1 Tuesday, 16 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So, good morning, everybody. Good morning, Madam
7 Registrar. Could you kindly call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Prosecution today is represented today by
11 Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Mitchell. Defence teams, I notice the absence of
12 Mr. Ostojic, Ms. Nikolic, and that's it. The witness is also here,
13 present in the courtroom.
14 Good morning to you, Mr. Jevdjevic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to conclude your testimony today. But
17 before we do so, there is a couple of words to you, Madam Fauveau.
18 We have seen, of course, your filings about the witnesses that
19 have been withdrawn and the witness schedule for January. Do I take it
20 that that will be it? In other words, after the second of those two
21 witnesses in January, you will rest your case?
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we will no doubt
23 put a filing for the admission of certain documents through a written
24 filing, but that will be it.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you very much. And I reckon --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. I reckon that that will more or less happen
3 any time between the 21st and the 22nd of January, which means,
4 Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Josse, that you should be prepared to start
5 immediately after that. I mean, aim at those dates or at latest the
6 following Monday, which will be the 26th, I think, or something like
8 Yes, Mr. Josse.
9 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour. Nothing to add at this
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And do you have a rough estimate now as to
12 the estimated -- as to the length of your case?
13 MR. JOSSE: Not really.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Not really. Okay. Thank you. That's why you need
15 the Christmas break to think about it, I suppose.
16 MR. JOSSE: We certainly do.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All right.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. McCloskey. We wanted to communicate
20 something to you. We will come to it later on. In the meantime, we are
21 looking to finding the specific document number.
22 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, everyone.
1 WITNESS: MILENKO JEVDJEVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpretation]
3 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
4 Q. Good morning, Colonel.
5 Now, we ended yesterday with -- where I had to interrupt you in
6 your answer because we would have caused a scheduling problem with the
7 next Court
8 again, and it was actually an awkwardly worded question. So let me just
9 try to clear it up. It had two parts, and the first part was I'd asked
10 you if, given it is the Prosecution's position, that on the afternoon and
11 evening of 11 July the VRS was not -- didn't really know where the 28th
12 Division was, how was it that you were able to pack up the coms van and
13 go towards Bratunac.
14 The next part of that question was, how did you do it without an
15 order. But let's do the first part first and then we can -- I'll ask the
16 question about the order again. So if you could just answer the first
18 A. At that point, shortly before packing up the communications
19 centre at the Pribicevac IKM whereby the Pribicevac point ceased to
20 exist, the army of Republika Srpska in that sector of the front had
21 general information that the main bulk of the 28th Division, and I am
22 thinking about the armed soldiers, was grouping in the northwestern
23 section of the enclave, from Srebrenica towards Konjevic Polje and
24 Kasaba, and that they were intending to break through towards Tuzla
25 the main bulk of their forces. And a minor part of the forces because of
1 disorganisation and difference of opinion, that part would go towards
2 Zepa. We also had information that their own civilian population was
3 ordered or given instructions to relocate to the UNPROFOR base in
4 Potocari. This is the information we had in the afternoon hours on the
5 11th of July.
6 When -- in the afternoon, General Mladic left the Pribicevac IKM
7 as well as General Mladic [as interpreted] and General Zivanovic, when
8 they all went towards Srebrenica, listening to the development of the
9 situation via the communications while I was by myself at the IKM, I
10 concluded that the battle order of our forces had already advanced far
11 forward and that now it was possible to create a situation that our units
12 would be used in the fighting with the enemy column which probably
13 intended to break out towards Tuzla
14 At that point, the existence of the IKM at Pribicevac - having in
15 mind this development of the situation - became from a military and
16 strategic point totally unjustified because the forward command post must
17 jump forward in order to be able to successfully serve as a command post
18 for future assignments. So being guided by this as well as by the fact
19 that I would be in a position to be left in this vast area alone with my
20 soldiers and perhaps in a way be faced with the problem of some possible
21 groups that were trying to break through in that section, I probably
22 reported to the command post communications centre in Vlasenica and told
23 them that I was switching off my equipment and that I was going towards
25 This was very logical for me. It was very logical for me, and
1 when I arrived at Bratunac I understood that my commander of the IKM,
2 General Krstic, was very satisfied with this move that I made.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Petrusic.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one short brief
5 correction on page 4, line 5. Instead of the word "Mladic" it should
6 state "General Krstic."
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Let's proceed. I take it
8 you agree to that, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, absolutely, I am sure he didn't say Mladic
10 twice. If he did, it was a mistake.
11 Q. So, Colonel, where did you get -- specifically where did you get
12 the information that the -- or the location of the Muslim forces on the
13 11th of July? Where did you get that information from or who did you get
14 that information from in particular?
15 A. This was information received through intelligence action.
16 Specifically, at the IKM at a distance of 150 metres from me there was a
17 vehicle with a monitoring or tapping devices for enemy communications,
18 and it was crewed, by the Drina Corps force surveillance platoon under
19 the command of Captain Mirko --
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last name.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- he was for the needs of the
22 Krivaja 95 operation, posted a listening post or a listening group which
23 kept us informed any time they discovered an important message among the
24 Muslim forces.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, the interpreters didn't catch the name
2 of Mirko. What was his name?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mirko Petrovic.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. So you received the information regarding the location of the
7 Muslim troops from Mirko Petrovic or his team?
8 A. We received the information from that crew of his that was at
9 Pribicevac in a separate vehicle where they had their own equipment and
10 antennas to listen in on enemy communications in the Srebrenica enclave.
11 Other information we would receive personally from commanders who were in
12 combat contact with the enemy where they were able with less precisions
13 to see more or less in which section of the enclave the forces of the
14 28th Division were grouping.
15 Q. Well, what did those commanders, those VRS commanders, which
16 commanders told you on the 11th where the 28th Division was? For
17 example, what did Vinko Pandurevic tell you where the 28th Division was
18 on the afternoon or evening of the 11 July?
19 A. The commanders who happened to be in contact with the forces of
20 the 28th Division, we were able to receive information about what they
21 could actually see along the axis of their attack where the enemy was
22 moving, to the left, to the right, or backwards. So the information that
23 we would receive from the commanders were pretty sketchy, especially from
24 positions of the Milici Brigade which was holding elevations at Ravni,
25 Buljim, and Bracan. They didn't move from those positions to execute
1 attacks. So they were able to notice better the grouping of those forces
2 because that grouping actually was moving towards that sector of our
4 Q. Sir, it's going to be really a long day if you can't focus on my
5 question. My question was very simple. What did Vinko Pandurevic tell
6 you about the location of the 28th Division on the afternoon or evening
7 of 11 July, if anything?
8 A. He specifically didn't tell me anything what was where --
9 specifically, we just had general information that they were grouping in
10 the northwestern section of the enclave.
11 Q. Sir, my question was what, if anything, did Vinko Pandurevic
12 report to you about the location of the 28th Division? I will insist
13 that you answer my questions, please. I am not asking you about general
14 information, sir.
15 A. He didn't tell me anything specific because it was not his job to
16 inform me about anything.
17 Q. And what did Krstic tell you, if anything, about the location of
18 the 28th Division on the afternoon or evening of 11 July?
19 A. He didn't also have any obligation to inform me about it, so he
20 didn't. I told you where I had the information from, and this
21 information was something that was available more or less to all the
22 commanders who took part in that operation.
23 Q. What, if anything, did Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric, the chief of
24 intelligence of the Drina Corps, tell about the location of the 28th
25 Division on the afternoon or evening of 11 July?
1 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric knew what I knew because the
2 information from the radio surveillance platoon first arrived to the IKM
3 where I was, so we were informed at the same time of all the information;
4 meaning, General Krstic, Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric, and myself.
5 Q. Okay. Let's go to the second part of that question. I believe
6 you testified on direct that you -- you did this without orders. Is that
7 true? You just picked up this van and left without receiving any orders
8 from anyone?
9 A. Yes, that is what I said and that is true.
10 Q. Why didn't you call General Krstic and ask him?
11 A. Perhaps at that point in time going towards Srebrenica and
12 probably after that towards Bratunac, General Krstic was not accessible
13 from where I was for communication purposes, but for me this was quite a
14 usual matter for me to be able to make a decision of that type myself,
15 that was in the spirit of the overall purposes of the execution of the
16 assignment itself.
17 Q. Sir, do you remember why you didn't call General Krstic and ask
18 him? I don't want you to speculate. When start an answer with "perhaps"
19 or "probably" or "maybe," that's not very helpful. So if you don't
20 remember, fine, but do you remember why you didn't call Krstic to get his
21 approval to move?
22 A. I didn't call him about that because I believed that this was
23 normal decision for me to make and that it was quite normal for me to
24 start -- to follow him so that he could effectively command the units
25 from the point in time when he, too, had left Pribicevac. I considered
1 it quite normal, according to military logic, for the communications
2 centre to move behind him or after him once he had left Pribicevac.
3 Q. Well, he had a Motorola with him, didn't he, Krstic?
4 A. General Krstic always, when he would go from the IKM, took a
5 soldier of mine with him, a communications person, and that person with
6 him had a communication device which was used for command within the
7 units that were taking part in the Krivaja 95 operation. I do not recall
8 anything about the Motorola because it was not a device through which I
9 established any kind of communication with anyone.
10 Q. Well, sir, there is -- there is a photograph of General Krstic, I
11 believe it's on the 11th of July, in Srebrenica and he's holding a
12 Motorola. Does that help refresh your recollection?
13 A. That helps me to remember the fact that when I testified eight
14 years ago, the Prosecutor showed me that photograph, and I said what I
15 said just now, and that was that I did not organise any communications
16 which would imply in their composition the use of Motorolas, because we
17 soldiers did not consider them to be devices that could substantially
18 assist us in the command of the operation because we had protected
19 communications from commanders lower down and communications to the Drina
20 Corps. I allow for the possibility that General Krstic, perhaps, took it
21 from someone. He personally never had a Motorola that he carried with
22 him. It's possible that he took the Motorola from someone purely in
23 order to monitor some of the participants at a lower level such as the
24 participants from his brigade. I think that was the 2nd Romanija Brigade
25 where he used to be the commander, so he liked to be in touch with
1 Captain Ljubo Eric, the commander of that combat group, for example, by
2 listening to him on that line to congratulate him personally or to
3 encourage him and so on and so forth. So that would be only in this
4 aspect. He could not have had a Motorola in order to command the units
5 that were subordinate to him.
6 Q. He could have spoken to the 10th Sabotage Unit on the 11th of
7 July over a Motorola, couldn't he, if they were within range?
8 A. I agree with that, yes. Theoretically, he could have been able
9 to if he had had the need to communicate with them because they did have
11 Q. And the same would be true if he was within range of Ljubisa
12 Borovcanin who -- and if Borovcanin had a Motorola he could have
13 communicated with him too, if they had both gotten on the same channel,
15 A. At the beginning, I said that General Krstic did not have a
16 Motorola with him at all times as one of the devices to use to command
17 the units. We all knew that those devices were very easy to listen to
18 and to disrupt. He could have taken a Motorola from someone for a while
19 to hear some lower level commanders and komandirs at some channels and to
20 tell them his opinion. I theoretically allow for the possibility that at
21 that point in time he could have had if he had the need and the authority
22 to command the 10th Sabotage Detachment, but that detachment was not in
23 the communications plan and was not in the plan for the Krivaja 95
24 operation. It appeared only on the 10th of July, and I don't know what
25 sort of orders he could have had --
1 Q. You are just rambling on. I asked you about Ljubisa Borovcanin.
2 We don't need to get into the 10th, and we need to try to get specific
3 and answer the question. It would be easier on you that way.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now --
6 A. As regards the special brigade, I don't know precisely where they
7 were when they arrived in the Bratunac area, but I think they were in the
8 Bratunac area which is quite a large range geographically; quite a large
9 distance for those Motorolas. So I don't believe that General Krstic
10 could have spoken to that unit in the Bratunac area using a Motorola
11 because the technical conditions were not in place.
12 Q. Well, let me tell you some of the facts that have come out here
13 and maybe it will refresh your recollection, and if it does, fine; if it
14 doesn't, no problem. And I hope I will get these roughly correct.
15 Ljubisa Borovcanin received an order from Tomislav Kovac to report to the
16 General Krstic on the 11th of July with his units, and Mr. Borovcanin has
17 told us that he did that and he went to the forward command post looking
18 for General Krstic. And he said that he did that on the 11th of July
19 when you were there and that Mladic was there.
20 In addition, we have a receipt, I think it was shown to you in
21 direct, from Mr. Borovcanin's driver, a guy named Jovicic, where he took
22 receipt of the Drina Corps coms plan, and that receipt was found in the
23 Drina Corps collection. So it's pretty clear from the facts in this case
24 that Mr. Borovcanin was the same place that you were on the 11th, he was
25 reporting to the VRS, and he received a coms plan. It's also very clear
1 that he relied heavily on Motorolas because we see him with Motorolas on
2 two days, the 12th and the 13th. So I don't know if that refreshes your
3 recollection about Mr. Borovcanin, but perhaps -- does it? And if it
4 doesn't, we'll go on.
5 A. I absolutely abide by what I said eight years ago, and this is
6 correct, as regards what I know about the MUP unit which arrived in the
7 Bratunac area on the 12th of July. I did not see them myself, or,
8 rather, I didn't see them. I didn't see any of them at the forward
9 command post. They were not in our communications plan, and we never
10 established any communications from our communications plan with that
11 unit while I was in that area. And that was the 11th of July at 2300
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have 65 ter 412 up. And perhaps we can
14 save a little time.
15 Q. You remember, I believe, Mr. Harmon in talking to you about this
16 question of authority to move the command post asked you -- he pointed
17 out to you the old JNA rules which required that for movement of command
18 that there be authority given. Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And is that what those rules say?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Excuse me a second.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could take just a very brief look at
24 page 38 in the English and page 60 in the B/C/S. And under this
25 particular section, it says:
1 "The command moves from one command post to another following the
2 plan or in emergency, but always by decision of the commander and with
3 approval of the senior officer."
4 So was that rule in place when you, Major Jevdjevic, made the
5 decision on your own to move the coms?
6 A. Yes, that rule was in place. It was functioning normally because
7 we were a rather well-organised army. But whether in this rule or some
8 other rule, initiative is permitted provided you have weighed the
9 situation carefully and you are willing to take the consequences for a
10 decision you make on your own initiative. Likewise, General Pandurevic
11 released the prisoners at Ustipraca and opened up the corridor at
12 Balkovica to have a column of the 28th Division allowed to pass through,
13 and he was never held -- taken to task for that so that if you put a
14 soldier in a trench, you don't have to tell him to shoot every time he
15 sees an enemy approaching him. So this is simply gauging the situation,
16 because if a situation in wartime appears, you have to adapt the rules to
17 the combat situation and act accordingly.
18 Q. So are you saying that Colonel Pandurevic took prisoners at
19 Ustipraca or is that a translation issue?
20 A. It may sound odd in the interpretation, but I wanted to draw a
21 parallel between this decision, which I made on my own initiative, and
22 the decision taken by General Pandurevic on his own initiative to let the
23 Muslim column pass through Ustipraca without the approval of his superior
24 command, this column consisting of civilians and soldiers.
25 Q. Now, we understand that Mr. Pandurevic apparently decided not to
1 use his artillery and weaponry on the refugees leaving Ustipraca and we
2 are happy that he made that decision, but you mentioned "prisoners of
3 war." Was that just a slip of the tongue?
4 MR. HAYNES: Well, he didn't, he mentioned "prisoners "according
5 to the transcript.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't mention that. That is
7 a misinterpretation.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. Okay.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Are you satisfied with that following
11 the intervention of Mr. Haynes?
12 MR. HAYNES: I am, and I am also a bit concerned that some terms
13 are getting a bit confused. This witness is being cross-examined on a
14 document that relates to command centres and on the basis that he moved a
15 communications centre. Is it the Prosecution's case that a command and a
16 communications centre are the same thing?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Mr. McCloskey, do you wish
18 to discuss this in the presence of the witness?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we all agree that the communications
20 centre for a command is an essential part of the command and leave it at
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's your position. Basically what
23 Mr. Haynes is interested in is knowing what your position is. So we can
24 proceed, thank you.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
1 Q. Now, I want to go over with you the collection that the
2 Prosecution has, it's a small collection of material that was sent -- we
3 believe was sent from the Pribicevac forward command post and the
4 material that we believe was received and just get a few of your
5 thoughts, and try to keep your thoughts and answers as precise as
6 possible, if you could.
7 And could we start with 65 ter 4100. And I want to show you the
8 original of this one. And if you could take a look at it and if we could
9 put it on the ELMO. And I want you to specifically look at that
10 signature. I think you have talked about this briefly in this case so it
11 shouldn't be an issue, but -- and if you could hand that to the usher so
12 they can put it on the ELMO, because as you can see, the scanned version
13 of the original doesn't do the justice to the -- to the signature.
14 Now, we can see from this document, I think you will agree, that
15 it's from the Pribicevac forward command post, dated 5 July, and it's to
16 the command of the Drina Corps' intelligence and security department,
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it's from Lieutenant-Colonel Svetozar Kosoric, the chief of
20 intel of the Drina Corps, and it was sent to the Drina Corps intel
21 department on 5 July at 1600 hours, according to the handwritten note,
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you recognise the signature of your guy down here that
25 signs this?
1 A. Yes. This signature resembles all the other signatures of the
2 cryptographer who was with me, and his name is Oliver Sekulic.
3 Q. Right. And could you also look at that number, it looks like
4 0411-2, do you know what that is, what that means?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How about under "predato, Br.01.", do you know what that means?
7 A. According to my logistic, this could be the first telegram that
8 Oliver Sekulic sent after our arrival at the forward command post. As I
9 said, we arrived there on the 5th of July in the early afternoon and I
10 conclude now that this might be the first telegram that he handed over or
11 sent from that forward command post. This number, 04/1-2, is written in
12 a quite different kind of pen compared to the one he used to sign his
13 name, and I don't know who might have entered that number on the document
14 and what it represents, but I'm certain it wasn't him. I don't know what
15 that number means. Because -- well, maybe you can see that on the
16 original -- I mean, you can see that on the original, maybe not on the
18 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Let's go to the next one. It's 65
19 ter number 4111.
20 We do not have an original of this. This was obtained from the
21 Defence in the Krstic case. And again I just -- we see that it's from
22 Pribicevac. It's sent on 6th July at 2115 hours, and that is again, if
23 we are looking at the B/C/S version, that's Mr. Sekulic's signature,
24 isn't it?
25 A. Yes. I would like to be able to see the originals, if possible,
1 as I had this telegram, but I will try to assist to the best of my
3 Q. All right. Well, that's all I wanted to -- to confirm, and
4 that -- well, that it was sent to both the Main Staff and to the Drina
5 Corps command, correct? We can see that?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to the next one, 65 ter 4082.
8 Q. And again, we see this is, as it's up in the left-hand corner,
9 from Pribicevac to the Drina Corps command, personally to the commander,
10 which we will agree was General Zivanovic at the time, correct?
11 A. Yes, General Krstic sent this personal correspondence to General
12 Zivanovic from which you can clearly see what I testified about last
13 week, that these two brigades, the Milici and Bratunac Brigade, as I
14 stated last week, it says "brigades that you commanded contributed the
15 least to the success of the operation and by this you have offended those
16 who are unstoppable on their way forward." So this only confirms that
17 those units simply held the positions and engaged in a show of force.
18 You are trying to convince me that that was not the case. In any case,
19 this document was sent from the forward command post, and it was also
20 signed by my cryptographer Oliver Sekulic, and this is the fist time I
21 have seen it.
22 Q. Yes, it's General Krstic just getting right in the face of his
23 commander about something. Do you have any information that General
24 Krstic was aware he was going to soon become the commander? How else
25 could he talk like this to his commander?
1 A. I don't dare comment on that because of my professional code of
2 conduct. I am really not aware of this information. This was a new and
3 surprising information for me. As I said yesterday, that in the heat of
4 action, when the Drina Corps was engaged in major action, there was a
5 change-over of commanders and that the Chief of Staff should be in charge
6 of a hundred men, I spoke about this yesterday, but I see that you are
7 not interested in hearing about that.
8 Q. Oh, I am listening to everything you are saying. I've just got
9 the juggle the exhibits and several other things. So don't worry, I am
10 listening to everything. I apologise, and standing up here for hours is
11 not always most polite thing in the world. And I -- some of the
12 information in these telegrams, you know, is important, though I may not
13 be asking you a lot about it; though if you feel it's something important
14 to your testimony, you can always talk about it.
15 Let's go to the next one. We are now going to go to some of --
16 those are all our collection of sent documents. Now we have some that we
17 believe were received at the Pribicevac forward command post.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to 65 ter number 4101.
19 Q. And I -- I'll give you the original of that one so you'll have
20 that advantage. Now -- and there is -- we see that it's from the command
21 of the Drina Corps, the intelligence section, this is a bad translation.
22 It says "information Section," it should be "Intelligence Section."
23 And it's to quite a few people -- I mean units, but at the end we
24 see Drina Corps IKM Pribicevac, inform the commander, and it's an
25 intelligence report. And we are back now to July 5, so we are back to
1 that first day you have mentioned, and it gives some informs about NATO
2 and other things that I don't really want to ask you about right now.
3 But it gives a background of Zepa, what's going on a bit -- what's going
4 on there. But I want to focus you on the back.
5 Is that -- again it says "Received 6 July at 1545 hours ..." And
6 is that Sekulic again?
7 A. Yes, that was my cryptographer who was with me all the time and
8 that is not in doubt at all. You told me that I might comment on
9 something a little while ago, and I would like to very briefly in
10 connection with this document. Last week, during my testimony, at one
11 point I mentioned that my recollection as regards the organisation of
12 communications in the Krivaja 95 operation, was that we had quite
13 incredibly a lot of problems, a lot of interference and noise in the
14 RRU-1 equipment. And you remember, I told you, if a telegram was rather
15 long, like this one here, you see, because here on the screen you can see
16 only one page but in the original, as you can see, it's a huge telegram.
17 This telegram, in order to be sent through the communications
18 centre, needed at least five minutes of high quality line, but there was
19 often interference which would make the entire telegram collapse. And
20 the encryptor would have to start all over again and repeat the sending
21 of the telegram, and you can see up here where he wrote in his own hand,
22 and you can see that clearly on the original, when a telegram is sent he
23 put something called a pseudo-accidental sequence of impulses. These are
24 signs which don't mean anything. And you can see three places I
25 corrected in his own hand what these codes mean, and he had to do that
1 when telephoning the communications centre of the centre -- of the
2 sender. And he would say, what did it say in that sentence so that you
3 don't have to repeat the whole telegram. And then he wrote two sentences
4 in his own hand which had been destroyed by the interference on the line.
5 And this is what I mentioned yesterday, that that was the first
6 time we had a lot of noise in the channel and a lot of interference while
7 communicating, and now I am pleased to have this before me where I can
8 show you this.
9 Q. So that's Sekulic's own hand that we can see on that original,
11 A. Yes, because you see here there is a line of numbers and other
12 signs. That's what the encryption device sends on the line, but that
13 appears when there is noise on the line, and although this is not
14 allowed --
15 Q. No, I understand, that's all I needed, just to confirm that that
16 was Mr. Sekulic. And this document was received by Sekulic at Pribicevac
17 at 1545 hours, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this is 65 ter 4102. It's from the Drina
21 Corps command to the Pribicevac IKM. And it's regarding the forwarding
22 of an order, which I don't really want to ask you about. It's from
23 General Zivanovic.
24 Q. And can you confirm that this was also received at the Pribicevac
25 command post, and that's Sekulic's signature at -- so it was received at
1 2040 hours; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter 4103. This is a document from the Drina
5 Corps command intelligence department to many addressees, including the
6 Drina Corps IKM, and it says "Pribicevac." And it's an intelligence
7 report on that -- that first day.
8 Q. And can you confirm that again this was received by Sekulic 6
9 July 1540 hours at the Pribicevac command post?
10 A. Could we scroll down, please?
11 Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to the next one.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter 207. And this is from the command of the
15 Drina Corps, dated 7 July to the IKM of the Drina Corps, Pribicevac.
16 This is the only addressee. And it's about the enemy activities in the
17 enclave of Srebrenica.
18 Q. And can you confirm that that was received by Sekulic at the
19 Pribicevac forward command post at 2240 hours, as we see in the bottom
21 A. Yes. It says that Oliver Sekulic received that telegram on the
22 7th of July, and allow me to say here in the first sentence, it says here
23 what you didn't believe me half an hour ago, "According to a report from
24 our intelligence organ in the 1st Milici Brigade in the early morning
25 hours, at about 0500 hours, from the observation post of the Bracan
1 elevation, movements of enemy soldiers and civilians were observed." You
2 remember when half an hour ago, I told you about the Bracan observation
3 post in the area of the Milici Brigade and how the commanders of that
4 brigade informed us of the movements of the enemy. You didn't believe
5 me. This is first time I've seen the document, but every time I see a
6 new document, it only goes to confirm what I previously said in my
8 Q. I don't want to argue about it, but it sounds to me like that
9 this is observing from -- what's going on at the Zepa enclave, but this
10 is dated the 7th of July so I don't think I -- we need to ask you anymore
11 questions about that.
12 A. On the 7th of July, it was the second day of combat actions in
13 Srebrenica. That day nothing was done because of the rain and the fog,
14 and probably you are now linking this with Zepa. But what I read about
15 the Pracan observation post in the Milici Brigade area is probably
16 consistent with what I talked about half an ago and you didn't believe
17 me, and for the first time I am seeing this document and it confirms what
18 I testified. This is what I wish to say.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, sorry to intervene,
21 but from that comment I believe that there is a mistake in the English
22 translation, because in the English text we can read: [In English]
23 "Small group of civilians from the Zepa enclave." [Interpretation] And,
24 indeed, what is written in the text in B/C/S is: "Small group of
25 civilian population towards the Zepa enclave."
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. That would make more sense.
2 Q. And that there was civilians seen by the Milici Brigade going in
3 the direction of Zepa on the 7th, is rather interesting. I've never
4 heard it before. But let's not worry about it.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to the next document, 65 ter number
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Probably it's clear to
8 everyone that the sentence says that the Milici Brigade was located
9 towards Srebrenica. Pracan is also in the direction of Srebrenica. I
10 know that area well, I spent years there. But all right, very well.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. I don't think there is any question that on 11 July, 11, 12, 13
13 July that there were certain Muslims going towards Zepa. And the issues
14 of when people knew about it and all is another issue, but let's -- let's
15 get to that when we get to that date.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: So let's go to 65 ter number 4105, another
17 document from the Drina Corps intel department dated 8 July, and it's to
18 the forward command post at Pribicevac, the "Attention:
19 Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric," and it's Vujadin Popovic. And it's talking
20 about "the UNPROFOR position in Biljeg is still under our control."
21 Q. I don't really want to ask you about that issue. I just want to
22 confirm that this is again received on 8 July by Mr. Sekulic at 2115
23 hours, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 65 ter 4106. This is from
1 the Bratunac Brigade intelligence and security organ from Momir Nikolic,
2 dated 9 July. And it's to three different parties, the Main Staff
3 security administration, the Drina Corps security department, and the
4 Pribicevac IKM Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric. In this, they are talking
5 about the DutchBat requesting a meeting with the representative of the
6 Serbian side at Zuti Most.
7 And can you just confirm that this again was received at the
8 Pribicevac forward command post on 9 July at 1500 hours by Oliver
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 65 ter number 3018. This
12 is from the Drina Corps command intelligence and security department,
13 very urgent, to the Drina Corps IKM at Pribicevac, General Krstic
14 personally, and to the Main Staff intel and security department, General
15 Tolimir, personally, and it says it's from General Tolimir, interestingly
17 Now, can you confirm that this was received by Mr. Sekulic at 9
18 July at 2025 hours from his handwriting there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. And I won't ask you about the substance of that.
21 Let's go to the next one, 65 ter 6D00022. This is a document that is
22 actually from the Drina Corps forward command post, Pribicevac, to the
23 Main Staff and the Drina Corps command. And it's by General Krstic.
24 You've talked about this document before, and sure you will agree with me
25 that that is Mr. Sekulic's signature on this?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And there is - just for everyone's information, there is no ERN
3 on this document. It was received from one of the Defence teams.
4 And, sir, you have testified about this that this "received at
5 2320 hours" meant that it was received by somebody else at 2320 hours; is
6 that correct? Not the Pribicevac forward command post?
7 A. I am glad that it's the turn of a document of this nature. Other
8 than the first one in the entire series of documents, all were documents
9 that some of the part -- or one of the participants sent to the IKM,
10 except for the first one from the 5th of July which talks about the
11 document which was sent from the IKM to the intelligence organ of the
14 Now, this document of the 9th of July is also going from the
15 Drina Corps IKM at Pribicevac and it's signed by General Krstic. But
16 isn't it plainly obvious that the encryption person wrote in his
17 handwriting "received." What does that mean? And he's handing the
18 document over, but he wrote at the bottom "received on the 9th of July,
19 1995 at 2320 hours." I assume that you would put this set of questions
20 to me, but I thought that we had clarified that eight years ago.
21 I said that we had certain problems in communications and in the
22 encryption because of disruptions when a telegram was sent out. He never
23 knew, until the other side tried to decode it, whether they would manage
24 to do that or not because of the interference. Then, they received an
25 order so that he would be sure that the telegram was successfully
1 dispatched, the other side would need to confirm that they received it
2 and decoded it successfully and then the encryption personnel would
3 receive that for the telegram that they sent out, they would need to make
4 a note that it was received when the other communications centre reported
5 back to them that it had been received successfully and decoded.
6 I found this same telegram, the Defence showed it to me just by
7 accident, that arrived at the command of the Drina Corps to which it was
8 addressed, and specifically on that telegram the Defence has that
9 telegram. They can give it to you. You can make a comparison. The
10 encryption person wrote that he received this telegram at 2320 hours and
11 he dictated that time to Oliver Sekulic when they spoke and then Oliver
12 Sekulic was sure that his telegram was successfully dispatched in these
13 difficult conditions, and then he wrote here "Received on the 9th of
14 July, 1995, at 2320." The same telegram that arrived at the other side,
15 the same time is written, 2320, and that is my explanation.
16 Q. Okay. And I will agree with you that there is a received version
17 of the document that was received at the Drina Corps that you are
18 referring to. I will get the 65 ter number of that for the record. It's
19 6D -- no, I don't have that right now but I will get that. I agree with
20 you, it does exist. But you will agree with me, I think, that this
21 document was in fact sent from the Pribicevac forward command post on the
22 evening of July 9th?
23 A. That is absolutely correct, just as I am asking you to confirm
24 whether in the received version the same time is written, affirming what
25 I said.
1 Q. Yes, it is. And it's the Prosecution's position that because we
2 have seen many, many received documents, and we have never seen -- we've
3 seen many received documents and we have never seen any mention like this
4 noting the time it was received some place else, that if that was the
5 case, instead of putting "received on 9 July 1995 at 2320 hours," they
6 would have put "at the Drina Corps command," and they didn't. So it's
7 the position of the Prosecution that this likely means that one of two
9 Mr. Sekulic, like we all do, made a mistake. Instead of putting
10 "sent" he put "received," or, because we don't have the original,
11 somebody forged this for some reason. What do you think of those two
13 A. Sir, I am still in that group of people who find it very hard if
14 somebody does not believe what they are saying, and it effects me even
15 more when I am testifying under oath before this Trial Chamber and
16 somebody tells you that you have not been telling the truth for eight
17 years. Perhaps my mental -- or my mindset cannot understand that, so I
18 apologise to you. But all I am stating here are facts, because in 2008
19 when I discussed similar things about a telegram of the 12th of July, I
20 remained by my assertion that the IKM and the communications centre left
21 Pribicevac on the 11th, while Mr. Harmon showed me a telegram about --
22 where Oliver put his signature on the 12th. I still stood by what I
23 said. I didn't understand the gist of that document, but I asked the
24 Defence, they copied the document, I took it with me from The Hague
25 couldn't wait to find the encryption person and to ask him what it was
1 all about.
2 And he explained the actual problems that the encryption
3 personnel had and the instructions that they had, and this encryption
4 person came on -- in 2001 and stated this explanation before the Court in
5 the case of General Krstic, and I thought that in this aspect all the
6 matters were crystal clear, but still I am here available to answer all
7 of your questions nevertheless.
8 Q. Mr. Jevdjevic, don't take it personally. The Prosecution's
9 position is the same now as it was then, but you are jumping ahead of us
10 a bit. The judges haven't seen that yet, and so they are probably not
11 quite sure what we are talking about, but we are going to get to those
12 documents, believe me. But let me say did you actually -- are you saying
13 after you testified in Krstic, you went and talked to Mr. Sekulic about
14 this document on 9 July or are you talking about the 12 July document
15 that we will get to in a minute?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we go into private session just for a second.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's do that, please.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 29792 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, the received version of this
8 document that was received at the Drina Corps at 2320 hours is 65 ter
10 Q. Sir, just on this document, and we'll get to the 12th, on this
11 document don't you leave open the -- the likelihood that Mr. Sekulic just
12 made a mistake and wrote "received" when he should have wrote "sent,"
13 should have written "sent"?
14 A. I do not allow for that possibility at all, because on all the
15 documents, mostly from the 6th or the 7th when he was faced with this
16 problem, there is a whole set of these documents that went out from the
17 IKM. I think this one here is the 8th in order -- or in sequence, if you
18 can see it -- well, I don't know who has the original. I think it's a
19 08/95, so it's the eight document. Probably it would be a good thing to
20 analyse each one, since the time is consistent with the document time
21 that it was received in the command of the Drina Corps. So obviously he
22 was writing the word "primljeno," "received," here with the intention
23 that it should mean that the act was successfully received at the end
24 where it was supposed to be received.
25 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, it's 65 ter 4084. We jumped to
1 the 11th, so we are getting closer. And I will show you the original if
2 it will help, but this is -- like the others we have seen, it is from the
4 dated 11 July, and it's distributed to the Drina Corps intelligence
5 department and the forward command post, and it's from Lieutenant
6 Petrovic who you've mentioned. And it is -- you'll agree with me this is
7 Mr. Sekulic's signature again, correct?
8 A. Yes, this is the signature of my encryption person, and it's a
9 document received from the Drina Corps and it's evidently a document that
10 arrived from another IKM to the IKM at Pribicevac. It's a receipt that,
11 like I said today, that we received information from intelligence
12 sources. And this is an information of such a nature coming from the
13 Radio Surveillance Platoon from the corps command, and those who were
14 close to us would provide this information to us by voice, not by act.
15 And it indicates the intention of the forces of the 28th
16 Division, and even in a sentence it says that the conversation was
17 intercepted, and ultimately something is wrong, they intend to destroy
18 the UN, and they are thinking of the units of the Dutch Battalion in
19 Srebrenica. That's what it says in this document.
20 Q. Yes, we can see that, and you will agree with me that this was
21 received by Mr. Sekulic at the Pribicevac forward command post on 11 July
22 at 1530 hours?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Okay. Now let's go to the next one, which is 65 ter 6D00207. We
25 don't have an original of this. This was given to us by the Defence,
1 Krstic. And -- however, we can see that this was from the Main Staff to
2 the Drina
3 "Pribicevac," unlike the others, but if we do look at it down at the
4 bottom that's Mr. Sekulic's signature down there, isn't it?
5 A. Regardless of the fact that it doesn't say that it was addressed
6 to the Pribicevac IKM, it says that it was addressed to the IKM/1 of the
7 Drina Corps, in view of the fact that at that time the Drina Corps had
8 only one IKM and that was the one at Pribicevac. It means that -- I have
9 no doubt that this is the Pribicevac IKM and also because the signature
10 of my encryption person is here, that he received the document at 1735
11 hours. I remember this document very well, as compared to some other
12 ones, because at the time I read it myself and I read it because at that
13 time there -- General Mladic, General Zivanovic, or General Krstic, or
14 Colonel Vukota were not at the IKM. So as the communications person, I
15 was the only officer present at the IKM at the time, so my encryption man
16 at the time, because he had a certain deadline in which he had to
17 dispatch priority telegrams, and it does say "very urgent" here, it is
18 his assignment to dispatch -- or to deliver the telegram immediately to
19 the person it was addressed to. Since no one was there who had command
20 responsibility to receive the telegram and to read its contents, he asked
21 me what he should do, because he was not permitted to hold a telegram
22 without delivering it, without passing the telegram on, because it was a
23 very urgent one. So I read this telegram purely to see which issues it
24 was dealing with, how urgent it was, in order to be able to intervene.
25 And I was very glad to read a very civilized and military inclined view
1 of General Gvero about the treatment by our forces of the UNPROFOR where
2 there is a sentence that the UNPROFOR and the civilian population should
3 be treated in the spirit of the convention.
4 And then it says "Regardless of their behaviour, regardless of
5 their extreme behaviour, unfavourably extreme behaviour by UNPROFOR, that
6 they should be treated in a civilized and proper manner," as should be
7 the case for the civilian population as well. So I remember this
8 document very well.
9 Q. So you agree then that General Gvero is instructing through the
10 subordinate commands that the Drina Corps ensure the utmost correct
11 treatment of UNPROFOR?
12 A. Yes, he issues these instructions. Ultimately, it is part of his
13 duties and matters that were in his jurisdiction, in my opinion.
14 Q. So do you think General Gvero had the authority to issue
15 instructions to the entire corps like this, to the corps people referred
16 to in this -- in this document?
17 A. As for whether he had that authority or not, I don't know, but I
18 know that it was within his purview to deal with UNPROFOR and the
19 relations with UNPROFOR.
20 Q. So whether -- whether he had it or not, he was using his
21 authority, wasn't he, when he did -- sent this instruction?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
23 MR. JOSSE: We are a little concerned about the terminology used
24 here. My learned friend used the word "introduction," the document says
25 "warning." We say there is a difference.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think you mean I used the term "instruction."
3 MR. JOSSE: I beg your pardon, correct.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I called it what I thought it was.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed. I think it's clear that
6 we can proceed now.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. And, so, whether he had the authority or not, let's not quibble.
9 Let's -- you will agree with me he was using the authority of his
10 position to send this document and this instruction to the units in it?
11 A. I don't know about that part and I wouldn't wish to speculate,
12 but I did agree with this opinion more or less, so I just remember that
13 particular telegram. As for who had instructions and authority within
14 the Main Staff is something I don't know. I just know that it was within
15 his purview to deal with cooperation with UNPROFOR and contacts with
16 journalists and so on.
17 Q. Do you -- did you feel as a major in the VRS that you were
18 obligated to follow his instruction in this and treat UNPROFOR fairly?
19 A. Well, we, according to my information, did that. Even without
20 this instruction, the instruction was just there in order to affirm some
21 of my thinking and commitment in that sense, and that's why I was glad
22 that this was being materialised on paper. This is why I remembered this
23 document. The document reflected my opinion.
24 Q. Yes, it's -- and we are all happy about this, but did you feel
25 obligated to follow this document? Did you feel obligated to follow the
1 instruction of General Gvero?
2 A. Obviously the document did not affect me. I had my commander
3 whose orders I implemented, so the document in some kind of sense of an
4 order did not include me. It just touched me in the sense that I also
5 shared the same lines of thinking as reflected in this document. In the
6 army there is a hierarchy, so I had my own commander superior to me so
7 that his orders would affect me.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It's the time. We can have the break.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And just --
11 JUDGE KWON: Just one minor matter. Mr. McCloskey, page 29, line
12 24, you indicated that the received -- the 65 ter number of the received
13 version of the controversial document was 65 ter 4083. I couldn't locate
14 it. Could you check it again, please.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And before we rise, Judge Prost would like to
17 address you.
18 JUDGE PROST: Yes. We wanted to alert the parties, specifically
19 the Prosecution and the Borovcanin Defence team, that at the conclusion
20 of the evidence from this witness later this morning, we would like to
21 hear the comments of both the Prosecution and the Borovcanin Defence team
22 specifically and solely on the issue related to the pending motion that
23 focuses on two documents, excerpts of P210 and P3838. And the only point
24 we would like to hear oral submissions on with respect to that motion is
25 in relation to the excerpts of P210 in relation to Rules 89(c) and (d);
1 that is specifically the arguments of both parties on relevance,
2 probative value, and any possible prejudicial effect to fair trial
3 flowing from those -- that one particular document. So we would be
4 expecting oral submissions on that single point later this morning.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We will have a 25-minute break now.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. McCloskey, how much longer, if I
10 may ask, just to know where we stand?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I hope I can finish in a couple of hours. We are
12 at the --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no it's --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- the place we were trying to get.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We just wanted to know where we stand, that's
16 all. We are not cutting you short.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed were. Thank you.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Judge Kwon, it's now there. It hasn't been
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I got the message.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Thanks. All right.
23 Q. Let's go now to 65 ter 438, and it's a two-pager, Colonel, so you
24 may find this easier as well. This is a document Mr. Harmon showed you,
25 and this is not -- we don't have any version that was received at
1 Pribicevac. This has a big stamp on it. As we see on the back page, it
2 has received at 2230 hours, processed at 2250. But it was sent, as I
3 think you will agree with me, from the Drina Corps command on 11 July,
5 A. Yes, it was sent from the command of the Drina Corps on the 11th
6 of July at -- and it was processed at 2250 and immediately after that,
7 forwarded to all the units as mentioned here. As the corps commander,
8 Major General Zivanovic was not at 2200 hours on the 11th of July, he was
9 not at the corps command at that time. Colonel Pedrag Josic signed for
10 him. I recognise this signature. And this document was not received at
11 the Pribicevac forward command post for the simple reason that there was
12 no communications centre at the time at Pribicevac, so the document could
13 not have been received there. That's my opinion.
14 Q. All right. And we see what it's about. It actually has to do
15 with -- it's entitled "Order to block the linking up of the forces of the
16 28th enemy division with the forces in the enclaves." I don't think I
17 will ask you if this information is -- is consistent with what you've
18 been saying or not, unless you would like to comment on it.
19 A. I don't think there is any need to read the document now. I
20 don't know what it's about.
21 Q. Well, it's about the 28th Division, and it's an order to block
22 them. And I believe it looks like they are worried about the 28th
23 Division returning from a battlefront to the Srebrenica area, to come
24 into the backs of the VRS forces. There is no talk in here of the 28th
25 Division taking off towards Tuzla
1 A. You're wrong, Mr. Prosecutor. I'm sorry I didn't read the
2 document at once. One should read every document right away, but it says
3 quite precisely here: "The command of the 28th Muslim Brigade from
4 Srebrenica asked to go back from the Sarajevo war front." So this is
5 about Naser Oric, and perhaps a few of his officers, and it's quite
6 incredible that you are saying that the 28th Division was at the Sarajevo
7 war front when it says quite clearly that only the command was there.
8 And this refers primarily to Naser Oric.
9 Q. Yes, that's correct. It's Naser Oric in the command, he's what I
10 meant to refer to.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's look at the next document.
12 It's 65 ter number 439. It's the -- I'm sure you will agree with me,
13 it's same document as the other one, basically, 11 July, confidential
14 number 03/1574, which is the same one we just saw. However, this one, we
15 can see a very familiar Mr. Sekulic. So this was --
16 A. Can you show me that page, please? Or, if you have a document in
17 hard copy it would be even more useful.
18 Q. Yes, they can blow that up for you on the screen to make it a
19 little bit bigger so you can see the signature, but I am sure you will
20 agree with me that this is the same document and this is the receipt
21 version of the document, where Mr. Sekulic says -- and this is -- well,
22 let's see who it is addressed to. It is addressed to the IKM forward
23 command post. It does not specifically set out Pribicevac. But we
24 recognise -- I am sure we recognise the signature of Mr. Sekulic. And it
25 says, "Received 11 July at 2350 hours."
1 A. I agree with you, as it doesn't say "Pribicevac forward command
2 post," I agree with you that it refers to that document. And it says
3 down here that the document was received by him at 2350. That's that
4 time. You probably want me to comment on how this was possible.
5 Q. Absolutely.
6 A. This is the time I mentioned in my testimony seven and eight
7 years ago and in the course of last week, when, together with the
8 cryptographer, and the communications centre, I arrived in the command of
9 the Drina
10 Pribicevac forward command post at about 1900 hours on the 11th, my
11 cryptographer no longer had the technical conditions he needed to receive
12 or send documents.
13 In the meantime, documents arrived for the communications centre
14 somewhere, but he was unable to receive them. So those documents piled
15 up in other communications centres because they were unable to forward
16 them to us. This document is such a document. On behalf of General
17 Zivanovic, who was attending a meeting at Bratunac at the time, it was
18 signed by Colonel Pedrag Josic, but the communications centre of the
19 Drina Corps was not able to hand this over to Sekulic because Sekulic was
20 already travelling with me from Pribicevac towards Bratunac and then on
21 to Vlasenica.
22 When we arrived at the forward command post of the corps at
23 Vlasenica, of course I reported to the operations centre and he to the
24 communications centre. And then he was able to receive this document at
25 2350 when it was handed to him from the communications centre of the
1 Drina Corps in Vlasenica, because that communication centre had to hand
2 over this document to all the addressees listed here. And he took the
3 opportunity only when we returned to Vlasenica to hand this document over
4 to the cryptographer for him to distribute. He was unable to send it to
5 him through a technical communications equipment. He handed it over to
6 him physically, and then he stated here that he received this document in
7 Vlasenica at the time mentioned here, at 2350, and this corresponds
8 fully. And that's my response.
9 Q. Okay. So this was printed out at Vlasenica?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And so the print -- the teleprinter that printed this one is
12 different from the teleprinter that was at the Pribicevac forward command
14 A. No. At Pribicevac we had two kinds of teleprinters. One was
15 working and the other one was a reserve, but they were of two different
16 makes and one can recognise this by the shape of the letters. This is an
17 electronic teleprinter produced -- well, it was called ETL1. It was the
18 Nis Electronic industry that produced it. The other teleprinter which we
19 happened to have in reserve was produced by Siemens, it was of the
20 mechanical time, and the letters are quite different. They're like small
21 written letters and it's T100. That's the type of teleprinter it is.
22 So you will see that on the 5th and 6th of July, the documents
23 sent by Svetozar Kosoric from Pribicevac, Sekulic, the cryptographer used
24 the mechanical teleprinter. And when one was working, the other one was
25 used as a reserve. Or when he was typing on one he was using the other
1 one to decrypt the message. That's how he worked.
2 Q. Sir, you've testified that documents came to the Drina Corps
3 command were piling up there and that when you guys got to the command,
4 those documents were given to Sekulic and he -- well, this particular
5 one, he signed and received, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. I don't --
8 A. Colonel Pedrag Josic.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues]... so this document was printed
10 out by a machine at the -- in Vlasenica?
11 A. Yes. When Sekulic arrived the machine printed this out, and he
12 was handed this document personally, because before that there was no
13 technical means for the document to be sent to him and it was intended
14 for him as cryptographer at the Pribicevac forward command post.
15 Q. Now, you said these documents had been piling up waiting for him
16 and when he got there, they were handed to him. Now you're saying it was
17 printed out after he was there. Which is it?
18 A. You understand, the cryptographer -- if you knew the technique
19 you wouldn't be putting this question. When the cryptographer prepares
20 this document for all the units, it's a long strip of paper, a long
21 narrow strip of paper, and he sends this to all units, all units, and he
22 encircles the unit to which it has been sent. And probably only the
23 Pribicevac forward command post was left over. It had not been sent to
24 them. And when Sekulic turned up in the evening of the 11th at that
25 communications centre, this is military discipline. He reports and he
1 says, I was absent, do you have any telegrams for me. Or, perhaps, the
2 encryptor of that communications centre rang him up and said, Hey, where
3 have you been, I have several telegrams for you. And then he took that
4 tape, or, rather, that long narrow strip of paperer, he put it through
5 the machine, the machine typed this out, he signed it, and then he handed
6 it over. Because the cryptographer at the Vlasenica centre had to sign
7 in his report that he had sent the document to all the units. That's
8 what this is about.
9 Q. So this document that was at Vlasenica, was it printed out before
10 or after Sekulic got there, as far as you know?
11 A. Well, those are details which are so irrelevant as far as I am
12 concerned. It's just as irrelevant as the question whether I entered
13 this courtroom by that door or this door. I am answering your questions,
14 of course, but there was a possibility if that cryptographer knew - and
15 he must have known - that we were leaving Pribicevac, he might have typed
16 this out beforehand to hand it over to Oliver Sekulic. Or when Oliver
17 Sekulic arrived he might have printed it out then and handed it to him.
18 Those are just logical conclusions I am drawing.
19 Q. But it was printed out on a Drina Corps teleprinter, not the
20 forward -- former forward command post teleprinters, right?
21 A. That's logical, yes, in the communications centre of the Drina
22 Corps. The teleprinters were the same. We used the same teleprinters.
23 We had the same ones both in the Drina Corps and at the forward command
24 post. It's a machine. The machines are the same, just as rifles are the
1 Q. That's a -- probably a good comparison, because you know you can
2 determine whether a -- if you get a good bullet sample whether a bullet
3 is fired from the same or a different rifle, and I think it's the same
4 thing for teleprinters. And we'll go check and get back to you on
5 whether or not this document is the same teleprinter as is at the
6 Pribicevac forward command post or one from someplace else. We'll let
7 you know. I don't know the answer to that right now.
8 A. I'll assist you to the best of my ability.
9 Q. Thank you. Let's keep going.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter number 160.
11 Q. This -- I think I have got an original for you which, if you want
12 it. We'll see that this is from the Drina Corps command, the 4th RIV, we
13 have heard about them before. It's dated 12 July. And we have that
14 little handwritten business again, 04/1/50
15 right-hand side. And this is to -- specifically to the Drina Corps
16 intelligence department at the Pribicevac forward command post. And it's
17 an interim report. And they're listening on a particular frequency, and
18 they know that these -- their intercept guys have concluded that this is
19 Naser Oric's men, we can see. This is also -- isn't that Sekulic's
20 signature there on the original one?
21 A. Yes, that's his signature.
22 Q. So he received that 12 July at 0740 hours?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And interestingly enough, your intercept guys say that "By
25 monitoring this network, we reached the conclusion that they were all
1 present, that they were heading in a direction unknown to us as yet,
2 together with the people and their groups."
3 So your monitoring guys don't know what direction they are going
4 in at that point, I take it, correct?
5 A. This intelligence information and the date is the 12th of July,
6 and it's in the early morning, 4.30, our intercept - as I don't know what
7 group it was - sent information to their commander, Mirko Petrovic in
8 Vlasenica, and this information in my view fully reflects the situation
9 of the 28th Division in the night between the 11th and the 12th. It says
10 that the participants are known as Naser's men, komandirs, and the
11 signalsmen, and group intercepting them concluded that they were moving
12 towards us along an unknown axis together with people, civilians and
13 their groups.
14 So this is the information received from the surveillance group.
15 The units he was listening in to didn't say they were heading in a
16 direction unknown, but the people listening in were unable to determine
17 by listening to the conversation at 4.30 what direction they were heading
18 in. So it's only one of the conversations they listened in to and they
19 were unable to pinpoint the direction in which these people were heading.
20 Q. And this is this reconnaissance unit, is this coming from the
21 Drina Corps command or from the truck down the -- or the truck that was
22 at Pribicevac? Do you know where this is come from? It says Drina Corps
24 A. I don't know precisely because the 4th Reconnaissance Platoon had
25 several points at various trig points where they listened in. I know
1 only about the one at Pribicevac, where they were during the operation,
2 but where the other points were, I don't know. And where this group was
3 that sent this report, I don't know. They may have been at Pribicevac or
4 somewhere else, at Bracani for example. But I don't know.
5 Q. It's fair to conclude that Mirko Petrovic thought that the Drina
6 Corps intelligence department was present -- was still present at
7 Pribicevac, right? That's why he addressed it to him there,
9 A. He sent this on the 12th. I allow for the possibility that he
10 thought that the forward command post and the communications centre still
11 existed at Pribicevac. That's quite logical, because in the evening at
12 around 2400 hours we arrived at Vlasenica, he was probably asleep, and at
13 4.30 in the morning his men discovered this and sent this telegram. And
14 as you can see my cryptographer signed that he received this document at
15 7.40. Some time has to elapse for the telegram to be written, typed out,
16 encrypted, sent, so all that took place before 7.40. And in the morning
17 I am absolutely sure that when we woke up in the morning of the 12th, in
18 the meantime, another telegram arrived for Sekulic. But he was no longer
19 at Pribicevac, he was now in Vlasenica. He had arrived there, and then
20 the cryptographer simply typed out, he used the ETL teleprinter, he put
21 that long narrow strip of paper through the machine, and he thus
22 fulfilled his obligation as regards this telegram.
23 Q. So this type-face should not match the teletypes received in
24 Pribicevac? It should come from a Drina Corps teletype where you say it
25 was received?
1 A. Yes, yes, yes. And --
2 Q. This very important reconnaissance unit, a key part of the
3 intelligence operation, doesn't know where the Drina Corps intelligence
4 department is?
5 A. Objectively at that point in time, Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric was
6 the chief of intelligence. I assume that he spent the night between the
7 11th and the 12th at Bratunac. This was only one night. At that point
8 in time they did not know that we were not at Pribicevac, but as soon as
9 we turned up in the morning and had a rest, on the 12th, as soon as we
10 woke up they knew we were here and they handed him this information
11 straight away. That is logical. And the contents of this information
12 fully reflect what was happening as regards the 28th Division in the
13 night between the 11th and the 12th. Had the content been different, you
14 might have had more arguments to impute to me. But this fully
15 corresponds to what was actually happening in the night between the 11th
16 and the 12th.
17 Q. Well, Mr. Kosoric was seen on video in Potocari on the 12th of
18 July. So does that help refresh your recollection where he was?
19 A. I don't deny that, but it says here "deliver to the intelligence
20 department of the command of the Drina Corps," and underneath it says
21 "Forward to the Pribicevac forward command post."
22 Whether Kosoric as the first one listed here received this or
23 not, I am not interested in that. What matters is that Sekulic where it
24 says "Pribicevac forward command post" received it. He may have been --
25 Kosoric may have been in Potocari on the 12th, I don't know. I am only
1 telling you what I do know.
2 Q. Okay. Well, let's go to the next one, 65 ter 4086. It might
3 have the original. This is from that same group, the reconnaissance
4 folks, they are sending this to the Drina Corps command intelligence
5 department, the IKM Pribicevac. And it's difficult to tell, maybe you
6 can help us, whether they are addressing this to the Drina Corps command
7 intelligence department at the IKM in Pribicevac or it's got two
8 addressees; one the Drina Corps intelligence department, and two, the IKM
9 Pribicevac. Can you tell from looking at this which one it is? The last
10 one, I think it was a little clearer in the original.
11 A. Well, to tell you the truth the Drina Corps has one intelligence
12 department, or squad. Whether the person who sent this wanted to put the
13 title and the location or whether he thought it was understood that
14 Svetozar Kosoric was at Pribicevac at the time, I don't know. He may
15 have assumed or known that Svetozar Kosoric was at Pribicevac and he
16 might have thought he was at that forward command post. I don't know. I
17 can't think of -- well, I don't know what I might have assumed. I don't
19 Q. Okay. And just -- there is a couple of mistakes in the English
20 on this. It's -- I think you will agree that this is Mirko Petrovic, not
21 Potrovic. And the received on 12 July 1995 should be "0745 hours"; is
22 that correct, Colonel?
23 A. Yes, that is correct. I think that the previous one was at 0740,
24 this one was at 0745. So probably just as long as it needs for the
25 telegram to go through the machine and then he would sign one and then
1 the other one. But, yes, that is time that's written there and you are
3 Q. And, sir, it is the position of the Prosecution that Mr. Sekulic
4 is still at Pribicevac receiving this material as addressed to him at
5 Pribicevac at the time in question. But I think we understand your
6 explanation, it remains the same, we just differ on that, correct?
7 A. Sir, I can respond to some other things with "I think" or "I
8 believe" or something like that, but specifically yesterday when we
9 talked snipers, had you asked me, for example, if I ruled out any
10 possibility that some sniper hits were directed at the enclave during the
11 four years of the war, I would say -- well, my information is that I
12 didn't see it. We usually didn't have such weapons. But perhaps some
13 shot was fired. I cannot say otherwise. But as for the IKM
14 communications centre at Pribicevac and the dismantling of the IKM on the
15 11th and the meeting at the Bratunac command on the 11th in the evening,
16 do I not allow for any possibility that it did happen in some other way.
17 That's as much as I would like to say about this.
18 Q. Okay, but like the sniper story, there are some more documents to
19 look at and maybe I will bring you around on that. So keep your mind
20 open and let's keep going through the documents. Here is another one.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter number 147.
22 Q. And maybe the original will help you, I think we have it.
23 Interestingly, on this one we see Sekulic's familiar signature. I think
24 you will agree with me on that, won't you? I can show you the original
25 so it's a little clearer. Is that -- that's Mr. Sekulic receiving this
1 on 12 July at 1620 hours?
2 A. Yes, that's what it says. Can you just allow me a little bit of
3 time to read the contents of the telegram because that always helps me a
5 Q. Please. And just as background, we saw that just there was a
6 one-liner in the previous one reporting that someone -- that the
7 people -- I'm sorry. People entered a minefield somewhere is the
8 previous one, to give us factual background to this one.
9 A. Yes, previously, as I said, it does absolutely accord with the
10 development of the situation in the field. I am prepared to comment on
11 this document.
12 Q. Okay. So you've already agreed with me this was received by
13 Oliver Sekulic, and you will agree with me that it was sent by the
14 command of the Drina Corps intelligence department on 12 July, correct?
15 A. To be precise, the intelligence section.
16 Q. Good. And it's very urgent, for immediate delivery, meaning it
17 shouldn't be old news. This should be new news, right?
18 A. Yes. These are fresh news that they received or news that were
19 Collated by the intelligence department from the listening groups. I see
20 that Pavle Golic is the one who signed this document. So he put together
21 all the information that arrived in the meantime and he is sending it out
22 to all of those he thought would require that information, that they
23 would need to know this information.
24 Q. Okay. But now on the topic we've been on, we see -- we don't see
25 anymore discussion of the Pribicevac forward command post. We see a
1 Drina Corps Bratunac forward command post. And so now we have a
2 Mr. Sekulic receiving a telegram that is addressed to the Bratunac
3 forward command post, and it's our position that now Mr. Sekulic has
4 moved. He is now at Bratunac, and he is receiving this information as we
5 see it before us, that the Drina Corps intelligence department knows
6 precisely where Sekulic and his coms people are and they are sending it
7 to him there. Do you disagree?
8 A. So far you are asserting that the IKM at Pribicevac remained
9 until the 12th, and now you're assuming that on the 12th it was in
10 Bratunac. But, actually, this is what is involved. Intelligence man
11 Pavle Golic does not need to know where Sekulic is. He would need to
12 know where his superior is, Krstic. So he is sending this to Krstic. On
13 the 12th, he knew very well that we were no longer at Pribicevac, but he
14 also knew that General Krstic was in Bratunac, which is also correct. I
15 am not disputing that. It is the result of all of my testimony. And he
16 is sending the telegram to Bratunac in the belief that the telegram would
17 be given to Krstic.
18 On the 12th, as I testified, I myself and my communications
19 people were already at the Krivace IKM in Zepa. So I said there on the
20 afternoon hours of the 12th I had already arrived at Zepa, and this
21 telegram was received by Oliver Sekulic in Zepa at 1620 hours. So this
22 is the only possibility that I would allow, that he received this
23 telegram at Zepa on the 12th of July at 1620 hours because that's when we
24 were in Zepa already and the communications centre had been already set
1 Q. Okay, and you -- we see that 04/1-52 written up in the right-hand
2 corner of the original, and you don't know what that means?
3 A. I don't know what it means, but I assume that it just could have
4 been, if that's of any help, that some time later after the operation all
5 the telegrams are redistributed. And then when Oliver came back after
6 the Zepa operation and he was placing all the telegrams in their proper
7 places and those who were given the telegrams later, perhaps Kosoric,
8 when they were handing over the telegrams, then because of the records
9 the telegrams should be logged in for a record. I guess this is what
10 this is about, but all I am talking about is the actual receipt of the
11 telegrams because this is something that I am well familiar with.
12 Q. So you must recall that General Krstic, in his testimony, said
13 that there was this big meeting on the 11th of July that you've mentioned
14 and that the orders were received to go to Zepa the next day. And surely
15 you remember that General Krstic testified he did go to Zepa on the 12th?
16 A. I didn't have the opportunity to follow the General's testimony,
17 and I don't know what he said, but I know what I said and I know how it
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
20 MR. HAYNES: Can we just be clear. Are the Prosecution asserting
21 that what General Krstic said is the truth?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, I am not. He was not telling the truth.
24 MR. HAYNES: Then what's the purpose of the question?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's the position of the Prosecution that this
1 witness is very familiar with General Krstic's accounts and that, as a
2 Defence witness for Krstic, aligned his testimony with General Krstic's
3 account. And it appears that when Vinko Pandurevic interviewed Eileen
4 Gilleece, his account was aligned on these issues. And so that's why all
5 of this, I am spending so much time with it, just so it's clear what the
6 Prosecution's position is and where we are coming from.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You can safely proceed along this line,
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think the question's been asked and
11 answered and --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. What I mean to say is that if you have
13 further questions on this business in this area, you may safely put them
14 to the witness.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I hadn't intended to
16 go back in time anymore, but I think that that should do it. I can
17 always provide the Court we with any background or any -- the testimony
18 related to General Krstic if that would be helpful. All right. It may
19 become more relevant down the road.
20 Q. Let's -- let me catch my breath and see where we are. All right.
21 Now, let's go to another document, 65 ter 148. And let me give you the
22 typed version of that. This is a long one from General Tolimir, and I am
23 not so interested in the content. And I think you will agree with me
24 that it's from the Drina Corps intelligence section to the Main Staff
25 intelligence and security and to the intelligence administration, the
1 Drina Corps IKM, General Krstic personally, the Drina Corps IKM Bratunac,
2 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic [sic], personally.
3 Now, this one, we don't have Mr. Sekulic on. We don't -- I think
4 we don't have him. And I just for completeness wanted to show the Court
5 and yourself these other telegrams that went to various IKMs. The one
6 that says "Drina Corps IKM Pribicevac," actually, it says "Pribicevac."
7 So we can conclude that -- or can we conclude -- what, if anything, can
8 we conclude about that? This is addressed to Krstic at Pribicevac on the
9 12th, and we see that stamps on this thing, and the 2210 hours. It's a
10 little hard to say if it's received or processed but ...
11 A. This first page, is it completely authentic as regards this
12 telegram? I would like to have an original -- I mean, the original,
13 because it's copied. I am trying to find my way here. Do you happen to
14 have the original perhaps, or, if you say that this is an authentic copy,
15 then I have no reason to not believe you. I would just like an answer so
16 that I could make my comments.
17 Q. I don't have an original. We don't have originals of everything.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Haynes.
19 MR. HAYNES: It's just line 14 of the transcript, Mr. McCloskey
20 asserted this document is addressed to Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic
21 personally. I wonder if he could look at it again.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, if I've said that, that's a complete mistake.
23 I apologise.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Let's proceed.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I had the time to at least read
1 some of the contents to see if that corresponds to that day, but it
2 probably does. What this is about is this: This, to the first command,
3 is the heading of the Drina Corps command intelligence section, strictly
4 confidential, so on and so forth, and it's dated the 12th. So the
5 intelligence section of the Drina Corps very urgently is forwarding a
6 telegram that it -- that was earlier received from the Main Staff of the
7 army of Republika Srpska from the sector for intelligent questions. So
8 it is just forwarding an earlier received telegram in its entirety and
9 it's just adding the heading, its own heading, that of the Drina Corps
10 command. I think everyone can see that very well.
11 Unfortunately, the time is not stated here. When the telegram
12 was drafted at the main staff, there is no date either. But I assume
13 that this was also something that took place on the 12th of July.
14 Probably, the person who drafted this telegram at the intelligence
15 affairs sector at the Main Staff thought that at the time the IKM of the
16 Drina Corps was still at Pribicevac. I am assuming that is why he put it
17 here, but the is not something that the Drina Corps command wrote.
18 Earlier on we discussed a document where the same intelligence section of
19 the Drina Corps forwarded a telegram to Bratunac, so they already know
20 that Krstic is in Bratunac. So why would they on the 12th, in the
21 evening - you can see that it's 2210 hours - again return that telegram
22 to Pribicevac if in the morning some of the telegrams had been sent to
24 So my answer, in the end, is that this is just a telegram that
25 was passed on from the Main Staff where somebody on the 12th at the
1 intelligence sector in the main command still believed that the IKM was
2 at Pribicevac and that's why they put it there, on the document. This is
3 what I am -- would like to say about this document.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And I, to the extent that you have said that this is an
6 indication that this sender, General Tolimir, doesn't really know where
7 the coms centre is at this point, I agree with you, that the
8 Prosecution's position that the coms centre in is in Bratunac and it's on
9 its way to Krivace. And this an example of what you have said before is
10 that the sender doesn't always know where the person is that he is
11 sending something to.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, let's go to 65 ter 149.
13 Q. And let me give you that one. That's another -- it's not a -- we
14 don't have Mr. Sekulic on this one, so this is similar to the last one.
15 It's another Tolimir document sent to Pribicevac, General Krstic, and
16 Bratunac, Colonel Popovic, just a little bit -- it looks like it's a
17 little bit later than the last one. So I don't think I need to ask you
18 anymore questions on that, it's so similar to the last one, unless you
19 would like to make a comment on it.
20 A. My opinion is the same as of the previous telegram. It's a
21 document that came from the Main Staff to the command of the Drina Corps.
22 At the Drina Corps command they wanted to have this information or data
23 to the units, so the heading is placed at the top and it's forwarded to
24 the units as soon as possible, and I am very glad that you noticed that
25 the person sending out the documents would not necessarily need to know
1 where the person to whom the document is addressed is exactly located.
2 So what's important is that the communications centre is addressed and
3 then whoever is there at the communications centre will find the person,
4 and this is a key piece of information, actually.
5 Q. Okay. Let's go to -- let's go to Zepa, let's go to Krivace.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter number 114.
7 Q. I think you have talked about this, I don't think you've -- I
8 think you told us that you didn't see the -- this is the Zepa attack plan
9 that General Krstic still did as Chief of Staff on the -- dated the 13th
10 of July. You might want to just take a look at it. I just want to call
11 our attention to it, because we now have a document that is from the
12 Drina Corps command, the Krivace forward command post. I can't really
13 tell from the material where this came from. I should know that, but I
15 But, do you recall sending out an attack plan to the various
16 units involved in it from the forward command post on the 13th of July?
17 A. Me personally.
18 Q. Well, do you recall whether it was done, not whether you
19 personally did it, but it should have been done according to this
20 document, right? Do you recall it happening? You were there.
21 A. On the 13th in the evening, the Krivace IKM was visited by
22 Colonel Vicic. He was an operative who took part in the Krivaja 95
23 operation, together with General Krstic. On the 13th in the evening
24 he --
25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... explain your answer, but if
1 you give us the answer first, then we will know where you're going with
2 your explanation. So the question is, do you remember sending this
3 document out or somebody from the coms unit sending it out?
4 A. The document, I don't recall if it was sent from the
5 communications centre, but I remember that on the 13th in the evening,
6 Colonel Vicic came to the Krivace IKM and he had these documents for the
7 units that were taking part in the operation of Operation Stupcanica 95,
8 whether any of these documents - and perhaps this order - could have been
9 one of them went out to the units via the communications centre, is
10 something I really do not remember.
11 Q. Can you tell from the type whether that -- that copy I gave you
12 is a teletype that would be sent or received, or could that be something
13 that was, you know, couriered around, like by Vicic or someone?
14 A. The document was typed out. These are not teletype letters in
15 either of the documents. I assume that the units in the Stupcanica 95
16 operation received these documents by courier or Colonel Vicic went to
17 hand them over, the documents at the time when they were arriving from
18 the Srebrenica sector to the Zepa sector to their staging sectors. I
19 think it very unlikely that such a long document would be sent out by
21 Q. Okay. It's also possible you hadn't had the teleprinter working
22 or it hadn't been up yet, is that possible?
23 A. I don't recall having any time intervals when the teleprinter was
24 not working. We did have interference in transmission, but it
25 continuously operated as means of communication, the teletype.
1 Q. All right.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now I want to go to 65 ter 2670B.
3 Q. And I just want to focus for a second. There is an -- well, I
4 think we should get the original for this. If we don't -- I'm sorry, we
5 don't have that. But we can see from this that it is from the -- the
6 command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade to the various people,
7 including the IKM Drina Corps, Krstic personally. And it's about Zepa
8 and UNPROFOR locations.
9 And can we go to --
10 MR. JOSSE: Sorry to interrupt, could we have a translation
11 reference, please I --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I will get there, but I don't want to
13 confuse the issue because we have another version of this that is in
14 English and we'll -- we'll get there, but I want him to look at the end
15 of this first, if I could.
16 MR. JOSSE: I think we should just be given that number.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: In a minute, if you could just wait ten seconds.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's -- I understand he may have his good reasons,
19 so ten seconds is not going to make a difference.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. Can you -- just let me give you the photocopy of this, and if we
22 could show the bottom of the -- of this. Is this Mr. Sekulic again?
23 A. Yes, that's his signature. I wish I had the original of the
24 document here, but undoubtedly this is his signature.
25 Q. Okay. And we have at 65 ter 2670, I believe it's the sent
1 version of this document. So it's in English and it should be identical.
2 What we are looking at now is the received version of it. I'm sorry I
3 don't have the received version in English, but you will confirm for us
4 that this was received by Mr. Sekulic at the Krivace forward command
5 post, correct?
6 A. If this document corresponds to the original on the 14th of July,
7 we were at Krivace, the document is addressed to General Krstic at the
8 IKM. And I have no reason to doubt that he received this at Krivace.
9 Q. Okay. And we see in the handwriting corner, 04/ and now we see a
10 2. Before, we had been seeing 04/1. Do you know if there is a
11 significance? Is it possible one is Pribicevac and 2 is Krivace?
12 A. I told you that I don't know what -- whatever is written up here
13 means, but I don't think 1 refers to Krivace and 2 to another location,
14 but really I don't know what these numbers up here mean. I assume they
15 are markings from a logbook when documents are issued.
16 Q. Fair enough.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 4112, that's B. And there is
18 an English at 4112, but we have the same issue. The English is the -- I
19 believe the English is the received version, and I believe the B/C/S
20 4112B is the sent version because we see this word, I think it's
22 Q. Is that sent?
23 A. To be quite honest, I don't see what it says down here. I don't
24 think anyone in this courtroom can decipher this writing. After the
25 first two letters, it looks as of if it's been internationally scribbled
1 over or scratched out. I really can't see what it says.
2 Q. Well, you will agree that the first two letters are "PR" and the
3 last letter is "O"?
4 A. I only see on the screen when it blown up that the first two
5 letters are "PR." I absolutely agree, but what rest of the word is, is it
6 correct when you say "predato," "handed over," or "primljeno",
7 "received," that, I can't see. Because it's first time that I can see
8 that something is internationally corrected on a document. That's why I
9 always like to see the original. Even someone who speaks Serbian
10 perfectly cannot decipher this.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Focus on the handwritten part and try
12 to zoom in, please, as much as you can. We can try again once more.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I dare assume it says "primljeno,"
14 "received," because we can see a do the on the "i" and the last two
15 letters could be "NO" which would mean that this is the usual way
16 cryptographers wrote that they had received something. So it's probably
17 "primljeno" and not "predato." But really, no one here in this courtroom
18 can decipher that.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. Okay, but we can see that it is from the command of the Drina
22 Corps IKM Krivace, and we can see that it is to the GS VRS. So if it's
23 being sent by Krivace to the VRS, this should be a sent, correct?
24 A. There is a similar version of the writing of the cryptographer
25 Sekulic is something we discussed earlier today, and I explained this to
1 you and you confirmed this with documents, and when he received a
2 confirmation from the communications centre to whom he sent the telegram
3 that they had successfully received it, then he would write "primljeno."
4 What we have here is a specific situation, rather unusual, because the
5 document was sent to the Main Staff and the command of the Drina Corps.
6 And he -- well, the Main Staff was not commanding these operations, so he
7 had to send it through the Drina Corps to the Main Staff indirectly,
8 because to avoid a lower level units, bypassing their immediate superiors
9 and trying to contact their second superiors, they did not have the
10 codes. They could not send things to the Main Staff except through the
11 Drina Corps, that's what happened.
12 Q. Okay. Let's go to another document.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter 4095. This is a document that appears to
14 be original from the Drina Corps collection.
15 Q. I'd like to be able to give you the original, sir. And I am sure
16 you will agree with me that this is the calendar for work days for your
17 unit. And we can see that you're the first person on the list, a Major
18 Milenko Jevdjevic, and we can see that in the remarks section you went to
19 Pribicevac and Zepa. And then if we go down the list we see that Momir
20 Bakmaz also went to Pribicevac and Zepa. We also see that Oliver Sekulic
21 went to Pribicevac and Zepa.
22 Then we go to the next page, and we see Veljko Vukosavljevic went
23 to Pribicevac and Zepa, as did Mirko Plakalovic and Slavisa Ilic and
24 Milorad Stevic. So that's you and six people, which is about what you
25 said, and I am told that the names that you gave us the other day, you
1 got about four of them right, which is pretty good, considering.
2 And my question is, sir, you can see better than anyone that
3 somebody has handwritten in, I can't tell if it's pencil or pen from my
4 copy, but a hard bar between the 12th and the 13th for all those people.
5 And -- I'm sorry, I misread the last two, Slavisa Ilic and Milorad Stevic
6 went to Pribicevac and Trnovo, and -- sorry, and then Stevic went to
7 Pribicevac and Kocar. And their Xs, those last two guys, stop at 12
8 July. And it looks like they get a couple of days off and they are off
9 to Trnovo and Kocar. So it just appears common sense that the guy that's
10 keeping track of attendance has noted that you guys are at Pribicevac
11 through the 12th and Zepa, from the 13th through the -- at least the
12 31st, except for the two guys that went to Trnovo and Kocar, they just
13 stop at the 12th.
14 So isn't this a pretty good indication that you were in
15 Pribicevac until the 12th, Bratunac area, and that from the 13th onward
16 you're at Zepa?
17 A. No, I know the handwriting of the men who did these things in my
18 battalion, but to tell you the truth, I don't remember keeping this
19 document. But I see it's been done with great precision, but what he had
20 in mind when he drew this dividing line at the 12th, we were in Vlasenica
21 on the 12th in the morning fixing our vehicle, replenishing our equipment
22 and our supplies. And in the early afternoon of the 12th, we already set
23 out for Zepa, and for him, when he fills in something in the morning for
24 the next -- or for the next day, that was probably a kind of watershed
25 for him. One terrain was ending, another was starting. It's true that
1 on the 12th in the morning we were in Vlasenica in the corps command, but
2 on the 12th on the afternoon we left for Zepa, and maybe that's what
3 prompted him to do this.
4 If this line is something that he had in mind as something to
5 orient himself by. And I know which of these four men were with me
6 yesterday, and you can also see there were two others, these were young
7 soldiers and I don't remember their names. But every document you show
8 me corroborates what I said.
9 Q. Okay. I don't think we need to argue about that, I don't know if
10 the Court wants to see the original and how it's marked.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is possible, yes. Thank you.
12 Yes, Mr. Haynes.
13 MR. HAYNES: I just wonder whether Mr. McCloskey can give us any
14 assistance as to what information the Prosecution have as to who marked
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, do you have that information?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Do you know who marked it, sir?
19 MR. HAYNES: I wasn't asking the witness.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: He can ask the witness.
21 MR. HAYNES: Well, all right, then we take it Mr. McCloskey
22 doesn't know.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: You're right, I don't know.
24 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, that was all I was asking.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Who do you think marked this?
2 A. I told you, I did not know myself that this kind of detailed
3 document was kept, but I can tell whose handwriting this is. Although,
4 it's not clear to me because you see that there is a very gentle
5 handwriting in these boxes. I don't know who could have entered those
6 marking between the 12th and the 13th, just as I don't know who wrote
7 "primljeno" or "predato," "received" or "sent," but I do recognize the
8 handwriting in this document, but I don't know about these markings
9 between the 12th and the 13th.
10 Q. So whose handwriting do you recognise?
11 A. The handwriting belongs to Bosko Cacic. He was a teacher of the
12 Serbian language in the Rogatica primary school and he was a staff
13 sergeant at the time. I don't know if you need any other information
14 about him. He is my uncle, my mother's brother, by the way. And I kept
15 him with me in the command because he was a teacher and he kept records
16 very punctiliously, as you can see from this.
17 Q. I agree. We agree again.
18 Okay. We are almost done with this topic. Let's go to an
19 intercept, 65 ter 4087. This is an intercept which is short, so you
20 should be able to see the whole thing up on the screen. It's from the
21 Muslims, the fellows at the Konjuh site, dated 12 July. And I want to
22 take you to the second one, it says "zone 2." It is at frequency
23 255.850, which we know is the RRU-1. And a participant Major Jevdjevic
24 and a switchboard.
25 And Jevdjevic says: "From now on we are going to be at Badem,
1 extension 385, and you can reach Badem through Zlatar."
2 And then they say: "Okay."
3 Where is Badem?
4 A. Can you explain show me the original or a hard copy because this
5 is very pale and I really can't read it.
6 Q. Sorry. I have got some handwritten notes on the bottom, but I
7 can give you that if it's okay. Now, this is at 1850 hours. Can you
8 tell us where -- what -- what does Badem mean?
9 A. Badem is a word I am familiar with. I don't know who it refers
10 to. Zlatar is the Drina Corps command, that I was at 385, that's the
11 extension I described to you. I don't deny that. That was the extension
12 at Pribicevac and at Krivace, the forward command post there. If the
13 date and time are correct, and if the conversation is correctly recorded,
14 but with what switchboard was I speaking? Was it the one in the Drina
15 Corps, then that person would probably have entered it as Zlatar if it
16 was a switchboard in one of the brigades. But it's correct I was at 385,
17 the time 1850, the 12th of July, I was at Krivace at the time. Probably
18 I was informing someone that I had already arrived at Krivace and that
19 they could communicate with me at 385 by way of Zlatar.
20 I've read many of these intercepts, but this one contains very
21 little information. So it's very difficult for me to find my way around
22 it. I am probably telling someone that I am at 385, that's correct, and
23 that they can reach me through Zlatar. So it was someone who needed to
24 be informed that I was at a completely different location and that is
25 consistent with my testimony that I was already at Krivace at that time
1 and I am informing someone about that and that's all I can tell from this
3 Q. Now, it says in English:
4 "From now on we are going to be at Badem."
5 And from English we cannot quite tell if you're there at that
6 time or you're going to be there. Do you know from your language and
7 from your memory of this, if any, were you at Badem when you said this or
8 were you going to soon be there?
9 A. I don't know what the word "Badem" refers to. I don't know what
10 code name it could be.
11 Q. We'll get to that, but that's not my question. My question is,
12 wherever this place is, do you remember whether you were there when you
13 said it or whether you were about to be there? I mean, I don't know how
14 Serbian deals with this -- this -- sometimes tenses can be confused.
15 A. Well, this could be the code name of some station or centre. I
16 won't go into that. But it jogs my memory. It means from that point on,
17 that was your question, from that point in time I was discussing
18 something with someone, I was conversing with someone. I don't know who,
19 the person listening, I don't know who, I am telling him that I am at a
20 new location. He asked me where I am, I tell him at 385 and you can
21 reach me through Zlatar. Why Badem appears here, I don't know. I can't
22 link it up with everything else, but the other information I have just
23 told you, I can remember that.
24 JUDGE KWON: How about letting him read that and then hear the
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a good point.
2 Q. I am going to read this to you in English and see if you think
3 this is a --
4 JUDGE KWON: Instead of you reading it, have the witness read it.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Have the witness read it. Thank you.
6 Q. Can you just slowly read to us the intercept as you see it down
7 there, starting with J?
8 A. "From now on, we shall be at Badem, at extension 385, and you can
9 reach Badem through Zlatar."
10 Q. Thank you. I think that's clear, and so you know it's the
11 position of the Prosecution - and I dare say it's been proven beyond a
12 reasonable doubt in Krstic and in Blagojevic - and it's not contested
13 here, sir, that Badem is the code name for Bratunac.
14 A. That's very possible. It was the code name of one of the
15 brigades, and it's quite possible.
16 Q. It's more than possible, sir. And according to this intercept
17 you're at Bratunac on the 12th of July at 1850 hours.
18 A. No. Bratunac and the switchboard at Bratunac did not have
19 extension 385. Extension 385 existed only at Pribicevac and Krivace.
20 Later on, at Godjenje. It never worked in Bratunac. That's why I said
21 that this information does not tell me -- well, there isn't enough data
22 here for me to be able to interpret this. What is significant here is
23 that I am at extension 385, and you know very well where extension 385
24 was located, and you know very well that it never functioned in Bratunac
25 but exclusively at Pribicevac, Krivace, Godjenje, and finally at Zlovrh
1 [as interpreted]. That's my response to you, and I am absolutely certain
2 of it.
3 Q. Well, sir, I don't think we can -- any point in arguing over
4 that --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- unless Mr. Josse wants to.
6 MR. JOSSE: It's not really my battle. It's not my battle, Your
7 Honour, but it's simply Mr. McCloskey continually makes speeches of that
8 sort. I show a little bit of exasperation. I apologise. If he's got an
9 answer to what the witness has just said, we suggest he should put it.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: He may -- yes, Mr. Haynes.
11 MR. HAYNES: And I -- just on this document, it's be called an
12 intercept. It is in fact a report. I wonder if the Prosecution can give
13 us a time that the report was sent on the 12th of July.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I would suggest you concentrate on what
15 Mr. Haynes has just raised, first.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I am open for questions, Your Honour, at all
17 times. But I think I would rather finish my cross-examination. I will
18 try to look into the document as much as is possible.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's --
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's received from the BiH. We believe it to
21 be reliable.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Could we see the notebook where this intercept
24 was noted?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have the notebook available, if there is a
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I did not -- did not find it in a notebook.
3 Perhaps as --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- Mr. Haynes points out, it's a report --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, let's proceed.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. And looking at the top of -- the top of this, just, I don't want
9 to get into it too much, but it's -- it says "Titanic, 90701, Atlanta
10 bunch of numbers. These are things that are said orally over the radio,
12 A. I assume that the surveillance group at Konjuh recorded these
13 participants and conveyed this to their superior command and they then
14 informed someone about that in this report -- or, rather, they sent the
15 report on the 27th. They were informing someone. Probably you can see
16 that better at the end of the document.
17 Q. My question is, I don't think there -- can you tell us -- it
18 sounds like this is coded traffic picked up by the Muslims, correct,
19 verbal coded traffic?
20 A. Believe me, I am doing my very best to use all my knowledge and
21 experience from that period, but this looks like a very insignificant
22 intercept from which I can conclude nothing. The participants are 1 and
23 2. There are question marks next to them. Then he says the conversation
24 was not recorded from its beginning --
25 Q. Simple question, simple question, is this a coded oral
2 A. It doesn't remind me of anything. It doesn't remind me of
3 anything from my experience. It's not logical to me.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may we get an indication who identified
6 the witness as the collocatur in this conversation?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Muslims army, as a start. Let me see if I can go
9 back to the document again. I thought it was over.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Shall we have the break now and you try
11 to find this out if it is possible.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, yes, sir.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. 25 minutes.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Colonel, we are almost through. Just want to go to another topic
19 now, and hopefully pretty briefly, but this Court has heard evidence
20 about the little gathering that General Mladic had of the staff at the
21 Drina Corps on the evening of the 13th appointing Krstic commander. You
22 surely heard about that, didn't you?
23 A. We are talking about the 13th; is that right?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Yes, I said that in my previous testimony that I -- or I heard
1 that information from another source, because I was at the IKM Krivace on
2 that day. I didn't receive the telegram that the command of the Drina
3 Corps sent out to all the other units about this matter.
4 Q. Well, let me remind you what you said in Krstic on this point.
5 And it's at page 7104.
6 You were asked "Do you know what position General Krstic held in
7 the command of Drina Corps to the 13th July, 1995?"
8 And you said: "I think that General Tolimir was the Chief of
9 Staff at the corps."
10 And then you were asked:
11 "Do you have any knowledge as to when General Krstic became
12 commander of the Drina Corps?"
13 And you said: "I know that this is an important question,
14 because in my preparations for my testimony here, I read the order of the
15 president of the Republika Srpska dated 13 July, appointing General
16 Krstic commander of the Drina Corps because it is only the president who
17 has the authority to appoint people to these strategic groupings and
19 We heard about that, but you go on:
20 "While we were at Zepa, whether it was over the media or in some
21 other way, anyway, we learned of the decree of the president of the
22 republic. And I know that sometime around the 20th of July, or
23 thereabouts, there was a gathering of generals in the facility close to
24 Han Pijesak. There were a number of generals from the Main Staff and the
25 commanders of the other corps, and also present were General Zivanovic
1 and General Krstic. And I know that the event was organised to observe
2 the hand-over of duty by the commander of the Drina Corps. And I know
3 that after General Krstic's return to the forward command post in the
4 village of Godjenje, some people congratulated him on his taking over of
5 duty. I wish to mention that in that period we were at a location which
6 had very little information outside those related to combat operations in
7 Zepa and around it, and General Krstic himself did not talk about his
8 appointment with us other officers."
9 You never mentioned in your testimony or your statement anything
10 about knowing about the little ceremony that happened on the evening of
11 the 13th. So, sir, as you sit here today do you recall knowing about
12 that ceremony on the 13th or do you stand solely by what I just read?
13 A. In the meantime, I heard that probably then, too, this
14 information secondhand, that General Mladic lined up some people at the
15 Drina Corps command and said that General Krstic would be the commander
16 of the corps. This is what I heard secondhand. I didn't have that
17 information myself, because at that time I was not in the village of
19 Q. So did you have that information when you testified in Krstic,
20 because you didn't tell us about it in trial? In fact, you said what you
21 just said, you didn't have much information. You guys were dealing with
23 A. Yes, yes. Everything that I said at that time in the Krstic case
24 was my information that I had had up until then.
25 Q. So despite the fact that General Mladic appointed Krstic
1 commander on the 13th, you were not aware of it on the 14th, or 15th, or
2 the 16th, or the 17th, or the 18th, or 19th?
3 A. I could have had the information only if I had the specific
4 precise information, and I would have been able to form my opinion on the
5 basis of the actual situation that was then. So if I had testified about
6 something the week before, as far as I was concerned, it was illogical to
7 me, for example, that the new Chief of Staff, Colonel Andric, would lead
8 his hundred soldiers throughout the entire Zepa operation and to have the
9 corps commander, General Krstic, there as well, who was commanding the
10 Zepa operation. And that at that time no one was at the Vlasenica
11 command post to lead the entire corps zone and to deal particularly with
12 the problems that the Zvornik Brigade was encountering at that time.
13 So my testimony at that time was based exclusively on the events
14 that were happening out in the field and the information about the actual
15 situation as it was. In the meantime, and while preparing for testimony
16 in this trial, I really did see the document that the personnel officer
17 of the Drina Corps, on the 13th of July, sent to all the units informing
18 them about hand-over of duty. But this document is something that I just
19 saw a few days ago.
20 Q. Sir, it's the position of the Prosecution that, given the
21 appointment of General Krstic on the evening of 13 July, you as his coms
22 person, that would have been sending out information under his name as
23 commander and closely working with him, would have absolutely known that
24 he was commander on the 13th or 14th of July and that for you to say
25 anything otherwise is false. What do you have to say about?
1 A. I never drafted the information that you are referring to,
2 because the nature of my duties was such that I was executing the
3 implementation of the communication plan that I would receive from the
4 chief of communications. I never drafted information or had access or an
5 insight into information being drafted by Colonel Vicic or anyone else at
6 the IKM and that was being forwarded to others. So I was not aware about
7 the contents at that time.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 118B.
10 Q. And let me give you the -- let me give you the original of that.
11 And maybe I might have got the wrong 65 ter number. But one out of five
12 hours isn't a bad record.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could focus on the screen on the B/C/S
14 original. This is a copy of that personnel document that was -- we've
15 seen versions of it before. This one in particular was sent out to your
16 communications battalion.
17 Q. And I want you to focus on that handwriting up in the right-hand
18 corner. Isn't that your handwriting?
19 A. No. [No interpretation].
20 Q. I'm sorry. We didn't get the interpretation for your last
21 comment, I don't think.
22 A. This is not my handwriting.
23 Q. But this is to your unit; is that correct?
24 A. That is correct. The document arrived at the communications
25 battalion on the 13th of July, and probably on the 14th of July it was
1 logged in at the communications battalion in Vlasenica. The handwriting
2 is by the general affairs desk officer in the battalion, this is the
3 staff sergeant Bosko Cacic, whom we mentioned, so it probably arrived at
4 the battalion in Vlasenica on the 13th of July. And then on the 14th he
5 wrote that here, I mean, there's not that important. I was at the
6 Krivace IKM and I was focused on the Stupcanica 95 operation and the
7 document did not end up on my hands. So I came back from this operation
8 later, about 20 days later, more or less, and I do not believe that 20
9 days later I went through all the documents. I mean, not that I don't
10 believe that I did that. I know that I did not do that, i.e., look over
11 all the documents that in the meantime had arrived at my units which
12 usually normally functions in my absence. And as I said, this document
13 never did reach the Krivace IKM, either.
14 Q. I just asked you that because we have what we believe are copies
15 of your handwriting, and that very distinctive swirls and things looks
16 like you, but fair enough. We won't argue over that.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to some last few intercepts.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, if you allow me,
19 sir, if you permit me, please. This handwriting on the screen - and this
20 is why I laughed - is the handwriting of that uncle of mine, who probably
21 has the most beautiful Cyrillic handwriting that I ever saw. I, as a
22 child, learned and practiced to write the way he wrote, and you -- I can
23 give you my notebooks and also his handwriting, his diaries and so on.
24 Many people actually compare the two of us, because I wanted to resemble
25 my uncle. I respect him still today, and you probably looked at my
1 handwriting and this specific letter "P," but actually this is his
2 handwriting and his handwriting is much more beautiful than mine.
3 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Let's go to 65 ter 1255C and D. And I can
4 give you a printed out copy of that. It's the one that starts at 2050
5 hours. There is a couple of them on there, but the one I'm -- this is,
6 just so you know, 18 July as a reference. We won't spend much time with
7 this, but it's -- it's between Krstic, they assume it's Krstic, and an X.
8 And we've heard that your nickname is Jevdjo and --
9 A. Jevdjo.
10 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't see that little cross in the D, Jevdjo. And
11 what I want to ask you about is it looks like Krstic is asking if you're
12 around somewhere, and X says:
13 "He is coming down there, too."
14 And Krstic says: "Good, I have to see the man, the KZ." We know
15 that's cryptographic protection. He calls the KZ man an MF.
16 And then says:
17 "I guess we will finally be able to talk to each other. The
18 other one is broken."
19 So did you have some broken KZ protection problems around 18 July
20 that you remember?
21 A. I'm -- we are talking now about this second intercept, right, the
22 other one, which is on the lower half of the page?
23 Q. Right.
24 A. Just let me read the conversation and then I may be able to
25 understand something because whoever was intercepting this was assuming
1 that one of the participants was Krstic, and he marked the other one as
2 unknown. He marked him as "X." But I still don't see my name anywhere,
3 but just let me read the conversation, please.
4 Q. Okay. I don't think your name is anywhere. It's just talking
5 about crypto-protection and they think it's Krstic at the command and
6 he's got problems, and perhaps you recall that. If not, we can go on.
7 A. Oh, yes, I remember the situation when Mr. Harmon, the
8 Prosecutor, asked me how many times I went from the forward command post
9 at Zepa to Vlasenica, and I told him I went there once. And he asked me
10 when that was. And I said, more or less the time I needed to take a bath
11 and run some errands concerning the unit. He asked me precisely when
12 that was, and I said maybe it was about ten days of rest. But now I see
13 it was on the 18th.
14 And, yes, I remember this conversation -- or, rather, I remember
15 not this conversation but these activities. So I assume that the
16 conversation is authentic. Can you please put your question to me now, I
18 Q. Do you remember the KZ equipment not working so they had to bring
19 in the KZ man to fix it, and now you will finally be able to talk
20 protected? When I say "you," I mean the VRS.
21 A. Yes. Well, first, I conclude what whoever was intercepting this
22 conversation, well, he was wrong. This is not a conversation between
23 Krstic and someone else, because it certainly wasn't Krstic who was
24 engaged in this discussion. It shows -- it says here that he should look
25 at this KZ, so it's probably not Krstic, whoever was intercepting this
1 switched things around. We had those cryptographic protection devices in
2 reserve. And I don't think that there's a shred of evidence so far that
3 there was a conversation between Krstic and officers subordinate to him
4 in Krivaja 95 and Stupcanica 95 which was intercepted. If this device
5 was out of order, then everyone in the network would get only a hissing
6 sound, and that would be a signal that the device was out of order and we
7 would immediately intervene and replace it. And maybe this happened just
8 once, but -- among the participants, but we did have reserve devices at
9 the forward command post so as to be able to intervene, and that's all I
10 can say about this.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 1295A and 1295B.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, while we are
14 waiting for that document, I was just looking at the document that was
15 left on the screen before the break concerning that intercept in which
16 the participants were not identified. But in that conversation where I
17 am informing someone that we were at Badem at extension 385, I think that
18 that report and the date when this -- if we had the precise date when
19 this conversation was intercepted then we would know precisely when the
20 communications centre at Pribicevac ceased to exist because he said "At
21 1900 hours, the wavelength ceased to exist," and that was exactly when I
22 switched off my equipment at Pribicevac at 1900 hours. I think that this
23 report was drawn up the previous day.
24 I apologise for taking up your time, but if we knew exactly when
25 this conversation was intercepted, it would be completely clear to you
1 that the communications centre at the forward command post ceased to
2 exist at 1900 hours because it says that in that intercept and it's quite
3 logical that I told someone I was going towards Bratunac, down there, and
4 it would be a very good thing. It would be very important as far as what
5 you are saying goes if we had this piece of information.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's go to 1295A, 1295B. I think we have
7 got it up there.
8 Q. This is a short conversation where the Palma, which we know is
9 Zvornik, is calling Zlatar and asked if Jevdjevic is on the line, and
10 according to this, Jevdjevic says "yes."
12 looking for you," and he asks why the chief up there had been looking for
13 him. This is dated 21 July, by the way.
14 And then Jevdjevic says: "Only to ask what it's like there."
15 And then Palma
16 Krajina men, everything is all right, we repelled today's attacks and are
17 working as planned."
18 Jevdjevic says: "All right, tell him I personally said hello."
20 Jevdjevic says: "No."
22 nice day."
23 This appears to be to us that Krstic was looking for Pandurevic,
24 Pandurevic gets back him and asks why Krstic, the boss, the chief, was
25 looking for him. And then Palma
1 is returning the Krajina men who were in his zone and that you say to say
2 hello to Pandurevic and then it ends. Is that about right?
3 A. I don't remember that conversation, but I allow that it's very
4 possible. Considering the conversation, my knowledge of the then
5 situation, I allow that it's possible, but I don't really remember this
6 conversation. I was talking to someone in the command of the Zvornik
7 Brigade if that's correct.
8 Q. Okay. Let's look at another one.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 26th July, 65 ter 1353 A in the English and
10 C in the B/C/S. This is a conversation between Major Jevdjevic and
11 Vinko. And C is under seal.
12 Q. I can give you a hard copy if that's easier to read. It's the
13 middle one starting at 0807, 0807 hours. This just is a simple
14 conversation. It appears Colonel Pandurevic is -- he asked early on:
15 "Are they going to ask me to go there?"
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
17 MR. HAYNES: There are two different intercepts on the screen.
18 The translation doesn't correspond.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, page 2 in the B/C/S where I mentioned the
21 Q. And the Vinko who I am interpreting to be Vinko Pandurevic,
22 correct me if you think I am wrong, asks a few lines down:
23 "Are they going to ask me to go there?"
24 26 July, it sounds like Pandurevic is naturally wondering if he's
25 going to be called to go to Zepa. And later on he says he's been
1 thinking of sending Jovovic or Legenda down there. Do you have any
2 memory of that?
3 A. I remember parts of this conversation if it was intercepted in
4 its entirety that's possible. I remember some parts of it. The
5 conversation resembles the usual sort of conversation I would have then,
6 a logical conversation between General Pandurevic and myself. The
7 situation reflects what I knew at that time, that is that negotiations
8 were underway, that the guns had been silent for two days, that there was
9 probably an agreement that civilians and soldiers alike should be
10 evacuated from Zepa. I remember that that had been agreed on, and the
11 rest of the conversation is probably something that I need not doubt.
12 Although, some things I find unclear, but as a whole this intercept seems
13 familiar to me.
14 Q. Okay. Now, the end of July were you still in the Zepa operation,
15 like 29, 30 July?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember when members of the Zepa Brigade were going
18 across the Drina
19 A. I assume that you said Zepa Brigade, I received the
20 interpretation that they were members of the Zvornik Brigade who were
21 crossing the Drina
22 Q. No. That's one thing we don't have here. Yes, I meant the
23 Muslim Brigade, the Muslim Zepa Brigade.
24 A. We had this information at the IKM literally during the last two
25 days of my stay there, at the IKM, meaning my stay there. I recall the
1 events after the evacuation of the civilian population when the Zepa
2 Brigade, for certain reasons, did not wish to evacuate - although I know
3 agreements were reached about this - they probably assessed pursuant to
4 an order or something. So -- and then from the Zepa section they began
5 to withdraw towards the mountain range between Zepa and Srebrenica
6 towards terrain called Zepska Koliba, and the trig point of Zlovrh, and
7 then our units embarked upon a purely military action called "Chasing the
8 enemy." And then I assume that this action lasted for about three days,
9 the 27th, 28th, and the 29th, when our units then came to those
10 elevations of the Zepska Koliba and Zlovrh, where the Zepa brigade put up
11 its last-ditch resistance. And during that process I recall very well
12 Colonel Trivic, the commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade was wounded.
13 After that we moved the IKM to the Zlovrh sector itself, for a
14 while the situation was unclear since this is a vast wooded area through
15 which the Zepa Brigade and the units from Srebrenica -- towards
16 Srebrenica, Olovo, and Kladanj, communicated frequently. We didn't have
17 clear information about where they were actually going to. One of the --
18 among the information was one that the group wanted to break through
19 Radavana Kopusa [phoen], Cina [phoen], Han Pogled, and Olovo, and then we
20 received information that the main part of the Zepa Brigade had descended
21 through the Crni Potok sector and that they had crossed the river Drina
22 in an improvised manner and crossed over to the west bank which is where
23 they surrendered to the border outpost in Serbia.
24 This is the information which I generally have now told you,
25 according to what I can remember.
1 Q. Okay. Well, let's look at an intercept about -- it's dated 29
2 July. It's 65 ter 4088. And I've got a simple copy I can give to you.
3 It's printed out. 29 July, 1995
4 we are talking RRU-1.
5 "Participants, Major Jevdjevic-1?" And they are telling us it's
6 not from the beginning, so they interrupt this conversation, and they
7 catch you at the last -- your last thing is:
8 "To aim across the river."
9 And then one seems to repeat:
10 "To aim across the river?"
11 And Jevdjevic says: "Yes, yes."
12 And then 1 says: "Hello, Rajko, did you understand him, to aim
13 across the river?"
14 And Jevdjevic says: "That's it, that's it."
15 1 says: "At which targets?"
16 And Jevdjevic says: "The ones he can see.
17 And 1 says: "Which he can see?"
18 And Jevdjevic says: "Yes, the ones he can see well."
19 Number 1 says: "So to aim from the side at targets he can see."
20 Jevdjevic says: "Across the river."
21 1 says" "across the river? Okay."
22 Jevdjevic says: "And he is on the right side, isn't he?"
23 Number 1 says: "Yes."
24 Jevdjevic says: "Fine, thanks, bye."
25 And 1 says: "Just tell me, who am I talking to."
1 And Jevdjevic says: "Major Jevdjevic."
2 And 1 says: "Okay."
3 So from this it sounds like you're telling someone from the right
4 side of the Drina
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And is it those -- the Muslim army that we are talking about that
7 were trying to get across the river?
8 A. Who are you thinking of, specifically?
9 Q. The Zepa Brigade guys that you just told us about, that you were
10 chasing them and they were taking off trying to get away across the
12 A. "Chasing" is a military term for an operation when the enemy is
13 pulling out of the encirclement, and this is how all the units refer to
14 this particular action. This is not persecution or hunting, it's just
15 the same military term as other military terms. This intercept is not
16 something that was monitored from the beginning. I don't know who the
17 other participant is. I don't know who Rajko is. I do remember the
19 We, on the right-hand side of the Drina, opposite from Zepa, is
20 the municipality of Visegrad
21 always had a battalion stationed there, a battalion of the Visegrad
22 Brigade, on the right bank of the river. I think we talked about this
23 yesterday, the left and the right bank. Probably you wanted to put that
24 question to me then, and I told you that for the most part of the river
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. I have not completed. The interpreter has just warned me to slow
3 down because of the interpretation.
4 I think that you recall that yesterday I mentioned that on the
5 right-hand side or the right bank of the river is the territory of
6 Republika Srpska with three municipalities, Rudo, Cajnice, and Visegrad.
7 On the right-hand side of the Drina
8 a battalion of the Visegrad Brigade which was permanently holding those
9 positions, and then from the opposite bank they were able to see better
10 targets of the Zepa Brigade on the left bank which was trying to pull out
11 of our range as we were chasing it. They were able to view better and
12 fire at those targets from the right bank, which is Republika Srpska, to
13 the left bank, which is also Republika Srpska.
14 And this conversation probably refers to the fact that I, since
15 we did not have direct communication with that unit via an intermediary,
16 I was conveying Krstic's orders or whoever's orders they were, to look at
17 and be able to see targets better from the other side of the Drina
18 aim at the left bank of the Drina
19 Q. So you're passing on the order of General Krstic to fire at the
21 A. Yes, because at the time we had information that a unit of the
22 Zepa Brigade was pulling out through that canyon, through Serbia -- to
24 lower point, in a depression, as compared to us. But people on the other
25 side of the canyon were able to see them better. Our unit on the other
1 side of the canyon, and then probably General Krstic, probably conveyed
2 to me, via communications that I should transmit this information to the
3 unit on the right bank, that they should fire at targets on the left bank
4 of the river. This is my interpretation of the conversation. It's a
5 legitimate military act and quite understandable in the relevant period.
6 Q. Okay. Just a last question. You were asked about General Gvero
7 briefly and a specific date was mentioned, 23 July. I want to show you
8 what is a summary of an intercept that we received from the Croatian
9 government on that point and get your comment on it.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, before you do that we hear what Mr. Josse has
11 to say.
12 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, I am in the Court's hands. I am
13 going to object to this. We had an advanced warning in the list that
14 this particular document was going to be referred to. I wish to make a
15 submission now. It will take a few minutes, I am bound to say. I'll
16 make it now, because I am wary of what Your Honour had said at page
17 28756, some weeks ago, that really an objection needed to be taken at the
18 point a particular exhibit was being referred to and relied upon.
19 It's a technical objection, but as I say, it will take me a few
20 minutes to develop.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. A few minutes, what do you mean?
22 MR. JOSSE: These minutes, I suspect.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, we've got five.
24 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps five. Again, I am in the Court's hands.
25 It's technical. I don't think it really matters if the witness was to
1 hear this.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
3 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the position is this. As my learned
4 friend has just said, this particular intercept comes from a Croatian
5 collection, and if I could start by referring the Court to what
6 Mr. McCloskey said about these sort of intercepts on the 4th of December,
7 at page 29253 of the transcript. My learned friend Madam Fauveau was
8 cross-examining -- or it may have been examining in chief, to be price,
9 and Mr. McCloskey says:
10 "I just wanted to make a point. The intercepts Ms. Fauveau is
11 using are, my understanding, is that they are from the Croatian forces.
12 I don't know a whole lot about them. Frankly, if she can just identify
13 them as from the Croatian forces as each one that's clear on the record,
14 I don't think we are going to have an objection from them. But I think
15 it's important to be able to distinguish between these and the ones that
16 we know so much about."
17 So I accept that there Mr. McCloskey was allowing my learned
18 friend to use the document, but he was advising caution. What we say is
19 this: The Prosecution used a great many intercepts in the course of its
20 case. In relation to those intercepts, the operators were all called to
21 give evidence. They were called in part because the Prosecution
22 initially sought to exhibit the documents through those particular
23 intercept operators. I probably needn't go into this in any detail, the
24 Court is very familiar with this, under Rule 92. And then in the 12th --
25 on the 12th of September, 2006, this Trial Chamber decided that those
1 intercept operators who gave evidence about intercepts that went to the
2 acts and conduct of an accused person all had to be called.
3 Really, it's our submission that it would be an absurd and
4 perverse result in this case if the Prosecution could now use an
5 intercept that goes to an act and conduct, and this one undoubtedly does.
6 The Chamber may not have seen it yet, but I am sure my learned friend
7 will concede this goes to acts and conduct because it relates to
8 something my client is alleged to have done or places he's alleged to
9 have been on the 23rd of July, if the operator is not called. It would
10 be absolutely, as I say, absurd and perverse result.
11 So it's a technical objection, I accept, but it's an important
12 technical objection bearing in mind how intercept evidence has been
13 presented hitherto in this particular case. And Mr. McCloskey said,
14 rightfully, that one needs to be cautious in relation to these Croatian
15 intercepts s. We say particular caution needs to be given. He may not
16 have taken that point. That was his decision. We do take this point in
17 relation to this intercept.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Josse. Do you wish to comment,
19 Mr. McCloskey, briefly.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, I did not object to the use
21 of those intercepts. That is because I felt they had a sufficient
22 foundation for the Court to be able to gain some meaning from them. And
23 I know more about them now than I did then, but this is cross-examination
24 and we didn't deal with the specific date of 23 July and General Gvero;
25 they did. They brought that up with this witness, and I'm sorry I can't
1 remember all the details on why they did that. But they were clearly
2 making a point. Something to do with Gvero is concerned about the
3 western front, that everybody is going to the western front, which we
4 know is the Krajina.
5 This is a point they specifically made through I think
6 probably ab -- was it an intercept that was or was not in evidence. So
7 they have made that point. That point is sitting there. Now, I have an
8 intercept that responds to that particular day. It's a particular
9 intercept that has to do with Gvero on that very particular day, and I
10 would like to have a chance to question this witness about it. We chose
11 not to use this in our case in chief. We haven't been holding this back.
12 It would never have seen the light of day had they not mentioned this
13 particular date, and then we went and, lo and behold, here is an
14 intercept that helps get us to the truth, I believe. Shouldn't we be
15 able to see it? Can't I respond?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, very briefly.
17 MR. JOSSE: Save the truth point, I accept everything my learned
18 friend has said. It simply doesn't answer the objection.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
20 MR. JOSSE: He has not given one argument, in our submission, as
21 to why I am wrong.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will come back to you tomorrow
23 morning. We will continue at 9.00.
24 How much longer do you think you will be cross-examining the
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is the last intercept.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. But still, I assume there will
3 be a redirect, so we have to adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.
4 Do you have an idea the approximate length of your redirect,
5 Mr. Petrusic?
6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I won't need a lot of time,
7 Mr. President. If I need to specify the time, perhaps it would be about
8 15 minutes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Haynes?
10 MR. HAYNES: I will be rather longer than that.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You will be rather long.
12 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Zivanovic.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 15 minutes, approximately.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we will have most of the day again
16 tomorrow. Thank you.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
18 1.47 p.m.
19 17th day of December, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.