Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32198

 1                           Friday, 27 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning everybody.  And good morning,

 7     Madam Registrar.  Could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, our presentation as yesterday but I don't see

11     Mr. Sarapa, Mr. Ostojic, and Mr. Bourgon.  All right.  Ready to go,

12     Mr. McCloskey.  Good morning to you and good morning to you,

13     Mr. Pandurevic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, good morning.  Morning,

16     Your Honours, everyone, General.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I'd like to start of with just

19     briefly answering as much as I can right now -- briefly --

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  40 -- 4039?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, the question about the diary yesterday.

22     And we've checked the -- as I'd stated yesterday, the hard copies we've

23     been using and the electronic copies are all in the correct order.  There

24     was no impropriety, no making things straight.  There was no problem

25     whatsoever there.  So I don't know where that came from.  I know

Page 32199

 1     sometimes things seem a little different when looking at the screen.  And

 2     also, as you could tell, I was a bit taken aback by that charge of the

 3     most misleading cross-examination because I hadn't recalled any problem

 4     with the book.  And let me read to you what happened.  I'm sure this is a

 5     question of memory because back -- Mr. Trivic in the 21st of May, 2007,

 6     Mr. Thayer had him on the witness stand and said at page 11875:

 7             "Now, lastly, sir, I want to ask you to discuss a couple of

 8     questions about two entries in your diary.  At this time, if you still

 9     have it with you, sir - and I've also been asked by one of my friends

10     across the aisle to make sure that you have it available for your

11     testimony - it may be easier for you to refer to that original diary

12     which we furnished to my friends.  Feel free to take it out now, sir, if

13     you need to consult with it.

14             "Sir, I note you've taken out what I believe is your diary that

15     I've furnished to my friends, and it's perfectly appropriate if you need

16     to, to refer to it in answer to some of my questions or the questions of

17     my colleague or the Trial Chamber, but I would ask that, unless you

18     absolutely have to, if you can put it to the side so that we all

19     understand that when you're answering a question, that it comes from your

20     memory, and if you do need the aid that we know for the record when you

21     are getting the aid.  Okay?  Thank you, sir."

22             We will endeavour to get the original diary again to further

23     answer any questions that may arise.  That was on page 11813.  Okay.

24                           WITNESS:  VINKO PANDUREVIC [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 32200

 1                      Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:  [Continued]

 2        Q.   General, we were on the 15 July intercept, 65 ter 1179A, and

 3     B/C/S 1179B.  And I do not have a hard copy for you, if we could rely on

 4     the computer for that, I apologise.  And let that part get up there.

 5     I'll read this slowly in English and if you can't make that out we can

 6     come up with a print-out, if need be, but we're almost done with it.

 7             As you'll recall this is the lower third of this conversation

 8     where we -- Krstic had said:  "Check with Blagojevic.  Take his red

 9     berets."

10             Beara says:  "They are not there.  Only four of them are still

11     there.  They took off, fuck 'em, they're not there anymore."

12             Krstic says:  "I'll see what I can do."

13             Beara says:  "Check it out and have them go to Drago's?"

14             Given what we know, what do you believe this Drago reference to

15     be?

16        A.   We mentioned yesterday that second intercept talking about

17     location 139 where Zivanovic called to get him to call Beara, and we

18     found out whose number that was and that's Drago.  The man with the

19     extension 139.

20        Q.   Okay.  And Krstic goes on:  "I can't guarantee anything, I'll

21     take steps."

22             Beara:  "Krle I don't know what to do anymore."

23             Krstic:  "Ljubo, then take those MUP guys from up there."

24             Beara:  "No, they won't do anything.  I talked to them.  There's

25     no other solution but for those 15 to 30 men with Indjic.  They were

Page 32201

 1     supposed to arrive on the 13th but didn't."

 2             Has Mr. Beara ever told you which MUP guys he is talking about

 3     here?

 4        A.   Mr. Beara never told me anything about this, and from this first

 5     part of the conversation we see that some were brought from Bratunac.

 6     The red berets or whatever they call them.  And they were probably

 7     engaged to take part in the execution activities.  Some of them left and

 8     some of them stayed.  However, with Ljubisa Beara I never discussed this

 9     and he never made any comments.

10        Q.   So you have no idea which MUP guys refused to take part in this,

11     according to this conversation?

12        A.   Well, I suppose somebody from the public security centre in

13     Zvornik.

14        Q.   Dragomir Vasic or Mane Djuric would be the two top people from

15     the public security centre in Zvornik; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  We go on:  Krstic:  "Ljubo, you have to understand me too.

18     You guys fucked me up so much."

19             What do you think he means by that?

20        A.   Well, I can only derive my opinion and position from the context

21     as to what he means when he says this.  Krstic must have become aware of

22     all that had happened by that moment, and he was not really willing to go

23     on participating in all that because those executions that had happened,

24     that's probably what he means, that a lot had been done to him.

25        Q.   Doesn't he mean that the resources required of this operation

Page 32202

 1     were a big draw on Krstic and that's what fucked him up so much?  Having

 2     to deal with this operation for one, and having to deal with the

 3     resources to staff it for the other?

 4        A.   Well, you see, from the context of this conversation, Beara is

 5     expecting Indjic, and Indjic had been assigned to him before, probably.

 6     The resources who would be taking part in this had already been

 7     determined, and now somebody is asking for more resources from Krstic.

 8     That's how I understand it.

 9        Q.   Beara goes on:

10             "I understand, but you have to understand me too, had this been

11     done then, we wouldn't be arguing over it now."

12             Krstic:  "Fuck it, now I'll be the one to blame."

13             Beara:  "I don't know what to do.  I mean it, Krle.  There are

14     still 3.500 parcels that I have to distribute and I have no solution."

15             What do you think he means when he says 3.500 parcels to

16     distribute.

17        A.   Well, as General Zivanovic said, to the best of his knowledge,

18     Ljubo was not a postman.  He probably meant those people who were held

19     prisoners, that they had to get rid of them.

20        Q.   And when you say get rid of, you mean kill?

21        A.   Probably.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon, who, for the record, entered the

24     courtroom about five minutes ago.  Yes.

25             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  I'd like first of all

Page 32203

 1     to object to this entire line of questioning that is being put to the

 2     witness and I'd like Mr. McCloskey -- whether he could enlighten us as to

 3     what is the purpose of the questioning.  Is he trying to challenge the

 4     credibility of the witness or is the witness being asked to answer

 5     questions in his capacity as an expert witness?

 6             This is a conversation to which he was not privy to.  These are

 7     events in which he was not involved and now we are asking him to explain

 8     what do you think Mr. Beara said or what do you think this happened, what

 9     do you think this means.

10             This is entirely improper, Mr. President.  It doesn't help us --

11     it doesn't help the trier of fact in any way.  The questions are being

12     put to the witness can be answered by anybody this courtroom as well as

13     by the witness, and we are both wasting time and we are not going

14     anywhere with these questions.

15             Thank you, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  Would you like to comment

17     very briefly, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think I would need to make an argument which I

19     don't think is necessary.  This witness is perfectly capable of providing

20     his views, and I don't want to derogate Mr. Butler, but I think this

21     witness in a position to be able to provide us his views and I think we

22     know the context by which we are getting them.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

24             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, my colleague just said, the

25     witness -- he would like to have the views of the witness.  The views of

Page 32204

 1     the witness will not get this courtroom and this trial anywhere further.

 2     All we are going to do is doing something that is - I hate to say this

 3     word because I can't pronounce it - sensationalism.  That's all we're

 4     doing here.  Nothing else.  This won't help the trier of fact at the end

 5     of the day to know what the views of this witness are on this particular

 6     intercept.  He is not privy to the conversation, Mr. President.  This is

 7     simply guess-work.  Thank you.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry but I need to respond to that.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey, finish ... [Microphone not

10     activated]

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon, Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Bourgon, we

13     completely disagree with you or even view your question as almost

14     obstructive.  Let's proceed.  It's a perfectly legitimate question which

15     the witness can answer, having lived those circumstances in those days.

16     So let's proceed.  Having heard or not heard the intercept, if it ever

17     happened, is another matter.

18             Yes, Mr. Pandurevic.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Okay.  Just to finish it off, Krstic says:

21             "I'll see what I can do."

22             And then of course we see on the 16th, you'll agree with me, the

23     appearance at the Zvornik Brigade command of the 10th Sabotage Detachment

24     with Drazen Erdemovic and others, and we know where they went and what

25     they did; correct?

Page 32205

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Now, let's go to 65 ter number 334.  This

 3     is your 18th of July interim combat report.  And it should be page 2 of

 4     the English, and page 5 of the B/C/S.  And it's under paragraph 4.  I

 5     know you've talked about this.  I won't spend a lot of time with it.

 6     Under paragraph 4, the situation in the territory, you say:

 7             "During the last 10 days or so, the municipality of Zvornik has

 8     been swamped with Srebrenica Turks.  It is inconceivable to me that

 9     someone brought in 3.000 Turks of military age and placed them in schools

10     in the municipality, in addition to 7.000 or so who have fled into the

11     forests.  This has created an extremely complex situation and the

12     possibility of total occupation of Zvornik in conjunction with the forces

13     at the front.  These actions have stirred up great discontent among the

14     people and the general opinion is that Zvornik is to pay the price for

15     taking of Srebrenica."

16             Now, General, when you say "these actions" are you including in

17     that the murder of those thousands of Srebrenica Muslims?

18        A.   I heard the word "these actions," but I can't find that word

19     "actions" in the original.  But it is certain when I wrote this, this was

20     a way of making it known that these people were killed in the

21     municipality of Zvornik, that's where it says Zvornik was swamped, and

22     the rest of the paragraph means that the liberation of Srebrenica cost

23     Zvornik its life, and even now it's a place where only weeds grow and

24     Zvornik did nothing to deserve that.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, sorry to butt in.  You started your

Page 32206

 1     answer by saying, "I heard the word 'these actions.'"  These actions were

 2     actually spoken by Mr. McCloskey.  Then you added, "but I can't find that

 3     word 'actions' in the original."  What do you find in the original,

 4     because ultimately this is a document that you authored yourself?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it's caused by these

 6     actions.  Yes, that's what it says.  I just didn't notice it at first.

 7     What is meant is the action of bringing these people into Zvornik

 8     municipality and their liquidation.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   So when speaking of the liquidation or the murder of these

11     Muslims, you have deliberately spoken here in cryptic, meaning thinly

12     veiled or thinly disguised terms?

13        A.   Yes.  For the person who received this report, that was the corps

14     command, it was quite clear what I meant by these words, and my intention

15     was to leave a written trace of these events so that history might know

16     what really happened.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, let's now go to 65 ter 329.  Another report

18     to that same commander, and in the view of the Prosecution on the same

19     subject.

20        Q.   And if I could hand you the original.  And I will go over this

21     just so that when we get to the part I'm most concerned with, we'll at

22     least have the context in our mind:

23             "Since the fall of Srebrenica in the territory of the

24     1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade area of responsibility, in the wider area of

25     Pandurica, Planinci, Crni Vrh, Kamenica, and Glodjansko Brdo, there are

Page 32207

 1     about 3.000 armed and unarmed enemy soldiers.  Brigade forces are sealing

 2     off and searching the aforementioned region.  A few hundred enemy

 3     soldiers have so far been liquidated.

 4             "Throughout 15 July 1995, BH Army forces of the Tuzla 2nd Corps

 5     launched fierce attacks on the brigade Defence area in order to link up

 6     with the forces which had been cut off.  The attack on the Defence area

 7     of the 4th, 6th, and 7th Battalions along the Petkovci-Memici stretch,

 8     was launched at 0430 hours, with simultaneous actions by the besieged

 9     forces.

10             "Enemy attacks were vigorously supported by all calibres of

11     artillery and tanks.  Attacks of varying intensity followed one other

12     from the direction of Nezuk and Kalesija on Memici.  The attack on Memici

13     is still in progress.  All targets deep inside the territory, and the

14     suburbs and town of Zvornik have been under artillery fire.  All attacks

15     have been repulsed successfully so far.

16             "So far, according to information received, we have four dead and

17     a dozen or so wounded.  With all available forces, we have sealed off the

18     wider area of Crni Vrh and Planinci and partially the area of Kamenica.

19     All brigade forces are fully engaged and we have no reserves."

20             You've spoken about that so I won't ask you again.  Then we get

21     to this paragraph, the next one:

22             "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners

23     distributed throughout schools in the brigade area, as well as

24     obligations of security and restoration of the terrain."

25             Now, General, can you explain to us when you say, "An additional

Page 32208

 1     burden for us is the large number of prisoners distributed throughout the

 2     schools in the brigade area," what did you mean?  What was the additional

 3     burden that those prisoners in those schools placed you in?  Placed on

 4     you, excuse me.

 5        A.    Well, I've already explained that in my examination-in-chief

 6     when Mr. Grujic relayed this information to me that there were prisoners

 7     located in schools and I assessed this in the same manner in which he

 8     told me, that people living there were quite concerned and that this

 9     could have a direct impact on the situation in the frontline.  So I

10     didn't say that I had duties and tasks with regard to treatment of those

11     people, but that in and by itself, it creates an additional burden.

12        Q.   So the burden is the concern that the local population would feel

13     having these people in their and around their towns?

14        A.   That too, but also their contacts with the soldiers on the

15     frontlines.

16        Q.   That's it.  That's the only burden you are talking about?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Were you aware that civilians had contacted soldiers on the

19     frontline about this when you wrote it?

20        A.   No, I did not receive any such information at that time.

21        Q.   So that was just a mere possibility?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   All right.  Nothing else?

24        A.   Nothing else.

25        Q.   Now, then you go on to say:

Page 32209

 1             "As well as obligations of security and restoration of the

 2     terrain."  Meaning "asanacija terena," restoration of the terrain.  What

 3     did you mean by "asanacija terena"?

 4        A.   But the word that proceeds it, security, it does not correspond

 5     to the word "obezbedjenje" in Serbian; we spoke about that at length.

 6     And we also explained at length the meaning of the term "asanacija" based

 7     on the rules of service from 1981.  The "asanacija," sanitization of the

 8     frontline, those were the duties that I had in front of me and were

 9     underway to an extent because those combat activities were not -- had not

10     been planned in advance, and that's a prerequisite for the sanitization

11     of the terrain to be envisaged in those plans, to be made part of the

12     plans.

13        Q.   In your direct, General, you said that when you defined the term,

14     you went to the definition that said the first thing that would be done

15     would be go out and find and take care of wounded.  Is that what you are

16     talking about?

17        A.   Yes, among other things because it was under way.

18        Q.   So going out and finding and taking care of the wounded was an

19     additional burden, as stated in this paragraph?

20        A.   Yes, because I have to detach a part -- elements of the forces to

21     take care of that, and evacuated the wounded in the course of combat is

22     not an easy task.

23        Q.   So besides going out and evacuating the wounded, what else did

24     you mean by this reference to "asanacija terena," what specifically?  And

25     as we recall, there is no battle going on now.  You are even thinking

Page 32210

 1     about opening a corridor the next day.  You've said you had decided you

 2     were going to.  So what else, if anything, when you say "asanacija

 3     terena" are you trying to communicate here to General Krstic?

 4        A.   The term "asanacija terena" also encompasses gathering up the

 5     casualties, those who were killed and we did have some people killed.

 6     There was an ambush at Crni Vrh.  And when we are talking about

 7     obligations here, it doesn't mean that "asanacija" would be carried out

 8     that very moment but that was an obligation that I was to also carry out

 9     the next day, and that's what happened.

10        Q.   General, I'm not asking you about the definition.  We have two

11     definitions.  I'm asking you what specifically did you have in mind

12     besides going out and evacuating wounded, in this context?  We know the

13     definition.

14        A.   Well, I can't go beyond the definition.  I'm a soldier, I know

15     what the "asanacija bojista," sanitization of the battle-field means.  I

16     took it to mean the evacuation of the wounded and the removal of the dead

17     bodies of those who had been killed and nothing else.  And you should

18     look at it in the context of securing the terrain.

19        Q.   Yes, we recall your explanation on that.  My question is, though,

20     how can that be an additional burden when you've already explained that

21     in the previous paragraph?

22        A.   Well, in the previous passage, I describe the combat situation,

23     the tactical situation in the field on the 15th and until the time when

24     this report was filed.

25        Q.   You were aware at the time that you wrote this that there were

Page 32211

 1     thousands of prisoners still alive in both the Rocevic School and the

 2     Branjevo farm and the cultural centre at Pilica, and you know that

 3     Zvornik Brigade soldiers were involved in securing them in Pilica, you've

 4     heard that evidence.  I don't want to go over it.  Many soldiers, 20,

 5     30 soldiers at least in the Zvornik Brigade 1st Battalion, and soldiers

 6     in Rocevic as well.  You also know when you wrote this that thousands of

 7     Muslims had been buried at Orahovac in the 14th and were in the process

 8     of being buried on the 15th, which is also, you'll agree with me, part of

 9     the definition of "asanacija," and that with thousands more people to be

10     killed, that burden would be ever increasing.

11             General, there's only one reasonable way to interpret this

12     cryptic, I acknowledge cryptic, comment to General Krstic, your

13     obligations of security are guarding the prisoners and your obligations

14     of "asanacija" are burying them.  That's right, isn't it?

15        A.   That's not right, Mr. McCloskey.  You synthesized the events

16     here, the events that I was aware of at the time, and the events that I

17     learned at a later stage or even in the course of this trial.  Now, you

18     are trying to put those words into my mouth, and these are big words.  If

19     I try to swallow them, I even if I succeed, then I -- my stomach will not

20     be able to deal with them.

21             I wrote things that I meant.  I did not have any information at

22     my disposal that anyone was killed at the time or that there were

23     preparations underway to kill anyone and you told me yesterday that by

24     the 15th in the morning, the burial was already done in Petkovci and in

25     Orahovac, so there was no obligation for "asanacija" in this meaning of

Page 32212

 1     the term.  However, "asanacija" does not involve any of the kind.  It is

 2     not a crime.  It is a necessary legal act that has to be carried out.  I

 3     remember the footage shown to Mr. Trivic by Mr. Thayer, asking him

 4     whether this was "asanacija" and he said it wasn't and I agree with him.

 5        Q.   When you mention "asanacija," if all you were talking about is

 6     evacuating wounded and finding dead Serbs, why do you tell -- why did you

 7     tell Eileen Gilleece or use the killing of pigs in December of 1992 as an

 8     example of "asanacija"?

 9        A.   Well, "asanacija" refers both to the "asanacija," clear-up of the

10     battle-field and of the field in general, the terrain that is outside of

11     the battle-field and it can be carried out both by army units and by

12     civilian protection units.  I tried to give her a very illustrative

13     example of what "asanacija" might mean.

14             You remember what Mr. Butler said in his testimony when this was

15     discussed, that this report was interpreted by some members of your team

16     as being exculpatory for me, and then, then there was a volte-face and

17     that became the key piece of incriminating evidence against me.  I would

18     not now like to quote Cardinal Richelieu who said, Give me one sentence

19     and I will hang the man, because this is what it is.

20        Q.   Didn't answer my question, General.  Why, if "asanacija" -- why

21     if you are not burying anybody on the 15th, you're evacuating wounded and

22     finding dead, why are you talking about burying pigs when you're

23     referring to the 15th July in a report to Eileen Gilleece which you have

24     acknowledged you have?  Isn't it true, General, that you have changed

25     your defence since speaking to Eileen Gilleece?

Page 32213

 1        A.   No, Mr. McCloskey, I answered your previous question.  You might

 2     not be happy with the answer but I did say why I mentioned pigs.  Please

 3     read my answer and you will see it is an answer to your question, and I

 4     did not change my testimony.

 5        Q.   You didn't let those prisoners go, did you?  Even though you

 6     threatened it?

 7        A.   Well, how did I threaten them?

 8        Q.   It's a translation issue.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think so.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can reword that.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Maybe you could repeat it, please, Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   General, it's the Prosecution's position that when you said, "If

14     someone doesn't take care of this problem, I will be forced to let them

15     go," you were threatening your command that you were going to let the

16     prisoners go because you had better things to do than deal with a huge

17     crime like this, and yes, General, that's exculpatory; and had you let

18     them go, General, when you got back, we wouldn't be sitting here, I don't

19     think.  So that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about

20     exculpatory.  But you didn't let those prisoners at the school go, did

21     you?  I'm happy you thought about it.

22        A.   Mr. McCloskey, if you had interpreted this correctly, perhaps I

23     wouldn't be sitting here and many other things would not have happened.

24     This is not the end of the report.  It says here I will be forced to let

25     them go, full stop and then signature.  You want to put it to me that I

Page 32214

 1     am referring to the prisoners of war.  But please read the next passage

 2     which is directly linked with the previous one.  It says, The commander

 3     from the opposite side, Semso Muminovic, in other words, has been offered

 4     to separate the civilians and for the rest to surrender, and this was

 5     rejected because they wanted us to let all of them go, and this is the

 6     reference to the 28th Division.

 7             How could I separate the civilians from the soldiers and then to

 8     have the soldiers surrender?  Those who were -- who surrendered and then

 9     were taken prisoner cannot be taken prisoner again and then separated

10     again.  So this is a clear context.  We're talking about the column of

11     the 28th Division being let through, not the prisoners of war.  And at

12     that time I was not aware of their fate and I did not make any decisions

13     regarding their fate, and this is the only way in which you can interpret

14     this.  And if we add the 16th of July report that follows up on this

15     about them being let through, well, then there can be no doubt.

16        Q.   General, we can all see that there's a new paragraph and that

17     you've switched subjects, you are not talking about the prisoners

18     anymore, you were talking about the column.  So I don't wish to argue

19     with you about it.

20             Tell me, what your professional relationship with General

21     Radinovic?

22        A.   We never had a professional relationship.  While I was an active

23     duty serviceman in the JNA, I was in Slovenia, he was in Belgrade, and

24     afterwards he retired and I did not have any official relationship with

25     him.  You mean, Radinovic, I heard the interpreter say Radenovic.

Page 32215

 1        Q.   Tell us who General Radinovic is, the expert for General Krstic

 2     at his trial?

 3        A.   He was an expert in the Krstic case, yes.

 4        Q.   And who is he?

 5        A.   He is a retired general, a professor.  He used to be the chief of

 6     the so-called Centre for Strategic Studies and Research in the Yugoslavia

 7     People's Army.  He was an expert for defence systems.  That's as far as I

 8     know.  I read some of his books and that's it.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I need to clarify this in my mind.  So when

10     previously you referred to the officer who was in Belgrade when you were

11     in Slovenia, were you talking of the same person or were you talking of

12     someone with a different although similar name?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same person, Your Honour,

14     it's General Radinovic.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   And in one of your books that -- on a military topic, we see that

17     he was involved in some way in editing it or something.  Can you explain

18     what that was?

19        A.   I don't know what books you are referring to.  The book, "Basics

20     of the defence system of Republika Srpska," he may have been an expert

21     reviewer.  There was another man who also peer reviewed a book.

22        Q.   The book I'm talking about is called, "National interests as a

23     basis of military doctrine."

24        A.   "National interests as the origin of military doctrine," I think

25     that was the title.  I am not sure whether he peer reviewed that book.  I

Page 32216

 1     think that it was actually reviewed by another professor, Stisovic, we

 2     can perhaps look at the impressum because it should be there.

 3        Q.   Well, we will.  It should be coming.  In any event, in your

 4     direct testimony in talking about this 15 July interim report, you said

 5     on page 31009, in a response to Mr. Haynes on the previous page where he

 6     said:

 7             "Q.  Were you referring in that report to guarding and burying

 8     prisoners of war?

 9             "A.  This passage may be interpreted from the linguistic point of

10     view but it would take other kinds of experts to do that.  I can only

11     interpret it from the aspects of the essence of the matter that is

12     contained here.  This had nothing to do with guarding prisoners or

13     burying their bodies.  It cannot even be suggested by the words that were

14     used in this document."

15             Now, in response to that last comment, that it cannot even be

16     suggested, let me read you some of the words of General Radinovic who

17     testified for the Krstic Defence about this report.  And he says on

18     6 December 2000, at page 7987:

19             "In this part of the report, we see several facts which are

20     extremely important.  Vital for this trial.  The commander of the Zvornik

21     Brigade knows, therefore, that in his zone of responsibility there are

22     prisoners of war.  That is the first fact that we see from this report.

23             "The second fact is that he says that this is using up the

24     brigade's resources, which he is lacking in anyway, for the defence, for

25     the defence of his zone of responsibility.  And he mentions the

Page 32217

 1     expenditure of resources in order to secure the prisoners, and with the

 2     sense of clearing up the terrain so these are the obligations.  And he

 3     says that he cannot take care of this burden, this additional burden any

 4     longer and take care about those problems.

 5             "For me, the report means that he is well aware of the fact that

 6     the prisoners are in his area of responsibility, that up until that time

 7     he has provided security for them, that his men are doing that, but that

 8     they can no longer be responsible for that.  So that leads us to conclude

 9     that the commander does know about the prisoners but that quite

10     certainly, the commander does not know that already at the time,

11     according to the data and information that I learned about by reading the

12     documents for his testimony -- for this testimony of mine, that already

13     at that time the prisoners had already been liquidated in his zone of

14     responsibility.

15             So it is quite certain that he does not know about that because

16     had he known about it, he would have known that he was responsible for

17     that and that fact would not have been disclosed.  It would have been

18     hidden because in this way he steps into the chain of responsibility."

19             He goes on on one final statement, 12 December, page 8404:

20             "When the brigade commander returned from Zepa to the area of

21     responsibility, he was told that the prisoners of war were in his area of

22     responsibility, and he was asking why they weren't where they should have

23     been pursuant to the order.  And that they were using up resources that

24     he needed for the front.  That's why he launched this appeal that he

25     couldn't be in charge of the responsibilities, that somebody else had to

Page 32218

 1     look after them which meant the Superior Command, and that if they did

 2     not take them over, he would be forced to let them go.  So this is an

 3     appeal to the Superior Command to take over the prisoners of war.  To our

 4     great misfortune and our shame, we know how they dealt with them."

 5             So it's the position of the Prosecution that General Radinovic

 6     had a good part of this absolutely correct.  We don't agree that you

 7     didn't know about the killings, but the rest of this we agree with.  It's

 8     the logical and appropriate evaluation, isn't it, General?

 9        A.   No, it is not.  It's a lengthy passage that you read out to me,

10     but let me try and answer to the best of my understanding.  First of all,

11     Mr. Radinovic interpreted just one passage from the report which contains

12     seven or eight paragraphs.  And this misled him, bringing him to a

13     situation where he is drawing erroneous conclusions.

14             Secondly, he is contradictory in his conclusions.  At the

15     beginning he says that I was aware of the obligation to guard and bury

16     those people, and then he goes on to say in the second part that I didn't

17     know that they had already been killed, and that this was not my concern.

18             Now, if you read this report in its entirety, and when you reach

19     the paragraph where he says this command can no longer take care of these

20     problems, the reference is to all the problems that are listed in the

21     previous paragraphs of that report.  And we cannot now behave like a

22     herbalist who goes out into the meadow and then picks only the healing --

23     the ones that heal, and rejects all the others as noxious.  You take

24     Mr. Radinovic's report where it is to my detriment and you reject it

25     where it is to my benefit.  So I cannot take this interpretation that

Page 32219

 1     you've just presented to me as being correct.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

 3             MR. HAYNES:  I'd like to pick up on that.  I think this is a

 4     witness caught in the Defence of General Krstic and I think it's only

 5     fair that the Prosecution state their position as to his evidence.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think you've made that point and it will go on

 7     record.  Do you wish to comment on that?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I thought I did.  That I agreed with part of it

 9     and I disagreed with the other part.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  And let me, on behalf of the

11     Trial Chamber, make one thing clear.  It's what was put to the witness by

12     Mr. McCloskey and particularly the witness's answer that is the testimony

13     here.  What Mr. Radinovic may have said in the Krstic trial is not in

14     evidence in this case.  Do you agree to that?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely, Mr. President.  I do not intend to

16     offer this statement.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  In other words, that's what I wanted you to

18     confirm, that you are not offering Mr. Radinovic's statement in the

19     Krstic trial as evidence in this case.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, I am not.  And there's only one reason I

21     brought that in, it's for the credibility, and the only reason I did is

22     because he said, I can't -- it cannot even be suggested by the words that

23     were used in this document.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Right.  The important thing is that we are

25     fine-tuned together on this.

Page 32220

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Now, you had a chance to listen to the complete audio of

 3     General Radinovic; isn't that correct, General?

 4        A.   I received a DVD but it was not in chronological order.  I tried

 5     to listen to it but it was a long time ago, so I don't really recall all

 6     the details.  But you now have a unique chance.  You have the author of

 7     this report here in front of you and nobody can give you a better

 8     interpretation of this report than I.

 9             First of all, it's written in my mother tongue which I understand

10     so well, I know what I meant.  I know what was happening in the field,

11     and this is the best person to talk to about this.  I am the best person

12     you have.

13        Q.   Well, you said that it couldn't be interpreted any other way,

14     let's see how General Krstic interpreted it, the person that it was sent

15     to.  And I'll take you to General Krstic's testimony, cross-examined by

16     me, page 6738.  And of course the same understanding for General Krstic

17     as for General Radinovic.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

19             MR. HAYNES:  I just wonder what the question is going to be at

20     the end of it.  I mean, isn't this asked and answered now.  It's all very

21     well reading great chunks of other people's evidence into the testimony,

22     but if the question is the same, the question is the same.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  I stand to be corrected, of course, but I think

24     Mr. McCloskey is trying to push his case one step further that your

25     client is not telling the truth, on this point at least.  So let's hear

Page 32221

 1     what the question is.

 2             MR. HAYNES:  He has already suggested that about four times.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Maybe he is trying to prove it now.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The point is, if General Pandurevic says it can't

 5     be interpreted any other way and I have General Krstic interpreting it

 6     another way I think it's fair game to ask him about that.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

 9        Q.   Page 6738, he is being asked questions by me:

10             "Q.  So what does Vinko Pandurevic mean when he says, 'the burden

11     for us'?  Is he speaking of the Zvornik Brigade?

12             "A.  I think he is speaking about the prisoners whom someone

13     brought to the area of responsibility of his brigade.

14             "Q.  I'm asking you what the meaning of 'us' is?

15             "A.  The Zvornik Brigade probably.

16             "Q.  And if the Zvornik Brigade's obligations of security were

17     the obligations imposed on them by Colonel Beara, what would those

18     obligations have been?

19             "A.  Probably security.  Security of the facilities and features

20     where the prisoners were."

21             Then going down a few more passages:

22             "Q.  This command cannot take care of these problems any longer.

23     Now, these problems, these are problems of obligations of security and

24     restoration of the terrain, are they not?

25             "A.  He is probably thinking of the security issue.

Page 32222

 1             "Q.  The one we just spoke of regarding the responsibilities

 2     imposed upon him by Ljubo Beara, pursuant to orders from General Mladic?

 3     I'm sorry.  I interrupted you.  What was your answer?  You said yes?

 4             "A.  I didn't answer the question.

 5             "Q.  Okay.  Well, let me try to clear it up.  So the problems

 6     that Vinko Pandurevic cannot take care of any longer are the obligations

 7     of security; is that right?

 8             "A.  He is probably thinking of that."

 9             Goes on:

10             "Q.  General, what materials are needed for executions in the

11     context like Orahovac when you have those sorts of numbers?

12             "A.  I don't know what materials are needed.  That is something

13     that the person that did that, executed that, knew, and it wasn't

14     Vinko Pandurevic, and I'm quite sure that he wasn't thinking of those

15     materials.  If he was thinking of anything, he was probably thinking of

16     food for his brigade and for the prisoners of war.  He does not speak

17     here at all about executions of any kind.

18             "Q.  'If no one takes on this responsibility, I will be forced to

19     let them go.'  Who is he referring to, letting who go?

20             "A.  Probably the prisoners of war.

21             "Q.  Located in the schools distributed throughout his area?

22             "A.  That is what he said, in the schools.

23             "Q.  So are you saying that the burden that he is concerned with

24     is the care and feeding of those prisoners, if someone doesn't take care

25     of the feeding of those prisoners, he's going to have to let them go?

Page 32223

 1             "A.  Precisely so."

 2             So we have the person that received this and given he is on trial

 3     and having to answer questions from me, but you see what is he is saying,

 4     yes, Vinko is not guilty of anything involved in the murder operation,

 5     but he knows about the prisoners in the school and that's the burden.

 6     What is your comment to that?

 7        A.   As far as I know, you didn't believe a word General Krstic said

 8     in his testimony.  And if your intention is now to use one lie to prove

 9     another lie, I just don't understand it.  General Krstic concludes here

10     that there are prisoners held in schools.  It's written clearly and it's

11     a no-brainer.  If you had given this report to a person who was unaware

12     of the context of events, that person would never interpret the report

13     like that.

14             General Krstic is talking based on his knowledge as to what was

15     going on with these people, and I don't have that knowledge, so based on

16     your questions which take the facts of this report out of context,

17     General Krstic is giving his answers because he is led to believe that

18     this is a reference to prisoners of war.  He is not shown this next

19     paragraph where I say I offered the enemy commander to separate civilians

20     and he insists that everyone be let go.  So this context shows clearly

21     I'm not talking about prisoners of war.  How would I be letting them go

22     if somebody brought them from the Drina Corps or the Main Staff and they

23     are guarding them?

24        Q.   You will agree that the Zvornik Brigade were guarding prisoners

25     in Pilica on 14, 15, 16 July?

Page 32224

 1        A.   Well, we established here during the trial that much.  I didn't

 2     know that at the time, nor did Dragan Obrenovic.  And you know how they

 3     treated those prisoner, they brought them water and bread.

 4        Q.   If we could just clear up the Radinovic issue, General, let me

 5     just hand you that book and we may have something in e-court that -- no,

 6     we don't, but if you can just -- is that the book we are talking about or

 7     a photocopy of it?

 8        A.   I talked about this book and you talked about another book.  And

 9     I was right, he reviewed this book, not the one you mentioned.

10        Q.   And how do we know that he reviewed that book?

11        A.   It says so in the credits.

12        Q.   All right.  And what is the name of that book so we can clear

13     that up?

14        A.   "Foundations of the Defence Doctrine of Republika Srpska."

15        Q.   And that was your choice to have him review your book, I take it?

16        A.   The publisher of this book was the institute for geopolitical

17     studies and one of their associates was Professor Radinovic.  It was the

18     publisher's idea to let him review the book because he was their

19     associate.

20        Q.   The author would have a say in that as well, though, wouldn't

21     they, wouldn't you, General?

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   You did approve General Radinovic reviewing your book?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Now, let's go to the briefly, to the

Page 32225

 1     Eileen Gilleece report.  You've talked a bit about that already.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if you could go to B/C/S page 4.  Sorry,

 3     7D 1154.  Page 4 in the English, and page 4 in the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And this is where Ms. Gilleece writes down that you told rumours

 5     were rampant among Pandurevic's troops.  It was also being said that

 6     Naser Oric was headed towards Pandurevic's position.  That rumour created

 7     a huge panic amongst Pandurevic's troops.  Men were very afraid of

 8     Naser Oric.  At the time, Oric was some type of legend of unbelievable

 9     capabilities.  It was hard to keep the men focused since the rumour of

10     Naser Oric coming paralyzed many with fear.  The point of the conflict

11     was Selo Baljkovica.  Pandurevic arrived there and the conflict

12     continued."

13             Now, when Mr. Haynes asked you about that in a nice short

14     question:

15             "What about the forces of Naser Oric coming towards Srebrenica?"

16     He is referring to the Gilleece report.  And your answer is on page

17     31279:

18             "A.  Well, I don't know where that note came from.  There was no

19     movement towards Srebrenica of the Muslim forces.

20             "Q.  Did you say anything like that?

21             "A.  "Well, I don't know how I could say anything like that if

22     there was no information of that kind then, and we've established

23     throughout this trial that none of that happened.  It wasn't like that."

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, the first document I'd like to go to to ask

25     you some questions about that is 65 ter number 201.

Page 32226

 1        Q.   And we see as this comes up that this is from the Drina Corps

 2     command, dated 15 July, looks like it's in the morning, about 0800 hours.

 3     We know you are probably in Krivace about then, or you are Krivace at

 4     that time or the area of Krivace.  And can you tell us what this

 5     Drina Corps command 4th Radio Reconnaissance Platoon is?

 6        A.   That's what the reconnaissance platoon did, the platoon that

 7     intercepted and jammed enemy communications.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Well, you can see that they are reporting that:

 9             "At 0630 hours, Naser Oric together with Doktor and part of the

10     Turkish forces who have set from the Tuzla area to run the blockade of

11     the Srebrenica Turks, reported from the village of Krizevici at the road

12     between Karakaj and Crni Vrh.  This is apparently only part of the forces

13     who are on their way to meet with the Srebrenica people.  According to

14     our estimate, the main body of the Srebrenica Muslim troop is situated in

15     the region of Velja Glava (Gornja Kamenica)."

16             So this resembles the summary that Eileen Gilleece said she got

17     from you, doesn't it?

18        A.   No, I said that these were false Muslim communications.

19     Naser Oric had not moved.  He was somewhere in the Kalesija and Tuzla

20     area.  They simply took radio stations and talked to each other,

21     pretending they had made an advance far behind Serb lines.  Whereas in

22     fact there had been no movements on their side.

23        Q.   Well, in response to Mr. Haynes' question about that very

24     paragraph identifying all the information about Naser Oric and your

25     troops panicking about it, we've heard what you said:

Page 32227

 1             "Well, I don't know how I could say anything like that.  There

 2     was no communication of that kind then and we've established throughout

 3     this trial none of that happened.  It wasn't like that."

 4             So do you wish to take that back and now acknowledge that you did

 5     tell Eileen Gilleece at least part of what is in here?

 6        A.   I'm not taking anything back.  Quite simply there was no actual

 7     movement.  This was deception playing on the situation.  That's what I

 8     meant when I was answering Mr. Haynes.

 9             As for Naser Oric, I didn't fall for the way Mrs. Gilleece

10     represented him.  I did not really admire the enemy in that way.  She did

11     some research and made inquiries and maybe heard something from other

12     witnesses and based what she wrote on their evidence.

13        Q.   So when she says:  "Rumours were rampant among Pandurevic's

14     troops.  And it was also being said that Naser Oric was heading towards

15     Pandurevic's position."  So you did tell her that it was also being said

16     that Naser Oric was heading towards Pandurevic's position?  You told her

17     that, I take it?

18        A.   Well, I probably said there had been rumours and stories but

19     there was no actual movement.  Those are two different things.

20        Q.   General, did you or did you not tell Eileen Gilleece that it was

21     being said that Naser Oric was headed towards Pandurevic's position?

22        A.   I was probably talking about the fact that these games were being

23     played on radio communications making believe that Naser Oric had started

24     to move towards our positions.  I didn't say he actually moved.

25        Q.   So you did talk to her about Naser Oric and him coming in to the

Page 32228

 1     situation here?

 2        A.   He was mentioned in the context that I explained.  He was not

 3     involved in the situation on the ground.

 4        Q.   General, from your direct testimony, it's clearly communicated

 5     that you believe Gilleece made that up?  At least that's a fair

 6     interpretation.  You may clarify that if you'd like.  So having read what

 7     Ms. Gilleece said, are you now acknowledging that those subjects that

 8     she's talking about are subjects you talked to her about.  I can read it

 9     again:

10             "That rumour created a huge panic among Pandurevic's troops."

11             Did you talk to her about that?

12        A.   You can read to me the answer I gave Mr. Haynes to this question.

13        Q.   "Q.  What about the forces of Naser Oric coming towards

14     Srebrenica?

15             "A.  Well I don't know where that note came from.  There was no

16     movement towards Srebrenica of the Muslim forces.

17             "Q.  Did you say anything like that?

18             "A.  Well, I don't know how I could say anything like that.  If

19     there was no information on that kind then, and we've established

20     throughout this trial that none of that happened.  It wasn't like that."

21             You said there's no information about Naser Oric.

22             MR. HAYNES:  And the words you put earlier was "communication"

23     which was completely misleading.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He can go on making obstructive and derogatory

25     objections but I don't think it's getting him anywhere.

Page 32229

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's continue or have the break now.  It's --

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's break time.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  25 minutes.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's proceed, Mr. McCloskey.  I had interrupted

 7     you, rather, Mr. Haynes had, but then I said let's have the break now.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We are back on track.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  So you are authorised to go back to where you were,

10     and continue, proceed from there.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   All right.  General, let's see if we can help resolve this issue

13     about how accurate Eileen Gilleece may have been.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's to 65 ter 1173D.

15        Q.   And of course we are on the topic of whether or not she was

16     correct when she was telling you that -- or that you were telling her

17     that, "It was also being said that Oric was headed towards Pandurevic's

18     position," there was rumours and panic among your troops, that kind of

19     thing.  And we can see from this intercept, which I think you've talked

20     about this before and you've acknowledged you are in this, that your men

21     are telling you on the morning of 15th, when you are at Krivace --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is it okay now?  Okay.  Thank you.  What was the

23     problem exactly, Mr. Borovcanin?

24             THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN: [Interpretation] We were not receiving

25     any interpretation.  The interpretation actually began just now.

Page 32230

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then you have a right to have the interpretation

 2     repeated.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can say --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you could repeat, briefly, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   General, just to remind everybody where we were, we were

 7     discussing the comments that Eileen Gilleece said that you had told her

 8     in her note where she says that you had told her that there was rumours

 9     about Naser Oric coming in and that your troops were panicking, that

10     section of her report, and you recall what you said to Mr. Haynes.

11             Now, if we could look at this intercept on the issue of whether

12     or not you said anything to Ms. Gilleece on this issue.  We see from this

13     intercept that you've already acknowledged, I believe, between your unit

14     and Zvornik, I can't tell if it's Mijatovic or Milosevic you are talking

15     to, but they tell you after you say:

16             "This morning and when was the dawn?  Now, give me an overview,

17     mate."

18             "Well, it's the same, same situation.  Only the latest piece of

19     information says that Naser came in from Krizevici with a group and is

20     now heading to meet the ones coming from Srebrenica.  That is the latest

21     piece of information.  It is 10 minutes old."

22             Now, sir, my question is not whether or not this was

23     misinformation and silliness sent over the airways to trick you by the

24     Muslims.  My question is, you had this information about Naser Oric and

25     you told it to Eileen Gilleece as she para-phrased it in her brief

Page 32231

 1     report; correct?

 2        A.   I spoke about the rumours that existed that Naser Oric was in

 3     Krizevici.  At the time of this conversation I was not sure whether he

 4     was in Krizevici or not, but by the time I reached Zvornik I knew for a

 5     fact that he wasn't and that there hadn't been any movements on his part.

 6     This is what I was telling Ms. Gilleece, that there were rumours and

 7     those attempts to throw a spanner in our works.  But in my answer to what

 8     Mr. Haynes asked me, I said that there were no movements of the Muslim

 9     forces towards Srebrenica, and that is true.  And with all due respect to

10     the lady who was interpreting at the time, it all looked like that movie,

11     "Lost in Translation."

12        Q.   So now you are acknowledging that the information regarding Oric

13     heading towards your position and that the rumours creating a panic is

14     actually correct?

15        A.   I'm not acknowledging anything, I'm not denying anything, I'm

16     merely confirming what I said earlier.  I said did say that there were

17     those attempts to launch those ruses stating that Naser Oric was moving

18     his troops, but there were no movements by his troops.

19        Q.   Did you tell her that the rumour had created a huge panic among

20     your troops?

21        A.   No, I didn't speak about any panic or fear that this engendered.

22     If you look at this intercept you can see I'm asking for a report from

23     the 4th, 6th and 7th Battalions because this piece of information that

24     was relayed to me by someone probably was obtained from this

25     reconnaissance platoon.  It didn't come from the field.  I did not get

Page 32232

 1     panicky or make any panic in those conversations.

 2        Q.   It's not talking about you General, it's talking about your

 3     troops.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 200.  It's a very short --

 5     another report from the Drina Corps intercept group, dated 15 July.

 6        Q.   And as we can see similar to the last one:

 7             "The Turks are led by Oric came across our troops in the area of

 8     Planinica and Crni Vrh.  Naser is bragging about having crushed our

 9     forces in the area and is moving on in order to cause havoc.  We estimate

10     the situation to be very serious.  Not excluding the possibility of an

11     attack on Zvornik."

12             Now, this is coming to the IKM, attention to the commander.  Now,

13     you are not there yet, as we acknowledge, but the intercept guys are

14     taking this seriously.  They are mentioning about causing -- Oric is

15     coming to cause havoc and they're saying it's even a possibility of an

16     attack on Zvornik.  This would have to be something that, if communicated

17     to the command and the troops, may very well cause the kind of panic that

18     Ms. Gilleece is talking about that you told her; correct?

19        A.   Well, look at the time-line of events here.  This is the 15th of

20     July, 805.  The commander of the radio reconnaissance platoon submits a

21     report to the addressees who are listed here.  This report is not given

22     to Dragan Obrenovic who was in Crni Vrh sector on the 15th, and he knew

23     that there was no Naser Oric there.  The soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade

24     knew that Naser Oric was not there.  And there is no panic in their ranks

25     because of that knowledge.

Page 32233

 1             Krstic, at the forward command post, receives this report.  The

 2     commander of the radio reconnaissance platoon cannot make a proper

 3     assessment of any possible consequences of any such action on the part of

 4     the enemy.  This is the job of the commander, and in light of this

 5     situation or this information Krstic was in a dilemma.  He didn't want to

 6     really -- he was not sure whether he should authorise my return there,

 7     but you can see that none of the superior officers actually says anything

 8     about any panic among the soldiers.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 170.

10        Q.   Another easy one-page report from this time Colonel

11     Predrag Jocic.  Can you remind us who that is?

12        A.   He is an officer from the operations organ of the Drina Corps.

13        Q.   And as you can see this is dated 15 July at about 0950 hours,

14     entitled, "Very urgent information on the Muslim formations."  And he

15     says:

16             "On the basis of information gathered and electronic

17     reconnaissance," so that's two forms of information, electronic

18     reconnaissance and information gathered, "we have found out that

19     Naser Oric has broken through our position, reached Krizevici area and is

20     heading towards Planinci to join up with the group from Srebrenica and to

21     wreak havoc in Zvornik."  Sounds like he has been referring to the

22     previous report.  And it goes on and says:

23             "I have ordered all men to be mobilised in Zvornik and head to

24     the defence position.  I suggest that Pandurevic and Legenda return to

25     their zones of responsibility and to take measures to repair the

Page 32234

 1     consequences, if any, and to prevent a catastrophe.  Semso Muminovic has

 2     requested that Vinko Pandurevic contact him on the frequency.  We think

 3     that this concerns either surrendering or an attack.  If Vinko is not

 4     there, it means that Legenda is not there either."

 5             You'll agree with me, Mr. Jocic is talking about a catastrophe,

 6     he said he's ordered all men in Zvornik to be mobilised.  How is it that

 7     a colonel in the operations branch can issue an order like that?

 8        A.   Look, this piece of information reached the forward command post

 9     of the Drina Corps at 950.  It was drafted on the basis of the report,

10     the previous report which was drafted at 805.  Krstic had received it

11     before Mr. Jocic had, two hours earlier, and he was well familiar with

12     all this, and Mr. Jocic now presents his own assessment and informs

13     Krstic about it, and Krstic had already made a decision that I should be

14     brought back.  So this information did not really have an impact on the

15     situation.

16             Now, as he ordered that everybody in the Zvornik should be

17     mobilised, I don't know that, I don't know who authorised him to do that.

18     I'm not sure, or perhaps this is simply what he said to the operations

19     duty officer to do it.  We saw in the work log that at one point

20     Mr. Galic, on the 15th, sent a request to the corps for the R Battalion

21     to be called, up to be mobilised.

22        Q.   So did you speak to General Krstic at the time about this -- this

23     Oric issue?

24        A.   We looked at all the reports, as far as I know, from the

25     reconnaissance, radio reconnaissance platoon.  I talked to the officers

Page 32235

 1     from the Zvornik Brigade and Mr. Krstic and I were not in any state of

 2     panic, and we did not consider the situation to be as it had been painted

 3     by the radio reconnaissance platoon.

 4        Q.   But you did discuss the issues of Oric coming in with Krstic at

 5     the time?

 6        A.   I don't recall mentioning Mr. Oric, but I do remember that we

 7     discussed the new tactical and combat situation in the area of

 8     responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade, and it was my proposal that I

 9     should also go back.

10        Q.   All right.  Give me one second.  Now, staying with on the Eileen

11     Gilleece report just a little longer, I just want to read you back a

12     couple of your answers on this issue related to what you told her about

13     the pig farm.  And Mr. Haynes asked you on page 31286, in quotes:

14             "'Pandurevic advised that Rick Butler refers to a handwritten

15     report dated 15 July 1992, and the report refers to a pig farm near the

16     4th Battalion, the soldiers of the Muslim 28th Division seized the

17     command post and killed pigs.'  Did you say anything of the sort to

18     Eileen Gilleece?

19             "A.  We did have the Butler report in front of us.  I referred to

20     statements in that report and I did not say at all that the pig farm is

21     mentioned in the Butler report, because it isn't.  But did I mention it

22     in connection with the next paragraph as an example how to explain the

23     term 'asanacija.'

24             "Q.  Why were you giving the example of 'asanacija'?

25             "A.  I was saying that 'asanacija' is everything it really is in

Page 32236

 1     military terms and then I remember that there really had been pigs there

 2     and to illustrate the point I said that 'asanacija,' or sanitization of

 3     the terrain, included removing carcasses and corpses if any were found on

 4     the ground.

 5             "Q.  But were you seeking to explain the report of 15 July 1995?

 6             "A.  I think I commented on Mr. Butler's conclusion that I felt

 7     were erroneous.  I felt that then and I still do now.

 8             "Q.  But were you saying that the use of the word 'asanacija' is

 9     in the report of the 15th July, 1995, referred to an obligation to clear

10     away pig carcasses?

11             "A.  No, I didn't say that that was an obligation.  I simply gave

12     that as an example to illustrate what the term 'asanacija' means."

13             Now, I think you have said that to me as well.  So you stand by

14     that; is that correct?  Those questions and answers?

15        A.   Yes, I stand by the answers that you've just read to me.

16        Q.   Okay.  Then it goes on for a bit and Mr. Haynes at page 31288

17     says:

18             "Q.  The example you gave of pig carcasses having to be removed,

19     when did that occur within the war?

20             "A.  Well, it's true here that we analysed the report of the

21     15th of July, 1995, which was mentioned in the Butler report but that

22     report makes no mention of pigs and the removal of their carcasses, but I

23     gave examples that it happened earlier on in 1992.  I remember the

24     village of Jeremici at Snagovo which in 1992, in December, was looted and

25     set fire to and the pigs slaughtered, killed, and so I mentioned that

Page 32237

 1     example.  And I also spoke about 'asanacija' which had been conducted in

 2     Gornje Kamenica and Snagovo areas in 1993."

 3             So what was this thing in 1992 where pigs were killed and buried?

 4     Do you stand by that?  Did that really happen?

 5        A.   Well, it did happen and we carried out the asanation [as

 6     interpreted] in 1992 and 1993 and that is why there is mention of 1992 in

 7     this report.  But this is all a bit mixed up and now it's being linked

 8     with the 15th of July, 1995.  But I tried to use this an example and this

 9     is why it is written like that.  And in the report of the 15th of July,

10     1995, the interim combat reports makes no mention of pig carcasses or

11     their removal and we've read it through.

12        Q.   Are so were any pigs killed in July 1995?

13        A.   Pigs did get killed because this battalion had a minifarm close

14     to the headquarters.  Some were killed in the shelling and some pigs were

15     killed when the 28th Division troops passed by that area a little while

16     later.

17        Q.   Where did this happen?

18        A.   In Baljkovica.

19        Q.   In the 4th Battalion area?

20        A.   4th Battalion, that's right.

21        Q.   And the Zvornik cleaned up those pigs and buried them?

22        A.   Well, over the course of the following days they were removed and

23     buried, surely.

24        Q.   And you are aware that in a proofing note we asked Obrenovic to

25     look at the Gilleece reference about burying pigs and he told us that

Page 32238

 1     pigs were killed in the 4th Battalion but it was the 16th, not the 15th;

 2     right?  Do you remember seeing that proofing note?

 3        A.   I remember.  And in my interim combat report of the 15th, there

 4     is no mention of any pigs who had been killed by Obrenovic, and I cannot

 5     really claim with any certainty that no pigs were killed on the 15th

 6     because people were in shelters, in trenches and pigs were out in the

 7     open so some of them may have been killed 15th and 16th.

 8        Q.   The pigs that were killed in Jeremici in 1992, what battalion was

 9     that at the time?

10        A.   Well, that was no battalion, no battalions were there.  It

11     happened after the disbanding of the 6th Battalion that was defending

12     Kamenica after it was defeated and after Glodjansko Brdo fell, that area

13     was empty, the Serb villages were defenceless, and then the Muslim forces

14     entered the village of Jeremici and the village of Grujici, killing some

15     women, some pigs and looting the houses and taking the loot away with

16     them.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to Ms. Gilleece's report, 7D 1154.

18             MR. HAYNES:  Just out of caution, do we not need to redact

19     reference to a proofing note?  No.  Okay.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do we have a problem with that?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No we can just go on.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's proceed.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   All right.  You've got that in front of you, General.  It's

25     page 5 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S.  And this is where you

Page 32239

 1     say, according to Eileen Gilleece:

 2             "Pandurevic advised that Rick Butler refers to a handwritten

 3     report dated the 15th of July, 1992, at 2000 hours.  That report refers

 4     to a pig farm near the 4th Battalion.  The soldiers of the Muslim

 5     28th Division seized the command post and killed pigs."

 6             How does Eileen Gilleece know that the pig farm that you are

 7     talking about is the 4th Battalion unless you told her?

 8        A.   Well, pigs were mentioned in both locations, but here it is

 9     presented as if it was contained in my interim combat report of the 15th.

10     It wasn't.  I can't now give you an explanation why some things were

11     noted down as they were.

12        Q.   General, when you met with Eileen Gilleece, you told her, as you

13     acknowledged, that Rick Butler talked about your 15th interim, and you

14     disagreed with it.  And you went on to tell her that "asanacija" in that

15     report had to do with pigs that were killed at the 4th Battalion.  That's

16     what you did.  And that's what is in here.  Eileen Gilleece doesn't know

17     the 4th Battalion from Adam.  She's never dealt with that case, as it

18     came out clearly.  How does she know to say the 4th Battalion pigs unless

19     you said it to her just like this?

20        A.   I mentioned pigs from the 4th Battalion by way of explanation of

21     what "asanacija" might refer to, and then she wrote down that this is

22     mentioned in the interim combat report.  I know that she wrote this

23     report and we don't have any other trace apart from this report of hers,

24     whether it was in any way doctored or in any way changed or manipulated.

25     She didn't know about the 4th Battalion, but many other people did.

Page 32240

 1        Q.   You think Eileen Gilleece made up the 4th Battalion and just

 2     threw it in there?

 3        A.   No, not her, Mr. McCloskey.

 4        Q.   Who?

 5        A.   Well, I'm saying that I mentioned the 4th Battalion.

 6        Q.   With the pigs?

 7        A.   I mentioned the pigs in that area as an example of what

 8     "asanacija" means.

 9        Q.   You've got to pick your pigs, General.  It's either the 1992 pigs

10     or the 4th Battalion 1995 pigs; it makes a very big difference.  Which is

11     it?

12        A.   Both, Mr. McCloskey.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 2754.

15        Q.   This is a document, dated 15 July, related to the 1st Krajina

16     Corps and it is related to a unit that General Miletic is ordering to go

17     assist you, your brigade on the 15th; right?

18        A.   It says here, Dispatching a unit, an infantry company to assist

19     the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade report and it is signed by

20     General Miletic.

21        Q.   I'm asking you now, General, to go back into your memory.  Did

22     you get a unit from the Krajina Corps that was under your command from

23     the 16th?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.

25        Q.   All right.  And I apologise, but I need to go back to one other

Page 32241

 1     point in the Gilleece report.  7D 1154.  Page 4 in the B/C/S, General;

 2     page 3 in the English.  States:

 3             "On the 15th of July, Pandurevic received information from the

 4     Chief of Staff that a number of POWs were put in the Zvornik municipality

 5     by the Supreme Command and the corps."

 6             That's a very clear statement from Eileen Gilleece, wouldn't you

 7     agree with me?

 8        A.   I wouldn't agree if that's her statement.  I said to her that

 9     Obrenovic had informed me on the 16th about all matters pertaining to

10     POWs.

11        Q.   So she has got her dates mixed up?

12        A.   Probably.  Unless someone corrected her.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter number 377.

14        Q.   This is just a short section of the duty officer notebook.  I

15     don't intend to spend a lot of time in the notebook, General, so we can

16     get you the original if need be.  It's from the 16th of July.  It's

17     page 149 in the B/C/S and 149 in the English.  We've seen this before,

18     I'm sure.  And this is says:

19             "A message from Zlatar that Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic must go to

20     Vinko Pandurevic in the field at 1640 hours.  Message through the

21     1st Battalion that Popovic must report to the duty officer so he can be

22     sent on a task by Zlatar."

23             So why would they want to send a message through the

24     1st Battalion to find Popovic?  Does that mean that they think that's

25     where he is at this time, up in the 1st Battalion somewhere?

Page 32242

 1        A.   The person who made this entry into the workbook probably knew

 2     where Popovic was and how to reach him.

 3        Q.   And you'll agree that -- we've seen the evidence and we don't

 4     need to go through all of it, but that clearly on the 16th, the corps and

 5     the Main Staff wanted to know what was going on with the column, and they

 6     eventually ended up asking for Popovic to go see you about that; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  Before that it was requested that a commanding officer from

 8     the brigade should go, and after that Popovic.

 9        Q.   Why would they turn to Popovic?

10        A.   Well, probably to verify the information.  Maybe they didn't

11     believe the reports from the Zvornik Brigade.

12             MR McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 1225B; B/C/S 1225C.

13        Q.   And I think we've seen this as well.  This is a 16 July intercept

14     at 1643 hours.  It seems that it could be related to the duty officer

15     notebook entry, but it notes that:

16             X says:  "Is my Popovic with you there somewhere?"

17             Y:  "No, he's not."

18             X says:  "What about Drago Nikolic?"

19        A.   Sorry, I think you gave me the wrong copy.

20        Q.   Let's try the screen.

21        A.   It's the same thing on the screen.

22        Q.   Maybe the handwritten version is correct.

23        A.   It's the same thing again.

24        Q.   There's 1643 and it starts with "alo" and I see Popovic so I

25     think we've got the correct one on the screen now.

Page 32243

 1        A.   Yes, I see it now.  Towards the bottom.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And the part I was reading says:

 3             "Is my Popovic with you there somewhere?

 4             "No, he's not.

 5             "What about Drago Nikolic.

 6             "He is not either.

 7             "Listen, the boss wants one of them to go to Vinko.

 8             "Yes.

 9             "To see what is going on there."

10             So they want either Popovic or Drago Nikolic, they --

11     specifically the security guys.  Does that suggest to you they are

12     concerned you might be doing something you are not supposed to be doing?

13        A.   It's possible to interpret it that way too.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 1201A.

15        Q.   And to help you find that, General, it's the one that starts at

16     2116 hours.  It's C in the B/C/S and it begins:  "Hello,

17     Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic speaking."

18             And this is much later that evening on the 16th of July,

19     2116 hours.  I want to go over this with you a bit.  We all recall that

20     you said you never saw Popovic at the forward command post on the 16th,

21     despite him being ordered to go see you.

22             And P says:  "Hello Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic speaking.

23             "Rasic here.  Can I help you?

24             "Rale, yes."

25             Rasic from the Drina Corps's nickname is Rale; right?

Page 32244

 1        A.   I didn't know a single Rasic from the Drina Corps.  I knew a man

 2     called Rakic.  But a possible nickname for Rasic could be Rale.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Then Rale says:  "Yes."

 4             And Popovic says:  "I was just up there."

 5             And Rasic says:  "Yes."

 6             And Popovic says:  "I was with the boss personally."

 7             Rasic says:  "Yes."

 8             Popovic says:  "Here where I am, you know where I am?"

 9             Rasic says:  "I know."

10             "Well, you got this interim report."

11             What interim report do you think he is talking about on the

12     evening of 16 July?

13        A.   It's possibly the interim combat report of the same day, the

14     16th of July.

15        Q.   So when it says, Well, you got his interim report, he is

16     referring to Vinko Pandurevic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And so when we go up a few lines earlier when we see, "I was with

19     the boss personally," he was speaking of the boss of the Zvornik Brigade,

20     wasn't he?

21        A.   Yes, probably.

22        Q.   And so Popovic says:  "Well, you got his interim report.

23             And then Rasic says:  "All of it.

24             Popovic says:  "It's all just like he wrote ... I was there on

25     the spot and saw for myself he had received some numbers ... well, that's

Page 32245

 1     not even important ... I'll come there tomorrow so tell the General ...

 2     I've finished the job."

 3             When Popovic says it's just like he wrote, "he received some

 4     numbers," the numbers in your 16 interim report were the numbers of your

 5     casualty figures; correct?

 6        A.   Well, there are not many numbers.  It said around 10 wounded

 7     and -- around 10 killed and several wounded.  That's probably what he

 8     means.

 9        Q.   "I'll come there tomorrow so tell the General.  I've finished the

10     job."

11             So it's now 16 July at 9.16 p.m.  What job was Popovic doing that

12     day, besides being ordered to go see you at the forward command post at

13     Baljkovica?

14        A.   He says here that they should inform the General that he had

15     finished the job, meaning the job given him by the General obviously.

16        Q.   What was that job in your view?  You were there in command at the

17     time and you've studied the record?

18        A.   No.  At that time I was at the forward command post in

19     Baljkovica, that is Delici, while Mr. Popovic was doing the job given him

20     by Krstic.  Ordered to him by Krstic.  He was in the area of Zvornik.  I

21     can only suppose which particular duties he meant, but I have no direct

22     knowledge.

23        Q.   Okay.  "You finished?

24             "I've finished everything.

25             "Good.

Page 32246

 1             "I'll come there tomorrow when I'm sure that it's all been taken

 2     care of, you know.

 3             "Good.

 4             Popovic:  "After I bring a transport from here.

 5             "Right."

 6             Then he goes on to say:

 7             "Well, in general, there weren't any major problems but up there,

 8     there were horrible problems and that thing the commander sent, it was

 9     just the right thing."

10             Rale says:  "Good."

11             Popovic says:  "Just the thing ... horrible ... it was horrible."

12             Now, you know the record well in this case and you know that the

13     first interpretation of this intercept was that the horrible thing that

14     happened was Branjevo farm and the murders there, but you now know that

15     Mr. Butler, as he has testified here, upon reviewing other intercepts, is

16     saying -- is interpreting this, as the Prosecution does, that the

17     horrible problems that Popovic is referring to, that you were having to

18     deal with, as you've mentioned in your 16th report, were the combat

19     problems with the 28th Division coming from your rear and the 2nd Corps

20     from the front, so that Popovic here is defending you to the corps, that

21     the problems that you had to face were horrible and that the thing that

22     was sent, the reinforcements to help you out with the combat situation

23     were just the right thing.

24             So you've got Vujadin Popovic in a situation where you know you

25     were in trouble for opening the corridor he is defending you.  He is

Page 32247

 1     saying it was horrible, basically it needed to be done, you sent the

 2     commander reinforcements and that was the thing that solved it.  Is that

 3     the way you interpret it?

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Haynes.

 5             MR. HAYNES:  That's a pretty substantial compound question.  Can

 6     it be broken down or there's going to be a very long answer following, I

 7     suspect.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  But I mean, we have been proceeding along those

 9     lines.  I think Mr. Pandurevic can handle it.  If you prefer the question

10     to be broken down --

11             MR. HAYNES:  No, I'm sure he can --

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  But let's see if he can answer the question,

13     however compound it may be, and it is to an extent, or whether you wish

14     the question to be broken down in several questions.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's a fair synopsis of the Butler

16     testimony and I think the General understands it, but he can tell us.

17     It's also a fair synopsis of the Prosecution's position.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Pandurevic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've already gotten

20     used to Mr. McCloskey's questions and these introductions do not

21     generally have to do much with the question that follows.  But I can

22     answer.  Mr. Popovic did not meet with me on the 16th.  I did not report

23     to him about anything.  It's possible that he had read the interim combat

24     report at the command and made his conclusions on that basis or maybe he

25     talked to somebody else, I don't know, but he didn't talk to me.  The

Page 32248

 1     problems up there were exactly as I described them in the

 2     examination-in-chief and earlier during the cross-examination.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   Meaning the horrible combat problems and the casualties; correct?

 5        A.   Well, I talked in my report exclusively about combat-related

 6     problems in Baljkovica.

 7        Q.   So you agree with me, then?

 8        A.   From this intercept I see that Mr. Popovic is talking about

 9     problems concerning Baljkovica and his source of information is unknown

10     to me.  I agree with you to the extent that my interim combat report

11     reflects the problems in Baljkovica and those problems were real.

12        Q.   And so when Popovic is talking to the corps command and says, "I

13     was there on the spot.  I saw it for myself," he is confirming the

14     reality of the problems and defending you in your situation with the

15     corps, that must have -- don't you agree with me?

16        A.   From what we read here we can draw that conclusion, if that's

17     only based on my combat report, otherwise he wasn't able to conclude

18     anything else.  I don't know if he got any information from someone else.

19     As to whether he is defending me or not, maybe he was convinced that the

20     report was completely truthful and he was defending it and interpreting

21     it as such to the corps command.

22        Q.   I suggest, General, that Colonel Popovic was with you at

23     Baljkovica.  He saw the horrible casualties, and he agreed with you that

24     opening the corridor was the correct thing to do in that horrible

25     situation and he was passing that on to the corps, when he could have

Page 32249

 1     said, oh, we open the corridor and let the Muslims through and ended your

 2     career right there; right?

 3        A.   You see, he did not meet up with me in Baljkovica that evening.

 4     This intercept is dated 2116 hours, the corridor had been opened before

 5     1600 hours, and if he had been up there when it got dark, he would have

 6     been unable to see anything.  The 28th Division wasn't passing through

 7     anymore.  And you see this question about PV 168 when he said that

 8     Popovic wasn't there, that things were horrible up there, and there

 9     was -- it was a life risk.  Now, I don't see what your suggestion is,

10     what you are trying to put to me.

11        Q.   Let's go on.  I think it was clear.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 1224A.  B/C/S 1224C.

13        Q.   This is 17 July.  Between Popovic and Y, and Y was not audible.

14     And Popovic says:

15             "Hello, it's Popovic ... boss ... everything's okay.  The job is

16     done ... everything's okay ... everything's been brought to an end, no

17     problems."

18             Who was Popovic's direct boss or commander?

19        A.   General Krstic.

20        Q.   He goes on and says:

21             "I'm here at the place ... I'm here at the place where I was

22     before, you know ... I'm at the base ... at the base, the base."

23             That should be the Zvornik Brigade, shouldn't it?

24        A.   He says here, "where I was before," and his base was the

25     Drina Corps.  Whether he means the Zvornik Brigade or the Drina Corps, I

Page 32250

 1     don't know.  But since he talks about the location where he was before,

 2     then Krstic must have known where he had been before.  You can read it in

 3     two different ways.

 4        Q.   And then it goes on:

 5             "Can I just take a little break, take a little break, take a

 6     shower and then I'll think again later ... basically, that all gets an

 7     A ... an A... the grade is an A, everything's okay ... that's it, bye,

 8     take care."

 9             Now, let me show you Exhibit 65 ter number 3009.  It may take

10     awhile to come out on the computer, but this is an aerial image of the

11     Branjevo farm, dated 17 July, and the computer is not the best version of

12     that.  But on 17 July in the afternoon, you are the commander of the

13     Zvornik Brigade in the Zvornik Brigade zone of responsibility; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And this job of where we see bodies scattered all over the

16     grounds and we see an excavator digging a big trench, piles of earth,

17     this is the job that Colonel Popovic was engaged in on the 17th of July,

18     isn't it, burying those bodies?

19        A.   In that conversation he informs his boss, General Krstic, that he

20     had finished the job.  The two of them know with one hundred per cent

21     certainty what job they were doing.  If you link up these documents the

22     way you are doing that, then it could refer to this job.

23        Q.   And who is the commander of the excavator driver?  If he is a

24     Zvornik Brigade engineer, who is his commander?

25        A.   For the engineer of the Zvornik Brigade, the first immediate

Page 32251

 1     superior is Dragan Obrenovic, and then the next one in line am I.

 2        Q.   And the soldiers that were guarding the prisoners at the

 3     Kula school, the Zvornik Brigade soldiers that we've heard about that

 4     were guarding them there on the 16th of July as they were being bused off

 5     to Branjevo, who -- you were their commander that day too, weren't you?

 6        A.   Yes, I am their commander, too.  As far as I understood their

 7     testimony, they were there by the schools, but I'm not sure they were by

 8     the schools on the day of the execution.  And one thing is certain, they

 9     were not there on my orders or the orders of Dragan Obrenovic.

10        Q.   General, it's the Prosecution's position that in order to commit

11     mass murder on this kind of scale, there's three essential ingredients:

12     Detention of those prisoners, transportation to the execution sites of

13     those prisoners, and execution of those prisoners.  It's the

14     Prosecution's position that all three of them are essential and no one is

15     greater in importance than the other for those that are organising and

16     facilitating this.  Do you agree?  Or are the people that are shooting in

17     some way more guilty than the commanders of those that are guarding and

18     transporting?

19        A.   Yes, we have here two levels, one is a general level, and the

20     other is the level of specific things and facts.  You listed all the

21     things that were needed for the process to take place, and in the second

22     part of your question you focused on one specific part of that process.

23     I agree it's necessary for these people to be taken prisoner by someone,

24     to bring them to the place of the execution, and to perform the

25     execution.

Page 32252

 1             The transport was not handled by the Zvornik Brigade.  The

 2     transport of these people from the place of imprisonment to the place of

 3     execution was not handled by the Zvornik Brigade.  The execution was not

 4     carried out by the Zvornik Brigade.  Therefore, the people who were

 5     there, and I don't know on whose orders, it's not crystal clear to me,

 6     even for those who were indeed there, their commander cannot be

 7     responsible and the commander is me.

 8        Q.   General, if you were informed by Dragan Obrenovic that on the

 9     15th of July, when you first saw him, that it had become the

10     responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade to assist in the mass execution and

11     detention of thousands of prisoners, and that he had authorised the

12     brigade to take part in this, what would your duty have been upon

13     receiving that information from Dragan Obrenovic, which is what the

14     position of the Prosecution is?

15        A.   Let's just clarify whether Dragan Obrenovic gave approval to the

16     Zvornik Brigade to take part in this --

17        Q.   General, that's not the question.  We've gone through this; we

18     don't need to continue to go through it.  This is a hypothetical

19     question.  We know your position on that; you know my position on it.

20     This is a hypothetical question and I don't want to go through that

21     again.

22             MR. HAYNES:  Well, if you ask a hypothetical question, you can

23     get a hypothetical answer, and he is entitled to theorize as much as he

24     wants.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We fully agree with Mr. Haynes.

Page 32253

 1     Mr. Pandurevic, if you can provide an answer, provide it the way you

 2     think you can and then we see afterwards.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  This

 4     question makes the assertion that Dragan Obrenovic make the approval for

 5     the Zvornik Brigade to take part in the execution which is something that

 6     from the evidence hereto in my vision of this evidence is not correct.

 7     He agreed with five policemen and Drago Nikolic at a time when he didn't

 8     know that executions would follow.

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted), and I would prevent their participation in that job.  I would

14     find out who was doing that job and why and I would have informed my

15     superiors.

16             You know that at the dome in Pilica people were killed inside in

17     the hall, whereas those at the school who were guarded, as the

18     Prosecution claims, by soldiers from the 1st Battalion, lived there for

19     one or two days.  They had been given bread and water in those two days.

20     If it hadn't been for those guards, they would have been killed just as

21     those people at the dome.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   If you said nothing to Dragan Obrenovic after he informed you and

24     the murder operation continued with the assistance of the Zvornik Brigade

25     with your knowledge, would you bear any responsibility in your mind?

Page 32254

 1        A.   Had members of the Zvornik Brigade participated in those events

 2     with my knowledge and approval, I would bear responsibility.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 686.  I don't have

 4     it in B/C/S in front of me, but it's a very brief statement in

 5     Mr. Butler's report, one of his revised narratives that I know you've

 6     read and studied.

 7        Q.   And it says:

 8             "This is, however, one reference to prisoners in the custody of

 9     the 7th Battalion" --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry, could you wait.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry.  Page 86 in the English.  Sorry, I don't

12     have the page in the B/C/S.  But it's a very simple statement and we'll

13     get to the document that it's referring to.

14        Q.   He says:

15             "In examining the vehicle log sheet for a TAM 2001 vehicle,

16     licence M5342, it notes that on both 16 and 17 July that a vehicle was

17     active in transport of prisoners between Stari Selo and Crni Vrh ," and

18     another illegible location.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Page 90 in the B/C/S, but what I really want you

20     to see and ask you about is 65 ter 295 which is that vehicle log that

21     Mr. Butler has cited.

22        Q.   And as he said, and we can see from the log, this is a vehicle

23     log from the Zvornik Brigade for a TAM 2001.  And if we go to the -- it's

24     operated by Milenko Majstorovic and Milenko Mitrovic.  And it is -- I

25     take you to the 16th of July, it says:  "500 through 2200."  We go to the

Page 32255

 1     section that says:  "Transport of food, ammunition, prisoners, and

 2     other."  And the number of people there is 1 plus 10.

 3             So this is a record of your unit, your brigade transporting

 4     prisoners from Stari Selo, Crni Vrh or to Stari Selo Papraca, when you

 5     were there present in command and I think we all know that these areas

 6     Stari Selo and Crni Vrh were in the area where the column was.  Can you

 7     tell us about Papraca?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Mr. McCloskey.  I don't think we are

 9     following in terms of evidence.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The translation is 0069-4771 REV.  It's page 3.

11             MR. HAYNES:  Page 3 in P 295?  There are 604 pages in P 295.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is a revised translation, so we had to give

13     it another number.  The translation has a number but it's out of the

14     original.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  We have it on the screen now.  I just want the

16     confirmation from you that it's the right one.  I'm referring to the

17     English version.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Page 227 in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   And so, General, if you've had a chance to take a look at this

20     and listen to my preface, do you agree with roughly what I said as I went

21     through the translation?  Just trying to repeat what was on the document.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And Stari Selo, Crni Vrh, Papraca, can you just roughly tell us

24     where those places are?

25        A.   Crni Vrh, I think we all know where it is.  It's on the

Page 32256

 1     Zvornik-Tuzla road.  It's about 20 kilometres away from Zvornik.  Papraca

 2     is on the same road but in the area of Caparde, you turn west into the

 3     area of Sekovici.

 4        Q.   What do you know about this indication that prisoners were taken

 5     and transported by this vehicle?

 6        A.   The first time I saw this was in the documents that you gave to

 7     me for the cross-examination.  Among the 604 documents, I did not come

 8     across this document.  Perhaps I just didn't notice it.  I now see that

 9     on the 16th, there was a transport of prisoners, ammunition, food, and so

10     on.  The same thing goes for the 17th.  So it's difficult to determine

11     where the points of origin were and what the destinations were, but it is

12     my assumption and it's a possible conclusion based on this that those

13     were some prisoners who had been captured either by the 7th Battalion

14     soldiers or people from the Osmace technical group which was part of the

15     Sekovici Brigade.  So that this vehicle from the 7th Battalion was used

16     to France port those people from Papraca because Papraca was in the area

17     of defence of the Sekovici Brigade and it has nothing to do with the

18     Zvornik Brigade.  At that time I was not aware of any transport of

19     prisoners.  This is the first time that I see this.

20        Q.   Well, that's why I started with Mr. Butler's report.  This has

21     been around for a long time.  It was specifically referenced in

22     Mr. Butler's report.  But you know nothing about these prisoners and what

23     happened to them?

24        A.   No, I don't.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 336.

Page 32257

 1        Q.   This is a daily combat report, looking at page 1 of the English

 2     and page 1 of the B/C/S.  From the 19th of July, in your name, and I

 3     would like you to go back to the -- as best as you can recall the

 4     testimony, one person testified in this trial, the other person whose

 5     interview came in in a recorded way, 92 bis, that were the survivors of

 6     an execution on or about the 18th of July.  One of the people, you will

 7     recall, was shot in the back and rolled down a hill and survived.  The

 8     other person was identified as a soldier and kept and later sent to

 9     Batkovic.  And it's our view, General, that this report under your name

10     is reporting on that incident:

11             "During the search operation, two Muslim soldiers were captured

12     and 13 eliminated."

13             Now, you've acknowledged that the 16th Krajina unit, which is

14     mentioned in this report and were searching the area, was under your

15     command.  They were under your command on the 18th and 19th of July;

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.

18        Q.   And if they murdered this group of individuals, you should have

19     known about it?

20        A.   If they had been killed in combat, as is indicated in the report,

21     well, you can see that I knew about it because I received the report to

22     that effects.  And I don't know why anyone would shoot somebody and leave

23     somebody else alive.  If you are doing a search operation in high grass,

24     in rugged terrain, in wooded areas, you have those creeks, it is very

25     difficult to know whether somebody was shot in combat or killed after

Page 32258

 1     capturing.  But it was -- there was a clear order in effect that all

 2     prisoners should be brought to Standard alive.  And that's what happened.

 3     They were brought there alive.

 4        Q.   You may recall that the two people I'm speaking of, PW 139, and

 5     PW 119, both reported that the unit that got them got on the radio at the

 6     time of the capture.  Wouldn't it be fair to conclude that the unit got

 7     on the radio to seek and inform their command what they were doing and

 8     seek authorisation, or merely inform?

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16        Q.   So you don't believe the Muslim that said he was -- his group was

17     executed and he was shot and left for dead?

18        A.   If fire was opened in the course of a search operation and in the

19     course of combat, that's quite logical.  I will not now go into

20     questioning the truth of his evidence, but I do know that nobody had any

21     orders that the prisoners should be killed.  But in the course of search

22     operation or combat, it is quite in line with military rules to open

23     fire.

24        Q.   You are not suggesting that the account of the survivor of his

25     colleagues being shot down after capture has anything to do with combat

Page 32259

 1     are you?  Because that's what it sounds like, General?

 2        A.   Well, as is indicated in the report, they could have been killed

 3     in combat.  I have no knowledge to the contrary.  And the witnesses who

 4     testified about the people from Krajina, they were shown various insignia

 5     and they were unable to recognise any of them.  And I don't know who

 6     mentioned this term, the people from Krajina.  I don't know.  How come

 7     that they were killed by the people from Krajina and not from somebody --

 8     not by somebody from the Zvornik Brigade?

 9        Q.   General, you heard the testimony of the MUP officer from Ugljevik

10     and the survivor of that incident that occurred around that same time in

11     the Snagovo area where others were shot after being captured?

12        A.   Yes, I do recall that testimony.

13        Q.   Do you have any reason to believe that didn't happen the way the

14     witness has testified it did.  I mean, fundamentally, that Muslims were

15     captured and murdered?

16        A.   As the same thing as I said for your previous question.  This is

17     the evidence of that person.  It was not verified through the testimony

18     of any other MUP personnel who were with him, to the best of my

19     recollection.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I'm told it's break time and if I

21     could just make a -- I've been in contact with my team, Mr. Vanderpuye,

22     who we are -- we are endeavouring to get in this motion for rebuttal

23     re-opening today, but we would really like to have a chance to review the

24     general's testimony and can you give us until Monday to do that?

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Permission granted.  But not beyond that.  Yes,

Page 32260

 1     Mr. Bourgon.

 2             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  In light of the fact

 3     that motion will be filed later, this -- we have been discussing on this

 4     side, of course we haven't seen the motion yet, but we anticipate that we

 5     will need the 14 days normal as forecasted or as set in the rules to

 6     respond to this motion.  Of course, we haven't seen the motion but it is

 7     likely we will need the 14 days.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you for providing that information.

 9     Obviously we will be the ones to decide.  Mr. Haynes.

10             MR. HAYNES:  Certainly given the comments that this motion is

11     going to be principally aimed at my case, I will need 14 days.

12             THE COURT:  We'll come to that and we'll decide how much you

13     really need when we have seen the motion ourselves.  We'll have a

14     25-minute break starting from now.  Thank you.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Now, General, I'd like to go to 23 July and just briefly talk

20     about an intercept I think you've talked about already.  It is

21     65 ter 1309A; in B/C/S 1309C.  And this is from 23 July, 0800 hours, and

22     this is a conversation that you are involved in and I believe you told us

23     who you were speaking to; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.  With Colonel Cerovic.

25        Q.   And you acknowledge that this was about the patients that were at

Page 32261

 1     the Standard barracks at this time; correct?

 2        A.   The prisoners and the wounded.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And the wounded that we are talking about, you knew that

 4     those wounded were from Srebrenica; correct?

 5        A.   I knew that the wounded had been transferred from the

 6     Zvornik hospital and I was able to assume that they were from Srebrenica

 7     because they really were from Srebrenica.

 8        Q.   Well, and did you know that they had come from the Milici area,

 9     the Milici hospital?

10        A.   No, I don't remember the details.  I know that I was told that

11     they were present there.  Now, whether they had been in Milici, well, I

12     don't remember that.

13        Q.   And you will agree that in your discussion with Cerovic you leave

14     it open on what is going to happen to these wounded and that we have to

15     go to the next intercept when someone calls back the brigade and leaves a

16     message; correct?

17        A.   Yes, but you should know, well, you know that as has been shown

18     here, that as of the 20th I demanded the exchanges and I talked about the

19     exchanges and I mentioned Lisaca.  This is not just a discussion about

20     the exchange of the wounded but also of the prisoners, and the final

21     decision was not made as to what should be done with them, as seen by the

22     conversation that followed.

23        Q.   And by the 23rd of July, you were fully aware that

24     Vujadin Popovic had been involved in the murder operation of the

25     prisoners?

Page 32262

 1        A.   I knew at the time that he was there and that he was involved in

 2     those activities.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to that next intercept which is five

 4     minutes later, according to intercept.  English 65 ter 1310A.  And C in

 5     the B/C/S.  It's very short, it should be -- well, it's at 805 hours so

 6     it's going to be on the -- probably the third page of the B/C/S.  Yes,

 7     B/C/S page 3.

 8        Q.   So we see five minutes later that the Muslims say that the

 9     participant in the previous conversation called and asked for Vinko

10     again, but Ljubo answered and somebody told Ljubo to pass on to Vinko:

11             "What Vinko and I were just talking about will arrive at your

12     place by 1700.  The boss, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic will arrive and say

13     what needs to be done regarding the work we talked about."

14             So you will agree that this was a call that came in right after

15     your conversation with Cerovic where Cerovic is telling you that

16     Lieutenant Popovic will come by at 1700 hours and deal with your problem

17     with the wounded and the prisoners; correct?

18        A.   Yes, I agree that this conversation followed after the one at

19     8.00.

20        Q.   And what I just -- the rest of what I said, you agree with that

21     too?

22        A.   Well, you interpreted the contents of the conversation.

23        Q.   Yes, and I asked you if you agreed with my interpretation.

24        A.   Well, I agree because this was a job well done on your part.

25        Q.   Now, let's go to the duty officer notebook of the same day.

Page 32263

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter number 377.  And I don't think --

 2     it's just another very brief reference so I think we can just look at it

 3     on the screen.  It's B/C/S page 177.  But I can also just -- so you can

 4     get a look at it now.  English 177.  B/C/S 177.

 5        Q.   And this is the reference, around the same time in the morning,

 6     0830 hours, that the duty officer has written down that

 7     Lieutenant-Colonel Cerovic relayed a message for the commander that

 8     Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic will arrive by 1700 hours.  You will agree

 9     with me again, I think, that this is the actual notation of the last

10     brief intercept confirming that it was Lieutenant-Colonel Cerovic that

11     called and said that Popovic will arrive at 1700 hours?

12        A.   Yes, the essence of the conversation was relayed, but the time

13     is 8.30 so it's a 25-minute lag.

14        Q.   And this is noted as "relayed a message for the commander."  So

15     that's message that they've -- the duty officer has specifically noted

16     down in the book that is a message to go to you; correct?

17        A.   It doesn't say that it was relayed, but Lieutenant-Colonel

18     Cerovic made this report for the commander and it was obvious that I was

19     not there in the command, and then Ljubo received the message because I

20     went out to do something.

21        Q.   Do you remember that or are you just assuming that?

22        A.   I don't remember Bojanovic relaying this message to me

23     personally, but I know that this had to be dealt with with Cerovic and as

24     soon as he received any new information he was to relay to the command.

25     This is the order that I gave to Obrenovic to stay in contact with the

Page 32264

 1     corps command and to deal with this issue as soon as possible.

 2        Q.   General, my question was:  Do you remember leaving the brigade

 3     command post?  Clearly you could have just been down in the kitchen or in

 4     the bathroom or any other place and this brief message given to the duty

 5     officer who would be able to contact you shortly, so that is my question.

 6     Do you remember actually leaving?  You've not mentioned that before.

 7        A.   Well, I merely added now that since I did not speak to Cerovic

 8     directly, had I been in the office I would have spoken to him, so I must

 9     have been there somewhere, perhaps in the apartment or maybe in front of

10     the command building, I don't know.  But for sure when Ljubo Bojanovic

11     received the message at 0830, I was not there because I would have

12     received it, the message, had I been there.

13        Q.   Well, there's a lot of time between 0830 and 1700 hours.  And

14     it's clear from your testimony that this was an important issue for you

15     that day, so I'm sure that this was passed on to you, that Popovic was

16     comic at 1700 hours to take care of this problem, wasn't it?

17        A.   Well, I can just repeat for the third time, I don't recall

18     Ljubo relaying this message to me.  I know what I ordered Obrenovic after

19     the briefing that was held on that day.

20        Q.   Would you have been concerned, General, that Lieutenant-Colonel

21     Popovic was to come take over prisoners from you based on what he was up

22     to not but a few days before this?

23        A.   Well, it was all the same to me who would deal with the problem.

24     What was important to me was for this problem to be solved.  I'd been

25     telling you that I did not see Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic on that day in

Page 32265

 1     the Zvornik Brigade command.

 2        Q.   I am sure you understand that you have a duty not to turn over

 3     prisoners that will be killed by someone?

 4        A.   Well, I agree with you there, if I know for a fact that they are

 5     to be killed.

 6        Q.   You knew that for the previous few days, 14, 15, 16 July,

 7     thousands of Muslims had been killed, and that had been organised in part

 8     by Popovic who is coming to take prisoners from you.  So my question,

 9     General, certainly you realised that had you not --

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we have the reference that "Popovic

12     who is coming to take prisoners from you," where it is stated?

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it that that is the Prosecution's position.

14     Mr. McCloskey, perhaps you would like to comment on that.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I believe the General and I agreed that that was

16     the content of the phone conversation and that the message was clear that

17     Popovic was coming to deal with prisoners and wounded.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, it is not in this intercept.  Just to convey

20     what to --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Right, but that is an argument.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- have to be done.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  That is an argument, Mr. Zivanovic.  It has been

24     put to the witness and the witness has made a statement on what he thinks

25     that was all about.  Then it's up to you later on to make submissions

Page 32266

 1     should you feel the need to.  So let's proceed.

 2             Mr. McCloskey, my recollection is that you were interrupted

 3     before finishing your question.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think I've got it.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you go to line 13, 14 of the previous page, you

 6     will understand what I mean.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   Yes, General, you would have realised on the 23rd of July that

 9     had you prevented Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic from taking custody of those

10     prisoners, you would have been in big trouble with General Krstic and

11     General Mladic, not to mention Radovan Karadzic.  You agree?

12        A.   Well, I don't know whether Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic came to

13     take those people in or whether he actually did that, but I can't see how

14     you can treat me in the same way after 20 days of my testimony here in

15     public about my private life in front of all the accused who are looking

16     at me and their Defence counsel who can now cross-examine me.  Unlike

17     some others who testified as protected witnesses without the presence of

18     the other accused.  I don't want to testify against Popovic or in favour

19     of Popovic.  I'm telling you what I know and what I can conclude on the

20     basis of those documents.

21        Q.   General, what do you think would have happened to you if you had

22     refused to release those prisoners to Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic?  I'm

23     not saying from Popovic, I'm saying from his command.

24        A.   Well, I can speculate now.  I did not hand them over to Popovic.

25     Obrenovic told me about that and I personally charged him with taking

Page 32267

 1     care of their safety and security, that those people had been transported

 2     to Batkovic and he did not mention Popovic.  Now, whether somebody went

 3     to Batkovic and picked them up, whether they were -- they took a detour

 4     in the course of the transportation, I don't know that.

 5        Q.   I'll try again, General, and I can tell you that the ICMP records

 6     in this case, and I'll get a 65 ter number, have showed us that for the

 7     14 named patients that were transferred from Milici to Zvornik, one died

 8     at the Zvornik hospital, 12 are still missing, and one has been

 9     identified from the Liplja secondary grave.  So it's clear these people

10     were taken from your command and murdered.

11             So my question is, had you prevented Popovic from taking them,

12     knowing what you knew by this time, what would have happened to your

13     career?

14        A.   I agree with what you say about what happened to those people

15     based on the findings of the ICMP, but this is a hypothetical question.

16     What would have happened to my career had I prevented Popovic from taking

17     those people.  First of all, if an order had come from the corps for me

18     to hand those people over for their transfer to Batkovic, there would

19     have been no reason to prevent anyone from taking them, including

20     Popovic.

21        Q.   Well, you did receive an order of sorts from Cerovic that Popovic

22     would be coming to take care of them.  You are saying you had no duty

23     whatsoever, once you received that order you were duty-bound to give

24     these prisoners to the organiser of the mass murders?

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 32268

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It's again a misstatement.  It does not follow

 2     from the intercepts shown to the witness.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Do you wish to comment?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I disagree.  This is the same topic we've been

 5     talking about.  I have a right to ask him these questions and these are

 6     the -- we've mostly agreed on the facts and this is the position of the

 7     Prosecution.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Again, we'll look at this as a statement from

11     Mr. McCloskey that this is the position of the Prosecution that is being

12     put to the witness.  So the witness can answer the question which he

13     should -- he should then proceed.

14             So, Mr. Pandurevic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I issued

16     an order for those people to be protected physically and to be given

17     medical treatment.  I asked from the corps a solution or an order for

18     their transfer.  I remember that I don't recall that Ljubo Bojanovic

19     explicitly told me that Colonel Popovic would come, and now Mr. McCloskey

20     is probably labouring on the basis of the hypothesis that a person who

21     had already killed can't wait to kill more people.

22             At the time I did not think like that.  I thought it was logical

23     that at my request and intervention of the corps those people would be

24     transferred to Bijeljina.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 32269

 1        Q.   First of all, General, I'm not suggesting that Lieutenant-Colonel

 2     Popovic can't wait to kill people.  Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic was

 3     following his orders.  And my question to you is:  What would happen to

 4     you if you had refused to give him those prisoners?

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think he has answered that.

 6             MR. HAYNES:  I think he has answered that four times now.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think he has answered it.  He is telling you that

 8     if his understanding was that the request for the transfer of these

 9     prisoners was for exchange purposes or to be taken to Bijeljina or

10     et cetera, then to him there would have been absolutely no obstacle.  He

11     would have had to obey the order.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can go on, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter 379.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  Mr. Zivanovic.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we get exhibit about the

17     identification of the victim from Liplja.  Mr. McCloskey told us that

18     we'll get it.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm trying to get used to being cross-examined

21     during cross-examination but I will get that and we'll get that as and as

22     we can.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, and let's proceed in the meantime.  It's

24     something that can be verified in the due course.  If it's not correct

25     that part of the question and answer will just fall apart.  That's all.

Page 32270

 1     So let's continue.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   General, this Exhibit 65 ter 379, B/C/S page 115, English 115,

 4     this is a record of the duty officer notebook.  I think you've already

 5     acknowledged it and where they write down the two telegram numbers of the

 6     fuel that was coming in under Mladic's orders, the fuel that we've seen

 7     on other exhibits that were to come to Trbic.  So I'm sure you don't

 8     disagree with me that that came to the duty officer and it was directed

 9     for Trbic and we all agree that that was for the reburial operation;

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  Then the question arises is, where were you on September

13     15th and you've talked about that.  Can you remind us?  I know you've

14     thought about that for your testimony and can you remind us where you

15     said you were on September 15th?

16        A.   Well, it seems that there is always a one-day discrepancy.  This

17     is a telegram that arrived on the 14th of September and I was in the

18     village of Velagici at the intersection of the roads between Bosanski

19     Petrovac and Kljuc.  It's about 500 kilometres away from Zvornik if you

20     took the roads that were in existence at the time.

21        Q.   Near Drvar; right?

22        A.   Well, not really that close to Drvar.  Maybe about 70 kilometres.

23        Q.   And let me remind you what --

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go into private session.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's do that.

Page 32271

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 32272

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we are now in open session.  Thank you.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   General, to help refresh your recollection, this is the duty

11     officer notebook of 16 --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Should be page 119 in the English.  Could we flip

13     forward.  And 119 in the B/C/S, I'm told.  Yeah, that's it.

14        Q.   Where we can see there is a notation about 16 September in the

15     original and in the translation.  And down, as we get closer to the

16     bottom it says:

17             "Vinko Pandurevic came back at 1130 hours."

18             So were you back in the brigade, like this says, on the 16th?

19        A.   Yes, on the 16th I was back in the office.  I'm still the

20     commander of the 2nd Drina Brigade at that time.

21        Q.   All right.  Let me show you a document, 7D 770.  Page 1 and 2 IN

22     the English translation.  It is a -- one of those vehicle logs that we

23     have become so familiar with.  And we can look at the first page that is

24     up there.  We see that this is the Nissan I believe we've talked about

25     before, and we see Bogdan Pandurevic as a driver.  Now let's flip over to

Page 32273

 1     the trip log or the next page, page 2.  And if we can blow that up, we

 2     can see that there's various trips that almost always have to do with

 3     Drvar.  Is that your vehicle that went to the Krajina?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   With you?  That was your vehicle?

 6        A.   I was in the vehicle.  That is the commander's vehicle.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And so let's go to page 3 in this.  That gets us to

 8     15 September.  And since you've got the original, General, we weren't

 9     able to make out -- on 15 September, we see Sanski Most and Zvornik.  Can

10     you see the first location there?  Can you make that out?

11        A.   Yes, yes, I can see it.  It's Velagici-Sanski Most-Zvornik.

12        Q.   Does that reflect where you were on the 15th with that vehicle?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So you got back to Zvornik at what time on the 15th?

15        A.   On the 15th, I did not return to Zvornik at all.

16        Q.   Well, this says Zvornik.  As you said that one village,

17     Sanski Most, Zvornik?

18        A.   He wrote down the route we travelled on the day.  We did not

19     arrive in Zvornik on the 15th.

20        Q.   Well, it says, "15 Zvornik."  So you disagree with that?

21        A.   Well, on the 15th the trip began.  That was the Velagici-Sanski

22     Most-Zvornik route and it ended in Zvornik on the 16th, as we saw a

23     little while ago.

24        Q.   Well, I won't argue with you, we see what this thing says.  Then

25     we go to the next, 16 September, and it's your vehicle, your driver, and

Page 32274

 1     presumably you going from Zvornik to Vlasenica; correct?

 2        A.   No, we didn't.  When I arrived in Zvornik on the 16th, I talked

 3     to Krstic and there was an agreement that I should go to Vlasenica that

 4     day to report to him about what the brigade had been doing and that is

 5     why the driver wrote down this route.  If you look at the mileage, you

 6     will see that the 100 kilometres it would take me to travel from Zvornik

 7     to Vlasenica and back are not factored in.  So I didn't go to Vlasenica

 8     that day; if you do the calculation, you'll see that.

 9        Q.   So this indication that the command vehicle went from Zvornik to

10     Vlasenica is wrong, as is Obrenovic's version?

11        A.   No, Obrenovic probably saw this trip log and on the basis of

12     that, he believed that I had gone there.  And the driver always has to

13     have the vehicle ready before heading out anywhere in order for to us to

14     be able to head out on time.  On that day I did not travel.  You can see

15     that for the 17th the work notebook says -- it says that the commander

16     did not go to Vlasenica but should just report by phone, and I didn't

17     even go to Vlasenica on the 17th either.

18        Q.   General Krstic is the kind of commander that wants a report, he

19     wants it when you are back and he want it face to face; correct?

20        A.   Well, please find me a commander who doesn't like to receive

21     reports.  Why is that something that's specific for Krstic?  And we

22     didn't see each other.  Well, a little while ago you showed a document

23     where it say that is the 2nd Drina Brigade, headed by Colonel Vinko

24     Pandurevic, came back at 1630 from Drvar on the 16th, and then you simply

25     disregard that, claiming that I arrived in Zvornik on the 15th.  So what

Page 32275

 1     document do you renounce and what document do you accept?  Could you

 2     please tell me that.

 3        Q.   General, it's a simple question.  And I think you will agree with

 4     me, right, General Krstic is the kind of guy that wants to be -- wants to

 5     have a report and he wants to have it in front of him?

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

 7             MR. HAYNES:  This is a very tiring experience, particularly if

 8     the questions are asked two or three times all the time.  That's exactly

 9     the same question that was asked and answered at lines 18 to 25.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He didn't answer it.

12             MR. HAYNES:  Yes, he did.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He said, Show me a commander that doesn't.  I'm

14     just try together get a clear answer from him then he gave me a speech

15     and demanded several questions.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's refrain from arguing.  Let's -- let me

17     consult with my colleagues, please.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  We don't consider the previous question answered so

20     we are authorising the question, and General Pandurevic will now proceed

21     to answer it.

22             If you wish to repeat your question, Mr. McCloskey, please do so.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Simple question.  He is the kind of commander that wants a report

25     back and to his face when you get back and he wants it accurate; correct?

Page 32276

 1        A.   Just like any commander wants to receive a report, General Krstic

 2     wanted the same and he received one from me by telephone.

 3        Q.   And would you have needed to know from General Krstic that there

 4     had been a decision made to unbury thousands of Muslim men in your area

 5     and move them through down-town Zvornik in trucks to put them in

 6     scattered multiple mass graves, wouldn't you have needed to know that,

 7     General, when you got back?

 8        A.   If I had needed to know this, I would have needed to know

 9     something before that, namely that Drihovnica [phoen] should be

10     transferred.  How would I have known that something needed to be moved if

11     I didn't know they existed.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I would have needed

13     to know before that that prisoners existed and should be transferred,

14     which I didn't know.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   General, the prisoners are dead.  Let's not go back there.

17             MR. HAYNES:  I'm told we should probably try --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's a mistake.

19             MR. HAYNES:  I think the General is about to correct it.  I'm

20     told that the last answer did not convey the sense of what he said.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  We had an interpreter's correction.  And I don't

22     know if you got that translated to you in your language.  But I think the

23     easiest, more practical way to go about it is for you to correct whatever

24     you feel needs correction, Mr. Pandurevic.  Go ahead.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The interpreter

Page 32277

 1     made a mistake in the correction.  I didn't mention the prisoners, which

 2     I see in the transcript.  I said in order to express a need, I would have

 3     had to be aware of that need as a rational being.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   General, you knew there were at least 3.000 dead Muslims buried

 6     in mass graves in your area in September 1995.  You will agree with me on

 7     that?

 8        A.   I knew that people had been killed and buried before September.

 9     But somehow you are trying to link each of my arrivals to Zvornik to

10     prisoners, both those alive and those executed.  When I returned from

11     Krajina, you know the kind of theatre of war I had been to.  Which

12     commander -- which commander's first thought would have been, Do I need

13     information about the reburial?  It wasn't my first thought.

14        Q.   Okay.  So the Muslims, the dead Muslims are not your first

15     thought.  I understand that.  But if they are going to get dug up and

16     moved with hundreds of tonnes of rubble and dirt and god only knows what

17     and moved through down-town Zvornik with trucks and men and engineering

18     equipment and MPs to guard them, don't you need to know that, that that

19     is going to be happening right from the centre of your brigade from

20     Pilica down to Cancari?  Don't you need to know that, General?

21        A.   Mr. McCloskey, you have seen the travel document from Obrenovic's

22     driver showing that he was in Vlasenica on the 15th and that he learned

23     on the 15th from General Krstic what the fuel would be used for.  The

24     fuel that they received on the 14th.  He didn't tell me anything about it

25     because it wasn't anything that concerned the Zvornik Brigade.  And you

Page 32278

 1     know that I did not take command over the Zvornik Brigade until the

 2     26th September.  I left Zvornik on the 18th.  You know when the digging

 3     up started and when it finished.  All of that happened without my

 4     knowledge and without my participation.

 5        Q.   I understand that's your position and I asked the question twice

 6     already.  Would you have wanted to know that this was going on in your

 7     backyard so that you could able to deal with potential repercussions such

 8     as the community being in an uproar?

 9        A.   I understand that question like this.  If somebody had barged

10     into the yard of my house and looted something without my knowledge, how

11     would I have known whether it happened or not when I returned from Budva,

12     from Montenegro, I found out that there was a transfer of bodies and that

13     lorries did pass through Zvornik.

14        Q.   And it was still going on when you came back; right?

15        A.   I don't recall that it was going on.  I asked Mr. Jokic whether

16     the engineering unit, our engineering unit or he or anybody was involved

17     in that business.  He said no.  He said he had seen Autotransport

18     company's lorries carrying bodies.  He said the stench was horrific and

19     it was the talk of the town.  I also discussed it with Mr. Mijo

20     Dragutinovic who told me the same thing.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We should correct that to Mr. Jokic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Instead of Jocic.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   So General, you would know whether this was still going on or not

25     after you got back.  Was it or was it not still going on?

Page 32279

 1        A.   I don't know, Jokic informed me that he was aware this had been

 2     happening.  No one from the engineering company was involved, and I no

 3     longer saw any of those trucks.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter number 4294.

 5        Q.   This is an intercept dated 23 September, so that is a Saturday,

 6     I'm told.  You are still on your vacation at that point; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And if this is a Saturday, when do you get back, what day?

 9        A.   On the 25th I travelled from Zvornik to Budva.  I spent the day

10     travelling and I arrived in Zvornik in the afternoon of that day.

11        Q.   So you went from Budva to Zvornik?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   All right.  And we can see this intercept which I'm not sure you

14     talked about before.  I don't think you did.  It's one that we identified

15     in hearing your testimony, I believe.  And this is between General Krstic

16     and a Captain Petrovic.  And who is Captain Petrovic, as far as you know?

17        A.   It's probably Milisav Petrovic who was chief of communications at

18     the staff of the Zvornik Brigade at the time.

19        Q.   All right.  So we see the conversation.

20             Krstic:  "Hello, where is your commander."

21             "He hasn't come back from the field yet.

22             "Let me speak so the officer on duty.

23             "Just a second.

24             "Hello.

25             "Krstic speaking.

Page 32280

 1             "Captain Petrovic here.  What can I do for you General, sir?

 2             "When will the captain be back, Petrovic?"

 3             Can you just read that, I don't know if that's a -- the Muslims

 4     made that mistake or we did.  Can you read after:  "Captain Petrovic

 5     here, what can I do for you General, sir."  Krstic saying:  "When will

 6     the captain be back."  Is that what it said:  "When will the captain be

 7     back?"

 8        A.   No, it says:  "Petrovic, when is your commander coming back."

 9     Not captain.

10        Q.   That's what I thought.  Thank you, General.

11        A.   Do you have the handwritten version?

12        Q.   Somewhere.  We'll check it out, but I think it gets cleared up

13     down the way.  As it goes on:

14             "Well, we are expecting him any minute now.  He has gone to the

15     field to check on one of the units."

16             And then we go to:  "When is Vinko back?"

17             "Vinko?  He should be here on Monday."

18             "Monday?"

19             "Yes, Monday evening."

20             Krstic says:  "Are you in contact with him?"

21             Then it's:  "Hello."

22             "Are you in contact with him?"

23             "Well, yes, we could get in contact with him but" -- sounds like

24     they are not real anxious to interrupt you on your holiday.

25        A.   Well, Petrovic says, Well, we have.  I'm not sure that he

Page 32281

 1     personally knew for sure that he could get in touch with me.  He supposed

 2     that I had left a contact number.

 3        Q.   And then Krstic says:  "Listen, make sure that he, listen ...

 4             "Yes?"

 5             "... That he comes to me Monday at 7.00."

 6             Petrovic:  "Okay.  I got it.  He should come to you Monday at 7."

 7             Krstic:  "Yes."

 8             Petrovic:  "No problem?"

 9             "Bye."

10             So we see from this intercept that Krstic wants you to come by

11     and to see him, Krstic, on Monday, the 25th of September; correct?

12        A.   Yes, he wanted that.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And go into private session just briefly.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go to private session, please.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 32282

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We are in open session, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Now, General, I want to -- you remember testifying about a

10     document.  I think your lawyer made an effort to get the original because

11     it had a stamp on it.  And you had testified that you had signed this

12     document but that you had not signed it on the 25th when it was dated,

13     but that you had signed it over the stamp on the 26th when you came back

14     into the office; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And as you know, we've found another document that is a copy of

17     that document, both of them having stamps.  And if I can let you see both

18     of them, and as counsel knows, we have been trying to find a time for the

19     General to take a look and study these documents so that he can think

20     about it before answering and I'm not sure we've really ever found a

21     time, with security going back and forth, to give the General the time,

22     maybe we can take a few minutes, and it's almost a break, but I'm

23     definitely going to finish, I think, within the first hour of Monday.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you for that.  Mr. Haynes.

25             MR. HAYNES:  We haven't.  I know Mr. McCloskey wouldn't have

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 1     minded me doing it but it seemed to me it was something I probably needed

 2     your leave to do, to discuss a document he was going to be shown in

 3     evidence.  So we haven't done that.  If you want to break now and have

 4     him look at it over the weekend, that might be a sensible suggestion.  I

 5     think everybody is getting quite tired today.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  I would go for that.  My colleagues?  Okay.  Yes,

 7     okay.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Our only problem is we need to have him look at

 9     it very close by as an evidentiary matter.

10             MR. HAYNES:  Well, it always takes him a few minutes to be moved

11     from there so it can be put in front of him on that table now and

12     Ms. Stewart and Mr. McCloskey can sit be close by.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That would be fine and then he wouldn't be late.

14     If we could just adjourn now and we'll give him the documents.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Happy with that, Mr. Haynes?

16             MR. HAYNES:  Absolutely.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  So we will do it that way.  We stand adjourned

18     until Monday, 9.00 in the morning.  Thank you.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.37 p.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of March,

21                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.