Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33953

 1                           Wednesday, 15 July 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon everybody.  Good afternoon to you,

 7     Mr. Registrar.  Could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is the case number

10     IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor verse Vujadin Popovic et al.

11             Thank you.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  For the record, all the accused are

13     present.  Prosecution, I see we have some added elements to your team.

14             Mr. McCloskey, good afternoon to you.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Yes, we have a

16     new lawyer, Jelena Plamenac, who is helping us out.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Shorten the time of translations, I suppose.

18             Defence teams I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic for the Beara

19     team, Mr. Krgovic for the Gvero Defence team, and that's it.

20             As you would have noticed, we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis

21     today, Judge Kwon couldn't be with us, and so we are proceeding

22     accordingly.

23             Mr. Milosevic, good afternoon to you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Had you cooperated straight away with the Tribunal

Page 33954

 1     when we issued this subpoena, we would have had this sitting last week

 2     and all lawyers here would have had less trouble.  You avoided contempt

 3     proceedings just like that.  I hope there will not be a repetition of

 4     this if you are summoned as a witness later on in any other trial, and I

 5     expect you to apologise to the Trial Chamber for having behaved the way

 6     you did.

 7             Before we proceed any further, since you are a witness here, our

 8     Rules require that you make a solemn declaration prior to testifying to

 9     the effect that you will be testifying the truth and the whole truth.

10             The text of the solemn declaration has already been handed to

11     you, please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking

12     with us.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  SRETEN MILOSEVIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

18             Mr. Bourgon.

19             Yes, Mr. McCloskey, a warning, a caution?  Yes, I was going to

20     come to that, but I wanted to ask Mr. Bourgon first.

21             MR. BOURGON:  I wanted to say exactly this, Mr. President.  Thank

22     you.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, okay.

24             Witness, you lived through parts of the events that we are

25     talking about, and there is a possibility that questions may be put to

Page 33955

 1     you which, if answered truthfully by you, could expose you to criminal

 2     proceedings.  I am not saying that this will be the case, but I cannot

 3     exclude the possibility, and because of that, by law I am bound to

 4     caution you and explain to you the rights that are available.

 5             First of all, under our Rules, Rule 90 in particular, if

 6     questions are put to you which, if answered truthfully, could expose you

 7     to criminal proceedings you have a right to ask the Trial Chamber to

 8     exempt you from answering such questions.  This is not an absolute right.

 9     We may accede to your request and exempt you from answering such

10     questions, in which case that would be the end of the story as far as

11     those questions are concerned, or we can force you to answer those

12     questions.  If we force you to answer those questions, you are bound to

13     answer them truthfully, but you have a further right then and that is

14     that whatever you say in the reply to such incriminatory questions cannot

15     be made use of against you in any criminal proceedings or in any

16     proceedings that might be taken, unless these proceedings are for

17     perjury, for false testimony.

18             Have you understood what I have explained to you?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can, therefore, now proceed.

21             Mr. Bourgon or Ms. Nikolic, I don't know, but I saw Mr. Bourgon

22     ready to stand up.

23             Mr. Bourgon, how long do you expect your examination-in-chief to

24     last.

25             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon.  I did

Page 33956

 1     indicate to the parties in the courtroom, but I failed to inform the

 2     Trial Chamber, I expect to take about an hour and a half and no more than

 3     two hours to finish the testimony of this witness.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Haynes, you had given some indication that you might have got

 6     involved in this witness as well.

 7             Do you intend to put questions to him on cross-examination or do

 8     you wish to reserve your position?

 9             MR. HAYNES:  I think everybody knows my position because I sent

10     them all an e-mail this morning, which is at this very, very, late stage

11     of proceedings, I take the view that this witness has come to deal with a

12     very narrow and discreet issue that arose from the evidence of the

13     witness summoned by the Trial Chamber to give evidence.  And that has

14     absolutely no interest to me or my client at all, and on that basis, I do

15     not propose to cross-examine him, but I would hope that the parameters of

16     his evidence are kept within sensible bounds given the very late stage of

17     the proceedings.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes.

19             And you, Mr. McCloskey, of course you haven't heard the

20     examination-in-chief.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I hope I would -- wouldn't take no

22     longer than the Defence would take on direct and hopefully less.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's try and finish this witness

24     today, and we need to finish before quarter to 7.00, not 7.00.

25             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon Judges,

Page 33957

 1     good afternoon colleagues in the courtroom.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Bourgon:

 3        Q.   And good afternoon to you, Mr. Milosevic.

 4             Can you hear me, Mr. Milosevic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I see you are looking at the screen in front of you.  I am not

 7     sure if you can see -- if you can see me on the screen before you or you

 8     can look at me.  It's as you wish.  So allow me first to begin, sir, to

 9     begin -- for the record to introduce myself.  My name is

10     Stephane Bourgon.  We have had the pleasure of meeting this week, and

11     today I am accompanied with members of the Nikolic Defence team.

12     Ms. Jelena Nikolic and Mrs. -- sorry, Ms. Chloe Grandon, and together we

13     represent Drago Nikolic in these proceedings.

14             I have quite a number of questions for you today, but I will try

15     to make this as short as possible.  What is very important is that if at

16     any time you do not understand a question that I may ask you, do not

17     hesitate to stop me and to ask me to clarify this question.

18             Do you understand this, Mr. Milosevic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  To begin with, please state your full name and date

21     of birth for the record, please.

22        A.   My name is Sreten Milosevic, I was born on the 17th of February,

23     1959.

24        Q.   And how old are you today, Mr. Milosevic?

25        A.   50.

Page 33958

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Going straight to the events, in July 1995 I believe

 2     you were a member of the VRS.  Which unit were you a member of at that

 3     time?

 4        A.   I was a member of the Zvornik Brigade in Zvornik.

 5        Q.   And what was your rank then, sir?

 6        A.   Captain.

 7        Q.   And do you recall when exactly you joined the Zvornik Brigade?

 8        A.   In September of 1994.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So would I be correct that by July 1995 you had been

10     in the Zvornik Brigade for about ten months; is that more or less the

11     case?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   That being the case, can you tell us how well you knew the

14     members of the Zvornik Brigade?

15        A.   In the ten months I was there and in view of the fact that the

16     brigade had more than 4.000 military conscripts, I can say that I got to

17     know the narrow group of people who were in command of the brigade.

18        Q.   And where were you born, Mr. Milosevic, and where did you go to

19     school?

20        A.   I was born in the village of Lupoglava, Kladanj municipality.  I

21     attended the primary school in Stupari, Kladanj municipality.  I

22     completed the secondary school in Banovici, and I obtained my degree in

23     Brcko whereupon I worked in the mine near Zivinice.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name of the

25     mine.

Page 33959

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you repeat the name of the mine again, please?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Djurdjevik mine in Djurdjevik.

 3             MR. BOURGON:

 4        Q.   And, sir, by July 1995, how familiar were you with the various

 5     location in the area of Zvornik?

 6        A.   I've already said that I was not familiar that well with the area

 7     of responsibility.

 8        Q.   And can you tell us what position you held in the Zvornik Brigade

 9     from the time you joined until July of 1995?

10        A.   As I arrived in the brigade in September of 1994, I became deputy

11     or advisor to the assistant commander for logistics.  Several months

12     later, I was appointed assistant commander of the Zvornik Brigade.

13        Q.   Is that assistant commander of the complete brigade or assistant

14     commander of the logistics?

15        A.   Assistant commander for logistics.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And who was your immediate superior in that capacity?

17        A.   The brigade commander was, Mr. Pandurevic.

18        Q.   And if the commander was absent, who was your immediate superior?

19        A.   In the commander's absence, it was the Chief of Staff who was in

20     charge of the brigade.

21        Q.   And do you recall who that was in July 1995?

22        A.   Dragan Obrenovic was the Chief of Staff.

23        Q.   And, sir, do you recall who were the other assistant commanders

24     of the Zvornik Brigade?

25        A.   Assistant for moral guidance and religious matters and assistant

Page 33960

 1     for security of the Zvornik Brigade.

 2        Q.   And do you remember who held those positions in July of 1995?

 3        A.   Assistant commander for moral guidance was Mr. Simic, and

 4     assistant commander for security was Mr. Nikolic.

 5        Q.   And do you recall who was responsible within the Zvornik Brigade

 6     for intelligence matters?

 7        A.   The responsible individuals for intelligence were Mr. Petkovic

 8     and Mr. Vukotic.

 9        Q.   And can you tell us what was your working relationship with

10     Drago Nikolic?

11        A.   There was no professional relationship since I was in charge of

12     logistical support.  We did not have any dealings, so we did not get into

13     contact with each other.

14        Q.   Are there any occasions when you met in the course of your work?

15        A.   We would meet during the briefings by Mr. Pandurevic which

16     normally took place in the morning and did not take place that often,

17     that would we would meet there occasionally.

18        Q.   And how often, if at all, did you socialise with Drago Nikolic?

19        A.   Not that often.  As I said, it was periodical.

20        Q.   Now, in your capacity as assistant commander for logistics, can

21     you describe, in a few words, what exactly was your job within the

22     Zvornik Brigade?  What did you deal with?

23        A.   The duties of logistical support, or, rather, my duties were to

24     provide supplies for the life and work of the brigade; in other words,

25     food provisions, clothing, fuel, and such-like.

Page 33961

 1        Q.   And what about transport?  Did that come under you as assistant

 2     commander for logistics?

 3        A.   Under the establishment of the logics support there existed a

 4     logistics battalion which had in its possession certain vehicles and was

 5     manned with mechanics who did their duties both in respect of transport

 6     vehicle -- vehicles and combat vehicles.

 7        Q.   And this battalion, sir, what was the relationship, if any,

 8     between that battalion and yourself?

 9        A.   I had a relationship with the Chief of Staff of the logistics

10     battalion, and on occasion, I would contact the battalion directly.

11        Q.   Let me make my question a bit more precise:  Were you in command

12     of the logistics battalion?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Sir, in July of 1995 and throughout the period of time you spent

15     with the Zvornik Brigade, did you perform the function of brigade

16     operations duty officer?

17        A.   Yes, I was the duty officer of the brigade in extraordinary

18     situations.  There was this one period when there was an extraordinary

19     situation, but I asked the commander, Mr. Pandurevic, to relieve me of

20     this particular duty so that I am no longer a part of the group of duty

21     officers.

22        Q.   And do you recall, sir, who was the brigade operations duty

23     officer on 13 July 1995?

24        A.   I was.

25        Q.   And was that, to your recollection, a normal duty?

Page 33962

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   And do you recall other times when you were or when you performed

 3     the function of brigade operations duty officer?

 4        A.   It also happened that there would be occasional extraordinary

 5     duty stints, since the Zvornik Brigade was deployed in other AORs for the

 6     purposes of the VRS.  Therefore, even those who were not permanent

 7     members of duty -- of the group of duty operations officers would

 8     sometimes perform that duty.

 9        Q.   And, sir, did you perform the function of operations duty officer

10     at the IKM or forward command post of the brigade?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Do you recall any dates when you were operations duty officer at

13     the IKM?

14        A.   I could not recall the dates, but you showed them to me in your

15     office when it was that I was on duty at the IKM.

16        Q.   And did you recognise your signature on those -- on the dates

17     that I showed you?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And if I go back to the period of service for the brigade

20     operations duty officer, how long did it last?

21        A.   Normally, 24 hours.

22        Q.   And was that always the case?

23        A.   Sometimes the duty stint might exceed the 24 hours to 26 or even

24     more.

25        Q.   And, sir, to your recollection how often did the brigade

Page 33963

 1     operations duty officer, whether at the brigade or at the IKM, perform a

 2     double shift or a two-day shift?

 3        A.   It did not happen often, but I am aware of certain instances.

 4        Q.   And at what time did the operations duty officer in the brigade

 5     begin his period of duty?

 6        A.   One would start a new period of duty between 7.00 and 8.00 in the

 7     morning.

 8        Q.   And was that always the case or were there exceptions to this, to

 9     your knowledge?

10        A.   This was the rule, but it would so happen that the time would

11     shift because it was impossible to keep to the exact times.

12        Q.   And, sir, as the brigade operations duty officer, were you

13     assisted by anyone?

14        A.   Normally there would be the chief duty officer and his assistant

15     who would be appointed.

16        Q.   And tell us a bit about the duties of the assistant, when was he

17     on and when was he off?

18        A.   The duty officer would start his duty from the hand-over time for

19     the subsequent 24 hours.  Now, the assistant duty officer would have his

20     stint from 12.00 a.m. -- or, rather, 12.00 p.m. until 5.00 the subsequent

21     morning.

22        Q.   So that would be -- am I correct in saying that this would be

23     during the night?

24        A.   Yes, 12.00 midnight until 5.00 in the morning.

25        Q.   And where was, sir, the office of the brigade operations duty

Page 33964

 1     officer located?

 2        A.   The office of the operations duty officer was upstairs in the

 3     building of the command.

 4        Q.   And do you recall in which room it was?

 5        A.   As one ascends the stairs on to the first floor, the office is

 6     immediately to the right.

 7        Q.   Sir, at this time I would like to show you an exhibit.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have in e-court please 3D110.

 9        Q.   And, sir, this exhibit will appear on the screen before you.  And

10     my first question is:  I would like to know if you are familiar with this

11     exhibit.

12             MR. BOURGON:  And I would like to have page 2, please, on the

13     screen.

14        Q.   Are you familiar, sir, with this floor plan?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And what is it?

17        A.   This is the layout of rooms on the first floor.

18        Q.   Sir, I will ask you now to make some markings on this floor plan.

19     I will ask the Court Usher to give you a special pen.  I believe this

20     must have been explained to you, and I will ask you to make some markings

21     on this exhibit.

22             And first, I would like you to indicate by a 1, with a circle

23     around it, in the duty officer room.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   And do you recall where your office was, and if so, to indicate

Page 33965

 1     this with a 2 with a circle.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   And if you recall where the commander's office was, that is

 4     Commander Pandurevic as you identified him, can you put a 3.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   And the office of Dragan Obrenovic with a 4, if you know where

 7     that is.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And do you recall where the office of Drago Nikolic was at that

10     time?

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Now, looking at this floor plan, are you able to tell which side

13     of the building had a view on the road?  And if so, if you can put a 6

14     with a circle around it on the side which gives a view to the road.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He just forgot to say 5 is Drago Nikolic's

17     office, for the record.

18             MR. BOURGON:  I did not say it?  Thank you.

19        Q.   So, sir, can you confirm that the 5 with a circle around it is

20     the office where Drago Nikolic was?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And can you tell us what the 6 -- is that where the side of the

23     road with this building?

24        A.   This is the Zvornik-Bijeljina region road.

25        Q.   And can you indicate with a 7, with a circle around it, where the

Page 33966

 1     Drina River would be compared to this building.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   If I can just ask you, sir, to, on the bottom right corner,

 4     simply to put your initials and the date, which is 15 July 2009.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. BOURGON:  And I would like to save this exhibit for admission

 8     purposes.

 9        Q.   Sir, did you share your office with anyone at the time?

10        A.   I shared my office with Mr. Mijatovic.  He would be very often

11     present in that office with me, Mr. Mijatovic.

12             MR. BOURGON:  I won't be needing the Court Usher anymore.  Thank

13     you very much.

14        Q.   Sir, do you recall who was on duty, if anyone, at the entrance of

15     the brigade command building on the ground floor?

16        A.   No, I don't think there was a duty officer on the ground floor in

17     that period of time.

18        Q.   And, sir, do you recall if there was a person on duty on the

19     first floor of the command building in the hallway where your office was

20     and the other offices were?

21        A.   No, there had never been any duty officer stationed there.

22        Q.   Sir, do you recall the last time that you saw the brigade

23     operations duty officer notebook?

24        A.   I saw it in your office when you showed it to me.  That was the

25     last time.

Page 33967

 1        Q.   And, sir, do you recall, having looking at that book -- or were

 2     you able to say who was the duty officer the day before you on 12 July?

 3        A.   You also showed me the handwriting, but I did not recall who the

 4     duty officer was before my duty stint.  You told me it was Mr. Maric, I

 5     still don't remember that, and I am not familiar with his handwriting.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And do you recall or were you able to tell who was

 7     the brigade operations duty officer on the 14th of July, the day after

 8     you?

 9        A.   On the 14th of July, Mr. Dragan Jokic took up the duty after me.

10        Q.   And what was, if you remember, the rank and position of

11     Dragan Jokic?

12        A.   The rank of major.

13        Q.   And what position did he hold at the time, if you know?

14        A.   Chief of the engineering service.

15        Q.   Now, given, sir, that you did mention that you did look at the

16     brigade operations duty officer notebook, what was your impression when

17     you look at the entries for the 13th of July?

18        A.   The entries for the 13th of July could easily be seen there.

19     I -- my handwriting is normally very poor, and I made notes on that day

20     during my shift.

21        Q.   And, sir, going back to that period of time - and I'm talking of

22     the day that you are on duty - what information did you receive on that

23     day concerning the 28th Division, or you might have referred to it as the

24     column of soldiers; what information did you have on that day?

25        A.   Part of the entries I made when I was operations duty officer

Page 33968

 1     included a note to the effect that the columns of the 28th Division were

 2     sent through the Zvornik area toward Tuzla.

 3        Q.   And how important was this information to you at the time?

 4        A.   It was important at the time in view of the fact that

 5     Commander Pandurevic was not present in the brigade and that some of the

 6     brigade units went away together with Mr. Pandurevic.  In other words,

 7     the brigade was not at full strength, and there was a threat to the

 8     brigade if the column of the 28th Division was to pass through the area.

 9        Q.   And do you recall what actions or whether any actions were taken

10     in that respect concerning the column?

11        A.   There is an entry in the book which says that the commander, or,

12     rather, his deputy, Mr. Obrenovic, issued an order to raise the level of

13     combat readiness of certain units and that the personnel who were outside

14     resting be brought in.

15        Q.   Now, is this something that you can tell the Trial Chamber just

16     from reading the book, or is this something that you remember?

17        A.   This is what I read in the notebook while I was on duty.

18        Q.   And, sir, what information, if any, did you have or did you

19     receive on 13 July 1995 concerning prisoners of war?

20        A.   On the 13th of July, when I was on duty, I didn't receive any

21     information or any -- or any knowledge about any prisoner.

22        Q.   And, sir, during this same evening of 13th July, what

23     information, if any, did you obtain concerning members of the brigade

24     being ordered to provide security for prisoners at any location?

25        A.   I had no information whatsoever, and one can see that from the

Page 33969

 1     operations duty officer notebook that there was no entry concerning this

 2     particular issue, because had it been the case, the duty of the duty

 3     operations officer would be to record it in the book.

 4        Q.   And, sir, on the evening of 13 July what information, if any, did

 5     you receive concerning events or any event taking place at the Orahovac

 6     school?

 7        A.   I didn't receive any information on the evening of the 13th.

 8        Q.   Sir, that evening of 30 July -- 13 July, I apologise, do you

 9     recall leaving the brigade operations duty officer room at any time?

10        A.   I left my post that night at 2400 hours, and I went to bed.

11        Q.   And before that, do you recall leaving the room at any time?

12        A.   I may have gone to the toilet or to have breakfast or lunch or

13     whatever.

14        Q.   And, sir, was there any rule concerning the brigade operations

15     duty officer concerning where he was supposed to stay during his period

16     of service?

17        A.   The operations duty officer must be in his office during his

18     shift.  That was not a rule, that was his duty, an obligation.

19        Q.   And sir, when you say "his office," is that his own office or the

20     operations duty officer office?

21        A.   On the day when he's on duty, he should stay in the operations

22     duty officers' room.

23        Q.   Sir, today as we sit here, do you know someone by the name of

24     Momir Nikolic?

25        A.   Yes, I remember him.

Page 33970

 1        Q.   Sir, do you recall when you first met that person?

 2        A.   My first encounter with Mr. Momir Nikolic was sometime in 1997 on

 3     the premises of the company called Stamparija [phoen] where he was the

 4     manager, and that was the first time that I met him.

 5        Q.   And can you tell us a bit more about the context of your

 6     encounter with Mr. Momir Nikolic at that time?

 7        A.   In 1996, when I left the VRS in the month of May, I started my

 8     own business.  I was involved in the sales of consumer goods, and by

 9     looking for business opportunity, I ran into a friend who wanted to

10     introduce me to this printing plant and allow me to establish some

11     business contacts with them.

12        Q.   And do you recall if any information was exchanged between you

13     and Momir Nikolic during this encounter?

14        A.   When we met first, he told me that he was a security -- he used

15     to be a security officer with the Zvornik Brigade --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Bratunac Brigade.

17             MR. BOURGON:

18        Q.   And sir, where was this business that you visited when this

19     encounter took place?

20        A.   We met in an office inside this company or this printing plant,

21     and I still don't know where it is located, precisely.

22        Q.   But the shop itself, do you recall where the shop itself is?  In

23     which town is the shop?  This printing shop.

24        A.   It was in Bratunac.

25        Q.   And do you recall what was the relationship between this printing

Page 33971

 1     shop and Momir Nikolic, what was he doing there?

 2        A.   When I came there, he worked as the manager of this printing

 3     shop.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, do you recall seeing this person, Momir Nikolic, when

 5     you were brigade operations duty officer on 13 July 1995?

 6        A.   I already said that I saw him for the first time in 1997, which

 7     means that I had never met him in the Zvornik Brigade.

 8        Q.   And, sir, do you recall, going back to the evening of 13 July,

 9     1995, if any officer who was not a member of the Zvornik Brigade visited

10     Standard Barracks that evening?

11        A.   No, I don't remember anyone from some other brigade paying a

12     visit.  And in order for them to visit the brigade at any given time, an

13     entry to that effect would be made in the book of the operations duty

14     officer.

15        Q.   Sir, on that evening of 13 July 1995, did anyone come to you

16     introducing themselves as the chief of security of the Bratunac Brigade?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Is this something you would remember, and if so why?

19        A.   I already said that any visits from other brigades or strangers

20     coming to the brigade would require the procedure to be applied by them

21     going through the gate and then the officer there in charge would bring

22     such individuals to the operations duty officer, and then it was -- would

23     be up to him to decide whether to accommodate the person who wants to

24     visit the brigade or not.

25        Q.   Sir, on that evening of 13 July, 1995, did anyone come to you, if

Page 33972

 1     you recall, asking to see Drago Nikolic?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And do you know where Drago Nikolic was on the evening of

 4     13 July?

 5        A.   No, I didn't know where Drago Nikolic was at that time.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, do you know who the military police on duty at the gate

 7     were during the evening of 13 July?

 8        A.   I know that there was an officer on duty, but I don't remember

 9     because I didn't know the names of people who were in the military

10     police.

11        Q.   And how do you know if there was somebody there that night?

12        A.   Whatever situation occurs, and particularly if there is an

13     emergency, two military policemen had to be on duty at the gate in order

14     to monitor the entry and exit of both individuals and vehicles.

15        Q.   And, sir, if -- do you recall, sorry, if any military policemen

16     on duty at the gate contacted you during the evening of 13 July?

17        A.   No, I don't.  But, as I said before, according to the rules, if I

18     would -- if I should receive a call from the gate, then I would have

19     recorded that in the notebook.

20        Q.   Sir, do you recall who decided who -- which officer would be on

21     duty, whether at the brigade or at the forward command post, at any given

22     time?

23        A.   I think that that was the task of the Chief of Staff and the

24     operations sector of his office.

25        Q.   And, sir, during the evening of 13 July, while you were the

Page 33973

 1     brigade operations duty officer, do you recall if there was a change of

 2     duty officer at the forward command post that evening?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And sir, do you know who is Mihajlo Galic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Who is he?

 7        A.   Mr. Galic worked for the personnel service.

 8        Q.   Do you remember his rank?

 9        A.   No, I don't.

10        Q.   What contact did you have, if any, with Mihajlo Galic on

11     13 July, 1995?

12        A.   No, I had no contact with Mr. Galic.

13        Q.   You said earlier that you went to bed at midnight.  At what time

14     did you wake up and resume your functions as duty officer?

15        A.   I continued my duty as operations duty officer at 5.00 in the

16     morning.

17        Q.   And do you replace -- sorry, can you tell us what you did that

18     morning?

19        A.   That morning I handed over my duty because of -- I first recorded

20     what I did and then on the 14th, I handed over the duty to the next

21     officer who was supposed to take it over.

22        Q.   Did you have any contact that morning with Drago Nikolic?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Once you had been replaced as brigade operations duty officer,

25     what did you do?

Page 33974

 1        A.   I went to my office to do my everyday job.

 2        Q.   Sir, what do you know or what can you tell us about buses with

 3     prisoners driving in front of Standard Barracks on that day?

 4        A.   I remember that on that day I either received information or

 5     heard somebody commenting about convoys of buses passing from Srebrenica

 6     via Zvornik to Bijeljina.  Given that my office was opposite of the road,

 7     I had to get out of my office in order to see this convoy of vehicles

 8     that was travelling from Zvornik to Bijeljina and after that, I went back

 9     to my office and resumed my work.

10        Q.   Let me ask you a few questions which are -- which come from your

11     answer.  First you said "convoys," with an S.  Were the people speaking

12     about one convoy or many convoys of prisoners driving in front of the

13     barracks?

14        A.   I don't have information that there were a number of convoys.  I

15     did see a convoy on that occasion when I went out, but I don't know how

16     many of them were in total.

17        Q.   Did you count the buses, and who, to the best of your knowledge,

18     was inside these buses?

19        A.   I did not count the buses.  According to what you saw, those were

20     Muslims onboard the buses.

21        Q.   And, sir, until you saw those buses on that day, what information

22     did you have about the presence of prisoners in the area of Zvornik up to

23     that point?

24        A.   At that particular moment, I didn't know anything about prisoners

25     in Zvornik.  At that moment, I realised that buses were passing by with

Page 33975

 1     Muslims onboard, but I didn't know that they were prisoners.  How could I

 2     have known that?  I only knew that they were being transported from

 3     Zvornik in the direction of Bijeljina.

 4        Q.   Well, this brings one more question from me concerning the

 5     population of Srebrenica, the women, the children, and the elderly; do

 6     you know what happened to them in about the same time-frame?

 7        A.   No, I don't know about that.

 8        Q.   Were you aware at that time that the Zvornik Brigade had sent

 9     buses to Bratunac with respect to the transport of the population there?

10        A.   No, I wasn't aware of any buses from Zvornik Brigade going there

11     and even if we had buses at the time, for that matter, I just simply

12     don't remember.

13        Q.   And sir, later that day - now I bring you back to the time that

14     you saw those buses -- let me take that over again.  What time was it

15     when you saw those buses driving in front of Standard Barracks?

16        A.   I cannot give you the exact hour, it might have been during the

17     morning, 10.00, 11.00, I can't tell you precisely.

18        Q.   And, sir, are you aware that any of these buses stopped or would

19     have stopped at the Standard Barracks that day?

20        A.   I am not aware of that.  I don't remember them stopping.

21        Q.   And did you ever hear any rumors about buses that would have

22     stopped at Standard Barracks on that day?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Now, do you recall having an interview with the Prosecution where

25     you discussed the buses that you saw passing in front of

Page 33976

 1     Standard Barracks?

 2        A.   Yes, I had a conversation.

 3        Q.   Do you recall what time you said that you saw the buses in front

 4     of Standard Barracks?

 5        A.   I don't remember telling them at what time they were passing by

 6     the Standard Barracks.

 7        Q.   And, sir, later that day did anything happen to you in relation

 8     to the people or the -- that were carried in these buses?

 9        A.   On that day, i.e., the 14th of July, somebody - I don't remember

10     who it was - came to my office and said that Chief Obrenovic had ordered

11     that everyone should go to Orahovac to guard the prisoners.  So that was

12     the time when I learned about prisoners being held in Orahovac.  We

13     provided security in order to prevent escalation on the ground because

14     that was a populated area that needed to be secured.

15        Q.   And, sir, do you remember who told you to go to Orahovac?

16        A.   I already said that I don't remember even the face of the person

17     who came to my office and passed on this order to go to Orahovac.

18        Q.   And can you help us in identifying where this order came from?

19        A.   I already said that the order came from Chief Obrenovic.

20        Q.   And do you recall exactly what these words were that were

21     mentioned by the person who told you to go to Orahovac?

22        A.   Chief Obrenovic ordered that everybody, with the exception of the

23     operations duty officer, should go to provide security in Orahovac.

24        Q.   Now, you indicated earlier where was your office on the first

25     floor of the command building and where was the office of the operations

Page 33977

 1     duty officer.  Is it possible that the person who told you to go to

 2     Orahovac was the duty officer Dragan Jokic?

 3        A.   No, it wasn't Dragan Jokic.

 4        Q.   Sir, do you know where Dragan Obrenovic was that day?

 5        A.   No, I don't know where he was exactly.  All I know was -- all I

 6     know is that he was in the zone of responsibility of the brigade.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, did you go to Orahovac on that day, and if so, who went

 8     with you?

 9        A.   Yes, I went to Orahovac on that day; however, I don't remember

10     who went with me to Orahovac.

11        Q.   And can you tell us how you did get to Orahovac.  How did you

12     travel to Orahovac?

13        A.   When I left my office in front of the gates of the barracks, I

14     entered a luxurious passenger car, I don't remember which make it was,

15     and I was driven to Orahovac.

16        Q.   And do you recall anybody else who was in that car with you?

17        A.   Yes, there were some persons with me.  I don't remember how many,

18     possibly two, and I also don't remember who they were, who accompanied me

19     to Orahovac.

20        Q.   Did you have a weapon when you went to Orahovac?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And were you the person responsible for the group of persons who

23     went to Orahovac?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   And can you tell us what time you left Standard Barracks to go to

Page 33978

 1     Orahovac?

 2        A.   It was in the afternoon.  Now, I can't remember when exactly, but

 3     I think it was between 2.00 and 5.00 when I left the barracks and went to

 4     Orahovac.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, as you arrived in Orahovac - and I know this might be

 6     difficult for you - but can you describe the scene as you arrived there?

 7        A.   Upon my arrival at Orahovac, I realised that the situation was

 8     horrendous, and then I realised that I had been duped.  And this happened

 9     in this way, I alighted from the vehicle, and I had the school in my

10     view, or, rather, the school-yard, and I saw a vehicle where the Muslims

11     who were blindfolded were being loaded upon, and after that they were

12     driven from Zvornik towards the wood.

13        Q.   And did you hear any shooting?

14        A.   Whether it was the second batch of people there who were being

15     loaded, at that point I heard shots being fired in front of the vehicle

16     while the loading was going on.  It seems that somebody was shooting at

17     people who were trying to run away; whether there were two or three of

18     them, I couldn't see very good.  I did see one of them falling down, one

19     of these Muslim soldiers.

20        Q.   Let me make my question more precise:  Did you hear shooting

21     coming from the area towards which that vehicle left with the prisoners?

22        A.   At that time, it was already 5.00 or 6.00 or 7.00, there were

23     only intermittent shots being heard in the area where these people had

24     been taken to.

25        Q.   And were you exactly, if I --

Page 33979

 1        A.   I was on the road next to the school building and the yard in

 2     Orahovac.

 3        Q.   And what can you say about the prisoners?  What did you see of

 4     the prisoners?  How many, where, how?  Describe what you could see and

 5     what you knew at the time.

 6        A.   I wasn't able to know what their condition was, because they were

 7     kept prisoner in the school gym.  I saw the vehicle which was parked by

 8     the school, and I saw the ones who were being loaded on to the buses,

 9     blindfolded, and with their hands tied.  This is what I was able to see.

10        Q.   Did you figure out what was happening, sir, at the time?

11        A.   When I got out of the car and saw them being loaded on to the

12     buses with blindfolds, I realised that I had been tricked; and I was

13     trying to devise a way for me to go back to the brigade so as not to be

14     there.

15        Q.   So how long did you stay there and what did you do?

16        A.   I can't give you a precise time; an hour or two.  We were invited

17     for a cup of coffee to a house next to the building where I tried to get

18     hold of a vehicle which would take me to Zvornik.

19        Q.   And what happened?

20        A.   A while later, I don't know exactly how long after, somebody said

21     that a vehicle arrived in front of the house.

22        Q.   And then?

23        A.   As I got out of the house or into the vehicle which had several

24     passenger seats, I remember clearly seeing a child, a tearful child,

25     seated in the vehicle.  We went in the direction of Zvornik, and some 300

Page 33980

 1     or 400 metres later, Soldier Tanic emerged on the road, beckoned to us to

 2     stop, and we gave him a lift to Zvornik.

 3        Q.   What can you tell us about this soldier, the name you use is

 4     Tanic.  Who is he?

 5        A.   Tanic was an individual who worked in the financial section of

 6     the Zvornik Brigade.

 7        Q.   Sir, in Orahovac, did you recognise any of the soldiers present?

 8        A.   No, I didn't.

 9        Q.   Sir, being from the Zvornik Brigade, do you know if these

10     soldiers were from the Zvornik Brigade?

11        A.   I already said that I didn't know the conscripts of the

12     Zvornik Brigade.  I could only recognise them as members of the VRS but

13     could not tell if they were members of the Zvornik Brigade or any other

14     brigade.

15        Q.   Did you notice anything special on the uniform of these soldiers?

16        A.   I don't recall observing anything special.

17        Q.   Did you see any of the soldiers wearing white belts?

18        A.   I don't remember.

19        Q.   Sir, how familiar were you with the members of the military

20     police company of the Zvornik Brigade?

21        A.   I already said that I didn't know anybody by name, and I might

22     recall them by their faces and tell who belonged to the Zvornik Brigade

23     if I saw them again.

24        Q.   Sir, when you arrive in Orahovac, was anyone waiting for you,

25     given that you were told to go there?

Page 33981

 1        A.   I don't know that anybody was expecting me.  When I arrived,

 2     there was nobody there waiting for me to give me any instructions.

 3     Simply, I found myself outside of the school building.

 4        Q.   Were wearing any rank insignia?

 5        A.   No, I did not wear any rank insignia in the army.

 6        Q.   Do you recall seeing anyone there wearing a red beret?

 7        A.   I don't recall seeing anyone with a red beret.

 8        Q.   And did you see or meet the person who was responsible for

 9     directing the activities there at the school?

10        A.   As I've already said, I didn't come across anyone who would have

11     been responsible for something like that in Orahovac.

12        Q.   And did you speak to anyone there?

13        A.   I spoke to those who were present there.  There were several

14     individuals whom I found when I got there and whom I talked to, but I

15     don't recall if they were civilians or soldiers.

16        Q.   Well, talking about civilians, how many did you see and where

17     were they?

18        A.   There were several individuals where I stood.  I can't tell you

19     exactly how many; a group of five to six, I believe.  I can't tell you

20     how many were soldiers and how many civilians among them.

21        Q.   Now, sir, I know that it's difficult, but did you try to

22     intervene while you were there?

23        A.   I was not able to intervene.  I was not allowed to.  Firstly, I

24     didn't know anyone; secondly, had I tried to intervene, I could have

25     ended up faced with the same problem.  I was simply trying to think of a

Page 33982

 1     way to get out of the situation and be away.

 2        Q.   And, sir, had the loading of the prisoners begun when you

 3     arrived?

 4        A.   As soon as I got out of the vehicle, I realised that prisoners

 5     were being loaded on to buses.

 6        Q.   Now, you mention "buses," were they loaded on buses or something

 7     else?

 8        A.   No, I didn't say they were buses.  There was a vehicle with a

 9     tarpaulin.

10        Q.   Now, sir, you mention earlier that you saw a prisoner or maybe

11     you used two or three, I believe, being shot.  How long did that take

12     place after you arrived?

13        A.   I don't think it happened with the first vehicle which was being

14     loaded, I think it happened when they were getting on to the second

15     vehicle.  When exactly, how long after, I can't say.

16        Q.   And, sir, who did you call to get a vehicle to pick you up?

17        A.   I got into a house by the road and I called the operations duty

18     officer to fetch a vehicle which would take me to the brigade.

19        Q.   And do you know who was on duty that afternoon or that evening at

20     the Zvornik Brigade?

21        A.   It was Mr. Dragan Jokic on that day.

22        Q.   And did you speak to Mr. Jokic himself?

23        A.   I don't remember if I talked to him.  I know that I placed a call

24     asking for a vehicle to pick me up.  I don't recall if I spoke to him.

25        Q.   And how long did it take before that vehicle arrived?

Page 33983

 1        A.   As far as I remember, we had a cup of coffee.  It may have taken

 2     an hour for the vehicle to arrive in front of the house.

 3        Q.   And tell us what you were told when the vehicle arrived.

 4        A.   We were told that a vehicle had arrived outside the house.

 5        Q.   Can you describe this vehicle?

 6        A.   I've already said that when I got out of the house I saw the

 7     vehicle parked by the road in front of the house facing Zvornik.  When I

 8     got into the vehicle, I observed that it had several seats, but I don't

 9     recall the make of it.

10        Q.   And, sir, is this the same vehicle in which you travelled to

11     Orahovac earlier that day?

12        A.   I said that I had arrived to Orahovac from Zvornik in a

13     limousine, a passenger car; whereas on my way back it was not a luxury

14     passenger car.  It was a car with multiple passenger seats.

15        Q.   And, sir, had you seen this vehicle before on that day in

16     Orahovac?

17        A.   No, I didn't see a single vehicle in Orahovac on my arrival

18     there.

19        Q.   And throughout the time that you spent there, did you see that

20     specific or that particular vehicle present there at any time?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And do you recall who was in the vehicle; for example, can you

23     identify the driver?

24        A.   No.  I said that I remembered the child who was crying in the

25     vehicle, and another thing that stuck in my memory was Mr. Tadic [as

Page 33984

 1     interpreted] emerging on the road beckoning to us to stop and give him a

 2     lift to Zvornik.  These are the things I remember.

 3        Q.   Sir, the transcript says "Tadic," is it the right name?

 4        A.   Tanic.  Yes, it says -- it's translated as "Tadic," and it should

 5     be "Tanic."

 6        Q.   And did you go straight to Zvornik Brigade?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And what time was it when you are arrived at the brigade?

 9        A.   In the evening hours, as it was getting dark, I didn't pay

10     attention to the time, but around the time when darkness started setting

11     in at that time of year.

12        Q.   And at that time of the year, in 1995, about what time was it

13     getting dark?

14        A.   I think that in our region it's between 10.00 and 11.00.  That

15     could be the reference point.

16        Q.   And what happened when you arrived at the brigade?  Describe what

17     you did.

18        A.   The vehicle we were on did not get into the brigade compound.  It

19     stopped outside of it, and we got out, and I told the driver to take the

20     child to the outpatients clinic or rather to the hospital in Zvornik.

21        Q.   And why did the tell the driver to go to hospital with the child?

22        A.   Well, primarily in view of the fact that it was a child and a

23     civilian, it was the most natural thing for the child to be taken to the

24     town hospital of Zvornik.

25        Q.   And what did you, yourself, did -- what did you do, sorry, at

Page 33985

 1     Standard Barracks?

 2        A.   As I got into the barracks, I don't recall exactly if it was

 3     already 10.00 or 11.00 by that time, I was getting ready for bed.

 4        Q.   Did you have dinner that night?

 5        A.   I don't recall if I had dinner that night at all.

 6        Q.   Did you meet with any other people in your office that night?

 7        A.   There was no get-together that meaning, I don't recall talking to

 8     anyone.

 9        Q.   Sir, do you recall being asked a question by the Prosecution

10     whether there was some kind of a celebration that night?

11        A.   I do, and I told the Prosecution that such a question was absurd,

12     that anything of the sort would cross anyone's mind, that the

13     circumstance would call for any sort of celebration.

14        Q.   Sir, going back quickly to Orahovac, did you see Drago Nikolic

15     there?

16        A.   I didn't see Drago Nikolic there.

17        Q.   And do you know if Drago Nikolic was there in Orahovac on that

18     day?

19        A.   I heard from those who were present there that Drago Nikolic had

20     been there during the day, but I did not learn the time.

21        Q.   And, sir, did you ever hear any rumors of Drago Nikolic being at

22     the place where prisoners were being killed?

23        A.   No, I did not hear such rumors.

24        Q.   Sir, on that day, did you order or make any arrangements for food

25     and drinks to be delivered at Orahovac at any time?

Page 33986

 1        A.   I don't recall giving any such order, and the brigade documents

 2     clearly show if any orders had been issued to make arrangements for food.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon, just to make sure, I have the feeling

 4     you are concluding.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, the questions I have, I need about

 6     10 to 15 minutes.  So we can stop now for a break --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  -- or I can continue for another ten, because we

 9     have only been at 100 -- one hour and 20 minutes so far, according to

10     what I'm told.  As you wish, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you think you will finish in ten minutes' time

12     then I suggest you can continue and finish and then we will have a break

13     to be followed by cross-examination later.

14             Okay.  It seems to be all right.

15             MR. BOURGON:  I might not be able to finish in 10.  Fifteen, yes;

16     but ten, no.  So maybe it's better if we take a break now.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  You will try.

18             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

20             MR. BOURGON:

21        Q.   Sir, your last answer concerning the food or drinks, I would like

22     to know if when you were there in Orahovac whether you saw any food or

23     drinks being delivered to anyone?

24        A.   No, I didn't.

25        Q.   And, sir, given that you were the person responsible for food, as

Page 33987

 1     you said, did Standard Barracks have the possibility to produce fresh

 2     pastries or did it have fruit juices which could be delivered to

 3     Orahovac?

 4        A.   No, we didn't have any such possibilities, either for pastries or

 5     anything else in terms of specific food stuffs.

 6        Q.   Sir, could someone get some fresh fruit juices from the Vitinka

 7     bottling company for example, and take that to Orahovac on behalf of the

 8     brigade?

 9        A.   Receiving any sort of assistance or requests for food or anything

10     else in the Zvornik area, all of it had to go through the brigade.  Since

11     there had been abuse of procedure before, we asked that it strictly be

12     done through the brigade in order for the food to be distributed.  As for

13     juices, nobody ever engaged in distributing juices in the brigade for the

14     brigade's units.

15        Q.   So could it be done that day that someone went to Vitinka to get

16     juices on behalf of the brigade?

17        A.   I am not aware of it.  I don't remember.

18        Q.   Sir, on that day, did you know if prisoners were taken to any

19     other location in the area of Zvornik?

20        A.   I told you that I learned that they were there when I got to

21     Orahovac, but I was not aware of any other possible locations where they

22     have been -- where they might have been taken in Zvornik.

23        Q.   Did you find out such information later?

24        A.   I did.

25        Q.   What did you hear later?

Page 33988

 1        A.   Again, I can't recall how many days later this was, but I heard

 2     that there were other prisoners from Srebrenica in various other

 3     locations as well.

 4        Q.   And, sir, do you ever -- did you ever learn who was responsible

 5     for the killing of the prisoners?

 6        A.   No, I never did.

 7        Q.   And much later did you ever hear any rumors about any agency of

 8     the VRS who was responsible for the killing of prisoners?

 9        A.   There were rumours in Zvornik that it had been done by the

10     security from the top.

11        Q.   And do you remember who said this or who mentioned these rumours?

12        A.   This was off the record.  Nobody officially informed anyone of

13     anything, nor did I personally make any inquiries.

14        Q.   And, sir, do you have any information based on what you saw and

15     what you did in July 1995 from which you could tell that there was any

16     truth in these rumors?

17        A.   As I said, I didn't make any inquiries.  The truth is that what

18     happened happened.

19        Q.   Sir, on a different topic, as assistant commander for logistics,

20     did you have new camouflage uniform and boots in stock?

21        A.   Within the brigade, we had a warehouse where uniform and boots

22     were stored.  We never had a change of new uniforms.  We had the old JNA

23     and M77 uniforms.  We had old boots which had already been mended, et

24     cetera.

25        Q.   Sir, could anyone in 1995 promise to give someone a new uniform

Page 33989

 1     if they did a certain job?

 2        A.   I am not aware of it.  Promises could have been made, but where

 3     uniforms would be got from, I don't know.

 4        Q.   Sir, on a different topic, are you -- do you recall whether the

 5     Zvornik Brigade ever used codes to communicate with its battalions by

 6     military field phone?

 7        A.   I am not aware of it.  I am an economist by profession, and I am

 8     not familiar with these issues.

 9        Q.   Sir, do you know who is Vojo Jekic?

10        A.   I've heard of Vojo Jekic, but I don't know him.

11        Q.   Do you know who is Ratko Vidovic?

12        A.   I know Ratko Vidovic.

13        Q.   Did you ever see him in Standard Barracks?

14        A.   He would come to see the commander in the barracks from time to

15     time.

16        Q.   And do you recall if that was the case in July of 1995?

17        A.   I don't recall him visiting in July.

18        Q.   Sir, the next day on 15 July, do you recall where you were that

19     morning, that's the day after Orahovac?

20        A.   I was probably in my office.

21        Q.   And do you recall, sir, that day having a phone conversation with

22     your commander?

23        A.   I didn't remember it at the time, but from -- I saw it in the

24     operations duty officers' notebook.  Again, I point out that I am not

25     familiar with the AOR of the Zvornik Brigade.  It was Mr. Mijatovic who

Page 33990

 1     was called upon to explain what the situation was in the general area.

 2        Q.   Sir, just a few more questions and we're done.  Do you remember

 3     meeting - -

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sir, I think the record is probably wrong on the

 5     pronunciation of those names.

 6             MR. BOURGON:  Which names are you referring to?

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mijatovic, I think.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I heard it say Mirkovic.

 9             MR. BOURGON:  No, it says Mijatovic.

10        Q.   Did you say, sir, on that day Mr. Mijatovic spoke to the

11     commander?

12        A.   Yes, and here in my interpretation it says "Mijatovic."  Now it

13     says Mirkovic.

14        Q.   Sir, do you recall meeting me in Zvornik at any time?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Do you recall ever meeting with other members of the

17     Nikolic Defence team in Zvornik?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you remember who you met?

20        A.   I met Ms. Jelena and Ms. Nevenka

21        Q.   And did you ever sign a statement at the request of the members

22     of the Nikolic Defence team?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   And did you always respond to the questions which were put to you

25     by the members of the Nikolic Defence team?

Page 33991

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Why not?  How did you feel when you were contacted by members of

 3     the Nikolic Defence team?

 4        A.   When it comes to the issue, I am reluctant to deal with anyone.

 5     I had already given a statement to the Prosecution, and I had given my

 6     statement before the court in Sarajevo.  I felt that there was no need

 7     for me to give any further statements on the issue to anyone.

 8        Q.   Sir, when you provided answers to members of the Nikolic Defence

 9     team, did anyone try to influence you in any way?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   And did members of the Nikolic Defence team tell you that

12     Momir Nikolic testified in this trial?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection, that's -- this could go on, and that's

14     a leading question.  He could go on and tell him --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's conclude here, Mr. Bourgon.

16             MR. BOURGON:  I have three questions, Mr. President --

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, then --

18             MR. BOURGON:  -- I think it's important for him to answer this,

19     Mr. President, to simply to say whether we told him that Nikolic --

20     Momir Nikolic had testified.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please answer the question and let's conclude.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

23             MR. BOURGON:

24        Q.   So what were you told exactly concerning Momir Nikolic?

25        A.   I was told that Mr. Nikolic had visited the Zvornik Brigade on

Page 33992

 1     the evening of the 13th and that he asked for someone to take him to the

 2     IKM.

 3        Q.   And what was your reaction when you were told this information by

 4     the Nikolic Defence team?

 5        A.   I repeated what I said here.  I said that I met Mr. Momir Nikolic

 6     for the first time in Bratunac in the company he was working for.

 7        Q.   And, sir, one last question I would like to ask you is simply:

 8     Looking back at those events of July of 1995, how do you feel today about

 9     those events?

10        A.   I do not feel comfortable at all.  It is very hard for me, and I

11     have to say that I am very sorry for everything that happened, especially

12     for the victims.  And I'm very sorry that it happened in the AOR of the

13     Zvornik Brigade.

14        Q.   And maybe one last question I forgot:  Why did you refuse to come

15     here when you received the first subpoena?

16        A.   The summons said that I should come and appear before the Court

17     of my free will, and I refused to do so since, as I already said, I had

18     given my statement to The Hague investigators.  That was the reason why I

19     did not respond to the first summons.

20        Q.   And further to what the Presiding Judge told you at the

21     beginning, is there anything that you want to say in this regard?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  I have no further questions.

24             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's have the break, and it will be a strict 20

Page 33993

 1     minute break now.  Thank you.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Recess taken at 4.03 p.m.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just to make sure, does any of the other Defence

 7     teams wish to cross-examine this witness?

 8             Mr. Haynes.

 9             MR. HAYNES:  I think I am going to reserve my position on that.

10     Things went rather beyond the evidence of Momir Nikolic during the

11     examination-in-chief, but at the moment, no.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

13             Mr. McCloskey.

14             Sorry, Mr. Zivanovic.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I wouldn't cross-examine the witness also, but

18     unless such a need does arise from the cross-examination of the

19     Prosecution.  In that case, I would ask the permission of the

20     Trial Chamber.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, you can all ask, of course, but you know what

22     we had decided time back that Defence teams go first on cross-examination

23     followed by the Prosecution.  So that has to be bourne in mind.

24             Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 33994

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 2        Q.   Mr. Milosevic, I -- do you remember us talking in that interview

 3     back in January of 2006, you and I?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So on 14 July you, as assistant commander for logistics of

 6     the Zvornik Brigade, were at the Orahovac school.  Was there any officer

 7     superior to you there?

 8        A.   I said it then and I am saying it now, again, I didn't come

 9     across anyone at that particular location who had a higher rank.

10        Q.   So as assistant commander, you were the highest-ranking, most

11     authoritative person there when that process was going on?

12        A.   I wouldn't know about that, whether my rank was the highest.

13        Q.   Well, as far as you knew?

14        A.   What I know is that I was there at that time, and during that

15     time I didn't see anyone with a higher rank.

16        Q.   So as far as you knew, you were the one that was responsible and

17     the most responsible military position with the duties incumbent upon you

18     under the Geneva Conventions?

19        A.   I didn't have any responsibility or duty at that location, except

20     for an order that I received from the barracks to come and provide

21     security.  I considered myself at that point in time to be a physical

22     entity providing security.

23        Q.   You didn't feel you had any responsibility whatsoever to do

24     anything to protect any of those Muslims?

25        A.   I am sorry that this happened, but I had no capability of doing

Page 33995

 1     anything there.

 2        Q.   Did you issue any orders?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did you seek out the commander in charge?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   You say you went and had coffee for an hour, two hours, until

 7     dark.  Sir --

 8        A.   I said I went to have coffee in the house that was situated

 9     opposite the school.

10        Q.   While this was going on, you went to have coffee to let all this

11     dirty work be done by somebody else?

12        A.   I had be invited for coffee to that house.  I don't remember

13     having one, and I didn't allow, nor was I in charge of anything that was

14     going on in Orahovac.

15        Q.   What was going on when you got there?

16        A.   When I arrived in the car to Orahovac, I got out of the car on

17     the road in front of the school, and I stood by the fence.  I saw

18     prisoners being loaded into a vehicle with their eyes covered with

19     blindfold.

20        Q.   So what did you think was going to happen to them?

21        A.   It crossed my mind that they were going to be shot dead, and that

22     is what actually happened, and then I realised that I had been deceived.

23        Q.   Why did it cross your mind that these people were going to be

24     shot dead?

25        A.   When you load people, blindfolded people, and when you drive them

Page 33996

 1     into the woods, from the school into the woods, I couldn't imagine

 2     anything else happening.

 3        Q.   You knew before you got there that they were going to be

 4     executed, didn't you?

 5        A.   No, I didn't know that, because if I had known that, I wouldn't

 6     have come to Orahovac.

 7        Q.   All right.  Maybe we will come back to Orahovac.

 8             In the interview that we had in January of 2006, I asked you on

 9     page 7 after you had mentioned you were chief of logistics, or assistant

10     commander, excuse me, for logistics, and I said:

11             "And who did you have directly under you?"

12             And you said:

13             "We had chiefs of services, chief of procurement, chief of

14     warehouse, chief of traffic service, and chief of technical service."

15             Then I ask you to name those people.  And the first person you

16     name was a Mr. Krstic.  What was his job?

17        A.   Mr. Krstic was chief of the technical service.

18        Q.   And then you said the chief of the warehouse was a guy named

19     Bosko.  What was Bosko's last name?

20        A.   Bosko Nikolic, was in charge of quartermaster.  That's what I

21     said.

22        Q.   And who is the chief of traffic?

23        A.   Chief of the traffic service was Mr. Pantic.

24        Q.   And at the time you told me, "I cannot remember the chief of

25     traffic."  So why do you remember now?

Page 33997

 1        A.   At the time when I was giving you these answers, I couldn't

 2     remember.  Now, after some time elapsed, I made some statements in the

 3     meantime, and you also refreshed my memory, and so I remembered that his

 4     name was Pantic.

 5        Q.   We've heard in this case that Mr. Pantic from Standard sent, on

 6     the 15th of July, three cases of ammunition, 7.62, to the Rocevic school

 7     that were taken to the execution site at Kozluk.  Mr. Pantic was under

 8     your direction, surely you recall that?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go to P04600, I won't spend too much

12     time on this particular document.

13        Q.   You can take a look at this document on the screen, and you'll

14     see that it's dated 17 July 1995.  We've got this from the Zvornik

15     Brigade.  The name of the sender was Vezionica, what's Vezionica?

16        A.   Vezionica was a building next to the barracks.  It was a sewing

17     and embroidery plant.

18        Q.   Yes, and we can see from this document that this is the --

19     camouflage uniforms were supplied, 19 uniforms were for special purposes.

20     So it looks like we had 19 nice new uniforms coming into the Zvornik

21     Brigade on 17 July, and your name is on the bottom of it.

22             So do you want to think back and maybe change your testimony a

23     little bit on that new uniforms business?

24        A.   No, this does look familiar to me.  I don't remember this

25     particular sheet at all.

Page 33998

 1        Q.   Let's take a look at the signature.  I'll give you the original.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can you blow that up.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

 4             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd just like if my

 5     colleague could tell us, because I can't see with the document I have,

 6     where it says "new uniform" in this document.  I don't see the word "new"

 7     anywhere.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That was my question.  Maybe this fabric place

 9     cranks out old uniforms.

10             MR. BOURGON:  The witness had already provided information about

11     uniforms.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  You're -- stop, stop.

13             MR. BOURGON:  If he wants to make a suggestion he should suggest

14     new uniforms.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop, stop, please.  When I intervene, we

16     intervene very, very, little, but when we do, please stick to the rules.

17             Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Sir, take your glasses out and take a look at the stamp on the

20     original.  Our translation people have put S. Milosevic as what they see

21     there.  Is that your signature?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you have anything that you want to say about this?

24        A.   I don't remember this document at all.

25        Q.   So these uniforms could have gone to Drago Nikolic and you

Page 33999

 1     wouldn't have -- probably wouldn't remember that either; correct?

 2        A.   I can't see from this document where these uniforms were meant to

 3     be going.  This deals with the receipt of the uniforms by the brigade.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5        A.   Or, rather, there is not even a signature of the person who was

 6     the recipient except for the box 42 where we have the signature of the

 7     man who entered this document into books, into the register.

 8        Q.   This is about 19 new uniforms, isn't it?

 9        A.   It says here:  "Camouflage uniforms," and mark, and then there is

10     a remark about the purpose, but why the person in charge did not sign the

11     receipt of these uniforms.  You can see my signature, you can see the

12     signature of the man who entered this in the register, but also missing

13     is the signature by someone from the professional service.

14        Q.   What professional service would that be?

15        A.   It's mentioned here Mr. Nikolic, but there is no signature

16     attached to it.

17        Q.   Well, let be clear.  You're talking about 2nd Lieutenant

18     B. Nikolic; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And that's Bosko Nikolic, the fellah you just mentioned?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to another document, P04538.

23        Q.   I just will indulge you for a moment to see if you can help me

24     with an issue that came up with another witness, and it's about, I'm sure

25     everyone remembers, forms from the Zvornik Brigade.

Page 34000

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could --

 2        Q.   If I could just show you, and I will give you the photocopies of

 3     the forms.  If you could just take a look at this -- at this document,

 4     and it's making a reference to forms.  And I'll try to give you the

 5     original -- actually, I'm not sure we need to worry about the original.

 6             Here is P00354.  Is that one of the forms noted in this

 7     particular report?  This is a document that makes reference to two

 8     specific forms.  Is that one form I gave you one of the forms that it's

 9     referred to?  Obviously not the telegrams, I am not talking about

10     telegrams.  I am talking about the attendance roster or the record of the

11     engagement.

12        A.   What is your question?

13        Q.   Is the form that's referred to in the short July 6th note

14     referring to the big form that I gave you that's in your hands?  Not that

15     form in particular, but is it the same form?

16        A.   The question is unclear.

17        Q.   Is the form you have in front of you now the forms that were

18     typically used at the time by the Zvornik Brigade?

19        A.   Yes, in each unit.

20        Q.   And is that form either an attendance roster or a record of

21     engagement form, that's in front of you right now?

22        A.   Yes, yes.  That's what it says, the engagement record of the

23     company.

24        Q.   Okay.  That's all -- that's all I was asking about.

25             Now, you can give that back to me so it's not -- or give that

Page 34001

 1     back to us so it's not a distraction.  You may remember when we were

 2     talking a while back during your interview I asked you on page 12:

 3             "When did you start equipping the unit to be able to move to

 4     Srebrenica?"

 5             And you said:

 6             "I don't remember that there was a concrete equipping, that I was

 7     equipping unit by unit."

 8             And then I ask you again on page 13:

 9             "Do you have any knowledge at all of the preparations of men and

10     materiels to go down to Srebrenica from Zvornik?"

11             And you said:

12             "No, I don't."

13             And having thought about that question, do you want to change

14     your answer today?  Let me ask it to you again:  What equipment were you

15     involved in helping get the troops ready that went down to Srebrenica in

16     early July 1995?

17        A.   You mean departure for Srebrenica?  Because the translation I

18     received was the departure of men from Srebrenica.

19        Q.   I meant for Srebrenica.  Do you wish to change what you told me,

20     or do you stand by it?

21        A.   I stand by my previous answer because I said there was no

22     particular equipping of units because there was no specific task given to

23     the logistics service in terms of what should be specifically provided

24     for anyone for this mission.  There might be record of that, somebody

25     might look into it, but I personally don't remember.

Page 34002

 1        Q.   Well, let's take a look.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  P04602.

 3        Q.   And I'll remind you that you didn't tell me back in 2006 that you

 4     didn't remember, you said that there wasn't any.  And so let's look at a

 5     document, you'll see it up on the screen.  It's dated 2 July, Military

 6     Post 7469, Zvornik, request to the Drina Corps command, and let me give

 7     you a copy so you can see the whole thing because it's not on the screen,

 8     and the screen, you won't be able to read it if we get any smaller.

 9     Thank you.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  In the record, page 49,

11     line 17, the interpreter said there was no specific task given to the

12     logistics service, and the record doesn't reflect that.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said before, and I'm telling

14     you again, I don't remember this document.  Now I see it and I have been

15     questioned about the events and the equipping of units for Srebrenica.  I

16     honestly didn't know the date.  I did sign this request, but I could not

17     remember it then, nor would I have been able to remember it now had you

18     not shown it to me.  I don't know any specific or special activities

19     being pursued in the brigade at the time.  This might have been for the

20     needs of the units that was being equipped prior to going to Srebrenica.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   Well, you can read it like we all can.  It says for the

23     forthcoming operations, and we know when they went down.  Do you really

24     want to suggest this is all a question of memory, sir?  At the time when

25     I asked you this question you couldn't remember that you gave blankets

Page 34003

 1     and mess kits and stretchers to the troops that were going down to a

 2     major battle-front.  Why don't you just cut to the chase and tell us you

 3     lied to me at the time, make it easy.

 4        A.   No, I didn't lie at the time.  It's not true that I knew that and

 5     that I didn't want to say that, because there is no reason for that.  I

 6     really would like to ask this question whether we actually received all

 7     these items that had been requested.

 8        Q.   So is that your signature at the bottom of this?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So I think you're in the best position to answer that question.

11             All right.  Let's go to another document.  I want to go with you

12     now to the duty officer notebook that you've talked about a bit, it's

13     P00377.  And I'll give you the book so you can actually see the original,

14     and it's meant to start at ERN last four digits 5738.  For the record,

15     it's -- to help with the English.  But if you can open it up, sir, to

16     that -- what's been marked in page 120 in English.  There should be a red

17     sticker.  I think you're looking at it.

18             And it starts out with breakfast for 80 military conscripts, and

19     please take a moment to study it.

20        A.   Yes, it says, "Breakfast for 8 [as interpreted] military

21     conscripts.  Major Obrenovic."

22        Q.   And this note, under that, "Kaldrmica Kasaba several thousand

23     going towards Tuzla," and it says "to Cerska."  That's circled.  Is that

24     what you were telling Mr. Bourgon about, that you had received

25     information that there were several thousand Muslims going towards Tuzla

Page 34004

 1     and towards Cerska the morning of 13 July?

 2        A.   This has been entered in the book on the 13th to the effect that

 3     several thousand were moving towards Tuzla.  This is the record of the

 4     information that we see here.

 5        Q.   And that's your handwriting?  You wrote that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And who did you receive that information from?

 8        A.   I don't remember who the information came from because there is

 9     no record of it.

10        Q.   The Drina Corps duty officer, perhaps?  Bratunac Brigade duty

11     officer, ring any bells?

12        A.   I don't recall.

13        Q.   And is all the handwriting on that page yours?

14        A.   No, it isn't.  This portion written in Cyrillic, that's not my

15     handwriting.

16        Q.   And which portion is written in Cyrillic, what does it say?

17        A.   It says:  "Vera [phoen] from Bijeljina called, Rada called, then

18     lieutenant-colonel ..."

19        Q.   Okay.  So we are talking right at the bottom of the page?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   How about the next page.  If we go over to the next page, it's --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon.

23             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Before we move to the

24     next page, my colleague mentioned, and that is on the transcript, page

25     51, and that was lines 17 to 20, and I need to bring it back.  He said:

Page 34005

 1             "Is that what you were telling Mr. Bourgon, that you received

 2     information that there were several thousand Muslims going towards Tuzla

 3     and towards Cerska ..."

 4             That witness never said that to me, so at least if my colleague

 5     is going to ask a question, if he wants to quote my question, he should

 6     quote my question and the answers of the witness, but not to say

 7     something that the witness never mentioned.

 8             Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Do you wish to comment, Mr. McCloskey?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's how I remembered it.  The witness agreed

11     with me.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's move.  The witness has heard the

13     exchange anyway.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing controversial about it that I can think

15     of.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  You've made your point.  That's what is being put

17     to the witness and who is perfectly capable of agreeing with you if he so

18     wishes, and move on.

19             Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   Okay.  So let's go to the next page in the book, and that's ERN,

22     last four digits, 5739, and it's 121 in the B/C/S and English for the

23     computer.

24             And, sir, I'm not so interested in the substance of this writing.

25     I am not going to ask you about anything about what's said, but can you

Page 34006

 1     tell me:  Is this all your handwriting on this page?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   Okay.  So who do you think stood in for you and wrote in Cyrillic

 4     between these two sections of your handwriting?

 5        A.   I don't remember who that might have been, but I know it wasn't

 6     me.

 7        Q.   And you can't tell how long you were out of the post from this

 8     either, can you?

 9        A.   No, I can't.

10        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next page, 122.  It's ERN 5740.

11             And again, sir, if you could -- is that all your handwriting?

12        A.   Yes, I wrote it.

13        Q.   And could you read that part for us, we see it in English, it

14     says "bulldozer," what's it say besides "bulldozer"?

15        A.   Maybe we are not on the same page, which page is that?  I can't

16     find that word on this page.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you help him, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   It's sitting right there in the middle of the page.  Just take

20     your time.  I know you're -- it says -- sorry, it says "dozer" in B/C/S

21     and got translated as "bulldozer" in English.

22        A.   I did write it but this word, "dozer" doesn't ring any bells.  I

23     don't remember this.

24        Q.   Well, what is a dozer?

25        A.   I don't know.  I don't know what dozer is.

Page 34007

 1        Q.   Isn't a dozer a bulldozer, an earth moving machine?  You're a

 2     logistics guy, you've got to know what a dozer is.

 3        A.   I am not quite clear on that, if dozer and bulldozer are one and

 4     the same thing, terminology wise.

 5        Q.   What's Birac Holding?

 6        A.   It's the aluminium plant.

 7        Q.   Did they have dozers?

 8        A.   I am not aware of it.

 9        Q.   The Glinica plant, the huge aluminium processing plant.  Every

10     time I've driven by there there's been more equipment around.  Come on,

11     you've got to remember the heavy equipment at that place.

12        A.   I don't know what these various machines are called.  I am not a

13     civil engineer.  I am not a civil engineer.  I have a degree in

14     economics.  I don't know the various terms for machinery still today.

15        Q.   Do you remember that phone number, 584-700?  Do you remember

16     Ziko?

17        A.   I see the entry with the number and the name Ziko, but neither

18     the telephone number nor the name mean anything to me.

19        Q.   What's it say after Ziko, if you can make it out?  You wrote it.

20        A.   It says "- auto machine."

21        Q.   And you wrote the word "dozer," that's your handwriting?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's now go briefly to Exhibit P04614.  This is

24     a -- it's in Cyrillic, and I don't have a translation at the moment.  Let

25     me -- it's a two-page document, so it will be easier to give you one.

Page 34008

 1        Q.   Pardon the handwriting, the handwriting, sir, that's on this is

 2     just our English translation, and perhaps we can put that on the -- well,

 3     it's simple enough.

 4             Can you go to the second page -- well, the first page says:

 5             "Telephone book of the 1st Infantry Zvornik Brigade command and

 6     units."

 7             And we go down the page, on the first page it says:  "Important

 8     numbers in the VRS," then it goes, "Extensions," and the next page in the

 9     B/C/S, "Companies and institutions."

10             And in the second column we see under the phone number 584-700

11     "Birac Holding."  So does that help you at all, sir?

12             You've written down "dozer" and the phone number for Birac

13     Holding and the name Ziko.  I'm sure you had contacts at Birac Holding.

14        A.   I repeat, neither the number nor the name of the person ring any

15     bells.  If you ask me a day later, perhaps I'd know as it is.  I don't

16     know anything about it, nor did I ever contact Ziko for any sort of

17     cooperation.

18        Q.   If your commander got you on the line and said, Captain, I need

19     an excavator to improve a trench and a break in the line.  Jokic tells me

20     all his are in use.  Get me an excavator now.  And Pandurevic says that

21     to you.  What do you do?

22        A.   But he didn't give me a call to that effect, and I don't remember

23     these details.  Had the commander called, I would have written in the

24     entry, Commander's call, do this and that.  The entry would state that.

25        Q.   Well, we don't want to suggest that Pandurevic is calling you

Page 34009

 1     from where he is.  Let's say it's Dragan Obrenovic that's calling you.

 2     But just as a hypothetical, the person in charge, in command, tells you

 3     to get them an excavator.  Couldn't you call Birac Holding and arrange to

 4     borrow one of their excavators?

 5        A.   I could not have been given the order because I didn't know where

 6     the sort of machinery could be obtained from.

 7        Q.   All right.  I think that will wrap up that page.  Let's go to the

 8     next page, 5741 of 377.  And we're now at 123.  Sorry, we took the book

 9     away from you.  Hopefully we've opened it at the right page.  I'll try

10     not to let that happen again.

11             Now, you're looking at that page where at the top it says, "Take

12     all measures to avoid surprises."  Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, is all the handwriting on that page yours?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's turn the page and go next in order.  So it's 124.

17     And you'll see in the top of the page it says:  "Vukotic and Petkovic."

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, where does your handwriting stop on this page?

20        A.   From the point where another pen is used, below Lovac 1 and

21     Lovac 2.

22        Q.   Okay.  And then if you could, just for one second, turn the page

23     to 5743, you'll see that your handwriting starts up again, maybe a

24     quarter of the way down the page.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 34010

 1        Q.   Okay.  So let's go back to where we were, 5742, that page that

 2     begins "Vukotic and Petkovic."

 3             Now, these entries of somebody else's hand, whose hand is that?

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5        Q.   What time of day could that have happened -- did that occur?

 6        A.   It may have been the assistant duty officer who wrote this, but I

 7     don't know what time of day it was.

 8        Q.   So this could have been the time of day that somebody like

 9     Momir Nikolic came by when you weren't around; right?

10        A.   I don't know about that.

11        Q.   Well, isn't it possible that Momir Nikolic came around the time

12     that you were off for whatever reason?

13        A.   I repeat, I don't know anything about it.

14        Q.   Well, how about Colonel Beara?  We see him mentioned here.  Did

15     you see him around the Zvornik Brigade any time on these days, the 13th,

16     14th, 15th, 16th?

17        A.   I don't remember meeting Mr. Beara at all.

18        Q.   And you don't remember meeting or seeing Mr. Vujadin Popovic

19     either, do you?

20        A.   No, no.  I don't remember him either.

21        Q.   And you don't remember seeing or meeting Drago Nikolic on these

22     days either?

23        A.   I said that that was the case.  I didn't see Drago Nikolic

24     either.

25        Q.   And you didn't see Vinko Pandurevic when he came back on the 15th

Page 34011

 1     and went to the headquarters even though you were at the headquarters at

 2     the same time; right?  You didn't see him either?

 3        A.   That too, I said, that I didn't see him when he came to the

 4     command.

 5        Q.   Well, let me ask you about this reference.  You would have, of

 6     course, reviewed the duty officer notebook when you got back to see what

 7     had happened in your absence; correct?

 8        A.   I probably cast a glance.  I don't remember.  I also don't

 9     remember if I took any steps because from what the entry said, I didn't

10     feel that there was any need to react.

11        Q.   Well, let's see what this says.  The part I'm interested in is at

12     the bottom of the page and it says:

13             "President of the municipality, Mitrovic, called and asked that

14     the flatbed trailer (Colonel Beara)" and then crossed out, "be sent to

15     Bratunac to bring a bulldozer 1.000.  Colonel Beara passed on the

16     message."

17             Can you tell us what that means, "Colonel Beara passed on the

18     message"?

19        A.   It's what the text says.  What it means ...

20        Q.   Well, just explain to me what the text says.

21        A.   I can read what the text says.

22        Q.   Well, explain to me what that means.

23        A.   I can't make an inference on the basis of what it says.  It says

24     that Mr. Stevo Kostic should get in touch with Aco -- or, rather,

25     president of the Mitrovica municipality asked for at a trailer truck to

Page 34012

 1     be towed to Bratunac, that bulldozer 1.000 should be sent, received by

 2     Colonel Beara --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Conveyed by

 4     Colonel Beara.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Now, was this message about the bulldozer conveyed by

 7     Colonel Beara or conveyed to Colonel Beara?

 8        A.   It says conveyed by Colonel Beara.

 9        Q.   And who did he convey the message to?  Who did Beara convey the

10     message to?

11        A.   It says "President of the Mitrovic municipality called that a

12     trailer truck be sent to Bratunac in order to transport a bulldozer,

13     conveyed by Colonel Beara."

14        Q.   Is that the same bulldozer -- any relationship to the dozer that

15     you had written about earlier?

16        A.   I don't know about it.

17        Q.   Now, you had something called a delivery book, didn't you?  I'll

18     show you the original.  I don't know if you -- you remember this red

19     book?

20        A.   Not before I look at the contents.

21        Q.   This red book, just looking at it now, doesn't ring any bells at

22     all?

23        A.   No, no.

24        Q.   Okay.  I'm handing that to you.  That's P289.  You want to look

25     in it and see if it refreshes your recollection at all?  Just -- the

Page 34013

 1     front of it has been translated in English for people, it's "Delivery

 2     Book Kp-6."

 3             You were talking in your testimony earlier that there should be

 4     records of deliveries to Orahovac.  Wouldn't this book be a possible

 5     source of reflecting those records?

 6        A.   I don't know if it's reflected in this book, but I said that

 7     there was documentation, not a book but sheets of delivery which can be

 8     found in the bookkeeping records.

 9        Q.   So what is this book?

10        A.   This book contains records of certain destinations to which

11     transportation was effected -- of bread or rationed food or -- I don't

12     know.  At any rate, the authenticity or, rather, the authentic records of

13     everything that was issued from warehouses in terms of food, equipment,

14     and the rest, are the -- are sheets that I referred to, the documents.

15     This is an auxiliary tool used by the logistics sector to record

16     shipments effected at certain periods of time.

17        Q.   Shipments of food and other things like you've just mentioned.

18        A.   Yes, it says bread, rations, and what else.

19        Q.   For soldiers?

20        A.   I can't tell you before I have a look at this.

21             This is the first time I'm leafing through this book, and it's

22     very difficult for me to tell you what it is that the records refer to.

23        Q.   So you were the assistant commander for logistics.  You've just

24     said that this was a Zvornik Brigade logistics record.  There is no

25     mystery to it.  You recognise what is going on with this book.  Materiels

Page 34014

 1     were getting sent out to various places, to various people, bread is

 2     going to soldiers; right?

 3        A.   Yes, the records reflect what happened on whose behalf.

 4        Q.   Okay.  This is very simple and we won't spend much time with it.

 5     I just want you to go to a particular page.  It should be marked there

 6     with one of those little yellow sticky things on the side, you see on the

 7     side.  It's P00289, and B/C/S, 116; English, page 8.  And the ERN is

 8     0114-8797.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could blow that up.  It's that left top

10     side of the page.  We can see that on the top of the page it's

11     handwritten 13 July 1995, Thursday.

12        Q.   And then as we go down, it has 1600, 1400.  And then what is the

13     next time under 1400 Petkovci?  What time is that for Orahovac?  Sir, can

14     you just read the numbers?  You're used to reading those numbers.

15        A.   I think that what it says is 0100 Orahovac, but I can't decipher

16     it.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, that's what I think it says, too.  0100 hours,

18     Orahovac.  And then it says "police"; right?  It's really short, very

19     simple.  It says, "0100 hours Orahovac - police."

20        A.   I don't know why it is that you're asking me this.  At 1.00 on

21     the 13th, I was resting.  If you hadn't read out this word "police," I

22     would not have been able to decipher it.  But now that you told me, I can

23     confirm yes, it says "police."

24        Q.   Okay, well, perhaps this refreshes your recollection.  On the

25     evening hours of 13 July, several bus loads of Muslim prisoners came to

Page 34015

 1     the Orahovac school.  We have a Muslim that survived the execution that

 2     has told us that, and there has been one, two, I think two MPs from the

 3     Zvornik Brigade that say that they were there that night.  And if there

 4     is Zvornik MPs at the school in Orahovac that night, this is a -- this is

 5     a record of them being taken some sort of supplies; isn't it?  You're the

 6     duty officer.  You're the logistics guy.  This is duty officer,

 7     logistics, Orahovac, it's all coming together for you.

 8        A.   I didn't know of any events in Orahovac until my arrival there in

 9     the afternoon hours of the 14th.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to another document, P00290.  And I will give you

11     a photocopy of this.  I think I've got the original, but I think the

12     photocopy will work.

13             Now, this is another one of these documents we dug up out of the

14     Zvornik Brigade collection, and we'll give you the original just so you

15     can check the signature and the stamp.  Take your time to take a look at

16     it.  What is this?

17        A.   It's the municipality of Zvornik taking fuel in the warehouse of

18     the Zvornik Brigade.

19        Q.   You mean the municipality giving fuel to the Zvornik Brigade?

20        A.   Since in certain cases we didn't have enough fuel, it was

21     necessary to engage the services of the municipality to get the required

22     quantities.  Sometimes we would not receive sufficient quantities of

23     fuels on request of the Drina Corps, and then we were forced to turn to

24     the municipality to provide fuel necessary for the brigade to be

25     operational.

Page 34016

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Page 223 in the B/C/S, sorry.  Sorry, if we could

 2     just get the number sorted out.  We're almost done with the last exhibit

 3     or two.  We'll just get that on the screen.

 4        Q.   Take your time and look at it.  Page 223.  That's the B/C/S.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No it's not.  Sorry, 222.  We're almost there.

 6     That's it.  If we could have the English up as well -- sorry.  Let me put

 7     the English, I apologise, somehow we missed in English.  If we could get

 8     that on the ELMO.

 9        Q.   What can you tell us about this, sir?  We can see under the

10     remarks, can you read the remarks slowly so we can try to translate it?

11        A.   This is the delivery sheet relating to the receipt of items which

12     records the receipt of fuel at the petrol pump in Karakaj, and the fuel

13     arrived -- or, rather, was supplied by Zvornik municipality.

14        Q.   I understand that.  Can you read what's in the middle of the

15     page, it starts with "Remark ..."

16        A.   It says 1.748 litres of D2 were put into the petrol pump tank.

17     200 litres were given for the motor vehicle, registration plate number

18     ZV 33426, that is transporting -- and 52 litres water extraction.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are not sure what this means.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   Okay.  On the 13th and the 14th and the 15th and the 16th of

22     July, there were a lot of vehicles taking thousands of Muslims from

23     schools to execution sites, buses, TAM trucks, where did the fuel come

24     from for that?

25        A.   According to what was found out later, the fuel for these

Page 34017

 1     purposes was provided by the corps.  Now I remember this document and

 2     that fuel was received from the municipality.  Because the situation with

 3     the fuel in the Zvornik Brigade was, on many occasions, at the minimum

 4     level and quite often we didn't have enough supplies for our regular

 5     duties.

 6        Q.   How, do you know the fuel for the operation to execute the

 7     Muslims prisoners was provided by the corps?

 8        A.   I didn't say that they provided fuel for execution.  I only said

 9     that in emergency situations requests were made to the corps to provide

10     fuel, but there was no was no request from our brigade of that nature

11     forwarded either to the municipality or to the corps, as far as I know

12     and as far as I can remember.  So for these specific purposes, there was

13     no request sent by the Zvornik Brigade to any quarters for these specific

14     purposes.

15        Q.   And you said as far as you can remember, so you might have

16     forgot?

17        A.   Well, one can check that from the documents, whether there are

18     any request existed and for what purposes the request was made.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P00291.

20        Q.   This is a document you have seen before.  I think you and I went

21     over it.  I'll give you a hard copy to -- well, I'll give you an

22     original.  Take a look at this.  We've talked about this before; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Let me just ask you a few questions.  We see it's in the

25     left-hand dated the 16th of July, and under the name and the address of

Page 34018

 1     recipient it says KDK, that should be command Drina Corps, I think, not

 2     commander.  The addressee station for Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic.

 3        A.   In the corps.

 4        Q.   Well, you knew what Popovic's job -- Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic's

 5     job was in July of 1995, didn't you?

 6        A.   I don't know what Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic's job was.

 7        Q.   Do you know who he was?

 8        A.   I know that he was with the corps security.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, what I'm interested in is as we go down we see that

10     this is diesel fuel, D2.  And it says:

11             "PG is issued according to the order of Captain S. Milosevic.

12     Out of 500 litres of D2, 140 litres were returned."

13             And then we see a signature of somebody.

14             So this says you issued an order.  Tell us about that order.

15        A.   I already told you that this is an incorrect document as far as I

16     can see.  It is impossible to use the same sheet in order to receive and

17     issue fuel.  That is incorrect procedure.

18        Q.   Well, we are not really concerned about whether it's incorrect or

19     not, but that's -- I appreciate that, I can tell you that according to --

20     this fuel got where it was going to.  So tell us about the order you

21     issued.  And I'm just reading what it says, what order did you issue?

22        A.   I'm trying to read what is written here, and it says here that

23     fuel should be issued to the Drina Corps command that will be taken over

24     by Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic at the station.

25        Q.   Right.  We see that.  But go down further.  Go down to the

Page 34019

 1     handwritten remarks where it starts talking about diesel fuel.  We can

 2     all see it in the original language.  It says you issued a -- you issued

 3     the order.

 4        A.   I don't remember that it was possible for me to issue this kind

 5     of order since I signed this on the 17th of July, not on the 16th of

 6     July.

 7        Q.   Well, the fuel we know went out on the 16th, and this document

 8     says it went out under your order.  Now, Captain, I am not thinking

 9     you're the guy that's running the show here, but who did you get your

10     order from.  When you are dispensing fuel, who do you normally get your

11     order from?

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we have a reference where this guy said that

14     it was dispatched under the order of this witness?

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I'm --

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm reading the English translation, "PG," which

17     stands for fuel, "is issued according to the order of

18     Captain S. Milosevic."

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but okay -- I can see it in English.  All

20     right.  You should be able to see it now.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It was said that some guy said it, as far as I

22     see the ...

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  What I mean is you can see it on the monitor now.

24     It's the third line in the body of the document.  There.  That's it.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Okay.

Page 34020

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   So, sir, I am not saying that you were the originator of this

 4     business.  Who did you receive your order to dispense this fuel?  Who

 5     gave you your order?

 6        A.   I don't remember who gave this order.  All I know is that we

 7     didn't have enough fuel.  I mentioned that several times.  And therefore

 8     this shows that we issued this fuel and that a certain amount of the fuel

 9     had to be returned to the brigade.  I can only assume that it came from

10     the Drina Corps command.

11        Q.   Whose signature is that that we see there right under the word --

12     well, it looks like it's right under the number 500?

13        A.   I don't recognise this signature under the number 500.

14        Q.   So tell us what you remember about this order and this fuel?

15        A.   As I said, the Zvornik Brigade had only its fuel levels at the

16     minimum, and then came an order from the corps command for us to --

17     actually, for the fuel to be issued to us and that we shall be

18     recompensed for this fuel.

19        Q.   And the fuel went to Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic; correct?

20        A.   At that point in time, it wasn't clear to me where Mr. Popovic

21     was.  I just saw his name there.

22        Q.   But this fuel, according to this document, went to

23     Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic?

24        A.   I don't deny that, that it went to Popovic, but I am not aware of

25     that.

Page 34021

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey, how much more time do you need?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ten or 15 minutes.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  My suggestion is that with the okay of those who

 4     are working harder than we are, we continue and finish soon after the

 5     cross-examination unless there are further questions -- yes, Mr. Bourgon.

 6             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, I have quite a bit of a re-examine.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Really?  We will come tomorrow as well.  Let's

 8     continue.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   Sir, I am sure you remember all the fuel that was needed to bury

12     those thousands of people up in the Branjevo-Pilica area on the 17th of

13     July, don't you?

14        A.   I know nothing about these activities.  I know that Muslims were

15     executed, but I don't know anything about the needs or the supplies of

16     fuel.

17        Q.   And did you know Popovic was in the area of Zvornik at the time?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   And you had no idea about Pilica, I take it, that its fuel went

20     to Pilica?

21        A.   No.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P0041.

23        Q.   And I'll give you a version of that as well.

24             Sir, what happened to those thousands of Muslims that were buried

25     near the schools in the Zvornik area?  Did they get dug up and moved?

Page 34022

 1        A.   I heard stories that bodies were moved from one location to

 2     another, but I don't know where they were moved.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's have a 15 minute break now.

 4     Thank you.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.51 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8                           --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Sir, we had left off you were looking at the document dated 14

12     September, and I was asking about what you knew about the reburial of

13     thousands of Muslim men.  What's this -- we see this in this document

14     P0041 that it provides 5 tonnes of diesel fuel.  It's from the logistic

15     sector of the Main Staff to the Standard Barracks to

16     Captain Milorad Trpic, but that's got to be Milorad Trbic; right?

17        A.   This is the first time that I see this document.

18        Q.   Take your time.

19        A.   So I would like to emphasise once again that I've never seen this

20     document before.

21        Q.   Well, that should be Milorad Trbic; correct?

22        A.   It says Captain Milorad Trpic.

23        Q.   Well, surely if 5 tonnes of diesel came into the unit, you as

24     assistant commander for logistics would know about it; right?

25        A.   I don't remember.  Quite simply, I know nothing about this amount

Page 34023

 1     of fuel.

 2        Q.   Is it a question of memory, sir?

 3        A.   Well, I cannot change my memory.  I cannot refresh my memory.

 4     What I cannot remember, I cannot remember, and I say again I've never

 5     seen this document before.

 6        Q.   Well, this document would have gone to the logistics sector,

 7     wouldn't it?

 8        A.   Well, it's specified here who the recipient is in the Zvornik

 9     Brigade, but I would like to underline that I -- it didn't reach my desk.

10     I never received it.

11        Q.   It should have gone to the logistics sector, though, shouldn't

12     it?

13        A.   It says, "To the command," it doesn't say to the logistics

14     sector.

15        Q.   Sir, it's a simple question.  This document related to fuel

16     should have gone to the logistic sector, shouldn't it?

17        A.   And I'm telling you that I didn't receive this document.

18        Q.   I'll try again, sir.  Should a copy of this document have gone to

19     the logistics sector?

20        A.   I did not receive this letter.  This doesn't deal with the fuel

21     required by the Zvornik Brigade.  Had that been the case, then it would

22     be specified like that and in that case it would reach the logistics

23     sector.  And Captain Trbic would not be in charge of this fuel but rather

24     Captain Milosevic if it was intended for the logistics support of the

25     Zvornik Brigade.

Page 34024

 1        Q.   Sir, who is your chief that deals with fuel?

 2        A.   The chief of traffic service was Mr. Pantic.  The chief of

 3     technical service was Mr. Krstic.  The usual procedure, when it comes to

 4     fuel and issue of fuel for the needs of battalions, the person in charge

 5     was Mr. Pantic.  And in principle it was within the purview of the

 6     technical service, meaning that they were responsible for fuel.  Why was

 7     that the case?  The reason was because for one period of time we didn't

 8     have the chief of the technical service, and Mr. Krstic, when he came to

 9     take this position, he needed some time to learn about the job, and I'm

10     not sure whether he managed to do that because Mr. Krstic was a civilian,

11     and he was an engineer by profession.

12        Q.   So Pantic was your fuel guy.  Pantic should have seen this

13     document; correct?

14        A.   Whether he should have seen that or not, I don't know.

15        Q.   Well, let's put the original full up on the screen, and I want

16     you to look up in the right-hand corner of this document.  What's that

17     word, up in the right-hand corner, that's handwritten in?

18        A.   Yes, it reads "Pantic."

19        Q.   So this went to Pantic; right?

20        A.   I don't know.  As I said, I am not familiar with this document.

21     I was not informed about Pantic receiving this document.  Therefore, I

22     cannot confirm any of this.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to P00379.

24        Q.   The last little bit on this topic.  And we are going to the duty

25     officer notebook of 14 September.  It's B/C/S 115, English 115.  And I'll

Page 34025

 1     show you the original.

 2             So if you look down, sir, you'll see here in the duty officer

 3     book, and I can tell you that this is -- these are the numbers down here

 4     that have to do with this document we just looked at and another one just

 5     like it, both of which have Pantic written in the corner.  And here it

 6     actual says "delivered to Pantic."

 7             So you can confirm for us now that according to these records

 8     this fuel -- or, excuse me, these documents related to the fuel went to

 9     Pantic?

10        A.   If you can assist me, I can't find the sentence that you have

11     just read.  On which page is it?

12        Q.   It's down at the bottom.

13        A.   Which page?

14        Q.   Do you see that little star, look upon the --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you see where I'm referring you to now?

17        A.   I really apologise.  I can't see the name "Pantic" on this page.

18     If you can help me, please.

19        Q.   It's on the left-hand side where the little yellow marker is that

20     I gave to you, right by your left-hand.

21        A.   Well -- there you go.  That's how it should be.

22        Q.   Okay.  Do you see it?

23        A.   It's written in the Cyrillic script, and I'm going to try to --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we zoom in on that word, please.  Thank you.

25             Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 34026

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  He should look at the display.  He looks at the

 2     book, and ...

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  But don't you think this is even better?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the asterisk, where you

 5     pointed me to, it says:  Telegram, strictly confidential, 03/4, and then

 6     date 14th of September, 1995.  And then again another telegram, the 14th

 7     of September, and it says "to Pantic," as far as I can make it out.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   Thanks for clarifying that.  So if -- and I can tell you that the

10     fuel document you were looking at before is one of those two numbers.  So

11     this would mean that this actually -- this document went to Pantic, so

12     Pantic would have been fully aware of this fuel; correct?

13        A.   This is the entry into the duty officers' book, and it is up to

14     Pantic to confirm whether he received the telegram or not.

15        Q.   Sir, you're his superior.  He reports to you.  You would know

16     what he knew on something like this coming from General Mladic; correct?

17        A.   But he didn't notify me of this.  I don't remember.

18        Q.   I see.  All right.  Let me ask you another question.  We looked

19     through the duty officer notebook, and we looked for any time anyone at

20     the front gate would have called up the duty officer to tell them that a

21     soldier or an officer was at the front gate.  And I looked through that

22     whole book -- well, I've looked through it, my colleague behind me read

23     it, and there were no references in that book of any military man being

24     called to the attention of the duty officer.  There was one reference

25     where a civilian came by looking for Legenda.

Page 34027

 1        A.   I don't know about it.  I would have entered the information if

 2     anybody showed up.  I was a duty officer during my service in Bijeljina,

 3     and my instructions were that should anyone show up, the front gate

 4     should place a call, the person should be escorted to where he wants to

 5     go, and an entry should be made in the log-book.  That is how I

 6     understood the instructions.

 7        Q.   But that's not how it practically worked out, is it?  We know

 8     that from the book.

 9        A.   I don't know about it.  I emphasise that I don't know about it.

10        Q.   Sir, you testified.  Mr. Bourgon was asking you questions.  You

11     clearly said that it gets written in the book, it would have been in the

12     book if it happened.  You want to withdraw that testimony now?

13        A.   No, I do not want to withdraw it.  I stand by my position.  I am

14     convinced that this is the way that this work should be done.

15        Q.   You remember testifying in the state court?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   We've got an English version of this.  And you were asked a

18     question on page 19, I'll read it slowly.  It's about the time you were

19     at Orahovac:

20             "But when you arrived there nearby the school, were the trucks

21     already is there?"

22             That's the question by the Prosecutor.  You say:

23             "I don't remember exactly if they were already there, but upon my

24     arrival, the time I was there, I think -- I think I can go back a little.

25     There already was a vehicle that was prepared, and I don't know the exact

Page 34028

 1     time when I arrived and when -- when they started driving people off, I

 2     other words.  When I got there, I noticed a vehicle here, and they were

 3     already loading people on that vehicle."

 4             Is that correct?

 5        A.   That's what I said.  And that's what I observed when I got there.

 6     I repeated that.

 7        Q.   And you knew then and there that those people were going to be

 8     killed; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And it goes on.  We'll go down to the bottom of the page of page

11     20 in English, and the Prosecutor says:

12             "So they had a blindfold and they were loaded on to trucks.  Who

13     made all these necessary preparations?"

14             And you say:

15             "I don't know who made the preparations, only when I got there

16     and saw this case and heard this case, then I felt that I'd been cheated,

17     that I hadn't come to secure prisoners in a building.  And I requested to

18     be allowed to leave.  I entered a nearby house where they offered us some

19     coffee, and from there, I requested there a telephone -- a civilian

20     telephone in the house.  I asked for a duty operations officer to send me

21     a vehicle so I could go back to the brigade."

22             I'll take up to the -- and I'll repeat it, so it's very clear to

23     you.  It says here:

24             "I hadn't come to secure prisoners in a building, and I requested

25     to be allowed to leave."  Who did you request to be allowed to leave

Page 34029

 1     from?

 2        A.   I don't think that I put it quite that way, that I was seeking

 3     permission.  There was nobody to seek permission from.  I said that once

 4     I saw what was going on there, I felt that I was tricked, and I wanted to

 5     find a way to go back to the brigade and be gone from there.

 6        Q.   So you're saying this is wrong?

 7        A.   I described what happened in the same words that I described it

 8     now, that I had nobody to ask permission from.  I simply asked for a way

 9     to be found for me to be transported back to the brigade.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have no further questions.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would ask the Trial Chamber to

14     let me -- to put the witness just two questions, all of them related to

15     the fuel and document which the Prosecution --

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- asked in his cross-examination.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you very much.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Milosevic.  Let me introduce

22     myself to you although you know me.  My name is Zoran Zivanovic, and I am

23     counsel for Vujadin Popovic in this case.  Let us look at document 291,

24     291 that the Prosecutor showed you.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the bottom part of

Page 34030

 1     the document shown.

 2        Q.   The column -- or, rather, the row showing signatures.  Can you

 3     tell me if you can see from this document that Vujadin Popovic in fact

 4     received fuel?

 5        A.   Can we first look at the top of the document?

 6        Q.   It's the document that the Prosecutor showed you in relation to

 7     500 litres of fuel and 140 which were returned?

 8        A.   I can't conclude on the basis of the document that Popovic

 9     received it.  Can we go back to the signature block?  It says "received

10     by Branko Bogdanovic," or, rather, sorry, Branko Bogicevic.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall ever seeing a document which would

12     indicate that Popovic had received the fuel?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Did you ever receive information, and I'm excluding Prosecution

15     here from anyone else, to the effect that Popovic had received this

16     shipment of fuel?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

20     questions.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Bourgon, we have to finish by not later than quarter to 7.00.

23             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I will do my best to --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Otherwise we will have to come -- or, rather, you

25     will have to come again tomorrow because we are here every day in any

Page 34031

 1     case.

 2             MR. BOURGON:  If it was just for me, Mr. President, no problem,

 3     but I'll --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  I am sure you will do your best.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  [Overlapping speakers] ... for the others in the

 6     courtroom.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  I am sure you will do your best.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

 9        Q.   Welcome back, Mr. Milosevic.  I have a few questions for you.  At

10     page 42, line 23 today, my colleague suggested to you that you did not

11     issue any orders in Orahovac and you confirmed that.  What I would like

12     to know is in your portion, as assistant commander for logistics, how

13     often did you issue orders to other soldiers of the brigade?

14        A.   I didn't issue any orders to other units in the brigade.  My

15     orders were intended only for my chiefs of logistical support.

16             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have P406 in e-court, please.

17        Q.   I refer to page 45, line 16 where you were asked questions about

18     this document.  I'm sorry, this is not the wrong -- it's the wrong

19     document.  I am talking about the document which talked about uniforms.

20     Oh, 4600, I apologise.

21             Sir, this is a document that was shown to you by my colleague.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Can you confirm whether this document talks about uniforms being

24     received by the Zvornik Brigade on 17 July?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection, leading.

Page 34032

 1             MR. BOURGON:  Then we'll be here tomorrow morning, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Sir, what does this document say?

 3        A.   It says sewing and embroidery workshop and receipt of military

 4     post.  This document doesn't indicate that it was received by anyone in a

 5     unit.  If you scroll down, you will see that nobody signed on behalf of

 6     the brigade as having received the batch of uniforms and as having stored

 7     the uniforms in the brigade.

 8        Q.   Does this document include any information about uniforms being

 9     issued by the brigade?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Does this document contain any information that the uniforms

12     which are indicated there are new uniforms?

13        A.   The document indicates that the uniforms are camouflage uniforms.

14     Now, whether they are new or not --

15        Q.   Does that change anything in this document to your testimony that

16     in July 1995 you might have had some used documents but not new

17     uniforms -- sorry, old uniforms but not new uniforms?

18        A.   I said that we used the existing uniforms, the M77 uniforms.

19     This is the first time I see the document.

20        Q.   Sir, on page 45, line 1, my colleague asked you questions about

21     Pantic sending ammunition to Rocevic.  He did not ask you the specific

22     questions, whether you were aware of that.  So I am just asking, were

23     your aware that ammunition had been sent to Rocevic by Pantic on 15 July?

24        A.   No, I was not aware of it.

25        Q.   As assistant commander for logistics, how much are you aware of

Page 34033

 1     the daily activities of your section chiefs, what they do from minute to

 2     minute every day?  How much of this are you aware?

 3        A.   I was able to know from my meetings following the briefings with

 4     the commander, I would convey orders which I received at the briefing to

 5     provide security of the various battalions.  I did not interact with them

 6     frequently, and from this document I can see that there were matters I

 7     was not privy to.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have P4602 in e-court, please.

 9        Q.   Sir, this is a document that was also used by my colleague.  Can

10     you confirm if by this document you are issuing or requesting equipment?

11        A.   I said that I've seen the document for the first time here.  I

12     did say that I signed it.  With this document, I asked that the Zvornik

13     Brigade be -- that its request be met, but on the basis of the document

14     you can't really say if it was received by the brigade, and I don't

15     recall if that was the case.

16        Q.   Who was this equipment being requested from?  Who are you asking

17     to give you equipment?

18        A.   The request was sent to the Drina Corps command.

19        Q.   Is there anything in this document that says that you are asking

20     this equipment for Srebrenica purposes?

21        A.   Nowhere in the document does it state that the request was made

22     for Srebrenica.

23        Q.   Do you recall receiving any specific order asking you to provide

24     any equipment specifically for the purposes of the troops going to

25     Srebrenica?

Page 34034

 1        A.   I don't recall a document to that effect.

 2             MR. BOURGON:  P377.  And I would like to refer you to page ending

 3     in 5737.

 4             If the original can be given to the witness, maybe we can go a

 5     bit quicker.

 6        Q.   Sir, I would like to know if on this page, 5737, if there is any

 7     of your writing on this page?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You might want to direct him to the ERN and make

 9     sure he's looking at the right --

10             MR. BOURGON:  Yes, ERN number, I believe it would be at the

11     bottom or at the top.  5737 would be the last four digits for that page.

12     Maybe we can have it also in e-court.

13        Q.   Yes, the page is in e-court now, sir, before you on the screen.

14        A.   The first two sentences seem to be written on my hand.  It says,

15     Sreco, they should prepare their platoons, and he should be ready to

16     leave within half an hour if he calls in.

17        Q.   And the rest of the document, the rest of this page, is there any

18     of your writing?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   If I move to the next page, ERN 5738, you've already confirmed to

21     my colleague that this is all your writing except the last line; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   The last three lines.

24        Q.   Last three lines.  Now, is that the first -- looking at the --

25     your writing on this page, is that when you took over your duty on 13

Page 34035

 1     July?  Can you say this?

 2        A.   I think so.  It says the 13th of July in the upper right-hand

 3     corner.

 4        Q.   Now, in the middle of the page it says at some point 0950.  Based

 5     on these numbers, at -- the last three lines which are not in your

 6     writing would have been written, at the minimum, at what time, at the

 7     earliest?

 8        A.   I can conclude that it must have been after 9.50, because in the

 9     upper right-hand corner, it says "9.50, call all logistics battalions,"

10     and then no entry for time was made below.  I can't remember when it

11     could have been.

12        Q.   If you can turn to page -- to 5739, are there any time entries on

13     this page?

14        A.   No time entries were made on this page either.

15        Q.   And the next page, what is the first time entry?

16        A.   1315.

17        Q.   So on this basis, what is the latest that those three lines not

18     in your writing could have been written?

19        A.   The entries that were made by someone else and not by me is at --

20     on the page 3542 from the middle to the bottom, and on the following page

21     the first paragraph was not written by me.

22        Q.   I'm sorry, my question wasn't precise.  Go back to the three

23     lines which are not in your writing on page 5738.  You see those three

24     lines, the last three lines of 5738?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 34036

 1        Q.   All right.  If you go back to the page I was referring to where

 2     you mention the first time entry as being 1315, what do you conclude

 3     that -- when were these lines written at the latest?

 4        A.   I can't say.  I can only say that it was between 9.50 and 1315.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned today at page 21, line 12, that you

 6     went to bed at midnight on the 13th of July.  Do you recall saying this?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, do you recall whether before you went to bed your assistant

 9     made any entries in the book?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   If you go to page 5742.  If your assistant did not make any

12     writing while you are there, then what is the earliest time these entries

13     there can have been entered?

14        A.   They could have been made between 2400 hours and 5.00 in the

15     morning on the night between the 13th and the 14th.

16        Q.   If you move to the next page, when your writing changes again,

17     which is 5743, at what time did this -- did you take-over your duty?

18        A.   The time when I took the duty shift over from the assistant is

19     not stated here, but I do know that it's normally at 5.00 in the morning.

20        Q.   If you go back to page 5742 at the bottom, you were asked a few

21     questions about this.  The last three lines, you confirm to my colleague

22     that this is not your writing.  Were you told about this information at

23     any time?

24        A.   No, I don't remember that I was at any time.  I don't remember

25     the information at all.

Page 34037

 1        Q.   Were you told at any time when you resume your duty in the

 2     morning of 14th July whether Beara had called during the night?

 3        A.   When I resumed my duty on the morning of the 14th, at 5.00, when

 4     I took over from my assistant, I was not told any information.

 5        Q.   If I go to page 5740, questions were put to you by my colleague

 6     concerning the bulldozer or the dozer in your writing.  Had you received

 7     a request by anybody to find a dozer, how would you do it?

 8        A.   I don't remember that I received a request to that effect.  I

 9     suppose that such a request would not have been addressed to me.  Being a

10     technical matter, it would have been sort of somebody who deals with that

11     sort of machinery, i.e., the engineers.

12             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have P289 in e-court.  And this will be my

13     last series of questions, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Sir, this was the book that was shown to you concerning certain

15     equipment being shipped, I think.  I would like to go to the same page

16     which the Prosecution was using, and that -- the exact page number was

17     116 in B/C/S and page 8 in English.

18             Now, the information looking at what you -- and the Prosecution

19     agreed that this was at 0100 in the morning.  Where were you at that

20     time?

21        A.   I said that I went to sleep at 1200 hours on the 13th of July.

22        Q.   And were you informed about anything being shipped to Orahovac at

23     1.00 in the morning?  Were you informed of that at any time?

24        A.   No, I wasn't.

25        Q.   Can you tell from this entry what was shipped to Orahovac at 1.00

Page 34038

 1     in the morning?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Have you seen this book before?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Are there other documents that record shipments made and materiel

 6     issued?

 7        A.   I said on several occasions that there existed delivery sheets

 8     which would be filled out against the materiel issued from the warehouse

 9     for the purposes of the brigade.

10        Q.   Now, if you go down this page where it says 14 July, 1995, do you

11     see any indication of anything being shipped to Orahovac on 14 July?

12        A.   No, I don't.

13        Q.   Based on this document, does that change your testimony of what

14     you said today, that you did not order and you did not see any food

15     arriving in Orahovac on 14 July?

16        A.   I do not change my testimony.  I didn't see it, and I didn't know

17     about any sort of food arriving in Orahovac.

18        Q.   Sir, today on page 74, the Prosecution put a question to you

19     concerning that there were no entries in the duty book about a military

20     policeman that called.  My question was the following:  What would you

21     write in the book, that a military policeman called you from the gate, or

22     would you write the names and the particulars of the person visiting?

23     Which information would you enter in the book?

24        A.   As can be seen from my entries in the book, I wrote everything;

25     who appeared, the calls that were made, and if I was on duty that day, I

Page 34039

 1     would write everything.  I would say that somebody who belonged to

 2     another brigade had come to visit the Zvornik Brigade.

 3        Q.   Looking at the -- I think you still have P377 before you -- nope,

 4     P -- that's the duty book, I think you have this in front of you.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  If I can have this in e-court.  And I'd like to go

 6     to page 5750.

 7        Q.   Do you have this page, sir, 5750?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   The last line on this page, can you say what it says?

10        A.   "CJB - Lanej [phoen], 100-troop-strong unit is arriving."

11        Q.   Now, you're not on duty that day, but what does that this appear

12     to say, or what's your understanding of those lines written by the duty

13     officer on that day?

14        A.   That means that the operations duties officer was called and an

15     entry was made about this event.

16        Q.   What would you have been written in the book on 13 July if a unit

17     of 100 soldiers had arrived?

18        A.   I suppose I would note down the source of the call, if it was a

19     CJB, and if the person -- if the caller introduced themselves, I would

20     write down their name.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we leave it here, Mr. Bourgon?

22             MR. BOURGON:  I am done, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Milosevic.  I have no further questions

24     for you.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  All right.

Page 34040

 1             Mr. Milosevic, we are finished with your testimony.  You will be

 2     ushered out of the courtroom.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Documents.

 6             Mr. Bourgon.

 7             MR. BOURGON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I only have --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  One document.

 9             MR. BOURGON:  -- one document which was the one that was marked

10     by the witness.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

12             MR. BOURGON:  So it would be IC3D110.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Any objections from anyone?  That's the plan

14     of the Zvornik Brigade headquarters.  Yes.  No objections, so admitted.

15             Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, the list has gone around.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  You have five documents.  Any objections?  I hear

18     none.  So these five documents are also admitted.

19             The only thing that I notice is that the first one has an MFI

20     behind the number.  Is that because it's still MFI'd?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It was MFI'd by the Popovic team.  We're not sure

22     why.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Probably to --

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that's that huge red book -- or the big red

25     book, and we just wanted that one page about the 13th and the 14th of

Page 34041

 1     July.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Anything that is not yet translated

 3     will remain MFI'd until it is.

 4             Yes, Mr. Haynes.

 5             MR. HAYNES:  Just one thing, it's not a document, but during the

 6     course of his cross-examination, Mr. McCloskey took the witness through

 7     the duty officers' notebook for the 13th of July, and on page 123 of

 8     Exhibit P377 in the middle of the page appears, in a box, Vinko and two

 9     phone numbers.  We're all agreed that is no reference to my client at

10     all, and I spoke to Mr. McCloskey about this, and I thought it

11     appropriate to clear this up.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Do you agree to that, Mr. McCloskey?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, and I think on the record somewhere it's who

14     that is, but that's my memory.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I saw you standing up, Mr. Bourgon.

16     But you have second thoughts.  Thanks.

17             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We stand adjourned.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20                           6.55 p.m. sine die.