1 Wednesday, 31 May 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is case number IT-04-74-T,
8 the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning. I'd like to
10 welcome all those present. I am sorry for this 10-minute lateness this
11 morning. We had some technical problems. Luckily, the problem was solved
12 in time.
13 Mr. Registrar, it would be a good idea if somebody from the
14 Registry was here half an hour before the sitting begins to see that
15 everything is in order, to see if the clock's working, that the lights are
16 all switched on, and everything else is ready for the start of work in the
17 best possible conditions.
18 I hope that our witness has arrived, is here. I'm going to ask
19 the usher to bring him in very quickly.
20 Yes, Mr. Coric.
21 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
22 I'd like to remind you once again of the problem of my Defence team,
23 whether my request reached the Trial Chamber and --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused repeat what he said.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as your request was
1 concerned for the time, yes, we have taken that on board, and it is up to
2 your Defence counsel of one of the two proposals. Now, in that respect, I
3 don't have any other information, but I would like -- I'm going to ask to
4 be informed.
5 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my information
6 comes directly from the Registrar. They expect a response from you, and
7 that's what they've been telling me for the past 10 days. They've been
8 telling me that, and they've been telling me the counsel that. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we're going to take the
10 matter up with the Registrar, but it does come under the competencies of
11 the Registrar, under Articles 44 and 45, to see about the two individuals
12 that you have proposed and then see if they conform with the conditions.
13 So that is a job that the Registrar does, not I myself. I can't appoint a
14 counsel for you and say, yes, such-and-such a person is fine. But don't
15 worry, I'll inform myself of the matter, and we will inform you in due
16 course very quickly.
17 Now, Madam Usher, would you have the witness brought in, please.
18 Yes, Mr. Murphy.
19 MR. MURPHY: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with respect to the
20 Bruno Stojic Defence, we still have technical problems with the LiveNote.
21 We can continue, but perhaps the registrar could help us during the break.
22 Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 WITNESS: SEID SMAJKIC [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You may be seated.
3 We're glad to see you back, sir. As you know, you've come to continue
4 your testimony and the cross-examination. Of course if everything goes
5 well, as I said yesterday, your examination will last for five hours and a
6 quarter, and as we have six hours sitting today, in principle at the end
7 of the day you will be able to leave and go back home.
8 Having said that, I'm going to give the floor to the Defence. I
9 don't know who is going to start off. Mr. Karnavas.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:
12 Q. Good morning, Mufti.
13 A. Good morning.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to say something?
15 I have a remark to make.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please go ahead.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During my last examination,
18 Mr. Kovacic said something, made a statement that has no foundation, is
19 not based on justice and the truth and might have an effect in people
20 drawing the wrong conclusions, and this is what it's about: There's a
21 fragment upon which the gentleman built up his defence, and that was
22 linked to the extremist behaviour in very extreme situations when it came
23 to prisoners, and he said that that was a model of behaviour and that
24 people had the duty to behave that way according to Islamic law.
25 Now, I found this little booklet when I was home, and I found that
1 this was a trick, and I'm going to give you those quotations, if you like.
2 You will, of course, decide --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll look at the
4 problem, but perhaps some of the other counsel will raise the problem
5 again and this will give you an opportunity to say what you wish to say.
6 There we have it. Anyway, thank you for intervening.
7 Counsel Karnavas has the floor.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Good morning again. Okay, since you brought up the topic, let's
11 get right to it. In your testimony - and I'm quoting from page 2472, on
12 24 May, 2006 - you were asked a question by the Prosecutor with respect to
13 your duties as mufti, which as I understand is pretty much at the same
14 level as a bishop in, say, the Catholic or the Orthodox religions. And in
15 that question you said that part your duties were contributing to the
16 affirmation of religious values in the most proper manner. That was what
17 you said. Do you recall saying that, and I take it you stand by that.
18 Now, first and foremost, I want to make sure that we're clear. I
19 am not, and I don't believe Mr. Kovacic did either, or any of my
20 colleagues will say, that you were the author of the "Instructions for
21 Muslim Fighters." As you indicated, that came from Zenica, but you also
22 indicated that that was either authored by or it was published with the
23 approval of the Zenica mufti; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Now, you indicated that theirs -- the head of the Islamic church
1 in Bosnia is in Sarajevo. That's Reis-ul-Ulema. I don't know if I'm
2 pronouncing it correctly.
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. And his closest advisors, associates, his peers, I would assume
5 he's somewhat like first among equals, maybe slightly higher, they're all
6 the muftis in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you being one of them; correct?
7 A. That is correct, yes.
8 Q. Now, I think that there's no dilemma in us knowing that during the
9 war, unfortunately, there were individuals on all sides that, you know,
10 committed extreme acts that no one should have to tolerate in a civilised
11 society. Would you agree with me on that?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And unfortunately again, some foreign fighters came, perhaps on
14 all sides, but since you're here, we're speaking of Islamic fighters that
15 came, and with them they brought traditions, practices, habits which are
16 not necessarily -- or do not necessarily comport with the Geneva
17 Conventions. Would you agree with me on that?
18 A. On all sides. That was a good thing you said. There were groups
19 of people on all sides. We can call them Mujahedin if you like. But
20 anyway, they existed in the army or, rather, attached to the army or
21 independent units of Mujahedins, and the Croatian Defence had mercenaries,
22 and the Serb side had mercenaries as well. They were legionaries and they
23 did dirty things. And it is my duty to be quite frank and tell you all
24 this. The positions, to a certain extent, of the Mujahedin attached to
25 the army is a little different from the legionaries and mercenaries on the
1 other sides because they joined the aggressive forces, whereas the
2 Mujahedin nonetheless, although what you said some of it is true, they did
3 nevertheless help the victims; the Bosniaks, the Muslims who were the
4 victims of the aggression.
5 Q. Let me stop you there. You know being -- I think, aside from
6 being a religious leader, we're also colleagues in the sense that you're a
7 trained lawyer. Maybe in a different kind of law, but nonetheless you're
8 lawyer like I am, and you would agree with me that the Geneva Conventions
9 does not make a distinction between aggressor or non-aggressor, or
10 defender, whatever you want to call the term. All sides to a conflict
11 have to abide by certain rules; right? So it doesn't really make a
12 difference at the end of the day. Would you agree with me on that?
13 A. Yes, I would agree with that absolutely.
14 Q. And in this particular instance, it would appear that a religious
15 leader who was among the family and closest advisors of the Reis-ul-Ulema
16 and one of your own colleagues introduced a booklet that clearly provides
17 for practices that are not -- that are inconsistent not only with the
18 Geneva Conventions but also with the laws as they existed back then in the
19 former Yugoslavia, including Bosnia-Herzegovina, whether it was the
20 Republic, the Socialist Republic, or what have you. Would you agree with
21 me on that?
22 A. Well, you've put things very rightly. However, to present a view
23 of the Koran of universal importance is not -- that is applied, that is to
24 say apply religious rules in -- is differently applied in different
25 environments. So there are some universal positions, but it is quite
1 normal to respect the state legislation in a country and, for example, in
2 -- that Bosnia-Herzegovina is not an Islamic state. And -- with your
3 permission, may I just be allowed to finish.
4 These are instructions. These instructions have to do more with
5 the moral code of conduct. That is the important part. It is a moral
6 code of conduct. So they cannot be applied in Bosnia-Herzegovina, all the
8 Q. You say that they cannot be applied, but when you look at the
9 instructions they're for Bosnian -- or for fighters within
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They talk about the homeland of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
11 and it's put out by a -- by a mufti of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it would
12 appear, sir - and you can answer yes or no on this question and then we'll
13 move on - that no one within the hierarchy of the Islamic Community, the
14 Reis-ul-Ulema or any of the other muftis, including you, took a public
15 position and said no, this kind of conduct is inconsistent with our
16 values, our laws, the laws of the international community that we have
17 adopted. No one in -- no one from the Islamic Community, the higher-ups,
18 took that position. And by not taking that position, in essence it was
19 like giving a green light to this sort of behaviour.
20 MR. SCOTT: Objection, Your Honour. Again, this has now gone on
21 for about 12 lines of text and is argument rather than questioning, and
22 especially this last part. Not only does Mr. Karnavas state the question,
23 but then he states the answer that he -- his argument that he wants to
24 make. By "giving a green light," Your Honour, that goes beyond putting a
25 question to this witness. It's simply an argument.
1 MR. KARNAVAS:
2 Q. Did you take a public position, sir? Yes or no. There is no
3 explanation on this one. You either stood in front of your congregation,
4 in front of the folks, or got on the radio and said do not apply at least
5 this piece of instruction which talks about liquidation of prisoners. Did
6 you take a public position? Yes or no. The answer --
7 A. Yes, we did, countless times.
8 Q. Publicly.
9 A. And, please, if we're going to be proper, do you have the original
10 of the text of the instructions, the set of instructions?
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in fact, I'm going to be
12 introducing it into evidence. I'm just asking you, did you take a public
13 position where you said, Mujahedin, you folks who have come from Iran or
14 from Afghanistan, or from Iraq or wherever you come from, and you
15 homegrown folks, including the Efendi Halilovic, one of your colleagues,
16 do not liquidate prisoners as these instructions published by the mufti of
17 Zenica for fighters within Bosnia-Herzegovina. Did you take a public
18 position? Yes or no.
19 A. Yes, we did.
20 Q. Okay. With that, I accept it, I'll move on.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: And for the record, Your Honour, the document that
22 I'm referring to is 1D 00505 and I'll be introducing this into evidence.
23 Q. Moving on to Naser Efendi Halilovic. I just have a few questions
24 on this. You indicated last time that you were here that this gentleman
25 was from the Konjic area, wanted to go back to assist in -- in protecting
1 his homeland, fighting against the aggressors, and which is why you, along
2 with the other members of the Islamic Community, I guess gave him a leave
3 of absence, for lack of a better term. It was a leave of absence of his
4 religious duties so he could fight.
5 A. That is correct. And there's nothing strange in that.
6 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me on this point: That when he goes
7 there to the field, that he's not looked upon as just another fighter,
8 another Muslim or Bosniak, but he's looked upon by his colleagues or his
9 -- his -- his friends, his compatriots, his fellow fighters, as someone
10 who is a religious leader? You would agree with me on that, wouldn't you?
11 They would look to him; right?
12 A. They would, yes.
13 Q. Okay. Yes.
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And it seems to me -- now, you indicated that you did not get this
16 letter from -- or the attachment that was sent to you along with the
17 letter, and it was introduced as D -- as 2D 00016 by, I believe, my good
18 colleague from Sarajevo, Ms. Nozica.
19 In this particular document, it clearly states that as early 1990,
20 this gentleman joined -- he took -- he took an active role in SDA politics
21 in the Konjic municipality and was promoting fundamentalism in public
22 appearances. Now, this is 1990. Okay? Let's me ask you this: Back in
23 1990, nothing was happening in Zepa or Srebrenica as you had indicated
24 that's why he was going to fight. 1990. Let me tell you, I'm familiar
25 with the war, okay? Nothing happens until about 1992, 1993, in the
1 Srebrenica area. And then, of course, we know what happened in 1995. But
2 that's not a dilemma.
3 But here they're talking about him as early as 1990. Here's one
4 of your fellows or your colleagues or somebody underneath you actively
5 engaging in SDA politics and preaching fundamentalism.
6 A. Can you just tell me who those allegations are that he's
7 propagating fundamentalism, promoting fundamentalism? The rest is quite
8 true. But I'd like to know who made this assessment about promoting
10 Q. Okay. It's the head of SIS. Okay?
11 A. Ah, well, that's a vital point.
12 Q. We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that at some
13 point because, as I understand it - and maybe I don't want to get too far
14 ahead of myself - but as I understand it, you have some sort of experience
15 first-hand with -- with the security services, because at least there are
16 some documentations that you were working for the security services as
17 early as 1976 and onwards; correct?
18 A. No, that's not correct.
19 Q. Okay. But there is documentation. Whether you were working or
20 not, there's documentation. You even have a code name assigned to you in
21 the documentation. I mean, we could go to it right now, if you like.
22 A. Well, with your permission, I can address that.
23 Q. But I'm asking you is there documentation that refers to you as
24 Rusmir? That's your cross name, your code name, Rusmir, as being one of
25 those individuals that was assisting the security services in the old
1 Yugoslavian days, when that was kind of a common practice the US seems to
2 have adopted these days, spying and so on on its own citizens, but back in
3 those days, according to the documentation - it's been made public as
4 well- you had a code name called Rusmir, and apparently you were providing
5 vital information on your fellow members within the Islamic community
6 including -- including Alija Izetbegovic. I'm not saying whether it's
7 true or not. I'm saying there is documentation. Would you agree with me
8 on that?
9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, why doesn't Mr. Kovacic [sic] put the
10 documents to the witness?
11 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to do that -- May I do my cross, Your
13 MR. SCOTT: This all came up in the -- Everyone in the courtroom
14 knows about it --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we've understood the
16 problem. I assume, Mr. Karnavas, that the document is one you're going to
17 present to us. Because you're making an oral assertion, I assume you're
18 backing it up with a document.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: You're absolutely certain, Your Honour. I would
20 like the gentleman to first say yea or nay. You know, if the documents
21 are there, I can show them. I don't want to have a big discussion. I'm
22 not -- as to whether he was in fact a double agent, a triple agent, or
23 what have you, but if he first acknowledges that there is documentation,
24 then I can show the documentation to him.
25 Q. Do you agree that there is public documentation regarding your
1 activities within the security services? Okay. Very well.
2 Let's look at -- since this is taking longer than I would like,
3 let's look at -- yes what? There is documentation? 1D 00 --
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. There is
5 no answer on the transcript.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You asked the question. Shall
8 we wait for the witness's answer?
9 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise. I assumed that the translators had
10 already completed my question and the gentleman who, as I understand also
11 speaks English, is --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're going much too fast.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise. I apologise to you, sir, as well, and
14 to the translators and interpreters and all the folks in the technical
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The best thing would be to ask
17 the question again and then we can have the answer.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
19 Q. You have seen or you have heard of documentation out there in the
20 public where it makes reference to you being within the security services
21 as early as 1996 [sic] and onwards, and where even in one particular
22 document it refers to you, with a code name, as Rusmir, R-u-s-m-i-r.
23 A. I was not aware of that.
24 Q. Okay. Well, if I could just show you the documents. I don't want
25 to have a lengthy discussion, but simply if you could look at the
1 documents. I'll first look and show you document D 0047 -- 427, and I
2 merely want you to -- to look at -- The transcript should be 1976 as
3 opposed to 1996. That was on page 12, line 17, and I want to thank my
4 colleague for pointing that out.
5 But if we could show this document. Okay. And I just want you to
6 look at number 40 on the document and see whether that is your name and
7 whether that is your correct date of birth in one of the columns. Again,
8 it's 1D 00427. If it's not working, I have -- we can put it on the ELMO.
9 Madam Usher, if you could help us out here. This document, by the way,
10 came from the --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Scott. Let's
12 have a look at the document on the overhead projector before you say what
13 you have to say.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: And also, yeah, I have a clean copy in English as
15 well. I don't know if Your Honours have a copy of it, but -- they don't.
16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, potentially very serious allegations are
17 being made against this witness, and the document that's been put in front
18 us now, at least what I see -- if I am missing a page, I'll stand to be -
19 and invite to be corrected, in fact, if I'm missing something, but what
20 has been given to me and what I see is a list of names which is something
21 apparently taken out of a document that starts on number 33. I don't know
22 what 1 through 32 is. I don't even know where this document came from.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay, I can help --
24 MR. SCOTT: There should be some provenance given for this
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I'm surprised and shocked,
2 actually, that the Prosecutor would even say that, because this was an
3 exhibit in a previous case where he, in fact, not only was the Prosecutor
4 but I also understand might have even directed the witness. So if you
5 look at the very first page, it says that it comes from the Naletelic aka
6 Tuta case. This was in the EDS system. That's where we got it from. Or
7 the JDB, I'm sorry. So that's where the document came from.
8 And then I would like to show the gentleman the next document --
9 incidentally, let's get that answer.
10 Q. Now 40, that is your name, is it not, sir?
11 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm not going to accept that, Your
12 Honour. The fact that it came from another case doesn't tell us the
13 source of the document.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: It was accepted in the other case, obviously --
15 MR. SCOTT: I'm waiting for the Court to be free so I can direct
16 my comments. Your Honour, the only thing that Mr. Karnavas told us just
17 now is that it was used in another case. That still tells us nothing
18 about the provenance of the document, where it came from. Is this a
19 Croatian intelligence document that has purely been fabricated to put
20 Mr. Smajkic's name on the list? We don't know where this document came
21 from or what it is at all, and Your Honours certainly don't know and you
22 should be told before it's put to this witness.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: First of all, Your Honours --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel --
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I can put it into context, first of all, with
2 the other document.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Karnavas, when you
4 present a document, to avoid wasting time with objections, you have to
5 tell us where the document comes from, what the source is. It could have
6 been produced during an examination by X or Witness Y, and it was recorded
7 under number P whatever. So that is the procedure.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand. I understand, Mr. President, and
9 there is a technical reason why I haven't done that. However, I do want
10 to register my sort of discontent with the Prosecution, because he very
11 well knows and he's merely obstructing at this point. But this particular
12 document, as I understand it, was found within the contents of Arif
13 Pasalic, who is dead now, and this particular document was introduced at
14 the time in the Tuta/Stela case. And I'll be more than happy to brief the
15 Trial Chamber at some later point on this issue, to lay a more thorough
16 foundation. I just need some leeway. And in any event, given the Rules
17 of Evidence, I'm merely at this point in time asking the gentleman if that
18 is his name, if that is his date of birth, and I would like to connect it
19 with the other document, which is 1D 00472.
20 Q. Is that your correct date of birth, sir?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Can we show the gentleman the next document,
24 1D 00472, please. And for Your Honours, if -- and to save some time, if
25 you could look at the second page of the actual text. It's a proposal.
1 If it's not working on the e-court -- again, could we have Madam Usher --
2 it is. I don't see it. This is another document, 1D 00472. Okay. One
3 is 427 and this one is 472.
4 Excuse me, we could go a lot quicker if we could just put it on
5 the ELMO. I don't see it on the e-court. I'm trying to save some time.
6 I understand. I'd rather do it the old fashioned way, madam. Thank you.
7 Let me have my copy.
8 Q. If you could look at the second page of this document -- well,
9 look at the first page where it says "Proposal." It starts off with:
10 "Smajkic Seid, son of Dervis," and it goes on and on, and the date of
11 birth is 9 February, 1947. That would be you, would it not?
12 A. I don't have that on my screen.
13 Q. Okay. If you go to the proposal, ma'am. In the B/C/S, it would
14 be the second page. It's called "Prijedlog."
15 Okay. You could see from the very first line -- it seems to be
16 your name, and on the very first line it seems to have the same date of
17 birth, 9/2/1947; is that correct? I'm not interested in the content.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And if we could flip to the next page - thank you, Madam
20 Usher - and look at the very last line, the very last line, the second
21 page. And, Your Honours, if you could do the same on that. You would
22 see --
23 MR. Scott: Excuse me. Could we please zero on the language?
24 It's not legible, at least from what I've seen.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours, if I may be allowed to do my
1 cross-examination. The gentleman is looking at it. If he cannot read it,
2 he will say so.
3 MR. SCOTT: I can't read it, Your Honours, and I'd like to know --
4 MR. KARNAVAS: It's in English.
5 MR. SCOTT: I can't see it on the screen. If they can enlarge on
6 the screen, please, that's all I'm asking.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I can give him a copy.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but --
9 MR. KARNAVAS: [Previous translation continues] ... hard copy.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If it's legible.
11 MR. KARNAVAS:
12 Q. In the proposal, second page, the very last word, does it not say
13 "Rusmir"? In fact, I'll read the last paragraph: "According to the fact
14 that so far Smajkic put full readiness for consciously, organised
15 undercover and consent executing of the certain tasks of service, and
16 having in mind his honesty, willingness, and skill he has shown at these
17 jobs, we recommend his registration as an associate of SDB under the
18 pseudonym Rusmir."
19 And then we have at the bottom, it says: "Approval from the chief
20 of the centre of SDB, dated 6 March, 1980." That would be about the same
21 time that you became chief mufti of Mostar. It says: "On the basis of
22 Article 46 of the Rules of Procedure, SDB, registration of Associate
23 Rusmir is approved."
24 Were you able to read that, sir?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. I have no further questions on this issue.
2 Now, I just want to go very quickly through some of your testimony.
3 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Your Honour. There was no question. We just
4 spent ten minutes going through a document and he says, Can you read that?
5 And there's no question or chance for the witness to clarify?
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Again I can understand Mr. Scott's willingness or
7 his predilection to try to assist the witness. The question was, was he a
8 member, early on, way back, and was he aware of public documents? He said
9 no. Then I was told you got to show him the documents. I showed him the
10 documents. I wanted to make sure that this was his correct date of birth.
11 He acknowledged it. I move on. I made my point. He said he wasn't
12 aware. I showed them. These are public documents. Now, we all are aware,
13 I'll move on. Where is the dilemma other than obstruction from the
15 MR. SCOTT: Are they public documents or are they some
16 confidential intelligence report that this man has never seen before?
17 MR. KARNAVAS: It's from a book, Your Honour. It's from a book.
18 He has the hard copy of the book, he has the first page, and the
19 Prosecution is well aware of this.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. But -- well,
21 the Defence has showed you a document. It -- counsel read out the last
22 paragraph. The Prosecution rose to object. Now, at this point, do you
23 have any comments to make or are you saying that what is written down is
24 false? Do you have a comment to make? Do you have any reaction when
25 faced with this? There we have it. What can you tell us?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Of course
2 I do have a comment, and I have very many things to say in response, but
3 of course I do not wish to burden you with a description of the situation
4 that obtained at the time in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it is a notorious
5 untruth that I was a collaborator of the secret service of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina, the secret security service of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It
7 is, however, true, Your Honours, that not only I myself but many religious
8 dignitaries had occasion to have individual conversations on specific
9 topics, and we were invited for such conversations in order to give our
10 perception of things, of developments.
11 In view of the fact that the former communist regime actually was
12 against religious work, the assertion of religion as such, we were
13 constantly under observation, so that in some situations, in some delicate
14 situations, security staff would invite me too personally for talks. But
15 never, ever, and I underscore that for the -- for a hundred times, I was
16 never ever asked to be a collaborator of that service but only to impart
17 some information which was of relevance at the time in respect of the then
18 current interests of the service.
19 So our trips to other countries, particularly Arabic countries - I
20 studied in Islamic countries on a specific mission - always were attended
21 by a network of observers, namely surveillors as to whom I had met, what
22 conversations I had had, and so on. And as to what they put down in their
23 notebooks and what records they had made, I really have no idea because no
24 one ever showed that to me nor did I have any idea that such a document
25 existed until this book was published that was today shown and which is
1 now already accessible to the broad public.
2 The Islamic community undertook an investigation in that respect
3 and actually put an end to that matter as such, having come to this
4 conclusion which I have just described. So that after such talks that we
5 had from time to time, I have no idea what those people put down and how
6 they portrayed those talks. Of course, they would perhaps be expected to
7 boast that they had managed to recruit some people for their activities,
8 but I don't know that and I can't say that was so.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue, Counsel
11 MR. KARNAVAS:
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... first you denied knowing it,
13 then you said it was published in a book, then you said that you first
14 learned of it here, then you said that the Islamic community did an
15 investigation. That's -- that's your answer today, in a nutshell, and
16 that you never worked maybe other than having some informative talks with
18 A. Yes, yes. That is correct.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we can move on. In your --
20 in your -- and I'm going to go through some topics, and hopefully I can be
21 through with my cross-examination within the next 45 minutes or so.
22 Now, when you testified last time that you were here - and this is
23 24 May, 2006 - you were asked a question about having to go up to Split
24 with Mr. Topic, appearing on television, and at which time Mr. Topic had
25 indicated words to the effect that the east side is for the Serbs, the
1 west side is for the -- for the Croats, and of course the joke was that
2 the Neretva was for the Muslims. Do you recall that exchange? And that
3 could be found, actually -- I'm paraphrasing but the entire exchange is
4 from page 2493 all the way to 2496 of the transcript dated 24 May, 2006.
5 But you recall that exchange; right?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. And in fact, what you -- you then went on to indicate that that
8 more or less, at least in your mind, verified what had come out in the
9 press that Mr. Mate Boban and Karadzic at Graz had formed an agreement?
10 A. We can feel that in the field. Namely, this agreement was
11 reflected in the field.
12 Q. Okay. We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that.
13 But before we get to feelings and reflections, I want to make sure that
14 your testimony was that based on Topic's remarks - and this was prior to
15 the liberation, as I understand it, of the east side, okay? - it was your
16 understanding and belief that Topic's remarks verified, at least in your
17 mind, that there had been agreement between Mate Boban and Karadzic, and
18 that's what you testified to under oath; correct?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. Okay. All right. And in fact, a document was shown that at least
21 does not bear the signature of Mr. Mate Boban, remember? There was --
22 there was an exhibit or a document that was shown purporting what the
23 agreement was all about, but we haven't seen an actual agreement with the
24 signature, correct, and a stamp?
25 A. I shall not enter into that. I did not have it myself, but there
1 was a discussion on it last time as you yourself just indicated. There
2 was a discussion.
3 Q. Now, I just want to share with you -- I just want to share with
4 you and perhaps with everyone who is following this trial a letter that
5 was sent by Mate Boban to -- it's a public statement, actually, to the
6 group of Croatia -- Croatians in the diaspora. It's dated 17 May, 1992,
7 it's 1D 00428. We may need to get this on the ELMO because the signature
8 line and the stamp may not be reflected in the e-court. Thank you very
9 much, Madam Usher, I appreciate the assistance. And, Your Honours, I
10 believe you might have it as well, assuming we are efficient today.
11 And if we could look at at least the very second paragraph. Look
12 at both pages, if you would. If you want to look at -- just look at the
13 first page, look at the last page. I want you to look at the last page
14 primarily so you could at least tell us whether that purports to be -- I
15 know you may or may not be aware of the signature, but with the seal and
16 in Boban's -- Mate Boban's signature, would -- would that at least seem to
17 be correct?
18 You don't know.
19 A. I can't say.
20 Q. All right. But nonetheless it does say Mate Boban, does it not?
21 And that seal does look like the seal of the -- that was being used at the
22 time by Mr. Boban; correct? Yeah, okay?
23 A. Probably.
24 Q. Now, if we could go to the very first page, the very first page,
25 because we'll see there at the very top of the page on the -- on the left
1 side, we'll see a date 17 May, 1992. 17 May, 1992. I'm underscoring that
2 because this date, as I understand it, precedes, precedes the liberation
3 of the east side of Mostar, which by this point was more or less under
4 siege and occupied by the JNA, Montenegrin, Chetnik, you name it, whatever
5 you want to call it, forces that were attacking at the time; correct?
6 A. That is the date on which activities were being undertaken to
7 liberate the city.
8 Q. Right. Now -- and it would seem that this date more or less
9 coincides with your trip -- at least, if we -- if we do -- you know, if we
10 try to factor in when you -- you claim you went to Split, this would have
11 been just about the time that you went to Split and appeared on television
12 with Mr. Topic, on or about. I don't know the exact date, but it's around
13 this period. And it definitely would be post Graz meeting between Boban
14 and Karadzic; correct?
15 A. I can't say with precision what particular date it was and whether
16 it was after the 21st of May or on the 19th.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. But it was in the spirit. But let me just tell you, if we wish to
19 clear things up, when Mr. Topic appeared on the screen to speak, the
20 caption underneath --
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
22 A. -- said the mayor --
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
24 A. -- of Mostar. So it's quite possible it was the 21st.
25 Q. My question was is this about the time? Yes or no or I don't
1 know; one of the three.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, you claim that based on the conversations, whenever they may
4 be, they're in the record from your previous testimony, that Topic's
5 remarks verified in your mind that there had been agreement between Mate
6 Boban and Karadzic. And now what I want to do is focus your attention to
7 paragraph 2 of this document dated 17 May, 1992. And just the very first
8 line. I'm not going to go through the entire document. We don't have
9 three days, as I would like to take you through to cross-examine you, but
10 all we can see from the first line from the second paragraph: "The talks
11 in Graz, when it concerns the Croatian side, didn't have any intention of
12 signing any document that would contribute the splitting of BiH, or to
13 denying rights to Muslims, the constitutive nation of BiH."
14 It doesn't get any clearer than that, does it? You see that, do
15 you not, sir? And by the way, he's addressing a group of Croatians in the
16 diaspora, many, of course, have -- many of them have their own claims of
17 where the borders of the Republic of Croatia ought to be. And yet here he
18 is, the president of HZ HB, telling the folks out in the diaspora, who by
19 the way - and correct me if I'm wrong - at this period in history are
20 sending money into Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Croatians in order to fend
21 off the Serb aggression; correct? And he's telling them this -- there was
22 no agreement.
23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, it's not --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. SCOTT: It's not my practice to interrupt cross-examination so
1 often. I understand the latitude of cross-examination. But as long as
2 Mr. Karnavas continues doing it incorrectly, I have no choice but to
3 continue to rise to my feet. Look at your screen right now, Your Honour.
4 I invite the Court's attention to the screen. Look at this question.
5 Look at this question: It goes on for some 20, 25 lines of text, argument
6 after argument after argument.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll move on, Your Honour.
8 MR. SCOTT: Don't just move on. Don't just put the question and
9 then say "I'll move on." Either put a question to the witness or don't.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll do it in baby steps, Your Honour. At this
11 point in time --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Karnavas, first of all,
13 try and speak slower, please, because the interpreters are having a hard
14 time following, and so is the court reporter, and sometimes some of your
15 words are left out because of that. So try and do that for the benefit of
16 one and all.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise. I'm trying to work within this new
18 system, Your Honour, of trying to condense my cross. So ...
19 Q. At this point in time the war was raging, was it not, in Bosnia?
20 A. Yes, it was.
21 Q. The Croats -- the Croats, like the Muslims, you know, are
22 depending on the folks in the diaspora to send them aid, including money,
23 to assist in their defence; right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. And I don't think it's a great secret, we're not going to be
1 revealing anything, that there were elements of the Croatian diaspora who
2 had certain ideas, and perhaps even still have certain ideas today, as to
3 how far the borders of Croatia extend to, and some may even say all the
4 way up to the Drina. Would you agree with me on that?
5 A. That is right. That is so.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... so at this point in time, in
7 history, when Boban, as the president of the HZ HB, is relying on
8 financial assistance from the diaspora, the very same folks who may
9 harbour ideas as to where the borders may be, he is saying concretely in
10 his letter here, in his answer, that, one, there was no agreement to split
11 up. That's what we read. Would you agree with me on that, that that's
12 what it says?
13 A. Perhaps that is what it says, but that is not a document to be --
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
15 A. -- believed. It is of a duplicitous nature, as far as documents
16 are concerned.
17 Q. Then it goes on that talks were held on the request of conference
18 on BiH of the European Union and after the conference they were held
19 bilaterally. Does it not say that? Just give me a yes or no.
20 A. I actually did not follow this text.
21 Q. All right. Further down, it says: "There was no secret
22 arrangements of splitting the BiH or 'betrayal' of anyone's interests."
23 Do you see that? Okay.
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And then if we -- then if we go to the third paragraph - and this
1 is just the last point I want to raise on this before we move on - it says
2 in the second sentence of the third paragraph: "Representatives of Muslim
3 people didn't show up because they couldn't leave Sarajevo due to
4 blockades." Does it not say that?
5 A. I'm sorry, I'm slightly lost in this text --
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
7 A. -- but if you say so. Where is it?
8 Q. Third paragraph. The paragraph -- third paragraph, and it starts
9 with the second sentence: "Representatives of Muslim people didn't show
10 up because they couldn't leave Sarajevo due to blockades." Right? And --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- historically speaking, historically speaking - just so we can
13 thread this needle - at that particular point in time, at that particular
14 point in time, Sarajevo was indeed under siege, was it not? There were
15 blockades. It was being heavily attacked by the aggressors. Okay.
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Thank you. I'll move on. And we're going to have to move on a
18 little quicker than I -- hopefully I'll be a little more efficient.
19 Now, you testified -- you -- you testified about a letter that was
20 shown to you with respect to -- a letter that you got from Mr. Topic where
21 you thought it was threatening in some -- in some manner. Apparently you
22 had made some requests, and he came back, and you took that letter to be
23 somewhat threatening. It is P 00731. If we can have it on -- on the --
24 on the e-court. If not, we have plenty of copies over here. I just want
25 to touch on this a little bit and then go on to another document.
1 But in essence - and you're familiar with this document - in this
2 particular document he's telling you that -- that you need to devote
3 yourself primarily to spiritual matters and not politics; right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And that may not necessarily be a threat, is it? I mean,
6 sometimes politics and religion shouldn't mix. I'm not saying always, but
7 sometimes, at least.
8 A. Actually, I felt it on my own skin.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
10 A. You could put it that way, yes.
11 Q. Now, one of the complaints is about -- one of the complaints is
12 about -- that you're raising is about the premises, that you don't have
13 sufficient premises, you being the mufti, the head of the Islamic
14 community, and of course you have certain responsibilities and what have
15 you. So is it not a fact that Mr. Topic is telling you, basically, be
16 patient? Is he not saying that? And I can read the relevant portions of
17 it. But he's telling you to be patient. Is he not saying that? Yes or
18 no, and then we'll move on. Okay?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
23 A. I'm familiar with the content, I don't have to read the text.
24 Q. Okay. And he says -- at least at one point, he says: "The war
25 government of the Croatian Defence Council is working to find
1 accommodation for your mufti offices. As soon as legally valid acts are
2 adopted in relation to denationalisation, we shall enable the owners to
3 take possession of their property whenever possible." He says that, does
4 he not? Is that a yes? You have to -- for the record you have to say
5 yes, or no.
6 A. That is what the letter says.
7 Q. Okay. Now, when he's talking about denationalisation, he's
8 talking about property that was actually taken, confiscated, used,
9 whatever the word you may want, borrowed, by the old communists or
10 socialists, whatever your predilection is. Basically some call themselves
11 communists, some socialists, but by and large they confiscated properties
12 and now the denationalisation refers to giving back the property to the
13 rightful owners; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. That is what it says.
17 Q. All right. And I take it the Islamic community wasn't spared,
18 like any of the other communities or individuals. Properties were taken
19 from the Islamic community by the old socialists or communists.
20 A. Most of the property -- actually, the communist regime took most
21 of the property from the Islamic community at that time, as well as from
22 other religious communities.
23 Q. Now, if we can look at --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Counsel, please.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Sorry.
1 Q. If we can look at 1D 00436. 1D 00436. I don't know if it's on
2 this electronic -- but we have the ELMO, thank God.
3 If we can look at this document, sir, and just look at it for a
4 second, and while you're looking at it, let me say it looks at the bottom
5 of it, it says Friday, 24 July, 1992. It looks like it comes from a --
6 the Official Gazette, and it's titled "Decision on the housing of the
7 mufti's office of Herzegovina and the board of the Islamic regional
8 community." Does it not say that, sir?
9 A. It is not signed by Mr. Topic. Anyone could have written this
11 Q. Excuse me. It says at the bottom "Official Gazette." It's from
12 the Official Gazette. You know as well as I do that they don't sign every
13 decision on the actual Official Gazette. They merely publish so folks
14 like us, later on, can see what exactly is going on in the community and
15 what laws are being passed, and what decisions. And this in fact, sir, is
16 not a decision, and does it not say -- does it not say that article 1:
17 "The public housing and utilities office shall find an appropriate
18 solution to help the Islamic religious community house the mufti's office
19 of Herzegovina and the board of the Islamic religious community." It says
20 that, right? It either says it or it doesn't. Does it say it? Okay, we
21 will --
22 A. It does say that.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... get there step-by-step, trust
25 A. I accept that.
1 Q. Okay. Then we --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are overlapping again, for the
3 record. Thank you.
4 MR. KARNAVAS:
5 Q. Then we go to article 2. It says the business premises next to
6 the -- this particular mosque in Racina [phoen], the former Merkur Mostar
7 shoe shop are here by returned - returned - to the Islamic religious
8 community since it is their rightful owner. So here is an example of a
9 decision giving back, and so on and so forth. Now I don't want to dwell
10 too much on this, but at least on 24 July, 1992, there is a decision
11 published in the Islamic -- in the Official Gazette where they're
12 attempting, at least, to return some property to -- that belonged to the
13 Islamic community and at the same time making a promise - because that's
14 what it says, it's a promise - shall find, okay? Does it make that
15 promise? Yes or no. There's a promise in there.
16 A. Yes. It says that a solution shall be found.
17 Q. Right. Now, I don't want to -- I know that we're going -- we're
18 not going to agree on this, whether a solution to your satisfaction was
19 found, but you would agree with me on this, that -- hold on. I'm saying
20 that a solution to your satisfaction was not found, was not found. A
21 solution to your satisfaction may not have been found. However - and this
22 is a big "however" - that period of time was a rather difficult period of
23 time for Mostar, both west and east, was it not?
24 A. Yes, it was.
25 Q. And let's face it, that city was not ready to absorb all the
1 refugees that had come into the city and accommodate all the displaced
2 people, including you being one of them, and all of your offices; right?
3 A. Yes. There were problems with finding adequate accommodation and
5 Q. And it would appear, at least, if I understand you correctly, we
6 have a decision here which shows a good faith effort is being made but
7 nonetheless you feel -- you felt then and perhaps you feel today that they
8 weren't moving fast enough or good enough to accommodate you where
9 perhaps, when it came to the Catholics and the Catholic bishop, they
10 showed a greater preference or a greater expediency in trying to resolve
11 the bishop's problems. That's what this misunderstanding was all about.
12 A. You are quite right, and that is what I --
13 Q. All right.
14 A. -- think still today.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... end of the day we're going to
16 have more in common than you think. Now, I want to talk a little bit
17 about -- you indicated that the streets were changed, okay? Now -- and at
18 one point a document was shown to you, and I believe it was from a
19 Croatian -- go ahead. Keep it short. Go ahead.
20 A. I have to intervene at this point, with your permission. I went
21 to see Mr. Topic. I went to his office and asked him to find
22 accommodation. Please believe me. He said, "We'll find something. I'll
23 try and find something." However, then the bishop came to see me, the new
24 bishop, from the Vatican, coming to Mostar. I'm not sleeping nights, I
25 can't sleep at night because I have to find him suitable accommodation. I
1 don't mind. I like the bishop to have the right accommodation. But the
2 building that they chose was wrong, because it was the building of the
3 Bosniak mayor, which in a way, the person responsible should not give the
4 residence of a mayor to a bishop.
5 Q. Okay. If I -- okay. I understand that you have some
6 disagreements with respect to how Mr. Topic handled the situation, but you
7 would agree with me, sir, that you were not the only one that was in his
8 office, asking for premises. I'm sure there were a lot of other people,
9 and I'm sure a lot of them feel the same way, looking at other neighbours
10 or other friends or other individuals, thinking that perhaps they should
11 have a better accommodation. So by and large, Mr. Topic was trying to
12 make the best. Perhaps he could have done better for you, but at the end
13 of the day, there's no threat in that letter. Okay.
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. Now, if we could go on to another issue, and that's the issue of
16 the streets. Mr. --
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Karnavas, please slow
18 down. Thank you.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Sorry. Okay. Everybody can take a deep breath,
20 okay, including myself.
21 Q. Now, on the streets. You were shown a document by the Prosecutor.
22 I believe it was P 08538. I don't need to see it. I don't need to see
23 it. We don't need to see it. It was from a newspaper, Dalmacija
24 something; right? Free Dalmacija?
25 A. Yes, Slobodna Dalmacija, Free Dalmatia.
1 Q. And I may be wrong but I believe the date may have been outside of
2 the relevant period we're talking about. It might be back 1995. But in
3 any event, based on that document you read and you told us that certain
4 street names were changed and certain street names were adopted that
5 brought back memories of a very dark period. Basically the Ustasha
6 period. Okay? For some it was a dark period, and in fact it was a dark
7 period; right?
8 A. Yes, that is true. I said that.
9 Q. Now that we agree on that, I just want to show you a decision, and
10 this is -- I'm going to be referring to -- to 439. I guess it's D -- D --
11 1D 00439. If we could look at this, and perhaps if you could have handy
12 440 and 462. 439, 440, 462. We'll do it real quickly. And I believe I
13 also need to show you -- So if we look at this on 439, he says "Priority
14 --" It's a decision. "Priority. The names of the streets in Mostar in
15 ideological meanings will be changed." And then it goes on, Article II,
16 all the names with Yugoslavian and ideological meanings. Again we're
17 talking about the communists and the socialists; right? Will expire.
18 That's what it says. That's that first decision, 439. Would you agree
19 with me on that? Dated 6 November, 1992. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Now, if you look at another decision - and I'm looking at
22 document 440 - on the appointment of the commission for the change of
23 names on the streets in Mostar. Again: 440, dated 6 November, 1992. It
24 appears that there's a department of communal housing affairs and
25 reconstruction is in charge to recommend members of the commission for
1 change of the names in the streets of Mostar. So it appears that a
2 commission is going to be set up on 6 November, 1992. Does it not say
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now, if we could go to 462, and here I want to draw your
6 attention. Here's where I want to draw your attention because this
7 appears to be the actual decision where the names are changed. We have
8 what existed or what was being changed to. The document on the second
9 page shows that it's 30 December, 1992. And if we go all the way down the
10 list, we can see very clearly what is being changed, and at least my
11 understanding from consulting with my colleagues, not having the benefit
12 of knowing the history or the language, it would appear to me that none of
13 these names reflect names of a dark period or names of individuals that
14 were of a particular political persuasion, primarily fascists.
15 Now, if we go all the way down to the bottom, the very last line -
16 and here, Your Honours, I'm drawing your close scrutiny and attention -
17 not only to last line but also we're going to look at your own testimony,
18 because apparently you make reference to this particular street, and it's
19 on page 2565 of the record dated 25 May, 2006, and in fact it's between
20 lines 11 and 21, you, sir, mistakenly, perhaps because you were relying on
21 a document that the Prosecution showed you, that newspaper said that the
22 street of Aleksa Santica was changed to a Dr. Mile Budak Street.
23 A. Yes, that is true.
24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
25 A. And the name stands today.
1 Q. I didn't say whether it stands or not, but this is what you said.
2 In this decision reflected on 30 December, 1992 -- now, whether it was
3 changed later on or not, I don't know, but at least in this decision, does
4 it not say that this very same street, Aleksa Santica is nullified and the
5 street will be given back the previous name? In other words, they're
6 adopting the names of the pre-socialist communist era of Racina, or
7 Rachina, or Rasina. I don't see the accent there. Or Ricina.
8 A. Ricina.
9 Q. R-i-c-i-n-a. This is the very same street, is it not? At least,
10 in this decision. I haven't been to Mostar lately to look up the street,
11 but in this decision does it not say that? Yes or no.
12 A. Ricina is the name of an area. I live there, and within that
13 particular area or district there is a street which is called Aleksa
14 Santic Street which is now called Dr. Mile Budak, and now there are
15 political battles in Mostar and there is a commission that has been set up
16 to do away with that new name, but they haven't succeeded yet.
17 Q. Well, there's a commission all over Bosnia in almost every city.
18 You know it and I know it. But let's face it, at least in this decision,
19 we have Mr. Topic, as of 30th December, 1992, issuing a decision that's
20 published in the Official Gazette that the name of the street is supposed
21 to have its previous name, does it not? Now, whether somebody else
22 changed it later on, I don't know. I'm just showing you the decision and
23 we can move on.
24 A. That would be a good thing had it stayed that way, or had anything
25 been done, for that matter, along those lines.
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... but you acknowledge -- I
2 guess I need to nail this point down. You acknowledge that we have a
3 decision in the Official Gazette that is dated December 30, 1992, that
4 does not adopt a name of some fascist doctor but, rather, it adopts the
5 old name. That is in the Official Gazette. That's what we read. We
6 agree on that; yes or no. Yes or no, do we agree?
7 A. I've just seen that. That's what it says.
8 Q. Okay. All right. Okay. Now, we're going to go to the -- now
9 we're going to go to the names of the schools.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Sorry.
12 Q. I'm going to refer to a document 1D 00438 - 1D 00438 - and again I
13 have a decision here, hopefully we'll get it for you. Do we have an extra
14 copy for Madam Usher? I think we should adopt a decision in this
15 courtroom to just use the ELMO, Mr. President. It's much easier for me.
16 Now, this is a decision. Again, Mr. Topic, again it looks like --
17 it's an official document, or it comes from the opstina Mostar. That's
18 the municipality of Mostar; right? In here you have the preamble, and
19 again if we look under Article 2 and you see the names that are being
20 changed, they're changed to rather innocuous names, first primary school,
21 second primary, third, fourth, "i tako dalje"; and so on and so forth.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And it would appear that a lot of these things that were
25 going on were not motivated against the Muslims, in other words that they
1 were trying to take out a Muslim name and insert a Croat name, but rather
2 during that period, at least, these folks wanted to get rid of any traces
3 on streets or public buildings that reminded them of communists or
4 socialists; right? At least that's what we see from here. Because First
5 Primary is pretty innocuous. Would you agree with me on that?
6 A. That's what it says in the document.
7 Q. Okay. All right. And it's a public document, is it not?
8 A. [No interpretation].
9 Q. Okay. Good. And incidentally, since I'm on the subject, since
10 I'm on the subject, you indicated on the record that the name of the
11 university was changed to Croatian University. That's in the transcript.
12 I can get my hands on it right now, but that's what you said. And before
13 we get to the -- before I show you these other documents, first that
14 university had the name of a particular individual. It was a Muslim name,
15 did it not? This institution.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Now, in -- but that person was also a communist, was he
18 not? First and foremost. I mean, we can agree whether -- I mean, whether
19 he was a Muslim, a Serb, or a Croat, the bottom line is he was a
20 communist; right? Okay.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I guess some folks identified him with being a communist, did
23 they not? And that's why the name was removed. And in fact, sir, in fact
24 - because I want to speed up a little bit - you are incorrect, are you
25 not, when you stated that the name of the university was changed to
1 Croatian University. That is not accurate, is it, sir?
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. I'll slow down. Sorry. Sorry.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, it's not only a question of the
4 university which bears the name of Dzemal Bijedic, but the post office,
5 for example.
6 MR. KARNAVAS:
7 Q. Mufti --
8 A. Ante Kovacic.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
10 A. It was called the Croatian post office.
11 Q. But it is your testimony -- it is your testimony -- and let me say
12 it one more time: It is your testimony, back then and it is today, that
13 that university changed from Dzemal Bijedic to Croatian University. That
14 is your testimony, and I have it right here. I have you on the record.
15 Is that your testimony? Yes, no, I misspoke; those are the three choices.
16 A. The university became the Croatian University whereas it was the
17 Dzemal Bijedic University.
18 Q. All right. I'll take that. I'll take that. Now, let's look at a
19 couple of documents.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just to be precise, Dzemal
21 Bijedic, the name that the university took, who was this man? Who was
22 Dzemal Bijedic? Who was he? Was he a communist? Who was he?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Dzemal Bijedic was from
24 Mostar. He was Mostar born and bred, and he was the Prime Minister of
25 Yugoslavia. He had two terms of office when President Tito [Realtime
1 transcript read in error "Izetbegovic"] was the president of Yugoslavia.
2 MR. KARNAVAS:
3 Q. There you go. I rest my case. He was a communist.
4 Now, we go on. I want to show you a couple of documents just very
5 quickly. Document 1D 00382 and then 383. 382, 383, very quickly. I'm
6 almost coming to the conclusion of my cross-examination.
7 If we could look at these two documents, sir, at the very top.
8 And I should -- and while you're looking at them, the record should
9 reflect President Tito. This is page 39, line 9. As far as I know,
10 Mr. Izetbegovic was never president of Yugoslavia, though he probably
11 would have wished to have been.
12 Okay, now, if we look at these two decisions sir, at the very top,
13 at the very top, at the preambular, it says: Pursuant to Article 9,
14 paragraph 3, indent 5, of degree on establishment and work of university
15 in Mostar. University in Mostar. And it has the national gazette number
16 6/92, that being probably June of 1992. So here, in June of 1992, there
17 appears to be a decision or decree -- okay. Hold on. Is this -- is this
18 -- let me put down. If you could put down -- put the section that --
19 that can be seen in this open section. Okay?
20 So you could see -- and over here, in fact, there's an appointment
21 and the appointment is of Dr. Mehmed Behmen. Do you see that, sir? Shall
22 be appointed the dean, the dean of mechanical engineering in Mostar. Do
23 you see that, sir?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. So from this document here, at least we can glean that the
1 name of the university is not Croatian University but, rather, it's
2 University of Mostar, University in Mostar, to be precise, making
3 reference to a decree that's in the national gazette. And again, because
4 you made reference to all the Muslims have been thrown out of their
5 positions, here we have Dr. Mehmed Behmen to be appointed a mechanical
6 engineer, and it would be fair to say, sir, that this gentleman is a
7 Muslim, today a Bosniak; correct? And that calls for a yes or no. Okay.
8 A. I know the man. I know Mr. Behmen.
9 Q. Yes, but is he a Muslim?
10 A. Yes, he is.
11 Q. And there's no dilemma, there's no dilemma that it says here
12 University in Mostar. At least, in this document. There's no dilemma.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Now if we get the document 383, the next document. You can
15 give these explanations to the Prosecutor because all I'm trying to
16 establish is, based on these documents, official documents, what they
17 reflect. These are the documents that the public would have seen, and
18 again 1D 00383, same preambular, again University of Mostar. Date of this
19 one is November 23, 1992. A Dr. Faruk Pavlovic shall be appointed Vice
20 Chancellor - Vice Chancellor - of the University in Mostar. Again, Dr.
21 Faruk Pavlovic, is he not, sir, a Muslim? And I'm sure you know the
23 A. Those are cadres who at that time were -- showed obedience to
24 Croatian policy.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
1 A. But yes, it's true that he was a Muslim.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
3 A. I have to say this. Please allow me to finish. Just one more
5 Q. Sir, he's either a Muslim or he's not a Muslim. He's either --
6 A. I said he was, yes, but I'd like to say something with respect to
7 the document.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Allow the witness to answer.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to draw your attention to
11 the fact that this is the Official Gazette of the Croatian Community of
12 Herceg-Bosna. It didn't the Official Gazette of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 Q. I understand that. There's no dilemma on that either, and thank
14 you for that clarification. Thank you.
15 A. It's the People's Gazette of the Croatian Community.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... unfortunate. It would have
17 been nice to have a few days.
18 Now, I want to go through the schools, because, again, there was
19 some indication, at least from you, that the appointments in the schools
20 had changed. And if I could go through these documents very quickly.
21 They're 1D -- 1D 00501, 500 and 499. We can go in this order. Just very
23 Now, just to save time, it says at the top of this document
24 Official Gazette of HVO Municipality of Mostar, okay?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Super. Now, if we could go to this, it says the appointment of
2 the executive principal 6 elementary school, and then we see the name
3 Samija Sefo, and it's 8 April, 1993. Okay. The name of the school is the
4 executive -- well, it's -- there's a temporary -- appointment of temporary
5 executive principal of the 6th elementary school in Mostar.
6 If we go to the next one, 1D 00500, again from the Official
7 Gazette, again April 8. Here is the 7th elementary school appointment of
8 the executive principal, Rasim Jakirovic. I hope I'm not butchering their
9 names too much, but ...
10 A. Jakirovic.
11 Q. Now, again, a Muslim, is he not, as was Samija. They're both
13 A. At the time there were only Muslims in those schools because
14 that's -- that's right, yes, yes, but the Croatian children were not --
15 yes, but that's the answer.
16 Q. But -- and this is signed by --
17 A. If you link the two, both parts of the answer.
18 Q. All right. All right. But at least -- at least they're not
19 appointing a Croat to a Muslim school where there are Muslim children.
20 And let's face it, there are some neighbourhoods where all Muslims, or
21 Bosniaks, are living, and all Croats and what have you, right? So if you
22 go up to the mahala, whatever it is, you might find all Muslim children
23 and at least there they are sensitive enough to appoint someone of their
24 own background as principal of that school.
25 Okay, and you would agree if we look at the last document,
1 1D 00499, again 8 April, Edin Music. And this is for an appointment of
2 temporary executive principal in the school of -- you're going to have to
3 help me out here, sir. Dreznica, right? Again, Edin Music.
4 A. Edin Music.
5 Q. Edin Music is a Muslim?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Okay. Super. Okay, we have one more, and this is 466. I
8 don't know if Madam Usher has it. I have it here. We could put it on
9 very quickly. Again, this is 24 March -- 24 March, 1993, again from the
10 Official Gazette of the municipality of Mostar HVO, and this is for
11 appointing of the deputy head of service of the public relations in the
12 office of the president of the HVO. Here we have a Mehmed Vejlagic
14 A. Mehmed Vejzagic. And that man changed his religion and remained a
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. So he wasn't chosen just by chance.
18 Q. All right. Okay. But they're Muslims.
19 A. He was one.
20 Q. Okay. When you say "he was," is that with a capital M or small
21 M? If you recall the old days when they made the distinction between
22 Muslim with a capital M and muslim with a small M. And for those of us
23 who don't know, what is that distinction from the old days? One deals
24 with religion and the other deals with nationality; right?
25 A. Well, I lived at -- in those old days.
1 Q. Okay. All right. And we could have some long discussions on that
2 one, but we won't. So this one now is 448, 1D 00448. It's a decision
3 dated 23 November, 1992, on the appointment of temporary director of Hamo
4 Cerkic company in Mostar, and we have in -- Alija Curic.
5 A. Alija Curic.
6 Q. Okay. No dilemma there. And -- and by the way, this company,
7 Hamo Cerkic, what does it do? It's a Muslim name, too, isn't it?
8 A. It was, well, a sewing company.
9 Q. Yes, but nonetheless --
10 A. Textiles. It was in the eastern part of town.
11 Q. Okay. But nonetheless --
12 A. And --
13 Q. But nonetheless, you would agree with me that she is a Muslim and
14 she is being appointed as the temporary director of a company, albeit on
15 the east side -- on the east side; correct? He, sorry. I don't know why
16 I assumed it was a female. Okay. All right.
17 Now, we --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- some of those appointments, and I just wanted to clear up a
20 couple of matters, if necessary. This one letter, I guess I'm troubled a
21 little bit, I have to tell you. I'm a little troubled with this P 00477.
22 The document that was shown to you --
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Karnavas, unfortunately,
24 it's time to break.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: We were a little bit late starting, so if I could
1 have three minutes and I'm finished. I'm finished, I promise.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, but three minutes.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Three Greek minutes, which are a little bit
4 longer than ...
5 Q. P 0477, as I understand it, was a document that -- that was --
6 that you were shown dated 14 September, 1992. This is a document that
7 appeared to be a copy or something that was -- yeah. It appears to be a
8 copy. It says here "prepis," and it didn't have a signature and that was
9 a Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic?
10 A. Hadziosmanovic.
11 Q. Okay. We'll get there. Now, when -- oh, "prepis," by the way,
12 because if we look at -- if we look at the version in B/C/S, "prepis,"
13 what does that mean? Does that copy or does it mean rewrite? Okay. I'll
14 show it to you. I'll show it to you. Sorry. Just look at it.
15 A. "Prepis," as far as I understand it, this was somebody that typed
16 out a document in the original, and that's why it says "prepis." And now
17 you would have to go to the administrative department in town to have a
18 stamp put on it so as to show that that copy is true to the original. So
19 it's a form of copy.
20 Q. Yes. Exactly --
21 A. Or --
22 Q. -- and you could not have described it better. In other words --
23 A. Certified copy.
24 Q. In other words it's not necessarily a copy, it's a rewrite. We
25 don't have in this document a stamp or signature, but it is your
1 understanding, sir -- it is your understanding that this was a document
2 that was provided to you - to you physically - by the gentleman whose name
3 is at the end, Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic. Yeah, Hadziosmanovic.
4 MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of the question, Your Honour. I
5 object to the form of the question, Your Honour. The witness did not say
6 it is a rewrite, he said it is a copy, and only Mr. Karnavas continues to
7 use the word it's a rewrite. The witness never said that. He said it's a
9 MR. KARNAVAS:
10 Q. Is a rewrite or is it a copy? Which of the two? A copy means it
11 was put on a copy machine and it was copied. Or was it retyped as in
12 rewritten or -- which of the two? To me it doesn't really matter, but
13 which of the two? And what does "prepis" mean actually?
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So what is your answer to this
15 question, Witness?
16 MR. KARNAVAS:
17 Q. Is it a copy or is it a rewrite? Perhaps -- let me solve the
18 dilemma. What does --
19 A. I am going to -- well, I told you what it meant. It's a copy when
20 you put it in a machine and you get a copy out. This is transcribed. You
21 type out a document as it is, as it stands, and later on it has to be
23 Q. All right.
24 A. So it's a certified copy or certified transcription, certified by
25 someone with a stamp. But I didn't receive this from Ismet
1 Hadziosmanovic. You might have misunderstood. We have this document, but
2 I did not get this document from Ismet Hadziosmanovic.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. So if you've understood it that way, then you've misunderstood.
5 Q. Well, I understood it the way it came out in the transcript. It
6 may be perhaps you misspoke or maybe we just misunderstood each other, but
7 just so there's no dilemma, I did see this in the transcript itself where
8 you said that it was provided to you, and in fact I have it here on page
9 2519 to -- page 2519, on 24 May, 2006, line 4: "Witness: I believe
10 that's correct. This is what I received from Ismet without a signature
11 whereas he sent it to various other addressees, letters with the
12 signature." You said that, did you not? Yes or no. Maybe you misspoke
13 but you said that because I'm sure our good translators would not have
14 made such an error. This is what you said. Yes or no.
15 A. I don't doubt the interpreters, but I got it not -- I got it from
16 the SDA service, not from Ismet himself.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. So that's it. And let me tell you that I took part in the
19 discussion. There's a point there when we wanted to incorporate something
20 into the last paragraph, and Ismet put that in. And on the basis of that
21 I can also say that the document is quite correct, because we asked Ismet
22 as a political representative to enable us to attend funerals, and that
23 has been incorporated into the document. So that tells me that it comes
24 from the office of Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic. So somebody brought it to me
25 from his office unsigned.
1 Q. Okay. All right. I think we have the complete answer on that.
2 Okay. And with that answer, sir, I want to thank you very, very much.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
4 And again, I appreciate your candour and your willingness to be
5 cross-examined. And I hope I didn't offend your feelings in any way.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, it is now 10 to 11.
8 For technical reasons we have to contact Mr. Murphy to put matters right
9 so we're going to take 30 minutes and reconvene at 11.20.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.51 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.26 a.m.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume. Can we deal
13 with the exhibit numbers, please. Yes, you may take the floor.
14 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to apologise on behalf of
15 Mr. Karnavas. He had to leave, but I'll request that the following
16 documents be tendered: 1D 00505, 1D 00472, 1D 00427, 1D 00428, 1D 00436,
17 1D 00439, 1D 00440, 1D 00462, 1D 00438, 1D 00382, 1D 00383, 1D 00501,
18 1D 00500, 1D 00499, 1D 00466, 1D 00 -- and 1D 00488.
19 I'd like to correct an exhibit number that was tendered yesterday.
20 1D 00498 is the number. That exhibit number should be 1D 00506. Thank
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I heard 506 and I see that it
23 says 5.000 -- I can see now the correct number.
24 Mr. Registrar, could we first deal with the correction of the
25 document 506, and then let's deal with the other documents.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. So as requested, the
2 previously admitted exhibit 1D 00498 is now registered as being 1D 00516
3 -- 506, I'm sorry.
4 The following exhibits are therefore tendered and admitted with
5 today's date: 1D 00505, 1D 00472, 1D 00427, 1D 00428, 1D 00436, 1D 00439,
6 1D 00440, 1D 00462, 1D 00438, 1D 00382, 1D 00383, 1D 00501, 1D 00500,
7 1D 00499, 1D 00466, 1D 00488. And this completes the list, thank you,
8 Mr. President.
9 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The last exhibit
10 should be 1D 00448.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, it's
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 8. Thank
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, what about 505? I think Mr. Karnavas
16 said he also wanted to introduce that. This is the booklet on the -- I
17 have not seen it right now, but maybe I have made a mistake.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's fine. That's fine.
19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I found it. I found it. I apologise.
20 MS. TOMANOVIC: Okay.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll continue. Ms. Alaburic.
22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:
24 Q. Mr. -- Mufti Smajkic, my name is Vesna Alaburic, I'm a lawyer from
25 Zagreb and I'm representing Mr. Petkovic.
1 I first want to put some questions to you to clarify certain
2 subjects that have to do with the Muslim or Bosniak people. So let's talk
3 about this for five minutes, if we may.
4 Can you inform the Chamber and us as to when the Muslims were
5 recognised as a people in the former Yugoslavia?
6 A. In 1970.
7 Q. In the first constitutional amendments introduced in 1971, was
8 this also verified in the constitution?
9 A. Yes. In 1974 that was probably the case.
10 Q. Could you tell me with regard to the 1974 constitution in the
11 former Yugoslavia -- can we find in that constitution Muslims with a
12 capital M and muslims with a small M? Muslims with a capital M represent
13 a people, whereas muslims with a small M represents people of the Islam
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. As of that time, Muslims with a capital M, that is to say the
17 Muslim people, what we call the Bosniaks today, can such Muslims be
18 atheists, Christians, Buddhists or members of any other faith?
19 A. Muslims with a capital M can be whatever they want to be.
20 Q. That's right, and tell me, as of that time, muslims with a small
21 M, could such a muslim be a Muslim with a capital M but also someone who
22 is a Croat or an American, a Brazilian, or a member of any other nation?
23 A. Yes, that's possible.
24 Q. That's possible. Would you agree with me that the term "Bosnian"
25 is in fact a term that is common to Muslims with a capital M, that is to
1 say to Bosniaks, and to Serbs, Croats, and members of all other ethnic
2 groups or those who haven't declared that they are members of another
3 ethnic group but who live in the territory of Bosnia?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Would you agree with me that it's therefore logical to say that
6 Croats in Bosnia were against identifying the term "Bosnia" and "Bosnian"
7 with the term "Muslim" or "Bosniak"?
8 A. Well, yes. If -- if these terms were identified, they were said
9 to be identical, yes, you'd be right.
10 Q. Thank you. When you mentioned the Muslims in your public
11 announcements and your texts and so on, are you referring to Muslims with
12 a capital M or a small M?
13 A. Well, we should be consistent in the use of terminology since
14 misunderstandings could arise. We're referring to the religion.
15 Q. You're referring to their faith, to believers.
16 A. Yes. Especially now, since 1993, the Bosniak nationality has been
18 Q. I just wanted to make sure that we were clear about the terms we
19 were using when it came to discussing other subjects.
20 In your testimony, which directly concerns my client, and in
21 relation to Prosecution Exhibit P 02587 -- could we have this on the
22 screen, please.
23 THE INTERPRETER: P 02586, interpreter's correction.
24 This is your request to Mr. Petkovic and Topic dated the 31st of
25 May, 1993, and in that request you wanted peace in order to celebrate
1 Bajram. Do you remember that?
2 A. I don't have it before me but I'm familiar with the contents.
3 Q. The witness can remember the document, so it's not necessary to
4 have it on the screen, but here we have it, so we can continue. That's
5 not the document. I have a different document P 022586 -- P 02586, but
6 since the witness knows what document is in question, we can continue.
7 With regard to that request, you said that the cease-fire wasn't
8 allowed, and your testimony as recorded in the transcript dated the 24th
9 of May, on page 134, line 19. With regard to that testimony, could we
10 show the witness the document 4D 00016. We also have a copy of that
11 document for our usher, who is very busy today. Yes, we'll have the
12 digital version on the screen in a minute.
13 Sir, could we have a look at this document. Could you tell us
14 what the contents of this document are, who issued the document, when, and
15 who was it forwarded to? Well, let's simplify this. Would you agree that
16 the request to Mr. Petkovic and Mr. Topic was sent by you on the 31st of
17 May, 1993?
18 A. Yes, I know that.
19 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that on that same day General
20 Milivoj Petkovic issued an order requesting that the cease-fire be
21 respected? And you can see that document before you now. Would you agree
22 with me that that's what this document that you have before you is about?
23 A. I didn't receive a document of any kind, and there was no
24 cease-fire. This is the first time I've seen this.
25 Q. We'll get to that. It's quite clear that you didn't receive the
1 document, and it doesn't even say that it was forwarded to you here.
2 Would you agree with me if I said that the person to whom this
3 document was addressed can be seen in the upper right part of the
4 document, where it says "To the commander," and then we have the
5 abbreviation OZ JIH, which means the operative zone of south-east
7 A. I can't identify or recognise anything here in the stamp.
8 Q. That's not in the stamp. It's not the stamp I'm talking about.
9 You know how these letters look. In the right-hand corner you can see the
10 person who issued the document, and then on the left you have certain
11 identifying marks, then you have the date, the contents of the document,
12 and then to the right you can see the person that the document is
13 forwarded to.
14 A. Yes, I can see that.
15 Q. It says "To the commander of the operative zone." Let's have a
16 look at the contents of the document, and would you agree that under
17 number 1 my client issued an order to all HVO units according to which
18 they should fully respect the cease-fire during the Kurban Bajram Muslim
19 holiday from the 1st of June to the 4th of June, 1993; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that's what it says in the document.
21 Q. Under item 2 does it say that commanders at all levels have the
22 obligation of forwarding this order to their units?
23 A. That's what it says.
24 Q. Would you agree with me that under item 3 it says that the
25 commander of the operative zone shall contact the commander of the
1 commander of the 1st Corps, inform him of the order issue -- issued and
2 request that his units also contribute to full peace? Is that what it
4 A. Yes, that's what it says under item 3.
5 Q. In the lower part of the document -- and could we scroll down,
6 please, in order to see the lower part of the document. And would you
7 agree with me if I said that you can now see on the screen that it says
8 that on the same day the commander of the operative zone of south-east
9 Herzegovina, Milenko Lasic, forwarded this order to his units so that they
10 could implement the order? Is that what the document says?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Thank you. You told us that no cease-fire was implemented after
13 all. So could the usher please place the following document on the ELMO:
14 The second page of document 4D 00015. This document is not available in
15 digital form because we don't yet have the translation of the transcript
16 from the session of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The session
17 concerned is the 233rd. It was held on the 29th of December, 1993, and at
18 that session there were discussions of a truce, of a cease-fire, among
19 other things, and there's a very significant statement made by General
20 Stjepan Siber too.
21 Sir, General Stjepan Siber, is this a name you're familiar with?
22 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that name.
23 Q. Can you tell us who this person is.
24 A. This person is a general of the ABiH, of the Bosnian-Herzegovinian
1 Q. Did he have a command function, a command role in the ABiH in the
2 Main Staff?
3 A. As far as I know, yes, he did.
4 Q. I do apologise, but could we have the second page of that document
5 placed on the ELMO. 84 is the number. We're interested in the lower part
6 of the page of the session of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina in
7 December, 1993. Mr. Kljujic, when discussing how to implement peace and
8 put an end to the offensives said, "The only solution, Mr. Izetbegovic, is
9 for us to stop the offensive by the 18th until there are new
10 negotiations," and Stjepan Siber then answered: "Let me comment on the
11 situation, with your permission. First of all, there are objections when
12 cease-fires are signed, et cetera. We issue orders to our units.
13 However, the orders are forwarded to the battalions, companies, and almost
14 to each and every soldier, but believe me -" I'm waiting for the
15 translation - "but believe me, the battlefield is so wide that you can
16 always find someone who opens fire. I won't say on the other side, but on
17 our side too. You always come across someone, or there is always someone
18 who opens fire. In many places such as Mostar, you have a man every 30
19 metres, and there is always someone."
20 Sir, would you agree with me if I said that in order to implement
21 the decision, the agreement on having a cease-fire it's necessary for both
22 parties to demonstrate goodwill? And if the conflict continues, it's not
23 possible to accuse only one side.
24 A. That's how it should be.
25 Q. Thank you. I would now like to inform our Chamber of some of your
1 statements and to comment on those statements. There was some
2 controversial reactions to the statements you made in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
3 and I would like to refer to these statements.
4 Could we have the following document on the screen: 4D 00029.
5 Yes, we have it now.
6 This is a text from the index site, and it says in the title
7 "Anti-Semitic and anti-Christian message." So the title of the text is as
8 follows. You can see this in the fourth line of the document. It says:
9 "Mostar -- the Mostar mufti issued anti-Semitic and anti-Christian
10 messages." And then it reads as follows: "In the course of a mass for
11 the Muslim Bajram, there was a speech and there was a transcript relayed
12 by the Herzegovina newspapers, and in that speech the Mostar mufti
13 seriously accused -- made serious accusations against the Jews for what
14 was happening in Jerusalem." And then it says: "Man, have a look at
15 Jerusalem now. What's happening in Jerusalem now? Because there are Jews
16 there, and because Muslims are not managing things, are not in power. For
17 100 years, during the Crusades, Christians were in power and people were
18 up to their knees in blood -- were in blood up to their knees. It's only
19 possible for there to be peace there once Muslims are in power, because
20 other people are incapable of governing. They don't know the right
21 measure, and they are unable to act in a tolerant and cultural manner."
22 Sir, is this a statement that you made?
23 A. This is a free interpretation.
24 Q. But basically it's correct.
25 A. With your permission --
1 Q. We'll comment on this. You can comment on this later on. We'll
2 see other comments.
3 A. I'm not avoiding this, I'd just like to say that this was called
4 anti-Semitic, et cetera, yes, but this was an arbitrary qualification.
5 Q. What's important is that your words have been conveyed correctly.
6 A. Well, on the whole, yes. The essence has been conveyed correctly.
7 Q. And then the text reads as follows: You asked for a similar state
8 in Mostar. You said that the town and the Neretva would only be
9 appropriate for everyone if the Muslims were in power. And then allow me
10 to read what you said. You said: "We have been the hosts in this town
11 for 450 years. Everyone lived comfortably. Restructuring things, what
12 does this mean? It means that -- it means that of these fine hosts who
13 gave everyone a lot of liberty and who allowed everyone to express him or
14 herself how he wanted, it means that we should allow someone who was
15 setting fire to buildings the other day should have domination."
16 Mr. Smajkic, is this what you said?
17 A. Yes. Although there are certain nuances here, but yes, that's the
18 essence of what I said.
19 Q. Thank you very much. And there's another statement that you made.
20 Let's see if it's been faithfully conveyed. It has to do with you
21 objecting to the construction of Catholic religious buildings, and you
22 said, and I quote: "Can you see that accusatory cross up on the Hum hill?
23 Shall we go back to 1991? Take that from over there, but who will do
24 that? They're already preparing to construct a huge church."
25 Is this correct? Is this what you said?
1 A. Well, not a hundred per cent, but the essence is correct.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know how your statements were
3 received by the public and in general in Bosnia-Herzegovina? Are you
4 aware of the fact that the statements that you gave were used as examples
5 of speech full of hatred in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
6 A. Well, that's not full of hatred.
7 Q. Well, what such speech is like is a matter we could discuss at
8 length. But could we show the document 4D 00032 to the witness. This is
9 something drafted by Mr. Dusan Babic. It's called "The Language of Hate."
10 A phenomenological and typological demonstration of speech characteristic.
11 In this territory, it was published in the Regional Bulletin for the
12 Promotion of Culture and Minority Rights and Inter-ethnic Tolerance. It
13 was published on the 15th of August, 2004. Let's show the witness page 6
14 the last paragraph, and on page 7 the first paragraph.
15 While we're waiting for the text to appear, I'll read for you a
16 part of it, and you will be able to follow. The text is as follows:
17 "Paradoxically as it may sound, the religious leaders are politically
18 more exposed than the politicians are themselves, this being the result of
19 the close conjunction between politics and religion. I need not even
20 stress how deleterious this is to any modern state, community, especially
21 if it is a multinational and multi-confessional one as the BH is."
22 Next page, please. The text goes on to read: "The Mostar mufti
23 Efendi Smajkic will remain remembered by his recent xenophobic statement
24 to the effect that only the Muslims were capable of ruling the city on the
25 Neretva, just as the Osmanlije managed to successfully rule Jerusalem for
1 centuries. Such a statement is profoundly anti-Bosnian, because it is a
2 real gift in the lap of and argument given into the hands of the
3 extremists from the ranks of the two other peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina."
4 Tell us, Mr. Smajkic, did you -- had you read this text? Did you
5 know about it?
6 A. No, I didn't know about this text, but I denied it in both
7 Croatian papers and different other papers.
8 Q. What sort of a denial?
9 A. To -- of some statements regarding my statements, in respect of my
11 Q. But you did say that these statements were -- faithfully reflected
12 your statements otherwise, so I can conclude that this retraction that you
13 had published referred to some other statements and not these.
14 A. No. Exactly these. There were several papers in Croatia that
15 sent me a query concerning these statements.
16 Q. Mr. Smajkic, let us just clarify. When I asked you about the
17 quotation of your statement in re of Jerusalem, you said that it was
18 faithful, and the same thing also regarding your statement in Mostar. So
19 if these statements are basically correct and truthful, then by the logic
20 of things, you -- there was nothing to deny or retract.
21 A. There was, and how.
22 Q. But obviously one usually seeks to retract things that are
23 considered to be untrue.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have two types of questions
25 and then you are asking for an interpretation. You firstly asked whether
1 he recognises the statements that he made, and that is in document -- the
2 first document, number 29. He said that, yes, he made such statements.
3 He didn't deny that. And then you showed him a document, and you
4 mentioned two sentences in the document. It's document 32 that you
5 referred to, and you asked him whether that is what he stated. He said
6 no. He denied that, because what you showed to him were things that had
7 been written by journalists. He didn't write that. And you then said,
8 well, this is what it says. So it's necessary to make a distinction.
9 It's necessary to make a distinction between what he said and what others
10 said about him. So ask him to make this distinction, because otherwise it
11 will be impossible for everyone else to follow things. I'm following
12 things, but those who are listening to us might not be able to.
13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] My view among us who heard these --
14 this conversation in B/C/S, there is no misunderstanding. I cannot say
15 anything about the interpretation into French, because I can't speak or
16 understand French, and I wasn't able to control the translation into
17 English well, but basically what we talked about was in regard of document
18 29, when I was quoting the quotations of the alleged statements of the
19 mufti, the question was whether these were his statements that had been
20 basically faithfully conveyed, and the response he gave in regard to all
21 the three quotations under document 29 was given in the affirmative. Let
22 me just explain so that -- these were not the statements of this author
23 but conveyed statements. I just wanted us to clarify that the journalist
24 had conveyed them correctly and that basically these were indeed the
25 mufti's statements.
1 And now we come to our topic. I should like to ask how this
2 disclaimer of yours can refer to statements that the witness himself said
3 were his and basically had been conveyed faithfully as his statements.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I give you an answer to that?
5 You said a while ago that if we wanted a joint life, co-existence, that
6 both sides to the conflict had to see to it that there should be no
7 violation of the truce as far as the war is concerned; and as regards
8 interpersonal relations, also of course they had to promote them on both
9 sides. So I gave the example of co-existence in Jerusalem, and that is
10 true. And I still assert that while the Muslims were in charge of
11 Jerusalem as a multi-confessional place, sacrosanct place of the Jews, the
12 Christians, and the Muslims, everybody had free access and could freely
13 practice their religious convictions there, and that is what I stated and
14 that is true. During the Crusades that was not possible and I said so.
15 So to make a long story short, today when both the Christians and
16 the Muslims are denied the right to get into Jerusalem and to do what is
17 enjoined upon them to do by their respective religions, they are
18 jeopardised in that sense. So that is the essence, that is the thread of
19 my argument. Co-existence in Islam is a plank of Islam. It is a religion
20 of co-existence and peace.
21 As regards the cross on the Hum in Mostar, that is not only my own
22 position. This is -- it is pointless to say -- it is senseless to say
23 that as a religious leader I am against the cross or against any place of
24 worship, but if you erect a gigantic cross on the Mount Hum, on the hill
25 of Hum above the city of Mostar, which is a multi-confessional and
1 multi-religious and multi-ethnic milieu, that is actually a message by the
2 Croatian people to say that Mostar is Croatian.
3 Q. We shall come to that during our further discussion, and let us
4 absolve this disclaimer theme in this way: Does this statement regarding
5 the disclaimer actually refer to the reactions, the comments made in
6 respect of your statements?
7 A. Yes. I had it published in the Jutarnji List, the morning paper.
8 I cannot recall it exactly now. I didn't know that you would be asking me
9 this question, but several people at the desk offices of the paper
10 actually -- actually contacted me in respect of these few pages on the
11 internet, the intention of which was to actually portray me as an
12 anti-Semitic, and they asked me for a response and I gave them my
13 interpretation in that respect and was well as in respect of Mostar. If
14 you will allow me --
15 Q. No let us follow an order and we'll come to that in due time.
16 Tell me, did you already the past few years portray yourself in
17 public as a person -- as the sole person since the time of the Washington
18 and Dayton Accords that actually advocated the protection of the places of
19 worship of Bosniaks in Mostar and the vicinity?
20 A. Yes, I did, but not only me.
21 Q. What -- did you portray yourself as the only person who advocated
22 these things?
23 A. Perhaps I hold a position that I could -- that put me in a
24 position to be able to react in that way more often.
25 Q. But did you portray yourself as the sole person?
1 A. Possibly. Possibly. When you find yourself in a position when
2 other people are silent and certain political influential factors not
3 saying anything, you have to --
4 Q. But did you portray yourself --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Will the speakers please slow down and not
7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So did you project yourself as the only one fighting for the
9 protection of the place of worship and the human rights of Bosniaks in
10 Bosnia and Herzegovina in an open letter or, rather, a reaction which was
11 published in the papers where you said -- where you reacted, rather, to
12 the text which was called "An Open Letter to the Mostar Mufti"?
13 A. I do not have the text.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Will counsel please not overlap.
15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Will the witness please show document 4D 0030 in which you, at the
17 beginning of the third paragraph, say, and I quote: "After the Washington
18 and Dayton Accords, I was the only one who got up and stood up in defence
19 and protection of places of worship and overall human rights of Bosniaks
20 in Mostar and in Herzegovina."
21 Now, looking at this text of your own reaction, can you confirm
22 that this was indeed your own reaction on the dates in question?
23 A. I am concealing nothing, believe you me. The Dani, the Dani
24 paper, before this, actually published an open -- an open letter.
25 Q. Just confirm this. Is this so or not?
1 A. Yes, but they criticised the Bosniaks and the mufti, and so I
2 raised my voice against the erection of a titanic cross on the Hum.
3 Q. I am not denying that you had justification to react. I'm just
4 asking you how you portrayed yourself to the public in your reaction. If
5 you do confirm that this was indeed your reaction, we shall then move on
6 to a different topic, a topic which refers to the establishment of the
7 Muslim army.
8 Can document -- a document we've already seen in the
9 examination-in-chief stage, the number being D 00374, can it be shown to
10 the witness, please. And will you just look at it to jog your memory.
11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] To use this time until this is
12 displayed on the screen, can I just say what I'm being warned of by my
13 colleagues; that it was not published. This was a reaction of the witness
14 which was published in the publication the magazine Dani.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the interpreter did not get it correctly
16 because you overlapped. Thank you.
17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So it's P 00374. This is a resolution of the Muslims of
19 Herzegovina, which you are quite familiar with, but let us look at the
20 text in order to reproduce it as faithfully as possible. Can we see item
21 V on page 2, please.
22 Tell us, Mufti, you were actively involved in the drawing of this
23 resolution; is that so?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Item V, paragraph 1, you, in a nutshell, call upon all able-bodied
1 Muslims to join in the defence of the homeland. Is that so?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I quote item II: "We call upon the defenders from the ranks of
4 the Muslims to all rally under the B and H standard and for their emblem
5 to be the coat of arms with the golden lilies."
6 Can you tell us if in item I you speak about Muslims, i.e.,
7 citizens of a Muslim -- of the Muslim nation whom you are calling upon to
8 join the army to fight for the homeland, to whom does this second part
9 refer? Who are these defenders from among the ranks of the Muslims?
10 A. Well, there were other people there were not involved. I would
11 have to think.
12 Q. Think. Perhaps I can be of some assistance. It is logical to
13 conclude that if the first paragraph refers to Muslims who are not as yet
14 fighters and upon whom you are calling to join the B and H army, it is
15 logical that paragraph II refers to someone who is already within an army
16 but is not in the BH army, and you are inviting these others to step out
17 from that other army and rally under the B and H standard. Would such a
18 conclusion on my part be correct?
19 A. Well, not perhaps fully, because -- and I shall be quite frank --
20 this is -- this was in August, 1992, as far as I remember, but it was the
21 preference of a certain state of facts, so to speak.
22 Q. Namely to have as many Muslims possible -- as possible move from
23 the HVO into the B and H army?
24 A. Under the flag of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 Q. Okay. We'll come to that.
1 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please put document
2 4D 00033 on the ELMO and -- on the ELMO, because we as yet do not have
3 integral translations of these documents, still have not put them in
4 e-court. Ms. Usher, [Previous translation continues] ... [In English]
5 documents. Last four documents.
6 Q. [No interpretation]. This is an assessment of the security
7 situation which was compiled on the 16th of April, 1993, of the -- by the
8 security chief of the 42nd Mountain Brigade of the 4th Corps, and that
9 head of security is Mario Huso. And I should like to draw your attention
10 to just one part of this assessment.
11 Does the third line from the bottom, which says that among the
12 measures which are to be undertaken, all Muslims, members of the HVO, are
13 to be called upon to put themselves on the side to align with their own
15 Can we then show to the witness the next document.
16 A. Excuse me. The document -- the date?
17 Q. 16th of April, 1993. 1993.
18 A. 1993.
19 Q. Yes.
20 MR. SCOTT: I apologise, Your Honour. I've been on my feet and
21 I'm not trying to interrupt but only a technical correction, I believe. I
22 was having some difficulty a few moments ago following the document, the
23 reference to Exhibit P 00374. At least how it came across in the English
24 transcript -- I don't know what counsel was saying in her language,
25 unfortunately, but at least on the English transcript, was making
1 references to Article II, and the only language that I was able to find
2 seemed to be in Article V. I'd just like the transcript to be corrected
3 to reflect that. Thank you.
4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Colleague Scott, would you be so
5 kind as to tell me what particular page and line are you referring to?
6 The resolution.
7 MR. SCOTT: I'm referring to the resolution of the Muslims of
8 Herzegovina, Exhibit P 00374. In Article -- you were referring -- you
9 were quoting language a moment ago, if I understood you correctly, "We
10 call on all Muslims fit for military service and rallying to the Muslim
11 cause," et cetera, and unless I missed it, the only place I see that
12 particular language was in Article V, immediately under the heading
13 Article V. I did not see that language in Article II, which was the
14 reference given in the transcript.
15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to point V of the
16 resolution of the Muslims of Herzegovina, and that was an exhibit admitted
17 under number P 00374. 000374. And it was point V. And the witness
18 referred to that point and we read it out.
19 Q. Now, we've seen the first document, which says that among the
20 measures that should be undertaken in the forthcoming period is to send
21 all Muslim -- call upon all Muslims, members of the HVO, to stand on the
22 side of their own people.
23 A. I said the 16th of April, 1993.
24 Q. Yes, that's right, the 16th of April.
25 Now I'd like to have a look at the next document, and the number
1 of that document is 34, dated the 18th of April. The author is the same.
2 Once again, it is a proposal for security measures, and it says, among
3 other things, the following -- once again, the third bullet point from the
4 stop: "To establish cooperation with our fighters in the HVO and indicate
5 the seriousness of the situation to them."
6 Now, I'd like the next document to be shown the witness, which is
7 number 35. And it is a document dated the 18th of April, 1993. It is an
8 order, and I'd like us to turn to the next page of that order.
9 As I was saying, it is an order by the commander Bajro Pizovic, in
10 which in the highlighted portion, the portion highlighted in yellow, it
11 says that the organ for moral guidance and morale, IPD and VP, will
12 compile a plan for informing the populace of the composition of the
13 brigades, the population on the territory of Mostar municipality, Capljina
14 and Stolac, and Muslim soldiers who are located in HVO units in the
15 aforementioned municipalities.
16 And now the final document for the time being on that topic, and
17 that is document number 36. It is a report by the commander of the 4th
18 Corps. Arif Pasalic is his name, and it is dated the 2nd of May, 1993.
19 May we see the lower portion of that document. We're interested in the
20 lower portion. Scroll down, please. It is highlighted in yellow once
22 It is a report on the activities that were implemented, and I
23 quote: "Tying up with our people in the HVO."
24 May I have the next side of that same document, please, the next
1 In the upper portion, once again highlighted in yellow, it says,
2 and I quote: "All the people from the HVO of Capljina have the task of
3 taking control of the village of Tasovcici and the Capljina bridge and not
4 allow forces to come in from the direction of Metkovic."
5 And then the other bullet point highlighted says: "To take
6 control of the town of Stolac with our men in the HVO."
7 Now, my next question to you, Mr. Smajkic, is this: We have now
8 looked at four documents related to what the BH army is doing in order to
9 tie in and link up and work in concert with the Muslims in the HVO.
10 Now, would it be right for me to conclude that those activities
11 were the result of the appeal from the resolution of the Muslims of
13 A. No.
14 Q. Tell us why not.
15 A. It isn't for the simple reason that I asked you what the date was,
16 and the 15th of April is the second ultimatum posed by the Croatian
17 Defence Council to the Muslims or, rather, so that the Bosniaks and BH
18 army should be resubordinated and that -- to the HVO, attached to the HVO,
19 or they will be forcefully disarmed.
20 Now, in the field incidents had already taken place, both on the
21 18th and 19th. Our commander was taken prisoner. I'm not perhaps the
22 right person and competent enough to talk about this but I would like to
23 give you this information because I was down there at that time and I know
24 that there was very high tension there at the time, and of course we
25 expected an attack, so these were measures to prevent what happened from
2 Q. Now, Mr. Smajkic, you're talking about an ultimatum again of the
3 15th of April, you've mentioned an ultimatum of the 15th of April, 1993,
4 once again, but you haven't provided the Prosecution, neither has the
5 Prosecution provided us, with any document whatsoever in which we would
6 see this ultimatum, which would contain this ultimatum. So I'm asking you
7 now have you ever seen a document which would include something that
8 resembles an ultimatum with the date of the 15th of April, 1993, as you
9 have been mentioning?
10 A. Well, I assume you know about the 15th of January, 1993, that
11 ultimatum. I assume you know that.
12 Q. The 15th of January? Well, I don't know whether we agree about
13 how to refer to the document. I know of a document of the 15th of
14 January, but I don't know the document you mention, an ultimatum you
15 mention of the 15th of April, 1993, so please help us out. Help the Trial
16 Chamber out and us out.
17 A. Yes, I'll be happy to do so. I'll be happy to assist the Trial
18 Chamber and you yourself. We in Mostar on the 15th of April, 1993, on the
19 day -- or, rather, 15th of April is the day the army of the Republic of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina was established. So on that day, in view of the
21 tensions of relations, the HVO had a show of might in the eastern part of
22 town, and exactly on the 15th of April it had a parade, a large-scale
23 parade with tanks and mortars and vehicles carrying --
24 Q. Mr. Smajkic, can we concentrate on the document concerning the
25 ultimatum. When you mention the date the 15th of April, is that the date
1 when this alleged document was made public?
2 A. No. It was when the expiry date was.
3 Q. But when was it published?
4 A. That's a good question. In the western part of town I had my
5 office, and in trying to save my head, save my life, all my documents
6 remained in the western part of town.
7 Q. Have you ever seen a document of that kind?
8 A. I was shown such a document. It was shown to me, but as I say, my
9 entire archive was left in the western part of town.
10 Q. Mr. Smajkic we don't have a document of that kind in this binder
11 and the Prosecutor would have been duty-bound to provide us with all the
12 documents concerned with the charges made against our clients. We don't
13 have that document. So it's very interesting to know that you can say
14 with certainty that a document of that kind existed.
15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, unfortunately, I think Ms. Alaburic has
16 misstated the situation. As the president -- as Your Honour the President
17 has frequently reminded us, there are something like 9.000 documents in
18 this case. I assure the Chamber as an officer of the Court that there are
19 indeed a number of documents which reflect the existence of this ultimatum
20 but they weren't used with this particular witness because he did not have
21 -- he did not actually have one in his possession at the time, as he just
22 told us a moment ago. The fact that the Prosecution has not put any one
23 particular document out of 9.900 documents to a particular witness has no
24 particular significance unless this particular witness has nothing to say
25 about it. But counsel knows well, or she should know if she's reviewed
1 the exhibit list which she's had since January, that indeed there are
2 documents that put -- that establish this ultimatum. Thank you.
3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps just a clarification to
4 Mr. Scott.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Alaburic --
6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but perhaps we're
7 talking about January.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] May I intervene, Counsel?
9 You've raised a problem. You indicated, with respect to this 15th of
10 April document, that it doesn't exist. That's what you suggested to the
11 witness. So I draw the conclusion that that document does not in fact
12 exist, whereas the Prosecutor was on his feet and said there is a document
13 on the list.
14 Now, as counsel, you must have known about the list and known
15 what's on it, on the list. So you can't say that the document doesn't
16 exist if it's on the list you've received. I don't understand your
17 position. Perhaps you'll explain yourself.
18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll be happy to do so. Thank
20 My learned colleague Mr. Scott, in his last sentence when he just
21 reacted a moment ago, he confirmed the existence of a document that can be
22 considered to be an ultimatum dated January, 1993. Mr. Scott did not say
23 that there was such a document dated April, 1993. He said that documents
24 existed which refer to alleged ultimatum from 1993. I carefully looked at
25 all the documents that we were provided with, and of course there can be
1 oversights. I wouldn't go so far as to say that something did not exist
2 if we hadn't given our all to determine whether it did or didn't, and I
3 can say with certainty that there is no document that can be called an
4 ultimatum and which relates to the 15th of April, 1993.
5 Now, in view of the fact that the witness has just told us that he
6 has seen such a document, I simply wanted to clarify with him whether he
7 had actually seen the document. Perhaps he had heard about it or seen
8 newspaper articles and what this is all about.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're dealing with the 15th of
10 April. I was in the western section, I was in the office there until the
11 8th of May, which means 23 more days, 23 days after that. So if it
12 exists, it's not up to me to find it, to find the document. The documents
13 I had I handed over, those that were in my briefcase.
14 Q. It wasn't my intention to accuse you of anything. I just wanted
15 to know whether perhaps the document existed even if we didn't have it.
16 But my time is drawing to a close, and I would like to ask you just one
17 more question linked to the resolution when you yourself said that you
18 called upon people to stand under the banner or the emblem of
20 Can you describe to us what the coat of arms of Bosnia-Herzegovina
21 looked like at that time in the spring of 1993?
22 A. Well, Bosnia-Herzegovina was an internationally recognised state.
23 Q. Yes, absolutely. What did its coat of arms look like?
24 A. It had the lily.
25 Q. And is that the coat of arms of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina
1 today or just one entity in that state?
2 A. It is a coat of arms of the state itself.
3 Q. You mean the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. Well, the flag's different, but the coat of arms basically
5 remained the same with just some slight modifications.
6 Q. Are you referring to the Bosnia-Herzegovina state or are you
7 speaking about the lily emblem in the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. Yes, the federation, the entity.
9 Q. Tell us whether the lily exists in the entity and in the coat of
10 arms of the entity of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that there is a chequerboard
11 -- as the chequerboard stands as the coat of arms of the Croats?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no
14 further questions.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, Ms. Alaburic,
16 the exhibits. Would you like to tender them?
17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I do apologise, Your Honour.
18 Just one moment, if I may. In the meantime, I seem to have mixed up my
19 papers here. Ah, here it is.
20 I'd like to have the following exhibits admitted into evidence:
21 4D 00016, 4D 00029, 4D 00030, 4D 00031, and 4D 00032. I would also like
22 the following to be marked for identification before they are tendered
23 later on: 4D 00015, 4D 00033, 4D 00034, 4D 00035, and 4D 00036.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar.
25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, thank you very much.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. The following exhibits
3 are therefore tendered and admitted as full-fledged exhibits: 4D 0016,
4 4D 00029. I repeat for the record the first one: 4D 00016, yes.
5 4D 00029, 4D 00030, 4D 00031, 4D 00032.
6 The following five exhibits are marked for identification with
7 today's date as tendering date: 4D 00015, 4D 00033, 4D 00034, 4D 00035,
8 4D 00036. These are marked for identification pending translation. Thank
9 you very much.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's perfect.
11 Now, on the basis of my mathematics, we have had four counsel
12 conducting the cross-examination. We have Mr. Jonjic left and
13 Mr. Ibrisimovic. Now, as far as time is concerned, I'd like to know how
14 long each one of you intend to take.
15 Counsel Jonjic, how much time do you need?
16 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have
17 consulted my colleague Mr. Ibrisimovic, and I think that by the end of
18 this session - and we have 15 to 20 minutes more of this session, of this
19 sitting; is that right? - we'd be finished during the next session. But I
20 have to add that I also spoke to Mr. Coric, and he might require several
21 minutes for a few questions to Mr. Smajkic. We're not quite certain
22 whether he'll wish to do so at this point. Would you like me to continue
23 now or are we going to take a break?
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So there are two
25 possibilities. We're either going to continue straight away. In that
1 case, that will be around 1.00. Now, I'm sure Mr. Scott will have
2 additional questions to ask. Yes, he will certainly.
3 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes at the
4 most. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think the best
6 course to take would be to take a break now because it's 12.30. This will
7 give a chance for us to have a rest and reconvene at 2.00 p.m., and we'll
8 manage to finish ahead of time, I think, anyway, but anyway the meeting is
9 adjourned until 2.00 p.m.
10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Jonjic, you may take the
14 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
15 discussed about how to divide the remaining time among ourselves.
16 According to Defence for Mr. Pusic, Mr. Ibrisimovic won't have any
17 questions, but Mr. Coric and Mr. Praljak said that they would like about
18 15 minutes each. So I'd be grateful if the Chamber could tell me how much
19 time I have remaining at my disposal so that I can organise myself.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How much time did you plan to
21 use up?
22 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as you can see from
23 the binder that I have here, there are 30 documents that I wanted to show
24 to the witness, 30 documents I wanted to ask the witness about. I don't
25 know whether that will be possible.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have 30 documents that I
2 do not have. I apologise. They've just been provided to me. So you have
3 30 documents. Given your professional skills that you have demonstrated
4 so far, I believe you can get through them very rapidly. Please go ahead.
5 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Jonjic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Smajkic. My name is Tomislav
8 Jonjic, and I have a series of questions that I would like to put to you
9 on behalf of Mr. Coric.
10 A. Good day.
11 Q. Given your testimony over a one-and-a-half-day period when
12 examined by the Prosecution, and you've been now cross-examined for a day
13 -- just over a day by the Defence, I think you would agree that since
14 September, 1991, Mostar was in fact an occupied town.
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. In April, 1992, the JNA launched very open attacks, together with
17 other forces that had joined it.
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Mr. Smajkic, does the name Suad Cupina mean anything to you? I'll
20 repeat the name for the sake of the transcript. Yes, it's been correctly
21 transcribed. Suad Cupina, does this name mean anything?
22 A. Yes, I know the person.
23 Q. Would you agree with me that Mr. Cupina was one of the main
24 individuals responsible for the organisation of the ABiH in Mostar and he
25 was the first commander of the Mostar Independent Battalion?
1 A. Yes, that's the position he held.
2 Q. Thank you very much. You undoubtedly know that recently
3 Mr. Cupina published a book entitled "Betrayal and Defence of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina from 1991 to 1995."
5 A. Yes, I know that.
6 Q. You reviewed the book?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Your review was at least partially published in that book as part
9 of that book.
10 A. Yes, part of my review is included in the book.
11 Q. You praised the book extensively. You said it was an excellent
12 and reliable source of information for the history of the pre-war and
13 wartime events in Mostar and its surroundings.
14 A. Yes, that's what I said.
15 Q. And today, would you still praise that book? You have no
16 objections to raise with regard to the contents of the book?
17 A. I don't want to go into the details, but on the whole -- well,
18 it's the author who wrote the book, but I like the substance of the book,
19 the essence of the book.
20 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the following document:
21 5D 01113. Could the registry find this document. It's an excerpt. I
22 apologise. The first number was the correct one after all: 1113. It's
23 an excerpt from Mr. Cupina's book. We should have it on the screen. Yes,
24 there it is. Could we have a look at the following page.
25 Q. Mr. Smajkic, why am I showing you this excerpt from the book?
1 Well, because you spoke about the problems with regard to establishing the
2 HVO. Here we have a copy of pages 460 and 461 in the book, and in the
3 last paragraph Mr. Cupina describes how on the 5th of April, 1992,
4 together with the SDA leadership Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic and Zijad
5 Demirovic, they met Mate Boban in Grude and they also met Brano Kvesic
6 there. And then in the last paragraph on this page it says Mr. Cupina in
7 fact describes how they were to appoint units the purpose of which was to
8 defend Mostar. They were supposed to designate such units. And then
9 Boban issued an ultimatum. That's what Cupina says. Could we have a look
10 at the following page. He said: "Let Sarajevo decide within a week
11 whether the joint defence of Mostar will be called the Muslim-Croat
12 Defence Council or the reverse."
13 Is that correct, Mr. Smajkic? That's what it says in the book.
14 A. Yes, that's what it says. I can read that out.
15 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's correct. A few days ago, in response to
16 questions put to you by Mr. Stojic's Defence team, you informed the
17 Chamber of some HVO documents, and in the heading of those documents it
18 was not possible to see the symbol of the Republic of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina. Isn't that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry now show us the
22 following document: 5D 1114. 1114.
23 While we are waiting for the document --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1104.
25 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
1 Q. Mr. Smajkic, in some HVO documents there were -- were no symbols
2 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you said that revealed the
3 real intentions of the Croats; is that correct?
4 A. Yes it is.
5 Q. If you have a look at this document now, you can see that the
6 heading says the Croatian Defence Council. It says the Independent
7 Battalion, the Independent Mostar Defence Battalion. It says strictly
8 confidential, we have the date the 8th of May, 1992, and if we scroll down
9 -- could we please scroll down right to the bottom of the document --
10 we'll see that the document has been signed by Mr. Cupina and that
11 Mr. Pasalic is being appointed to the position of battalion commander,
12 Mr. Arif Pasalic; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that's what the document says.
14 Q. Very well. That's correct. Could we scroll up again.
15 Can we see the symbol of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina here?
16 A. Not here.
17 Q. But this is a document signed by a unit which is considered to be
18 the beginning of the ABiH in Mostar; isn't that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry please show us 5D
23 Q. Once again we have a document from the Independent Mostar Defence
24 Battalion. It's dated the 9th of May. Mr. Smajkic, would you agree that
25 the heading again says the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council, and yet
1 again we can't see the symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
2 A. Yes, I agree with that.
3 Q. And the signatory - if we can scroll down - we'll see who signed
4 the document. The person who signed the document is Mr. Cupina once
5 again. Isn't that correct, Mr. Smajkic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On the basis of this document, can we draw the conclusion that
8 Mr. Cupina and the Independent Mostar Defence Battalion deny the statehood
9 or the existence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. This document shows that there was a form of joint coordination
11 and that the Independent Battalion accepted HVO leadership in order to
12 defend themselves and liberate themselves from the JNA.
13 Q. Yes, but my question is given the fact that the symbol of the
14 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has been omitted, is it possible to draw
15 any conclusions as to the position of the person who drafted the document
16 with regard to the existence of that state?
17 A. No, we can't draw any conclusions from this document on that
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry now show us the
21 following document: 5D 01106. So 1106 is the number of the document. So
22 far we have seen documents signed by Mr. Suad Cupina, documents that don't
23 bear the symbol of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 Could the registry now show us the signatory. Could we scroll
25 down to the bottom of the document now, please. Unfortunately, this
1 scanned digital version doesn't reveal the identity of the person who
2 signed the document but the original does. We could place the original on
3 the ELMO, and I'd like to do so with the assistance of the usher. We'll
4 thus be able to see who the signatory of the document is.
5 Q. Mr. Smajkic, we can see that the signatory is Mr. Arif Pasalic.
6 Isn't that correct?
7 A. That's what it says.
8 Q. That's correct. Mr. Pasalic replaced Mr. Cupina at the head of
9 the Independent Battalion and then in the autumn of 1992 he became the
10 commander of the 4th Corps of the ABiH; isn't that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. If we return to the digital version of this document - I assume it
13 will be simpler to proceed in this way - then at the top of the document
14 we'll see that the date is the 15th of May, 1992, and we'll also see that
15 the document doesn't bear the symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Isn't that
16 correct, Mr. Smajkic?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So Mr. Pasalic also signed documents the heading of which didn't
19 contain the symbol of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 Since we're discussing this document, if we have a look at the
21 middle of the document we'll see that it mentions the strength of the
22 battalion. Mr. Smajkic, would we agree that this is immediately prior to
23 the liberation of the town of Mostar?
24 A. Yes, about a month prior to its liberation.
25 Q. That's correct. Could we scroll a little further down, please.
1 Can you tell us what the total strength of the Independent Battalion was?
2 569. Isn't that right?
3 A. Yes. That's what it says in this document.
4 Q. Do you see the number 569? Can you tell us, in the town of Mostar
5 and the surroundings, how many Muslim military conscripts were there, in
6 your assessment, and how many refugees were there from Eastern
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Last week in the course of your testimony you said that according
10 to the documents of the Cultural Circle of Muslims in Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina, there were 17.000 mainly Muslim men.
12 A. Yes. That's the number, 17.000, but there were men from other
13 areas and they weren't only Muslims.
14 Q. But given that in your assessment, does this number 569 represent
15 a significant military force? You have certain military skills as well, I
16 know that.
17 A. No, it's not a significant number.
18 Q. Very well.
19 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry please show us
20 5D 0107 -- 1107 and 1108. Those are the documents we'd like to see on the
21 screen. Again, we're interested in the heading of these documents and
22 we'd like to see whether Bosnia-Herzegovina is referred to in the
23 documents that are of, let's say, Muslim origin or, rather, they're
24 documents that were drafted in the Independent Defence Battalion. So the
25 number of the document I was referring to is 1107. No. Something's not
1 quite right. 1107. It's a document dated the 2nd of June. 1107. We
2 have it on the screen now.
3 Q. Mr. Smajkic, yet again we have before us a document that doesn't
4 bear the symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's dated the 2nd of June, and
5 it's been signed by Mr. Pasalic. Mr. Pasalic contacted the Municipal
6 Staff of the HVO in Mostar. He is asking for weapons, ammunition, et
7 cetera, isn't that correct, and it didn't bear the symbol of Bosnia and
9 A. That's correct. You keep emphasising this fact. This is a
10 compromise. It was important to liberate the town, and we believed that
11 this issue would be solved at a later date.
12 Q. Please don't try to interpret these things, just try to answer the
13 questions since we don't have much time.
14 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] And could we now have a look at the
15 document number 5D 01108. 1108. Could the registry please put the
16 document on the screen.
17 Q. This is a handwritten document, and again here do you agree with
18 me, Mr. Smajkic, it doesn't bear the symbol of the B and H?
19 A. No, it doesn't.
20 Q. And if you can see the Croatian version, it is signed -- or the
21 Bosnian version, if you will. We have the English translation now on our
22 screens. So this document was signed by, of course, if -- we'll see that
23 if you scroll up a bit. So it is Hasan Breko, the commander of the 1st
24 Company of the Independent Battalion, and the date is the 12th of July,
25 1992. Do you know Mr. Breko?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you agree with me that the 12th of July is almost a month after
3 the liberation of Mostar?
4 A. Not exactly. Thereabouts, more or less.
5 Q. Okay, yes, thank you very much. And after the liberation of
6 Mostar, the documents of the Independent Battalion still fail to bear the
7 symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Right.
8 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] And talking about symbols and
9 emblems, will the registrar please show us document 5D 010 -- sorry,
10 5D 01109.
11 Q. While we are waiting for this document to be displayed, I shall
12 tell you, Mr. Smajkic, that this is an order from 1992. We don't know the
13 exact date because it is not there, issued by the military police of
14 Travnik. And if we can see the document, then we can perhaps deal with
15 it. Here it is.
16 So this is the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
17 it says the Muslim forces of Travnik; right, Mr. Smajkic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. 1992. We see the signatory and with some sort of a stamp. Tell
20 me, is this stamp -- you discussed this -- the stamp used also with my
21 Colleague Nozica that was used or not used. Tell me, this stamp that we
22 see on this document, is it in any way whatsoever connected with Bosnia
23 and Herzegovina and the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
24 A. No, it is not.
25 Q. You spoke Arabic, of course. Can you translate for our benefit
1 what the stamp says, the top part of it?
2 A. It says, "Allah is the only god and Muhammed is his messenger."
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Will the registrar show us document
5 5D 0110. If it is -- if there are difficulties, we can see it on the
6 ELMO. 5D 01110.
7 Well, if we can't do it, perhaps we can show it on the ELMO.
8 Well, here it is.
9 Q. Mr. Smajkic, as you can see on the top, the 8th of May is written
10 by hand, and this is a list of members of the HVO Independent Defence
11 Battalion, battalion for the defence of Mostar, who have been issued with
12 an automatic rifle. I presume that you know some of these people on this
13 list. Tell me, under number 9, do you see the name Zijo Demirovic, Sosi?
14 A. Yes, it is there.
15 Q. He was among the leaders of the SDA in Mostar, was he not?
16 A. Yes, he was.
17 Q. So one cannot conclude on that basis that he was also a soldier.
18 Not only was he formally a military conscript but he was indeed a soldier
19 because he had been issued with a rifle.
20 A. I know that he was not a soldier because he did not go to the
21 positions. I know him personally.
22 Q. But you see him on this list.
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And you see his nickname, Sos. So it couldn't be a person bearing
25 the very same name and surname. I mean, this -- that distinction would be
1 obvious, given his nickname.
2 A. You are right.
3 Q. Will the registrar please scroll the document up so we can see the
4 end of the document. All the way up. Yes, thank you.
5 Under number 25, Mr. Smajkic, we have Arif Pasalic. First the
6 command -- deputy commander and later the -- of the -- that is of the
7 Independent Battalion, and later the commander of the 4th Corps; right?
8 A. Well, that name is there.
9 Q. And can you read just the first line of this remark, of this note
10 down here. If it is difficult for you, I will assist you. So it says,
11 "The automatic rifles have been received from the Main Staff of the HVO."
12 Is that what it says?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. So we see for that this group of the members of the Independent
15 Battalion as well among whom there also are prominent political and
16 military officials from among the ranks of the Muslim nation, they have
17 been issued their weapons by the HVO; right?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Thank you. Will the registry please show us document 5D 01111.
20 So it's four 1s in a row.
21 And while we wait for that document, Mr. Smajkic, I will ask you
22 to confirm for me that a couple of days ago you referred to the fact that
23 the Muslims were systematically pushed out of posts in the social and
24 public life, political life in Mostar. Today we saw -- in some of the
25 exhibits presented by the Defence of Mr. Prlic some different thesis being
1 advanced. Tell me, in 1991, 1992, and 1993, especially were Muslims
2 indeed suppressed from such positions in social and political life?
3 A. Indeed they were.
4 Q. Thank you. We now again see the book of Suad Cupina that you
5 revised [as interpreted], that you lavished praises on. Will the
6 registrar please show us the following page. So this is a reproduction
7 from the book of Mr. Cupina. It is a list of directors and principals of
8 elementary and secondary schools.
9 Mr. Smajkic, would you be so kind as to take a quick look at this
10 list of names.
11 A. Yes, I have done that.
12 Q. Can the registrar please scroll the document down. Can you take a
13 look at these names as well.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can we have next -- the next page, page 229 from the book, or the
16 next page in this document. These are directors of cultural institutions,
17 et cetera. I should like to kindly ask you, Mr. Smajkic, again to take a
18 look at this list.
19 A. I have done that.
20 Q. Can you find the name of a single newly appointed director who is
21 not a Muslim, a single one?
22 A. There is an explanation for this, sir.
23 Q. I'm not asking you for any explanations. You have seen 30 or 40
24 names of newly appointed directors. I'm just asking you whether a single
25 one of them is not Muslim. Or I can rephrase the question: Of those who
1 have been replaced and removed from their positions, is there a single one
2 who is not a Croat or a Serb?
3 A. I know this situation very well. This is a period in which
4 Croatian children did not even go to school in Mostar but went to Zapana,
6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You really ought to answer the questions and not
7 engage upon widespread explanations, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but the
11 impression gained will be a mistaken one, because all the directors are
12 Muslims but it is fact that no Muslim children were in Mostar -- no Croat
13 children were in Mostar at that time.
14 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. In 1991 and 1992, was anyone appointed without being a Croat [as
16 interpreted], a council sit?
17 A. This was a situation at that period.
18 Q. And all the appointments were of Muslims, right?
19 A. Well, I believe Cupina, that he found these facts in some
20 references, in some sources that he referred to. So that's that.
21 Q. Thank you very much. Will the registrar show us 5D 01091.
22 Mr. Smajkic, while we are waiting for this document, you will
23 recall these events. This is a document from the 19th of April, 1992, and
24 if the registrar would scroll it down, this is an order by General
25 Perisic. We have seen it here and in other courtrooms as well about the
1 artillery attack, an artillery attack on parts of the city. Do we agree,
2 Mr. Smajkic, that Cim, Ilici, Bijeli Brijeg, and Donja Mahala, parts of
3 the city of Mostar, are not military targets but civilian targets?
4 A. Yes, these are sections of the city.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Will the registrar please scroll the
6 document up. We want to see the heading.
7 Mr. Smajkic, this was 10 -- 10 days prior to the transference of
8 powers for the defence to the HVO. So at this moment, the actual power in
9 the city was vested in the Crisis Staff.
10 A. Yes, still.
11 Q. Thank you very much. 5D 01112 is the next document that we would
12 kindly ask the registrar to show us.
13 This is -- and can we see the next page immediately. Again, an
14 excerpt from the book that you revised [as interpreted], that is the book
15 of Mr. Cupina. And if we take a look at the first and second paragraphs,
16 you will see, Mr. Smajkic, that there was a quite pronounced
17 dissatisfaction with the activities of the civilian authorities; i.e., the
18 activities of the Crisis Staff. And then in the third paragraph, which
19 starts in this way: "Precisely on account of such inadequate activity,
20 the --" and so on and so forth -- "the activists of the Patriotic League
21 had to set up their own Crisis Staff." Is this what it says, Mr. Smajkic?
22 A. That is what it says.
23 Q. So in addition to the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of
24 Mostar, which was its official designation, there obviously also existed a
25 Crisis Staff of the Patriotic League; right?
1 A. Not that I was aware of.
2 Q. Because the people who were members of that Crisis Staff are
3 indicated here, I have no doubt that you know all these people.
4 A. I can conclude on the basis of these names that this was not a
5 political body but people who were actually preparing themselves for the
7 Q. I'm not suggesting anything otherwise. I just want us to agree
8 and for you to confirm, if you can, that the Patriotic League in Mostar
9 formed a separate Crisis Staff.
10 At the bottom of this same page - and will the registrar please
11 scroll the page down - we can see a reference being made to the fact that
12 already on the 10th of February, 1991, in Bihac the president of the
13 Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Alija
14 Izetbegovic, proclaimed the existence of the Patriotic League for B and H.
15 Obviously this Patriotic League in Mostar was a component part of this
16 Patriotic League for the B and H which Alija Izetbegovic proclaimed as
17 existing on the 10th of February, 1991.
18 A. I cannot comment that.
19 Q. Okay. Do you know what the programme of the Patriotic League was?
20 What did it advocate?
21 A. I did not have its programme at that time, and I was not that much
22 involved in this subject matter, the subject matter of defence, in this
23 initial stage, that is.
24 Q. But do you know in view of the numerous articles and books that
25 were published on this subject, including this one which you revised [as
1 interpreted], what the programme of the Patriotic League was? Was it set
2 up to defend all the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina or just to defend the
3 Muslim people?
4 A. If the authorship actually hails from the idea of Alija
5 Izetbegovic, it could by no means be just for the protection of the Muslim
7 Q. You are convinced of that?
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 Q. In the examination-in-chief a few days ago, you commented on this
10 and reverted to the subject today, namely developments in respect of Boban
11 -- the Boban-Karadzic meeting in Graz. Did you or did you not discuss
12 that already?
13 A. At that time, I did not even know nor had read about it, but I
14 said how it had been, and I stand behind that.
15 Q. Thank you. Tell me, in 1991 -- in mid-1991, did you have any
16 information, did you know anything about the secret Muslim-Serbian
17 negotiations and talks?
18 A. You're asking me too much. You're asking -- that is a tall order.
19 This is a feel that is alien to me. I have no idea.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know that after they had been busted, so to
21 speak -- I mean after they found out that these talks had indeed taken
22 place -- did the papers throughout the then former Yugoslavia extensively
23 write about that and that the memoirs of these developments were written
24 by the participants of at least from the Muslim side, which is Muhamed
25 Filipovic, Zulfikarpasic and Alija Izetbegovic?
1 A. I was informed about it in a way, but I had no direct insight into
2 the happenings.
3 Q. But did you -- you do know that there was some secret Muslim-Serb
4 negotiations held in mid-1992?
5 A. As far as I could see from the papers, such talks were indeed
6 conducted in order for the former Yugoslavia to part, the nations of the
7 former Yugoslavia to part in a peaceful way.
8 Q. I'm not asking you that. I'm just asking you whether you know
9 about it or not, knew about it.
10 A. Well, I could read about it in the papers. I don't know about the
11 actual substance.
12 Q. All right. We have already referred to the 29th of April, 1992,
13 namely, the moment when the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of
14 Mostar transferred the powers for the defence to the Croatian Defence
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Will the registrar please show us document 5D 01093.
18 And whilst we are waiting Mr. Smajkic, yesterday one of the
19 members of that Crisis Staff was with us here yesterday, and he told us
20 that all the activities of the staff ended on the 15th of May, 1992, and
21 under a decision of the HVO Mostar, that Crisis Staff was disbanded on
22 that date. I would like show you in that connection a document which on
23 precisely that date that refers to precisely that Crisis Staff of the
24 Municipal Assembly. We did not manage to decipher the signatory's name
25 but it impresses the commander of the 1st Mostar Battalion and refers to
1 the coordination of the quartermaster service and the needs to inform the
2 Crisis Staff of the TO of that.
3 So Mr. Smajkic, a while ago we saw that the Patriotic League,
4 according to Mr. Cupina, that is, had set up a separate Crisis Staff in
5 Mostar distinct from this Municipal Assembly of Mostar Crisis Staff. Now
6 we see here the Crisis Staff of the TO. As you were part of the
7 developments and the organisation there then -- in fact, a few days ago
8 you said that you lobbied with Mr. Izetbegovic for the replacement of
9 Mr. Hadziosmanovic, and that you personally informed via Radio Mostar
10 about his replacement, do you perhaps know what Crisis Staff of the TO
11 this was?
12 A. No, I don't know.
13 Q. Thank you. When answering Mr. Scott's questions, you mentioned
14 how Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic was elected, Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic, he was
15 elected as the leader of the SDA in Mostar or, rather, as president of the
16 regional SDA in Herzegovina. And on that occasion you said that the main
17 argument in his favour was that his brother Mustafa was a member of the
18 Young Muslims. Page 73 and 74 of the unofficial version of the
19 transcript. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes. I still believe that that's how it worked. That's my
21 assessment. You asked me about it, that was my conclusion.
22 Q. That's correct. You certainly know and you can certainly answer
23 my question as to whether Alija Izetbegovic was a member of the Young
25 A. Yes, he was.
1 Q. Would you agree with me that Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic is not the
2 only person whose political career prospered because he was a member of
3 the Young Muslims. You probably know something about the SDA and its
4 establishment and I therefore assume you would agree that one of the
5 founders of the SDA -- or, rather, that members of the Young Muslims were
6 some of the most prominent founders. For the sake of the transcript, it
7 was Teufik Velagic, Omer Behmen, Alija Izetbegovic. I'll repeat the
8 names: Teufik Velagic, Omer Behmen, et cetera. Were they at the very top
9 of the SDA from the very beginning?
10 A. Yes, I believe so.
11 Q. Later they were promoted to positions at the state level. Omer
12 Behmen became the BH ambassador in Iran; isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And Mr. Mohamed Sacirbegovic was the person who was promoted to
15 the highest ranking position. He was the ambassador of Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina at the United Nations in New York, and later he was the
17 minister of foreign affairs. Isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I can see that you know what I'm going to ask you about. His
20 father Nedzib was also a member of the Young Muslims.
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. So we can see that Mr. Izetbegovic pursued policies that attached
23 significant importance to whether or not someone had been a member of the
24 Young Muslims. What kind of an organisation were the Young Muslims?
25 That's an important question. I have Sef Turhoj's [phoen] book on the
1 Young Muslims, or entitled "The Young Muslims." Have you read it?
2 A. No, I haven't.
3 Q. It's a collection of documents produced by that movement, and it
4 was also based on some conversations with surviving witnesses. The only
5 original part of the book is the introduction.
6 Could the registrar please show us 5D 01082. Could this document
7 please be put on the screen.
8 While we're waiting for it to appear on the screen, Mr. Smajkic,
9 this document concerns a conversation with Alija Izetbegovic, and this
10 conversation was published in the book. Could we have a look at the next
11 page, please.
12 We can see the young Mr. Izetbegovic here, and let's have a look
13 the next page, please. Mr. Izetbegovic says how the organisation was
14 founded, and he explains its objectives, and then from the middle onwards
15 he says: "I remember that one of the items mentioned the unity of the
16 Muslims throughout the world. I think that was item 4. And item 5 read
17 as follows: 'The practical achievement of Islam.' And there was a
18 secretive formula there. There was no comment. It says we always
19 interpreted this as being tantamount to the creation of a very large
20 Muslim state. For us, that is what this item in fact meant whereas all
21 the other items also had an explanation accompanying the principle, or a
22 lengthy or brief explanation, whereas all that was stated here is the
23 practical information of Islam, and then there is no comment."
24 Can we have a look at the next page, please.
25 At the top the author of the book asks Mr. Izetbegovic, Did this,
1 among other things, mean that there was a request for certain discipline,
2 subordination? He answered yes. I also interpreted item 5 in this way.
3 "We didn't comment this item because we believed that it was a certain
4 conspiratorial item, a secret. It represented something that should not
5 be said at that time. I always interpreted this item as a request for a
6 sort of political implementation of Islam." Is that what it says in this
7 book, Mr. Smajkic? And it was published, as we could see on page 1, in
8 1992, when Mr. Izetbegovic was politically extremely powerful. Is that
9 what it says here?
10 A. Yes, it does.
11 Q. Could the registry show us 5D 01083. This document is from the
12 same book.
13 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.
15 MR. SCOTT: I've been quiet this afternoon but I'm just wondering
16 how much this assists us. All we're doing now is reading excerpts of
17 material and then the question to the witness is just -- look at line 23
18 of page 96: "Does the page that I've just shown you say that?" And the
19 witness says, "That's what it says." Now, how much does it really assist
20 the Chamber to simply go through a series of documents and ask the witness
21 if that's what it says?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but as a general rule,
23 Mr. Jonjic concludes such a series of questions by putting a question of a
24 general nature to the witness, a question of a general nature that -- that
25 resumes or synthesises all the other questions, and this then helps the
1 Chamber. But as you have said, at the moment we can't see what the
2 purpose of these questions is but we are anticipating or we are waiting
3 for the question that will clarify everything.
4 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. What is at
5 stake here is the ideological background of the president -- of the
6 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this is one of the elements of
7 his staff policies, and I think that Mr. Smajkic is in a good position to
8 explain to us whether these statements are in accordance with Islam.
9 Could we have a look at the document 5D 01083, and very briefly we
10 will have a look at this.
11 Q. It's an oath of -- taken by members of the Young Muslims. This is
12 an organisation that Mr. Izetbegovic belonged to, and he recruited his
13 most reliable staff members from this organisation.
14 Mr. Smajkic, if you can just read through it very quickly. Have a
15 look at this oath which mentions unconditional sacrifice for Islam, for
16 the greatness of Islam and for the benefits of all the Muslims throughout
17 the world.
18 Mr. Smajkic, would you agree that there's nothing specifically
19 Bosnian here? Such an oath could have been taken in, for example, Saudi
20 Arabia, Iran, Indonesia; in any country inhabited by Muslims?
21 A. I've never seen this before, believe me.
22 Q. But is there anything that is specifically Bosnian in this
24 A. As far as I can see, this represents the religious enthusiasm of
25 people who were very young at the time and who dreamt of being free to
1 practice their own religion. It doesn't really have anything to do with
3 Q. Could we have a look at the following document, 5D 01084. And
4 this document is part of the testimony of a member of the Young Muslims,
5 and it says that in a multi-ethnic and multi-confessional area, such as
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina, according to the ideas of this group, it mentions
7 how the problems of Croats and Serbs could be dealt with.
8 Could we have a look at the following page, please, and this is
9 the last excerpt that we will be looking at from this book. If we have a
10 look at the middle of the document. Scroll down a little more. That's
12 In response to a question put by the Chamber with regard to the
13 purposes of the organisation, and in order to save time, I'll summarise
14 what it says. A member of the organisation responded that at an
15 appropriate point in time they wanted to establish an independent Bosnia
16 that would become part of an Islam state, and all the parts of Yugoslavia
17 inhabited by Muslims would be part of that state, they would take power
18 into their own hands. What would they do with the Serbs and the Croats?
19 We'd be tolerant with regard to Serbs and Croats. And how would Turks,
20 Serbs, and Bulgarians join this state? The answer was, We would move them
21 out or solve the problem in some other way.
22 Mr. Smajkic, I am not asking you to confirm such a position but
23 all I want to know is whether you can confirm that a member of this
24 organisation actually said this.
25 A. Well, that's what we can read in the document.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Let's now go back to the purpose of the
2 exercise. We're trying to demonstrate the reasons that Izetbegovic had
3 when pursuing party policies and state policies in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Can we have a look at another excerpt from another book. 5D 01081
5 is the number of that document.
6 While waiting for it to appear on the screen, Mr. Smajkic, your
7 name is Enver -- you're certainly familiar with the name Enver Redzic.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. He is an academic, a member of the Academy of Bosnia-Herzegovina
10 and certainly one of the most prominent Muslim intellectuals, certainly
11 one of the most prominent historians; would you agree with me?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. So this is a book of his, entitled "A Hundred Years of Muslim
14 Policies," in which he comments on the Islamic Declaration. Could we have
15 a look at the next page, please. The Islamic Declaration, Mr. Smajkic,
16 you will agree with me, I think, the Islamic Declaration is one of
17 Mr. Izetbegovic's most important texts, and he was put on trial in
18 Sarajevo for this text in '83.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. He never rejected his positions in the Islamic Declaration; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Well, I don't know about that.
23 Q. Have you read that book of his?
24 A. Yes, I have.
25 Q. I apologise. I'm waiting for the interpretation. If you have
1 read that book, then you're able to see how Mr. Redzic analysed the book.
2 He was a regular member of the Academy of Arts and Science in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina and he is a Muslim; isn't that correct? Given that
4 this is an article about 40 pages long, I've only selected certain parts
5 of the text. We don't have time to go through everything. I think we can
6 have a look at the next page, though. And the next one. That's the one.
7 Have a look at the middle part of the document, in which analysis is made
8 of the Islamic Declaration and the Redzic says that any discussion of the
9 national issue of Bosnian Muslims is not included in the declaration. It
10 -- when analysed, this declaration doesn't touch on the name of the
11 Muslims, although there were a lot of discussions of that during that
12 period. The declaration completely neglects the question of national
14 Could we have a look at the next page, please.
15 In the middle, the last sentence in the middle of this paragraph,
16 the one that hasn't been crossed out, it says that Izetbegovic's thesis is
17 that the Muslim doesn't exist as an entity, not as an individual, but as a
18 collective entity.
19 Then let's have a look at the last page, please. At the very
20 bottom. I'll read it through to save time. "To be ideologically
21 unilateral means to be intolerant. The protagonists of Islam are not
22 immune to this. The position that Islam is not just a religion and that
23 means an ideology is a position that Izetbegovic emphasises with the
24 conclusion on Islam and non-Islamic systems not being reconcilable."
25 And then there's another quotation from Mr. Izetbegovic's
1 declaration: "There is no peace or co-existence between the Islam faith
2 and non-Islamic social and political institutions. Islam excludes the
3 possibility and the right of any kind of ideology being operational in its
5 Mr. Smajkic, could you briefly comment on these positions of one
6 of the most prominent Islam scientists or academics.
7 A. Your Honour -- Your Honours, I can comment on this very
8 superficially right now, but I would simply like to inform you that
9 Mr. Izetbegovic was a thinker and that he thought through philosophical
10 questions, historical questions, questions that concerned the history of
12 Q. In order to come to such conclusions?
13 A. Well, no, but he couldn't discuss certain issues because each of
14 these articles in the system that existed at the time was written under a
15 pseudonym. So he couldn't have dealt with issues that concerned
16 nationality or relationships.
17 Q. Thank you. We saw a while ago an illustration of the activity of
18 Izetbegovic's authentic organisation, the original organisation, the Young
19 Muslims, and now we saw his Islamic Declaration. There is a continuity
20 between the two, don't you agree?
21 A. I'd refrain from commenting on that. You have said quite a lot to
22 me, and I would have to give it some thought.
23 Q. Thank you very much. But you did say that the Islamic Declaration
24 of Alija Izetbegovic was a consequence of his thinking endeavours. So I
25 would like to say that in thinking Islam through in this way, which Enver
1 Redzic designates as being intolerant, exclusive, and totalitarian, that
2 he did not just stick to the doctrine, the theoretical level, but as you
3 can see and as yourself confirmed in actually appointing the -- his key
4 associates, he bore in mind the fact that they should actually hail from
5 the same ideological milieus. Is that so?
6 A. Yes, that can be accepted.
7 Q. I shall ask you just a couple of questions so that I leave enough
8 time for Mr. Coric and for General Praljak.
9 Will the registrar show us 5D 01069, please. That document, of
11 While we're waiting for the document, Mr. Smajkic, your calling is
12 primarily of a spiritual nature, so it would be only logical for you to
13 predominantly not dedicate yourself to lay matters, specifically not to
14 defence; right?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. This document that we see in front us is a document sent by the
17 police administration of Mostar to different HVO bodies -- no, rather to
18 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, I apologise, and attached to it is
19 a record or minutes of meeting. Let us take a short look at the first
20 page and then take a longer look at the second page, please.
21 The heading says the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- no, no, no.
22 The next page, please. Can we have the next page, please.
23 So this document says at the top of the page Independent Unit
24 Muslim forces of Mostar. It refers to some persons that you also yourself
25 referred to during the examination-in-chief. If I remember correctly, you
1 did mention Mr. Custovic. However, on the second page -- will the
2 registrar please show us the next-to-last page of this document, please.
3 So I shall read again to save time: "Attached to this letter is
4 also a list of personnel, members of the unit of the Muslim forces of
5 Mostar on the 21st of November, 1992. By their signatures, the commission
6 guarantees that the situation as indicated is correct and full moral and
7 material responsibility. Any things that might remain unclear shall be
8 explained by the stated commission together, I, with the presence of the
9 Mostar mufti, at the joint meeting with representatives of the Islamic
10 centre at the headquarters of the Muslim forces in Zenica, with the
11 supreme Emir of the Muslim forces and other members of the Sure at the
12 helm." Is this what it says, Mr. Smajkic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember these developments, this meeting in Zenica and the
15 compiling of this list? So this is the end of November 1992.
16 A. It states that it is in Zenica.
17 Q. Yes, but with the presence of the Mostar mufti.
18 A. But where? Where does it say with the presence of the Mostar
20 Q. All -- "Anything unclear will be clarified by the mentioned
21 commission together with the presence of the Mostar mufti, at a joint
22 meeting, it shall be explained --"
23 A. It shall be explained.
24 Q. Yes, yes. But did you participate in that? This is just a
25 compilation of a list of members. Nothing is problematic there.
1 A. Of course I cannot retain everything in memory, but when you
2 referred to this person indicated here, this was some sort of an
3 agreement. A person was sent, a person whose name is Ibrahim Mimic, and
4 possibly appeared in the capacity of Emir. This is what I can remember.
5 Q. But you did participate in this compilation of the list and you
6 coordinated matters with this Muslim centre in Zenica. Did you or did you
7 not? I would not like to dwell too much on this.
8 A. I'm not avoiding anything, it's just that I need to recall some
9 things. I did participate in parts of this activity because I -- we were
10 supposed to coordinate matters along some coordination lines because these
11 are people from Mostar.
12 Q. Yes, but the headquarters of the Muslim forces was in Zenica.
13 A. Yes. They thought themselves to be that, but as you can see,
14 these are -- we have documents with such-and-such signatories and these or
15 those units, but this was not coordinated in a way that you could say that
16 they were thus organised in the command sense.
17 Q. Okay. But confirm this for me: The "Instructions for the Muslim
18 Fighter" were also published and printed in Zenica; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can we just see another two documents? I would like to ask the
21 registrar -- I hope that I shall have enough time. 5D 01115, 1115 is the
22 first one, please.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to go back to the
24 preceding document, document number 69. On the -- in the list of weapons
25 -- can we see the document? Can we have a look at the document on the
1 screen? In English it's entitled "Record."
2 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] 01069. That is the covering letter.
3 Then the next page.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The next page. There it is.
5 Sir, could you have a look at the last line. There's something
7 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right, Your Honour.
8 There is something missing in the electronic version which does appear in
9 the -- in the hard copy.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We could place it on the ELMO,
11 perhaps. Digital versions aren't perfect. Far from it. We will have a
12 look at the document on the ELMO now.
13 Have a look at the last line. Could you read out the last line,
14 Witness. What does it say? [No interpretation].
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here 1 piece of automatic
16 rifle issued to the Mostar mufti.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How do you explain the fact that
18 a member of the clergy receives a weapon or can receive a weapon?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, simply speaking, I never used
20 anything of the kind, but I was indeed once issued with one. It was a
21 state of war. And you could see that all the political representatives
22 all had been issued with similar items.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I was wondering
24 about. You were at war, but what about the other members of the clergy in
25 Mostar? The Catholic bishop, for example, or the Orthodox priest? Were
1 they also issued with weapons? Did they have weapons too? Why did you
2 have a weapon and the others did not? How would you explain the fact that
3 you personally had a weapon?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I explained this by the fact
5 that it was war and that every person had to be armed whether they used
6 the weapons or not, whether they were in units or not. I had it at home.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But is it normal in your
8 religion that members of the clergy have arms, have weapons in their
9 possession? Is this provided for in the Koran?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, one had to exercise caution.
11 It is not provided for in the Koran, but as in moving about we were
12 exposed to the danger of being attacked, and as we were responsible
13 people, we had to take care of our own protection on our own initiative,
14 because we had no guards and there was no one else there to defend us.
15 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I meant to
16 leave this for the end, but while we are at the subject, I will continue
17 to pursue this line that you have initiated, but I will ask this in the
18 form of a question.
19 Q. Mr. Smajkic, did you use -- do you use for personal protection a
20 pistol or an automatic rifle?
21 A. I don't know. I never used either. It was there and could be
22 had, and I had it at my disposal, but I never used it.
23 Q. I shall refrain from asking Mr. Smajkic some other things which I
24 had meant to ask him. I shall just show him a document which I believe
25 complements what Colleague Alaburic talked about today.
1 Can we see 5D 01115. 1115. This is a document which describes
2 the situation in Mostar on the 28th of May, 1993.
3 Do you agree, Mr. Smajkic, that this is a document of the 3rd
4 Brigade of the HVO of the 28th of May, and that that was 19 days after the
5 outbreak or, rather, the escalation of the conflict between the Muslim and
6 the Croat forces in Mostar?
7 A. That is the 28th of May.
8 Q. That's right. Thank you. Will the registrar please scroll the
9 document up so that we can see the content.
10 The commander of the 3rd Brigade commands that an analysis be
11 undertaken of the attitude and conduct of members of the Muslim nation who
12 found themselves in the units, and then he goes on to ask how many Muslims
13 crossed over to the side of the army of BH with weapons or without
14 weapons, how many Muslims had left their units and how many remained in
15 the units. And then it goes on to -- can we scroll the document a
16 bit further up, please. He then enjoins upon the information and
17 propaganda service, the IPD, information and propaganda activity service
18 in the HVO, to make the work more efficient, to intensify the work in
19 order to unmask the intentions of the extreme sections of the army of BH
20 and the part of the Muslim leadership and people. It also stresses the
21 necessity of further co-existence in the field, in the terrain in which
22 the unit is, and the necessity to render operational the organs of
23 authority on the basis of the UN plan. And the last item is to retain
24 members of the Muslim nationality in the units, namely those who are not
25 -- namely those who are not extremists and only promote a joint struggle
1 against a joint enemy.
2 Is this what it says, Mr. Smajkic?
3 A. Yes, it is. That is what it says in this document.
4 Q. So some 20 days after the outbreak of the conflict, the brigade of
5 the HVO headquartered in Mostar speaks about the necessity of further
6 joint life, joint cooperation, joint fighting against the common enemy;
8 A. This is what it says here, but what they did in the field, well --
9 Q. All right. Just another question, because I have gone over my
10 time limit. A few days ago you mentioned -- that was page 132, line 9 and
11 10, of the unofficial record, asked whom -- whom of the accused you knew,
12 you mentioned Mr. Valentin Coric. Tell me, when did you meet Mr. Valentin
14 A. That was during the post-war establishment of the organs of
15 authority in the cantons.
16 Q. And when was this specifically? What position did he hold?
17 A. He was the minister of the interior of the canton.
18 Q. Do you have meetings with him frequently? Did you cooperate with
20 A. No, I did not, but I knew him and I know him through his deputy,
21 but I did not have dealings with him specifically.
22 Q. You are referring to Mr. Dzihic as his deputy?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You are talking about the establishment of a joint police force;
1 A. Well, he's a well-known person, both in the Assembly of the canton
2 and through other forms of activities and contacts and his presence to
3 some joint events, but otherwise I didn't have direct dealings and talks
4 with him.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have another 15 minutes
9 before the break. Mr. Coric has 15 minutes for his questions, we will
10 then have our break, and then Mr. Praljak will have another 15 minutes.
11 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examination by the accused Coric:
13 Q. Good day, Mr. Smajkic.
14 A. Good day.
15 Q. My name is Valentin Coric, I am one of the accused. I'd like to
16 put a number of questions to you that concern the political situation in
17 Mostar when a conflict broke out in the Muslim Corps. There was a
18 replacement of the legally elected president of the SDA in Mostar who was
19 also the president of the SDA of the town of Mostar. A certain circle of
20 which you were a part requested that he be replaced. You admitted that.
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. I've had a look at the names of the people involved in that circle
23 and I notice there are quite a few people who didn't participate in the
24 first democratically held elections; is that correct?
25 A. I don't know, I don't know who participated in the first elections,
1 but I do know the people from that circle who were in my vicinity at the
3 Q. So we're talking about the Council of Muslims of Herzegovina,
4 we're talking about the declaration, the charter, we're talking about the
5 people who took part in the drafting of those three documents and who took
6 part in those institutions?
7 A. I know those people well but I don't know anything about 1991. I
8 don't know whether they participated or not in that, though, in the
9 elections. That's what you were referring to.
10 Q. I find this a little odd. Why was it legitimate for these people
11 to participate in political battles?
12 A. Well, they were forced to act in that way because
13 Mr. Hadziosmanovic wouldn't take into consideration the interests of the
14 Bosniak people.
15 Q. Who forced them?
16 A. What do you mean who forced them? These people became aware of
17 the situation, and they found methods and means of becoming active. They
18 were trying to find a way that would enable them to solve the problems of
19 education, the judiciary, of humanitarian aid, of protection in the most
20 effective way. And Mr. Hadziosmanovic didn't act in the way he should
21 have acted in that respect, so naturally people were quite right in
22 raising this issue, the issue of his responsibility.
23 Q. That's my question. Were these people entitled to bring into
24 question the position of a legally elected person?
25 A. Well, we didn't act in secret. We had the right to say that we
1 weren't satisfied with such a person.
2 Q. I obviously can't obtain a realistic answer from you, so my
3 following question is: That was the conclusion of a group of individuals.
4 They decided that he wasn't working correctly. You also referred to the
5 people, and you also said there was a small part of the people who were
6 with the SDA president.
7 A. Yes, that's what I said and I believe that that is correct.
8 Q. Did you establish a political party since you were not previously
9 engaged in a political party? Yes or no.
10 A. I was never a member of a political party.
11 Q. I know that, but I know that people surrounding you were. I
12 wanted to know what the results were -- what results they obtained when
13 they participated in the first democratic elections. It's odd that you
14 don't know anything about this. I'd like to move on, I don't want to
15 waste any time since time is precious.
16 The conclusion one can draw is that you received instructions from
17 someone to replace such a person. You weren't supported by the people.
18 Did you receive instructions from the outside?
19 A. Those instructions came from the inside.
20 Q. How, or was there a referendum held?
21 A. No, but there was disagreement.
22 Q. I'd like to present some arguments to you. At the time, there was
23 a significant number of Bosniaks or Muslims in the HVO. As we have
24 already seen today, that was the case. School directors were Bosniaks;
25 isn't that correct?
1 A. I was referring to the first stage.
2 Q. That's the period I'm referring to.
3 A. During the first stage -- well, Ms. Nozica had a list from the
4 first government, and it included Muslim ministers. They were replaced
5 within one month, and that's what the HVO and the HVO government did. A
6 few months later, there were new people who were appointed whereas the
7 others were replaced.
8 Q. I'm not talking about the SDA, I'm talking about the policies and
9 political positions in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was then going to
10 compare things. But what I want to clarify before this Chamber is what
11 the real cause of the conflict between the Croats and Bosniaks in Mostar
12 was. My question is as follows: Would you agree that the lines facing
13 the Serbo-Chetniks had already been established after June, 1993, and
14 those lines didn't move almost until the end of the war? Would you agree
15 with that? At that time the Croats and Bosniaks fought together. They
16 were in the HVO and acted within the HVO in a joint manner. And let me
17 remind you that the HVO was a legal member of the armed forces of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina; would you agree with that?
19 A. Yes, I would.
20 Q. So would you also agree with what I said in my previous question?
21 A. I couldn't agree with that because, as I have said, there was some
22 secret war being waged from the very beginning and there had been lines
23 established at Podvelezje. There were joint units there, and they drove
24 away the Serbo-Chetnik aggressor there. When the Croatian forces remained
25 to guard those lines, the Serbs took them.
1 Q. You are wasting my time, but I'd just like to repeat something
2 that's already been said here. We're talking about the period when the
3 relationship between the HVO and Independent Battalion or the ABiH was 9
4 to 1. There would be 9 HVO soldiers and 1 member of the Independent
5 Battalion. At that time they established lines facing the Serbs; is that
6 correct, during that period?
7 A. Yes, I agree with that.
8 Q. And what happened afterwards? Would you agree that the armed
9 forces in Herzegovina that were part of the ABiH were strengthened? There
10 was no imminent war with the Croats. At least, the Croats weren't
11 expecting such a war. Would you agree?
12 A. Yes. The forces were strengthened.
13 Q. My question is why? There was no longer a war with the Serbs and
14 it was certain that we wouldn't be fighting the Serbs.
15 A. That couldn't have been certain, because the politicians were
16 drawing up maps and trying to reach agreements and no one knew what was
17 going to happen. The Croats and Croatian leadership developed an appetite
18 for the territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 Q. You're wasting my time again.
20 A. Please go ahead.
21 Q. Today we had a look at documents that mentioned the arming of the
22 members of the Independent Battalion. Do you believe that these weapons
23 could have come from some other country apart from Croatia?
24 A. Well, on the whole they came from Croatia. There were independent
25 channels that were used. Certain arms were bought from Chetniks, et
1 cetera, but on the whole that's correct.
2 Q. You said that you knew some of our common friends; isn't that
3 correct? And do you know who I'm -- who I bear in mind?
4 A. Mr. Dziho?
5 Q. Among others.
6 A. And Cupina.
7 Q. Yes. So you've spoken to them and they know how the first stage
8 of arming proceeded. Remember the late Daidza?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you agree that at the time we were very close to each other?
11 Do you agree that we trusted each other, at least, if we weren't close?
12 A. I assume so. I don't know what your personal relationships were.
13 Q. I'm not talking about intimate personal relationships.
14 A. Yes, they were -- they were friendly relationships.
15 Q. I'd like to conclude now. I have a few more questions. After all
16 those conflicts in Herzegovina or in the area for which you are competent
17 as a mufti, could you confirm the following: The Croats -- I'll start
18 with the top -- were expelled from Travnik, Kakanj, Vares, Bugojno,
19 Konjic, Jablanica, Eastern Mostar. Maybe I've forgotten something, but
20 that's sufficient. Do you know how many Croats were in fact expelled or,
21 rather, do you know how many Croats left?
22 A. Well, it's true that they left, that they weren't expelled,
24 Q. Well, that's a different matter. I have different arguments.
25 A. I also have different arguments. But they did leave. They
1 weren't expelled.
2 Q. I've read an article in the Sarajevo newspaper which says that of
3 those Croats that were expelled at the time, only about 15 per cent of
4 those Croats have returned to their homes. Are you aware of that? I'm
5 talking about Kakanj, Vares, Bugojno.
6 A. Well, it was probably a small percentage, but that's the
7 percentage when it comes to all the various ethnic groups.
8 Q. Do you know at the same time in Herzegovina in Capljina and in
9 Stolac in Southern Mostar and Western Mostar - and I'm talking about the
10 Bosniaks - do you know that, according to that article, about 85 per cent
11 of the Bosniaks have returned to their homes?
12 A. Well, probably in the area of Stolac and Capljina. In Mostar,
13 that's not the case, because they wouldn't allow this in the western part
14 because of obstructions to returning.
15 Q. Since I've worked in the police, would you agree that while I was
16 the minister in the canton in Eastern Mostar, there were only 54 Croat
17 inhabitants, and that's in the entire area under the control of the
18 Bosniak authorities?
19 A. I don't know the exact number but it's a small number.
20 Q. You know it's a small number.
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Do you know that in Western Mostar at the same time there were
23 about 8 to 10.000 Bosniaks?
24 A. There are several thousand, but I don't think there are that many.
25 We don't have the statistics.
1 Q. Several thousand; 8.000, 6.000?
2 A. Well, that's a large number. 5 or 6.000, perhaps. I'm not sure.
3 Q. So we do agree that there were at least 5 or 6.000 inhabitants
5 A. But could we also agree that 30 individuals were killed when
6 people attempted to return to Western Mostar, and that's from 1995 until
7 five years ago.
8 Q. Believe me, I have enough information about people who were
10 A. That's why I'm talking about that, because I know you were in the
12 Q. I was in the police for seven years.
13 A. So I have to say that not a single case was dealt with.
14 Q. That's not correct, but I'm not being examined, you are. You have
15 all the information on the MUP according to which investigations were
16 carried out.
17 A. Not a single individual was charged and processed.
18 Q. That's your claim but I don't want to waste time on that. When
19 Mr. -- when Judge Antonetti asked you about certain linguistic matters,
20 I'm not an expert, he asked you the following: He said the official
21 language is Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he
22 asked you whether it was a matter of language or languages. What was your
23 answer? Do you remember?
24 A. I can't remember every word of my testimony.
25 Q. You said that it was a matter of language, that that was the name
1 of the language. I'm against the term "B/C/S." In Bosnia-Herzegovina we
2 all speak the Bosnian language or the Serbian language or the Croatian
3 language. Would you agree with that?
4 A. Yes, I do agree with that.
5 Q. So we're talking about three languages.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. So it's not a Bosno-Croato-Serbian language; is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Thank you very much.
10 A. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will have the
12 break now. But before we have the break, I have a question I'd like to
13 put to Mr. Praljak because the Judges perhaps have a procedural problem.
14 In the course of the cross-examination on the 25th of May you intervened
15 between 13.35 and 13.46. So you have already put questions to the
16 witness. Why do you want to put further questions, since the rule is that
17 once one of the parties has finished cross-examining, that's it?
18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, because simply
19 some new claims have been advanced which I should like to challenge on the
20 basis of a couple of documents, with your permission. If not, then I
21 shall leave it for another opportunity. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll see about that
23 during the break. It's 3.30 p.m., and we will resume in 20 minutes' time.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 3.52 p.m.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, before we authorise
2 you to cross-examine this witness, we'd like to know what sort of
3 questions you'd like to put to the witness and how these questions relate
4 to the subjects raised by the witness. We'd like to know what the
5 relevance of these questions is. We don't want to prevent you from
6 cross-examining the witness, but according to the rules, after the
7 examination-in-chief there's the cross-examination, and once the
8 cross-examination has been concluded, it's not usually possible to
9 cross-examine again. So could you tell us something about the new issues
10 raised and about the questions you'd like to put to this witness.
11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In
12 the series of allegations made during the examination, it was said that
13 the Bosnian army - army of Bosnia-Herzegovina - was founded on the 15th of
14 April, 1992. I wish to demonstrate that that is not true.
15 Twice the witness stated that the Croatian policy was
16 hypocritical, meaning that it was duplicitous, that people meant one
17 thing, did another, and said yet a third thing while pursuing that policy.
18 On the basis of two documents, I wish to demonstrate what Croatia did --
19 had done for Bosnia and Herzegovina, in two of thousands of documents,
20 mind you.
21 Also, the milieu in which the Muslims -- sorry, the encirclement
22 in which the Muslims on the east side of Mostar were after the
23 Croato-Muslim conflict were, has been repeatedly referred to here, so I
24 have a map here to show what extent of territory they had at their
25 disposal and what communications -- communication links towards Jablanica
1 and Konjic were available at the time.
2 In addition to that, I should like to show a document about the
3 dispatch of arms to Sarajevo which Mr. Stojic, Mr. Petkovic, and Mr. -- I
4 had sent and received a citation from the commander Zikic, the commander
5 of the Sarajevo units, thanking us for having dispatched those weapons to
6 them. And I do this with the intention of showing with how much
7 enthusiasm and passion we worked on the joint front of battling the
8 aggressor and to show the extent to which we managed despite the fact that
9 we were unable to find the political solution to end the war conflicts
10 within the period of a year and a half.
11 Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we decide, we believe
14 that with regard to the issue of maps, the three dimensional one that you
15 obtained from Google that pertains to the encirclement, we believe that
16 that might be useful. And then there's the issue of weapons, and
17 according to what you said, there's a document that shows that Sarajevo
18 thanked you for your efforts. So restrict your questions to those
19 matters, because we've discussed the issue of 15th of April a lot.
20 And with regard to the allegations of witness about the
21 duplicitous Croatian policies, well, this is a pure speculation. So do
22 concentrate on the issue of the map and of the weapons, and don't forget
23 that you have only 15 minutes. Please don't use up any more time than
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. There is
2 a mistake, a very important one in the transcript, I think, given your
3 decision to allow Mr. Praljak certain questions. Page 119, line 11, it is
4 Zikic, and it should be Vikic. A "V" is the initial, thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So the name is Vikic
6 and not Zikic.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Praljak. You can put --
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]. Thank you. Can we see the
9 first document. Please move it a bit to the left and up. Thank you.
10 Cross-examination by the accused Praljak:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, would you please take a look at this
12 map. On the top left it says Potoci, and the bottom right corner shows a
13 river, and please show to Their Honours where Mostar is. Zoom in, please.
14 Zoom in. No, no, zoom out. Zoom out. Zoom out. More, please. And
15 more. Thank you. That's good.
16 Mr. Smajkic, would you please point to Mostar.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you have the appropriate pen
18 on you, the appropriate pointer, please use it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this is Potoci here where I
20 pointed with my pen. This is the north part from the road from Sarajevo
21 and towards the city of Mostar.
22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Yes. And then it goes on towards the south. This is the river
25 A. Yes, this is the river Neretva.
1 Q. Would you show Blagaj and the river Buna. This here is the
2 airport. And then go down this way. This is Blagaj here. Right. And
3 then Buna. Right.
4 A. Well, the capital B stands for Blagaj, I expect.
5 Q. Can you please tell Their Honours, how many kilometres are there
6 from Blagaj to Potoci?
7 A. From Blagaj to Mostar it is about 12 kilometres, and then to
8 Potoci thereabouts also; 10 kilometres or so, 12 perhaps.
9 Q. We see the river Neretva here, and the left side, and not only the
10 left side but also the right bank, in this part of Mostar was controlled
11 after the 1993 conflict between the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the
12 HVO, all those parts were controlled by the forces of the army of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The left side of the Neretva, the left bank.
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. We shall agree that from the entrance to the canyon towards
16 Jablanica up to Blagaj there is approximately 30 kilometres. The distance
17 between these two points is approximately 30 kilometres and there are two
18 deep valleys there and the city of Mostar, and on the left there was a
19 substantial part on the right part of the right bank of the Neretva which
20 was under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; am I correct in
21 saying this?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you please now show the other map.
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just add a question? Can you show us,
25 Witness, in which direction does the Neretva flow? Does it flow, seen on
1 the map, from top to bottom, or the other way round?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from top to bottom.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we see the next map,
5 please. Move it a bit -- a bit up and to the left, please. Up and left.
6 Up and left, Ms. Usher. Would you lift the map leftwards. That's it.
7 Thank you very much.
8 Q. Mr. Smajkic, if you please, the arterial highway from Ploce and
9 Metkovic, Capljina and Mostar leads towards Jablanica, Konjic and Sarajevo
10 on the left bank of the Neretva; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And it is controlled by the section which we just referred to, the
13 left bank of the Neretva, under the control of the army of
15 A. In that period?
16 Q. In that period.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Look here on the map above the G, the letter G. There is a small
19 inlet. You can see that. An inlet above the G of the Google, of the word
20 "Google." That's right, there. So we can see that. That is water, of
21 course. That is a lake. That is an inlet of a lake. And across that
22 inlet was the bridge of Bijela which, according to our information, was
23 destroyed by Serbian artillery. Can you see from the satellite image of
24 Google satellite image that there is a road on the left and right -- to
25 the left and right of that inlet, a macadam road which was made when the
1 bridge was erected and which could be used at any time to pass from Mostar
2 towards Jablanica and Konjic? So it was an asphalt road up to the inlet
3 point, and 150 metres there was a macadam road around the inlet, and then
4 again an asphalt road towards Jablanica. Am I saying this correctly?
5 A. I know that there was a detour there. This detour was used by the
6 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This bypass was used by it to establish
7 contact with Jablanica after the bridge was blown up.
8 Q. Right. So we have the asphalt road Sarajevo, Konjic, Jablanica,
9 we have this interruption of the asphalt road, we have 150 metres of
10 macadam road, and then a continued asphalt road on towards Blagaj, Mostar
11 and so on; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. How, then, can we speak about the total encirclement, the total
14 shutting off of Mostar when, in the same position as Mostar was,
15 unfortunately, after our conflict, in the same or worse position were
16 Sarajevo and Bihac and Zepce, Srebrenica too, and Central Bosnia, for that
17 matter, Kiseljak, et cetera? Unfortunately, we had the situation
18 characterised by conflicts and encirclements, but we cannot but say the
19 truth. We have to say that the Mostar area -- we cannot say that the
20 situation in the Mostar and its access and the roads leading outside of
21 Mostar were such that we can speak about the severance of communications
22 to and from Mostar; am I saying the right thing?
23 A. I can't agree with you there. We can speak about that after a
24 breakthrough, after the linking up of Mostar with Bijelo Polje, but until
25 HVO was holding the northern camp during that period and Zalik, that was
1 indeed a big camp. The entire city of Mostar was.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can I clarify a point on the transcript? On page
3 123, line 13, I read we have 150 metres of a macadam road. Should it be
4 metres or should it be kilometres?
5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Metres, sir.
6 Q. Mr. Witness -- Mr. Smajkic, I apologise, was the northern camp,
7 was it taken by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 30th of June, 1993?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can we then speak about this communication being free and
10 accessible as of that date?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So as of that date, it was open, all communication, towards Mostar
13 with this difficult problem of 150 metres of a macadam road?
14 A. Yes. In my assessment, that was the situation.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Can we see the third document, please.
16 Mr. Smajkic, would you be so kind as to read it out, with the
18 A. "Hi, Bruno. It being impossible for us to see each other and hear
19 each other --" zoom out. Zoom out.
20 Q. We can see it quite clearly.
21 A. "It being impossible for us to see and hear each other, I wish in
22 this way to confirm for you receipt of MTS that you sent to my unit and to
23 me. In addition to acknowledging receipt of the same, I also wish to
24 profoundly thank you and to wish you and your family the best of health.
25 Please, in addition to you, convey my gratitude to the gentlemen General
1 Major Slobodan Praljak, to Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic, and to Minister
2 Bozo Rajic. Bruno, in addition to these MTS that you have dispatched to
3 me, I also require the following ..." and then he goes on to enumerate.
4 Q. Thank you. The date, please.
5 A. The 23rd of February, 1993.
6 Q. During this trial, there will be presented thousands of documents
7 of this kind, but from this particular one we can see that there was a
8 continued endeavour to help in each and every place where the aggressor
9 wanted to or could have been successful either vis-a-vis the Muslims or
10 the Croats or the Croats and Muslims together.
11 Mr. Smajkic, do you think that it was very simple just to simply
12 load these things? Do you appreciate how much effort it took, how much
13 ability it took to load this onto trucks and have it reach Sarajevo?
14 A. I'm quite aware of that.
15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for
16 having given me this opportunity.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You are requesting
18 that these two documents be admitted into evidence. The photo isn't a
19 problem, the document hasn't been translated into English. Mr. Kovacic.
20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I was just about to propose that it
21 be conditionally admitted into the file and which shall, of course, ensure
22 the necessary translation. We have asked for it to be made.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as the photograph
24 is concerned, there's no need to have it translated, but on the other
25 hand, as far as the other document is concerned, well, we could mark it
1 for identification.
2 Mr. Registrar, could we have two numbers, please.
3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, seeing that I am on my
4 feet, I should like to tender also into evidence document 3D 00188, which
5 I used in my cross-examination the day before yesterday, and that is a
6 record of the hearing of the same witness in the case IT-98-34-T, from the
7 17th to the 19th of October, 2001.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, we need three
12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. The last document then
13 mentioned by Mr. Kovacic a minute ago will therefore have the tendering
14 date and admission date of today and will be referenced as 3D 00188.
15 As to the two documents used by Mr. Praljak today, I understand
16 the map will be admitted as IC document. It's going to be IC 00022.
17 With respect to the text or the written document, we may want to
18 admit it under IC 00023, marked for identification pending translation to
19 be provided by Mr. Kovacic, I understand. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Jonjic, try and go through a
21 list very rapidly. Mr. Registrar, please take care, because there will be
22 a lot of numbers now.
23 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
24 like to correct the transcript. Page 89, line 8, my question -- not the
25 response by the witness, but my question was inserted incorrectly. This
1 was the list of the directors of -- of elementary and secondary schools in
2 Mostar. It seems that I suggested all were Croats and it should be quite
3 the opposite; it should be Muslims.
4 And now the documents. There are 18 of them, so I think it would
5 be simpler if I say all are proceeded by a 5D mark and the first digit is
6 0, and then the numbers are as follows: 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108,
7 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1091 -- 1091, 1093, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084,
8 1069, and the last one, 1115. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. Indeed we have a
11 series of 18 exhibits. These are tendered and admitted with today's
12 date: 5D 01104, 5D 01105, 5D 01106, 5D 01107, 5D 01108, 5D 01109,
13 5D 01110, 5D 01111, 5D 01112, 5D 01113, 5D 01091, 5D 01093, 5D 01081,
14 5D 01082, 5D 01083, 5D 01084, 5D 01069, 5D 01115. And this completes the
15 list. Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 Before I give the floor to Mr. Scott, I'd just like to comment on the
18 number of exhibits. I'm beginning to be very concerned given the number
19 of exhibits. I'd like to remind you that the Prosecution intended to
20 tender 9.500 documents, but since the beginning of the trial the Defence
21 has tendered an enormous number of documents. And with regard to
22 Mr. Coric's documents, we have 1.115 documents. Not all have been
23 admitted for the moment, but this means that Mr. Coric's Defence believes
24 that they'll have more than a thousand documents to tender into evidence,
25 and this is still the Prosecution stage. When the Defence commence,
1 you'll have a significantly greater number of documents to tender. So
2 we'll be dealing with more than 20.000 documents. That's quite certain.
3 That's why I suggest that when you present your documents, when you tender
4 your documents, be rapid, as Mr. Jonjic was, and we'll then be able to
5 admit documents into evidence more easily. We're following this very
6 closely, and naturally we'll examine everything in detail under a
7 magnifying glass.
8 We have now reached the stage of re-examination. Mr. Scott, let
9 me remind you that re-examination must relate to the questions put in the
10 course of the cross-examination.
11 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. Before I begin, Your
12 Honour, just an observation, and I'm not really casting stones at the
13 Defence because I think everyone in this institution realises the
14 difficulty of translation - I'm not talking about interpretation in the
15 courtroom but the translation of documents - can be. Having said that, a
16 substantial number of Defence documents have not been translated, and of
17 course that makes it virtually impossible for the Prosecution and
18 presumably for most of the Judges to make much sense of these documents or
19 to ask informed questions on the documents when they've not yet been
20 translated, and then the witness of course is gone, and it's very
21 impossible to really deal with the documents adequately in that way.
22 Having said that, Your Honour, my questions to Mufti Smajkic are
23 primarily in the nature of things that he indicated during
24 cross-examination he wanted to clarify and add comments to, and he was
25 repeatedly told during the cross-examination that the Prosecution could
1 give him the opportunity to clarify those matters or address those
2 matters. So based on that, I do indeed want to give him the opportunity
3 to clarify a number of things, but all arising from cross-examination.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Scott:
5 Q. The first of those, Mufti Smajkic, is this: You talked about in
6 direct examination -- or it came up perhaps in cross-examination, excuse
7 me, the appointment of Mr. Jaganjac as the commander of the unified
8 Croat-Muslim forces in connection with the defence for liberation of
9 Mostar. I believe you said in response to Defence question from
10 Mr. Stojic's counsel, most of these people -- excuse me. Most people
11 thought that Mr. Jaganjac's appointment would be helpful, would be a
12 conciliatory gesture, but I want to give you the chance to say did it in
13 fact turn out at that way? Was -- that may have been the intention. What
14 happened in reality?
15 A. That's what I actually stated, and I had a lot of friends and
16 relatives who were in a dilemma. They didn't know whether to join the HVO
17 - and this is the truth - because if they did so, they would have weapons
18 and certain other benefits. However, if they remained in the army, they
19 wouldn't have any weapons, and they wouldn't have everything they would
20 have been provided with had they been in the HVO.
21 What they were concerned with was focusing their efforts on
22 defeating a common enemy. This is why they thought in this way. So they
23 thought, well, they're finally sending us someone from Croatia who was in
24 the Croatian army, at the same time he's a Muslim, so it was a form of
25 reconciliation. That's what people wanted. But I can't really criticise
1 Mr. Jaganjac because he was just carrying out orders. He had a command
2 that was above him. But I'm firmly convinced that this was done to
3 attract armed individuals who might be able to contribute to liberating
4 that territory. They wanted to ensure that they joined the HVO and that,
5 as a result, the armija would be weakened.
6 Q. You also -- it was also pointed out to you in cross-examination
7 that when the Mostar Crisis Staff was disbanded on about the 15th of May,
8 1992, and these separate or new structures, HVO structures, were put into
9 place, it was pointed out to you on a number of documents that some
10 persons who were Muslims were put in various of these positions, and I
11 believe you attempted to say in answer to some questions about this that
12 most of the -- how -- despite the fact that they were originally put in
13 those positions, that they did not remain in those positions very long,
14 but I want to give you a further opportunity to address that. How was
15 that the case, and explain that to the Judges, please.
16 A. Thank you, Mr. Scott, for that question. That's true. I felt
17 very uneasy when Ms. Nozica showed me that document, and I quite simply
18 had to react because that's correct. That is true. There were -- 50 per
19 cent of the staff were Muslims, and there were that many Croats. And
20 Commander Jaganjac was a Muslim, or he was a member of the Muslim Corps.
21 However, our people, the Muslims who were present in that area at the
22 time, had to face incredible problems in that there were disavowals of
23 everything that resembled the sovereignty and territorial integrity of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There's no doubt about this.
25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I object to such an answer because
1 the witness is talking about other people's experiences and the situation
2 they found themselves in and how they reacted to that situation. I think
3 that the witness can testify about what he has personal knowledge about,
4 and if the Prosecution believes that it's necessary to provide further
5 arguments, they can use other witnesses to demonstrate or to prove the
6 sort of situation they were in. The witness cannot comment on such
7 things. Thank you very much.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but may I add
9 something, Ms. Nozica. These gentlemen brought copies of resignations
10 from these positions. Apart from the resignation of Mr. Hadziosmanovic,
11 they provided me with such copies. I'm not inventing anything.
12 MR. SCOTT:
13 Q. And if you know -- I'm not asking you to speculate, but based on
14 what you've just said, if you know, why were the Muslims who were
15 initially named to some of these positions by the HVO, why were they
16 resigning from these positions?
17 A. They resigned for the simple reason that anti-Bosnian policies
18 were being pursued. What was at stake was implementing a programme
19 achieving objectives established on the 18th of November, 1991, and that
20 objective was the establishment of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.
21 Q. All right, sir. I'm going to move forward, because I don't want
22 to take too much additional time this afternoon, to the question of your
23 appointment -- or recommendation, I should say, of this man who became a
24 cleric in the Muslim forces in the Mostar area. And I want to make sure
25 that's as clear as possible. And it may assist if the registry could
1 please show the witness -- or please display Exhibit 2D 00013.
2 And while that's being done, to remind you, Mufti Smajkic, and the
3 courtroom what was said in particular about this, Mr. Kovacic read to you
4 -- put this question to you: "Mr. Arif Pasalic or someone --" this is at
5 page 2634 of the transcript. "Mr. Arif Pasalic or someone else asked me
6 who would be responsible for the appointment. I then contacted some
7 people in Zenica as well as Mr. Mahmut Rajlic [phoen], who was the
8 commander --" and then the interpreters corrected that, not the commander
9 but who was the Emir of the 7th Brigade. If you recall those questions
10 and answers with Mr. Kovacic. Now, if you look -- if you have now in
11 front of you 2D 00013. I just want to make sure there is no confusion in
12 the courtroom. The person that you appointed to this clerical position,
13 this was someone in the Mostar Muslim forces?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. You did not appoint anyone who was a member of the 7th Muslim
17 A. We didn't appoint anyone, nor were there any foreigners in that
19 Q. When you say "that unit," which unit are you referring to?
20 A. I'm referring to the unit in which we appointed Nemir Ibrahimovic,
21 this Muslim forces unit.
22 Q. In Mostar.
23 A. In Mostar.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction of the name: Mimic
1 MR. SCOTT:
2 Q. Sir, a number of questions were put to you by various Defence
3 counsel about this publication called "Instructions to the Muslim
4 Fighter." Once again, there are a number of times when you attempted to
5 give a broader explanation of various points made, and I simply want to
6 give you an opportunity clarify anything that was put to you in relation
7 to the publication "Instructions to the Muslim Fighter."
8 A. Thank you. And I'd like to thank the Chamber too. I can't really
9 say that my convictions were in some way unsettled, but I do know some
10 people, Halil Mehtic, Hasan Mekic, and certain other individuals who were
11 active, and if they drafted a text or a brochure, given their
12 qualifications and their moral positions, I don't believe they could have
13 drafted some sort of a text that would have spread hatred and animosity
14 towards someone else. The very title "Instructions to the Muslim Fighter"
15 demonstrates that these are suggestions that concern a moral code for
16 Muslim fighters. They're told not to steal, to act in a disciplined way,
17 to demonstrate solidarity, concern, et cetera, et cetera. And above all,
18 they're strictly ordered not to kill women, the elderly, children. They
19 mustn't destroy places of worship, et cetera. So these are general
20 civilised standards of behaviour.
21 In one of the sentences in the text, and responding to Mr. Praljak
22 to an extent, in one of the sentences it's not a fight against
23 non-Muslims. And I'm glad I've found this part. It says that the
24 greatest jihad is to tell a leader, a despot, a man of power, that he is
25 wrong and that he is not acting properly.
1 You can find that sentence in that text, and you have got this
2 document on your list as one of the documents that is to be translated.
3 So it's not matter of encouraging people or fighters to kill.
4 It's more a matter of avoiding unnecessary acts. If weapons can be kept
5 silent, they should be kept silent. They should not be used. War is war,
6 and when people are arrested, certain things happen. In all armies there
7 are differences between releasing prisoners, exchanging prisoners,
8 requesting ransoms, and in extreme and rare cases the court-martials that
9 can process certain cases and mete out the death penalty. But this
10 doesn't concern this first area I was talking about.
11 After the instructions on behaviour, it says that these
12 suggestions that Muslim fighters have to adhere to. However, if certain
13 things happen, then you have to act in certain ways. When arresting
14 individuals when they're -- acts of the slaughter are carried out, when
15 very serious crimes are committed in the course of military operations,
16 then there is a particular law that comes into force, that is valid, and
17 this naturally concerns Muslim states. But we were not concerned; we
18 didn't have such intentions.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak is on his feet.
20 Usually in the course of the re-examination there should not be any other
21 interventions, but, Mr. Praljak, what is the problem?
22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, I never
23 commented at all on the "Instructions to the Muslim Fighters." I said on
24 the basis of the documents shown to this Court and in this court, the
25 Muderiz Brigade, in its structure, in its line-ups, always uttered the
1 following words: "All of you together: Whom are you fighting for?" The
2 response was: "For Allah." And then the next question to the brigade
3 was: "Against whom are you fighting?" The Muderiz Brigade replied:
4 "Against the Vlahs." So I just provided an explanation which I think was
5 in order, that in Bosnia and Herzegovina the concept of the Vlahs
6 encompassed Catholics and Orthodox, the Orthodox. I'm not talking in
7 general terms. This referred to the Muderiz Brigade specifically. Thank
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You've already said
10 that, though.
11 Mr. Scott, please proceed.
12 MR. SCOTT: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 1D 00428.
13 Q. Do you have that, sir?
14 A. No. Yes, I see it.
15 Q. All right. As a reminder, sir, this is a letter that apparently,
16 according to the Defence, Mr. Boban wrote on the 17th of May, 1992. Can
17 you assist the Judges, Mufti Smajkic, by saying, to your knowledge, was
18 this letter written by Mr. Boban, was this written after there had been an
19 international outcry and rejection of the secret bilateral talks between
20 Karadzic and Boban?
21 A. I think so. I think that it was.
22 Q. Mr. Karnavas this morning showed you some documents about the --
23 or at least a document - perhaps several - about the names -- streets, the
24 changing of names of streets and other names in Mostar. And can you
25 assist the Judges, please, just -- apart from what the documents said on
1 their face, did that in fact happen? That is, were these names actually
2 -- and street signs and names actually changed pursuant to the documents
3 that Mr. Karnavas showed you, if you know or can recall?
4 A. I know, I do know. This did not happen in practice in this
5 section, in this part of the city.
6 Q. Can the --
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying you don't
8 contest the documents Mr. Karnavas showed you, but in reality, there were
9 no positive effects as a result of this change.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some changes did take place in the
11 west part of the city, whereas in the so-called eastern part of the city
12 the names of streets were not changed, and that is the truth. We did not
13 want to do that, Your Honours, precisely because we were committed to
14 preserving the unity of the city. We wanted to reach an agreement in some
16 Of course, in the west part of the city there were also some names
17 with some Muslim dignitaries, some street names bearing the names of
18 Muslim dignitaries, not all Bolsheviks, as they say. So somebody perhaps
19 might object to that -- those streets having such names.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So based on the documents we saw
21 this morning, we had the impression that they were Bolsheviks, but you
22 said, no, they were not just Bolsheviks.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
24 MR. SCOTT:
25 Q. If the witness could next be shown, please, Exhibit 1D 00382. If
1 we could see that, please. Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm just
2 double-checking the reference.
3 Just as an example, sir, Mr. Karnavas showed you also a series of
4 documents about the appointments of various Muslims as schoolteachers or
5 various other positions, and once again, Mr. Karnavas said if anyone --
6 anything more needed to be said, the Prosecution would give you an
7 opportunity to address that, so I want to do so.
8 So is there anything more you want to say about the appointments
9 of various Muslims as schoolteachers or other positions as reflected in
10 the documents Mr. Karnavas showed?
11 A. Thank you, Mr. Scott. You just read my thoughts. I think that
12 this is -- it is of decisive importance to know this. We have not come
13 here to try and outwit one another, because in the documents you can find
14 this and you can find that.
15 I am a homegrown person, a person of the people, and I know. I'm
16 familiar with these things much more than other people are. So believe
17 me, just like in the case of the appointment of the first government in
18 which the Muslims -- to which the Muslims and the Bosniaks were appointed,
19 believe me in this particular instance, and I stand by this, invoking my
20 oath: You could see that in 1991 and 1992, 19 -- and these two years,
21 most of the principals of schools were indeed Muslims, but it is important
22 to know that the Croats had relocated their children from Mostar as a war
23 zone and had their children educated either in Western Herzegovina or in
24 Croatia. So it is only logical that the authorities were -- organised
25 things in this way later. However, there was a transformation, and I can
1 say that these -- this Muslim personnel was removed from their positions
2 en masse.
3 Q. All right, sir. Mostly a point of clarification: In questioning
4 today that had to do with the time period April, 1993, in one of your
5 answers you said -- you made reference to -- that the army of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina was established on the 15th of April. Now, can you
7 tell the Judges whether that -- were you referring then at that moment to
8 the celebration of the one-year anniversary or that the army was created
9 in 1993?
10 A. I can tell you exactly what this is about. Namely, it is possible
11 that there was a discrepancy, that there was -- there were differences as
12 to which date to take and whom which date suited, whether it was the
13 defence, the Territorial Defence, the Patriotic League, or the Independent
14 Battalion, and so on. But let me repeat first and foremost: I'm not a
15 soldier, but I was around these people as well as around politicians,
16 because simply the times were such. This was a struggle of a people for
17 bare survival, and it was about saving human lives. I know, because I
18 attended the ceremony marking the day of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
19 and that was the 15th of April. So the 15th of April is the day which
20 commemorates that date. This year we attended the ceremony as well.
21 I wish to say that it was precisely on that date that the HVO made
22 a show of force in the east part of the city, pulling in formidable
23 hardware into the city, tanks and multi-barrel rocket launchers and what
24 have you, which were hooked up to tracks, vehicles, and mortars and such.
25 All that meant to associate people to that 15th of April date as the date
1 the army was formed.
2 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but this is
3 supposed to be a redirect examination, and what's happening here is that
4 Mr. Scott is asking completely open-ended questions, allowing the witness
5 to make a speech that often has no relevance whatsoever to the question,
6 and, Your Honours, since we have very little opportunity, if any, to
7 respond at this point, it's a completely inappropriate way to conduct a
8 redirect examination.
9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I will agree on this particular occasion
10 Mr. Smajkic's answer is probably a bit longer than it needed to be. Let
11 me repeat my original question and I will indeed ask Mr. Smajkic to be as
12 responsive as possible.
13 Q. Sir, I just simply wanted you to clarify. You said just a moment
14 ago again that the formation of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is
15 celebrated each year on the 15th of April, and can you just tell the
16 Judges, what was the first year -- what was the date, the 15th of April of
17 what year when the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was first established?
18 A. Well, the date that was officially taken - of course, I'm no
19 expert on the issue - but the official date of its establishment was that.
20 Of course, there existed different units before and after that during the
21 resistance period, but that was taken as the official date.
22 Q. Mr. Smajkic, I'll try one more time, and if we don't get it I'll
23 move on. All I'm asking from you is to clarify the year, because earlier
24 today that was said in context of 1993. I want to make sure there was no
25 confusion. In what year -- 15th of April in what year was the army of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina established?
2 A. 1992. 1992.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To be quite clear, the army was
4 created in 1992, and on the 15th of April, 1993, there was an anniversary.
5 Is that what you are saying?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now it's clear for
9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. You did it much better than
10 I did.
11 Q. If I could ask the witness to be shown Exhibit 5D 01083. And this
12 is my one of last two or three questions.
13 Let me know when you have that, sir.
14 A. I can see it now.
15 Q. If you can -- if the registry can go -- move down into the -- some
16 of the text of that document so we can just refresh ...
17 Let me direct -- if I can direct the registry's attention, I don't
18 know -- it's page 373 of the B/C/S version. I don't have an ERN number.
19 It should be about the fourth or fifth page of the document. I'm sorry.
20 Could we go to 5D -- there are multiple excerpts from the same book.
21 Could you give me 5D 01083 -- 84, excuse me.
22 And just in looking at that as we're looking, we'll go to another
23 page in a moment, but are you familiar with this publication? At any time
24 have you seen this publication prior to today?
25 A. Your Honours, I've never seen this before.
1 Q. I'm directing your attention to the page that's on the screen now,
2 the reference to Mr. Muftic and an excerpt that was given concerning
3 Mr. Muftic and at least in the English translation it refers to Mr. Muftic
4 as a leader of a terrorist group. Now, do you have any information apart
5 from what it says on the face of this page whether that's true information
6 or an accurate characterisation or not?
7 A. Thank you for this opportunity. In response to a question from
8 the Defence, I said that I had never seen that book before, which is what
9 I told you, but in trials before Yugoslav courts at that time, 10
10 individuals from this group were shot in front of a firing squad, and this
11 was a matter that couldn't be publicly discussed, it couldn't be openly
13 I haven't read this, but superficially I could say that people
14 involved in investigations obtained by force declarations from these 10
15 individuals who were publicly executed.
16 Q. Sir, I'm going to cut you a little short again to avoid objections
17 by counsel and use our time wisely. Just specifically let me ask you this
18 in light of what you've already said: When did this execution occur?
19 When were these men killed by firing squad as you've just indicated?
20 A. Between 1947 to 1949. From 1947 to 1949, that's the period.
21 Q. And, sir, various things that Mr. Jonjic showed you in these
22 documents after document after document, do you have any reason to
23 believe, for example, that this document has anything to do with anything
24 that happened in Mostar in 1992 or 1993?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And final question, sir: Mr. Coric asked you some questions about
2 the removal of democratically elected persons and specifically the removal
3 of Mr. Hadziosmanovic from one of his positions. Can you just clarify for
4 the Judges, please: The removal of Mr. Hadziosmanovic, was that from a
5 political-- internal political party position or was that from a position
6 as an elected public official?
7 A. He was appointed by the SDA party leadership. He wasn't elected
8 at the first democratic elections. To be 100 per cent precise, I would
9 say that Mr. Tarik Muftic, a surgeon from Mostar, was the first SDA
10 president in Mostar. He had political ambitions. He was an elderly man.
11 But then Mr. Hadziosmanovic took over. And naturally we didn't have the
12 right to replace him, but we informed his superiors that what he was doing
13 was not correct. As citizens represented by him, we thought it was our
14 right to object to individuals who represented the certain party or the
15 interests of the Muslims in a political sense.
16 And since this is very important, Mr. Hadziosmanovic was president
17 of the SDA Municipal Board and of the Regional Board. So we had
18 objections from towns, from the region of Bosnia-Herzegovina, from Prozor,
19 Konjic, Jablanica, Stolac, et cetera. This was not acceptable. There
20 were these lobbies -- there was this lobbying. So they contacted the
21 mufti, who was some figure of authority, in order to try to have him
22 removed, at least from that position.
23 Q. Thank you, Mufti. Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usually after re-examination
25 there should be no more interventions unless it's for some exceptional
1 reason. In that case, you should ask for our leave. Yes.
2 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking for your leave to ask
3 some questions that concern two questions put by the Prosecution, and it
4 concerns the appointment of school principals. I have documents that
5 relate to this. I want to refer to certain parts of the decision
6 concerning changing the names of streets in Mostar, and this hasn't so far
7 been dealt with.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We don't really see why that
10 would be important. You've shown documents -- you showed documents in the
11 course of your cross-examination, numerous documents which everyone
12 followed. When re-examining the witness, the Prosecution asked the
13 witness whether the names were all Bolshevik names or whether they were
14 Muslim names too. The witness said they were Muslim ones. So does your
15 question cast any doubt on -- on the answer?
16 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] The reason for changing the names
17 of the street in the decision, and they are mentioned in the decision,
18 will cast light on his testimony. As far as appointing directors of
19 schools in Mostar is concerned --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, please put your questions
21 to the witness, but very rapidly.
22 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I first go through the
23 documents. It will be very quick.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have the document.
25 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Could the usher show
1 document 1D 00503.
2 Further cross-examination by Ms. Tomanovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, you can see a decision on appointing
4 an acting director of the school in Blagaj. Can you read out his name.
5 A. Mr. Akif Balalic.
6 Q. He's a Muslim, is he?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you please read out the date of the decision.
9 A. The 11th of February, 1993.
10 Q. Thank you. Could I see the next document, please.
11 A. Blagaj is --
12 Q. Please, don't forget that I'm in charge of these questions.
13 Could we see the following document: 1D 00502.
14 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we have a problem with the
15 e-court, I have a hard copy for the ELMO.
16 Q. Mr. Smajkic, you can see a decision on appointing an acting
17 director of the 4th Primary School in Mostar. Can you read out the name
18 of the person. Please read out his name.
19 A. I will. Muslija Jugo. We've seen this.
20 Q. No, we haven't. Is he a Muslim?
21 A. Yes, he is.
22 Q. Could you read out the date. When was he appointed?
23 A. On the 8th of April, 1993.
24 Q. Thank you. Could I see the next document, 1 --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have two new
1 documents here and two new names. We have the date April, 1993. What was
2 the purpose of the exercise? Put the question to him immediately.
3 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] The purpose is since Mr. Smajkic
4 said that all the directors of the primary schools were replaced later on,
5 well, we never -- he never defined when this occurred, and I want to
6 show --
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, put a direct question to
8 him. I'll do it.
9 You said that there were appointments of Muslim directors, Muslim
10 principals, and they were replaced or dismissed later on. So when would
11 you say that they were dismissed? You've been shown documents showing
12 that they were appointed in April. So when would you say that these
13 individuals were dismissed?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are purely Muslim areas.
15 Blagaj, where Akif Balalic was the director, is an area in which only
16 Muslims live, and that is the case for the 4th Muslim -- the 4th Mostar
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We want to know whether the
19 teachers who were appointed, the Muslim ones, remained in their positions
20 or were they dismissed? Defence counsel wants to show that they were not
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps there were re-elections.
23 Perhaps they were there and they remained there in those positions,
24 because those areas were Muslim areas.
25 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Could you just tell me, with regard to this decision, who signed
2 the decision that you have on the screen now?
3 A. Mr. Topic.
4 Q. And Mr. Topic was the president of?
5 A. The president of the HVO.
6 Q. Thank you very much. If we can now go back to the decision on
7 appointing and -- on -- the document concerned is 1D 00462, and it's the
8 document on changing the names on the streets. We can use the ELMO.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We've got it.
10 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is not on the screen. At
11 least, not on mine.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's on the screen now.
13 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Smajkic, if you can -- if you can please just scroll this
15 document down a bit. In fact, can the document be moved up a bit? A bit
16 more down, so that we can see the entire paragraph number II.
17 Mr. Smajkic, would you please read out paragraph number II,
18 paragraph number II of this decision.
19 A. You mean this, "The individual ..."
20 Q. Yes, I mean that.
21 A. "The individual restoration of the earlier designations, the
22 renaming and the name of streets and processes shall be a lengthy process
23 which the commission shall undertake on a continuous basis and for which
24 it is eliciting the ideas -- soliciting the ideas, proposals and
25 assistance of the citizens of Mostar and other citizens of the Croatian
1 Community of Herceg-Bosna which may be forwarded in written form to the
2 address of the Croatian Defence Council of Mostar municipality." Shall I
3 go on?
4 Q. Yes, please do, the next sentence.
5 A. "To the commission for naming and renaming of the streets and
6 squares in Mostar municipality. By renaming the streets and squares, we
7 wish to return to the citizens of Mostar -- we wish to repay the citizens
8 of Mostar for we have never accepted the names of those who -- whose sons
9 and grandsons destroyed the city."
10 Q. Do you agree with me that this decision was intended for the
11 citizens of Mostar?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no more
15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for giving
16 me this opportunity. I just have one question when I have this
17 opportunity. Can ask you for your leave to ask a question regarding the
18 practical application of the instructions given in the booklet
19 "Instructions to an Islamic Fighter"?
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, ma'am.
21 Further cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, today in reference to the first
23 section of the book which are some -- which is actually moral guidance to
24 the Islamic fighter, you said that the second section was intended for
25 those who were to act so only in the case of extreme -- in the case of
1 extreme necessity. So I'm going to ask you, do you know that during the
2 war in Bosnia and Herzegovina this provision was at all applied by ritual
3 killings of prisoners? Do you know of any such instances? Of course the
4 provision of this booklet.
5 A. I heard about one or two cases.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this concludes your
9 testimony. I thank you for coming to The Hague on a number of occasions,
10 but it was necessary. I wish you a safe trip home, and I will now ask the
11 usher to escort you out of the courtroom.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now give Defence for Prlic
14 -- for Mr. Prlic the floor. They want to -- or Defence counsel wants to
15 tender some documents into evidence. Please go ahead.
16 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D 00502, and 1D 00504 are the two
17 documents I wish to tender.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Those two exhibits
20 will be therefore be tendered and admitted with today's date and the
21 following references: The first one is 1D 00502, and expectedly, the
22 second one is 1D 00504. Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll go back --
24 we'll move into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 3019-3029 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're back in open session,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now that we are in open session,
25 the hearing is adjourned, and the next hearing will be held on the date
1 that I've already mentioned, thank you.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.35 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day
4 of June, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.