Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29383

 1                           Tuesday, 9 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call

 6     the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, ma'am.  Good morning, everybody.  All

10     the accused are here.  Prosecution today is Mr. McCloskey and

11     Mr. Elderkin.  Defence teams I notice the absence of Mr. Lazarevic,

12     Mr. Josse, Ms. Nikolic, and Mr. Haynes.  All right.

13             Any preliminaries?

14             Mr. Gosnell.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I hadn't planned on standing up

16     before you, but since we have the occasion without a witness in the room,

17     I would like to take care of one housekeeping matter.  That pertains to

18     the Trial Chamber's oral decision of 10 October 2008 concerning the

19     admission of a 92 bis statement by Petar Loncarevic, and we have

20     completed the formalities in relation to that statement.  It has been

21     uploaded on to e-court as 4D644.

22             Thank you very much, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell, for that information.

24     Anything else?  I saw Mr. McCloskey about to stand.  Yes, he is standing

25     now.

Page 29384

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We had the last witness where I think we hadn't

 4     done the documents.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but I --

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So we're ready to do that.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, exactly.  That's not what I meant with

 8     preliminaries.  No, no.  We still have got to deal with the documents.

 9     Okay.  No other preliminaries?

10             So, documents.  We had admitted, I think, one document or two

11     documents, no?  Or three?

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So, Ms. Fauveau.

14             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Chairman, I sent the list of about

15     60 documents.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Then any objection?  Go slowly if you're

17     going to object to several, please.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.  There is one document that

19     did not have an ERN on it, but we don't have an objection to that.  We

20     are looking a little bit more into it, but at this time we don't have any

21     objection.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  Other Defence teams, any

23     objections?  We hear none.  So all these documents are admitted.

24             Which one is it?  Is it the last one, 5D1411?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 29385

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That last one --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, okay, all right.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- is part of a report, and we are tracking that

 5     down and we don't have a problem.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 7             Madam Registrar, also, there are three at least that I can see of

 8     those documents that have not yet been translated; and, consequently,

 9     they will be marked for identification pending translation thereof.

10     Okay?

11             There are no other Defence teams wishing to tender any documents?

12     Yes.  Then we'll move to the Prosecution list.  It has been circulated,

13     too.

14             Any objections, Ms. Fauveau?

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Merci.  Other Defence teams, any objection?  None.

17     So all these documents are also admitted.  I am not aware of pending

18     translations, as at least as it appears from that list.  But while you

19     were cross-examining this witness, I think there were several documents

20     that had not yet been translated.  These have all not yet been

21     translated.

22             So all those documents that have not yet been translated will

23     remain marked for identification purposes until they are duly translated.

24             Thank you.

25             Mr. Bourgon.

Page 29386

 1             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning,

 2     Mr. President.  Good morning, Judges.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

 4             MR. BOURGON:  I would just like to say for the record,

 5     Mr. President, that our consent to the admission of these documents, of

 6     course, is subject to the caveat of our motion, which is currently

 7     pending before the Trial Chamber, concerning the documents adduced by the

 8     Prosecution.

 9             Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  Thank you.  It goes

11     without saying, I mean, by now, after two and a half years, you should

12     have a familiarised yourself with our system.  Okay.

13             So let's bring the next witness.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good morning, to you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome to this Tribunal.  Before you start giving

18     evidence as a Defence witness, our rules require from you a solemn

19     declaration that you will be testifying the truth.  That is the solemn

20     declaration that you have in front of you, please read it out aloud, and

21     that will be your undertaking with us.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

25     You are going to be asked some questions by Mr. Petrusic for General

Page 29387

 1     Miletic, and then we will see who else would like to put questions to

 2     you.

 3             Mr. Petrusic.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, and good morning, Your

 5     Honours.

 6                           WITNESS:  NEDELJKO ILIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 8                           Examination by Mr. Petrusic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  As you've just heard, my

10     name is Nenad Petrusic, and I represent the Defence of General Miletic

11     and will be asking you some questions today.  But before that, I would

12     like to ask you to state your full name for the record.

13        A.   My name is Nedeljko Ilic.  I was born in 1950, in Tegare, in the

14     Bratunac municipality.

15        Q.   Mr. Ilic, could you please tell us what schools have you

16     completed?

17        A.   I am an economist; I completed the vocational college of

18     economics.

19        Q.   And do you work today?

20        A.   I work in my son's company; it's a privately run business.

21        Q.   Before the armed conflict broke out in the territory of the

22     Republic of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina, did you work?

23        A.   Yes.  I did work in the Podrinje Company; it's a catering tourist

24     business.  It was also before these events occurred and afterwards.

25        Q.   Mr. Ilic, I would like to ask you to make a pause before starting

Page 29388

 1     your answer so that everything is interpreted.

 2        A.   Yes, I understand.  I will.

 3        Q.   Could you tell us where were the headquarters of your company

 4     located?

 5        A.   The hotel catering tourist company Podrinje had its headquarters

 6     in Bratunac.  In addition to hotels, the company included restaurants and

 7     other facilities, so it was a company that dealt with catering and

 8     tourism.

 9             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that at

10     page 4, line 25, we have an obvious mistake.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  It will be looked into and corrected.  Thank

12     you for pointing it out.  Thank you.  It's basically for the record,

13     instead of the witness's name "Nedeljko Ilic," we have "Slavko

14     Novakovic."

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Ilic, did your company continue operating throughout the war

17     between 1992 and 1995?

18        A.   Yes.  We worked throughout that at a period.  We served the third

19     persons to a smaller degree, but we mostly catered to the needs of the

20     military and civilian authorities as they asked us to do.

21        Q.   And when the war broke out, were you mobilized, conscripted into

22     the army Republika Srpska?

23        A.   Yes, from April 1992.

24        Q.   And were you in the army throughout that time?

25        A.   Yes, from the beginning until the end; until 1995, that is.

Page 29389

 1        Q.   And did you at the same time perform your job at the company?

 2        A.   Yes.  In fact, I was conscripted in such a way that I had to do

 3     some work for my company; and then, as needed, I was used or deployed in

 4     the Bratunac Brigade as they needed.

 5        Q.   When we are talking about the outbreak of the hostilities in

 6     1992, the line between your unit -- actually, who were you fighting?

 7        A.   The separation line was the Zuti Most, Yellow Bridge, Zagan [as

 8     interpreted], and so on, between Srebrenica and Bratunac; and the

 9     conflict broke out between Muslims and Serbs.

10        Q.   And those two municipalities, Bratunac and Srebrenica, were they

11     adjacent?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Mr. Ilic, do you know that at some point in time during the war

14     protected areas were set up in that region?

15        A.   Yes.  I think that from mid-1993 onwards, that was the case.

16        Q.   And could you tell us what was the protected area?

17        A.   That was the area that covered the Srebrenica municipality, and

18     it was adjacent to the area covered by the Bratunac municipality.

19        Q.   And do you know what peacekeeping force came to the municipality

20     of Srebrenica?

21        A.   I know that, first, there were some smaller units; I don't know

22     much about them.  And in the second half of 1993, towards the end of

23     1993, the Dutch Battalion was deployed there as the peacekeeping force in

24     the Srebrenica protected area.

25        Q.   Did you have any business or private relations with the

Page 29390

 1     peacekeeping force?

 2        A.   Upon the arrival of the Dutch Battalion in late 1993, I was told

 3     that there was a possibility that I might be providing them with

 4     logistics support from my company.  There was a number of meetings in the

 5     regiments, and this was, indeed, agreed upon later.  So those were the

 6     contacts that I had with the Dutch Battalion.

 7        Q.   And could you tell us how did those meetings come about?  What

 8     were the needs of the two sides?

 9        A.   Well, the representative of the observers - I think his name was

10     Andres - he came to the Fontana Hotel with Mr. Nikolic, and they said

11     that they had problems with supplying the forces up there at Potocari,

12     deployed there at Potocari, in terms of logistics.  They asked me whether

13     I could organise at the level of the company the logistics support for

14     them.  And since there were problems and difficulties, I also had to

15     contact the civilian authorities, tell them about it.  I also had to

16     contact the military authorities, and they gave me the permission to set

17     up a meeting and to agree about this business.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Elderkin.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Not an objection, but

20     I see a reference to Mr. Nikolic and thought it might be helpful that

21     that's cleared up before we go any further.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are talking about of Momir Nikolic, though,

23     aren't we?  I just need a confirmation and we can proceed.  Thank you.

24             Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

Page 29391

 1        Q.   Mr. Ilic, could you please tell us which Nikolic are you talking

 2     about, the one that attended this meeting?

 3        A.   That was Mr. Momir Nikolic.

 4        Q.   Could you tell us what did this logistics support imply, as you

 5     put it?

 6        A.   Well, the logistics support comprised the provision of food

 7     stuffs, bread, fruit, vegetables, juice, beer, cans, and other food

 8     stuffs.

 9             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 5D1170 up on

10     the screen, and could we move to page 2 of this document in both

11     versions.

12        Q.   Mr. Ilic, in this version, in the Serbian version, do you

13     recognise the signature on the right-hand side?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could you tell us whose signature is it?

16        A.   It is my signature.

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we now go back to page 1 in

18     both versions of this contract.

19        Q.   And could you tell us if you recall this contract on the

20     provision of catering services?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   The date on this contract is the 18th of March, 1994.  So was

23     that the first contract that you concluded with the representatives of

24     UNPROFOR, and of the Dutch Battalion, to be more specific?

25        A.   Yes.  This was the first contract, the first final contract that

Page 29392

 1     was signed.  The other meetings were of a preparatory nature, and

 2     technicalities were arranged, the kind and prices for the goods to be

 3     supplied and other technical issues that had to be dealt with before the

 4     goods were actually delivered.  So all the details were arranged that

 5     there would be twice weekly deliveries, the items to be supplied were

 6     specified, and it was also specified that payment would be cash on

 7     delivery.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to look at

 9     5D1171.  Could we please have it up on our screens.

10        Q.   Mr. Ilic, as you sit here, given the time that has passed in the

11     meantime, do you recall this document?

12        A.   Yes, I do.  This is an approval given by the government for

13     cooperation and work with the Dutch Battalion.  It was signed by the

14     finance minister, Milenko Stanic.

15        Q.   We can see in this information bulletin that some goods could not

16     be procured.  Could you please tell us what this meant?

17        A.   Well, for the most part, this had to do with the procurement of

18     weapons, footwear, clothes, and military equipment.  I think that's what

19     it was.

20        Q.   In accordance with the contract that you signed with the members

21     of the Dutch Battalion, and pursuant to this memo of the government, you

22     did not have any restrictions on the provision of supplies?

23        A.   Up until I received this document, I could not do anything.  It

24     was only when I received this document from the government that I was

25     able to actually provide the services as per the contract to the members

Page 29393

 1     of the Dutch Battalion.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have

 3     document 5D525.  In the English version, the date is wrong; and instead

 4     of the 18th of March, 1994, it actually should read the 18th of March,

 5     1995.

 6             Could we please go to page 2 of this document, in both versions.

 7        Q.   Mr. Ilic, tell us, do you recognise the signature on the

 8     right-hand side?

 9        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

10        Q.   We can go back to page 1, where the representative of the Dutch

11     Battalion is said to be Major Boering.  Do you remember this officer who

12     was the representative of DutchBat when this contract was concluded?

13        A.   Yes, I do.  Yes, I remember this.

14        Q.   Mr. Ilic, you had a previous contract which was valid in 1984 and

15     the date was 18th of March, but it was 1994.  Now we have another one

16     dated the 18th of March, 1995.  Can you explain why the same contract was

17     concluded again?  It's same as regards the rights and obligations of both

18     parties to the contract.

19        A.   As the first contract had expired, it was valid for only a year.

20     After a year of work, the parties had to decide whether they would

21     continue their operation or not.  As both parties were satisfied, a new

22     contract was drawn up on the 18th of March, 1995, after the expiry of the

23     one-year contract.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In line 6, page 11,

25     its 1984, not 1984.

Page 29394

 1             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you remember for what period this contract was concluded?

 3        A.   You mean this last one, the 18th of March, 1995?

 4        Q.   Yes?

 5        A.   Well, I think it was valid for a year, also.

 6        Q.   Under this contract also, did you deliver to DutchBat goods once

 7     or twice a week under the same conditions as previously?

 8        A.   Yes, certainly, and they were satisfied.  We even discussed

 9     extending our cooperation so that they could reside in the Fontana Hotel

10     in a more organised manner.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 5D1172 on the

12     screen, please.  Could we scroll down a little bit in the Serbian

13     version.  Excellent, yes.  Very good.  Thank you.

14        Q.   Mr. Ilic, do you recognise this signature on the right-hand side?

15        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

16        Q.   Can you tell us what this document is about and whether it has

17     any connection with your business dealings with UNPROFOR or, rather, with

18     DutchBat?

19        A.   This document is a report on the business done with the DutchBat

20     over a particular period of time.  We were obliged to send such a report

21     to the government and to the military authorities, so both to the

22     civilian and the military authorities.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have document 1173 --

24     5D - excuse me - 1173.

25        Q.   Mr. Ilic, do you recognise this document?

Page 29395

 1        A.   Yes.  This is an invoice where the goods delivered are listed,

 2     beer, coca cola, juice, and cake; the delivery dates; it says that the

 3     goods were paid for in cash; and the representative of UNPROFOR who took

 4     delivery of the goods and paid for them is mentioned here.

 5        Q.   Was this carried out on the 5th of May, 1995, this takeover of

 6     goods and the payment?

 7        A.   Yes, yes, certainly.  The 5th of May.  Because on the day the

 8     goods were delivered, the invoice was drawn up and the payment made; and

 9     then for the next order, we would go across the Yellow Bridge to the

10     UNPROFOR headquarters, to the command.

11        Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to whether the representatives of

12     DutchBat, when they took delivery of the goods, until the time they

13     crossed the Yellow Bridge, had any limitations -- or, rather, were the

14     goods checked, were they confiscated, or anything like that?

15        A.   I am not aware of that.  Probably, the representative of DutchBat

16     would have told us if he had had any problems.  When they took delivery

17     of the goods, there was always a commission that included a

18     representative of the brigade and a representative of the municipality,

19     so that when the invoice was finished, the representative of the brigade

20     would escort them as far as the demarcation line or the separation line.

21     I think there were no problems in this respect because, certainly, had

22     there been any problems, they would have pointed that out when they came

23     to the Fontana Hotel.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'd like another document, 5D1293.

25        Q.   Mr. Ilic, do you remember this document?

Page 29396

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   On the 1st of July 1995 is when this document was issued, and the

 3     title of the document is "Authorisation to Fontana Hotel Bratunac to

 4     Provide Commercial Services to UNPROFOR."  So it's an authorisation.

 5             Did you continue providing UNPROFOR with your services?

 6        A.   Yes, certainly.  And from the document, you can see that the

 7     representatives of the Drina Corps agreed for this business deal to be

 8     continued.  So, on the 1st of July, 1995, as this document shows, the

 9     business deal continued to function.

10        Q.   In addition to these deals that you had based on those two

11     contracts, did representatives of DutchBat visit your hotel and make use

12     of other hotel services?

13        A.   I think they did and I don't think there were any obstacles to

14     that.  I was even invited to visit their command.  They visited the hotel

15     without any problems.  They had no problems either in the hotel itself or

16     in the village.

17        Q.   In mid-July, were you in the hotel?  Were you at work?

18        A.   No.  As of the 4th of July, I was in my unit of the Bratunac

19     Brigade, that was the R Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

21     questions in my examination-in-chief of this witness.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

23             Mr. Zivanovic.

24             MR. SARAPA:  I have no questions for this witness.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

Page 29397

 1             Mr. Ostojic.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  No questions, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Bourgon.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  No questions, Mr. President.

 6             Mr. Gosnell.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  No questions, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Krgovic.

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  No questions, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Sarapa.

13             MR. SARAPA:  No questions.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Elderkin.

16             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Elderkin:

18        Q.   Good morning, witness.  My name is Rupert Elderkin, and I am

19     going to ask you a few questions on behalf of the Office of the

20     Prosecutor.

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  Can we have, please, 65 ter number 4070.

22        Q.   So you see this letter dated 18th of March, 1994.  This is a

23     letter that you wrote; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.  I wrote this, or, rather, my secretary; and I signed it.

25        Q.   And this is the same date as the first contract that you signed

Page 29398

 1     with DutchBat, isn't it?

 2        A.   Yes.  The 18th of March 1994, yes, yes.

 3        Q.   And in this letter, you sought permission from the local military

 4     authorities in Bratunac to sell, it says, "beer, wine, and provisions,"

 5     to the DutchBat; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   And you also wrote:

 8             "With such dealings, we would achieve economic effects that would

 9     be beneficial for both parties."

10             Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes, I do.  That's correct.  Part of the profits went to the

12     brigade and part went to the company.  It was wartime and the company did

13     only a little business with third persons.

14             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we have 65 ter 4075, please.

15        Q.   While that's coming up, could you say how much of the profit was

16     going to the Bratunac Brigade, a percentage?

17        A.   Well, I can't remember that now.

18        Q.   Okay.  You can see now there is another document on the screen

19     which is dated the 28th of June, 1995.  This is a message that you wrote

20     to the Drina Corps command --

21                           [French on English Channel]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are receiving translation in French on --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Apologies by interpreters.  Apologise.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Please go ahead and sorry for the

25     interruption, Mr. Elderkin.

Page 29399

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:

 2        Q.   So this is a document from the 28th of June, 1995, which you

 3     wrote to the Drina Corps command; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   And with this document, you are requesting permission from

 6     General Zivanovic to continue to trade with DutchBat; that's right?

 7        A.   That's correct, yes.

 8        Q.   And you see there is a remark, and this says:

 9             "You do know that this business cooperation allows for the

10     logical support of the Bratunac Brigade with 70 per cent profits, and

11     that it has been planned that the 300.000.000 dinars are given to that

12     brigade by the end of the year."

13             So the Bratunac Brigade received most of the profits from the

14     trade with DutchBat, didn't they?

15        A.   That's correct.  Yes, 70 per cent went to them and the plan was

16     earn 300.000 dinars.

17             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could I have 65 ter 4071, please.

18        Q.   Okay.  This is going back now to 1994, and this is a document

19     from the 5th of August.  This is a request that you sent - you with the

20     president of the Bratunac municipal Assembly sent - asking whether the

21     VRS Main Staff had consented for the Podrinje company to trade with

22     DutchBat; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  I am familiar with the document, and this is how it was.

24     We were duty-bound to send this to the General Staff and to the

25     government, all this information, and ask them to approve our work.

Page 29400

 1        Q.   So I see in the English, it refers to General Staff.  That is the

 2     Main Staff of the VRS, as in the staff headed by General Mladic; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   That's correct, yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you for the clarification.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  May I have 65 ter 4072, please.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now this is a document from the 10th of August of 1994,

 8     and this is a document sent by the Drina Corps command to the Bratunac

 9     Brigade command; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And the Drina Corps command is responding to the 5th of August

12     letter we have just seen; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   And here the Drina Corps command says:

15             "The command of the VRS Main Staff (Logistics Sector) has given

16     their consent for the goods to be delivered under the following

17     conditions ..."

18             Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes, I see it.

20        Q.   And you agree that the trading relationship between the Podrinje

21     company and DutchBat was subject to this consent of the Main Staff?

22        A.   Yes, both the Main Staff and the government.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we see again 65 ter 5D1171, please.

24        Q.   Now, we have already looked at this document this morning.  This

25     is an information bulletin dated 30th of March, 1994, from the Republika

Page 29401

 1     Srpska Ministry of Trade and Supply.  Now, you saw this document earlier,

 2     and page 10, lines 15 to 18 said:

 3             "Up until I received this document, I could not do anything.  It

 4     was only when I received this document from the government that I was

 5     able to actually provide the services as per the contract."

 6             Correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Without both of these approvals, I wouldn't

 8     be able to work.  There may be a mistake in the dates somewhere, but

 9     that's how it was.  Without this information or advice from the

10     government, without their approval, that is, and from the brigade, I

11     couldn't do that.  I couldn't engage in that business deal.

12        Q.   Now, this document also refers to goods which your company was

13     not permitted to trade with DutchBat; and in response to a question about

14     that, you said, at page 10, lines 9 to 11, that:

15             "Well, for the most part, this had to do with the procurement of

16     weapons, footwear, clothes, and military equipment.  I think that's what

17     it was."

18             Do you recall that answer?

19        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.

20        Q.   Now, in fact, this document here before us refers to a list of

21     goods at Article 2 of the decree on special conditions of traffic of

22     goods and services in the Official Gazette of the Republika Srpska,

23     number 1693.  You see that reference?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  And if we could have, please, 65 ter 4079.

Page 29402

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  While that is coming up, Mr. Elderkin, the break

 2     will be at 10.40 and not at 10.30.  That will be a shortened break of the

 3     20 minutes instead of the usual 25.  Thank you.

 4             MR. ELDERKIN:  And I may be done by then, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  And if we could scroll down on the B/C/S page.

 7     And I see in the English, there doesn't appear to be a second page.

 8     There should be a translation of Article 2.  It should be page 2.

 9     Perfect.  Article 2.

10        Q.   And so you see this is the decree which was referred to in the

11     letter from the ministry we just looked at?

12        A.   I think this refers to the needs of the military:  Maize, wheat,

13     beans, salt, detergents, and so on, lard.  There was no need for me to

14     deal in that, nor did I.  One can see that from the specifications on the

15     invoices that were issued when the representatives of DutchBat took

16     delivery of the goods.  The goods listed here in Article 2 are not

17     mentioned in any of the invoices.

18        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir.  I just wanted to take this

19     logically so that it's as clear to us as it is to you.  But this is the

20     decree on special conditions of traffic and goods and services which was

21     referred to in the letter we just saw; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   And do you recall that the letter specified that the Podrinje

24     company was not permitted to trade the goods listed in Article 2 of this

25     decree with DutchBat?

Page 29403

 1        A.   They didn't list them by kind.  It was only mentioned that

 2     Article 2 from the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska listed goods.  My

 3     people in my office had that Official Gazette and we abided by it.  So we

 4     traded only in goods we were permitted to trade in by the staff, Main

 5     Staff, and by the government.

 6        Q.   And you already, in fact, referred to the goods listed in

 7     Article 2, and those included wheat, wheat flour, corn, corn flour,

 8     sugar, oil, lard, beans, salt, rice, and dairy products, as well as other

 9     basic goods, and anything else which the ministry might decide; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.  That is true because these were strategic commodities, and

12     the ministry decided there.  There was no need for us to ask for that, to

13     request it at all.

14        Q.   And you were not permitted to sell these strategic commodities to

15     the DutchBat according to the letter from the ministry that we just saw;

16     is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we see 65 ter 4073, please.

19        Q.   Now, this is a bill from the Podrinje company to UNPROFOR, dated

20     the 17th of February 1995, and signed by yourself; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.

22        Q.   And on this occasion, the goods sold to DutchBat were beer, wine,

23     and soft drinks; that's right?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   And no food appears on this bill?

Page 29404

 1        A.   No, there is no food there.

 2             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we see again 5D1173, please.

 3        Q.   And we already looked at this bill which is from the 5th of May;

 4     and, here, the goods that were sold to DutchBat were beer, juice, soft

 5     drinks, and some cake.  No other food appears on the bill apart from the

 6     cake, does it?

 7        A.   That's correct, just cakes.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could have 5D1172, please.

 9        Q.   Now, again, we've already seen this document this morning.  Could

10     you tell us what period does this report cover, please?

11        A.   I think that the reports were submitted quarterly, every three

12     months.

13        Q.   And this report shows the profits that were being made by the

14     Podrinje company under the contract with DutchBat; is that correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   But it does not identify which goods were actually -- which kind

17     of goods were actually being sold, does it?

18        A.   Since copies of bills were sent both to the brigade and the

19     municipal authorities, the itemized reports they had; but this is a

20     summary report based on those invoices and bills.  So this is a quarterly

21     report for the business that was done in the three month periods, item by

22     item.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we have 65 ter 4074, please.

24        Q.   Now, this is an information report dated the 2nd of May 1995.

25     Who was this sent to?

Page 29405

 1        A.   We were under an obligation to send those documents to the

 2     military and civilian authorities, to the government, and to the General

 3     Staff, too.  And this is for the period from the 1st of March 1995 until

 4     the 1st of May 1995, so it's a two-month period.

 5        Q.   And, in fact, this shows all of the sales made by the Podrinje

 6     company to DutchBat during that two-month period; is that correct?

 7        A.   I think so, yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   And the total value of those sales was over 102.000 Deutschmarks,

 9     wasn't it?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   And more than half of that was from sales of beer; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   And, in fact, almost all of the sales were of drinks, more than

15     100.000 Deutschmarks; and apart from drinks, the only sales of food was

16     of cakes, which was for the value of some 1.500 Deutschmarks; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   Now, at page 8, lines 24 to 25, today, you said:

20             "The logistics support comprised the provision of food stuffs,

21     bread, fruit, vegetables, beer, cans, and other food stuffs."

22             Now, the only food stuffs we've seen sold to DutchBat in these

23     invoices is cake, isn't it?

24        A.   Well, you probably don't have the invoices, but food and

25     vegetables, all the food stuffs that were not listed in Article 2 of the

Page 29406

 1     Official Gazette, the ones that couldn't be traded, they were sold.  You

 2     probably just don't have the relevant invoices, but I do think that

 3     deliveries were made of fruit, vegetables, and cakes.

 4        Q.   Thank you very much, witness.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:  And I don't have any further questions.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.

 7             Is there re-examination?

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Just one question, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then go ahead.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ilic, in the course of your business

12     cooperation with the Dutch Battalion, did there come a time that they --

13     when they asked you to deliver goods, that you were not able to deliver

14     to them?

15        A.   Well, I don't think so.  They also were aware of our capabilities

16     and of all those things, so that they did not make any special request

17     that we would not be able to meet, apart from the goods that are listed

18     in Article 2.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any further

20     questions, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

22             Mr. Ilic, we have no further questions for you.  We are finished

23     with your testimony.  You are free to go.  Our staff will assist you and

24     facilitate your return back home at the earliest.  On behalf of the Trial

25     Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over and also wish you a

Page 29407

 1     safe journey back home.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll do the documents after the break; make sure

 5     you have them ready.  Twenty minutes.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  So, documents.  Mr. Petrusic, you have five

 9     documents which I see here on the list.

10             Any objection from the Prosecution?

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  None, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  And from the other Defence teams?  So thank you.

13     These documents are all admitted.  Then we have the Prosecution list,

14     seven documents.

15             Any objections, Ms. Fauveau -- sorry, Mr. Petrusic?  Pardon.

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

18             Any objections from the other Defence teams?  None.  So these

19     seven documents are also admitted, and we can move to the next witness.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, Madam.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  And you're most welcome at this Tribunal.  You are

24     about to start giving evidence as a Defence witness for General Miletic.

25     Before you do so, our rules require that you make a solemn declaration to

Page 29408

 1     the effect that you will be testifying the truth.  A text is being given

 2     to you now, please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn

 3     undertaking with us.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I solemnly

 5     declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

 6     truth.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, ma'am.  You will be asked some questions

 8     by -- please make yourself comfortable.  You will be asked some questions

 9     by Ms. Fauveau, and then we will see who else will have some questions

10     for you.

11             Ms. Fauveau.

12             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13                           WITNESS:  MAJA SPIROSKI

14                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

15                           Examination by Ms. Fauveau:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you let's know your name?

17        A.   My name is Maja Spiroski, nee Miletic.

18        Q.   What was your education, which studies did you do?

19        A.   I have a degree in dentistry, and I specialised in dental

20     prosthetics.

21        Q.   What is your connection with General Miletic?

22        A.   He is my father.

23        Q.   What is your birth date?

24        A.   I was born on the 10th of July, 1977, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Where were you born?

Page 29409

 1        A.   Your Honours, I was born in Zadar, the Republic of Croatia.

 2        Q.   What is your nationality?

 3        A.   Well, I declare myself as a Serb, but I have both Croatian and

 4     the Serbian citizenship.

 5        Q.   What is the nationality of your mother?

 6        A.   Your Honours, my mother is a Croat.

 7        Q.   Do you have a brother or a sister?

 8        A.   Yes, I have a brother.

 9        Q.   Are you married?

10        A.   Yes, I am married.

11        Q.   What is the nationality of your husband?

12        A.   My husband is Macedonian, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Is your brother married?

14        A.   Yes, he is married.

15        Q.   What is the nationality of the wife of your brother, or brother's

16     wife?

17        A.   His wife is a Croat, Your Honours.

18        Q.   Where did you live before the beginning of war in ex-Yugoslavia?

19        A.   Up until the beginning of the war, we lived in Zadar, Croatia.

20        Q.   Could you tell us in which year you left Zadar?

21        A.   We left Zadar in the summer of 1991, right at the beginning of

22     the summer of that year.

23        Q.   With whom did you live in Zadar during the last year before you

24     left Zadar?

25        A.   Well, the last year, 1991, before we had left, and in the last

Page 29410

 1     part of 1990, my mother, my brother, and myself lived in Zadar.  My

 2     father was away in Belgrade for his studies, so he was not with us that

 3     year.

 4        Q.   Could you tell us why you left Zadar?  Why did you leave Zadar?

 5        A.   Well, in 1991, it was a very difficult year.  It was a period of

 6     unrest throughout Croatia, but it was felt for the most part in Zadar,

 7     because the population there was of mixed ethnicity, and there was a lot

 8     of army personnel there.  So I remember this whole year as a series of

 9     unpleasant situations at school, and in our environment in general.

10             But at that time, I was not so much offended by what people were

11     saying about Serbs, because I did not feel at that time that I was a

12     Serb.  I felt that I was a Yugoslav, and it didn't matter to me what

13     ethnic background people had.

14             Whereas, what people were saying about the Yugoslav Peoples' Army

15     and the military personnel in general, that really I found it, because I

16     took it personally as attacks on my father and by extension on our whole

17     family.

18        Q.   When you left Zadar in 1991, who were you with?  With whom did

19     you leave?

20        A.   I left Zadar with my brother.

21        Q.   What happened about your mother, for your mother?

22        A.   My mom remained in Zadar for a while, up until September or

23     thereabouts.

24        Q.   Why did your mother stay in Zadar after you left?

25        A.   Well, my mom had a job in Zadar; on the other hand, we were a

Page 29411

 1     typical [as interpreted] army family.  We did not follow our father as he

 2     was moving from post to post.  My mom worked in Zadar and my brother and

 3     I went to school, and we expected that things would calm down and that we

 4     would go back to Zadar.  My brother was about to start his university

 5     studies, so the situation for him was a little bit different, but I

 6     expected fully that I would go back to Zadar to reunite with my mother

 7     because nobody really expected the war to break out.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 9     go asked slow down a little bit.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau, will you look into that,

11     please.  Thank you.

12             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I would ask you to speak a bit slower, because the interpreters

14     have some problems.  You are speaking a bit too fast, much too fast.  And

15     also, for the transcript, I think there is a mistake at page 28, lines 6

16     and 7.  Could you repeat what you said.

17             You were a family -- a typical family of militaries, or

18     non-typical family of militaries?

19        A.   We were not a typical army family.  In the course of their

20     service, army personnel would be moved from post to post and their

21     families usually followed them; but up until the age of 13, from my

22     birth, and my brother up until his 20th year, we lived in Zadar and so

23     did my mother.  My father was with us unless he was posted somewhere

24     else.

25        Q.   You said that your brother was supposed to start his studies.

Page 29412

 1     Where did he go to when he left Zadar?

 2        A.   My brother went to Sarajevo, to the university there.

 3        Q.   Why did he choose to go to Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Well, both brothers and sister of my father lived in Sarajevo, so

 5     that my brother and I would always spend at least a part of your summer

 6     and winter vacations in Sarajevo.  So it was quite natural that once we

 7     started our university studies that we would do that in Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   What happened, where did you go to?

 9        A.   Well, at the time when we left Sarajevo, my brother and I, we

10     were --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  When we left Zadar.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- my brother and I, we went to

13     Sarajevo.  My brother remained in town for a while, and I went to stay

14     with my father's relatives in the country -- in the countryside.  Then we

15     went back to Sarajevo.  It became clear that at that time we would not be

16     going back to Zadar, and we were trying to find some solution for my

17     education.  At the time, I was about to enroll in secondary school.

18             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And, finally, where did you go to secondary school?

20        A.   In the end, I went to the secondary school in Belgrade.  It was a

21     dentistry school.

22        Q.   What were your first impressions in Belgrade?  How did you get

23     used to living in Belgrade?

24        A.   Well, I found it hard to accommodate to life in Belgrade.

25     Belgrade is much bigger than the town where I grew up, and I had problems

Page 29413

 1     at school at the time.  Well, language was the same, but the script was

 2     the problem for me.  Because in Serbia, Cyrillic was used much more.  I

 3     didn't really know it, because in Croatia we mostly used the Latin

 4     alphabet.  So, right at the beginning, I had some problems while I was

 5     coming to terms with the Cyrillic alphabet and while I was getting used

 6     to the environment.  But later on, things did improve.

 7        Q.   During the first few months -- during those first few months in

 8     Belgrade, where did you live?

 9        A.   Your Honours, when we arrived from Bosnia, so it was in early

10     August 1991, I lived with some friends of my mother and father's, Zoran

11     and Kata Matijic.

12        Q.   Where were your parents at the time?

13        A.   Up until the 13th of September, my mom was in Zadar, and my dad,

14     at that time, still lived in the barracks.  My brother was in Sarajevo.

15        Q.   And when your mother arrived in Belgrade, were you together?

16        A.   No.  For a certain period of time, I think it was about a month

17     and a half, we were apart.  We lived in the same city but in three

18     different places.  My mom lived with -- with some other friends of ours,

19     at Dolcol; I was with Aunt Kata and Uncle Zoki; and my father was in the

20     barracks in Dedinje.  It was only in November that we managed to rent an

21     apartment.

22             It was not until April 1992 that we got some premises from the

23     army, and they then had to be refurbished in order to be fit for

24     habitation, to turn them into a proper apartment.

25        Q.   During the period, so after you arrived in Belgrade and until the

Page 29414

 1     end of 1995, did you have any contact at all with your friends in Zadar?

 2        A.   Throughout the war, I was in contact only with one friend,

 3     girlfriend.  Up until the beginning of the war, we had been best friends

 4     and our friendship survived.  She's a Croat; she remained in Zadar.  In

 5     late 1991, she moved to Zagreb, and it was possible to exchange letters,

 6     to have a correspondence with Zagreb, because letters went through

 7     Hungary, so that we were able to exchange letters up until the end of the

 8     war.

 9        Q.   Do you have any idea at all are where your father was between

10     1992 and the end of 1995?

11        A.   Yes.  My father was in the army of Republika Srpska.

12        Q.   Was he coming home every now and then?

13        A.   Yes.  He would come home approximately every three months.  I

14     can't now tell you that.  But on the average, he would be home every

15     three months, and then he would stay a couple of days.

16        Q.   Did he come in 1995?

17        A.   Yes, Your Honours, in 1995, just as he did in the previous years.

18        Q.   Do you remember until when he would have come to Belgrade

19     in 1995?

20        A.   I think that he came, I think, in late March; and the next time

21     the it was for my birthday, the 10th.  He arrived a few days before my

22     birthday, and he was in Belgrade then.

23        Q.   Do you remember the date of his arrival in Belgrade?

24        A.   He arrived on Friday.  I remember that quite well because

25     the 10th, my birthday, was on Monday that year.  He arrived in -- on

Page 29415

 1     Friday, and that was the 7th of July.

 2        Q.   And what happened while he was there in Belgrade in July 1995?

 3     Can you describe the days that follow the 7th of July?

 4        A.   Your Honours, well, just before that, I think in June - I can't

 5     give you the exact date - my father was promoted to the rank of general.

 6     So on the 7th, when he came home, he told us in the afternoon that he

 7     would like to celebrate the fact that he was promoted, and also my

 8     birthday, and perhaps the best thing would be to have a single feast to

 9     celebrate both occasions.

10             So that afternoon, my father invited some of our family friends;

11     and then on Saturday, the next day, and the day after that, we had people

12     for lunch.  And since the apartment was on the small side, the agreement

13     was that my people, my friends, would come on the 10th, the day of my

14     birthday, and they did come for the party on the 10th in the evening.

15        Q.   You told us that friends of the family arrived on the Saturday

16     and the day after that.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Why didn't the friends of the family come all in one go?

19        A.   Your Honours, the apartment was really small and it was simpler

20     to divide them up over the period of two days.

21        Q.   You told us that your friends arrived on the 10th.  Do you

22     remember how you spent the day of the 10th and then the 11th of July?

23        A.   Yes, Your Honours, I remember the 10th very well.  As enrollment

24     at the university was almost over, it was the last day that was possible,

25     so I spent the whole morning at the university.  In the evening, my

Page 29416

 1     friends arrived, and that was the first time I tasted alcohol, so all

 2     that really sticks in my memory.  On the 11th, I slept in, which I didn't

 3     usually do in the morning.  I remember that on the 11th, at around 6.00

 4     or 7.00, my aunt rang up from Pale, and she spoke to my father.  I know

 5     that.

 6             I remember that after that, Daddy was quite surprised and a

 7     little bit upset because she had told him that Srebrenica had fallen and

 8     he didn't know that before.  Later on, at 7.30, it was announced on the

 9     news.

10        Q.   Do you remember when General Miletic left Belgrade?

11        A.   Yes, I remember that very well, Your Honours.  It was early in

12     the morning of the 12th.  I remember we said goodbye, I even remember

13     what he was wearing, and I remember that I waved goodbye to him from the

14     window.  The whole scene is very vivid in my memory.

15        Q.   Did you go to Zadar after the war?

16        A.   Yes, yes, Your Honours, I did, in the year 2000 and in the year

17     2001.

18        Q.   Could you perhaps tells more about your relationship with your

19     father, General Miletic.  As a father, what he was he like?

20        A.   Your Honours, I was very lucky, I have to tell you, because my

21     father was very understanding.  We could communicate with few words.

22     He's a very mild man.  He is not a difficult man.  We love each other

23     very much, and we understand each other really well.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.

25             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no other questions.

Page 29417

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Merci, Madam.

 2             Mr. Zivanovic.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No questions for the witness.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any of the Defence teams wishes to put questions?

 5     I would imagine there isn't anyone, so that's the position.

 6             Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, just a very few questions --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please go ahead.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- Mr. President.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

11        Q.   Good morning, Ms. Spiroski.  My name is it Peter McCloskey, I

12     represent the Prosecution, and I will just have a very few questions for

13     you this morning.

14             You said that your father's departure back to the war was a very

15     vivid memory.  Can you tell us who he went back to the war with, if

16     anyone?

17        A.   Are you asking about July 1995?

18        Q.   That point after your birthday.

19        A.   Your Honours, I remember -- I don't know a lot about makes of

20     cars, but I remember very well that it was a luxury car, black metallic

21     in colour.  This was unusual because Daddy didn't usually use a car like

22     that, either when coming or going, but I don't remember whether there was

23     anyone else inside the car.  I waved to him from the window and watched

24     him as he got into the car.

25        Q.   Was he driving, or did he have a driver?

Page 29418

 1        A.   No.  He wasn't driving, Your Honour.  There was a driver.

 2        Q.   And who was the driver?

 3        A.   Well, believe me, I don't know.  The driver did not get out of

 4     the car.

 5        Q.   Had that car -- had your father arrived in that fancy car a few

 6     days earlier?

 7        A.   Your Honours, when Daddy arrived in Belgrade, he arrived between

 8     2.00 and 3.00 p.m.  It was around lunchtime, and a driver came with him

 9     and we offered him lunch.  That was usual.  If somebody came with him, we

10     would invite them to lunch, but I didn't go outside so I didn't see what

11     sort of car he had used on arrival.

12        Q.   Was the driver that he arrived with the same driver that he left

13     with a few days later?

14        A.   Your Honours, when Daddy was going back, the driver did not get

15     out of the car, so I didn't see who the driver was.  I saw the driver who

16     came with him on arrival.

17        Q.   So, aside from those two brief times, did you see the driver?

18     Did he come by to check in with your father or take him around town

19     somewhere or anything like that that you remember?

20        A.   Your Honours, it's possible that he took him around town because

21     on Monday, Daddy went out to do some errands.  But I don't know whether

22     that was the driver he went back with, because on the day he went back,

23     the driver didn't come inside.

24        Q.   Did you make an effort to go look for any photos of your

25     18th birthday party and your father's celebration for becoming general?

Page 29419

 1        A.   Your Honours, that was a very difficult time.  Most of our

 2     belongings had been left behind in Zadar, so unfortunately I didn't have

 3     a camera.  I would have loved to have taken photographs of many special

 4     times during my schooling; but, unfortunately, I was I wasn't able to and

 5     I wasn't able to do that on the birthday.

 6        Q.   Well, there were lots of adults and military folks, and we know

 7     from this case that they liked to do video, and people -- everybody likes

 8     to do video of special occasions and photographs.  Did you make any

 9     effort yourself; or are you aware, did the Defence, in talking to you,

10     did anyone make any effort to see if there is anymore record of this

11     party or this weekend?

12        A.   Your Honours, I believe the Defence lawyers tried to find that;

13     but as for videos or photographs in our house, I would have known about

14     that.  But it's something I would love to have if such things existed.  I

15     wouldn't rest until I had got hold of those photos or videos, because

16     that was a special family occasion for us.

17        Q.   Well, we would like to have them, too.  That's one thing we have

18     in common, but sometimes those things don't exist.  Were there any

19     military people at that party your father had, any other colonels or

20     generals?

21        A.   Yes, of course.  There was Pero Djurdjic.  I think he was a

22     colonel at the time or a lieutenant-colonel, I am not sure.  He was our

23     Kum; then there was General Romanko Disevic with his wife; There was

24     General - he is a general now; I don't know if he was then - Ivan Djoltic

25     with his wife; and General Banjac.

Page 29420

 1        Q.   And did you have a television at your house then?

 2        A.   Yes, of course.  We got the TV set out of Zadar.

 3        Q.   And it worked okay during this period in July 1995?

 4        A.   Yes, of course, it did.

 5        Q.   And you had a telephone that worked, too?

 6        A.   Yes, we did.

 7        Q.   And was the television on, on the 10th, 11th of July?

 8        A.   Your Honours, from 1991 onwards, when we left Zadar, there was a

 9     TV show that we always watched in our house.  That was the news at 7.30.

10     We watched other news programmes also, but we never missed the news at

11     7.30, because my mother's and my father's families were both at risk, and

12     we followed what the media recorded was happening in Croatia and Bosnia.

13        Q.   Do you remember the station, what station that was, or the name

14     of the programme that you would always watch?

15        A.   Of course, it was the first programme, RTS, RST 1.  They always

16     had the main news programme at 7.30 and still do.

17        Q.   Okay, Doctor.  Thank you very much.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, Mr. McCloskey.

19             Re-examination?

20             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, just one question.

21                           Re-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] You mentioned a number of people who were there

23     at the party back in July 1995.  Were -- the people you mentioned, or

24     some of the people you mentioned, were they all there on the same day, or

25     were some there on one day and others on the other day?

Page 29421

 1        A.   Your Honours, I can't remember now who came on what day.  The

 2     Prosecutor asked me about officers.  There were also other people who

 3     were not officers, but we divided them up over two days.

 4             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]  I have no other questions.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  There are no further questions for you, Madam,

 7     which means your testimony finishes here.  On behalf of the Trial

 8     Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over to give evidence, and

 9     on behalf of everyone here, I also wish you a safe journey back home.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any documents?  So no documents to tender.

13             We can move to the next witness:  Mr. Klacar.

14             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have a little

15     problem.  We didn't think things would go so fast, so the following

16     witness should be here at half past 12.00, but I'll try and make sure he

17     can come early.  Could we perhaps have a break now and possibly call the

18     witness then?

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  No problem.  And in any case, we have no other

20     option.  So we'll have -- let's play it by ear.  Would it be possible for

21     you to check in good time when he could -- the earliest he could come,

22     and then inform us accordingly.  The sitting will resume as soon as he's

23     back, all right?

24             So, however, there will be at least a 20-minute break, at least,

25     okay?  Because that is regular.  Registrar will communicate with

Page 29422

 1     everyone.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I am informed we have one

 3     housekeeping matter that might use the time.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  That we can do, that we can do.

 5             Yes, Mr. Thayer.  Take your time, we are not in a hurry.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you, and

 7     Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

 8             Two housekeeping matters just to follow-up on; some issues that

 9     arose, I think, last week and even the week before.

10             The first is, Your Honours, may recall during the

11     cross-examination of General Simic, there was some confusion as to the

12     date of the death of General Mladic's daughter.  And I think we've

13     arrived at an agreement with Defence Counsel.  After searching various

14     public media sources and other sources, that Ana Mladic, in fact, took

15     her own life on the 24th of March, 1994.  So I think we are able to

16     stipulate among the parties that that was the date of that tragic

17     incident.

18             The second matter I wish to raise, I promised Judge Kwon I would

19     be returning to the Court on this issue from last week, pertains to a

20     question that our friends from the Gvero team raised in connection with

21     the tendering of exhibits for witness Dragisa Masal.  There was an order,

22     a Main Staff order, which was shown to General Masal during his

23     cross-examination.  It was the same order that was entered into evidence

24     through Richard Butler during his testimony.  The version that was shown

25     to General Masal was just a little different.  It's one of the mischiefs

Page 29423

 1     that's created when we have the same document coming from different

 2     archives and sources and it gets a different ERN.

 3             So the question was raised, why was essentially the same document

 4     shown to two different witnesses with two different ERNs with slightly

 5     different markings on them.  There is no great mystery.  I simply pulled

 6     the document by ERN from one file that I have, didn't realise that Butler

 7     had been shown another version.  Subsequently, there is no difference.

 8     There is some difference in markings, but the marks that were shown -- or

 9     that were on the document that were shown to General Masal are immaterial

10     as far as the Prosecution is concerned.

11             Given that, because that was the version that was shown to the

12     witness, we would still ask that that second version be admitted, just so

13     that we know exactly what indeed was shown to the witness, even though

14     it's essentially the same document entered into evidence with Mr. Butler.

15             The other issue related to that exhibit is, we had an English

16     translation for the version shown to Mr. Butler, but no English

17     translation of the version that was shown to General Masal.  So we can

18     get an English translation that also translates the very small

19     handwriting on the version that was sent to or shown to General Masal,

20     although it's, as far as the Prosecution is concerned, not an issue that

21     we had any interest in raising.  It simply says "to file" I think is the

22     only difference in the handwriting shown to General Masal.

23             So I just want to do update the Chamber to that, and the 65 ter

24     document for the document in question is 2669 B, a Main Staff order dated

25     27 May 1995.

Page 29424

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.  Any comments,

 2     any objections to -- as regards the stipulation, I don't think there is

 3     anything you would like to say, as regards the other document that the

 4     Prosecution now wishes to tender for comparative purposes and for

 5     completion purposes.  Okay, no comments.

 6             So go ahead, Mr. Thayer, and do what you said you will be doing.

 7             All right.  We will break now.  In the meantime -- yes?

 8                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I am informed the witness will be here in ten

10     minutes, but I need to -- I think we can still have the break now.  It

11     will be of 20 minutes -- 25 minutes.  We'll have a 25-minute break.

12     Thank you.

13                           --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, Mr. Klacar.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  You've been summoned by General Miletic's Defence

19     team to give evidence in this trial.  Before you do so, however, you are

20     required to make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the

21     truth.  Madam Usher is going to give you the text.  Please stand up, read

22     it out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I begin?  I solemnly declare

24     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25     Is there nothing else?  All right.

Page 29425

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Not for the time being.

 2             Mr. Petrusic.

 3                           WITNESS:  RANKO KLACAR

 4                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Petrusic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Klacar.  First I will

 7     introduce myself.  As you know, my name is Nenad Petrusic; and today, I

 8     will be putting questions to you on behalf of the Defence of General

 9     Miletic.

10             To begin with, please state your first and last name for the

11     record?

12        A.   Ranko Klacar.

13        Q.   I must also ask you at the outset to make a short pause between

14     my question and your answer.  It my be a good idea if you were to observe

15     the cursor on the monitor, and when the cursor stops and the text is

16     complete, you can begin your answer.

17             Tell us, where were you born?

18        A.   In Sarajevo.

19        Q.   How old are you -- or, rather, what is your date of birth?

20        A.   The 10th of April, 1962.

21        Q.   Please, Mr. Klacar, observe the pause.

22             Tell us, what school have you completed?

23        A.   I am a mechanical technician and a driving instructor.

24        Q.   Did you work before the war?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29426

 1        Q.   Can you tell us where?

 2        A.   The military industry, Pretis Vogosca, near Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   And where were you when the war broke out in 1992 on the

 4     territory of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 5        A.   In Sarajevo at home.

 6        Q.   Did you stay there?

 7        A.   No, I fled.  At the beginning of April, I moved to

 8     Serb-controlled territory -- or, what was it called at the time?

 9        Q.   What Serb-controlled territory did you move to?  What town?

10        A.   I was referring to Sarajevo, but the area of Grbavica, and later

11     on, Pale.

12        Q.   Were you conscripted into the army of Republika Srpska; and if

13     so, tell us when?

14        A.   Yes, I was, on the 6th of May.  That's when I joined the army of

15     Republika Srpska, and I stayed there until the end.

16        Q.   What unit did you join?

17        A.   The 2nd Romanija Battalion where I stayed for a few months, and

18     then the rest of the war I spent at military post 3750 in the Main Staff.

19        Q.   What duties did you have in the Main Staff?

20        A.   I was a driver.

21        Q.   As a driver, what unit or sector did you belong to?

22        A.   The rear, logistics; the part of the Main Staff that had to do

23     with logistics and the rear.

24        Q.   Were you issued with a motor vehicle when you were working in

25     logistics?

Page 29427

 1        A.   Yes.  In different periods of time, I was issued with different

 2     vehicles.  So there was more than one vehicle, because this went on from

 3     1992 to 1995.  So I was issued with different vehicles, not all at the

 4     same time, of course.

 5        Q.   In 1995, when performing your job as driver in the Main Staff,

 6     were you assigned to different officers or only one officer?

 7        A.   From 1993 onwards, I was mostly assigned to generals.  And in

 8     1994 and 1995, I was General Stevan Tomic's driver.  He was a

 9     major-general, and he was the one whom I served the longest.

10        Q.   And what sector did Stevan Tomic belong to?

11        A.   He was - I don't know if I'll express myself properly - but he

12     was the chief of finance or assistant commander for financial affairs.  I

13     don't know what is the proper military term for that.  I'm only a driver,

14     after all.

15        Q.   When you say the commander's assistant, are you referring to

16     General Mladic?

17        A.   Yes.  I don't know what he was in terms of establishment, but he

18     was the top man as far as finances went.

19        Q.   And where was his headquarters?

20        A.   His headquarters was in Crna Rijeka, and I was the only driver

21     who was billeted elsewhere in relation to his immediate superior officer.

22     I was in hotel Gora in Han Pijesak, and my immediate superior - the only

23     one I reported to - General Tomic, was billeted in Crna Rijeka, seven or

24     eight kilometres away in Crna Rijeka.

25        Q.   And then did you go from Han Pijesak to Crna Rijeka when summoned

Page 29428

 1     by General Tomic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you recall in 1995 what vehicle were you using?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.  It was a Golf MK II, it was quite new, it had come

 5     from the strategic stockpiles.  It was virtually a new car.  At the time

 6     when I got it, it had 40 kilometres.  It was dark blue; we call it mouse

 7     colour.  It's just one shade later than black; it's dark grey.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us, in the performance of your duties, did you rely

 9     on the transport and traffic service in the Main Staff?

10        A.   Not directly.  The drivers who drove generals were assigned to

11     the generals.  Both the vehicle and the driver were at the disposal of

12     the general in question, and this general was not duty-bound to contact

13     the transport and traffic service to ask for a vehicle.  They, the

14     generals, could use their vehicles and their drivers as needed.  They

15     didn't have to consult or ask for anything from the transport and traffic

16     service.  They didn't have to seek the service's approval.  They only had

17     to speak to their superiors if they wanted to go on a leave of absence or

18     something like that, and they didn't have to look for any approval for

19     the drivers and vehicles.

20        Q.   As you drove General Tomic around the territory of Republika

21     Srpska, did you receive travel orders or any similar papers?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   In 1995, did you travel outside of the territory of Republika

24     Srpska; or, to be more specific, did you travel to Belgrade?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29429

 1        Q.   Can you tell us how often?

 2        A.   Well, I can say with absolute certainty that I went there more

 3     frequently than any other driver in the staff.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us what you mean when you say that, "more frequently

 5     than any other driver"?

 6        A.   Well, the nature of the work of General Tomic, his duties,

 7     required him to go to Belgrade and back all the time.

 8        Q.   Did you receive any travel orders at that time?

 9        A.   No, it was not necessary.

10        Q.   Can you tell me, as you travelled to Belgrade, what license

11     plates did you have on your vehicle?

12        A.   Civilian plates.

13        Q.   Can you tell us what crossings did you use?

14        A.   It would depend on the situation; but in most cases, it was

15     Karakaj, Sepak.  Raca, we used seldom.

16        Q.   And the police manning the crossings, Karakaj and Sepak, did they

17     ever ask you to produce any documents apart from your personal IDs?

18        A.   Well, they wanted to get the vehicle registration booklet.  They

19     wanted the information about the vehicle.

20        Q.   And were there any special permits or approvals that you may have

21     needed?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Mr. Klacar, do you know General Miletic?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   How do you know him?

Page 29430

 1        A.   From the Main Staff.

 2        Q.   Do you know if he had a driver of his own?

 3        A.   At a certain time, yes.

 4        Q.   Could you tell us what time-period we are talking about?

 5        A.   That was in 1995.

 6        Q.   When in 1995, mid-1995?

 7        A.   Late 1995, once he was promoted to the rank of general.

 8        Q.   Were you in a position to drive General Miletic in 1995?

 9        A.   Yes.  I drove him twice, and I had never driven him before.  It

10     was only the two times in 1995.

11        Q.   Can you tell us where did you drive him to?

12        A.   The first time it was to Miljevina from Sarajevo.  It was a

13     turn-off just before the town of Foca.

14        Q.   And the second time?

15        A.   The second time was to Belgrade.

16        Q.   Do you recall when you drove to Belgrade?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you now, to the best of your recollection, tell us when this

19     occurred?

20        A.   Just before the whole hullabaloo around Srebrenica.

21        Q.   When you say events, or to use the term that you yourself used,

22     "hullabaloo around Srebrenica," what do you mean when you say that, "the

23     hullabaloo around Srebrenica"?

24        A.   Well, everybody describes things the way they see them.  I, as a

25     driver, only paid attention to the road leading to Miletici, Zvornik, Han

Page 29431

 1     Pijesak.  It's the same road.  So there was a period when this road was

 2     safe, and it was possible to pass.  Then there were periods when it was

 3     risky if you took this road.  That's what I mean when I use this term,

 4     "hullabaloo."

 5        Q.   Can you tell me, as you set off, was it safe to use this road?

 6        A.   Yes, absolutely.

 7        Q.   And could you tell us, what was the period when it was more

 8     dangerous to use that road, if you compare it to the first time when you

 9     used it with General Miletic?

10        A.   Well, that was the period --

11        Q.   Well, what time-period?

12        A.   Well, let's say some ten days - well, it's difficult to be very

13     specific given the time that has passed - some ten days, give or take a

14     day or two.

15        Q.   Let us now go back to the safe period, the period when the safety

16     of the vehicles passing by that road was not compromised.  Could you

17     please tell us how, in what circumstances, you actually drove Mr. Miletic

18     to Belgrade?  Who called you?  Who told you to do that?

19        A.   Well, I drove General Miletic there on the orders or approval of

20     General Tomic.  I say "approval" because General Stevan Tomic - I was his

21     driver, and actually my vehicle was at Tomic's disposal - approved my

22     secondment to General Miletic and also the use of his vehicle to drive

23     General Miletic there.

24        Q.   Do you recall -- where did you pick up General Miletic?

25        A.   In Crna Rijeka.

Page 29432

 1        Q.   Do you recall how long did it take to travel to Belgrade?

 2        A.   A relatively short time.  It's about 220, 225 kilometres.  If you

 3     don't count in the time that it takes you to get into Belgrade, then you

 4     can dock 15 kilometres away from -- off that figure.  I think it took

 5     about three hours, less than three hours, because we had this nice new

 6     car.

 7        Q.   Do you recall the time when you actually set off from Crna

 8     Rijeka?

 9        A.   Well, as for the exact hour, well, I know that it was about 2.00.

10        Q.   Did you drive General Miletic all the way up to his place?

11        A.   Yes, all the way up to his apartment.

12        Q.   Just a small correction.  Did you say that you arrived in

13     Belgrade at around 2.00?

14        A.   Yes, around 2.00.  I know that, if you allow me to explain.

15        Q.   Yes, please do go ahead.

16        A.   General Miletic expected us to arrive a bit later.  He thought

17     that we would be there at around 3.00, and he actually remarked on how

18     fast I was driving and he commented on it with General Tomic.  They

19     actually cracked a few jokes about that, about my driving.

20        Q.   And can you tell us when did General Tomic and General Miletic

21     exchange those comments?

22        A.   Well, General Miletic, since I left him in Belgrade at his home,

23     he called General Tomic, of course, to let him know that I was fine and

24     that I was on my way back, that the vehicle was fine, and that I would be

25     back.  Then he commented - that's what General Tomic said - he commented

Page 29433

 1     on how fast I had been driving.  Then they made some jokes, and that's

 2     how I recall all this.  I don't know if I have to tell you the jokes.

 3        Q.   Did you return to Crna Rijeka the same day, or did you remain in

 4     Belgrade?

 5        A.   I went back straight away.  I left General Miletic at his

 6     apartment in Belgrade, and I went straight back.

 7        Q.   Did you go up to his apartment?

 8        A.   Yes.  I actually had lunch there.  I was invited to have lunch.

 9        Q.   Mr. Klacar, let us go back, briefly, to the safe part of the

10     passage down the road that you were telling us about.

11             So my question was:  Let us go back to this passage down the road

12     to Konjevic Polje-Zvornik to Karakaj at the time when it was not safe, at

13     that time when there were those events around Srebrenica.  You said that

14     some ten days, give or take two or three days, you passed down that road.

15             Could you tell us if and when you passed down that road in the

16     unsafe period?

17        A.   I can't tell you the exact date, but I was -- well, can I give

18     you the timeline?  At that time-period, the deputy, or one of the

19     assistants to General Tomic, who was absent -- General Tomic was absent.

20     He had actually retired.  He had been absent for a long time, and Captain

21     Petrovic, one of his assistants, insisted that we should go to Zvornik to

22     get some papers that pertained to finances.  I say "insisted" because

23     according to the information that I received from other drivers the day

24     before, it sounded quite unreasonable that one should go to Zvornik

25     taking the Konjevic Polje-Drenica road, in particular the stretch of road

Page 29434

 1     from Milici, all the way down to Zvornik -- well, not to Zvornik, but the

 2     unsafe part was all the way up to Drenica.

 3             He insisted on it, however; and, of course, I did not have the

 4     right to refuse to go there, but I spoke my mind.  I said it was not safe

 5     and I said that we would get killed over those papers, plain and simple.

 6     But he didn't take me seriously, and we set off for Zvornik.  I commented

 7     on it in the vehicle.  I said that we were like showbiz people in the

 8     car, not as soldiers, soldiers who were using the road where they could

 9     expect to be ambushed or encounter combat.  But he really persisted, and

10     at the entrance in Miletici -- or, rather, Milici, we were stopped by

11     civilian policeman in a blew uniform, and he told us that it was not safe

12     and the that the road was impassable, that we could not get to Zvornik.

13             But he was really persistent, he wanted us to continue, and this

14     really irritated me even more.  So we continued, but we ended our trip in

15     Kasaba at the school building.  I don't know whether it was the

16     elementary school or secondary school; I think was the elementary school.

17     But when there was gun fire there, in that area, as we passed by the

18     school, the only thing I could do - because we didn't really have any

19     equipment, we didn't have any weapons or anything - I put the car behind

20     the school building.  There was fighting on the hills around the school,

21     and the school building served as some kind of a shelter to my mind.  We

22     took shelter there until the situation calmed down a little bit, and then

23     we simply went back.

24        Q.   Mr. Klacar, just a few more questions.  Did you take General

25     Miletic back from Belgrade?

Page 29435

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Do you remember that at the time when you took him to Belgrade,

 3     after this, and while the road was still quite, did you go to Belgrade

 4     again?

 5        A.   I can't be certain.  I often went to Belgrade, so going to

 6     Belgrade was not a special event for me.  I may have done, I don't know.

 7     My going to Belgrade with a financial personnel was something routine.

 8     We would go to Belgrade, they would do what they had to do, and we would

 9     come back on the same day and that was it.  You would set out at 8.00,

10     and you would be in the Main Staff in the afternoon.  You could go to

11     Belgrade, conduct your business there, and come back in a normal working

12     day during working hours.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

14     questions at this time?

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

16             Any of the Defence teams have questions for this witness?  I hear

17     none.

18             Mr. Thayer.

19             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  My name is Nelson Thayer, and I will be

22     asking you a few questions on behalf of the Prosecution.

23             My first question, sir, is:  When did you first have any contact

24     with any member of the Defence team for General Miletic?

25        A.   August.  19th of August, or something like that, more or less, I

Page 29436

 1     met the gentleman here.  I think it was the 19th of August, or it I may

 2     have been the 15th.

 3        Q.   And that would have been of 2008 of this year, sir?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   And prior to that, were you ever contacted by any members of the

 6     Defence team, either telephonically or in person?

 7        A.   I don't know what Defence team you are referring to.  I know the

 8     gentleman here, the Counsel.  He called me up, and he said he had

 9     information that it may be possible that I drove General Miletic to

10     Belgrade and that was it.  It was the lawyer who contacted me.

11        Q.   Okay.  And what did he tell you, sir?  You said that he called

12     you and said that he had information and that it was possible that you

13     drove General Miletic to Belgrade.  Tell us what he told you he had in

14     terms of information?

15        A.   He asked me whether I had driven General Miletic to Belgrade, and

16     that was it, in that period of time.

17        Q.   Well, when you say that he told you that he had information, what

18     information did he tell you that he had?

19        A.   He said he had information that I had driven General Miletic to

20     Belgrade.

21        Q.   Did he tell you what the source of that information was?

22        A.   No, not specifically.

23        Q.   And just to make sure, sir, before August of this year, did you

24     have any contact whatsoever with any member of the Miletic Defence team?

25     I understand you said that you knew the counsel, my learned friend, from

Page 29437

 1     the Miletic Defence team and that he contacted you with this information,

 2     but did you have any other contact prior to August of 2008?

 3        A.   No, I did not.

 4        Q.   Let's talk about the actual trip, sir.

 5        A.   Was it August?  You'll allow me to check.  My passport, which I

 6     got for the first time from Bosnia and Herzegovina, was issued on the

 7     19th of August.  We may have met on the 15th of August.  Before that, I

 8     think I saw the gentleman a month before.  My orientation point is when

 9     my passport was issued.  Maybe a month.  The passport is what I am

10     orienting myself by.

11        Q.   Now, let's talk about this -- the actual trip where you went to

12     Belgrade with General Miletic.  Do you recall when - in relation to

13     actually taking trip - you were given this assignment?

14        A.   I don't remember the precise date.

15        Q.   Can you tell us whether it was the same day or --

16        A.   I can't give thank you precise date, that is.

17        Q.   Understood.  That's not my question, though.  I just want to

18     know, for example, were you given the assignment the same day that you

19     drove General Miletic to Belgrade, were you given it the day before, two

20     days before?  Just give the Court some indication, if you could?

21        A.   According to my recollection, on the same day.  I received the

22     order on the same day.

23        Q.   And do you have any recollection whether it was a weekday or on

24     the weekend, sir?

25        A.   Well, no I can't be precise about that.  I can't say.  I couldn't

Page 29438

 1     be sure.  I didn't pay attention to that.  In wartime, all days were the

 2     same, working and non-working alike.

 3        Q.   And I take it that there was nobody else in the car other than

 4     General Miletic, just to be clear?

 5        A.   No, there wasn't.

 6        Q.   And during this three hour trip, did you learn what the purpose

 7     of this trip was, to transport General Miletic to Belgrade?

 8        A.   It was the usual sort of officer's leave to visit their families.

 9        Q.   And if I understood you correctly, you didn't have any other

10     business across the river that day and you returned the same day; is that

11     right?

12        A.   That's correct, yes.

13        Q.   Now, during this time in July of 1995, do you recall, sir, that

14     Slobodan Milosevic had imposed an embargo or a blockade between the two

15     countries?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And are you aware, sir, that in July of 1995 that in order to

18     cross the river into the SRJ, the MUP was notified by the army that army

19     personnel would be crossing?

20        A.   Well, that was up to the security organ.  As the driver, I didn't

21     have any problems.  It was up to the security organ.

22        Q.   And do you remember, sir, was it common for drivers like yourself

23     to carry two sets of license plates in their vehicle, one civilian and

24     one military, specifically for the purposes of being able to travel back

25     and forth?

Page 29439

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So when you travelled across, you had civilian plates, and you

 3     had to switch those plates to go across the river; is that fair to say?

 4        A.   SS, that was the letters, SS.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, I want to show you a document.

 6             MR. THAYER:  And, Mr. President, if we could block the broadcast

 7     of this document.  We can talk about it, but it just needs to be not

 8     broadcast.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  That will be taken care of.  Thank you.

10             MR. THAYER:  And if we could see 65 ter number 04080, please.

11        Q.   Sir, you were shown, I think, probably just a slightly different

12     copy of this same document during your proofing session.  I am showing

13     you this version because it's a little easier to read, I think, than the

14     copy you were shown.  What it is, I think you'll recognise, is - I see

15     you're shaking your head - an intercept that was made by the MUP at an

16     interception site that was operated by the armija or the army of Bosnia

17     and Herzegovina 2nd Corps?

18             MR. THAYER:  If we could scroll down little bit.

19        Q.   This continues on the next page.  If you look at number 519 down

20     there --

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   -- it says that on 8 July 1995, on a certain frequency that's

23     listed there, at 2210 hours, they intercepted this telegram.  You were

24     shown this telegram, were you not, sir?

25        A.   This here?  No.

Page 29440

 1        Q.   Well, let me talk about it, and we'll see if that refreshes your

 2     recollection about being shown it.  If we see the heading here, it

 3     "General Staff, Army of Republika Srpska," strictly confidential number,

 4     and then the date, 8 July, 1995.  Do you see that, sir?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we go to the next page, do you see the top there?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And we don't have an English translation, sir.  Can you just read

 9     what that says, starting from the top?

10        A.   From the very top:  "Authorisation for travel to the SRJ,

11     delivered by the MUP --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Delivered to.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29441

 1   (redacted)

 2        A.   This second page.  [In English] Next page.

 3        Q.   No, the section that you just read, sir?

 4        A.   [Interpretation] The second page, yes; the first, no.

 5        Q.   Now, you mentioned that --

 6             MR. THAYER:  -- actually, we can close out this document and

 7     resume broadcast, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll do that.  Thank you.  Okay.

 9             Let's proceed and conclude, Mr. Thayer, please.

10             MR. THAYER:

11        Q.   Now, sir, you mentioned that when you travelled, as far as you

12     recall, you didn't have think to carry any documents with you, correct,

13     other than your personal identification, no special documents?

14        A.   And also the documents pertaining to the car and the passengers

15     as well.

16        Q.   Were you aware that General Miletic on the 8th of July had

17     authorised your travel to Belgrade for the dates between the 9th and the

18     11th of July 1995, sir?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   You told us that when you were in Belgrade, General Miletic

21     called General Tomic and had a conversation.  Where was General Tomic at

22     the time, to your knowledge?

23        A.   In Meline probably.  He was undergoing treatment, most probably

24     in Meline.  He was away from the staff, from the headquarters that's in

25     Herceg Novi.

Page 29442

 1        Q.   And, in July 1995, who was General Miletic's regular driver?

 2        A.   Milos Zekic.

 3        Q.   And do you remember who General Tolimir's regular driver was in

 4     July of 1995?

 5        A.   Mile, his last name escapes me now.  His first name was Mile; he

 6     lives in Sokolac.  Mile, he was a young driver, he was the youngest of

 7     all the drivers.  He was a regular soldier, and he was the only regular

 8     soldier who became a driver.  His last name escapes me now.  I've known

 9     him a long time.

10        Q.   And who was General Gvero's regular drive in July of 1995, sir?

11        A.   Dragomir Rajak, a professional driver.  He was a civilian serving

12     in the army.  That was his status, a civilian working in the army.

13        Q.   And can we get a spelling for his last name, please, sir.

14        A.   Dragomir Rajak, R-a-j-a-k.  Yes, that's right.

15        Q.   And have you been in any contact with him since the war?

16        A.   Since war?  No.  No, personal contact.  I only heard that he

17     lives in Belgrade.  Whether that's correct, I don't know.

18        Q.   Just a couple of more questions, sir.  Do you know who drove

19     General Miletic back from Belgrade?  You said that --

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... but do you know who did?

22        A.   No, no.

23        Q.   You told us about the first trip during which you drove General

24     Miletic to Miljevina?

25        A.   Miljevina, yes, yes.

Page 29443

 1        Q.   Can you tell us, if you remember, what the purpose of that trip

 2     was?

 3        A.   To visit his mother, I think.

 4        Q.   And do you remember when that was?

 5        A.   Sometime about 15 days before going to Belgrade, in that period.

 6     I can't be precise, that's impossible, but in that period.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions.

 8        A.   Thank you, too.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Petrusic, any --

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I have no additional questions,

11     Your Honour.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  We have finished with your testimony, Mr. Klacar,

13     which means that you are free to go.  I wish to thank you for having come

14     over to give testimony, and I also wish you a safe journey back home.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  No documents, I take it.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

20             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just the one intercept.  That's 4080,

21     and if that may be place placed under seal, please.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Any objections?

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Other Defence teams, I take it you are not

25     interested in this, basically.  All right.

Page 29444

 1             So that concludes that witness.  Is the next witness present?

 2             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, Your Honour, but we

 3     have no other witness for today.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We heard three witnesses anyway, today.

 5     So is there any other housekeeping matters or other business that you

 6     would like to?  I see Mr. Vanderpuye entering the courtroom with good or

 7     bad tidings.  Do you have any you would wish to raise.

 8             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then we stand adjourned until tomorrow.

10     Tomorrow, please do remember that the sitting is in the afternoon at

11     2.15.  Thank you.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of

14                           2008, at 2.15 p.m.