Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10890

1 Thursday, 30 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, would you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. President, IT-04-74-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Prlic and others.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. I'd

10 like to say good afternoon to all those present, the Prosecution, the

11 Defence, the accused and everybody else. We are going to have a witness

12 shown in shortly, but before that, the Prosecution informed us, through

13 the legal assistant of the Chamber, about a large number of pages.

14 Mr. Mundis, would you like to expound.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good

16 afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom. I did indeed have

17 contact with the Chamber's legal officer concerning our upcoming refiling

18 of the 92 bis motion with respect to the witnesses from Prozor. As Your

19 Honours will recall, that application dealt with comparing 11 proposed

20 written statement 92 bis witnesses with 16 viva voce witnesses who

21 testified concerning events in Prozor municipality. In light of the

22 requirements of the Trial Chamber to match the proposed written testimony,

23 written evidence, with the viva voce evidence, we anticipate that our

24 filing, in order to both meet the Trial Chamber's requirements and to deal

25 with all of those witnesses in one motion, will be in the range of 25 to

Page 10891

1 30 pages and we would respectfully request a variation in the word and

2 page limit to make that filing concerning all of those witnesses in one

3 document rather than making multiple filings. I also, just for the

4 benefit of the Trial Chamber and the Defence, in terms of planning, I

5 would hope -- I would hope to be in a position to file that on Monday but

6 certainly by Tuesday or Wednesday at the absolute very latest we will be

7 filing that motion concerning those witnesses. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, the Chamber

9 accords your request and you can have a larger number of pages.

10 Now, with respect to the protection of witnesses for next week, I

11 asked the Defence to state their positions but I have received no written

12 document up to the present day. Mr. Karnavas, what is your position?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. I leave it up to the

14 Court's discretion and I will do so for all the remaining witnesses unless

15 we are dealing with some political figure where I will do -- I will state

16 my position at that point in time.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I assume that the

18 other Defence counsel have the same position. Mr. Kovacic?

19 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I might be allowed to ask for two IC

20 numbers for a document, or rather documents that I wish to tender with

21 Witness CG. I have my list and secondly, my objection to the

22 Prosecution's proposal for the last three witnesses.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The IC documents, we'll deal

24 with that on Monday because we have limited time today since we have two

25 witnesses to get through but what objection do you have with respect to

Page 10892

1 the three witnesses next week?

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No objection. I join Mr. Karnavas

3 in his stand so I have nothing to add there.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. If none

5 of the other Defence counsel have any remarks to make, we are -- and have

6 no objections. We are to grant protective measures. In a few minutes I'm

7 going to ask Madam Usher to lower the blinds and have a protected witness

8 shown into the courtroom. And once she -- they have taken the solemn

9 declaration, we will be able to raise the blinds again.

10 Mr. Registrar, may we move into private session, please?

11 [Private session]

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Page 10893











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Page 10898

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

25 Mr. President.

Page 10899


2 Q. Witness, now people outside the courtroom can hear what you say so

3 please don't mention any names unless you are specifically asked to do so.

4 A. Very well.

5 Q. Very briefly, very briefly, is Kevcici within the village of

6 Bivolje Brdo, municipality of Capljina?

7 A. Yes. It does belong to Bivolje Brdo.

8 Q. And Bivolje Brdo lies on the Dubrave plateau?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. How far is Bivolje Brdo situated from Domanovici?

11 A. Approximately three kilometres.

12 Q. And from Lokva?

13 A. About two and a half from Lokva.

14 Q. Before the war, is it correct that the hamlet where you stayed,

15 Kevcici, was -- the majority of inhabitants were Muslim?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But in the area there were also people from other ethnic

18 groupings, also Croats, living in hamlets; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's right. There were some there but to a lesser

20 extent.

21 Q. Witness, I'd like to turn now to July 1993. At the beginning of

22 July 1993, is it correct that it was only your husband, you and your

23 father-in-law and your second son and his family who were living with you?

24 Or in the hamlet with you?

25 A. We lived there in the house and there were no houses round about.

Page 10900

1 Now, these others lived in the surrounding areas. They were a little

2 further away, because it wasn't a built-up area.

3 Q. Okay. Your son and his family, did they live in your house?

4 A. We had two houses. My husband and I, my father-and-law, lived in

5 one. And in the other my younger son with his wife and three month old

6 baby.

7 Q. And your son's or the house where your son and his family stayed,

8 was that on the other side of the road or the opposite side of the road

9 from where your house was?

10 A. That's right, yes.

11 Q. Now, witness, on the 1st of July, tell us what happened the

12 morning your husband left for work?

13 A. Well, he left at 6.00 in the morning by bus, and three kilometres

14 from our house at Domanovici, they stopped the bus, I don't know who, but

15 they told him to get out, anybody who was a Muslim had -- and when they

16 looked at their IDs, anybody who was a Muslim, was taken off in an unknown

17 direction and later on we learned that he was in the Dretelj camp. They

18 took him off in a Black Marija but I didn't know where he was at that

19 time.

20 Q. Now, Witness, the information that you have just given about your

21 husband's being taken away, did you hear that from a young boy who was on

22 the bus with your husband that day?

23 A. Yes, that's right, a boy, a boy told me. The children came back

24 but the adults were taken away.

25 Q. Up until the 13th of July, did you ever try to take anything to

Page 10901

1 your husband or visit your husband?

2 A. Yes, I did. I tried but I was unsuccessful.

3 Q. And you tried to go to Dretelj, was that correct?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. Okay. Witness, if we may turn to the 11th of July, now, on the

6 11th of July, where was your son or what had happened to your son, the

7 second son?

8 A. On the 11th of July I set off to visit my husband with a

9 neighbour. She had her husband there, too, in detention. However, this

10 was early the in the morning. The police turned up, as far as I was able

11 to see with -- from their insignia. They were strong men, armed, and they

12 surrounded the settlement. I didn't know what was happening but actually

13 they were looking for men, any of -- of the ones that came forward they

14 took with them. The others they started shooting. And I was afraid for

15 my son. I didn't know where he was exactly either, and from my daughter

16 in law I learned that he might have been arrested or killed and I was

17 afraid, and at that point in time, well, I was going to see my husband,

18 take him a change of clothing but I wasn't allowed to do so. I couldn't

19 even ask where his whereabouts were. So I came back on foot.

20 Q. Now, those strong men, armed, who surrounded the settlement,

21 do you know from which organisation or to which organisation they

22 belonged?

23 A. I didn't know which, but to all intents and purposes, they had the

24 HV insignia, HV, something like that.

25 Q. Now, witness, on the 11th, on that same day --

Page 10902

1 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, if we could move into private session

2 for a few moments.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, private session for a few

4 moments.

5 [Private session]

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

Page 10903

1 Mr. President.


3 Q. Madam, this man, was he in a uniform when he came?

4 A. I don't remember exactly but I think he was. He was some sort of

5 military formation, a logistics member. He wasn't a home guards person,

6 manning the -- he was a home guards person manning the check-point.

7 Q. Did you go to the house where he had told you to go to?

8 A. I had to. Had I not gone there, I expected somebody would come

9 and take us there and I and my daughter-in-law went there; my

10 father-in-law was not able to join us.

11 Q. What happened when you arrived at this house?

12 A. An alleged commander came to give us a lecture. There were a lot

13 of elderly people there. There were no young people; if there were, I

14 don't know, I've not seen them. I know that they had all been taken away.

15 And when he came, I was a little surprised by his clothes. He did not

16 look like a commander at all. He didn't look like anything. Still he

17 delivered a lecture to us women. He asked us to communicate to the men

18 that they should also surrender by 6.00 in the morning the following

19 morning, and should this not happen that there would be killing, shelling,

20 and that animals would also be killed, not only people.

21 Q. Did this man say what -- did he give any other instruction

22 regarding the people who you and the other people --

23 A. No, he did not give us anything. He only asked us whether there

24 were any members of the army, which meant the BiH army. One woman said

25 that her husband was, and he said those people would be free and the

Page 10904

1 others who were to be found or were not to surrender would be arrested.

2 And one woman said that her husband indeed was a member of the army, and

3 then he said, "Tell then to stay at home." And then the following morning

4 they came, they picked him up and arrested him.

5 Q. Now, you described this man as a commander. Based on what do

6 you--

7 MR. STEWART: She described him has an alleged commander.


9 Q. An alleged commander, on what --

10 A. He did not look like a commander to me and Krle had told us the

11 commander would come to see you and I suppose that that would be that

12 commander. That's why I'm saying this, and from my point of view, he

13 didn't look like a commander. He wore civilian clothes and he didn't look

14 decent at all, like a decently dressed man would look.

15 Q. Ma'am in your mind having been there, on whose behalf do you think

16 he was talking at that stage?

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we are back to the same sort of thing.

18 Sorry, I didn't see Mr. Karnavas get up. Mr. Karnavas may go first.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I was just going to suggest the way the question

20 was posed, it calls for speculation.

21 MR. STEWART: Great minds think alike, Your Honour. I didn't see

22 Mr. Karnavas, but precisely the point.

23 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I will leave that question at that.

24 Q. If we can move to the day of the 13th of July 1993 --

25 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, if we may prove into private session nor

Page 10905

1 a moment for this as well.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar?

3 [Private session]

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Page 10906

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

22 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Now, Witness, the next morning, the 14th of July, very early you

24 left the house where you had slept and you had gone and then you went back

25 to the home, to your own home where your father in law was. Tell the

Page 10907

1 Court what happened from there on?

2 A. When I returned, I found him on the ground floor, that part of the

3 house was still not completed. He asked me to give him something to eat.

4 I did that. He didn't know what would happen. Neither did I. At that

5 moment, he told me I had spent the night in the hydraulic pump building

6 where the engine for the water pump is and that is a facility behind the

7 house. He said, "I will stay here and I will spend the next night here as

8 well." Again I was imploring with him to leave but he wouldn't do that.

9 My words did not help. There was an elderly man there so I asked him

10 maybe to join that man but he wouldn't do that as well. He stayed in the

11 house.

12 I did not have any more time to wait because I had seen during

13 those moments from 6.00 in the morning until 10.00 that something bad

14 would happen. A lorry came by. A neighbour stopped that lorry, and told

15 him where to go, and allegedly the directions were to the house where I

16 had already stayed.

17 Q. And what did you do then?

18 A. Then I said to the grandfather that I didn't dare stay in the

19 house any longer and he told me, "Go on then and I'll stay behind."

20 However, I found a shelter behind the house in a shed and that's where I

21 stayed.

22 Q. Is it correct that you left the door of the shed open so that you

23 could see the back of your house?

24 A. Yes, that's true. Actually the shed did not have a door. There

25 was just a trunk that I climbed on and then I climbed on a barrel which

Page 10908

1 covered me from any views, from the outside. And just by chance, I

2 managed to survive everything that had happened later on, the torching and

3 everything that happened to my father.

4 Q. How far was this building, outbuilding, from the house, just

5 approximately?

6 A. Maybe 15 metres or so, 15 to 20 metres, but not even 20.

7 Q. While you were hiding there, what happened and what did you hear

8 next? And don't mention any names.

9 A. Very well. In the meantime, I heard some noise and I thought that

10 there would be an APC that would just drive through. However, after a

11 while, I realised that houses were being torched next to ours, next to the

12 Colakovici house. Later on I learned that indeed those houses were set on

13 fire. I just smelled the smoke and I could see the debris being carried

14 by wind towards the north, and on that same day, but later on, I heard

15 that that same lorry that had gone by went in that direction. I heard

16 shots, wailing, cries, then they came and took any men that they found

17 there among the women, they separated them, they took them to prison, and

18 as for the women and the children, they were collected and loaded on a

19 lorry and they drove them away in the direction of Domanovici.

20 Q. We will come back to a few questions on this in a moment but after

21 you heard the sound and you smelt the burning, tell the Court what

22 happened at your house?

23 A. In the meantime, after a short while, I could hear something like

24 an APC stopping in front of the house. I did not see it. I didn't dare

25 look. I was hiding. I did not expect it to stop in front of the house,

Page 10909

1 and that the house would be torched. I didn't expect anything to happen

2 to the grandfather. I thought he was ill, he was old, and how could

3 anybody have the heart to kill him? However, when they entered, first

4 they started calling our family name, and then some of them started

5 running up the stairs and the others stayed on the ground floor and I had

6 a feeling that they were searching for something, I don't know what they

7 were searching for. In the meantime, another one shouted and called my

8 father-in-law by name. After that, nothing happened.

9 However, in the meantime, I could hear him saying, "Grandpa, do

10 you want us to kill you or to arrest you?" I was praying to myself,

11 Grandpa, I hope they don't kill you, they just arrest you. I suppose that

12 he started moving towards them or something. I heard another shout and he

13 was saying, "Do you want to us kill you or do you want us to arrest you?"

14 And then he said, "A mujahedin has killed you." I'm not sure why he said

15 that. I was very confused. Again I thought nothing would come out of

16 that. He wouldn't be killed. However, they asked him where his sons were

17 and he only had one son, who had been arrested before at the beginning of

18 July. I believe that he started walking towards the gate because that's

19 where he was killed, some five or seven metres from the house. And the

20 last shouts were, "stop, stop." And from there on, I did not hear any

21 sounds. I could just feel the fire, and then I thought, since nothing

22 could be heard, that the grandfather had been killed. Later on, my

23 feeling was proven correct.

24 Q. May I stop you at that point? If you say he said, "A mujahedin

25 has killed you," who said that, your father-in-law or somebody else?

Page 10910

1 A. No, these men who torched and who actually killed him, they were

2 the one who is uttered those words. I suppose that they wanted to provoke

3 him. He was an elderly man. He didn't want to hear those words. And

4 then this man told him, "You have a son who is a mujahedin, don't you?"

5 All sorts of things were happening and this certainly wasn't true. And it

6 really pains me that this happened, because this was not true. This was

7 just a provocation.

8 Q. If I may stop you there again, these men you refer to, do you have

9 any idea who or what they were?

10 A. They represented the HVO army. They were troops. And I guarantee

11 that they were troops. I believe I know. This is what I claim. This is

12 who they were, because the previous ones who had torched closer to

13 Domanovic will told me who they were. They mentioned some names. I can't

14 tell you who they were but I know that those were HVO troops. Among them

15 was a neighbour of ours who had brought us to our house because he knew us

16 by name.

17 Q. Now, Witness --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Shall we move into private

19 session?

20 MR. KRUGER: Yes, Your Honour, please.

21 [Private session]

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Page 10911

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: [No interpretation]

19 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, at the time your father in law was shot or during this

21 incident, was your house -- what happened to your house?

22 A. Well, across the road from my house, another house was torched.

23 Q. But what about your house? Was your house damaged?

24 A. It burnt to the ground. It wasn't damaged. It was burnt to the

25 ground. It was not complete on the ground floor and one part was a

Page 10912

1 business premises but not furnished. And the upper floor burned to the

2 brick and -- bricks and walls started falling. And in the meantime, when

3 they killed the grandfather, the same group crossed the road and torched

4 the other house there.

5 Q. Okay. And did you see or hear after the second house was torched

6 what happened or what these people were doing?

7 A. They moved on towards north, towards a village called Pasicevina

8 and two houses before that were torched, close to our houses, but not that

9 close, maybe 200 metres away from our houses or 250 metres, I'm not sure.

10 I heard them shooting up there.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, you're saying that they

12 torched houses. Did you see that or did you observe that later on.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard shots from up there and I

14 saw the smoke and I even saw the flames. It was a bit later, and I could

15 actually start getting ready to leave my shelter. There was nobody there

16 around me.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you don't know how the

18 houses were set on fire.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I could not see that.


21 Q. Now, witness --

22 A. Which doesn't mean that I did not see some white powder around the

23 houses. I don't know what that was but later on I heard that that was

24 some agent that makes the houses burn faster.

25 Q. At which houses did you see this?

Page 10913

1 A. Where the grand father was killed, around the house, and I did not

2 dare go in, and I couldn't go in, because it was still smouldering and not

3 safe to go in.

4 Q. Now, Witness, is it correct that you later that same night saw the

5 body of your grandfather? You left -- you left the place where you were

6 hiding and you saw the body of the father-in-law?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Could you describe what you saw?

9 A. I saw the position he was in. I saw where he was facing. I could

10 observe his position, the position of his body. I didn't have the

11 strength or time to look at the body and to see where the gunshot wounds

12 were. I don't know whether he had been shot once or twice, because he

13 always wore a coat, he was cold even in July. I had to leave as soon as

14 possible. I had to flee, and I really don't know to this very day how I

15 managed to escape that place.

16 Q. Is it correct that you, from that point, went to Lokva?

17 A. Yes. I was waiting for the night to fall, which happened around

18 9.00 in the evening. There was a road above the house which I didn't dare

19 cross while it was still daylight and I sought shelter in any houses or

20 sheds there, and then I fled. I went through the forest and I see that

21 everything was torched around me, and in front of me I saw that the

22 houses -- that the trees were on fire, and I realised that the torching

23 was still going on. I came there and there was nobody there and everybody

24 from Lokva had already taken to the woods. And --

25 Q. Now, Witness, you say that everything was torched. Are you

Page 10914

1 referring to only trees or was something else also --

2 A. The route that I took was through the woods, through the thickets,

3 through meadows and fields and there were some fruit trees but everything

4 had been torched. In that direction there were no houses, just some

5 holiday cottages, I didn't pay too much attention to them. I could only

6 see that on one house all the window panes had been broken. It was dark

7 and I did not have time to look around me. I just wanted to make sure

8 that I wasn't burned as everything was ablaze around me.

9 Q. In Lokva, when you arrived there and found nobody there, what

10 about the buildings, houses in Lokva? Were they still intact?

11 A. They were intact. Some were even locked. I tried to enter.

12 Later on, people told me when I found them in the forest that they had

13 locked their houses hoping that they would return and that they would be

14 able to feed their cattle. However, this all fell flew.

15 Q. Now, Witness, is it correct that later you returned to your own

16 house and that, when you returned, the body of your father in law was no

17 longer there?

18 A. No, no.

19 Q. Okay. Please tell what happened?

20 A. Not on the following day. I went further on, trying to find

21 somebody who would help me to bury my father-in-law. I was naive. I was

22 still hopeful. I thought something could be done and that this was not a

23 fully blown war but it was. I was stopped in another village and they

24 implored with me not to go back to my house. I spent the night there.

25 There were refugees in the forest. I inquired about my daughter-in-law.

Page 10915

1 Nobody could tell me anything. And when I returned to see my

2 father-in-law's body, that was on the 16th, the refugees who were gathered

3 there wanted to go back home but then they were taken to Capljina. One of

4 them went to see my neighbour and she told me that she had seen my

5 daughter-in-law and my son and that she was crying but they could not

6 promise her that they could take them with -- take her with them because

7 she had a very young baby with her and the road was very long. I was

8 comfortable to hear that she was alive and relatively well.

9 Q. What happened to your father-in-law's body? Do you know?

10 A. I returned again at dusk. I sneaked in and I didn't find the

11 body, and I didn't know what had happened to the body. I learned in the

12 month of August, I don't know when exactly, when I crossed the forest, I

13 believe that it was around the 1st of August when I crossed over to

14 Blagaj.

15 Q. What did you learn then about the body?

16 A. I learned that he had been buried, that Muharem [as interpreted]

17 had been buried, that he was buried in the cemetery, that a neighbour --

18 actually it was allegedly the police who had ordered that him and another

19 neighbour, who had been killed in Lokva, some 1200 metres from our house,

20 to be buried in the cemetery and allegedly this had been ordered by the

21 police. Maybe two or three men who had still not been expelled did that

22 because they were the ones who were ordered to bury the bodies.

23 Q. Witness, is it correct that your father in law's body was never

24 exhumed and that an autopsy was never carried out on him, to your

25 knowledge?

Page 10916

1 A. Yes. It is true that there was never an autopsy carried out.

2 Q. Finally, Witness, you mentioned that you eventually went to Blagaj

3 in August. Is this after -- did you make your own way to Blagaj after

4 spending about 17 days in the forest? Is that correct?

5 A. Once I realised that my father-in-law's body wasn't there, I went

6 to Lokva again hoping to find somebody in the upper hamlet because there

7 was nobody in the lower hamlet. They told me that there were people in

8 two houses, they were waiting to carry some more of their stuff and they

9 told me there were people in the forest. I joined those people in the

10 forest. Later on, maybe seven days or so later, we were informed that we

11 should all surrender in Lokva, where Sosa had been killed. However,

12 whatever men went there were arrested, women were expelled through

13 Capljina and taken, I don't know where, to various places. I had learned

14 that. I was afraid. I didn't want to go there. I didn't want to do

15 that. I had my sister-in-law in Pijesci. Some women who hailed from

16 Lokva told me to go there. I spent seven days there. I'm maybe talking

17 too fast or too much. And then they discovered that civilians were hiding

18 there and soldiers came and expelled those people in Jasenica and Vucetina

19 [phoen]. And able-bodied men were all arrested and taken to prison. But

20 there were no able-bodied men among us, there were only some elderly. And

21 only from there was I taken together with a group who had not surrendered

22 through the forest. And around the 1st of August we arrived in Blagaj.

23 Q. Thank you, witness.

24 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, the Prosecution will not be showing any

25 documents to the witness, thank you. No further questions.

Page 10917

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kruger. It is

2 the turn of the Defence teams who is going to start off?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, we

4 have no questions. Thank you very much, Madam.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Next?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just have two or

9 three questions but just for purposes of clarification. I'll get through

10 them very quickly.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacevic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Madam.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. I am Defence counsel for General Praljak. I have a few questions

15 for you related to what you've just told us.

16 A. Go ahead, please.

17 Q. Thank you. Just to fill in certain gaps, I think certain things

18 remained a little unclear. For the record, on page 12, line 22, you were

19 talking about -- it's the part of your testimony when you were asked about

20 the 11th of July 1993, the soldiers surrounded the village and it said in

21 the transcript that they had HV insignia. My first question is this: Did

22 you see the insignia on their uniforms?

23 A. Sometimes, not always, sometimes they would have one insignia,

24 sometimes none at all, sometimes it said HV, sometimes it said HVO. I

25 cannot guarantee who they were, where they were from. I couldn't tell you

Page 10918

1 anything about that.

2 Q. All right. Fine but on that day, the 11th of July, when they

3 surrounded the village, can you claim that they had HV or HVO insignia or

4 you don't really know and can't say precisely on that particular occasion

5 what insignia they had?

6 A. That's precisely it. HV. Perhaps two of them had HV insignia. I

7 didn't know them. They were unknown to me. And I wasn't able to follow

8 them or anything like that because I was going to take a change of

9 clothing to my husband so I was in hurry to get there so I can't say who

10 they were. I really don't know who they were. We were just very

11 frightened that's all.

12 Q. Yes, of course Madam, but tell me, you knew that from your area, a

13 lot of people - mostly Croats but Muslims, too - early in 1992 and at the

14 end of 1991, in fact, went to Croatia, and that they fought in the

15 Croatian army there against the Serb aggressor. There were people like

16 that in your village, were there not?

17 A. Yes, I heard about that. I don't know about from my village but I

18 heard about that generally.

19 Q. And what about the surrounding villages, from the surrounding

20 villages?

21 A. The surround villages were what can I tell you, I know who came to

22 my house, when the HVO and -- when they were all members of the HVO, when

23 they hadn't separated yet, and when they fought as one army. And there

24 was one person in the HVO that I know about and defended our area from the

25 Yugoslav army, the Jugo army, and he even came to my house. And then he

Page 10919

1 left and he went to work in Croatia. I think he was seriously wounded at

2 Skabrnja. I know that too and he's a very serious invalid now.

3 Q. Yes, but before that, before the HVO, which included Muslims and

4 Croats, before they started to defend themselves from the Serbs in your

5 area - you said that you heard of cases like this - some would go to

6 Croatia and were included in the Croatian army fighting that same

7 aggressor, the Jugo Serbs?

8 A. Yes, I did hear about that but I can't say whether anybody from my

9 village went. We didn't have any contact with people like that so I don't

10 know.

11 Q. All right. But you agree that that was how it was?

12 A. I have to say that I don't know. Perhaps there were people from

13 my area, too, but I don't know about that. I know that there were

14 Croatians, people who were of Croat ethnicity, they would turn their heads

15 away from us. I don't know why. I even heard that they went to undergo

16 some sort of training but once again I can't claim that myself because I

17 only heard about that.

18 Q. Did you hear about store gist of there kind to the effect that

19 when the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina broke out and when the Jugo-Serbian

20 army started taking control of eastern Herzegovina, that some people from

21 Croatia, from Bosnia-Herzegovina, returned to defend their villages? Did

22 you hear about that?

23 A. Yes, they did.

24 Q. Thank you. Now another query that I'd like to clarify: You

25 described the tragic event when your father-in-law was killed. You

Page 10920

1 explained that to us in detail. I would just like to ask you specifically

2 whether at any point in time -- or let me start again. You told us that

3 you heard this whole event, you couldn't see it because you were hidden in

4 the shed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you ever see any insignia on the people who were there?

7 A. I didn't see the people. I just heard them. And I claim that

8 they were soldiers. Now, whether it was just the HVO or other soldiers, I

9 can't say.

10 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to ask you whether you had seen them?

11 A. No. But might I be allowed to add that later on I saw, and I was

12 looking from a sheltered place, that there were the HVO who stormed into

13 the shed behind my son's house, which wasn't on fire, and they threw a

14 lamb or something inside and I know that that's what the soldiers did and

15 they left very quickly towards Domanovici. All I know is that they were

16 wearing uniforms.

17 Q. So they stole a lamb?

18 A. Well, that wasn't important, as if a lamb was important.

19 Q. Well, you said that one of them was called Ivica?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Now, for the Court -- you know that, I know that, but I'm not sure

22 that the Judges will realise that because they are not from our parts but

23 let's explain this to the Trial Chamber. Is Ivica a very typical,

24 frequent Croatian name in your area?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10921

1 Q. For purposes of illustration, how many Ivicas can you remember?

2 Do you know three, five, ten, 15?

3 A. Well, in my area I know this one Ivica, but I don't claim, I

4 didn't see, but I assume --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop, let's move into private

6 session because it's a borderline case here.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 10922

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

2 Mr. President.


4 Q. In your statement you mention that later on, after that event, but

5 it's not quite clear how much later, anyway, after the event, you say as

6 regards the death of my father-in-law, and I'll skip the name here, the

7 Croats, probably neighbours, claimed that he was killed because he

8 attacked HVO soldiers with a pick fork [as interpreted]?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Let's take it step by step. I'm just reading what it says here in

11 your statement. Then I'll ask you the question. Any way that he was

12 killed because he attacked a HVO in this way, that he abused them, and

13 said some ugly words, I don't want to repeat them. And then you say, I am

14 sure that my father-in-law did not behave in that way, nor did he utter

15 those words. So my question to you is as follows: This mentioning of a

16 pick fork or whatever, who told you about that?

17 A. When we returned, when I say returned I mean in 2001, someone from

18 the neighbourhood, a Croat, I heard a woman, she is no longer alive,

19 that's what she said, that they had done that, the Koljiceni [phoen], but

20 that -- and that if he had not resisted they wouldn't have killed him.

21 But I heard, and I claim this with full responsibility, he was no threat

22 at all. He had absolutely no strength left in him and I'm sure he didn't

23 try anything, and that's why I claim that this whole thing about the

24 pitchfork and everything was not true.

25 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to clear that up.

Page 10923

1 There might be a mistake in the statement, in your written

2 statement, because it says at one point that you said that both the houses

3 that you mentioned, the one that you lived in and that other house owned

4 by your son, that they were mined after the Dayton agreement. Is that

5 true?

6 A. Yes, that's true. And I can tell you more about that.

7 Q. I just wanted to ask you whether that's what you --

8 A. Yes, that is true. It was after that.

9 Q. So that was in 1995?

10 A. Yes, we went to tour the area and it had been blown up.

11 Q. Thank you, Madam. No further explanations are necessary. We are

12 just looking at the period of the -- mentioned in the indictment. So

13 thank you, Madam.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak?

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no

16 questions, but there seems to be a slight error in the transcript. I

17 think it was on page 1615. The lady said that her father-if-law was

18 buried in the harem which means the Muslim cemetery whereas in the

19 transcript it says Muharem which is a name. A Muslim name. It should be

20 Harem meaning cemetery.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for giving

22 us that explanation. Next Defence team?

23 MR. STEWART: I just need 30 seconds to say something positive.

24 You know I like to do that. We -- the Petkovic Defence indicated to the

25 Prosecution this morning those areas where we would be relaxed about them

Page 10924

1 leading and going quickly and those areas where we were sensitive and

2 requested more caution. We would like to express our appreciation. The

3 response was excellent and we can see from the clock how effectively we've

4 proceeded. It doesn't go anything to the contends of the evidence but as

5 far as the procedure is concerned, we do express our professional

6 appreciation. But we have no questions by the way. I said I needed only

7 30 seconds or so.

8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions,

9 thank you, Your Honour, no.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

11 MR. MURPHY: We have no questions, Your Honour, thank you.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE MINDUA: Madam witness, I'd just like an explanation. In

14 your written statement, when speaking about the death of your father in

15 law, you said that you heard the noise of a military vehicle. Did you

16 just hear the noise and not see the vehicle? I think that's what you

17 said. Now, this military vehicle, which army did it belong to or which

18 unit? Can you help us out there perhaps?

19 A. I heard but I did not see it, the houses that were set on fire

20 previously, the people who happened to be down there still, the ones that

21 hadn't been expelled yet or hadn't escaped or were still in hiding, they

22 were set fire to at Lokva, they told us that the -- they were APCs and

23 that the houses were being set on fire from these APCs, and as you could

24 hear this -- a lot of noise and as that was the same day, I drew the

25 conclusion that it was the APC because there was a lot of noise. It made

Page 10925

1 a lot of noise. But I didn't dare look myself. But I heard this from the

2 people and I assumed that it was the same APC that burnt the houses.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, can you distinguish

4 between the noise of -- made by a tractor and by an APC, an armoured

5 personnel carrier? Can you distinguish between those sounds and noises?

6 A. Yes, yes. I did. But at that point in time, I was very

7 depressed, so I don't know and didn't know then and don't know now whether

8 it was in fact an APC or whether it was the caterpillar vehicle, the

9 tracked vehicle, or some other vehicle. But it was a very strong vehicle

10 if I can put it that way. I can't describe that terrible noise but, no, I

11 didn't see it. I didn't dare look. I can't distinguish -- I can't tell

12 you what it was exactly but it was either an APC or some other vehicle but

13 it was a very strong vehicle that took part in setting fire to the houses.

14 MR. KRUGER: No further questions, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

16 Madam, thank you for coming. I'd like to thank you on behalf of

17 the Judges for coming in to testify as a Prosecution witness. I wish you

18 all the best and bon voyage back home.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are now going to take our 20

21 minute break and reconvene with the second witness.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

24 [Closed session]

25 (redacted)

Page 10926











11 Pages 10926-10992 redacted. Closed session















Page 10993

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.40 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of

6 December, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.