060516ED

Page 2118

1 By and large, this is how this hearing is going to unfold today.

2 I remind you that you have read out the solemn declaration and that you

3 have sworn to tell the truth, which means there will be no false

4 testimony.

5 I think it's Mr. Mundis who is going to put the questions to you,

6 so I shall now give him the floor.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Perhaps if the usher could

8 assist us by just moving the ELMO, because it's blocking my line of sight

9 with the witness. I would be grateful for that.

10 Examination by Mr. Mundis:

11 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, can you tell the Trial Chamber a little bit about

12 your personal, your family life.

13 A. I live in a village and I work our land. I have three children,

14 and we know what happened to one of my children. We work. We are

15 farmers. We don't do anything else, nobody's employed anywhere else.

16 That's how it is.

17 Q. And what -- what village do you live in?

18 A. I live in a village called Pjesivac Greda, near Stolac.

19 Q. And, Mrs. Kaplan, how long have you lived in Pjesivac Greda, near

20 Stolac?

21 A. I've lived there for 35 years now. I came to that village when I

22 got married and have lived there since.

23 Q. Can you tell us, Mrs. Kaplan, where Pjesivac Greda is located.

24 A. Pjesivac Greda is between -- is located between Stolac and

25 Capljina.

Page 2119

1 Q. Is this location on or part of the Dubrava plateau?

2 A. Yes. Yes. That's precisely where it is.

3 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, can you tell us a little bit about life in Pjesivac

4 Greda in the 1980s and up to about 1990.

5 A. To describe, what should I describe? This is just an ordinary

6 village. You know what a village is like. That's how it is.

7 Q. Who lived in the village?

8 A. Bosniaks, Muslims, and Croats.

9 Q. And what were the relations like between the Muslims and Croats in

10 the village in the 1980s and up to about 1990?

11 A. Let me tell you openly: They were very good. We lived together,

12 worked together, did everything together.

13 Q. Can you tell us, ma'am, did Pjesivac Greda, was it -- did it

14 consist of various hamlets?

15 A. Yes, yes, quite a lot. There is the upper portion, and then there

16 is Pjesivac Kula, and our hamlet is called Pjesivac Greda.

17 Q. And these various hamlets, were they multi-ethnic or did only one

18 ethnicity live in each of the hamlets?

19 A. There was one Croatian hamlet and then one Muslim hamlet, and this

20 is how they were. There were some Serbs, but they were a minority, there

21 were not many of them.

22 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, can you tell us how the situation in Pjesivac Greda

23 changed in the early 1990s.

24 A. It changed. It changed for the worse. They went to one side, and

25 they were separate from us, and we were separate from them, and what was

Page 2120

1 to be done?

2 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, what exactly do you mean when you say, "They went to

3 one side and they were separate from us and we were separate from them"?

4 Can you elaborate on that?

5 A. Before the war, everything was great. We lived together, worked

6 together, did everything together. But later on, after the war broke out,

7 they just did their own business, and they were better informed about

8 things, and we knew nothing.

9 Q. And who is the "they" that you are referring to? What do you mean

10 by "they"?

11 A. Croats.

12 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, do you remember when the war first started in and

13 around Pjesivac Greda?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us what happened?

16 A. What happened, they started shooting on one side. They started

17 fighting and looting things from our homes, taking us to prisons and so

18 on.

19 Q. Let me ask you, Mrs. Kaplan, about your children. You told us

20 earlier you had three children. Can you tell us the gender and ages of

21 your children.

22 A. I have a son born in 1971. My other son was born in 1977. I also

23 have a daughter born in 1969, and then I had another daughter, and I came

24 here to testify about her and how she was killed. She was my fourth

25 child.

Page 2121

1 Q. Did there come a time, Mrs. Kaplan, when either of your sons

2 joined a military force?

3 A. Yes. My oldest son joined the HVO once the Serbs withdrew from

4 the plateau. This is when they joined, and they were together at the

5 front line.

6 Q. Do you know, Mrs. Kaplan, at the time your son, your older son,

7 joined the HVO, who the HVO was fighting against, if anyone?

8 A. Against the Serbs.

9 Q. When did the fighting between the HVO and the Serbs begin?

10 A. In 1972. Yes, in 1972.

11 Q. I'm not sure, ma'am. The year may be mischaracterised in the

12 transcript. Can you tell us what year the fighting between the HVO and

13 the Serbs began?

14 A. In 71st or in 77nd, and then in 1973 -- I'm sorry, 1983. I made a

15 mistake. It was in 1982.

16 Q. Ma'am, are you sure it wasn't in 1992?

17 A. Yes, yes. I apologise. I apologise.

18 Q. That's okay. Let me ask you, if you remember, approximately how

19 long did the fighting in and around your village between the Serbs and the

20 HVO, how long did that fighting last for?

21 A. No, not that long. They didn't fight for that long. Half a year.

22 I'm not sure it was a full year. They simply stood guard, they went to

23 the line, but there wasn't much fighting.

24 Q. And, ma'am, how long did your oldest son who was fighting with the

25 HVO against the Serbs, how long did he remain in the HVO?

Page 2122

1 A. He was there for about seven or eight months, and then he was

2 wounded and hospitalised in Split and didn't go to the front any longer.

3 Q. After the fighting between the HVO and the Serbs was over, did

4 peace return to the Dubrava plateau?

5 A. Yes, for about half a year or a year or thereabouts, and not after

6 that.

7 Q. What happened after that year -- half a year or year of peace?

8 A. They simply went together and worked until nowadays when they

9 started splitting again.

10 Q. And when did they start splitting again, as you've put it?

11 A. That was in '92nd or '93rd, when they started separating men from

12 women, children, and the elderly.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The witness may have said the month of July, but

14 the interpreters are not sure.

15 MR. MUNDIS:

16 Q. Do you know the approximate time of year when this separations

17 began -- these separations began that you've told us about?

18 A. That was in 1993, on the 7th of July. No, I'm sorry, on the 2nd

19 of July.

20 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, on the 2nd of July, 1993, approximately how many

21 people were living with you in your home?

22 A. To tell you the truth, there were 13 families, and living with me

23 were about 14 people in my own house, but there were 13 families in the

24 hamlet.

25 Q. Okay. Now, the 14 people that were living in your house, who were

Page 2123

1 these people?

2 A. Yes. They were two families, but we lived together. Two brothers

3 and their families, before the war. And they were the families, the two

4 families of those two brothers.

5 Q. Okay. And who were these two brothers?

6 A. Hamzo Kaplan and Salko Kaplan.

7 Q. And, Mrs. Kaplan, who is Hamzo Kaplan?

8 A. That's my husband.

9 Q. So it would be fair to say, then, that on the 2nd of July, 1993,

10 you -- you and your husband and your children, and your husband's brother

11 and his family were all living in your house?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Can you tell us, Mrs. Kaplan, what happened on the 2nd of July,

14 1993, in Pjesivac Greda.

15 A. I'll explain that to you. In the morning at around 7.00, early in

16 the morning, some soldiers came by. There were a lot of them, and they

17 started gathering up the men. And they said, "You're not going to stay

18 here long." There were some soldiers above the village and other soldiers

19 in the village, which meant that nobody could escape. Then they rounded

20 up the people that they had collected, and took them off to the camps by

21 truck.

22 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of follow-up questions. When you

23 say, Mrs. Kaplan --

24 A. Yes, go ahead.

25 Q. When you say, Mrs. Kaplan, some soldiers came by, do you know what

Page 2124

1 those soldiers were wearing?

2 A. The soldiers were wearing camouflage uniforms, with caps on their

3 heads and insignia. I can't remember what the insignia were like. We had

4 to flee. But I just know that they were wearing camouflage uniforms and

5 had caps.

6 Q. Do you know, ma'am, from what army these soldiers came?

7 A. Later on I learnt from our people that there were some of ours,

8 the Stolac municipality and Capljina municipality, and there were some

9 people from Croatia who joined them.

10 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, at this point in time, that is July 2nd, 1993 --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- how many of the men living in your house were soldiers?

13 A. Well, there was my son and my brother-in-law's son - he was in the

14 HVO too - and my husband was the Territorial Defence. He would go to do

15 this civilian duty, dig trenches, whatever they needed, that kind of

16 thing.

17 Q. Now, you told us a few moments ago, as reflected on page 10, lines

18 21 through 23, "they rounded up the people they collected and took them

19 off to the camps by truck." My first question, Mrs. Kaplan, is --

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. -- who -- who rounded -- who rounded up the people?

22 A. The army.

23 Q. And --

24 A. The HVO army.

25 Q. And, Mrs. Kaplan, who were the people that were rounded up? Who

Page 2125

1 was rounded up?

2 A. They were my relatives, the Kaplans. Whoever happened to be

3 there. The Bosniaks, and two or three people from the village. They

4 arrested them all, captured them all.

5 Q. When you say they captured them all, can you tell us, Mrs. Kaplan,

6 did they take men, women, children, just the men, just the women, just the

7 children? Who did they take when you say --

8 A. Just the men. From my village they took -- do you need the names

9 of the people they took?

10 Q. If you can remember any of the names of who they took on that day.

11 A. Do you want the name and surname or their parents' names as well?

12 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, whatever you can remember would be helpful to us this

13 morning.

14 A. Ismet Kaplan, Mujo's son. Samir Kaplan, Hasan's son. Camil

15 Kaplan, Omer's son. Ale Kaplan, Osman's son. Murat Kaplan, Salko's son.

16 And Hamzo Kaplan, my husband, he was taken away from the hill, from up on

17 the hill. And those were all the Kaplan family members who were taken

18 away in just one day.

19 Q. What happened to these people that were taken away on the 2nd of

20 July, 1993?

21 A. They were taken down there to the neighbouring area and then to

22 the camp at Dretelj.

23 Q. How long -- to the best of your recollection, how long did these

24 people remain at the camp at Dretelj?

25 A. Some stayed two months, others three months, and some others were

Page 2126

1 there for nine months. They were there the longest, until the last man

2 left.

3 Q. Can you tell us, Mrs. Kaplan, among the people that you mentioned,

4 I didn't see your brother-in-law Salko Kaplan. Was he taken away; and if

5 not, why not?

6 A. They didn't take him away that day, but they did later on. Not on

7 the 2nd of July. He wasn't taken on the 2nd of July. He was taken away

8 later on, on the 13th of July, and I'll tell you why that was.

9 Q. Well, let's move, then, Mrs. Kaplan, to the 13th of July. Can you

10 tell us what happened on that day?

11 A. It was terrible, but I'll do my best to tell you. On the 13th of

12 July, at around 2.00 in the afternoon, I was in the house, and Salko, my

13 brother-in-law, was there with his wife, my sister-in-law, and a small

14 child, five years old. We were downstairs on the ground floor, and I

15 heard something, and I said, "What's that that we can hear?" And they

16 said, "Go outside and have a look." And I saw a lot of soldiers outside,

17 a lot of people gathered there, women, children, and they were moving

18 towards our house. I just went inside, into our house, and said, "Oh,

19 there are lots of women and children and soldiers," and my brother-in-law

20 said never mind. Two minutes later, one of these came into the house and

21 said, "Get out." We obeyed and went outside, and he asked us whether

22 there was anybody on the floor above. We said, "Go and check, we don't

23 know." We didn't actually know. And when my daughter heard a lot of

24 noise, that he was shouting at us, she went out onto the staircase and

25 moved towards us, and my sister-in-law said, "Come on, get your clothes on

Page 2127

1 and we're going to leave." And she said, "Where are we going?" Sanida

2 said. And she said, "You've taken all our menfolk, where are you going to

3 take us?" So that was the last time she spoke because there was a burst

4 of gunfire and they shot her. And that's the truth of it.

5 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, how old was Sanida on this day, the 13th of July,

6 1993?

7 A. She was almost 18. Ten days to go before her 18th birthday. Her

8 birthday was on the 24th of July, and she would have been 18. Thirteen

9 days to her 18th birthday. You can check that out for yourselves.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the registrar,

11 I would ask that the photograph marked 9067 be displayed for the witness.

12 It's -- this is in e-court.

13 Q. Do you see that photograph, Mrs. Kaplan, on the screen in front of

14 you?

15 A. Yes, I can see that. That's my daughter. I recognise her, yes.

16 It's a terrible wound for me, but I have to look.

17 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, can you tell us what happened to you after this

18 incident where your daughter Sanida was killed?

19 A. I was standing -- well, I said to the soldier to let me stay there

20 and look at my daughter, and he said, "No, you can't." And then we went

21 out to the yard, to the entrance, and I just saw her lying there, dead, in

22 a pool of blood. And then I joined the other people, the people -- the

23 Bosniaks who were making us go, and we left.

24 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, you just told us that the Bosniaks were making you

25 go. Which Bosniaks were these?

Page 2128

1 A. No, no. We went with the Bosniaks, but the army, the soldiers,

2 made us go. They made the Bosniaks go because the Bosniaks were Muslims,

3 and they made us go out of the village. You can check that.

4 Q. And again, Mrs. Kaplan, if you know, when you say the army, the

5 soldiers, what army or soldiers were these?

6 A. From the HVO. The HVO.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I

8 would ask that three photographs be shown to the witness. These are not

9 in e-court. We do have hard copies of these photos. These are 9554,

10 9555, and 9556. Let's start with 9556, please, the bottom one.

11 Q. Now, Mrs. Kaplan, you should see on the screen in front of you or

12 on the machine to your right a photograph. Do you see that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what you see in this

15 photograph 9556.

16 A. I see a house. It's our house. And I can see everything around

17 it. Can I point with my hand to show you?

18 Q. If you -- if you look onto the right where you'll see the actual

19 photograph, you can point on the photograph that's on the machine next to

20 you.

21 A. This is the house, and this here --

22 Q. Could I just --

23 A. And this is the yard. That's the gate, and that's where we went

24 in. That's the entrance. And she was coming down from this part of the

25 house, down here, and reached this door here, and that's where they killed

Page 2129

1 her. She lay dead between the window and the door at this spot. That's

2 where she remained. That's how it was.

3 You can see everything here. I can explain it to you. I know

4 very well that that's my house.

5 Q. Let me just -- Mrs. Kaplan, just for the record, if you could

6 please take that red marker, the thin red marker that you were pointing

7 with, can you please place an X on the side of your house. Just draw an

8 X, an X, on the house. Right on the picture. You can put it right on the

9 picture, on the house.

10 A. On the picture.

11 Q. Yes, please.

12 A. Can you zoom in, please, so the picture's bigger. A small X or a

13 large X?

14 Q. I think that's fine. We can make out the X. Now, Mrs. Kaplan,

15 you also -- you also pointed to a few other things in the photograph. Can

16 you do that again for us, and stop at each point when you point to

17 something.

18 A. This is the house. This is the yard. It's inside, it's the

19 fence. But this is the ground floor. This is the first floor. You can

20 see that. These are the steps, and I have a small house that way. But

21 these are the steps. This is the gate leading into the yard. These are

22 the steps that my daughter came down. She didn't get further than this

23 spot here, and that's where she was shot.

24 I'll show you everything in order.

25 Q. Well, Mrs. Kaplan, just again, we have to make some markings on

Page 2130

1 the photograph. Can you circle the stairs that you told us Sanida came

2 down. Can you circle the staircase.

3 A. There you are.

4 Q. Maybe -- maybe we need to take the thicker marker. It's a bit

5 difficult to see. Ah, okay.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. Okay. We do have -- Mrs. Kaplan, we have a couple of other

8 photographs I'd like to show you, but could you please put your initials

9 and today's date on the side of that picture, perhaps on the white area.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. And perhaps today's date, 16 May, 2006.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Kaplan.

14 MR. MUNDIS: If we could now have 9555 shown to the witness,

15 please.

16 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, do you recognise the photograph that's been marked

17 P 955?

18 A. Yes, I know it all.

19 Q. What do you see in this photograph?

20 A. I can see the stairs, I can see the fence, railings, the window,

21 the door, the little table. That's what it looks like now. The flowers.

22 Q. Now, again, Mrs. Kaplan, could you take the thick marker and

23 circle the stairs.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Do you see the location on this photograph where you were standing

Page 2131

1 at the time your daughter Sanida was killed?

2 A. Here. Do you wanted me to place a mark there of some kind?

3 Q. Yes, please, if you could make an X.

4 A. I was standing here, and the people who were with me - that is to

5 say my brother-in-law. She came down this way, and she reached the door

6 here.

7 Q. Okay. And when you say, "She came down this way, and she reached

8 the door here," who are you referring to?

9 A. My daughter Sanida, the one who was killed.

10 Q. And, Mrs. Kaplan, where was Sanida at the time she was killed?

11 A. She was standing up here, up on the first floor.

12 Q. And then where did she go?

13 A. She came down these stairs, and my sister-in-law said, "Sanida,

14 let's go." And she said, "Where are we going?" I said all this a moment

15 ago. I'm am repeating what I said. She said, "Where are we going?" And

16 my sister-in-law said, "We're going," and she said, "Well, where they took

17 the menfolk." And then he killed her and she dropped down dead here, just

18 in front of this door.

19 Q. Could you please put the initials SK at the location on the

20 photograph where your daughter's body fell when she was shot.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. And again, Mrs. Kaplan, if you could please put your initials and

23 today's date in the white area along the side of the photograph.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. And again today's date, please; 16 May, 2006.

Page 2132

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Now, before that photo's removed, I have one other question.

3 Mrs. Kaplan, do you know who shot your daughter Sanida?

4 A. No, I didn't know at the time, but I learnt who he was later, a

5 month or two later. They told me. The women told me, because he was

6 there. He was the commander there in their hamlet, and they knew him and

7 they told me that it was him. Dragan --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last name. I --

9 MR. MUNDIS:

10 Q. Could you repeat the person's name, please.

11 A. Dragan Unojza [phoen] was the man's name.

12 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, for the record can you please spell the family name

13 of this person, if you know.

14 A. B-o-n-o-j-z-a [as interpreted], Bunoza. That's the surname.

15 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kaplan. At the time Dragan Bunoza shot your

16 daughter Sanida, where was he standing?

17 A. Do you want me to mark it here? He was here and she was there.

18 Q. Could you please put his initials, DB, at the location on the

19 photograph where Dragan Bunoza was standing when he shot your daughter.

20 A. Here. Right next to this letter.

21 Q. Approximately how far was Dragan Bunoza when he shot and killed

22 your daughter Sanida?

23 A. One metre away. One metre 10, 1 metre 20. Not further than that.

24 We were all standing round about, close to each other.

25 Q. And I take it, Mrs. Kaplan, in -- earlier when you told the

Page 2133

1 Presiding Judge that you'd testified in a case in Mostar, this was about

2 the killing of your daughter Sanida; is that right?

3 A. Yes, that's right. That's right.

4 Q. Were you present in the courtroom when the verdict was announced

5 in the case against Dragan Bunoza?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. When was this trial, Mrs. Kaplan, the trial of Dragan Bunoza?

8 A. Well, I can't remember. I can't remember the date.

9 Q. Can you recall --

10 A. I just can't, no.

11 Q. Do you recall the approximate time period? Was it a year ago,

12 five years ago, 10 years ago?

13 A. Well, two years ago. It might have been two years ago.

14 Q. And what was the verdict in the court in Mostar in the case

15 against Dragan Bunoza?

16 A. They accused him of being a killer, and he was sentenced to nine

17 years' imprisonment.

18 MR. MUNDIS: The photograph can now be retrieved from the witness.

19 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, I'd like to ask you --

20 MR. MUNDIS: And if we could perhaps move the ELMO again as well.

21 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, if I could now ask you about what happened to you

22 immediately after your daughter was killed. Can you please tell us what

23 happened immediately after your daughter was shot.

24 A. I can tell you this: I stood by my daughter, but then I left,

25 because he kept saying, "Get out." And I left, as I said. I had to turn

Page 2134

1 away from her and join the other people, and I joined the column of

2 people. And as they came across civilians, they would round them up and

3 make them march in front of them. Our people, the civilians were.

4 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, who was it that said, "Get out"?

5 A. That killer. He said I should move away from my Sanida. That's

6 what the killer said, "Go," and that I shouldn't keep turning round and

7 trying to go back.

8 Q. Now, on this day, 13 July, 1993, was Dragan Bunoza alone?

9 A. No. There were lots of soldiers. But he came into our house, and

10 he killed her. There were lots of soldiers going up and down the village,

11 making people go in front of them. They would go from house to house and

12 say, "Get out." But he came up to the gate, went into the yard and killed

13 her, the man that killed her.

14 Q. On this day, Mrs. Kaplan, was there any fighting in the village?

15 A. No, there was no fighting that day there, but they said that there

16 was fighting in Satorova Gomila, that that's where the fighting was. And

17 they made us go that way, to Satorova Gomila, to be a human shield.

18 Q. Now, Mrs. Kaplan, you told us just a few moments ago, page 21,

19 line 6, "As they came across civilians, they would round them up ..." Who

20 were these civilians?

21 A. Bosniaks.

22 Q. And what were the gender and ages of these civilians?

23 A. From two months old to 60 or 65 years old, maybe even older.

24 Women, children.

25 Q. And where were these people taken? Where were you taken?

Page 2135

1 A. We all went together, all together.

2 Q. And where did you go?

3 A. We went -- they took us to the main road, and then they put us in

4 trucks and transferred us to Jasoc.

5 Q. And how far is it from your village to Jasoc?

6 A. About seven kilometres.

7 Q. And what did you do in Jasoc?

8 A. Once we got there, they told us, "You won't go up there to

9 Satorova Gomila." This is what I understood from other people, because I

10 wasn't quite myself. This is what I learned later. They said that we

11 should go to school building and that Veselko Raguz had ordered that.

12 Q. And where did you go?

13 A. We went to the school building, and this is where they put us in.

14 Q. And in what town or village was this school located?

15 A. Aladinici.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I

17 would ask that a photograph be shown to the witness -- two photographs;

18 9557 and 9558.

19 Q. Ms. Kaplan, you're now looking at what's been marked P 9557. Do

20 you recognise that, what's depicted in that photo?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Can you tell us what that's a photo of?

23 A. This is the school, and this in front is something that remained.

24 But this is the school building. This is where we were incarcerated, in

25 this school.

Page 2136

1 Q. Again, Mrs. Kaplan, if you could take that thick red marker,

2 please, and make an X on the school building.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. And again, ma'am, if you could please initial and date that

5 photograph.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. MUNDIS: And if the witness can now be shown P 09558.

9 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, do you recognise what's depicted on the photograph

10 P 09558?

11 A. Yes, I do. That's the school, too, where we were incarcerated.

12 Q. Can you please place an X on the building that you recognise as

13 the school where you were incarcerated.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kaplan. And again, if you could please initial

16 and date that photograph.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Kaplan. Now, do you know if that school

19 had any other names or went by any other names?

20 A. The school was called Branko Sotra. That's what they called it.

21 That's what I know.

22 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, can you tell us how long you were incarcerated in

23 that school?

24 A. For about ten days.

25 Q. And how many people were in that school?

Page 2137

1 A. About 3.000 of us. They were civilians, the elderly, children.

2 All civilians. All civilians.

3 Q. Can you describe what the conditions were like in this school

4 during the 10-day period that you were incarcerated there.

5 A. Terrible. There was nothing there. No paper. It was dirty. It

6 was horrible. It was horrible. People all over corridors, sleeping on

7 cement. We had to sleep wherever we could find a spot, on cement.

8 Terrible conditions.

9 Q. What were the -- you told us they were the elderly and children.

10 Can you give us an approximate range of the ages of the people that were

11 in that school?

12 A. From 65 to 80 years old. Those were the elderly. And then there

13 were young people, too, children.

14 Q. How young were the children that you saw there?

15 A. From one month and on. There were children who were one month

16 old.

17 Q. Can you describe for us, Mrs. Kaplan, how many rooms were in the

18 school?

19 A. I can't remember. Ten, 12 rooms in all. From 10 to 12. I

20 couldn't go out really, I'm sorry, but I heard that's how many there were.

21 Ten to 12.

22 Q. Can you describe for us the sanitary conditions in the school.

23 A. Bad. Really bad. We couldn't go out. And in one room we had to

24 relieve ourselves. We were unable to go out. There was nothing else to

25 do. We had to do it in the rooms.

Page 2138

1 Q. Can you describe for us what type of food or water was available

2 for drinking?

3 A. It was bad. We had no water at all. It was really bad. The

4 water from the well was polluted, but we had to drink it nevertheless.

5 And the food was really bad. It wasn't until the fifth day that they

6 brought us some food, some bread and some cans. One car brought food for

7 3.000 people.

8 Q. What kind of food did they bring? You said bread and some cans.

9 A. Fish cans, and bread; nothing else.

10 Q. How frequently did they bring food?

11 A. Once a day while we were there, but we didn't receive anything for

12 four days, and then only on the fifth day we received something. But some

13 people didn't get anything to eat because they ran out of food by the time

14 they got to them.

15 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, who was bringing this food?

16 A. The Croats. They brought it in, the food. It was their truck.

17 All of this was theirs. It all came from their bakery.

18 Q. What -- Mrs. Kaplan, what, if anything, was preventing you and the

19 other people at this school from simply leaving?

20 A. Well, there were soldiers around the school. They were placed

21 there, the guards, and we couldn't go out.

22 Q. Again, Mrs. Kaplan, for the record, who were these soldiers?

23 A. The HVO.

24 Q. Can you tell us about the reason why you eventually left this

25 school.

Page 2139

1 A. One morning, early, they woke us up. Prior to that, the

2 humanitarian people came in, UNHCR, so they got us up and they took us to

3 two areas, Djulica and another place. They had to separate us because we

4 couldn't all fit in one mahala.

5 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, I neglected to ask you something else about the time

6 you were in the school. Were you kept in the same room or area of that

7 school for the 10-day period you were there?

8 A. Yes. Yes, yes, I was.

9 Q. Now, you've told us, ma'am, that there were about 3.000 people in

10 this school. Where were these people from, do you know?

11 A. Yes. This was Stolac municipality and the villages. The people

12 were all from there, rounded up there. I don't know how many villages

13 there are there, but all of them were from there.

14 Q. Now, you told us that the humanitarian people came in, UNHCR.

15 Where did they take you? You personally, where did you go?

16 A. No. They got us away. They took us away so that they wouldn't

17 see us there. Many trucks came, and they removed us away because they had

18 learned that they would be passing next to the school and they didn't want

19 them to see us there, imprisoned.

20 Q. Okay. So who took you away in the trucks?

21 A. The HVO. They brought in the trucks, and we were transported in

22 their trucks.

23 Q. And how do you know that the humanitarian people would be passing

24 next to the school?

25 A. Once we came home, and once we were there, we saw the UNHCR pass

Page 2140

1 on the road in front of our houses. It was about a kilometre away, but we

2 could still see them, travelling on the road. And this is why they had

3 gotten us away. That was what we gathered, all of us together.

4 Q. And now again, where were you personally taken by the HVO in these

5 trucks? Where did you -- where did they take you to?

6 A. They took us back to our houses. To my house, where I used to

7 live.

8 Q. And how many other people were taken back to your house?

9 A. In our house there were about 250 people. And there are 13

10 households there. So they put people in those houses. Of course, we

11 couldn't all fit in one house, so they distributed them among these 13

12 households, 13 houses. And people couldn't all fit there, so some were

13 taken to Djulic, that village or, rather, that hamlet, and lot of people

14 were staying there. That's what I told you.

15 Q. Just so we're clear, then, there were 250 people spread among the

16 13 houses in your hamlet.

17 A. No, no, no. That's how many there were in my house alone. And in

18 the hamlet there were about 1.000 or more of us. I didn't go out, so I

19 can't tell you exactly how many people there were there, but I know that

20 in our house alone there were 250 people. I didn't get out, so I couldn't

21 tell you whether in other houses there were 50 people or more, but

22 definitely there were more than 1.000 altogether in the hamlet.

23 Q. How were you able to accommodate this many people in your house?

24 A. We had an older house and a newer house, and then one house that

25 hadn't been completed. So people were everywhere; in the yard, in these

Page 2141

1 houses. One couldn't really step for fear of -- step anywhere for fear on

2 trampling on people.

3 Q. Where were these people sleeping?

4 A. Inside, outside, everywhere. Wherever they found a spot. In the

5 yard, in corridors, in rooms. Everywhere. Because when you are a

6 refugee, you have to find accommodation. They slept in the garage;

7 everywhere.

8 Q. And again, Mrs. Kaplan, what were the gender and ages of the

9 people who were -- who were accommodated in your house?

10 A. I can't remember. There were two or three elderly persons in our

11 house, and then others were in other houses. We had three or four people

12 who were between 70 and 80 years old. I remember that.

13 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, how did you feed all of these people?

14 A. Well, we had some food in our house, and then the HVO would come,

15 and they would go to other villages to pick what was left there and they

16 would bring it to people so they could cook and prepare it. They would

17 take women and children to a hamlet to get flour, oil, whatever was there.

18 And then people would also bring in their food from their mahalas. And

19 then, you know, they would come in trucks and say, "Well, who is going to

20 come with us to go get some food?" So it was mostly the children, the

21 young people, who went with the HVO to get food. You know, they would

22 say, "Come on, you children -" 13- and 14-year-olds - "you're stronger

23 than women, so come with us to get some food."

24 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, these people that were accommodated in your house,

25 were they free to leave?

Page 2142

1 A. No. No. The HVO would come to get them. They had orders.

2 Nobody could leave. We had guards all around us. We were only allowed to

3 leave if they asked you to go in their truck.

4 Q. Now, do you recall, Mrs. Kaplan, the approximate date that you

5 returned to your house?

6 A. You mean after the war?

7 Q. No. When you were taken from the school back to your house.

8 A. When we were all crammed in. Well, the 22nd, 23rd of July, around

9 those dates, because we stayed there for some ten days. Around that time.

10 I'm not sure. 22nd, 23rd.

11 Q. And again, the year, Mrs. Kaplan?

12 A. 1993.

13 Q. Now, how long -- approximately how long did all of these people

14 remain crammed in, as you put it, crammed in your house?

15 A. Well, we came, let's say, on the 22nd or 23rd, and we left on the

16 2nd of August, 1993.

17 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances under which you left on the 2nd

18 of August, 1993? What happened on that day?

19 A. Early in the morning, people - children, women - were getting up,

20 and we saw the buses on the road - buses, trucks. And then they said

21 you're going to Djulici and we're going to put you on trucks there. And

22 that's what it was; they got everybody up, marching in columns, going

23 there. They searched us there and then they took us to a house in twos

24 and threes, and they searched all of us. They would take three people in

25 and then search us, and then later on you would join the column, and we

Page 2143

1 were put on buses and went to the Buna. That's how it was.

2 Q. At this point in time, Mrs. Kaplan, the 2nd of August, 1993, where

3 was the rest of your family?

4 A. In camps. My husband was in a camp. I also had a minor son, and

5 he was taken the day before we were taken, to Buna. They took him on the

6 1st and us on the 2nd. They took us to Buna. As I said to you, he was my

7 minor son. And then I had another son, and all of them were in prison,

8 all of them.

9 Q. Now, you told us, ma'am, that on the 2nd of August you were taken

10 to Buna. How many people were taken with you to Buna on that day?

11 A. Only the elderly. Whoever couldn't go to Dretelj. Just the

12 elderly over 70 years old, and whoever was below 70 was taken to prison

13 from that place once we were expelled.

14 Q. How many people, approximately, were with you in Buna on or about

15 the 2nd of August, 1993?

16 A. Well, we couldn't all go together. I'm not sure. In our mahala,

17 there were maybe up to 30, and in the other place, in other mahala, I

18 don't know. I can't remember. And I don't know whether they went before

19 or after. I can't remember that.

20 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, again for our record, can you tell the Trial Chamber

21 what a mahala is.

22 A. Mahala is a village. We refer to a village as mahala, or to a

23 hamlet we refer to mahala, where a group of people lives. Sometimes we

24 say mahala, sometimes we say hamlet, but that means the same thing. Did

25 you understand me?

Page 2144

1 Q. Yes. Thank you for that clarification. Now, where did you go

2 from Buna?

3 A. We went to Blagaj. We walked for five or six kilometres, and then

4 our army met us there, the army, and they loaded us on trucks and they

5 took us to Blagaj. There was just one vehicle, and it took them all the

6 way up to late hours of that evening to transport all of us.

7 Q. Can you tell us what the conditions were like as you walked this

8 five or six kilometres from Buna to Blagaj?

9 A. They fired but over our heads. They didn't fire at us. They

10 fired, but we didn't get killed.

11 Q. What personal property did you take with you when you left your

12 home on that day as you were being transported to Buna?

13 A. We took a blanket and just maybe a few things, but mostly they

14 made us throw things away. We had perhaps some plastic bags and another

15 bag, and we could take some clothes with us, and the rest was thrown away.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I am just about

17 finished with the direct examination, but I would ask if we take the

18 recess now. I'll review my notes, but it should only be a question of 10

19 to 15 minutes at the max, and perhaps much less than that.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. It is just about 10.30.

21 We will have a 20-minute break and we will reconvene at 10 minutes to

22 eleven.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

Page 2145

1 Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, I just have a few questions left for you. You told

4 us earlier today that your husband, Hamza Kaplan, was taken to a camp.

5 Can you tell us where he was taken to and how long he was there?

6 A. He was taken to Dretelj, and he stayed there for about two months,

7 or one month -- well, let's say two months.

8 Q. Did your husband describe for you how he was treated in Dretelj?

9 A. Well, they didn't beat him much, just twice, about twice. But he

10 was in Dretelj. They did beat him a bit, but not too much.

11 Q. Can you describe his physical appearance when you first saw him

12 after his release from Dretelj?

13 A. Well, he looked very poorly when he was released from Dretelj. We

14 couldn't recognise him. I as his wife couldn't recognise him when he came

15 back home.

16 Q. Do you know during the time he was in Dretelj if anyone went to

17 visit him or take him anything?

18 A. Yes. One day my sister-in-law tried. Five or six women from the

19 mahala, from our mahala, from our hamlet went, but I think they only got

20 as far as the gate, and they didn't let them -- took the food away from

21 them, the food that they were bringing.

22 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, about what your son Samir Kaplan? What prison was he

23 taken to and for how long?

24 A. He was taken to Dretelj, and he stayed there a long time; nine

25 months. He was one of the last to leave. Until the very last person left

Page 2146

1 the camp. He was at Dretelj, then Heliodrom, but he survived. That's how

2 it was.

3 Q. And your son Ibrahim Kaplan, where was he detained?

4 A. He was detained for one day and one night, and then he was taken

5 to Dretelj. He was a minor, underage, and then he was released when his

6 father was released. They were quite -- he was a minor.

7 Q. How old was he at the time he was taken away and detained?

8 A. Fifteen years.

9 Q. And you told us he was detained for one day and one night, and

10 then he was taken to Dretelj. Where was he detained for one day and one

11 night?

12 A. Yes, that's right. In Stolac. It's called the police station,

13 Kostana. And then he was taken to several places, but he just spent the

14 night in Stolac at the police station, and then they took him to Kostana,

15 and from Kostana there were other prisoners, too, and they were all taken

16 to Dretelj.

17 Q. And, ma'am, what is Kostana?

18 A. It's a hospital for bone -- for fractures, and we called it the

19 bone hospital, Kostana. For fractures. Orthopaedic hospital.

20 Q. And in what town is Kostana hospital located?

21 A. In Stolac. In Stolac proper.

22 Q. Now, ma'am, at the time your husband Hamza Kaplan and your son

23 Ibrahim Kaplan were released, where did they go?

24 A. They went to the hills above Jablanica. They were released there,

25 then they went to Jablanica and on foot to Blagaj, where we were put up.

Page 2147

1 Q. Now, how far is it from Jablanica to Blagaj?

2 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly. Quite a long way away. I can't

3 really say how many kilometres, but quite far. I can't really give you an

4 estimate. Perhaps you know this better than I.

5 Q. Do you -- do you recall, Mrs. Kaplan, how long it took your

6 husband Hamza Kaplan and your son Ibrahim Kaplan to walk from Jablanica to

7 Blagaj?

8 A. Four days and four nights. They walked. They went on foot. They

9 didn't dare walk during the day, so they walked at night.

10 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, can you tell us about your brother-in-law Salko

11 Kaplan. Where was he taken to?

12 A. Yes, I'll explain you -- I'll explain that to you. On the 1st of

13 August he was taken out of our house to Stolac. The police or the

14 soldiers took him away. And he was there, Mirko was there -- Mirko Raguz,

15 and Mirko Pazin [phoen]. They came by and asked us where he was. And we

16 said that some soldiers had come by and taken him off. And he told us --

17 they told us they would go and get him. But they sent him back the same

18 day. He spent the night there. And then when we were expelled, he was

19 taken to prison, to Stolac, and then further on to Dretelj. So that's

20 quite clear how it was.

21 Q. And what happened to your brother-in-law Salko Kaplan while he was

22 detained?

23 A. In Stolac, my Ibrahim, he was with him at the Kostana hospital.

24 They beat him up there. And then he went to Dretelj. He lived for 10

25 days, but then he succumbed to his wounds and died.

Page 2148

1 Q. And when you say, "he lived for 10 days and then he succumbed,"

2 who are you referring to? Who is the "he"?

3 A. That's right, yes. How do you mean? That's the Salko, the Salko

4 they killed. And then he succumbed to the injuries. Well, those soldiers

5 beat him in Stolac. I don't know exactly who.

6 Q. Do you know, Mrs. Kaplan, what happened to the body of Salko

7 Kaplan?

8 A. When he died, they buried him at Muminovaca.

9 Q. My final series of questions, ma'am, concerns your daughter

10 Sanida. Were you present at her funeral? Were you present at her

11 funeral?

12 A. No. No. No. How could I when I was held prisoner in the

13 schoolhouse? The only people who attended was my son, he was at home at

14 the time, and there were six or eight civilians who were not captured in

15 that first round. And when they learnt that she had been killed, they

16 came out and said, "We'll bury her." And at that point the army turned

17 up, the soldiers turned up. They surrendered, and they were taken to

18 Harem, and they buried her, my son and seven other people with him.

19 Q. And how is it that your son and these others had not been captured

20 during that first round, as you put it?

21 A. They didn't go to any shelter, no. They just hid. And then they

22 buried her.

23 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, were you ever issued or did you ever request a death

24 certificate with respect to your daughter Sanida?

25 A. Yes. When I went to Blagaj. I got a certificate saying she was

Page 2149

1 dead and that she is no longer living. We had to give a statement.

2 Q. And, ma'am, when you were interviewed by the Tribunal, you

3 provided a copy of that death certificate to the investigator; isn't that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the registry,

7 we'd like to show the witness P 08789, which is in e-court.

8 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, can you see a document in front of you on the screen?

9 A. This one here, you mean, or this one over here? Yes, I can see it

10 says Kaplan, Sanida, born on the 24th of July, 1950, in Stolac

11 municipality, Stolac. Father's name Kaplan Hamza and mother's name Kaplan

12 Fatima, killed on the 13th of July, 1993, in Pjesivac, buried at Pjesivac.

13 Q. And is this the death certificate that you were issued concerning

14 the death of your daughter Sanida Kaplan?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. And my final question for you, Mrs. Kaplan: With respect to the

17 court proceedings -- with respect to the court proceedings against Dragan

18 Bunoza, was an exhumation carried out of your daughter's remains?

19 A. Yes. They ordered that to be done, and it was done so that they

20 could establish what happened and how it happened. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. And do you recall what their conclusions were, based on the

22 autopsy that was done?

23 A. Of the exhumation, you mean?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. As I've already explained, that's how it was. Everything was

Page 2152

1 questions.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

3 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, good morning to you.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. My name is Bozidar Kovacic, I am Defence counsel for the accused

6 General Slobodan Praljak.

7 A. Thank you.

8 Q. I'm very sorry to have to ask you these questions.

9 A. Go ahead, ask me. If I can answer, I will; if I can't, I won't.

10 Q. Thank you. First of all, I should like the usher's assistance to

11 place Prosecution Exhibit R65 ter number 090550 -- 09550.

12 In the meantime, I'm going to ask you a question. Mrs. Kaplan,

13 you told us today about the tragic situation when your daughter was killed

14 and you told us that you know that afterwards there were court proceedings

15 that took place and that this man Bunoza was convicted; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. I'm just waiting for the transcript, for the record.

18 You also said that you were a witness during that court trial.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mrs. Kaplan, I'm going to show you the verdict, the judgement, the

21 first page of the Mostar judgement, but before that let me ask you this:

22 Do you remember the president of the Trial Chamber in those court

23 proceedings, who was that?

24 A. I don't know. He didn't introduce himself, but I know that I went

25 to court, but I don't know. Why should I say that I do when I don't.

Page 2153

1 Q. All right. Well, take a look at the judgement and then we'll see

2 the name and you'll just help me out and say whether you think, judging on

3 the basis of his name, that he was a Muslim or Croat.

4 A. We were all together there, Muslims and Croats, during the trial,

5 but I really don't know who the people were individually.

6 Q. All right. Fine. We'll get to that. In the meantime, until we

7 see the document, on the 13th of July, 1993, when they collected you up

8 and when, unfortunately, your daughter was killed, you said that there

9 were a lot of soldiers there.

10 A. Yes, there were.

11 Q. Were there other cases when people were shot?

12 A. Not then, no.

13 Q. So that was the only case?

14 A. Yes. On that day. What happened later, I can't talk about that,

15 but not on that day.

16 Q. All right. Thank you. Unfortunately, we don't seem to have the

17 judgement on our screens yet.

18 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, perhaps we should put it on the ELMO

19 because obviously there is some problem. We would like the usher to

20 assist.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Kaplan, I'm going to ask you for your

22 assistance here. That's the judgement when Bunoza was tried, when you

23 were a witness. First of all, it says, "In the name of the federation of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina," then we have an introductory paragraph in which it

25 says the cantonal court in Mostar, with a Trial Chamber composed of Judge

Page 2154

1 Kebo Hamo. Now, I would like to ask you: Kebo Hamo, is that a Muslim

2 name?

3 A. Yes, it's a Muslim name, yes, that's it, a Muslim name.

4 Q. He was the presiding judge, then we have Pavlovic Slavko and

5 Hasanbegovic Vesna as members of the Trial Chamber.

6 A. One was a Croat and the second name was a Muslim name.

7 Q. So that's what you said. You said it was a mixed Trial Chamber.

8 A. Yes, that's right. They were all together.

9 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask the usher to pick up the document. We

10 don't need it any more. At the end, I would like to tender this document

11 into evidence.

12 Mrs. Kaplan, did you perhaps during that trial and the discussions

13 about this man Bunoza, did you perhaps happen to hear a piece of

14 information to this effect: That another man called Bunoza, who allegedly

15 is Dragan Bonojza's brother -- is that it or is this the Bunoza?

16 A. No, that's the man. I didn't hear anything else.

17 Q. Did you hear that another Bunoza, another man Bunoza was tried for

18 the killing of three HVO soldiers?

19 A. No. I can't tell you about something I didn't know about or

20 didn't hear about, I really don't know?

21 Q. Thank you, thank you, I'm just asking you. I just thought perhaps

22 you had.

23 A. No.

24 Q. And just one point: Mrs. Kaplan, in view of the village you lived

25 in in the course of 1992, that is to say before the conflict between the

Page 2155

1 Muslims and Croats, most of the population from that area were Serbs or,

2 rather, the Yugoslav People's Army were Serbs and they expelled the

3 people.

4 A. No. Only when the HVO came, they expelled us. The Serbs did not.

5 Q. In 1992?

6 A. No. The Serbs didn't do anything to us, they didn't touch us, the

7 Serbs, no.

8 Q. So in 1992 --

9 A. We were down there.

10 Q. For the record, we have to make pauses between question and

11 answer, but if I understood you correctly, in the course of 1992 while the

12 Serbs and the JNA were on the plateau, they did not expel you.

13 A. No, they did not, no.

14 Q. All right, fine.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Kovacic, would you slow

16 down, please for the interpretation.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Previous translation continues] ... trying to

18 correct this error.

19 Q. [Interpretation] But since you are from that area, do you know

20 people from the neighbouring hamlets, the villages in the vicinity of

21 Stolac, were they expelled by the JNA in 1992, from that area?

22 A. Yes, yes. Those towards that area were expelled by Serbs, and the

23 ones near Stolac and Dubrava were expelled by Croats, but the Serbs

24 expelled the people towards Ljubinje.

25 Q. In 1992?

Page 2156

1 A. Yes. Those who were up there were Bosniaks, and then later on we

2 were expelled.

3 Q. In 1992, when the Serbs expelled Bosniaks, do you know where those

4 Bosniaks went?

5 A. Some went to Montenegro. Some went to the Dubrava plateau if they

6 had some relatives there, and some went to Montenegro and elsewhere,

7 towards that area. Some did, and some didn't.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please. Microphone for

9 counsel, please.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you know in 1992, in the summer, when the HVO regained control

12 over that area, when they had expelled Serbs, the people who had left the

13 villages, did they come back to their villages?

14 A. No, they didn't.

15 Q. They didn't?

16 A. No, they didn't.

17 Q. Some of them who were in Mostar, did they go back to their homes?

18 A. No, no, they didn't. They went up in the hills, and they didn't

19 dare come back.

20 Q. All right. Thank you. Thank you, madam. I don't have any

21 further questions.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document be

23 tendered into evidence, please, as Defence Exhibit under number 3D 00149.

24 [In English] The record on the transcript is correct.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will address