Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33830

 1                           Thursday, 2 July 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, good afternoon.

 6             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-05-88-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

11             For the record, all the accused are present.  Prosecution, it's

12     Mr. McCloskey today, on his own.

13             Defence teams I notice the following absences, Ms. Tapuskovic,

14     Mr. Nikolic -- oh, I see, no.  Ms. Tapuskovic is sitting behind.  My

15     apologies to you, Madam.

16             So Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Gosnell, and I think that's

17     about it.

18             Let's start from here.  We have some decisions for you.

19             Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Josse, you have filed a motion seeking

20     protective measures of pseudonym, facial, and voice distortion for the

21     first witness of today; namely, 6DW-02; correct.

22             MR. JOSSE:  That is correct, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you.  And do you take that opposition,

24     Mr. McCloskey?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

Page 33831

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyone else wishes to address the Chamber?  We hear

 2     no, none.  So the Trial Chamber is persuaded that the concerns for the

 3     persons safety of this witness, as explained in the motion of the 1st of

 4     July, justified the protective measures requested, hereby grants the

 5     motion and puts in place the three protective measures requested.

 6             Next -- again, Mr. Krgovic, and Mr. Josse, we note - as at least

 7     from what we have received so far - that you have not asked for an

 8     amendment to the 65 ter witness list to add the five re-opening witnesses

 9     to your 65 ter list.  Do you wish to do it now?

10             MR. JOSSE:  Well, if we need to technically, then, of course, but

11     could I say this:  Two of the witnesses were on the original 65 ter list;

12     namely, the second witness today, Slavko Culic, and the witness who may

13     testify next week, Milorad Zoric.  The other three witnesses, the one

14     whose just been granted protection, plus the other two, were not on the

15     list.  So for those three, we do make that application, please.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Any remarks from Prosecution or

17     other Defence teams?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No objection.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  So this oral motion, which we

20     have just received is granted.

21             Nikolic Defence team, on the 25th of June you filed a motion

22     seeking leave to amend your 65 ter list of adding -- by adding one

23     witness, Zlatan Milosevic.  You filed a corrigendum, then, on the 29th of

24     June.  In the meantime, we have received a notification from the

25     authorities of Republika Srpska in relation to the service of the

Page 33832

 1     subpoena.

 2             Are you aware of this documentation?

 3             Ms. Nikolic.

 4             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We have studied

 5     the report on the subpoena.  If you wish me to elaborate on this, we

 6     could go into private session.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's go into private session for a short

 8     while.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 33833











11 Page 33833 redacted. Private session.















Page 33834

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are ready to go with the first witness.  The

11     second witness, this morning we had served upon us a statement from 2008,

12     and the second witness is a senior officer and had a lot to say about

13     various villages and places and things related to an alibi defence.  So I

14     would like to be able to have tonight to try to review that, to get ready

15     for cross-examination for tomorrow and not be required, if we get that

16     far, to cross-examine that second witness today.  First witness, no

17     problem.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We'll come to that because tomorrow we

19     may have some logistical problems, but, anyway, it's too early to say.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  In any case, as far as tomorrow is concerned, we

22     will be starting at 12.30 and not at 2.15 as previously scheduled.

23     12.30, okay?  And probably ending -- of course, not probably, ending

24     earlier than probably at about 3.00 or just after 3.00.  That's the

25     programme for tomorrow.

Page 33835

 1             I also -- yes, I also forgot to mention that today Judge Stole

 2     couldn't be with us for a very legitimate reason, so we are sitting

 3     pursuant to Rule 15 bis.  Thank you.

 4             We are coming down now with some oral decisions.

 5             On the 26th of June -- first of all, we -- relating to your 25th

 6     June motion, corrected on the 29th of June, Ms. Nikolic - having heard

 7     the Prosecution not objecting - we are granting the motion.

 8             Now, on the 26th of June, Accused Pandurevic filed a confidential

 9     further submission regarding the admission of evidence under Rule 92 bis

10     requesting the Trial Chamber to place Exhibit 7D1192 under seal.

11             Do you object, Mr. McCloskey?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any of the other teams?  Okay.  The motion is also

14     granted.

15             Now, what is going to follow now is an oral consolidated decision

16     on the Prosecution and motions for extension of times, and that includes

17     also other filings and other declarations by other Defence teams on the

18     issue.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  So what follows now is an oral consolidated

21     decision, as I said, on the Prosecution and Gvero motions for extension

22     of time, and that -- and also included are the various declarations made

23     by some of the Defence teams and also the response filed by the Nikolic

24     team.

25             We will also be deciding contextually and orally the Nikolic

Page 33836

 1     expedited motion seeking a variation of the page limit of the final trial

 2     briefs.  We have decided we will not await for any responses on this, we

 3     don't need any.  We are going to decide this issue today.

 4             The Trial Chamber is seised of the Prosecution motion for

 5     extension of time for filing of final briefs and closing arguments which

 6     was filed on the 26th of June, 2009, and the Gvero motion seeking extra

 7     time for the filing of its final brief filed on the 1st of July.

 8             Following the filing of the Prosecution motion, other Defence --

 9     some Defence teams declared in one of the latest sittings that they

10     agreed with the extension asked for by the Prosecution.  We have, since

11     then, also received response from the Nikolic Defence teams that makes

12     its position.

13             In addition, the Trial Chamber is also seised of an expedited

14     motion by the accused Nikolic filed on the 1st of July in which he seeks

15     a variation of the page limit of his final trial brief; more precisely,

16     Nikolic is requesting a page limit of a minimum of 375 pages, but not

17     more than 400 pages.

18             I said the Trial Chamber notes that the Pandurevic response to

19     the Prosecution motion, filed on the 29th of June, in which they did not

20     take a position as to the request ad hoc, and the Borovcanin and

21     Nikolic's response to it filed on the 30th of June.  It also -- we have

22     also noted Popovic's, Beara's, and Miletic's joint submission made in

23     court on the 30th of June, as stated earlier.

24             This is our decision:  All of the parties have been put on notice

25     for over three months, more precisely, since the 27th of March, 2009, of

Page 33837

 1     the timing fixed for the filing of the final briefs.  The Trial Chamber

 2     has made it clear of the need to comply with the established dead-line.

 3     Only one limited extension has been granted; namely, the one on the 27th

 4     of May because of changed circumstances, in particular the admission of

 5     the re-opening -- albeit -- re-opening evidence, albeit that evidence was

 6     of a very limited nature.  The Trial Chamber does not consider that any

 7     of the circumstances that have been raised by either the Prosecution or

 8     the Gvero Defence team justify - and others for that matter who have

 9     supported this position - justify any substantial extension and certainly

10     nothing to support the lengthy delay requested particularly by the

11     Prosecution.

12             However, considering that the parties, particularly the

13     Prosecution and Accused Gvero and Popovic, have been engaged in the

14     preparation for witnesses heard or soon to be heard, the Trial Chamber is

15     prepared, on an exceptional basis, to grant a very limited extension of

16     time.

17             With regard to the Nikolic expedited motion, the Trial Chamber

18     finds that a variation of the page limit in the amount of 100 extra pages

19     at this late stage is not warranted at all.  No matter the complexity of

20     the case, it is incumbent on counsel - and that applies across the board,

21     all counsel - to focus their arguments so as to comply with the page

22     limitations set by the Trial Chamber.

23             Taking into account the submissions of counsel for Mr. Nikolic,

24     however, and the lack of opposition to the motion - at least that's how

25     we understand it - the Trial Chamber will grant a narrow extension of the

Page 33838

 1     page limit.

 2             So, pursuant to Rules 54 and 86 of the Rules of Procedure and

 3     Evidence, the Trial Chamber, ex gratia orders that the parties shall file

 4     their final briefs by no later than Thursday, 30 July 2009.  So you have

 5     an extension of 10 days.

 6             The Trial Chamber shall hear closing arguments on -- from

 7     Wednesday, the 2nd September 2009 instead of the previously-set -- date

 8     set of the 31st of August.  The final trial brief of Accused

 9     Drago Nikolic shall not exceed 350 pages.

10             Lastly, the order of the 27th of March, 2009, remains unchanged

11     in all other respects.

12             Having said that, I think we can start with the witness.

13             Yes, Mr. Josse.

14             MR. JOSSE:  Can I go and check with our case manager.  I know

15     she's been having a great deal of difficulty sorting out the video, which

16     is the only exhibit we need for the witness.  Let me go and speak to her

17     and report back to Your Honours, if I may.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Before the witness comes in, and maybe we will need

21     to go for a very short while in private session, I wish to explain to the

22     public in the gallery why we have drawn down the curtains.  Basically,

23     because we have decided to grant this witness, who will be starting in a

24     few minutes' time, some protective measures, and because of one of them

25     in particular, face distortion, we are trying to hide his identity, we

Page 33839

 1     had to draw down the curtains so that you don't see.  You will not be

 2     able to see him directly when he's testifying, but the curtains will be

 3     drawn up again and you will be able to follow the proceedings in full

 4     except when we go in private session.

 5             Yes, please, go ahead.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think you can draw up the curtains again.

 8             Good afternoon to you, sir.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just before I start, I want to make clear to you

11     that, at the moment, no one can see you from outside this courtroom, just

12     to put your mind at rest.  The reason for that is that you asked that

13     some protective measures be put in place for you, to protect your

14     identity.  We have agreed to that, and so you will not be referred to by

15     your name, and neither your face will be seen or your voice heard while

16     you are testifying.  When necessary, we will also go into private session

17     to make sure that your identity is protected.

18             Now, you are going to start giving evidence as a witness produced

19     by the Defence team for General Gvero.  Before you do so, our Rules

20     require that you make a solemn declaration that in the course of your

21     testimony you will speak the truth and the whole truth.  Madam Usher

22     standing next to you is going to hand you the text.  Please read it out

23     allowed and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 33840

 1                           WITNESS:  WITNESS 6DW-02

 2                           [Witness answered though interpreter]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself

 4     comfortable.

 5             Mr. Josse.

 6             MR. JOSSE:  I am not going to be examining the witness, but

 7     perhaps if I could explain to Your Honours and also to Mr. Krgovic at the

 8     same time, Ms. Stewart has come to the rescue, and she is going to be

 9     able to play the video at the relevant time.  We've given her the times

10     that we require, so I'm very grateful to her.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you Ms. Stewart.  And thank you

12     Mr. Josse.  Mr. Krgovic will be putting some questions to you, and then I

13     suppose there will be some kind of cross-examination.  Not some kind,

14     there will be cross-examination.

15             Yes, also since there is voice distortion, please make sure that

16     your microphones will be switched off when the witness is speaking.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sorry, Mr. Krgovic, please proceed.  I am trying to

19     make the conditions in the courtroom somewhat more bearable because it's

20     too warm in here.  Last time when we opened that door over there, and we

21     opened this one and that one we could survive a little bit.

22             I mean, the problem, started at 7.00 this morning and they seem

23     to continue.

24             Mr. Krgovic, Mr. McCloskey, and the rest, there seems to be a

25     minor technical problem with the voice distortion equipment.  The

Page 33841

 1     gentleman's voice, the witness's voice, can be distorted but not to the

 2     extent that it usually is, and I want to ensure that the level of

 3     distortion does not allow for any possible recognition of his voice,

 4     since it is not complete at the moment.  I know that it is -- the matter

 5     is being attended to.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  In the meantime I'm told that if we can ask the

 8     witness to say something, 1-2 -3 -- or the Usher, Usher, if you could say

 9     1-2-3, please.

10             THE USHER:  1-2-3.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  It's work fine now.  It's working fine so we

12     can proceed.

13             Mr. Krgovic.

14                           Examination by Mr. Krgovic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] My name is Dragan Krgovic.  On behalf of the

16     Defence of General Gvero, I am going to ask you questions before this

17     Court.

18             Please take a look at the paper in front of you and confirm that

19     it contains your name and surname.

20        A.   Good afternoon, this is my name and surname.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we say it?

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May the other Defence teams take a

23     look.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Prosecution and the other Defence teams,

25     please.  Okay.  Let's start.

Page 33842

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  Can we go into private session for a moment.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sure, let's go into private session for a short

 3     while.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Please tell us whether you did your national service either in

19     the JNA or in the VRS and when, if so?

20        A.   I was doing my national service in the Army of Republika Srpska

21     from the 10th of October, 1994, to the 10th of May, 1996.

22        Q.   When unit did you serve your service in?

23        A.   The 65th Protected Motored Regiment of the Main Staff.

24        Q.   Are you related to General Gvero?

25        A.   No.

Page 33843

 1        Q.   Where was the 65th Protective Regiment quartered while you were

 2     doing your national service or, to be more specific, your unit?

 3        A.   My unit was located at Han Pijesak.

 4        Q.   Do you know General Gvero?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Had you known him before the war?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Which duties did you perform from the end of June 1995 and in

 9     July and August of the same year?

10        A.   I was General Gvero's escort.

11        Q.   For which period, roughly, approximately?

12        A.   From May 1995 to the beginning of May 1996.

13        Q.   During that period, May, June, July 1995, was there anybody else

14     escorting General Gvero apart from you?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   What were your duties as an escort?

17        A.   My duties were to care for general, to mind his security and

18     personal safety.  I was available 24/7.

19        Q.   Did you provide security when he would travel outside his place

20     of residence or only at that place?

21        A.   When he travelled out of it, yes.

22        Q.   Did you, at the end of June [as interpreted] 1995, go to an area

23     close to the Zepa enclave together with General Gvero?

24        A.   Yes, once we went to the check-point at the entrance to the Zepa

25     enclave.

Page 33844

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  Just one small correction for the transcript, I

 2     said "July" instead of "June."

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Please, could you tell us what was the time of day when you set

 6     out?

 7        A.   Around midday, around 12.00, around noon.

 8        Q.   Who was with you?

 9        A.   The driver.  He drove.  Nobody else.

10        Q.   Which route did you take?

11        A.   We departed Han Pijesak to Rogatica, and then towards the

12     UNPROFOR's check-point towards Zepa.

13        Q.   Did General Gvero tell you where you were going and what was the

14     purpose of your trip?

15        A.   Briefly, just since he could not contact General Mladic, we were

16     supposed to be given an approval to travel to Kladanj [as interpreted],

17     because we were supposed to go to Kladanj, and he hadn't obtained an

18     approval to go there.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] One correction for the transcript:

20     The witness stated "Krajina" and not "Kladanj," as stated in the

21     transcript.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I was asking myself what was he going to Kladanj

23     for.

24             Okay, thank you for that, Mr. Krgovic.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 33845

 1        Q.   Would, usually, General Gvero tell you about the destination of

 2     your travels, or was this an exception?

 3        A.   Usually, no.  He just briefly mentioned that we were supposed to

 4     go to Krajina.

 5        Q.   Did you discuss with him before the trip and during the trip

 6     about the events at Krajina?

 7        A.   Well, he was very much worried about the developments in Krajina,

 8     some summits fell into the enemy's hands, and he was - as I was - worried

 9     about those developments.

10        Q.   Were any of your relatives in the army during that time?

11        A.   Yes, my father, my uncle, they were positioned in the western

12     front, in the so-called Krajina front.  I was very much worried about my

13     family because nobody was at home when those developments unfolded, so

14     I'd expected that we would be going in the direction of Krajina.

15        Q.   How long did the trip take from Han Pijesak to the check-point?

16     What were the conditions, and what was the type of trip?

17        A.   It took us one hour.  It was a dirt road that we took.

18        Q.   Did you stop anywhere along the route?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   From Rogatica to the check-point, were there any VRS check-points

21     at that time?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Did you see any UNPROFOR officers, and did General Gvero talk to

24     such an UNPROFOR officer en route from Rogatica to the check-point?

25        A.   We neither found or encountered anybody along that road.  There

Page 33846

 1     were no UNPROFOR officers until we reached the UNPROFOR check-point where

 2     there were UN soldiers there.

 3        Q.   Did you see General Smith en route to the check-point?

 4        A.   No, no.

 5        Q.   Did you see him at the check-point when you arrived there?

 6        A.   No, no.

 7        Q.   Do you know who General Smith is?  Have you ever seen him?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   When you reached the check-point, who did you find there from

10     among those whom you knew?

11        A.   When we got there, apart from the driver, General Mladic was

12     there as well, General Krstic, two commanders from the Zvornik Brigade, a

13     cameraman, a helicopter pilot, several soldiers - I don't know from which

14     unit - and UNPROFOR soldiers as well.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Can we now play it --

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 33847

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's proceed.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We can continue playing the video,

18     please.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] From 13.20 to 13.27, please.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 33848

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             MR. KRGOVIC:  No, Your Honour.  That's all.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Sir, did you have occasion to hear this conversation that we saw

13     in the video and parts that we haven't seen?

14        A.   Partially I was -- I did have the opportunity to hear it.

15        Q.   We saw here this video and part of the conversation.  Was your

16     entire stay there filmed or are there parts that were not filmed?

17        A.   There are parts that were not filmed.

18        Q.   How long did you stay there, in this field for?

19        A.   Two to three hours, not long.  Two to three hours, not long.

20        Q.   Counting the trip -- the travelling time or not?

21        A.   Yes, including the travelling time.

22        Q.   Was anything else discussed except what we saw on the video?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, we can't hear the witness.  Could he

24     approach the microphone.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Witness, the interpreters couldn't hear what you

Page 33849

 1     said.  If you could speak nearer to the microphone, please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, is that all right?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, thank you.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What part didn't they hear?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The question was --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  They can't tell you now.  If they didn't hear it,

 9     they can't tell you what they didn't hear.

10             So I think you repeat the question, Mr. Krgovic, and he will

11     answer.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The question was:  Was anything else discussed except what is

14     seen on the video?

15        A.   There was discussion about a train [as interpreted] that we were

16     to take over, and he discussed this with General Krstic, General Gvero

17     discussed it.  The atmosphere was relaxed, and I don't know.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] A small correction:  The witness

19     said "a vehicle," not "a train."

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you for that.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   What was General Mladic doing?

23        A.   General Mladic was talking to UNPROFOR and their officer.  He was

24     assigning the people to conduct the talks.  He was --

25        Q.   Did he get into a bus?

Page 33850

 1        A.   Yes, after the bus arrived, then he said that we move away.  He

 2     got into a bus.  What exactly he said, I don't know.  He introduced

 3     himself and things like that, and Mr. Gvero waited.  He asked for

 4     permission to go to Krajina.  However, Mladic told him to wait a little

 5     because he had to talk to a gentleman from the Zvornik Brigade.  He gave

 6     them certain assignments.  We waited until he finished with the mounting

 7     of the bus, one by one, then with Mr. Gvero he had a short conversation,

 8     and after that we left.

 9        Q.   Where did you go after that?

10        A.   We immediately returned to Han Pijesak.  We took our things

11     because he told us, Boys, we are going into the field.  We packed our

12     things and we headed for Krajina.  We stopped at Vlasenica because we

13     changed vehicles.  We were using a passenger vehicle, and in Vlasenica,

14     we took a military [as interpreted] vehicle and then we set off for

15     Krajina.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] A small correction again:  The

17     vehicle is an off-road vehicle, not a military vehicle.

18        Q.   On your way back from the field to Han Pijesak, did you stop

19     anywhere?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Did you meet any officers on that occasion?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   How long did your journey from Han Pijesak to Krajina take?

24        A.   Under the conditions at the time, it took about six, seven, or

25     eight hours.

Page 33851

 1        Q.   And where did you sleep?

 2        A.   That same day, we reached Banja Luka late at night, and then we

 3     were put up in Banja Luka in the army club.  We arrived late in the

 4     evening, and then the next day we went on a tour of Krajina; actually,

 5     the command posts in Krajina.

 6        Q.   How long did you stay in Krajina for on that occasion?

 7        A.   That time we stayed for about 15 to 20 days.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  I am

 9     just checking the transcript.

10             Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further questions for this

11     witness.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  I you thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

13             Mr. McCloskey -- or, rather, sorry.  I don't think any of the

14     Defence teams wish to cross-examine this witness.  I am correct in that.

15             Mr. McCloskey, do you have any questions for him?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  How long?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Hopefully not more than an hour.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  That much?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Less than that.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

22        Q.   Witness, good afternoon.  My name is Peter McCloskey, and I

23     represent the Prosecution.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   What did General Gvero mean when he told the Ukrainian officer

Page 33852

 1     he's lucky he wasn't down there with the Turks; down where?

 2        A.   I don't know what he meant "down there."  I didn't even hear

 3     that.  It was a conversation we had -- he had with the UNPROFOR officer.

 4        Q.   So there were conversations between General Gvero and officers

 5     that you didn't hear?

 6        A.   I said that I partially heard the conversations.  I wasn't right

 7     there behind him.  Maybe five or six metres away.  My duty wasn't to

 8     listen in to the conversations they were having.

 9        Q.   And I understand that.  And so, of course, there is, I'm sure,

10     potentially quite a bit of information passed between General Gvero and

11     various officers that you didn't hear?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   All right.  And can you tell me, do you remember the days when

14     Srebrenica fell?  This was, as you now know, on this video I think if you

15     had a chance to look at it very carefully, was July 26th.  We know that

16     Srebrenica fell, the town, on the 11th, and that the VRS went into

17     Potocari on the 12th.  And on the 13th of July, there were many Muslims

18     surrendering along the road from Nova Kasaba to Konjevic Polje to

19     Kravica.  So does that help refresh your recollection about those days?

20        A.   I don't remember the exact day when Srebrenica fell.  You see, we

21     were up there.  We didn't have access to any media or anything like that.

22     We were doing our work as soldiers.  My assignment was what it was.

23        Q.   Well, you recall when General Gvero went to the Srebrenica

24     forward command post, it's called Pribicevac, not far away from a place

25     called Zeleni Jadar, not far away from Bratunac, and overlooking the area

Page 33853

 1     of Srebrenica.  He went there while the battle was raging.

 2        A.   Sir, as far as I know, General Gvero never went to that part, as

 3     far as I know.  It's only once that we went as far as the UNPROFOR, their

 4     check-point near Zepa and not Srebrenica.

 5        Q.   Sir, on July 9th, people in this courtroom have testified,

 6     General Gvero and, in fact, two escorts, I believe it was a military

 7     officer from the Zvornik Brigade named Jevdjevic, said Gvero showed up

 8     with it two escorts, army escorts, went out and spoke to General Krstic

 9     at the forward command post in Pribicevac.  Surely you -- if you can

10     remember anything about Zepa, you can remember Srebrenica?

11        A.   I do not remember.  I don't remember that we went there at all.

12     We didn't go there.

13        Q.   Now who were the other escorts that could have been with

14     General Gvero on July 9th?

15        A.   No, sir.  If the General went to Belgrade, I didn't go with him.

16     Now, if he may have dropped by somewhere en route, I don't know, on his

17     way to Belgrade.

18        Q.   So would have been with him if he was coming back from Belgrade?

19        A.   I don't know.  I really don't know.

20        Q.   And did you go -- you know that there is a 65th Protection

21     Regiment MP battalion stationed at Nova Kasaba; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And were you there after Srebrenica?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   And was General Gvero there?

Page 33854

 1        A.   Not as far as I know.

 2        Q.   But then he could have been in Srebrenica, and you didn't know

 3     that either, I take it; right?

 4        A.   No, sir.  As far as I said, as far as I know, I spent a lot of

 5     time with him.  I was his escort, but we didn't go to Srebrenica or

 6     anywhere near it.

 7        Q.   Now, when did you first start thinking back about Zepa to get

 8     ready to come testify?

 9        A.   The first time they contacted me, that is General Gvero's

10     Defence, they asked me whether I remembered going to that region, and I

11     said that, as far as I remember, we went there only once and that was the

12     UNPROFOR check-point.

13        Q.   Did they tell you about the video before they asked you

14     questions?

15        A.   No.  Later on, to remind me of the events, they showed me the

16     video.

17        Q.   So when did they first contact you, roughly?

18        A.   At the end of May, this year.

19        Q.   And did you give them information prior to them showing you the

20     video?

21        A.   Yes, they asked me whether I remembered things in connection with

22     our going there, things like that.

23        Q.   That's what they asked you.  What did you tell them having

24     thought back 13-some-odd years.

25        A.   Well, you see, sir, as I said, the situation was critical in

Page 33855

 1     Krajina at the time, and we didn't stay there long.  And because we

 2     changed vehicles, we had a passenger vehicle and then we got this

 3     off-road vehicle that same day, and we reached Krajina.  So I had a

 4     chance to see my family after some time.  And maybe something else that

 5     makes me remember this is that a couple of days after our arrival there,

 6     a short while later, that off-road vehicle crashed.  So these are certain

 7     events that stick in my mind?

 8        Q.   Tell us about the orders you heard Mladic give the guys from

 9     Zvornik?

10        A.   Well, mostly he just said that they should go, to get ready to go

11     to Krajina.  That was my understanding of what he said.

12        Q.   And "he" meaning Mladic; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, yes, I mean General Mladic.

14        Q.   And what officers was he speaking to?

15        A.   With the commander of the Zvornik Brigade and Vinko and --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, we didn't hear that.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   We got Vinko, but we didn't get the next name.

19        A.   I don't know now exactly what his name was.

20        Q.   And did Mladic give those orders -- or those assignments to Vinko

21     and the other guy before the buses arrived or afterward?

22        A.   I think before.

23        Q.   And what was the situation around Zepa when you were there?

24        A.   I don't know what you mean.  In what way?

25        Q.   Well, sir, you've come here to testify about your knowledge.  Did

Page 33856

 1     you know anything about what was going on in or around Zepa when you were

 2     there?

 3        A.   During our stay there, I was able to conclude that the population

 4     was moving out, the town, as such, was normal, quite normal.  The

 5     population was leaving the town.

 6        Q.   What was normal about that?

 7        A.   I mean, the situation was normal, relaxed.  The population seemed

 8     okay, they seemed to be satisfied with their departure.  I couldn't

 9     notice anyone being tense or anxious or crying or anything like that as

10     they got on the buses.

11        Q.   No fear at all?

12        A.   Not that I could notice any fear.

13        Q.   You were there when General Mladic was talking to Hamdija Torlak,

14     weren't you?

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23        Q.   Let me remind you of something General Mladic said to Mr. Torlak

24     as he was sitting there after these people had left.  He said:  "They

25     killed our people.  You have to understand that, but I'm not going to

Page 33857

 1     kill you.  I'm going to kill them, mother fuckers."

 2             And then he says:  "Don't be afraid."

 3             Mr. Torlak was scared to death, wasn't he?

 4        A.   No, sir.  I didn't hear their conversation.  I was probably stood

 5     a distance away when I was told to go away, so I did not hear their

 6     conversation.  He drank coffee.  He didn't seem afraid.  He drank coffee

 7     with General Mladic.

 8        Q.   Were you in the Glamoc area a few days later when the Serbian

 9     population had to pack up and flee for their lives?

10        A.   Yes, when we arrived to Banja Luka -- Banja Luka we toured all

11     the critical areas there, Mrkonjic, Jajce, Glamoc, Drvar.

12        Q.   Well, those Serb civilians that had to leave their towns and

13     villages, they were scared to death, too, weren't they -- or they were

14     scared to death when they left, weren't they?

15        A.   Sir, whether they were -- well, they were sad most probably.

16        Q.   Now, when you were in Zepa, I take it you didn't know that the

17     Serb forces in Zepa were still putting up fierce resistance, that Serb

18     soldiers were still dying in those woods in the battle with the Muslim

19     army and that the fight was still going, even as the Muslim civilian were

20     being shipped out.  You didn't know anything about that, huh?

21        A.   No, we weren't in Zepa.  We were at the UNPROFOR check-point

22     there.  We did not hear -- see Zepa, neither could we hear any combat.

23     Those two or three hours that we were there, there was no fighting that

24     we could hear.

25        Q.   And you didn't hear any of the officers, any of those VRS

Page 33858

 1     officers speaking of any of the fighting that was going on in Zepa on the

 2     days preceding that?  You didn't hear anything about that?

 3        A.   No.  What was conducted there was everyday normal conversation.

 4     They did not talk about Zepa.  General Gvero discussed things, the

 5     vehicle, with General Krstic, but they did not mention the fighting

 6     there, neither did I hear any conversation about any fighting.

 7        Q.   And the casualties coming out of the Krajina at the time.  I've

 8     looked at those reports, sometimes 20, 30 Serbs a day were being killed

 9     in that fighting.  That was where you were about to go and General Gvero

10     was about to go.  Surely, you would have heard the officers discussing

11     that front where you were about to go and be put in harms way and hear

12     about that?

13        A.   General Gvero was not on this footage.  General Mladic was

14     entering the buses.  General Gvero was 20, 30 metres away from the

15     action, from the buses.  Then there were APCs belonging to UNPROFOR.

16     General Gvero was in the shade waiting for General Mladic to finish his

17     business.  General Gvero requested from General Mladic a vehicle [as

18     interpreted] so that he could depart for Krajina, and he was also

19     concerned about the situation there at the time.  He asked General Mladic

20     to be permitted to depart for Krajina.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm sorry, but my learned --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.  Microphone.

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  Sorry, the witness said "permission" instead of

24     "vehicle."  "Dozvola a ne vozilo."

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, okay thank you.

Page 33859

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Yes, I'm sure General Gvero was very interested as were all the

 3     VRS, including yourself, about what was going on in the Krajina.  But you

 4     know that General Gvero was just standing right there or sitting right

 5     there in the shade when all those, we counted 24 buses, full of Muslims

 6     went by.  Gvero was right there, huh?

 7        A.   Well, we just waited for Mladic to finish his business and to

 8     permit Milan to depart, and then they conversed for a couple of minutes.

 9        Q.   But to be clear, General Gvero, whom you've called Milan, was

10     there at this check-point while this -- some 24 buses containing Muslims

11     went by.

12        A.   They were.  I don't know how many passed, but he had to wait to

13     obtain permission from General Mladic to depart for Krajina.

14        Q.   Sir, it's still not clear in the record.  So General -- was

15     General Gvero there when the buses were going by?

16        A.   General Gvero, as I said, waited for Mladic to finish to be given

17     permission to leave.

18        Q.   Sir, was General Gvero right there by the road, right by where

19     the buses went by as they drove by him?

20        A.   No.  He was not next to the road.  He was next to UNPROFOR APCs.

21     He was not standing next to the road.  General Mladic boarded the buses.

22        Q.   I didn't ask you if General Gvero boarded the buses.  We all saw

23     General Mladic order his officers to stand in a row and we saw them

24     standing in a row.  You saw that; right?

25        A.   Yes, I was behind the buses on the other side.

Page 33860

 1        Q.   Right.  And then the buses drove by those officers who were

 2     standing in a row?

 3        A.   No.  Mladic was on one side, I was on the other side.  You saw on

 4     the footage that I was told to move over there.  And Milan,

 5     General Gvero, walked away from that place.  He sat down in shade waiting

 6     for Mladic to be finished so that he could obtain from Mladic permission

 7     to go to Krajina.

 8        Q.   We saw the people line up when the judge gave -- sorry, the

 9     General gave the order; didn't you?

10        A.   Yes, yes.  For a brief period of time we went away from

11     General Mladic immediately.  I went to the left, towards the APCs.  They

12     were on the right-hand side.

13        Q.   And then the buses came to where you were?

14        A.   Well, the buses were -- just passed, passed by.  They would come

15     and pass by.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

18             No re-examination, I suppose, Mr. Krgovic?

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  We will take some time for re-examination.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  I didn't quite --

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  Very briefly.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, okay.  Go ahead.  We have five minutes before

23     the break.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, the Prosecutor asked you whether you went

Page 33861

 1     with General Gvero to Pribicevac, and you answered, When general would go

 2     to Belgrade you would not accompany him.

 3             Do you recall your answer?

 4        A.   Yes, because I do not really recall going to Serbia.  We did not,

 5     and if General Gvero would go to Belgrade, I would not be accompanying

 6     him, and that's how I remember it.

 7        Q.   Where did you sleep [Realtime transcript read in error "leave"]?

 8        A.   At Han Pijesak, in the motel there, where the logistics was

 9     located.  We had a room for escorts and drivers in the basement, and this

10     is where we slept.

11        Q.   I asked where the witness resided and not when he departed.  The

12     translation was okay, but the transcript seems to be problematic.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Perhaps you would like to put the question

14     again.  If you're not happy with the transcript, I think we need to

15     correct it.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, the witness answered, so ...

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead, then.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The Prosecutor also asked you where was Mr. Gvero when the buses

20     passed by.  What was, if you recall, General Gvero doing when the buses

21     passed by?

22        A.   Well, as I said, he was sitting in the shade, and he even spoke

23     to a Ukrainian man, one member of the UNPROFOR who was there.

24        Q.   Is -- was there a woman?

25        A.   The interpreter was there as well, and he spent quite a lot of

Page 33862

 1     time discussing things with her.  He'd like to talk to interpreters,

 2     joking and chatting away.

 3        Q.   Did General Gvero issue any orders, take part in military terms

 4     in this operation?

 5        A.   No, not then and not before that, not ever.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Your Honour, this is --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You know --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic, if you could conclude, please.

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  Thank you, I have no further questions.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

12             All right.  Sir, we have come to the end of your ...

13             I wish to thank you for having come over to give testimony at

14     such short notice.  On behalf of everyone here, I also wish you a safe

15     journey back home.

16             Now, we will have --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- a break, and it will be of 30 minutes' duration.

19             No, I don't accept -- I don't think you are tendering the parts

20     from [indiscernible] because they are already in, and Mr. Krgovic

21     referred to the sections.

22             MR. JOSSE:  Absolutely, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

Page 33863

 1                           --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 3             Mr. Josse.

 4             MR. JOSSE:  Well, as sadly as is so often the case, Your Honours,

 5     I was wrong immediately before the break when I said there was no

 6     document.  There is one.  It's a pseudonym sheet.  It's --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, okay.  But I took that for granted, and that

 8     is under seal.  Thank you.

 9             Next witness, please.  This is Slavko Culic, isn't he?

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, Mr. Culic.  Welcome to this

12     Tribunal.  You are about to start giving evidence.  Before you do so, you

13     need to make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth.

14     Text is being handed to you now.  Please read out aloud and that will be

15     your solemn undertaking with us.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I start?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO CULIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself

23     comfortable.  Take a seat.  Mr. Krgovic will be asking you some

24     questions, and Mr. McCloskey later on, for the Prosecution, will

25     cross-examine you.

Page 33864

 1             Mr. Krgovic.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Krgovic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Culic, we've met already, but for the record

 4     I would like to introduce myself again, Dragan Krgovic defending

 5     General Gvero.

 6             Since we are both speaking the same language, please, after

 7     hearing my question, pause a bit before you answer so that we do not

 8     overlap and so that other participants who do not share our language

 9     could follow the proceedings.

10        A.   Yes, well, okay.

11        Q.   Please state your full name and surname?

12        A.   Slavko Culic.

13        Q.   Where and when were you born?

14        A.   I was born in the village of Glavice, the Glamoc municipality,

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the 5th of October, 1958.

16        Q.   What qualifications do you have?

17        A.   I graduated from the military academy of the land forces,

18     infantry, in Belgrade.

19        Q.   Could you please give us an overview of your career in the

20     military up until the outbreak of war.

21        A.   Up to the outbreak of war in 1991, I served in several garrisons

22     of the former JNA.  I carried out the duties from platoon commander up to

23     battalion commander.

24        Q.   Where were you when the war broke out?

25        A.   I was at the Pula garrison when the war broke out.

Page 33865

 1        Q.   When did you arrive to Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 2        A.   After the JNA units were dislocated, I was transferred, together

 3     with my unit, from the Pula Garrison to the Niksic Garrison in 1991.

 4     Pursuant to an order of my superior officer, dated 16th of May, 1992, I

 5     was transferred from the Niksic Garrison to the Banja Luka Garrison.

 6     Upon arrival to Banja Luka, I was transferred to the Mrkonjic Grad

 7     Garrison where I was appointed to a post.

 8        Q.   Which post did you occupy in July 1995, and where?

 9        A.   In July 1995, I was commander of the 1st Sipovo Light Infantry

10     Brigade, from that date on towards the -- up until the end of the war.

11        Q.   What -- which rank did you hold at the time?

12        A.   Captain first class.

13        Q.   What was the situation like in the area of defence of your

14     brigade, along that section of the front in July 1995?

15        A.   In the area of responsibility of my brigade, Muslim Croatian

16     units, or units of Muslim Croatian forces, were executing an offensive in

17     June and in July, and they continued until September 1995.  And I'm

18     duty-bound to remark that in July, the Muslim Croatian offensive was

19     unfolding along two axes:  The first one was from Travnik to Komar, and

20     the other axis was from Bugojno to Gornji Vakuf.  Some five Muslim and

21     Croatian brigades took part in the offensive, Croatian meaning Croatian

22     Defence Council or HVO.

23        Q.   Did you know General Gvero?

24        A.   I met General Gvero in 1978.  I was in Belgrade, at the time,

25     attending a military academy and went for practical exercises with

Page 33866

 1     students of the military gymnasium or grammar school.  This is when I met

 2     him for the first time.

 3             Later on, I got to know him better during the carrying out of

 4     combat operations in Bosnia-Herzegovina; to wit, in the territory of

 5     Bosnian Krajina.

 6        Q.   In July 1995, did you see General Gvero in the area of

 7     responsibility of your brigade?

 8        A.   On the 27th of July, 1995, both at the basic and the forward

 9     command posts of mine, General Gvero visited both, and with General Gvero

10     the political organ, Klark-Dulic-Ostoja [phoen], of the brigade was

11     accompanying General Gvero.

12        Q.   How can you be sure that it was on the 27th of July, 1995?

13        A.   This date stuck in my mind for two reasons:  The first one being

14     that on the 27th of July used to be the -- the day of uprising of the

15     peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina; and the second reason being that on that

16     day and the following day, Croatian army forces occupied Glamoc, and

17     Glamoc is my hometown.  And for those reasons I remembered that day.

18        Q.   The day of the uprising of the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

19     the arrival of General Gvero, how do you make the connection between the

20     two?

21        A.   I jocularly asked the General, has he come congratulate us on the

22     national holiday, and we all laughed at the joke.  And the other reason

23     why I remember that day was the fall of Glamoc and the settlements around

24     Glamoc.

25        Q.   Do you have any relatives in Glamoc?

Page 33867

 1        A.   Yes, all my relatives were there.

 2        Q.   Where exactly was your command post in July 1995 when

 3     General Gvero visited?

 4        A.   My basic command post -- post was in the bauxite mines at Jajce

 5     [Realtime transcript read in error "Kravica"].  And the forward command

 6     post was in the village of Obrtci [phoen], close to Gornji Vakuf.

 7        Q.   What was General Gvero's business, and what was the purpose of

 8     your visit, what did you discuss then?

 9        A.   General Gvero, as on previous occasions when he had visited my

10     unit, was interested about the situation in the unit.  He was interested

11     in both the officers and the troops, and he wanted to hear about the

12     problems that the unit was facing, the members of my brigades were

13     facing; first and foremost being interested in information activities,

14     the level of combat morale, issues to be resolved with the civilian

15     authorities, and other issues important for the unit or of interest to

16     the unit.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] One correction in the transcript:

18        Q.   When you said that your basic command post, you said bauxite

19     mines.  It says here "Kravica" instead of "Jajce."  Did you say Kravica

20     or Jajce?

21        A.   Jajce.

22        Q.   Please, could you repeat the name of the town?

23        A.   The basic command post of the brigade, my brigade, was at Jajce,

24     J-a-j-c-e, in the town of Jajce.  In the premises of the Boksit Mine

25     Company.

Page 33868

 1        Q.   Was General Gvero specifically interested in the situation in the

 2     area of responsibility of your brigade?

 3        A.   You see, as on many other occasions, General Gvero wanted to know

 4     about the situation for the simple reason that he hailed from that area.

 5     And that was important for the troops and the officers who hailed from

 6     that same area.  His very arrival had a positive impact on morale and

 7     combat readiness of the units, not just my unit but all the units who

 8     were in the area of responsibility of the 30th Division.

 9        Q.   How will did General Gvero stay with you?

10        A.   Talking to me and my officers who happened to be there at the

11     command post, General Gvero stayed for about one hour.

12        Q.   Did you see him again during those days?

13        A.   Yes, I saw him again two or three days later in Mrkonjic Grad

14     where the question of refugees was being addressed, refugees from the

15     town that had fallen captive to the enemy.

16        Q.   Did General Gvero tell you about the situation in other parts of

17     the front during those two encounters that you had?

18        A.   No.  He just specifically mentioned the situation in the units

19     and the significance of defending those areas.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  I have no further questions for you.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any of the Defence teams?  I suppose none.

22             Mr. McCloskey, we are, of course, aware of your previous request.

23     Are you in a position at least to start today?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  That was relatively short.

25     Maybe I can just finish today.

Page 33869

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And though I would like, if there are any witness

 3     statements for any other witnesses, it would be nice to get them before

 4     the morning of.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic, or Mr. Josse.

 6             MR. JOSSE:  Well, there are none for the two witnesses tomorrow.

 7     There are no witness statements in existence for those two witnesses.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  And tomorrow we are hearing which ones?

 9             MR. JOSSE:  We are hearing -- could you just give me a moment to

10     look at my lists.  One is called Jovanovic.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

12             MR. JOSSE:  And the other is Zoranovic.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Proofing notes.  There is a witness scheduled

15     after them.

16             MR. JOSSE:  The witness after them, I will be frank with the

17     Court, there is a statement in existence for him.  We have not yet

18     decided whether we are going to call that witness who, as we have already

19     said can't be here until Monday.  I understand the Court's not sitting on

20     Tuesday, which means he wouldn't be able to give evidence until

21     Wednesday.  So we need to make a decision, primarily, for strategic

22     reasons but also for logistical reasons as well, and we will make that

23     decision some time tomorrow.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Tuesday we can't sit because we have no

25     space, no courtroom.  Yes.

Page 33870

 1             MR. JOSSE:  And so I am laying our cards firmly on the table.  My

 2     learned friend will get a proofing note in relation to tomorrow's

 3     witnesses.  They haven't been done as yet.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 5             Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would like the cards to be laid face up.  I

 7     would like the statement.  If he is planning on possibly calling a

 8     witness, this gamesmanship is just silly.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed --

10             MR. JOSSE:  I --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop, stop, and let's proceed.  And let's try

12     to keep up to the standard, high standard of practice when it comes to

13     interrelationships between Prosecution and Defence and vice versa.

14             Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

17        Q.   Hello, Witness.  My name is Peter McCloskey.  I represent the

18     Prosecution in this case.  And were you a brigade commander in May of

19     1992 in this area?

20        A.   I was brigade commander from the 10th of June 1992.

21        Q.   In that particular area that you've spoken of?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, I want to show you a document, and let me know if you recall

24     seeing it.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's in evidence.  It's 65 ter 5D1415.

Page 33871

 1        Q.   I'll give a hard copy of it.  It may help you to look at it.  And

 2     I'll let you take a little bit of time to read it, but do you see any of

 3     your units in the address list of that?  I see the

 4     30th Infantry Division.

 5             So do you see your -- your unit in the address box?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Which one?

 8        A.   The 1st Light Infantry Brigade of the 30th Division.  The word

 9     "Sipovo" is missing here.  But all the units of the 30th Division are

10     listed.

11        Q.   Well, if you could just take some time.  I'm not going to go over

12     a lot of detail with this, but we can see that it's sent out by

13     General Gvero from the forward command post at Drvar on 31 July, 1995.

14             Okay.  And just in the first paragraph, we can see that in the

15     middle of it, it says:

16             "The VRS Main Staff, profoundly aware of the gravity and

17     complexity of the situation, has adopted the decision to undertake all

18     measures by engaging the most senior officers of the Main Staff, headed

19     by the commander, General Mladic, and his assistants."

20             And then it goes on to talk about halting the and smashing the

21     aggression.

22             So do you agree with this?  Was this an extremely grave situation

23     at the time that needed the attention of the Main Staff, General Mladic,

24     and his assistants?

25        A.   The situation was extremely grave.  And probably for those

Page 33872

 1     reasons the Main Staff made such a decision.

 2        Q.   And you know this reference here when it says "and his

 3     assistants," General Gvero was one of his assistants; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, for morale and legal affairs.

 5        Q.   Yes.  And as we go down to the different paragraphs, we see some

 6     issues related to morale and legal affairs.  We also see in the third

 7     paragraph he says:

 8             "It is indispensable to stabilise the units, the

 9     2nd Krajina Corps, deployed on these lines today, as soon as possible,

10     and use them in combat on the designated axis according to the order of

11     the Main Staff."

12             So he's also, in the name of the Main Staff, passing on the order

13     regarding the units and the deployment of those units; isn't he?

14        A.   No, this is a piece of information, and an order for the use of

15     units probably -- or certainly, rather, went along the command line, the

16     command chain of command.

17        Q.   Well, then, let's look further.  You think -- let me ask you if

18     you followed any of this.  And it's the fifth paragraph in this document;

19     on page 2, it's the second paragraph in English.

20             "All troops currently with their families, who are heading

21     towards Banja Luka, must return to their commands immediately.  The

22     combatants of the 5th Glamoc Brigade must urgently report to their

23     brigade command in the Mliniste area."

24             That's an order, isn't it?

25        A.   This, in my view, sir, was a report; information.

Page 33873

 1        Q.   So you don't think the combatants of the 5th Glamoc Brigade must

 2     urgently report to their brigade command.  You don't think that's an

 3     order coming from General Gvero?  That they can ignore that?  That's just

 4     information?  The commander of this unit can't take this document and

 5     say, Get in here?

 6        A.   Well, you see, at the time, I didn't extract parts of this

 7     report.  For me and my officers, this was a report containing

 8     information, and that is how we understood it.

 9             Now, whether this context can be taken out of -- this sentence

10     can be taken out of context, that's another matter.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let's keep going to the next paragraph.  It's page 2,

12     B/C/S.  And I'm sure you remember he was the head of the morale, legal,

13     and religious branch.

14             "Various rumors and disinformation are being spread within the

15     units which are exceptionally detrimental and dangerous.  Energetic and

16     rigorous measures should be taken against those spreading them.  Urgently

17     establish extraordinary court-martials, and in spirit of instructions

18     given, organise trials for all cases of destructive behaviour and the

19     weakening of combat readiness."

20             Isn't that the chief of the legal department of the VRS ordering

21     you to set up court-martials, to put soldiers on trial that are doing

22     this?

23        A.   No.  This is not the way in which a court-martial is established.

24        Q.   So you can just ignore these words of General Gvero?

25        A.   We can't ignore them, but this is just information as to what

Page 33874

 1     should be done and undertaken for each case individually.

 2        Q.   Did you do this?  Did you set up court-martials?  Did you

 3     investigate these issues?  I'm sure he learned about this during his --

 4     his tour of the troops.  He wouldn't have said it had he didn't meant it.

 5        A.   We did not form court-marshals, or, rather, I did not form a

 6     court-martial because that was not my responsibility.  I did not have the

 7     authority to do that.  And there was no need, either.

 8        Q.   Do you disagree with the foundation of his statement?

 9        A.   This statement, or, rather, this report was not drawn up with a

10     view to forming court-martials, but rather that measures should be taken

11     by those responsible within their terms of reference.

12        Q.   A brigade commander has significant responsibilities to punish

13     those under him that are violating the law and creating the kind of havoc

14     discussed in this report.  You agree with me on that?

15        A.   A brigade commander, according to the regulations on military

16     discipline, has prescribed competencies regarding appropriate measures to

17     be taken, and he couldn't do anything that was not envisaged by those

18     rules.  And disciplinary measures for disciplinary offences were

19     prescribed by the brigade commander, by the battalion commander,

20     et cetera, by the highest level officer.  And this go -- could go as far

21     as a ruling on military detention.

22        Q.   Of course.  And you must recall that General Gvero came back to

23     your area in early October in a leadership position along with other

24     members of the Main Staff; do you remember that?

25        A.   I don't understand the question.

Page 33875

 1        Q.   Do you remember him coming back to your area in October, playing

 2     a leadership role with other members of the Main Staff?

 3        A.   No, General Gvero was not a leader.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's take a look at 65 ter 4586.

 6        Q.   I'll give you a -- a copy of that.  So you can take a look at it.

 7     And I'm sorry I didn't have time to translate all of this, but we did

 8     have some of it translated.

 9             And the English first page I'll go over some of it.  It's the

10     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  It's dated 11 October, very

11     urgent:

12             "Blocking of the enemy offensive in the western part of the

13     front."

14             And it's to the commands of the various units, including the

15     2nd Krajina Corps and the 30th Infantry Division and other corps.

16             Take a little time to look at it.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse.

18             MR. JOSSE:  Perhaps the witness could take his headphones off.  I

19     don't think he speaks any English, perhaps Your Honour would check.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Culic, do you understand English?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Can I ask you, please, to remove your

23     headphones for a short while.

24             Thank you.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And in all due respect, am I being double-teamed

Page 33876

 1     here, Mr. President?

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, can you -- since there is an objection --

 3             MR. JOSSE:  Is he really?  I'm raising a legal point.  Is he

 4     really saying that I can't get up and raise a legal point.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If you feel Mr. Krgovic can't, go ahead.

 6             MR. JOSSE:  Well, that's plain offensive, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know why we have to get to this now at the

 8     end of this trial.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Go ahead, Mr. Josse.

11             MR. JOSSE:  Thank you.  Your Honour, since the vast majority of

12     witnesses have given evidence in this case, the law on the Prosecution

13     adducing new documents in the course of the Defence case has been

14     clarified by the Appeals Chamber in the Prlic case.  And rather than go

15     through that in great detail, really what I'm asking my learned friend is

16     to say whether this goes to the credibility of the witness or whether it

17     goes to the substance of the case, because that decision has really set a

18     distinction that needs to be drawn between the two.

19             I appreciate that this Court has visited that area on a number of

20     occasion, but not in the light of that particular decision.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay:  Thank you.

22             Yes, do you wish to comment, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, this particular use of this

24     document is designed for impeachment because --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, that's enough.  That's enough.

Page 33877

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  But --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  But all he wanted to know whether it's for

 3     substance or for credibility.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's for both.  It's for both.  It's absolutely

 5     for both.  I don't think the Court has ever shown an inclination to make

 6     that adversarial division in every case.  Sometimes you found it to be

 7     appropriate, but in this case, I don't think it's particularly

 8     unappropriate, I think.  Inappropriate, excuse me.

 9             MR. JOSSE:  I won't say anymore at the moment.  I reserve our

10     position until such time that the Prosecution seek to introduce it.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, let's proceed and conclude, please.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   All right, sir.  The part I'm drawing your attention to is under

14     number 5, "Unit tasked."

15             And it says:

16             "Main Staff of the VRS commands with the entire operation

17     engaging the following commanding officers:

18             "Chief of the Main Staff of the VRS,

19     Lieutenant-General Manojlo Milovanovic, commands with the" --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The text in English on the screens, please, for

21     the interpreters.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Page 2 in English.

23        Q.   "Chief of the Main Staff of the VRS,

24     Lieutenant-General Manojlo Milovanovic, commands with the entire

25     operation and coordinates combat activities of the corps, the OGs, and

Page 33878

 1     the brigades from the IKM of the Main Staff of the VRS, Banja Luka.

 2     Assistant commander of the Main Staff of the VRS for morale,

 3     Lieutenant-General Milan Gvero, coordinates the activities of the 1st NG,

 4     the 11th Krupa Light Infantry Brigade, and a PJP unit, which" -- I will

 5     just call it a PJP unit, and we'll get into the special police business,

 6     because it -- we know where that is.

 7             "And is responsible for the defence of Novi Grad and Prijedor."

 8             And then it goes on.

 9             So in this document, General Gvero is responsible, in part, for

10     the defence of Novi Grad and Prijedor; correct?

11        A.   I never saw this order before.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but you are seeing it now.  So please answer

13     the question.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this order, it unequivocally

15     says that General Gvero shall coordinate the activities.  And a

16     coordinator in our military terminology means that if something is not an

17     order in the activities, he should coordinate.  He doesn't have command

18     of the units.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Sir, my question was:  Was he, in part, responsible for the

21     defence of Novi Grad and Prijedor?

22        A.   That is what it says here in the order.  If it says that he's

23     responsible, then he's responsible.

24        Q.   And coordination military, you're a career military guy, that is

25     a function of command, isn't it?  If we look at the JNA lexicon under

Page 33879

 1     coordination, we will find that that is something that commanders do.

 2        A.   I think that it says here that he should coordinate activities.

 3     So he's not in command of those units because the units have their own

 4     commands, according to the chain of command.  And I think that this

 5     refers to coordination, as any other coordination.  Should some issues

 6     arise during the execution of an assignments, then these should be

 7     coordinated.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't have anything further, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Is there re-examination,

11     Mr. Krgovic?

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please, go ahead.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Culic, you're aware that on the 29th of

16     July, 1995, a decision was taken to declare a state of war throughout

17     Republika Srpska, the decision being taken by President Karadzic.  And

18     that by that decision court-martials were established and certain

19     punishments envisaged and a stricter regime for perpetrators.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection, leading.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to save time,

23     Your Honour.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 33880

 1        Q.   Are you familiar with the provisions of a state of war, according

 2     to this decision, with reference to military courts and judicial bodies?

 3        A.   I am aware of that order, but I can't remember the substance of

 4     everything because I would need to remind myself, but I know that such an

 5     order was made.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no

 7     further questions.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Culic, we have come to the end of your

 9     testimony.  On behalf of everyone here, I wish to thank you for having

10     come over at such short notice, and I also wish you a safe journey back

11     home.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic, documents?

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, we don't have any documents.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

18             Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  The last document, 4586.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

21             MR. JOSSE:  I'm very loathe to do this, because a submission in

22     relation to this takes some time.

23             My first observation, my learned friend says it went to

24     credibility.  He didn't ask the witness one question about what this man

25     had come here to testify about; namely, whether Gvero was in that place

Page 33881

 1     on the 27th of July.  He chose, instead, to ask him about other things.

 2     So we invite the Trial Chamber to say that it can't possibly go to

 3     credibility when he doesn't challenge the witness's evidence in any

 4     substantive way at all.

 5             That's the easy part.  The more difficult part, Your Honour, is

 6     inviting the Court to examine the decision of the 26th of February, 2009,

 7     in the Prlic case.  I am going to do this shortly, if I may, which may

 8     result in you considering the matter in due course.

 9             I would simply invite the Trial Chamber to look at paragraphs 18,

10     25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31 of that decision.  And when you have done

11     that, in our submission, this particular document falls foul of that

12     decision, both as the credibility and as to substance or guilt in both

13     regards.  It doesn't fall within the test as now laid down by the

14     Appeals Chamber, and it shouldn't be entered into evidence in this case.

15             I'll leave it at that, because doing more than that, so far as

16     this document is concerned, would be making a mountain out of a mole

17     hill, I do accept.  But, as a matter of principle, it is quite important,

18     particularly since we have more witnesses to come.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you.

20             Mr. McCloskey, briefly, please.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's particularly shocking to me what he just

22     said.  Anyone in the courtroom saw why they called this man.

23             One, because of the alibi; two, to show General Gvero was just

24     there on morale issues, was just there because he was from Mrkonjic Grad,

25     was just there because he was there.  That's what that was all about.  He

Page 33882

 1     was not commanding.  He was not issuing any orders.  That came through.

 2             For him to not tell you about that part is astounding.  And

 3     that's what my response was about.  And I apologise for being a little

 4     angry, I don't like being set up like I was with this witness.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We'll reserve our position on this

 8     after we have gone into it more deeply.

 9             You don't have the next witness here available, I suppose,

10     Mr. Krgovic, do you?

11             MR. JOSSE:  We don't.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  So tomorrow at 12.30.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.13 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of July,

15                           2009, at 12.30 p.m.