Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33134

 1                           Friday, 24 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.  Mr. Registrar, could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning, Your

 9     Honours.  Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is

10     case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

11     Thank you.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  For the record, all the accused are

13     present.  The presentation is complete as -- precisely as yesterday.  The

14     witness is present, also his counsel, Mr. Tansey.

15             Mr. Ostojic, unless there are preliminaries, you may proceed with

16     your cross-examination.

17             Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:  Just a pre-preliminary, Mr. President.  If we could

19     reserve perhaps two or three minutes at some point during the day just to

20     give the Trial Chamber an idea of some scheduling for next -- next week,

21     what we have available for the Trial Chamber.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I would suggest that we leave that till the very

23     end.  In the meantime, we will have seen how far advanced we would have

24     gone with this witness.

25             Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

Page 33135

 1             Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Thank

 3     you.

 4                           WITNESS:  MOMIR NIKOLIC [Resumed]

 5                           [Witnessed answered through interpreter]

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

 7        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, yesterday we were speaking briefly about

 8     Dragan Mirkovic, and in order to advance the process, let me just quote

 9     what you said in several proceedings when you gave testimony before, and

10     you tell me if that's correct or not.

11             With respect to Dragan Mirkovic, you said on the

12     23rd of September, 2003, under oath, sir, that he told you that the

13     civilian bodies --

14             MR. THAYER:  Sorry, could we have a transcript cite, please.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm sorry.  1763, lines 15 through 17.

16        Q.   You testified under oath, sir, that Mr. Mirkovic told you that

17     the civilian bodies, the civilian government requested from him to

18     provide a vehicle so that the dead bodies of the Muslims that had been

19     killed could be put away during the night.  Do you remember giving that

20     testimony under oath on the 23rd of September, 2003, and do you stand by

21     it here today?

22        A.   Yes, I do remember it.

23        Q.   Do you stand by it here today, sir?

24        A.   Yes, although I would like to ask you not to manipulate with what

25     I said.

Page 33136

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Excuse me.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  And I'm going to ask the Court to instruct the

 3     witness just to answer the question as he has.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, okay.  Stop, Mr. Ostojic.  We will do that.

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic, we've done really fine so far.  If

 7     there is need to protect you, we will be the ones to protect you.  Don't

 8     worry.  We have stopped not just Mr. Ostojic but everyone else when it

 9     was needed, and we will continue to do so.

10             So Mr. Ostojic.

11             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Sir, one week after that sworn testimony that you stand by here

13     today, you testified again in the Blagojevic case, and under oath again,

14     sir, you said the following, and that's on page 2284, lines 8 through 11:

15              "Dragan Mirkovic told me that he was personally in charge of

16     clearing -- or, rather, transporting the bodies and digging the graves

17     and the cleansing of the terrain as a member of the civil defence unit in

18     Bratunac at the time."

19             Sir, do you remember giving that testimony under oath, and do you

20     stand by it here today?

21        A.   Yes, I stand by it.  I also stand by the first quote you used as

22     well as by everything I said then and what you have just quoted.  In any

23     case, I feel a need to explain that in more detail, but I shall wait with

24     that until a better opportunity arises.

25        Q.   The third issue I want to cover with you as to no only who gave

Page 33137

 1     Mr. Mirkovic instructions to get a truck, who authorised him to

 2     personally supervise and to take the transportation of the Muslim bodies

 3     from Kravica to Glogova and to bury them ultimately.  The third issue

 4     with respect to this I want to cover, and that's your testimony that on

 5     the 23rd of September, 2003, page 1762 for counsel, and that is all the

 6     way from lines 12 to 19.  You also stated that Dragan Mirkovic informed

 7     you that between 80 and a hundred Muslims had been killed that night,

 8     meaning the night of the 13th, in Bratunac.  Do you remember giving that

 9     testimony, and do you stand by that testimony today?

10        A.   Yes, I stand by it, and I'm ready to explain that as well.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Ostojic should not overlap.  Thank you.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Sir, when did Mr. Mirkovic tell you that he was in charge of

14     transporting and digging the bodies of the Bosnian Muslims that were

15     murdered at the Kravica massacre?  When did he first tell you that?

16        A.   I cannot be precise as to the time or date of that, but it was

17     not at the time as all it was was -- all of it was happening.  It was

18     sometime later when we were discussing those matters.  The war was over,

19     and then I had an opportunity to discuss with Mirkovic those issues.  We

20     talked about the corpses, that is to say the killed people who were in

21     Kravica.  To makes things clear, I'm ready to respond to each and every

22     of your questions, but we have to make a distinction between two things.

23     There were those killed, and then there were those killed -- they were

24     along the road between Sandici and Kravica and in the area of Kravica

25     itself.  That should be the first thing that is clear.

Page 33138

 1             Another thing what I had in mind when I confirmed what you quoted

 2     referred to a group of people that was killed after being detained in the

 3     Vuk Karadzic school, the hangar, and other buildings in that area.  As

 4     regards those buildings, I refer to between 80 and 100 people and the

 5     information I got from Mr. Mirkovic to the effect that he was tasked by

 6     the Bratunac civilian authorities, that is to say the municipal

 7     president, president of the Executive Board, to have the 80 to 100 people

 8     removed once he had secured a vehicle to do so and to clean that area.

 9     Mirkovic Dragan told me that perhaps a year or even a year and a half

10     after the operation.

11        Q.   Thank you for that.  Let me try to put it in context.  Did he

12     tell you this before or after you personally burned the documents from

13     the Srebrenica operation that was in your safe in May of 1996?  So if we

14     were to look at a time line, did you have this conversation with

15     Mr. Mirkovic before or after you destroyed those documents?

16        A.   There are documents, and you have evidence of that, that the

17     hand-over was done sometime in 1997, in March or April.  I don't have

18     that with me, so I'm not sure.  In any case, that was before I handed

19     over the documents from the vault of the security organ.

20        Q.   But we're -- sorry, and I'll let you finish, but I'm not

21     really interested -- and we'll get to the discussion about your

22     destruction of documents, and with all due respect, just so you know,

23     without being either aggressive or rude to you.  It's my understanding

24     that you burned the documents in the safe, not that you handed them over,

25     that you set fire to them.  Isn't that true?

Page 33139

 1        A.   It is true.

 2        Q.   We will talk about -- we will talk about that a little

 3     extensively in a few minutes, but all I wanted to know for this point,

 4     the time line when you had this conversation with Dragan Mirkovic, when

 5     he informed you about the burial of the bodies in Glogova, that he was in

 6     charge of it personally, both the transportation and the burial, when he

 7     told you about the 80 to a hundred Bosnian Muslims who were killed in

 8     Bratunac:  When did you have this discussion with him relative to the

 9     time that you burned the documents from the safe at the Bratunac Brigade?

10     And from my time line, that was in May of 1996 that you did that act, so

11     when did you have this conversation with him, before or after May of

12     1996?

13        A.   First of all, I'm not sure about the date.  We can look into a

14     document that is in existence.  That is not in dispute, the document of

15     my hand-over.  And at the same time, I did set fire to some documents.

16     That document is in existence.  I think it was in April 1997, although

17     I'm not sure.  In any case, we can refer to the document.

18             The next thing I wanted to say is this:  I did not receive any

19     report from Dragan Mirkovic.  We merely had a conversation since we were

20     on good terms.  This was no official report submitted to me by

21     Dragan Mirkovic, and he did not brief me officially.  In any case, this

22     was after I had left the army.  In any case, I don't know the exact date.

23        Q.   Let's -- let's talk about the destruction of documents for a

24     moment.  Is it true, sir, that you personally destroyed these documents?

25        A.   It is true that I destroyed a portion of the documents from the

Page 33140

 1     vault of the security organ.  However, it is incorrect that I destroyed

 2     any official documents kept by the security organ.

 3        Q.   Is it also true, sir, that you did not receive orders from anyone

 4     to destroy those documents, and you did it on your own volition?

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  And for counsel, you could look on page 2365 of his

 6     testimony, pages -- that was the page -- lines 10 through 11.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that I did not receive

 8     any orders to destroy documents, at least pertaining to those that I did.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:

10        Q.   Is it also true, sir, that in May of 1996 when those documents

11     were destroyed by you personally that you did so because you were "afraid

12     of the consequences"?

13        A.   I can accept that formulation.  If I may add another sentence,

14     there were documents which in a certain way could compromise myself and

15     the Bratunac Brigade.  I stated that openly, and there's nothing to be

16     disputed about that.

17        Q.   And those are actually, Mr. Nikolic, your words.  You said, "I

18     was afraid of the consequences," and you were afraid of the consequences

19     because the documents that you burned, destroyed, set fire to, would

20     compromise you personally and the brigade; correct?

21        A.   I said so, and I testified to that effect.

22        Q.   Now, on the 1st of October, 2003, when the Honourable

23     Judge Vassylenko asked you questions regarding this topic of destruction

24     of documents or spoilation of evidence, you seemed to volunteer to him in

25     one of your answers at page 2366, line 7, that the documents that you

Page 33141

 1     destroyed included your diary, your notes, and your opinions, et cetera,

 2     is the way you phrased it, and that's at line 7, counsel, 2366.  Do you

 3     remember giving that testimony to the Honourable Judge Vassylenko?  Do

 4     you think that's accurate as you sit here today that that's what you

 5     burned?

 6        A.   Among other things, yes.

 7        Q.   And what other things are you referring to, sir?

 8        A.   I also said that in the vault, there were several types of

 9     documents.  It is difficult to explain in a single sentence.  The first

10     group of documents were those kept by the intelligence security organ,

11     that is to say, myself.  In the notes of hand-over, you have a list of

12     the things contained in the vault, and you have it in groups, documents

13     kept by the security organ pursuant to the rules of security organs, and

14     based on that you can see that no official document of that nature was

15     destroyed.  All things that had to do with the professional expert line

16     of work were not destroyed.  I told Judge Vassylenko that I destroyed

17     some notes, my diary, information sheets of sorts, and there is a set of

18     documents which I kept in the vault which were information memos I

19     received from my cooperatives in the various units without having been

20     able to verify the information contained therein.

21             For example, there was a mention of smuggling of arms involving

22     two people, one on the Serb and the other on the Muslim side.  When

23     investigating, I couldn't prove those allegations.  That information was

24     in the vault.

25             As the security organ and as required by the rules of service, I

Page 33142

 1     had to destroy such documents.  I was under an obligation to do so.  I

 2     destroyed that set of documents, as well as those which I can frankly say

 3     here were all the documents that had to do with the operation of the

 4     transfer of bodies from the primary to secondary graves.  There were

 5     working notes, then there were lists of all of the participants in that

 6     operation, lists of machinery used, as well as reports on the fuel spent.

 7     I had photocopied forms that we received in the Bratunac Brigade which

 8     were in a large envelope that I was the custodian of.  Those were the

 9     papers that were destroyed.  Everything else, everything that falls under

10     the title "Official documents," as you can see from the notes of the

11     hand-over were handed over to the successor.  It is all in the documents.

12        Q.   Now, sir, isn't it also true that in May of 1996 when you set out

13     to do this task personally without any orders to burn the documents in

14     your safe as you've described, you did it because you knew SFOR was

15     starting to commence searches for various documents within your brigade;

16     correct?

17        A.   It's not.  I -- that was done much before I destroyed the

18     documents.  SFOR was engaged extensively in that area much earlier than

19     the destruction of documents occurred and the hand-over.  They had a base

20     in the immediate vicinity of Bratunac.  They were present round the clock

21     working on those issues.  They were visiting the field, carrying out

22     checks.  Therefore, your assertion does not stand.

23        Q.   So is it your testimony that SFOR had nothing -- the fact that

24     SFOR was coming to the area to search for those documents had no

25     motivation for you to destroy those documents?  Is that what you're

Page 33143

 1     telling us basically?  Right?

 2        A.   I'm not telling you that.  I'm telling you simply that members of

 3     SFOR had already been present there.  You can understand that any which

 4     way you want, but if -- if it would be favourable for you to have that as

 5     a motive, then I'll agree with it.

 6        Q.    It's not a question of whether it's favourable.  All I want is

 7     finally to get you to tell me the truth, and to be very frank with you,

 8     here is what you said on the 1st of October, 2003, under oath, and that's

 9     approximately --not approximately, it's page 2365.  The question and your

10     answer is long-winded, but nevertheless, you state here on lines 24 and

11     25:

12             "I knew that what was underway was searches by the commands of

13     SFOR.  I took these documents, and I destroyed them."

14             All I want to do is have you reconcile that for me, and it was my

15     impression from reading your testimony if I accepted it ever as being

16     truthful, and now what you say here, was SFOR really a motivating factor

17     in addition to you being afraid of the consequences of you personally

18     having been exposed in your brigade to what occurred in Srebrenica, or

19     did SFOR not play a role?  At the end of the day, that's all we really

20     want to know, a final answer on this question.

21        A.   It is only normal that it did have some influence.

22        Q.   Okay.

23        A.   Without the searches and raids ... the point is this:  Why did

24     not destroy the documents a fortnight or a month before that?  I

25     destroyed the documents on the very date of the hand-over, and it was

Page 33144

 1     then that the opportunity arose for me to destroy everything that I did

 2     not wish to turn over to my successor.

 3        Q.   We can spend hours talking about your motives and opportunities,

 4     sir, but I just want to talk about the destruction of these documents.

 5     Isn't it true, or you tell me if it's true or false, that you destroyed

 6     all the documents relating to the period - meaning the Srebrenica

 7     operation - before the beginning of the operation, during the operation,

 8     following the operation about which you reported to the command of the

 9     Drina Corps; therefore, Mr. Nikolic, you destroyed all written documents

10     and reports that were in your safe.  Isn't that the truth?

11        A.   How could it be?  The hand-over document is there proving that

12     it's not true.

13        Q.   Well, I don't know if it's true or not, but I can share with you

14     that under oath you gave sworn testimony on the 23rd of September, 2003,

15     at page 1773.  When Mr. McCloskey, I believe, was asking you the question

16     you gave the following answer, and that's lines 14 through 18.

17     Mr. McCloskey, he's the Prosecutor for the Office of the Prosecution that

18     led you in that case.  On line 13:

19             "What kind of documents did you destroy?"

20             Answer by Mr. Nikolic, under oath, lines 14 through 18:

21             "I destroyed all the documents relating to the period, that is,

22     reports around Srebrenica before the beginning of operations, during the

23     operations, following the operations about which I reported to the

24     commander of the Drina Corps."

25             But you don't stop.  You continue, Mr. Nikolic, under oath to say

Page 33145

 1     the following on that same page, 1773, lines 17 through 18.  You state:

 2             "Therefore, all written documents and reports that I had in my

 3     safe."

 4             That's what you said under oath six or so years ago.  Can you

 5     reconcile for me or explain why you think that's not true, because in

 6     fact, Mr. Nikolic, you did destroy all the documents within the safe, did

 7     you not?

 8        A.   You can assert whatever you like.  I'm telling you what I did

 9     destroy, and I can confirm that and explain.  The reports I had in the

10     vault -- please, you don't want to stop talking, and yet you don't want

11     me to explain.  Otherwise, I'll keep completely silent.  You cannot force

12     me to say a simple yes or no.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic, you don't address Mr. Ostojic.  You

14     address the Judges.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President.  But

16     if Mr. Ostojic is putting a question to me without letting me to provide

17     an explanation, then I don't know why I'm here.  Please allow me to

18     explain.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please go ahead.  No one is stopping you, and to my

20     knowledge Mr. Ostojic did not try to stop you.  Go ahead and finish your

21     explanation.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this is about the report that

23     were in my safe, and they indeed referred to the period before, during,

24     and after the Srebrenica operation.  These are various reports that I

25     kept in my safe.  Basically, these reports are not to be handed over to

Page 33146

 1     anyone.  I didn't place them in the archives, and they remained in my

 2     safe.  It is true that they were inter-related and that they contained

 3     information about Srebrenica, but quite simply these kind of reports are

 4     not to be handed over to anyone because no one needed them.  These are

 5     the reports that I destroyed as well as the other documents that I

 6     already mentioned.  However, your claim is wrong when you say that I

 7     destroyed all the documents that were in the safe.  The truth is that I

 8     destroyed the report pertaining to the relevant periods, the ones that

 9     you mentioned.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:

11        Q.   Sir, you gave testimony under oath and it was recorded by the

12     court reporters in that courthouse that you said:

13             "Therefore, all written documents and reports that I had in my

14     safe."

15             So I'm not surmising that, but --

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no, Mr. Ostojic.  Now I'm going to stop you.

17     It's --

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough, I'll move on.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Come on.

20             MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.

21        Q.   Now, sir, what I'd like to ask you is what else was in that safe?

22     Do you remember?

23        A.   There were pistols from war booty, some jewellery, also as part

24     of the war booty.  There was money from the war booty and official

25     documents of the security organ that were being kept in the safe.

Page 33147

 1        Q.   Now, when you reference the war booty specifically with respect

 2     to the jewellery, as I think you called it spoils of war at one point, do

 3     you remember from whom specifically you obtained those spoils of war,

 4     that jewellery that was in your safe?

 5        A.   These were the items confiscated from the people who were

 6     imprisoned.  They had to hand over the money, the gold, jewellery, and

 7     everything else that they had of value, and that was recorded.  There was

 8     also another group of people who had been transferred from Serbia to the

 9     Bratunac Brigade, and along with them arrived the money and everything

10     that they had, and all of that was put into the safe.  At the time of the

11     hand-over of the security organ safe, a record was made of the hand-over

12     to the corps organ, including all the valuables that were there.

13        Q.   And we have that.  It's reflected on Exhibit 4D687 that that

14     occurred approximately on the 4th of April, 1997.  And in particular,

15     what I'd like to focus on are the prisoners that you received from Serbia

16     that came, the Bosnian Muslims that you received in late or mid-July

17     1995.  Do you remember that?  You have to give a verbal answer or a -- do

18     you remember that you received prisoners from Serbia in July of 1995,

19     people who left the Srebrenica and Potocari area or some area there, and

20     then they were returned back to the Bratunac Brigade, specifically to

21     you.  Do you remember that?

22        A.   They were not returned to me.  They were first returned to the

23     border police, and that was a procedure that was a normal one at the

24     time.  A number of these Muslim prisoners who were returned from Serbia

25     were sent to the border police.  Some were handed over to the Bratunac

Page 33148

 1     Brigade, and then the Bratunac Brigade police, pursuant to order of the

 2     corps command, were transferred to the prisons in Knezina, Batkovici, or

 3     Vlasenica.  I don't remember all of those who were there.

 4        Q.   How do you know they were transferred to Batkovici and Vlasenica?

 5     How do you remember that?

 6        A.   I know because Zlatko Cejanovic along with the MP commander and

 7     military policeman was the person in charge of drafting the supporting

 8     documents for sending these people to these facilities.  I think I saw

 9     lists from Batkovici and Knezina containing the names of these people,

10     and it also contains information about the origin of where these people

11     had come from.

12        Q.   Did you consider this issue, because there's a record on the

13     7th of April, 1997, specifying what specific jewellery was placed in your

14     safe, and we were able to trace that jewellery to certain Bosnian Muslims

15     who were returned specifically to your custody from Serbia; the people on

16     that list, sir, were you -- did you find that to be problematic for you

17     at all with respect to your involvement in that?

18        A.   I don't see anything problematic there because I absolutely had

19     no other relationship apart from maintaining contact with the border

20     police commander because he was the one who handed them over to the

21     Bratunac police, military police -- Bratunac Brigade military police.  He

22     sometimes used to see me.  I would sign a list of people who had been

23     handed over to the Bratunac police.

24        Q.   Well, let's just quickly look, if we can, at 4D687, please.  And

25     I don't want to spend too much time on this, but I just want to highlight

Page 33149

 1     a couple of things for you and get your answer.  And that would be page

 2     2, but we can look at the first page, so I just want to get acquainted

 3     with the document.  It's a record hand-over of documents and other

 4     material.

 5             Directing -- sir, I'm going to just quickly -- and if you do need

 6     the time, please let us know, as I'm sure you will, to read the full

 7     document.  I want to focus on paragraph 20 for the moment.

 8        A.   Can I please see it?

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and paragraph 20 talks

10     specifically about you, sir, personally handing over to the commission

11     certain items from the spoils of war, and then they list out six or so

12     items, and above that they list out pistols.  Do you see that?  Okay.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   I want to compare some of these items to other documents that

15     you've signed.  So if you could just for this moment focus on number 1,

16     item number 1, which is a one gold chain, and item number 3, which says

17     "One gold men's ring," as well as item number 4, which says "four small

18     gold -- gold chains (pierced)."  So these three items in mind and then

19     let's look at 4D431, please.  And with all due respect, we're going to

20     focus on paragraph number 4, but I'd like Mr. Nikolic to verify that

21     that's his name that appears on the right-hand corner and that bears his

22     signature on the copy of this document, 4D431.  So, sir -- thank you.  I

23     wasn't sure --

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Now, focusing your attention, these are some of the people that

Page 33150

 1     you received on the 24th of July, 1995, who were in Serbia, and then they

 2     were transferred to -- or given to the border police, and the border

 3     police transferred them to you; correct?

 4        A.   The border police transferred them to the Bratunac Brigade, and

 5     this hand-over record was signed by me on behalf of the Bratunac Brigade.

 6     Therefore, they were not handed over to me.  They were handed over to the

 7     commander of the border police.  He only came to my office and asked me

 8     to sign it.  You have it in front of you, this list --

 9        Q.   I just --

10        A.   -- and I said that the border police commander was also a

11     signatory.

12        Q.   I just want to match some of the people, so if you look at item

13     number 4, that person when he was brought to you had with him the three

14     items that we discussed as reflected on Exhibit 4D687, and why don't you

15     read what it says in B/C/S.  If you could look, it's on the fourth line,

16     and then we could maybe go back and match it to 4D678.  What does it say

17     on the fourth line that he had?  It starts with 1, and then it says

18     "zlatni lanac."  Do you see that?  So one gold chain.  Can you continue

19     reading for me?  What else does it say?  1 "zlatni muski prsten," right?

20     One gold men's ring.  What else?

21        A.   Yes.  Just a moment.  Four small pierced coin, and then it says

22     ID card number, et cetera.

23        Q.   This individual seems to match the person whose spoils of war you

24     had in your safe, does it not?  I mean, he had one gold chain, one gold

25     men's ring, four small gold coins pierced; right?

Page 33151

 1        A.   I cannot give you an affirmative answer --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        A.   -- really.  Please.  Whose jewellery this is, I don't know.  The

 4     person who arrested them or apprehended them was the one who confiscated

 5     these items and handed them over to the police with the proper record.

 6     He didn't hand them over to me.  What I had in the safe was what was

 7     given to me for safekeeping --

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   -- by the military police commander.

10        Q.   And let's look at 4D425, please, which is another listing.  Just

11     by way of example, I wanted to see where these two people were in

12     particular.  Yes, 4D529 are also similar names of prisoners that you

13     received from -- that were coming from Serbia that were turned over to

14     the border and then you received them from the border, and 4D529 is

15     actually the document that bears your signature, I believe, which

16     identifies the balance of these spoils of war, and I really wanted to

17     focus on these, and we want to do it in reverse this time, these three

18     items on item -- on paragraph number 3.  This person reflected on item

19     number 3, he was bearing with him, among other things, ten gold women's

20     rings of various sizes and one pearl necklace; correct?  Do you see that

21     under item 3?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Are we following that document?

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, I think so.  On the left-hand side, paragraph

24     number 3, the second to the last line, it starts with ten women's gold

25     rings --

Page 33152

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Thank you.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Do you see that, sir?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   That's the same -- that's the same items that are reflected on

 6     4D687.  So if we could just have 4D687, please, brought back, and that

 7     would be page 2, under paragraph 20.  And just, sir, if you could look at

 8     under paragraph 20, numbers 2, which says one pearl necklace, and then

 9     number 5, which it talks specifically about ten gold women's rings of

10     various sizes.  Now, what I'm suggesting to you, sir, is that the reason

11     you find or you should find that these people that you received

12     problematic is because the Prosecution is alleging that these people on

13     the list that I've showed you, that they were not transferred to

14     Batkovici or Vlasenica but that they were killed and buried in Glogova,

15     and you know that, and that's why in your notes, which we'll look at in a

16     minute, you write with respect to this issue that it's problematic, and

17     it's at that point that you start creating this story that they were

18     transferred to Batkovici or Vlasenica.  Isn't that true, sir?

19        A.   No, it's not true.

20        Q.   Earlier -- you earlier told us that you didn't find it

21     problematic --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Don't cut him --

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  I thought he --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- like that.  Although you're speaking English and

25     he's speaking Serbo-Croat, you understand the language, and therefore,

Page 33153

 1     you're not allowing a pause, and you make it appear as if you are

 2     interrupting straight away.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll pause.

 4        Q.   You continue, sir.  You said, no, it's not true.

 5        A.   No, it's not true.  I didn't have enough time to go through all

 6     the names, but one of the names that I spotted immediately was the name

 7     of Malkic, yes, Malkic.  I know this man, and I know that he is alive.

 8     He is still living and working in Srebrenica.  I didn't go through all

 9     the names, but what I know and what was told me -- that is to say all the

10     information that I had related to what happened to these people came from

11     the MP commander and Zlatko Cejanovic.  If you look at one document, you

12     will see that it was Zlatko Cejanovic, the one who drafted supporting

13     document and sending people where he did.  That is what I know.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  With the Court's permission, if we could have the

16     usher give us the original of his notes so we could direct his attention

17     specifically to a passage within that, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, you may.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:

20        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, we are just going to take your notes for one minute

21     and we'll return them, just so I may direct your attention to ... thank

22     you.  Yes.  And this is a passage in your notes that we found, although

23     we didn't have an opportunity to go through as closely as we would have

24     liked.  It's under the name of a person called Dragisa Jovanovic, and

25     within, I guess, his statement or testimony, you write certain notes as

Page 33154

 1     you do for other witnesses where you say it's important, where you assert

 2     that the person has lied, or you find that there is a problem area, and

 3     specifically relating to these people and the issue with respect to the

 4     jewellery that was found and where those people were ultimately buried,

 5     because I'll tell you, the Prosecution, even in their update from this

 6     Investigator Janc, they find that this guy Halilovic was found in

 7     Glogova.  His body was found Glogova.  But I want to talk to you about

 8     this, so if you can direct your attention to this page here that's open,

 9     and towards the bottom third of that page, do you see the name

10     Dragisa Jovanovic there, highlighted in yellow?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Just to put it in context, it's not immediately -- turn the next

13     page, sir, please.  Again, towards the bottom third of that page, you'll

14     see that there's an asterisk which says "document" in B/C/S.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can you read that section to us all the way through and including

17     the part where it says, "Problem."

18        A.   I have foreign currency --

19        Q.   But slowly.

20        A.   -- in my safe, and I have pistols.  I asked my commander, What

21     shall I do with that?  Based on the record, these items were --

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

23        A.   -- handed over to the chief of --

24        Q.   Who -- the chief of who?  You said you handed over to the chief.

25        A.   They were handed over to the chief of security of the

Page 33155

 1     Drina Corps.  This is what it says in the statement.  I am quoting from

 2     the statement.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 4        A.   Just a moment, please.  So this is a quote from Dragisa's

 5     statement, and we would really need to read the whole statement because

 6     these are just fractions from certain pages and taken out of context, and

 7     I would like to discuss this in this manner.  These are just portions of

 8     his statement.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I have --

10        A.   This is not the full statement, and these are not complete

11     sentences.

12        Q.   And that's why I asked the question.  If you could just help us

13     out, sir.  No one's trying to -- we're just trying to get an issue

14     resolved here.  I know that it says that, but we saw document 4D687, and

15     we know that this Mr. Dragisa Jovanovic asserted that and you wrote it

16     down.  We know that those jewellery and all those items were not given to

17     the chief of security of the Drina Corps, but they were given

18     specifically to a commission.  We know for sure that that commission

19     received those items on the 4th of April, 1997.

20             The next passage is what interests me.  That's your opinion, is

21     it not, when it starts with the word "problem," that you found this to be

22     problematic.  Those are your opinions right after that, is it not?  You

23     were nodding, but I wasn't sure ...

24        A.   No, no, no.  The first thing, I want to make it absolutely clear,

25     what is marked with an asterisk is only a part of the statement without

Page 33156

 1     the full context.  In order for me to discuss this, I would need to have

 2     the entire text.  What you see as a problem is that I added a remark

 3     "problem" relating to where these jewellery and other items came, and it

 4     says here that they had take -- been taken over from the people who came

 5     from -- back to Serbia, and they were recorded by the MUP.  It was not me

 6     who took these items from them.  It was done by the commander of the

 7     military police who received them and took care of them, and also

 8     Zlatko Cejanovic who was in charge of organising the transfer of these

 9     people to prison.  And it reads here they were -- the prisoners were

10     taken from Serbia to Susica and I believe to Batkovici.  And these people

11     whose jewellery is listed here were transferred to Susica or Batkovici,

12     so there is nothing disputable here.  This is all I know about this

13     incident.

14             I cannot confirm with any degree of certainty how many people

15     were where, but you can find a list of people who were in Batkovica, and

16     you can find also the names of the people who had been transferred from

17     Bratunac.  That is all I know.  Everything else was within the

18     jurisdiction of the military police.  Zlatan Cejanovic --

19        Q.   What --

20        A.   -- and the brigade command.  Yes, I'm finished.

21        Q.   When did you make these notes, sir?

22        A.   First of all, I have to explain this.  These notes were a working

23     project, so to speak.  There's nothing contained here that can be taken

24     as proof or evidence.  These are not my words.  These are excerpts from

25     the statements that I was reading and my opinions about certain things.

Page 33157

 1     There is nothing final about this, and it doesn't reflect my ultimate

 2     position.  So this was just an initial phase when I was receiving

 3     statements, reading them, thinking about what was going on.  That's it.

 4     So therefore, I do not consider this document to be any valuable

 5     evidence.  These are just my thoughts, and I revised my positions over

 6     the time after learning new information.

 7        Q.   In your long-winded answer, I failed to hear when you made these

 8     documents.  Can you give me a date or a approximate date when you created

 9     them, and if you can be concise, I would personally appreciate it.

10        A.   Yes, yes.  This document was created in a period that is

11     mentioned in --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the witness to

13     repeat the answer.  It was incomprehensible.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic, the interpreters didn't understand

15     what you said.  If you could kindly repeat your answer.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since there are three sets of notes

17     here, the first one contains orders and statements -- or, rather, four

18     sets with some orders, the second set contains statements of potential

19     Muslim witnesses, and the third one is, I think, relates to international

20     forces in Potocari, and the fourth set contains statement given by

21     Serbian witnesses.

22             According to the sequence of how I received them from the OTP, I

23     analysed them and made my notes, and this is how this notebook was

24     produced.  And it contains my thoughts and preparations in order for me

25     to be able to present to my lawyers the things that are relevant or may

Page 33158

 1     be irrelevant, to underline or highlight what could be crucial for my

 2     defence case, because I still didn't have the decision to enter an

 3     agreement.

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:

 5        Q.   Were these notes, then, would it be fair to say, created prior to

 6     your ultimate plead of guilty and to those negotiations?  So it was

 7     before somewhere in May of 2003; correct?

 8        A.   I think so.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move to another topic, Mr. Nikolic.  Can you

10     tell us, sir, in 1995 --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just a moment.  Mr. Gosnell.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry for interrupting my friend, and I didn't

13     want to interrupt the line of questioning, but way back on page 17, line

14     3, there was a mistranslation, I'm informed, something about the border

15     police commander also being an investigator.  I don't know if this is of

16     any significance, but I just wanted to put it on record and see if my

17     friend thought it was of significance and it needed to be corrected.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Right.  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  We can take a look at it.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  It may have been a misstatement.

22        Q.   Sir, can you tell us in 1995 in Bratunac, specifically the entire

23     territory of Bratunac, up until the Srebrenica operation when it started,

24     did there exist a civilian body or civilian bodies that were functioning

25     in that area that called themselves authorities in exile?

Page 33159

 1        A.   I have no clue.  This is the first time I hear of it.  A

 2     government or authorities in exile?

 3        Q.   Yeah.  I would have used government in exile.  I'm familiar with

 4     that, but specifically authorities in exile.  You're really telling us

 5     you have no idea what that is; right?  Never heard of it before?  I mean,

 6     that's what you said, right, just a second ago?

 7        A.   A government in exile?  I don't know such a government.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Well, help me with this, then, if you don't mind.  When

 9     you, sir, on the 1st of October, 2003, gave sworn testimony in the

10     Blagojevic case, the Honourable Judge Vassylenko asked you a question,

11     and for my learned friend it's on page 2366, lines 15 through 17 is the

12     question to you, Mr. Nikolic.  Judge -- the Honourable Judge Vassylenko's

13     queries:

14             "Mr. Nikolic, can you tell us what civilian bodies have

15     functioned in the municipality of Srebrenica at the time of the

16     operation?"

17             Answer by Mr. Nikolic, lines 18 through 21:

18             "In Bratunac and in the territory of Bratunac, until the

19     operation started there were authorities that were functioning and that

20     called themselves the authorities in exile, and they had their offices in

21     Bratunac, not in Srebrenica."

22             Now, sir, you told us under oath here that you never heard of

23     that term, but you used that term and you gave sworn testimony that you

24     knew what authorities in exiles -- in exile is.  Isn't that true?  So my

25     question to you, sir, is what you told Judge Vassylenko in 2003 false, or

Page 33160

 1     what is what you just uttered to this Court, that you never heard of the

 2     term "authorities in exiles," false?

 3        A.   Your Honours, I'd like to explain.  In my language, it was

 4     interpreted to me as a government in exile in Bratunac.  That is what

 5     heard.  I was confused by that at first because there was no government

 6     in Bratunac.

 7             Next, no one could have been exiled in 1995, but had the

 8     gentleman asked me whether any representatives of the civilian

 9     authorities of -- were in the area of Bratunac, I would have said yes,

10     there were Srebrenica civilian authorities representatives present in

11     Bratunac.  They had their offices there, although that was not their home

12     municipality.  They represented Srebrenica municipality in the territory

13     of Bratunac municipality.  They were there to represent the interests of

14     all of the inhabitants of Srebrenica municipality.

15             If you deem that to be exile, then it is.  I'm telling you that

16     Srebrenica authorities, representatives were in Bratunac taking care of

17     their population in the territory of Bratunac and hailed from Srebrenica.

18     That was the situation that was in the field.

19        Q.   Okay.  Focusing -- and I'm going to read it back just so we can

20     get it correct with the translation, and they've heard your comments on

21     that, I'm just quoting that back, and I have a question.  I quote:

22             "You stated, sir, under oath in 2003 in Bratunac and in the

23     territory of Bratunac, until the operation started, there were

24     authorities that were functioning and that called themselves the

25     authorities in exile, and they had their offices in Bratunac, not in

Page 33161

 1     Srebrenica."

 2             All I want to do is follow up on this answer that you gave

 3     previously.  When were this -- when was this group or body formed,

 4     this -- these authorities in exile, to the best of your knowledge?

 5        A.   I can tell you only approximately; sometime in May of 1992

 6     perhaps.  I am not sure of the time exactly, but it was in the period

 7     when Srebrenica fell and the Muslim forces entered.  Then both the

 8     population and the authorities left the territory of Srebrenica and

 9     arrived in Bratunac in May or so.  I don't know whether they established

10     themselves as such immediately or at a certain point, but they were in

11     Bratunac indeed.

12        Q.   So this body that called themselves authorities in exile, as you

13     recall it, started somewhere - and we're not holding you to that date -

14     May of 1992 and lasted - would I be correct - until approximately July of

15     1995?

16        A.   I really don't know until what time they existed; probably until

17     Srebrenica was liberated and they went back and orders were issued to

18     establish new authorities.  I would presume that up until that time they

19     were in Bratunac and then moved to Srebrenica.

20        Q.   Who were its members?

21        A.   I knew some individuals, but as to the way they were elected,

22     appointed, that I don't know, and I don't know what the authorities

23     consisted of.  Perhaps they followed the same principle as those in

24     Bratunac.  I simply don't know.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry.

Page 33162

 1        A.   I know some of them personally, and I know they were members of

 2     those authorities, but I don't know the entire structure of the bodies.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Keeping that in mind, sir, tell us who they were that you

 4     knew personally who were members of this body that considered themselves

 5     to be "authorities in exile."  Like, for example, your brother-in-law

 6     Miroslav Deronjic, he was a member, wasn't he?

 7        A.   He was not a part of their authorities between 1992 and 1995.  He

 8     was supposed to establish the new authorities once they returned to

 9     Srebrenica.  He was with the authorities in Bratunac.

10        Q.   You've said on page 28, line 3, that you knew some of the

11     individuals, and then you go on to explain that you don't know exactly

12     when they were appointed, what their job -- just name the individuals for

13     us to the best of your recollection that you know were members from

14     sometime in this body called "authorities in exile."  Just list them for

15     me.

16        A.   I will try to recall as many as I can:  Dane Martic; Cvjetinovic,

17     who was the municipal SDS president, I don't know his first name;

18     Delivoje Sorak.  I don't know.  I really don't.  Don't ask me to

19     speculate.  I know their faces, but I no longer remember the names.  If I

20     saw a list, I'd be able to tell you who they were.  In any case, I

21     enumerated those that I can remember.

22        Q.   Sir, let's switch the topic, then, because I don't want to make

23     you any more uncomfortable than you may be answering my questions.  Let's

24     talk about the 13th of July, 1995, if you will.  You gave us an overview,

25     and I summarised it somewhat.  You said from the 12th to the 13th you

Page 33163

 1     were the duty officer, but I remember - and you correct me if I'm wrong;

 2     these are not questions meant to mislead you or to trick you - you went

 3     to bed at about 3.00 that evening, that morning, from the 12th, 3.00 in

 4     the morning, up until the 13th, and you woke up at 7.00.  Do you remember

 5     that?

 6        A.   More or less, it was so.

 7        Q.   Now, focusing our attention from the time-period of 7.00 a.m. on

 8     the 13th, were you at the Bratunac headquarters throughout that entire

 9     day?

10        A.   Which day?  The 12th or --

11        Q.   The 13th.  Thank you for asking for clarification.  The

12     13th of July, starting from 7.00 when you awoke after having slept for

13     four hours.  The 13th, that day.

14        A.   Yes.  I was present at the brigade, although I wasn't at the

15     command all the time.

16        Q.   And we know that.  At one point, sir, you went on the 13th to

17     Potocari; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   And also, at one point that day you went to the

20     Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road in Konjevic Polje; is that correct?  And

21     just to help you, that's when you waited 45 minutes for General Mladic to

22     arrive.  Do you remember that?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   And then -- and then you came back to the Bratunac headquarters,

25     brigade, and then after a little period of time you went back to

Page 33164

 1     Konjevic Polje with Mirko Jankovic and with Mile Petrovic in an APC; is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   And then you went back from Konjevic Polje back to the Bratunac

 5     headquarters; correct?

 6        A.   After a while, yes.

 7        Q.   Well, how long?  How long did it take you to drive that APC from

 8     Bratunac all the way to Konjevic Polje with Mirko Jankovic and

 9     Mile Petrovic?

10        A.   I don't know.  It's 20 kilometres from Bratunac to

11     Konjevic Polje.

12        Q.   Okay.  I know, but -- you can do it by car, but when you do it

13     with an APC you're going awfully slow, are you not?

14        A.   Of course it is slower.  We were moving more slowly, but I don't

15     know exactly how much time --

16        Q.   How often --

17        A.   -- I needed.

18        Q.   Thank you.  How often would Miroslav Deronjic come to the brigade

19     headquarters, the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?

20        A.   Not often.

21        Q.   Did he come to the brigade headquarters on the 13th of July,

22     1995?

23        A.   Well, whether he came -- I didn't see him, but that needn't

24     necessarily mean that he wasn't there.  In any case, I didn't see him.

25        Q.   Did anybody ever tell you, including Miroslav Deronjic, that he

Page 33165

 1     went to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters on the 13th of July?

 2        A.   I really -- maybe there was information to that effect, but I

 3     don't know.  He may have arrived there.  I heard something and -- but it

 4     was such a long time ago that I no longer remember.  I did hear that he

 5     had certain problems with the telephone lines and that at a certain point

 6     he came to the brigade because of that.  Whether that is true or not, I

 7     don't know.  I did hear about that, but I don't know if it's correct.  I

 8     was not there to greet him.  I was not with him.  In any case, it was

 9     supposed to have to do with the problems with the phone lines.  That's

10     what I heard.

11        Q.   You told us briefly that you allegedly got instruction that the

12     people from Potocari would be transported to be temporarily detained in

13     Bratunac on the 12th of July, 1995.  Focusing your attention on the 13th

14     and your trips to Konjevic Polje, I know you spoke to your commander at

15     about 9.30 in the morning on the 13th of July, Colonel Blagojevic.  After

16     going to -- after going to Potocari that first time, returning back to

17     the Bratunac Brigade, with whom did you have any meetings?

18        A.   With Mirko Jankovic and Petrovic, the commander and --

19        Q.   Just so?

20        A.   -- deputy commander of the military police.

21        Q.   I'm not cutting you off, sir.  I'm going to give you all the time

22     you need to help us with this.  That was the second trip to

23     Konjevic Polje.  The first thing in the morning you did, you woke up; you

24     know that Mladic and Krstic were having a meeting.  You had a meeting

25     about Blagojevic at 9.30.  You head off to Potocari, and then you come

Page 33166

 1     back to the Bratunac Brigade, and then from the Bratunac Brigade you go

 2     to Konjevic Polje; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Just sticking with at that period, and just so we're

 5     clear, the meeting you're talking about with Mirko Jankovic and

 6     Mile Petrovic that was the second time you went to Konjevic Polje; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Let's stick with the first one for now, and we'll reach the

 9     second one hopefully.  During this first time that you went to

10     Konjevic Polje, who instructed you to go to Konjevic Polje?

11        A.   No one instructed me in particular.  I simply learned that during

12     that day, perhaps an hour or an hour and a half after -- later,

13     General Mladic was supposed to travel along that route.  Together with a

14     military policeman, I got in a car and went there to check the safety of

15     that road.  There were no particular instructions.  I simply thought that

16     that would fall under my regular tasks.

17        Q.   So up until this point, immediately upon leaving Bratunac

18     headquarters to go to Konjevic Polje, no one gave you the instruction to

19     do that.  Did anyone instruct you to advise the people at Konjevic Polje

20     that they should transport the Bosnian Muslims that were detained to

21     Bratunac?

22        A.   Whether anyone told me or ordered me to, no.

23        Q.   Would it be fair to say that the first time you decided to inform

24     someone to transfer the detained Bosnian Muslims from Konjevic Polje to

25     Bratunac was when you would reach the MUP check-point upon your arrival

Page 33167

 1     at the Konjevic Polje crossroads?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   When -- when did you first make the decision unilaterally to

 4     transfer Bosnian Muslims who were detained in Konjevic Polje to Bratunac?

 5        A.   First of all, I want to say that that was not done unilaterally.

 6     On the 12th already, the places where those detained were supposed to be

 7     kept were known.  On the 12th, in the afternoon, by that time there had

 8     already been some detainees at the Vuk Karadzic school.  As the security

 9     intelligence organ, I was, among other things, to a certain extent -

10     since I wasn't alone in that, but I'm talking about my responsibility - I

11     was tasked with transferring those detainees to the place where a number

12     of Muslim men had already been kept.  As I said in my initial testimony,

13     for a while I had contact with Dusko Jevic.  He was he that I told to the

14     first time that if there were any detainees, any captured, that they

15     should be transferred to the locations where there already were some

16     detainees, and those facilities were being secured.  I believe I listed

17     them before.

18             Of course, never did I dream of what the actual figures of

19     detainees will be.  I did expect some, but not hundreds and up to a

20     thousand.  I didn't know that would happen.  This was not done of my own

21     accord.  It was no decision of me alone.  Simply, all of those who were

22     detained and separated were being brought there.  I don't know see

23     anything illogical about that.

24        Q.   Okay.  You said here in your answer at page 33 that you had

25     contact with Dusko Jevic, and it was he that I told for the first time,

Page 33168

 1     et cetera.  Just so I'm clear, sir, and help me with this, are you saying

 2     that the first person you told that they should transfer the Bosnian

 3     Muslims who were detained in Konjevic Polje to Bratunac was Dusko Jevic?

 4        A.   One could say so.

 5        Q.   And where did you have this meeting with him?  At the MUP

 6     check-point at Konjevic Polje, at any other place, Bratunac?

 7        A.   No.  Dusko Jevic was in Potocari, not along the route you

 8     mention.

 9        Q.   So --

10        A.   Parts of his unit were engaged in Potocari.

11        Q.   So let's go back and just try to clarify this a little.  The

12     morning of the 13th, 1995, you go from Bratunac headquarters to Potocari,

13     you meet Dusko Jevic, and there you tell him, what, that the detainees

14     from Konjevic Polje should be transferred to the Bratunac municipality?

15        A.   We talked, and among other things Dusko Jevic said -- well, we

16     were talking about things in general.  In any case, he said that part of

17     his unit or the unit he belonged to was along that road.  There were no

18     orders or instructions.  I wasn't in any position to order or instruct

19     Jevic.  It was just a conversation in which I told him that all those who

20     would surrender or be detained along that route should be sent to

21     Bratunac.  That was my comment, nothing more than that.

22        Q.   And that's what I want to focus on.  Your comment -- from whom

23     did you learn that "all those who would surrender or be detained along

24     that route should be sent to Bratunac?"  From whom did you gather that

25     information?

Page 33169

 1        A.   It was a well-known thing, sir.  Everyone knew where detainees

 2     should be sent to, at least as the AOR of the Bratunac Brigade is

 3     concerned.

 4        Q.   Well, did you, sir, instruct the MUP at the check-point of

 5     Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road to send the detainees that were captured to

 6     Bratunac?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.  When I arrived there and saw that there were those

 8     captured, I told the members of the MUP there that transport should be

 9     organised and the detained taken to Bratunac.  If we are talking about my

10     first departure there, at that time there was a smaller group of

11     detainees.  There were not many detainees in Konjevic Polje itself.  In

12     any case, I did say to the MUP members that they should transport those

13     detainees to Bratunac.  In any case, there were very few of them at that

14     time.

15        Q.   True or false, Mr. Nikolic:  When you met Dusko Jevic, did you

16     tell him to pass an order to his units which were on the

17     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje that all the captured Muslims on this road be

18     transported to Bratunac?

19        A.   Yes, it is true.  I told him that if he was in contact with all

20     units that may have some detainees, that those detainees can be

21     transferred to Bratunac.

22        Q.   I said to pass an order.  From whom did you receive this order?

23        A.   Well, maybe there was a written order, but --

24        Q.   No, I only think -- because I think the translation was wrong, I

25     don't think -- and I can help you -- sir, I think the translation is

Page 33170

 1     wrong.  That's the only reason I'm interrupt -- they said that maybe

 2     there was an order, but I think you were trying to say something else,

 3     with all due respect, but if you could start from the beginning, and I

 4     apologise for interrupting.

 5        A.   No.  You were talking about me conveying an order.  I told you

 6     what I said, Dusko Jevic.  I may have said something to that effect, but

 7     neither then nor now do I believe I could order Dusko Jevic anything.  It

 8     was simply an information as to what to do with the captured, and this

 9     was the normal way of communicating.  I did not receive any order from

10     anyone what to do.  Nobody told me, Nikolic, you are to convey this to

11     Dusko Jevic.  I simply encountered him, and I thought it necessary to

12     tell him that.  I didn't know that by that time he had some captured, and

13     I simply told him that they should be transferred to the area previously

14     designated for their Assembly.  I believe this was a normal way of

15     communicating between two people working on the same task.

16        Q.   Once you arrived in Konjevic Polje, did you give instructions or

17     direct the people there to transport the Bratunac men -- I'm sorry, the

18     Bosnian Muslim men to Bratunac?  Did you give instructions, and did you

19     direct them to do so?

20        A.   If you believe that it falls under instructions, the thing I told

21     them that the detainees have to be sent to Bratunac, then I can accept

22     that.  The people I knew there, I told them that the captured that they

23     had can be transferred to Bratunac.  Objectively speaking, in

24     Konjevic Polje, in my knowledge there were not sufficient forces or

25     facilities that can be used to secure and keep prisoners.  That's why I

Page 33171

 1     said that.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, just quickly, if I can ask you before the break, do you

 3     remember approximately or specifically, if you do, what time you returned

 4     to the Bratunac headquarters after your second trip to Konjevic Polje

 5     with the APC where you shared with us the story of being with

 6     Mirko Jankovic or -- yeah, Mirko Jankovic and Mile Petrovic?

 7        A.   I went back in the afternoon.  What I remember best would be that

 8     that took place between 5.00, 5.30, 5.45, and 6.00 p.m.  Please don't

 9     hold me to it because it was long ago.  Let's say between 5.00 and 6.00

10     on the afternoon.

11        Q.   One couple -- one last question before the break, sir.  From 5.00

12     up to 8.00 or let's say even 10.00, were you at the Bratunac Brigade

13     headquarters for that entire period of time?  Or you tell me.  I'm sorry.

14     Let me restate the question.  From 5.00 or 6.00 when you claim you

15     returned to the Bratunac headquarters, how long did you stay at the

16     Bratunac headquarters?

17        A.   Between one and a half hours, two hours.

18        Q.   And just to clear this up.  After that one and a half two hours,

19     where did you go?  Where's the next place you went?

20        A.   I didn't go anywhere until I received a call.  I was at the

21     brigade command throughout the whole time until I received the call.

22        Q.   And that's the call that you alleged happened from the

23     communications centre in which you were summoned to go see Mr. Beara in

24     the centre of Bratunac; correct?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 33172

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... thank you.  Its think it's

 2     time for a break.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I think so too.  How much longer do you have,

 4     Mr. Ostojic?

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  It's very difficult to estimate.  I've really taken

 6     out quite a bit.  Sorry.  I think an hour if I can have the Court's

 7     indulgence on that.  I'm not sure how long I've gone so --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  In my mind I would be very reluctant, but we'll

 9     check how long you've been, and we'll come back to you after the break.

10     Thank you.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I know you're going to offer an

15     opinion or give your instructions to my friend as to the amount of time

16     he may have, and just in advance of that, I thought I would let you know

17     that we will not be using three to four hours.  I would expect a

18     realistic estimate at this stage is inside of two hours unless something

19     unforeseen happens.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Thank you.  It doesn't really make a

21     difference in our mind.  Mr. Ostojic had asked -- we had given each one

22     of you two hours.  Mr. Ostojic asked for three.  We are prepared, of

23     course, to grant him the three hours.  You've been already two hours and

24     24 minutes.  Try to stick to the three hours.  If there are a few

25     leftovers and it doesn't involve much more time, we'll try and consider

Page 33173

 1     extending it, but try to finish in three hours, please.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll try my best, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Sir, we were talking about the issue relating to this purported

 4     call that you received to go and see Mr. Beara at the centre of town on

 5     the 13th, but I had -- in my haste in getting to that topic, I omitted to

 6     ask you another question which I'll go back to, and then we'll come back

 7     to this topic that you've alleged.

 8             Now, you said on page 35, lines 4 through 6, and we were talking

 9     at that point, just to put it in context for you, how is it that you were

10     going to Potocari and Konjevic Polje on two occasions talking to the MUP

11     at the check-point then the MUP officers at Konjevic Polje to transfer

12     the detained Bosnian Muslims to Bratunac, and in essence and I know what

13     you've said, and I'm not saying you didn't say other things.  You've

14     said:

15             "Everyone knew where detainees should be sent to at least as the

16     AOR of the Bratunac Brigade is concerned."

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, do you know that there's an intercept that the Prosecution

19     had in its possession which they've declared was exculpatory under

20     Rule 68 where they capture Mr. Beara on the 13th of July, 1995, in

21     essence telling people that the detainees from Nova Kasaba should be

22     transferred to Batkovici?  Do you know about that intercept?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Let me turn back now to the 13th of July, 1995, and this evening

25     -- purported communication that you received.  At any time that evening

Page 33174

 1     prior to receiving that communication was Mr. Miroslav Deronjic at the

 2     Bratunac headquarters?

 3        A.   I didn't see Mr. Deronjic.  A short while ago, I said that I

 4     hadn't seen him.  I didn't have any communication with him.  Whether he

 5     was there or not, I don't know.  I want to make myself quite clear.  The

 6     fact that I didn't see him doesn't mean that he wasn't at the command of

 7     the Bratunac Brigade, but I myself didn't see him.

 8        Q.   Up until that point in time, meaning when you were at the

 9     Bratunac Brigade headquarters before you received this purported call

10     from the communications centre, did you know that there was going to be a

11     transfer of Bosnian Muslims held in Bratunac to another place and/or to

12     Zvornik?

13        A.   No, I didn't know.

14        Q.   What was the code-name for the Bratunac headquarters

15     telecommunications centre?  Do you remember?

16        A.   I think it was Badem.

17        Q.   Well, we think so, too, but I thought you would know more

18     concretely than that.  Yes, it was Badem.

19             Now if we could look at Exhibit P1149A and B, B being the B/C/S

20     version which is typed out and A being the English version.  And as this

21     is coming up, sir, my first question in this regard, have you ever seen

22     this intercept before or this document that identifies a conversation?

23        A.   I can't tell you until I see the document.

24        Q.   We're trying to get it up.  Let me move to another area, and we

25     can come back to this in brief order as long as I get a signal that we've

Page 33175

 1     found it.  Okay.  Sir, they're trying to get the document, and we could

 2     show it to you.  I have a copy, but it has some markings on it.  If it

 3     doesn't work, we'll use my original copy.  Now, in 2004 you gave an

 4     answer to questions --

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's coming.  One moment.  Okay.  Go ahead.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.  And I apologise for the interruption,

 8     but there was a technical hitch, which I think in the meantime has been

 9     solved.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:

13        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, before -- can I ask you, what time was this

14     purported meeting or encounter with Mr. Beara at the centre of Bratunac

15     on the 13th of July, 1995?  And in various testimony, I'll just try to

16     remind you or refresh your recollection, you said it happened at

17     approximately 8.30 p.m.; correct?

18        A.   Yes.  I said between 1500 hours and 8.30, and I really don't

19     remember exactly.  I gave you a rough timing.

20        Q.   In all your prior testimonies, you've concretely said that it was

21     approximately 8.30.  Do you stand by that, or do you think that now it

22     was from 1500 hours --

23        A.   Yes, I do.  I stand by it.

24        Q.   But let's focus on this exhibit which we have in front of us

25     which is -- purports to be an intercept that was captured on or about

Page 33176

 1     July 13th, 1995.  On the top, sir, there's a certain frequency and

 2     channel and a time, and then it talks about the participants, and do you

 3     see the name Badem there?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And do you agree as you sit here that that's the Bratunac Brigade

 6     headquarters; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, as far as I know.

 8        Q.   And this is a conversation that apparently was between

 9     Mr. Deronjic and Dr. Karadzic and actually an intermediary with

10     Dr. Karadzic; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Had you seen this document ever before?

13        A.   Yes, I have.

14        Q.   And now do you remember reading this document and learning that

15     it was Dr. Karadzic and Deronjic who decided that the Bosnian Muslims

16     from Bratunac should be moved?

17        A.   Well, I couldn't exactly deduce that they made that decision at

18     that point exactly, but they did talk about the prisoners detained in

19     Bratunac and about their fate.

20        Q.   You told us, I think, in your testimony on Tuesday that at this

21     12.00 or 12.30 midnight meeting that you allege that you participated in

22     with Deronjic that he was insisting at that point that the Bosnian

23     Muslims from Bratunac be transferred to Zvornik; correct?

24        A.   Yes, he was insisting on that.

25        Q.   To the best of your understanding and recollection, from 8.10 -

Page 33177

 1     which is the time that this conversation was captured - up until this

 2     alleged meeting that you attended at 12.00, 12.30 p.m. on the same day,

 3     given that Mr. Deronjic was insisting that the Bosnian Muslim prisoners

 4     in Bratunac be transferred to Zvornik, when did you learn that

 5     information for the first time?

 6        A.   The information that the prisoners should be transferred from

 7     Bratunac to Zvornik, and that is what I heard for the first time from

 8     Mr. Deronjic.

 9        Q.   Now, according to the document --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name of the

11     person.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think he mentioned Mr. Deronjic, but I stand to

13     be corrected if that's not the case.

14             You heard the information that the prisoners should be

15     transferred from Bratunac to Zvornik the first time from Mr. Deronjic,

16     didn't you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not what I said.  Or

18     maybe I did.  No, no.  I said Colonel Beara, from Colonel Beara.  If I --

19     if I said Colonel Beara, then it was a slip of the tongue.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then you need to clarify this.  The question was as

21     follows:  To the best of your understanding, Mr. Nikolic, and

22     recollection, from 8.10, which was the time this conversation was

23     captured up until this alleged meeting that you said continued at 12.30

24     on the same day, given that Mr. Deronjic was insisting the Bosnian Muslim

25     prisoners in Bratunac be transferred to Zvornik, when did you learn that

Page 33178

 1     information for the first time?  And you answered, according to the

 2     transcript, which you are free to correct, you answered:

 3             "... information that the prisoners should be transferred from

 4     Bratunac to Zvornik, and that is what I heard for the first time from

 5     Mr. Deronjic."

 6             Is this what you said, and is it correct?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  After the meeting with

 8     Mr. Beara.  That's how I understood it, and that's why I responded in

 9     that way.  So after the meeting with Mr. Beara and in that period between

10     20.30 when I met Mr. Beara and the next meeting which took place on the

11     premises of the SDS the same evening, the truth is that I heard from

12     Mr. Deronjic for the first time that he insisted that all the detainees

13     be transferred to Zvornik.  However, before the SDS meeting, I met with

14     Colonel Beara, and it was from him that I heard that the prisoners from

15     Bratunac should be transferred to Zvornik.

16             MR. OSTOJIC:

17        Q.   Our position -- is that clear enough?

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's clear enough if this is what he maintains, but

19     in my mind there are questions, obviously.

20             MR. OSTOJIC:  There are many.  But I think we could --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  And I tried to clarify what the question is because

22     previously, I don't know who was asking you the question, or in your

23     statement -- in your statement attached to your -- related to your plea

24     agreement, you had -- you had told us that there was a meeting between

25     Beara and Deronjic.  You were present nearby.  You're not taking part in

Page 33179

 1     the meeting yourself, but you were present nearby and you could hear the

 2     conversation, and you said that initially there was quite a heated

 3     argument between the two, the argument being that Deronjic didn't want

 4     the prisoners to be transferred to Bratunac or remain in Bratunac while

 5     Beara seemed to be taking that position that they be kept and they be

 6     taken to Bratunac in the first place.

 7             What you have just answered seems to me to be exactly the

 8     opposite, because what you said a minute ago, line 7 on the previous

 9     page, page 44:

10             Yes.  After the meeting with Mr. Beara.  That's how I understood

11     it, and that's why I responded in that way.  So after the meeting with

12     Mr. Beara and in that period between 20.30 when I met Mr. Beara and the

13     next meeting which took place on the premises of the SDS the same

14     evening, the truth is I heard Mr. Deronjic for the first time that he

15     insisted that all detainees be transferred to Zvornik.  However, before

16     the SDS meeting I met with Colonel Beara, and it was from him at that I

17     heard that the prisoners from Bratunac would be transferred to Zvornik."

18             In other words, at the end of this last meeting, do I take it

19     that Mr. Beara agrees, as well, that the prisoners be transferred to

20     Zvornik or not?

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Exactly.  This is what you need to -- since there

23     are two meetings, you need to clarify exactly what the position obtained

24     at the very -- the occasion of the last meeting when you met with

25     Mr. Beara.

Page 33180

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The final position regarding the

 2     detainees and what I heard at the meeting after the discussion was that

 3     all the prisoners should be transferred as quickly as possible from

 4     Bratunac, and I explained the reasons for this position, and the reason

 5     was because there were thousands of people in Bratunac, in the streets,

 6     in the buses, in trucks.  The school was crowded.  Some people were taken

 7     off the buses and killed.  Therefore, there were no conditions to provide

 8     security for them in Bratunac due to this complete chaos that prevailed

 9     there, and ultimately all those who took part in the meeting and who were

10     engaged in this operation decided to transfer them as quickly as possible

11     towards Zvornik or to the facilities located in the area of

12     responsibilities of the Zvornik Brigade.

13             Your Honours, let me just say one more thing.  There was so many

14     illogical things.  There was so much confusion, all kinds of decisions,

15     arguments, misunderstandings and the like.  And believe me, if I make a

16     mistake, I'm really sorry because it is difficult for me to follow all

17     this.  I'm only trying to forget all this because I really had enough,

18     and I'm finding it hard to do what I'm doing here today.  And if I give

19     you a wrong time or a wrong date, please understand that I am also pretty

20     tired.  I will do my best to provide this testimony in the best possible

21     way.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you for that, Mr. Nikolic.

23             Mr. Ostojic.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:

25        Q.   Now, if I could just follow up on some of what you said, although

Page 33181

 1     I agree with the Court that it does seem somewhat inconsistent, and --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  I didn't say inconsistent.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm sorry.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I hope you are sincerely sorry.

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  I thought you said inconsistent, but let me --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no, I didn't.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:

 8        Q.   Let me ask you this:  I think the Court was trying to ask you on

 9     Tuesday, sir, that if you're right and if what you're telling us is the

10     truth, that you had this meeting with Mr. Beara in the centre of town and

11     that he instructed you or told you or informed you that the Bosnian

12     Muslims from Bratunac were going to be transferred to Zvornik, then if

13     you're also telling us the truth - which we dispute, respectfully - that

14     you were at this meeting being at or near or by this meeting, depends on

15     which of your prior testimonies we're going to stick with, with Deronjic

16     and purportedly Mr. Beara in the SDS meeting, and then Mr. Deronjic

17     wanted the prisoners from Bratunac to be transferred to Zvornik, yet you

18     also add in there that Deronjic and purportedly Mr. Beara were in a

19     heated argument as to where the Bosnian Muslims should be transferred to.

20     Don't you find that somewhat illogical if what you're saying in some

21     instances is true, that Mr. Beara allegedly wanted the Bosnian Muslims

22     transferred to Zvornik, Mr. Deronjic wanted the Bosnian Muslims

23     transferred to Zvornik, yet they were arguing and had a heated

24     discussion?

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, okay.  Mr. Nikolic.

Page 33182

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I shall be glad to respond.  The

 2     situation that prevailed on the 11th, 12th, and the 13th, could you

 3     really believe that you could have consistent decisions about something

 4     that is totally in order and that all the orders were clear and

 5     consistent?  It was obvious that the decisions, what to do and how to do

 6     things were changed and made every ten minutes, as far as I know.

 7     Instructions were pouring in.  Orders were pouring in.  Of course, I'm

 8     not talking about written instructions, but there were telephone calls.

 9     There were communications through radio communication lines, and there

10     was a huge influx of information that affected the positions and the

11     decisions on what to do next.  I was trying to describe to you the

12     situation in Bratunac.  There were thousands of people on the streets of

13     Bratunac.  They had been brought in there from that axis, and the people

14     who were supposed to secure them had left, simply left.  The battalions

15     of the Bratunac Brigade were dissolved.  Everybody went home.  Nobody

16     listened to anyone.

17             The same situation prevailed when it came to taking a decision

18     what to do with these people, regardless of the fact that there were many

19     people from the army, from the -- both civilian and army police, from the

20     reserve forces or people who were under work obligation, including

21     civilians armed with rifles.  The situation was horrible.  And as for the

22     status of these prisoners, they made different decisions every half an

23     hour, let's say.  Decisions were made as to what to do with them, who was

24     going to secure them, et cetera.

25             I know that in that context there are some illogical aspects.  In

Page 33183

 1     one evening -- in one meeting, Mr. Beara wanted them to -- these

 2     illogical aspects derived from the previous decisions.  I am trying to do

 3     my best and to help you -- help us all get at the truth and that you get

 4     the picture of the situation that prevailed in Bratunac at the time.  I

 5     know it is very easy in hindsight to say what should have done and what

 6     should have been done according to the law, but that is not what was

 7     happening in reality.  The situation was totally out of control in

 8     Bratunac, in all aspects.

 9             I tried to explain to you why and how these illogical aspects

10     appear.  I am sorry if I didn't manage to explain this in the best

11     possible way and sorry for being such -- sorry for giving you such a long

12     answer.

13             MR. OSTOJIC:

14        Q.   Yes --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic, I would like the witness to repeat what

16     he said after he said, I know in that aspect there were some illogical

17     aspects.  The witness said:

18             "In one evening -- in one meeting, Mr. Beara wanted them to --"

19     and we see some dots.

20             Mr. Momir Nikolic, what did you say in that context?  "In one

21     evening -- in one meeting, Mr. Beara wanted them to --"

22             After that, what did you say?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said, and I stand by it, is as

24     follows:  My first conversation with Mr. Beara took place in the centre

25     of the town.  On that occasion, Mr. Beara conveyed an order for me for

Page 33184

 1     all the prisoners in Bratunac to be transferred to Zvornik.  What

 2     happened afterwards, I can explain.

 3             On that same day, that is the 13th, when I returned from Zvornik,

 4     another meeting was held where I was present and heard what was being

 5     said.  In this meeting, Mr. Beara told Mr. Miroslav Deronjic that he had

 6     instructions for the prisoners to stay in Bratunac.

 7     Mr. Miroslav Deronjic, in this second meeting, insisted that all the

 8     prisoners should go to the territory of Bratunac as soon as possible.

 9     Everything else I can explain further, of course, if I'm asked to do so.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  If I may proceed.

11        Q.   Sir, you described the situation in Bratunac in the evening of

12     July 13th, 1995, as being terrible, thousands of people there.  You've

13     also described it in other testimony that it was chaotic.  It was highly

14     stressful.  There were people everywhere within the town.  Is that

15     accurate still today in your memory?

16        A.   What I said then is something I can explain in detail further,

17     but in principle that's it.

18        Q.   And basically, you said that you wanted us to get the picture,

19     and the picture that you would draw, if permitted - and we will permit

20     you to do that - is that the situation in the town of Bratunac was, as

21     we've said, chaotic.  And I know you could draw other examples from it,

22     but it was a pretty crazy situation at that time, wasn't it?  And we're

23     talking about July 13th, 1995, in the evening.

24        A.   There was disorder, and I agree with you.  We can absolutely call

25     it chaos.

Page 33185

 1        Q.   Well, you called it that, so let's stick with that if you don't

 2     mind.  Now, sir, are you telling us that you want us to believe that you

 3     went in the centre of town during this most chaotic period when there

 4     were people going all over the place, thousands of prisoners, various

 5     people, that you met Mr. Beara in the centre of town alone, allegedly at

 6     8.30?

 7        A.   When I mentioned the chaos, I had in mind the evening of the

 8     13th of July and that night, the whole night.  I was then discussing the

 9     general situation.  However, that was not the same situation that we had

10     at 8.00 p.m.  There were convoys of prisoners coming in during the night,

11     on a large scale.  The situation was chaotic in terms of security of

12     prisoners, new buses arriving, et cetera.

13             As for the town of Bratunac, it's a small town with one hotel

14     with one main road, one Assembly building, the MUP building, and a few

15     houses.  It wasn't difficult to find anyone if you wanted to in the

16     centre of town.  It's no New York.  There's only one main street.  As

17     soon as you leave any of the buildings that I mentioned, you are in the

18     centre of town.  I claim absolutely that you could find anyone if they

19     wanted to be found in the centre of town.

20        Q.   Describe for us what Mr. Beara looked like at this purported

21     meeting in July 13th at 8.00 or 8.30 of 1995.

22        A.   Sir, I know Mr. Beara very well.  If you're asking me to describe

23     his appearance then, I can tell you that he looked pretty much like any

24     other person in uniform, but this was an officer whom I knew excellently

25     well.  Countless times did he come to see me in his official capacity to

Page 33186

 1     Bratunac, and there's no need for me to describe him because I know him

 2     very well.  We sat together numerous times, and I can also tell you that

 3     I hold him in high regard as a person.  Mr. Beara, as any other soldier

 4     in uniform -- well, that's how I know him.

 5        Q.   Here's what you told Peter McCloskey, the OTP Prosecutor, on

 6     page 1743, lines 2 through 6.  He asked you:

 7             "Had you had any contact with Colonel Beara before meeting him

 8     that night in the centre of town on this day or the day before?"

 9             Answer:

10             "No, I never had any contacts with him previously, but I did see

11     him once, I believe on the 13th, in Bratunac, but up to that point I had

12     not been in personal contact with Colonel Beara, no."

13             Do you stand by that sworn testimony, sir?

14        A.   Yes, I stand by it.  I still claim that I did not see Colonel

15     Beara in the course of those few days in Bratunac.  We did not have any

16     contact in Bratunac during those few days.  In any case, there were so

17     many officers from the Main Staff with whom I did not have any contact,

18     and yet they were in Bratunac.  If you want me to be precise, given that

19     you were invoking my notes -- yes, yes, you did.  You used that as

20     arguments, trying to claim something of it was true or not.

21             In great many statements, one can read that Mr. Beara was in

22     Bratunac even before that time.  I don't know if that was the case.  I

23     only know that I did not see him.  I did not have any contact with him in

24     the course of those few days except for the 13th.  As for whether he was

25     here without me seeing him, of course there is that possibility.  There

Page 33187

 1     were many others who were there, but I didn't see them or have contact

 2     with.  If you're asking me what I believe, I can tell you that I believe

 3     Colonel Beara was in Bratunac before the 13th.

 4        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, let's focus on the second meeting.  You're aware --

 5     that's the one at about 12.30 or so at the SDS building where allegedly

 6     you were near the offices of Mr. Deronjic with this purported

 7     conversation that you overheard took place.

 8             You're familiar, are you not, that Mr. Deronjic, during your

 9     sentencing hearing, that he acknowledged that not only could he not

10     remember you, but he said that you were not at this meeting.  Do you

11     remember that?

12        A.   I still claim that I was not in that meeting.  I remember, and I

13     stand by what I said, that I was not one of the participants.

14        Q.   You just happened to be in the next room overhearing the

15     conversations; correct?

16        A.   That is not correct.  Mr. Beara asked me to take him to the SDS

17     office, and I did so.

18        Q.   Did you make an introduction of Mr. Beara to Mr. Deronjic

19     allegedly?

20        A.   I think they had known each other before that.  In any case, I

21     said that that was Colonel Beara, my boss, as I used to refer to him, and

22     that's what I said.

23        Q.   Do you remember having a meeting with Mr. Deronjic here at the

24     United Nations Detention Unit where he confronted you about your alleged

25     involvement or participation in this meeting in December of 2003 and

Page 33188

 1     going into January 2004?  Do you remember that he confronted you and

 2     said, Look, I gave evidence.  I couldn't remember that you were there,

 3     and I told the Prosecution you weren't there, and I don't believe that

 4     you were there.  Why did you come up with this telling me and telling the

 5     Prosecution that you were at that meeting?

 6             Do you remember having that conversation with Mr. Deronjic at any

 7     time?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I had countless conversations with Deronjic.  As

 9     to what he said about us discussing, I really cannot comment on that.  We

10     discussed many issues.  I would have preferred not to have been anywhere

11     near there, including that meeting.  I would be the happiest man without

12     being present at any of the meetings, including the one of the 13th.  I

13     was, however, and as far as I recall Mr. Deronjic confirmed in his

14     testimony that I was in the offices but did not participate in the

15     meeting.  That's what I can recall concerning Deronjic's testimony in my

16     case on this and including this meeting.

17        Q.   Yeah, but isn't it true that you told Deronjic that you weren't

18     there and that you supposedly learned about this meeting allegedly from

19     Mr. Beara at a later time?  Don't you remember that?

20        A.   I don't remember that, and I don't think I ever said anything to

21     that effect.  I truly do not remember.

22        Q.   Well, let's see -- let's see if Mr. Deronjic has it right or if

23     you do or neither of you do.  If we could have P3139 on the e-court,

24     please.

25             And this, sir, was during a closed session that Miroslav Deronjic

Page 33189

 1     gave evidence on in the Blagojevic case, and at that point he's conveying

 2     with Mr. McCloskey leading the charge because he was given that

 3     information --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  It was in closed session?

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  It was at that point, yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  It remains closed session.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  I thought they released it and it's open, but

 8     that's fine.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  It's the 19th of January, 2004, pages 6138 and

11     onward.

12             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I'm looking at the transcripts right

13     now.  I'm trying to find that exact site, but my information is that this

14     was --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic himself concedes that it was in closed

16     session.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  Well, it says so on the first page of this,

18     actually.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you for pointing it out to us.

20             MR. THAYER:  I'm trying to confirm --

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  I can explain, I think, and it was because it was

22     during the same time that Mr. Deronjic pled guilty, and they were

23     actually having some difficulty as to what portion should or should not

24     be open at that point as it may relate to Mr. Nikolic, I believe.  But I

25     think it's all okay to be in public session now, but I'll proceed as the

Page 33190

 1     Court instructs.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't agree with you that it's all okay.  You're

 3     jumping to conclusions.  I just want to make sure whether it's still a

 4     protected piece of evidence.  Yes.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, it is open session.  It has been --

 6     it has been opened.  That portion has been opened.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Then we can proceed.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  And if we could have P31 --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic.

10             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I think that it's fine now.  In the

11     transcript, it says 1335 and 1339.  That's why we have the wrong document

12     on the screen, but I believe my learned friend will correct that.

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  It's P --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Then check that again, Mr.

15     Thayer, and let's proceed.

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  It's P3139, and we've I think put in a couple of

17     pages of that, and if you could turn to page 6 of that document, please,

18     which is in the official trial transcript dated 19th January, 2004, page

19     6138.  Just so the Court can see -- page 6138.  So the next two pages,

20     please.  And towards the bottom on line 22, this is where it begins on

21     closed session, and if we can turn kindly to the next page.  And I'm

22     going to focus our attention on line 16 through 18 of that page where

23     Mr. Deronjic on being questioned by Mr. McCloskey says:

24             "I was supposed to testify in detail about the presence of

25     Mr. Nikolic at that meeting.  During my testimony at the time, I said --

Page 33191

 1     I reiterated my position that I did not recall whether Mr. Nikolic was

 2     present at that meeting or not, but I did leave a theoretical

 3     possibility, more in the sphere of theory, that perhaps he could have

 4     been present, but I did not register that or remember that.  Of course I

 5     was aware of the gravity of my testimony, and I believe that that

 6     testimony had certain implications in other cases ..." et cetera.

 7        Q.   The next page, Mr. Nikolic, for us to focus on really begins at

 8     the top, and that's where Mr. Deronjic says that he met with you at the

 9     UNDU on an occasion during either Christmas or New Year's, and he

10     essentially had a conversation with you about this fact which he

11     disputed.  And it goes on to say, and we can all read it from lines 11

12     and onward or from lines 1 to 23, but I want to focus it in the interest

13     of time, he says at line 10:

14             "And I told him that I would like to know the truth, that I

15     believe that it is very important, and I did not want to have the feeling

16     that I had said something that was not right.  And he ..." meaning you,

17     Mr. Nikolic, "... responded at that point ..."

18             Then Mr. Deronjic goes on to say:

19             "I will try to quote him ..." you, Mr. Nikolic, "... as much as

20     be.  He ..." meaning you, Mr. Nikolic, "... said:  Well, I wasn't there.

21     I wasn't present in the office.  I was really confused.  I said ..."

22     meaning Mr. Deronjic, "... so how could you have talked about the

23     conversation that was conducted at the office, and he said ..." meaning

24     you, Mr. Nikolic, "... that the details and the gist of that conversation

25     he ..." meaning you, Mr. Nikolic, "... learned directly from Mr. Beara."

Page 33192

 1             And it goes on, and we can give that to you, which I'm sure

 2     you've reviewed because in October and September 2007 you were given all

 3     these materials to look at and review in preparation for your testimony.

 4     Is Mr. Deronjic being truthful here?  Did you meet with him, first of

 5     all, at Christmas, New Year's at the UNDU from 2003/2004 period?

 6        A.   The only thing I claim, that the fact that I wasn't there is not

 7     true, everything else concerning Mr. Momir [as interpreted] Deronjic

 8     said.  It's not something that I can offer any comment on as to what he

 9     thinks of that meeting.  I state that I was in the offices of the SDS

10     when the meeting was taking place and that I heard what the participants

11     said.  That's what I assert.  I know what it was they discussed.  I know

12     how the meeting developed, and I know the details to the extent I could

13     overhear.  I have already testified about that, and I'm ready to repeat

14     everything I previously said concerning that meeting.

15             I also wanted to say another thing.  Mr. Deronjic, Miroslav, that

16     evening, as well as your client - I'm sorry to have to say this - both of

17     them were drunk.  They were not aware of the things they were saying or

18     doing.  I'm sorry to have to say this, but I have to.  You want me -- you

19     want to picture me as a person with amnesia.  Deronjic and your client in

20     particular was drunk.  He had no idea what he was doing.  It wasn't the

21     first time round.  It was the 50th time round.  Whenever I saw him, he

22     was drunk.  I can put my life on it and say -- when I say that I was

23     there.  I overheard the discussion.  I can repeat that.  It was ugly,

24     abusive.  When the whole thing was over, they sat down and continued

25     discussing things much more calmly, and again, they had a drink, both.  I

Page 33193

 1     know everything they said at the meeting.  I know the details, and I know

 2     what followed.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, you say that Mr. Beara was drunk every time that you

 4     saw him allegedly.  Was he also drunk according to you, sir?  I don't --

 5     you said something, and I didn't want to cut you off.  What did you say?

 6        A.   I said, pardon me?  I didn't hear what you said.

 7        Q.   I thought I heard you say "slazem se," that you agreed up to that

 8     point to it.  But in any event, my question is you say that Mr. Beara was

 9     drunk --

10        A.   No, no.

11        Q.   You say that Mr. Beara was drunk every time that you saw him,

12     allegedly.  Was he also drunk, sir, when you claim that you saw him at

13     8.30 in the centre of town during the chaotic period in Bratunac on the

14     13th of July, 1995?

15        A.   He was always inebriated, drunk to a point.  He was always

16     semi-drunk.

17        Q.   So is that a yes to my question that at 8.30 on the 13th of July

18     in the centre of town, Mr. Beara was drunk?

19        A.   No.  I am not stating that.  I wasn't trying to analyse him in

20     the two minutes while he was giving me the task.  At this meeting,

21     however, where I was, he was very tipsy, drunk, actually, both he and

22     Nikolic [as interpreted].  After they had that fight, they finally sat

23     down and started talking more calmly but having a drink alongside that.

24     When I saw him prior to that, I did not try to analyse him.  There was no

25     time.  He simply said what he had.  I left to do it, and that's it.  I'm

Page 33194

 1     not stating that he was drunk at 7.30 or 8.00 when I saw him.

 2        Q.   Well, look --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just for the record.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Just to be fair to one of our accused as well.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Line 24, "Nikolic" should read "Deronjic."

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:

 7        Q.   Sir, let's just be fair about this for one moment.  You're now

 8     moving the time-frame that you saw Mr. Beara purportedly in the centre of

 9     Bratunac.  Consistently when you've given testimony before you've already

10     said it was 8.30.  Now you said maybe 8.00 to 8.30.  Now you've kind of

11     moved it to 7.30, 8.00.  As you sit here, can we finally have your best

12     recollection as to when you claim you saw Mr. Beara in Bratunac in the

13     centre of the town on the 13th of July, 1995?

14        A.   I'm trying not to assert that I know what the exact time was

15     because I don't know.  No one would be capable in such a pace of events

16     to tell you whether something took place half an hour earlier or later.

17     No one could do that.  In my view, it is more important what happened or

18     whether it happened 30 minutes before or later.  That's why I'm

19     intentionally not being that precise because I simply don't know what the

20     time was.  However, I'm trying to picture the event the way I saw it.  I

21     stand by what I said.  I'm not certain about the time.  It could have

22     been half an hour, three-quarters of an hour before that, or ten minutes

23     later.  That's what I'm trying to say.

24        Q.   And that's why I was trying to place it in a time-frame for you,

25     if it was before or after this conversation that Mr. Deronjic had with

Page 33195

 1     Dr. Karadzic and his intermediary at 8.10 or 20.10 hundred hours on the

 2     13th of July, 1995.  But be that as it may, in the -- when you gave

 3     answers to the commission in 2004, your handwritten answers, you write

 4     on -- with respect to paragraph 5 or question 5 the following, among

 5     other things.  I want to read it to you.  I want to see if you still

 6     stand by it:

 7             "The civilian authorities ..."

 8             Maybe I should just -- it's on Exhibit P4477.  Thank you.  It's

 9     on page 7 of that document, answer to question number 5.  In part, you

10     say:

11             "The civilian authorities played a special and central role in

12     the planning, decision-making, and organisation of the forces -- of the

13     forced relocation of the civilians from Potocari to the Muslim-controlled

14     territory Kladanj.  Their decisive role in this phase was manifested from

15     the top, from President Karadzic via Miroslav Deronjic, the civilian

16     affairs commissioner who was appointed to that post on Karadzic's

17     personal order and the representatives -- representatives of the judicial

18     and executive authorities of the Bratunac and Srebrenica municipalities.

19     The authorisation and tasks of Commissioner Deronjic and the civilian

20     authorities can be seen in Karadzic's orders, which exist as evidence."

21             There's more to the answer, but I want to focus on this paragraph

22     now, just to be fair.  Do you remember saying that, sir, and writing

23     that?

24        A.   Yes, of course.

25        Q.   So when you say they played a special and central role, what do

Page 33196

 1     you mean, that the civilian authorities played a special and central

 2     role?

 3        A.   I can explain.  The information I have is the following:  The

 4     civilian authorities, including Miroslav Deronjic, as SDS president and

 5     commissioner appointed by Mr. Karadzic; then Srbislav Davidovic who was

 6     president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac;

 7     then Mr. Simic as the Assembly speaker of Bratunac; then

 8     Miodrag Josipovic and Dragomir Vasic.  You'll ask me why I include these

 9     two in the civilian structures.  In my deep belief and what I'm certain

10     of is that members of the civilian structures, including

11     Miroslav Deronjic, were the ones who had it under control and regulated

12     everything concerning the engagement of the military police, and they did

13     that with Mr. Miodrag Josipovic.  Their participation [Realtime

14     transcript read in error, "partial"] and influence at such meetings and

15     everything that resulted from the authorities Mr. Deronjic had based on

16     his appointment as commissioner in and of itself provided Deronjic with a

17     lot of authority, and from that position he could even use force, police

18     force if anything needed to be done, regulated, or requested, and this

19     also entails the use of military force to resolve a problem.  Therefore,

20     his influence was great.

21             There were the armed forces there, and I have in mind the

22     officers of the Main Staff and the corps command, because they jointly

23     participated in the making of all decisions concerning the status of

24     detainees, civilians, and all those in the territory of Bratunac

25     municipality.  That is that in brief, and I still claim that

Page 33197

 1     Miroslav Deronjic, the civilian authorities, and those belonging to them

 2     had great influence and that to a large extent they influenced the

 3     decisions that went through Miroslav Deronjic up to President Karadzic

 4     and the other way around.  That is what I think, and I'm certain that

 5     they participated in the meetings and arrangements having to do with the

 6     status of detainees, and there are, of course, documents that can

 7     corroborate that.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

 9             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to correct the

10     transcript.  On page 61, line 10, the first word is "partial," and the

11     witness was talking about participation, participation of these people to

12     the meetings, and it wasn't "partial."

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Sir, also you state that Miroslav Deronjic was the superior

16     officer of the Zvornik CJB, public security centre; senior officer,

17     Dragomir Vasic.  Is that correct?  And it's on page 8 of the exhibit that

18     we're discussing, P4477.

19        A.   Yes.  Perhaps this is not a very happy solution and wording

20     because it doesn't reflect what I actually thought.  What I think is that

21     during that period, Miroslav Deronjic, as the commissioner entrusted with

22     the organisation of civilian authorities in Srebrenica on the authority

23     of the president, and Mr. Vasic was in charge of setting up police forces

24     in the newly liberated municipality, that led me to believe that

25     Mr. Deronjic was superior to Mr. Vasic because setting up of civilian

Page 33198

 1     authorities was within the remit of Mr. Deronjic.  And when it comes to

 2     command or military terms, I don't think that he was a superior officer

 3     to Mr. Vasic in that sense.

 4        Q.   Well, neither were in the military at that point, I believe, but

 5     nonetheless, do you remember that there was a meeting at approximately

 6     8.30 on July 13th, 1995, between Vasic and Mirkovic to discuss the

 7     removal of the Bosnian Muslims who were murdered at the Kravica

 8     warehouse?

 9        A.   Yes, if we are referring to the same things.  If not, then please

10     correct me.  What I know is that sometime on the 13th this meeting took

11     place, but I cannot tell you anything more than that.  I had this

12     information that that kind of meeting had taken place, but after the

13     tragedy in Kravica.  Whether this meeting was held then or not, or

14     whether it was held or -- at all or not, I cannot confirm.

15        Q.   Can you --

16        A.   I heard the information that it was -- it happened in the public

17     security station in Bratunac.

18        Q.   And I just wanted to ask you, you weren't at that meeting, were

19     you?  Obviously not.  Okay.  Now I want --

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21        Q.   -- to go back to a document quickly that was covered in part

22     during your cross-examination by my learned friend Mr. -- I'm sorry,

23     Mr. Nikolic.  I jumped the gun here.  They didn't get your answer.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  He needs to repeat it.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  Right.

Page 33199

 1        Q.   If you want, I can restate the question just so it's clear, but

 2     you can answer, sir.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  The question was:

 4             "I just wanted to ask you, you weren't at that meeting, were you?

 5     Obviously not."

 6             Were you at that meeting or not?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   I want to turn to a document that you looked at yesterday

10     briefly, and that was 1D382.  And, sir, you were given a copy, and this

11     is an order dated the 2nd of July, 1995, from the Drina Corps to the

12     Bratunac Brigade.  There's a related document, just so the Court has it

13     and we have it in the record, P3025, and you remember the document and

14     the Drina Corps had some handwriting on that document and that you were

15     asked if that was your handwriting, et cetera.  Do you remember that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   My learned friends from the Office of the Prosecution were kind

18     enough to bring the original document, and I'd like with the Court's

19     permission to tender that document to you and focus your attention

20     specifically on the page where there's evidence in this case that this

21     may be your handwriting, sir, and if you could take a look at that for us

22     one more time just so that the record's clear that you looked at the

23     original document and so we could have your sworn testimony on that.  And

24     we're tendering it to the -- Madam Usher, and she will focus your

25     attention on that.

Page 33200

 1        A.   [In English] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.  Okay.  Okay.  [Interpretation] No,

 2     this is not my handwriting.

 3        Q.   And you seem certain of that; correct?

 4        A.   It seems so.

 5        Q.   I just want to quickly, if I could, again, with the Court's

 6     assistance and the assistance of the usher, put this, which is an

 7     in-house document that we created after his testimony on this, just to

 8     see whether or not his handwriting matches.  I know it's not an official

 9     handwriting expert, but we wanted to at least get a preliminary -- or

10     have his opinion on that based on at least this preliminary analysis that

11     was conducted.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  That's it, yeah.  Oh, yes, please, and show it to

13     the Prosecution.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic, before we decide on whether to allow

16     you to put this question as you've presented it, what do you mean by "an

17     in-house document we created after his testimony ..."?

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, and I can explain that in detail.  Your

19     Honour, after his testimony we were given with the Court's permission his

20     personal notes and records.  We didn't learn until his testimony I

21     believe yesterday that he denied this entry on the document from the

22     Drina Corps, and what we did was had a group of the Defence staff look at

23     his handwritten notes and pick out the exact same word and just make a

24     comparison, word underneath word, based on the handwriting that was on

25     the Drina Corps document and those exact words that appear in his

Page 33201

 1     handwritten notes that was tendered.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Listen, Mr. Ostojic, in Oric I had counsel stand up

 3     and say, You know, my legal assistants - one of the girls who were -- who

 4     were working with him - can copy Oric's signature to perfection.  Here it

 5     is.  There is a page with about 10, 20 signatures.

 6             So what?  Let's move.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  That's fine.  We can move on.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  If I could just get the original

10     retrieved and returned to the Prosecution so that that chain of custody

11     is completed.

12        Q.   Sir, I'm going to tell you this because the Court and the rules

13     here suggest that I should put my case to you.  We suggest, sir, that

14     that meeting with Mr. Beara where you saw him alone in the middle of the

15     Bratunac centre at 8.00 or 8.30 or whatever time it was on July 13th,

16     1995, never happened.  In fact, we brought evidence, sir, that Mr. Beara

17     was in Belgrade during that time and that the reason, sir, you're not

18     telling us the truth, and I don't mean to insult you, but the reason

19     you're not telling us the truth is because you're bitter and angry at the

20     sentence that you received, and the first time that you ever disclosed

21     any facts in connection with Mr. Beara and these purported meetings and

22     specifically this purported meeting on the 13th of July at 8.00 or

23     8.30 p.m. was during and after your plea negotiations.  What do you have

24     to say to that?

25        A.   You know, sir, you have the right to think what you want to think

Page 33202

 1     and, of course, to defend your client.  What I said, I stand by it.  In

 2     the statements that I made lies the whole truth.  Everything that you

 3     said now would be all right, and I would be the happiest man in the world

 4     if it hadn't happened, but it did happen.  No matter how strongly you try

 5     to deny that your client had any role and involvement in all this, I put

 6     it to you that the involvement and the responsibility of your client in

 7     this operation is ten times that of mine.

 8             Why did I accept, and why am I embittered?  Of course I am

 9     embittered, and I am not trying to hide that, but at the same time I'm

10     also a brave man.  Regardless of how this might be difficult for me and

11     the people around me, my family, I really want to tell the truth about

12     who did what and whose role was in this heinous crime, without sparing

13     myself either.  If I'm not going to spare myself, then rest assured that

14     I'm not going to spare your client either.

15             There are some other men here who I respect very much, and I am

16     willing to do anything for them.  One of those men is Mr. Borovcanin.  I

17     would donate blood or my organs to him if necessary.

18             I am not saying that we are the best of friends.  We never

19     socialised, but there are people who are honourable and honest officers

20     and the people who enjoy my respect.  But they experienced what they

21     experienced, and they have to face the consequences of what had happened

22     to them.

23             I am telling the truth here in the best possible way.  Perhaps

24     I'm not very skilful in expressing myself, but I am doing my best to be

25     helpful.  I still maintain that everything that happened, and

Page 33203

 1     unfortunately, if there hadn't been any victims and if there hadn't been

 2     any crime, you could -- could have told to me, Mr. Nikolic, you are

 3     lying, you don't know anything.  However, the killings took place, and

 4     everything happened.  Whether it happened one hour earlier or later,

 5     whether it happened at 8.00 p.m. or 9.00 p.m. on the 13th is completely

 6     irrelevant.  I am trying to help the Chamber to arrive at the truth.

 7     They should know that a crime had happened, and I shall always be willing

 8  to respond to any call from the Trial Chamber.  I am very sorry that the OTP

 9  perceived my behaviour as hostile, but I was not feeling well. However, I am

10  now feeling well, and I am ready and willing to help the Prosecution and the

11  Trial Chamber in any future proceedings, provided they invite me to do so,

12  of course.  And please, I am not embittered against the people who are

13     sitting up there in the dock.  I'm only trying to say and describe what I

14     saw and to pass on to you the information that I have.

15        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Nikolic, you --

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  Ms. Fauveau.

17             MS. FAUVEAU:  The witness just said on page 68, line 1 and 2, [In

18     English] [Previous translation continues]... continue to have the Trial

19     Chamber and the Prosecution.  [Interpretation] These are the exact words

20     of the -- of the witness.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Okay, let's proceed.

22             MR. OSTOJIC:

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, if you were so truthful and honest, why didn't you

24     tell the Prosecution prior to your meetings for your plea negotiations

25     any of this evidence you claim you had relating to these purported

Page 33204

 1     meetings with Mr. Beara on the 13th of July?  Why hadn't you offered that

 2     to them in 1999 when you met with them and gave an interview?

 3        A.   In 1999, I simply wasn't ready to talk about any of those things.

 4     That was immediately after the war, so four years after the war.  The

 5     overall situation in Republika Srpska at that time and in the area where

 6     I live was terrible.  Any statements, any confession of guilt at that

 7     time would have been totally unacceptable then, and for the sake of my

 8     family and their safety, I didn't want to go down that road.  Quite

 9     simply, the circumstances were not good for that.  People were still

10     losing lives, and I was fearing for my life and the lives of my dearest

11     and nearest.  That is why I didn't want to speak about that so soon after

12     the war.

13        Q.   So during these three or four or so meetings that you had with

14     the Prosecution once you wanted to accept and acknowledge your

15     responsibility - although modified, as we've seen - that was the first

16     time that you actually told them about Mr. Beara.  Would that be correct?

17        A.   I really wouldn't like to manipulate with this and to commit

18     myself as to when was the first time I spoke about this with the OTP.  We

19     had numerous meetings, and I don't want to guess when was the first time

20     that I told the OTP about any event.  We went back again and again on --

21     to certain events.  We debated things.  We discussed them.  Of course

22     there were disagreements.  There was lack of understanding because we

23     really talked on numerous occasions about everything, and I can't give

24     you the dates.

25        Q.   And just to be fair, the reason I'm asking you, Mr. Nikolic, is

Page 33205

 1     because none of those meetings that you had with the Prosecution where

 2     you purportedly or seemingly mentioned Mr. Beara, they weren't recorded.

 3     There was no transcript of those meetings during your plea negotiations

 4     or any of that, and since you were there I thought you might be able to

 5     tell me if it happened in the early part, the middle part, or the latter

 6     part of your plea negotiations with the Prosecution that you mentioned

 7     this alleged encounter with Mr. Beara.  But if you don't recall, you --

 8     you can tell us.

 9        A.   I kindly ask you not to insist on this because I simply don't

10     know.

11        Q.   Now, you're also aware that Mr. Deronjic pled guilty at or about

12     the same time that you did; correct?

13        A.   I said that yesterday.

14        Q.   It was a foundational question.  Thank you.  Did you discuss with

15     Mr. Deronjic at the UNDU his process and his deliberation on seeking to

16     have a plea negotiation with the Prosecution?

17        A.   I have to tell you something that you probably don't know.  I'm

18     not at all close with Miroslav Deronjic regardless of the fact that he

19     had married a cousin of mine.  All those who know both of us know that as

20     well.

21             Miroslav Deronjic didn't see me as a person with whom he can talk

22     and confide in, nor did I perceive him in that way.  All our

23     conversations were actually short encounters because we were not actually

24     residing in the same part of the unit.  Therefore, we never discussed

25     either his agreements with the OTP or my agreements.

Page 33206

 1        Q.   But you must be aware, Mr. Nikolic, that the first time that

 2     Deronjic ever told his tale of this purported meeting with Mr. Beara was

 3     just prior to his plea agreement in 2003.  And if counsel needs a

 4     reference, it's at page 1571; October 28th, 2003.  You're aware of that.

 5        A.   As far as Mr. Deronjic's process and negotiations are concerned,

 6     I -- I know nothing.  I don't know how these negotiations went.  I don't

 7     know any details involved.  I absolutely know nothing because I never had

 8     an opportunity to read any document from the -- Deronjic's plea agreement

 9     with the exception of the documents provided to me by the OTP.

10        Q.   And I'm trying to be fair to you, Mr. --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Are you approaching the end, Mr. --

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  I am.  I am.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, because it's --

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, I am.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- almost three hours and a half now.

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Sir, but that's not entirely accurate, and I'm trying to be fair

18     to you, because at your sentencing hearing Mr. Deronjic testified, and

19     here's what was asked.  You were present.  Here's what was asked on the

20     28th of October, 2003, at page 1571 by Mr. McCloskey, I believe:

21              To Mr. Deronjic:

22             "Is it fair to say that the first time you ..." I add the

23     parentheses, (Mr. Deronjic) "... told the OTP that Beara had actually

24     talked to you ..." again, parentheses, (Mr. Deronjic) because he's the

25     one who's giving evidence, "... personally about the killing Muslim

Page 33207

 1     prisoners was in your recent interviews just prior to the guilty plea?"

 2             Answer by Mr. Deronjic, in front of you, sir, while you were

 3     there:

 4             "Yes, that's correct.  That's what I said in my last interview,

 5     and he stood by it."

 6             You don't remember that at all, that he like you, sir, the first

 7     time Mr. Beara's name ever was mentioned despite the prior interviews or

 8     contacts you had with the Office of the Prosecution and this tale that

 9     you and Mr. Deronjic created was only during your plea negotiation in

10     order for you to get a lighter sentence; isn't that true?

11        A.   No.  I don't want to comment the statements made by Mr. Deronjic

12     at all.  I don't want to make any comments on that.  I can only comment

13     my statements and what I wrote down.  I cannot and I do not wish to make

14     comments about anyone's statement why he said what he said and why he did

15     what he did.  My statement is what you heard from me today, and I stand

16     by it.  You can interpret in any way you wish.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  Mr. President, I based on the time constraints will

18     stop here, but I did have several other areas that I could address with

19     the Court after the witness finishes that I would have liked to ask the

20     witness questions on, specifically, that comment I see from my notes, are

21     the Dragomir Vasic documents where he describes the role of the civilian

22     police in both Potocari, Bratunac, and Zvornik, but I'm adhering to the

23     Court's ruling, and I'll have no further questions at this time.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Do you prefer to start immediately,

25     Ms. Nikolic, or do you wish to have the break now?

Page 33208

 1             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it would be

 2     more appropriate to have a break now and give some time to Mr. Nikolic to

 3     recuperate.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then we have 25 minutes' break.  Thank you.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I saw you standing, Mr. Ostojic.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just wanted to thank

 9     the Court for giving me the additional time that you did, and it's very

10     much appreciated.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's very nice of you to say that.  Thank you.

12             Ms. Nikolic.

13             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Nikolic.

16        A.   Good afternoon.

17        Q.   My name is Jelena Nikolic.  I appear on behalf of

18     Mr. Drago Nikolic.  It means that there are four Nikolics in this

19     courtroom alone.

20        A.   Yes.  Unfortunately, it seems that there's very many of us.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's a good sign.  I mean, my surname in Malta

22     accounts to something like 50.000 people, and that's -- it has always

23     been a positive sign to me.  We are prolific.

24             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, in order for the two of us to understand each other

Page 33209

 1     well, since we speak the same language, I will caution you and myself to

 2     wait to finish each other's questions and answers so that we could have

 3     an accurate transcript.  Do you agree with me?

 4        A.   Certainly.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  On the 22nd of April, 2009, when you were being

 6     examined by my learned friend Mr. Zivanovic, you said that among the

 7     officers of the Zvornik Brigade you knew Drago Nikolic.  Can you tell me,

 8     how long did you know him and in what way, personally or professionally?

 9        A.   I knew Drago Nikolic as a person who hails from the same

10     municipality as I do.  Privately speaking, we did not socialise.  We did

11     not know each other, had any contact of that type.  In our official

12     capacities, we seldom met, barely ever, during the war, save for

13     accidental meetings at the corps command at this or that meeting, but it

14     was seldom.  Nothing in particular to say.  Nothing official, I'd say.  I

15     knew him as a person born in the village of Kravica, that he resided

16     there and had family.  That was the extent of me and Drago Nikolic's

17     acquaintance.

18        Q.   And I suppose you know Mr. Nikolic's family from Kravica, at

19     least by sight?

20        A.   If you mean his immediate family, I don't.  I may have seen them

21     or met him -- met them, but I don't think I know Drago Nikolic's

22     immediate family members.  The Nikolic family in Kravica is a large one,

23     and most of them I know by sight, and some of them even personally.

24        Q.   What about Mr. Nikolic's parents and brothers?

25        A.   I think I saw them on occasion, but I didn't pay much heed.  I

Page 33210

 1     did not have any contact with any members of his family.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Before the 13th of July, 1995, did you on occasion go

 3     to the Zvornik Brigade, to any meetings with the security organ there,

 4     Mr. Drago Nikolic?

 5        A.   I cannot be precise.  I don't know which period you have in mind

 6     exactly, but what I can recall best is that on one occasion I was in the

 7     Zvornik Brigade to attend a workshop or training session.  I am not sure.

 8     In any case, I can confirm to you that at least on one occasion I went to

 9     the offices of the Zvornik Brigade.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to go to July 1995 next, the period

11     between the 11th of that month and the following days.  Did you have any

12     telephone or other type of communication with the Zvornik Brigade or

13     Drago Nikolic?

14        A.   I am certain that there was no communication with Drago Nikolic.

15     I did not see him in the course of those few days, as regards the

16     Bratunac Brigade, that is, and the part that has to do with Bratunac and

17     Srebrenica.  I'm positive we did not speak over the phone, Drago Nikolic

18     and I, or anyone else from the Zvornik Brigade, for that matter.  I don't

19     think there were any conversations before that either, because there was

20     no need for me to contact them.

21        Q.   Therefore, we may conclude that in the period between the 11th

22     and the 13th of July, you did not see Drago Nikolic in Bratunac.

23        A.   That is correct.  I didn't see him in Bratunac.

24        Q.   As of the 13th of July, and I mean July, August, September, you

25     did not have any contact with Drago Nikolic by phone or any other way,

Page 33211

 1     and I mean 1995.

 2        A.   No.  That is correct.

 3        Q.   I'd like to talk about your alleged conversation with Drago

 4     Nikolic at the forward command post of the Zvornik Brigade in the night

 5     of the 13th of July, 1995.  You have testified extensively about that,

 6     and I will not go back to the details.

 7             At page 32 -- 937, lines 20 to 23 you explained to the Chamber

 8     what the context was of the message you conveyed to Drago Nikolic, that

 9     is to say that the people who had been separated and kept in Bratunac

10     were to be transferred to Zvornik, and that it was his task to have the

11     location ready to receive the prisoners.

12             You referred to it in similar terms in the Trbic case, but I

13     would like to quote that part of the text to you and then put a question.

14     For my learned friends, it is P4482, page 25 in the B/C/S; in the

15     English, 63.

16             In answering Mr. Trbojevic's [phoen] question you said:  Yes,

17     that's how it was.  That's what I told Drago, that I had information that

18     the people who had been captured and who were going to be transferred to

19     Zvornik, that they would be killed.  That's what I told him, meaning that

20     was the information I had.  That is what I knew, and that was my

21     assessment.  I shared that with him.

22             Defence:  Did he anything say concerning your remark?  Did he say

23     anything?

24             Witness:  Well, he didn't.  He was simply beside himself.  He

25     neither commented the arrival of the prisoners nor anything of what I

Page 33212

 1     told him.  He said very well, Nidzo.  You conveyed the order, and I

 2     simply did not offer any further comment.

 3             Do you recall this, Mr. Nikolic?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Given Drago Nikolic's reaction as you described it in the Trbic

 6     case, he was quite taken aback by the message you conveyed to him.

 7        A.   I just want to confirm that what you said more or less was what I

 8     told him on that occasion.  Of course he was surprised, and I can confirm

 9     that because I'm being asked of that.  He was surprised because I suppose

10     until that point he wasn't aware of what was going on and what was to be

11     the further stages of the operation.  What you read basically fully

12     accurately reflects Drago Nikolic's reaction at that point in time.

13        Q.   Given your answer about his surprised reaction, you were able to

14     conclude that you were the first person to tell him that.

15        A.   Well, I wasn't thinking about whether I was the first person to

16     tell him that or not.  However, I do suppose that I was the first person

17     to convey to him the message that those captured in Bratunac were to be

18     transferred to the area of the Zvornik Brigade.  I suppose I was the

19     first person to tell him that.  Whether he had any other knowledge or

20     not, I cannot say.

21        Q.   Your conversation with Drago was a brief one, as you testified,

22     five to ten minutes.

23        A.   Not even that long.  It was very brief.  I did not enter the

24     forward command post building, and I had no other business there.  I came

25     there, turned my car around, got out, told him that, got back into the

Page 33213

 1     car with the policeman and left.  It may have lasted five, six, or seven

 2     minutes at the most, or perhaps ten, not even.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I will go back to these details later.  I would like

 4     to answer the following:  What you said in the Blagojevic case as well as

 5     in the Trbic case, the portion I just read out to you, as well as the

 6     things you said to the Bench here today, that is fully accurate of what

 7     you and Drago Nikolic spoke about that day.  There was nothing beyond

 8     that that Drago Nikolic told you.

 9        A.   No, I think that's correct.  Perhaps there may have been one

10     sentence in a testimony or a statement of mine, and that is that before I

11     got back in the car Drago told me that he was to see with his command

12     what was to follow, what to do with what I told him.  That was the only

13     sentence extra, and Drago and I did not discuss this or any other matter

14     later on.

15        Q.   Drago therefore never mentioned to you that he had information

16     that the captured people were to come to Zvornik.

17        A.   No, and I never said so.  That was how the conversation

18     developed.  That was our first and last encounter.  We never saw each

19     other after that.

20        Q.   Drago Nikolic never told you that he had allegedly spoken with

21     Colonel Popovic or Obrenovic on that subject.

22        A.   When I saw him?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   No, he didn't.  I don't remember ever having said anything

25     similar.

Page 33214

 1        Q.   And, of course, on the 13th of July you never told Drago Nikolic

 2     that the Zvornik Brigade was supposed to execute those prisoners.

 3        A.   I said what I said and the way you read it.

 4        Q.   And nothing beyond that.

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   Including that the Zvornik Brigade was supposed to carry out the

 7     executions of the prisoners.

 8        A.   I didn't say it because I didn't know.

 9        Q.   After that, you left the area.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   After your departure, during that night Drago remained at the

12     forward command post; is that so?

13        A.   I don't know that.

14        Q.   At the moment of your departure ...

15        A.   If you're asking me about that moment, then, yes, Drago Nikolic

16     stayed at that place where I had found him.

17        Q.   He did not go back with you?

18        A.   He did not.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic and Mr. Nikolic, please try not to

20     overlap.  Just allow a brief pause between question and answer.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and I

23     apologise to the interpreters.

24        Q.   Now a few general questions concerning the relationship between

25     the military police and the security organ.  You discussed that during

Page 33215

 1     Mr. Thayer's examination, as well as in your previous testimonies.

 2             Did you command the MP platoon in the Bratunac Brigade?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did you issue direct orders to them in July 1995 and to

 5     Mirko Jankovic who was the MP platoon commander in the Bratunac Brigade?

 6        A.   Directly, no, I did not issue orders to the MP commander.

 7        Q.   In which way did you do it, then, and what was the relationship

 8     between the security organ and the military police in July 1995?

 9        A.   Direct command and control of the military police, since you're

10     asking about command, is in the hands of an officer of the unit within

11     which the MP unit is per establishment or attached to.  Speaking in the

12     military professional terms, an MP platoon or military police in general

13     is controlled by the security organ, in professional terms.  This does

14     not entail direct and immediate issuance of orders.

15             The commander of the unit within which the MP unit is contained

16     is the only person, the only officer who can issue orders to the military

17     police through their MP platoon commander, and to military policemen

18     directly, it can only be done by the MP platoon commander.  He can issues

19     direct tasks to them.

20             In professional terms, professional control means equipping,

21     training, and following the state of combat readiness of that unit.  The

22     security organ, among other things, is tasked with taking care of the

23     readiness of the MP unit at any point in time so as to be at the full

24     disposal of the commander of the unit attached to.

25             In brief, that would be the relationship between the military

Page 33216

 1     police and the security organ.  If you're interested in anything else,

 2     please ask me and I'll explain.

 3        Q.   As a security organ, if you needed to use the military police for

 4     a specific task, were you allowed to single out policemen and take them

 5     to carry out this task, or did you have to seek approval from their

 6     commander?

 7        A.   I was able, and I did take part in making proposals to the

 8     commander about the ways in which he should use the military police.

 9     That is one of the tasks of a security organ.  But, of course, before the

10     commander makes a decision how to use the military police, it was no

11     place for me to take a decision, to pick ten policemen and take them into

12     the field.  That is to say, pursuant to the decision made by the

13     commander to use a unit for a specific task, the unit commander and the

14     commander of the military police decides the schedule, decides the size

15     and the composition of the unit, and from the professional point of view,

16     if it is necessary to have cooperation with the security organ, then he

17     would seek such cooperation.  And if the security organ, vice versa,

18     decides that he should offer assistance, then he should be the one to

19     provide this professional assistance to the military police.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you one more question about these general

21     matters relating to your job as the security organ.  How independent were

22     you as a security organ of the brigade in discharging your duties, and in

23     what aspects?

24        A.   There's a difference between what I did and what

25     Mr. Drago Nikolic did.  I was a security intelligence organ with a Light

Page 33217

 1     Infantry Brigade, whereas Drago Nikolic was a security chief in

 2     the Infantry Brigade, and these two functions are separate.

 3             Now, again I'm not saying this affirmatively, but I think that I

 4     can say that Drago Nikolic was an authorised official, whereas I wasn't.

 5     That's the difference.  Mr. Drago was in charge of security issues, and

 6     he was authorised to do that.  I, on the other hand, was in charge of

 7     intelligence and security affairs, and the focus of my engagement was

 8     intelligence, and I was only in charge of security at the command staff,

 9     and that refers only to providing protection of one's own unit.

10     Therefore, in any criminal proceedings I couldn't appear as an authorised

11     official who could file criminal reports, et cetera.

12        Q.   All I wanted to ask you is the following:  Were you involved in

13     counter-intelligence?

14        A.   Of course I was.

15        Q.   Did you act independently in that area?

16        A.   Well, yes.  Yes.

17        Q.   In applying the methods of works?

18        A.   Well, not in that area.  When you speak about

19     counter-intelligence, my job was to make assessments regarding the enemy.

20     I'm not particularly skilled, and my expertise is not significant there.

21     I just made assessments about the enemy, their intentions, and things

22     like that.  As for the application of the methods of intelligence,

23     security organs, you have to apply rules which also on the other hand

24     implies seeking certain permissions, and in that sense the security organ

25     is not independent.  If they want to apply these methods, they need to

Page 33218

 1     seek approval.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  From this I understand that security of

 3     the brigade was not your primary task, and you don't feel to be fully

 4     qualified to do that.

 5        A.   No, and I wouldn't like to make any comments on that issue.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  You're going too fast, and you're overlapping

 7     again.  Please.

 8             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I apologise again.

 9        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I apologise on your behalf as well.

10        A.   Yes.  I will try to do my best because I sometimes forget about

11     it.

12        Q.   Let us now move to another area.  When you answered questions

13     asked by Mr. Zivanovic about the officers you knew in the Zvornik

14     Brigade, you said that you knew only a few of them.  So can we please now

15     have in e-court Exhibit P2880.  You will see in front of you,

16     Mr. Nikolic, a photograph, and I'd like to ask you, are you familiar with

17     the officers by the name Nenad Simic; Dusko Vukotic; Mico Petkovic,

18     assistant of the chief of staff for intelligence and moral guidance;

19     Sreten Milosevic, assistant for logistics?  Do you recognise any of the

20     people in this photograph?

21        A.   I can tell you positively that I recognise two people only,

22     Mr. Pandurevic -- Pandurevic and Drago.  I may have seen the others at

23     some point, but believe me, I wouldn't remember any single name.  I heard

24     of Vukotic and some other names, but I don't know them.

25        Q.   Have you ever met Sreten Milosevic in 1996, in 1997, in the

Page 33219

 1     printing house in Bratunac?

 2        A.   It is possible.  I was the manager of that printing plant, and it

 3     is possible, but please believe me, I don't know.

 4        Q.   Can you perhaps recognise him in this photo?  This was taken in

 5     1995.

 6        A.   No.  No.  I really cannot.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We can remove this document from

 9     the screen.  Thank you.

10        Q.   Let us now go back to your statement of facts.  That's 4D16,

11     item 10.  You testified at length about the meeting in Bratunac during

12     Mr. Ostojic's cross-examination.  However, can we establish as a fact

13     from 6th of May, 2003, when you signed this statement, that at around

14     2030 hours after the alleged meeting in Bratunac with Colonel Beara, you

15     set off to the Zvornik Brigade?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   At that point, you were told that you were going to the Zvornik

18     Brigade command in Karakaj to see Drago Nikolic and to convey personally

19     Colonel Beara's message to him.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Therefore, at that point when you set off for Zvornik, what you

22     knew was that Drago was probably at the Zvornik Brigade command in

23     Karakaj; is that right?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   And no one had any information, neither you nor Colonel Beara,

Page 33220

 1     that he was actually at the forward command post, which we only learned

 2     later.

 3        A.   I can say for myself I didn't have that kind of information.

 4        Q.   Having read your testimony in the Blagojevic case, it seems that

 5     you were then able to provide more details to the Chamber.  You said, for

 6     example, that the distance between Bratunac and Zvornik was

 7     42 kilometres, that it was dusk or early evening.  Can you tell us what

 8     was the situation on the road?  Was the road blocked?  At which route did

 9     you take while driving?

10        A.   When I passed there, control points had already been erected in

11     Kravica, in Konjevic Polje, and also in front of Kuslac.  There was a

12     sort of check-point on the road as well.  There was one in the Drinjaca

13     sector.  There were a number of people in uniforms.  I don't know if they

14     were military or police.  And that is all that I saw on that road, and I

15     travelled from Bratunac via Kravica, Konjevic Polje, and Drinjaca.  And

16     it is true that the distance is -- to Zvornik is about 42 kilometres, and

17     I don't know how far the command itself from that point is.  Let's say

18     two or three kilometres more because the command headquarters is outside

19     of town.  It was July, so it was not night-time.  It was 8.00 or 8.30 in

20     the evening.  So that's -- I would call that early evening or dusk.

21        Q.   As you said in your testimony in the Blagojevic case, your ride

22     took about one hour.

23        A.   Well, roughly speaking.  I didn't have any problems or -- or

24     difficulties on the road.  I just said hello to people in Konjevic Polje,

25     people from Bratunac who were manning that check-point, and I just

Page 33221

 1     proceeded on my way.

 2        Q.   Can you tell me, what vehicle did you use?  Was anyone else with

 3     you in this vehicle?

 4        A.   No.  I was alone, and I think I drove a Golf car.

 5        Q.   Was that a civilian vehicle or a military vehicle?

 6        A.   It was a civilian vehicle.

 7        Q.   With civilian licence plates or military licence plates?

 8        A.   I really don't remember.  It belonged to the VRS, the Bratunac

 9     Brigade.  It had been mobilised and was in the possession of the brigade.

10     It was given to me for use.

11        Q.   According to item 1 of your statement of facts --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Item 10.

13             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   In 2003, you said that you arrived at the Zvornik Brigade at

15     around 21.45.

16        A.   What I said that, I can repeat now.

17        Q.   I forgot to ask you, had you announced your arrival to the

18     Zvornik Brigade?  Did you contact them from any point before you set off?

19        A.   No, I hadn't.

20        Q.   When you came outside the gate to the Zvornik Brigade, you

21     stopped at the gatehouse; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I'm going to show you now this gate.  So please, if

24     we can see in e-court Exhibit 3D502, which is the gatehouse or the gate

25     to the barracks of the Zvornik Brigade.

Page 33222

 1             Mr. Nikolic, in front of you, you can see this photograph.

 2             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] And I would kindly ask the usher to

 3     give a pencil to Mr. Nikolic so that he can mark the place where he

 4     parked his car.

 5        Q.   First of all, do you recognise this photograph?  Do you know what

 6     it is?

 7        A.   Of course.  This is -- this used to be a factory before the war,

 8     one of the factories in Zvornik.  During the war, it was converted to the

 9     Zvornik Brigade command headquarters.  What I see here, if I see it

10     correctly, at the entrance to the Zvornik Brigade command headquarters is

11     a little office, and this is the direction when you move from Zvornik

12     towards Karakaj, what I'm showing to you now.

13        Q.   Can you please mark this direction with the pencil so that I can

14     see that on my screen.

15        A.   I say if this is direction from Zvornik to Karakaj, then the

16     Zvornik Brigade building is on the right-hand side, and at the entrance

17     there's the gatehouse or the little office where the duty officer sits.

18     I stopped immediately in front of the Zvornik Brigade command, that is to

19     say outside the asphalt road of the road that leads to Karakaj.

20        Q.   Could you please put a number 1 on the spot where you stopped

21     your car.

22        A.   Well, I cannot tell you exactly.  Let's say here in front of the

23     gatehouse, or maybe a little bit further on.  I really cannot tell you

24     exactly.  This will be roughly the place where I stopped the car.

25     Anyway, it was not in the road lane or the road leading to Karakaj.  This

Page 33223

 1     is the office which I approached, and I reported to the people who were

 2     manning the gatehouse.

 3        Q.   Just one moment, please.  This is where you stopped, and you

 4     marked it with number 1.  Was there any gate or swinging barrier at the

 5     entrance?

 6        A.   I think there was.

 7        Q.   Was the gate closed or was the --

 8        A.   I think that it was closed, and the only way in was here where

 9     the office is.

10             Let me just add one thing.  You're asking me about these details,

11     and I really try to answer your questions to the best of my ability, but

12     I really didn't pay attention to these details that you're asking me

13     about, whether the gate was closed, whether the swinging barrier was up

14     or down.  But nevertheless, I will try to tell you everything that I know

15     that you request me to tell you.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   But please don't expect me to be very precise because I didn't

18     pay attention to these details at all.

19        Q.   When you came to the gatehouse - you already told Mr. Zivanovic,

20     and I do not intend to go into that again - you produced your ID, which

21     is not an official one, is that right, and you explained that you were

22     looking for Drago Nikolic.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   How many soldiers or military policemen were there as you

25     approached the reception area, the reception booth at the gate to the

Page 33224

 1     brigade HQ?  How many of them were there?

 2        A.   Around the booth there were two individuals outside of it, and

 3     within the reception booth there were two to three individuals.  I'm not

 4     quite sure.  There were at least two of them inside and a group of

 5     people -- a group of soldiers in uniform outside.

 6        Q.   In other words, there were persons around the reception booth?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did they allow you to enter the compound in your vehicle?

 9        A.   No.  I didn't attempt to do that.

10        Q.   Where did you park your vehicle, then?

11        A.   After I reported to the gate, I proceeded to a car parking across

12     the road from the brigade HQ, left -- parked the car there and went back

13     through the gate.

14        Q.   Did the military policemen enter your name into the log of

15     visitors, the ones who were manning the reception booth as you entered

16     the gate?

17        A.   I don't know that.  I gave them the ID I had containing all my

18     personal details.  I told them that I was a security organ from the

19     Bratunac Brigade.  Whether they copied my details somewhere, I can't tell

20     you.

21        Q.   From the reception booth, from the gate to the brigade building,

22     did you pass that particular distance alone or with someone?

23        A.   There was an individual, whether he was a military policeman or

24     somebody else, who escorted me into the building and on.

25        Q.   Would you be so kind as to draw the two circles on the

Page 33225

 1     photograph, to put number 1 and place the date and your initials at the

 2     bottom.

 3        A.   What did you say?  What am I supposed to do?

 4        Q.   In the lower right-hand corner, or left-hand corner, whatever you

 5     prefer, place the date and your initials.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  And if you don't mind, Ms. Nikolic, we can

 7     stop here for today because there are a few matters, housekeeping matters

 8     that we need to deal with, and also give an oral decision.  Thank you.

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I agree.

10     We can continue on Monday.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, madam.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer, earlier on you addressed the Chamber

14     requesting some time to address us on scheduling matters.

15             Yes, in the meantime, Mr. Nikolic can withdraw.

16             Mr. Nikolic, you have the weekend to rest a little bit, and then

17     we continue on Monday and hopefully try and finish on Monday.  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

21             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  We wanted to give the Trial

22     Chamber an idea of what we might have available for you next week.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  We were going to ask you anyway.

24             MR. THAYER:  The -- we have the two witnesses, Mr. Parsons and

25     Mr. Janc.  I've been in touch with three teams who are I think

Page 33226

 1     particularly interested in those witnesses to see if there is any

 2     preference for the order.  My understanding is that there is a slight

 3     preference to have Mr. Parsons after Mr. Janc.  Unfortunately,

 4     Mr. Parsons' schedule is pretty tight as I understand it.  We have him

 5     available to testify next Wednesday and then Friday.  As I understand it,

 6     Thursday is a holiday, so he is available to be here, to be ready to go

 7     on Wednesday.  If he takes less than two days, we're ready to start with

 8     Mr. Janc as soon as Mr. Parsons is done.  My understanding is that that's

 9     okay with at least the three teams with whom I've spoken, and that's

10     pretty much where we are.  We've tried to get a better idea of whether

11     there is any flexibility on Mr. Parsons' part, but we haven't been able

12     to determine that.  He is currently scheduled to be here to testify next

13     week, though.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  In other words, what you're suggesting

15     amounts to, bottom line, not sitting on Monday and on Tuesday.

16             MR. THAYER:  Well, Mr. President, given the schedule that we've

17     got, that was based on that.  We're -- Mr. Parsons is not available to

18     testify prior to Wednesday, so --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  To Wednesday.  All right.  Okay.  In any case, we

20     have got Nikolic Monday and on Tuesday, so -- all right.  That's fine

21     with us.

22             Next, Mr. Zivanovic, earlier on this week we asked you to contact

23     Mr. Stojkovic and let us know when he's available.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Unfortunately, I didn't manage to establish

25     contact with him until this point in time, but I'll try to do that during

Page 33227

 1     this day.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Zivanovic, please try to make an

 4     effort because this is somewhat annoying us.  We understand that you do

 5     encounter problems sometimes, but the feeling is that you should have

 6     checked on Mr. Stojkovic's availability when you first thought of asking

 7     for his recall.  Anyway, but we'll give you up to Monday to come back to

 8     us.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  I will do that, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             Next, yesterday the Prosecution filed a confidential -- let's go

12     into private session for a short while.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 33228











11 Page 33228 redacted. Private session.















Page 33229

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  So this is an oral decision or two oral decisions,

 9     basically.  The Trial Chamber is seized of accused Popovic's two requests

10     for certification to appeal, first, the Trial Chamber's decision on the

11     motion for the production of documents pursuant to Rule 54, which was

12     filed on the 25th of February of this year; and secondly, the further

13     decision on the Prosecution's motion to admit evidence in rebuttal and to

14     reopen its case filed on 3rd April.  We'll deal first with the

15     certification to appeal the Trial Chamber's decision on the motion for

16     the production of documents pursuant to Rule 54.

17             The Prosecution filed a confidential response to Popovic's

18     request for certification to appeal the Trial Chamber's decision on the

19     motion for the production of documents pursuant Rule 54 on the

20     11th March, 2009, while on the 18th March, Popovic filed a confidential

21     request for leave to reply and reply to the Prosecution response.

22             The Trial Chamber considers that the issue, that is the

23     production of documents to verify ICMP's underlying raw data, is in fact

24     a way of challenging the reliability of and weight to be given to the

25     ICMP's Srebrenica-related identifications.  The narrow nature of the

Page 33230

 1     issue is such that it will not significantly affect the fair and

 2     expeditious conduct of these proceedings, nor the outcome of the trial.

 3     Furthermore, given that the decision relates to one discrete issue, its

 4     immediate resolution by the Appeals Chamber will not materially advance

 5     the proceedings especially in these final stages of the trial.

 6             For the foregoing reasons, the Trial Chamber grants leave to file

 7     the reply but considers that the requirements of Rule 73(B) have not been

 8     met and denies the request.

 9             Our second decision, which relates to the motion on certification

10     to appeal the further decision on the Prosecution's motion to admit

11     evidence in rebuttal and to reopen its case.

12             The Prosecution responded confidentially on 8 April.  The Trial

13     Chamber notes that Popovic is challenging the clarity of the impugned

14     decision and is arguing its merits.  As this Trial Chamber has stated on

15     a number of occasions, the test for certification has nothing to do

16     whether a decision was correctly reasoned or not.  The Trial Chamber is

17     not persuaded that a case for certification has been made.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Thank you for slowing down.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  The Trial Chamber is not persuaded that

20     a case for certification has been made and consequently denies the

21     request.

22             Thank you, and my apologies to the interpreters.  My gratitude,

23     also, to everyone for having stayed with us for a further five or six

24     minutes beyond the scheduled time.  And please, Mr. Registrar, do

25     communicate the reason to the next Trial Chamber who is supposed to sit

Page 33231

 1     at 2.15 with our due apologies.  Thank you.

 2             Have a nice weekend.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of April,

 5                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.