Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 228

1 Thursday, 14 July 2005

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [No accused present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 3.10 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honour.

8 This is the case number, IT-04-74-PT, the Prosecutor versus Jadranko

9 Prlic, Bruno Stojic, Slobodan Praljak, Milovoj Petkovic, Valentin Coric,

10 and Berislav Pusic.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 May I have the appearances. Prosecution first.

13 MR. SCOTT: [Microphone not activated]

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If the Prosecution wants to be heard, it must switch

16 on the microphone, Mr. Scott.

17 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Kenneth Scott for the Prosecution,

18 together with Josee D'Aoust, Pieter Kruger, Virginia De Abajo-Marques, and

19 our case manager, Denise Gustin.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Scott.

21 For the Defence. Could I -- yes, let's go by the row.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Michael Karnavas for Dr. Prlic, and with me is

25 Ms. Suzana Tomanovic. She's the co-counsel.

Page 229

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

3 MR. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

4 Berislav Zivkovic, attorney-at-law from Zagreb, for the accused Bruno

5 Stojic.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Zivkovic.

7 MR. KOVACIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Bozidar Kovacic as

8 defence counsel for Mr. Slobodan Praljak. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kovacic.

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

11 Vesna Alaburic, Defence counsel for Milivoj Petkovic.

12 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

13 Tomislav Jonjic, Defence counsel for Valentin Coric.


15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

16 Good afternoon, learned friends. Appearing for Berislav Pusic, Fahrudin

17 Ibrisimovic, attorney-at-law.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

19 We have a Status Conference in the case against Mr. Prlic and

20 others. We have prepared an agenda. Are you informed about the agenda?

21 The first item on the agenda is the status of negotiations on the

22 Prosecution's proposed adjudicated and agreed facts.

23 The second issue is pending motions.

24 The third one is the work plan.

25 And four is other issues.

Page 230

1 Would you like to add anything to the agenda? But you could also

2 include them under "other issues."

3 Then we'll start with the status of the negotiations on the

4 Prosecution's proposed adjudicated and agreed facts.

5 I am informed that at the 65 ter meeting that a time plan was

6 agreed, and I already indicate that the Chamber grants the extension of

7 time requested within the limits of the time plan agreed. The work plan

8 will be distributed soon.

9 Is there anything else you'd like to address in relation to the

10 status of the negotiations of the proposed adjudicated and agreed facts?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour, other than to say that that's

12 absolutely correct.


14 MR. KARNAVAS: So that we're all in agreement.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then the second issue - I'll just go by it one by

16 one - the pending motions, second on the list of the agenda. The two

17 motions that are pending, not only long but already too long, and I

18 apologise for the Chamber that we have not given decisions yet. At the

19 same time, you'll be aware that it's a rather complicated matter and that

20 we would not like to rush through it but to give thorough decisions.

21 These are the preliminary motions on the form of the indictment and the

22 challenge of jurisdiction. Any observations in respect of that, apart

23 from, perhaps, that I hope that you accept the apologies of the Chamber.

24 If there's nothing there, then the next one is the request for

25 variations of conditions of provisional release. There are two motions

Page 231

1 pending, the Coric fourth request and the -- for variation of the

2 conditions of provisional release filed the 21st of June, and the Stojic

3 request for variation of conditions of provisional release filed the 23rd

4 of June. The Chamber expects to give a decision next week. We -- the

5 Chamber has received the position of the Prosecution in that respect.

6 Any further observations to be made in that respect?

7 Then there are two motions for review of the Deputy Registrar's

8 decision regarding a request for assignment of counsel: One filed on

9 behalf of Mr. Praljak, one filed on behalf of Mr. Petkovic. We have not

10 yet received the response by the Registry, and it is of utmost importance

11 to have a response from the Registry because that sheds light on all the

12 information exchanged between -- between counsel for Mr. Praljak and

13 counsel for Mr. Petkovic. We could not expect any decision to be given

14 before the recess. You'll understand that. I think under the -- although

15 it might not be directly applicable, the Rule that a response should be

16 received within two weeks, the Registry has been informed that if they

17 want to respond - and Chamber very much want the Registry to respond -

18 that the response should be received, I think, by next Thursday. That's

19 the 21st of July.

20 The Chamber is aware of the concerns it raises. At the same

21 time, it's again not a matter which you could just deal with in a few

22 seconds, especially since there are some -- I would say some matters of

23 principle involved as well, especially the issue of whether information

24 asked for by the Registry could cover only the present situation -- well,

25 to say today and not yesterday. That is a matter which needs thorough

Page 232

1 consideration.

2 Is there anything to be raised in this respect? Yes.

3 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I don't know whether it would be

4 appropriate now or put -- or I can raise it under item -- whatever you

5 say.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If it's about these motions, you may raise the

7 matter.

8 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, it is. Of course.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

10 MR. KOVACIC: We -- we have been told that the -- that the

11 Chamber may decide to invite the accused to the hearing which possibly may

12 be scheduled related to those motions you just mentioned, review of the

13 Registry decision. And --


15 MR. KOVACIC: -- if that -- if you will consider that, I would

16 just like to put two or three facts which you, I think, might have -- want

17 to have in mind in that decision.

18 First, in a very similar situation which I faced personally in

19 Kordic/Cerkez trial during the appeal phase, Judge Schomburg in a similar

20 situation also set up a hearing, and despite of the fact that the client

21 was here in Detention Unit, he was not invited.

22 Second, if you decide to call the clients -- the accused to be

23 present, that, of course, would imply relatively a lot of logistical

24 issues and, of course, expenses as well.

25 So if I may suggest, if Your Honour would believe that it would

Page 233

1 be appropriate to have the client here, perhaps a videolink conference

2 could be also discussed and/or alternatively, if you anyhow decided that

3 you would like to have the clients here on that hearing, then at least, if

4 the circumstances will allow it, to have a hearing scheduled for afternoon

5 sometime, not before 2.00 p.m., so we can organise a flight in a way that

6 they stay here only one night, so we've minimised the whole -- the whole

7 project.

8 That is our submission, and I think I have also --

9 JUDGE ORIE: I understand also for Mr. Petkovic, I take it?

10 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. Yes. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, not having received yet the response by

12 the Registrar, has not yet considered whether a hearing at all would be

13 needed. There are several options. One of them is to put additional

14 questions to the Registry and to the Defence to receive further

15 information. There are a few issues -- for example, the matter of

16 principle, whether you have to provide information only relevant today or

17 also relevant yesterday is, of course, a matter -- mainly a legal matter,

18 I would say, which would not require the presence of the accused

19 themselves.

20 If there would be any specific reason -- because I take it that

21 we'll be -- it will be a lot of paperwork. I take it that we get the

22 results of investigations made and we get copies of the requests for

23 further information, the responses to such requests. I mean, for that

24 reason I think also the presence of the accused would not be required. At

25 the same time, if there are any specific reasons why the presence of

Page 234

1 Mr. Praljak and Mr. Petkovic would be needed in the view of the Defence,

2 then we'd like to -- to be informed about that so that we can take a

3 decision, if there would be a hearing, whether the presence of the accused

4 would be required. So therefore we'd then like to -- it could be that

5 they could give additional information, but it's hard to say for us at

6 this moment where we have not even received the response by the Registry.

7 Any further matter to be raised in this respect? But I noted

8 that you at least want to consider us seriously to invite the accused. So

9 my first response is: Give us the specific reasons what that should add

10 to what counsel could say. I'm not saying it would not, but we'd like to

11 know exactly. And then, of course, logistics, expenses, and the time of

12 the hearing will be taken into consideration.

13 Yes.

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If I may clarify, Your Honour. My

15 colleague Mr. Kovacic and I did not feel that the presence of our clients

16 was indispensable in order to clarify all the facts pertaining to the

17 decision on financing. My colleague Mr. Kovacic's comment referred mainly

18 to the information we received at today's 65 ter conference that the

19 possibility of our clients being invited to the hearing is not to be

20 excluded. Should this happen, we submit that it might be organised in the

21 way we suggested.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. So you do not take -- you

23 just took into consideration that the Chamber might decide that the

24 presence of the accused would be needed.

25 MR. KOVACIC: I apologise, Your Honour. Yes, that is exactly

Page 235

1 what you said. If the Chamber decides so, we are here. And by the way,

2 I'm sure that if -- if the Chamber decides to -- to have a hearing, that I

3 am capable, of course, with the -- with the help of my assistant, who is

4 dedicated to the task, I could -- I'm sure I could answer any specific

5 question in -- even in detail.


7 MR. KOVACIC: So -- thank you. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So you'd say you're fully informed about any

9 factual --

10 MR. KOVACIC: Absolutely.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- element that might come into play.

12 MR. KOVACIC: Absolutely. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Kovacic and Ms. Alaburic.

14 Then I'd like to move to the next matter, which is the work plan.

15 The work plan covers at this moment when 65 ter meetings will be held.

16 The next one -- I see the 27th of July. Is that correct, or is that a

17 mistake? I see it here.

18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: I strike out one day and I do understand that on

20 Wednesday, the 7th of September at 3.00 p.m., the next 65 ter meeting will

21 be held.

22 The next Status Conference is scheduled for the 17th of November

23 of this year.

24 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's better to -- to distribute the list as

Page 236

1 soon as possible. It covers the disclosure of material. It also covers

2 agreement on facts, the number of exhibits and witnesses, and the hours

3 for the examination-in-chief and cross-examination of witnesses. It also

4 deals with the Prosecution's motions to admit witnesses' statements under

5 Rule 92 bis - I know that some progress has been made already in that

6 respect - and when the pre-trial briefs should be filed. No date has been

7 set for that; however, I take it that the Defence and the Prosecution is

8 fully aware that the case is expected and is scheduled to start on from

9 the 1st of December of this year.

10 Then the work plan will be distributed. If there's anything to

11 be submitted in this respect, you have an opportunity to do so now.

12 MR. SCOTT: Just by way of clarification. Your Honour, in the

13 meeting today I believe it was agreed that the parties would next meet

14 with Mr. Harhoff in terms of adjudicated facts on Thursday, the 8th of

15 September at 2.00 in the afternoon, and it may be that it might not make

16 sense to meet both on the 7th for the 65 ter and then on again the next

17 day, although we could certainly combine those into possibly one session.

18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

19 MR. SCOTT: It's not a major point. I'm sure all of us would be

20 happy to be here on both days, but just by way of clarification.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that it's scheduled for the 8th.

22 Yes.

23 Any further matters in relation to the work plan?

24 If not, I come to the following point on the agenda, and that is

25 other issues. Are there other issues? Of course, one of the usual issues

Page 237

1 to be discussed, but I'll rather keep that for last, is the health

2 situation of the accused, and there the parties, of course, could -- could

3 apply for private session. But apart from the health of the accused, is

4 there any other issue to be raised at this moment?

5 Mr. Scott.

6 MR. SCOTT: Not for the Prosecution, Your Honour. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: For the Defence?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I do have one issue that

9 I wish to raise. I did raise it earlier during the 65 ter meeting, both

10 yesterday and today, and it regards the Rule 45 motion filed by my client

11 back in September last year.

12 Now that we have a trial date, which is coming right upon us, and

13 there's a lot of work to be done, and after being told by the Prosecutor

14 how much -- how many hours they had to put in and resources expended to

15 put together their -- these agreed facts and adjudicated facts, I think it

16 is very clear that the Defence needs adequate resources, at least with

17 respect to Dr. Prlic.

18 So far we've been waiting patiently from the Registrar, but it's

19 coming to a point where I think it's -- it's unbecoming of the UN to

20 expect the Defence counsel to be subsidising the defence of their client.

21 So I would most appreciate it if the Trial Chamber could perhaps apply - I

22 don't want to say pressure - but sort of make some suggestions that they

23 act upon it with all deliberate speed, as it were.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Karnavas, you were speaking on behalf of

Page 238

1 Mr. Prlic. Would this extend to any of the other accused? We -- I

2 noticed already, I think, that the -- for Mr. Praljak and for Mr. Petkovic

3 that we are -- that there is a decision by the Registrar and that we have

4 to consider that once we've received the response by the Registry.

5 Is there any similar concern valid for Mr. Stojic, Mr. Coric, or

6 Mr. Pusic?

7 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the situation is

8 exactly the same in the case of Mr. Coric.

9 MR. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the same situation

10 obtains in the case of Mr. Stojic, and in fact it is even more serious

11 than in the other cases.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of

13 Mr. Pusic has received a decision. It has no objections in that respect.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's -- at this moment, the request for

15 review are pending for Mr. Praljak and Mr. Petkovic, also Mr. Prlic,

16 Mr. Coric, and Mr. Stojic. You would like to Chamber to urge the Registry

17 to come up with a decision not only soon but even very soon. I will

18 address the matter -- I'll take up the matter with the Registry.

19 Any other other issue? Yes.

20 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. If I may, Your Honour. Since you raised the

21 issue of the health of the accused and --

22 JUDGE ORIE: But as I said before, I'd first like to deal with

23 any other matters --

24 MR. KOVACIC: Oh, I see.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- apart from the health. But if there is nothing,

Page 239

1 then it is the right time to raise the issue.

2 I'm looking around. I see no other other matters raised, so then

3 time. Please proceed, Mr. Kovacic.

4 MR. KOVACIC: I apologise for jumping in front but I thought that

5 nobody has anything to add.

6 Well, you mentioned the issue of the health of the accused, and I

7 believe that I ought to inform you that I will next week file a

8 supplemental motion for variation of conditions of provisional release of

9 my client.

10 First of all, I'm grateful and thank the Chamber to -- already to

11 grant my earlier motion where we asked approval for him to move down there

12 in Dalmatia in order -- primarily in order to fix his stomatological

13 problems because he has a brother there who is a dentist, and because of

14 his lacking means, he's trying to do that on most economical way, of

15 course.

16 In the meantime, this situation is becoming much worse and much

17 more serious than he believed, and he has just visited specialists in

18 Zagreb and it is said that it is quite a serious problem; it will need

19 about at least two months to fix a minimal problem, which is now really,

20 really active.

21 Well, that -- that raises many problems for my client and for

22 myself because of cooperating in Defence. Nevertheless, I will file a

23 motion -- a supplemental motion requesting probably additional time in

24 Makarska but there might be other solutions as well.

25 But what I'm trying to tell here is not only to inform you that

Page 240

1 we will do so, so not to surprise you tomorrow with a brand new motion,

2 but also that primarily my client decided to finally solve this problem of

3 his health in order to be fit for trial, because there really is a great

4 possibility that when he will be back here in detention the problem may

5 arise and be much more serious and complicated, causing some delays or his

6 not appearing on the trial, et cetera. So we will do our best to fix

7 that, but we are also looking for support from the Chamber if there will

8 be need to do at least part of the work which have to be done, that they

9 are done in Makarska because of economical reasons. I will, of course,

10 explain all that in detail in the submission.

11 Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In order to make it possible for the

13 Prosecution to respond to such a motion, I would very much like attached

14 to the motion, I would say, the work plan from the dentist and a clear

15 description of what exactly has to be done and how, in what stages it can

16 be performed, and for how long the patient then should be present on -- on

17 a more continuous basis; would that be for one week and then one or two

18 weeks off? And so I'd like -- I'd like to receive for the Chamber as full

19 as possible information.

20 We also, then, are in a position, apart from treatment to be

21 provided by a family member dentist -- we're also in a position to assess

22 and ask even advice for that, to assess what consequences it might have at

23 later stages if, for example, half of the treatment would be done, what

24 risks that would result in for the trial, the risk of absence at trial.

25 So therefore we'd like to have as complete as possible medical

Page 241

1 documentation on the exact problem.

2 MR. KOVACIC: You will have it, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

4 Is there any other health issue to be raised? And as I said

5 before, if you want to apply for private session, I certainly will

6 consider it, because health is a private matter.

7 Yes, Mr. Ibrisimovic.

8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

9 believe we are still in private session?

10 JUDGE ORIE: We are not in. I said you could apply for private

11 session. But perhaps for the dentist, it's -- it's less sensitive than

12 perhaps other problems. I don't know what's still to come. But

13 Mr. Ibrisimovic, if -- if you'd --

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask that we go into

15 private session, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll go into private session.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 242











11 Page 242 redacted. Private session.















Page 243

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In private session we've heard further details

10 on health problems.

11 Since I just asked you still in private session whether there

12 were any other issues to be raised and the answer was no, this concludes

13 the Status Conference. We'll adjourn sine die.

14 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned

15 at 3.44 p.m.