Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33232

 1                           Monday, 27 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Popovic not present]

 5                           [The Accused Beara not present]

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7                           --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.  Mr. Registrar, could you call the

 9     case, please.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning, Your

11     Honours.  Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is

12     case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.,

13     thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  For the record, Accused Popovic and

15     Beara are absent for today.  Mr. Zivanovic do we have a waiver?

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We will provide it very soon and we can proceed

17     without Mr. Popovic.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm grateful, Mr. Zivanovic.

19             Mr. Ostojic.

20             MR. OSTOJIC:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  The

21     same goes for us as well.  We've spoken to our client and the waiver

22     should be coming shortly.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm grateful, Mr. Ostojic.

24             Representation, it's Prosecution the same as last week.  Defence

25     teams I notice of absence of Mr. Bourgon, and that's it, I think.

Page 33233

 1             Witness Momir Popovic -- Nikolic is present this morning already,

 2     and he's assisted by counsel, Mr. Tansey.

 3             All right.  Ms. Nikolic.

 4             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Good

 5     morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to my learned friends.

 6                           WITNESS:  MOMIR NIKOLIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witnessed answered through interpreter]

 8                           Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic: [Continued]

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

10        A.   Good morning, madam.

11        Q.   I hope you've been able to rest over the weekend so that we can

12     take it up where we left off last week.

13        A.   Yes, we can.

14        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I reviewed the transcript, and since we had a couple

15     of speedy exchanges, would I like to put several questions to you in

16     order to clarify certain ambiguities in the transcript.

17             Before I move on to the questions I put to you, at transcript

18     pages 3182 and 83, in response to Mr. Ostojic's questions you talked

19     about the chaos that reigned in the town between the 11th and 13th of

20     July, 1995, and you described the situation in great detail by saying

21     that there was general chaos, that the situation in relation to the

22     status of prisoners was horrific, that decisions changed by not the hour

23     but by half an hour, in fact.  I will not go on to the read the entire

24     page.

25             If I understood you correctly, the decisions taken were

Page 33234

 1     inconsistent and contradictory and there was general confusion around.

 2     Is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  I can agree with such an assertion, yes.  Just tell me what

 4     particular matters are you referring to when you say that there were

 5     contradictory decisions?  At least two or three elements were engaged in

 6     the whole operation.

 7             I said that what was lacking was a continuity of decisions.  What

 8     I was able to see:  Along one line of the MUP, one sort of instructions

 9     were passed down; along the other line, which was that of the military,

10     was still other; and the third one, I'm merely trying to separate them so

11     that everything is clear.  The third line was the political decisions,

12     the decision taken by the political structures.

13             That's what I meant when I said that there was lack of continuity

14     and inconsistency in these decisions.  That's what I had primarily in

15     mind.

16        Q.   And that's how I understood it, that there was general confusion

17     without any definite plan of action.

18             Before I go back to the other issues which had to do with your

19     alleged stay in Zvornik, you will recall my learned friends asking you

20     about the conversations you had with the OTP just prior to your pleading

21     guilty.  It was the 28th and 29th of April and the 1st of May, 2003.  You

22     spoke of a manner of matters including volunteers.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I need to raise

24     the name of a person, I would like us to move into private session.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  By all means Ms. Nikolic.

Page 33235

 1             Let's go to private session, please.

 2                           [Private session]

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Page 33236











11 Page 32236 redacted. Private session.















Page 33237

 1   (redacted)

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 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are back in open session, madam.

 7             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   On Friday, Mr. Nikolic, we completed our discussion concerning

 9     your alleged arrival in Zvornik.  You said that you did not announce your

10     imminent arrival to the Zvornik Brigade, and nobody expected your arrival

11     on the evening of the 13th of July, 1995.

12        A.   That's true.

13        Q.   At the reception booth when you registered with your personal

14     details, as you testified last Friday, did you see whether the duty

15     policeman in the reception booth phoned the command at all?

16        A.   Whatever details I give you now could not accurately reflect what

17     happened.  I can only retell this in two or three sentences.

18             I came to the reception booth.  I asked that I be allowed to get

19     in touch with Mr. Drago Nikolic.  I provided my ID, and I explained

20     already what sort of ID that was.

21             One of the individuals who were in the reception booth

22     accompanied me upstairs, and that's all I can tell you, all the details I

23     can provide you with.

24             Madam Nikolic, let me just tell you this:  Had I taken it upon

25     myself to memorise all the details, including the individual who was in

Page 33238

 1     the reception booth, the individual who accompanied me to the

 2     headquarters, and the individual who I found in the office there, I would

 3     have done so.  On that particular day, I saw hundreds of new faces, new

 4     soldiers, new officers.  Believe me that this was not a priority of mine.

 5     I did not pay attention to that.  He was simply a soldier who took me

 6     where I wanted to go.  I didn't pay attention to his appearance, his age,

 7     et cetera.  I had this one particular task which I had to convey to

 8     Drago Nikolic and that's what happened.

 9        Q.   In other words you don't know and you don't recall whether the

10     duty officer did place a telephone call or not?

11        A.   No, no, I don't.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic, please slow down a little bit, please.

13     You're jumping straight with your question before the witness has even

14     finished his answer.

15             And you, please, Mr. Nikolic, do the same for the sake of the

16     interpreters.  Thank you.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Microphone.  Microphone.

19             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.  Thank you, Your

20     Honours, and I apologise to the interpreters.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Likewise.  I will try to make a

22     pause before I answer.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   On Friday at page 33224, line 9 for the benefit of my learned

25     friends, you said you that you did not even attempt to enter the grounds

Page 33239

 1     of the Zvornik Brigade with your car.  Why?  It is quite customary for

 2     the officers to park with their car right in front of the building.

 3        A.   I don't know.  As far as I remember that particular detail, the

 4     gate was closed.  I first pulled over right outside there, and then I

 5     went on to park -- and again don't hold me to these details.  It is

 6     almost 15 years later now that we're discussing these matters.

 7             I think I parked right across from the barracks where there's

 8     like a sort of a lay-by that I could use to park my car, and then I got

 9     into the headquarters on foot.  I don't know why.

10             I told you already, Madam Nikolic, that I simply don't remember

11     the details because I did not find them significant.

12        Q.   You also said that you could not remember the individual who

13     accompanied you from the gate to the headquarters building.

14        A.   I said what I said.

15        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, but I do believe you can distinguish between a

16     military policeman and an ordinary soldier.  Do the policemen have any

17     special insignia on them?

18        A.   The military policemen have military belts that are different

19     from those worn by other soldiers, but to my mind he was simply a

20     uniformed person accompanying me.  Was he really a military policeman who

21     was a member of the Zvornik Brigade military police, or was he an

22     individual employed at the gate?  In the Bratunac Brigade we did not have

23     military policemen manning the reception booth.  I suppose that he was an

24     individual tasked with the duties relating to the reception booth to

25     maintain communication between his command and the individuals coming to

Page 33240

 1     visit.  I really did not find it relevant.  In my view, though, he -- or,

 2     rather, I think he was a member of the military police, which of course

 3     need not be the case.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, Ms. Nikolic and Mr. Nikolic.  At least up

 5     here we do have a problem in that we are not receiving the transcript

 6     on LiveNote.  It's scrolling on the main monitor but not on LiveNote.  If

 7     there are no objections we will proceed, and then in the meantime our

 8     technicians will work towards fixing the problem.  I hear no objections.

 9     We will proceed.  Thank you.

10             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no problem with proceeding,

11     Your Honours.  At the stage where I will be needing a document from

12     e-court, we could deal with that by using hard copies rather than

13     stopping.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam, I don't think that will be a problem,

15     because that's -- I don't see that that part of the system is affected as

16     yet.  What's affected only is the transcript on -- on e-court.

17             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I understand.  However, when

18     e-court appears on my middle screen, then I no longer can see the

19     transcript, which of course poses a problem for my work, but we'll see as

20     we go along.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I'd like to go back to you visiting the Zvornik

24     Brigade.  You said that a number of soldiers remained in and around the

25     reception booth, and you said exactly how many there were on Friday.  Did

Page 33241

 1     they follow you when you set out toward the HQ building with that

 2     particular soldier, or did they stay behind?

 3        A.   No.  I was only accompanied by that particular individual.

 4        Q.   The other ones stayed behind, I suppose.

 5        A.   I don't know who they were or what they were tasked with.  I only

 6     saw them there as a group.

 7             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of the witness, I

 8     would like now to call 3D498, please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, shortly you will see a photograph in front of you.

10     Do you recognise this place?

11             [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  One -- one moment, Mr. Nikolic.

13             Ms. Nikolic and all your colleagues, including the Prosecution, I

14     am informed that there is a complete crash of the e-court system in all

15     the building.  So -- yes, but how did he get it?  I don't have it.  Yes,

16     but Judge Stole has it.

17             All right.  Can we use a hard copy, please?  If we have -- we

18     should have one.  Now Judge Prost has it as well.

19             All right.  Okay.  All right.  You can see it if you go on

20     LiveNote, the e-court where we get copies of the images, et cetera.

21     There you can see it.

22             Yes, Ms. Nikolic.  If you could proceed, please.

23             The accused can't see it.  Well, we need a hard copy.  Do we have

24     one handy?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can see it.  I have

Page 33242

 1     the photograph in front of me.  I can see the buildings and the car that

 2     Ms. Nikolic wants to point.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  You're not the problem, Mr. Nikolic.  It's -- let's

 4     proceed with a hard copy that we can show to the accused at least.

 5             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can I put it on the ELMO?

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes.  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

 7             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can we see this on the ELMO,

 8     because none of my screens is showing that everything is okay.  I hope

 9     the accused have it too.

10        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, do you recognise this photograph and what's depicted

11     in it?

12        A.   I don't recognise this photograph because I see it for the first

13     time.  However, it depicts the buildings that, again, I assume are the

14     buildings that belonged to the Zvornik Brigade command HQ, but again I'm

15     not sure.  I seen only one of the buildings of the Zvornik Brigade where

16     I went during the war, and after the war I told you how many times I went

17     there.

18             As for the surrounding of the buildings, this picture is

19     something that simply doesn't tell me anything.

20        Q.   Is this the Zvornik Brigade command building?

21        A.   You should have taken the picture of the whole section of the

22     town in order to ask me that.  Last time I told you where I went exactly.

23             As for making recognitions on the basis of the photographs, I

24     don't want to make any guesswork.  You have three buildings in this

25     photograph, and I can only suppose -- or I can tell you exactly which

Page 33243

 1     building I entered.  However, among these three buildings I cannot tell

 2     you exactly because they all look alike to me.  I didn't pay any

 3     attention, and I don't know how the building looked like and what was

 4     around it.  I can tell you where I went and which office I visited.

 5        Q.   Please be so kind to do so.

 6        A.   Whatever I told Mr. Zivanovic last time I will tell to you again

 7     to you.  I same to the reception booth.  It's on the right-hand side.

 8     And then I took -- went straight away, and after a minute or two minutes,

 9     I don't know what the distance was, you have to turn left and then you

10     climb the stairs into the building.  This is the best to my -- my

11     recollection.

12             I went on a floor.  I took a flight of stairs -- or two,

13     actually, flight of stairs.  There was a landing, and if I remember

14     correctly, we entered an office which is a little bit diagonally to the

15     left from the landing, and this is the best I can remember.  What was

16     there actually, Ms. Nikolic --

17        Q.   I'm going to ask you further questions.  Please slow down.

18        A.   I apologise.  This is what I remember best.  As for the

19     identification of the buildings from this photograph, I really cannot do

20     that 15 years later.

21        Q.   Therefore, you cannot confirm that this is the Zvornik Brigade

22     command building based on this photograph.

23        A.   I don't know what this is.  All these buildings of the Zvornik

24     Brigade command HQ are similar to these ones.  They looked like

25     prefabricated buildings, and that's all I can tell you.

Page 33244

 1        Q.   I'm going to show you another photograph.  Maybe it will be

 2     easier to refresh your memory on the basis of that photograph.  Can we

 3     please now look at 3D497.

 4             This is the -- the reception booth, and behind it, if you can see

 5     it, there's a building.  Does this photograph help you to recollect the

 6     route that you took, that you described a minute ago from the reception

 7     booth to the building?

 8        A.   This reception booth is what we see here on the right-hand side

 9     of the photograph.  Now, can I mark this with a ball-point pen, the route

10     that I took?

11        Q.   Please go ahead.

12        A.   So if you enter from the road and you get to the reception booth,

13     this is this control point or check-point, as far as I can remember.

14     Then one proceeds this way, makes a -- makes a turn, and approximately

15     this entrance that I'm just showing you, to the best of my

16     recollection --

17        Q.   Just a moment, Mr. Nikolic.  I think that Mr. Thayer has stood up

18     particularly for this purpose.

19             Can you please do this on this hard copy on the ELMO, because if

20     you are making marks on the screens the other people in the courtroom

21     cannot follow.

22        A.   May I?

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this here is the reception

25     booth, and this is where I talked to the people who were inside.  After

Page 33245

 1     everything that took place that I already told you, I went this way,

 2     behind the reception booth, and as far as I can remember and what I can

 3     see in this photograph, this is approximately the command building, and

 4     this is the door that I went through.

 5             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you please put the date on this paper and your signature.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.

 9             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask the usher to show

10     to the witness the Exhibit 3D110.

11        Q.   Before the usher comes back, we can go back to this exhibit.  In

12     the meantime, I'll ask you a few questions.

13             According to your statement of facts, 4D16, item 10, you said

14     that together with this policeman you had gone to look for the duty

15     officer, and the two of you went into the office of the duty -- the duty

16     officer.  That's what you testified.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You told to the duty officer that you were looking for Drago

19     Nikolic.  Was that the first time that you heard that Drago Nikolic was

20     at the IKM?

21        A.   Yes, that was the first time.

22        Q.   How many men were in the room of the duty officer when you

23     entered?

24        A.   The man who met us, that is the duty officer, this military

25     policeman, and myself.  Later on, we were joined by another individual

Page 33246

 1     who was called to come into this office.

 2        Q.   Can you please now look the ELMO in front of you.  You will see

 3     the layout.  That's e-court page 2.  This is the first floor of the

 4     Zvornik Brigade HQ.  This is the layout of the whole building.

 5             So could you kindly mark the room of the duty operations officer,

 6     where you found this man.

 7        A.   No, I honestly don't want to speculate and guess.  I cannot read

 8     this layout, because I'm not an expert.  I don't know.  This doesn't mean

 9     anything to me.  I cannot comprehend this layout, and I don't want to

10     make any marks about anything that I don't understand.  Therefore,

11     whatever I mark, in my view, means nothing.  I don't know how to work

12     with this kind of layout or plans or -- therefore, I'm not prepared to

13     make any marks.  Quite simply, I cannot find my way around this layout.

14     It's all the same to me.  And I'm not ready or prepared to mark any marks

15     about something that I know nothing about.

16        Q.   A minute ago, Mr. Nikolic, you explained to us in every detail

17     that you climbed the stairs.  Anyone can see the stairs --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are kindly asked not to overlap.

19     Thank you.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Slow down, please.  Please.  You're making the

21     interpreters' lives difficult.  Please slow down.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  If someone is leading

23     me or escorting me who knows how to read this layout, I can try to

24     explain to you.  If this is the staircase, and I'm not sure, probably is,

25     I can really only guess.  So if this is the staircase and you climb the

Page 33247

 1     stairs to the first floor and then you arrive at the landing, and this is

 2     the landing and these are the rooms.  So to the best of my recollection,

 3     the room that I entered after I climbed the stairs was diagonally to the

 4     light -- to the right -- to the left, but I'm not sure.

 5             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not going to insist.  Can you please just put the

 7     date and your signature.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Incidentally, those who would like to try and

 9     reconnect the LiveNote, it seems that the transcript is ready now and

10     available.  And it's up-to-date.  In other words, what was missing before

11     has been filled in, but you have to reconnect.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

14             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   In this office of the duty operations officer, after reading the

16     transcript in the Blagojevic case, you had to wait for a while for

17     another officer to arrive; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, for a short period of time.

19        Q.   That individual appeared, did he?  And then what happened?  Who

20     was that man who joined you?  Did he address you?  Did he ask if he could

21     help you?

22        A.   Yes, precisely so.  I had a feeling, but I'm not sure, that he

23     was from the same organ that Drago Nikolic belonged to.  He asked me if

24     he could be of any help.  I told him that what I need to convey or

25     pursuant to the order that I had received would be to convey directly to

Page 33248

 1     Mr. Drago Nikolic, and that was generally what we discussed.

 2             After that, I was told that Drago Nikolic was at the IKM and that

 3     if that was the case somebody would escort me to the IKM.  Actually, the

 4     same person who escorted me from the reception booth.

 5             That would be, in short, what we talked about.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Based on what did you conclude, Mr. Nikolic, that

 7     this officer was from the intelligence and security sector, the sector

 8     that Mr. Drago Nikolic belonged to?  Only Mr. Trbic was there, and you

 9     said that you had never seen him before according to your testimony in

10     Sarajevo.

11        A.   Yes.  That was my testimony.  I had never seen Trbic before, and

12     all I testified to was correct.  Now, on the basis of what did I reach

13     the conclusion that he was from the same sector?  Well, that seemed to be

14     the most reasonable explanation to me.  They had to call someone who was

15     knowledgeable about these things, but if you ask me that would be someone

16     from the same sector.  Even if I was in the same situation.

17        Q.   Do you know that in the security sector there was no one else but

18     Drago Nikolic and Mr. Trbic?

19        A.   I don't know who was engaged in the security sector.  I don't

20     know how many there were or who they were in addition to Drago Nikolic.

21        Q.   Based on everything you've told us and described for us, your

22     stay in the Zvornik Brigade, by the time you parked your car, went

23     through the gate, got into the HQ building, and then got back to your

24     car, all of that must have taken at least 20 minutes to half an hour.

25     You'll agree with me?

Page 33249

 1        A.   I don't know how long it took me to do all that, but not long,

 2     that's for sure.

 3        Q.   In other words, sometime after 10.00 you set out for the forward

 4     command post with the military policeman who was assigned to be your

 5     escort; right?

 6        A.   I set out once I finished all this business at the brigade

 7     headquarters.  I didn't have a watch on me, and I didn't know the time.

 8        Q.   Did you engage in any conversation at all with the military

 9     policeman while you were in the car?  Did he introduce himself to you?

10        A.   Well, no.  We must have talked about something, but nothing of

11     any consequence that I would remember.

12        Q.   According to your earlier testimony in the Blagojevic case and

13     according to the statement of facts, you said that you -- that the road

14     you travelled was very poor, that it was a macadam road, a dirt road, and

15     that it was night-time.

16        A.   Yes.  I stand by all I stated then.

17        Q.   The road was quite narrow, full of bends, and going uphill and

18     downhill, and you said that you took some 40 minutes to reach the IKM.

19        A.   The road was partly a dirt road.  Not right away, but after you

20     leave the brigade HQ and that particular area.  It was in poor condition.

21     It was a dirt road.  It was not an asphalt road.  I told you roughly how

22     long it took us to get there.  I don't know if that was indeed the case.

23     I can't be more precise, or precise, in fact, how long it took us to

24     reach the IKM from the Zvornik Brigade.

25        Q.   In your statement of facts, 4D16, at paragraph 10 you specified

Page 33250

 1     that it was 45 minutes.

 2             Can you please repeat your answer?  We don't have it in the

 3     transcript.

 4        A.   Yes.  That's what I said at the time, roughly 45 minutes, if I

 5     remember correctly.

 6        Q.   When you reached the forward command post, did anyone stop you or

 7     check you, anyone from the army?

 8        A.   Along the road to the command post.

 9        Q.   Yes.

10        A.   No.  I don't remember.

11        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, most of us went to the forward command post, and you

12     will agree with me it is on top of a hill; right?

13        A.   I was there once, and I know that that was where I found Drago

14     Nikolic, that that was the forward command post.  Whether it was a hill

15     or a valley.  I arrived there in the evening hours.

16             As I said a moment ago, all the details you're asking me about

17     were not something that I thought was relevant.  I did not pay particular

18     attention to the surroundings and to all the minor details you're asking

19     me about.

20             I can confirm that I reached the command -- forward command post,

21     that nobody stopped me on the way, and the rest I told when I was

22     answering Mr. Zivanovic's questions, and I confirm whatever I said now.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did you observe any other vehicles parked at the command --

Page 33251

 1     forward command post?

 2        A.   Where I turned my vehicle, no, not at the time I was there.

 3        Q.   Were there soldiers at the IKM?

 4        A.   I didn't see any.  When I was there, it seems -- or it's not that

 5     it seems to me.  There was no one there when I got there.  There may have

 6     been individuals in the building or around it, but where -- in the area

 7     where I saw Drago Nikolic, there were none.

 8        Q.   When you testified in the Blagojevic case six years ago at page

 9     2289, at lines 17 to 23, for the benefit of my learned friends, you

10     stated that you entered the building where the brigade's IKM was housed

11     and that that was where you finally found Drago Nikolic.  Do you recall

12     stating this in the Blagojevic case?

13        A.   That I entered the building.  I don't think that I said anything

14     of the sort.  I did state that I was outside the building.  I never said

15     that I got in.  It may have been misinterpretation or something else.

16             On the occasion of that visit I did not get into the IKM

17     building.  I stayed outside where we talked.

18        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I will read out what you answered to the question of

19     Mr. Stojanovic.  Page 28 -- 2289, lines 15 through 21.

20              "[In English] Only just managed to turn the car around where I

21     had to do so, and it was just -- and it was just a house.  Whether it was

22     a holiday home or not, I really don't know.  I just went inside that

23     house."

24             [Interpretation] This is what you stated in the Blagojevic case,

25     Mr. Nikolic.

Page 33252

 1        A.   If that's what the transcript reads, I have no reason to doubt

 2     what you say.  I will seize the opportunity to correct that.

 3             I may have said as much.  I apologise, but I know now, as I did

 4     then, that I did not linger there or go into the house, and I confirm

 5     this again.  I did not enter the house.  I did not linger in the house.

 6     The conversation took place outside.  If I said so, I apologise and I

 7     correct it now.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Wasn't your memory fresher in 2003 when you

 9     testified for the first time before a Chamber in the Blagojevic case than

10     it is today?  Would not your testimony given at the time be more

11     reflective of the truth than what you're stating today?

12        A.   I'm telling you the truth.  I do not wish to deny that my memory

13     was fresher six years ago than it is today.  However, I'm telling you

14     what really happened, and you can accept it or not.  Again, I allow for

15     the possibility that I misspoke and made a mistake when I was giving my

16     statement at the time.  My apologies.  I don't think that I ever

17     testified since that I entered the house and that I had my conversation

18     with Drago Nikolic in the house.  I don't recall a single such statement.

19        Q.   What I read out to you was your testimony in the Blagojevic case.

20        A.   I do believe you, that I may have said something of the sort.

21        Q.   Let me -- let me remind you of something else that you stated in

22     the Blagojevic case.  When asked whether you saw a communications officer

23     at the IKM, do you recall what your answer was?

24        A.   I believe that I answered that I heard that there were

25     communications devices on the premises and that there were some

Page 33253

 1     individuals who had something to do with it.  I don't think that I said

 2     anything in particular.  I even believe that one of the individuals

 3     appeared in the doorway without actually coming out.  That's the best of

 4     my recollection 15 years later.

 5        Q.   Was the house a smaller or a larger structure?

 6        A.   To the best of my recollection, it was a house by the macadam or

 7     dirt road, roughly to the right-hand side of the road as one travels

 8     toward the house.  It had several steps leading to the front door of the

 9     house.  How big or small was it, well, really, I know only the bit that I

10     saw as I entered the yard.  If I remember well, I passed the courtyard

11     gate typical of the rural houses.

12             I drove my car in reverse into the yard in order for me to be

13     able to leave it then.  That's the best of my recollection related to the

14     house.  I only saw the part where the front gate and door were, and I

15     can't tell you how big or small the house was itself.

16        Q.   You said that it was to the right-hand side of the direction --

17     of the road in the direction you were travelling.

18        A.   If I remember correctly, yes.  It was night-time, and that's what

19     I was able to see.

20        Q.   If we take stock of the time based on your earlier testimonies

21     and your testimony today and of the events you went through, you spoke --

22     you allegedly spoke with Drago Nikolic at the IKM roughly at 2300 hours.

23        A.   I did not keep track of the time myself.  I testified about

24     talking to him.  As for the time, I told your learned friends, too, that

25     I tried to do my best and describe the time line.  Was I precise enough?

Page 33254

 1     That's something I cannot really assess at the time.  I tried to be as

 2     precise as possible, and I tried to describe the events.  Everything I

 3     said was something that I could remember best.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  That's precisely what I wanted to ask you about.

 5             If you reached the Zvornik Brigade at 2245 hours, as you said in

 6     your statement of facts, and then you spent some 15 to 20 minutes in the

 7     brigade before the whole procedure of your impending journey was

 8     resolved, and if it took you some 45 minutes to reach the IKM, then it

 9     leads us to some 2300 hours that you must have reached the --

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment, Mr. Nikolic.

11             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   -- IKM?

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14             MR. THAYER:  Just a correction for the record, Mr. President.  In

15     section 10 Mr. Nikolic's statement of facts, to which my friend is

16     referring, it's written that he reached the Zvornik Brigade headquarters

17     at around 21 -- 2145 hours, not 2245 hours.  I just wanted to clarify

18     that.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you for that, Mr. Thayer.

20             Do you agree, Ms. Nikolic?

21             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I misspoke.  2145.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. Nikolic, is everything clear in your

23     mind?  Can you proceed with your reply?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

Page 33255

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to be quite

 2     correct and clear in what I'm saying.  I do not wish to speculate about

 3     time, and I've said that countless times.  Was it 15 minutes earlier or

 4     half an hour earlier or later, that's something I don't want to be

 5     hold -- held to.  I'm not stating that I could fully pinpoint the exact

 6     time of day.  That was roughly based on how I remember things happened.

 7             I do allow for the possibility that it may have happened 15

 8     minutes or half an hour earlier or later.  Really, I do not exclude the

 9     possibility that I may have made a mistake in assessing the exact time

10     and the events as they happened at different intervals.

11             Mr. Prosecutor did intervene, and he was correct that it was an

12     hour earlier than suggested by you in your question.

13             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Thayer was really right to correct me.  Otherwise, it would

15     mean that you would reach the IKM at midnight, and my question was

16     actually based on your statement of facts.

17        A.   Ms. Nikolic, I -- sorry, I tried to tell you what I think about

18     the time line and the things that you're asking me about.

19        Q.   Therefore, this conversation could have taken place quarter to

20     11.00, 11.00, or quarter past 11.00 on the 13th of July 1995.

21             Let us wrap up this topic.  I have information that you are a

22     civil engineer and technician by profession?

23        A.   Yes, I finished the secondary civil engineer's school.

24        Q.   The IKM, was that a solid-built house?  Was it probably damaged

25     by shells?  Do you recall these details?

Page 33256

 1        A.   I already answered that question.  I already told you what I

 2     noticed when I arrived there.  Anything beyond that would be just making

 3     up things.  I explained to you precisely what I saw the moment I arrived

 4     there approximately at the time that you have mentioned.  I didn't pay

 5     any attention whether this was a solid-built house, what kind of

 6     structure it was.  I really didn't pay any attention.  I still don't know

 7     what kind of material it was built of.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  On Friday when you testified, you said that you had

 9     left the IKM with the military policeman who had escorted you there.

10     After this reported conversation -- purported conversation with

11     Mr. Drago Nikolic and that Mr. Drago Nikolic had remained at the IKM.  Do

12     you remember that?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   On your way back to towards the Zvornik Brigade down this dirt

15     road, did you meet any vehicles coming from the opposite direction

16     towards the IKM?  Do you remember that?

17        A.   No, I don't remember, Ms. Nikolic.

18        Q.   When you testified earlier about your journey from Bratunac to

19     Zvornik, you told us that you saw buses on the road.  Do you perhaps

20     remember when and where that was?

21        A.   Yes.  That was on the road leading from Zvornik to Konjevic

22     Polje.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see P2110 -- excuse

24     me.  P2111 in the e-court.  P2111.  It's a map.

25        Q.   While we're waiting for this document, Mr. Nikolic, I'm going to

Page 33257

 1     tell you briefly that this is a map where the roads are marked, the roads

 2     that you took.  This is the map indicating only one section of the road,

 3     not all the way to Zvornik.

 4             Could you please be so kind to tell us at which point you saw the

 5     buses and at what time while you were travelling reportedly to Zvornik

 6     and back?

 7        A.   This is Konjevic Polje.  In fact, the cross-section --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Intersection in

 9     Konjevic Polje.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And if this is the road leading to

11     Zvornik, and I assume that that's the case, it goes towards Drinjaca via

12     Kuslat.  Since we don't see these places in the map, I have to tell you

13     that I saw the buses somewhere between Drinjaca.  If this is Drinjaca

14     here, if this is Drinjaca, I don't know exactly, but if this is Drinjaca,

15     then it would be between Drinjaca and Konjevic Polje, in that section.

16             This is the Konjevic Polje intersection, the road leading to

17     Zvornik.  This is Drinjaca.  So that would be that on this section of the

18     road I saw buses travelling towards Zvornik.

19             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please, Mr. Nikolic, write the word "bus "next to the

21     arrow so that we can know in which direction these buses were moving.

22        A.   I'm talking about -- or under the assumption that this is the

23     road leading to Zvornik, and they were travelling towards Zvornik.

24        Q.   Yes, you are right.  Can you please tell us at what time that

25     happened?

Page 33258

 1        A.   Well, that was at the time when I was on my way back to Bratunac.

 2        Q.   That was on the night of the 13th of July, 1995, after 2300

 3     hours?

 4        A.   Yes, after I -- or, actually, while I was returning from Zvornik

 5     to Bratunac.

 6        Q.   Could you please put today's date on this document and your

 7     signature.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We shall not need this document any

11     more.

12        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, do you remember how many buses were in this convoy,

13     one or two?

14        A.   I never mentioned a convoy.  I spoke about buses, individual

15     buses, and that is what I saw.  There was no convoy, as far as I

16     remember.

17        Q.   How many buses did you see?

18        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't count them.  I saw a couple

19     of buses travelling in that direction.  There was no column or a large

20     number of buses that were passing.  Two, three at the most, but please

21     don't hold me to that.  I saw the buses passing.  I didn't count them.  I

22     didn't particularly pay any attention to how many buses there were.

23        Q.   At Drinjaca-Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road and the roundabout road

24     that goes around Drina are converging there.

25        A.   Yes, the road leading from Konjevic Polje to Zvornik and from the

Page 33259

 1     Bratunac direction along the Drina, this is where these roads converge.

 2        Q.   You said yourself, when you testified last Friday, that on the

 3     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road there were a lot of patrols.  According to

 4     the evidence, this road was closed for traffic or -- of buses or any

 5     other non-military vehicles.  Were you aware of that?

 6        A.   That's not true.  You probably have some documents or maybe you

 7     have seen an order to that effect, but the actual situation on that road

 8     was ... I myself travelled down this road, and it's not true that the

 9     road was closed on that evening.  I do believe that at one point there

10     was some check-points put on the road, and the units that were performing

11     those tasks were rotated.  But as for the rest, all the traffic went

12     unhindered along this road, and that is all I know.

13        Q.   Did you see at Drinjaca a column of six buses parked and with

14     their headlights on?

15        A.   No, I don't remember.

16        Q.   PW-169 witness testified before this court, and he said that a

17     six-bus convoy was parked by the Drina with the prisoners and that the

18     buses had their headlights on, and that was on the road that converges at

19     the point where Drinjaca, and you say that you didn't see that column.

20        A.   He can say whatever he wants.

21        Q.   Can you please answer my question.

22        A.   I had information --

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, my question was did you see that or not?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  You interrupted his -- his answer.  Let him finish.

25     If it's not relevant we'll strike it off, but let him finish his answer

Page 33260

 1     first, please.  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Nikolic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really want the situation to be

 4     perfectly clear.  When I returned from Zvornik, members of the MP and

 5     their commander told me that the military policemen who were deployed on

 6     the bridge over the Drina, that was the joint patrol of the border police

 7     and the military police, that they had informed the commander that on the

 8     evening of the 13th, down the road which runs along the Drina, some buses

 9     had set off towards Zvornik with the Muslims who had been previously in

10     Bratunac.

11             Now, this is what I can confirm as my knowledge about the

12     movement of these vehicles, but I personally didn't see them.  This is

13     probably the buses that had travelled down the Drina River and were

14     stopped there.

15             Since I am familiar with this area, they could have been stopped

16     at Drinjaca before they took to the main road -- or, rather, the road

17     that I travelled down and from where I would have been able to see them.

18     Therefore, I can only confirm that according to the information that I

19     received, a convoy of buses travelled along the Drina River, and what I

20     saw with my own eyes is the buses that I previously mentioned that were

21     travelling from Konjevic Polje to Zvornik.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Can we just go back for a moment to the Zvornik Brigade HQ and

24     the duty operations officer room.  Do you remember, did this officer

25     register your visit at the time and your request to meet with

Page 33261

 1     Drago Nikolic?

 2        A.   You really have to ask the duty operations officer.  I don't know

 3     what the procedure was in place in the Zvornik Brigade, and I wasn't

 4     interested in that at all, whether he registered my name.  It wasn't my

 5     business to take care of that.  I simply didn't pay attention, and I

 6     really cannot answer your question.  Whether he was supposed to register

 7     my name or not, I don't know what the procedure, what the standard

 8     procedure of the Zvornik Brigade was.  I don't know if he wrote down my

 9     name.

10        Q.   As for the standard procedure in the Zvornik Brigade, was to

11     record all the messages and all the visits by officers by other units,

12     and this has been entered --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the name -- the

14     date and the number of the book.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Nikolic, you're kindly asked to repeat the name

16     and the page of the book, please, date and number of the book.  Name,

17     date, number of the book.

18             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise again to

19     the interpreters.  This was duty operations officer log-book, Exhibit

20     Number P377, and the standard procedure was to enter the names of the

21     visitors.

22        A.   Ms. Nikolic --

23        Q.   Sorry, I haven't finished.  Your name appears -- actually,

24     appears not to have been recorded on the 13th of July.  The duty

25     operations officer, on the 13th of July, 1995, was Sreten Milosevic.  In

Page 33262

 1     the interview he gave to the OTP, he never mentioned your visit, and this

 2     is what Sreten Milosevic told us on the 27th of April, 2007, actually, to

 3     the investigators of the Defence:

 4              "On the 13th of July, 1995, I was duty operations officer at the

 5     Zvornik Brigade command HQ.  All the individuals who were not part of the

 6     Zvornik Brigade command but who came to see me during my shift were

 7     registered in the duty operations officer's logbook.  If someone's name

 8     is not entered, then this person never came.  I do not remember Momir

 9     Nikolic, and I know who he is, but I wasn't acquainted with him, had come

10     looking for Drago Nikolic, nor was anyone was assigned to accompany him

11     to the Kitovnica IKM.  I honestly don't remember any such event."

12             This is what Sreten Milosevic stated about his shift as a duty

13     operations officer regarding the 13th of July when you allegedly went to

14     the Zvornik Brigade command.  This is what he responded to our questions.

15             You yourself don't remember any details.  You don't remember the

16     policemen or their names, and according to the duty operations officer's

17     statement and the entries for the 13th of July, 1995, Mr. Nikolic, you

18     were not at the Zvornik Brigade command headquarters.

19        A.   May I -- I do respect the gentleman gave his statement.  Of

20     course, we all know and you say that -- what you say, that the practice

21     was for everyone who visited to have been recorded.  I myself am aware of

22     a different practice that was in existence.  I don't know whether it was

23     in accordance with the standing rules of procedure, but this is what the

24     practice was:  In the corps command, security organs were never recorded.

25     They were never disarmed.  In other words, I was never disarmed, and I

Page 33263

 1     visited the corps command to see the corps commander, let's say

 2     General Zivanovic.

 3             I don't know that I was ever registered.  I never produced any ID

 4     I had on me.  I introduced myself as a security organ, and I was never

 5     subject to they subsequent checks, registration, or anything of the sort.

 6     Probably the Zvornik Brigade had a different practice of procedure, but

 7     I'm telling you that there were other practices in place as well.  If the

 8     gentleman who was the duty officer didn't -- wasn't acquainted with me,

 9     how could he have then stated that I wasn't there in the first place?  I

10     don't have the entire witness's statement in front of me.  What I can

11     tell you is that I went to the Zvornik Brigade, and I did as much as I

12     related.  I don't want to take up your time any more.  I repeat that I

13     was in the Zvornik Brigade to -- there to convey the order I got from

14     Mr. Beara, and I state that today as well.

15             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that I'll take more

16     than five minutes after the break.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you, but we need to have the

18     break now.  Thank you.  We'll resume at 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   I have several questions for you still.  Please have patience.

24             In the course of your today's testimony, pages -- page 21, lines

25     21 to 22, you said that when you were at the IKM you said the following:

Page 33264

 1     "I believe that one of the individuals," and you meant the communications

 2     officers, "appeared in the doorway without stepping outside."

 3             Do you recall where exactly it was that the individual was

 4     standing in the house?

 5        A.   I believe he was in the doorway of the front door.  Drago Nikolic

 6     got out of the house, and he stood in the doorway which was to my left,

 7     if I recall correctly.  He came to the door, to be precise.

 8        Q.   Was there a patio or were there any steps in front of the door?

 9        A.   There were steps, if I remember correctly.

10        Q.   Can you describe the man who stopped at the door as you were

11     approaching the house?

12        A.   I've already answered the question.  I said that I don't want to

13     speculate or describe persons I saw at a glance for some 30 seconds and

14     only once in my life.  He wore a uniform, and -- as well as everybody

15     else, and they all looked alike.  I don't want to speculate.  That's why

16     I'm asking you not to ask me to describe him.

17        Q.   And he must have been standing on the top of the stairs and must

18     have been in a higher position compared to you.

19        A.   I told you where he stood.

20        Q.   But you suppose that he was a communications officer.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Slow down, please, and allow for a pause between

22     question and answer.  Thank you.

23             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

24        Q.   You assumed that he was a communications officer on duty together

25     with Drago Nikolic.

Page 33265

 1        A.   Madam Nikolic, I've already answered that question.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Be patient, please.  Let's proceed.

 3             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, a communications officer testified before this Trial

 5     Chamber who was on duty with Drago Nikolic at the IKM on the 13th of July

 6     2000 -- or, rather, it was on the 6th of September, 2009 that he

 7     testified, pages 21295, lines 10 to 13.

 8             In answer to the question whether on the 13th of July an officer

 9     came to the IKM, either from the Zvornik Brigade or any other unit, he

10     said that nobody came.

11             In view of this and the fact that you do not recall a multitude

12     of details, in view of the fact that you positioned the house

13     erroneously, and in view of the contrary evidence, throughout the period

14     of time you were negotiating a plea agreement and you were giving a

15     statement of facts, you were under a great deal of pressure, you wanted

16     the agreement to come about, you will agree with me that one of the

17     important topics that you discussed with the OTP was that you should

18     provide them with details as to who decided when to send prisoners from

19     Bratunac to -- to Zvornik, that you were told that unless you provided

20     them with the details there would be no agreement with the OTP

21     forthcoming.  You were not either in the Zvornik Brigade [realtime

22     transcript read in error "orally"] or at the IKM.  You fabricated this

23     story about your visit to HQ and to the IKM because you simply didn't

24     have a choice; is that right?

25        A.   These are your conclusions, Madam Nikolic.

Page 33266

 1        Q.   I have no further questions.

 2        A.   I have need to answer the question you put to me.  What you

 3     presented here is a conclusion of yours and you're entitled to that.  The

 4     only point I want to make is that you do not have a single shred of

 5     evidence, and let me tell you that the OTP had never conditioned my

 6     agreement on me providing them information about Zvornik and the transfer

 7     of prisoners to Zvornik.  It had never been conditioned upon my

 8     agreement.  I claim that the OTP had never presented such a condition as

 9     you presented here, or any other condition.  I stated in my previous

10     evidence that as with every other negotiations there were problems and

11     points where we disagreed, but unlike what you said, there was no

12     blackmailing.  I wasn't either blackmailed or compelled or conditioned by

13     anything and induced into an agreement in this way.  That's what I wanted

14     to say.

15        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, you testified that you were under a great deal of

16     pressure and that you wanted dearly for the agreement to come about.  Let

17     me just make a correction.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop.  Don't overlap, please.  You've been

19     overlapping.  Ms. Nikolic, if you could kindly proceed.

20             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Allow me to make a correction in

21     the transcript.  Page 34, line 15.  I said he wasn't either at the

22     Zvornik Brigade or at the IKM, and we have erroneously the word "orally"

23     there.  Can this be corrected.

24             Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no further questions.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Your last question was not recorded at all, as well

Page 33267

 1     as his answer.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  I will repeat what we have here.  You need to look

 3     at line 8 of page 35, madam.

 4             Mr. Nikolic, you testified that you were under a great deal of

 5     pressure and that you wanted dearly for the agreement to come about, and

 6     then you said something else, and he intervened.  I don't know what he

 7     said.  That's when I asked you to -- not to overlap, both of you, but in

 8     the meantime we don't know what else you said, and we don't know what

 9     Mr. Nikolic replied.  So what was your question?

10             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I didn't have anymore questions,

11     Your Honour.  That was my statement at the end.  I have no further

12     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only want to --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- say that the relations I had

16     with OTP concerning the negotiations and the pressure that Madam Nikolic

17     referred to, all of these matters have been extensively discussed by me,

18     and I have nothing to add on this score.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Next is the Borovcanin Defence team.

20     Mr. Gosnell, if you could introduce yourself to the witness, please.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   My name is Chris Gosnell and I represent Mr. Borovcanin along

Page 33268

 1     with my colleagues here.  I'm going to be asking you a few questions this

 2     morning.  I will try to make these questions as clear and as focussed as

 3     possible, but by all means if there is anything that's vague or not

 4     clear, please let know and I'll do my best to clarify.  Do you

 5     understand?

 6        A.   I do.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to start with Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic's

 8     role in Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P4482.

10        Q.   Sir, coming up on --

11             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry.  And page 31 in the English and page 13

12     in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   Sir, what you see coming up on the screen in front you is an

14     extract of your testimony in the Trbic case before the BiH State Court on

15     the 1st of September, 2008.  And here's what you say during that

16     testimony:

17                      "Q.  After what you saw and what you did in Potocari on

18     the 12th of July, 1995, did you tell Colonel Radoslav Jankovic about

19     that?

20                      "A.  There was no need for me to inform him given that

21     Colonel Jankovic himself was deployed in Potocari.  He was the one in

22     charge, not myself.  Colonel Jankovic was the one who established

23     contacts, who took over all the affairs pertaining to security and

24     intelligence that have to be performed by the Bratunac Brigade.  Colonel

25     Jankovic performed these activities on behalf of the Bratunac Brigade,

Page 33269

 1     presumably upon the order of the Main Staff.  So there was nothing to

 2     communicate to him as he was the one in charge.  He was the boss and the

 3     person in charge of everything."

 4             Now, first of all I want to ask you, sir, do you stand by that

 5     statement?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And do you confirm that indeed Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic was

 8     physically present in Potocari on the 12th of July while the evacuation

 9     and screening process was under way?

10        A.   Yes, he was there.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, this Chamber has heard testimony from a Dutch

12     officer who said that he complained directly to

13     Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic during this evacuation process on the 12th of

14     July, and he complained about his officers not having access to the white

15     house where detainees were being held.

16             Did you ever hear or learn about Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic

17     talking to DutchBat personnel about such issues during the evacuation?

18        A.   I can answer this question in the following way:  As for the

19     contacts and discussions of all matters related to the attitude of the

20     VRS, and primarily I'm referring to the Bratunac Brigade, before

21     Colonel Jankovic's arrival, in addition to my duties which were the

22     duties of an security and intelligence officer, I also discharged the

23     duties of communications officer, liaison officer, with DutchBat in the

24     area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade.  Other people were in

25     charge of other areas.  Colonel Vukovic Vukota was for the Skelani

Page 33270

 1     Brigade, and for the Milici Brigade it was Major Sargic who was in

 2     charge, and he was part of the team negotiating on all the issues related

 3     to Srebrenica.

 4             With Colonel Jankovic's arrival, and this is something that I

 5     testified about before, he himself came to my office and said that he had

 6     orders from the Main Staff that in view of the seriousness of the

 7     situation and in view of what was to follow in the subsequent several

 8     days, that he would be taking over the duties that I discharged since I

 9     was only a Captain and a reserve officer at that.  And among other

10     things, he told me that all the subsequent contacts with DutchBat

11     personnel and representatives of the international forces in Srebrenica

12     would now come under his competence and that he would be the one to

13     personally decide on these matters, schedule meetings, and everything

14     else.  Indeed this is how things happened.

15             I'm telling you what I know.  I can't talk about specific

16     meetings and me having been present there to see these things happen.

17     What I can confirm, though, is what you can find in a number of documents

18     that I was able to see before the start of process.

19             I can't give you the time line about me seeing Colonel Jankovic

20     meeting with officers.  I can't tell you the matters that they discussed.

21     What I can confirm is that he was among the officers who independently

22     took decisions, as far as I was able to see.  He specifically decided

23     about who he was going to meet with and when, and it is on that basis

24     that you -- what -- what the basis from which his authorities and powers

25     followed was something that I can't tell you.  Presumably, he was

Page 33271

 1     conferred upon these powers by his superiors.  I can tell you that he

 2     independently took decisions and scheduled meetings and decided on

 3     whatever he was asked to decide upon.  That's what I can tell you.

 4        Q.   I thank you, sir.  That's very helpful.  And on that point let's

 5     bring up 4D726.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Now, just for my friends in the courtroom, this is

 7     actually an extract from Mr. Nikolic's testimony in Blagojevic, and we

 8     have simply put it into a separate document so that it will come up more

 9     quickly on the screen.

10        Q.   Now, sir, I'm sorry, we don't have this in B/C/S, but it's there

11     on the screen in front you in English, and you were asked in this passage

12     about Colonel Jankovic's authority over the evacuation of refugees, the

13     basis for his authority, and you were asked specifically whether Jankovic

14     could give you orders, and here's what you said in response, and this is

15     at line 23 of transcript page 1920:

16              "As I understood the rules and in view of the position held by

17     Colonel Jankovic - so I'm answering your first question first - his

18     arrival to the Bratunac Brigade and his visit to my office and his

19     contacts and presence there created the conviction that he was a man from

20     the Main Staff who can give me orders as to what I should do when it

21     comes to the prisoners, the refugees, because generally speaking and as a

22     rule, I knew and was aware even before receiving the order that concern

23     for the refugees and the prisoners, their Assembly, their securing and

24     transportation, was within the competence of the intelligence and

25     security organ."

Page 33272

 1             Now, of course taking into account what you've said in your

 2     further statement of facts, I just want to ask you whether you would

 3     confirm this statement that you made in Blagojevic.

 4        A.   Yes, I can confirm this statement, and that was the impression I

 5     gained at the time, without any doubt.  My position today of the role and

 6     the relations that prevailed at the time does not differ from what it was

 7     then.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, last week during your testimony you said in

 9     response to a question from my learned friend from the Prosecution that

10     you were not an expert in relation to matters concerning the MUP chain of

11     command, but then you described your understanding that MUP forces in the

12     area of the Zvornik Security Centre were under the authority of

13     Dragomir Vasic, and we, to be clear, do not dispute that.  But now I want

14     to ask you specifically about the status of units assigned to

15     Mr. Borovcanin.

16             And could we please have on the screen 4D337.

17             Now, sir, you were shown this document during your interview with

18     Mr. McCloskey in May 2003.  Do you remember him doing that, showing you

19     this document during at that interview.

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   All right.  Could we now have on the screen P4472.  And this is

22     page 102 of the English, please, and page 104 of the B/C/S.

23             Now, in English it's starting at the top of the page on line 1,

24     and Mr. McCloskey is asking you about this order.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  I believe the B/C/S needs to be scrolled down

Page 33273

 1     slightly to line 19, I believe, in the B/C/S version.

 2        Q.   Now, your answer in response to the query from Mr. McCloskey

 3     about the meaning of this document, you said, and I quote:

 4              "This means to me that the police forces under the command of

 5     Mr. Borovcanin, that they are coming into the area of responsibility of

 6     the Bratunac, that they are gonna be tasked with General Krstic, and they

 7     are being put under his command."

 8             Then Mr. McCloskey asks you:

 9              "Okay.  Why can't this mean they are just working together as

10     partners with General Krstic and the army?

11                 "A.  But they usually work together, but it's logical that

12     the commander of the operation is General Krstic, and it's logical that

13     the police units are being put under the command of the military units in

14     the field.

15                 "Q.  Based on what?

16                 "A.  It's defined by law.

17                 "Q.  So it's more than just logical.  It has a legal

18     requirement.

19                 "A.  Yes.  There is a law that defines these relations."

20             Now, sir, do you stand by what you answered Mr. McCloskey during

21     that interview?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.  Now, given this authority that

24     you've just described about Colonel Jankovic, and given this particular

25     order and your interpretation of the order, would it be correct to say

Page 33274

 1     that Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic also had the authority to issue

 2     instructions to Dusko Jevic concerning how to carry out the process of

 3     evacuation in Potocari?

 4               I'm told that there might have been a slight mistranslation.

 5     Let me just repeat the question then in its totality.

 6             Given the authority that you described Lieutenant-Colonel

 7     Jankovic having and given this order that we've just looked at and your

 8     interpretation thereof, would it be correct to say that

 9     Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic had the authority to issue instructions to

10     Dusko Jevic as to how to carry out the process of evacuating people from

11     Potocari on the 12th of July?

12        A.   I can try to tell you what my opinion is about this.  I think

13     that Colonel Jankovic, I don't know that, I don't know what kind of

14     authorisation he had been given, that's not something that I know of,

15     whether he received that from General Krstic or General Mladic and a what

16     kind of powers that they conferred upon him, therefore I cannot confirm

17     what you are asking me about, whether he could give orders, but given

18     what I saw and what happened in Potocari, I personally think, but I

19     reiterate once again that I'm not an expert in this area, I can only give

20     you my personal opinion, which is that considering the relationship that

21     existed between the police and the army, I think that Colonel Jankovic

22     could tell Mr. Jevic or to suggest to him what to do and how to do it,

23     and I think it's only natural.  This kind of cooperation and this kind of

24     relationship is only natural.  However, I cannot talk about command

25     relationship because I know nothing about that.  Who is in command, who

Page 33275

 1     can issue orders to whom, I wouldn't like to guess about that.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  I would now like to go on to a new

 3     topic and to go back to the 11th of July, 1995.  And in your statement of

 4     facts and also your testimony last week, you've described that you were

 5     receiving intelligence information about what was going on in the enclave

 6     on the 11th.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  And can we now have 4D692, please.  Can we just

 8     have the B/C/S down in the bottom of the page, please, and then scroll it

 9     back up.

10        Q.   Sir, if you would like to have a look at a hard copy of any of

11     these documents, we're very happy to provide one to you.  Would that

12     assist you, sir?

13        A.   It's not necessary.  I can see this.  It's important that I

14     understand what the contents are.

15        Q.   Sure.  And, sir, that is report or an information of some sort

16     apparently from you addressed to the Drina Corps Command, specifically to

17     the attention of General Krstic at the IKM, which we know was at

18     Pribicevac, and this is dated the 11th of July, and the handwritten

19     receipt seems to indicate that this document was received at 1350 hours

20     on that day.

21             Now, you've already testified last week about having prepared

22     intelligence documents, reports, on this day.  Do you remember having

23     drafted or sent this particular document?

24        A.   From what I see here, I cannot deduce that, but if you have this

25     in a handwritten document, if possible, then I can decisively say whether

Page 33276

 1     this is something that I drafted or not.  Or if I can look at the

 2     signature, because I'm not sure that this is my handwriting, but we can

 3     have a look at it provided you have a handwritten version of the document

 4     that I can be more precise in giving you an answer.

 5        Q.   Well, that's -- that's fair enough, sir.  Unfortunately, we don't

 6     have a handwritten version of this document.  But in any event, I would

 7     just like to ask -- direct your attention to the middle of the page where

 8     it says:

 9              "Muslims are pulling out of Srebrenica towards Potocari, heading

10     to Suceska, Milacivici, Pale.  Command of the 28th Division has been

11     moved to the village of Potocari. "

12             Now, regardless of whether you actually prepared this document, I

13     wonder whether you can tell us whether this is consistent with the

14     information that you had at that time.

15        A.   Let me tell you this -- excuse me.  There was lots of information

16     and reports that I was sending those days.  I do not deny at all that I

17     could have sent a report of this kind.  I am not disputing that, but I

18     don't remember.  I think that either this is the first time that I see

19     this document, or maybe I just forgotten about it.  I sent out lots of

20     information and reports, maybe several times a day on occasion.

21     Therefore, I cannot remember specifically this information, because I

22     wrote them all, being in the capacity of an intelligence and security

23     organ.

24             And, excuse me, one more thing.  Provided I can see the

25     handwriting, then I can say for sure that this was a report sent out by

Page 33277

 1     me as it is.  But the content of this report is particularly something

 2     that pertains to that period and the events that took place in that

 3     period.  I only have doubts about this statement that the command of the

 4     28th Division was relocated to Potocari.  I think that I personally would

 5     never have written something like this.

 6        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that answer, sir.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  If we could now have 4D693, please.  Now, this

 8     appears to be a draft handwritten order for active combat operations from

 9     the Drina Corps Command, from the IKM at Pribicevac.  It's not dated, but

10     for the benefit of my friends in the courtroom, these two documents, the

11     previous one and then this one, were found together on the EDS general

12     collection, and they have sequential ERN numbers.  And this is addressed

13     to the Milici Brigade, and the first item says that:

14             "The Milici Brigade is to take control of the village of

15     Kutuzero."

16             And the second item says:

17             "Bratunac Brigade towards Milacevici."

18             And it says that it is an order for active operations.

19        Q.   Now, I'm not going to ask you whether you saw this document at

20     the time.  I'd simply like to know whether you ever heard whether

21     Bratunac Brigade forces were sent towards Milacevici, or did you hear

22     about any other unit instead having been sent towards Milacevici?

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

24             MR. THAYER:  Just so the record is clear, is there any particular

25     date that we're talking about or any time during this entire operation

Page 33278

 1     that may be more useful for us?

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, we are talking about the time period, so I

 4     first of all restrict it to the 12th and 13th.  Let's start there.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All Right.  Let's [overlapping speakers].

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Or, I'm sorry, perhaps I should also include the

 7     evening, late afternoon, evening, of the 11th, or the 12th and 13th.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  That's clear enough for the time

 9     being.

10             Mr. Nikolic, do you wish the question repeated?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no need.  The question is

12     clear to me, but I don't think I can say anything about this document,

13     because I see it for the first time.  I can see only one sheet in front

14     of me.  It doesn't tell me anything.

15             In that period the Bratunac Brigade, and I'm talking exclusively

16     about the Bratunac Brigade.  I don't know nothing -- anything about the

17     Milici Brigade.  The Bratunac Brigade was engaged in that period but

18     which orders it received and which tasks were given to it on which dates,

19     except the one relating to Milacevici, I can't say anything further

20     because I can't read anything from this document, and I can't be more

21     specific.

22             I know what the Bratunac Brigade and the battalions had as a task

23     within the operation.  This probably refers to the movement of units

24     to -- I don't know really.  I wouldn't like to comment on something that

25     I know nothing about.

Page 33279

 1        Q.   All right.  That's fair enough, sir.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we now have 4D694, please, on e-court,

 3     please.

 4        Q.   Sir, this is a report from the head of the security and

 5     intelligence organ of the Milici Brigade, Lieutenant-Colonel Goran

 6     Kalvesic [phoen], and there on the first line -- and it's dated the 12th

 7     of July, addressed to the Drina Corps Security and Intelligence

 8     Department, and there in the first line it says:

 9              "On," and then there's an illegible word, "at about 1600 hours

10     in the general area of Buljim, the following person detached from a group

11     of soldiers that was moving from the direction of Srebrenica and

12     surrendered to the VRS."

13             Now, this document would seem to suggest that there were forces

14     from the Milici Brigade around Ravni Buljim at this time.  Did you ever

15     hear about the presence of Milici Brigade forces in that area at that

16     time?

17        A.   Certainly.  The Milici Brigade, concerning the area that you are

18     commencing, that is the Ravni Buljim sector was in direct contact with

19     the forces of the Bratunac Brigade in this particular section.  So if I

20     remember correctly, or in Ravni Buljim or thereabouts is exactly where

21     the zone of responsibility of the Milici Brigade begins; that is, from

22     Bratunac towards Milici, and then from Ravni Buljim to Bratunac is the

23     area of responsibility of the Milici Brigade.  And this is the point of

24     linking between the units of the Bratunac Brigade and units of the Milici

25     Brigade.

Page 33280

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you, sir.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  And just to tie this up with a couple of additional

 3     documents, could we please have 4D695, please.

 4        Q.   And this appears, sir, to be a dispatch from the Milici Public

 5     Security Station, dated 12 July 1995.  This document suggests that forces

 6     of the Milici Brigade were in contact with the Bosnian Muslim column in

 7     the area of Pobuda on 12 July, and that they were asking the Zvornik CJB

 8     for assistance in searching out these forces.

 9             Now, I realise that you probably didn't see this document, but I

10     would like you to confirm it you can whether you ever heard about the

11     presence of the Milici Brigade in the area of Pobuda at this time.

12        A.   I really wouldn't like to speak about something that I'm not

13     familiar with.  Whether they were in the area or not, I really don't

14     know.  I can confirm that this is the first time that I'm seeing this

15     document.  I am sure that I didn't have any direct information about

16     their presence in this area, nor have I ever seen a document that would

17     help me to conclude that they were definitely there.  That is my answer.

18     Of course, this area was also -- actually, it wasn't very close to them,

19     but I do not rule out the possibility that they were deployed there.  I

20     simply don't know.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, let's just have one last document on this

22     topic, and that is 4D697.

23             Sir, can you focus your attention on -- well, this is a report, a

24     daily combat report from the Milici Brigade to the Drina Corps command,

25     dated 14 July 1995, and I'd like to address your attention to item 9.

Page 33281

 1             Now, again, probably you've never seen this document before and I

 2     understand that, but I'd like to ask you about the content of item 9,

 3     which says:

 4              "Continue with intense and organised search of the terrain with

 5     the aim to destroy the broken-up enemy groups in the depth of our

 6     territory and in the territory of the former enclave."

 7             Now, does this document in any way refresh your memory about

 8     whether or not there may have been combat going on in this area with

 9     forces of the Milici Brigade, please?

10        A.   I can only try to deduce a logical conclusion, and I'm reluctant

11     to do that.  I have no knowledge.  I didn't have any information about

12     their being engaged in these tasks, and I know nothing about what the

13     Milici Brigade was actually engaged in.  I can only draw some conclusions

14     on the basis of what I see in front of me, and I wouldn't like to do

15     that.

16        Q.   I wouldn't like you to do that either, sir, so thank you very

17     much for your answer.  I understand.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we now have the assistance of the usher to

19     move a map near the witness.  Now, this map is in e-court as P1504,

20     but -- and we should call it up on the screen, please.  But unfortunately

21     the quality of scanning is fairly low, so it would be very difficult for

22     those in the courtroom to follow, specifically some of the notations I'm

23     going to go through the witness with, but let me assure you that we'll

24     rescan it and have a version in e-court that is of a higher quality.

25        Q.   Now, sir, what you have before you is a map, and it has a title

Page 33282

 1     which says:  "Plan of Deployment of Drina Corps Forces to Prevent Enemy

 2     Forces from the enclaves Zepa and Srebrenica to Pass Towards Kladanj,

 3     Tuzla."  The map is dated 1995, but there's no more specific date on it

 4     and it's not signed.

 5             Now, sir, do you remember at any time having seen this map before

 6     today?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, I just have a few questions about some of the

 9     notations on the map, and I'd like to ask you if you can just assist us

10     with what those notations are and what you think they might be

11     describing.

12             If you look closely at Srebrenica town and Potocari, you'll see a

13     series of blue flags with writing.  Can you tell us what that writing

14     appears to be and what it designates, to the best of your knowledge?

15        A.   These blue flags, as far as I can see in the map, indicates the

16     command post -- posts of certain units.  If I see it correctly.  I don't

17     see the numbers or designations, none of that, but these are command

18     posts, as far as I can tell.

19        Q.   Command posts of which army?

20        A.   Members of the 28th Division.

21        Q.   All right.  And if you look further north and find the junction

22     of Konjevic Polje.  Can you see that?  You might, perhaps, need to move a

23     little closer if that's all right.

24        A.   May I stand up?

25        Q.   Please.

Page 33283

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  We cannot hear the witness.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. Nikolic, because --

 3             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Of course you were not speaking into the

 5     microphone and you were not listening to the interpretation because you

 6     did not have your headphones on.  If you could tell us which part or what

 7     did you point to on the map when you were standing next to it, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I pointed the direction, actually,

 9     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, because the gentleman asked me about

10     Konjevic Polje, and to look what is annotated where Konjevic Polje is.  I

11     got up.  I found this road between Potocari-Bratunac via Konjevic Polje,

12     and I looked at what is situated in the area around Konjevic Polje.

13             MR. GOSNELL:

14        Q.   All right.  Sir, do you see a red flag situated near that

15     intersection?  Just for clarification, a red flag in that same area where

16     the intersection is.

17        A.   I only see one red flag, and I can show it to you in order to

18     avoid any misunderstanding.  Here it is.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you, sir.  And can you confirm that the

20     notation there next to that flag indicates that elements of the

21     5th Engineering Battalion were located at that spot and elements of

22     civilian police as well?

23        A.   What I can see on the map, an engineering unit was in Konjevic

24     Polje.  It says here the 5th Engineers Battalion.  I know which unit it

25     was.  And also, there were MUP forces there -- or, rather, MUP units.

Page 33284

 1     That is as far as I know.  It was not any particular MUP unit.  It was a

 2     squad, although a squad is a unit, but they were manning this check-point

 3     which was held by the MUP.

 4             Excuse me.  Just one more thing.  And this squad, as far as I

 5     know, at that time was part of the Bratunac Public Security Station, the

 6     chief of which Mr. Miodrag Anovic [as interpreted].

 7        Q.   Now, sir, that MUP squad that you've just referred to, was that,

 8     to the best of your knowledge, more or less continuously at that location

 9     from March through July 1995, if you know?

10        A.   I do.  I travelled along at that route.  What I know for a fact

11     is that it was a unit with a permanent task of manning the check-point.

12     I don't know what their task specifically was, but it was a check-point

13     in the area of Konjevic Polje, and they were members of the Bratunac

14     Public Security Station, and they rotated on that check-point.  So the

15     personnel manning the check-point was not always the same.  They rotated

16     from among the ranks of the Bratunac Public Security Station.

17        Q.   Now, sir, just a correction for the transcript.  You identified

18     the commander of the Bratunac public security station as Miodrag -- the

19     transcript says Miodrag Stojanovic.  Can you confirm that it's Miodrag

20     Josipovic?

21        A.   Yes, I can.  Miodrag Josipovic was the chief of the Bratunac

22     Public Security Station.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Can we have 4D651, please.

24        Q.   Sir, this appears to be an order from the commander of the

25     Bratunac Brigade, Colonel Blagojevic, dated 10 July 1995, and the subject

Page 33285

 1     line is:  "Order to Mobilise Men Liable for Military Service who are

 2     Engaged in Compulsory Work."

 3             And it says:

 4             "Pursuant to the order of the commander of the Main Staff of the

 5     VRS aimed at breaking the enemy offensive in the Bratunac and Srebrenica

 6     municipality areas I hereby order:

 7              "1.  Fully mobilise all men liable for military service engaged

 8     in compulsory work by 1800 hours on 10 July..."

 9             Now, I'm not going to ask you, sir, whether you saw this order.

10     I'm just going to ask whether you know this order was issued and

11     implemented.

12        A.   Give me a moment.  As you can see for yourself, the order was

13     sent to the Ministry of Defence and archived.  It wasn't sent to any

14     other bodies or members of the brigade command.  Consequently, I didn't

15     see the order, but I do know that the forces -- or, rather, the persons

16     referred to in this order were mobilised.

17             All the able-bodied men who were engaged in work obligation were

18     mobilised, and now I can see that it was pursuant to this order that the

19     mobilisation I knew of was carried out.  However, I didn't see the order

20     itself.  I may have seen it among the documents but did not pay much

21     attention to it because it was not addressed to me, and it was not

22     related to me.

23        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  I have no further questions.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

25             Ms. Fauveau.

Page 33286

 1             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  My name Ms. Natasha Fauveau

 4     Ivanovic and I represent General Miletic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   I would like to ask you a few questions regarding the activities

 7     on the Bratunac Brigade on the Zuti Most.

 8             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 4D605,

 9     please.  And while we're waiting for this document to be -- to appear on

10     the screens --

11        Q.   -- it's document that bears your name and the document bears the

12     date of the 10th of December, 1994.

13             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I need page 5 in B/C/S, please, and

14     we have the right page in English, in fact.

15             In this document we can see that it talks about the seizure of a

16     vehicle that belonged to Medecins sans Frontieres, Doctors Without

17     Borders, and this was something that was not told the coordination organ.

18     This is a piece of equipment that was not reported to the coordination

19     organ.

20        Q.   Do you recall this document, sir?

21        A.   I recall the document, and by what I can see, I am the author of

22     the document.

23        Q.   What I'm particularly interested in with respect to this document

24     is -- is the second paragraph in English, and in B/C/S it's line number

25     6, the sentence that begins with "By the request."

Page 33287

 1              [In English] "By the request one did not seek and the

 2     coordinating body did not approve import of plumbing-related material."

 3             [Interpretation] Were you able to find this excerpt?

 4        A.   But I wanted to read through most of the report.

 5        Q.   I would like to draw your attention to the following:  According

 6     to this document, it would appear that Doctors Without Borders tried to

 7     introduce into the enclave material for which it did not have

 8     authorisation.  Is it true to say that international organisations, the

 9     various international organisations that would enter the enclave used

10     humanitarian convoys and to bring material into Srebrenica, prohibited

11     merchandise that was then used by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12        A.   What you said is something that I cannot agree with.  There were

13     isolated cases of violation in terms of what they held permission for.

14     This is something that I do not dispute, and my attitude toward it was as

15     it was.  Whatever was not granted permission from the coordinating body

16     and whatever was not entered into the accompanying documentation they had

17     on them was something that I insisted should not get into Srebrenica.

18             However, one cannot generalise the way you did.  These were

19     individual cases.  What you said, that this was for military purposes,

20     well, one can clearly say that this particular case involved plumbing

21     material, and that's at least what I heard through interpretation.  I

22     apologise if this is wrong.

23             Generally speaking, this was not an issue.  There were individual

24     cases.  Whatever was not given permission for was taken away, was seized

25     by those manning the check-point.  Of course, only after they had

Page 33288

 1     consulted with the corps as to whether the material should be seized or

 2     not, as to what sort of status the material would be granted after it was

 3     seized.

 4             That's as much as I know about the work of the check-point.

 5        Q.   I would like to show you Exhibit 5D955.  This is an exhibit

 6     stemming from the army or, rather, the Ministry of Defence of BiH of

 7     Srebrenica.  I imagine that you never saw this document previously.  I

 8     would like you to read the document and pay particular attention to the

 9     last paragraph of this document, please.

10        A.   I've read it.

11        Q.   Do you agree now that some of the merchandise that would enter

12     Srebrenica was used for military purposes?

13        A.   [Previous translation continues]... don't.  I do not agree,

14     because I am privy to all the details related to this.  Where they say

15     that some of this was received from the DutchBat does not in itself carry

16     the meaning you confer upon it.  The DutchBat -- DutchBat had a team

17     which assisted both us, the civilians in Bratunac, and the civilians in

18     Srebrenica.

19             Let me be quite precise.  I do not wish to assert that some of

20     the provisions they gave them were not used for military purposes by

21     those in Srebrenica, but likewise, the humanitarian aid given by DutchBat

22     to the civilians in Bratunac was also partly used by us, the VRS.  The

23     DutchBat provided the humanitarian aid to the civilians both in

24     Srebrenica and Bratunac.  That much I can tell you.  They had a team

25     which was in charge of these issues only.

Page 33289

 1             I talked to them, and do you know what they told me in response?

 2     They wanted to accord equal treatment to all the population in Srebrenica

 3     and Bratunac and to appease the generally hostile atmosphere prevailing

 4     in the area.  They wanted the people to see them as a party that had good

 5     intentions toward everyone.  We discussed these matters quite often.

 6        Q.   In this document their is a mention of food.  So DutchBat had

 7     sufficient amounts of food to also give or distribute to the enclave.

 8     They did not miss out on food.

 9        A.   The only thing I can tell you is this, and I do have documents

10     supporting this that I can show to you indicating that DutchBat personnel

11     in this particular period of time, and I don't know what the situation

12     was like other than through what they told me.  I don't know what their

13     food provisions were, but at the time, they had a very high dynamic of

14     food supplies coming in from the territory or from a company that was in

15     the territory of Bratunac.

16             I have documents indicating in what way the supplies came through

17     and what they consisted of in this particular period of time.

18        Q.   They had the approval of the competent organs of the Republika

19     Srpska in order to get all this in Bratunac, and that was at the Hotel

20     Fontana; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.  They had all the permits from representatives of the

22     civilian authorities, in other words, ministries that were competent for

23     these matters.  They had the permits from the military authorities,

24     including the Main Staff and the Drina Corps, which detailed the needs to

25     carry out checks of the goods, and they had also the necessary permits

Page 33290

 1     from their own HQ in Tuzla.  That's what I know.  I have the complete

 2     documentation about these matters with me.

 3        Q.   The document that we just saw previously concerning -- about the

 4     material and the equipment that the MSF was trying to bring to Srebrenica

 5     mentioned a coordination organ.  I would like to show you Exhibit 5D1437,

 6     and this is an approval from the coordination organ.

 7             Is it true to say that the Bratunac Brigade did not receive these

 8     approvals from the coordination organ, but the -- but it was sent by the

 9     Main Staff?

10        A.   This is the first time I'm seeing this sort of notification from

11     the coordinating body.  What we received were exhaustive lists of all the

12     items that were supposed to enter the enclave within a particular convoy.

13     They detailed the items and quantities involved, as well as the means of

14     transport involved.

15             I had never seen a certificate, receipt, or permission from --

16     bearing the signature of Mr. Dragan Kekic.  I know who Dragan Kekic is.

17             We received an order from the Main Staff via the Drina Corps on

18     to specific brigades.  In most of the cases, these documents were signed

19     by General Milovanovic, the chief of staff.  In certain cases there were

20     names of the late Koljevic and Madam Biljana Plavsic there as well.  They

21     must have made up the coordinating body.  However, in most of the cases

22     the signature was of Mr. Milovanovic.

23        Q.   Witness, tell us, is it true that no humanitarian convey from the

24     UNPROFOR was able to go through the check-point in Zuti Most unless they

25     had this information or this document from the Main Staff?

Page 33291

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.  My apologies, or the Drina Corps.

 2        Q.   Do you know when the check-point in Zuti Most was established?

 3     Approximately if you know, tell us.

 4        A.   Approximately after the setting up of the Srebrenica enclave.  I

 5     don't know the exact date.  There are documents bearing the exact date of

 6     its establishment.

 7        Q.   I would like to show you now document P2678.  This is a document

 8     stemming from General Milovanovic.  The document bears the date of the

 9     2nd of April, 1995.

10             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Would it be possible to show point

11     3?  It's at the very bottom of the first page.

12        Q.   As you can see here, we can see that an ICRC team was to enter

13     Srebrenica on the 5th of April, 1995, and they were supposed to go back

14     on the 8th of April, 1995, and return, actually, on the 8th of April,

15     1995.

16        A.   Yes, I can see that.

17             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be

18     shown page 3 on both languages.  It's page 3 in English and B/C/S.

19        Q.   On this page, points 4 and 5 mention the MSF teams that were to

20     enter into Srebrenica on the 4th of April.

21        A.   Yes, I can see that.

22        Q.   Is it correct to say that all these convoys, before they would

23     arrive to the check-point at Zuti Most, had to go through a check-point

24     when they would enter on the territory of the Republika Srpska?

25        A.   Based on what I know, yes.

Page 33292

 1        Q.   Now, tell us, these convoys were checked at the first check-point

 2     when they would enter on the territory of Republika Srpska; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Presumably.  That's the information I had, that they were checked

 5     upon their entry into the territory of Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   Is it not true to say that in Zuti Most all you had to do was to

 7     make sure that this was a convoy that was already announced without

 8     really making a detailed control of the merchandise it was carrying?

 9        A.   That's not true.  My brigade commander set up -- or, rather,

10     appointed a group of persons who were charged with doing this alone and

11     at Zuti Most.  Depending on the circumstances of a case, checks were

12     carried out to make sure that the goods matched the supporting

13     documentation insofar as the persons doing this deemed was necessary to

14     do that.  They wouldn't proceed to rummage through tons and tons of

15     flour.  There were individuals who had that particular job and did it

16     based on their discretion.

17             Had there been no need for a check-point to be manned at Zuti

18     Most, then it would have been abolished by the brigade commander or the

19     corps commander, or they would have issued instructions detailing in what

20     other manner the convoys were to be checked.  However, this was the

21     procedure put in place in order to make sure that the convoys entering

22     the area were indeed carrying what the specifications said.

23        Q.   Could you please look at page 4 of this document.

24             According to what General Milovanovic wrote, it was -- what one

25     had to do was to carry out the control and to ensure the movement of

Page 33293

 1     these convoys without any problems.  Would you agree that the

 2     RCIC [as interpreted] teams, as well as MSF teams, were to enter

 3     Srebrenica without any problems after the control was established?

 4        A.   Well, of course I agree.  Once checks were carried out and if

 5     everything was found to match the accompanying documentation, they could

 6     proceed and carry on with their journey without any problems.

 7        Q.   I would like to go back to page 1 of the same document, please.

 8             We can see that there's a handwritten note.  Do you know if you

 9     yourself wrote this note?

10        A.   Yes, that's my note.

11        Q.   Is it your commander at the time?  We see the name of Colonel

12     Ognjenovic.  Did he give you this instruction?

13        A.   Let me tell you, I can't claim with any certainty who it was who

14     gave me the instruction, but I most definitely did not decide this of my

15     own initiative.  I was either told ordered to do that.  This dates from

16     1994.  In view of what the relations with Colonel Ognjenovic were at the

17     time and his attitude toward the enclave and everything else, I can claim

18     almost with certainty that it must have been a part of his order at the

19     time, but I have no proof to back that.  I'm sure that I did not take

20     such decisions out of my own initiative, and I wasn't entitled to either.

21        Q.   Sir, I am not trying to say that you made this up.  However, what

22     I would like to mention to you is that this order that you got from

23     someone was not really corresponding to the instruction of the Main Staff

24     which said that these convoys were to move unhindered through Srebrenica.

25        A.   Yes, I could accept that had there not been constant changes to

Page 33294

 1     this order.  You know, just as I do, that no one would write in an order

 2     or notification that you are going to prevent someone or impose some

 3     additional checks upon them.  It would contain just some normal and usual

 4     communication.

 5             In addition to the written orders we received, very often,

 6     particularly in the period preceding the attack on Srebrenica, orders

 7     were conveyed to me that were given orally, that is to say by telephone,

 8     from the communications centre, the duty operations officer, and the

 9     commander, relating to the convoys, the inspection thereof, and things

10     like that.  That is -- please.  There was no consistency, let's say, for

11     instance like this:  We have received an order.  It has to be complied

12     with fully, and there will be no changes thereto.

13             Quite the contrary.  There were lots of changes to the orders

14     based on my request for further clarification as to what I'm supposed to

15     do.

16             For instance, if a written order says that the entry is granted,

17     but then we receive an oral order to stop it.  Once it reaches Zuti Most

18     we receive an oral order to stop it there.  We halt the convoy.  Then I

19     phone back and ask, "What am I supposed to do next?  I have a written

20     order from the Main Staff that it has to be granted entry without any

21     problems and then in the meantime I receive different orders."

22             So there were lots of misunderstandings and miscommunication and

23     I did my best to cope with the situation, but in 99 per cent of cases we

24     carried out the orders given to us.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's time for the break, madam, if it's convenient

Page 33295

 1     for you.

 2             Ms. Fauveau.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have one more question on this

 4     topic.  I would prefer to put the question now if you agree.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  If my colleagues agree.  Please proceed with your

 6     additional question, and then we'll break afterwards.  Thank you.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   When you would receive these changes with regard to the orders,

 9     you did not know who was at the origin of this change.  The change could

10     have stemmed from the organ of coordination, it could have stemmed from

11     President Karadzic, Mladic, Ivanovic.  You cannot tell us who was making

12     these changes; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll resume in 25 minutes' time.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

19             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   On the 22nd of April you spoke of a dinner that took place in

21     June 1995 at the Fontana Hotel.  Colonel Kingori took part in it.  Is it

22     true that Colonel Kingori needed an authorisation in order to be allowed

23     out of Srebrenica to go to Bratunac?

24        A.   I don't know what you're referring to.  What kind of permit or

25     authorisation?

Page 33296

 1        Q.   Did Colonel Kingori -- did he travel freely in and out of

 2     Bratunac, or did he need an approval, an authorisation in order to cross

 3     the Zuti Most check-point?

 4        A.   Whoever went out of the Srebrenica enclave, whether it be Dutch

 5     Battalion or any other international organisations stationed in

 6     Srebrenica, required a permit from the Serbian side.

 7        Q.   Therefore, in order to go to Bratunac, Colonel Kingori needed

 8     such a permit or authorisation; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes, one can say so.

10        Q.   I have a few questions on the notes that you were kind enough to

11     supply to us at the beginning of your testimony last week.  First of all,

12     can you confirm that the notes were drafted as part of the preparation

13     for your defence?

14        A.   These notes, let me be quite accurate, were an initial foundation

15     of defence case to be prepared by lawyers, giving them instructions as to

16     what they should deal with and what they should prepare.  That is

17     something that I gave them at the very beginning without having insight

18     into other documents and that I thought to be important.  Of course, at a

19     later stage some other documents received from the OTP were reviewed, but

20     this was an initial basis for my lawyers to work upon and for potential

21     witnesses to be called.

22        Q.   Now, speaking of the dinner organised at the Fontana Hotel, the

23     Prosecutor, that was on the 22nd of April, page 32988, the Prosecutor --

24     and the following page, 989, the Prosecutor asked you whether you

25     remembered an observation about Colonel Vukota Vukovic in the presence of

Page 33297

 1     Colonel Kingori.  I'd like to show you an excerpt of your notes.  This is

 2     Exhibit 5D1438, page 3.

 3        A.   Your Honours, am I allowed to use my notes that I have here in

 4     the courtroom?

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but if anyone asks that you make them

 6     available, you will need to.  If -- because I don't know whether they are

 7     the same notes or whether he's got additional notes.  These are the same

 8     ones we photocopied earlier on when you first started giving evidence

 9     last week, aren't they?  They're not something new.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the notes.  And if you

11     wish to look at them --

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  If it's the same notes, there's no problem, but

13     anyone can ask to make sure -- can see them to make sure that they are.

14             So Ms. Fauveau, you may proceed.

15             Mr. Nikolic, you may refer to your notes.

16             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   This is the part of your notes in which -- or that dealt with --

18     with the statement by Mr. Kingori.  In the meantime, can we move to

19     e-court -- in e-court to the following page, page 4.

20        A.   I'm sorry, I don't want to waste time.  I'm going to look on the

21     screen, but if there is something disputable, I will compare it with my

22     notes.

23        Q.   Can you see this mention written next to the name, to the Vukovic

24     name?  It is indeed a statement allegedly made by Mr. Vukovic to

25     Mr. Kingori, and in between brackets you say it's not exact because

Page 33298

 1     Vukovic would never have said such a thing.

 2        A.   Do you wish me to comment on it?

 3        Q.   Just seek your observation.  Do you maintain what you wrote back

 4     then?

 5        A.   Yes.  As far as Vukovic Vukota is concerned, I stand by what I

 6     say here.

 7        Q.   On the 22nd of April, you also mentioned an action in which the

 8     18th Sabotage Division entered through a tunnel into Srebrenica.  The

 9     10th Sabotage Detachment.

10        A.   You've probably misspoken.  I received a translation saying that

11     it's the 18th Sabotage Division, but I can help you there.  These were

12     elements of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, and it also refers to members

13     of the Bratunac Brigade, from the 3rd Infantry Battalion.  Well, not to

14     complicate things, these were members of the Bratunac Brigade and

15     elements of the 10th Sabotage and Reconnaissance Detachment of the Main

16     Staff, and the action or the operation mentioned here is correct.

17        Q.   It is fair to say that you personally did not take part in the

18     action?

19        A.   I personally didn't enter the tunnel or took -- take part in the

20     tunnel.

21        Q.   Did you take part in the planning of the action?

22        A.   No, I didn't.  This action had been planned, organised, and

23     directed by Colonel Salapura through the commander of the Sabotage

24     Detachment, Mr. Pelemis.  They were both present on the spot.

25        Q.   Do you agree that the Muslims in Srebrenica knew of the tunnel?

Page 33299

 1        A.   Well, that's a question.  Those who worked in the Sase mines knew

 2     about it, because a large number of Muslims from Srebrenica municipality

 3     were employed in the Sase mines, and they lived in the village of the

 4     same name like the Sase mine, and that is the Sase village populated by

 5     Muslims.  After 1992 they all moved to Srebrenica.  Therefore, I can say

 6     that quite a few people who had been living there knew about the

 7     existence of this tunnel, but I don't know who you're specifically

 8     referring to.  If you're referring to the military, they definitely knew

 9     about it, including their officers in the enclave.

10        Q.   Do you know whether the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in

11     Srebrenica sometimes used the tunnel?

12        A.   I really have no information about that.  I do not rule out the

13     possibility that they entered the tunnel, carried out sabotage actions,

14     et cetera, but I have no solid proof of that, but it was definitely

15     possible that they were using it too.

16        Q.   You said earlier that Srebrenica was not demilitarised and that

17     the Muslim armed forces carried out actions from the enclave towards

18     Serbian territory.  It is fair to say that you cannot preclude that some

19     civilian casualties in the enclave were indeed casualties following from

20     Muslim actions in the enclave, fire from Muslim positions?

21        A.   I'm not quite sure that I completely understood you, but I will

22     try to give you an answer.

23        Q.   I can repeat.

24        A.   That the civilian casualties on the Serbian side were the

25     consequence -- please, can you be more precise, if possible.

Page 33300

 1        Q.   Is it possible that some casualties, civilian -- Muslim civilian

 2     casualties in the enclave were the result of some shooting, fire, coming

 3     from the Muslim army?

 4        A.   That they were killing each other?

 5        Q.   Maybe not intentionally, but do you agree that this could have

 6     happened, that fire was misdirected, for instance?

 7        A.   You have put a hypothetical question.  Therefore, I can give you

 8     a hypothetical answer:  Anything is possible.  But I really don't know of

 9     any such instances, but as I say, anything is possible.

10             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be

11     shown Exhibit 5D1434, page 2.

12        Q.   While waiting for the document, let me say that you probably have

13     never seen the document.  It is a document from the Army of Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina, dated 16th of July, 1995.

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can page 2, the bottom of it, be

16     shown.

17        Q.   As you can see, this is document from the Main Staff of the Army

18     of Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated 16th of July, 1995, entitled

19     "Information Regarding the Situation in Srebrenica."

20             Can we move to the next page, please.  Towards the middle of the

21     page there is a paragraph starting with little 1, and then one with

22     little 2.  They mentioned the causes for the fall of Srebrenica as seen

23     by the ABiH.

24             Under item 1, the end of it, mention is made of negotiations

25     between the head of the Srebrenica municipality with the Chetniks.

Page 33301

 1             I just want to know this:  Did you know of negotiations between

 2     the Muslim authorities in Srebrenica and the Serbian authorities?

 3     Whether they be civilian or military, that is not specified in this

 4     document.

 5        A.   Yes.  I knew about these negotiations, and I myself took part in

 6     them on several occasions as part of the negotiating team talking to the

 7     Muslims with the mediation of UNPROFOR.

 8        Q.   And during the negotiations, did the Muslims from Srebrenica

 9     express certain claims?

10        A.   We all put forward claims, the Muslims, the Serbs, the UNPROFOR,

11     the international observers.  Everyone had their respective conditions to

12     put forward.

13        Q.   Did you know that the Muslim participation in the negotiation was

14     not authorised by the supreme authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

15        A.   No, I didn't know that.  All I can say with surety is that we

16     agreed meetings through UNPROFOR, that I always had authorisation from

17     the Main Staff, the corps command, or any other decision-maker on the

18     Serbian side.  However, whether the Muslims had authorisation either from

19     their Supreme Command or the civilian authorities, I don't know.

20        Q.   I have a few questions on the directive number 7.  You know this

21     is the 8th of March, 1995, directive.

22             Is it true to say that when you were in the Bratunac Brigade, you

23     did not have an opportunity to see the directive back in 1995?

24        A.   I think that's correct.

25        Q.   And all you can say today on the directive would be conclusions

Page 33302

 1     that you infer from documents, testimony, information you learnt after

 2     you were arrested?

 3        A.   I can only confirm, concerning the directive, that I read it

 4     entirely and learned about its content when I received it within the set

 5     of documents from the OTP.  I'm sorry, just one more thing.  Let me be

 6     precise.  I may have seen this directive in the command of the Bratunac

 7     Brigade, but I honestly don't remember seeing it.  However, I don't

 8     discount the possibility that it was stored in the brigade archives.

 9             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown P3177.

10     This is information from the commander of the Bratunac Brigade, dated 4th

11     of July, 1994.

12        Q.   Do you agree that this information predates directive number 7?

13        A.   If I understand your question correctly, I can only say that I

14     accept that this information from the Bratunac Brigade was made before

15     the Main Staff's directive.  Was that your question?

16        Q.   Yes, that was my question.

17        A.   Yes.  Yes.

18        Q.   You spoke at length about this document, and you saw it, didn't

19     you, when you were in the Bratunac Brigade.  This was sent to each and

20     every soldier in the brigade, wasn't it?

21        A.   Yes.  This information was first discussed at the meeting of the

22     Bratunac Brigade command, and then it was distributed to all battalion

23     commanders whose obligation was to study it and to familiarise each and

24     every soldier with it.

25        Q.   And it is certain that there are certain awkward phrasing that

Page 33303

 1     is -- phrases, and that is an understatement in this information.  Did

 2     you ever ask your commander what was the purpose, what was the objective

 3     of this information?

 4        A.   No, I didn't.  I never asked him anything about the information.

 5     That was the information drafted by him.  How he did it, why it was

 6     drafted, why it contains what it contains, I had no input in its

 7     drafting, and I didn't contribute to it in any way.

 8        Q.   On several occasions already you spoke about the part played by

 9     Miroslav Deronjic in the events in and around Srebrenica in July 1995.

10     Let me show you a part that has not yet been introduced in these trial

11     proceedings.  This is P4477.  This is the statement you made to the

12     Republika Srpska commission in 2004.  Page 11 in B/C/S, page 9 in

13     English, please.

14             Right at the beginning of the page you said this:

15             [In English] "The person responsible for the transport of women

16     and children and all people who apply the status of prisoners by their

17     arrival to Potocari (I am referring to the able-bodied men) is the

18     Commissioner for Civilian Affairs, Miroslav Deronjic, who was appointed

19     by the order of Radovan Karadzic personally."

20        A.   What I have received as translation is slightly different than

21     what is written here, but the essence is there.  There are just slight

22     differences in what I heard through my headphones.  The responsible

23     person for transport of women, children, and all people, who by the

24     arrival in Potocari acquired the status of prisoner, in brackets,

25     able-bodied, and I presume it should be men, is civilian affairs

Page 33304

 1     commissioner Miroslav Deronjic appointed by the order of Radovan Karadzic

 2     personally.  The same order stipulates his powers and obligations.

 3             This is that I said, and I still stand by it.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  Let me turn to your

 5     notes.  This is 5D1438.  I would need to see page 6 -- well, page 5 can

 6     be shown first.  These are the notes you made about the statement by

 7     Mr. Dragomir Vasic.

 8             I'm interested in the following page where you wrote about what

 9     Mr. Vasic said about the meeting at the Fontana Hotel.

10             Based on your notes, Vasic confirmed that in this conversation

11     Mr. Deronjic was the one who spoke most and that Mr. Vasic did not take

12     part in it.  He confirmed that Mladic insisted that the people should

13     surrender and should surrender their weapons, and he was interested in

14     the Muslim army.  Deronjic spoke the most regarding civilians and

15     evacuation.

16        A.   Yes, I can see that.

17        Q.   Did you share Dragomir Vasic's opinion on the role played by

18     Mr. Deronjic during these meetings?

19        A.   I said on many occasions in the courtroom today and previously

20     what I thought about the role of Mr. Deronjic and about himself.  I can

21     repeat it if you want me to, but I've said it countless times.

22        Q.   You are right.  I will not insist on that topic any longer.

23     However, I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 5D1389.  This is a

24     document stemming from the security centre, public security centre of

25     Zvornik, signed by Mr. Vasic.

Page 33305

 1             In this document, Mr. Vasic requests fuel, and this is to

 2     reimburse -- or in exchange of the civilian population of Srebrenica, for

 3     the expenses, actually.  So what I would like to know is did you know

 4     that the security centre of Zvornik gave fuel for the evacuation of the

 5     civilian population of Srebrenica and Potocari?  Tell us if you know, of

 6     course.

 7        A.   I don't know who provided the fuel, and I particularly don't know

 8     what they did within the MUP or within the Zvornik security centre.  I

 9     did see this document before though.

10        Q.   On the 22nd of April, page 32977 and 32978, you spoke of the

11     bombing of the civilian column going from Srebrenica to Potocari on the

12     11th of July, 1995.  When you were waiting for your trial, you were able

13     to read the various statements made by the DutchBat members; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes, I did.

16        Q.   I would like to show you Exhibit 5D1438, page 1.  Those are your

17     own notes taken following the statement of Peter Boering.

18             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like the usher to show us

19     the following page, please.  It's at the middle of the page.

20        Q.   For the first time you wrote on this page the following:  You

21     wrote that he did not notice that there was a -- that the fire was open,

22     and in brackets you say he was in the column, and he did not notice it.

23     And in the other statements, they say that the artillery fire was open

24     from the left and right side of the road.

25        A.   Yes.  What is the question for me?

Page 33306

 1        Q.   Is it true to say that all you know regarding the bombing that

 2     would have taken place, all your information comes from the DutchBat

 3     statements?

 4        A.   I never asserted that.  I spoke exactly about the fact that the

 5     civilians were targeted from the positions of the Bratunac Brigade.  I

 6     did not speak of any sort of bombing from either the left or the right.

 7     I referred to the fire from T-1 tank, from the 2nd Infantry Battalion --

 8     or, rather, from the positions which were ahead of the 2nd Infantry

 9     Battalion's position.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  It was the B1 gun, interpreter's correction.

11             As for the bombing coming from the left or the right of the road,

12     that's not something I referred to.  I have information to the effect

13     that shells landed in the immediate vicinity of the UN base.  I don't

14     know anything about that though.  I don't know who targeted that

15     particular area or when.  What I know for a fact is something that I said

16     in my testimony earlier and over the past several days.

17             As for Mr. Boering's statement we can see here, these were notes

18     I made about the statements he gave.  I think that there are several

19     statements, and I don't think that there is any difference in the gist of

20     these statements.  I was looking for the differences that would be

21     essential, the differences between his first and second and third

22     statement, and that's what I wanted to draw the attention of the

23     Prosecution to.  That was the gist of what Mr. Boering stated.

24        Q.   Very well.  On the 21st of April, 2009, you mentioned on page

25     32945 and 32946 that you learned from Dragan Mirkovic that the murders in

Page 33307

 1     Bratunac in the hangar had taken place.

 2             Did Dragan Mirkovic tell you if he himself had gone to the

 3     hangar?  Did he tell you if he saw those bodies himself?

 4        A.   I think that I testified about that, too, and that I talked about

 5     it in answer to your colleague's questions earlier on, but let me tell

 6     you again.  I learned about the events in the hangar from Dragan Mirkovic

 7     who, at a later date following the end of the Srebrenica operation and

 8     the burials and everything else that happened, told me, simply, that he

 9     had personally received orders and that he had been summoned by the

10     authorities - and I'm referring to the president of the municipality,

11     president of the Executive Board, and others who represented the

12     municipality - and that they had asked him carry out the classic

13     "asenacija" or the sanitization of the area around the hangar.  He told

14     me that the individuals were transported away from the hangar by bus

15     somewhere to the general area of Glogova - I don't know about that

16     bit - and that they were not buried in the common grave in Glogova and

17     that the area around hangar had been cleaned.

18             That is the extent of what I heard there Dragan Mirkovic.  His

19     assessment was that there were between 80 and 100 people there.  I don't

20     know myself what the truth is.  I had never seen it.

21        Q.   Sir, I know that you've explained all this to us already, but I

22     would like to know if Dragan Mirkovic told you if he himself went to this

23     hangar.  Did he -- did he tell you that?  Or maybe he didn't tell you

24     anything to that effect.

25        A.   I don't remember that he told me that he had been there himself.

Page 33308

 1     I don't know.  I simply don't know that.  I wouldn't want to speculate.

 2        Q.   On the 22nd of April you mentioned that men were separated in

 3     Potocari.  I would like to show you what you noted on page 10 regarding

 4     your own notes.  It's on page 10, same document.

 5             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness -- could we show,

 6     actually, the bottom page of the document.

 7        Q.   Do you see where it says "Page 30"?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   According to what I can read after the dash, you wrote:

10             "It is not exact according to my own information.  Nobody was

11     separated for any particular reason."

12        A.   Yes, I can see that.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Nobody was separated

14     for no particular reason.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I can see that.  I continued

16     to maintain that in the Vuk Karadzic elementary school, because this is

17     what is being referred to here, I had no knowledge about anyone having

18     been killed in the Vuk Karadzic elementary school, and I had no

19     information to the effect that anyone present in the Vuk Karadzic school

20     was separated.

21             I shared my knowledge with you about the hangar.  As for the Vuk

22     Karadzic school, I don't have any information to the effect that anybody

23     had been separated or killed in that particular building.  I have also

24     testified about this before.

25        Q.   Is it true to say that you've assisted some Muslim families in

Page 33309

 1     Potocari to get on the buses, and these were, let's say, parents of your

 2     students?

 3        A.   It is true that I assisted one family consisting of father,

 4     mother, children, sons, daughters-in-law.  In -- a complete family.

 5        Q.   Is it true to say that you had no intention to do anything bad,

 6     to hurt the Muslims in Potocari?

 7        A.   I personally did not have any intentions of doing anything to

 8     them.

 9        Q.   In those days, in July of 1995 in Potocari and Bratunac, was your

10     behaviour not due to a feeling that you had towards the Muslim

11     population, negative feeling that you may have had towards them?

12        A.   I can state with certainty that I felt no aversion towards the

13     Muslims.  I did not hate the Muslims as a people or as individuals who I

14     used to live with before and during the war.

15             I had a negative attitude towards those persons who had done

16     wrong things.  I felt sorry for members of my people.  I felt sorry for

17     the victims who had fallen among my people, primarily civilians but also

18     soldiers.  I had an aversion towards those whom I was certain that they

19     had taken part in murders and other wrong-doings against my people.

20        Q.   You pled guilty for crimes against humanity and persecution; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   That's right.

23        Q.   Did anybody explain to you before you pled guilty that the

24     discriminatory intention is a mandatory element of this crime?

25        A.   My lawyers tried to explain this to me.  The extent to which I

Page 33310

 1     was able to grasp all of it in the course of that first year is highly

 2     debatable.  My understanding was I pled guilty to persecutions because

 3     this is how I understood it, and I'll explain this to you in a couple of

 4     sentences.

 5             My understanding was that persecutions were something that

 6     definitely did take place in the area, and I'm referring to Bratunac

 7     specifically.  There were persecutions in -- in all the areas where there

 8     was one ethnicity, a majority.  What happened in Bratunac was definitely

 9     persecutions committed by the Serbs.

10             I, as a member of the Bratunac Brigade, who held the position

11     that I had, regardless of the extent of my participation, I am in part

12     responsible for the fact that people were driven out of the area.

13     However, I never accepted that I had played a crucial role in driving the

14     people out, that I had taken part in the organisation of persecutions or

15     that I had, God forbid, killed anyone.  This is something that cannot be

16     imputed to me by anyone.

17             What I pled guilty to was something that I felt I had a part of

18     blame to take upon myself, and I'm referring to persecutions, because I

19     did to a certain extent help further the commission of persecutions

20     through my deeds.  Maybe my understanding was not correct, but that was

21     how I saw it at the time when I decided to plead guilty to this.

22             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have only one

23     question.  May I put that question to the witness?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Does that mean you're finished with your

25     cross-examination or --

Page 33311

 1             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes.  In fact, yes, I'm done, Your

 2     Honour.  I have one question, and then I will be.  It's not terribly

 3     important, if you will, so we can stop now, if you wish.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We'll continue tomorrow just to make sure --

 5             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] In that case I have no further

 6     questions, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse and Mr. Krgovic, how much time will you

 8     require tomorrow?

 9             MR. JOSSE:  Almost certainly no time whatsoever.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Haynes.

12             MR. HAYNES:  I'd hoped to take no more than one session.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  So we can reconvene tomorrow and

14     plans can be concluded, Mr. Registrar, for the transfer of Mr. Nikolic

15     back to where he came from.  Thank you.

16             Have a nice afternoon.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day

19                           of April, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.