Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31156

 1                           Tuesday, 10 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call

 7     the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you so much, ma'am.  All the accused are

11     present.  Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey alone.  From the Defence teams I

12     only notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic and the Beara team.

13             So I take it there are no preliminaries?  So Mr. Haynes, you may

14     proceed.  Thank you.

15             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you.

17             MR. HAYNES:  Good morning to you, too.

18                           WITNESS:  VINKO PANDUREVIC [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Examination by Mr. Haynes [Continued]

21        Q.   General Pandurevic, we left off yesterday afternoon on the 23rd

22     of July when you heard -- had a meeting with Dragan Obrenovic following a

23     briefing of the commanders at the barracks of the Zvornik Brigade.  I

24     just want to finish the events of the 23rd of July before retracing our

25     steps to deal with an issue we were talking about just prior to that.

Page 31157

 1             MR. HAYNES:  So if we can start, please, by having a look at the

 2     regular combat report for the 23rd of July, which is P341.

 3        Q.   And we can see that under paragraph 1 is the usual description of

 4     the combat situation which reads:

 5             "At 2100 hours last night the Turks launched and infantry attack

 6     against the defence of the 3rd Battalion."

 7             And at 0045:

 8             "The enemy launched a strong infantry attack from behind the 2nd

 9     Infantry Company of the 4th Battalion."

10             Using that as an aid-memoire, what was the general combat

11     situation on the 23rd of July in the zone of the brigade?

12        A.   I think that this report demonstrates the situation quite

13     clearly.  The first item talks about enemy activity, and that they were

14     pronounced.  The second item talks about the activities of the Zvornik

15     Brigade in response to enemy activity.  There were captured, also

16     casualties.

17        Q.   You've drawn me on to the next point which is if we look at

18     paragraph 3 of the report and in particular the last sentence we see it

19     says:

20                 "20 enemy soldiers were killed today, and seven captured."

21             Were you still, as it were, spending your days at the command in

22     the barracks on the 23rd of July?

23        A.   Yes, during the day there was a briefing and I spent most of the

24     day at the command.  First I just want to say that the information about

25     the number of enemy soldiers who were killed might be exaggerated because

Page 31158

 1     we couldn't have known the exact number, but usually these were round

 2     numbers.

 3        Q.   But in relation to those that were captured, is a regular combat

 4     report the only document in which the capture of enemy soldiers was

 5     recorded by the brigade, or was it recorded somewhere else?

 6        A.   I think that the information was noted in the duty operations

 7     log-book of the barracks, and that the duty officers also mentioned the

 8     information in his log-book.  Possibly something was also written down in

 9     the operations diary.

10        Q.   Well, we'll come on to that in just a minute.

11             MR. HAYNES:  If we can go to the second page of this document,

12     there's just one more aspect of it I'd like your comments on, which is

13     paragraph 8.

14        Q.   It reads:

15                 "Requests:  As requested by command organs.  Requests

16     relating to fuel and ammunition of all calibres should be considered

17     particularly seriously.  The MUP should be urgently requested for a unit

18     to use in our brigade's area of responsibility by tomorrow, the 24th of

19     July at 0600 hours at the latest."

20             Why was it necessary to address that request to corps command?

21        A.   I think that in the course of the 18th the MUP units, which were

22     under my command, were leaving the Baljkovica area, and then the units of

23     the public security centre in Zvornik were engaged under Vasic's command

24     to carry out certain tasks of searching the terrain.  This request

25     probably refer to a coordination of the activities so that we would know

Page 31159

 1     who was doing what.

 2             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  Now, I just want to conclude that day by

 3     looking at the duty officers' notebook, P377.  If Ms. Stewart would be

 4     good enough to provide you again with the hard copy, you can look at

 5     pages 795 and 796.  Those of us looking at e-court need to look at page

 6     177 to start off with.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Now, a fairly straightforward point, if we look at the bottom of

 8     that page, General Pandurevic, we can see the familiar telephone number,

 9     589-991 just before an entry at 2025.  Does that help to refresh your

10     memory as to what time on the 23rd of July you left the barracks?

11        A.   It was my habit that when I was in the brigade, any time I was

12     outside of the brigade somewhere in Zvornik, I would leave the number

13     where I would be, where I could be found.  This is the number in Celopek

14     where I spent my free time.  And if this duty officer wrote down this in

15     the proper sequence of events, then this would be the time of around 2000

16     hours.

17        Q.   And would that be the time about which you left on that evening?

18        A.   Yes, that would be the time.  Yes.

19             MR. HAYNES:  Can we just go over the page, please.  Your 796, our

20     178.

21        Q.   And it's the entry just under the underlined portion about

22     "Strbac, wake up at 0430," which says "chief's driver Vule at 0430

23     hours."  Who was Vule, and to what does this appear to relate?

24        A.   I can this is the driver of the Chief of Staff, Dragan Obrenovic.

25     I don't know his last name, this Vule, but what's written down here is

Page 31160

 1     that the operations officer was waking him up at 0430 hours.

 2        Q.   Do you have a recollection now of whether Obrenovic remained at

 3     the barracks after you left on the 23rd of July, 1995?

 4        A.   I know that I issued an assignment to Obrenovic to be in

 5     connection with the corps command and that pursuant to our request to

 6     begin resolving the question of the prisoners and their transport to

 7     Batkovic as soon as possible, to be in communication with Colonel Cerovic

 8     and as soon as he received instructions from him he was to start

 9     organising the transport of the prisoners of war to Batkovic.  As I was

10     leaving the barracks -- I mean, I left the barracks and from what I

11     recall he stayed at the command, which doesn't mean that occasionally he

12     could have been at some other place.

13        Q.   But prior to your departure on the 23rd of July, were you aware

14     of any prisoners being transported away from the barracks?

15        A.   Not during the day, but in the morning, at the morning briefing I

16     found out that the first group of prisoners had gone to Batkovic.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And let's just, as it were, retrace our steps and

18     deal --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Haynes, I just wonder whether the witness has

20     any comment on the entry which appears just before that.

21             MR. HAYNES:  The 031-854-389?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Who was that "I."

23             MR. HAYNES:

24        Q.   Who is the duty officer on the evening of the 23rd of July?

25        A.   I said yesterday that Ljubo Bojanovic was the duty officer and

Page 31161

 1     this entry that His Honour is speaking about is written with a different

 2     handwriting, so it could have been that it was the assistant duty

 3     operations officer of Ljubo Bojanovic.

 4        Q.   Perhaps most importantly, is it your comment?

 5        A.   I cannot give any specific comment on this.  I just listened to

 6     the testimony of Ljubo Bojanovic, and in the Jokic and Blagojevic case he

 7     said -- or he gave his comments on this entry.  I could repeat it but

 8     this is not my direct knowledge.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder whether you were to be reported by the duty

10     operations officer later on, or you read these entries later on?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've never had this

12     notebook in my hands before.  I've never read it.  The duty operations

13     officer would report to me the most important details in view of this

14     note that has to do with Skelani, and something that is quite outside of

15     the scope and responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade.  I didn't know about

16     this entry before.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             MR. HAYNES:

19        Q.   And where were you when this entry was written, and this call was

20     taken?

21        A.   This entry could have been made during the night sometime or

22     later, perhaps early in the morning, if you follow the sequence of

23     entries and the times that they were made.  At the time I was away, I was

24     in Celopek.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, we were discussing -- we were going back to

Page 31162

 1     discuss the question of prisoners, and what happened to them at the

 2     Zvornik Brigade, and so on and so forth.

 3             We'll recall yesterday that you told us about the requests you

 4     made for arrangements to be made for the prisoner that is you were taking

 5     that began on the 20th of July, and proceeded through to the 23rd of

 6     July.  Were you taking prisoners every day throughout that period of

 7     time?

 8        A.   I think that there were prisoners.  I'm not sure if this happened

 9     every day, but you can see that from the records and regular reports.

10     From what I can remember, I think that on the 21st of July, there were no

11     prisoners because fighting was going on at that time with the 2nd Corps

12     forces who were attacking from the front, so there was no sweeping of the

13     terrain.  I think that there were prisoners captured in the other days.

14        Q.   And when did prisoners begin to be transported out of the

15     brigade?

16        A.   Starting from the 23rd of July.

17        Q.   And where were they taken to?

18        A.   To Batkovic.

19        Q.   Now, within the brigade, what records were kept of the presence

20     of prisoners of war?

21        A.   We have the numbers here, the number of prisoners captured every

22     day, but during the transport and their handover to the Batkovic

23     collection centre, this had to be done according to a list, and I don't

24     know where these lists are anymore because each prisoner who was

25     transferred to Batkovic is recorded as such.

Page 31163

 1        Q.   Probably my fault, General Pandurevic; probably not a very good

 2     question.  But when prisoners arrived at the brigade, in what document

 3     was the number of prisoners noted?

 4        A.   Since the barracks duty operations officer was at the very

 5     entrance to the barracks, he would be the one to record the presence, the

 6     entry, the exit of all the persons, especially persons who did not belong

 7     to the brigade.  So he would record the number of prisoners of war who

 8     would be brought to the barracks in the course of the day.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. HAYNES:  And let's just have a look at some examples of that.

11     Can we have a look at P383, please.  This document is not translated, so

12     we are going have to look at page 16 firstly.

13        Q.   And we are going to need your help, General Pandurevic.  And I

14     wonder if you could -- I don't think we have the -- yes.  I wonder if you

15     could start reading the sentence which appears at the fifth bullet point

16     on that page and read it sufficiently slowly and clearly for the

17     interpreters to follow, would you, General Pandurevic, please.

18        A.   First of all I would like to say that this is an entry of the

19     barracks duty officer for the 22nd -- 23rd July of 1995.  And it contains

20     the usual information, and the sentence on which you insist states:

21                 "During the afternoon and the night, about 30 enemy soldiers

22     were brought to the barracks."

23             The duty officer was Zoran Begovic, he was a doctor head of the

24     medical section.

25             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  And can we now go to page 18 in the same

Page 31164

 1     document, the barracks duty officers' log-book.

 2        Q.   And this is the entry for the 24th and the 25th of July, I think

 3     we can all see that from the top.  And I'd like you to read the sentences

 4     beginning five lines from the bottom, and if you could again identify who

 5     the barracks duty officer was who made the entry?

 6        A.   Goran Bogdanovic was the duty officer, and it says:

 7                 "During the shift, 29 Muslim soldiers were captured and

 8     brought to the barracks by the military police of the eastern corps.  20

 9     Muslim soldiers were brought in."

10        Q.   Now, that of course is an internal record.  We've already seen

11     several daily combat reports, but was it the practice of the brigade to

12     report to corps command the existence of the number of prisoners on a

13     daily basis?

14        A.   Yes.  This would be contained in the regular combat reports.

15             MR. HAYNES:  Let's complete the picture there then, please.  Can

16     we have a look at P342.

17        Q.   This is the regular combat report for the 24th of July, and for

18     present purposes I'm only interested in the last sentence of paragraph 3

19     which reads:

20                 "Fourteen enemy soldiers have been captured today."

21             Was that, as it were, standard practice to include that

22     information?

23        A.   Yes, the number was entered that the operations officer knew of

24     by the time he sent the report.  Sometimes after the report was sent some

25     more were brought in.

Page 31165

 1        Q.   And was there any reason in July of 1995 in particular after the

 2     16th of July of 1995 that you thought you shouldn't be reporting that to

 3     corps command?

 4        A.   There was no reason for that.  My position was that every soldier

 5     who surrendered had to be sent to the prisoner of war collection centre

 6     and the corps command should be made aware of that.

 7        Q.   This might seem an obvious question given your answer to the last

 8     one, but did you see any reason why you shouldn't be taking prisoners of

 9     war during this period?

10        A.   We had to search the ground and everybody who was captured during

11     the search was brought to the barracks.  There was no reason to treat

12     soldiers contrary to the Geneva Conventions and regulations on the

13     application of the Laws of War.

14             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  We'll move on to P344, the daily combat

15     report for the 25th of July.

16        Q.   And again, it's the last sentence of paragraph 3 of that report:

17                 "Twenty-five enemy soldiers were captured.  All were duty

18     transferred to the Batkovici-Bijeljina collection centre."

19             Can you help us just by glancing at the second page of that

20     report as to which duty officer wrote that report?

21        A.   Could this be scrolled down just a little, I need to inspect the

22     initials on this page.  I believe that the initials that I see here are

23     MG, standing for Mihajlo Galic.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. HAYNES:  And lastly, P346, the daily combat report for the

Page 31166

 1     26th of July.

 2        Q.   And just to confound us, the information about prisoners is not

 3     in paragraph 3 of this report, but paragraph 2, it's the fourth bullet

 4     point:

 5             "The reconnaissance group of the 1st Birac Brigade combed the

 6     terrain in the area of Kozluk; 34 members of the BH Army were captured

 7     and sent to the prison in Batkovici."

 8             Again, if you can help us please by going to page 2 of this

 9     report and giving us the name, if you can, of the duty officer who wrote

10     that report?

11        A.   The initials are JP.  You would have to give me a minute to think

12     who that might be.

13        Q.   It's probably not that important, Mr. Pandurevic, but

14     certainly --

15        A.   If I were to look at the list of the brigade command, that would

16     jog my memory.  I can't remember.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

18             So the position throughout this period was the arrival of

19     prisoners was recorded in the barracks duty officers' notebook.  The

20     figures in the regular combat report seem to be rather more accurate,

21     does the duty officer then go and count them before he writes his report

22     to corps command?

23        A.   I don't believe that the duty officer went to count head.  He

24     probably obtained information from the barracks duty officer or from the

25     individuals who had brought the prisoners in.

Page 31167

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And -- but in any event a record is made in a daily

 2     combat report and is sent to corps command on a daily basis of the number

 3     of prisoners taken; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And from about the 20th of July, you began beseeching corps

 6     command to make arrangements for you to exchange all these prisoners you

 7     were taking; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes, that's right.

 9        Q.   Now, as you've already hinted at, their reception at the

10     collection centre at Batkovici is also recorded.

11             MR. HAYNES:  And we are going to have a look now to a document

12     that is not a Zvornik Brigade document.  It's 7D712, and I think this

13     document better not be broadcast because it contains names.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.  If there is any objection to the

15     blocking of the broadcast, please speak up.  Thank you.

16             MR. HAYNES:

17        Q.   Now, this is a document with a number of pages and flicking

18     through it on e-court will be time consuming, so I'm going to hand you a

19     hard copy with the assistance of Eva.  Thank you very much.

20             Now, you've told us that prisoners began to leave the Zvornik

21     Brigade on the 23rd of July.  I know you've been through this document.

22     How many prisoners were transferred from the Zvornik Brigade to Batkovici

23     between the 23rd and the 26th of July of 1995?

24        A.   There are several columns here in the list in addition to the

25     name, the family name, and the particulars of every individual.  There's

Page 31168

 1     also the date of their arrival in Batkovic collection centre, and as far

 2     as I can remember between 23rd and 26th of July, between 140 and 150

 3     prisoners of war were transferred there after having been captured by the

 4     Zvornik Brigade.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  I am just being informed, Mr. Haynes, and

 6     Mr. McCloskey and the rest, that this document actually was tendered by

 7     the Prosecution, and it is not confidential.

 8             MR. HAYNES:  Then, in that case it can be broadcast.  And for

 9     those who want to see it, it might be better that they have a look at

10     page 2 so they can see what General Pandurevic is referring to.  I had it

11     in my mind, I didn't check that there were some names on this that caused

12     it to be used under seal, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes.  Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think Mr. Thayer used it with Novica Simic --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- just to recall everyone.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I think we can proceed then, thank you.

18             MR. HAYNES:

19        Q.   And so far as you are aware those 140 or 150 prisoners, how were

20     they treated when they were at the Zvornik Brigade?

21        A.   My order was to treat them correctly, fairly.  We have been faced

22     with different statements here.  Some said that they were treated fairly,

23     the others said that the treatment was not fair.  I don't have a clear

24     insight.  I don't have a precise information as to how each of the

25     soldiers treated them in the woods when capturing them.  However, when

Page 31169

 1     they arrived in the barracks, they received fair treatment.

 2        Q.   And on average how long would a prisoner have remained at the

 3     Zvornik Brigade before being transferred to the collection centre at

 4     Batkovici?

 5        A.   I believe that the -- those who came first stayed the longest

 6     until the moment the operation to transfer them to Batkovici was

 7     launched, and then those who were captured during the day, as soon as

 8     there was a truck-load, they would be transported to Batkovic on the same

 9     day.

10        Q.   Now, against that background, I think I just ought to put to you

11     a couple of paragraphs of the indictment.

12             There were apparently 11 wounded prisoner who came from a

13     hospital in Milici at the command of the Zvornik Brigade at some stage.

14     What did you know about the existence of those persons?

15        A.   I learned about their existence when I returned from the IKM.  I

16     can't tell you exactly when that was, whether that was on the 18th or the

17     19th, because I don't remember.  However, as soon as I received the

18     information, as soon as I learned that there were such people there, I

19     was not really clear why the wounded had to be accommodated in the

20     infirmary of the Zvornik Brigade together with the soldiers of the

21     Zvornik Brigade who had been wounded, and I personally ordered Dragan

22     Obrenovic to inspect them and to look after their safety and that that

23     order should be conveyed to the medical personnel.  My order was to treat

24     the enemy wounded as any other wounded person would be treated.

25        Q.   And so far as you're aware, on what date did they leave the

Page 31170

 1     infirmary of the Zvornik Brigade?

 2        A.   I insisted with Colonel Cerovic that the wounded should also be

 3     transferred from the Zvornik Brigade.  At the morning briefing on the

 4     24th, Dragan Obrenovic reported that together with the other prisoners

 5     they were also transported to the Batkovic collection centre.

 6        Q.   Is that what you were talking to Mr. Cerovic about in the

 7     intercepted communication we looked at yesterday?

 8        A.   Yes, amongst other things.

 9        Q.   General Pandurevic, did you order or authorise the execution of

10     those wounded prisoners in the Zvornik Brigade infirmary?

11        A.   No, neither.

12        Q.   Did you order or authorise the execution of any prisoners who

13     were held in the barracks at the Zvornik Brigade during the latter part

14     of July of 1995?

15        A.   That would have been crazy on my part.  It would have been crazy

16     to capture somebody, to bring him to the barracks, and then execute him.

17     I never issued an order to that effect.  And as far as I know, nobody was

18     allowed or permitted to execute a prisoner of war.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, after the 15th of July, did you ever participate

20     in further combat operations towards Zepa?

21        A.   I did not participate in any operations.  However, I did spend

22     sometime in the Zepa area after the 15th.  That happened on two

23     occasions, if I remember it correctly.

24        Q.   Well, let's take them one by one.  After --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Haynes, since you are moving away from the

Page 31171

 1     topic, if I can raise the -- raise a point that I wanted to yesterday but

 2     I couldn't due to the time constraint.  Can I draw your attention to

 3     yesterday's page 31154.  You put the witness the question:

 4             "What sort of mood were you in when you had this discussion with

 5     Obrenovic?"

 6             And in the course of answering this question, Mr. Pandurevic

 7     said, I quote:

 8             "It was our conclusion to the effect that where is this leading

 9     us, what sort of a brain could have decided something like that."

10             And then he said:

11             "But according to the information that we had, we knew that the

12     order had come from General Mladic."

13             I'm interested to know what kind of information he had and how he

14     came to the conclusion that it had come from General Mladic.  I would

15     like the witness to expand on this, please.

16             MR. HAYNES:  I'm not going to interfere in that question.  He can

17     deal with it.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I think Mr. Pandurevic can answer the question

19     directly.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I received initial

21     information from Dragan Obrenovic and he had received that information on

22     the 14th in the evening when he was at the command of the Zvornik Brigade

23     and when he was sending that interim combat report.  And even earlier

24     than that, Nikolic had told him in a conversation that those prisoners

25     were being brought in pursuant to an order of the commander of the Main

Page 31172

 1     Staff.  I did not have any direct information.  The commander of the Main

 2     Staff never issued such an order to me.

 3             However, I assumed that no such thing could have been done or the

 4     transport of prisoners carried out from one territory to another

 5     territory with the engagement of the security organs and the security

 6     escorts without that.  I can have my doubts about the information that

 7     the order came from Mladic or not.  However, in light of the subsequent

 8     events and the fact that no measures were taken, I'm still convinced that

 9     the order did indeed come from him.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'll leave it there.  Thank you.

11             MR. HAYNES:

12        Q.   So after the 15th of July, when was the first time that you went

13     back to the Zepa area?

14        A.   I believe that I returned around the 27th of July.

15        Q.   Well, let's see if we can use something to refresh your memory.

16             MR. HAYNES:  Can we have a look, please, at 7D91.

17        Q.   Now, this is a form of document with which we are all very

18     familiar now.  This is a vehicle work log and it relates to a vehicle we

19     are pretty familiar with, the Nissan T-2175, the car in which you were

20     driven around.

21             MR. HAYNES:  Can we have a look at the fourth page of this

22     document, please.

23        Q.   And we see there on the 27th of July that the car is recorded as

24     going from Zvornik to Vlasenica.  Is that where its journey ended on the

25     27th of July?

Page 31173

 1             MR. HAYNES:  I'm told that the page in B/C/S is page 3, not page

 2     4 as it is in the English.  Apologise for that.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that was not the final

 4     destination on that day.  I proceeded to IKM Godjenje from Vlasenica, and

 5     there I met with General Krstic.

 6             MR. HAYNES:

 7        Q.   You told us that you had for some time wanted to speak to him

 8     face to face.  Why did you not go before the 27th of July?

 9        A.   Well, on the 23rd, it was certain that some elements of the

10     Zvornik Brigade that had previously been engaged in Zepa area would be

11     sent back, and that's why you see the note here for the 23rd of July,

12     Zvornik-Han Pijesak-Zepa.  This was noted by the driver because I thought

13     that I would indeed be going to Zepa on that.  However, everything was

14     put on hold.  We were informed to stand by and not to move, so we

15     remained on standby for several days.  I had several conversations with

16     Cerovic, Jevdjevic, and Krstic, I believe.  And finally I left without

17     any units on my own on the 27th of July.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Well, we'll just, as it were, have a look at a few

19     extraneous documents to illustrate what you say.

20             MR. HAYNES:  Can we have a look at 7D602, please.  A in the

21     English, B in B/C/S.  Thank you.  Yes, it's been pointed out to me that

22     this in fact is an exhibit under a different number.  It's P1194.

23        Q.   And this is an intercept from the 23rd of July between Zlatar

24     corps command and Palma and Zvornik Brigade.

25             "Give me Palma."

Page 31174

 1             "Sorry?"

 2             "Palma."

 3             "Just a moment."

 4             "Is that Palma?"

 5             "Give me 01."

 6             Who would 01 at Palma be?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure we are looking at that.

 8             MR. HAYNES:  We need A and B.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   The numeral 01, who would that refer to at Zlatar and who would

10     that refer to at Palma?

11        A.   Zlatar 1 was General Krstic, and Palma 1 would be me.

12             JUDGE KWON:  And Mr. Haynes, did you say that the date of this

13     intercept is 23rd of July?

14             MR. HAYNES:  I did.

15        Q.   And what can we deduce is going on from this intercepted

16     communication, General Pandurevic?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Our records indicate this intercept is the 16th.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, will you verify that, please, Mr. Haynes?

20             MR. HAYNES:  Well, we'll move on --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Because it's tied up to a previous question --

22             MR. HAYNES:  Yes.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- which specifically referred to the same day.

24             MR. HAYNES:  Yes, we'll move on.  We'll go to 7D604 which is

25     probably a --

Page 31175

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 2             MR. HAYNES:

 3        Q.   Now, this intercept is, I believe, the 25th of July, and it's

 4     between Cerovic, about whom we've heard a good deal in the last few days,

 5     and a general.  You were in contact with Cerovic during this period, did

 6     you receive any information or instruction from him as to what state of

 7     readiness you should be in in relation to any particular operation?

 8        A.   Yes, I was in contact with Cerovic, and it had to do with my

 9     return to the Zepa area.  And then from the 23rd on he was telling me

10     every day to be ready, to wait for the order that Krstic was supposed

11     today issue, and this is also what this conversation is about.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. HAYNES:  Can we go to P1353.  A in the English, and B in the

14     B/C/S.

15        Q.   And I'm going to hand you a hard copy, General Pandurevic,

16     because in the B/C/S it starts at the bottom of the first page and goes

17     over two more pages, so it will be easier for you to leaf through a hard

18     copy.  This is an intercept from 8.00 in the morning of the 26th of July.

19     It's a fairly long intercept.  Once you've got the text of it perhaps you

20     can tell us whether you recall speaking to Major Jevdevic on the morning

21     of the 26th of July and what you spoke about?

22        A.   Yes, I do remember this conversation.  I was asking about whether

23     I would be requested to return to Zepa.  I asked Jevdevic what the

24     situation was, and he told me that probably they were not going to ask me

25     to go back because he said the guns have been silent for the second day

Page 31176

 1     now, meaning that the fighting had stopped and that preparations were

 2     underway, or already the evacuation was underway in Zepa.  And he said

 3     that I was requested only where the guns were active, meaning only where

 4     there was combat.

 5             MR. HAYNES:  And just to complete that particular picture, can we

 6     see 7D609, please.

 7        Q.   Again an intercept from the 26th of July at 2320 in the evening.

 8     A conversation apparently between the duty operations officer at Palma

 9     and Zlatar, and you, but it begins curiously by:

10             "Vinko is not in at the moment.  Who wants to talk to him?

11             "Zlatar.

12             "Hello.  Just a moment, just a moment.

13             "Yes.

14             "Chief, how are you?

15             "Well, not bad.  I feel relieved just talking to you.  Listen.

16             "Yes, I'm listening.

17             "Uran 01 told me that you should be here, in, at this where we

18     were located previously.

19             "Please repeat.

20             "At 0800 in the morning."

21             Do you recall having a conversation in the late evening of the

22     26th of July with somebody from the corps command?

23        A.   I think that there is another part of this conversation.  If I

24     can look at it, please, so that I could have a complete picture.

25        Q.   By all means.

Page 31177

 1        A.   Yes, I do remember this conversation, and it demonstrates that I

 2     was supposed to report to the IKM where Krstic was the following day.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what was the principal purpose of your visit to

 4     General Krstic on the 27th of July?

 5        A.   The main reason was to talk to him about my interim combat

 6     reports of the 15th, 16th, and the 18th.  And the second reason was that

 7     I think that by that time already an order had arrived to send a unit

 8     from the Drina Corps to the 2nd Krajina Corps and that the Zvornik

 9     Brigade was obliged to allocate forces for that purpose, the equivalent

10     of a battalion, so this was another thing that I wanted to speak to him

11     about.

12        Q.   Did you go there alone?

13        A.   Yes, I went with a driver.  Probably somebody was also escorting

14     me and myself.

15        Q.   And where precisely did you go to?

16        A.   I remember that I met Krstic at the forward command post in the

17     village of Godjenje, and that in the course of the day I stopped off in

18     Vlasenica to see Zvonko Bajagic [Realtime transcript read in error

19     "Blagojevic"].  I don't know whether this was before I saw Krstic or

20     afterwards.  I'm not sure about that.  I can't remember.

21        Q.   Well, we can have a look at the another document.  You've got the

22     duty officers' notebook, if you go to page 885 where you are, and we look

23     at page 187 in e-court.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, just to clear up, he went to see a

Page 31178

 1     person named Bajagic not Blagojevic.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is that correct, Mr. Pandurevic?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 4             MR. HAYNES:

 5        Q.   This is the first page of the duty operations officers' notebook

 6     for the 27th of July, and we see three lines up from the bottom

 7     "Commander Bajagic in Vlasenica," is that the name as it should be

 8     recorded in the transcript, B-a-j-a-g-i-c?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you recall what time you got to Godjenje?

11        A.   I think it was early in the morning that I left the command.  How

12     early, I'm not sure.  But by noon I had probably finished my conversation

13     with General Krstic.

14        Q.   Was anybody else at the forward command post on the 27th of July?

15        A.   As far as I can remember, there was a tent there.  The commander

16     of the headquarters administration of the Drina Corps, I think his name

17     was Amovic was there.  And then Jevdjevic who was chief of the

18     communications, some communications operators, maybe messengers, General

19     Krstic's driver.  I don't know any of their names.

20        Q.   Did you and Krstic talk alone?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Was that within the tent or did you go somewhere else?

23        A.   It was a nice day from what I can remember.  There was some sort

24     of fence in front of the tent, perhaps we were standing next to that

25     fence and we were talking.  I think that's where it was.  First, General

Page 31179

 1     Krstic asked me about the situation in the Zvornik Brigade, about the

 2     situation in the area of defence, and then I addressed him.

 3        Q.   What did you say?

 4        A.   I told him, Probably you received my interim combat reports,

 5     which I sent you, and in which I mentioned what I mention in them.  And I

 6     asked him if he had any more specific and broader information than the

 7     one I stated in the combat reports relating to the prisoners of war who

 8     were executed in the Zvornik area.

 9        Q.   And what did he say?

10        A.   He said something to the effect that, Hey Vinko, I know something

11     that shouldn't have happened happened.  I don't even know myself how it

12     all started but I do know what happened, and I know who was included in

13     that and who did that, but this is something that should not be your

14     concern.  I am going to deal with this problem in the appropriate way.

15             I para-phrased what he told me then.

16        Q.   How long did you talk about this for?

17        A.   It wasn't a long conversation.  Maybe we talked for ten or 15

18     minutes.

19        Q.   Did you discuss your orders in relation to Krajina?

20        A.   Since the situation was critical in the western part of Republika

21     Srpska in the 2nd Krajina Corps section, he said that he knew what the

22     situation was in the Zvornik Brigade in terms of its effort and the

23     stretching of the men in the fighting, but that I had to find a solution

24     and allocate the forces that were being requested of me and send them to

25     the sector of the Krajina Corps.

Page 31180

 1        Q.   And was that part of the conversation by the fence, or did that

 2     discussion take part somewhere else?

 3        A.   Both the conversations took place at the same location.

 4        Q.   And can you help us now as to which came first.  Did you start

 5     talking about your interim combat reports, or did you start talking about

 6     your orders to go to the Krajina?

 7        A.   Since General Krstic first asked me about the situation in the

 8     area of the brigade and the situation in the brigade, I then touched upon

 9     my interim combat reports and then this Krajina topic was the last one in

10     the sequence.

11        Q.   What was going on in the Zepa area on the 27th of July?

12        A.   I'm sure that there were no combat actions.  I think that the

13     evacuation of the civilian population was underway, but I didn't have

14     specific information about the manner in which this was being done.

15        Q.   Did any unit of the Zvornik Brigade return to Zepa after the 15th

16     of July?

17        A.   On the 27th of July after my conversation with General Krstic, it

18     seemed as if no units would be required to go from the Zvornik Brigade,

19     but as far as I can remember later a number of the Podrinje Detachment of

20     the special forces left to the Zepa broader sector.  I think this was on

21     the 31st.

22        Q.   And do you know how long they stayed there?

23        A.   I think that a number of them returned the following day, that a

24     number stayed for another two days because then on the 3rd of August the

25     order was received to form another Drina Brigade that would be sent to

Page 31181

 1     the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps so that the engagement of those forces

 2     of the Podrinje Detachment in the Zepa area was not required.  They went,

 3     just stayed there for a short period of time, and then returned.

 4             MR. HAYNES:  All right.  Well, I just want to sweep up a couple

 5     of documents before the break.  Can we have a look at P379.  This is the

 6     later duty operations officers' log-book.  It's an entry for the 2nd of

 7     August.  And for present purposes, we'll just look at it in e-court,

 8     General Pandurevic.  That's page 19 in both languages.

 9        Q.   This is the 2nd of August, and I'm interested in you helping us

10     with what the entry at 2046 refers to.

11        A.   Legenda checked in after coming back from Zepa, and that one of

12     his platoons remained up there.  This means that the commander of the

13     Podrinje Detachment, Milan Jolovic, came back from Zepa at this time and

14     that he informed the duty officer that a platoon of his unit stayed in

15     the Zepa area.

16        Q.   And how long did it stay after Legenda got back?

17        A.   I believe that the platoon came back the following day because

18     the entire Podrinje Detachment became part of the 2nd Drina Brigade

19     headed by me, and we went to the area of the Krajina Corps.  The order on

20     its establishment was issued on the 3rd of August.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. HAYNES:  And just to conclude this period, P349.  Daily

23     combat report for the 27th of July.

24        Q.   And it's the third bullet point under paragraph 2 I'm interested

25     in where it says:

Page 31182

 1                 "A unit is being prepared, as ordered by the KDK Drina Corps

 2     command.  Order strictly confidential number 33/95 dated the 26th of

 3     July, 1995.

 4             "In order for it to be able to set out on its assignment, the

 5     unit needs to be supplied with:"

 6             And fuel and ammunition is thereafter listed.

 7             What order does that refer to and what unit?

 8        A.   This is an order of the Drina Corps command to send a brigade to

 9     the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  The Zvornik Brigade was supposed to

10     provide one battalion, and I actually discussed this with General Krstic

11     when we met on the 27th.  As far as I can remember, the commander of that

12     battalion was Ljubo Bojanovic, because I also met them later at one time

13     in the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

14             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  And if that's convenient, we'll take a

15     break.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have a break now of 25 minutes duration.

17     Thank you.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

21             MR. HAYNES:  General Pandurevic, forgive me, we are going to

22     retrace our steps a little bit.  Not because it helps the narrative, but

23     really just because I don't like people to think I've made a mistake.  I

24     did mean to call into e-court 7D602, and it does have a P number.  It was

25     the P number I was erroneously informed of.  The P number is the P1314 A

Page 31183

 1     in the English and B in the B/C/S.  So if we could have that put into

 2     e-court, please.

 3        Q.   And this now is an intercept of the 23rd of July timed at about

 4     1132 in the morning.  Apparently between General Krstic and Colonel

 5     Cerovic, and really it's the bottom portion of it that we are concerned

 6     with where General Krstic apparently says to Cerovic:

 7             "Go on, call Vinko.

 8             "Yes.

 9             "And if it's possible, he should personally come here to see me.

10             "Yes, sir.

11             "If it's possible, if the situation permits.

12             "Okay.

13             "Not tomorrow, but today.

14             "Okay.

15             "Good-bye."

16             Did you receive a message on the 23rd of July that General Krstic

17     wanted to see you?

18        A.   I most probably did and here he kind of made it conditional if

19     possible that I should go and see him on that day.  I didn't come across

20     any conversation with me discussing this topic with Cerovic, but probably

21     there was a conversation between Cerovic and myself, and that that day I

22     didn't go.  The briefing was held at the brigade command that day, and

23     that day was the day that I signed the regular combat report, meaning

24     that I was there that whole day.

25             MR. HAYNES:  Let's just have a look at P341 again, please.  And

Page 31184

 1     we need to look at the bottom of the document in Serbian.  The next page.

 2        Q.   This is a document that's not actually type signed, it's got a

 3     signature on it.  Whose signature is that?

 4        A.   This is my signature.  My initials.

 5             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  And just to complete the history, can we

 6     have a look, please, at 7D607.

 7        Q.   Again, Colonel Cerovic and General Krstic at 25 past 5.00 in the

 8     afternoon of the 26th of July:

 9             "Did you call Vinko?"

10             "Excuse me?"

11             "Did you call ...  ?"

12             "Yes."

13             "You did."

14             "Milenko says he will be up there at 0800 in the morning."

15             This appears to follow on from the other intercept -- intercept

16     we've looked at between you and Jevdjevic.  Did you tell Jevdjevic that

17     you would attend General Krstic at 8.00 on the 27th of July?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Very well.  We'll leave that behind us now finally.

20             MR. HAYNES:  Can we now have in e-court, please, 7D729.

21        Q.   This is another marching order, and you've explained to us what

22     the effect of such a document is.  What unit did you give a marching

23     order to on the 28th of July?

24        A.   As you can see from the document, pursuant to an order of the

25     Drina Corps of the 26th of July, the Zvornik Brigade formed from among

Page 31185

 1     its ranks one light infantry battalion which became part of the Drina

 2     Brigade force, and this is an order for the battalion to march.  The

 3     battalion that was going to become a part of the Drina Brigade of the

 4     Drina Corps.  And it was written on the 26th of July, and it was being

 5     sent to the sector of operation of the Drina Corps.

 6        Q.   And is this the marching order that relates to the unit you told

 7     us about before the break commanded by Ljubo Bojanovic?

 8        A.   I can see at the beginning that the commander of the first

 9     echelon was Captain Maric.  As far as I can recall Ljubo Bojanovic was

10     the commander of the battalion because I met him at a facility at Crni

11     Vrh in the Glamoc sector.  Perhaps his name is also mentioned here, but I

12     don't see the entire document.

13             MR. HAYNES:  Well, we'll move on from that, please, to P351.

14        Q.   On the 28th of July, you felt the need to send an interim combat

15     report.  Why?

16        A.   We were informing the corps command that we had acted pursuant to

17     their order, that we had executed the order, and we cited the MTS and the

18     number of people involved.

19        Q.   And we see that was 220.  Is that the number of soldiers that you

20     dispatched?

21        A.   That's what is says here.  Probably that was the number, yes.

22             MR. HAYNES:  And just one more piece in the jigsaw before we pull

23     this all together.  P124, please.

24        Q.   This is a Drina Corps order preparing units of the corps for full

25     combat readiness, described as very urgent.  What is this document about

Page 31186

 1     and what situation militarily does it reflect?

 2        A.   Here the commander of the Drina Corps issues an order based on

 3     the order of the Main Staff on raising the level of combat morale, or, as

 4     it says here, literally putting corps units into full combat readiness.

 5     Now, this full combat readiness implies the immediate readiness of the

 6     units for the combat operations.  In the last paragraph this is

 7     corroborated by the fact that the president of the republic also

 8     proclaimed a state of war in Republika Srpska.  That mere fact made the

 9     situation serious.

10        Q.   What was going on at this time that created such a serious

11     situation?

12        A.   The situation was critical in the western part of Republika

13     Srpska at that moment.  That situation had been caused by the attacks of

14     the Croatian army against Republika Srpska Krajina during Operation

15     Storm.  Those attacks and the negative effects on the Army of Republika

16     Srpska Krajina spilled over to Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   What were you doing from the 29th of July onwards?

18        A.   I acted in keeping with the order that we have on the screen at

19     the moment.

20        Q.   And what did that mean you were engaged in day-to-day?

21        A.   I was supposed to tour the battalions and inspect them.  I was

22     supposed to issue very clear tasks to the battalion commanders.  And this

23     meant that new forces would be necessary from the Drina Corps to be

24     dispatched into the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 31187

 1             MR. HAYNES:  Can we now go to 7D615, please.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   This is an order of the Drina Corps dated the 3rd of August

 3     pursuant to an order of the Main Staff forming a brigade of which you

 4     were the commander.  When did you first learn that you were to be the

 5     commander of a brigade to go to the Krajina?

 6        A.   I can't tell you exactly whether the meeting took place on the

 7     3rd of August at the corps command or maybe it was on the 2nd.  In any

 8     case, it referred to the obligations of the brigades of the Drina Corps

 9     to allocate men and form the 2nd Drina Brigade to be sent into the zone

10     of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  But I remember that

11     initially Lieutenant-Colonel Radomir Furtula was appointed as its

12     commander, he had been commander of the 5th Podrinje Brigade.

13             However, when I arrived as the commander of the Zvornik Brigade,

14     I got a telephone call from Krstic who told me that Furtula had become

15     ill all of a sudden and that I would have to serve as the brigade

16     commander.  Obviously I accepted the order and that's why it says in this

17     order that was to be appointed the brigade commander.

18        Q.   And when did this order take effect?

19        A.   It took effect on the day when it was issued, and it implied

20     launching all the activities with a view to establishing a brigade.  As

21     you can see, this brigade was formed from the elements of all the

22     brigades of the Drina Corps and such units are most difficult for command

23     because they are very different, men are of different providences, of

24     different opinions and views, with different equipment and armament.

25     Such units are very difficult to use in combat and very difficult to

Page 31188

 1     control and command.

 2        Q.   I just want to direct your attention to a couple of paragraphs of

 3     this order.  Can you have a look, please, at paragraph 1 sub-paragraph

 4     (b).  What does it mean "headquarters administration staff to be provided

 5     by the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade"?

 6        A.   Every brigade has headquarters administration.  This is a small

 7     unit that serves the command, and the command of the Zvornik Brigade,

 8     i.e., the Zvornik Brigade was supposed to establish the headquarters

 9     administration for the new brigade and was also supposed to establish a

10     250-men strong battalion.

11        Q.   What did you do between the 3rd and 7th of August of 1995?

12        A.   Immediately after having received this order, I was duty-bound to

13     proceed accordingly.  I was in constant communication with all the other

14     brigade commanders from the Drina Corps with a view to efficiently gather

15     all the men, materiel, technical equipment, and to establish first the

16     command and finally the entire brigade.  In that sense, I started issuing

17     my first orders to that brigade.

18        Q.   Where did you work from?

19        A.   From my office from which I had commanded the Zvornik Brigade

20     previously which means that I didn't move.  My office did not move.  I

21     assumed my new duty, but I retained the same office and Dragan Obrenovic

22     took over from me, and he was in command of the Zvornik Brigade.  He

23     performed his duties from his own office.

24        Q.   From the moment of this order, what function did you have within

25     the Zvornik Brigade?

Page 31189

 1        A.   I was no longer the commander of the Zvornik Brigade.  It was

 2     never officially confirmed.  I did not receive any orders to that effect

 3     in writing, but the fact I was no longer the commander of the Zvornik

 4     Brigade.

 5             MR. HAYNES:  And just before we pass from this document, can we

 6     have a look at the last paragraph of it, which is page 2 I think in both

 7     documents?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see the document.

 9             MR. HAYNES:

10        Q.   I'm interested in paragraph 10:

11             "All other matters which are not regulated by this order, shall

12     be regulated by the commander of the newly-formed brigade."

13             What does that mean?

14        A.   That means that I have to make sure that all the other issues

15     that regard the establishment of the brigade and its preparation for use

16     are to be regulated by myself.

17             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  Can we now move on to 7D611, please.

18        Q.   This is an order of yours dated the 3rd of August.  Can you tell

19     us what effect this order had or what its purpose was?

20        A.   I issued this order pursuant to the last paragraph of the

21     previous order of the corps commander, and I sent it to the commands of

22     all the corps brigades.  It was not for me to order the commanders of the

23     other brigades.  I just insisted on the implementation of all the things

24     that the corps commander wanted to do and institute all the other

25     elements that would enable the brigade to carry out the tasks given to it

Page 31190

 1     by the corps command.

 2        Q.   We see at the foot of the document, which might be quite

 3     difficult for you to read in the original, three time stamps:  1215,

 4     1330, and 1750.  Do you recall what time of day you issued this document?

 5        A.   The stamp is not legible and it's very difficult for me to detect

 6     the initial time.  But it is possible that it was 1750 when the document

 7     was drafted and sent for encryption.  The next time is 1730, that's when

 8     it was processed by the encryptor, and last time, 1750, is the time when

 9     the document arrived at the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade most probably.

10        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, at the time that you were ordered to

11     command this brigade, was there any anticipated period that you would be

12     in command of that brigade?

13        A.   I became the commander of the brigade on the 3rd of August, 1995,

14     as you can see in General Krstic's order.  And on that same day, as you

15     can see, I was in full command of that brigade which was still under

16     establishment.

17        Q.   But how long did you think you would hold that position?

18        A.   Based on previous practice, one would expect not to stay in such

19     a position long.  Up to 15 days at the most.  However, later on it turned

20     out that the brigade had spent over a month in the area of responsibility

21     of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

22        Q.   Now, we looked at various military documents at the beginning of

23     your testimony, but if Dragan Obrenovic became acting commander of the

24     brigade from the 3rd of August, was there any automatic ascension to the

25     role of Chief of Staff from within the ranks of the other officers?

Page 31191

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  Could we first establish who, if

 3     anyone, became acting commander of the brigade before we ask questions

 4     about it.

 5             MR. HAYNES:  I think we already have, haven't we?  He has given

 6     volumes of evidence about that.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.  I think we can proceed.

 8             Judge Kwon?

 9             MR. HAYNES:  I'll phrase the question another way.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  But I think we can safely proceed in

11     any case, but if you can phrase it in another way, maybe that's better.

12             MR. HAYNES:  Yes.

13        Q.   Did the brigade formation provide for somebody automatically to

14     become Chief of Staff if the Chief of Staff was no longer fulfilling that

15     function?

16        A.   I'll start with the principle of the singleness of command and

17     unity of command.  At the moment when I was appointed a commander of the

18     2nd Drina Brigade of the Drina Corps, somebody automatically had to take

19     over the command of the Zvornik Brigade.  By establishment and pursuant

20     this had already been regulated.  The Chief of Staff as the deputy

21     commander was the one who would assume that position, and Obrenovic was

22     that person.

23             It was possible for appointing a new person that would be

24     chair -- acting as Chief of Staff, but it was not mandatory.  In this

25     particular situation, as far as I can remember, and I'm sure that General

Page 31192

 1     Krstic had more information about the situation in the area of

 2     responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps and how long I would be required

 3     to stay there, and he decided to issue a new order after a few days.  And

 4     by that new order, he appointed Dragan Obrenovic as the acting commander

 5     of the Zvornik Brigade.

 6             I believe that he also put in that order that Milos Maksimovic

 7     would be acting as the Chief of Staff of the Zvornik Brigade.  This means

 8     that General Krstic at that time, unlike General Zivanovic, honoured the

 9     legal procedure, he complied with it and provided Obrenovic with all the

10     necessary papers that would entitle him to all the benefits when he acted

11     as commander.

12        Q.   Well, thank you for that, but I think we need to look with a

13     little care at that document.

14             MR. HAYNES:  And so we'll put into e-court please 5D452.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Haynes, this document is under seal I'm

16     informed.

17             MR. HAYNES:  If it is, I'm very sorry for not spotting that.  I

18     can't imagine why it is, but ...

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know.  I haven't got a clue, but it is.

20     Let's not broadcast it.

21             MR. HAYNES:  Okay.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I mean, we have to be cautious.

23             MR. HAYNES:

24        Q.   This is the order you're referring to.  And firstly, can we note

25     the date of it, it's the 8th of August, so five days after you became

Page 31193

 1     commander of the Drina Brigade.  And it reads:

 2             "Order as acting for the war time establishment of Chief of

 3     Staff, at the same time deputy commander of the 1st Zvornik Infantry

 4     Brigade, Milos Maksimovic, son of Cedo, artillery captain first class,

 5     born on the 17th of January 1963.  Currently chief of artillery in the

 6     organ for the combat arms of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade of the

 7     Drina Corps.  The duty pursuant to this order is to be taken over on the

 8     8th August 1995 until the return on duty of the formation chief of

 9     brigade staff and will not be longer than six months.  While acting as

10     above, he will not carry out his formation duty and the brigade command

11     will issue an order which will determine who will take on the duty of the

12     above named."

13             Then underneath it says:

14             "Statement of reasons."

15             What's the effect of this order?

16        A.   General Krstic issued this order pursuant to the Law on the

17     Military.  Dragan Obrenovic could not perform the duties of the Chief of

18     Staff since he had been appointed as acting commander.  That's why

19     General Krstic decided to appoint Milos Maksimovic as acting Chief of

20     Staff.

21             Since we are talking about an establishment position that is

22     usually taken by a lieutenant-colonel or colonel, Obrenovic cannot

23     regulate who would assume the position of the Chief of Staff.  It has to

24     be the corps command to do that.  The brigade commander either acting as

25     or formerly the brigade commander can regulate by an order the

Page 31194

 1     appointment of officers to the positions occupied by majors or

 2     lieutenant-colonels.

 3             MR. HAYNES:  Very well.  Let's move on to another document now,

 4     please.  7D462.

 5        Q.   We have looked at this order together before, but just remind us

 6     what this is and what you say the effect of it is?

 7        A.   As you can see, General Zivanovic corps commander is referring to

 8     paragraph 4(c) of the order issued by the minister of defence of

 9     Republika Srpska about the partisan authorities of officers.  This order

10     says the corps commander has the right and is authorised to appoint

11     officers to establishment posts occupied by lieutenant-colonels or

12     colonels, and here he appoints Dragan Obrenovic as Chief of Staff and at

13     the same time deputy commander.

14        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  I just want to look with you now at the

15     situation between the 3rd and the 7th of August when, as you've told us,

16     you were sitting in the office of the commander of the Zvornik Brigade

17     commanding the Drina Brigade.

18             MR. HAYNES:  And can we start, please, by looking at P360, the

19     regular combat report for the 4th of August.

20        Q.   And you might like just to read through the first page and then

21     we'll go to the second page of this document.

22        A.   I've read it.

23        Q.   Then with -- thank you.  And just read those few lines.  Whose

24     signature is that on that document?

25        A.   Dragan Obrenovic's.

Page 31195

 1        Q.   Were you in your office at the Zvornik Brigade at about 5.00 on

 2     the afternoon of the 4th of August?

 3        A.   Yes, all the time I was there as the commander of the 2nd

 4     Brigade.

 5        Q.   And did you have any contribution to the writing of this report?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. HAYNES:  Can we move on to P361, please.

 8        Q.   This is the regular combat report of the following day, the 5th

 9     of August.  Again, if you'd just care to read through the first page and

10     let us know when you are done and we can move forward one page.

11        A.   Go on, please.

12        Q.   And again we could probably see for ourselves whose signature it

13     is, but do you recognise it?

14        A.   Dragan Obrenovic's.

15        Q.   Were you there and available to sign this document?

16        A.   I was probably in my office or around minding my own business.

17     If I was duty-bound to sign this, I would have, I suppose.

18        Q.   We probably all noticed that in the previous document, P360, the

19     little two letters "ZA," "za," had been put in front of the commander,

20     meaning for the commander.  On this document it's not been put in.  Is

21     there any significance in that one way or the other?

22        A.   No, none in my view.

23             MR. HAYNES:  Let's look at, please, P2839 [Realtime transcript

24     read in error "P3829"].  And thankfully this is a one-page document so we

25     can deal with it a bit quicker.  I'm sorry, it's come up wrong in the

Page 31196

 1     transcript.  2839.

 2        Q.   Again, just confirm to us that you can recognise this signature?

 3        A.   Yes, at the very beginning I recognise Dragan Obrenovic's

 4     signature.

 5        Q.   What were you doing on the 2nd of August?

 6        A.   I was marching with my brigade from Zvornik to Bijeljina and

 7     onwards to Banja Luka.

 8        Q.   Any significance in the fact we've got yet a third variation in

 9     the way that it's signed this time, standing in for the commander Major

10     Dragan Obrenovic?

11        A.   In terms of responsibility and powers, no.  In terms of status

12     issues and the status of Dragan Obrenovic, yes.

13             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Haynes, if I could just interrupt you for a

14     moment.  I think on line 22, page 39 [sic].  That should be the 6th of

15     August.  It wouldn't make sense otherwise.

16             MR. HAYNES:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Judge Prost.

17        Q.   Now, when did you leave to the Krajina with the Drinski Brigade?

18        A.   I believe that I left on the 7th of August.

19        Q.   What was your point of departure?

20        A.   The column was formed in Kozluk north of Zvornik some 12 to 15

21     kilometres away from Zvornik.  That was our departure point.

22        Q.   I'm just interested because I think in answer to my question a

23     little earlier about what you were doing on the 6th of August, you said

24     you were marching.  Where were you marching on the 6th of August, if

25     indeed you were?

Page 31197

 1        A.   I believe that you asked me about the 8th of August and I was

 2     marching on that day, on the 8th.

 3        Q.   So where were you on the 6th?

 4        A.   On the 6th I was in Zvornik.

 5             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you, Judge Prost.

 6        Q.   What did you experience on your march from Kozluk?

 7        A.   It was the hardest march any unit under my command ever took.  On

 8     the one hand the column was very long and composed of various combat and

 9     non-combat vehicles in different sorts and states of repair, and the

10     roads were overcrowded by a huge long column of refugees from the

11     Republika Srpska Krajina.  It's head in Bijeljina, that's where I first

12     came across all these people, and they continued blocking our marching

13     route throughout our march.

14        Q.   How long did it take you to get to Krajina?

15        A.   I believe that it took us the whole day on the 7th and then on

16     the 8th, and on the 9th early in the morning, I arrived at the forward

17     command post of the Main Staff and the 2nd Krajina Corps which was on

18     Ostrezj pass midway between Petrovac and Drvar.

19        Q.   And what orders did you receive when you got there?

20        A.   I met with Generals Mladic and Milovanovic there.  I told them

21     about the unit that I was leading and very soon thereafter I was issued a

22     written order by General Milovanovic specifying certain axis of the use

23     of the brigade from Drvar across Grahovo field and further on in the

24     direction of Grahovo.

25        Q.   And when did you receive that task or those orders?

Page 31198

 1        A.   I think that this was sometime in the morning at dawn.

 2        Q.   On what date?

 3        A.   The 9th, I think.

 4        Q.   And when did you act upon those orders?

 5        A.   I went back then and I was at the head of the column and I

 6     organised the subdivision of the combat disposition of the brigade and

 7     the launching of combat.  We passed Drvar, we came to the edge of

 8     Grahovsko Polje and the same day we actually joined combat.

 9        Q.   How long did that combat last?

10        A.   The intense fighting lasted for two days and one night, and

11     together with some other forces of the 2nd Krajina Corps we managed to

12     stop the Croatian army from breaking through and to push them back to

13     Grahovo.  Later the front did not move more or less, the line of the

14     front.  And individual fighting was going on for the next 20 days or so,

15     but sometime in late August, the fighting intensified.

16        Q.   What was the state of the unit you commanded?

17        A.   It's very difficult to evaluate the state of the unit because

18     each battalion presented a separate problem.  The unit of the Podrinje

19     Detachment of the special forces was the most compact and parts of the

20     units of the 2nd Romanija Brigade.  The rest of the units were quite

21     problematic, and an entire company from the Birac Brigade from Sekovici

22     deserted after some ten days of combat and they returned to Sekovici.

23        Q.   What was the calibre of the forces you were facing?

24        A.   These were extremely strong forces of the guards brigade of the

25     Croatian army supported by artillery and the air force.  The artillery

Page 31199

 1     was active almost continuously.

 2        Q.   What happened at the end of August when combat intensified?

 3        A.   From the end of August until mid-September, the gradual

 4     withdrawal of the forces of the 2nd Krajina Corps began, including the

 5     brigade that I commanded.  And then later the withdrawal of the 2nd

 6     Krajina Corps took place all the way to the town of Kljuc, and this

 7     proceeded in a disorganised manner so that Petrovac was captured by the

 8     Croatian army.

 9        Q.   Did you suffer losses in your unit?

10        A.   Yes, there were losses, and they were recorded separately for

11     each battalion in view of the fact that the battalions were from

12     different brigades.  This was the stage of the war, or the year when it

13     was decided to bring the war to an end, so all the warring parties were

14     out to get the biggest possible piece of pie, or rather, to capture as

15     much territory as they could.

16        Q.   I just want to look briefly with you at two records of your

17     period in the Krajina.

18             MR. HAYNES:  Can we look first, please, at 7D439.

19        Q.   Firstly, tell us what this document is, General Pandurevic, would

20     you?

21        A.   This is a document that I drafted together with Mijo Dragutinovic

22     who was an operations officer in this brigade.  I think this is a

23     document of some 15 to 16 pages where we presented the entire engagement

24     of the 2nd Drina Brigade in detail and completely.  We talked about the

25     positive and the negative sides and experiences.  We made certain

Page 31200

 1     proposals to overcome these problems, and the worst thing is that in 1995

 2     we were faced with similar control and command problems as those in 1993.

 3        Q.   It's quite a chronological document.  So I just want to pick

 4     through it quickly with you.

 5             MR. HAYNES:  Can we go, please, to page 8 in the English, which

 6     is page 6 in the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   And here you're referring two-thirds of the way down the page in

 8     English, but in the top quarter of the page in B/C/S to a withdrawal from

 9     Grahovsko Polje on the 16th of August.  What was the significance of that

10     event?

11        A.   This was an important event.  There was an irregular and

12     disorganised pullout of parts of the brigade, and at that point in time I

13     happened to be at a very high mountain range over 1500 metres altitude

14     with a battalion -- with one battalion, and to the left wing the attack

15     by Croatian forces began and there was a disorganised withdrawal of one

16     battalion so that we were practically cut off, and we managed to pull out

17     at the last moment.  But one company stayed behind in the enemy

18     disposition and in the course of the night, they managed to withdraw

19     without losses.

20             Major Dragutinovic was with that company that was left behind.

21             MR. HAYNES:  Can we go over one page in the English, please, to

22     page 9, but keep the same page in B/C/S.

23        Q.   There you deal in the first large paragraph in the English page

24     9, but in the second half of the page in the B/C/S version with events

25     between the 16th and 19th of August and going ton the 22nd of August.

Page 31201

 1     Again, briefly just explain to us how events developed during that

 2     period?

 3        A.   These are events relating to the pullout of the brigade and its

 4     reaching new defence positions.  We occupied quite strong facilities

 5     above the town of Drvar itself.  In view of the bad morale among the

 6     fighters, I decided to issue orders for a decisive defence.  I did this

 7     so that each platoon, company, and battalion commander personally signed

 8     receipt of the order and that the order would be executed at any cost.

 9             This made it possible for us to resist the further advance of the

10     Croatian army in that area which was very important to us.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. HAYNES:  Could we now go to page 10 in the English, page 7 in

13     the B/C/S.

14        Q.   And just using your report to refresh your memory, can you tell

15     us briefly about the events of the 9th of September recorded at the

16     bottom paragraph of the English and about halfway down the page in B/C/S?

17        A.   I do remember these morning combat actions at this facility

18     called Ploce.  It's a path between Grahovsko Polje and Drvar.  I

19     personally and a number of senior officials from the brigade command took

20     part in the fighting to prevent the Croatian forces from advancing in the

21     area of Grahovo Polje and Drvar.

22             MR. HAYNES:  And can we now go please to page 11 in the English

23     and page 8 in the B/C/S.

24        Q.   And again refreshing your memory if you need to from your report

25     of 1995, tell us about events between the 10th and the 16th of September

Page 31202

 1     as they are recorded there.

 2        A.   In the period from the 13th to the 15th we had already pulled

 3     back closer to Kljuc and Sanski Most so that the village of Ramici in the

 4     15th -- on the 15th of September another Drina Corps Brigade came to

 5     relieve my brigade.  And on the 15th in the evening in the late evening

 6     hours, marched from Sanski Most towards Zvornik.

 7        Q.   And on the 16th?

 8        A.   On the 16th the forward part and the bulk of the brigade forces

 9     came to Zvornik, and then on the 16th the rear of the brigade and the

10     rest arrived.

11        Q.   Which bit were you in?

12        A.   I was at the head of the column.

13        Q.   What time did you get back to Zvornik on the 16th?

14        A.   Around noon.

15        Q.   Now, can we leave that to one side for just a moment.  Apart from

16     Orahovac which you've told us you drove past on the 17th and 18th of

17     July, did you know where any other bodies in the Zvornik area were

18     buried?

19        A.   I knew roughly the locations, but not specifically what these

20     places were, and I'd never gone there either.

21        Q.   Did you know how many people had been killed even approximately?

22        A.   I knew that it was a large number, but I didn't know exactly what

23     the number was.

24        Q.   While you were in combat in the Krajina, who was your superior

25     commander?

Page 31203

 1        A.   I was in the 2nd Krajina Corps in the operations group 1 to be

 2     precise, commanded by Colonel Kukobat Dusan, and he was my immediate

 3     superior.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the unit that this

 5     person was in command of.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, will you attend to that, Mr. Haynes, please.

 7             MR. HAYNES:

 8        Q.   Yes, the interpreter missed the unit which you were in command

 9     of, could you repeat it, please, General Pandurevic?

10        A.   I was in the operations group 1 of the 2nd Krajina Corps under

11     the command of Colonel Kukobat Dusan who was my former platoon commander

12     from the military academy.

13        Q.   Between the 7th of August and the 16th of September, did you make

14     contact with the command of the Zvornik Brigade at all?

15        A.   I remember that the phone lines were working in Drvar for a

16     period of time, and I did call in several times in order to report if

17     there were any losses, what the situation was among the men so that the

18     families of the fighters would have the information because they were

19     very concerned, and there were rumours circulating about all the

20     different events in Krajina.

21        Q.   Well, let's have a look at one such example.

22             MR. HAYNES:  Can we have P379 into e-court.  It's page 31 in both

23     languages.

24        Q.   It's the very bottom of the page, and this is the 8th of August

25     so pretty much the day of your arrival.  Is that the sort of message you

Page 31204

 1     had in mind that you phoned through?

 2        A.   Yes, these are the messages that I'm talking about, yes.

 3        Q.   And about how many times do you think you did that?

 4        A.   I don't know exactly.  I called in perhaps a couple more times.

 5     I don't know exactly.

 6        Q.   What about contact with General Krstic during that same period?

 7        A.   Because this company from Sekovici had deserted and some other

 8     individuals as well, I was asking the Drina Corps command to try to bring

 9     in those people and to return them in order to maintain morale in the

10     rest of the brigade.  I also called in and -- to the corps command in

11     code via another corps to send in tank crews which were left behind by

12     the Krajina army.  There were tanks, there was ammunition, but there were

13     no crews to operate them.

14        Q.   And did you ever receive any information concerning a plan to

15     exhume and rebury dead bodies in Zvornik?

16        A.   I never received that kind of information.  At that time all the

17     communication that I had with the Drina Corps was reduced to the problems

18     and the duties of the brigade that I was in command of.

19        Q.   And we've had a deal of evidence from you about this and we've

20     got your report, 7D439, but what was the combat situation like in the

21     Krajina between the 7th of August and the 16th of September?

22        A.   These were perhaps the most difficult days of the war for me.

23             MR. HAYNES:  Just to sweep up one document, can we have a look at

24     7D455, please.

25        Q.   What is this document?

Page 31205

 1        A.   This is a document drafted pursuant to a Drina Corps order of the

 2     21st of September, 1995, and refers to losses in Krajina suffered by the

 3     2nd Drina Brigade that I was in command of.  I think that I did not sign

 4     this document.  I am not sure.  We would need to look at the last page.

 5        Q.   Certainly we can do that, but were those losses, as it were,

 6     throughout the Drinski Brigade or were they limited to those soldiers

 7     which had been provided by the Zvornik Brigade?

 8        A.   I think that these are losses only of the Zvornik Brigade here.

 9     That's what it says in the heading anyway.

10             MR. HAYNES:  Very well.  Now, we are going to move back into, as

11     it were, a tighter historical narrative, and I wonder whether we can go

12     back to the practice of General Pandurevic having the hard copy of P379

13     available to him.  That's the later duty officers' log-book.  Thank you

14     very much, Ms. Stewart.

15        Q.   And I want to start with your looking at page 523, General

16     Pandurevic.

17             MR. HAYNES:  And that for the rest of us is 115.

18        Q.   And hopefully at the top of the page we can see that this relates

19     to the 14th of September, and I want to draw your attention, please, to

20     five lines up from the bottom, "telegram," something, "class number

21     03/4-2341 from 14 September, 1995."  And "telegram 10/34/2-3-701 from

22     14th September, 1995, delivered to Pantic."

23             Now, we all know what this is about.  It's about confirmation of

24     the arrival of some fuel.  Did you receive any advance information about

25     the arrival of any fuel at the Zvornik Brigade on the 14th of September?

Page 31206

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Were you in command of the Zvornik Brigade on the 14th of

 3     September?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Where were you on the 14th of September?

 6        A.   In the village of Ramici near Kljuc in Krajina.

 7        Q.   And you've gone through this briefly with us, but what had been

 8     happening to you in the week prior to the 14th of September?

 9        A.   That week before the 14th of September, I was practically working

10     to save the lives of my soldiers and to save my own life in the very

11     difficult fighting that was going on at the time.

12        Q.   Did you anticipate at any time during that week that you'd be

13     back in Zvornik on the 14th of September or any time shortly thereafter?

14        A.   No, the practice was that when the unit was being sent outside of

15     its home section to the defence sector of some other unit, the soldiers

16     usually expected to stay for 15 or 20 days at the most and then to be

17     relieved.  In this case, the unit stayed much longer and it was a major

18     problem for me to keep the units in that area and to prevent them from

19     leaving that sector arbitrarily to return to their own sector.

20             However, I insisted in order to adhere to command and control

21     that another brigade be sent to relieve us so that we would carry this

22     out in an organised manner so that it wouldn't seem that we were doing

23     what the soldiers wanted us to do.

24             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  Now, I want to move now to another

25     document just to go back to something that you told us a few minutes ago.

Page 31207

 1     And it's P378.  The duty operation officers' diary.  Pages 121 to 122 in

 2     B/C/S.  The English translation is 7D486.

 3             Thank you, that's very kind of you.

 4        Q.   Firstly, in the English translation the date in the left-hand

 5     margin is recorded at the top of the page as the 15th of May and about

 6     halfway down as the 16th of May.  Can you help us by, as it were, looking

 7     at the dates either side of that as to what in fact that should read?

 8        A.   The dates refer to two different days.

 9        Q.   But do they record events in May?

10        A.   I apologise, I never paid attention to the fact that the month is

11     May.  All the other dates refer to September, so this must be a mistake.

12        Q.   And on the day that is recorded as the 16th of May, if we go

13     forward one page in e-court to page 122, and you go over the page

14     yourself, what event does that record?

15        A.   16 of September is when the events happened, and it says in the

16     second row:

17                 "Today at 1130 the 2nd Drina Brigade returned to Zvornik

18     headed by the Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.  They returned to the

19     area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps."

20             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you and that would be a good moment to take a

21     break.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, we'll have a 25 minute break.  Thank

23     you.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

Page 31208

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

 2             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Now, General Pandurevic, when you returned to the command of the

 4     Zvornik Brigade on the 16th of September, 1995, what did you do?

 5        A.   Before I arrived at the command of the Zvornik Brigade, I entered

 6     the barracks.  Sometime before Kozluk I pulled over and waited for the

 7     column to gather, and then I proceeded towards Zvornik and arrived at the

 8     command of the Zvornik Brigade.  During the march we had radio

 9     communication, and we knew exactly where each of the echelons of the

10     column were at the time.  There were some vehicles that broke down.

11     There were buses that broke down.  We had to send a man from the repair

12     shop to repair or haul such vehicles away, so the process to gather the

13     whole brigade lasted until the afternoon.

14             I inspected every unit from every brigade, and I held meetings

15     with each of them.  I thanked all the men and I sent them to their

16     respective garrisons.  Finally, I was left with the brigade command, and

17     I also held a special meeting with them and we analysed the previous

18     events together.

19        Q.   Which brigade command?

20        A.   The 2nd Drina Light Infantry Brigade that had been sent to

21     Krajina.

22        Q.   And when you had done all that, what did you do then?

23        A.   Before I did all that, I had reported to General Krstic, and I

24     announced the arrival of the brigade at Zvornik.  I told him what we

25     would do next, and I suggested that I should come to Vlasenica the

Page 31209

 1     following day and report to him verbally.  And then to follow that up

 2     with a written report, the report that we have seen today in this

 3     courtroom.

 4        Q.   How long were you at the barracks of the Zvornik Brigade on the

 5     16th of September?

 6        A.   Until sometime in the evening.  I don't know how long.  In any

 7     case, I stayed until late afternoon or early evening.

 8        Q.   And where did you go then?

 9        A.   I went to Celopek to the place where that notorious number is.

10        Q.   Whilst you were at the Zvornik Brigade during the afternoon of

11     the 16th of September, were you engaged with the affairs of the Zvornik

12     Brigade at all?

13        A.   No, not at all.

14        Q.   Did anybody mention to you the arrival of a quantity of fuel two

15     days previously?

16        A.   No, nobody did.

17        Q.   Just out of interest, a delivery of fuel of that sort, where

18     would it physically be kept?

19        A.   Since we now know the quantity, it could have been in a 5 tonne

20     tank or it could have been stored at the gas station; the one that was

21     regularly used by the Zvornik Brigade.

22        Q.   And remind us where that was?

23        A.   In Karakaj.

24        Q.   How far from the brigade command?

25        A.   A couple of hundreds of metres.  Maybe up to 500 metres away.

Page 31210

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, when you arrived back at the Zvornik Brigade

 2     command, did you see Dragan Obrenovic?

 3        A.   I did not see him that day before the evening, and then I think I

 4     saw him in the evening before I left the barracks.

 5        Q.   For how long?

 6        A.   Just briefly.  I just told him that all the units had returned.

 7     I asked him to continue looking after them, just like I did to all the

 8     other brigade commanders from which elements of my brigade had been

 9     composed when I took them to Krajina.

10        Q.   Did he mention any fuel to you?

11        A.   No, he didn't.

12        Q.   Can we come on, please, to the 17th of September, the following

13     day.  What did you do on the morning of the 17th of September?

14        A.   I had planned to go to the corps command to report to General

15     Krstic there.  I first went to the brigade command in Zvornik where the

16     duty officer informed me that before I headed for Vlasenica I should call

17     General Krstic on the phone.

18        Q.   And did you do that?

19        A.   I did.  I phoned General Krstic.  We talked.  I briefed him.  I

20     told him that the brigade had accomplished its task, that the troops had

21     been redistributed to their original garrisons, and I asked him to grant

22     me a ten-day leave, and if there was no pressing need for me to come to

23     Vlasenica, that I should rather not come.  He accepted all of my

24     proposals and granted me the leave that I had requested.

25        Q.   At what time was that conversation?

Page 31211

 1        A.   That was in the morning.  Not very early.  I'm not sure.  Maybe

 2     around 9.00.

 3        Q.   And what did you do after you had spoken to General Krstic?

 4        A.   I went back to Celopek.  I organised my trip.  I booked

 5     accommodation in Botova [phoen] in Montenegro, and on the following day

 6     early in the morning I left.

 7        Q.   Did you go alone?

 8        A.   No, I did not go alone.  I went with my girlfriend.

 9        Q.   Now, let's just leave matters there for a moment and see if you

10     can help us with some of the records for the dates we've been talking

11     about.

12             MR. HAYNES:  Can we look firstly, please, at P378, the duty

13     operation officers' diary.  The same page we have on the screen, page 121

14     in both the English and B/C/S.

15        Q.   And the ERN number that you are looking for, General Pandurevic,

16     is 723.  Now, this is the entry for the 16th of September, and it's above

17     the entry that you read out to us last.

18             "Brigade commander inspected the positions of the 7th Battalion

19     in the village of Memici."

20             Did you do that on the 16th of September?

21        A.   No, it wasn't me.

22        Q.   How far is Memici from the command of the Zvornik Brigade?

23        A.   About 25 kilometres.

24             MR. HAYNES:  We've looked at this document I think before, 7D261,

25     please, in e-court.  And we'll need the fourth page of this document

Page 31212

 1     certainly in English.  I'll wait to advise whether that's the case in

 2     B/C/S as well.  Page 5 in B/C/S, please.

 3        Q.   We've just seen the front page of that document.  This is a

 4     vehicle work record relating to a Mercedes driven by a man called Ljubisa

 5     Danojlovic?

 6        A.   Ljubisa Danojlovic was Dragan Obrenovic's driver.  The one who

 7     most often drove him.

 8        Q.   And what does the entry reveal Ljubisa Danojlovic was apparently

 9     doing on the 16th of September?

10        A.   Looking at this document, you can see the routes that Dragan

11     Obrenovic's driver took and probably Dragan Obrenovic was in the car as

12     well.  On the 15th he went to Vlasenica.  On the 16th he went from

13     Zvornik to Memici and then back to Zvornik.  On the 17th it was

14     Zvornik-Pecina and back to Zvornik.  Pecina is the forward command post

15     of the 2nd Infantry Battalion close to the village of Malesici.

16             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  Just to reinforce the point, can we have

17     a look at P379, the duty operation officers' log-book.

18        Q.   You will want the ERN 528, General Pandurevic.

19             MR. HAYNES:  The rest of us need to look at page 120, 1-2-0.

20     Thank you.

21        Q.   And I think six lines down we see there at the third asterisks:

22             "Obren in the 7th and headquarters support teams in the 2nd

23     Battalion."

24             The 7th would be where?

25        A.   The 7th battalion was in Memici, and Obrenovic was also very

Page 31213

 1     often referred to as just Obren.

 2        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

 3             MR. HAYNES:  And lastly on this point 7D670.  The regular combat

 4     report for the 16th of September.

 5        Q.   The second paragraph:

 6                 "A team of officers from the brigade command is inspecting

 7     the 2nd Battalion in order to assess overall conditions in the unit and

 8     particularly the functioning of the RiK, command and control.  The

 9     brigade commander inspected the positions of the 7th Battalion defence

10     area in Staro Selo."

11             Who is referred to as the brigade commander there?

12        A.   Dragan Obrenovic.

13             MR. HAYNES:  And can we just go to the second page of that

14     document.  It's one of those documents which in Serbian has a blank page

15     in between pages 1 and 2.

16        Q.   This is yet another variation on how to sign a document:

17     "Standing in for the deputy commander, Major Dragan Obrenovic."  Any

18     comment to make about that?

19        A.   No, he was standing in for the commander of the brigade.

20             MR. HAYNES:  Can we move now, please, forward a couple of pages

21     in the duty operations officers' notebook, General Pandurevic, to page

22     530 in the hard copy version you have.  The rest of us, can we look at

23     page 122.

24        Q.   And it's the entry at the very top of the page:

25             "Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic to not go to Vlasenica.  Inform

Page 31214

 1     general not to go to Vlasenica in the afternoon.  Lieutenant-colonel in.

 2     Major is in Malesici at the briefing," and then, "Stevic 583-609."

 3             Let's deal with the first two lines there, Lieutenant-Colonel

 4     Pandurevic not to go to Vlasenica, inform General not to go to Vlasenica

 5     in the afternoon."  Help us, if you can, as to what the illegible portion

 6     says, and what that refers to.

 7        A.   I believe that you have read it out very well.  I was supposed to

 8     go to Vlasenica on the 17th to meet with the General Krstic.  However,

 9     the general or somebody on his behalf, but it says here as reported by

10     general that I should call the general before I left and that I should

11     not go there in the afternoon, which means that although I did talk to

12     the general, I did not meet with him face to face.  I did not go to

13     Vlasenica on that day.

14        Q.   Thank you.  "589-991 lieutenant-colonel in" --

15        A.   Celopek.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I don't think you need to tell us any more about

17     that.  "Major is in Malesici at the briefing."  Where is Malesici, what

18     briefing would that refer to?

19        A.   Malesic is the 2nd Infantry Battalion, and this was the briefing

20     of the commanders of the battalion division -- the division battalions

21     were headed by Dragan Obrenovic.  As you can see in the vehicle log of

22     his driver, on that day he was in Pecina which is the forward command

23     post of the 2nd Infantry Battalion in Malesic.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, we'll come on now to the 18th of September.

25             MR. HAYNES:  Can we have a look again in the duty operation

Page 31215

 1     officers' notebook for that date.  You need to look at page 632 and the

 2     rest of us at page 124.  That's P379.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's the mistake -- it's

 4     623 as the last page.

 5             MR. HAYNES:

 6        Q.   Well, just in relation to this example, you can look on the

 7     screen then General Pandurevic, if we put up page --

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9        Q.   432.  532.

10             We see on that page, "Obrenovic to be in Vlasenica at General

11     Krstic's at 1800 hours."  What purpose would he be fulfilling in doing

12     that on the 18th of September?

13        A.   It's possible that General Krstic needed to speak with Obrenovic

14     with a personal assignment for him, or perhaps it was a meeting of all

15     the commanders of the Drina Corps brigades in relation to some

16     assignments that they were supposed to receive.

17             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  Can we then just go to 7D261 again.

18     Again page 4 in the English and page 5 in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   And help us as to what we read under the entry the 18th of

20     September for Obrenovic's driver Ljubisa Danojlovic?

21        A.   The 18th of September it says:

22             "Zvornik-Pandurica route, Zvornik-Vlasenica.  Zvornik-Pandurica

23     is a hill in the area of defence of the 7th Battalion.  It's possible

24     that in the morning Obrenovic was touring that battalion and in the

25     evening he went to Vlasenici.

Page 31216

 1             MR. HAYNES:  Just to complete the picture for that date, can we

 2     look at 7D672, the regular combat report for the 18th of September.  It

 3     is another document that's under seal, so it should not be broadcast.

 4     Sorry, it hasn't appeared in the transcript.  7D672.

 5        Q.   And I think we just want to have a look at the bottom of this

 6     document to see who it is signed by and in what apparent capacity.

 7        A.   Signed by Dragan Obrenovic as a representative of the commander,

 8     or acting commander.

 9        Q.   Now, when you spoke to General Krstic --

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry for interrupting, but the interpreter

11     just said "standing in for the commander," and then said, "or acting

12     commander," and it's my understanding, perhaps the General can sort this

13     out, that there is a difference.  An acting commander is "vrsilac

14     duznosti," sorry about the pronunciation, but that's important and if we

15     could clarify that.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Haynes.

17             MR. HAYNES:  I'm not sure how we can clarify it, it's a

18     translation issue, isn't it?  But I'll do my best.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think so.  I think basically the -- your client

20     has heard Mr. McCloskey.  I think he can look at the document itself.  We

21     have on the screen -- and tell us --

22             JUDGE KWON:  What we have on the --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, "za stupa."  Yes --

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And just one of the reasons I bring it up is the

25     document that actually assigned Major Obrenovic to be standing in says

Page 31217

 1     "standing in," it says "za stupa," but it got translated by CLSS as

 2     "acting," and I didn't correct it at the time because I wasn't sure.

 3     That was 5D452.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think it's a question of whether the transcript

 5     or the interpretation we receive reflects what the document says or adds

 6     something different.  Perhaps you can address it straightaway with your

 7     client or your client who has heard this exchange can explain all this to

 8     us.

 9             MR. HAYNES:

10        Q.   Well, General Pandurevic, do you still have this document in

11     front of you on the screen?  And really, I'm simply going to ask you

12     this:  Have you got any comments about the title which is accorded to

13     Dragan Obrenovic in that document?

14        A.   I will try to explain so that at least it's as clear to everyone

15     else as it is to me.  In the original it says "za stupa," standing in for

16     the commander.  I understand in the translation it means "standing in."

17     The term used by Mr. McCloskey "acting commander," "vrsilac duznosti" is

18     a term that doesn't exist in law.  In the law or regulations it says

19     exactly what the status is of a person in the military.  They can be

20     active, they can be on sick leave, they can be in training, or they can

21     be removed from duty.  Or if they are prevented from carrying out their

22     duty, for example, if they are on sick leave they are assigned an acting,

23     so that is the definition for acting.

24             There is another word, "deputy commander," and that is an

25     establishment duty where the deputy where the commander is not present

Page 31218

 1     then stands in for the commander.  So acting commander as somebody who

 2     carries out their duty does not exist in legal terms or in the

 3     regulations.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, when you set out for your holiday in Montenegro,

 5     how long did you book it for in simple terms?

 6        A.   Ten days.

 7        Q.   And did you tell General Krstic that you were planning a ten-day

 8     holiday?

 9        A.   I asked for a ten-day leave and he granted it.

10        Q.   And did you personally leave information with the brigade that

11     you were on leave for ten days, or did you leave that to General Krstic

12     to deal with?

13        A.   I said that I would be away, that I would be taking time off, and

14     how the general could get in touch with me in the easiest possible way

15     was through the brigade command.

16             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  Now, I want to just look with you again

17     at a collection of reports made during your absence.  Firstly, on the

18     21st of September the regular combat report is 7D675.

19        Q.   Again, we need to look at the foot of that document to identify

20     the signature and the manner in which it is signed off.

21        A.   It says:  "Standing in for the commander, Major Dragan

22     Obrenovic," and then there is his signature.

23             MR. HAYNES:  Can we go back to paragraph 2, please.

24        Q.   The second bullet point:

25             "The brigade commander and Chief of Staff have visited the mixed

Page 31219

 1     artillery division," it should be, "units."  Who does that refer to?

 2        A.   This refers to Dragan Obrenovic and Milos Maksimovic.

 3             MR. HAYNES:  Can we look at the regular report for the 22nd of

 4     September, please, which is 7D676.

 5        Q.   Again second paragraph:

 6             "The brigade commander visited the 5th Infantry Company."

 7             Who does that refer to?

 8        A.   It refers to Dragan Obrenovic.

 9             MR. HAYNES:  And if we go to the second page of that report.

10        Q.   Who has signed it and how is it signed off?

11        A.   There is just a stamped signature.  There is no handwritten

12     signature by Dragan Obrenovic.

13             MR. HAYNES:  And lastly 7D677, the regular combat report for the

14     23rd of September.

15        Q.   Paragraph 2:

16             "The brigade commander visited the mixed artillery battalion."

17             Who does that refer to?

18        A.   Dragan Obrenovic.

19             MR. HAYNES:  Can we go back now to P379, the duty operations

20     officers' log-book.

21        Q.   You need to look at page 542.

22             MR. HAYNES:  The rest of us at page 134, an entry for the 23rd of

23     September.  Thank you.

24        Q.   The entry at 1028 for the 23rd of September:

25             "The commander went to Ekonomija and then to Vjenacac?"

Page 31220

 1             The reference to the commander is who?

 2        A.   Dragan Obrenovic.

 3        Q.   And where is Ekonomija?

 4        A.   That is the military farm that was close to Karakaj where pigs

 5     were raised.

 6        Q.   And Vjenacac?

 7        A.   Vjenacac is a dominant elevation above Kozluk where there was an

 8     artillery nest and an observation point.

 9        Q.   About six lines further down:

10             "The commander will be at the corps commanders on Monday at 0700

11     hours."

12             Reference to who?

13        A.   A meeting was scheduled here it at the corps command and this

14     refers to Dragan Obrenovic.

15        Q.   Now, as it happens, unless anybody objects to me leading on this,

16     we know the 23rd of September was a Saturday, so Monday at 0700 hours

17     would be what date?

18        A.   The 25th.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. HAYNES:  Can we look at 7D261 again, please.  And again it

21     will be page 4 in the English and page 5 in the B/C/S -- actually, no it

22     won't, but we'll see.  Page 2 in the English this time, page 3 in the

23     B/C/S.

24        Q.   And can you help us as to where Ljubisa Danojlovic was driving on

25     the 25th and then 26th of September?

Page 31221

 1        A.   On the 25th from 5.00 in the afternoon he was driving from

 2     Zvornik to Vlasenica and to Zvornik.  And on the 26th, Zvornik-Mrkonjic

 3     Grad, the village of Radic, meaning that he had gone the Krajina.

 4             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  And just to complete the picture of what

 5     was going on in your absence, can we have a look now please at P2391.  D

 6     in the B/C/S is under seal.  A in the English I don't believe is.

 7        Q.   This is an intercepted radio communication from the 22nd of

 8     September.  X apparently is a female, lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, and

 9     somebody called Mihalic.

10             The female says:

11             "Yes, give me Major Popovic, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic."

12             She says:  "Just a moment."

13             He says:

14             "Hello.

15             "Hello.  This is Popovic, can I help you?

16             "Mihalic here.

17             "Hi Nido.

18             "What's up Pop?

19             "Nothing much.

20             "It's like this.

21             "Hey Nido, did the fuel arrive?"

22             "I'm out of it, fuck it.

23             "Does Trbic know?  Is he there somewhere?

24             "He left.

25             "He is working on that right?  Yes, he is working, but I think he

Page 31222

 1     said that not much more work will be done today.

 2             "Yes, yes.  I knew something like that.  I knew it.

 3             "Say again?

 4             "Could you please find out if it came, if it arrived.  Call the

 5     gas station?

 6             "Okay?

 7             "Okay."

 8             Did you know anything about this conversation or what it was

 9     about.

10        A.   I don't know anything.  Earlier during the proceedings I've seen

11     this intercept, and of all the interpretations that were given, I really

12     didn't have any other ones before, and I don't have any now.

13        Q.   Did anybody call you in Budva and say, The Zvornik Brigade have

14     run out of fuel, that any work that was supposed to be done in that area

15     might have to stop?

16        A.   No, and I wouldn't have been able to resolve that problem from

17     Budva anyway.

18             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  Now let's move on to, as it were, what

19     you were doing.  Can we go back to the duty operations officers' log-book

20     P379.

21        Q.   You page 536.

22             MR. HAYNES:  The rest of us page 128.

23        Q.   Help us as to what date we're looking at now, please, General

24     Pandurevic, would you?

25        A.   This is the 19th of September, 1995.

Page 31223

 1        Q.   And we see there a telephone number and a room number and then

 2     your name.  What's that?

 3        A.   I arrived at Budva on the 18th and I settled into the hotel.

 4     However, in the morning the director of the hotel, or actually the

 5     reception staff said that the director had offered a new room, and I went

 6     to room 100, and then I informed them about the reception telephone

 7     number where I could be reached if Krstic needed to speak with me

 8     urgently.

 9        Q.   And just to be clear about this, what date did you anticipate

10     leaving that hotel?

11        A.   I don't remember the date exactly.  It could be the 27th.  It was

12     ten days later.

13        Q.   And did you stay ten days?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And why not?

16        A.   I think that this was on the 25th in the morning.  I got a

17     message from the reception to call a specific number, this was the number

18     of the brigade command.  I called and I got the message that General

19     Krstic had ordered me to cut short my holiday and to return.

20        Q.   What did you do after you had received the message?

21        A.   I packed, I checked out, and I went back.

22        Q.   Did you understand at that stage why you had been ordered to cut

23     short your holiday?

24        A.   I didn't know why.  I assumed that there was some urgent need or

25     some serious military circumstance.

Page 31224

 1        Q.   Well, obviously you found out at some stage.  So let's look at

 2     how events were unfolding back in Republika Srpska.

 3             MR. HAYNES:  Can we look, please, at 7D701.

 4        Q.   Did you know anything about the issuing of this order on the 25th

 5     of September before you went to Montenegro?  And that sounds a silly

 6     question.  Did you know that it was in General Krstic's mind to pass such

 7     an order before you went to Montenegro would be a better question?

 8        A.   No, I didn't because already three brigades from the Drina Corps

 9     had briefly stayed in the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps, so it wasn't to

10     be expected that another brigade would be sent there.  However, the

11     circumstances in that section of the front required that another brigade

12     be sent, so now another brigade of the Zvornik Brigade had to be sent now

13     to the zone of the 1st Krajina Corps.

14        Q.   What office did Lieutenant-Colonel Radomir Furtula hold?

15        A.   Radomir Furtula was commander of the 1st Podrinje Brigade, but

16     here he was appointed as the commander of the newly formed brigade that

17     was going to the area of the 1st Krajina Corps.

18        Q.   And when did you first learn that he had been appointed as

19     commander of that unit?

20        A.   I found out about it when Obrenovic was appointed instead because

21     the first one succumbed to some stomach problems, just like the first

22     time when I myself had to go instead of him.

23             MR. HAYNES:  Can we look, please, at P158.

24        Q.   This is an order of the Drina Corps dated the 26th of September

25     of 1995, appointing Dragan Obrenovic commander of the brigade in place of

Page 31225

 1     Lieutenant-Colonel Radomir Furtula.  We'll leave that to one side for a

 2     moment.

 3             Did you speak to General Krstic on the day that you received the

 4     message at the hotel?

 5        A.   I spoke with him in the afternoon.

 6        Q.   How did you speak to him?

 7        A.   I called him from a civilian phone, from the apartment of friends

 8     of mine.

 9             MR. HAYNES:  Can we go back, please, to the duty operations

10     officers' log-book.  Page 545 for you, General Pandurevic.  For the rest

11     of us page 137.

12        Q.   And it's really the last-but-one line on this page which reads:

13     "584-726 commander."  Firstly, what's the date of this entry?

14        A.   This is an entry from the 25th of September.

15        Q.   Secondly, what is that number and how did it come to be recorded

16     in the duty operations officers' notebook of the Zvornik Brigade?

17        A.   This is the number of my friends from which I called first the

18     command of the Zvornik Brigade, and then General Krstic.

19        Q.   Can you help us as to about what time the entry was placed in the

20     notebook?

21        A.   You can't conclude based on the previous entries.  There are no

22     clear indicators of time here.  As far as I can remember it was in the

23     afternoon, maybe sometime after 1500 hours.

24        Q.   And where were your friends?  Where did they live?

25        A.   They live in Zvornik.

Page 31226

 1             MR. HAYNES:  Now, I want to look with you now, please, at an

 2     intercept.  It's P2929.

 3        Q.   This is an intercept dated the 25th of September.  Timed at 1540.

 4     Let's have a look through it.

 5             "V:  Hello.  Put 01 on the line.

 6             "One moment.

 7             "Yes, I was resting a bit.

 8             "I am sorry.

 9             "That's okay.  Tell me.

10             "Legenda is here with me.

11             "Yes.

12             "We have now defined these tacks and obligations.

13             "Yes.

14             "Now, he is explicit in his demand to act as one.  No one should

15     join him.  He does not want to join a larger formation.

16             "Well, okay, let them go as one unit.

17             "And he would like to use the armoured section.

18             "Yes.

19             "Well, would he be able to for those other reasons?

20             "To do what?

21             "He wants to use his tanks.

22             "Yes.

23             "Well, how is he going do that?  We don't have freight trains, my

24     Vinko.  How much fuel would we need to get --"

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Do we have a correct B/C/S version?

Page 31227

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should be on the next page, Your

 2     Honour.

 3             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now, do you recognise this conversation?

 5        A.   I do indeed.

 6        Q.   Were you a participant in it?

 7        A.   Yes, I was.

 8        Q.   And who were you talking to?

 9        A.   I was talking to General Krstic via the switchboard.

10        Q.   What switchboard?

11        A.   I suppose the switchboard was in the Zvornik Brigade.

12        Q.   Physically, where were you when you were making that call?

13        A.   In Zvornik in my friend's apartment.

14        Q.   And how was it possible to connect you to General Krstic from

15     that number?

16        A.   I previously called the command of the Zvornik Brigade.  I

17     inquired about the tasks that had been given to the brigade.  I also

18     spoke to Legenda since he would have been at the forefront of the forces,

19     and then I called General Krstic in order to tell him that I had arrived

20     and that I was already at the command; although, on that day I did not go

21     to the brigade command, and I called him through the switchboard.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know if this answers your question,

23     Mr. Haynes, because I -- at least I understood it differently.  Your

24     question:

25             "And how was it possible to connect you to General Krstic from

Page 31228

 1     that number?"

 2             MR. HAYNES:

 3        Q.   Yes, could you explain the mechanics of the Zvornik Brigade

 4     connecting you to General Krstic from a private telephone number?

 5        A.   The switchboard in Zvornik has its civilian postal number.  I

 6     called that number, the latter number, and then by using that number, the

 7     switchboard connected me to the corps command.

 8        Q.   Was there any other way you could have spoken to General Krstic

 9     directly?

10        A.   I could have called the switchboard in the corps, and then the

11     corps switchboard would have put me through to the general.

12        Q.   Was there any reason you didn't do that?

13        A.   As far as I can remember I called the switchboard in Zvornik.  I

14     suppose that at that time I did not have the number of the Vlasenica

15     switchboard on me.

16        Q.   So that we are all clear, did you make one call or more than one

17     call from the domestic phone number?  Let me make that clearer.  Did you

18     make a call in which you spoke to somebody at Zvornik about the tasks and

19     then asked them to put you through, or did you call them, find out about

20     the tasks, put the phone back and dial back?

21        A.   First I called the command [Realtime transcript read in error

22     "commander"] of the Zvornik Brigade and I believe I spoke to the duty

23     operations officer there.  He conveyed the information to me regarding

24     the tasks that had been given to the Zvornik Brigade.  He mentioned

25     Legenda and his engagement.  I don't know if I called Legenda

Page 31229

 1     specifically or whether he was there already.  I can't remember that.

 2     But I know that I spoke to him, and he told me about a problem with

 3     regard to the engagement of his technical means.  In other words, he

 4     wanted to use his tanks from Zvornik.

 5             Then, I called General Krstic and I pretended that Legenda was

 6     with me, that we had defined all the tasks, and I told him about

 7     Legenda's request.  However, you can tell from this intercept, from this

 8     conversation, that I didn't know what kind of engagement was at stake, so

 9     I'm asking whether it was the closer variant.  I didn't know whether

10     Legenda would be sent to the 2nd Krajina Corps or the 1st Krajina Corps.

11     If General Krstic had given it a second thought, he could have concluded

12     that I was not at the command at the moment when I was talking to him.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Haynes, the first line of his answer, line 8

14     "commander" should read "command", am I correct?

15             MR. HAYNES:

16        Q.   General Pandurevic, when you made your first call, did you call

17     the command or the commander of the Zvornik Brigade?

18        A.   When I say the "command" I mean the duty operations officer.  We

19     always call him first, he's always there, and he will be the one to

20     answer.

21        Q.   On the day that you called General Krstic and had this

22     conversation that we had been looking at, did you go into the command of

23     the Zvornik Brigade?

24        A.   No, not on that day.

25        Q.   What date did you first go into the command of the Zvornik

Page 31230

 1     Brigade after your holiday?

 2        A.   On the following day, on the 26th of September.

 3        Q.   And what time of day did you go in to the command of the Zvornik

 4     Brigade?

 5        A.   As far as I can remember it wasn't early, and it was not at a

 6     normal beginning of work day.  I believe it was around 9.00.

 7        Q.   And when you arrived there, was Dragan Obrenovic still at the

 8     command of the Zvornik Brigade, or had he left?

 9        A.   He was there.  He was preparing the moves of the brigade that he

10     was to be in command of.  He was in a haste and I did meet him.

11        Q.   And what time did he leave according to your recollection?

12        A.   I believe that the brigade left around noon on the 26th of

13     September.

14             MR. HAYNES:  And can we just briefly have a look at the war

15     diary -- or, sorry, the duty operations officers' diary which you have in

16     front of you, P378.  We want page 127 --

17        Q.   -- and you need to look at page 729 in the hard copy, General

18     Pandurevic.

19             Can you read out the entry that has 1230 written in it.  It's the

20     second entry in the book?

21        A.   "At 1230, 434 soldiers joined the Drina Brigade and left for the

22     area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps.

23             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  And that I think is the end of the day.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes and Mr. Pandurevic.  We'll

25     stop here for the day.  We will resume tomorrow at 9.00.  Thank you.

Page 31231

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

 3                           February, 2009 at 9.00 a.m.