Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1213

1 Thursday, 4 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning. Mr. Registrar,

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good morning. IT-04-74-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Can I

10 have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution.

11 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Your Honour. Ken Scott for the

12 Prosecutor, together with Daryl Mundis, Roeland Bos, and Skye Winner.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Defence counsel,

15 please.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Michael

17 Karnavas for Dr. Jadranko Prlic, along with Suzana Tomanovic, co-counsel,

18 and Ana Vlahovic, legal assistant.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Senka

20 Nozica on behalf of Bruno Stojic, assisted by Valent Slonje, our case

21 manager.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Bozidar

23 Kovacic. I represent Mr. Praljak, and I'm assisted by Nika Pinter. Thank

24 you.

25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Vesna

Page 1214

1 Alaburic. I represent Milivoj Petkovic, and Davor Lazic is my case

2 manager.

3 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Tomislav

4 Jonjic. I represent Mr. Valentin Coric and I'm assisted by Krystyna

5 Grinberg, legal assistant, and Ida Jurkovic, case manager.

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

7 behalf of Mr. Pusic, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, Roger Sahota, and our legal

8 assistant, Nermin Mulalic.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On behalf of the Trial Chamber,

10 I greet everybody here in the courtroom; the accused, the Prosecution, the

11 Defence counsel, and all the people helping us.

12 As you know, today we are going to start with a new witness. The

13 testimony will continue tomorrow. But we have to finish our day at 4.00

14 because there is a Status Conference scheduled at 4.30 with Judge Meron.

15 So we will have to leave this courtroom at 4.00. And we might have to

16 have shorter breaks, slightly shorter breaks. We'll have 15 instead of 20

17 minutes. And as to the lunch break, it will not be 60 minutes but 50

18 minutes.

19 This being said, let me tackle two other logistical matters.

20 Yesterday I noted that when a party asked for a document to be submitted

21 to the witness, it took some time before you could see the document on the

22 screen. I discussed this with the Registrar, who told me that, generally

23 speaking, it takes some 10 to 15 seconds for the document to appear, or

24 even 30 seconds. But last night I did a calculation. If we are to tender

25 into evidence over 10.000 documents, multiplied by this number of seconds,

Page 1215

1 this is going to turn into hours if not days. So we're going to proceed

2 with the system, but if we ever were to see that it takes too much time, I

3 think that it's better to move back to the old system where we straight

4 away have the document on the overhead projector, and it takes hardly a

5 few seconds. I will see. I mean, no problem when it's about some hundred

6 documents, but here, I mean, we have a huge amount of documents. Look at

7 yesterday's hearing. The Defence, as I saw, had several documents for

8 their cross-examination. So I can expect to be snowed under by documents

9 from the Defence. So we'll have to take this into account.

10 Second problem: During cross-examination, if you want to submit a

11 document, well, as Judges we do not presently know whether the document

12 you are about to submit was disclosed to you by the Prosecution, documents

13 you are then about to use, or whether it is a document that you found

14 yourself after looking for it and that you would have told the Prosecutor

15 20 hours before and you had sort of submitted to the Registry. So

16 whenever you have a document, please tell us about its origin. Was it

17 provided by the Prosecution or not? If it is a document you have found,

18 tell us where it comes from, whether it comes from archives or not. Just

19 for saving time. You know that I want to be very fast when it comes to

20 the admissibility of documents. It's up to you later on should there be a

21 challenge. In the end, through filings later, you could ask for it to be

22 withdrawn. But to save time, there's no problem when it comes to

23 admitting just about immediately a document. But to make our work easier,

24 just tell us where it comes from. Most of the time I check whether there

25 are stamps or signatures. However, there again if you give us a document

Page 1216

1 that I haven't seen before, in a matter of seconds I have to check all

2 this because the document is right away submitted to the witness. So as

3 much as possible tell us where the document comes from in order to save

4 time.

5 A last minor item before the witness comes in: I know that some

6 time ago a wish was expressed for the accused to have laptops which they

7 could use to key in information during the hearing. I know that this is

8 some of your concern, Mr. Karnavas. I am sure that you're going to tackle

9 this straight away, aren't you?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I am. Again good morning, Mr. President and Your

11 Honours. In fact, I do have a laptop for my client. The idea was that we

12 would bring it in every day for Mr. Prlic to use. At the end of the day,

13 he would burn the CD of what he had typed so he could take it and download

14 it in the computer that is provided to him at the UNDU. We would take the

15 computer back, the laptop back every day. That way there is no security

16 risk whatsoever. Then Mr. Prlic, if he has any notes from the night

17 before, he would bring the CD, we would then download that material and

18 that way we could have his input since we don't have e-mail.

19 Now, in the event that that's not workable, or in the alternative

20 I would say, and something that I would prefer, actually, is to have my

21 client sitting next to me. You alluded to that, Mr. President. I think

22 that this is a mature enough institution, and now that we have the system

23 -- the courtroom redesigned, there is no reason why Mr. Prlic can't be

24 sitting next to me, I can have direct access to the client. This is done

25 all over the United States with -- irrespective of the crime charged, and

Page 1217

1 I don't see the security risk.

2 Now, I haven't spoken with security. I suspect that others would

3 do, but they're there by the doors, and so I don't see a problem. Others

4 may. But in any event, I would certainly request that that matter be

5 looked into and, if possible, to have our client sitting next to us so we

6 can have their full input throughout the trial.

7 Yesterday, I believe Mr. Prlic wanted to pass me a note. He had to

8 give it to a guard. Thankfully, the legal assistant for one of the teams

9 brought it over. This cannot be done, especially when we're going to have

10 some pretty important witnesses where the clients have a great deal of

11 knowledge, inside knowledge, that we don't have even though we've had

12 access to our clients for the last year or so.

13 In any event, I would most appreciate it if you could look into

14 this, Mr. President. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

16 I'm going to give you the floor, Mr. Scott. Mr. Kovacic, on this same

17 item?

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to say

19 something about what you said about presenting documents with regard to

20 providing information on the source of the documents. That's not a

21 problem at all, naturally. We'll always be in a position to identify the

22 document since it's a document we obtained from our own databases, and as

23 a result, we know the source of these documents. However, I'm somewhat

24 concerned by you mentioning that we should provide the Prosecution with

25 documents 20 hours in advance. As far as the technical procedure is

Page 1218

1 concerned, I think that sometimes it will be impossible to do this. I

2 have to tell you how we work to explain my position.

3 Today we will be hearing a witness, and let's say we finish

4 hearing the witness by the end of the day. It's not until this evening

5 that we'll be able to examine his testimony, although we have a folder

6 containing documents that might be interesting with regard to that

7 witness. But it's only this evening that we'll know the nature of his

8 testimony in the course of the examination-in-chief and only then we'll be

9 able to decide on the nature of the cross-examination. So it won't be

10 until 10.00, 11.00, 12.00 at night that we can decide which documents

11 we'll be selecting.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sorry for interrupting you. I

13 just thought of something. You said "the witness." Does that mean that

14 the Prosecution witness is going to be seen by you before he or she comes

15 into this courtroom?

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No, no. But we first prepare

17 ourselves on the basis of his previously given statements, the statements

18 that the witness has usually given to the Prosecution or to other

19 services, and then we have a rough selection of documents, documents of a

20 general nature. But it's only after we have heard the witness in the

21 courtroom, after we have seen what the nature of the examination-in-chief

22 is that we can decide which specific documents to select, and this is done

23 at night, in the evening. So we barely have enough time to do this

24 because there are certain procedures that we have to follow in the

25 e-court. If we've already inputted these documents in the e-court, that's

Page 1219

1 not a problem; but if not, it is. So it's only before the hearing is held

2 that we can decide on the documents to use. And I don't want my right to

3 use a certain document to be violated, because I haven't provided the

4 Prosecution with a copy of that document 20 hours in advance. Thank you.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may supplement a little bit on this issue.

6 The Prosecution has the burden of proof, and we have documents that we've

7 gathered through our own investigation. We don't know what the

8 Prosecution is going to do, we don't know what the witness is going to

9 say. We think, and I believe it would be a violation of the right to

10 remain silent, in a sense, if we were to disclose our documents to the

11 Prosecutor before they conduct their direct examination, because then they

12 can then cure whatever problems we may have. It's a little bit like

13 playing poker. If I show my hand to the Prosecutor and I'm the only one

14 showing it, now, he has to show his. He's got to tell us what his

15 documents are because he has that burden of proof. And let's say that the

16 witness comes up and Mr. Scott today decides that he's not going to go

17 into a particular area, which is his choice. Then I might have given a

18 document to Mr. Scott that I might be able to use down the road with

19 another witness, and now he begins to know what my strategy is, what my

20 defence is, and he begins to do what I would call a rebuttal in his case

21 in chief. I dare say that that would be improper.

22 I think the best practice is, and I know that we disagree on this

23 point, the Prosecution would like to have all the Defence documents at

24 this time, even though we're still getting part of their documents. But I

25 think it would be a violation of the right to remain silent. It's also --

Page 1220

1 we would be helping the Prosecution in meeting its burden. They don't

2 need any help. If by now they can't figure out what their case is and

3 they can't put on their case, then they certainly don't need any help from

4 me.

5 So I would ask Your Honours that we not -- that we not be put in a

6 position where we have to disclose our documents to them until we decide.

7 And I may not make that decision. Even, for instance, yesterday, I had

8 plenty of documents that I was prepared to use. However, based on the

9 cross-examination, I chose not to. That was a decision that was made at

10 that instance. I'm going to save them for some other time.

11 So, Your Honours, I would ask you to take that into consideration.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Scott. Please

14 answer these three points: First point, the issue of the laptop, laptops

15 that will be given to the accused. They would use them during the

16 hearing, after which the CD would be burned and taken by the accused,

17 possibly to use it later on the computer -- computers they have in the

18 Detention Unit in Scheveningen. That's the first issue.

19 Second issue, and I need your advice before I speak to

20 Mr. Registrar and the President of the Tribunal about this, the Defence

21 counsel are of my view, which was a personal view, I think it would be

22 more useful for the accused to be next to their lawyers. I'd like to know

23 what you think of this.

24 Third issue, but this is something that crops up in every trial

25 proceedings, that's the issue of documents during cross-examination. The

Page 1221

1 Defence tells us that you have the burden of proof, so they don't have to

2 tell you in advance what they plan to use in terms of documents.

3 Therefore, that you would only be apprised of the documents at the last

4 minute inasmuch as the Prosecution have the burden of proof and the

5 Defence do not have to make the Prosecution's life easier.

6 So on these three issues very quickly, Mr. Scott, please.

7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, Your Honours, on the laptop issue, we

8 have no position except that whatever security issues may be raised.

9 There maybe some security issues or concerns about the transfer of

10 information, that sort of thing. Other than that, we have no particular

11 position. We defer to the security staff on the best practice.

12 And the same position on the second part. As far as where the

13 accused sit in the courtroom, as far as I'm concerned, that's entirely a

14 matter of security. I think we should defer to the expertise of the

15 security staff. And this has been the practice in the last ten years of

16 this Tribunal, it's been the practice for the accused to sit together in

17 the box, so to speak, arranged as they are today, with security arranged

18 as they are today. The Tribunal's been doing that for the last 10 or 12

19 years, it seems like there's no reason to change that now. I think we

20 should defer to the expertise of the security staff.

21 On the issue of cross-examination documents, Your Honour, I'm glad

22 this has come up. I think what has been said this morning is actually

23 quite telling, and you're going to see this time and time again day in and

24 day out in the next couple of years. The apparent philosophy is that

25 while the Prosecution should turn over, of course, every single possible

Page 1222

1 piece of paper in advance and provide a fair trial, the Defence should not

2 provide a fair trial to the Prosecution, and for the Prosecution it is

3 trial by ambush. That is, they can wait and spring everything they have

4 on us at the last minute, including documents coming up on the screen at

5 the moment that we've never seen before, having no idea where it came

6 from, whether the witness has ever seen it before, what its origins are,

7 anything; we see a document pop up on the screen for the first time. I

8 think that is fundamentally unfair.

9 In connection with the preparation for cross-examination, Your

10 Honours, let's remember this: By the time a Prosecution witness comes

11 into the courtroom, there has been extensive disclosure. All that

12 witness's prior statements have been disclosed to the Defence. Numerous

13 documents have been provided. We have provided already a list of the

14 documents that will be used with the witness. They have this now, they

15 have it now for the witnesses in July. They know, with a few exceptions,

16 inevitably, there will be something that we missed that will be added, but

17 for the most part these Defence teams now know the exhibits that we will

18 use with witnesses who are coming in July. That's reflected in the chart

19 that we provided to the Chamber. So they have the prior statements, they

20 have the Rule 65 ter summary that tells what the witness is going to say,

21 basically, and they have all the documentation.

22 Now with all respect to Defence counsel, I respect their function,

23 I respect the amount of work involved; at the same time, they have a very

24 good idea when that witness comes into the courtroom what will basically

25 be said. Yes, there are sometimes a bit of variation, a little bit -- a

Page 1223

1 little darker shade of grey, a little bit of this, a little bit of that,

2 but fundamentally the witness's testimony is basically known, anticipated.

3 The cross-examination is prepared -- I'm sure, I'm confident that the

4 Defence begin their cross-examination preparation well before the witness

5 ever takes the stand.

6 Now, in that situation, Your Honour, I think it is fundamentally

7 unfair to the Prosecution to be receiving these exhibits one by one,

8 literally as they pop up on the screen in front us. And we would ask to

9 be -- we would ask to be provided the cross-examination exhibits one day

10 before the cross-examination is expected to begin, and that is being done

11 in other cases. In the Vukovar case that is going on right now, the

12 Defence teams are required -- the Defence is required to provide their

13 exhibits one day in advance. I do not think that is unreasonable. As I

14 said several days ago, the Prosecution, Your Honour -- Your Honours, is

15 also entitled to favour trial. It has nothing to do with the burden of

16 proven. Of course we have the burden of proof and we will meet that

17 burden of proof, but we're also entitled to a fair trial and it is not

18 fair for documents to be sprung on us for the first time, there has been

19 no disclosure, we don't see these documents, and all of a sudden a

20 document shows up on the screen for the first time and we are expected to

21 deal with it. I think that's fundamentally unfair, Your Honour. Thank

22 you.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Just one question to

24 you, Mr. Karnavas. In the United States - I say that specifically, in the

25 United States - during cross-examination do Defence teams present

Page 1224

1 documents at the last minute or are they under the obligation under

2 federal rules to submit the document to the Prosecution one day before?

3 One day or two before.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Excellent question. Excellent question.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As all the questions by the

6 Judges.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Absolutely. It's at the moment I deliver it. I

8 have absolutely no obligation, none, zero obligation to provide the

9 Prosecution in advance. It's the moment that I stand up there and I

10 present it.

11 Now, because we're dealing with a jury, there's always the issue

12 of a foundation, and sometimes if we're going to have some problems we may

13 deal with that outside the presence of the jury but I have absolutely no

14 obligation to present that.

15 And if I might just add a retort to what Mr. Scott said, in other

16 cases, unlike the one that he pointed, in the Halilovic case, for

17 instance, it was just popping up at the moment that they were introducing

18 the document. And I dare say it is fundamentally unfair for me to be

19 showing my hand in advance because he's going to do something with that

20 document. That's the problem.

21 I share, you know, his concerns, and my heart goes out to him,

22 but, you know, he's got a lot of help. He's got a lot of help.

23 Now, if I could just give you an example, Your Honour. We left

24 yesterday the courtroom. We went back and it was until midnight that I

25 was working to figure out which documents I'm going to be using. Here's

Page 1225

1 the problem: Yes, they provided us this list. They provided it late. I

2 don't want to go into that issue, but needless to say, we got it rather

3 late. I don't have the sort of team that can prepare weeks in advance.

4 My nose is just above the water. We're getting ready for two very

5 important witnesses. One gave six testimonies. Imagine now how -- what

6 my weekend is going to be like. I'm not crying sour grapes, but they can

7 cry me a river when it comes to, you know, the difficulties they have.

8 They have no idea. Let them come on this side of the bench and figure out

9 how it is. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very quickly, because we could

11 spend hours on this. Mr. Kovacic.

12 MR. KOVACIC: If you are interested, and then you just tell me

13 whether you are or I will not talk further. Since you ask what is the

14 situation in US law, perhaps it would be interesting to hear what is,

15 let's say, the criminal proceeding law in Croatia, one of the involved

16 countries. And I guess, as much as I know, it is more or less the same in

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, because most laws originated from the former, which

18 was quite the same one.

19 If you want me to explain, I will. If you don't, I will not.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go ahead quickly.

21 MR. KOVACIC: I think, Your Honour, in our criminal proceedings

22 there is no obligation for the Defence to produce any evidence, any

23 document to the Prosecution before the moment the Defence choose to do so.

24 So whenever I as a lawyer, as a Defence counsel, choose to present the

25 document either to the witness, Prosecution witness or Defence witness,

Page 1226

1 which we may not call that in this these proceedings because there the

2 witnesses are always witnesses of the Court, but, however, one of them is

3 positive to you, one is not. So I can take a document from my bag and put

4 it on the table in the very moment of the testimony. No restrictions on

5 that.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Nozica.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would just

8 briefly like to support what my colleagues before me have already said,

9 and to add that the Prosecutor told us today about his obligations as

10 provided for by the Rules, and this Prosecutor is duty-bound to disclose

11 material to us. But I'd like to indicate something that happened

12 yesterday which can objectively be a great problem.

13 If we were to disclose our documents 24 hours ahead, we could

14 jeopardise our own Defence. And yesterday, we had prepared a certain

15 number of exhibits. Had we provided them to the Prosecutor earlier on, we

16 would have disclosed our main lines of Defence, our Defence case to the

17 Prosecutor. So yesterday we did not disclose this because the direct or,

18 rather, the examination-in-chief went in a completely different direction.

19 It did not follow the direction we expected it to take. And today we're

20 going to examine the witness in chief, we're going to continue the

21 cross-examination, so to disclose our exhibits in advance to the

22 Prosecutor could seriously jeopardise the rights of our clients. And for

23 this reason, and I'd like to associate myself with the demands made by my

24 colleagues, that we be allowed to disclose our evidence when we present

25 it. And if there are any problems in establishing the origin of the

Page 1227

1 documents, as you yourself said, this can be done subsequently through

2 various submissions, et cetera.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall discuss this among

4 Judges, and we will tell you what to do. In the meantime, let's have the

5 witness in, because we are already half an hour late.

6 Yes, Mr. Scott.

7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I can use the time efficiently. One

8 or two items as the witness comes in the courtroom. Just a final comment.

9 I don't know how many times in the last 12 years I've been told that US

10 practice does not govern this Tribunal. I always thought this Tribunal

11 was trying to do better than US practice. I say that as a US lawyer

12 myself. So I don't think this Tribunal is governed by, controlled by US

13 practice at all.

14 Secondly, Your Honour, this witness will also -- I want to

15 supplement the earlier references. This witness will also give evidence

16 relevant to count 2 and count 3 and count 26, which were not originally

17 listed in the preparation papers, and his evidence is also relevant to

18 paragraph 113 of the amended indictment. Thank you.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott. Did you

21 want to add something?

22 MR. SCOTT: No. That's it, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Good morning, sir.

24 Before your solemn declaration I would like to have your surname, first

25 name, date of birth, your occupation in 1992, 1993, and possibly your

Page 1228

1 present occupation.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Thank

3 you for those warm words. My name is Ratko Pejanovic. I am from Mostar.

4 During 1991 to 1995, I was both the commander of the firefighting unit and

5 a firefighter myself in Mostar. Today I'm retired, and I'm here before

6 you.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What is your birth

8 date?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I was born on the 14th

10 of January, 1944, in Mostar.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question before you

12 read the solemn declaration. Have you ever been a witness before a

13 national or international court on the events that took place in your town

14 in 1992 or until 1994, or is this the first time you're being a witness?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the first time

16 that I find myself in the role of witness before an international court of

17 law.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Please

19 read the solemn declaration.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 Thank you, sir. Please sit down.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the Prosecutor puts his

Page 1229

1 questions to you, let me inform you on this: As you know, your testimony

2 is scheduled today and tomorrow. You will first answer questions by the

3 Prosecution. Once the Prosecution has finished, the Defence counsel will

4 put questions to you. This is what we call in legal language

5 cross-examination. There may be a re-direct examination by the

6 Prosecution, and the four Judges before you could at any time, if they

7 deem it necessary, ask questions of you.

8 You've just made your solemn declaration. You're supposed to tell

9 the truth. You are not supposed to tell lies, because this is a crime

10 that can be punished by this Tribunal.

11 If you feel tired, if you're not feeling well, say so straight

12 away so that we can have a break, because it's quite tiring to testify for

13 hours on end. And if you were to feel the slightest problem, do not

14 hesitate to tell me so. Everybody here has breaks from time to time,

15 every 90 minutes. So we'll have a 15-minute break first, and then you

16 will have a lunch break, 50 minutes - it's not the usual time - and then

17 we will resume in the afternoon.

18 If at any moment you want to ask me something, do not hesitate.

19 We are here to make your testimony easily -- as easy as possible. So if

20 you need to put a question, just put it.

21 Without further ado, I give the floor to Mr. Scott, who is going

22 to put his questions to you.

23 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Examination by Mr. Scott:

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Pejanovic.

Page 1230

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. Just to briefly touch on an item or two that Mr. President has

3 already touched upon, you were born in Mostar in January, 1944, and have

4 lived there all your life; is that correct, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And by ethnicity or nationality you are a Serb; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you have spent most of your working life working as a -- or

9 did spend it as a fireman or a firefighter; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you first start working as a professional firefighter in

12 Mostar?

13 A. If I may be allowed to digress for a moment. In July, 1991 -- no,

14 I apologise. In 1981 I began working as the commander of the volunteer

15 firefighting unit and an instructor of the firefighting association which,

16 at the time, had 38 units.

17 Q. In the interests of time, sir, I want to jump quickly to the time

18 period 1991, 1992. Can you describe for the Judges what the firefighting

19 organisation was in the city of Mostar up -- in the time 1991 up until

20 approximately the middle of 1992. How many firefighting units were there

21 in the city? How was it organised?

22 A. Since before the war, a long time before the war, the fire brigade

23 association of Mostar had 13 firefighting units. In 1991, sometime in

24 September, with the arrival of the reservists in Mostar, certain things

25 had to be changed radically, because many of the voluntary units in town,

Page 1231

1 especially in the work collectives, ceased functioning, and it was just

2 the professional units that continued working, the professional

3 firefighting company and the Mostar volunteers.

4 We continued working until April, sometime around April, 1992, and

5 in that period of time, in view of the bad relations in town, because

6 incidents began in the cafes in town, hand grenades were thrown in front

7 of the courtyard of the Orthodox church, for example; there would be

8 machine-gun fire during the night. I don't know where, but I know I could

9 hear it, because I live nearby, and this was terrible because it was at a

10 distance of 300 metres as the crow flies.

11 Anyway, the fire brigade, the firefighters at that time had the

12 task of doing duty work in shifts, especially in our volunteer

13 association. There would be two firefighters on duty and one driver per

14 shift, and one of those three individuals was the duty officer by the

15 telephone. This was duty work in the unit itself. We tried to maintain

16 the equipment and everything because very often people stormed shops and

17 things like that. Incidents broke out. So that is why we organised

18 ourselves in this way, and that went up to the 18th or, to be exact, 19th

19 of April, 1992, when a meeting was held with the -- all the commanders of

20 the units and staffs of the Civil Defence, civilian protection, and I was

21 invited to attend because at that time, in addition to my professional

22 duties as commander of the firefighting unit, I was also the commander of

23 the civilian protection unit. And already at that time the need was seen

24 for the service to be organised in a different manner for the simple

25 reason that within the composition of the civilian protection there were

Page 1232

1 two detachments that were associated, and there were two firefighting

2 units within that detachment. The general call to mobilisation was put

3 out but none of the members responded, and we -- I saw how we could

4 organise the service in order to maintain a minimum of manpower in the

5 unit and allow the unit to work when needed in town. And my proposal was

6 this: That we take over part of the people that, according to their

7 military schedule written down in their military booklet, should become

8 part of the firefighters of Mostar. There were very few people who

9 belonged to other structures. So in this way, I was able to set up a team

10 of some 30 men by pooling our resources, and at my personal request I

11 received a written order from the civilian defence staff which was signed

12 at that time by the president or, rather, the commander of the Civil

13 Defence staff, Mr. Roko Markovina [phoen]. Finally, at the end of that

14 order, along with some other documents I published in a book that I wrote

15 in 1997 and published.

16 Q. All right. Very well. Let me clarify a couple of points in your

17 answer before we proceed further. You made reference, that in

18 approximately the first part or mid-1992 there was increasing conflict and

19 tension in Mostar. Now, was this conflict between at that time Serbs and

20 non-Serbs primarily?

21 A. Yes. Yes. Unfortunately, that is how it was.

22 Q. And did you feel -- did you -- were you the recipient or did you

23 feel any of this tension or pressure being a Serb yourself, sir, in Mostar

24 at that time?

25 A. Well, to be quite frank, I myself did not have any serious

Page 1233

1 problems, although there were some provocations. They said why don't I

2 bring out my weapons? Where are my weapons? Did I have any weapons? And

3 one night when I was on duty with my other neighbours in the street I

4 lived in, because each street had established this duty work, and when I

5 think about that, I don't know why I did this duty work, because I had no

6 weapons, but anyway, I was present there and did these shifts together

7 with my neighbours.

8 As I had already been on duty for 24 hours in the firefighting

9 unit, I took with me a little walkie-talkie because I thought that if

10 there was an interruption in telephone communications I could have

11 communication with my men, and if need be they could call me up. And on

12 one occasion we had a code. I was 101, for example, number 101, and they

13 would call me up not to use names, not to have to use names. And one

14 night some of the neighbours around me, they were mostly Serbs, said, "Why

15 have you got this walkie-talkie? What are you doing in the station

16 there?" And that was the last time I did duty with my neighbours. I was

17 with my firefighters for 24 hours after that and I would just go home to

18 have a change of clothing and refresh myself and things like that while

19 you were able to do that.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to slow down.

21 Thank you.


23 Q. If you received that translation, sir, if you could possibly slow

24 down just a little bit. The interpreters and those in the courtroom would

25 appreciate it.

Page 1234

1 A. I didn't hear that, but, yes, thank you for cautioning me. Thank

2 you.

3 Q. Please. Again, sir, to clarify, you said a few moments ago, you

4 said, "They said, Why don't you bring out your weapons? Where are my

5 weapons?" You made several references to "they." Who is the "they"

6 you're referring to?

7 A. I said they were my neighbours. For the most part Serbs, because

8 in that street where we lived, there was an ethnic mix of inhabitants.

9 There were Bosniaks and Serbs and Croats. A little fewer Croats, perhaps,

10 but at that point in time we were all there together and we were all doing

11 duty work together. And generally that provocation - and I consider it to

12 be a provocation to this day - it came from the mouths of -- well, my

13 compatriots, if I can put it that way; the Serbs.

14 Q. All right. And you mentioned reference -- you made a reference to

15 an organisation called civilian protection. Can you tell us a bit more

16 about that, just very briefly, please, about what that organisation was.

17 Was that part of the municipal government or what was -- what was civilian

18 protection?

19 A. Well, yes. Civilian protection was a component part of the

20 municipal government. It existed from previous times. It was not a

21 novelty that was introduced. It existed as part of the reorganisation of

22 the country, and it had as its aim to rally around it units and formations

23 which were able, with their materiel, technical equipment, and manpower,

24 to intervene in moments of crisis such as large-scale disasters,

25 earthquakes, floods possibly, large-scale fires, and so on.

Page 1235

1 The structure was mixed. There were units to deal with the

2 situation, decontamination units, and in this joint detachment there was a

3 local service, two detachments with one firefighting unit in each. As

4 such, we were called upon at times when the need arose for any defence to

5 be organised, defence or protection when an aggression was launched.

6 Q. Let me direct your attention, please, to approximately the 31st of

7 July, 1992. Did your position change at that time? You had been

8 commander of the firefighting unit. Did your position change around July

9 of 1992?

10 A. Unfortunately, yes. And it's very painful for me to stress this,

11 only for the fact that I was a Serb. On the 15th of July, 1992, a man

12 turned up. I know his surname was Jugo, I don't know his first name. But

13 quite simply he came and said to me that I was no longer the unit

14 commander as of that day and that to replace me would be Meho Kekic. He

15 would take my place. He was a young man who was trained in the

16 firefighting unit of which I was a commander and trainer/instructor. He

17 was a young man. But that's what happened.

18 And I also have to stress that at that point in time, another man

19 was supposed to replace me, a commander who was a Croat, and his name was

20 Miroslav Mrdjo. But within the staff, two Bosniaks were opposed to that

21 appointment, and they demanded that it be a representative of the Bosniak

22 ethnic group who would be the commander of the unit, because in other

23 structures changes had already been made.

24 So that is how I was replaced as commander of the unit by Mr. Meho

25 Kekic.

Page 1236

1 Q. Did you have any understanding as to why you were dismissed or

2 replaced as commander at that time?

3 A. To be quite frank, yes, I did. I knew very clearly why that

4 happened. And since I was replaced only by word of mouth, without any

5 written evidence, and I had taken up my duties as commander and was

6 appointed as commander quite clearly on the basis of a written order, I

7 asked to be received by the president of the civilian protection at that

8 time, who was Mr. Josip Skutor. And I have to say quite frankly that I

9 needed a lot of time to set up the appointment and to talk to the man.

10 When I did get to talk to him, I asked him that he issue me a

11 paper on my dismissal and replacement, just as I had received my

12 appointment papers when I came to lead the unit. And I also asked for a

13 statement of reasons why I was being replaced, but I never received an

14 answer. I was never told the reasons for my replacement, although it was

15 clear to me why, and I published what I did get from them in writing later

16 on in my book.

17 Q. You said it was clear to you why. What was -- what was the

18 reason?

19 A. The reason was exclusively my ethnic affiliation, because at that

20 time, generally speaking, in town everyone who was not [as interpreted] a

21 Croat or a Serb was replaced, or all things Croatian and Serbian were

22 replaced.

23 Q. Can you tell the Judges where you -- you continued to work,

24 though. You weren't the commander, but you continued to work as the -- in

25 the fire department or in the firefighting unit; is that correct?

Page 1237

1 A. Yes, that is correct. But it's also correct, and I have to say

2 again quite bitterly, that I remained in my duty as a firefighter, and I

3 felt like a clay pigeon. It was only a matter of time who would pull the

4 trigger first. And you -- it's a terrible realisation when you were the

5 creator of a unit that saw the light of day exclusively thanks to your

6 efforts, that you are just somebody who wasn't allowed to drive the car,

7 to take up a walkie-talkie, to report when a fire had broken out or to

8 communicate with their colleagues in the field if they needed assistance

9 and so on.

10 Q. Sir --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In line 18 it should

12 say everyone who was a Croat or a Serb was replaced, without the "not."

13 Thank you.


15 Q. In July, 1992, sir, as part of the Mostar government, can you tell

16 the Judges what political party or organisation controlled the Mostar

17 government as of the summer of 1992?

18 A. I have to mention that on the 30th of June, 1992, there was a

19 military coup effected by the HVO, and the legally elected government was

20 completely replaced. That is to say everything that happened and that was

21 won at the elections, beginning with the lord mayor, and later everybody

22 else, was replaced and military officials replaced them and took the key

23 positions in town. And the president of the HVO, at least that is what it

24 says in the signature, was Jadranko Topic.

25 Q. When you say that everything that happened, everyone that had won

Page 1238

1 the elections beginning with the lord mayor and later everybody who was

2 replaced, who replaced these previously elected officials? From what

3 group or organisation or what political parties would these new people,

4 these new officials come?

5 A. Well, we have to accept one particular fact, and that is that a

6 point in time three national parties won the election and took over power

7 in town; the HDZ, SDS, and SDA. When the Serbs left town, not to say that

8 the SDS left town, all that remained was -- there was no SDS. So what

9 remained was the SDA and HDZ. And the HDZ had the main say. As I say, it

10 was them who conducted the military coup when they replaced the legally

11 elected people, the leading figures, beginning with the lord mayor

12 onwards. And then the town administration, municipal administration, was

13 left without one ethnic group. It just disappeared. And the Serbs that

14 remained remained as a bargaining chip, and that -- a population of that

15 nature.

16 I remained within the unit at that point, but I told you what

17 great -- high price I had to pay for that.

18 Q. This Mr. Skutor who came to you and dismissed you as commander,

19 what ethnic group was he from?

20 A. He's a Croat. He was a representative of the civilian protection

21 in the government in Mostar at the time.

22 Q. Now, going forward, you remained in the fire department. Did you

23 -- can you tell the Judges where the firefighting building or location

24 was where you worked at that time.

25 A. Up until the 11th of May, 1992, the fire department was in Braca

Page 1239

1 Brkica Street number 4, opposite the department store called Razvitak. On

2 the 11th of May, 1992, my assessment was that the Serbs were exerting a

3 lot of pressure on the left bank and that more and more people were

4 leaving the left bank, and the fire brigade also participated in the

5 evacuation of people on a number of occasions. We helped those who wanted

6 to leave the left bank leave. We evacuated them.

7 On the 11th of May, I went to my flat. I came across a Serbian

8 unit in my street, and afterwards, I believe that I would never have

9 stayed on in such -- in such conditions. Part of the unit had already

10 been moved to the right bank. I told them about the situation, and at

11 that point in time there was someone called Miodrag Kandic, a Serb, there.

12 There were two brothers Dostovic, Edo and Nerko. They were Bosniaks.

13 Four of us remained there, and the others were on the right bank of the

14 river. I said I didn't know whether we could carry on living there, but

15 we could have surrendered to the Serbs, surrendered all our equipment to

16 the Serbs, we could have gone over to the Serbs, but I just cross the

17 Neretva because this idea didn't even occur to me, because that area was

18 attacked by snipers, and that will be the case for days.

19 We moved over to the right bank, and then we found accommodation

20 with colleagues of ours in a firefighting company, and we then asked to

21 move to another location. We moved to the institute of the construction

22 university. We were there for a while and operated from that area. We

23 went to put fires out from that area. We knew exactly which area we

24 should cover in case fire broke out, and we remained in that location up

25 until the month of September. We then returned to our previous premises.

Page 1240

1 But on the 18th of June, 1992, we were in the pupils' home as well as the

2 location at the left bank. We had these two locations, and at this other

3 location we had the group of five men, and every day we'd cross over and

4 provide people with food and logistics support. Every two or three days

5 the shift would change. If there was a lot of pressure on the right bank,

6 we would stay on for seven days.

7 So from the 18th of June, there were two locations that we had; on

8 the left bank in our old premises, and on the right bank in the pupil's

9 home. That was up until September. And after September we returned to

10 our initial premises.

11 Q. All right. A couple of points before we move to 1993, sir. When

12 you talk -- it may be early enough in the trial, but just to be clear,

13 when you talk about -- when you say the right bank, you're preferring --

14 you're referring primarily to west -- what might be called West Mostar; is

15 that correct?

16 A. Well, yes. I don't know how to put it, but our base was in Brace

17 Brkica Street number 4, opposite the Razvitak department store. That was

18 our base. But if we had to look for a new location, a new base, then I

19 can't really say that we moved to the eastern part of town or the northern

20 part of town. We went to the right bank for a certain purpose; to

21 preserve the people and the equipment, and to an extent we were

22 successful.

23 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, my question was actually more basic than that, just

24 by clarification of terminology. When you refer to the left bank and the

25 right bank, I just want the record to be clear and to assist the Judges.

Page 1241

1 When you say the right bank, is that a reference to what might also be

2 called West Mostar?

3 A. Yes, yes. That's certain.

4 Q. And when you say the left bank, that is a reference to what also

5 might be called East Mostar?

6 A. The eastern part of Mostar, yes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you have this map,

8 9517. It might be easier to submit this to the witness for more clarity.

9 MR. SCOTT: We are going to get into that map rather extensively,

10 Your Honour. I had not planned on getting to it just yet. If I might --

11 with the Court's permission, if I might delay getting into that for a few

12 more months. I think his testimony - I hope - is now clear on that point.

13 Q. Sir, you -- you told us so far this morning that by the summer of

14 1992, the HDZ -- what was then the HDZ, the Croat political party, had

15 taken control of the town and that most other people -- the previously

16 elected officials were -- had been -- had been dismissed or replaced. I

17 just want to refer back to your testimony. And for counsel and the Court,

18 this is at page 24, line 17. You talked about everyone in town "who was

19 not a Croat or a Serb" being replaced. Was it all the Croats and Serbs

20 being replaced or was it non-Croats being replaced?

21 A. I'll try and repeat what I said a minute ago. I said that the

22 legal authorities of the town of Mostar were completely replaced. Even

23 the mayor, who was a Croat, he was also replaced. He was replaced too.

24 The fact that he was a Croat was of not much assistance to him. He was

25 replaced because he probably didn't toe the HDZ line. And all the others

Page 1242

1 who shared the mayor's ideas, Mr. Gagro Milivoj, for example, were

2 replaced. That was also the case with the Bosniaks who didn't accept the

3 policies pursued by the HDZ at that time.

4 So regardless of the ethnic group they belonged to, if you weren't

5 part of their team, if you didn't follow their ideas, you would be

6 replaced.

7 And I apologise. I said that since the Serbs left the town, they

8 were no longer there. There were military authorities in the town who

9 stayed on, and all the others who stayed on, well, they had to make do as

10 best they could.

11 Q. Now, before we go on to 1993, let me direct your attention to an

12 event in 1992. Did anyone attempt to take your vehicle away from you?

13 A. Yes, only on one occasion. I found out about certain things from

14 my daughter, and I bought two and two together, because at one point in

15 time she started crying. She said, "Dad, please take care of yourself.

16 Don't forget that I'm the only person you have," and that really affected

17 me. So I didn't really know what my daughter knew at the time. I said

18 I'm now doing something for the benefit of the town, and naturally she

19 said, "What good will that do if I find myself in a difficult situation?"

20 And then she said, "Dad, are you aware of the fact they're following you

21 in town?" I had no idea that that was the case. She then mentioned the

22 detail.

23 When I put everything together, I realised that the child was

24 right. She was with her aunt in Siroki Brijeg at the time and she would

25 have obtained information from the young people that she socialised with.

Page 1243

1 Earlier on I was escorting a member of ours because at one point

2 in time he asked for me to provide him with 10 firefighters in the

3 aluminium institute. I took him to part of the Rudnik -- to part of

4 Rudnik, which is about three kilometres away from our location. It's in

5 the western part of town. And when we were in the vicinity of Rudnik,

6 where he was to report to, there was a nest or there was a location with

7 obstacles. There were two uniformed men wearing the insignia Territorial

8 Defence, they stopped me, and they said -- or one of them said that I

9 should get out of the car. It wasn't my car, I said. How was I to leave

10 the car? They said, Just get out and let's have your driving licence and

11 then you can go.

12 And then a man of average height approached the person who had

13 ordered me to do this, and he said, You know that we've agreed that you

14 should leave firefighting vehicles and ambulance alone. Return the

15 documents to this man. I had already given this member my driving

16 licence. He returned the document, and this man then said, Sit down and

17 drive off.

18 I then took the young man away about 800 metres further. I said

19 that he only had another 200 metres to go, and at that point I turned

20 around. I didn't go to that part of town again until we moved to the

21 other part of town and set -- found a premises in the pupils' home. We

22 then had to fight fires when fires broke out.

23 Q. Did you know the name or come to know the name of this person who

24 confronted you and wanted your papers and equipment?

25 A. No. But I could point out that before that event occurred, since

Page 1244

1 the firefighters would often provide people with water during peacetime if

2 there was no water supply in certain areas, there was a reservoir of water

3 that had been ordered, and usually you would take the address of the

4 person who had requested water. So the person who had ordered water then

5 said he was located in an area where there was no water supply, in the

6 direction of Krusevo. He said that he would wait at Banovac. He would

7 wait for the reservoir, for water to arrive there. It's in the direction

8 of the western part of town. Naturally the driver received an order from

9 the commander, he drove the truck of water to Banovac. When he arrived

10 there, two men were waiting for him with rifles. They took him out of the

11 vehicle and took the vehicle away and the vehicle ended up in Siroki

12 Brijeg. And even a few years ago, the problem still hadn't been solved.

13 I don't know if the vehicle has been returned now.

14 This was a situation of anarchy, and all means were used to

15 appropriate equipment from a certain environment. It didn't matter to

16 whom the equipment belonged to, all they wanted to do was to steal

17 equipment.

18 Q. And again for the purposes of the record, I need to clarify when

19 you say "they." You just said "all they wanted to do was to steal

20 equipment." Who is the "they" you're referring to?

21 A. Well, a while ago I said that they had the chequerboard emblem on

22 their left sleeves, and it said Territorial Defence beneath that

23 chequerboard. I later assumed that they were HVO forces, since they had

24 Territorial Defence insignia on them.

25 Q. Which of the armed forces in your experience in the area of Mostar

Page 1245

1 at that time wore chequerboard insignia?

2 A. Well, look, on the whole the HVO, and any men who were part of the

3 HVO, regardless of the nationality of those men, they would have such an

4 insignia. I have my civilian protection booklet. The old ones were taken

5 away, but they issued new ones with an introduction in the Croatian

6 language and with the chequerboard emblem. You have the Croatian flag and

7 then you have the chequerboard on these booklets. So that means that

8 civilian protection members who were part of those formations had these

9 documents.

10 Q. Can you -- can you assist --

11 A. We had these emblems in our booklets.

12 Q. Can you assist the Chamber, please: When were these new documents

13 and papers with the Croatian flag and the Croatian insignia, when were

14 these papers issued to you?

15 A. It was around June, the end of June, or in July. I couldn't tell

16 you when exactly. I really don't remember --

17 Q. Which year?

18 A. -- but I think it was towards the end of July. In 1992.

19 Q. Sir, I want to direct your attention now to early 1993, and can

20 you tell the Chamber if anything happened in terms of the reorganisation

21 of the firefighting units in Mostar at that time in January of 1993?

22 A. Well, yes. Yes. You could put it that way. You could say that

23 they were reorganised, because on the 22nd of January, 1993, a decision

24 was taken according to which the fire brigade should be reorganised. It

25 was very important for the operations of the Mostar firefighting units.

Page 1246

1 We were informed of this decision around the 28th, but the decision was

2 taken on the 23rd of January, I believe.

3 The decision states that the Mostar firefighting organisation

4 shall make available all its equipment to the professional firefighting

5 company. The Niva vehicle should be provided to the civilian protection

6 staff, to the head of the staff, Mr. Josip Skutor. The firefighting unit

7 would be dismantled and would be mobilised when necessary. How to

8 mobilise a unit to intervene, if you've taken its equipment, how can it

9 intervene in such a case? What sort of function can such a unit have?

10 Q. Do you recall the name of the official who issued this decision?

11 A. Of course. Jadran Topic. That's the signature you can see. And

12 I've published this document, or the document appears in the book that I

13 published.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I could have the assistance of the

15 Registry, please, to display Exhibit P09511. 9511.

16 Q. Can you tell us what that document is, sir. If you've seen it

17 before and what it is.

18 A. Yes. I've had this document in my hands and it appears in my

19 book. And this confirms everything that I said. The Mostar fire brigade

20 is being ordered to provide the fire brigade company with its equipment.

21 They have to provide Mr. Josip Skutor with equipment, and the unit is

22 being dismantled.

23 I have to point out that we never carried out this order. We

24 didn't want to carry it out.

25 Q. Why not?

Page 1247

1 A. We didn't want to carry it out for the simple reason that all of a

2 sudden 30 men would have been left without any work. Anyone could have

3 captured them and organised them in a way that they saw fit. But this was

4 equipment that belonged to the volunteer fire brigade. So I won't be

5 modest now, but I must say that in -- as far as 80 per cent of the

6 equipment that they were requesting is concerned, I personally, together

7 with my colleagues, gave up part of our salaries to obtain that equipment.

8 We paid for that equipment, that firefighting equipment, ourselves, and as

9 a result, I was against this decision, and we were unanimous in rejecting

10 this decision.

11 Q. Now, sir, around this same time in January of 1993, did -- were

12 there any changes made in the way that your daily food ration was provided

13 to you?

14 A. Yes. They issued this order. We refused to comply with it. On

15 the following day, when our people went to the northern camp, which is

16 where we received logistics support and food from, they were simply told

17 that they could no longer obtain food there. So we then went to army

18 members, armija members, informed them of the fact, and they provided us

19 with food and logistics support just as they provided such things to their

20 own men.

21 Q. Once again, Mr. Pejanovic, I need your assistance, please. When

22 you say "they issued this order," who again was the "they"?

23 A. Well, it's now quite clear that "they" refers to the Croatian

24 Republic of Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. It says

25 Jadranko Topic at the bottom of the document. It's quite clear he was the

Page 1248

1 president of the HVO. They also refer to decisions taken in 1992, and to

2 an extent in 1991. And that was prior to all these events in that area.

3 Prior to all these events, there were preparations for the organisation of

4 Herceg-Bosna. And this can be quite clearly seen in this document.

5 Q. Forgive me, sir. My question perhaps was not clear enough. When

6 I referred to just now about the -- I was talking about the situation with

7 the food, and when the situation changed and someone -- someone, "they,"

8 changed the situation in reference to your daily food ration, who was

9 "they" or what organisation was "they"?

10 A. I'll repeat what I said. It's quite clear that they are HVO

11 members. It's quite clear that this formation had already organised

12 itself in Herceg-Bosna. As to who is behind this, as to who is behind the

13 person who signed the document, Jadranko Topic, I don't know. It would be

14 difficult for me to provide anyone else's name, but you can see that

15 Jadranko Topic is concerned. If you have a look at this document, he was

16 probably someone who had been authorised to act in Herceg-Bosna.

17 Q. Did you -- were you ever given any reason why the HVO stopped

18 providing you food, the firefighters in your unit food in January 1993?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, Mr. President, I would --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I would kindly ask that the question be rephrased.

22 He's referring to Herceg-Bosna. He's not saying who it was. He refers to

23 Mr. Topic. The question now about -- posed by Mr. Scott is that the HVO.

24 So I would ask that the question be rephrased. It assumes a fact that's

25 definitely not in evidence, at least at this point in time.

Page 1249

1 MR. SCOTT: I'll be happy to rephrase it, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Mr. Scott. Please

3 go ahead.


5 Q. The -- did you receive any explanation or reason from the

6 Herceg-Bosna organisation at that time as to why you were no longer be

7 providing -- provided food?

8 A. No. We didn't receive any explanations. This is not something we

9 could check, but it was quite clear to us. We refused to execute their

10 order or their decision, so naturally we were punished by not being

11 provided with logistic support. That's quite logical. But once again, it

12 was impossible for us to verify why this had taken place.

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I have a couple more questions on this

14 topic, if we could continue. Then we would finish that before the break,

15 or I'm in the Chamber's hands.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Go ahead.


18 Q. Sir, I would like, with the Registry's assistance, for you to

19 please now be shown Exhibit P09512.

20 Can you tell us, please, what that document is.

21 A. I think that the document speaks for itself. You can quite

22 clearly see that this is the Croatian Defence Council as a component part

23 of the Republic of Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,

24 which orders that the voluntary firefighting association should be

25 deleted. And when we received this decision that we were no longer part

Page 1250

1 of the civilian protection of Mostar, I have to note that as of the 23rd

2 of January, when we refused to carry out the decision by which they had

3 decided to do this, we were no longer within the composition of that

4 formation. And this was officially written on the 3rd of May.

5 Please remember this date, the 3rd of May. Make a note of it,

6 because subsequent events will be very important when you look at this

7 date, the 3rd of May.

8 Q. Now, this Mr. Skutor, who is on the document Exhibit 9512, is this

9 the same Mr. Skutor who had previously removed you from your command

10 position?

11 A. Yes. Yes, it's the same person.

12 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, that completes my questions on this

13 topic, if the Court would like to take a break at this time.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As I told you, we

15 will have a 15-minute break. We shall resume around quarter to eleven.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can now continue with the

19 hearing. You may take the floor.


21 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, right before the break you -- you exhorted us to

22 the be very mindful of the date of the 3rd of May, 1993, and I indeed now

23 want to take you to May, 1993, and particularly direct your attention to

24 the 9th of May. Can you tell us, please, what happened on that day, and

25 if there's something that you want to tell the Chamber that happened

Page 1251

1 sometime also in early May, the 3rd of May, or between the 3rd of May and

2 the 9th of May, please do so.

3 A. A little earlier on, I said that I wanted to focus on this date as

4 it's very important date. It was the 3rd of May. And on the 9th of May,

5 a conflict broke out between the HVO and the ABiH, or between the Croats

6 and the Muslims. That's when the conflict broke out.

7 There was a decision on the 23rd of January, according to which

8 the Mostar fire brigade was to hand over its equipment to the firefighting

9 company, and it was supposed to hand over the vehicle, its vehicle, to the

10 civilian protection. With this decision, I think their objective was

11 quite specifically stated.

12 Now, I'm asking you, what would have happened if we had carried

13 out that order dated the 23rd of January? And if we take into

14 consideration the 3rd of May decision, on 9th of May, all the citizens of

15 Mostar would have had to go down to the river to collect water in the

16 event of difficulties. So, luckily, we didn't comply with the order.

17 Let me just paraphrase this. But we managed to provide an

18 elementary form of protection to the town by using our equipment. We

19 could provide them with a certain amount of water. And that's why I said

20 that the 3rd of May was an extremely important date.

21 Q. Now, let me direct you further to specifically the 9th of May.

22 Can you tell us what you recall about that day. What happened to you and

23 to the firefighting unit in East Mostar on that day? Or West Mostar, but

24 wherever you were.

25 A. At that time, we were already in Brkica Street, opposite the

Page 1252

1 Razvitak department store. The unit was formed of the night-shift. I was

2 in the night shift from Saturday to Sunday. On Sunday I was supposed to

3 hand over my duties to someone else. At about quarter to five in the

4 morning, shooting broke out. We were lying down. We couldn't really

5 determine where the shooting was coming from or who was shooting. It took

6 us a while to wake up and to come to our senses. We then realised that

7 the shooting was coming from the direction of the Bulevar. That is in

8 fact where the demarcation line was established later on.

9 I agreed on a -- taking certain action with my colleague. We

10 thought that -- in fact, we thought that the consequences wouldn't be very

11 serious. So I went to the firefighting vehicle to take some water,

12 because we had decided to make some coffee. And then I noticed that in

13 front of our premises, 20 metres further down the road, there was a

14 private house, and I could see some smoke coming out of the house. I told

15 the men, let's forget the coffee and let's put the fire out. So we set

16 off to put the fire out. But while we were putting the fire out, a sniper

17 opened fire on us and he hit and penetrated two tubes, two pipes. When we

18 saw that the shooting was quite frequent, we tried to move the

19 firefighting vehicle, because opposite the road from where we were working

20 there was an old facility, and in the basement of that building there were

21 radio amateurs. And we tried to move the vehicle behind that building to

22 protect it. We managed to continue using the hose to put the fire out.

23 We also used certain items that we had found to partially protect the

24 pipes.

25 That was the first fire we tried to put out that day. In the

Page 1253

1 course of that day there was an entire series of fires. And one of the

2 fires I would like to underline was the fire at the police station, which

3 was down by the market in the premises of the ship association, a sort of

4 marine association. Naturally they had logistics support and weapons,

5 food, and ammunition in the basement. They slept in another part of the

6 building.

7 We managed to put the fire out. It didn't spread to other

8 surrounding buildings. That was a fairly difficult fire to deal with, but

9 I think that in the course of that day we had between seven or eight

10 interventions. We had seven or eight fires to put out, and as far as that

11 specific fire is concerned, we put it out without suffering any

12 consequences, and neither the men nor the equipment were damaged.

13 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, whether the fire station, the

14 headquarters of the firefighting unit, was struck by artillery fire on at

15 that day, the 9th of May.

16 A. Our facility and the location where it was located was frequently

17 targeted. Let me just tell you this: The top portion of the fire tower

18 was hit twice severely. One of the shells broke through the tower and

19 landed on the facility, and the other shell knocked out the crown of the

20 tower, which was -- which topped the tower.

21 There was also a construction beam which went through the whole

22 building. It was the main beam, and all other beams were touching it or

23 lying across it, so this beam had to be replaced.

24 We watched the consequences of that particular shelling, and we

25 realised that this is what was damaged.

Page 1254

1 Q. You said a moment ago that throughout the day of the 9th of May

2 you and your unit responded to approximately seven to eight separate

3 fires. Apart from the fire station, can you tell the Judges any other

4 locations that you remember that were struck by artillery fire on that

5 day.

6 A. I told you a minute ago that the police station had been set on

7 fire. It was targeted from a hill called Hum hill. This is where they

8 had very good visibility from. Also on that same day there was an

9 institute of hygiene that was targeted. It used to be the institute of

10 hygiene and then became a war hospital, and it was protected by sandbags,

11 and beams, once again, were damaged by missiles.

12 Q. All right. Can you tell us -- Mr. Pejanovic, we're going to come

13 back in a few minutes to some of the specific incidents of shellings and

14 fires that you were involved -- that you were involved in, but before we

15 do that, after -- once the events of the 9th of May had taken place, can

16 you tell the Judges, please, a bit more about what was done to mobilise

17 the firefighting forces in East Mostar once the conflict began in full

18 earnest.

19 A. Earlier in my evidence, I said that on the 9th of May I was

20 supposed to leave my shift, which means that my entire shift was to leave,

21 a new shift was to take up duty. All of our people had their houses in

22 Western Mostar, their family homes, but there were also some of them who

23 had their temporary residence in that part of town, in Western Mostar.

24 After the conflict erupted, it wasn't reasonable to expect that

25 people would arrive that morning to take up the shift, to take up duty.

Page 1255

1 Therefore, I and other colleagues were forced to take in new people who

2 had no experience or little experience. We simply had no choice.

3 Therefore, at that point in time, we took in a lot of new personnel to

4 work as firefighters. We even took in some people who used to be

5 firefighters, were members of the fire brigade, and then left the brigade.

6 For example, Sator Ahmet, Mirzo Bratic, who was later killed by shrapnel.

7 I can give you some other names, but I don't know whether you're

8 interested. These were mostly people who used to work at the fire

9 brigade, worked there before the war and then, due to various

10 circumstances, left the brigade, and then once the conflict erupted, they

11 came back and rejoined brigade.

12 Mirza Bratic, whom I mentioned, his parents used to live in a

13 building called Beirut, which is near the bus and train station. As soon

14 as conflict erupted, since he couldn't go to the other side, just like our

15 people couldn't go to the other side, he came and reported to us, and I

16 immediately accepted him into the unit.

17 I have to mention that on that same day a fire broke out near the

18 demarcation line, near Santica Street and the cinema building. Since the

19 order had been issued excluding us from the staff and this area belonged

20 to sector 1, we called up our colleagues and told them that several

21 apartments were on fire. They went to the location, and I don't know what

22 happened, but they were caught in the crossfire between the HVO and the BH

23 army. And then there were also members of the BH MUP there.

24 They left the engine out in the street, and then they fled and

25 took shelter. They didn't know what was happening, and we didn't know

Page 1256

1 what was happening. Nobody told us anything, and their radio equipment

2 remained in the engine. And then two or three days later, they called us

3 up and accused us. They said we were to blame for the disappearance of

4 two or three men who were there in that fire engine.

5 So a colleague of mine and I took a car, we crossed the bridge,

6 went to a location near Santica Street, and we went from one apartment to

7 the next, calling out the names. And a woman came out of one of the

8 apartments and she said, "They are here." So we found these men and we

9 told them what happened, that we were being blamed for their

10 disappearance. We told them that they need to call their families and

11 tell them that they were fine.

12 So that's what happened. And naturally everybody was pleased that

13 they were found. We offered them to come and join us. They said that

14 they would think about that.

15 Since there was no food, no cigarettes, they were basically cut

16 off from everything, on the following day they came to us, and they stayed

17 for some 15 to 20 days, I'm not sure exactly of the time period. And they

18 were wonderful young men. They helped a lot in various repairs, because,

19 you know, daily we had to repair our engines, our vehicles, because we

20 were using them under abnormal circumstances.

21 And then in the meantime, Pompiers sans Frontieres came and joined

22 us, our colleagues from France. They brought in some humanitarian aid,

23 they brought a small water tank truck, and then an ambulance vehicle and

24 some other items. They also brought IV fluids, about 1.000 litres of it.

25 The ambulance vehicle, which was fully equipped, and the IV fluids

Page 1257

1 were immediately turned over to the war hospital. We did it because they

2 needed it.

3 And they were getting ready to cross over into Western Mostar. It

4 was organised by UNPROFOR. So we managed to include these four men into

5 that convoy, and we sent them to the other side. Unfortunately - and I

6 mean this sincerely - unfortunately, one of these colleagues, a fireman,

7 after I started inquiring about them, and I started doing that early,

8 inquiring and crossing over to the other side, so after I started doing

9 that, I learned that one of them was killed by a sniper somewhere near the

10 Bulevar. They went out on an intervention, and he was killed by a sniper.


12 Q. This time when some assistance arrived from the French

13 organisation, the ambulance and some other assistance, can you give the

14 Judges, please, an approximate date when this occurred; at least the month

15 and the year?

16 A. I can tell you that it was sometime in late May when we sent them

17 back. The event itself, when they came to put out fire, that was on the

18 9th of May in the afternoon, after 2.00 p.m. And I told you that they

19 stayed with us for a while, and then in the meantime Pompiers sans

20 Frontieres arrived, and somewhere in late May the convoy went to cross

21 into the other part of the town and we had to negotiate with civilian

22 authorities because everybody needed permits to cross over into the other

23 part. So we somehow managed to do it with the military authorities and to

24 ensure that they could go back.

25 Q. From what -- from what authority did you need a permit to enter

Page 1258

1 into West Mostar?

2 A. There was no chance for us to cross over into the other part of

3 town. No. It was the convoy that went there, and it was arranged between

4 two authorities. The convoy was led by UNPROFOR. And we tried to include

5 our colleagues, firemen, in that convoy so they could leave Mostar, and

6 together with them we sent our four colleagues, firemen, from the fire

7 unit from the other bank. We included them in the convoy. We needed

8 authorisation, both from civilian and military authorities from that part

9 of the town in order to do that, because they checked the identity of

10 persons in the convoy.

11 Q. Around this time, sir, after May of 1993, did you once again

12 become the commander of the firefighting unit in East Mostar?

13 A. Yes. It so happened that the colleague who was appointed in July

14 of 1993 when I was removed from my position started creating trouble,

15 first minor trouble and then more significant trouble for the civilian

16 authorities. Almost daily there would be at least one complaint about his

17 work, especially when it came to the distribution of water throughout

18 town. Then civilian authorities got fed up with the complaints against

19 him, and at one point in time they started wondering, is he the only one

20 who can do this job, or are there any other people who can do that as

21 well? And then some people who knew me from before the war, they said

22 that, yes, that I was there, that my name was Ratko Pejanovic, but that I

23 was a Serb. Literally, that's what they said. And then the president of

24 the War Presidency, Mr. Smajo Kljajic, said, Well, what can I do? It's

25 not my fault that he's a Serb. If he knows how to do this job, then let's

Page 1259

1 appoint him to that position. And this is how on the 15th of July I was

2 reappointed commander of the fire station. This is when the civilian

3 authorities were in the process of being established on the left bank.

4 Q. All right.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

6 slow down.


8 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, I've been asked again to remind you if you could

9 please speak a bit slower. The interpreters are trying to keep up with

10 you.

11 A. I truly apologise. Please don't take it against me. Even now as

12 I speak about these events, I am re-experiencing them. I will do my best

13 to try and control the speed.

14 Q. Before we continue on, sir, you made a reference a moment ago, on

15 page 46, line - we're about to lose it, in fact - line 8, the person, the

16 colleague who was appointed, you said July of 1993. Were you referring,

17 sir, to when you were replaced in 1992?

18 A. It's possible that it was a slip of tongue. I apologise. My

19 colleague, Meho Kekic, was appointed on -- in July of 1992, and I was

20 removed. And then a year later, again in July, he was removed and I was

21 re-appointed.

22 Q. And as of this time, or as of May, 1993, sir, is it correct that

23 with the exception of you, a Serb, that all the other members of the fire

24 brigade in East Mostar were Muslim or Bosniak?

25 A. Yes, that's correct. It couldn't have been any other way, because

Page 1260

1 there were no young personnel of Serb ethnicity, and none of them were

2 really interested in that job. There were about 600 Serbs on the left

3 bank, and those were mostly the elderly, and those who were younger joined

4 either the BH MUP or the BH army, so they already belonged to a formation

5 and couldn't join the fire brigade.

6 As for the Croat residents, they were mostly the elderly. I think

7 that there were 246 of them. I just happen to have these figures because

8 sometime in June, May or June of 1994, we distributed some food that was

9 given to the Serbian civic council, whose president I was. So this food

10 was given to us and then we distributed it, and I knew, because of that,

11 how many residents there were.

12 Q. All right. Let me next turn your attention, please, to -- for a

13 few minutes to the equipment, to the larger pieces of equipment that your

14 firefighting unit had during the summer and second half of 1993. Can you

15 briefly tell the Judges, please, what fire trucks or tanks or equipment,

16 large equipment, you had available to you.

17 A. Earlier on, I mentioned that we had a command vehicle, Lada Niva.

18 Up until June of 1992, we also had a vehicle for transporting people and

19 equipment that was damaged through neglect of our men, and it was in this

20 damaged state that it was brought over to our facilities.

21 Then we had two water tanks. Their capacity was five tonnes or

22 5.000 litres. And then we also had Zastava 650 AM [phoen] that was a

23 special vehicle for decontamination of tall trees and plants. It was

24 purchased sometime in 1985.

25 This is what we had and what was operational. However, sometime

Page 1261

1 in January or in mid-February, 1993, it so happened that one of our

2 vehicles was stolen, one of the water tanks, and we never managed to find

3 it or to trace it. That means that we had two TAM water tank trucks and a

4 Zastava 650. Their capacity was 4.500 litres. And we also had the

5 command vehicle. Now, this command vehicle wasn't of much use to us unless

6 we had to occasionally transport equipment somewhere, but other than that,

7 we didn't use it much.

8 As for the water tank trucks, they were owned by the firefighting

9 association of Mostar. One of them, one of the water tank trucks of 7.000

10 litres, the one that we received from civilian defence staff in order to

11 use it, it seems that when the reserve forces and members of Serb

12 formations were there, they got it out of aluminum. And then after a

13 while, the civilian defence staff gave it to us to use it. It was produced

14 by factory called FAP. Its capacity was 7.000 litres. It was yellowish

15 in colour. The colour used to be yellow, that's what I'm trying to say.

16 So this is what we had in terms of fire trucks.

17 Initially, our hoses were quite long. Later on, as we went out to

18 put out fires, the hose -- hoses were damaged and were basically barely

19 usable.

20 Q. Let me just see if I understand, sir, and correct me if I'm

21 wrong. Based on what you've said, do I understand that there were

22 essentially three functioning fire trucks, if we can use that terminology,

23 that could actually be used to fight fires during this time?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 MR. SCOTT: Could I ask for the Registry's assistance that Exhibit

Page 1262

1 P09220 be displayed. 9220. You will have to move down, I believe, to

2 page 6233. Using the second -- page 14 if that assists. All right.

3 Q. Sir, can you tell us what is depicted or shown on Exhibit P09220.

4 A. We can see one of the vehicles that I described produced by FAP,

5 capacity of 7.000 litres. You can see it now in a prettier colour, and

6 the licence plate is clear enough. At the time when we received this

7 truck, it was anything but a firefighting truck. I think that 4 to 5.000

8 German marks had to be invested in order to bring it up to this condition.

9 A lot of parts were changed on it; glass, windshield wipers, the pump,

10 rotation lights, and so on.

11 Q. Is this the vehicle, sir, that you said had previously been

12 yellow?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us, please -- and perhaps you can use this photograph

15 just to illustrate these points if it will assist you. Can you tell us

16 how these vehicles, the trucks, were equipped in terms of lights, sirens,

17 any signalling devices, and can you also tell the Judges, please, if they

18 were marked in any way that would distinguish them from what might be

19 considered a combat vehicle.

20 A. First of all, I have to tell you that everywhere in the world,

21 including our country, fire engines are bright red. They have the colour

22 of fire. This is sort of an unwritten rule that applies everywhere in the

23 world, including our country. The mere fact that these vehicles are of

24 this colour, naturally that doesn't mean that they can't be used for

25 anything else, but I am assuring you that they were not used for anything

Page 1263

1 else except for their basic purpose, to carry water to put out fire.

2 We also had rotation lights, but there was no point in using them

3 at the time. We had a siren that was also pointless to use at the time.

4 And if anybody else could see some other purpose in this vehicle, then

5 that's their opinion.

6 I can tell you about something funny that happened with one of our

7 water tank trucks, Zastava, which was -- its capacity was 4.500 litres.

8 So this vehicle went, full of water, to a part of the town called Gornji

9 Zanik. As soon as it arrived on site and starting -- and started

10 distributing water to the population near Rudnik, a gun started firing and

11 it pierced the water tank completely, made it look like a piece of Swiss

12 cheese. And then the driver stood there and managed to flee to a house

13 nearby. On the following day, we had to tow the truck back because its

14 tyres were flat. So we had to tow it back to our premises.

15 Then on the following day, on the radio, Postojna, we heard this

16 piece of news announced: "Yesterday the HVO soldiers were extremely

17 efficient. Among other things, they -- they hit a truck which had

18 delivered fuel to the army of BH." I'm now assuring that it was our

19 truck, that it carried water. It carried water to the civilian

20 population. There was no way it could have carried fuel. We had an

21 enormous shortage of fuel. We had to use fuel from a substation in order

22 to have fuel for our vehicles.

23 Q. Let me ask you a question about the firefighters in your -- in

24 your organisation. How -- how were they dressed when they were on duty?

25 Was there a uniform; and, if so, what did it look like?

Page 1264

1 A. Yes, certainly. I have to tell you this: While we still had our

2 old uniforms, which were typical ones, were identical in the entire former

3 Yugoslavia, those were trousers with deep pockets and then shirts, and

4 then a shirt that came over it, and then a jacket with a somewhat thicker

5 lining. All of these pieces of uniform were dark blue. Later on, as the

6 uniforms got damaged - we went inside the buildings which were on fire, so

7 naturally they got damaged - and then frequently when our colleagues from

8 abroad would come, such as Pompiers sans Frontieres, and then also

9 firefighters from other cities abroad, they would bring us their old

10 uniforms, but they would be of the same colour, dark blue, without any

11 insignia. And those were the uniforms that we used. Sometimes we would

12 also have helmets on our heads.

13 Q. Sir, can you tell the Judges, was there any resemblance between

14 the uniforms worn by firefighters and those used by the army of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. No, not at all. Not even resembling it. The uniform of the BH

17 army members and BH MUP members as well as the HVO were camouflage

18 uniforms. The BH army and the BH MUP uniforms were mostly older, and that

19 was the only difference between them and the HVO. But at any rate, those

20 were camouflage uniforms, and sometimes people had their own pieces of

21 clothing that they would put on. But there was absolutely no resemblance

22 between their uniforms and ours.

23 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, very briefly before we move on to another topic,

24 you've made references to this, apart from these large pieces of

25 equipment, the three fire trucks that you had, can you just briefly

Page 1265

1 explain to the Judges, what did you do from May of 1993 through the

2 remainder of that year to keep all this equipment running and operable?

3 What did you have to do to accomplish that?

4 A. It's very difficult to explain this. On the whole, we tried to

5 patch up the equipment that we had. I'll give you an example. A 15-metre

6 firefighting pipe that is penetrated by a piece of shrapnel or a sniper

7 shot would be patched up. We then have an eight metre pipe, for example.

8 We'd join two such pipes together and we'd have a normal pipe, a normal

9 hose. The greatest difficulty was when we had flat tyres. You don't have

10 any new tyres, and you always drive around areas where there's shrapnel

11 and where there are pieces of metal. So we -- we just had to make do and

12 ask for individuals to lend us some glue so that we could patch up the

13 tyres. It was very difficult to maintain the vehicles so that they could

14 be of service.

15 Q. All right.

16 MR. SCOTT: Now, in moving forward, I think it would be helpful at

17 this time, Mr. President, if indeed the -- a map of the city of Mostar, at

18 least a large part of the city, was available. I suggest that because of

19 the number of markings that I would expect the witness to make in the next

20 hour or two of his testimony, it will be easier to actually do that on a

21 hard copy rather than trying to mark it on the screen, if that's

22 agreeable.

23 And for everyone, the map is Exhibit P09517.

24 Q. I'm not going to ask you -- well, I will, sir. Just to way --

25 just to orient everyone in the courtroom in light of some of the testimony

Page 1266

1 you've given so far, can you please on that map now mark or show us where

2 the -- your fire station, your fire headquarters, was located during this

3 period of approximately May until the end of 1993.

4 A. Your Honours, I'd just like to point out that this map is a very

5 small one. It's difficult to point out everything of interest here, but

6 I'll try to use it to give you an idea, at least a partial idea of the

7 locations of the events.

8 If you can follow me, this is Marsala Tita Street in the immediate

9 vicinity of Mazoljice. And then below you have the street of Mladen

10 Balorda. Near the Marsala Tita Street there was Coko Rila's [phoen] house

11 at this corner. We were below this house. Opposite there was the

12 Razvitak department store.

13 Q. I would like you to mark where the firefighting headquarters was

14 located, and if you would put a number 1 at that location, please.

15 A. I've marked the spot.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Since you just mentioned it and it will be

17 coming up, I believe, shortly, can you just mark also, perhaps with a

18 number -- with a number 2, the Razvitak building.

19 A. It was right opposite our building. I'll mark this with number 2.

20 I've done it now. Thank you very much.

21 Q. All right. And if I could ask you to mark one additional location

22 for now and then we'll come back to this map in a few minutes -- well,

23 shortly. Can you also mark where what you referred to as the war

24 hospital, where the war hospital was located. And if you see that, would

25 you mark that with a number 3.

Page 1267

1 A. Yes, I can see it quite clearly. It's right here, between number

2 1 and the words Marsala Tita. It's in this area between the letters M and

3 T. I'll mark the site with number 3. And roughly speaking, this was

4 the location of the war military hospital.

5 Q. All right. And so just by way of clarity in purposes -- before we

6 go forward - excuse me - location number 1 is the firefighting

7 headquarters, location number 2 is the Razvitak building, and location

8 number 3 is the war hospital; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Now, we'll keep that map handy, but I have some other

11 questions for you. During the year 1993, starting from approximately the

12 9th of May, can you tell the Judges, based on any records or information

13 you kept, approximately how many fires you responded to in East Mostar

14 during that time?

15 A. If you're talking about the period that started in January, before

16 the conflict broke out on the 9th of May, well, I think that up until the

17 9th of May, but I'm not quite sure of the figure, but I think we dealt

18 with between 86 and 87 fires. From May onwards -- or, from January to

19 December, we dealt with 386 fires. About 280 from May to the end of

20 December. But don't take this as a precise figure since a lot of time has

21 passed since then and I don't have any precise figures, but I think that

22 that would be the approximate number.

23 Q. Based on your experience at the time, sir, what caused these fires

24 or the majority of them?

25 A. I have to speak frankly: Most of the fires, a large number of the

Page 1268

1 fires, or almost 99 per cent of them were the result of military action.

2 Incendiary ammunition was used or shells were fired, and this resulted in

3 fires. There were some accidental fires for sure.

4 Q. Can you tell us, sir, or tell the Judges based on your experience,

5 observation at the time, what you saw in terms of the locations that were

6 shelled or fired on during this time, whether they -- whether you saw

7 anything about the targeting that was consistent or patterned, or what can

8 you tell the Judges about that?

9 A. Well, I don't know whether there was a pattern of any kind or not,

10 but what all these fires had in common was that 99 per cent of them had

11 been caused by military action. So 99 per cent of these fires were

12 deliberately provoked, since incendiary ammunition was used. If you shell

13 the town, then it's quite obvious that this will result in fires around

14 the town. That's quite normal.

15 Since this is the subject that we're now discussing, I have to

16 point out that in a large number of cases we were at risk when putting

17 fires out, because while we gradually managed to put a fire out, we were

18 at risk of being hit by fire. So we could have had 14 wounded, perhaps 15

19 killed.

20 Q. I am going to come to that specifically, Mr. Pejanovic, in a bit.

21 In terms of the shelling, can you tell the Judges were there any

22 particular locations in East Mostar, based on your experience, that were

23 targeted or shelled more than others?

24 A. Well, yes. The fire station and the surrounding area, the area

25 surrounding the Razvitak department store, as well as the military

Page 1269

1 [Realtime transcript read in error "military police"] hospital.

2 Similarly, a building where the command was located for a while. And

3 there was a prison there for a while too. This was the public auditing

4 building, the former public auditing building. It is now a bank. And

5 these were the buildings that were more frequently targeted.

6 Q. Sir, in the transcript it says at one point, it's written as "the

7 military police hospital." Were you referring, sir, to what you described

8 earlier as the war hospital?

9 A. I'm not aware of a military police hospital. I'm aware of a war

10 hospital where all those wounded were treated. All the wounded had the

11 same rights there.

12 Q. Can you tell us, based on your experience, what you observed in

13 terms of the positions around Mostar from which the shelling was taking

14 place, the firing positions, to the extent that you saw them or come to

15 understand where they were located?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, if I may.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Just one technical objection to the question. It's

19 rather compound. I would rather have it broken down, because it --

20 there's a difference between observing something and coming to learn about

21 it. So if we can have a clear record. I didn't object earlier when --

22 when something, whether it was targeted or whether it was hit, but I do

23 object to this one.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation].

25 MR. SCOTT: Sorry. We're not getting interpretation.

Page 1270

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was telling Mr. Scott to try

2 and put neutral questions, although I believe that this debate is a futile

3 one.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology. The microphone wasn't

5 working and is still not working.

6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. I agree with that comment.

7 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... tell about what you know about

8 firing locations; that is, positions from where the firing was taking

9 place that you've told us about in the last few minutes.

10 A. I try to answer the questions put to me, but if you asked anyone,

11 any citizen of Mostar, anyone out of the 55.000 citizens on the left bank,

12 they would have been able to provide you with a very clear answer. This

13 could be seen with the naked eye. There were positions on the Hum hill to

14 the south of the town. There were positions to the west.

15 Q. Let me stop you. If you allow me, sir, let's take it in pieces,

16 if you will. You've just mentioned --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] ...

18 no longer hear the interpreters.

19 MR. SCOTT: Testing. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now,

20 Mr. President?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I heard an interpreter say that

22 there was a bug.

23 MR. SCOTT: Are we back on, please?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation].


Page 1271

1 Q. Sir, if you would look at the map again, the one you've already

2 made the three marks on, can you indicate on the map - and I realise it

3 may be off the map - but just indicate the general area. If it's off the

4 map, point an arrow pointing to the general direction of the location that

5 you just indicated, you said the firing position on Hum.

6 MR. SCOTT: If we could have the ELMO back on, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll repeat this. If any citizen at

8 the time, or even today, was asked where the positions were, it would be

9 easy to reply. One of the positions was to the south of the centre of the

10 town on the Hum hill. There was another position west of the centre of

11 the town, and the third position was to the north of the centre.

12 There were a number of positions on Hum hill, on Brkanovo hill.

13 Q. I'm sorry, sir, let's work with the map a bit. Can we draw back

14 from the map so we can see larger picture? Is it possible? Zoom out, so

15 to speak, please. Well, let's start with that.

16 Perhaps that's -- if you can, sir, let's start with the position

17 you indicated. You said there was a position on the west -- on a hill to

18 the west or a location to the west. Could you identify that by whatever

19 name or terminology you want to use, and also mark that on the map with

20 the letter A, please.

21 MR. SCOTT: Can we please have the assistance of the video booth

22 to show -- if the picture can be scrolled down so we can see the part of

23 the map that the witness is referring to.

24 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, can you do the best you can, please, to mark that

25 location, the location -- the firing location you described as being to

Page 1272

1 the west, and put a letter A on that location or an arrow toward that

2 location.

3 A. I said that the map was a small one, but I will try to use it.

4 Brkanovo hill is about here, above the words "Siroki Brijeg." I'll mark

5 it with the letter A.

6 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I think we could show a proper picture.

7 We have dozens of map and either another map should be put here, because

8 this is a schematic map, and we are here now entering the area of a

9 military -- discussing military positions. We should have adequate map.

10 This one could be useful for what the witness did so far, like some

11 locations in the city will do, but now we are -- we are going into

12 entirely another area of -- of issues. That is at least my suggestion.

13 We will not get the picture.

14 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I believe that --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 MR. SCOTT: -- the witness can give us a general idea of the

17 locations by using this map, which this same map can then be used for the

18 particular locations in the town of Mostar. I'm not asking him to mark

19 with great precision at this point. I'm asking him to give -- advise the

20 Chamber of the approximate locations or directions from the firing

21 positions that he was aware of.

22 MR. KOVACIC: If I may, Your Honour. But that is exactly what my

23 dear colleague said: Approximate. Approximate this and approximate that,

24 and then later somebody will say, well, the HVO had a position over just

25 here, and it is approximate. And --

Page 1273

1 MR. SCOTT: It is approximate.

2 MR. KOVACIC: -- it is approximate. With a military map, it would

3 be precise, or it wouldn't be shown at all.

4 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'll be happy if Mr. Kovacic wants to ask

5 cross-examination questions on this. I --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Let the witness tell us

7 in which direction this hill is to be found, the hill to the west.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already said, it's about

9 here, above the words "Siroki Brijeg." This is how I have to explain it.

10 I can't explain it in any other way.

11 A little further away there's the second position, where you have

12 TV transmitters now. It's part of the Mikuljaca hill.


14 Q. Well, would you please mark -- would you put a marking on that and

15 would you make that B.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Now, a moment ago, sir, you made reference to a location that was

18 north of the town of Mostar. Can you please scan the map and again give

19 us an indication of that location.

20 A. It's to the north of the centre, in this area between Rudnik and

21 Rastani. It's in the Raska Gora area. It's difficult to point out the

22 location precisely but I'm trying to give you an approximate idea of where

23 the positions were located.

24 Q. Would you please mark that with a C or, again, an arrow,

25 indicating the approximate location of that place with a letter C.

Page 1274

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And, sir, you've indicated several times a position on Mount Hum.

3 Can you show the Judges, please, the reference -- the location in

4 reference to Mount Hum, and could you mark that with the letter D.

5 A. This is the position to the south of the centre. It's a dominant

6 position in the town itself, so it's visible regardless of where you're

7 standing, regardless of your position, viewpoint.

8 Q. All right, sir. Moving away from the map for a moment, I would

9 like to ask you questions in terms of the shelling and damage that was

10 done to locations in Mostar during 1992, 1993, can you tell us first of

11 all, was there any damage or destruction of Serb Orthodox churches in

12 1992?

13 A. Yes. There's no doubt that there was a church that was hit in

14 July. There was the cathedral church. It was set on fire in mid-July,

15 and then it was blown up. It was -- it was a church, and the old church

16 was subsequently set on fire. Fortunately, it wasn't blown up. It was

17 only set on fire. It was recently renovated, and I think it's now

18 functioning normally.

19 Q. When you said, sir, mid-July, what year were you referring to in

20 reference to the destruction of the church?

21 A. In 1992. I apologise. In 1992.

22 Q. Tell us, sir, if you know, who or what organisation blew up this

23 church that was, as you said, blown up?

24 A. Well, this is what I learnt from others. I really don't know who

25 was responsible for the act. If I knew, I'd provide you with the names.

Page 1275

1 I wouldn't hesitate. But at the time, they said that the HOS forces had

2 set the church on fire, the Croatian armed forces. And a while ago, a

3 citizen told me that he had footage of the mining of the church. He said

4 he would provide me with them. But we met at a meeting, and he mentioned

5 the fact that I'd be provided with footage or photographs showing who had

6 actually blown the church up.

7 It was suggested in the conversation that we had that perhaps HVO

8 soldiers did that, who had been aided by elements from the Croatian army.

9 I can't say that this is certain, though.

10 Q. Let me ask you about mosques, and I'm -- again I'm talking about

11 1992, we're going to come to 1993 in just one minute. Can you tell us,

12 please, of any information you have about any mosque being destroyed in

13 Mostar in 1992? Destroyed or damaged, substantially damaged.

14 A. As far as I know, because, as I said, on the 11th of May I went

15 home, that means I had to pass by Karajzibegova mosque, I saw that the

16 minaret of the -- the tower of the mosque had been affected. I saw that

17 that mosque had been destroyed. Part of the tower, part of the minaret

18 had been destroyed and half of the mosque had been destroyed. I don't

19 know about the other mosques, I'm not aware of them having been destroyed.


21 Q. All right. Now I'm going to direct your attention specifically to

22 1993. Can you tell the Judges, please, to your knowledge how many mosques

23 in East Mostar -- I'll come to West Mostar in a moment. Can you tell the

24 Judges how many mosques in East Mostar were destroyed or seriously damaged

25 in 1993?

Page 1276

1 A. In East Mostar, if we say -- if we say that Karajzibegova mosque

2 had serious damage inflicted to it and then Lipova mosque and then Nemed

3 Pasina Dzamija [phoen] was partially damaged, and then the mosque in

4 Mahala, and finally Sarica mosque; all of them had partial damage. I say

5 "partial" because in some cases it was the minaret was destroyed and some

6 of them, in addition to that, had also holes through the dome.

7 Q. All right. Now, you've said -- or we've said so far and the

8 question that's put to you was destroyed or damaged. Based on your

9 knowledge and observation, how was -- what was the -- what was the way or

10 the manner in which these mosques were destroyed or damaged? By what

11 activity or conduct?

12 A. I think I can say, based on personal observation, that the damage

13 was caused by shelling, and these had to be shells of higher calibre

14 because an ordinary gun would not have been able to produce such damage.

15 So -- so it had to be artillery pieces that inflicted this damage. And

16 sometimes the shells would pierce the dome and exit through the other end,

17 sometimes they would destroy the dome, and many minarets were damaged.

18 Q. All right. Sir, going back to the map that you were working with

19 previously, could you please take the marker and mark the locations of the

20 mosques in East Mostar that you understand were destroyed or damaged in

21 1993. I'm not going to ask you to name -- to write on the map the name of

22 each one for now, but if you could just mark the locations of the mosques

23 that you've told us about in the last few minutes in East Mostar.

24 A. We have Karajzibegova mosque, here at the crossing of two streets.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the names of the

Page 1277

1 streets.


3 Q. Sir, I'm sorry. For the interpretation, could you please state

4 again the name of the streets, the street references that you gave? Just

5 now for the location.

6 A. So at the corner of Brace Fejzica Street and Karajzibegova Street.

7 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to mark mosque -- I'm going to ask you

8 to mark those just for now with an X just so we can distinguish those from

9 other markings that you've made and will make on the map. If you can just

10 mark anything that's a mosque with an X, please. Can you go on to the

11 next one, please.

12 A. Yes. This has been done already. The next mosque is not far

13 from, as one goes through Marsala Tita Street and descends down to the

14 market, it is somewhere here, where the letter B is. You see this word

15 "Brankovac" written, and this mosque is called Under Linden Tree, or

16 Podlipa, mosque.

17 Q. Again would you mark that with an X, please.

18 A. The next mosque is lower down, below the letter X, not far from

19 the 1st of May Square, Koski Mehmed-pasa mosque. And it's located between

20 the Neretva River and the road leading to the old bridge. Here. I marked

21 it here.

22 Q. All right. It may assist the Judges, perhaps, in reference to the

23 old bridge, or the Stari Most, as a point of reference, can you just mark

24 on the old bridge -- where on the map is the old bridge or Stari Most?

25 A. Yes. Not far from the letter X. Not far from this letter --

Page 1278

1 Q. Perhaps you can --

2 A. -- further to the front.

3 Q. Perhaps you can give the bridge number 4.

4 A. Right here.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you continue on on the mosque, please, the next

6 mosque.

7 A. Right upon the place where you descend from the old bridge, under

8 this word "Grad," there was the Esnafa [phoen] mosque. Earlier there was

9 a leather manufacturing workshop here, and this is where members of this

10 trade association had their own mosque.

11 Q. Okay. Continue on, please, if there are more. If you've come to

12 the end, say so, but otherwise would you please mark the next mosque.

13 A. No. No. Not far from the steps leading down to the old bridge,

14 there was, and there still is today, the so-called Inat [phoen] mosque.

15 Q. Can you give us an approximate street reference in reference to

16 that mosque just so we have another reference in the record, please, if

17 possible?

18 A. It's in the street called Marsala Tita Street, but it's further in

19 from the street, some 30 metres inside from the street. And it's to the

20 left, to the south, of the old bridge. It is a very visible building.

21 One cannot miss it. If one went down Marsala Tita Street, one had to pass

22 this mosque.

23 Then further on in Mahala, in Gojka Vukovica Street, there is a

24 mosque somewhere halfway between the space in this inscription, Gojka

25 Vukovica Street. It's basically across from this word "Luka." I'm giving

Page 1279

1 you approximate locations, just approximate locations for mosques, where

2 they used to be.

3 Then across from this place we have Sarica mosque, which is right

4 here in this portion of Marsala Tita Street. From the word "Luka" there's

5 a street running called Podharem, and somewhere in that area, in this

6 triangle, this is where Sarica mosque would be.

7 Q. And does that complete all the mosques you would like to mark on

8 -- in East Mostar that were destroyed or damaged in 1993?

9 A. I apologise. I apologise. I still owe you another mosque. This

10 is the mosque at Musala. It was below us, below our premises, our fire

11 brigade premises. It was below Cietiste [phoen], Srejca and Mladen

12 Balorda Street. I marked it with a letter X. So this is the last mosque

13 on the left bank in this group of mosques that used to exist.

14 Q. All right. Can I ask you then, directing your attention to West

15 Mostar, and can you tell the Judges anything you know about the mosques

16 that were destroyed or severely damaged during 1993 in West Mostar. And

17 again, can you give us a marking with an X.

18 A. But prior to that, please allow me to say this: I heard that

19 these mosques were destroyed. Three mosques and a mesjid located in

20 Ilici, as far as I know -- as far as I know, but I'm not sure. I think

21 that mesjid in Ilici has been renovated. I know that the mosque at

22 Banovci was also renovated and also the mosque at Podhum. The third

23 mosque destroyed -- and all three of them were razed to the ground; there

24 was grass growing there. So the third mosque was somewhere near the first

25 elementary school in Podhum. It still stands in ruins nowadays. There is

Page 1280

1 nothing left, basically. I will try to find it on the map.

2 Q. And which one -- can you again give us some street reference or

3 something for the record for that particular mark, the one you've just

4 made, sir.

5 A. Right here, this part where the mosque at Podhum was destroyed. I

6 think it's still called Podhum, unless they changed the name. Then the

7 next mosque was located at the corner of Franjevacka Street [phoen] And

8 Queen Katarina Street. It was on the corner here, and it was not

9 renovated. It was not rebuilt.

10 And then the next mosque was in the area called Balinovac. Right

11 around here, if you can follow where this word "Balinovac" is, it's near

12 letter B. And here, I marked it here. So this mosque in Balinovac and

13 the one in Podhum, these two have been renovated since. And the one at

14 the corner of Franjevacka and Queen Katarina Street has not been

15 renovated. And as for the mesjid in Ilinovici [phoen], it has also been

16 renovated. I can't show you this mesjid on the map, it's further up.

17 Q. Can you explain for the record, sir, when you refer to "mesjid,"

18 what a mesjid?

19 A. It's actually also a mosque but one without a minaret.

20 Q. The mosque that you've just shown us the last few minutes in East

21 Mostar that were damaged or destroyed in 1993, do you know what party or

22 organisation was responsible for destroying or damaging those mosques?

23 A. It's really hard to say right now, because anybody could have

24 manned the artillery pieces. What is certain, though, is that the fire

25 launched from the western side, from western part of the town, is what

Page 1281

1 caused the damage.

2 Q. Now, one last location, sir. Can you tell the Judges about any

3 other Muslim site or religious site that you know about that was targeted

4 in 1993?

5 A. Other than these mosques that I marked on the map, I don't know

6 for any others except the old bridge, unless that's what you mean. And I

7 wouldn't link this with Bosniaks. This is a bridge built in the Turkish

8 times, and this bridge is a symbol of the town, whether people like it or

9 not. It will remain a symbol forever. Perhaps this is precisely why it

10 was destroyed.

11 Q. Let me ask you not on the bridge, the old bridge for a moment, but

12 was there a location near Blagaj that you're aware of that was targeted?

13 A. Blagaj, yes, but that's something different. That's true. In

14 July, I established a forward fire brigade in Blagaj the day I was

15 appointed commander of the fire unit. I learned on the basis of

16 information available to me that it was necessary to establish at least

17 one fire unit in Blagaj, and we did that.

18 Blagaj itself, just like our town, did not have enough resources.

19 So -- so we devised this arrangement.

20 Q. Sir, if you let me --

21 A. That is to say --

22 Q. Just in the interests of time, please. I'm sorry to interrupt

23 you. Could I direct your attention specifically to the targeting of a

24 location in Blagaj that you're aware of, and could you tell the Judges,

25 please, specifically about that.

Page 1282

1 A. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify how that came about, but I

2 will be brief.

3 Twice, on two occasions, Pompiers sans Frontieres came to visit

4 us. They were from France. So they came once, and the other time

5 firefighters from Swansea, in England, came to visit us. We wanted to

6 show them some interesting sites in the area, so we took them to the

7 source of the Buna river, and we showed them the location called Tekija.

8 As we were travelling back, twice the multi-barrelled rocket launchers --

9 this is something that people explained to me later on because I'm not

10 much of an expert when it comes to artillery -- but at any rate, these

11 Chinese-made multi-barrelled rocket launchers launched missiles that

12 literally flew above our heads, and they hit the area to the left of the

13 source of the Buna river and Tekija itself. Tekija is an oriental Islamic

14 religious facility, and for over 25 years the gatherings of various

15 Dervishes is organised there. This is a pilgrimage site for them.

16 Fortunately, the missiles didn't make a direct hit. Rather, they

17 hit a piece of rock above Tekija, and then some of the stones tumbled

18 down, hitting the roof of Tekija.

19 MR. SCOTT: Before Mr. Karnavas intervenes, Your Honour --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Karnavas, be brief

21 please.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. I've looked at the documents that were

23 provided to us by the Prosecution, and I could be in error, but I don't

24 see anything that was provided to us from the Prosecution regarding these

25 events that are being mentioned at the moment. It's not in the proofing

Page 1283

1 notes. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I certainly would like an explanation

2 from the Prosecution.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. What happened in Blagaj,

4 is it mentioned in the indictment or in the pre-trial brief?

5 MR. SCOTT: This particular incident concerning Tekija -- let me

6 just double-check. Not specifically -- not specifically charged in the

7 indictment. The witness told us about this after he came to The Hague as

8 one of the particular items that he was aware of in connection with

9 religious properties, and he talked about the mosque, and in connection

10 were telling us about the mosque, he told us the story about -- the

11 information about this location Tekija.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, yesterday afternoon I was provided

13 with what is titled as "Supplemental Disclosure Statement of Witness Ratko

14 Pejanovic," the gentleman here. Perhaps it's an oversight that this was

15 not mentioned, but it certainly is not on the one page, what we normally

16 call proofing notes, and obviously had we had this, we would have been

17 able to at least be aware of the situation. I would hope that this would

18 not happen again.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This was a matter of

20 context?

21 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. And I have one other question about

22 it and then we're finished on the topic, and I believe it will be time for

23 the break.

24 Q. Sir, when you said you saw the -- or made reference to these

25 Chinese-made multiple rocket launchers that were fired over your head, can

Page 1284

1 you tell the Judges from what warring party, from what organisation these

2 missiles were fired toward the Tekija complex?

3 A. To tell you the truth, as I said to you, I heard from people in

4 Blagaj that these were Chinese-made missiles. I don't know about that for

5 a fact. But definitely the missiles were launched from the HVO positions,

6 which were located somewhere in the area called Hodbine, in that main

7 area.

8 Q. And you witnessed these missiles impacting the area of Tekija

9 yourself; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. Clearly so, because missiles flew above our heads.

11 Literally, they zoomed above our heads, and we got really scared. We

12 started running because we were afraid that new missiles would be launched

13 and that there would be a stray missile or something like that.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pejanovic.

15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I suggest that would be a place to

16 break.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we shall now make a

18 break so that you can have a rest and something to eat. We shall resume

19 around 1.00.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.18 p.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you may proceed.

23 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, several times in your testimony today so far you've

25 also referred to the delivery of water in East Mostar, and I'd like for

Page 1285

1 the next few minutes to ask you some questions about that, and I'd like to

2 divide up my questions to you, please, in two parts. First, can you tell

3 us what the delivery -- or the water system was in connection with East

4 Mostar during the period roughly 1992 up until but not continuing after

5 May 1993. Can you just describe that time for us, please.

6 A. Let me give you a brief sentence as an introduction. The

7 situation was very bad with water supply. While the conflicts were raging

8 between the Serbs on one side and Bosniaks and Croats on the other, all

9 bridges in town were destroyed. Why am I saying this, that the bridges

10 were destroyed? Not because the bridges were destroyed, but because main

11 roads, main channels of the water supply system went through the bridges,

12 which meant that, once the bridges were destroyed, the left bank was cut

13 off from that system. There were no roads and no water supply. The only

14 thing remaining -- or, rather, the only bridge remaining was the old

15 bridge, which had one piece damaged during the conflict with the Serbs.

16 Then the Serbs withdrew from the city and bypasses were

17 constructed. So on the opposite bank, on the right bank, these bypasses

18 linked up the water system to main water pipes. Three bridges, Sarinski

19 bridge, Lucki bridge, and Tito's bridge had these bypasses whereby the

20 citizens were able to get water and where we were also able to tank water

21 and then transport it and distribute it to other residents. This is how

22 it was until the 9th of May, 1993, when new conflicts and bypasses were

23 cut off or disrupted and there was no more water supply to the left bank.

24 I don't know who or what we should thank for this, but in two

25 locations -- and I suppose that the reason for this was the fact that the

Page 1286

1 valves, the main capital valves, were not in order and were not able --

2 they could not be shut off completely. So as a result of that, we had

3 constant water supply at two locations. There wasn't a lot of water, the

4 supply was not an immense one, but enough to fill some containers.

5 One of these two locations was in Sevnica [phoen] near the court

6 building. There was a subterranean hydrant there. Then they started

7 targeting us. This was at the intersection of two streets. We then moved

8 to the courtyard of ElectroHerzegovina, the electrical utility company.

9 There was also a subterranean hydrant there, and we were able to use it

10 for a long period of time. When I say "long period of time," I mean about

11 two months. And this lasted all the way up until the metal bridge erected

12 by UNPROFOR forces instead of Tito's bridge. This was the bridge that

13 linked the left and the right bank and enabled us to go to that part of

14 the town to fill our tanks and supply drinking water for residents and

15 also water we needed to put out fires.

16 So after the bridges were destroyed and these supply lines also

17 destroyed, there was still some water supplied to the area -- rather, to

18 the buildings which belonged to the Bulevar. There was a hydrant there,

19 and there was enough water to fill, for example, a cup or a small

20 container or a bucket.

21 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, sorry. Let me stop you there because you've given

22 us a lot of information. Let me go back and address a couple of things.

23 And I think again I think it would be helpful to use the map. So if I can

24 ask you, please, to look at the same map we were looking at before lunch,

25 which, for the record, is Exhibit P09517.

Page 1287

1 And focusing now on the time after May -- after the 9th of May,

2 1993. If I heard you correctly, in the last few minutes you said there

3 were two hydrants that remained at least partly in operation or flowing on

4 the west side of the river. And could you mark -- could you mark those.

5 Could you show us first the first hydrant. I'm going to ask you to mark

6 that W1, for water 1, for no other reason. If you can show us the first

7 location, please.

8 A. Let's take it in order. The first location where we filled

9 containers with water is once you cross the Tito's bridge and then turn

10 left. In the first street there is a street called Adema Ilidza, and then

11 there's a road there leading to the Bulevar, and the court building is

12 right across. So right here, on the corner where the letter A is, this is

13 where that hydrant was, the subterranean hydrant in the street.

14 The second hydrant was somewhat further up. It was in the yard of

15 Electroprivreda, the electric utility company. Right here in this area

16 where it says "Adema," where you see the text "Adema," right there there's

17 a privately owned building. First there's the court building, then a

18 passage and a privately owned building, and right next to it is the

19 electric utility company building, and in their backyard there was a

20 second hydrant that we used until the bridge was destroyed.

21 Q. So mark that with --

22 A. I will mark it with W2.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. All done.

25 Q. All right. Now, if I understood your testimony a moment ago

Page 1288

1 correctly, to access those two locations, W1 and W2, by truck, you

2 obviously had to cross the river via a bridge; correct?

3 A. Yes, certainly. We had to go over the bridge on the Neretva,

4 which was erected between the two conflicts. It was a metal bridge

5 erected by UNPROFOR.

6 Q. Could you circle that bridge as it then existed and let's just

7 call that B1 for bridge 1.

8 A. It was here, where it says Titov Most, or Tito's Bridge. I will

9 put a rectangle around it, and I will put an arrow. And what letter do

10 you want me to use?

11 Q. B1, please.

12 A. B1.

13 Q. Please.

14 A. Can you please repeat? Do you want me to put B1?

15 Q. Yes, please, B1.

16 A. Thank you very much.

17 Q. Now, how long after the 9th of May, 1993, was that bridge

18 available to you, or when did that bridge -- when was that bridge

19 destroyed?

20 A. I have to say, frankly, that I don't know the exact date, but I

21 think that it was after the second part of July. And thereafter, one

22 couldn't cross that bridge any longer. It was still possible for

23 pedestrians to cross, because some planks had been placed, and they were

24 able to cross to the street Adema Buca, where the forces of BH army were.

25 Q. Tell us, please, after the bridge was destroyed, what were the

Page 1289

1 sources of water to the people in East Mostar?

2 A. These two hydrants that I mentioned, for us on the left bank, were

3 no longer acceptable. The one that was in Adema Buca Street was only

4 available to the local residents.

5 In parallel, as I told you, civilian authorities were being

6 established, and they were among the first one to establish a professional

7 fire brigade, which was the one that we belonged to. And they also

8 established a water utility company. Later that became a publicly owned

9 company. So they took over the water supply from that moment on, and it

10 was only up to us to distribute that water.

11 In addition to that, there was another supply of water. It is

12 somewhat unexplainable, but once again I think that due to a bad valve,

13 from this part of town where the old bridge was, there in the vicinity of

14 the old bridge, there was a hydrant. As soon as you crossed under --

15 crossed the bridge under the Cardak building, there was a hydrant. It had

16 even been shelled. It was hit by a shell. Then once at night I went to

17 replace that hydrant, to repair it, after it was shelled.

18 So we constructed a bypass with plastic pipes, and then we went to

19 the left bank immediately there. As soon as you cross the bridge, to the

20 part called Bijuka [phoen]. So it was some 30 to 40 metres from the

21 bridge, not more than that. We created a pedestal there with five or six

22 faucets. We provided water pressure through our fire hose.

23 Q. Sorry. Mr. Pejanovic, this is on the east side of the bridge, on

24 the east side of the river, this pedestal?

25 A. Yes, yes, yes. On the east side, yes.

Page 1290

1 Q. Okay. Continue.

2 A. So we had these six faucets that residents could go to for 24

3 hours, although it was a bit more risky to go there during daytime. And

4 people would come with various containers, whatever they had. I was among

5 them. And sometimes during night-time I would transport 300 to 400 litres

6 of water when my wife wanted to do the laundry. And we also used that

7 water for drinking, cooking, and everything else. And the water available

8 to the firemen was solely the water coming from the Neretva River. There

9 was a fire hydrant pumping water from the Neretva River through the pipes

10 to Naca Street [phoen], where water was then poured into other containers.

11 This site was targeted and fired upon several times. From the

12 northern part of the city, they shelled the city of Mostar.

13 Q. All right. Once again, you've given us quite a bit of

14 information. You've said -- let me go back with a couple of questions.

15 You've said that going to this -- what I think you referred to as a

16 pedestal, this water outlet with about six faucets, you said going to that

17 site to collect water was risky. Could you please explain to the Judges

18 why it was risky to go to that location.

19 A. Well, yes. This area was shelled by mortars several times, and in

20 several instances people were wounded. Fortunately, nobody was killed,

21 but, yes, people were injured there.

22 In Mostar at that point in time, there was a prohibition on

23 movement -- rather, there was a curfew, and the time for curfew was

24 changed in the period of 24 hours. I'm sorry that I didn't bring any

25 documents with me - because I have them - documents showing that we

Page 1291

1 firemen had permits to move throughout the town throughout 24 hours,

2 whether we were working or were on leave or anything else.

3 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, before I forget, can I ask you to please put a W3

4 -- excuse me, a W3 by that third water location near the old bridge.

5 A. As I said, it was right by the old bridge. I know that part of

6 the city very well. There's a flat area and then there is a cascade of

7 five or six steps leading towards that pedestal, and I will put W3 there.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. All done.

10 Q. Now -- thank you. Right before I interrupted you, for which I

11 apologise, you were making reference to filling your trucks with water for

12 firefighting purposes. But before we come to that, let's just make sure

13 in terms of drinking water supply, in the second half of 1993, apart from

14 the three locations you've indicated, were there any other drinking water

15 sources for the people in East Mostar other than the ones you've marked so

16 far?

17 A. No. No. As I said to you, all we had is the water that came, I

18 suppose due to a bad valve. And then there was water from the Neretva

19 River. The water that was poured into water trucks was chlorified.

20 Depending on the amount of water in the system, a certain amount of

21 chlorine was added, and this water had the colour of blood. It was red.

22 Forty-five to 50 minutes were needed for the chlorine to evaporate so that

23 the water would only after that be available for drinking.

24 Q. Sorry. Was there particular location -- that was my next

25 question: Was there a particular location along the river where the water

Page 1292

1 was removed from the Neretva for the purpose of putting in the tanks and

2 treating the water with chlorine as drinking water? Was there a

3 particular location on this map where the water was collected?

4 A. Yes. Yes. Well, I can give you an approximate location. It's a

5 bit hard, but it was here. There is the Tito's bridge and then there's

6 another bridge. Not a proper bridge, rather a makeshift bridge for

7 logistics support. And to the south of that makeshift bridge, on the bank

8 of the Neretva, there was a pump, pumping water from the river and pumping

9 it up to Fejzica Street.

10 Q. Could you show us where the pump was located, approximately, and

11 mark it W4.

12 A. All right. Let me just orient myself. So here, where you have

13 near the Tito's bridge, this makeshift bridge, this passage. Close to

14 that makeshift bridge there's one passage, and then the red area, and then

15 -- rather, in this narrow red or pink area, which denotes probably a

16 facility of some kind, so approximately there, there was a pump pumping

17 water from the river, and pumping it up to Fejica Street. This is where

18 we tanked water.

19 I have to say that this system functioned only at certain

20 intervals, because there wasn't enough fuel and this pump was operated by

21 petrol. So during a day, we would be able to tank water four or five

22 times, depending on the situation. And sometimes, if we had fires which

23 went on for a long time, then pursuant to an authorisation of the city

24 government, this pump would be left working longer, and water was then

25 available only to us. Nobody else could use this water.

Page 1293

1 Once we started distributing water to people, to residents, and

2 then we received information that a fire broke out somewhere, so we

3 immediately stopped distributing water to people and then went to

4 intervene to put out the fire. That was our primary duty.

5 Q. All right. Can I ask you, please, to put a W5 at the location --

6 if I understand your testimony, W4 is where the pump itself was located,

7 but you seemed to indicate that the water was then moved by pipeline to

8 another location where it was actually collected in the truck, if I

9 understand you. So can you mark the other collection point, the other end

10 of that system, if you will, with a W5.

11 A. I apologise. I have to digress. W4 marks precisely the location

12 of a water truck when they tanked water. If you want, I can mark with a

13 W5 the location where the pump was when it was pumping water. It was

14 right there on the riverbank, and I will mark it with W5.

15 Q. Okay. Thanks.

16 A. This is where the water was pumped, and then through the pipes it

17 was transported to Fejica Street, and this is where we tanked water into

18 our trucks.

19 Q. And again, sir, just so the record is clear, with this additional

20 testimony in the last few minutes, have you now shown us to the best of

21 your knowledge all the sources of drinking water for the people in East

22 Mostar in the second half of 1993?

23 A. Anybody can confirm this. I'm not the only one who knows this.

24 Any resident can tell you where water pumps were. There were simply no

25 other ones.

Page 1294

1 Q. Can you tell us, sir, during 1993, were there any efforts by the

2 HVO side to interrupt or stop the flow of water from any of these sources?

3 A. Whether there were any attempts to disrupt the water supply

4 through this valve or through the pipes that went over the old bridge, I

5 don't know that, but the fact is that there was constant water supply

6 through that system. And I suppose that it was because some of the valves

7 was not functioning properly, and they were not able to shut off water

8 supply. This is why there still was some water in the pipes.

9 As for tanking water from the Neretva, or pumping water from the

10 Neretva, in view of the configuration of the Neretva bank in that area,

11 the simplest thing for us would have been to pump water through our water

12 tanks, because there were no limitations to doing that. However, due to

13 the configuration of the banks, we simply had no access. We couldn't

14 approach the river with our trucks. Therefore, the only remaining

15 possibility was this pump in Djuro Salaj area. So that was the only

16 location where we were able to tank water.

17 It was widely known. It was no secret. And this area was

18 targeted dozens of sometimes, and our vehicles were damaged there dozens

19 of times too. The windshield -- windshields were damaged, the body of our

20 water trucks, tyres were also damaged. People were injured sometimes,

21 too. Fortunately, nobody was ever killed there.

22 Q. Was there at any time during 1993 a flood on the Neretva river

23 that interfered with the flow of water, drinking water?

24 A. Yes. This is also one of the unfortunate things. The left side

25 broke down, and once it was broken down, the water from the accumulation

Page 1295

1 lake rushed down the river, and it was very noisy. Before the water

2 reached us, we could hear the noise of an enormous quantity of water

3 rushing down.

4 As I told you, we had a pump pumping water from the river, and

5 when this huge amount of water reached it, fortunately it only turned the

6 pump upside down and knocked it on a rock which was there. People from

7 the water utility company - and this was in December - they undressed down

8 to their bathing suits -- I'm trying to remember the name of one of these

9 men. He jumped into the river, dived in, found the location where the

10 pump was. We figured that the pump did not float away because it was very

11 heavy. So he had some rope, and he was able to tie the pump with the

12 rope. And all of this was taking place in the morning hours, until 11.00

13 or 12.00 noon. In the afternoon hours, they started cleaning the motor of

14 the pump and also its parts, and the pump was operational again sometime

15 at around 7.00 in the evening and was able to pump water and supply it to

16 the residents.

17 Q. Are you aware, sir, of what caused the flood that knocked the pump

18 out, at least momentarily, at least for some time?

19 A. The only explanation is that the shut-off valve was -- was opened.

20 For a while, after the Washington Agreement, the shut-off valve was not

21 operational; destroyed, mined. I think that some kind of a water missile

22 destroyed it, a torpedo, something like that. This is my assumption. I

23 have nothing to support this. But the fact is that after the Washington

24 Agreement was signed and there was a cease-fire, this shut-off valve for a

25 long time was not operational until the dam was reconstructed.

Page 1296

1 Q. All right. Not going as far in time as the Washington agreement,

2 but if I direct your attention back to December of 1993, was there a time

3 that the dam on the Neretva River north of Mostar was destroyed?

4 A. Yes, that's right. I said a moment ago that it happened in

5 December when the pump fell into the river. And Torlo Miron was the name

6 of the man who dived into the river. He now works at the University of

7 Mostar. Before, he was an employee of the waterworks company, utility

8 company. He was the man who dived into the river, located the pump on the

9 riverbed, dived again a second time, tied the rope to the pump, and

10 managed to extract it. It was December. I can't be exact about the very

11 day.

12 Q. Do you know who destroyed the dam?

13 A. Well, I would prefer to say that I know who did not, because they

14 were members of the HVO who were there in that portion where that

15 happened.

16 Q. All right. Mr. Pejanovic, I would like to turn to more

17 specifically on the topic of sniping. You've mentioned before that you've

18 written a book about some of your experiences in Mostar; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. And what is the name of that book?

21 A. The book is called "Flames Above Mostar."

22 Q. And did you discuss in that book a number of sniping incidents

23 that took place during 1993?

24 A. I'd just like to ask you, and may I be allowed to add that I wrote

25 this about sniper incidents in 1992. So that it's not just one-sided.

Page 1297

1 And in the book that I wrote, I emphasise that the first victim among the

2 fire brigade was a close associate of mine, a very good young man, an

3 exceptionally good young man. He was Feijzlic Camin [phoen] and he was

4 our first victim and he fell victim to a Serb sniper.

5 Q. So your accounts of the sniping in Mostar started in 1992, and

6 then how long, over what period of time did you cover that?

7 A. Well, for the most part I think I dealt with 1992, a few months of

8 1992, or it would be better to say that I dealt with the period up until

9 the 11th of May, 1992, which was how long we were there, near the

10 supermarket, department store. So from that point towards the Bristol

11 Hotel in the space of a few days, well, I can't give you an exact figure,

12 but I think about seven persons were killed precisely because they were

13 running across Tito's bridge towards Brsol [phoen]. And one of our

14 members too was killed at Tito's bridge coming back from a fire that had

15 broken out the other side.

16 Q. Sir, is one of the incidents that you know about the killing of a

17 man named Uzeir Jugo? And forgive me if I mispronounce the first name;

18 Uzeir Jugo.

19 A. Yes, you said his name perfectly. Unfortunately, I said, God

20 willing, this will be the last victim. He was killed just a little while

21 after the truce was signed in 1994, the cease-fire between the Bosniaks

22 and Croats. I was present, together with another colleague of mine,

23 Dzemal Barakovic, and the late Jugo Uzeir, who was the driver on duty that

24 day. And before that unfortunate hour, together with his colleague Dzemal

25 Barakovic, saw to the tyres, pumped up the tyres, repaired the tyres. As

Page 1298

1 I said, a truce had already been signed, so a little time after the

2 signing of this cease-fire, this incident -- excessive incident took

3 place.

4 Q. All right. I'm -- now, looking back, before we go to one other

5 piece of information. So on the map that we were looking at earlier

6 today, you've already previously marked that, the location of the fire

7 brigade. I don't think we have to look at it again now, but the fire

8 brigade station was number 1 and the Razvitak building was number 2. Do

9 you remember that?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, with the assistance of the technical

12 team, we are going to show now a -- basically, it's a 360-degree

13 photograph taken from this -- the location where Mr. Jugo was killed, and

14 then I'll ask the witness to show -- to identify certain locations in the

15 photograph. If we can do that, please. This is exhibit -- forgive me,

16 it's Exhibit P09139.

17 First we'll do a full scope -- and I'll tell this for the

18 witness's sake too: We'll do a full view, a 360-degree view, and then

19 I'll come back to the beginning and ask the witness to identify several

20 locations.

21 Okay. Can we stop there for a moment.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

23 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but if I'm not

24 wrong, the witness said on -- when this story started, that this poor man

25 was killed after Washington Agreement. And if I'm not wrong, the

Page 1299

1 indictment -- time frame in the indictment is from September, 1991, until

2 the Washington Agreement. So it very well may be that we are now

3 discussing an incident which was obviously out of the time frame.

4 Nevertheless, since I took -- this is just one more information.

5 There were different incidents after the Washington Agreement in entire

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so if we accept to discuss this event or incident,

7 then probably we will discuss many of them.

8 I'm just trying to -- to show that perhaps we don't need that.

9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'll be happy to assist Mr. Kovacic. It

10 is charged in the indictment. It is specific incident number 14 in the

11 annex to paragraph 114 of the amended indictment. So if you have a

12 paragraph -- if you go to paragraph 114 and to the annex in reference to

13 that paragraph and you look at incident number 14, that is the incident

14 charged. And the period of the indictment continues well into March 1994,

15 to be exact.

16 MR. KOVACIC: I am aware of that citation, but that is exactly my

17 point: Is out of the frame of indictment.

18 MR. SCOTT: It's in the indictment, Your Honour.

19 MR. KOVACIC: But indictment does provide the frame, the time

20 frame. So you have to change the indictment. It is then not up to the

21 Washington Agreement.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, in paragraph 114,

23 in annex -- in the annex, you will find -- find the list of the victims,

24 and the last name mentioned is Uzeir Jugo, a driver of a red firefighter

25 truck, was hit in the chest on the 2nd of March, 1994.

Page 1300

1 Witness, when you talk about the death of Mr. Jugo in your book,

2 when was he killed?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that it was just after the

4 signing. Now, what the exact date is, I can now see that you said the 2nd

5 -- I think it was the end of January or the beginning of February when the

6 signing took place, whereas this incident quite certainly happened after

7 the signing of the agreement, because I remember we began walking about

8 normally, normally taking around water. We weren't as afraid of being

9 shelled after that. So I'm quite sure about that.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in your book, could you tell

11 us on what day this firefighter was killed?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At any rate, Your Honour, not me,

13 but there is a record in the civilian protection, because they were

14 duty-bound to report anyone wounded and dead to the civilian protection

15 organisation. He was hit one day and expired the following day.

16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, the certificate concerning the death of

17 this individual is Exhibit P07998, which indicates that Mr. Jugo was

18 killed on the 1st of March, 1994, which is in the exhibit that you have.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you have to be very

20 accurate. If you have the death certificate which is on the 1st of May,

21 why did you state that it was on the 2nd of May?

22 MR. SCOTT: I'll look at the indictment, Your Honour --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: March. I'm sorry.

24 MR. SCOTT: It was March. I think we just had an interpreter's

25 correction, Your Honour. We're talking about March of 1994.

Page 1301

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

2 MR. KOVACIC: If I may, Your Honour. We are about to use the

3 evidence in order to define, in order to find out whether this incident is

4 within or without of the scope or time frame of the indictment, then I

5 have to tell the following: First, the exhibit that my dear colleague

6 referred to is not yet tendered, is not yet admitted. So we don't know.

7 Second, the only evidence we have up to this moment is the

8 testimony of this gentleman, and this witness, during our discussions,

9 clearly said that he's sure that this person was -- that this person died

10 after the agreements, the Washington Agreements. Yes, the truth is he

11 also mixed up a little bit the time, he's not sure about, but he's certain

12 it was after the time of the Washington Agreement. And the -- and that's

13 it. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the Judges will

15 deliberate.

16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, before you do --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may proceed.

18 MR. SCOTT: Before -- this is -- with all respect to Mr. Kovacic,

19 this is -- this is not even a close point.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I said that the Judges will

21 deliberate in the future.

22 MR. SCOTT: All right. Your Honour, when we argue this, or we

23 submit further, if you look at paragraph 15, paragraph 115 and other parts

24 of the indictment, you'll see that the indictment extends on its face

25 until the April of 1994, has no connection to the date of the signing of

Page 1302

1 the Washington Agreement whatsoever. So, Mr. Kovacic, I'm afraid, with

2 all respect, is just simply mistaken about the significance of that date.

3 The indictment talks about April of 1994, specifically paragraph 110:

4 From June, 1993, to April, 1994, East Mostar was under siege. During this

5 time, from June -- paragraph 111: During this time from June, 1993, to

6 April, 1994, there was continued fighting, shelling, sniping. In

7 paragraph 114, paragraph 115, it's in the annex to the indictment.

8 Paragraph 117: The East Mostar siege ended around the 12th of April,

9 1994.

10 The incident is charged in the indictment specifically, and it's

11 within the time period covered by the indictment specifically.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may proceed.


14 Q. If we can go back to the 360-degree photo, please. Now, if you

15 can continue -- now, Mr. Pejanovic, if you can focus, please, now on the

16 photograph as it's moving, and I would like for you to -- when you see the

17 Razvitak building, can you please stop and tell us when you see that

18 building.

19 A. Go back a bit, please.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Stop. That is the place, the location where the cistern was.

22 From the post that you can see, or the edge of the wall, whichever you

23 like, the corner of the wall, it was a metre and a half away, plus the

24 width of the vehicle, so that it was on the very edge of the pavement.

25 Q. Let me -- it was translated as "cistern." I'm not sure. Perhaps

Page 1303

1 that's absolutely correct. Are you talking about the location of the

2 truck?

3 A. Water truck.

4 Q. And this is the water truck --

5 A. [No interpretation].

6 Q. We're not getting any interpretation. I know what it means, but I

7 think, for the record, we need interpretation. Can we get interpretation

8 of the witness's answer, please?

9 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the witness's answer.


11 Q. This is the location, sir, where you saw that the water truck was

12 located at the time Mr. Jugo was killed?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. All right. And can you continue the photograph and

15 identify to us anything else, like the fire station or the Razvitak

16 building.

17 A. This is the fire brigade where the water truck was standing. It

18 was, as I say, from the wall perhaps a metre and a half away from the

19 wall, plus its own width, which meant that it was right up against the

20 edge of the pavement. And my colleague Mr. Uzeir worked there repairing

21 the tyres, pumping up the tyres, patching them up. He did a bit of work

22 on the engine together with Djamakovic [phoen].

23 Sometime towards the end of work I told a female colleague of ours

24 who was in the office to make us some coffee, and while I was saying that

25 to her, I went outside, I stepped outside, and the two of them who were

Page 1304

1 standing round the vehicle started putting the equipment in order, taking

2 away the pump and so on, and Uzeir turned round, and as you're looking at

3 the photograph now where you can see the automobile parts poster, he

4 passed by along the left-hand side to the pavement to put away the

5 equipment they had been using to do the work. I was opposite the vehicle

6 myself, and Dzemo Barakovic was up in front, in front of the vehicle, in

7 front of the water truck.

8 At one point in time I hear the door shut, and I saw him say, "Oh,

9 God, oh, mother." And Dzemo Barakovic, who was in a better position

10 because I was opposite, said to me -- it was all a split second, happened

11 in a split second -- he said, "Uzeir has been hit." I ducked under the

12 truck and saw him. I saw the knee -- his knee and his left elbow. He was

13 resting on it to try and pull himself up. I have to say that at that

14 point in time he was wearing the uniform of the civilian protection, light

15 blue in colour. He had a wind cheater on as well.

16 We managed to take him across our building on a stretcher to the

17 ambulance that came straight away. We transported him to hospital. That

18 was between half past one and fifteen to two.

19 The next day, at that same time he died. And he had been given

20 six blood transfusions by that time. This caused a bit of a problem. It

21 was a zero positive blood group. We had to get that blood group in, and

22 that gave us a bit of a problem. But it was at this same time that he

23 actually expired.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why would you like to take the

25 floor?

Page 1305

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May I ask one question?

3 Because of the ballistic analysis, subsequent ballistic analysis, it would

4 be very important for us if the witness were to indicate the exact spot

5 where the person hit fell. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Normally speaking, you must put

7 your questions during the cross-examination, please. So this question is

8 a question we will get back to at a later stage. But this was a relevant

9 comment.

10 Could the witness tell us where he was standing and where his

11 friend fell. I did see the picture, but I would know -- like to know

12 exactly where the victim was standing and where --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

14 MR. SCOTT: [Previous translation continues] ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just ask.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Scott.

17 MR. SCOTT: I will do that, Your Honour, and the witness may be

18 able to assist us.

19 I will also indicate that there is other additional evidence

20 coming by video - not this photograph but a video - by which the witness

21 -- a witness has marked the location on the street, and you'll have that

22 in the course of the evidence as well.

23 Q. All right. Mr. Pejanovic, if you can, please, answer the

24 President -- Mr. -- the President's question. Looking at this photograph,

25 and you may not have exactly the right vantage point, but can you tell us

Page 1306

1 as much as you can where you were and where Mr. Jugo was when you saw him

2 lying -- I think you said he -- at one point he was resting on an elbow,

3 where he was located at that time.

4 If we can move the picture -- if you want us to move the picture

5 in one direction or the other, just please say so.

6 A. Back a bit, please. Move the picture back a bit. Stop. Fine.

7 A moment ago, you saw the edge of the wall. So between one and a

8 half and two metres away from that was the edge of the water truck. And

9 if you take it that the vehicle was about 1 metre, 80 centimetres wide, it

10 was a wide truck, then that would make the truck come up at the edge of

11 the pavement where this sign is, saying "Prodavnica."

12 He was moving towards the edge of the pavement. He opened the

13 door to the back part of the car or water truck, because the cabin was in

14 front and they kept the equipment underneath the front seat, and the --

15 what the -- the equipment they used to pump up the tyres.

16 At that moment when he put down his equipment underneath the seat

17 and went back to close the door, at that very moment I heard a scream and

18 he says, "Oh, mother." I was standing on the opposite side. If we go

19 back a bit again, I will show you where I was standing. That's right.

20 Roughly somewhere there, the edge of the wall, because I was coming from

21 the office, which is right behind this wall. Because I told our female

22 colleague to make us some coffee.

23 I had just stepped outside. I had been -- I was away from the

24 wall some 50 centimetres or a metre, facing the water truck. So I was

25 opposite the door to the vehicle where he was hit and where he fell. And

Page 1307

1 it was his left knee and left elbow that he was leaning against. And he

2 tried to -- he managed to come out to the front part of the vehicle so

3 that we were not in danger and so that we could pick him up and take him

4 away from the spot, which is what we did.

5 I know that when I took him to hospital or, rather, when he was

6 put up in hospital, the people there said that it was somewhere below the

7 right breast from the outside, from the back, that is, that he was hit

8 somewhere below the right breast, his right nipple, and that the exit

9 wound was there.

10 I'd like to stress once again I'm not a strategist myself,

11 strategic expert. I'm not a soldier. But they said that the bullet that

12 hit him was called a bone cracker and that it cut through his internal

13 organs, his diaphragm and liver, and that in fact he died as a result of

14 the bleeding, the internal bleeding. We gave him six bottles of blood,

15 blood transfusion over a period of 24 hours. I came to visit him towards

16 evening. He was in a coma. He wasn't conscious of anything. I went back

17 again in the morning. He was sweating, in a very poor state, completely

18 pale, and the doctors told me there was very little likelihood of him

19 surviving. But there you are, we always lived in the hope of surviving.

20 And as I say, he held out for 24 hours after the incident, and then

21 expired.

22 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, in reference to the photograph that's on the screen

23 now, do I understand your testimony correctly that then Mr. Jugo would

24 have been on the street side. You have the building on the photograph to

25 the right, and then you have the street side on the left. Mr. Jugo was on

Page 1308

1 the street side of the vehicle?

2 A. Yes. Yes. That's quite true. And that's how it would have been,

3 because when he opened the door to where you get in and sit down, then

4 that whole -- he had to come out for that whole width of the door. He had

5 to step beyond the pavement into the road.

6 Q. Now, could I ask you to -- we'll pan the photograph further

7 around. I don't know if we ever got to the point of identifying the

8 Razvitak building or not, but would you please tell us when you see the

9 Razvitak building.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you stop the image. One

11 technical detail. The Prosecution failed to think of this. Witness, you

12 say that he was hit by a bullet. Was it a single shot, or were there

13 several shots, one of which hit him in the back? Did you hear the noise

14 made by the shot?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One. And that one was fatal. It

16 set his destiny.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, was he -- was he there, I

18 mean, on the photo?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. That building, Razvitak,

20 was built towards the end of the 1970s.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, how can you account for the

22 fact that he could be hit -- the victim could be hit by a bullet whilst

23 with the angle of the shot and this building it would be difficult for him

24 to be hit by a bullet, because you have this high building just across the

25 road where, according to you, the one who shot the shot was.

Page 1309

1 MR. SCOTT: I think, Your Honour -- the witness can certainly

2 answer. I think there's a misunderstanding as to why the significance of

3 this location.

4 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, can you please answer the President's question as

5 best you can as to where you understood the shot came from that killed

6 Mr. Jugo.

7 A. Stop. The bullet had to come from the opposite side, from the

8 western part of town. My assumption is that it was somewhere near the

9 nowadays Spanish Square.

10 Can we take the footage back? Can I see the corner of the street,

11 please? Can you rewind a bit, and I will show you the location where

12 eight people were wounded in their arms, legs, or below their collarbones.

13 Stop.

14 Sir, look to the upper left corner. You see a blue facade there,

15 next to the traffic light. One metre away from this curve is a location

16 where eight people were injured. One of the eight was my colleague Cedo.

17 A bullet hit him just below his collarbone and exited below his shoulder.

18 In other cases, that of Refik Saric, he was coming back from the

19 hospital, the war hospital, which is located close to this corner, some 30

20 to 40 metres away. So coming back from the hospital where he had visited

21 his wounded son - he was wounded at the front - he was hit by a sniper in

22 his arm or hand. He had gloves on, and the bullet went through his

23 gloves. This is how he came to our premises.

24 Another five people were lightly wounded by a sniper in that

25 location. I assume, but I cannot be certain of this, that somewhere near

Page 1310

1 Spanish Square there had to be either some kind of a platform or a

2 location from which they could have easily climbed the trees and fire and

3 then quickly come down. The sniper was never discovered. Both sides used

4 snipers, because they targeted each other. This was widely known. And

5 this particular sniper was never discovered.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we're lucky to have this

7 360-degree photo. Could you not identify the place where this sniper was?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be hard, because it was on

9 the other side, not in the vicinity. Rather, it's not very far, but it's

10 the other side, across the bridge, behind the Bristol Hotel. I think

11 somewhere near Spanish Square.

12 If you look at this map, I can show you where Spanish Square is

13 and then you can see how far we were from that location, and you will be

14 able to see that it was very easy to fire from there.

15 For a long time there was a sniper location on the Privredna bank

16 building. There was a sniper there for a long time, and he had a great

17 view, because that was high enough so he would have a great view across

18 the Tito's bridge to our premises. And there in Hrasnica, five people

19 were injured, out of which three were killed.

20 The situation was such that we didn't dare approach a person who

21 was wounded because it would be risky to us. And we would simply throw a

22 rope, and if the person had enough strength, we would pull him out.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if I may assist. The witness just

24 referred to -- which is what I was going to take the witness back to the

25 map, Exhibit P09517, which we've been looking at today. And if that could

Page 1311

1 be placed -- if we can also have that on the ELMO, please.

2 Q. Now, to re-orient -- excuse me, re-orient us, sir, could you show

3 us again the location of the fire station, which I believe you marked this

4 morning as position number 1. Can you find your mark number 1 and point

5 to that, please.

6 A. Yes, it's right here. There is a circle and number 1. And then

7 across is a rectangle and number 2. This is the Razvitak department

8 store.

9 Q. So the photograph that we're looking at, is it correct, is of the

10 street and when we look down the street, it's the street running between

11 location number 1 and location number 2; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. This is called -- this street is called Brkica Street.

13 Q. Now, looking back to the map again, and we're going to have to go

14 back and forth here for a moment, can you indicate -- can you show by your

15 pencil where that street crosses the Neretva River and where it goes into

16 West Mostar, and would you stop when you get to Spanish Square.

17 A. Starting from this location where we just now were, where we're

18 located, this would be the direction taken. And then this takes us to

19 Spanish Square.

20 There are two possibilities. One is this: There is a street

21 called Drinski Street, and then in continuation there is Hrasnica and then

22 Safeta Mujica Street, and the other one is Ante Zuanica [phoen]. So there

23 in the corner there was the Privredna bank building, known as Glas Bank in

24 Mostar. So one possibility is that from that facility, this is where the

25 bullet came from, and the other possibility was that in Zrinjski Street

Page 1312

1 there was a platform from which they could easily climb up and then come

2 down and go away. So the platform option is my assumption.

3 As for the bank building, it's a fact that there was a small house

4 from which a sniper used to shoot.

5 Q. Now, if we could go back to the photograph, the 360-degree

6 photograph, please. Now, when you look up in the street in the direction

7 -- in the street going away from us, for the purposes of the record,

8 we're in the foreground by the Audi sign and the street is running away

9 from us, which direction is that street going? Is that going towards

10 Spanish Square and across the Neretva River, or going away from? Can you

11 tell us, please.

12 A. Behind this sign, Audi car parts, if you go further away, that

13 takes you to Spanish Square.

14 Q. And Mr. Jugo was standing essentially in the street, on the street

15 side of the vehicle at the time he was struck; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Yes, certainly.

17 Q. I think it's --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A question is going to be put by

19 the Judge.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Microphone not activated] ... and which this

23 picture might provide, the picture we are looking at might provide the

24 help. One can see hills in the background. Previously today you have

25 been asked about positions of guns. Could these be the hills you've been

Page 1313

1 talking about? One would be Hulet [phoen], if I have it in good memory,

2 and the other Brkanovo, or is it not related?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please accept this: It's somewhat

4 difficult to recognise the entire area from this angle, but let me tell

5 you, it's not Brkanovo hill. You can only see the portion of Brkanovo

6 hill which is above the roof tiles. And then there's a road, and then to

7 the right of the road there's another elevation where nowadays TV

8 transmitters are. This is where Mikuljaca Mount is, quite a large

9 mountain. So to the right of this road is where Mikuljaca Mount begins.

10 And to the left of this portion that's visible just above the roofs, this

11 is where Hum hill is, and it's a distinct feature. One can see it well.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Spanish Square, how far is

14 it in relation to the truck? How far is it if we believe what you say,

15 that there was a sniper between -- or on the Spanish Square? What is the

16 distance from the Spanish Square to this location?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, roughly speaking, I never

18 actually considered this because there was no need for that, but if one

19 took the road, it would be no more than 600 to 700 metres, maybe even

20 less. And as the crow flies, it would be even less.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this hill that you see in

22 the background, how far would that be, according to you?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's quite a distance from this

24 location. As far as I'm aware, the road taking to Brkanovo hill. One has

25 to go to Balinovac and then take the road to Citluk and then turn right,

Page 1314

1 so if one took the road, then it would be seven to 10 kilometres, roughly

2 speaking. Of course, as the crow flies, much less.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please proceed,

4 Mr. Scott. We needed these technical details. Thank you.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. All right. Mr. Pejanovic, I think we've actually touched on

7 another incident I want to direct your attention to where these five

8 persons who were shot on the corner, then if we can just scan through the

9 photograph again, I think you've already described that, but can you tell

10 us -- can you stop us again where you say that these five persons -- where

11 approximately five persons were shot by fire -- hit by fire.

12 A. Stop. On the frontal part of the photograph you see a red or dark

13 red building. This is the library on the ground floor, and flats are

14 above. To the right is a privately owned bakery. And where you see the

15 entrance into the yard of the library, so starting from the edge of the

16 bakery until the end where you see the traffic sign, this is the location

17 where a lot of people were hit. I think that five of them were killed or

18 wounded.

19 Q. Were any of your colleagues from the fire brigade wounded at that

20 -- about this location?

21 A. In this area, no, no. But to the beginning of the street -- if

22 you can rotate the picture to the right, please. Stop there. All right.

23 Well, right there, maybe one metre to metre and a half from the edge of

24 this building as one went towards our facility my colleague Edo Dostovic

25 was wounded. He's a member of the fire brigade to this day. And also Edo

Page 1315

1 Saric was wounded. A bullet hit him on the arm as he was coming back from

2 the hospital where he had visited his wounded son.

3 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, so the record is clear, when you say "the edge of

4 this building," there is a building on the far left edge of the photograph

5 that I would say is a kind of light green. Is that the building you're

6 talking about?

7 A. Yes. That's the building I have in mind. And as I said to you,

8 from the edge and then further to the front some two metres or two and a

9 half, I'm not sure, please don't hold me to this, it's hard to estimate.

10 But as far as I remember, that's how it was.

11 As soon as people emerged from behind the wall of the building,

12 this would happen. I even have to say - I just remembered this - for a

13 long time there on the wall there was a text saying, "Watch out for the

14 sniper." And that was a warning for everybody, and it remained there

15 until they renovated the facade of the building. This was a warning for

16 everybody.

17 Q. And apart from Mr. Dostovic, did you have any other fire brigade

18 colleagues who were killed and wounded at -- around this particular

19 location?

20 A. In this area, no, except for Dostovic. Riki Saric, my

21 acquaintance and friend, he was hit in his arm.

22 Q. Can you tell us, sir, around this general -- this same location

23 direction, around this Razvitak building, if we can pan back to the left,

24 please -- excuse me, to the right.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry to interrupt.

Page 1316

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I have a question to the record. On line 15, one

3 speaks of an Edo Saric, and now on page 103, line 9, it is Riki Saric, and

4 there is Edo Dostovic, I think. Maybe there has been a mistake.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Could you clarify that, sir. You mentioned Mr. Dostovic and you

7 did mention briefly, and my fault for not coming back to it, you mentioned

8 another name. Are these two different individuals or have you confused

9 the names of two different persons or are they separate incidents?

10 A. No. These are two different persons, and I apologise to all of

11 you if I misspoke. I'm trying to control what I'm saying as much as

12 possible. It's possible that I misspoke. So first Edo Dostovic was

13 wounded under his collarbone, and then Riki Saric was hit on his right

14 arm.

15 Q. And where was Mr. Saric located in reference to the photograph?

16 We've now moved the photograph, but in reference to the location we were

17 looking at previously.

18 A. Go back a bit, please. Stop. Right there. As I said, from this

19 light green facade some two to two and a half metres away from the corner

20 of the building towards the premises of the fire brigade. This is where

21 both Edo and Riki were hit, as well as Emina Dedic and many others who

22 were wounded there. Fortunately, none of them were killed there.

23 Q. If we can just pan a little bit more to the left. As we pan

24 further to the left, then you come back to the fire -- just so we see

25 where we are. Stop, please. This is coming back around to where the fire

Page 1317

1 headquarters are located. Is that correct, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And now if we can go back toward the Razvitak building -- excuse

4 me, the Razvitak building. Can you -- can you tell the Judges, please,

5 about any other sniping incident that took place in connection with the -

6 excuse me - Razvitak building? If I can assist you by directing you to

7 the 9th of May.

8 A. Yes, I know roughly what it's about. This is the instance where

9 the truck owned by Dervis Travnjak was hit. It was a light blue truck,

10 and it was parked approximately just below this billboard, except that at

11 the time there was no billboard there. So the building was parked roughly

12 there.

13 I was in the office together with a lady colleague of mine, and

14 you could see where our offices were. It was -- they were right next to

15 the pole, the electric pole. And then all of a sudden I heard several

16 individual fire shots, and I thought that somebody was targeting the

17 traffic sign, some of the snipers who had nothing better to do. The

18 traffic sign had always been there, because this is the main road, and

19 everybody coming from different roads have to yield. So I supposed that

20 somebody was shooting at the traffic sign, and I went outside in front of

21 our headquarters to see what was going on, and then I heard shots, and I

22 saw that the sign was not hit. And when I looked better, I saw the truck

23 was hit. I don't want to exaggerate, but I think seven to eight shots

24 were fired towards the motor of the truck, and then four or five hit the

25 windshield. And all of a sudden it occurred to me that they were trying

Page 1318

1 to set the truck on fire. So they weren't really targeting the motor or

2 anything like else, they were trying to set it on fire.

3 And as I was thinking about that, I saw that the seats started --

4 the smoke started rising from the seats. And then I ran back into our

5 headquarters, and one of my colleagues ran back to the truck. The truck

6 was not locked. I mean, he wanted to do that, but I didn't allow him to

7 run back to the truck and to move it from that location.

8 And what was peculiar is that the sniper wasn't trying to target

9 my colleague. My colleague came to the truck. He opened the door, and as

10 I told you previously, we received a tank truck from our French colleagues

11 which could carry 1.000 litres. And the water truck, we pulled it out

12 just a little bit so that we could take the hose out - the hose was some

13 50 metres long - and we put out the fire or, rather, the seat that was

14 smoking, and the shooting stopped. And then somebody went to inform the

15 owner of the truck about what happened, and then as soon as it became

16 dark, he moved the truck from there, and I don't know what happened

17 afterwards.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have to have a break. It is

19 now quarter to three. We shall resume at 3.00 for an hour.

20 --- Recess taken at 2.45 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 3.02 p.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing will now

23 resume. Before I give the floor to Mr. Scott, Judge Trechsel has a

24 question he would like to put to the witness. It concerns a technical

25 matter.

Page 1319

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sorry. I would like to have some technical

3 assistance in the sense that the picture be moved to the left until we

4 have the view towards the west. No, the other direction, please. Yes.

5 Now, we were told that the sniper shot most probably, I assume,

6 more or less from the area around the P sign, the parking lot sign. I

7 wonder whether it existed already at that time. And I wonder whether the

8 witness could show us on this picture which windows he thinks could be the

9 ones behind which the sniper was, or which rooftop. He has -- you have,

10 sir, indicated certain locations. You have named them. But it would be

11 helpful if we could also see them on this picture, because the distance

12 makes the sniper story a bit delicate. So if you could show us. Thank

13 you.

14 I have just been instructed that there is no possibility on this

15 video to actually technically apply a fingertip or a flesh -- an

16 indicator, but perhaps you could describe.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I will try to do that. I

18 will go back to the map that we have.

19 On the map, I pointed very clearly to the location of our

20 headquarters, the position of the fire brigade, as well as the Spanish

21 Square location. I have no other locations to point out to you. I showed

22 you where our position was --

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. It must be a misunderstanding. I was

24 attentive when you spoke of the map and showed of the map, but we are now

25 located, unless you tell me that I'm wrong, where the victim was standing,

Page 1320

1 or crouching, when he was shot. Now, in sheer logic, from here you must

2 see the place from where the sniper shot, and I would like to see this. I

3 would like you to tell me what place this could be on the picture, not on

4 the map.

5 So perhaps by description. For instance, saying you take the top

6 left angle of the blue parking sign and go up one centimetre, there seems

7 to be a rooftop; in this way.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I will be very clear, just like

9 I was before. My position in relation to the victim was opposite. I was

10 on the opposite side in view of the vehicle. From this location, there is

11 nothing I can show you. I can show you nothing with my finger. You can't

12 see the place from which this shooting came, because it is not on this

13 picture. This is why I pointed you to the map. And on the map, I showed

14 you the location of the Privredna bank building. And there, in the little

15 elevator hut, there was an opening from which they fired.

16 I told you that snipers from the opposite side tried to hit that

17 sniper to put him out of action. The location that you are interested in

18 is not on this photograph. It can only be shown to you on the map to show

19 you where our location was and where the bank from which the sniper fired

20 was located.

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry if I'm a bit insisting, but probably

22 I've got something wrong, and I would like to be corrected. I thought

23 that the position of the camera that takes this picture we see is

24 practically identical to the position not where you were but where the

25 victim who was shot at was, and normally a bullet goes in a straight line,

Page 1321

1 which means that from the location of the victims - and this was not

2 mortar shooting, it was a bullet - you are supposed to see the place where

3 the bullet left the weapon.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no theoretical chance for

5 me to see that location, nor did I ever claim so. On the contrary, I said

6 that I was on the right side, facing the front of the vehicle. So I was

7 on the right of the vehicle, which was right next to the edge of the

8 sidewalk. And as the driver opened the door of the vehicle to put

9 equipment inside, whether he wanted it or not, he was basically left

10 unprotected, standing in the street. And I don't know where the sniper

11 was located, but he was in his view.

12 I gave you two options where the sniper may have been located in

13 the vicinity of Spanish Square, and it can only be seen, Spanish Square,

14 on the map, not on this picture.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation].

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, it may assist, and particularly for

17 Judge Trechsel, there will be -- there will be other witnesses who will

18 talk about this particular incident and one who was closer to the actual

19 spot than Mr. Pejanovic. So this will not be the only evidence on this

20 point.

21 Q. Sir, in this same general area, before the break, before we leave

22 this location, can you tell the Judges whether there was what -- what you

23 believe to be a sniping incident when there were a large number of Muslim

24 civilians gathered outside the Razvitak building? And can you describe

25 that incident to the Judges, please.

Page 1322

1 A. Right now, or right at that moment where the truck was hit in

2 front of the Razvitak building, is that what you have in mind? Do you

3 mean the incident when the truck was targeted by a sniper?

4 Q. No, you told us about the time where the truck was hit, right

5 before the break, and when there was an attempt, according to you, to set

6 the truck on fire. Was there another incident - and if you don't recall,

7 I'll move on - was there another incident where there were a large number

8 of Muslim civilians gathered in the vicinity of the Razvitak building in

9 which you believe a sniper shot was fired?

10 A. Yes, I remember that.

11 Q. Please tell us.

12 A. I remember that event. I'm sorry, I didn't immediately understand

13 your question. I thought that you wanted some clarification about the

14 previous incident.

15 What happened on this occasion was this: After the 9th of May,

16 when the conflict erupted, and then a week or two afterwards a compromise

17 was reached and the shooting and shelling stopped. At one point they said

18 that all of those who wanted to go back to their apartments in Western

19 Mostar should go, report to their local communes and MUP and so on, and a

20 lot of people followed that advice. And then at they started organising

21 for the people to cross over to the right bank. It was done in an

22 organised way. Nobody who was not recorded could cross to the other side.

23 They had to put their names on a list first.

24 If you take the camera angle a bit back, if you rewind this

25 excerpt a little bit -- no, no, to the opposite side, please. Just a bit

Page 1323

1 more. Stop here. Thank you.

2 So here in this section behind the Razvitak building, I think that

3 right there in that location there were about 1.000 to 1.500 people,

4 prepared to go back because they had been told that an agreement had been

5 reached and that they could go back to their homes. This was done in an

6 organised way. People were boarding buses, private cars. Whoever had

7 what, they were getting in and getting ready to cross to the other side.

8 If you take the footage back a little bit, we need to see the

9 zebra crossing, the pedestrian crossing. Thank you, that's fine. So as

10 the people were boarding buses to go to the other bank, I stood there on

11 the sidewalk a bit further away from this sign, which means I was able to

12 see clearly how people were boarding buses, vehicles, and so on. And

13 then, right then, a pigeon landed from the Razvitak building down there,

14 and within a second or two it was shot by a sniper. And I don't think

15 that a clearer message could have been sent to those who were trying to go

16 back and with us boarding buses and cars and so on.

17 Q. Let me direct your attention now, leaving -- leaving this

18 photograph. Can you tell us, please, anything you know about the shooting

19 of Mirzo Hamzic.

20 A. A correction. There was no shooting at Mirzo Hamzic. It was the

21 facility that was set fire to.

22 Q. My apology. Please tell us about that.

23 A. In the morning, at around 5.30 a.m., we received a report

24 according to which Mirzo Hamzic's house was on fire, and that is not far

25 from our own premises, so it wasn't a great problem for us to approach the

Page 1324

1 house. And when we got there, we saw that the roof was on fire.

2 It's the general rule that you never approach a building on fire

3 too close. You always park the truck a little further away. That's a

4 tactical rule so that if the building is damaged and topples, the vehicle

5 is not damaged.

6 So we stopped at some 50 to 60 metres away from the house, and we

7 tried to position our hose towards the building. While we were getting

8 ready to do this and start putting out the fire, a sniper started shooting

9 at us. While I was in the vehicle, sitting next to the driver, a sniper

10 bullet shot past between the two of us and lodged in the seat. After

11 that, there were a series of shots which hit the front part of our

12 vehicle, the engine, the motor, in order to try and destroy it.

13 Realising the situation we were facing, I said, "Let's all get out

14 of the vehicle," because there were two other people, two other colleagues

15 sitting behind us. We left the truck, got down from the truck, and the

16 shooting did not cease. We were positioned right behind the vehicle. It

17 was a TAP vehicle, 125, or T-10. I'm sorry. It was a T-10 type truck.

18 But we weren't able to take shelter in somebody's house or yard and run

19 across the road because of the sniper.

20 While we were standing there behind the vehicle, we could just see

21 the two front tyres which were pierced by sniper fire and the tyres went

22 down. Three or four other rifle grenades were heard nearby, rifle launch

23 grenades, and a man, Zezemi [phoen], told us to go into his house. We

24 entered the house, and the rifle grenade gunfire continued. We were in

25 the house with him and his wife. We had a cup of coffee, and after that

Page 1325

1 we went outside and edged along the wall to get to our own premises. And

2 then in the evening, we had to tow our truck off because there was no

3 other way in which we could pull it out. Then we had to repair the tyres.

4 Luckily, the motor wasn't too badly damaged.

5 Q. Sir, can you look again at the map, Exhibit 9517, and can you mark

6 -- find on that map and mark with the letter E the location that you were

7 at, where the truck was located at this incident.

8 A. Opposite the street where it says, "Balaga," this is Cveci Street

9 [phoen], the one to the left. Where the X is, the second street to the

10 left. The first street is shorter. The second street is a little longer.

11 It was at this street, at the bottom of the street. We were about 50 to

12 60 metres away from the building, as I said, so towards the end of the

13 street. The building is right on the banks of the river Neretva. That's

14 the location.

15 What did you want me to place there, mark it how?

16 Q. The letter E, please.

17 A. Done.

18 Q. And did you at that time from your -- again from your knowledge of

19 Mostar and this vicinity, did you have an understanding of where the shots

20 were likely coming from?

21 A. No dilemma there. I can tell you straight away. It could not

22 have come from anywhere else but from the secondary school building called

23 Aleksa Santic school.

24 Q. Can you show us that location, please, on the map and mark it with

25 the letter F.

Page 1326

1 A. Where it says Spanish Square. So just off Spanish Square, 10 to

2 15 metres away. That was the location. That's where the secondary school

3 building was. It was on the corner between Drinski Street and the Bulevar

4 or, rather, the Spanish Square. It's back from -- it's some 10 metres

5 back from the road, it's old building, and this is how it is positioned.

6 It's a horseshoe shape. That's what it is. What, did you want F there?

7 Did you want an F there?

8 Q. Yes, please.

9 A. Done, thank you.

10 Q. And is that location also known as the gymnasium?

11 A. Yes, yes. The gymnasium, yes. Secondary school. And it's a

12 secondary school to this day.

13 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention next to an incident at a

14 location called the Saric Harem. Can you tell us about that, please. And

15 give us --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You can start by giving us the approximate date of that incident.

18 A. It was July. I know that full well. It was very hot. It was

19 about 1.00 when we received the first information about the fire. I'll

20 try here, where it says "port," there's an X, where Saric mosque is. So

21 lower down from this X -- actually, the mosque is at the beginning of the

22 Harem. So that's where it is. Where it says Luka, L-u-k-a, and I put X1,

23 because the mosque was X, and this is X1.

24 Q. All right. Can we -- can the ELMO be adjusted, please, so that we

25 can see that. Up and to the right. Probably the opposite direction for

Page 1327

1 you, perhaps. Yes. Thank you very much.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. Here you can see it. There's an X here. That's the mosque. But

5 the mosque is at the start of the Harem, and it stretches this way,

6 backwards, about 4 to 500 metres. That's the Harem area.

7 We received this information about 1.00. We didn't go out on

8 location straight away for several reasons. One of the main reasons was

9 that at that point in time we didn't have a water truck ready, because the

10 water trucks were already being used and had taken all the water.

11 Second, to be quite frank, I never allowed, as leader of the unit,

12 for two brothers or two relatives to go out on one assignment or to send

13 people where I felt they would be unsafe and insecure. So I always

14 waited, counted to 10, and then made my decisions, and that's what I did

15 on that occasion as well.

16 As luck would have it in this general situation, there was nothing

17 to be burnt down in the Harem, just the stone, the stone and the wood and

18 the graves; nothing particular. So waiting for a water truck to return

19 and looking at tactics, generally speaking, we left some -- at about half

20 past two. There were several calls coming in, saying that the flames were

21 burning and spreading. We went to the location of the fire -- or, rather,

22 we were at Marsal Tito Street, halfway -- I would say halfway down the

23 Harem.

24 We set up a hose channel, and some of my colleagues entered the

25 Harem by edging against the wall. I stayed with the driver by the water

Page 1328

1 truck. We had a radio station, communication, and we said we would only

2 call if there was a burning need to do so.

3 At one point in time, they managed to cover half the burning area

4 and deal with half the area that was aflame. I was standing behind the

5 water tank, at the valve, and I was grazed. I saw that it was a casing of

6 -- a bullet casing that had grazed me. Just a surface graze and a little

7 bleeding.

8 While I was looking to see what had happened to me, the driver

9 came up to me and said, "They're shooting at us again with a sniper." And

10 I said, "Yes, and they just got me here," and I showed him where my arm

11 had been grazed. All this happened in a split second. Then the shooting

12 became continuous, and I said, "What shall we do?" And at that time my

13 colleagues who were in the Harem called me and said, "What shall we do?"

14 And I said, "Well, let's -- stay where you are, but try and withdraw and

15 escape towards the mosque."

16 I unbuttoned the hose, detached it from the truck, threw it onto

17 the pavement, and told the driver to drive back a bit, in reverse, to

18 reverse. That's what he did, and I tried to run alongside the truck as

19 far as I was able. I was exhausted myself, to tell you the truth. And I

20 just gave him a sign with my hand that he should carry on, continue.

21 I threw myself up against a wall, and underneath Marsal Tito

22 Street there was another Harem that was built in 1993, because there

23 wasn't enough space to bury the dead in the first one. So I lay down on

24 the asphalt there, protected by this wall and some bushes, and when I had

25 caught my breath I continued running with my head down. I ran for another

Page 1329

1 100 metres, then took a bit of a rest and tried a third time, and I

2 managed to escape the sniper fire.

3 In the meantime, my colleagues came back from the Harem. But

4 while we were doing all this, while all this was going on, detaching the

5 hose and all that kind of thing, there was a man whom I knew by sight.

6 He's an elderly man, a short -- of short build. He jumped off the wall of

7 the Harem, and I said, "Run. You'll be hit again," because I saw that he

8 had already been wounded above his ankle. There was bleeding from the

9 ankle and he'd bandaged up the wound with a handkerchief. He went

10 northwards and we went southwards, and that's how we managed to escape,

11 running alongside the wall.

12 And at Tekija, a little further off -- some 400 metres away is the

13 settlement called Tekija, which was where the out-clinic's patient was --

14 out-clinic department was, and he went there to get help and he's alive

15 and well today, so the wounding wasn't that serious.

16 And we managed to pull ourselves out. The truck stayed there

17 until the evening, and then we came to tow it away with another truck and

18 all the equipment there. There were about 15 fire extinguishing hoses and

19 all the rest of the equipment.

20 Q. Now, sir, is this -- the incident that you told us about just in

21 the last few minutes, is this the incident that is referenced on page 69

22 of your book, the incident on the 27th of July, 1993?

23 A. Possibly. Quite possibly. Most probably it is. I can't check

24 that, but, yes, I do know it was July, and I know that we spent a little

25 time wondering what tactics to apply.

Page 1330

1 Q. During the time that this was going on, or even when you went to

2 this location, did you know that area to be -- to believe to be or known

3 to be -- at the time to be exposed to sniper fire from a particular

4 location?

5 A. To be quite frank, I did know that it was in that area that there

6 was a sniper's nest, because on several occasions -- well, it wasn't only

7 I myself who knew about that. All of us moving around that area knew

8 about that. That's why I said that I spent a little time to decide

9 whether to go out straight away, because it was risky business. And now,

10 looking at it from this distance in time, I would say that it was madness

11 to go out and try and put out the fire, but I suppose that's what us

12 firemen are like. So I suppose we decided to go out.

13 That's all I can tell you. It was just madness to go out into an

14 open space like that. And the -- you could see everything just like I'm

15 looking at you now. Everything was in full view.

16 But anyway, we went out on this assignment, if nothing else to

17 help the people who had called us in.

18 Q. If you recall, sir, can you tell the Judges the name or give them

19 some reference to this suspected or widely known sniper location? Can you

20 give it a name or some point of reference?

21 A. Well, in the briefest possible terms, it was at an elevation by

22 Donja Mahala. Until this damn war, I didn't know that this was called

23 Visnjica or Stotina or whatever. I knew it as Cekak, because as a pupil I

24 would go to that locality where we had some target shooting when I was at

25 school. There was no settlement there. Later on, a rather large

Page 1331

1 settlement was built there. So that was the general area from which they

2 targeted the other parts.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pejanovic.

4 MR. SCOTT: With the assistance of the technical booth, could we

5 please play the video that's marked as Exhibit P09140. 9140.

6 And excuse me. Can I ask the interpreters, please, if they can

7 interpret the B/C/S interpretation because the person there on the scene

8 is speaking into the microphone. That's the part that should be

9 interpreted by the courtroom interpreters, please.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover]:

12 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, to the best of your recollection,

13 could you please indicate the location of the fire truck?

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you. To the best of your recollection, could

16 you please indicate where the firefighters were extinguishing the fire.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Thank you. To the best of your recollection, could

19 you please indicate where you were standing when you were shot.

20 A. There.

21 Q. Could you please indicate the direction from where

22 the shots came from?

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Thank you. To the best of your recollection, could

25 you please indicate where you first saw the old man who was walking

Page 1332

1 towards you and who told you that had been shot at?

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Thank you. I will now mark with a yellow X the spot

4 where the witness was shot.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Shall I interpret?

6 A. Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings,

7 the witness, only the fifth one, was shot and was wounded, none of us

8 were. He did not have anything to do with us. He was the one who was

9 shot.

10 Q. Thank you."


12 Q. Now, if we can please then go on to the next -- to Exhibit P09139,

13 which again is another 360-degree photograph. We will come back to these

14 other locations in the future, these other aspects in the future. We'll

15 first of all do, again, to orient everyone and the witness, a full

16 revolution.

17 Mr. Pejanovic, you were there at the time that this photograph was

18 being made, as we saw in the other video; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And when the -- the X was marked on the street, you saw that and

21 you'd agree that that was the location, that was the appropriate location?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. As we next -- as we make the next rotation in the photograph, if

24 you can see the Stotina location, the Stotina houses, could you please

25 tell us to stop.

Page 1333

1 A. Stop. In the background to the left behind this roof, the spot

2 you have focused on, the spot indicated by the arrow, that is the area

3 concerned. And now we have an even better view.

4 Q. Can you indicate -- in reference -- there's a house -- there's an

5 old house or part of a house in the very -- basically, the middle of the

6 photograph, or what appears to be a chimney. Using that as a reference

7 point, can you point the Judges then in the direction of the location that

8 you're referring to as Stotina or the Stotina houses?

9 A. The building that is on fire is a Serbian one which was put -- set

10 on fire in 1992. To the right of that building there is a private house.

11 Could you please rotate the photograph a bit to the -- to the left, and

12 then I will tell you why I want you to do this. A little to the left,

13 please. A little more. Just a little more. Stop.

14 Behind these houses -- behind this house and the hill, since the

15 time of Austro-Hungary, there is a bunker which has been dug in. I've

16 discovered this bunker quite by chance in around 1985 or 1986, I'm not

17 quite sure, though. There was a fire right along this hill and right up

18 to the primary school.

19 In this part -- in this pass, there was a sort of firing range

20 which we would use to train when we were pupils. And in that area, as I

21 have already said, there is a bunker with concrete trenches in very good

22 condition.

23 When we were putting a fire out on one occasion, I discovered this

24 quite by chance. It could have been used to billet units there. And it

25 could have been used as a position from which they could open fire. It's

Page 1334

1 a very safe site. A bunker is almost completely underground and it's made

2 of concrete, and there are also some trenches there.

3 Q. And can you also show, then, in this photograph, if I can -- in

4 reference to -- again, if you can use the reference point of the chimney,

5 the chimney on the -- the highest chimney there now to the centre left, do

6 you see where the cursor is, the pointer is on the screen?

7 A. Yes, I can.

8 Q. Okay. In reference to that point, can you again please point out

9 to the Judges the area or location known as Stotina.

10 A. This entire pass is -- bears that name. Up until this cursed war,

11 as I have already said, we called this place Cekek. I wasn't familiar

12 with this other name. It was only in the course of the war that I

13 discovered that two other names were used for this place; Stotina, and

14 Visica [phoen].

15 Q. Where the cursor is now, is this the area that is known as

16 Stotina?

17 A. More or less, because on this slope, as I have already said, there

18 is a bunker. I can claim this with full responsibility.

19 Q. All right. Moving forward, sir. And also in your book, on the

20 1st of August, 1993, you reference a sniping incident at Musala. Can you

21 tell us about that?

22 A. Well, a doctor from Mostar, a gynaecologist, went to collect some

23 water for his house. It's in the immediate vicinity of the square, or to

24 be more precise, in the immediate vicinity of the mosque that is located

25 there. I think he was hit by a sniper as soon as he went out into the

Page 1335

1 street. The former Putnik used to be there, the Putnik company, and I

2 think that Benetton has a site there, or in fact I'm sure that Benetton is

3 located there now.

4 Q. Were you fighting fires in that vicinity on that day, on the 1st

5 of August, 1993?

6 A. We passed through that area. We passed through that area, and the

7 main problem was to get from our premises to the Musala square. There was

8 an area that was very much exposed to sniper fire, hence the claim that

9 fire could only have been opened from the Privredna Banka, the Privredna

10 bank, because as soon as you set off from the bridge in Musala, you were

11 protected. The former Revija building and the Hotel Bristol protected

12 you. So the sniper had no visibility there. There was only another area

13 where there was -- where things were visible for the sniper, that is if

14 you turned into Adema Buca Street. After you crossed Tito's bridge, it's

15 the first street on the left. He could see you from there but only if he

16 was really waiting for you, then he could hit you. But it was dangerous

17 when we moved from our premises to Tito's bridge.

18 Q. Could you please look at the map again on the ELMO, and place the

19 letter H at the location of this -- the bridge that you referred to now

20 and in connection with the incident you've just told us about.

21 A. With your leave, B1 has been used to mark Tito's bridge, and

22 behind the bridge, at the first crossroads, at the street which is

23 parallel to Santic Street, here we have marked it with B1, that's the

24 street, and the name of the street is Adema Buca.

25 Q. Could you make an H there, please.

Page 1336

1 A. Done.

2 Q. Now, also in your book you talk about on the 2nd of August, 1993,

3 a shelling of a residential block called Beirut. Can you tell us about

4 that.

5 A. Before we intervened that day, there was some intense shelling

6 that lasted for quite a long time, intense mortar shelling. We were then

7 informed there was a flat on fire in the Beirut block. We had intervened

8 there on a number of occasions because sometimes a shell would fall

9 outside, but it would hit an area where there were a lot of old newspapers

10 and set them on fire. So we had a lot of problems as a result, and we

11 intervened on a number of occasions. But in this case it was a flat that

12 was on fire and we used two vehicles when we intervened. One of the

13 vehicles was a TAM 125 PT-10, which has five cubic -- 1.800 litres of

14 water. And we had a Zastava, which has four cubic metres of water. Since

15 it doesn't have a strong water pump, we used the TAM as the vehicle that

16 could put the fire out. In order to get enough water, in order to get

17 enough water, we poured water from the Zastava into the other vehicle, and

18 then the other vehicle was used to put out the fire in the flat on the

19 fourth floor. The flat was set on fire from the northern side.

20 At that time, there was the driver who was sitting in the Zastava

21 vehicle, and he started looking for a lighter to light a cigarette. Since

22 he couldn't find a lighter, he got out, approached his colleague who was

23 in the entrance to the Beirut building. He approached him. He wanted to

24 light a cigarette, and a new shell fell. But it was really incredible.

25 It was quite by chance that he was there. But it's only thanks to the

Page 1337

1 fact that he couldn't find his lighter and that he couldn't light his

2 cigarette and went to see his colleague that he survived. Otherwise, he

3 would have been torn to pieces.

4 What is even more ironical is that when the vehicle that had been

5 hit and set on fire was taken back by us at night and we tried to check

6 the vehicle to see if we could repair it and get it to function again,

7 believe it or not, on the left side between the gear-shift and the seat we

8 found the lighter, and that was quite fortunate, because if he had found

9 the lighter when he was looking for it, he would have been torn to pieces.

10 Q. In this particular occasion -- on this particular occasion, sir,

11 just so the record is clear, are you talking about a sniper fire or are

12 you talking about a shell, getting hit by some sort of artillery shell or

13 heavier weapon?

14 A. Yes. It was a mortar shell. That's certain. And quite by chance

15 it fell where it fell. The vehicle was in such a position that he would

16 have been hit if he hadn't gone to light his cigarette by approaching his

17 colleague and by getting out of the vehicle.

18 Q. Can I ask you once again to look at the map and to mark the

19 location of this incident with the letter I.

20 A. Done.

21 Q. Thank you. Sir, if I can next direct your attention -- also in

22 your book you mention an incident on the 8th of August, 1993, at Lace

23 Street, number 37.

24 A. I'm not quite familiar with this street. I don't think it

25 exists.

Page 1338

1 Q. I apologise. The full name, I believe, is Hasan Zahirovic Lace

2 Street.

3 A. Zahirovic Lace Street. Yes, that's right. There was a building

4 almost at the bank of the Neretva or, rather, it's about 150 metres from

5 the bank, and the building was also set on fire in the evening -- or,

6 rather, it was just before dawn when we were informed of the fire. We

7 tried to cross over. We tried to get over through a roof so that we could

8 put the fire out from the inside, but as soon as we appeared, as soon as

9 we reached the roof of that building, there was a sniper who was opening

10 fire there. That building was opposite the prison and in the immediate

11 vicinity of the cantonal court. And the post office is there as well as

12 the prison. These facilities are all linked up, so it's quite possible

13 that a sniper opened fire from one of those buildings. The visibility was

14 perfect. I believe he wouldn't even have needed a sniper, he could have

15 used more traditional weapons.

16 So we made a couple of attempts to climb over the roof to put the

17 fire out. The building burnt down.

18 If the owner of the garage or the house had given us access to his

19 garage or house we probably would have been able to do more.

20 Unfortunately, this wasn't the case. We reported matter to the police. I

21 don't know what then happened, because it's not my responsibility to try

22 and receive such information. My responsibility was to intervene in the

23 field.

24 Q. On this particular occasion, sir, did you -- if I missed this, I

25 apologise. Were you receiving only rifle fire or were you also -- or were

Page 1339

1 also rocket propelled grenades or RPGs fired at you?

2 A. No. It was just infantry fire. Infantry weapons were used.

3 Q. And could we again have on the map, please. Can you show us and

4 mark with the letter J this house that you responded to in order to put

5 out a fire.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we have another three

7 minutes.

8 MR. SCOTT: I will finish up, I think, with one or two more

9 questions for now, Your Honour, if I can.

10 Q. Mr. Pejanovic, can you also mark with the letter K the -- you

11 mentioned a prison a moment ago. Can you mark that location with the

12 letter K.

13 A. The cantonal court was here, and the prison and the post office.

14 Three buildings next to each other. And they're located opposite the

15 building that was on fire.

16 And there's something else I would like to add.

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. In the immediate vicinity the building that was on fire, I believe

19 that there were two civilians who were hit and killed.

20 Q. In connection with this particular incident or on another

21 occasion?

22 A. No, before this incident, two civilians were killed.

23 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I suggest we stop there. I estimate

24 that I probably have something around 25 minutes or less, I hope. There's

25 one or two additional incident -- final incidents, and then there's some

Page 1340

1 of these incident reports to go through that are marked as exhibits, and a

2 couple final questions, and I hope that altogether it would not take more

3 than approximately 25 minutes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, because tomorrow the

5 hearing starts at 9.00 and we finish at 1.45. So during that period of

6 time, you'll have to put your outstanding questions to the witness, and

7 the Defence must conduct its cross-examination. If we fail to finish by

8 1.45, it will be necessary for the witness to stay on until next Monday.

9 I therefore invite the Defence to focus on essential matters, because we

10 have spent an hour on the subject of water, and I fail to see the exact

11 interest of this subject.

12 I can see that Mr. Karnavas is raising his hand. Mr. Karnavas,

13 what would you like to say?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Just four very quick points, Your Honour. First of

15 all, earlier the Prosecution used their programme called Sanction, and I

16 know we're off to a new trial and we're all perhaps a little rusty, but

17 when we go back to the transcript, it's here, there, everywhere being

18 pointed out, nothing marked on an exhibit. So we have this film going

19 back and forth. It will be impossible, I think, at some point to

20 determine where exactly the gentleman is pointing at. I would suggest,

21 and I would urge that in the future if they do intend to use Sanction that

22 they freeze some frames, take some photographs, that way we can have them

23 marked. Otherwise, it makes it very difficult for us to cross-examine on

24 something that was said "here" and "there," and frankly, it's trial

25 advocacy 101.

Page 1341

1 Second of all, the gentleman was in a film and we could see some

2 new buildings. I would appreciate from now on if they would take the

3 trouble to ask the witness first if it's a fair and accurate

4 representation of the scene at the time of the incident. If new buildings

5 have gone up, if the terrain has been changed, we need to know that,

6 especially with respect to what we're talking about, because as a point

7 that was made by General Praljak, and rightly so, at some point we may

8 need to get into a discussion as to the location of these potential

9 snipers.

10 Thirdly, the Prosecution at one point in not doing so out of -- in

11 trying to get edge, in my opinion, but perhaps in trying to speed up the

12 process, used the pointer and in other words was leading the witness and

13 suggesting something to the witness itself. Again, perhaps if they were

14 to provide a picture, then they could ask the witness to point -- to point

15 it out as opposed to the Prosecutor pointing it out to the witness. Then

16 it's the Prosecutor testifying and not the witness. Again, it's their

17 witness, it's direct examination.

18 Finally, and again I apologise, I know we've got to get out of the

19 courtroom, but I'm a little concerned about this new incident that was

20 brought up that's not in the proofing notes. It's nowhere in the

21 disclosure material, and Your Honour Mr. President, you indicated whether

22 it was for context. Now, I must say that it raises a concern, especially

23 if we read the Stakic appeal judgement, and I believe there may be some

24 messages in the Tuta judgement or the Naletilic judgement, appeal

25 judgement that came out yesterday. By that I mean if -- in the Stakic

Page 1342

1 appeal judgement it was very clear that they can use background for

2 context and base that in order to use it for circumstantial evidence to

3 prove a point. Obviously I have to get into that. On this particular

4 occasion, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I certainly don't want

5 that happening in the future. It complicates the situation. If we're

6 trying to truncate this trial, I'm afraid that these sorts of incidents --

7 and I'm not blaming anyone, but these sorts of incidents will cause us to

8 go into a wider scope than is necessary.

9 And lastly, I want to point out something that Mr. Kovacic did,

10 pointed out earlier with respect to the indictment. The indictment is not

11 quite clear. If you look at Mr. -- Mr. Scott did point out that it goes

12 to April, but then he says -- it's not quite clear. It seems like it is

13 an open-ended. You know, what date is the cut-off date? We need to have

14 some precision.

15 And so these are some thoughts. I apologise to the witness for

16 bringing this up in his presence. I know we've got to be out of here. I

17 tried to keep it in five minutes. Five points; if you could think about

18 it, I would most appreciate it, Mr. President, and thank you for the time.

19 Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Kovacic, in a

21 few seconds.

22 MR. KOVACIC: Literally five words. Since you asked us earlier,

23 we were -- at least, couple of counsels were trying to discuss who will

24 ask what on cross this witness during the last break. I don't see there

25 is too much understanding between counsels. Also, because of those

Page 1343

1 reasons. So we will talk more about it, but it easily could be that we

2 will not have our joint plan on dividing the witness on the sections. And

3 after all, the point is that the witness has testified during the direct

4 examination about the time period which is longer than two and half years

5 and about many specific incidents - I guess some 22, at least, if I was

6 not wrong in counting - and besides, this witness was also asked a lot on

7 -- let's say on the context and the events before the conflict between

8 army of BiH and HVO. So that is quite a big territory to go, Your Honour.

9 And I'm not sure we will be able to make agreement.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, if I may, I don't want to contradict

11 my learned colleague and friend Mr. Kovacic, but I can assure you that

12 we're going to do everything we can to make sure that we finish by 1.45

13 tomorrow, and I'm sure that we can do that provided Mr. Scott stays within

14 that 25, 30-minute ballpark figure that he gave us. I think it can be

15 achieved.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you in

17 advance.

18 The hearing will commence tomorrow at 9.00.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.08 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day of May,

21 2006, at 9.00 a.m.