

2 can't remember.

3 Q. Was Milovanovic there?

4 A. General Milovanovic was not there. Towards the end of 1994 --

5 or, rather, beginning of --

6 Q. We know all about that, sir. We know he went over to the

7 Krajina. It was a simple question. Just try to answer my question. You

8 can always explain it, but we know that he spent a lot of time in the

9 Krajina then.

10 Okay. How about General Gvero? Was there he on the 7th?

11 A. I don't think so. General Gvero was somewhere. He was absent.

12 Q. I'm sure General Gvero was somewhere. Where do you think he was?

13 A. You know, I did not have any immediate dealings with those

14 officers, so I wouldn't know really.

15 Q. So you don't know who was in charge that day at Crna Rijeka.

16 A. I don't know, sir. If we're talking about the Communications

17 Regiment, I can tell you, and you're talking to me about the General

18 Staff of which I didn't know much. I didn't have much insight into their

19 dealings, their whereabouts, their movements.

20 Q. You say Glavni Staff. You didn't have much dealings with the

21 Main Staff I take it?

22 A. Yes, the Main Staff.

23 Q. Well, that's my point. Do you know what was going on on July

24 7th, 1995, at Crna Rijeka? Tell us what was going on in the area of --

25 between Zeleni Jadar and Srebrenica and Podravanje?

Page 29204

1 A. I don't know what was going on in -- in that area, but I know

2 that immediately before that date, or immediately before those days there

3 was something constantly happening in that area. Something was on all

4 the time. At least that's the kind of information that reached us. The

5 information spoke about military provocations, actions, by --

6 Q. Sir, we know there was a war on, so that's not my question. Do

7 you recall the attack on Crna Rijeka itself that month? I think people

8 might have even been killed.

9 A. Yes. Yes, I remember the Communications Regiment was involved in

10 providing security to the units on its strength and the parts of the Main

11 Staff. An attack was indeed carried out, and two soldiers were killed in

12 the communications regiment and one officer was wounded. That was on the

13 day that I will always remember, and the previous --

14 Q. Sure, that -- that was conducted by Srebrenica or Zepa Muslims,

15 wasn't it, out of the enclaves?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So surely you as the Chief of Staff, the communications officer,

18 knew that on the 6th of July the Drina Corps, including Vinko Pandurevic,

19 who I think you probably should recognise, and his troops had begun the

20 attack on Srebrenica. His troops were in those woods fighting and dying,

21 and you would have known about it on the 7th of July, wouldn't you?

22 A. No, I didn't. I didn't know about that.

23 Q. So you and your fellow officers at the bunker are drinking

24 slivovitz on 7 July. Those guys are in the woods fighting, you don't

25 know anything about it, but you remember who was at your birthday party.

Page 29205

1 Is that what you're testifying to today?

2 A. What I'm saying is that I didn't know that there was fighting

3 going on. Nobody informed me. I was not informed. And as for our

4 little do, I don't think it was any kind of celebration. There were even

5 more difficult situations. During the war I myself had gone through a

6 number of things, but there was always a way to let the steam, to -- to

7 relax just a little in order to overcome other, bigger problems.

8 Q. Why didn't you have the party outside, away from Crna Rijeka a

9 little bit, out of the bomb sights, after work?

10 A. First of all, that was in the evening hours after all daily

11 activities. Second of all, there were very common air attack alerts

12 sounded at the time. And again, this was not a celebration, and I

13 underline that. This was initiated by others, and since I wanted to

14 respect people's will and to support this feeling of camaraderie, I

15 really don't see why this should be considered as something out of the

16 ordinary.

17 Q. Well, we heard about a party that was on the 11th of July that

18 was outside and somewhere around Han Pijesak at somebody's house. Did

19 you get invite to that one?

20 A. I don't remember any such party. Could you maybe jog my memory

21 by providing some more details? As far as I can remember, on that day

22 there was no party in Han Pijesak, or at least I can tell you that I did

23 not attend any such party.

24 Q. Well, did your people attend it, anybody from your unit?

25 A. No, as far as I know.

Page 29206

1 Q. You know someone from your unit's testified here; right?

2 A. From my unit? Yes. There was --

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Babic.

4 Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This is a cross-examination, I

6 admit, but there is no foundation for the last question, or at least my

7 learned friend did not lay any foundation to put that question to the

8 witness.

9 JUDGE KWON: I think he was about to give some reference.

10 Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I -- basically when I say his

12 unit, I mean the 67th unit.

13 Q. Did you know someone that testified here from that unit recently?

14 JUDGE KWON: Can you answer the question, Mr. Babic? Do you know

15 that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know, no.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY:

18 Q. Do you know Velo Pajic?

19 A. I know Velo Pajic. He was an officer and a platoon commander in

20 charge of UNHF lines, and he spent all the time throughout the war and

21 after the war in the underground facilities of the communications centre.

22 Q. And you asked me to give you some information to jog your memory.

23 When did you first start to jog your memory about July 7th and your

24 birthday party some 13 years ago?

25 A. After that period, I continued working for some time, and then I

Page 29207

1 was pensioned off and I started doing other things. At the beginning of

2 1997, I got a telephone call from Mr. Petrusic. He introduced himself as

3 a member of General Miletic's Defence team. That's when he told me that

4 he wanted to talk to me about the relevant period. I agreed to talk to

5 him.

6 We met in Belgrade, in his office, at the beginning of 19 -- or,

7 rather, 2007. I apologise. I must have misspoken before. I must have

8 said 1997. And then we spoke about the role of the 67th Communications

9 Regiment in providing communications lines. We spoke about his position

10 in the Main Staff, about command, about my relationship with

11 General Miletic and how much I knew him.

12 This is what we discussed in very broad terms. And then he asked

13 me whether I would be willing to testify as a Defence witness for

14 General Miletic and I said yes. And then he said, "Very well. We shall

15 see about that, and we will be in touch."

16 After some time Mr. Petrusic called me again, and that was

17 sometime in March earlier this year, and he asked me whether I would

18 still be willing to testify as I said I would. I repeated that I was

19 willing to testify. He instructed me to prepare documents, and the

20 documents in question would be my passport with a valid visa and a copy

21 of my passport so that the visa could be issued to me.

22 I agreed to that. At the time my passport was about to expire,

23 so I had to renew it. I had to obtain a new passport, which I did. And

24 then the following time he called me was towards the end of September or

25 perhaps the beginning of October, again earlier this year, and we made

Page 29208

1 arrangements to meet so that he could take the documents from me and to

2 discuss some more things. And since I hail from Bosanska Dubica and I

3 reside with my parents and Mr. Petrusic is not familiar with the area,

4 and since I've retired I have been mostly engaged in --

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. -- farming, I have an orchard --

7 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Babic. I -- that covers that

8 question.

9 Can you tell me when you first of your three meetings that you

10 describe with the Defence, and that's completely normal, when did you

11 first tell him that you remembered that 13 years ago that General Miletic

12 didn't come to your birthday drinks in the bunker?

13 A. During the last conversation we had, as I handed over my passport

14 and a copy of it to Mr. Petrusic, he looked at the documents and he

15 spotted my date of birth, I suppose, and then he said, "You were born on

16 the 7th of July, 1950?" And I said, "Yes, I was." And then he asked me,

17 "Do you remember where General Miletic was on the 7th of July, 1995?" I

18 ponder upon the question, and then I realised that I remember, and I

19 shared with him the story that I shared with everybody else today in the

20 courtroom.

21 Q. And how long did you ponder before -- before you realised that he

22 wasn't at your drinks?

23 A. I'm afraid I did not understand you. You're asking me how much

24 time did I need to remember that I had invited people to share a round of

25 drinks with me? I did not understand.

Page 29209

1 Q. When Mr. Petrusic pointed out the birthday and asked you about

2 Miletic, how long did it take you before you told him that story that you

3 just told us? I mean, did you remember that day, or did you have to

4 think about it overnight, or did you just respond to him shortly after

5 because it was such a -- so clear in your mind? Simple question.

6 A. Well, you -- you can probably see that it -- it does take me some

7 time to remember stuff that I need time to answer your questions. I

8 could not answer him immediately, but after a certain while I told him

9 that I'd heard that he wasn't there, and then I told Mr. Petrusic all

10 about the reasons that I was aware of for General Miletic not being

11 around on that day.

12 Q. My question is back in September, end of September, how long was

13 that certain while? How long did it take you before you told him the

14 story? If you remember.

15 A. Well, during that same conversation. Maybe ten minutes. In any

16 case, it didn't take me that long.

17 JUDGE KWON: If this is convenient.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: One last question.

19 JUDGE KWON: One last question before the break.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY:

21 Q. Sir, it's the Prosecution's position that it's impossible.

22 Nobody can go back 13 years in a manner of minutes and remember what

23 somebody told them about whether or not someone was at a party. That

24 just can't be done. Can you explain it?

25 A. Well, I am telling you that I do remember. And not only that, I

Page 29210

1 remember some other details. Some not as clearly, some clearly enough.

2 This is about my birthday, which does not happen every day, does it.

3 It's a very specific case. One's birthday is but once in a year. And

4 those are the things that I can remember almost immediately and with

5 clarity.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll break for 25 minutes.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

11 Q. I want to go back to page 5, line 10, and just read you what you

12 said to us and just make sure about it. You said that:

13 "We submitted regular reports when the war started, and sometime

14 up to mid-1993 we submitted written reports, and as the time onwards

15 reports were oral. We submitted reports to the deputy chief of the Main

16 Staff at first, to the chief of the Main Staff, and later on to the

17 operations department in the operations centre where General Miletic was

18 at the time."

19 So, Mr. Babic, is it correct that you first submitted reports to

20 the deputy chief of the Main Staff, and then to the chief of the Main

21 Staff, and then later on to the operations department?

22 A. In the initial period written reports were submitted, and they

23 were addressed to the Main Staff, but they probably ended up in the

24 operations centre. After that, the deputy chief of the Main Staff

25 ordered that verbal reports be made, and we made them to the Chief of

Page 29211

1 Staff. And later still, reports were turned over to the operations

2 centre where General Miletic was, and they were still verbal.

3 Q. Who --

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Just a second. There seems to be some

5 translation issue.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we have him take off his earphones, please?

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Babic, do you understand some English?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE KWON: Can I -- I can clarify with him directly. What did

10 you mean when you said deputy chief of Main Staff, Mr. Babic?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Deputy commander of the Main Staff

12 and the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff, which is the same person, and

13 of course Milovanovic.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Did that clarify your concern? Thank

15 you.

16 Let's proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY:

18 Q. Sir, you said deputy -- did you say deputy chief the first time

19 and you left out deputy commander, didn't you?

20 A. I mean the deputy commander and the Chief of Staff of the Main

21 Staff.

22 Q. So when you -- but you did say deputy chief of the Main Staff.

23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it really is

25 not fair to the witness, because this is --

Page 29212

1 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't really hear the end.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's really a question of

3 interpretation.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, what he meant is one thing and what he said is

5 another. So I think the question is quite fair. So let the witness

6 answer the question.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY:

8 Q. Sir, one more time --

9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'll hear once again Ms. Fauveau

10 Ivanovic.

11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I don't mind for the witness to

12 answer the question, but he never use these words.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I'm sure he'll say that now, but that was

14 of course was the issue that I was going to ask.

15 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed. Ask the question and let's hear

16 what the witness is going to say.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY:

18 Q. Sir, trying to ignore what you just heard Ms. Fauveau say, did

19 you say "deputy Chief of Staff of the Main Staff" by mistake, perhaps?

20 A. It was a mistake. Let me clarify.

21 Q. Wait a minute. Before you clarify, can you just tell us. So you

22 did say deputy Chief of Staff and it's a mistake, and you want to explain

23 your mistake; is that correct?

24 A. Correct. Let me explain.

25 Q. Please do.

Page 29213

1 A. The deputy --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness start again, please.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Babic, if you could start again. The witness --

4 the interpreters missed the first part of your answer.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The deputy commander of the Main

6 Staff and the chief of the Main Staff is one and the same person,

7 General Milovanovic. His duty was transferred onto the units that were

8 directly tied to the Main Staff, and among those units was also the

9 Communications Regiment, i.e., the 67th Communications Regiment, my unit.

10 Along the command line we were tied to him, and we reported to him

11 orally. And as for the written reports, I have already explained

12 previously how this was done.

13 In the second half of that period that same person ordered us to

14 send reports or hand over reports at the operations centre where

15 General Miletic stayed or spent quite a lot of time because his office

16 was there.

17 Q. Okay. When General Milovanovic was in Belgrade and out of touch,

18 who would you have given your reports to?

19 A. When General Milovanovic was not available at the command post

20 for whatever reason, we made our reports to General Miletic because he

21 was the one replacing him.

22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes. Do you still have an

23 objection, Mr. Petrusic?

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] If these question -- questions are

25 to continue, maybe the Prosecutor can define the time-frame.

Page 29214

1 JUDGE KWON: I thought it was a hypothetical question.

2 Do you have comments?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was going off at my earlier objection when we

4 got into 1995, and I was assuming it was 1995.

5 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's proceed.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

7 Q. So was one thing -- one way to call General Miletic when he

8 was -- when he was replacing Milovanovic, was he the deputy Chief of

9 Staff then?

10 A. No. We didn't call him deputy Chief of Staff, because he did not

11 hold that office, but in the absence of General Milovanovic he stood in

12 for him as far as these issues were concerned. He was the senior officer

13 to whom these reports were made.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you talked about two documents. One is

15 P183. That's this 14 July -- if we could bring that one up, the 14th of

16 July document by Tolimir asking for certain kinds of radios and

17 communication. And you had some kind of problems with this. Did you ask

18 or did the Defence offer to show you the original of that document?

19 A. No, I did not see the original. I can see this one is a copy.

20 Q. Okay. Well, let me show you an original, and let me tell you

21 that it came from a collection given to us by Republika Srpska

22 authorities called the -- referred to as the Drina Corps collection, and

23 it came in a packet with a cardboard thing on top.

24 Sir, if you could just look at me for one second so I can show

25 you this. Sorry, I've divided your attention. That's my fault. But let

Page 29215

1 me show you.

2 This came out of a packet of stuff from this pig collection that

3 had this -- it says "telegram," and you can see what it says, and in it

4 were a whole bunch of documents in the same size and looks very similar,

5 and you can see the original ink -- sorry, I'll show you the original ink

6 on another one. Now if you could just take a look at that one.

7 A. I have listened to you carefully, and I followed the document,

8 not the file you were showing me that I can. This is a bit of a

9 different situation. However, even here the stamp and seal are missing

10 of the station that received it and the encrypting officer who worked on

11 it. We can't see whether this telegram was transmitted or received.

12 This telegram, if received, then I accept that it normally doesn't have a

13 signature; but if it was transmitted, then it should have a signature and

14 a stamp.

15 Q. Sir, does this look like a typewriter to you or a teleprinter or

16 something else based on your experience?

17 A. I haven't heard the first part of the question.

18 Q. Okay. Does this look like type from a typewriter, teleprinter,

19 or something else?

20 A. This was written on a teleprinter, RTL 100. That's how it's

21 called. And that is the machine used in communications.

22 Q. Okay. And you can see up in the right-hand corner where it's --

23 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, can you put the original on the

24 ELMO?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

Page 29216

1 Q. Sir, could you hand that to the usher. Thanks. And if we

2 could -- and for the -- sir, if you look in the upper right-hand corner

3 you can tell that's the original in ink; right? If you look at the

4 actual document.

5 A. Yes. It's the original ink for the signature.

6 Q. Right. And you can -- you can see that it says "sent" there;

7 right?

8 A. It says "sent," "transmitted." However, every station had a

9 stamp envisaged by establishment for that station, and that stamp has

10 typed out various times and rubrics for which data had to be enter and a

11 signature block. This is not the way it's done. It's not how things are

12 done at teleprinter stations and stations for transmission and receipt of

13 this sort of information.

14 Q. Well, I'll help you out a little bit, sir. You wouldn't expect a

15 received stamp on this because this was the document that was sent;

16 right? If we just base on what is said on the document.

17 A. If it was sent, then it should have a stamp and a signature in

18 the lower part, the bottom left part. There should be a signature of the

19 officer who drafted the document. At the stop we see command of the 1st

20 Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, and the indication below is Assistant

21 Commander Major-General Zdravko Tolimir, and the two don't match. If

22 this officer indicated below is the one who drafted the document, he

23 should have signed it, and the signature doesn't go without a stamp.

24 There should be a stamp here.

25 Q. I agree with you, there should be. And I can help you out a

Page 29217

1 little bit by telling you that Danko Gojkovic -- have you heard of

2 Danko Gojkovic?

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. Well, he was a Coms guy for the Rogatica Brigade, and he's

5 testified here and said he didn't have a stamp. Sometimes soldiers don't

6 have everything they need; right?

7 A. That's possible, but in that case a written report cannot be

8 submitted. It's not the regulation. The encryption teleprinter operator

9 should not send, should not transmit an unverified, unauthorised

10 document.

11 Q. Well, I think we can both agree that sometimes regulations get

12 overlooked in war; right?

13 A. I agree with you.

14 Q. Okay. And --

15 A. However, here there are a number of elements, in fact two or

16 three that are mutually contradicting.

17 Q. Well, let's look at another one. You say that after this is

18 sent, after it's encrypted and sent, General Tolimir should be waiting

19 around the encryption room to sign the -- a copy like this? Is that

20 right? Is that the regs?

21 A. I'll come back to this outgoing telegram, a document that is to

22 be transmitted. It has to be signed. It has to be transmit to the

23 station. If it was General Tolimir signed here, he had to sign it. It

24 could also be signed by somebody authorised by Tolimir, but in any case,

25 it had to be signed.

Page 29218

1 I agree with you if we assume there was no stamp, but I don't

2 believe that at this level there was a station of cryptographic

3 protection that did not have a stamp.

4 Q. Okay. Well, whether you believe Mr. Gojkovic or not, you can

5 certainly imagine that General Tolimir, on the 14th of July, the first

6 day of a major assault on Zepa, may not want to be -- just hanging around

7 the encryption machine so he can properly follow the regs and get it

8 signed. You can imagine that might happen, can't you?

9 A. I can imagine that, but in that case there would have been

10 someone who would have signed on his behalf, because the soldier, the

11 operator in the station would not otherwise know whether it was indeed

12 ordered by General Tolimir or not.

13 I have not seen this document before. This is the first time I'm

14 seeing it. But from what I have learned, from what I was taught,

15 documents have to be properly processed, and that implies all the

16 elements I described.

17 If we talk the signature of the ordering officer, if it's missing

18 that can sometimes be explained by the circumstances, but everything is

19 missing here.

20 Q. Sir, do you really think somebody would sign for General Tolimir

21 if General Tolimir hadn't given them his specific authority? Isn't that

22 why there's no signature on there?

23 He sent this request. Somebody typed it up. Somebody sent it

24 off to its address, and Tolimir was busy fighting the war; and nobody

25 dared sign for it, and that's why that document is the way it is. Isn't

Page 29219

1 that certainly possible?

2 A. It's possible. Why wouldn't it be possible? I'm not disputing

3 that. I'm just saying that this is against the regulations. This is not

4 a proper document.

5 Q. Right. And it's the position of the Prosecution that one of the

6 reasons these documents still existed is because they're a little

7 different than the main ones and they got missed when these things were

8 looked for and cleaned out by people that would have done that.

9 Do you know anything about culling through the archives of the

10 VRS to take out documents that may be damaging?

11 A. No. No for several reasons. Through a combination of

12 circumstances, just after the war, I changed position. I was no longer

13 Chief of Staff.

14 In the beginning of 1997, I assumed my duties in the

15 communications organ of what was then the General Staff, and just after

16 the war, in 1996, some other things were happening, and I did not

17 eyewitness the destruction of archives or anything related to such

18 destruction. I heard talk about the necessity to put order into the

19 archives as envisaged by the rules governing archives and filing, certain

20 deadlines for keeping material, and that is the sort of activity I

21 performed in my unit.

22 Q. So you did hear about the archives and the need to get them

23 ordered.

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. And where were they then?

Page 29220

1 A. I don't understand what you mean. You mean the place where they

2 were?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. The archive of my unit, the regiment command, was kept within the

5 unit, and the rest of the archives such as the archives of the Main Staff

6 I had nothing to do with. I had no insight into that; I had no access,

7 didn't know where it was kept.

8 Q. Well, your records are important records of the Main Staff

9 archives, so I mean, they would have been archived with the other stuff;

10 right?

11 A. No, not then. In 1996, the archive of the regiment was in the

12 regiment.

13 Q. Well, in 1996 this institution was here. It had indicted

14 General Mladic. It had indicted President Karadzic and a few others. So

15 any discussion about the archives, especially communications material,

16 should have involved discussions about identifying material related to

17 criminal charges, if for nothing else to show how innocent they were, or

18 to destroy stuff that might -- or hide stuff that might show how they're

19 guilty.

20 So what did you hear about on those subjects?

21 A. Well, the regiment was not involved in combat activities in

22 relation to various actions that were executed. We only provided

23 communications, as I described earlier, and to the best of my knowledge;

24 which is extensive, there were no documents in the regiment archive that

25 could be compromising -- that could be compromising to the commander of

Page 29221

1 the Main Staff or the men indicted.

2 In the war, the number of these documents that we kept was

3 reduced. A lot less documents were produced than would have been in

4 peacetime.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. So that --

7 Q. Sorry. You can continue if you're answering my question. I'm

8 sorry.

9 A. Well, I was about to say that there was no need within the

10 regiment to destroy, as you put it, or hide any documents.

11 Q. Would the regiment have kept, say, an order from General Mladic

12 that was addressed to the regiment?

13 A. Certainly.

14 Q. Okay. Let's go to 65 ter P00046, and let me give you a hard copy

15 of that. This is a document that came out of the Miletic's operations

16 branch by the number 03-4, dated 21 July 1995.

17 It's an order signed by General Mladic, and basically what it is

18 is an order that, among other things, says that all the units that were

19 participating in the Srebrenica operation should get some of the war

20 booty. And on paragraph 6, it says:

21 "The commission shall provide the following from war booty for

22 the needs of the units that participated in combat: The 65th Motorised

23 Protection Regiment, the 67th Communications Regiment, and the Sabotage

24 Battalion. Ten top of the range colour TV sets in perfect working order,

25 ten video recorders, ten freezers and ten washing machines. Make a

Page 29222

1 record of these goods and hand them over to the relevant organs through

2 the logistics organs."

3 Did you guys get a television set out of Srebrenica or a freezer?

4 A. No. I've never seen this document before. I know nothing about

5 this. And as for the goods listed in here, the Communications Regiment

6 received nothing. At that time, the regiment was in a very bad situation

7 as regards its accommodation and living conditions.

8 Q. So -- and a more important question would be: So was

9 General Mladic wrong when he concluded in this paragraph that the 67th

10 Communication Regiment participated in the combat?

11 A. I'm sure he was wrong, because the Communication Regiment did not

12 participate in the combat.

13 Q. Okay. Let's go to 2D00142. I've got a copy of this. It's a bad

14 photocopy, so it may be easier to read on the screen if they blow it up

15 for you a bit, but this is a 17 July order, again out of the Operations

16 and Training Administration, according to the number. It's again signed

17 by Ratko Mladic, and this one is actually addressed to the 67th

18 Communications Regiment under "Very urgent," and it says:

19 "As of 17 July," on paragraph 3, "the forces of the 1st Bratunac

20 Brigade, the 1st Milici Brigade, the 67th," that's the Communications

21 Regiment, "will comb the territory in the zone of Bratunac ..." and then

22 it talks about the commands. So clearly the 67th Protection Regiment had

23 guys with guns that could do this kind of sweep operation; right?

24 A. The 67th Regiment had young soldiers in training, signalsmen who

25 had their own personal weapons. I mean rifles, automatic rifles.

Page 29223

1 I've never seen this document before. This is the first time I

2 see it.

3 Q. Okay. Well, let's go back --

4 A. But --

5 Q. -- to your memory. Go back to the fall of Srebrenica. I'm sure

6 you've had a lot of time to think about this, and a lot of time to think

7 about your testimony, and a lot of time to think about those events. Did

8 your unit have a combat unit? You've already told us about the duty to

9 protect Crna Rijeka. Did your guys had a combat unit that took part in

10 this -- this important operation?

11 A. The Communication Regiment did not have any involvement in the

12 operation around Srebrenica. Its only form of participation was stepping

13 up security of the part of the command post providing security for the

14 units which were on a stand-by in case of attack, the Main Staff, the

15 communications service, and the communications also -- the Communications

16 Regiment also boosted measures in order to prevent leaks of information

17 via communications means.

18 Q. Okay. Sir. Let me -- this will be my last question. Maybe it

19 will jog your memory. But 17 July is about five days after the 12th of

20 July when the VRS and MUP forces entered in Potocari and took Srebrenica

21 and took the whole enclave. I'm sure you'll remember that, a couple of

22 days, the 12th and the 13th thousands of Muslims were shipped out towards

23 Kladanj.

24 And you may remember on the 16th of July the Muslims that were

25 going towards Zvornik got into a very bloody battle with the Zvornik

Page 29226

1 WITNESS: SLAVKO KRALJ

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Kralj. If you could take the

4 solemn declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE KWON: Please be seated.

8 Ms. Fauveau Ivanovic.

9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Examination by Ms. Fauveau:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, could you give us your name and surname,

12 please.

13 A. Slavko Kralj.

14 Q. Can you give us your educational background and what schools you

15 have completed?

16 A. I graduated from a school for non-commissioned officers in

17 Banja Luka in 1967, and then I passed my exam to become a commissioned

18 officer and receive my commission five years later. I also passed exams

19 to become a major. I also continued education for officers in charge of

20 command and staff duties at the brigade level. I also completed a

21 training course for battalion commanders. I also have a degree in

22 English from a training course in Belgrade. I completed many training

23 courses, including a training course for officers who were sent as

24 members of peacekeeping missions of the United Nations.

25 Q. What were your duties before the war started in

Page 29227

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. Throughout my military career I was a tank commander, a tank

3 platoon commander, the commander of an independent tank unit, a desk

4 officer for training at the military school in Banja Luka further on. I

5 was an observer, a United Nations observer as a member of UNIMOG mission

6 in 1989, from February to February, on the board are between Iraq and

7 Iran. That was from 1989 to 1990.

8 Q. Where were you in May of 1992?

9 A. I was a member of the 1st Krajina Corps, and I served as a

10 communications officer. Rather, a liaison officer.

11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It's just been corrected.

12 Q. When did you join the army of the Republika Srpska?

13 A. Together with the rest of the officers by a decree.

14 Q. Just before joining the army of the Republika Srpska, could you

15 tell us where you were?

16 A. I was a desk officer in the school centre in Banja Luka.

17 Q. You told us that you had been liaison officer in the 1st Corps of

18 the Krajina. What other posts did you have in the army of the Republika

19 Srpska?

20 A. I'm afraid I did not understand your question. What time? What

21 period of time are you referring to?

22 Q. In May 1992, you were liaison officer of the 1st Corps of the

23 Krajina. Did you -- were you in these posts during the whole war, or did

24 you have other missions, other assignments?

25 A. In the 1st Krajina Corps, I stayed up until the beginning of

Page 29228

1 November 1994, and then I was reassign to the Main Staff of the army of

2 Republika Srpska as an interpreter for English.

3 Q. When you belonged to the staff of the Republika Srpska, in what

4 particular organ were you serving?

5 A. This was the department for communication with international

6 military representatives.

7 Q. I would like to start with your assignments in the 1st Krajina

8 Corps. Who was your director, supervisor, in the 1st Krajina Corps?

9 A. Your Honours, my superior in the 1st Krajina Corps was Colonel

10 Gojko Vujnovic. He was the chief of the department for civilian affairs.

11 Q. Would you repeat the name of the unit of which Colonel Vujnovic

12 was the chief, the department?

13 A. This was the newly establish organ in the 1st Corps, and its

14 title was the department for civilian affairs.

15 Q. Could you describe for us your tasks and assignments in the 1st

16 Krajina Corps?

17 A. My task was primarily to translate documents that arrived in the

18 corps that were in English. I also maintained contacts with foreign

19 military representatives and international organisations. That was my

20 task as a liaison officer. In order to organise contacts and meetings

21 between the corps commander and the aforementioned persons, I had to

22 perform all of my tasks that I just mentioned.

23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D785,

24 please. It's an order from the Main Staff of the 6th of August, 1993,

25 which was sent to all the corps of the army of Republika Srpska.

Page 29229

1 Q. Could you look at item 2 of this order.

2 A. I have, Your Honours.

3 Q. Did the department of civil affairs in the 1st Corps of the

4 Krajina did indeed have the task which are indicated in this order?

5 A. The civilian affairs organs had precisely the tasks that are

6 reflected in bullet point 2.

7 Q. Did the 1st Corps of the Krajina receive the Main Staff orders

8 concerning the passage of convoys?

9 A. The 1st Krajina Corps received instructions from the Main Staff

10 for the passage of certain convoys through the area of responsibility of

11 the 1st Krajina Corps. This was done down the chain of command from the

12 Main Staff to the 1st Krajina Corps.

13 Q. In the area of the 1st Krajina Corps were there convoys which

14 went through?

15 A. Your Honours, there were UNPROFOR convoys, there were UNHCR

16 convoys, and there were also the International Committee of the Red Cross

17 convoy. They all came from Zagreb, went through Gradiska, Banja Luka,

18 and further on towards Zenica or Tesanj.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D782.

20 This is an order from the Main Staff of the 1st August, 1993. As you may

21 see, this order was sent also to the 1st Krajina Corps. And could the

22 witness be shown page 2, first paragraph on page 2. It's also the first

23 paragraph of page 2 in the English version.

24 Q. You said that you received instructions, orders, from the Main

25 Staff. Did you receive authorisations concerning certain -- the convoys,

Page 29230

1 specific convoys?

2 A. Your Honours, we received orders which provided the details of

3 the type of convoy, its route, and what the convoy contained, what kind

4 of goods. This applied to UNPROFOR convoys.

5 Q. Indeed, if you -- if we could come back to the first page of the

6 order. You can see that this order concerns the movements of UNPROFOR.

7 Can you see this at the top of the document, the top of the page?

8 A. Yes. That's a document about the movement of the UNPROFOR

9 through the territory of Republika Srpska received from the command of

10 the VRS Main Staff.

11 Q. In 1993, could convoys pass without the authorisation of the Main

12 Staff?

13 A. There were certain attempts by convoys to pass, but we always

14 reported to the Main Staff about such attempts and requested their

15 opinion and orders.

16 Q. Were there orders concerning precisely a ban of passage without

17 an authorisation?

18 A. There were such orders, Your Honours, but I can't recall exactly

19 when at the moment.

20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D774.

21 This is an order from the Main Staff of 15 May 1993. It is sent to all

22 the corps.

23 Q. I'm interested particularly in this order, the one but last

24 paragraph.

25 A. Your Honour, honouring this order of the 15th of March, 1993, not

Page 29231

1 a single convoy could pass through the area of the 1st Krajina Corps

2 without prior authorisation and announcement in keeping with the orders

3 of the Main Staff of the VRS.

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown a

5 notification of the passage of convoy of the army of the Republika

6 Srpska. This is a notification sent to the Drina Corps. It is 5D839.

7 Q. So this is a notification sent to the Drina Corps and Sarajevo

8 Corps. Did this notification received by the 1st Krajina Corps look like

9 this one?

10 A. The notification received by the 1st Krajina Corps, in terms of

11 substance and format, was similar. Of course the names were different,

12 and there were different vehicles and cargo, but the order of items is

13 identical.

14 Q. In the first paragraph of this note, notification, on 16 August

15 1994, one sees a detailed specification of the goods carried. For

16 instance, five kilos of sugar, 10 litres of milk, 40 yogurts and so on.

17 Forty containers. What was the case for the 1st Krajina Corps? Should

18 foodstuffs be specified in such detail?

19 A. The goods were always specified.

20 Q. You said that there had been some attempts for convoys to try and

21 pass without authorisation. Have you ever seen an order from the Main

22 Staff demanding that illegal passages should be stop or prohibited?

23 A. Yes, there was such an order passed on down to some units, the

24 units that manned the check-points. Our situation was peculiar, because

25 convoys entered from Republic of Croatia crossing a bridge, so it was not

Page 29232

1 possible to enter without authorisation south of Sarajevo.

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D815.

3 This is a document from the Main Staff. I think the date is 30 January

4 1994. This document is sent to the 2nd Krajina Corps and to Eastern

5 Bosnia Corps and to the Sarajevo Corps. As for the 1st Krajina Corps and

6 the Drina Corps and the Hercegovina Corps, they have received this

7 document only for information, for their information.

8 Q. Could you please have a look at this document and tell us why the

9 1st Krajina Corps receives this document for information only?

10 A. We received this document for our information, because the Main

11 Staff of the VRS had knowledge of such illegal actions, and the idea was

12 that adequate steps be taken into the area covered by the 1st Corps to

13 prevent such things.

14 Q. A while ago we were speaking of the UNPROFOR convoys. Were there

15 any specific orders concerning the convoys of humanitarian organisations?

16 A. There had been requests by the UNPROFOR that they be allowed to

17 escort UNHCR convoys, that their observers or other personnel escort

18 these convoys through the area of the 1st Krajina Corps.

19 Q. We saw a while ago an order from the Main Staff concerning the

20 UNPROFOR convoys. Did the 1st Krajina Corps receive other orders

21 concerning the passage of international organisations? I specify:

22 Humanitarian international organisations.

23 A. Your Honour, the Main Staff very frequently issued instructions

24 regarding both the UNPROFOR and international humanitarian organisations.

25 Everything that was received by the other corps was also received in the

Page 29233

1 form of an order or information by the 1st Krajina Corps.

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D1285

3 [as interpreted]. This is an order of the 1st of August, 1993, from the

4 Main Staff, sent to all the corps.

5 Q. As you may see, this is an order concerning the movement of

6 humanitarian aid, and the date is 1st August 1993, precisely the same

7 date as the order which we saw a moment ago and which concerned the

8 passage of the UNPROFOR convoys.

9 And for the transcript it was 5D782.

10 Can you explain why the Main Staff, on the same day, issued two

11 orders, one for the passage of UNPROFOR and the other one for the passage

12 of humanitarian aid?

13 A. These two activities are a bit different. UNPROFOR convoys meant

14 armed convoys, armed to a smaller or lesser extent. And there was an

15 UNPROFOR office at Pale, and in order to abbreviate the procedure it was

16 placed in the hands of the army so that the army negotiates directly with

17 the UNPROFOR the passage of their convoys; whereas humanitarian convoys

18 in this period were regulated, as dated here, through the Ministry of

19 Defence of the Republika Srpska.

20 Q. I'm going to stray away from the period when you were at the Main

21 Staff towards the end of 1994 and beginning the 1995. When you were at

22 the Main Staff, do you know who was in charge of giving authorisations

23 for the passage of humanitarian aid?

24 A. A coordinating body was formed and attached to the Government of

25 Republika Srpska. It was based in Pale, and it issued approvals for the

Page 29234

1 passage of humanitarian convoys and notified them, in fact, to the Main

2 Staff of the VRS in order to trigger further procedure.

3 Q. Do you remember anything about this organ, the coordination

4 organ? When was it established?

5 A. I cannot give you an exact answer to that question. I know that

6 a member of that body from the Main Staff of the VRS was

7 Colonel Milos Djurdjic.

8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

9 5D806.

10 Q. This is an order dated 30th of December, 1993, coming from the

11 Main Staff. The coordinating organ is mentioned in the first paragraph.

12 I would like to examine page 2 in English and page 2 in B/C/S,

13 item 7.

14 At item 7 you can read the following:

15 "[In English] This order shall come into force on 1 January 1994

16 and be amended on receipt of the document from the Coordinating Body for

17 Humanitarian Aid which describes the new system of humanitarian aid in

18 detail."

19 [Interpretation] Does this refresh your memory, and can you

20 recall anything about the period in time when this coordinating organ was

21 established?

22 A. Obviously it was established earlier. I can't remember the exact

23 date.

24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this might

25 be a convenient moment for a break.

Page 29235

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We will break for 25 minutes.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Sir, in 1993, 1994, were the convoys being checked?

6 A. They were always checked, at the entrance check-point.

7 Q. Was it possible for a convoy to go through without being

8 inspected at that time, 1993, 1994?

9 A. Your Honours, it was impossible for a convoy to pass without

10 being inspected.

11 Q. Were there any specific orders for check-points and the staff and

12 officers who inspected these convoys?

13 A. Your Honours, there was an order issued by the Main Staff which

14 regulated the appearance of the check-point where convoys were inspected.

15 It was also stipulated that appropriate manpower and equipment be

16 selected for the task and that full attention be paid to civilised

17 behaviour and civilised treatment of the internationals involved in the

18 transportation regardless of their origin, whether they were UNPROFOR or

19 any other international organisation.

20 Q. I'd like to show you 5D771. This is an order from the Main Staff

21 sent to all the corps, and it deals with UNPROFOR convoys and

22 humanitarian aid convoys of the 9th of April, 1993.

23 Please look at item 1.

24 A. I've looked at it.

25 Q. Did the 1st Krajina Corps take any specific measures to abide by

Page 29236

1 this order?

2 A. Your Honours, pursuant to this order which reached the assistant

3 commander for civilian affairs, the assistant commander compiled another

4 document which the commander signed and which was sent to the unit that

5 was in charge of the inspection of convoys.

6 The assistant commander for civilian affairs, i.e., his liaison

7 officer, in the specific case it was me, we were duty-bound to check the

8 implementation of that order on the ground. We had to perform regular

9 checks of the implementation of the order.

10 The brigade wherein whose area of responsibility the check-point

11 was included the activities of that check-point into its regular daily

12 reports and mentioned any convoys that would pass through.

13 Q. Did the Main Staff then send other orders relating to the quality

14 and intensity of convoy checks?

15 A. There were such orders.

16 MS. FAUVEAU [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

17 5D802.

18 Q. This is another order relating to the inspections of convoy, in

19 this specific instance humanitarian aid convoys. Please examine item 2.

20 It's to be found at the very bottom of page 1. And this order is dated

21 24th of November, 1993.

22 A. I've looked at item 2.

23 Q. Why was it necessary to reissue a similar order six or seven

24 months later?

25 A. As I have already said it, the corps commands analysed the work

Page 29237

1 of the check-point, and they informed the Main Staff about any problems.

2 In a desire to avoid any conflicts and to enable a smooth passage of

3 convoys, the Main Staff re-emphasised that issue. I suppose that there

4 may have been minor problems at some of the check-points, and the one in

5 the 1st Krajina Corps was not one of them.

6 Q. Earlier at page 52, line 22, you mentioned the way check-points

7 were organised. I'd like to show you 5D789. This is an order dated 30th

8 of August, 1993, and it was sent to all the corps of the VRS.

9 Look at item 2. It indicates clearly that check-points must be

10 organised in an adequate way, but what is -- what I am more interested in

11 is item 1, which states that:

12 "Check-points must function continuously, 24 hours a day."

13 Does the fact that check-points were operational 24 hours a day

14 pose a number of problems in terms of safety, or did it pose such

15 problems?

16 A. There were problems. There were security issues. Working during

17 the day is not the same as working during the night. Very often there

18 were no lights. The place was not lit or, rather, lights had to be

19 improvised in such places. And the intention behind this order was to

20 allow UNPROFOR forces and peacekeeping organisations to be able to pass

21 smoothly around the clock. At one point there were a lot of convoys, and

22 it was difficult for all of them to be let through during the day. Some

23 of them had to wait for nightfall to pass, and this order provided for

24 such cases.

25 Q. Do you remember whether you received, very shortly afterwards,

Page 29238

1 another order relating to movements after nightfall?

2 A. I can't remember, Your Honours.

3 Q. Let's turn now to 5D790. This is an order from the Main Staff

4 dated 6th of September, 1993, and sent to all corps.

5 Please look at the first paragraph of this order.

6 A. Yes, I've had a look at the first paragraph.

7 Q. Do you now remember this order?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. Now, we were mentioning checks. Why were these checks and

10 inspections compulsory? I mean, inspecting the convoys.

11 A. Well, firstly, this was agreed. This was part of the negotiating

12 procedure with those who were in charge of the transportation of the

13 goods, including UNPROFOR. Checks were needed because most convoys moved

14 on to the territory under the control of the other side. There were

15 cases of materials being transported which were not declared, which might

16 have been of military significance or use for the other side.

17 Q. What happened -- what happened when someone refused to inspect

18 checks -- convoys? What was the procedure when a convoy refused to let

19 itself be inspected?

20 A. Your Honours, in the 1st Corps we had a case of that kind. An

21 UNHCR convoy on route from Zagreb and with an intention to proceed

22 towards Travnik would not allow us to check the cargo. They simply had

23 to return to their departure point in Zagreb after a short conversation.

24 I suppose that they must have been transporting something that didn't --

25 that they did not want the check-points to discover.

Page 29239

1 Q. Did the Main Staff inform you of the procedure of -- that was to

2 be applied whenever such incidents occurred at check-points?

3 A. There was also a procedure envisaged for cases when goods on the

4 list are found. In that case such goods would be seized, kept, and the

5 Main Staff would be notified.

6 Q. Let's now turn to 5D809. This is an order from the Main Staff

7 dated 16th of January, 1994. It was sent to all corps. I would like to

8 look at item 2 of this order. It's on page 1 both in English and in

9 B/C/S.

10 A. I have looked at it.

11 Q. I'd like to know specifically whether we're talking about convoys

12 here or any missions conducted by the international organisations located

13 in Republika Srpska.

14 A. In this item 2 reference is made specifically to the UNPROFOR but

15 also other international organisations. Minor problems were to be

16 resolved on the spot, that is at brigade or corps level, things that

17 could be handled, whereas more complex problems would have to be reported

18 as soon as possible to the Main Staff of the VRS.

19 Q. When there were incidents or difficulties in the 1st Krajina

20 Corps in 1993 and 1994, who would you turn to at the Main Staff to inform

21 them? Who was your contact point?

22 A. In technical professional terms, we approached Colonel Magazin,

23 who was in charge of all convoy relate issues at the Main Staff. Of

24 course another notification would go to the operation's officer on duty

25 or the corps commander.

Page 29240

1 Q. Could you please repeat what you said about the operations

2 officer on duty, please?

3 A. The duty operations officer had the communication line towards

4 the command, and in the sector for civilian affairs, there was also a

5 civilian telephone; and if an opinion was needed urgently we could use

6 that line because it was quicker. We had secure communications on both

7 sides, but of course the first request would be addressed to the duty

8 operations officer.

9 Q. When you were serving in the 1st Krajina Corps did you have any

10 information relating to the activities of international humanitarian

11 organisations and/or UNPROFOR which would have been contrary to their

12 mission?

13 A. Yes, we had such information.

14 Q. Could we now move on to 5D817. This is an order from the Main

15 Staff dated 12th of February, 1994. It was sent to all corps.

16 The preamble of the order relates to organisations -- to

17 activities planned and organised by UNPROFOR and humanitarian

18 organisations related to supplying and providing the Muslims with

19 military equipment. Did you ever get such information?

20 A. Your Honour, we did receive information of this kind, and we took

21 the appropriate steps.

22 Q. Let's now move on to 5D818. In the Krajina Corps, did you

23 conduct an analysis of passage of the convoys and of the goods? Just so

24 you know, this is a report from the Drina Corps. The only thing I'm

25 interested in here is whether you in the 1st Krajina Corps drafted

Page 29241

1 similar reports and information notes.

2 A. An analysis would be done and periodic reports would be made to

3 the Main Staff of the VRS.

4 Q. Did you receive any information according to which certain

5 humanitarian organisations had activities of intelligence, were involved

6 in intelligence activities?

7 A. Your Honour, we did have intelligence that certain humanitarian

8 organisations under the cloak of providing humanitarian aid are engaged

9 in intelligence work and consequently our checks became more meticulous.

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown two

11 small documents on which I wish to ask a question. The first is 5D781.

12 And this is a notification of the Main Staff sent to the Drina Corps on

13 the 29th of July, 1993.

14 Q. Please have a look at the second paragraph which has to do with

15 the activities of the HCR, UNHCR.

16 A. I've looked at it.

17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown the

18 same type document, 5D780, which was sent to the Drina Corps and to the

19 Sarajevo Corps, dated 27 July 1993, which is approximately the same

20 period.

21 Q. As you may see in the last paragraph it's practically identical

22 to the paragraph you read beforehand in the former document.

23 A. I've read it.

24 Q. According to what you remember, do you recall any period during

25 which this sort of information were specifically -- were quite frequently

Page 29242

1 received?

2 A. The reports were more frequent in July and August 1993.

3 Q. Do you remember whether according -- at the same period or maybe

4 a bit later the Krajina Corps received a document from the Main Staff

5 indicating indeed that there were intelligence activities within

6 humanitarian organisations?

7 A. I remember documents like that as well.

8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D796.

9 Q. This is a document from the Main Staff, dated 26 September 1993.

10 It was sent to all corps.

11 In the second paragraph you see that the intelligence activities

12 of UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations have intensified recently.

13 A. I've read it.

14 Q. This type of information, did it have an influence on the type of

15 checks on convoys?

16 A. We intensified activities aimed at detecting video equipment and

17 communications equipment either announced or unannounced, and we would

18 make a brief evaluation of all the purposes that such equipment could be

19 used for.

20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown on this

21 first page a bit lower. In English it's also on the first page, third

22 paragraph from the bottom.

23 Q. You can see in this document that there's video camera recording

24 which is mentioned. These goods, video cameras and photo cameras, were

25 they authorised? Were these goods transported in the humanitarian

Page 29243

1 convoys?

2 A. That item was not authorised, but there had been attempts to

3 smuggle in that sort of equipment, especially when smaller patrols or

4 groups had been announced on routes leading to protected areas. In the

5 zone of the 1st Corps, we had very good cooperation with civilian police

6 who were involved in monitoring the passage of convoys but also

7 individuals, and that avoided us unnecessary delays that would have

8 hindered the passage of convoys, groups of vehicles, or individual

9 vehicles.

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D794.

11 Q. This is a report from the Drina Corps sent to Colonel Magazin,

12 which you mentioned a while ago, and at the -- in the second paragraph in

13 the middle, you can see that the convoy was transporting video cameras,

14 photo cameras, films, radios, and so on.

15 Could you explain why the video equipment and photo cameras were

16 not authorised in particular?

17 A. Your Honour, this equipment could have been used, and there are

18 reports that it was indeed used, for filming the positions of our units

19 in the area through which they passed and that the information obtained

20 in this way was made available to the enemy side. They often explained

21 that it was for their own use, even their own private use, as a memento

22 of their mission. Of course we couldn't accept that in view of the

23 routes along which they passed, so we seized, confiscate such equipment

24 and sometimes returned it to them when they -- on their way back.

25 Q. Before we stop, you were a JNA officer before the war. What was

Page 29244

1 the JNA position towards the question of recording video clips and

2 photographs of these buildings or vehicles? What was the position of the

3 JNA about this equipment?

4 A. This is not quite clear. Could you repeat it?

5 Q. I will repeat. Did the JNA authorise its buildings and its

6 equipment, its vehicles, or any other sort of equipment during peacetime

7 before the war could be filmed or recorded?

8 A. The rules made clear what must not be filmed or photographed.

9 Such notices were placed on installations and on the roads. It was

10 indicated on which stretch of the road, if it was a military training

11 ground or something like that was not to be filmed or photographed. Not

12 every facility, not every installation could be captured on camera.

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Kralj, what was your --

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] -- shall we break?

16 JUDGE KWON: In 1993 to 1995? What was your rank. That was my

17 question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in 1993 I was a major

19 in the armoured mechanised units until mid-1995 when I was promoted into

20 lieutenant colonel.

21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We will adjourn for today and resume at

22 9.00 tomorrow, during which time you're not supposed to talk to anybody

23 or discuss your evidence with anybody. Do you understand, Mr. Kralj?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand my role as a witness

25 completely.