Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32776

 1                           Wednesday, 25 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Pandurevic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good morning.

 7             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, ma'am.

11             I welcome, everybody.  And good morning, everybody.  I notice the

12     absence of accused Pandurevic.  We have already received the waiver, so

13     Mr. Sarapa, I take it we can proceed.

14             Representation.  Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Elderkin for the

15     Prosecution.  Absent from the Defence teams, I notice Mr. Ostojic,

16     Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Petrusic, Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Haynes.

17             Before we start, a motion for protected measures for the witness

18     was filed yesterday evening, I take it.  Are you all aware of it?

19     Because it was filed at a late hour.  Yes, you are.  Are there any

20     objections?

21             Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

23             No objections from our side, but I'd just like to introduce our

24     new legal assistant, Ms. Negosava Smiljanic.

25             Thank you.

Page 32777

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  I'm glad to see that you and other

 2     Defence teams are taking on board additional staff now, as we approach a

 3     critical moment.  I think it's very useful.  Welcome, madam.

 4             Any objections to the granting of protective measures.

 5             We hear none.  Motion granted.  So this guy will have face and

 6     voice distortion, plus pseudonym.  Otherwise, the hearing will be in

 7     public session, except of course for the critical parts, like his

 8     identity and so on.

 9             Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

10             JUDGE KWON:  The pseudonym being ...

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  175, it should be, yes.  It should be 175.

12             Okay.  Can we bring in the witness.  We keep the curtains down

13     until he comes in, and then we'll put them up again.

14             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And he will need a caution, Mr. President.  Good

16     morning.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right, thank you.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, sir.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to welcome

22     you.

23             You are about to start giving evidence.  Before you do so, you

24     are required by our Rules to enter a solemn declaration that you will be

25     testifying the truth.  You are being handed the text now.  Please read it

Page 32778

 1     out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-175

 5                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, sir.  Please make yourself comfortable.

 7             As I said, you are about to start giving evidence.  Before you do

 8     so, however, there are a couple of things.

 9             You can start pulling the curtains up again, please.

10             Before you start giving evidence, however, I would like to inform

11     you of the following:  First, that upon your request, the Prosecution

12     asked for some protective measures to be put in place to protect your

13     identity.  We asked the various Defence teams this morning if they had

14     any objection to such protective measures, and they have all agreed that

15     we should grant the protective measures, or, rather, they have not

16     objected to the granting, so we have put in place the following

17     protective measures:  Pseudonym, in other words, you will be referred to

18     not by your name, but by a number; and then facial and voice distortion.

19             I take it the nature of these measures have already been

20     explained to you before coming into this courtroom.  Is that right?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  And you are satisfied with this arrangement, aren't

23     you?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, basically.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then there is another thing that I need to inform

Page 32779

 1     you about, and that's in the form of an advisory, and I suggest you pay

 2     careful attention to what I'm going to tell you now.

 3             There may be questions put to you -- I'm not saying that there

 4     will, but there may be questions put to you, which if you answer

 5     truthfully, could possibly expose you to criminal proceedings; in other

 6     words, could incriminate you.  You would be incriminating yourself.  In

 7     such a case, our Rules provide for a remedy in the form of a right which

 8     you have to ask the Trial Chamber to exempt you from answering such

 9     questions.  This is not, however, an absolute rule, in the sense that we

10     can grant such exemption, but we can also refuse it after hearing what

11     you have to say.

12             If we grant the exemption, then obviously you don't answer the

13     question.  If we order you to answer such questions, then the privilege

14     that you have is in the form of an additional right; namely, that

15     whatever you say which is self-incriminatory will then not be capable of

16     being used against you.  In other words, if you say things that could

17     expose you to criminal proceedings, if there are criminal proceedings,

18     whatever you would have said would not be used in those proceedings,

19     cannot be used in those proceedings.

20             Was this explained to you before you came into the courtroom?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  And you fully understand the extent of its import?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  So having said that, I think we can proceed.

25             Mr. McCloskey will lead, will have some questions for you.  I

Page 32780

 1     assume he will then be followed by some of the Defence teams, if at all.

 2             Mr. McCloskey, you still expect one hour or, sorry, 75 minutes?

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think less than that.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, thank you.  Go ahead.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 6             Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, everyone.

 7                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 8        Q.   Good morning, Witness.  First of all, I'm going to show you a

 9     sheet of paper.  It's our number 65 ter 4459, and can you tell us if this

10     is your name.  We don't want it out loud, but we just want to confirm

11     your identity.

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Now, if we could go into private

14     session for just a moment, a few initial questions, and then we'll go

15     into open.  And so my questions now, sir, no one will hear.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment until we get to --

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 32781

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we are in open session.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

Page 32782

 1        Q.   Is it true that you have, in questioning by the Office of the

 2     Prosecutor, been shown a vehicle log for a minivan?

 3        A.   I don't remember the picture, but I was shown a vehicle log.

 4        Q.   And did that -- looking at that vehicle log, did that help remind

 5     you of a trip you took on July 23rd, 1995?

 6        A.   In part.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell the Court, as best as you can remember, about

 8     that trip?  Who first told you you were going -- you had a specific task

 9     that day on the 23rd of July?

10        A.   That specific task, if I remember, there were two rides.  I'm not

11     exactly sure, but I was issued this task by my commander, the commander

12     of the administrative headquarters.

13        Q.   And give us his name, please.

14        A.   Momo Amovic.  That's what they called him.  I don't know if he

15     goes by another name.

16        Q.   So you were issued a task by Momo Amovic on the 23rd of July; is

17     that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So, please, sir, when you know -- when you know something, just

20     tell us.  When you're not sure, please tell us as well, but please don't

21     preface everything with you're not sure, unless that's absolutely true.

22             Now, tell us, what did Mr. Amovic tell you to do that day?

23        A.   Well, I had a previous trip to do, and when I came back outside

24     the administrative headquarters, he told me to drive some people who were

25     there by the road at that place indicated on the log.  I went and did as

Page 32783

 1     I had been told.

 2        Q.   So where did you go to get these people you referred to?

 3        A.   Somewhere down towards Tesca [phoen].

 4        Q.   And did you mention another little village?

 5        A.   Dragasevac Tesca.  That's on the same road.

 6        Q.   And where did you go in this Dragasevac area?  Pardon me for the

 7     pronunciation.

 8        A.   Dragasevac.  I went there, and he told me to take them to the

 9     battalion.  I didn't ask why or how.  I was not entitled to put

10     questions.  I turned around and went to execute the task.

11        Q.   Sir, my question is:  Where did you go in Dragasevac?

12        A.   I went from Vlasenica to Dragasevac.  They were by the road over

13     there.  I took them inside and drove them to Bisina, to Sekovici.

14        Q.   Were there any buildings by the road where you picked them up?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   What kind?

17        A.   Some houses in rubble, destroyed.  I didn't look carefully.

18        Q.   Was that a unit of men that were living in that area?

19        A.   I don't know whether they were living there or not.  I did not

20     notice any civilians there.

21        Q.   Sir, you've described that as a special unit to us.  What did you

22     mean by that?

23        A.   I don't know if it was a unit or if those were some particular

24     people.  I had never seen them there, and I had never taken such people

25     for a ride.

Page 32784

 1        Q.   Do you recall earlier describing the different ethnic make-up of

 2     those people?

 3        A.   I heard them talking.  One of them or two or three of them were

 4     Muslims, and there were a couple of Croats, as far as I could judge from

 5     their conversation.  I did not know them, so I can't tell you anything

 6     else.

 7        Q.   And how many of them got into your vehicle that day?

 8        A.   Five or six.  I did not count, because the first one who got in

 9     started to insult me.

10        Q.   And what were they wearing?

11        A.   They were masked, with caps over their heads, some fingerless

12     gloves, and they had overalls of different colours.

13        Q.   Did they have any military appearance, or were these mechanics'

14     overalls or something else?

15        A.   Well, like military fatigues, but they were all different.

16        Q.   Were any of them armed?

17        A.   The first two had weapons, but as far as the others are

18     concerned, I did not dare look at them, so I couldn't see.  But I could

19     see the first two were armed.

20        Q.   Why would you not dare look at, you know, six soldiers that you

21     picked up?

22        A.   Well, because the first one who got on broke the mirror with his

23     rifle, and he suggested, Look ahead.  And after that, I didn't dare turn

24     around.

25        Q.   So what vehicle were you driving that day that they got into?

Page 32785

 1        A.   The minibus.

 2        Q.   Was anyone else with you, besides these men?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And did you then drive to the place you were told to take them by

 5     your commander?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And where was that?

 8        A.   At first, the commander told me to go to the brigade, but then we

 9     changed direction, and I don't know whether it was the 3rd or the 4th

10     Battalion because I never asked.

11        Q.   First of all, what brigade are we talking about?

12        A.   We are talking about, I suppose, the Sekovici Brigade.

13        Q.   Sir, I think you would know the brigade, so let me ask you again.

14     What brigade are we talking about?

15        A.   Well, I don't know which battalion of theirs was up there because

16     I never inquired whether it was the 4th, the 5th, the 3rd.  I have no

17     idea which one it was.

18        Q.   I'm not asking you -- don't worry about the battalions at this

19     point.  I'm just -- the brigade we are talking about, what brigade area

20     was it?

21        A.   Supposedly the Sekovic Brigade.  How can I know?  The

22     Sekovic Brigade, presumably.

23        Q.   And you mentioned, I belive, and I don't think the interpreters

24     didn't pick it up, but a place where you were told to go.  Where were you

25     told to go by your commander?

Page 32786

 1        A.   I was to drive them to the battalion, the Sekovic Brigada,

 2     Brigade, since they changed the plan and they sent us directly to the

 3     battalion where it was.

 4        Q.   And where was that?

 5        A.   In Bisina.

 6        Q.   And when you say "they changed the plan," who is "they"?

 7        A.   One of the men who boarded the bus, when we were approaching

 8     Sekovici, he just told me, Drive to Pasina, or Bisina.  I don't know who

 9     had told him.  I then I complied, I just made a detour and drove towards

10     Pasina -- Bisina.

11        Q.   We need to get this right.  Can you -- and it's just a little

12     trouble with the translation.  What is the name of the area where you

13     went, Pasina or Bisina?

14        A.   You know what, I think it's Bisina.  I'm not a surveyor to give

15     you the exact names, but I know it's called Bisina.

16        Q.   And about what time of day was this when you were driving this

17     group to Bisina?

18        A.   Sometime around noon.  I cannot remember exactly, but I think

19     it's recorded in the log-book.

20        Q.   We'll go over the log-book briefly near the end.  I just want to

21     have you tell this before we get to that.

22             Now, where precisely did you drive to?  Can you describe to the

23     area where you stopped the car, the minivan?

24        A.   It was somewhere close to their HQ, some 200 or 300 metres, I

25     cannot tell you exactly, from it.

Page 32787

 1        Q.   Was it along the main asphalt road or somewhere else that you

 2     stopped the car?

 3        A.   No, it's up there.  It's a macadam road.

 4        Q.   So what was around the place where you stopped the minivan?

 5        A.   Along the way, I saw a building being built.  On the right-hand

 6     side, there was water, and maybe a kilometre or two ahead I stopped.

 7     There was a man there, an elderly man.  He didn't have all his teeth, and

 8     his clothes were rather shabby.  He stopped us.  They all alighted.  He

 9     told me to turn around and wait over there where they were building this

10     barracks and where this water was.  They got out.  I turned around and

11     went back, while they proceeded along the road towards the command.

12        Q.   Besides this old person with missing teeth, did you see anybody

13     else in that area when you pulled up your minivan there?

14        A.   I saw another two or three civilians who were minding the cattle

15     or were picking raspberries.  I don't know exactly what they were doing.

16     Because there was a forest, I wasn't able to see much more.  I think I

17     saw a couple of persons there.  Whether they were security or not, I

18     don't know because I didn't go closer.  And I also saw two vehicles

19     parked in the area.

20        Q.   What kind of vehicles did you see parked in the area?

21        A.   As far as I remember, one -- one 110 vehicle and one Pinzgauer,

22     or maybe an ambulance vehicle.  I'm not sure, but I saw these two

23     vehicles.

24        Q.   So when you say a 110 vehicle, can you tell us the -- what the

25     brand name that was?

Page 32788

 1        A.   That's a TAM-110 truck.

 2        Q.   All right.  And the Pinzgauer, what kind of a vehicle was that?

 3        A.   Well, it's a vehicle for various purposes.  It's an all-terrain

 4     vehicle.  I never drove one.

 5        Q.   Now, when these men that you brought over in the minivan got out

 6     of the minivan, were they armed?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   With what?

 9        A.   They had rifles.

10        Q.   What kind of rifles?

11        A.   I suppose automatic ones.

12        Q.   And tell us what happened as you waited there, after they left.

13        A.   Well, I went back for about one kilometre.  I don't remember if I

14     went anywhere.  There was some people building some house there, but I

15     don't know what they were doing.  I never approached them or asked them

16     what they were doing.  I just had some water to drink.

17        Q.   You've told us, in the interview, about seeing some men with

18     belts, and you described the colour of the belt.  Do you remember that?

19        A.   While I was standing there and they were getting out, I noticed,

20     close to the command, three or four men in uniform.  Whether it was their

21     army posted there to secure the command headquarters or not, I don't

22     know, because I never went near them.

23        Q.   What about the belts?

24        A.   Well, they had yellow belts, maybe white.  I don't remember

25     precisely because I -- I couldn't see much.  They were far away.  I just

Page 32789

 1     saw these men standing there, but what they were doing, I really don't

 2     know.

 3        Q.   Did those men that you drove in the minibus come back to you?

 4        A.   When do you mean?

 5        Q.   That day, after you dropped them off, did you have to take them

 6     back home?

 7        A.   Yes.  Since the commander told me at the beginning that the

 8     front-line had been broken through, I was told to wait for them and take

 9     them back, and I did what I had been told to do.

10        Q.   How long was it before they came back?  How long did you wait

11     until they showed up again at your minivan?

12        A.   Well, I cannot tell you precisely.  If I remember, it lasted

13     three, four, five hours.  I don't know exactly, but this can also be

14     found in the log-book.

15        Q.   What were they doing, as far as you know, if you know?

16        A.   Well, I wouldn't know, because my commander told me that the line

17     had been breached and that I had to drive them to the 4th Battalion.

18     However, what they did there, I -- I have no idea.  I wasn't there with

19     them.  I was waiting for them in the vicinity of the builders, so I

20     cannot give you any precise data.  I'm reluctant to tell you something

21     that would be untrue; therefore, I don't know what they were doing.

22        Q.   So were you still scared of these men, like you were when they

23     got on your vehicle?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Why?

Page 32790

 1        A.   Because I had troubles with them before, and some other people,

 2     who persecuted me because I had been in Serbia.

 3        Q.   When they came back, what happened?

 4        A.   I was standing next to the vehicle.  Suddenly, I heard someone's

 5     voice.  A man was with me who was watering his cattle, and I suddenly

 6     noticed them coming and walking towards me.  I got on the minibus.  They

 7     also got on in the minibus.  They went and took seats behind and told me

 8     to drive them to the spot where I had picked them up.

 9        Q.   And did you do that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And where was it that you were dropping them off to?  I mean,

12     surely not just in the middle of the road somewhere.

13        A.   I took them to the exact place where they got on.

14        Q.   All right.  Let's take a look at the vehicle log that you've seen

15     before.  It's P04432, and, sir, that will come up on your screen.  I have

16     the original, too, which I'll show in a minute, but let's have you work

17     with the screen for a minute, since everyone else is looking at that as

18     well.

19             If we could put the first page of the B/C/S on that.  It

20     shouldn't be broadcast.  If we could blow up the right side.  The left

21     side really isn't important for my questioning.

22             Okay.  Sir, first of all, can you tell us what this is.

23        A.   I need my glasses, and it's in my jacket.

24        Q.   And your jacket's in the witness room?

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Could someone --

Page 32791

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the inside pocket.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll bring it over to you.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   And, sir, if you need to take a break for any reason, you know,

 5     just let me know, and you can take a break.

 6        A.   Not yet.

 7        Q.   Okay.  While we're waiting for your glasses, can you tell us what

 8     the vehicle work log is?  We'll go over the details when you can see it,

 9     but can you tell us, just generally, what it's used for?

10        A.   The vehicle work log is a sheet which serves for recording the

11     use of a vehicle, including all the data relating to the fuel, the

12     lubricants, and other things.

13        Q.   And you had told us that your supervisors were a bit worried

14     about you because you'd gone to Serbia at once in your career, you'd gone

15     AWOL; is that right?

16        A.   Could you please repeat the question.

17        Q.   You told us that your supervisors were a bit worried about you,

18     kind of looking at you closely, because at one point you had gone to

19     Serbia without permission; is that right?

20        A.   What do you mean?  During the war or -- I don't understand the

21     question.

22        Q.   Yes, during the war.  You went to Serbia without permission,

23     right, and you got in trouble with your supervisors?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, yes.

25        Q.   And was it your job to fill in this report for this vehicle?

Page 32792

 1        A.   I wasn't supposed to sign it.  I was only supposed to record the

 2     journey.

 3        Q.   And did you record the journey accurately when you were recording

 4     and filling this out?

 5        A.   Whatever's written in my handwriting, I can vouch, say that it's

 6     true.  But as for the others, I don't know.

 7        Q.   All right.  Well, let's look at this first page, and I'm going to

 8     give you the original so you can see the original just of the first page

 9     now.

10             Now, we can all see that this says "minibus."  Is that the

11     minibus you drove on that day, on the 23rd of July?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And now I notice -- I notice you're looking on the back page, and

14     we'll get to the back page, but could you flip over and look at the first

15     page so we can talk about that for a minute.  And do you see your name on

16     that first page as one of the drivers?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And do you see your handwriting anywhere on that first page?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go to the second page.  Now, before we

21     blow it up, do you see your handwriting on this page anywhere?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And can you describe where you see your handwriting.

24        A.   You can find it in -- under the item dated 19th of July, also

25     20th of July and 21st of July, and 23rd of July as well.

Page 32793

 1        Q.   How about the 24th?

 2        A.   No, that's -- it's one of my colleagues' handwriting for the

 3     24th.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So as we look on this document from the 19th to the 23rd,

 5     we see several columns at the top, and it goes "1" through "20."  You

 6     have told us before that all of those columns were your handwriting,

 7     except column 20; is that right?

 8        A.   I can see here from the 19th, so my handwriting is for the 19th

 9     and the 23rd.  The 24th was not, because I was driving a different

10     vehicle.

11        Q.   All right.  Well, let's go directly to the 23rd, where we see it

12     says "Vlasenica-Sekovici-Bisina-Sekovici."  Is that the trip that you've

13     described today in your testimony?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And is that your handwriting, having written

16     "Vlasenica-Sekovici-Bisina-Sekovici"?

17        A.   Yes, it is.

18        Q.   And under the total people carried, number 8, did you write that?

19        A.   Yes, that's how it was -- it should be.

20        Q.   And so does that eight include you, or is that only the people --

21     the number of people you carried?

22        A.   Including me.

23        Q.   All right.  So then we get to column 10, and it says

24     "Kilometres:  48."  Is that roughly accurate for the trip you took?

25        A.   Well, more or less, it's correct, because tachograph was

Page 32794

 1     inoperable, and the commander took these distances from the map and told

 2     me to record them as such.

 3        Q.   All right.  And then we go to the sections where people's names

 4     are handwritten in.  I want to -- it looks like 16, 17, 18, 19, and

 5     what's the name of the person that's handwritten in there for the 23rd of

 6     July, the first one?

 7        A.   23rd of July?

 8        Q.   Yes, please.

 9        A.   Are you referring to the first name that we can see, 16, 17, and

10     18?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   It's written here "Popovic."

13        Q.   Does it say "Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic"?

14        A.   Whether he was a lieutenant-colonel or colonel, I don't know

15     which rank he had.  It just says here "Popovic."

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we blow that up, section -- July 23rd,

17     section 16, 17, and 18 over on the far right side.

18        Q.   Sir, we can see something before "Popovic" on this, can't we?

19     It's an abbreviation, it looks like to me.

20        A.   It reads -- yes, I see, it says "PUK."  This is probably it,

21     "P. PUK Popovic."

22        Q.   And that's your handwriting; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So you wrote that down there; correct?  Or did you write that

25     down there?

Page 32795

 1        A.   I wrote this down because after I finished this and the log

 2     wasn't signed on the spot, I asked who's going to sign this.  He told me,

 3     Leave it on the desk and get out.  And that is what I did.  When I came

 4     back after two or three days, the same happened.  My boss, who was in

 5     charge of material and finances, he asked me whose signature this is.  I

 6     told him that I left the sheet with my boss and that I also cannot

 7     discern whose signature this was.  He asked what was happening.  I found

 8     this signature to be very suspicious, because I didn't sign it; I just

 9     filled in and left the room.  And the same happened with all the other

10     items that were initially without the signature and were later given a

11     signature.  So you can see my signature earlier, but whose signatures

12     came later on, I don't know.

13        Q.   Sir, are you saying you filled in the name "Popovic" after it was

14     signed?

15        A.   Yes, yes, as far as I can remember, particularly these journeys.

16     You can also see that my colleague filled it out afterwards.  When we

17     finished the journey, the person who used the car should sign it on the

18     spot.  Since this gentleman who was supposed to sign it for the trip

19     where I took these gentlemen wasn't around, I asked my boss what to do.

20     So even without a signature, I had to indicate the journey that I took.

21     Now, who signed this, I don't know.  I found it suspicious, so I had to

22     make some mark on it.

23             You can see also, from the subsequent entries, that the

24     signatures were put at a later date.  I had troubles on a couple of

25     occasions that they wanted to send me back on the front.  That is why I

Page 32796

 1     recorded everything accurately, in the event of any of my officers

 2     inquired about what I was doing, but I don't know who signed this.

 3        Q.   But you did write down "Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic" three times,

 4     as it's indicated in this record; correct?

 5        A.   Well, every time when I went on a trip, that's what I would do.

 6     If the user of the services is not there during the trip, I bring the log

 7     to my boss, I bring back the keys, and I go back to my dorm.  Or if I am

 8     going home and the vehicle is needed, another driver gets in and takes

 9     it.  I don't know exactly how the gentleman signs, whether it's really

10     his signature or not.  I cannot comment upon that.  But I asked the boss

11     of the assets and finances service immediately.  I left the log-book with

12     him and left.

13        Q.   But you -- you printed Popovic's name in this log-book; right?

14        A.   I did write it in block letters when the man asked me about the

15     signature.  He asked me, Where did you go?  Who was in charge?  And I

16     said, Popovic, I wrote down "Popovic," because that's what I had been

17     told.  The man did not sign the log.  I normally don't leave the car

18     until my log-book is signed, because I know I will get in trouble.

19        Q.   Sir, so you just said:

20             "I did write in block letters, which the man asked me about the

21     signature.  He asked me, Where did you go?  Who was in charge?  And I

22     said, Popovic, I wrote down 'Popovic,' because that's what I had been

23     told.  The man did not sign the log.  I normally don't leave the car

24     until my log-book is signed, because I know I will get in trouble."

25             So you stand by that answer?

Page 32797

 1        A.   Yes, I said that, but I also added something about the signature,

 2     because this was not signed immediately.  I didn't even see the man

 3     there, and that's what I emphasised.  The same happened with those

 4     entries where it said -- where it says "Drago."  I had to put it in there

 5     as an approximation.  Somebody from their service was in charge.  I

 6     couldn't go into that.  I just carried out the orders.

 7        Q.   Somebody from whose service was in charge?

 8        A.   Well, that service, you know, the service that the boss indicated

 9     to me.

10        Q.   Tell us.  I mean, we know there's different services in the army,

11     but what service?

12        A.   Well, the security service.  I don't know what to call it.  I'm

13     not a very literate man, and I don't know much about the distribution of

14     services.

15        Q.   Well, why did you think Popovic was in charge, to have written

16     that on this log-book like you said?

17        A.   Well, because my boss said, well, probably Popovic.  I could not

18     argue with him.  I wrote what he said; I left the paper on his desk.  And

19     where he carried the log from there on, I don't know.

20        Q.   Sir, did your boss say "probably Popovic," or did he say

21     "Popovic"?

22        A.   He said, Probably Popovic.  It was a long time ago, but as far as

23     I remember, he said, Well, Popovic, I suppose.  I really don't know

24     whether it was him or someone else from his service.  I don't make these

25     decisions.

Page 32798

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you briefly about the entry on the 19th.  We

 2     have an intercept where the Prosecution believes is a mention of a

 3     Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic having some job he's doing on the 19th,

 4     distributing something, I believe.  What can you tell us about what you

 5     were doing on the 19th?

 6        A.   Well, if I remember correctly, it says here something about the

 7     19th, and I -- it's probably as I described it earlier.  I went to

 8     Vlasenica, Tesca and Jakovica; that's some village where the battalion

 9     was.  I don't know exactly what it was about.  Perhaps those people were

10     on leave, so the soldiers from Vlasenica went there.  I don't recall

11     exactly.

12        Q.   Okay.  I want to draw your attention to, and we can see it right

13     at the top of the page -- we know the first two lines are from the 19th.

14     We see the first line says "Colonel Popovic," and the second line is

15     "Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic," and that's your handwriting, isn't it, that

16     you wrote that in there too; correct?

17        A.   Yes, yes, it is my signature -- it's my handwriting, sorry.

18        Q.   So you were working with Colonel Popovic that day?

19        A.   No.  No, I didn't even see him.

20        Q.   So why did you write his name down there?

21        A.   Well, because some job was being done for his service or

22     involving his people, the trip to Jakovica and the driving back to

23     Sekovici.  In those days, I didn't see much of him; maybe once during a

24     lineup, but I didn't really look carefully, and I didn't have any contact

25     with him because I practically didn't know him.  I did not go upstairs,

Page 32799

 1     as a rule.  It was out of bounds for me.  During those days, I didn't see

 2     him at all, I believe.  I saw him perhaps that once during a lineup.  I

 3     was just a regular soldier.  I did not normally speak to them.

 4        Q.   Sir, it's the position of the Prosecution, and I'm very glad that

 5     you came to testify today, but that you know much more than you're

 6     telling.  You know that people were executed at Bisina, don't you?

 7        A.   Let me tell you very honestly.  After all the torture they

 8     inflicted upon me, I am very bitter.  If I knew anything else, I would

 9     certainly tell you, but since I don't know anything but what I could read

10     from the media -- and for every of these trips, I wouldn't have let him

11     off if he had been there.  He would have had to sign for himself.

12     Everyone who uses a vehicle is obliged to sign for it.  Really, for this

13     day, the 19th, somebody from that service, from their service, perhaps

14     issued an order to my boss, saying, Drive these people to Jakovci, to

15     that battalion.  They must return to their position, and that was it.

16     Apart from that, I couldn't say anything, because I really don't know

17     what was going on.  I mean, whatever I said would be perhaps untrue, and,

18     I mean, I don't remember anything else happening.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No further questions.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Zivanovic.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I'd like just briefly to consult my

23     client; very, very briefly, for a minute or two.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, of course, of course.  The security guards,

25     please make that possible.

Page 32800

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

 2             We have no questions for the witness.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic.

 4             Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic.

 7             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic.

 9             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No questions.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             Ms. Fauveau.

12             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa.

14             MR. SARAPA:  No questions.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

16             Do you have questions, Judge Kwon, Judge Stole?

17             Sir, you will be pleased to know that we don't require your

18     presence any further, because your testimony comes to an end here.

19             You're free to go, and you will receive assistance from our staff

20     to facilitate your return back home at the earliest.

21             On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having

22     come over to give testimony, and I also wish you a safe journey back

23     home.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Anything else before we adjourn?

Page 32801

 1             Yes, the pseudonym sheet and the log-book.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  They are already in evidence.

 4             I don't need to ask if there is any objection to the tendering of

 5     the pseudonym sheet?  It's admitted and to be kept under seal, please.

 6             Anything else?  None.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  So one moment.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session, please.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 32802

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             So to revert to the public aspect of it, so by Friday we expect a

 6     further motion from you.  We are to expect a further motion for further

 7     reopening and further rebuttal.  Thank you.

 8             We stand adjourned now.

 9             You will soon know, because we will be -- I actually have already

10     signed it, but we'll be issuing orders as regards scheduling.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.18 a.m.