Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9032

1 Friday, 27 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Case

8 number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber has four oral

10 decisions to render, three in open session, one in private session, and

11 then I will turn to Mr. Praljak.

12 First decision with regard to the admission into evidence of

13 exhibits in relation to Witness BX who appeared on 25th of October, 2006.

14 The Chamber will now be stating its position with regard to the

15 admissibility of exhibits concerning Witness BX. The Chamber will admit

16 the following exhibits presented by the Prosecution since they have

17 certain probative value and certain relevance: P 09710 under seal will be

18 admitted. P 01371. In addition, the Chamber decides to admit 3D 00474

19 presented by the Defence representing Mr. Praljak, since this exhibit has

20 both probative value and relevance.

21 Second oral decision concerning admission into evidence of

22 documents concerning Witness BV. The Chamber will state its position with

23 regard to the admission into evidence of these exhibits of the witness who

24 appeared on the 18th and 19th of October. The Chamber will admit the

25 following exhibits presented by the Prosecution since they have both a

Page 9033

1 certain probative value and certain relevance. P 01326, P 01371, P 01413,

2 P 01636, P 09146, P 09724 under seal. In addition, the Chamber will admit

3 the following exhibits presented by the Defence given that they have

4 certain probative value and relevance: 3D 00467 under seal.

5 The Chamber, however, will not admit an exhibit presented by the

6 Defence for Praljak, Mr. Praljak, the number of which hasn't yet been

7 disclosed to the Chamber since it hasn't been filed. It hasn't been

8 registered in the Ringtail database.

9 Third decision concerning the joint motion of the Defence for the

10 Prosecution to complete the chart of the 4th of September required by the

11 order of the 3rd of November, 2005. In the motion dated the 2nd of

12 October, 2006, the Defence asked the Chamber to order the Prosecution to

13 complete the list of exhibits and witnesses filed on the 4th of October,

14 2006, in accordance with the order dated the 30th of November, 2005. The

15 Prosecution responded and provided various reasons to justify the fact

16 that certain information was missing.

17 At the pre-trial stage, after the preliminary motions had been

18 dealt with, the Pre-Trial Judge asked the Prosecution to present 65 ter

19 lists of witnesses and exhibits in a chart. The chart was not supposed to

20 add information in the indictment since this issue had already been dealt

21 with. It was a matter of establishing a link between witnesses and the

22 exhibits and precise information concerning the charges and responsibility

23 of the accused in the amended indictment.

24 The Chamber familiarised itself with the chart of the 4th of

25 September, 2006, and would like to note that the Prosecution has taken

Page 9034

1 certain steps and mentioned or has referred to most of the information

2 that was missing and was required. Naturally, the chart could have been

3 more complete, and one could have included the dates and the perpetrators

4 or groups of perpetrators involved in the events referred to in the

5 indictment. However, at this stage of the proceedings the Chamber

6 believes that it is not necessary for the Prosecution to provide more

7 ample information regarding the chart, given the fact that one is aware of

8 the burden of work they have.

9 However, the Chamber invites the Prosecution, when making its

10 case, to emphasise certain aspects in the indictment. For example, when

11 witnesses are called to testify with regard to Count 1 in the indictment,

12 crime of prosecution -- of persecution, the Prosecution must use these

13 witnesses and the exhibits used to underline which perpetrators are

14 concerned and to underline the dates concerned.

15 As a result, the Chamber rejects the joint motion of the Defence

16 and invites the Prosecution to show due diligence when making its case by

17 identifying the charges, the events that have been alleged in the

18 indictment more precisely.

19 And I would just like to note something myself. When witnesses

20 appear, the Chamber would like the Prosecution to ensure that the

21 witnesses state who the perpetrators of the crimes are, if that is

22 possible, and to specify the dates. If the Prosecution isn't in a

23 position to do this, the Chamber will do this.

24 Decision, oral decision number four, but now we will open into

25 open -- into private session.

Page 9035

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Page 9036











11 Pages 9036-9063 redacted. Private session.















Page 9064

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18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

21 Mr. President.

22 MR. BOS:

23 Q. Witness, did there come a time in January 1993 that the village of

24 Dusa was attacked by shells?

25 A. Yes, there was shelling.

Page 9065

1 Q. Do you remember the date when -- when Dusa was shelled?

2 A. No, I don't remember the dates.

3 Q. Do you know who shelled the village?

4 A. Well, yes. The HVO.

5 Q. And how do you know it was the HVO?

6 A. Well, we knew. We were already in the basement, so guards had

7 been set up. It couldn't have been anyone else.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak up a

9 little.

10 MR. BOS: Maybe we could have both microphones on.

11 Q. Witness, you will have to move a bit closer to the microphone

12 because the interpreters have a difficulty hearing you.

13 Did this attack came as a surprise to you and the other villagers?

14 A. Well, yes, because we really didn't think they would attack us as

15 there were these joint guards. We didn't really believe there would be

16 such a conflict between the Croats and the Muslims.

17 Q. Now you've said before that you know it was the HVO because "we

18 were already in the basement and guards had been set up." Does that mean

19 that before the attack took place there was already indications that --

20 that something was going to happen?

21 A. Well, yes. There was this first clash in June 1992, the first

22 clash with the Croats, and then they parted ways. They no longer had

23 these joint guards. The armija had its own guards, and the Croats had

24 their own guards. That was the first clash in 1992. The attack lasted

25 for an hour and a half.

Page 9066

1 Q. But, Witness, what I was actually referring to is -- is again

2 January 1993. You said that your village was shelled but that already in

3 the days before there were indications that something was going to happen,

4 and I would like you to ask -- to say a bit more about that period of

5 time. So just prior to the -- to the shelling.

6 Let me just ask you, when was it first became apparent to you and

7 the other villagers that -- that something was going to happen in -- in

8 the region in January 1993?

9 A. The army knew, but they didn't want to talk about it in detail.

10 They didn't want to frighten us and tell us that something was expected to

11 happen in 1993.

12 Q. When you say "the army," which army are you referring to?

13 A. Well, the army that had organised itself in Dusa, the guards that

14 were there and were observing what was being done on the other side. They

15 said that the HVO was digging in, that they were bringing in heavy

16 weapons, and that they noticed that there would be a conflict between the

17 armija and the HVO.

18 Q. Talking about the army that organised itself in Dusa, who were

19 these men? Were these local men or also people from outside Dusa?

20 A. No. They were local men. It was a small village. There can't

21 have been more man 20 men because there were quite a few elderly people in

22 Uzricje, Dusa, that was one area. They linked up, from Uzricje to Dusa.

23 Q. Did they have weapons?

24 A. They only had rifles. They didn't have any heavy weapons. They

25 didn't even have much ammunition. They had these rifles and they only had

Page 9067

1 some bullets. They had nothing else.

2 Q. Now, you said that the local men from Dusa were saying that --

3 observing that the HVO was digging in and that they were bringing in heavy

4 weapons. Did you yourself see any -- any of that, that the HVO was

5 bringing in heavy weapons or was preparing for some sort of attack?

6 A. I didn't personally see that. When groups arrived or they talk

7 about these things that I as a woman didn't see this, but there were the

8 troops that were there, and they'd talk about these things. These were

9 people who saw what was happening. They saw things being brought in. But

10 we had been encircled. We couldn't get out.

11 Q. So you're saying you've been -- you were encircled. Now, could

12 you yourself see that you were encircled?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Excuse me, Your Honour.

14 The question as it's being posed at this point is assuming a fact that's

15 not in evidence. I don't believe she said --

16 MR. BOS: Well, she said herself --

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, sir. Let me make my record.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, don't interrupt

19 the pace. As I said a while ago, we want to know who did what, who was

20 there. This is what will be referred to in the Judgement. We're wasting

21 time. We have to go to the crux of the matter.

22 We need to know the following: She said there were heavy weapons.

23 The Prosecutor asked her whether she had seen these heavy weapons. She

24 said no. So it's hearsay. And now we have to move on.

25 If you break the pace for procedural reasons, I'm going to have to

Page 9068

1 put the question to the witness myself, and the situation will be

2 identical when you call your own witnesses.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, it's not a procedure. He's

4 paraphrasing what he believes the witness stated. I'm not trying to break

5 the flow. She said she didn't observe. I think we need to take it step

6 by step, and he should not be assuming a fact that's not in evidence.

7 That's my objection.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You're quite right

9 about that point.

10 Mr. Bos, please put brief questions to the witness so that we can

11 move on.

12 MR. BOS:

13 Q. Witness, how -- how did you and the other civilians react to what

14 was happening in the region at the time? You said that the men were

15 preparing a defence. What -- what did you do?

16 A. We were sitting in the basement. We were afraid. We saw that

17 there was no way out because the defence wasn't sufficiently good for them

18 to be able to defend themselves. We were just waiting to see what would

19 happen.

20 Q. Now, you're saying, "We were sitting in the basement." Who are

21 you referring to? Was that just you or were there other civilians in the

22 basement as well?

23 A. All the civilians were sitting there in the basement. Those who

24 had livestock would go out in the night to feed them and then they'd

25 return to sleep in the basement. And as I said, we were waiting to see

Page 9069

1 what would happen, and the worst happened.

2 Q. And when you say "all of the civilians," can you give a number?

3 How many people are we talking about then?

4 A. Well, there were about 65 of them. I didn't count them, but

5 perhaps there were even more of them. There were some in another house,

6 too, so perhaps there were even more of them.

7 Q. You said, "We were waiting to see what would happen, and the worst

8 happened." Now, I would like to talk to you about -- about -- about that.

9 What happened on -- on the day of the shelling? And maybe just describe

10 from the start. What -- of what your experiences on that day?

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos, Mr. Karnavas could have

12 stood up; he hasn't done so. But she said, "We were expecting the worst."

13 You said, "What about shelling?" You could have asked her, "What is the

14 worst?" She would then have said, "It's shelling." That's how we could

15 have proceeded.

16 We'll deal with this question after the break. It's now 10.35.

17 We'll have a 20-minute break and we will resume at about 11.00 -- about

18 five to 11.00.

19 Madam, during the break you can make a sketch of your house on a

20 piece of paper, and to the extent that it's possible you should mark the

21 level at which the basement was, the first floor, the second floor.

22 We will resume at five to 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos, please try and move on

Page 9070

1 more rapidly, because we are short of time.

2 MR. BOS:

3 Q. Witness, you were asked to make a drawing of your -- a sketch of

4 the house. I see you've drawn up a sketch.

5 MR. BOS: Could we please put that on the ELMO so that everyone

6 can see the sketch.

7 Q. Can you just explain because there's a couple of words written

8 probably in B/C/S. What does the word "podrum" mean?

9 A. The word "podrum" means the basement. That was where we had taken

10 shelter. And then above we have the first floor, and then we have the

11 balcony which stretched from one side of the house to the other. The

12 balcony and terrace.

13 Q. What we see here is the front of the house; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. BOS: If we can move on, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could you put your

17 initials on the piece of paper.

18 Mr. Bos, you would like this document to be admitted into

19 evidence?

20 MR. BOS: [Previous translation continues] ... be given an IC

21 number and I think it will be IC 67.

22 Q. And, Witness, maybe you could just --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar IC 67 under seal.

24 THE REGISTRAR: IC 67 under seal.

25 MR. BOS:

Page 9071

1 Q. Maybe you could put your initials and the date in the right-hand

2 corner of the sketch.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. 27 October. Initials, or name. It's okay.

5 MR. BOS: If we could put this under seal, Your Honour. That's

6 okay.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's been done.

8 MR. BOS:

9 Q. Now, Witness, before the break you said that the worst happened to

10 you. Where were you when the worst happened?

11 A. In the basement.

12 Q. And who was with you?

13 A. All the other civilians were with us.

14 Q. Can you describe in your own words what happened on that day?

15 A. The night was very calm, very quiet. In the morning the situation

16 was the same. It was quiet. You couldn't hear any shots being fired, but

17 people were still afraid because it was so quiet.

18 We talked about certain things, wondered whether something was

19 being prepared. Everyone was afraid. No one told us anything about what

20 was going on. They couldn't leave the lines to tell us about the

21 situation.

22 In the morning I went up to the floor to fetch something. Quite

23 by chance I looked out of the window from the balcony and across the road

24 you could see two tanks that had taken up position. I returned

25 immediately. I was afraid. I returned to the basement. I told them what

Page 9072

1 I had seen. And I didn't leave the basement again because I was scared.

2 So I didn't leave the basement.

3 Q. Then what happened? Please continue to describe what happened.

4 A. After that, I'm afraid I've forgotten the exact time. It was all

5 so shocking. It was very quiet before that, so I don't know exactly when

6 it was that shells started falling. We started counting them, one, two,

7 three, four, and one hit the basement. And then there was chaos,

8 wounding. The civilians who were not wounded --

9 Q. Let me just interrupt you there. You say then a shell hit the

10 basement. What -- what happened to you when the shell hit the basement?

11 A. I was wounded, and I don't remember after that. When I regained

12 consciousness, I know that the basement was full of people, so I can't

13 remember exactly what happened to the others, where the civilians were.

14 There was a man crying. His wife had been killed. His daughter was

15 there.

16 Q. Let me stop you there again. You said you were wounded. Can you

17 describe to the Court what kind of wounds you obtained?

18 A. I -- I was wounded in the head and the jaw. Two teeth were broken

19 and so on.

20 Q. Take your time, Witness. Maybe just take a little bit of water.

21 Witness, you said that you saw a man who was crying. Do you know

22 the name of this person?

23 A. Yes. Abid Behlo, who was crying, he was carrying his wife and

24 child. I tried getting up to see whether it was my children, but he

25 said, "No, it's my wife and daughter."

Page 9073

1 Then I went to the other corner of the basement and there was a

2 girl in a very serious condition lying there, and her father, Ceho Salih,

3 was also badly wounded. They were asking for water. His daughter was

4 asking for water, for me to give her some.

5 And then our soldiers heard the screams. They withdrew from the

6 lines and they came to help, to help the civilians.

7 Q. Let me just stop you there. Just to go back a bit, you've

8 identified the person who was crying as Abid Behlo.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said that he was carrying his wife and child. The name of

11 this -- of this wife and child?

12 A. Sabaha and Mirsada. And his son was killed, Mirsad, about 20

13 metres away from the house.

14 Q. Was this Abid Behlo and -- were they inhabitants of Upper Dusa?

15 A. No. They were from Paloc. They were in the Croatian part. And

16 during the night they were afraid, and they came and joined us in the

17 basement.

18 Q. Now, you said, "Our soldiers heard the screams and they withdrew

19 from the lines and came to help the civilians." Let me just ask you a

20 question. So at the time these shells were hitting the house, were any of

21 the men or the soldiers in the house at the time?

22 A. No. There wasn't a single soldier there, only the older people

23 and the wounded. There may have been four or five old men, but not a

24 single soldier in the house.

25 Q. So what happened when they withdrew the lines and came to help?

Page 9074

1 A. They came to save us, to see who was wounded, to help them,

2 because we didn't have any first aid bandages. Then they found something

3 in the house, some white sheets which they tore up, and they extended aid

4 and bandaged all of us, and then they stayed for a while. I don't know

5 how long. Then they removed the dead bodies. They put them in the

6 basement.

7 Q. Witness, you've been referring to dead bodies. Do you know the

8 persons who got killed on that day?

9 A. I do, of course. I told you Sabaha Behlo; her daughter Mirsada;

10 son Mirsad; Fatka Gudic; Enisa Behlo, who was pregnant, two or three

11 months pregnant; Muamer Zulum who died there, he was a 14-year-old boy;

12 Salih Ceho who died in hospital from the wounds he suffered.

13 Q. Witness, you've given us several names. What I'd like to do now

14 is go name by name, and if you could then -- and some of them we've

15 already discussed, but could you tell -- I will ask -- give you the name,

16 and could you tell me how you -- to your knowledge, how that person got

17 killed. And maybe first start with Sabaha Behlo.

18 A. How she lost her life?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I was unconscious, so I didn't know that actually what happened

21 that very moment. I just know that she was killed by a shell.

22 Q. And was she killed in the basement or outside the basement?

23 A. She was killed just in front of the basement. However, Sabaha and

24 Mirsada were killed in the basement, because when the shell fell, she was

25 shot. And Fatka Gudic and Muamer and Zulum and the others were killed as

Page 9075

1 they started running towards Smailo's house. This was a new house built

2 in 1992, and that is where Sabaha was killed. And Salih, Mirsad, Muamer,

3 as they were running away, as the shells were falling on the house.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, it's a bit confusing for

5 us. Could you please make a clear distinction between those who were

6 killed while they were in the basement. So give us the names of those who

7 were killed at the same time that you were wounded and rendered

8 unconscious, and those who were killed outside the basement.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the basement people were only

10 seriously wounded. But when Sabaha and her daughter starting running,

11 they were killed at the door because the shells were falling. However,

12 when the shell fell at the -- in the basement itself, people were badly

13 wounded, and they panicked and they started running away, and Sabaha and

14 her daughter were killed on the way out, because another shell fell there.

15 And the others were killed as shells continued falling on Smailo's house.

16 That's how it was.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Uh-huh. Shells -- you say shells were falling.

19 Did you have a conception of where the shell came from? Did they come

20 from the sky, fall down, or did they come more or less horizontally?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think they were falling from

22 Mackovac, Kupres. That's the only way that the shells could reach our

23 houses. It was only from that direction.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But when a shell strikes

25 and when it caused loss of consciousness, did it pass through the roof and

Page 9076

1 hit the basement, or did it come from the side? Could you explain?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It -- I think I draw a little -- I

3 drew a little circle on the house. It struck the house through the wall,

4 left the big hole and entered the basement. It was aimed at the basement.

5 It didn't come through the roof. Anyone could see that.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Because this is

7 important for us.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness BY, a point of

9 clarification. Within the general framework of what you're telling us,

10 you said that when you were hit the men who were outside, in order to

11 protect the village, heard the cries and came to join you, which means

12 that they weren't very far away.

13 I would like to appeal to your feeling of responsibility, because

14 you know the Chamber is seeking to establish the truth. Could you say

15 that actually there was an exchange of fire between the men who were not

16 far from the basement and the forces that you saw from your window near

17 the village? Could one say that there was an exchange of fire at a

18 certain point in time before the basement was hit?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And let me add to this question,

20 which is of special importance for us, asking you to tell us about the men

21 who were protecting you. How far were they from your house?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't very far, because they

23 couldn't go far because we were encircled on all sides.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How far? 10 metres, 50 metres,

25 a hundred metres?

Page 9077

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe 200 metres, not more than

2 that. Maybe even a hundred metres. I'm afraid I can't tell you with

3 accuracy. But it wasn't far. You could go out and see them, if you had

4 been free to move around.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're telling us about a

6 hundred metres.

7 Now, my learned friend has asked you whether the men who were

8 protecting the village had opened fire at those who were shelling.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How can he do anything with a rifle?

10 They didn't have any heavy weapons. We all know what a rifle can do.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is not the question, madam.

12 The question is to see whether the men had opened fire, even with a rifle.


14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you. I wasn't there

15 with them. You can hear the bullets, but you don't know where the shots

16 are coming from. It's only when the shells fell that we knew. So I

17 really can't tell you whether they fired or not.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're just telling us you could

19 hear the sound of the bullets, but you didn't know where they were coming

20 from. But before the shell pierced the wall, did you hear the bullet

21 shots?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This was afterwards when we

23 left the basement. You could hear the whistle of the bullets because we

24 were told not to walk around the village to avoid being wounded again.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Afterwards, but not before the

Page 9078

1 shell hit your house. Not before. Before that you didn't hear bullet

2 shots.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, afterwards.

4 MR. BOS:

5 Q. Witness, a moment ago you said you thought the shells about

6 falling from Kupres and Mackovac.

7 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 91 --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not Kupres. I didn't say Kupres. I

9 said Mracaj -- Mackovac. It's quite a different location.

10 MR. BOS: [Microphone not activated]. Could the witness be shown

11 Exhibit 9146, photograph number 6, please.

12 Q. Witness, can you indicate on this photograph where you think that

13 the shells were coming from, and maybe mark that with an X.

14 A. [Marks].

15 MR. BOS: Your Honours, while she's looking at, I think we need to

16 make a redaction on page 39, line 4. I think the word "your" may have to

17 be redacted here.

18 Q. Okay. Witness, I see you've marked an X on where you thought that

19 the shells were coming from. Now, about 10 minutes ago you also told the

20 Court that on the morning of this day you went out and you saw two tanks.

21 Can you indicate on this particular photograph --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- where you -- where you saw these two tanks.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Maybe where you've marked this X, maybe you can put the word --

Page 9079

1 put the word "tank." Can you write the word "tank" near that mark.

2 A. I should write it down?

3 Q. Yes, please write down "tank."

4 A. [Marks].

5 MR. BOS: Can we get an IC number for this exhibit.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: While it is still on, may I ask. It appears that

7 where the crosses for the tanks are there is a forest. Is that correct?

8 Were they in the woods on the other side of the valley?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a road there and they were

10 on the road. There was no forest in our direction.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

12 MR. BOS:

13 Q. Witness, just to follow up on this question, where did that road

14 lead to?

15 A. Towards Prozor, Pidris.

16 Q. Now, again could you maybe put your initials and the date of

17 today, 27 October, on the corner of this -- of this photograph.

18 MR. BOS: And if I could get an IC number for this exhibit.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, an exhibit

21 number, please.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit IC 68,

23 Your Honour.

24 MR. BOS:

25 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness --

Page 9080

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos, you referred to

2 photographs. When going through the photographs, it seems that 275 --

3 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- could testify about this --

5 this famous road.

6 MR. BOS: Yes. If Your Honours wish so, we can -- if we can get

7 Exhibit 9146 --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because for the Judges, we have

9 to know whether the tank was hidden in the forest, and then the witness

10 can't see the tank, or is the tank on the road and can it be seen from the

11 window. There is a photograph that might be able to help us resolve this

12 difficulty.

13 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I agree, and -- so I'll ask the witness to

14 be shown Exhibit 9146, photograph number, and I will have to count now.

15 Photograph number 12. No, page number 11. My apologies. Page number 11.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With regard to Mr. Praljak's

17 Defence, I'd like to point out that on the map provided to us by

18 Mr. Praljak, we can see two roads. Well, roads or perhaps paths.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this was the road from the top

20 of Uzricje, and then it goes on towards Braci [phoen] and Pidris.

21 MR. BOS: Maybe it should be photograph 13. I'm trying to locate

22 the photograph, Your Honours, because it's a bit difficult with the

23 e-court numbers.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the document you showed a

25 minute ago I have the number 275, a handwritten number.

Page 9081

1 MR. BOS: Your Honour, I have a hard copy here of the photograph.

2 Maybe it would --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So place it on

4 the ELMO. It will be quicker. Place it on the ELMO.

5 MR. BOS: You will have to put it on the overhead projector so

6 that everyone can see.

7 Q. Witness, can you take a look at this photograph. And you said

8 you've been referring to this route to Pidris where you saw the tanks.

9 Can you actually see that road on this particular photograph? And you

10 will have to -- you can also look at the photograph on the ELMO. You

11 don't necessarily have to look at the screen. It's probably better if you

12 look at the photograph.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, have a look at the

14 photograph to your right, which is clearer than the one on the screen.

15 It's difficult to make out the path on the screen. It's a lot more

16 clearer on the photograph.

17 MR. BOS:

18 Q. Witness, if I --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your finger on the road so

20 that everyone can see. Put your finger on the road.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Uzricje, and it links up

22 with the top here. This is the road for Mracaj, Pidris, et cetera.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you use your finger to

24 point to the location at which you saw the tank.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was here. There was a

Page 9082

1 field.

2 MR. BOS: Would that be sufficient, Your Honour?

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Defence had this

4 photograph in front of them. Mr. Karnavas, you had the photograph.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. We still need to make a record in the sense

6 that she should draw something. We saw the demonstration. Now we need to

7 have something memorialised for the record.

8 MR. BOS:

9 Q. Maybe, Witness, then if you could take a pen and then indicate

10 again with an X where you actually saw the tanks on the road.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. BOS: And then maybe if we can get an IC number for this

14 particular document.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, a number, please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC 69, Your Honours.

17 MR. BOS:

18 Q. Could you then maybe put your initials and the date in the corner

19 of --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your initials on the

21 document, madam.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].

23 MR. BOS:

24 Q. All right. We'll leave the photograph for now, Witness.

25 Witness, you said that -- that the men came out with a white flag.

Page 9083

1 Did the men surrender?

2 A. It wasn't a flag. It was a big white piece of cloth. They took

3 it out on the balcony, attached it to a pole so that they would stop

4 shooting, so that they would understand that they wanted to surrender.

5 Q. Around what happened after -- after this white -- after this white

6 piece of cloth was shown and people surrendered? What happened next?

7 A. The troops withdrew. The civilians were provided with assistance.

8 I don't know how long this lasted. Then they said we had to go to Paloc.

9 Whoever was able to go had to go there. Others would be carried there

10 since there were people who had been seriously wounded. They didn't have

11 any stretchers, so they wrapped them up in blankets, and then four

12 individuals would carry these wounded persons wrapped up in blankets

13 there.

14 There was a doctor waiting there, there to --

15 MR. BOS: [Previous translation continues] ... "they said that we

16 had to go to Paloc." Who are you referring to when you say "they"?

17 A. Well, they told our troops -- I don't really know the details, but

18 they said that we had to go to Paloc. Whoever could walk there had to

19 walk there. Others were carried in blankets. Our troops ordered us to do

20 this because we didn't see any HVO soldiers in the village then. Whoever

21 could go there went there.

22 There were doctors waiting there. The doctor was a Croatian

23 doctor, and there were two medical orderlies. There were seriously

24 wounded people who would have succumbed to their wounds if they hadn't

25 been provided with treatment.

Page 9084

1 There were two ambulances that went to Bugojno, so there was a

2 doctor and two ambulances there. They took the wounded there, to Bugojno,

3 if they couldn't be aided in Paloc. They even had to be operated on.

4 Q. Witness, let me just stop you there. So you said that people were

5 getting medical treatment. Are you now talking about medical treatment in

6 Paloc or in Dusa?

7 A. It was in Paloc. Wounds were only dressed in Dusa, but when we

8 arrived in the house in Paloc, they were treated there.

9 Q. Now, you yourself, Witness, you were also wounded. Where was your

10 wound treated?

11 A. Yes, I was also wounded. They examined me there. They said they

12 couldn't help me, that I had to go to Bugojno. I was also treated in

13 Bugojno.

14 Q. How many people were -- were treated in Bugojno? Were you the

15 only one who was taken to Bugojno, or were others taken to Bugojno as

16 well?

17 A. Well, I couldn't really provide you with any exact numbers. At

18 that time, it wasn't possible to count. I know that the ambulance left on

19 one occasion with two seriously wounded individuals. They then returned

20 to fetch us and treated those who couldn't be helped by the doctors that

21 day, treated those who had to go to Bugojno, and in Bugojno they also

22 treated us and we then returned to Paloc.

23 Q. Did you return to Paloc on the same day or was that the next day,

24 or when did you return to Paloc?

25 A. I returned in the ambulance on the very same day. I returned to

Page 9085

1 Paloc.

2 Q. So what happened to you after you had returned to Paloc?

3 A. We stayed in Paloc for two or three days. The men were taken away

4 immediately. We were in the house. No one came to see us. There were no

5 guards protecting us. The women who were fit left, and they'd prepare

6 food, and they also came to bury those who had died.

7 Q. When you say, "They also came to bury those who had died," who are

8 you referring to?

9 A. They let them bury them and then return them to detention, to the

10 detention units that they had been held in before.

11 Q. But -- so you did answer my question, Witness. You said, "They

12 let them bury them." Now, who are "they," and who are "them"?

13 A. The HVO released our soldiers so that they could come and bury the

14 civilians who had died. And after they had been buried, they were

15 returned to the detention units they'd been held in. They spent some time

16 in Paloc, then they were transferred to Trnovaca, and then some went to

17 Prozor, and others remained in Trnovaca, and we never saw them again.

18 After burials, we didn't see any of our soldiers again.

19 Q. How long did you stay in Paloc?

20 A. Well, we were there for between two and three days, and then we

21 returned there. They said, "Go home." We were put up in three houses.

22 We moved from Paloc.

23 When we arrived there there were some troops there. We were put

24 up in three houses and then an order of some kind was issued. We were all

25 told to gather in one place. We were supposed to go to Hajrudin Sljivo's

Page 9086

1 house. We were to assemble there.

2 Q. Let me just stop you there. So you said you returned to Dusa and

3 you were put in three houses. Were these houses in the upper part of Dusa

4 or in the lower part of Dusa?

5 A. In the lower part of Dusa.

6 Q. And you say that there were troops there. Can you describe what

7 kind of troops were there?

8 A. They were troops with Croatian insignia.

9 Q. Can you describe how these soldiers looked like? What were they

10 wearing, if they had patches?

11 A. Well, they were wearing camouflage uniforms. They had HVO

12 insignia on their sleeves. They were wearing jackets.

13 Q. Now -- so you said you were first put in three houses. What can

14 you say about the condition of the houses in lower Dusa where you were

15 taken?

16 A. Well, it all took place within 10 or 15 minutes. We didn't stay

17 at the houses. Then there was an order according to which we should all

18 be placed in Hajrudin's house. So we were in those houses for 10 or 15

19 minutes. Then we all gathered in Hajrudin's house, in the house of

20 Hajrudin Sljivo.

21 Q. And did anything particular happen when you moved from those three

22 houses into Hajrudin Sljivo's house?

23 A. Well, we went there. I don't know how many troops there were,

24 exactly how many HVO members there were exactly. We were lined up. They

25 had their rifles at the ready. I don't know what sort of orders they were

Page 9087

1 waiting for. One soldier asked a question. We then realised that he

2 wasn't a local inhabitant. He pointed to the villages of Odvoda [phoen]

3 and Batusa. In Odvoda there were just Muslims, and in Batusa there were

4 Muslims and Croats.

5 Q. You said we realised that this soldier was not a local

6 inhabitant. Why are you saying that?

7 A. Well, because he didn't know about these villages that he had

8 asked about. So it was probably the first time he had come there. All

9 the locals know about the population structure of the various villages.

10 They know which villages are inhabited by Muslims and which villages are

11 inhabited by Croats.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, how many soldiers were

13 there? Could you provide us with an approximate number?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know exactly. They --

15 well, we were all in a state of shock, so I couldn't really say how many

16 of them there were. Some of them drove through in jeeps. They passed

17 through Old Dusa, Stara Dusa.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On page 23 [as interpreted] you

19 said they drive through in jeeps.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They had these registration

21 plates on the jeeps. They'd pass through the village. We were in the

22 lower part of Dusa. And they had the letters MO on the jeeps.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said there was a -- there

24 were the letters M on the jeep. Just the M or was there a number?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I couldn't really see

Page 9088

1 everything clearly, but when they passed through you'd notice the vehicle,

2 but I didn't really notice the letters. I noticed those two letters.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But was there one jeep or

4 several jeeps?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they drove through. I

6 couldn't count them. They went in various directions. I couldn't provide

7 with you an exact number. Some were coming back.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you see one vehicle or

9 several?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they'd drive through and

11 return. On one occasion two drove through and then they returned. So it

12 was difficult.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos, please carry on. Try

14 to accelerate so that the cross-examination can commence.

15 MR. BOS:

16 Q. Just one question on the questions that were asked by the Judge.

17 You said that the letters were -- were MO. Does that refer to a

18 certain region and, if so, what region?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Most probably -- [no

20 interpretation].

21 MR. BOS: Your Honours, the witness --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostar. I came to the -- to this

23 conclusion judging by the letters I saw, MO.

24 MR. BOS: Just for the record, Your Honours, on line 57 --

25 page 57, line 3, the witness actually said MO and not just -- just M.

Page 9089

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

2 MR. BOS:

3 Q. Witness, when you came back to Dusa, what can you say about the

4 condition of the houses in Dusa? You said you were taken first --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excuse me, because I see that my

6 words were not interpreted. I wanted to say that the interpreters in the

7 French booth heard the letter M, not MO. The witness confirmed that it

8 was MO. So we take note of that.

9 So, madam, did you see the letter M or MO?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] MO. I'm not blind not to see.

11 There was a road there and they passed along that road.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 MR. BOS:

14 Q. Witness, so just -- I'll ask my question again.

15 When -- when you came back to Dusa, what was the condition of --

16 of the houses in Dusa? And you said you arrived in the lower part of

17 Dusa, so maybe we can start by talking about the lower part of Dusa.

18 A. When we were in Paloc, the Behlos' houses were burnt that day when

19 we were surrendering. So Behlos' houses were burnt. And then afterwards

20 they started torching other houses in Donja Dusa.

21 Q. And when you've been referring to Donja Dusa. Is that Upper Dusa

22 or Lower Dusa?

23 A. It's lower. It's a village lower down. It's a new settlement,

24 and this new one was called as New Dusa, or Lower Dusa, and the older one

25 was Old Dusa.

Page 9090

1 Q. Did you see that these houses in Lower Dusa were being torched?

2 Did you see that yourself?

3 A. A neighbour who was leaving her house, we were about 20 metres

4 away, soldiers were there, she was trying to prevent them from torching

5 her house. They might have killed her if it hadn't been for her

6 father-in-law who told her there was nothing she could do to prevent it.

7 And then they set fire to her house.

8 Q. Witness, again I would like you to be more specific. You're

9 talking about soldiers and you're talking about "they." What kind of

10 soldiers were these?

11 A. HVO. HVO soldiers were there. And she was coming out of the

12 house, and they came in front of the door. I couldn't hear what they were

13 saying, but she was trying to prevent them from setting fire to her house.

14 And then her father-in-law said, "You can't do anything." And then they

15 pushed her away with their rifle, and they entered and set fire to the

16 house.

17 Q. How many soldiers did you see?

18 A. Three soldiers. Whether there were others behind the house --

19 because the houses were very close, one to another. We couldn't move

20 around much outside. We don't know where the bullets were coming from,

21 whether it was for intimidation. When you go out to hang the laundry, you

22 could hear a bullet whiz over your head. So that we didn't move around

23 much, especially not in the fields. We stayed inside as much as we could

24 out of fear. We were afraid. But the bullets were coming from some

25 place, though we couldn't see exactly where from, nor the soldiers.

Page 9091

1 Q. Witness, how long did you -- did you stay in Hajrudin Sljivo's

2 house?

3 A. I can't tell you exactly. I can tell you roughly. UNPROFOR came

4 to visit us --

5 Q. Just give me roughly the number of days that you stayed.

6 A. Some 10 days or so probably.

7 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you this: Were you able to see the houses

8 from the lower part of -- of Dusa? Were you able to see Upper Dusa from

9 the house that you were in?

10 A. Yes. We could see everything as they were burning. When they

11 came, they set fire to our whole village. The whole village of Dusa. The

12 stables, even the cows.

13 You really don't know to say. One can only cry and watch the

14 fire. At the end, I just laughed. And people said, "Why are you

15 laughing?" And I said, "I can no longer cry."

16 You could see flames. Even the older houses were burning, and

17 stables full of hay. All the houses in Dusa were torched that day.

18 Q. Okay. A couple of questions on what you just said. You first

19 said, "When they came, they set fire to our whole village." Again, who

20 are "they"?

21 A. I apologise. The Croatian army. A car went by without any

22 markings. There was nothing on the vehicle. It was the same colour as

23 the clothing they wore, and that is when everything was set fire to. It

24 was completely destroyed and nothing was left there.

25 Q. And --

Page 9092

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A point of clarification. You

2 said the Croatian army. You mean the HVO or the army from Zagreb?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. The HVO. The HVO.

4 MR. BOS:

5 Q. You're describing this. Were you actually able to witness this

6 yourself? Where were you when this happened?

7 A. I was in -- in front of Hajrudin's house when the vehicle passed

8 by and when the houses were torched. No one went up there. Nobody dared

9 go there.

10 Afterwards, we went there because Sljivo Enver's house was not set

11 on fire. The second floor hadn't burned down. The first had. The second

12 hadn't. Because there was nothing there on the second floor. There were

13 just the walls. There were bullet holes in the door, in the frame of the

14 door.

15 Q. You say afterwards we went to -- to Enver Sljivo house. When was

16 this, and with whom did you go there?

17 A. We went there -- UNPROFOR came, and we felt safer when they came.

18 We were happy to see that everyone hadn't forgotten us. And we went

19 there. We entered the house. One couldn't believe what one saw. The

20 first floor was burned. We climbed to the second floor. It wasn't burnt,

21 but the door had bullet holes -- or, rather, each door-frame had these

22 bullet holes.

23 Q. So what happened to you after -- after you left the house of

24 Hajrudin Sljivo? Where did you go?

25 A. I went to Gornji Vakuf. UNPROFOR came to take us. We were driven

Page 9093

1 to Vakuf, put up there. Then there was an exchange of soldiers, and they

2 returned that day. Our soldiers returned. Some stayed behind. They

3 thought they could protect their property and prevent it from being burnt

4 if they stayed, so some of them stayed whose houses had not been burnt.

5 MR. BOS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence for the

7 cross-examination.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I shall be the first,

9 Your Honour. I assume I have 15 minutes. Am I right?

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Try and be brief. If everyone

11 takes 15 minutes, we won't manage, so we should try and complete the

12 hearing by a quarter to 2.00.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I shall do my best, but I'll take

14 little longer than 15 minutes because I have permission from Mr. Pusic's

15 counsel to use a little of their time.

16 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning. I have a few questions for you,

18 but I would first like to ask you to have a look at the photograph that

19 has already been shown you, 09146, photograph number 5.

20 We can see here some sand. That would roughly be the spot where

21 your house used to be?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Am I right if I say that the sand by shape looks like the

24 foundations of your house? And if I understood your drawing properly,

25 that the main entrance would be roughly across the way from this car.

Page 9094

1 A. No. No, the entrance was on the other side towards me.

2 Q. What do you mean, in relation to the car?

3 A. The entrance to the garage was across the way from the car, but

4 the main entrance was on the other side.

5 Q. You mean towards the electricity pole?

6 A. No, no. The other side. On this side.

7 Q. So the side closest to us. That is where the main entrance was;

8 is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you drew the -- where the shell hit the basement, was it the

11 lateral part of the house towards this tree?

12 A. Yes, towards the tree.

13 Q. So not on this front wall but the side wall towards the house. So

14 could we please draw on the top of these foundations the way your house

15 stood? Could you do that?

16 A. I'll try.

17 Q. Please do that. On top of this sand, as you see it, could you

18 draw your house as it used to be. I think you can use the rectangle that

19 you see on the ground.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. Excellent. So that is where your house stood.

22 MR. BOS: Your Honours --

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Okay. Okay.

24 MR. BOS: I think we'll need to go into private session with the

25 exercise we're doing now.

Page 9095

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll go into private session.

2 MR. BOS: And I would request that the earlier part be redacted.

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, I think you're quite right.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9096











11 Pages 9096-9113 redacted. Private session.















Page 9114

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In a few minutes we shall have

6 to have a break.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

8 Mr. President.

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] As far as I am concerned, we can

10 have the break now if you wish, Your Honour. It's up to you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How many more minutes do you

12 need? I think it would be better for you to finish first. How many more

13 minutes do you need?

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] It's hard for me to say in view of

15 the reactions of the witness. Maybe some 10 minutes or so, and my client.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but then we have

17 Mr. Karnavas and Ms. Alaburic. So that's what we're worried about.

18 Unless Mr. Karnavas wishes to give him -- give you his time.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, a pause is always good for one to

20 reflect and perhaps condense whatever is left.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will have the

22 break now.

23 It's 25 to 1.00. We will resume at 10 to 1.00, and we will

24 continue until a quarter to 2.00. So please try and come to understanding

25 so that we can adjourn on time.

Page 9115

1 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I looked through my

5 questions, and I personally have no further questions, but my client feels

6 that three technical questions need to be put and that will only take five

7 minutes. But we have reached agreement regarding the use of time, and I'm

8 sure we will be able to adjourn on time.

9 Thank you.

10 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam. Let me ask you some very

12 simple technical questions.

13 You have drawn where the shell hit your house. You said that it

14 entered the corridor.

15 A. Yes, the corridor and the basement.

16 Q. What kind of a hole did it leave; do you remember?

17 A. Enormous hole, a big hole.

18 Q. Was it a round hole? How big was it?

19 A. When I say it's a big hole, you know what is a small hole and a

20 big hole.

21 Q. It was a round hole and the shell hit directly at the house.

22 It --

23 A. The way I told you. It was an enormous hole. As the corridor

24 leads to the basement, it landed into the basement.

25 Q. Could we have 09149. Could we see -- have the sketch on the ELMO,

Page 9116

1 please.

2 In the meantime, can you please show us on the sketch shown by the

3 Prosecutor the exact position where the shell fell in accordance with the

4 sketch you drew for Mrs. Nozica. I think it is point 264, but will you

5 please draw it yourself now.

6 I think it would be where arrow number 264 is, according to

7 what -- the drawing that you made before.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. Thank you. Now, you can see the road leading towards Uzricje, and

10 to the left or above would you see the hill known as Mackovac?

11 A. Yes, Mackovac and Kuk and so on, yes.

12 Q. And as far as I can remember, there are two roads on Mackovac, an

13 upper road and a lower road. Could you please draw a circle where

14 Mackovac is. In relation to Uzricje, it would be above Uzricje. It says

15 Uzricje. You see the word there? According to the map I have, Mackovac

16 is somewhere about -- it's parallel with Dusa and Uzricje.

17 Never mind. It's not important. Where this drawing is, that is

18 where Mackovac is.

19 When you were pointing things out to us, could you now indicate

20 where the tank -- tank was?

21 A. I am -- I am afraid I can't mark that for you. I know that the

22 shots were coming from that side, but I really can't do that, not even

23 approximately.

24 Q. Let us go slowly. You were on the balcony, and you looked towards

25 the hill facing the front of your house. In the woods, on a road you saw

Page 9117

1 a tank. So try and imagine yourself standing on that same balcony facing

2 the hill, and up there on a road or in the woods you saw a couple of

3 tanks. Could you roughly indicate where that was?

4 A. I'm afraid I can't find my way on this drawing. I think I

5 indicated it clearly on the other drawing, but not on this one.

6 Q. Very well. We'll have this reconstructed. But since you said

7 that it made a hole and that this arrow indicates where the shell made

8 this hole and penetrated into the basement, if you have a look through

9 that hole can you see Mackovac, or do you see something that is opposite

10 Gornji Vakuf? When you turn in that direction, Uzricje would be to your

11 left.

12 A. Well, I really can't answer that question. How can I say this?

13 Whoever fired those shells knew how they were doing this, but the site

14 operator must have been very good.

15 Q. But do you know where the graveyard is? Have a look at the

16 rectangular -- at the rectangle to the right of your house. Do you know

17 where the graveyard is located?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where was the tank in relation to the graveyard? Now you know

20 where the graveyard is. So now you could say perhaps whether it was

21 above, to the left, to the right, in relation to the graveyard.

22 A. Well, I don't know whether it was fired from that location or not,

23 but the house was hit.

24 Q. Just tell us where the tank was in relation to the graveyard.

25 Later we'll talk about the house that was hit, et cetera. But in relation

Page 9118

1 to the graveyard, where was the tank located?

2 A. I have marked the location now.

3 Q. So that's where it was. Thank you. Could you just write down the

4 word "tank."

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, in order to assist

6 you, we have a photograph where we can see the hill, the graveyard,

7 et cetera. It might be more useful to show this photograph. The number

8 is 273. Since we have this photograph, place it on the ELMO.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Next to the red dot on the house could you write down G.

12 A. [Marks].

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It would be perhaps be easier --

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can you also sign the

15 document and put down -- and note the date. Put your initials on the

16 previous document and today's date. It's the 27th of October.

17 MR. BOS: If she signs it, maybe she can sign it with her

18 pseudonym instead of her name since we're in open session.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. You should use your

20 pseudonym, madam, BY. Not on the photograph, though, on the other

21 document.

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] BY. I can't see BY.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] There it is. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number for

Page 9119

1 Mr. Praljak's document under seal, Mr. Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

3 continues] ... Your Honours, under seal.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, you have a photograph on

5 the ELMO in which it seems that we can see the graveyard. We can see the

6 graves, and in the foreground we can see what seems to be the stable, and

7 in the background we can see the hill. Is this actually what one can see

8 from your house?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, there's a

11 photograph with the graveyard. Perhaps you could put your questions to

12 her and use the photograph if you feel it's necessary. If not, don't.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. In this photograph -- well, there's a path up in the woods, but in

15 this photograph could you mark approximately the location of the tank when

16 you saw it on that day.

17 A. It was in the morning.

18 Q. In the morning. Very well.

19 A. Should I mark this?

20 Q. Yes. Mark the location where the tank was. Adjust the photograph

21 for yourself.

22 A. There was a field here and the path passed through here.

23 Q. Could you please speak up. That's where you saw the tank. Madam,

24 this position is quite different from the one that you indicated on the

25 previous photograph, and it's quite different from the position indicated

Page 9120

1 by the previous witness.

2 A. I'm telling you about what I saw. I'm not interested in any other

3 witnesses. What I saw that morning is what I'll tell you about, but as to

4 whether it fired from that location or from some other location, I don't

5 know, but that morning there were two tanks on the road there. There was

6 another road too.

7 Q. Very well. There were two tanks there, and you did -- and you saw

8 them. I --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, would you want to

10 tender this document into evidence?

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, could you mark BY on this

13 document. Write down the initials BY.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a

16 number for the photograph under seal, Your Honours.

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] IC 72, Your Honours, under seal.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You said that at one point in time you saw one or two jeeps and

20 the registration plate said MO.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You've seen American films, and you see these American jeeps.

23 Were they such jeeps or were they four-wheel vehicles?

24 A. Well, that's the first time I saw those jeeps. What armija didn't

25 have the HVO had. I won't talk about films now. That's the first time I

Page 9121

1 saw them. I was dumbfounded when I saw such jeeps during the war, when I

2 noticed that they had such equipment, such vehicles.

3 Q. Were these open jeeps or were they closed? Did they have roofs

4 above them?

5 A. Well, they were closed.

6 Q. Did they have a sort of cabin?

7 A. Well, I couldn't say. They passed by quickly. You didn't have

8 time to observe them. You didn't have time to see whether there was a

9 tarpaulin covering them or not. You didn't feel free to observe. We were

10 lined up. There were rifles pointed at us, and these vehicles just drove

11 by. We were by the road, lined up there, and there were the rifles there.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, the -- Mr. Praljak is

13 asking you whether the jeeps resemble jeeps one sees in American films.

14 For example, American jeeps as used in the Second World War. Were the

15 jeeps you saw of such kind, or were the jeeps more like Japanese

16 all-terrain vehicles, Toyota all-terrain vehicles?

17 So were they Japanese all-terrain vehicles or were they

18 American-style vehicles? If you don't know, just say you don't know.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Those who sent them

20 there know what kind of jeeps they were, but you're asking me about this

21 and I don't know. All I know is that they drove through.

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Thank you. You also said HVO soldiers torched houses in part of

24 Dusa, and then you said, "I saw three soldiers."

25 A. Yes, that was down there. Naturally I saw them.

Page 9122

1 Q. You saw three soldiers. When? At what time of day did they pass

2 through? Was it in the evening, in the morning?

3 A. It was in the afternoon when the entire upper part of Dusa had

4 been set on fire. It was in the afternoon, perhaps about 1.00 or

5 2.00 p.m., when Gornja Dusa burnt down.

6 Q. Can you tell me the date?

7 A. Well, I keep saying that I can't remember the dates. I wish I

8 could remember the dates, but none of the civilians even knew what time it

9 was nor whether it was Monday or Friday or what the date was.

10 Q. Very well. You said the car had no markings. You said that there

11 were three soldiers in that car.

12 A. No. I said that there were three soldiers down there by the

13 house, and they wanted to set fire to it. It was Sljivo Sevka's house, so

14 there were no cars. But when Gornja Dusa was on fire then the car without

15 any markings passed by. They went to Gornja Dusa and then everything was

16 set fire to.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, we have to stop

18 there because we've run out of time.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Let me just clarify this

20 issue and then I'll be finished.

21 Q. At the time they passed by, those HVO soldiers that you had

22 previously seen there were no longer there or were they still there?

23 A. Well, the soldiers had withdrawn. The ones who had these modern

24 jeeps, well, they had stayed there for two or three days. They no longer

25 appeared and then ordinary jeeps started arriving. But for two or three

Page 9123

1 days they were there with these real jeeps.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have

3 no more questions, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next Defence team.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.

6 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Witness. I have a few simple and brief

8 questions that I would like to put to you, and I hope that we will manage

9 to cover all the ground that I think is important.

10 You said today a lot about how the shell fell on your house.

11 My colleague has just drawn my attention to the fact that I have

12 made a mistake since we're in open session. Could this please be taken

13 into account.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move back into private

15 session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9124











11 Pages 9124-9139 redacted. Private session.















Page 9140

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day

9 of October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.